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Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and we'll get to the Vince McMahon

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Speaker 1: episodes in a second. I wanted to let you all

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Speaker 1: know that for the fourth year in a row, we

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Speaker 1: are doing our fundraiser for the Portland Diaper Bank. Behind

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Speaker 1: the Bastards supporters have been helping to fund the Portland

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Speaker 1: Diaper Bank since twenty twenty and bought millions of diapers

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Speaker 1: for people who really need them. So if you go

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Speaker 1: to go fundme and type in bTB fundraiser for PDX

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Speaker 1: Diaper Bank, or just type in bTB fundraiser Diaper Bank,

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Speaker 1: go fund me into Google anything like that, you will

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Speaker 1: find it. So please go fund me bTB Fundraiser for

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Speaker 1: Portland Diaper Bank. Help us raise the money that these

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Speaker 1: people need to get diapers to folks who need them desperately.

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Speaker 1: What's vincent, my McMahons, And that's great, Yeah, courageous, courageous.

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Speaker 1: This is Behind the Master. It's a podcast about the

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Speaker 1: worst people in all of history, and today I've got

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Speaker 1: two McMahons here to talk with me about. Vince McMahon,

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Speaker 1: did you did that work?

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you something, brother, that's the gotten I'm

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Speaker 2: showing baby from the internet.

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Speaker 3: Good news, Sean baby, we will be talking about Hulk

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Speaker 3: Cogan today.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Hm, let me tell you some dude.

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Speaker 2: My name's Tom Rayman. Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 1: And do you do you both have a lump of

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Speaker 1: scar tissue in your asses from injecting steroids the size

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Speaker 1: of a softball.

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Speaker 2: I do, and several on my forehead from cutting it

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Speaker 2: up with raisin lights.

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Speaker 3: Oh you know a brother. Yeah, yeah, my forehead looks

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Speaker 3: like a grotesque topocryphal map that looks like a look

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Speaker 3: Abdul of the butcher.

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Speaker 1: We call that the hulkster. When you can, when you

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Speaker 1: can read, and braille on my forehead scars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you might not be, brother. No one knows about it.

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Speaker 1: Uh, Terry Terry bolea Hulk's real name.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: When I was a little little kid, you know, before

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Speaker 1: I made my friend and in the Attitude era, I

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Speaker 1: was not a fan of wrestling because I don't think

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Speaker 1: we got any of the channels that it was on.

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Speaker 1: But I loved Hull Cogan because I would watch almost

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Speaker 1: every single day when I was like sitting in the

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Speaker 1: back room of the donut shop where my parents worked.

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Speaker 1: The movie Suburban Commando, of course, hell yeah, absolutely a

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Speaker 1: fucking legendary.

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Speaker 3: I have long stretches of that movie memorized.

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Speaker 1: Hule Cogan. So we are back for part three. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about Vince Senior still because he is still the

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Speaker 1: one running the wrestling business. When we left off, Vince

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Speaker 1: Junior had just started using the name Vince McMahon as

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Speaker 1: he got sent to a military school, possibly for being

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Speaker 1: too racist to be in an integrated high school, but

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Speaker 1: it's unclear.

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Speaker 2: He's so more likely than him beating up a kuma

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Speaker 2: te full of marines.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that is probably true. You have to separate him

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Speaker 3: from the general population. After that, he's far too damy

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Speaker 3: interest So Vince was well regarded. Vince Senior was well regarded,

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Speaker 3: as I said, in the national wrestling business. His company

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Speaker 3: was an affiliate of the NWA, the big wrestling organizer

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Speaker 3: union that ran most of the country, but he wasn't

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Speaker 3: a member at first, and when he became one, he

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Speaker 3: very quickly fell behind on his dues and threatened to resign.

