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Speaker 1: I want to welcome in. I'm Doug Godly Man. This

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Speaker 1: is all ball um you when you when you have

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Speaker 1: my job, My job has been kind of sweet. You know.

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Speaker 1: I've tried to do a really good job of having

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Speaker 1: perspective and what happens this time of year. And there'll

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Speaker 1: be lots of people who are listening to this pod

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Speaker 1: who are in my profession in broadcasting or in you know,

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Speaker 1: in radio or in television, but in basketball, we all

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Speaker 1: do this thing. We get our schedules and then we

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Speaker 1: complain about it, right, we get our schedules like I

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Speaker 1: didn't have enough games that Look, I wonder what games

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Speaker 1: that guy got. You know, there are some places in

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Speaker 1: which the best analysts get to pick their games, and

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Speaker 1: so you're just kind of at their mercy and they're

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Speaker 1: gonna wait and see and you just you get but

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Speaker 1: you lose perspective on like, hey, um, this is two

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Speaker 1: thousand twenty two. I've actually really done this. For my

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Speaker 1: first games, I called we're twenty one years ago, right,

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Speaker 1: that's crazy. And my first you know slate of like

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Speaker 1: eight games with two thousand to two thousand three, so

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Speaker 1: that's like nineteen years of doing a full slate of them.

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Speaker 1: I'll be doing games on Stadium, which is a digital

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Speaker 1: online and occasionally it's over the air at some of

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Speaker 1: those UH Valley's sports stations. And I'll also be doing

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Speaker 1: them for Fox, And I'll do radio games for Compass

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Speaker 1: and radio games for Westwood One. And if anybody else

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Speaker 1: wants to do games, they'll send me some stuff and

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Speaker 1: I'll do games for them too. And it's and I'm

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Speaker 1: starting to put together a schedule, and it's I'm really

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Speaker 1: really excited, really excited, just because you know, I've I've

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Speaker 1: done the Final Four, I've done the n s A Tournament.

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Speaker 1: Those are the best. I'm not even being secretive. I

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Speaker 1: wish I was still doing them. I don't currently do them.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the future holds of i'll ever

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Speaker 1: do them again. But it was the best, the people

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Speaker 1: who work with the best, the games are the best,

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Speaker 1: the focus on the best. I just it's amazing. But

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that I'm gonna sit there like I've

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Speaker 1: gotten to the point where now I'm still happy just

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Speaker 1: doing games, you know, going out and seeing people. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at my schedule in November, and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have oral Roberts in Colorado State, I have UH,

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Speaker 1: Nevada and San Francisco. I have U c l A,

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Speaker 1: and U and l V. I have St. Louis and Boise.

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Speaker 1: Those are those are just like the first four that

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Speaker 1: I have. So I get to see U. C l A,

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Speaker 1: who's ranked number two in the country. I'll get to

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Speaker 1: see you and l V and UH and uh you know,

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Speaker 1: Kevin Krueger get a chance to coach against the top

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Speaker 1: ten team. Get to see or Roberts, Paul Mills and

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Speaker 1: what their team did last year in the n c

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Speaker 1: A term against Colorado State, the favorite to win the

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Speaker 1: Mountain West Tournament, Nevada and Grant Shorefield is a tremendous

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Speaker 1: point guard transfer from Whichita State. And uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I get to see St. Louis and Boise and San Francisco.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's gonna be. That's just the first

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Speaker 1: eight teams that I'll see, So I do think I

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Speaker 1: have some perspective. Um my guest this week is Sydney Johnson,

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Speaker 1: a Sydney um in covering Fairfield and covering Princeton when

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Speaker 1: he coached there. He played with friends of mine, was

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Speaker 1: a great player at Princeton. But more than anything, Like,

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Speaker 1: the great thing about going and doing games is the

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Speaker 1: people that you meet and the perspectives that you get,

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Speaker 1: and you just you meet interesting people. Like That's kind

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Speaker 1: of what life's about, right, the places you go, the

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Speaker 1: people you meet, the foods you eat. I had this,

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Speaker 1: I had this great dinner in finished the finish the sentence.

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Speaker 1: Sidney Johnson's a good friend of mine. Um, he's a

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Speaker 1: wonderful man, super educated guy, not just because he went

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Speaker 1: to Princeton, but like dad was a professor, and I

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Speaker 1: thought we'd catch up and talk about, among other things,

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be fired at Fairfield, a job

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Speaker 1: that he left his alma mater, Princeton four. So there's

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Speaker 1: some things he said in here that he hasn't articulated

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Speaker 1: publicly before. Some things I've said in here that I

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Speaker 1: haven't articulated publicly before. I hope you enjoy it. Here's

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Speaker 1: Sidney Johnson, my guests this week on All Ball. So

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Speaker 1: let's start to high school, Okay, because I remember there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of things I remember about before you went

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Speaker 1: to Princeton. Okay, I think, did you grow up in

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Speaker 1: Minnesota and then moved to Baltimore at the end of

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Speaker 1: high school. It was it back and forth. Like remind

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Speaker 1: me of the where you were living when you're high

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Speaker 1: school basketball player. Yeah, it was. It was back and forth.

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Speaker 1: So we were in Towson, Maryland. My dad was teaching

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Speaker 1: at Towson State. That's what I was called back then,

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Speaker 1: and so Kirk Lee, Chuck Lytton and those guys, uh

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Speaker 1: Scott true x Um or Terry true x. Scott was

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Speaker 1: his son. So we were there, uh and uh and

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Speaker 1: and I went there ninth grade. I was in Towson,

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Speaker 1: and then he took a job in Minnesota for a

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Speaker 1: couple of years, and then we came back. You know,

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Speaker 1: the Minnesota win as were too much, so we came back.

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Speaker 1: I did my senior year at TAUS in Catholic. What

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Speaker 1: what's your dad teach history? History, a little bit of

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Speaker 1: languages to um, but African American history. And our house

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Speaker 1: was full of books. It was crazy. I mean just

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Speaker 1: books everywhere. You know, It's interesting. When I was a

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Speaker 1: son who's twelve and last year he's you know, he's

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Speaker 1: not he doesn't he doesn't enjoy reading, doesn't enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: You know, he likes learning, he doesn't like reading, and

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Speaker 1: my dad got me to read by um he would

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Speaker 1: give me, uh like leon URIs book The Boys from

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Speaker 1: Brazil was like my first like real novel was hardcore,

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Speaker 1: but he would he would he would balance it between

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Speaker 1: like a novel and a sports book, like I remember

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Speaker 1: reading about the last year the Boston Celtics with Larry

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Speaker 1: Bird and Robert Parrish and late Dennis Johnson. Right and

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Speaker 1: now I had a I think Catfish Hunter's autobiography was

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Speaker 1: the first sports book I read. How did your did

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Speaker 1: you just naturally enjoy reading? You got all these books

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Speaker 1: on your house, your parents obviously have expectation of it.

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Speaker 1: How did how did you get to be a reader? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Well I'm I'm the the youngest of three, um and

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I just absorbed it. I kind of watched

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Speaker 1: my older brothers, my dad, like my middle brother Stephen,

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Speaker 1: who you know, in fact, every other time I talked

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Speaker 1: to my brother, he's telling me something about your brother.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't really know Greg. So I didn't know.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know how close they are. Maybe you didn't

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Speaker 1: know that, but um so Stephen, Um, Stephen did the

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Speaker 1: same as you. He kind of like he he took

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Speaker 1: to reading through like basketball books and biographies. Me. I

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Speaker 1: could read it all. You know. I wasn't like, uh

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Speaker 1: Einstein or anything, but I was just interested. Did I

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Speaker 1: would grab some of my dad's books and of my

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Speaker 1: brother's books, and it just kind of, you know, seeped in. Um,

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Speaker 1: were you when you're the youngest brother, you're really the toughest,

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Speaker 1: right because they pick I need to beat up and

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Speaker 1: I think you're usually the more usually the most advanced.

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Speaker 1: But it's an interesting dynamic. What was the dynamic like

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Speaker 1: with with with the with the kids and your family. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I think you're on is something. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was you know, my dad didn't spoil My dad raised me.

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Speaker 1: My my mom and dad divorced early. So my dad

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Speaker 1: raised me and the boys for my two brothers, and

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Speaker 1: he didn't spoil me, and neither did my brothers. So

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Speaker 1: they you know, they they kind of beat up on me,

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Speaker 1: but they loved me too, and and and protected me

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Speaker 1: against anybody else. You know. Um, I think the dynamic

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Speaker 1: for me, Um, I tell people this all the time,

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Speaker 1: for better or worse, I watched them a lot, and

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Speaker 1: I learned from what they did well, and I learned

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Speaker 1: from some of their mistakes and so it really kind

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Speaker 1: of helped me navigate you know, Uh, don't take on

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Speaker 1: too much that you know, Um, you can be brave here,

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Speaker 1: you can you need to sit back and cut here.

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Speaker 1: Those types of things I learned from watching my brothers

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Speaker 1: and it really benefited me, you know. And and also

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Speaker 1: just like how they tried to solve things, whether it

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Speaker 1: was you know, sometimes you had to pick the fight,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you have to talk your way through it, sometimes

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Speaker 1: you have to smooth things out. Those types of things

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Speaker 1: I learned from them as much as anything. So, Um,

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Speaker 1: what's that like for you in terms of friendships and

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Speaker 1: relationships where you're where you you built between Baltimore, Minnesota

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Speaker 1: back to Baltimore. What was that, Well, there was even

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Speaker 1: a lot more movement than that. I mean we lived

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Speaker 1: in Florida. My dad is just kind of a rolling

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Speaker 1: stone great father, but just like never really sat tight.

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Speaker 1: So Minnesota o to Maryland, Florida, Pennsylvania, Lagos, Nigeria for

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Speaker 1: two years. Um, really it was just like all over

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Speaker 1: and so you learn, you learn how to adapt quickly.

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Speaker 1: You learn that there's a lot of different ways to

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Speaker 1: do things. Um, that's the biggest thing that I learned

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Speaker 1: is like, you know, it's not just one way, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you also learned that people look a lot different

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Speaker 1: and talk a lot different but can hold on to

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Speaker 1: the same core values. And um, those types of things

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Speaker 1: open your world. And that's what I've passed along to

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Speaker 1: my kids, and I know I've tried to pass that

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Speaker 1: along to my players and really encourage them to get

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Speaker 1: outside of their comfort zoning and travel and go places. Um,

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Speaker 1: all of that is mixed into what my dad exposed

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Speaker 1: to me and my brothers. And I know he did

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Speaker 1: it intentionally. You know. He's he's kind of, like I said,

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Speaker 1: a rolling stone and uh, at a very early age, well,

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Speaker 1: and he was at you he played ball in in

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Speaker 1: the Big ten and uh at some point he left

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Speaker 1: school early and he went over to France and finished

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Speaker 1: his education there and then played in Spain. So you know,

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Speaker 1: he's tried to pass a lot of that stuff along

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Speaker 1: to us, and it's uh, it's certainly taken with me

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Speaker 1: and my brothers. Yeah, he's like a movie. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: a big time. He's he's writing a book. He's writing

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Speaker 1: a book based very much on his own life. And

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Speaker 1: it's like Doug, it's like four pages and it's uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's I'm a James Baldwin guy, and uh

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Speaker 1: some of some of the other greats, and uh, it

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Speaker 1: reminds me of some of the novels that Baldwin has

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Speaker 1: written because he's also old school. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: there's race and identity and we're traveling and uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: somebody ought to pick it up. Um, okay, so but

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Speaker 1: you're gonna go to be you? Right? And then yeah,

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Speaker 1: how did it happen when Yeah, I haven't shared this

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Speaker 1: with a ton of people. And those guys Coach Brown,

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Speaker 1: it's the head coach then, and they were they were

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Speaker 1: very gracious, but you know, stung a little bit. Um.

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Speaker 1: I I was definitely going to be you. And as

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Speaker 1: I progressed into my senior year at Tuson Catholic, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't about like getting bigger offers or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: I just didn't think that I was ready, Like I

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Speaker 1: was playing well, but I wanted to get stronger. And

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Speaker 1: then Stephen, my brothers a couple of years older, he

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Speaker 1: went to prep school and just got stronger and more ready.

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Speaker 1: So I either wanted to prep or red shirt, and uh,

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Speaker 1: I prefer I actually preferred to red Shirt, like I

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Speaker 1: wanted to go to be you and red shirt. And

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Speaker 1: that wasn't really taking with the staff and I had

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Speaker 1: I had expressed that to them after having committed. Um,

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Speaker 1: so that wasn't really taking. And it just kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, they were seeing things one way. I was

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Speaker 1: seeing another way. So at the last minute I was

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Speaker 1: able to go to Fork Union. Fletcher Eric when he

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Speaker 1: rest in peace, one of the great his people in

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Speaker 1: my in my life. Uh. Somehow, some way he took

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Speaker 1: a chance to take me late in the process. And uh,

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Speaker 1: and then that spawned a whole another year development and recruiting,

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Speaker 1: and uh, I went up at Princeton where is four games.

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Speaker 1: It's uh in Fork Union, Virginia, in the middle of nowhere.

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Speaker 1: The closest would be Charlottesville is roughly roughly in an hour,

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Speaker 1: maybe Richmond somewhere in the area. But I mean it's

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Speaker 1: literally in the woods. And we didn't get off campus

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Speaker 1: but for playing games. And it was it. Uh. It's

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Speaker 1: a military academy, right, military academy. Up at five in

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Speaker 1: the morning, wax your floor room, check at six, you know, breakfast,

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Speaker 1: six thirty and you're on your way marching and fatigues

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Speaker 1: saluting Um. I mean it was, it was real, but

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Speaker 1: that stuff was miserable. The basketball was out of this world.

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Speaker 1: And the discipline and the education, Um, it was. It

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Speaker 1: was wonderful, So great experience for me that I would

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Speaker 1: never signed up for if not for you know, the situation,

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Speaker 1: my recruiting situation. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports

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Speaker 1: talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows

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Speaker 1: at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live.

