WEBVTT - 5: The Immediate Aftermath 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:12.119 I'm just a fool. We fear welcome to death, grief 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:27.080 and other ship we don't discuss. I'm Kyle McMahon. I 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.960 woke up early and I immediately thought of her. I 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.400 actually could feel her with me. It's not a feeling 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.479 I can explain easily, but I just felt her presence 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:40.640 with me, as if she was in the room next 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.680 to me. In fact, I felt her presence so strongly 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.120 that I actually thought to myself, I wonder if she's 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.959 slipped out of consciousness and now she's just with me 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:56.400 right now. I had read somewhere in my Google marathoning 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:00.040 that towards the end of life, some may slip have 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.440 been and out of consciousness, And in some other readings 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.920 that I found, I read that sometimes it's believed that 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:10.360 they can put their conscious in another place, almost like 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:15.360 they're transporting somewhere else. And I realized that sounds unbelievable, 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.880 but there are numerous accounts of people saying just that. 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.880 And since I could feel her with me now, that's 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:28.119 what went through my mind then, Like I did every 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.440 morning since the day she was diagnosed, I texted her 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:38.520 good morning. Immediately my dad called me, and I knew Kyle. 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:45.680 She passed, and there was a complete and total silence 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:58.080 for a moment. Okay, I said, what do you say 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.600 to that? My entire world had ripped open with those 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:06.760 three words. No matter how prepared you think you are, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.880 you aren't. The world has suddenly become a darker place. 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:15.200 My light had burnt out. The worst thing for me 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.720 that could ever happen has just happened. And strangely, I 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:23.000 was calm well, I knew it was coming. I was 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:27.240 still in shock. When you actually hear those words, it 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:41.320 knocks you off your feet. She passed. Dad asked me 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:42.880 to give him a bit of time to get her 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:46.760 cleaned up before I came over. I hung up with him, 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.440 and then I calmly went downstairs and went out on 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.520 the balcony with Blue, just trying to process at all. 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.239 I didn't even know what to think, what to do. 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.480 I was in a fog. A few minutes later, Aunt 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.040 Kim k out on the balcony and I just immediately 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:08.960 blurted out to her. Mom passed. Kim immediately began sobbing 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.040 and ran into the living room, falling down on the ground, 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.839 supporting herself on the chair. I went over to her 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.679 and hugged her. She was crying out, not my Joanne, No, 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:28.399 not her, not my Joanne. All I could say was, Kim, 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:32.959 she's not in pain anymore. And I was telling myself 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:38.360 that too. I was trying to justify it, explain it away, 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.320 make it not feel like there's a giant knife in 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:48.760 my heart and I'm just bleeding out. At this point, 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.680 I still wasn't really crying, although tears were welling up 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.520 over Kim's devastation, I think I was still in shock. 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.440 Kim and I hugged, and then we both cried together. 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:07.120 This was hard, really really hard, harder than you can 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:11.680 ever prepare yourself for it. Mom had touched so many 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:14.600 lives that this was bound to be a rough ride 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:20.680 for a lot of people. After a while, Kim got 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.760 ready to go over to my parents, and before she left, 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.120 she asked me if I wanted to go alone or 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.599 ride with her. I needed some time, so I told 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:34.640 her I would meet her there. I took a really 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.120 long time to get ready. In fact, I took so 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:42.000 long that I wasn't sure if I'd ever actually be ready. 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.320 How does one get ready to see their mom who 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.520 had just passed away? Does it matter what you wear? 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.479 Does it matter what you look like? You fix your hair? 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.799 Do I switch out of this T shirt into something else? 