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Speaker 3: He seems to have understood the value of such an organization,

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Speaker 3: but disliked the fact that being a member of it

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Speaker 3: would mean he had to inevitably seed some of his

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Speaker 3: control over how storylines of his wrestlers proceeded. Vince Senior

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Speaker 3: was also different from most of the other promoters and

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Speaker 3: owners across the country. While while his competitors generally booked

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Speaker 3: technical wrestlers above all else, guys who were really good

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Speaker 3: at kind of the choreography of ringwork, Vince Senior grew

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Speaker 3: increasingly obsessed with bringing in giant, muscle bound monsters and

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Speaker 3: was willing to sacrifice ring skill for having the absolute

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Speaker 3: biggest dudes that he could hire. Now, this actually worked

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Speaker 3: out really well for everyone for a while, because by

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Speaker 3: this point the government had slapped the wrestling industry with

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Speaker 3: some anti trust regulations, which meant that owners had to

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Speaker 3: let their play their wrestlers travel around the country more

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Speaker 3: or less at will. This was great for everybody because

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Speaker 3: it means that audiences got a lot of choice and variety,

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Speaker 3: and even the whims of a guy like Vince Senior

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Speaker 3: couldn't exercise total control even in the region.

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Speaker 2: That he owned.

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Speaker 1: So Vince preferred to hire muscle bound, giant guys, and

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Speaker 1: because they got to start with him, those giant muscle

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Speaker 1: freaks would get to travel around the country and wrestle

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Speaker 1: at other places. But also Vince would have to hire

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Speaker 1: people who came in from other regions of the country,

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Speaker 1: so he got a lot of technical wrestlers. It worked

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Speaker 1: out really well for people who like to watch wrestling, right,

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Speaker 1: You got a lot of variety in the kind of

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Speaker 1: people who were, you know, taking part in wrestling matches.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty two, Vince Senior wanted to keep the

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Speaker 1: National Championship belt on his champion, nature Boy Buddy Rogers.

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Speaker 1: And I believe Rick Flair also gets called nature boy later, right,

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Speaker 1: isn't that he sure does? Yeah, yeah, he's sure. There's

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Speaker 1: a couple of nature boys in wrestling history, is what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. At this point, nature Boy Buddy Rogers, who's

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Speaker 1: Vince Senior's wrestler. He wants to keep the belt on him,

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Speaker 1: but the cartel, the NWA, has other plans. And there's

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Speaker 1: this big dispute between the cartel, who's like, we want

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Speaker 1: to give this to Luthez, you know, who's their big wrestler,

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Speaker 1: and Vince Senior, who's like, no, I want to keep

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Speaker 1: the belt on my guy. And this argument between the

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Speaker 1: NWA and between Vince Senior's kind of wrestling syndicate actually

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Speaker 1: puts the future of Kfabe at risk. For a while,

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Speaker 1: there was a fear that Capital Wrestling, Vince Senior's company,

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Speaker 1: might take the belt so that they could keep it

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Speaker 1: on Buddy Rogers and leave the NWA, putting belief in

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Speaker 1: the reality behind established KFA to risk. Right, If like

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Speaker 1: he's able to just like leave the NWA and keep

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Speaker 1: the belt, then it means that wrestling's not really a sport.

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Speaker 1: So eventually they came to an agreement to kind of

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Speaker 1: rescue Kfabe that Rogers would in fact lose to luth

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Speaker 1: As after all. But the next year, Vince Senior and

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Speaker 1: Toots Mom, who's his business partner at this point, decided

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Speaker 1: to leave anyway and launch an independent wrestling federation of

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Speaker 1: their own. They call it the WWWF or Worldwide Wrestling Federation.

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Speaker 1: That eventually dropped one of the w's, giving us the

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Speaker 1: WWF that most people listening grew up with. It's called

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Speaker 1: the WWE now, but we're just going to call it

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Speaker 1: the WWF for our purposes today. While all this was

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Speaker 1: going on, Vince was acclimating to military school and the

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Speaker 1: departure of his stepfather, Leo, who bounced and got divorced

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Speaker 1: from Vincent Vince's mom around the same time. She got

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Speaker 1: remarried to some other dude about a half year later,

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Speaker 1: But this doesn't seem to have impacted Vince as much.