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Speaker 1: That that was like the golden era of Princeton basketball, right,

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Speaker 1: it was because because theydn't actually beat Georgetown, but that

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Speaker 1: kind of solidified, like what was happening at Princeton's like

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Speaker 1: a change in in basketball. What's your first memories of

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Speaker 1: arriving on campus? First memory? Um, took official visit really late.

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Speaker 1: They were actually setting up for reunions, which is a

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Speaker 1: huge deal at Princeton, like absolutely huge. But the campus

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Speaker 1: looks kind of funky. They have all these tents set up,

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Speaker 1: there's a decent amount of bever consumption and parties and

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Speaker 1: things that they're getting prepared for, and uh, the campus

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Speaker 1: it doesn't quite quite look as beautiful as it normally does,

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Speaker 1: but I loved it. I was like, I was like, man,

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Speaker 1: this this is really nice. Chris Mooney, head coach at Richmond.

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Speaker 1: He uh he hosted me on the on the visit um,

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Speaker 1: he was writing his junior paper. He was put submitting

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Speaker 1: that it's like a thirty page paper you gotta turn

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Speaker 1: in junior year. My my entire official visit was like

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Speaker 1: going to meals with him and the cooking staff and

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Speaker 1: then watching Chris Mooney type up his junior paper, and

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Speaker 1: and somehow I was sold on playing for the Tigers.

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Speaker 1: And then I walked in the gym the first day

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Speaker 1: for just like open run. You know, you know, like

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Speaker 1: every now every day now these days, you know, everybody's

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Speaker 1: like ready to go. We had like a month and

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Speaker 1: a half of just hooping, just pick up before we

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Speaker 1: can start official practice. And Doug is like, there's like

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Speaker 1: thirty guys in the gym, you know, it was like

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Speaker 1: like guys from returning guys, but then also like all

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Speaker 1: kinds of freshmen and you know, like came in with

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Speaker 1: a class of like ten or eleven dudes, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? And uh, I just had to kind

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Speaker 1: of work my way through trying to find a spot

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Speaker 1: on the team and UH and somehow it worked out

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Speaker 1: when when you're playing pick up at Princeton, are guys

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Speaker 1: just hooping or they running cuts like it? It's always

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Speaker 1: it's always been the My My issue with Princeton style

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Speaker 1: teams is while it develops all the different attributes of

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Speaker 1: what you need to be a great basket player, there

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Speaker 1: are times in which guys struggle to function kind of

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Speaker 1: in freelance. And so I'm just wondering, like what what

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Speaker 1: that was like in terms of the just to pick

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Speaker 1: up all. Yeah, I want to talk more about that,

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Speaker 1: um with you about that because I agree with UH,

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Speaker 1: and I'm really motivated by that type of delivering the

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Speaker 1: game these days because I think everything's going towards positionalist

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Speaker 1: basketball obviously, but more decision making that I think we

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Speaker 1: need to allow our players to have when we're quote

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Speaker 1: training them. I don't think that's going on enough. But

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Speaker 1: at Princeton, yeah, we were, we were. We were whooping

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Speaker 1: the way you hoop at Princeton, which is backdoor cuts,

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Speaker 1: lots of threes, dribble handoffs. Um, there was there's transition.

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Speaker 1: I mean you're going there's advantage play and all that

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Speaker 1: fast break. Um, but if somebody doesn't have anything, it's

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Speaker 1: quickly into you know, five out and cutting backdoor and

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Speaker 1: not a lot of ball screens at least at that time.

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Speaker 1: So it was a you had to get kind of

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Speaker 1: uh indoctrinated into how that was, how how they function

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Speaker 1: there and um. And if you didn't, you you kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, you didn't find your way on the court,

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Speaker 1: or you would you wouldn't win because you'd be playing

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Speaker 1: ball and four other guys, especially up a clashman be

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Speaker 1: looking at you like what are you what are you doing?

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Speaker 1: You know, and so you you like like on some

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Speaker 1: level it's like leading to balance of the two, right,

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Speaker 1: because you go to you go to a college gym

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Speaker 1: now a lot of times and it's just like five out,

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Speaker 1: somebody comes and set the ball screen and then you

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Speaker 1: shoot and then you get back on defense and it's terrible.

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Speaker 1: So there's a there's a balance of the two. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing, just guessing. I remember my first month at

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Speaker 1: Notre Dame practicing and I was terrible. And I was

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Speaker 1: terrible because I just I've never really been thinking I

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Speaker 1: played a good high school program, high level au program,

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Speaker 1: like you think you've done all these things in the

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Speaker 1: sport and you really haven't. Um Like I thought i'd

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Speaker 1: run a motion offense. Now like you got six ten

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Speaker 1: seven f screening you and you feel like your lung

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Speaker 1: gets detached, and I just I couldn't. I couldn't guard anybody.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't. I'm wondering, what what's that experience? Like, you're

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Speaker 1: a highly touted guy, you go to preps, you're not young,

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Speaker 1: your body's more mature than a traditional freshman. What what

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Speaker 1: are those practices like in your freshman year? So you

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Speaker 1: you you hit on it, Doug is, I wasn't a

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Speaker 1: true freshman that that year was huge for me. I

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Speaker 1: played at the four Union. We lost maybe two games.

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Speaker 1: One of them was against m c I, which was

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Speaker 1: a big time prep program at the time. UM So

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Speaker 1: I played with Harrod Dean who went to Virginia, Murray

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Speaker 1: Code who went to Clemson, um Rick Edwards went to Richmond.

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Speaker 1: Chris Polliums was that Texas A and m forbid. Um

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Speaker 1: you know, we we we had a really good team.

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Speaker 1: So when I went to Princeton, I wasn't the best

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Speaker 1: player on the floor, but I wasn't like without knowing it.

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Speaker 1: I was just like hooping and like, uh, I wasn't

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Speaker 1: shook or you know, there were guys at Princeton who

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Speaker 1: weren't better than clearly weren't better than the guys that

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Speaker 1: played was last year, by the way, By the way,

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Speaker 1: I Harold Dean was like one of my heroes. That

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Speaker 1: guy had the best that he had the strongest arms.

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Speaker 1: I remember, like I I just I remember because I

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Speaker 1: almost went to Virginia and I forgot who the point

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Speaker 1: guard was before him, but I think I want to say,

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Speaker 1: somebody got hurt so he got to play like as

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Speaker 1: a freshman. I remember watching huh he played it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember either, but he played like as a

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Speaker 1: freshman like right away, and I was like, who is

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Speaker 1: that dude? That's I like that guy right And that

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Speaker 1: was I had this between the campus. I had infatuation

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Speaker 1: with the campus and the history of the campus and

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. And so like my my list, I

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Speaker 1: remember my after my junior year was like Florida Virginia

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Speaker 1: and then like mid major or whatever, and I understanding

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Speaker 1: cowforuny people like what do you like about Virginia? I

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Speaker 1: was like Harold Dean, like Harold Dean, I want to

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Speaker 1: play like that. He's a bad boy. He was the

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Speaker 1: best player in the gym. Literally every day we played.

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Speaker 1: Every day, he was like the best player, and some

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Speaker 1: of us would give him a little bit of run,

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Speaker 1: a little but there wasn't a day he walked out

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Speaker 1: of the gym where he was he didn't play the

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Speaker 1: best and so so that just helped me at Princeton

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Speaker 1: where yes, you have Chris Mooney and Mike Brennan, those

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Speaker 1: were my two senior year captains. So Mike obviously head

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Speaker 1: coaching American. They're running stuff and all that, but they're

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Speaker 1: not they're not doing chin ups on the rim. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're not stripping you. And that's the stuff that was

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Speaker 1: going on with Moral Code and Harold Deane and those guys,

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Speaker 1: and so I just felt like, you know, I could

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Speaker 1: I could fit in. Um. What was Karil like to you?

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Speaker 1: He was scary? He was he was scary. He was scary.

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Speaker 1: And it's not fair because that's the first thing that

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Speaker 1: came to mind as a freshman, but that's true. And

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Speaker 1: then I realized he was brilliant. So it's first the

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Speaker 1: fear of just you know, he is a commanding presence.

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Speaker 1: You know whose gym it is, you know whose team.

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Speaker 1: You know when you make a mistake, um ad nausea,

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Speaker 1: and like he you know, he's gonna be in you

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Speaker 1: and in everybody, and it's gonna be done a certain way.

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Speaker 1: And and then you get over that because my dad,

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Speaker 1: you know, strict with us. You get over the delivery

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Speaker 1: and you understand why and the purpose. And oh, by

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Speaker 1: the way, this is helping me. And I'm getting better

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Speaker 1: in ways that I and and and he's also challenging me,

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Speaker 1: like in ways that are like real or they're accurate,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I didn't have a left hand,

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Speaker 1: so like there's nothing like So when he tells you

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Speaker 1: about it every day, he ain't lying, you know, And

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Speaker 1: so you either stat or you run from it. And

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Speaker 1: my family we faced it. So then I had a

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Speaker 1: coach that I was going to face it. So after

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00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,479
Speaker 1: the fear, it was the brilliance and literally just opened

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00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 1: up the game for me how to see more, how

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Speaker 1: to be a winner. Thinking you came from a good program.

390
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: I came from a good program both high school and

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Speaker 1: prep school. I know what winning is about. And he

392
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Speaker 1: took it to another level, you know, So these things,

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Speaker 1: these lessons and how to see the game just made

394
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Speaker 1: me tougher and wiser and just just changed my life

395
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Speaker 1: from a basketball perspective. Um, it is interesting to fear

396
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Speaker 1: thing because we all are scared of That was what

397
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Speaker 1: was kind of missing with John McCloud at Utter Dame.

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Speaker 1: He was a great man, classy um. You know, he

399
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Speaker 1: had his own idiot syncrasies, and he wanted to treat

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Speaker 1: all of us as men. He wouldn't call you out

401
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Speaker 1: from the rest of the team. It was a very

402
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Speaker 1: kind of professional thing. Like you get back from a

403
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Speaker 1: game and there'll be a flashing red light on your

404
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Speaker 1: phone and you'd have an appointment to come see in

405
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Speaker 1: the next day, and then we closed the door. Now

406
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: he'd give you the business, but not kind of everybody else.

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Speaker 1: And he's sudden like that was the opposite, Like it's

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Speaker 1: you know and I And part of it is how

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Speaker 1: I was coached by my dad, how I was coached

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Speaker 1: by Andy Grown, my high school coach. But also I

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Speaker 1: just think young men at that age, I kind of

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Speaker 1: think you needed um. But I also know that that

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Speaker 1: and and this gets to your most recent experience. Times

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Speaker 1: have kind of changed. I think I think part of

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Speaker 1: it is young people have always pushed back against you know, authority.

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Speaker 1: It's just now I think the noise is louder because

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Speaker 1: of social media, because you have people, I think in

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Speaker 1: the media who kind of helped amplify it a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But I guess the question is, can you still establish

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Speaker 1: that level of respect bordering on fear in two thousand

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Speaker 1: twenty one and beyond or is or are those days

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Speaker 1: simply gone, long gone, long going There's there's there's no

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Speaker 1: way you can. You can establish the respect, the trust,

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Speaker 1: and you can get on guys, uh when they trust

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Speaker 1: and respect that you care about them. Okay, And this

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Speaker 1: is not to take away from from Coach Carell or

427
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: any other old school approach, but that wasn't baked into

428
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: that equation. It was like, you're coming to play and

429
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: to graduate and to get better. So here here's what

430
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: it is, you know what I mean. They didn't have

431
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: to necessarily and prove, they didn't have to hug you,

432
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: they didn't have to love you up. It was like,

433
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: this is what the relationship is at that time and

434
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,479
Speaker 1: in those times, and now, um, you have to you know,

435
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: everyone talks about culture. You know why has come up

436
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: so much, and it's it's borderline nauseating. Is because you

437
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: have to have this investment of like proving to people

438
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: what you're about. And that really wasn't in the dynamic

439
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: of sports stay when you and I were playing, and

440
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: certainly in my my father's time, you know, where you

441
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: had as a coach, me improve what you're about. You

442
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: just on the coach, you're the player. Let's get it on.

443
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: And now it's now, here's what my culture is about.

444
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: And why you want to get you know, why you

445
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 1: want to get it on, why you want to develop

446
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: here with me. That's this whole culture thing. And I'm

447
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: not I don't have an issue with it, but I

448
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: don't know if people understand that that's why we're where

449
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: we are now and why every coach now talks about culture. Yeah,

450
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: it's definitely a buzzword. And um, I always thought the

451
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: culture was really the players. It's the it's the it's

452
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 1: the people you bring in, you know. And um and

453
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: and if you if you bring in the right kids

454
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: you got, you're not gonna have any problems, you know.

455
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: And and and guys can guys will weed them out.

456
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: You know. It's one of the things that everybody does

457
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: on visits. I just I also find the visits have changed.

458
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: Now they're not as it's it's not just hey, go

459
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: take take this guy for the weekend, then you can

460
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: come back and report back. Like now they have to

461
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: take pictures in the uniform and there's all this tweet

462
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: stuff out and there's there's all this like celebration of it,

463
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: and it's it's over the top. Whereas like I can

464
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: remember at Oaklahma State that we would come, we would

465
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: we were like the the coliseum with the gladiators, but

466
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: the thumb up or thumb down, and we said that

467
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: guy and US coach that was it, that that was it,

468
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: and um um, you know I think that. But I

469
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: think it's it's I know it's I have coaches can

470
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: establish culture and can do a good job, and there

471
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: are certain guys that do an amazing job. But I

472
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: think a lot of it comes down to the the

473
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: kids they bring in. And I mean, like you go

474
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 1: see a Villanova practice and you're like, that's the most

475
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: amazing thing I've ever seen. Yeah, they're incredible. They're literally

476
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: like I I don't that's amazing, Like they're all and

477
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: but it's it's been built up over time part of

478
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 1: its consistency. I think that's probably the hardest thing in

479
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: basketball now is there's just no consistency because guys transfer whenever.