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.200 All of these thoughts were running through my mind. What 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:03.239 do I do? I guess in reality, in many ways, 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.720 I was simply the laying seeing her like that. I 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.120 would have done anything in that moment not to be 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:17.080 in that position, but I was. When I finally made 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.520 my way over there, Aunt Kathy and Kim were already there. 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.560 Dad was coming outside and he had gave me this 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.479 giant hug and kiss, and we held that hug for 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.479 a few moments. I asked him where he was going. 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.159 He said he was going to take Mom's car to 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.720 get air in the tires because he's gonna start driving it. 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.080 And at first I thought that was odd, but then 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.520 I realized he probably needs some time to get away 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:46.000 from the house and the entire situation, and he was 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:50.080 doing it constructively by getting something done that would keep 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:56.039 one of his attachments with Mom going. As Dad drove 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.800 off in Mom's car, I went into my parents as 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.080 I had a thousand and times before, but this time 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:12.839 was different. It just felt different. This time. It felt cold, uninviting, sad. 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:20.280 Something was obviously very very wrong, and I knew just 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:28.720 what it was. My Aunt Kathie and Kim were upstairs 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.680 with my uncle Tom and my cousin t J. But 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.560 I couldn't go upstairs yet. I couldn't walk up those 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:39.279 stairs that I had done so many times before where 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.640 I was greeted with her smile or kiss or a hug, 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.799 because that smile wasn't going to be there this time. 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:53.120 That smile wasn't gonna be there anymore. And that's something 0:06:53.160 --> 0:07:00.000 that I just couldn't face yet. Of course, the reality 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.600 of the situation is that it's something I did have 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:07.680 to face. I could go upstairs and see her where 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:09.840 I could give up the last chance to see my 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:15.120 mom in our house. I prolonged it. I sat on 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.480 the couch and my parents living room in an absolute days. 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.679 I was simply a shell. My physical body was there, 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:27.200 but my mind wasn't. It was like I was literally 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.360 unable to process this, Like my mind couldn't handle it. 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:46.080 It had to shut off. At some point, Aunt Kathy 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:48.960 or Kim had called me from upstairs, and I went 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.559 up to my mom's extra room and I made sure 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.640 that my eyes didn't go towards my parents room, where 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.320 my mom was. I couldn't face it. I could not 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:02.440 see her like that, not yet. I sat in my 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:06.920 mom's extra room and sat there with my aunts, told 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:08.680 them that I couldn't do it. I just couldn't go 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.440 in there yet. They gave me words of advice and 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.880 love and support and comfort, and I don't exactly remember 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.000 what they were, but I knew that I was going 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:25.080 to have to do this. After a little while longer 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.560 of delaying, I got up with my family and I 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:32.520 went into my parents room and I laid on the 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:38.920 bed next to my mom, and I cried hysterically. I 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.520 was screaming. I had never cried so hard in my life. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:49.600 It was uncontrollable. It was primal, It was pure emotion. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:56.280 This is not how this was supposed to be. This 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:01.359 was not how this is supposed to happen. I couldn't 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:11.520 stop sobbing. I was absolutely hysterical. Kyle Han, they're pulling 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.760 up and you're gonna pass out. My aunt Cathy said 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.200 she was referring to the funeral home professionals who we're 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:23.280 gonna take mom. I don't remember which, but one of 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.480 my family members had come over to help me up 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.679 off the bed, and Aunt Cathy wasn't being rude or 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:33.480 and considerate. I was literally crying so hysterically that I 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.720 was within a minute or two at max of actually 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:43.040 passing out from wailing and sobbing so hysterically. I didn't 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:47.160 know what to do. My entire world had broken apart, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.000 my heart had been ripped from my chest. And now 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.839 the wonderful gentleman from the funeral home we're coming up 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:59.800 the stairs to take Mom away. What do I do now? 