480
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: And I'm a I'm a transfer, but like the amount

481
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: of the volume of transfers is so crazy. But let

482
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: me let me interject just there with with Jay Wright,

483
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: because he's obviously a Hall of Famer and he's done

484
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: all these wonderful things. But there was a time at

485
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,719
Speaker 1: Villanova between his early success of like Allen Ray and

486
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: those guys and then the more recent success the number

487
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: one warding class right, and that that that team was terrible.

488
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: People forget that, though, Doug. They forget that they were

489
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: looking at coach right sideways, and it's like, but he

490
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,239
Speaker 1: learned from that, and his staff learned from that. And

491
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: I'm not saying people shouldn't get fired and change, but

492
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that consistency also comes with some consistency

493
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: in terms of the people behind the scenes who are saying,

494
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: let let them ride it out and see where this goes.

495
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: And he set a certain bar that came down a bit,

496
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: and he corrected that and got programmed kids. And now

497
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: there's like you know, no looking back. Okay, Jesus, you know, okay,

498
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: you are kind of guys, right and they it's really

499
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: and and and I we actually I've actually tracked this

500
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: um like Oklahoma State, same thing happened over the Oak

501
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: four Final four and then they had the number one

502
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: recruiting class the country. And then you know, some of

503
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: those guys don't show up. Some of those guys are overrated.

504
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: You know, it just it it ends up hurting your program.

505
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: Happened to Georgia Tech when they went to same year

506
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: they went the national championship game, right, and and they

507
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: were never the same because you can now you can

508
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: recruit above your normal level, but they're not your kind

509
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: of guys. You don't think your program and how you've

510
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: always you've always rolled. Um, where were you when you

511
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: got the fair Felled job? I was, I mean literally

512
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: where I was there to take me through the fair

513
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: Felled job when it came out. Yeah, so I was

514
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: at the final four. So I Um, Princeton was was

515
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: wonderful to me, you know, and and uh and still

516
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: is to this day. I mean I have friends there

517
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: and all that stuff, and yet I have no regrets

518
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: that I took the fair Field job because I wasn't sure,

519
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: uh frankly, what the commitment was going to be at

520
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: Princeton and Doug. I just I gotta get this stuff.

521
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be at my home and mater

522
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: and not know that we weren't committed to being successful.

523
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: Like like every loss that we had was like like

524
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: painful for me, you know what I mean. I felt

525
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: like the weight of not want to let my teammates down,

526
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: let alone my team and my staff. I'm talking about

527
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: like my teammates that I played with, like people who

528
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: helped me get to Princeton, professors. Like, so when we lost,

529
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: it was like it was borderline like depression, you know.

530
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: I was like struggling, and then when we would win,

531
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: it would just be relief. It wouldn't be the opposite

532
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: of it, of the dicussion. It would just be like, Okay,

533
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: I can exhale for today, so you know that you

534
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: can ask my wife Like I really it was a

535
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: wonderful experience for me. I wasn't sure what the commitment

536
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: was like. There were changes in the league. Cornell goes

537
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: to this week sixteen, Tommy Amber Chris coming in. You know,

538
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: there's all, and I'm like, what they also Harvard also changed,

539
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: you know, now you get into the nitty gritty, that's okay.

540
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: So that's what we can that's what we can do here.

541
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: We can get so so I was like, what are

542
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: we about? And I'll just say I wasn't. I wasn't

543
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: blown away with what I was cheering back when I

544
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: was act. But the but the part about putting the pressure,

545
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: it's it's a really interesting it's it's it's interesting thing.

546
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: So you know, I got a chance to interview from

547
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: my alt monitor um and I remember coming home and

548
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: or I'm talking to my wife at the time and

549
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: I and she's like, you don't want that, you don't

550
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: want that, And I said, I said, what are you

551
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: talking about? All I've ever wanted is to walk on

552
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: that sideline, like literally like the crushing thing about playing

553
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: at Oaklhom State for me, And I've never told anybody

554
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: this was. I used to sit there and go like,

555
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: I know I could be on that sideline, but I

556
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: know it's Sean's job, and so you know I would

557
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: have to sit and be as assistant and then if

558
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: he ever left, like that was that was the mentality.

559
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: So it was really ah, I didn't allow it to

560
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: become kind of a realistic thought, right, I ain't getting

561
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: that job if you want to get and and that

562
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: honestly was one of the things that pushed me away

563
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: from coaching. Then Sean got the job. By the time,

564
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: like I was kind of on the outside of the

565
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: family because I said I didn't think coach should be

566
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: able to keep the job because he had a d U.

567
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: I thought it was the I thought it was the

568
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: honest thing to say, and it didn't go over well,

569
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: not with coach but with other people. But the point was,

570
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about. Because her her thing

571
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: was like, look, if it goes bad, you can't go home,

572
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: like that's your your basketball home, you can't go home again,

573
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: and um, if everything becomes super awkward. I was like, yeah,

574
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: it's also super awkward if you don't get the job.

575
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: So whatever, there's all different levels of awkward. So you

576
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,719
Speaker 1: felt that, you felt that because that's the other thing

577
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: is like we when we lost in the Elite eight,

578
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: my last game, when you know, like I remember not

579
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: feeling bad for myself, but feeling I let coach down,

580
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: if I let all of us down, and when I've

581
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: been successful. It's it's helped all of us when our

582
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: program is successful. Now we take great joy in it

583
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: because you don't want to turn on your TV and

584
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: your team's in last place or whatever. Um, so I

585
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: get that. So you you did that? Was that that

586
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: was part of the equation and leaving your all modern

587
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: for Fairfield. Yes, level of commitment and you know, I

588
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: mean like, look, that's the reality to it at the time,

589
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: and you can, I know, covering it may be more

590
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: difficult for you. I actually I don't know if you

591
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: know this. So Harvard one their first n c A

592
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: term the game when Tommy was there right to beat

593
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: New Mexico, and late in the game it was obviously

594
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna win, and so I started talking about the

595
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: what's the term, uh for your recruiting class in terms

596
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: of your average number. It's the academic index academic index.

597
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: And so what I said was like, look, this is

598
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: this win is not just about Tommy. It's about the

599
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: commitment of the university and lowering the academic index just

600
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: so they can be competitive with the rest of the lead. Right,

601
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: And I said, it's not only they're bringing in Duco's right,

602
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: it's it's you're just making it fair and opening up

603
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: opportunities for people, and look at how how this team looks. Right.

604
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: So the next day, in between game, the first day

605
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: and the second ADI, you get to meet one on

606
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: one with the players first, and they were the coaches.

607
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: So I get a text in the morning like, hey,

608
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: great job last night from one of the assistants. Are

609
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: great job last night. Just so you know, t A

610
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: is fucking pissed and on the way and you don't

611
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: don't name the name, but I know what assistant. Anybody

612
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: listen to this, that was what I'm talking about, right,

613
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 1: So anyway, so so I'm like, what is he mad about?

614
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: He's like, did you say that we dropped our are

615
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: academic index standards? I was like yes. He's like, why

616
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: I go because you turn on Harvard Like how the

617
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: fund did Harvard get all these dudes? They're like you

618
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: think they got all those dudes there to recruiting classes

619
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: and by the way, like and this I said at

620
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: the time, and I said again, like it's the right

621
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: thing to do, right, It's the greatest institution in our country.

622
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: We should open our doors to all. You should open

623
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: our doors to many more people than than just the

624
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: upper upper upper trust academically, huh. And why why when

625
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: the basketball coach does it, it's an issue. But when

626
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: we want to do away with standardized tests because of

627
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: certain biases and things of that nature, and administrators want

628
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: to do it, it's not an issue. Why Why is that?

629
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 1: I mean, is it the is that a racial component

630
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: is a basketball because a racial component to it, for sure?

631
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: I mean, but if they but if you want to

632
00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: if you want to drop, but that doesn't that goes

633
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: counter to the if people wanted if if administrators want

634
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 1: to do it anyway, right, well, and and well, and

635
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: that that's kind of what I'm getting at is, if

636
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: you're an administrator and you're considering dropping standardized tests, you're

637
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 1: you're you're also considering the fact that maybe not everybody

638
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: is having the same level of education to prepare them

639
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 1: for those tests. And some of that is based on race,

640
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: some of that is based on socio economic level in

641
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: terms of that access too. So if you can identify that,

642
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: then it's it's not the worst thing in the world

643
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, now, if there are athletes who don't

644
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: have that same access to a great education to prepare

645
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: them in a certain way. But they are brilliant and

646
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: they can do the work. Because I'm not Tommy's agent now,

647
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 1: but all of his kids graduated, I can successful, all right,

648
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: So I have no issue with his guys. I was

649
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: I was trying to say, hey, are we going to

650
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: get our guys? That was my issue. But that's that's

651
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 1: what changed. That's what I never forget. I was like, well,

652
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: that's what's changed in your league, right, That's why you know,

653
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: Penn pen Pen used to have the easiest academic standards

654
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: in the league, and they had the best basketball players

655
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: in the league, you know, during during that time, and

656
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: Princeton was was was right there, and like you guys

657
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: split Champ like there like eighteen years verse basically like

658
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: those two programs. Then all of a sudden, allie sudden.

659
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: I mean, he had the one year with Cornell, right

660
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: that was an incredible team at Steve built right, plus

661
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: he came from Penn right there, some of the same stuff,

662
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: and and and then Harvard's like, you know, like in

663
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: order to get Tommy, you gotta be reasonable, like you know,

664
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: because there's no way he takes that job, not unless

665
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: he was Unless he was told I don't know if

666
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: you know this story about t A but Door I

667
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: was told was he was one time he almost took

668
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: the Northwestern job, and he brought two transcripts with him

669
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: and he ate him down on the table for them.

670
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: He said, and he said, take a lot of these transcripts.

671
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: And they said, uh, this one's a no, this one's

672
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: this one's a wait list maybe. And he's say, congratulations,

673
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 1: you just turned down Bobby Hurley and Christian Later and

674
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: for that reason, I am out right. So, I mean,

675
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: by the way, just brilliant by him. Doubt it makes

676
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: me that Harvard would have accepted Bobby Hurley and Christian Lightner. Yeah.

677
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: So uh um, so I think it is fascinating the

678
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: academic into And then you know my discussion with this.

679
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: So they sent in a guy. I met the Harvard players.

680
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 1: They were as you said, they're not only like just

681
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: just a different they're just like brilliant and you know,

682
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: um and just wonderful to be around. It's like one

683
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: of those like God, I can't believe I was an

684
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: hour and a half, felt like five minutes of those kids.

685
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: So he's sending this guy from the IVY League and

686
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: he's like, let me explain to you the the what

687
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 1: we've actually done with the academic index, and I should listen.

688
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: You know, I actually know that they He's like, did

689
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: you know we raised the academic index as a league.

690
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, that's because all the coaches complained

691
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: because Harvard was getting dudes in, right, and Harvard was

692
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: doing the thing when they were bringing in guys with

693
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: four sixes so that they get a kid give with

694
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: the three five right, they knew exactly what they were.

695
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 1: They were smart, they knew the system. They got good kids.

696
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: These balanced now with the academic index, right, So that

697
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: went overwhelmed that that conversation went well. Um, so that

698
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: was what led you to take the fair Fields job

699
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: because yeah, I just I wasn't I didn't want to

700
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: be at my alma mater, not and and not know

701
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: that we would have a chance to to to be

702
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: competitive Doug, and it just like it was gonna rip

703
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: my heart open. And by the way, beating Tommy's team

704
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: because you could say individually they were better. We had

705
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: a really good team. We had a really good collection

706
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: with with with Doug Davis and Pat Saunders and and

707
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: Damma Radis and guys that aren't household names, but they're

708
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: like they were wonderful and so are. I knew how

709
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: hard it was to be a good team of highly

710
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: rated recruits, and I was like, yeah, man, we're gonna

711
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 1: have to like keep bringing in dudes. And I just

712
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure it was gonna happen a fair Field.

713
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 1: Gene Doris was a phenomenal a d like a friend

714
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: to me to this day. And we just hit it off,

715
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: and I was like, let me, let me try to

716
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: take this on. UM. Ed Cooley and I share the

717
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: same agent. Ed was going out the door to Providence

718
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: leaving fair Field. UM, I had a chance to get

719
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: on at Towson UM, but I just it was like

720
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: another home situation, so I'd be I would be going

721
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: from college home to home home. And I was like,

722
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: let me just mix this up and try Fairfield. And uh,

723
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: in eight years, I have no regrets, you know, I

724
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: just uh, you know, we we just got young at

725
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: a time, and you know, changing a D, changing president,

726
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: and you know that's not the first time that's happened. Yeah. No, No,

727
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: went on to new a D and new president or

728
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: new arena, like all those things exactly yeah, expectations. Um,

729
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: if you could change one thing, what would it be. Um,

730
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 1: In my time of Fairfield, I think it was people

731
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 1: have asked me this. We got young, Like I didn't

732
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: write shirt, um, things of that nature. We got young

733
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: too many times, and so I took a hit. I

734
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: took a really big hit in year three, and I took,

735
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: you know, a big hit in year eight or nine

736
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 1: or whatever. My last season was where we were young

737
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 1: and so and we couldn't we you know, we weren't

738
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: compared editive. Now those guys eventually they moved on to

739
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: be you know, like my last team, two two or

740
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: three of those guys were started as these last few years,

741
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: I was in the coach, so we could always recruit,

742
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, every year I had all confidence. Literally every

743
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: year I had an All Conference kid or an All

744
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: Conference award. Every year I was at a fear of field,

745
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: recruited the number one player or number one scoring school history,

746
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: number four score scoring school history only when versus a

747
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: CEC team, blah blah blah blah blah. But when you

748
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: get young and you take a hit, and you have

749
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,720
Speaker 1: two down years and they're spaced out by a few,

750
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: it just it was just too much and you know

751
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: they made a change and you know, God bless them

752
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: and move on. What what is that like though for

753
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: you when you when you get fired. Yeah, yeah, it's

754
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: it's uh even saying it. I mean, I think it's

755
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: hard for guys. I got let go, I got no

756
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: you know, you got fired. My agent and he's big time.

757
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: I loved and us Dennis Coleman. He said, Um, I

758
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,919
Speaker 1: haven't told anybody this. He said, Uh, you know, can

759
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: you talk to them about you know, maybe you know

760
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: you you stepping down or you know, in the in

761
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: the in the release, the press release, I said, Dennis,

762
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: they're firing me. I mean they can say whatever they

763
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: want to say, like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna

764
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: try to play that game. And I and to this

765
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: day it's a huge thing. And oh fired, I'm I'm

766
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: a man up. Like they wanted to make a change.

767
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 1: I got fired. So even just that that psychological thing

768
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 1: and that thing in the business of getting fired. But

769
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: once I did get fired, once I did do the

770
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: kind of reflection. We got too young. Um, there's a

771
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: kid here or there that I had out of position.

772
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: Um could have done this, could have done that some

773
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: really positive reflection on me and learned from it. It's

774
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: actually empowering and you can and move forward and you

775
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: learn that there's some really really good coaches who have

776
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 1: also been fired. And so it's like, you know, coach

777
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: k and and and God bless him. You know, not

778
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: everybody has a career like that. There are outstanding you

779
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,439
Speaker 1: know everyone. I saw your tweets on Monte Ellis and

780
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: how good how well he connected with big boy DeAndre

781
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: Ayton uh in a time out and and your tweets

782
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,959
Speaker 1: and everybody else who's talking about how great a job coach,

783
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: But nobody remembers that coach got fired a few years

784
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: before at Charlotte and he I'm sure he's learned from that.

785
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: Jay Kid Hall of Famer and is on his third

786
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: job he's been fired. So you know, yeah, I a

787
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: good friend of mine, and he was right. He said,

788
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: you'll you'll be better, You'll be a better you'll be

789
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: a better coach. You'll free your self from things that

790
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: you've been locked in on, some things that maybe you

791
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: were afraid to you were afraid to try on. And

792
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: you've loosen yourself up. And now I'm thinking about I

793
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: should have been doing more three on three with my

794
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: guys in the off season. I should have been doing

795
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: more decision making in workouts, letting them figure it out,

796
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: not always structuring, you know, things to a t empowering

797
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: them to make to use their head when they skill

798
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: develop because it transfers better on the court. And that's

799
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: stuff that I'm working on now in terms of player development.

800
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: And I'm I'm so excited about it. And I don't

801
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: know if that would have come about if I was

802
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: still you know, at Fairfield. I legitimately mean that, and

803
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: so I've I'm a better coach today and and a

804
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 1: lot more confident after getting through the whole emotional firing

805
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 1: part of it. Though, How how has that been? What's

806
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: that like? Yeah, you know, first uh not about you know,

807
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: it's not woe is me, just from a standpoint of like, I, uh,

808
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: I let two guys go from my staff some years ago,

809
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So I I've kind of

810
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 1: been on both sides of it, and I just want

811
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: to be you know, transparent that um, it's part of

812
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: the business and and and you're dealing with it. For me,

813
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: I have a great wife, super supportive, but yeah, I

814
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: was depressed. You know, first week I slept till uh noon,

815
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: you know, every day, not because I was tired, but

816
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: because I was down. I had migraines almost the whole

817
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: year of my last season at Fairfield, and my wife

818
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: helped me understand that there's a certain way that you

819
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: want things to be and there's a certain way that

820
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: they are. I knew I had good young talent, but

821
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: I knew that we probably weren't going to get enough

822
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: wins to be at eighteen twenty to guarantee another year

823
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:07,240
Speaker 1: or two again. New new boss, new president, new arena,

824
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: and that that anxiety. So that war on me. So

825
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: there are things that you deal with if you care,

826
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: if you give a damn about your results and what

827
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: you're doing and what the future looks like. That you know,

828
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: there's some physical toll that it. It took on me,

829
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 1: And like I said, I've been on the other side

830
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: where I let some guys go. You know, other people

831
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: have been let go. I'm not the only one who

832
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: had to deal with it. I will say this though, Um,

833
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: there are also people that surprised me. King Rice for MoMA.

834
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: He called me almost as soon as the news came out,

835
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 1: and he was if you know King, you know King

836
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: can go and he's got emotion and he was like

837
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,439
Speaker 1: this is terrible and they don't know what you're doing,

838
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: and you know, some colorful language, and I was like, King,

839
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: I'll just I'll never forget the call. And that's that's

840
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: what I'll tell you is there are other guys that

841
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: I might not have known as well, but maybe I

842
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: competed against who lost their jobs and I didn't reach out.

843
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: I learned from that. Tom Moore is assistant at Yukon.

844
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: I coach against him at Quitnipiac. He did outstanding job

845
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: there and they just kind of pulled it out from him.

846
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: He hit me up there like when I was let go,

847
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: and I was like, damn man, Like, like there is

848
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: there is a fraternity coaches lament about that because we've

849
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: gotten away from that a little bit. But there were

850
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:33,959
Speaker 1: guys that impressed me beyond my family and friends and professors.

851
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: I was really active at Fairfield, very very active on

852
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: the campus and a ton of them reached out to me.

853
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: So it that that helped with that healing, and then

854
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 1: once you heal again, you get better as a coach

855
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 1: because you reflect um. So this is now it's been

856
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: a year, right, it's been over a year. Yeah. Yeah, Um,

857
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: have you processed all of it? Does it still? You know?

858
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: Does it still? Oh? Yeah? I mean I use it.

859
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: You know. I was at the Air Force Academy this

860
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: past season as Joe Scott's associate head, and I was

861
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: ready for that moment because I had taken my time

862
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: after fair Field. I had done some tv UM, but

863
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 1: I had gotten into a lot of other people's gyms.

864
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,320
Speaker 1: I was looking a lot at G League and NBA stuff.

865
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: You know. I was like back back at the lab,

866
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: like sometimes you get entrenched with what you're doing. And

867
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: that's what I was saying before, where you I was

868
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 1: kind of freed up from what I was doing, and

869
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: that could pick my head up and look around just

870
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: a little bit more and do a deeper dive into

871
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: what other people are doing. And I still like what

872
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: I was doing, you know, after looking at that, but

873
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: I picked up some stuff and that informed me at

874
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: air Force, is what I'm trying to say. So I

875
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: got better and I could apply that. I could connect

876
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: with kids different. I gave Joe some different ideas. Joe

877
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: has been fired. I mean, Joe, Joe has been fired. Right,

878
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 1: I mean he he lost his dream Jack and he

879
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: was he always want to be a Princeton he was.

880
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: It didn't happen in Princeton, and he went back to

881
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 1: obviously went back to Denver. Now he's back at at

882
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: the academy. UM. So I mean, like that's a that's perfect.

883
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you what you talk about free in

884
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: your mind, like I'll give the basketball an a leg.

885
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: You do that. So I got done playing in college,

886
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: I went and played overseas. I did you know the

887
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 1: usb L that I was Anyway, I played in Russia

888
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,240
Speaker 1: m hm. And then I played in Israel the second

889
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 1: year and playing the A B A, played in the

890
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: Lake or Summer League, and then I got a chance

891
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: to call games for a year for ESPN. And that

892
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: was t J. Ford's last year at Texas and they

893
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: went to the Final four. And I remember distinctly like

894
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: it was so much it was the perfect time in

895
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: basketball for me to not play that season, because like

896
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: I just I just figured it out watching frankly, watching TJ.

897
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 1: Ford honestly, and and how I just wished I would

898
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: have had like an open conversation with coach Sutton right

899
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: where I because T j I don't. I think he

900
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: took one three the whole season, maybe not even that right,

901
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: and it was still a lot of it was still

902
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 1: a lot of report and you know, like just I

903
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,919
Speaker 1: I was, I'm fighting myself and my shot and I'm

904
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,479
Speaker 1: fighting my coach and you know, my teammates like knew

905
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 1: I had to shoot in order to open things up.

906
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 1: But my coach, you know, which just was just couldn't

907
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: handle any negative results. And it just like it just

908
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: became a thing. Right when I watched him and I

909
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: was like, well, dude, just take the shots that you

910
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: can make and and and shooting. Just just find the

911
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: shots that you can make. And I went back and

912
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: played in France UH that year and it was it

913
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 1: was the best I played for a young after and

914
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: coach and I just had an open conversation with him.

915
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: I was just like, hey, dude, just tell me what

916
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: you want to do and when you want to do it,

917
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: and if I don't do it, take me out and

918
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: if I do it, and you know, like you gotta

919
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: just trust me, like I've been doing this a long time.

920
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: And it was like an incredible experience. But it was

921
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: because frankly, I watched and I was in I watched

922
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: all these other practice and I watched you know, every

923
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:24,959
Speaker 1: team in the Big Twelve that year, and I called

924
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: you know, like thirty games and saw like sixty teams

925
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: or whatever. So that really really really helped. Okay, so

926
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: what's the process like for you? Now? What? What? Now?

927
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 1: So great question. I mean, you're always a teacher and

928
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: you're always a coach, and so for me, it's it's this,

929
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: I've lost zero confidence in terms of leading a college

930
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: team or a ProTeam. You know, a G League opportunity,

931
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: and that's whether it's a head coach, associated coach. So

932
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: I am I am open and will always leave the

933
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 1: door open for those opportunities. Uh, Doug, I've done some broadcasting.

934
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: I'll do some of that this year, and there's some

935
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: overlap there. You're not as hands on with players, but

936
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 1: you're breaking the game down, you're trying to figure it out.

937
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 1: It's XS and os. You're explaining that to players. Now

938
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: you're explaining that to uh spectators, you know, a viewing,

939
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: viewing audience. So I think there's some similarities. But I

940
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: touched upon it before. Is I'm really driven at the

941
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: same time with those things. I'm really driven with how

942
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: we're delivering the game, how we're teaching it. And I

943
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,919
Speaker 1: just think that in the States we have the best

944
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: players in the world, but we no longer have a

945
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: monopoly on producing the best and producing decision makers, playmakers

946
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: position list basketball. We we we don't have the monopoly

947
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:53,879
Speaker 1: on that because we're not allowing them to think while

948
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,720
Speaker 1: they're being trained. Our skill sets and our physicality are

949
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: off the charts, but and we apply it um it's

950
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: it's kind of robotic and and and countries have caught

951
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: up with us. So there's this is a question. I

952
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,879
Speaker 1: feel like when people state that that there's a lot

953
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,959
Speaker 1: of people USA basketball, for example, get really defensive. You're

954
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: really defensive. Look we're still winning all we're winning at

955
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: the youth levels, were winning the Olympic levels. Like we

956
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: gotta just haven't be honest with ourselves and just say, hey,

957
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: look we have we we were hundred yards ahead of everybody,

958
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 1: and we're still always going to be ahead because of

959
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: the diversity of of the you know, of ethnicities, which

960
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: I think produces you know, better talent. It's not just

961
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: about having black kids, it's about having we have an

962
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: incredibly diverse base and We've got three million people. Right,

963
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 1: so you have all races, you have races mixing together,

964
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 1: and you have three fifty million people and bath a

965
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: youth basketball is a huge thing where you have smaller

966
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,439
Speaker 1: countries that we we on the scale. They're actually caught

967
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 1: up to us and maybe even past us. But we're

968
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: in denial because right, but we still have Lebron, we

969
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: still have Anthony Davis. Yes, but it's quite obviously changed. You.

970
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: Why do you think we get so defensive when people

971
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: like yourself or like me point out that like they

972
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: they kind of kind of caught us in terms of

973
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: some of the nuances of how it's taught to the

974
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 1: at the youth level. So you and I should have

975
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: more conversations, whether it's pod or all fline, because you

976
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: literally took the words out of my mouth. Slovenia has

977
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: a country or three three million people, and they played

978
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: They were in the final four of the Olympics with

979
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 1: the team with a country that has over three fifty

980
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: million the US. That the gap is closed. I don't

981
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 1: know why I respect USA basketball and a whole lot

982
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 1: of others, but all I know is the NBA now

983
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: is littered with European and international guys coaching now, not

984
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,760
Speaker 1: just players coaching. So you tell me millions of dollars

985
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: in the best league in the world, and these NBA

986
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: teams instead of hiring Doug Gottlieb and Sidney Johnson, that's cool,

987
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: they're hiring this guy and that guy from Slovenia and Spain.

988
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 1: And they they see it too. And what it is is,

989
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: I think it's the development where we're still training in

990
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: a way, we're not thinking analytically and broadly enough, where

991
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: we're not giving these kids that I played overseas. I

992
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: know how these kids, they weren't dribbling at cones over

993
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 1: and over. They were always playing up, you know what

994
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 1: I mean. It wasn't a big deal to be the

995
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: number one rated fifteen year old in you know, some

996
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: random town in Italy. They're like, no, we're gonna scoop

997
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: you up and put you in Bologna and play against

998
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: some of the best senior guys in the in the

999
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: in the country and bringing you along that way. But

1000
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: I really think it's the positionalist decision making aspects of

1001
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: the international style. And also Doug, they're not stuck on tradition,

1002
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: they're incorporating sports science advances in in soccer they call football, UM,

1003
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: but how you learn and teach their game. They're open

1004
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: to that in a way that because we created the game.

1005
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: And now I'm think I'm getting to the defensiveness. Because

1006
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: we created it and it was based on X. We're

1007
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: having trouble jumping to why. But I'm a big fan

1008
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: of soccer. I've been exposed international game. I'm a teacher,

1009
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: and I think WHY and Z are the future of

1010
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: the game. And it's how we're teaching, how our kids

1011
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: are learning, and what we're exposing to them and allowing

1012
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 1: them to do on their own. I think that's the

1013
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: future of this this game. It's it's it's like, well,

1014
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 1: let's let's plan on a further discussion on it. But

1015
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: in the context of this discussion, it's interesting. So I'm

1016
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: coaching my son. He's twelve, he's a little um, but

1017
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: he's he's getting there. And I have a program and

1018
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: it's a lot of its trial and error, and it's

1019
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: it's fascinating that you know, UM, in the southern California

1020
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: AU community, right first, you know, like everybody's a whole back.