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:06.360 Where do I go? Do I go home? Like, go 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:11.760 somewhere else? What am I supposed to do? Now? For 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.680 the first time in my life, Mom wasn't on this 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:20.199 earth with me, and just like that, the world had 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:26.800 become darker, and just like that, the world was unsafe, 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:58.320 and just like that, Mom was God. After some time 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:02.319 crying with and talk king with my family, I eventually 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:06.320 went home. I had been renting Kim's house, and now 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.640 that my mom had passed just a few months before, 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.240 Kim and moved back into her home after living with 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:17.679 my mom for years to assist her. Kim and I 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:19.720 met back at the house and we talked for a 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:25.640 bit tears, of course, kind of confusion. What do you 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:31.920 say you just kind of exist? But I needed sleep. 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:37.840 I was so drained, so stunned, so confused. I hadn't 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:42.160 even processed it yet. Really, I couldn't process a world 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.600 without my mom. It's not something that was registering with 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:51.280 my brain or my heart. Him and I finished talking 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.880 and hugged and kissed, and I went into my room 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.680 with Blue and got in my bed under the covers 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.000 and turned the lights out, and I just slept for hours. 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.480 Dad eventually called and I woke up and picked up 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.040 earlier at my parents house. We had talked about planning 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:15.160 on having dinner together, so he was calling about that. 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.200 He came over to our house and we ordered pizza 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:24.600 and Kim and me and my dad. We just eate together, 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.840 my first meal without my mom in this world. I 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.280 know it seems silly, but everything I was doing I 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:37.320 couldn't help but think that it's been four hours since 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:41.760 Mom has been gone. It's been eight hours. Everything I 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:47.360 was doing or thinking was in relation to Mom. This 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.400 was uncharted waters for me. I didn't know a world 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:55.440 without Mom. I didn't want to know a world without Mom. 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.520 But here I was forced to live in that world. 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:05.160 My phone was ringing constantly as news spread about Mom. 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:14.920 Phone calls, text messages, tweets, Instagram messages, Facebook messenger emails, voicemails. 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:17.960 I wanted to talk to every single one of them, 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:22.200 but I couldn't talk to any of them. I couldn't 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:25.840 talk about it. It made it too real. What do 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.920 you say, she's gone? What else is there to say? 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.320 I try to send a text back as I could, 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.240 thanking them for their support and love. I'm sure I 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.640 missed responding to every single one of them, and I'm 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.560 sorry for that, but I was just trying to survive, 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:51.600 minute by minute, second by second. The next couple of days, 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:55.080 I continued to just go through the motions. I was 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.760 obviously in shock and disbelief. None of it felt real 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.440 at all. It felt like Mom was at the hospital 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:07.760 and she'd be home soon. There's no other context that 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.600 my brain could relate to. That's that's what it was 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.560 for me. It was just like Mom was at the hospital, 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:21.840 but life just wasn't the same. Life is harder, Life 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:31.040 is scarier. A few days before she had passed, Mom 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.160 had asked me to sing the rose for her at 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.720 her funeral. She had always loved when I sang, and 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:41.040 she loved that song so much that in her final 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.240 days she asked me to write her eulogy, and she 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:51.680 asked me to sing the Rose. I recorded me singing 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:53.840 it for her into my phone and sent it to her, 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.600 and my dad said that she would just keep playing 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:01.160 it over and over and over again. Yeah. I had 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.200 asked my good friend Jordan Demerist, who's an incredibly talented musician, 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.920 to play guitar for me, because I certainly couldn't do 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.200 that and saying and the eulogy at the funeral. So 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.200 he met me at my parents house to rehearse a 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.880 guitar version of the song. Dad had said he'd like 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.320 to sit in with us if that was okay, and 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.600 of course that wasn't a problem. I wanted to spend 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.360 time with Dad too. One half of my two parents 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.960 had just been torn from me, torn from my life, 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.160 torn from my world, and I'm terrified of losing the other. 