1021
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: Now I was a hold back, right, I was I

1022
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: was one of the first I copied some of the

1023
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: football hold backs, and I was a hold back. I

1024
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: was hold back. I believe out of necessity, um, not

1025
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 1: out of necessarily agreed. And I was five when I

1026
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 1: graduate eighth grade, and then I was five nine entering

1027
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: fifteen months later entering high school. You know, so that

1028
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: that freshman year would been a complete wash, whereas I

1029
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: played a little varsity and played JB, and then by

1030
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: my senior year I would have been a mid major

1031
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: as opposed to I was a high major. Right, So

1032
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 1: that that's the way it worked. But so I'm gonna

1033
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: do that with him. Um. But it's interesting in terms

1034
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 1: of trying to teach. You've got to do that. You

1035
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 1: got to give them the skill, right, but then you

1036
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 1: got to give them the decision making. But even that

1037
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: is hard in that when you get into these games,

1038
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: the high level games, everybody's just pressing, you know, diamond pressed,

1039
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: man pressed or whatever, which I do think weeds weeds

1040
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: some of the kids that aren't going to be able

1041
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 1: to do it. Like you can either break pressure, play

1042
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 1: against athleticism, or you can't. On the other hand, like

1043
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: just playing five out tacking basketball, I won't allow it.

1044
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: But you'll get You'll get parents that they they don't

1045
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: get it, they don't understand. Like I have a I

1046
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: have to really talented seventh grade, really talented, and the

1047
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 1: parents are both bought. And I'm just like, hey, listen,

1048
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 1: if you come down and do a Russell Westberg possession

1049
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: where nobody touched the ball and you shoot it, okay,

1050
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: whether you're successful or not successful. The next time down

1051
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: the court and you pass the ball, that guy automatically

1052
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: is thinking, should I better shoot it because I ain't

1053
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: getting it back? And then the next guy do the

1054
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: thing passed around like the blue like we know how

1055
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: it works. And so I'm trying to convince them that,

1056
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:18,479
Speaker 1: in addition to moving the defense, in addition to being

1057
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: in better position to succeed, just in the idea of

1058
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: being a good teammate, the second time you catch the basketball,

1059
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: now you can attack. And that's that's that's a hard thing.

1060
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: And then you've got to give them the skill set

1061
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: two read all of these different things. There's all the

1062
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: you can't you know, because when what happens is some

1063
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 1: of them they decide what they're gonna do before they

1064
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: ever catch the basketball. Right, I'm shooting it no matter what.

1065
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: I'm driving, no matter what. And when I drive, I'm shooting,

1066
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: or I drive I'm passing, no matter what. So how

1067
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: you mentioned three on three and it's hard. Obviously we

1068
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: don't have a court, we don't have video. But if

1069
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 1: you're going to develop players decision making, what are some

1070
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: of the steps in the process that you think too

1071
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: many of? A Smithsi, Oh my gosh, Well, I would

1072
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: say three on three is a fundamental part of it.

1073
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 1: But um and also just allowing literally allowing players to

1074
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: decide and forcing them to decide. So if we're gonna

1075
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: go out and shoot, you know we're gonna take We're

1076
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: not just gonna catch and shoot threes over and over.

1077
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 1: You're gonna catch and shoot a three. You're gonna catch

1078
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: and shoot, go left, go right, and oh, by the way,

1079
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: step back, pub fake what You're going to decide all

1080
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: those and we're gonna keep track of your manes, and

1081
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: you're gonna do it at a high intensity level. I mean,

1082
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 1: we're going at it and then you're gonna spread down

1083
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: and you're gonna go right into a pull up, and

1084
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna variate all of these different types of shots

1085
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: because that's what the date game demands. You need time,

1086
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: all right, but we're using time to watch video and

1087
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: lift weights and all that, but we're not taking the

1088
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: time to vary how we develop our skill set. Um,

1089
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,200
Speaker 1: that's that's one. Okay, So wait, let me let me

1090
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 1: let me go further with that because it's interesting. So again,

1091
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna use my son as a he's little.

1092
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 1: He can shoot, but to me, he's got to be

1093
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: a great shooter. Great, you know like that. The basketball

1094
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 1: demands great shoot. Now. I understand that you've got to

1095
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: be able to shoot moving, you've gotta be able to

1096
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: make decisions, but I do think the fundamental basis of

1097
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: it is you've got to be able to catch it,

1098
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: place it shoot. And granted it's at a younger age,

1099
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: there's a volume too. So the process I work with

1100
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,919
Speaker 1: him on is I try and simplify things, which is, okay,

1101
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna shoot ten. Catching shoots okay, then we're gonna

1102
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: shoot ten. You know, catch sidestep up and shoot and

1103
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: then he gets one counter to that move. Because what

1104
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 1: I found, again this is more at the youth level,

1105
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 1: is they're so concerned about their bad right, man, I

1106
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: got that in my bag and I crossed that. Dude up, like, dude,

1107
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: catch and shoot. Okay, if not, you get into a

1108
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 1: move and if and if somebody's on that move, you

1109
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: get into your counter. And if not, move the ball,

1110
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: let me let me. I'm gonna jump in. I'm gonna

1111
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: jump in because this is really critical and I hope

1112
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:08,479
Speaker 1: that this I hope you can hold onto this. Yeah,

1113
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: in terms of sports science and pedagogy, like how people

1114
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 1: best learn Okay, um, your son is gonna best transfer

1115
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 1: skills to the game if he learns them in the

1116
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 1: same setting that a game demands. So I'm with you

1117
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 1: on ten in a row to get that smooth out

1118
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 1: and then ten pull ups it. But that that never

1119
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 1: presents itself in the game. So his ability to transfer

1120
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 1: the skill set that you're working on, it's not best

1121
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: transferred to the game the way that you're delivering it.

1122
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: So what is that? Just varian? Just in so vari

1123
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: So to do you want to variant? Do one do

1124
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: the other, do the other? Or do you call it

1125
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: out when they catch it? Is that a better way? Well?

1126
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,919
Speaker 1: I would say the first like, let let give him.

1127
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 1: You can give him some constraints, So give him four

1128
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 1: or five different shots and say, all right, you and

1129
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: you gotta take ten of those four or five different

1130
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 1: shots each. But you, son, you decide the order, you

1131
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 1: decide the rhythm. Don't ever shoot the same one um

1132
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 1: back to back in a row. And that level of

1133
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 1: skill building will transfer best to the game. And that's

1134
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 1: been proven. There's like that's not like a basketball thing.

1135
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 1: That is a proven way of learning. And so you'll

1136
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 1: be equipping him best for getting all those shots off

1137
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: and making them in a game that we're able to

1138
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 1: do that. That word, by the way, is the perfect word, right,

1139
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: because I believe that's that's the coach's true job, right

1140
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: is I gotta equip you with the weaponry. It's just

1141
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 1: like it's a parent, right, I gotta equip you with

1142
01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 1: the weaponry to deal with the world. The rest is

1143
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 1: kind up to you, you know. And it's the same

1144
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: thing with I gotta teach you how to break a press.

1145
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: I gotta teach you how to break pressure. I gotta

1146
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: teach you how you know how to read when you're

1147
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 1: driving in But then the rest is kind of up

1148
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: to you. Um. Why three on three I love, by

1149
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 1: the way, three on three on three amazing, right, amazing

1150
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: because it can incorporate all the levels of three on

1151
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: three plus the ability to break pressure, plus it's kind

1152
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 1: of it's kind of a little bit of constant chaos.

1153
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 1: It's it's it's one of my favorite things that, uh,

1154
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: that that we like to do. But why three on

1155
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 1: three for you? Why is that so important? So now

1156
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:36,960
Speaker 1: we take your son and we've done that skill skill development,

1157
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: But now we put him along with two other guys

1158
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 1: or girls and they're playing against another group of three,

1159
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 1: and now they've got to make all these decision make making. Uh,

1160
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 1: they have all these decision making opportunities that DOUG are

1161
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 1: infinitely more than they'll have in five on five. So

1162
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: it's the ultimate skill development tool. And I'm talking FEEBA

1163
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 1: three on three okay, where there's like not there's not

1164
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:07,439
Speaker 1: stoppages of play. It's like continuous. If if I'm playing

1165
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 1: against you and I miss, you're getting it off the board,

1166
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 1: you're out letting it, clearing it and all that stuff.

1167
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 1: So you increase the number of opportunities. It's actually been

1168
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 1: proven cardiovascular like a workout. Wise, it's more of a

1169
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: workout than five on five, and then it's better than

1170
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 1: doing one on one or one on zero because you

1171
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: and I know, the true game is a team game,

1172
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:35,479
Speaker 1: so it's done in concert with other players. So it's

1173
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: like the and it's less wear and tear. Then five

1174
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: on five up and down, over and over. A not

1175
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: in AU is great in high school and all that,

1176
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,919
Speaker 1: but you can play three or four. You can play

1177
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: five AU games in a in a weekend and not

1178
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: get as good of a workout in the skill development

1179
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 1: that I'm talking about and three on three. So these

1180
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 1: types of things I'm working on in terms of what

1181
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: I call and other people have used a word like playmakers.

1182
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 1: There's a couple of books written on it and stuff

1183
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: like that, but it's a it's a perfect compliment to

1184
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 1: the skill development approach that I've been working on. You

1185
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: mentioned that your dad taught African American history. Yeah, you're

1186
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 1: like You've always struck me as like if he wasn't

1187
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: doing this, you'd be a professor. You know, No, I mean,

1188
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 1: I just because you're you incredibly knowledgeable, but also you

1189
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 1: you have a way of of controlling a room and

1190
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 1: making you kind of even with what you're talking about

1191
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 1: three and three, of intriguing and firing, like my brain,

1192
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 1: which is that's the whole thing of Uh. You know,

1193
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 1: anybody's taking a class either engaged you're not engaged. The

1194
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: information generally the same. Okay. But so you've seen a

1195
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: lot of us come to the social justice movement and

1196
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: a lot of the discussions over athletics and how we

1197
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: handle black athletes, I supposed to how we have the

1198
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 1: white athlete. There's renewed discussions about race. I will just

1199
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: tell you that, you know, and this is a weird

1200
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 1: thing maybe for some people outside of basketball, outside of sport,

1201
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:21,040
Speaker 1: race has been a you know, it's always a thing

1202
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 1: and guys messed with each other about it whatever. But

1203
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 1: it was I don't know, maybe it's because I grew

1204
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: up where I'm in California. It's kind of you know,

1205
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: fairly homogeneous. Um. Or maybe it's just my dad's outlook

1206
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:38,520
Speaker 1: on life where you know, it wasn't any thought of

1207
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 1: of anything racial wasn't accepted, and it's never been a part.

1208
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 1: And I've had black friends, white friends, mixed friends, whatever. Um.

1209
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: But as somebody who really truly understands, truly understands the

1210
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 1: history of everything and how it has placed us in

1211
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: this spot. Um, what do you think how do you

1212
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 1: think we should be talking about these topics, handling these

1213
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:06,800
Speaker 1: things within the context of sports specifically. Yeah, well we

1214
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:11,879
Speaker 1: one just having you know, it seems really like hokey,

1215
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 1: but just like having to open honest conversations from a perspective, uh,

1216
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: from a black perspective, just just to be real, I'm

1217
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 1: not sure that that has always been well represented and

1218
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:26,920
Speaker 1: how we talk about those And when I say we,

1219
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 1: I mean just like you know, players being able to

1220
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 1: speak their minds and saying, hey, I feel like I'm

1221
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,320
Speaker 1: just a player to you, where I have these other

1222
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 1: ideas and I have these other goals in life and

1223
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:44,280
Speaker 1: if I don't play well, um, those are those aren't

1224
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: validated And I'm just a guy who went one for

1225
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:52,439
Speaker 1: ten from the field tonight. And how they can feel

1226
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:56,000
Speaker 1: like that's a reflection on their blackness as much as

1227
01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 1: anything else. Um, we can debate that or not. But

1228
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 1: I mean, even just hearing that and trying to figure out,

1229
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 1: you know, what does that mean? I think I think

1230
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: that's new to this space, don't you do you think

1231
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 1: and this this would just be to me, is isn't

1232
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:17,959
Speaker 1: that kind of a universal thing? Like is that specific

1233
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:22,720
Speaker 1: to the black athlete, Like if I played terrible, you know,

1234
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 1: people think I could play right, is it? Because I

1235
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 1: almost feel like that's you know, true equality is we

1236
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:35,600
Speaker 1: don't just pump up the black athlete and and and

1237
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:37,679
Speaker 1: paint him as more than an athlete. If he's brilliant,

1238
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: he's brilliant. If he's not, he's not. But it's also

1239
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 1: the fair treatment of everybody, right, It's like, so that's excellent.

1240
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 1: So you're you're spot on. And what I would say is,

1241
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:50,440
Speaker 1: but the context that you you um started the conversation

1242
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 1: is is history, and history does play a role in

1243
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,400
Speaker 1: all this. And what I would say is Black people,

1244
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:02,440
Speaker 1: for years and years and years, I've had to um,

1245
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:07,600
Speaker 1: they've been represented in ways that they didn't own, you know,

1246
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 1: so you know, just how they were depicted and described.

1247
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 1: We haven't always owned that. And so I think you

1248
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 1: have to you have to be open to saying, Okay, well,

1249
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 1: now black people want to they want to own the

1250
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 1: way that they're being described and depicted. And so Doug,

1251
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if white folks have had to deal

1252
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 1: with the fact that sometimes they were represented in a

1253
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:39,320
Speaker 1: way that they weren't comfortable with. So it's not it's not.