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.240 And of course I knew how important it was for 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.520 Dad and I to remain close and to lean on 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.440 each other through the pain of Mom's passing, not just 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:49.000 today but for the rest of our lives. This is 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.440 gonna leave a scar, This is gonna leave a really 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:57.080 big scar, and Dad and I would have each other 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:02.120 to lean on doing it this way. We got to 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.440 sit in my parents living room that I had sat 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.320 in thousands of times before, and I'd be singing as 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:11.760 Mom would love, especially as it's a song that she picked. 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.040 Jordan and I rehearsed a few times, and Dad said 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.560 quietly listening in the chair he always sat in. I 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.440 sat on the couch Mom always sat in, and we 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:29.600 ran through the song a few times. I thought to myself, 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.560 I have no idea how I'm gonna pull this off, 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.480 but I'm going to pull it off. I have to 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:42.920 for her. Over the next few days, we were getting 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.680 things ready for the private viewing we were having, as 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:49.320 well as for the funeral. Thankfully, there wasn't a ton 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.480 to get done because my parents had long planned what 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.160 they wanted for their end of life and how it 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.280 was to all be done, and that really seemed to 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.440 make it so much easier. To this day, I'm not 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.080 even sure how much of a part of that process 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.600 I really was. I don't remember. I remember doing some 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.399 odds and ends for this or that, but it really 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.440 is just one big blur, like I wasn't even there. 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.840 I remember the day after she passed, I had to 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:23.000 write her obituary. I must have written it twenty times. 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:28.600 It took hours and hours and hours. I remember stopping 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.560 and saying, how am I writing this? Oh? My writing 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:37.400 mom's obituary? This has to be a nightmare. But even 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:42.240 if it was my literal nightmare, and I was living 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.359 in that nightmare that I'm hoping to wake up from, 0:17:46.400 --> 0:18:12.600 still that obituary had to be written on this morning 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:18.000 in March. Joanne McMahon passed away peacefully at her home. 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.160 She was born to James and Catherine. She attended Corpus 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:27.439 Christie Grade School and Conrad High School. She worked for 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.520 decades at St. Francis Hospital before starting her own business 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:37.280 teaching dance. Joanne was a strong woman with a huge 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.840 heart who loved nothing more than to be with her 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:45.639 family and friends. Her sense of humor, her love of dance, 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.160 and her selfless nature were on exhibit by the many 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:57.600 dances she organized for charity. Her intuition and forethought were unmatched. 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:03.920 She was a devoted daughter, a devoted wife, exemplary mother, 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:11.520 loving sister, aunt, cousin and best friend. Always generous to 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:16.520 a fault. She loved going to musicals at Three Little 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:20.040 Bakers in the Playhouse, and of course she loved oldies, 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:26.760 line dancing. She loved all things Irish, and she supported 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.640 her husband throughout his naval career. Her home with her 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:36.280 beloved husband, Captain Don United States Navy was always open 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.240 to family and the numerous close friends who were also 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.520 her family. Their son Kyle, was the joy of her 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:48.440 life and always the center of her world. Joanne loved 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:53.680 music of all types, especially oldies. She enjoyed scrap booking 0:19:53.880 --> 0:20:01.040 and genealogy. She was a wonderful interior decorator. Joanne was 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:08.080 preceded in death by her parents, your grandmother and grandfather. 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:13.399 She has survived by her husband, her son, her sisters, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:21.480 her brother, her nephews, her niece, her great nephew, her 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:26.720 great niece, her aunt, and her second son Jason and 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.200 their son j j as well as numerous cousins, her 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:39.440 grand dog Blue, and many many close friends. In lieu 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:44.200 of flowers, please consider a donation in Joanne's memory the 0:20:44.280 --> 0:21:09.240 Pancreatic Cancer Action Network. How How am I going to 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:15.800 get through this? How am I gonna survive this? How 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:20.160 do you handle grief like this. How do you get 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:27.239 through the day, How do you get through tomorrow? How 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:32.719 do you get through at all? I wanted to know 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.320 how do we do these things? How does anybody do 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:41.320 it when you lose somebody you love so much? When 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:45.040 we come back, I speak with Dr ken Doka, Senior 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.840 Vice President for Grief Programs at the Hospice Foundation of America. 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.880 We dive into grief and how you can get through 0:21:53.600 --> 0:22:04.840 when we come back. Dr Kenneth Doca is a licensed 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.600 mental health counselor and one of the country's pre eminent 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:11.879 experts and grief. He is the Senior Vice President for 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:16.280 Grief Programs for the Hospice Foundation of America and one 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.840 of the authors of the text Dying and Death, Life 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:23.400 and Living. He's also written books like When We Die, 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:28.800 Extraordinary Experiences at Life's End, Living with Grief, and Grief 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:33.160 as a Journey finding your pathway through loss. I wanted 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:36.920 to talk to Dr Doka because of his wide swath 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:42.080 of knowledge on grief. Over decades, he has studied grief 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:46.760 and grieving and loss, and with the Hospice Foundation of America, 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:51.359 has stared it directly in the face. And Dr Doka 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:55.679 is a pretty happy man. I traveled to Poughkeepsie, New 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.800 York to speak with him, and he just has a 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:04.119 gentle manner about him. So my first question, of course, 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:06.919 was how do you do this? You know, how do 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:10.600 you talk with people about such heavy topics about their 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:13.639 lives and how do you do it while staying positive 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:18.360 and quote unquote normal. Here's what Dr Doka had to say. 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:20.760 I guess we can always define what normal is. That 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:23.080 spent a lot of time looking at that one. I 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:24.600 think if you're going to survive in the field, you 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:27.920 have to develop that, and I think, um, some good 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:29.840 things have come out of it. I think I'm much 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:33.280 more sensitive to the issue of unfinished business, you know, 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:37.399 so if if I have a fight with somebody, I 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:40.280 really try to resolve it, which was always a family value. 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:42.480 Right on the bat, I don't want to leave a 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:45.760 lot of unfinished business. I uh, just was talking to 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:49.240 a client whose sister had died. Um, they hadn't spoken 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:51.199 to each other in fifteen years, and now she had 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:54.240 a lot of regrets. I've never been in that situation. 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:56.719 And then the second thing is it it kind of 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:01.560 really allows you to understand, um, the fragility of time. 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:05.359 So you know, I think in many ways it's enhanced it. Uh. 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:07.200 There's a film we used to watch. I used to 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:09.800 watch with my classes about a guy named Albro who's 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:12.200 who's dying, and he talks about the fact that he's 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:14.960 dying in his late fifties. He just really worked his 0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:17.720 whole life and he never did anything. He was always 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:19.560 going to do it when he retired, you know, and 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:23.160 that I always remember that film. And uh, he bitterly says, 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:24.800 what did I do instead of going to a movie? 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:27.439 I cleaned the house. So I got somebody else to 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:30.520 clean the house and I'll go to the movie. Yeah. Yeah. 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:34.000 So you're an author of you know, many books that 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:37.640 you've done. You know, you're a public speaker, you're an 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:41.520 expert in this field. For grief. One of your books, 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:43.600 and I love this, one of your books talks about 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:47.800 how grief is not a linear five step or whatever 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:51.080 it is seven step process and you know, and then 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:54.399 it's done. In fact, your book is called Grief is 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:57.760 a Journey. Can can you talk a little bit about that? 