1254
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 1: It's not apples and apples. Okay, so like let's let's

1255
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:46,640
Speaker 1: just let's just let's just have that. Let's here's the

1256
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:50,680
Speaker 1: uncomfortableness of the discussion. Right, Okay, I'll never forget I

1257
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 1: walk into a gym in downtown Hartthor. Okay, there's uh

1258
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: the Boys Club, Boys and Girls Club, the Heart from

1259
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 1: y m c A, which I don't if it's even

1260
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 1: there anymore. And I remember, I'll never forget that I

1261
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 1: was there and I couldn't get in a game, like

1262
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: I'm like professionally, right, I let the country and says like,

1263
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 1: and I couldn't like get in the game. And then

1264
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 1: when I do get in the game, I get the ball.

1265
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 1: What do you think everybody else? Shoot? Are right? And

1266
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 1: so here would be here would be my my I do.

1267
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:30,759
Speaker 1: I understand that the historic context and obviously it's wrong,

1268
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: But the historic context was that there was an intellectual

1269
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 1: capability of the white player that the black player didn't have.

1270
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:40,600
Speaker 1: But there's an athletic capability of the black player that

1271
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 1: the white player didn't have, right, and um, and so

1272
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:47,760
Speaker 1: if I'm in the gym, you know, or if I'm good,

1273
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 1: I'm a gym rat and I have to be a shooter.

1274
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:52,639
Speaker 1: Like actually, I was a very good athlete who couldn't

1275
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:57,600
Speaker 1: shoot a lick. And I have black teammates that were brilliant.

1276
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:00,200
Speaker 1: I have black teammates that were not brilliant. I have

1277
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:01,880
Speaker 1: white teammate. You know, I had a I had a

1278
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:04,640
Speaker 1: teammate at Oaklahoma State who transferred William Mary had a

1279
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 1: very good career as my roommate's named Mike Johnson. And

1280
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 1: his last practice in Oklahoma State, and he said and said, Mike,

1281
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,400
Speaker 1: you're the dumbest smart kid we ever had, right, And

1282
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:15,640
Speaker 1: it was because he was a four point student and

1283
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 1: he couldn't remember secondary break. He just could. It didn't

1284
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 1: matter he could, didn't matter how many times we went

1285
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:25,400
Speaker 1: over right where you had like my boy Joe Atkins, who,

1286
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 1: like Joe is just a survivor in school. But that

1287
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 1: dude can he can recall every player, every tendency, every

1288
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 1: set we ever ran. He's from Oklahoma City, you know,

1289
01:13:34,360 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 1: like he's but he's the real deal in terms like

1290
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 1: a basketball savant um anyway, but that's the realnest I

1291
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 1: would I would push back against you only in that, yes,

1292
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:52,000
Speaker 1: white players have like in basketball specifically, there's a tremendous

1293
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 1: amount of negative stereotyping towards white players. Some urged right,

1294
01:13:56,040 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 1: some urged um. But so I do know what that labels,

1295
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: but I also don't know what that labels like in

1296
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 1: terms of your intellectual capabilities being questioned, which is patently false,

1297
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:10,760
Speaker 1: probably false, and completely unfair. So that part, you know,

1298
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 1: strikes at the heart of who you are as a

1299
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 1: human being. And again it's it's it's you can't you

1300
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: can't talk about these in isolation. And I'm gonna push back,

1301
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:22,600
Speaker 1: and I hope that this is no it's good keeping us. Like, like,

1302
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna appreciate this conversation. You're a white guy who

1303
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 1: couldn't get into a game in a basket, you know,

1304
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:34,600
Speaker 1: into a basketball game, But there's a black kid who

1305
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:39,400
Speaker 1: is worried about getting because of his blackness, is worried

1306
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:43,880
Speaker 1: about about getting pulled over by a cop, or a

1307
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 1: black man who's in his forties who can't get a

1308
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:52,280
Speaker 1: bank loan or so it's like there there's levels of

1309
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 1: this and I'm not trivializing your experience. I'm being but

1310
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is it's hard for that black kid

1311
01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 1: who's thinking of out how he's viewed as a black

1312
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 1: basketball player, Doug. When he walks out of the gym,

1313
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 1: he's also now has to deal with how he's viewed

1314
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 1: as a black man in this world. And and there's

1315
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:16,640
Speaker 1: no longer a time to compartmentalize those things. And I

1316
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,160
Speaker 1: think that that's what's been happening to this modern age.

1317
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 1: Is like I walked in and I had great teammates

1318
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: and they were almost all white at Princeton, Okay, And

1319
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,160
Speaker 1: when I walked in the gym, I was at Princeton,

1320
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 1: Tiger and Real and those are my guys. But when

1321
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:36,840
Speaker 1: I walked out, I was a black dude on the

1322
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 1: campus at Princeton. And that's not an experience that they had. Now,

1323
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:43,680
Speaker 1: maybe a Jewish kid might have or something like that,

1324
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,639
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but they didn't have that where they

1325
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:49,719
Speaker 1: had to they turned into something else when they walked

1326
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 1: out of the gym. And these are the things that

1327
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: are are now being talked about in our sports space

1328
01:15:56,400 --> 01:16:00,200
Speaker 1: that I think validates these types of conversations. So it

1329
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:04,360
Speaker 1: so coming coming from hearing you, right, it's like, Look,

1330
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:08,479
Speaker 1: sports hasn't really been about that for a good amount

1331
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:10,960
Speaker 1: of time. I think it's been you know, it's more

1332
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 1: meritocracy than anything else. But you're bringing in the baggage

1333
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:16,679
Speaker 1: of the rest of your life, or maybe not baggage,

1334
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:20,840
Speaker 1: your bringing in right reality, the reality of the rest

1335
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 1: of your life. Well, I think, I think so, I

1336
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 1: don't know, like a reality and my reality, yes, not

1337
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:31,639
Speaker 1: your reality, which is which is cool. And we're sharing

1338
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 1: our realities, which ultimately makes us more human. We're like

1339
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:40,880
Speaker 1: real talk. But when we don't share those realities, we're

1340
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:44,880
Speaker 1: like we can't quite you can't quite appreciate al right

1341
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 1: in your opinion, like this year, obviously the amount of

1342
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 1: diverse HighRes is at an all time high. Yeah, right, um,

1343
01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:57,479
Speaker 1: but having experienced it is, do you believe there's still

1344
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:04,000
Speaker 1: a something whole thing administrators back from hiring more black

1345
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:07,200
Speaker 1: head coaches, like in in football, you know that the

1346
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:11,679
Speaker 1: numbers are still exceptionally low. What do you think holds

1347
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:14,400
Speaker 1: those numbers back? I think it's money. I mean, I

1348
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:17,120
Speaker 1: I you know, to be honest, there's there's a bottom line,

1349
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 1: right you gotta keep you gotta keep certain people happy

1350
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 1: at the highest levels. So boosters, I think, So I

1351
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 1: really do, I really do? I mean I think that, Um,

1352
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 1: let's let's let's be honest, the football coach at certain schools,

1353
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 1: the basketball coach at other schools. They are one of

1354
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:38,880
Speaker 1: the major faces of the university. I mean that's I mean,

1355
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:41,519
Speaker 1: that's not a profound statement. Highest paid members of the

1356
01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 1: of the most state institutions are writing institutions. And so

1357
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 1: if those boosters, there's and it's influenced potentially by a

1358
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: racial perspective, but it's not the only thing. I'm not

1359
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 1: saying that. But I'm saying that if a booster does

1360
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 1: not you like, they relate to or see themselves in

1361
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 1: or want to back you know, whoever those are, then

1362
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: that whoever ain't getting hired. I mean that that's just

1363
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:16,920
Speaker 1: the reality of it. Um, it's it's it's not good,

1364
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:19,800
Speaker 1: it's not cool. Um. I have an issue with it.

1365
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 1: But those are facts. I mean, I don't you know.

1366
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 1: And then and then you have an athletic director or

1367
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:31,960
Speaker 1: president with the courage and the wisdom I'm reading again, Uh,

1368
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:35,240
Speaker 1: you know I came as a shadow. You know, John

1369
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: John Thompson Jr. Is a literal hero of mine. And

1370
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:43,360
Speaker 1: and they have the courage to hire this black man

1371
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two to take the university and their

1372
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:54,280
Speaker 1: basketball program to another level. But it was intentionally to say, hey,

1373
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 1: we want to have black students here, We want to

1374
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 1: have a black present skire at a univer city that was,

1375
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:04,559
Speaker 1: you know, predominantly white. We want to change that narrative

1376
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:08,960
Speaker 1: and that reality. That was intentional. That's it's so interesting.

1377
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:13,000
Speaker 1: I remember when I was watching the eighties and Georgetown

1378
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 1: was that it's it's peak. I remember my dad telling me, like,

1379
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:18,439
Speaker 1: you know, George Town was like an old white school. Yeah,

1380
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:23,479
Speaker 1: and if you there's no way that anybody who watched

1381
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 1: them play thought that it's really it's It's one of

1382
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:28,840
Speaker 1: those It's like the power of sport, right, It's like

1383
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:31,640
Speaker 1: what you want to the power of sport? And I

1384
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 1: got some of it's fake, right of some universities just

1385
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:37,200
Speaker 1: do it, you know, so they go like, hey, look

1386
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 1: we got diversity. Look yeah, right there is. On the

1387
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 1: other hand, it does you know, open your eyes to universities.

1388
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 1: It does change. I mean like, look, the Fab five

1389
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 1: is a fascinating case study right there. The oldest son

1390
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:58,599
Speaker 1: is named Jalen, So those are those are my guys, right,

1391
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 1: So they were they were like cultural icons. Yes, literally,

1392
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: I do think that the and I understand that there's

1393
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,880
Speaker 1: a dynamic there with the Ed Martin thing. I think

1394
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:16,519
Speaker 1: that ended up really hurting their legacy because it fed

1395
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:20,000
Speaker 1: into the ay, you know, black players they only want

1396
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 1: to go somewhere where they take money, whatever. When I

1397
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:25,519
Speaker 1: don't think that was truly what it was. I'd like

1398
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 1: to believe it's not truly what it was about. You know,

1399
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:30,320
Speaker 1: that was kind of how he was a guy who

1400
01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 1: took care of the kids in the city of Detroit.

1401
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:35,080
Speaker 1: They didn't have to sell drugs, they didn't have to.

1402
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:37,680
Speaker 1: All they could do was hoop. Right. But I do

1403
01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:40,040
Speaker 1: think that there's always going to be a negative perception

1404
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:43,040
Speaker 1: on that team because they were clearly cheating. But it

1405
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:48,680
Speaker 1: was like that was that changed culture. I mean, without

1406
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:50,960
Speaker 1: a doubt. I mean, how we look at shorts. How

1407
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 1: many kids are named Jalen Right playing freshman altogether playing swag?

1408
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 1: Remember the Haratis they came out, They remember the best

1409
01:21:03,479 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 1: you ever made? Yeah it was. It was unbelievable. But

1410
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:08,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna tie something to what we were

1411
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 1: talking about earlier. So those guys made millions of dollars

1412
01:21:12,439 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 1: for somebody, and that was that was There was a

1413
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:19,479
Speaker 1: lot of blackness in that like in that in that moment,

1414
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:23,280
Speaker 1: in that culture and Doug, they didn't really get to

1415
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:28,479
Speaker 1: benefit or profit from that financially. See, I would disagree

1416
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:31,600
Speaker 1: Jayalen Rose still benefits and profits off right, like he

1417
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:34,400
Speaker 1: was a good NBA player. That dude is he's just

1418
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:37,640
Speaker 1: he's just smart or he's used it, I think, And

1419
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, like in the moment, right

1420
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:42,840
Speaker 1: and in the moment, that's what, Yeah, that's in the moment.

1421
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 1: But I always thought the idea and this is this

1422
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:48,360
Speaker 1: is the romantic in me. I always thought the idea

1423
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:51,479
Speaker 1: of college was everything you do here is gonna benefit

1424
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 1: you the rest of your life. And so Johnny Manziel

1425
01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:59,000
Speaker 1: was similarly a cultural icon in the moment and he

1426
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 1: tried to bend did it up at the moment. Now

1427
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:04,120
Speaker 1: he's out of football, but he's still always going to

1428
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:06,719
Speaker 1: get like he could work on TV tomorrow. Why because

1429
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:11,800
Speaker 1: he was Johnny football, right and the Fab five guys like, look,

1430
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 1: I think Chris Webber was an amazing player. I think

1431
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:18,479
Speaker 1: if he was now as a as a as a five,

1432
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:21,120
Speaker 1: can you imagine him people spacing around him as as

1433
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:24,439
Speaker 1: athletic as he was spacing around him like he played

1434
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:27,720
Speaker 1: the four now as the five, like he'd be incredible,

1435
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:32,920
Speaker 1: simply unguardable. Um, but like you know, he's going to

1436
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:36,200
Speaker 1: get opportunity after opportunity because he was Chris Webber fab five.

1437
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:39,760
Speaker 1: You're right, you're right, but all right, and this is

1438
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:42,840
Speaker 1: the history major and me, Yeah, there's a history. There's

1439
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:46,320
Speaker 1: a history in this country of black people not owning

1440
01:22:47,479 --> 01:22:51,040
Speaker 1: what's there's from the moment that it's there's and so

1441
01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:56,680
Speaker 1: it's it's again, it's context. It's that they were not

1442
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:00,839
Speaker 1: allowed and now white kids at that time weren't allowed

1443
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 1: to profit as well. I'm hearing you. But what I'm

1444
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 1: just telling you is there's a context, and it's hard

1445
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 1: for black people to look at that and go, oh, well,

1446
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 1: I'm gonna forget those times, all these other times that

1447
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:21,400
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to profit because everybody else isn't profiting. Okay,

1448
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:25,160
Speaker 1: But that's been what we've been dealing with for quite

1449
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:30,559
Speaker 1: some time, and I think that time is uh escaping us. Okay.