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:01.880 What does that mean that grief is a journey? One 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:03.520 of the you know, in in many ways, we owe 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:07.760 Kubler Ross a great debt. She was the first. She really, 0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:09.840 even though she wasn't the first person doing research in 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:12.840 the field, hers was the first popular book that came 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:16.600 out and sold to a wide audience and broadened our 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:19.960 conversation about death and dying. Uh. And actually Coubler Ross 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:22.440 wasn't even talking about grief. She was talking about dying 0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:25.800 the dying process. And I think she taught us some 0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:29.000 important lessons. One is to listen to dying people, and 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:31.919 the other one is, uh, you know, not to pretend 0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:35.119 that people don't die. Um. But I think the stage 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:37.600 theory ultimately did us a little bit of a disservice 0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:41.080 because it's become so popular now and it was applied 0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:43.040 to grief where it was never meant to be applied 0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:46.119 at least in the beginning, and has become almost a 0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:51.159 kind of grief is very individual, very unique to every person. 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:55.440 We all have very distinct relationships. Um. I don't know 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:58.439 about the relationship between your family or you know, but 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:00.360 if you have a mother and a father, you may 0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:03.080 grieve their deaths differently because they had different roles in 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:05.960 your life, different places in your life. So I like 0:26:06.000 --> 0:26:09.240 to say it's a very very individual journey and you know, 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:11.200 there's no You're going to go through a lot of 0:26:11.359 --> 0:26:16.800 different kinds of reactions, some emotional anger, said is guilt? 0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:21.440 When have you some cognitive some behavioral that you physically 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:24.400 affect your spiritually. Uh, And each of us will have 0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:27.919 our own set of manifestations and will go through our 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:31.600 journey in our own way, in our own time. I 0:26:31.640 --> 0:26:34.960 love that so much. You know, it's it's uh, just 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:39.680 the truth. It's a truth bomb. How you know, how 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:42.760 do you know when it is healthy grieving or or 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:46.200 it's unhealthy grieving? If there even is such a thing 0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:49.439 as unhealthy grieving? How do you know if this is 0:26:49.480 --> 0:26:52.520 healthy or not? Yeah, not words that I prefer to use. 0:26:52.600 --> 0:26:56.359 But certainly we can talk about a process of what 0:26:56.840 --> 0:27:00.439 most people can typically expect in their grieving, And certainly 0:27:00.480 --> 0:27:03.360 we can also talk about the fact that grieving can 0:27:03.400 --> 0:27:08.240 morph into depression, It can morph into a disorder, adjustment, disorder, separation, 0:27:08.320 --> 0:27:11.879 anxiety can morph into a lot of different things. And again, 0:27:11.920 --> 0:27:15.440 to me, the key signs are that for most people, 0:27:15.560 --> 0:27:18.560 I would say, the I look at grief is kind 0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:21.360 of a roller coaster. You have to be careful with that. Uh, 0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:22.960 you know. I always joke with my class when I 0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:26.880 talked grief counseling about being careful on metaphors. So if 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:29.199 I say to you, have you ever been on a 0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:31.760 roller coaster before? And you said I love them as 0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:34.080 a kid, I'd say, yeah, well, grief is kind of 0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:35.880 a roller coaster. You're gonna have good days, you're gonna 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:38.439 have bad days, You're gonna have ups and downs. But 0:27:38.480 --> 0:27:40.560 then if you said to me, no, I was dreadful. 0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:44.000 I never scared the life out of me, I would say, 0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:46.280 what grief is like a roller coaster, I'd use another metaphor, 0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:49.520 But here's what I will be looking for using that 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:55.520 roller coaster metaphor. Most people, over time, say maybe a year, 0:27:55.680 --> 0:27:58.800 maybe two, say I still have my ups and downs. 0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:02.280 They're not as severe as they were a year ago. 0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:04.920 They don't last as long, they don't go as far 0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:07.879 down as they used to. And that to me is 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:11.280 a pretty saying saying I'm doing well. The other thing, 0:28:11.359 --> 0:28:14.280 and I think the most important thing is, you know, 0:28:14.480 --> 0:28:17.560 after a period of time, are you able to function 0:28:17.640 --> 0:28:20.479 your key worlds again? Are you able to you know, 0:28:20.560 --> 0:28:23.600 go back to work, go back to school. Um, you 0:28:23.600 --> 0:28:25.720 know it may not have the same pleasure for you, 0:28:26.359 --> 0:28:28.600 but you're still doing that, and that I think is 0:28:28.600 --> 0:28:31.600 an important sign. If you can't really function after a 0:28:31.680 --> 0:28:34.480 period of time, that really says you should get help. 0:28:34.520 --> 0:28:37.680 That really certainly if you're using, if you're doing self 0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:41.680 destructive things or other destructive things, that's a sign. So 0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:44.440 there are a variety of different signs of that grief 0:28:44.480 --> 0:28:48.240 has gone into more complicated forms and you should seek 0:28:48.280 --> 0:28:50.360