1450
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:33,600
Speaker 1: So here's here's the question. Does the name, image and

1451
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:40,720
Speaker 1: likeness does it help or hurt? Well, the college. I

1452
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:44,600
Speaker 1: fundamentally agree with you that college should be college I

1453
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:48,679
Speaker 1: actually do. I think, um, you know that that shouldn't

1454
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:51,400
Speaker 1: shock anyone as a as an IVY league grat You know,

1455
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:54,439
Speaker 1: I believe that college should be about college and it

1456
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:58,000
Speaker 1: shouldn't be about profiting. But I didn't set that. I

1457
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:01,040
Speaker 1: didn't tell CBS and ESPN and all these others to

1458
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:05,519
Speaker 1: pay X amount of dollars to broadcast games. I didn't

1459
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:08,840
Speaker 1: tell Nike and and pick whoever to give all these

1460
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:13,280
Speaker 1: coaches this money to endorse their teams or or or

1461
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:16,200
Speaker 1: their their own likeness. I didn't tell the n c

1462
01:24:16,320 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 1: a A to tell guys like me and you and

1463
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:23,679
Speaker 1: all kinds of other athletes to give up their rights

1464
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:27,160
Speaker 1: to their own name and image and likeness just to

1465
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:31,200
Speaker 1: play college sports. You know, I didn't set all these terms.

1466
01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:33,720
Speaker 1: So now that we have all this money around and

1467
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 1: all this, I would just say, for me, it's changed

1468
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:40,479
Speaker 1: what college is about. And I'm not okay with that.

1469
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:44,360
Speaker 1: I think that college should be fundamentally about the education.

1470
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 1: But because we've allowed all these financial entities or influences

1471
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:56,400
Speaker 1: to impact the game, now I think you can't put

1472
01:24:56,439 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 1: it back. So now you have to allow the guys

1473
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:03,599
Speaker 1: and gals who are doing the heavy lifting to at

1474
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:08,439
Speaker 1: least own their own name, image and likeness. I would.

1475
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:12,200
Speaker 1: I do believe though, the two things that week that

1476
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 1: are forever undervalued in this are getting into college right indeed,

1477
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:24,760
Speaker 1: like it's as you pointed out, Uh, most of these

1478
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:30,559
Speaker 1: college campus is still are predominantly white. They just it's

1479
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 1: still predominantly white, and and not at a ratio that

1480
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 1: is like society, right, Like in society, what is it

1481
01:25:37,960 --> 01:25:40,680
Speaker 1: white and thirteen cent black and span like no, no no, no,

1482
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:46,640
Speaker 1: you're talking like eighties to you know, so at like

1483
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:49,640
Speaker 1: big ten schools, SEC schools now obviously West coast, you

1484
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:53,080
Speaker 1: have more diversity each coast you have, you know you have.

1485
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:58,080
Speaker 1: We're not factoring in Asian, Hispanics or whatever. Um. So

1486
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 1: I do think that there's a value in that. I

1487
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:02,960
Speaker 1: also think there's a value in the brand of the

1488
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:06,639
Speaker 1: school that you play for that we you know, That's

1489
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:09,360
Speaker 1: why the n c A Tournament is so valuable, is

1490
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:13,120
Speaker 1: the bracket and the brands. And there's a direct correlation

1491
01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:17,040
Speaker 1: no matter who's playing for them. When Kansas on TV,

1492
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:20,360
Speaker 1: people watch Michigan's on TV, people watch Syracuse on TV,

1493
01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:23,960
Speaker 1: people watch regardless of it, and they learn about these

1494
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,000
Speaker 1: athletes and that's how we build up their own brand.

1495
01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 1: And I think again, we're putting a little cart ahead

1496
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:34,840
Speaker 1: of horse. I agree with you that understanding, you know,

1497
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:38,320
Speaker 1: profiting in the now, and and that how much money

1498
01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:41,400
Speaker 1: is out there. I just I feel like we skipped

1499
01:26:41,439 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 1: a step or a possible solution, you know, whether it

1500
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:48,840
Speaker 1: was setting money aside for when kids were done, you know,

1501
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:52,320
Speaker 1: some sort of you know, a fund for when they're done.

1502
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 1: We we kind of already had it, like Carolina with

1503
01:26:54,920 --> 01:26:59,479
Speaker 1: the barnstorming tours in Kentucky. Um. But you know, I'll

1504
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:02,360
Speaker 1: point out I do this all the time with media people.

1505
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 1: You like, what do you make? I ask them, what

1506
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:06,280
Speaker 1: do you make your first job? You know, my first

1507
01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:09,040
Speaker 1: job in radio, I made like four times what anybody

1508
01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:11,400
Speaker 1: should reasonably make. Why because I play basketball com State.

1509
01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 1: That's it. You know that people knew my name, So

1510
01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:17,280
Speaker 1: I I do think you can bet, but you have

1511
01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:19,160
Speaker 1: to know how to benefit that. You have to have

1512
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:21,200
Speaker 1: a skill set to be able to relate to people.

1513
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:23,360
Speaker 1: And that's that's the hard part to it is how

1514
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:26,800
Speaker 1: do you how do you give colleges at least some

1515
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:30,479
Speaker 1: sort of credit for getting more kids in which is

1516
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:32,840
Speaker 1: really the idea of the whole thing, put more kids

1517
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:35,400
Speaker 1: in this environment where they can meet people that will

1518
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:38,360
Speaker 1: help them rest of their lives. And then too, how

1519
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:40,320
Speaker 1: do we make it so that it's not just not

1520
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:43,120
Speaker 1: just playing for profit. You're playing for your team, your school,

1521
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:46,240
Speaker 1: your and and and those guys that you you practice

1522
01:27:46,320 --> 01:27:49,719
Speaker 1: with every day. Well, one thing I would I would

1523
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:52,439
Speaker 1: submit though, is I want to give these colleges credit

1524
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:56,439
Speaker 1: for getting these guys and gals in but also getting

1525
01:27:56,479 --> 01:28:01,679
Speaker 1: them out. Okay, because the graduation rates, Like like the universe,

1526
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:05,280
Speaker 1: the student has to have an issue with that and

1527
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:09,000
Speaker 1: have the drive to want to graduate, but the university

1528
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:12,080
Speaker 1: has to match that commitment, you know what I mean?

1529
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:15,080
Speaker 1: And like like so, the proudest moment in our family,

1530
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:18,400
Speaker 1: one of the proudest moments in our family, my brother Stephen.

1531
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:21,320
Speaker 1: He left school early. He played with Jason Kidd, Lama

1532
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:24,040
Speaker 1: Murray and all those guys, and he left early and

1533
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:27,840
Speaker 1: pursued a pro career. When he came back to the

1534
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:29,880
Speaker 1: States and kind of got back on his feet and

1535
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:33,920
Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff, Cal helped him financially in

1536
01:28:34,040 --> 01:28:37,880
Speaker 1: terms of tuition to finish his education, and I thought

1537
01:28:37,880 --> 01:28:40,600
Speaker 1: that that was amazing. I think that's a commercial for

1538
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:43,519
Speaker 1: Cal Berkeley. We don't. Why don't. Why don't we talk

1539
01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:46,479
Speaker 1: about that? I know that. That's why I want to

1540
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:49,840
Speaker 1: talk about it now. And I wish a lot of us.

1541
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 1: If you're an educator, if you care, if you're a

1542
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:54,920
Speaker 1: good person, you want to push stories like that, and

1543
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:57,799
Speaker 1: you want to have that be some of the outcome.

1544
01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:02,360
Speaker 1: That that means cow to me, that college being about college. Yeah,

1545
01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:04,040
Speaker 1: that that movement. And by the way, that's that's what

1546
01:29:04,120 --> 01:29:07,360
Speaker 1: Harvard has for all their students right where you know,

1547
01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:09,519
Speaker 1: like he's a Harvard dropout, like, yeah, because Harvard has

1548
01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:11,400
Speaker 1: a different set up to where you can always come back,

1549
01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, shrief of do Rahim did the same thing

1550
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:16,679
Speaker 1: at Cal right that doctor's first year and then while

1551
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:19,519
Speaker 1: he was in the league, he took classes and he graduated.

1552
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:21,360
Speaker 1: I think he even has a master's degree from Cal.

1553
01:29:21,479 --> 01:29:24,120
Speaker 1: Like he's a brilliant brilliant It does too. Yeah, they're

1554
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:26,880
Speaker 1: all in. They are all in, but but we don't

1555
01:29:27,160 --> 01:29:29,040
Speaker 1: and I and I think that's the way it should be.

1556
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:32,559
Speaker 1: And and um, it's a very important part of kind

1557
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:35,400
Speaker 1: of the college sports legacy that we don't champion enough.

1558
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 1: Did you know you can go back now and actually

1559
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:40,880
Speaker 1: be on the staff. Well and I raised that, Yeah,

1560
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:44,559
Speaker 1: I raised that, Doug to say that college is on

1561
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:50,720
Speaker 1: some level athletic programs. They have devalued the getting in

1562
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:55,800
Speaker 1: part that you and I appreciate because they haven't match

1563
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:59,559
Speaker 1: the commitment with with getting them in to also getting

1564
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:04,000
Speaker 1: them out. So they that's my point, athletics like programs,

1565
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:07,960
Speaker 1: a d S professor, whoever is responsible, you need to

1566
01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,439
Speaker 1: match not only getting them in, make sure you get

1567
01:30:11,479 --> 01:30:14,559
Speaker 1: them out. And you and I can really kind of

1568
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:17,920
Speaker 1: beat the drum about how great a value that is.

1569
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:20,000
Speaker 1: But if they're just getting in and during a year

1570
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:23,559
Speaker 1: and a half and then never getting that paper, I mean,

1571
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:28,000
Speaker 1: really what and and and more importantly the full experience

1572
01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:32,960
Speaker 1: and education, then it really isn't that much of value. No, No,

1573
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:36,240
Speaker 1: it's it's true, all right, last thing, um, and then

1574
01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:37,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna do another one at some point the bear

1575
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:42,840
Speaker 1: in your future. Um, there is a I believe a

1576
01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 1: push and I've heard you talk about G League and um,

1577
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 1: you know you've you've done the done the college thing.

1578
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:53,840
Speaker 1: There seems to be a sense that people are wanting

1579
01:30:53,840 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 1: to get out of the college game and get solely

1580
01:30:56,479 --> 01:30:59,120
Speaker 1: into the pro game. You know, man, you don't want

1581
01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 1: to that college thing. You've you've you've done, You've done,

1582
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 1: You've done the college thing. You've been this, you've played,

1583
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:07,880
Speaker 1: you've been assistant, you've been a head coach, Alomoter, been

1584
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:10,599
Speaker 1: a head coach at Fairfield, You've been you know, assistant

1585
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:15,559
Speaker 1: coach several times over um. Is that a real thing,

1586
01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:19,400
Speaker 1: that there's a kind of a quiet, maybe underground movement

1587
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:22,360
Speaker 1: to move from the college game to the pro game.

1588
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:26,800
Speaker 1: There's absolutely I don't endorse it. And I think if

1589
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 1: you're interested in the G League in the NBA, as

1590
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:32,759
Speaker 1: I am learning from those guys, watching from those guys,

1591
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 1: using that stuff, being open to an opportunity, I don't

1592
01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:39,599
Speaker 1: think it means that you're you're down on the college game,

1593
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 1: but you're one on the right track. And I think

1594
01:31:43,479 --> 01:31:48,040
Speaker 1: it's because and And somebody who's been in this in

1595
01:31:48,080 --> 01:31:51,120
Speaker 1: this landscape, in this space for many years said this

1596
01:31:51,200 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 1: to me. I won't put his name on it, but

1597
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:56,320
Speaker 1: he said, Sydney, basically, the job that we have now

1598
01:31:57,000 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 1: is not the job that we signed up for ten

1599
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:01,760
Speaker 1: years ago. So what is the what? What is the

1600
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:04,680
Speaker 1: job now? But what you're a head coach? What is

1601
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:07,200
Speaker 1: the job now that's different from the job ten fifteen

1602
01:32:07,240 --> 01:32:10,840
Speaker 1: years ago. The job now is recruiting your your roster.

1603
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:16,200
Speaker 1: Uh maybe I was gonna say year, year after year,

1604
01:32:16,280 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 1: but maybe like everythree like every quarter, like every three months,

1605
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 1: literally like making sure you know. It's player retention. And

1606
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:28,320
Speaker 1: it's like literally like that's the job where it used

1607
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:32,759
Speaker 1: to be opportunities. Like you said education development and there's

1608
01:32:32,920 --> 01:32:35,280
Speaker 1: there's development in there, and guys will still talk about it,

1609
01:32:35,320 --> 01:32:38,320
Speaker 1: but it's a player retention, right, I mean, but but

1610
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:41,719
Speaker 1: that how do you It's so hard, right, I mean, listen,

1611
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:44,559
Speaker 1: if you bring a kid off the bench, you know

1612
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:47,360
Speaker 1: you're bringing it off the bench as a freshman, you

1613
01:32:47,439 --> 01:32:48,960
Speaker 1: stand the right to lose him at the end of

1614
01:32:48,960 --> 01:32:52,720
Speaker 1: the year. And then if you play you play kid

1615
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:55,439
Speaker 1: as a freshman, he could be hey, I'm above I'm

1616
01:32:55,479 --> 01:32:59,360
Speaker 1: better than this level. I'm gonna transfer up right. It's

1617
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:02,519
Speaker 1: hard to build culture when it can be a culture

1618
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:05,080
Speaker 1: and guys are nine months on a on a campus.

1619
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:08,120
Speaker 1: But the same people here's the problem. I found. The

1620
01:33:08,200 --> 01:33:11,080
Speaker 1: same people that are pushing, for the most part, for

1621
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:14,559
Speaker 1: kids to be compensated are the same ones that are

1622
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:18,320
Speaker 1: pushing for kids to have the ability to lieve whenever

1623
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:21,760
Speaker 1: they want. And that's that's that's a hard one to

1624
01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:25,800
Speaker 1: explain to somebody like you who has actually been in

1625
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:28,400
Speaker 1: the business and experienced it. So how do you how

1626
01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:29,960
Speaker 1: do you navigate that? How do you how do you

1627
01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:32,320
Speaker 1: how do you handle if you're this are you're in charge?

1628
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:35,840
Speaker 1: How do you handle that? Coaching is really hard because

1629
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:37,720
Speaker 1: kids don't want to be told no, and if they're

1630
01:33:37,720 --> 01:33:42,559
Speaker 1: told no, they're out. They moved. Well, I still think

1631
01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 1: it is. I mean, you gotta let players decide. You

1632
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:49,440
Speaker 1: gotta let families decide if if there are coaches or influences,

1633
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:51,880
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't take that decision. You know. I

1634
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:54,040
Speaker 1: want to give them decision making on the court and

1635
01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:57,200
Speaker 1: their workouts, but not with their own lives. I'm not

1636
01:33:57,240 --> 01:33:59,559
Speaker 1: saying that. So you gotta let them. You gotta let

1637
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:03,439
Speaker 1: them decide. But I do think you know, I think

1638
01:34:03,479 --> 01:34:06,200
Speaker 1: the transfer without sitting out a year, I mean that

1639
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:10,559
Speaker 1: that's a pretty big blow in terms of this, this

1640
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:16,240
Speaker 1: notion of player retention. Um, it's it's where we are,

1641
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:19,760
Speaker 1: but I think it's it's really turned the game upside down,

1642
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:23,559
Speaker 1: you know, just in terms of you know, how will

1643
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:26,240
Speaker 1: it like like I'll tell you, Doug, I wanted to

1644
01:34:26,320 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 1: leave Princeton twice in my career. We didn't want to

1645
01:34:29,520 --> 01:34:32,280
Speaker 1: leave everybody. That's what I'm saying, and I will tell

1646
01:34:32,320 --> 01:34:34,960
Speaker 1: you right now. And it would have been the worst mistake.

1647
01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:36,680
Speaker 1: And you're right, and you and you and you did

1648
01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:39,760
Speaker 1: transfer another and transces have worked out. It would have

1649
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:42,679
Speaker 1: been me the worst decision you know, that I could

1650
01:34:42,720 --> 01:34:45,240
Speaker 1: have made. Here's the biggest thing that nobody ever says.

1651
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:49,479
Speaker 1: Nobody ever says. Okay. I was my junior year at

1652
01:34:49,479 --> 01:34:52,200
Speaker 1: Oklahoma State. I was miserable. We were leading the country

1653
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:55,639
Speaker 1: as systems averaging a double double, and then I got

1654
01:34:55,640 --> 01:34:57,799
Speaker 1: a technical in a game we lost the Port Atlantic.

1655
01:34:58,200 --> 01:35:01,400
Speaker 1: I had eighteen assists, but we lost. And then we

1656
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:04,240
Speaker 1: come out to u c L a only game playing California.

1657
01:35:04,320 --> 01:35:06,880
Speaker 1: My brother and sister are Usilia Luves and I get

1658
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 1: thrown out because I got two teeth in the first half. Um,

1659
01:35:11,560 --> 01:35:14,559
Speaker 1: and then I was in the doghouse, and you know,

1660
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:17,160
Speaker 1: we were playing terribly and I was just in a

1661
01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:19,960
Speaker 1: bad place, and we laying in Las Vegas. I played

1662
01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:22,519
Speaker 1: poorly at create More. My dad at coach under coach.

1663
01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:24,760
Speaker 1: He was at the game and I just I just

1664
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 1: wanted to leave. I wanted to guy, I was gonna

1665
01:35:26,040 --> 01:35:27,559
Speaker 1: go to Utah and played for Rickman Jarish of course

1666
01:35:27,600 --> 01:35:31,240
Speaker 1: would have made everything perfect. And uh and I had

1667
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:33,040
Speaker 1: a great game, and then I was still in the

1668
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:35,200
Speaker 1: doghouse for a couple of games. But then it worked out.

1669
01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:40,360
Speaker 1: And you know, while I've been talking to you, I've

1670
01:35:40,400 --> 01:35:44,840
Speaker 1: gotten a text from Joe Atkins, Bryan mont Noddy does

1671
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:50,320
Speaker 1: Mason I mean, uh and uh, um and Adrian Petersons

1672
01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:54,080
Speaker 1: are four of my teammates. While while we're having this conversation,

1673
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:58,679
Speaker 1: and what no one says is like do once you leave,

1674
01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:03,000
Speaker 1: you're out, You're out. Like I have friends, Pat Gary's

1675
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:04,680
Speaker 1: a great friend of mine, still think he's a good

1676
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:06,840
Speaker 1: friend of mine. I'm still close to frand McCaffrey. But

1677
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:08,439
Speaker 1: like they're not invite me back to Notre Dame to

1678
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:11,880
Speaker 1: for an alumni game, you know, and these dual transfers,

1679
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:15,960
Speaker 1: you have no home. And what people don't understand is like,

1680
01:36:16,040 --> 01:36:18,839
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, a place you spend

1681
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:22,240
Speaker 1: three years of four years, five years in college, that's

1682
01:36:22,240 --> 01:36:26,400
Speaker 1: your home. That's your basketball family. Those are your closest friends, allies,

1683
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:28,960
Speaker 1: guys that Willy meaning your job, tell me, I'll pick

1684
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 1: up the phone. I'll call whoever you want. Right and

1685
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:37,360
Speaker 1: when you like these guys that grad transfer, what's their home? Yeah,

1686
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:40,320
Speaker 1: it's interesting, that's that's that's it. You know, I've never

1687
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:44,280
Speaker 1: literally have never thought about that, just that added piece

1688
01:36:44,360 --> 01:36:47,200
Speaker 1: of what was the kid's name who had the eye

1689
01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:53,320
Speaker 1: tattoos on his shoulders? Who played for you? Yeah? Really

1690
01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:57,439
Speaker 1: good player, really good, talenty talented player. But he leaves

1691
01:36:57,520 --> 01:36:59,760
Speaker 1: and where he transferred to him trying to he went

1692
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:02,719
Speaker 1: to you Mass for a year, you know, I guess

1693
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:04,920
Speaker 1: he sat out and played a year at U Mass

1694
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:08,280
Speaker 1: and then he transferred and after that I went to Wagner.

1695
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:13,040
Speaker 1: Finished up at Wagner, right, So hey, man, where'd you

1696
01:37:13,040 --> 01:37:16,599
Speaker 1: go to school? Well? You know? Right and right again?

1697
01:37:16,680 --> 01:37:19,400
Speaker 1: And he had he stayed with you, I mean, he

1698
01:37:19,479 --> 01:37:20,720
Speaker 1: might have been the all time in his core A

1699
01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:23,479
Speaker 1: fair for like that kid. He can score, he really could.

1700
01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:25,759
Speaker 1: He was he was on, he was tracking, he was gonna,

1701
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:29,719
Speaker 1: he was gonna. Yeah he wasna. So so the would

1702
01:37:29,720 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 1: you rather be? Or there was the was the kid's name?

1703
01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:38,240
Speaker 1: Nate uh Sut felt that no, Natels quarterback Nate um

1704
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:44,360
Speaker 1: got the kid that went from Bucknell to Kentucky. Still stand, Hi, Sistina, Right,

1705
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:48,120
Speaker 1: He's having an amazing career at Bucknell. They go into

1706
01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:50,560
Speaker 1: the n s A tournament, but and he goes to

1707
01:37:50,640 --> 01:37:53,160
Speaker 1: Kentucky and early on the season he starts, and then

1708
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:56,120
Speaker 1: eventually they don't start him because like he was a

1709
01:37:56,520 --> 01:37:59,439
Speaker 1: he was a great low major player, a major player,

1710
01:37:59,800 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 1: but that super elite high major and they just he

1711
01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:07,280
Speaker 1: didn't fit. Right, does he he was a great player

1712
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:09,840
Speaker 1: at buck Now he really was? Because he does he's

1713
01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:13,360
Speaker 1: buck Now home. Is he part of the Kentucky family?

1714
01:38:13,920 --> 01:38:19,479
Speaker 1: I guess right, I guess it's a weird thing. This

1715
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:22,559
Speaker 1: isn't a cop out. I genuinely mean this. There's been

1716
01:38:22,600 --> 01:38:24,840
Speaker 1: so much change in college basketball. I was on the

1717
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:27,720
Speaker 1: rules committee some years ago, whether it's rules, whether it's

1718
01:38:28,000 --> 01:38:31,000
Speaker 1: and and I l all these things going around the game.

1719
01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:35,920
Speaker 1: I think for like a couple of years, like if

1720
01:38:35,960 --> 01:38:38,839
Speaker 1: there could just be not not and then we have COVID,

1721
01:38:39,920 --> 01:38:45,080
Speaker 1: if we could just not have any changes and just

1722
01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:48,800
Speaker 1: just sit tight for like a couple of years and

1723
01:38:48,920 --> 01:38:51,800
Speaker 1: see how the dust settles. Because as you're talking, and

1724
01:38:51,800 --> 01:38:56,360
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about your your very last question, kids are

1725
01:38:56,360 --> 01:38:59,560
Speaker 1: gonna need to see the impact of these different transfers

1726
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:01,920
Speaker 1: and just what you're saying, and go, you know what,

1727
01:39:02,720 --> 01:39:05,400
Speaker 1: just what you literally what you say. Maybe the grass

1728
01:39:05,439 --> 01:39:08,200
Speaker 1: isn't greener, Maybe I want to figure maybe I do

1729
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:11,120
Speaker 1: want a home. I've seen other people bounce around and

1730
01:39:11,160 --> 01:39:14,200
Speaker 1: they don't have a home. Just well, there's been so

1731
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:17,360
Speaker 1: many changes in this game. If you can you and

1732
01:39:17,439 --> 01:39:20,360
Speaker 1: I know we're so close to this game, think of

1733
01:39:20,439 --> 01:39:22,760
Speaker 1: the amount of change that's happened in three, four or

1734
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:25,679
Speaker 1: five years. I think we need to let the dust settle,

1735
01:39:26,160 --> 01:39:31,000
Speaker 1: step back, see what the new landscape is, and react

1736
01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:36,720
Speaker 1: to that in a more cerebral and less reactive way. Um.

1737
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:38,720
Speaker 1: It sounds like a cop out, but I actually believe No,

1738
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:41,880
Speaker 1: it's actually really, really profound, And I agree with you.

1739
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:44,680
Speaker 1: It's a lot like in life or sometimes you just

1740
01:39:44,680 --> 01:39:47,360
Speaker 1: need to let things breathe instead of constantly try and

1741
01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:52,280
Speaker 1: fix them. You go the better set better. It's you're

1742
01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:55,320
Speaker 1: dadding onto. Hey, this this was amazing. I hope you're well.

1743
01:39:56,040 --> 01:39:57,439
Speaker 1: M I don't want to do do I want to do

1744
01:39:57,520 --> 01:39:58,920
Speaker 1: more of it, but I don't want to steal all

1745
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:02,839
Speaker 1: of your time. I appreciate and it was You're awesome

1746
01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:06,000
Speaker 1: and let's talk offline and catch up again soon on

1747
01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 1: the spot. God bless man, take care. I appreciate the opportunity,

1748
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:14,479
Speaker 1: Do you take care of Thanks that ye m my,

1749
01:40:14,520 --> 01:40:19,799
Speaker 1: thanks to Sidney Johnson. That was amazing. Um, I'm watching

1750
01:40:19,840 --> 01:40:22,920
Speaker 1: this Lakers team and we're realizing I think the flaws

1751
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:27,200
Speaker 1: that we wondered about. Uh. I don't know how badly

1752
01:40:27,280 --> 01:40:30,160
Speaker 1: sore Lebron's ankle is if they're just managing his minutes,

1753
01:40:30,720 --> 01:40:33,639
Speaker 1: but I do think that you're seeing it's it's still

1754
01:40:33,640 --> 01:40:38,800
Speaker 1: some miss misaligned parts. I do believe that Frank's a

1755
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:41,120
Speaker 1: very good coach and he can adjust and he'll probably

1756
01:40:41,120 --> 01:40:43,320
Speaker 1: play Russ with the second group. The problem with Russ

1757
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:46,400
Speaker 1: for the second group means he's playing with Carmelo. Yeah,

1758
01:40:46,400 --> 01:40:49,920
Speaker 1: that's There's there's a lot there, but maybe that's maybe

1759
01:40:49,920 --> 01:40:52,240
Speaker 1: that's the fix. They also don't have as good as

1760
01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:55,000
Speaker 1: first group without him because they don't have Trevor Eza.

1761
01:40:55,120 --> 01:40:59,040
Speaker 1: They you know, they haven't had uh Taylan Horton Tucker.

1762
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 1: I know he's a bench player, but it changes things.

1763
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:03,479
Speaker 1: And you know, Wayne Ellington's just now coming back, so

1764
01:41:03,479 --> 01:41:05,200
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot to it. As they figured out

1765
01:41:05,240 --> 01:41:08,519
Speaker 1: with the Lakers, but early returns are not good. Chemistry

1766
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:12,920
Speaker 1: is not great, shooting is not great. And if we

1767
01:41:12,960 --> 01:41:16,920
Speaker 1: remember last two times Russell was brought in, the team

1768
01:41:16,960 --> 01:41:19,799
Speaker 1: was supposed to get better and got worse. Happened in Houston,

1769
01:41:20,080 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 1: happened in d C. So we'll see, we'll see. Um,

1770
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:27,640
Speaker 1: that was a good pod. That was like, I love

1771
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:30,080
Speaker 1: my brains kind of stimulated. I hope yours was as well.

1772
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:34,160
Speaker 1: I remember listen to The The Doug Gotli Show daily three

1773
01:41:34,200 --> 01:41:36,720
Speaker 1: to six Eastern twelve to three Pacific on your I

1774
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:39,080
Speaker 1: Heart radio app Fox Sports Radio series XEM. I think

1775
01:41:39,120 --> 01:41:42,880
Speaker 1: it's t sevento oh three. I appreciate you listen. I'm

1776
01:41:42,920 --> 01:42:00,360
Speaker 1: Doug Gotli. This is all ball