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Speaker 2: He was old enough.

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Speaker 1: Now he's spending all his time with his biological father,

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Speaker 1: and to his credit, Vince Senior seems to have legitimately

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Speaker 1: committed to being a part of Vincent's life, even though

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Speaker 1: he never kind of got over his awkwardness with his son,

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Speaker 1: who he doesn't really seem to have fully understood. It's

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Speaker 1: worth noting that four years later, in nineteen sixty six,

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Speaker 1: Leo Lupton would marry Vince's cousin, the young kid he

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Speaker 1: put leaves in in his early childhood. He was twenty

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Speaker 1: eight years older than her. So that's oh, that's good.

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Speaker 1: That's good.

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Speaker 3: That's like the four d Chess of Troubling.

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Speaker 1: But they marry in Florida, so at least this one's

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Speaker 1: not on North Carolina, so hey, you know, that's good.

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Speaker 2: He didn't even have to tell us that. I knew

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Speaker 2: from the story where they got married.

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Speaker 3: I assume most of these stories take place in Florida

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Speaker 3: because it's pro wrestling.

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Speaker 1: It is prominent in nearly every wrestler's life.

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Speaker 2: Those dry Florida leaves. When you're stuffing leaves into your bride.

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Speaker 2: You're twenty eight years younger cousin Brian and details the story.

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Speaker 3: It's fine anyway, every one of those details is significant.

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Speaker 1: Back in nineteen sixty two, eleventh grade, Vince tried his

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Speaker 1: first attempt at becoming a wrestling promoter. Now he's in

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Speaker 1: military school. At this point, he's become pretty muscular. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's working out with the weight set that uh doctor

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Speaker 1: Graham gave him, and he's you know, he's done some football.

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Speaker 1: He's an OK defensive tackle. But he doesn't really like

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Speaker 1: actual competition sports. He doesn't seem to like super engage

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Speaker 1: with him. Wrestling is what his bio dad did, and

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Speaker 1: so wrestling is what Vincent Junior loved. He decided to

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Speaker 1: create a youth copy of his dad's league at Fishbourne

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Speaker 1: Military School. Now Vince McMahon's first shows were carried out

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Speaker 1: in a high school gym after hours, and included the

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Speaker 1: costumes and ring stunts that were already such a part

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Speaker 1: of the past. Time Vince wrestled himself as ape Man McMahon.

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Speaker 1: One friend at the time explained that's not a bad

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Speaker 1: name to be honest, like solid wrestling name.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's you know you. You you graduate from that,

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Speaker 3: you evolve, But it's not bad for a first first try.

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Speaker 1: As a high school wrestling starting point, perfectly acceptable.

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Speaker 2: You become.

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Speaker 3: Some of the people listening think Gorilla Monsoon's a joke

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Speaker 3: that you came up with.

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Speaker 2: He is not. That's a real guy.

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Speaker 1: That is an absolute real guy. One friend at the

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Speaker 1: time explained he was just into dress up, putting on

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Speaker 1: masks or something, and he would wrestle just to have fun.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people would participate, sometimes they just come watch Vince

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Speaker 1: was Vince.

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Speaker 2: He loves the first part LF.

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Speaker 1: He's just choking, pop gouging his own eyes out, throat

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Speaker 1: punching himself.

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Speaker 3: This is what I did to those Marines.

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Speaker 2: They coming. This is I have to say.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that's actually really interesting about Vince McMahon.

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Speaker 1: He is a cutthroat businessman. He is like, uh it

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Speaker 1: does a lot of terrible things in the name of prophets.

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Speaker 1: But he's also not one of those bloodless weirdos who

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Speaker 1: just lives to soak money out of wrestling. Like he

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Speaker 1: loves to wrestle like he becomes a very prominent in

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Speaker 1: ring character because he just can't stop himself from being

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Speaker 1: like physically an.

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Speaker 2: Involved with it.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people argue he ruined wrestling, and there's

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Speaker 1: certainly a case to be made there, but you can't

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Speaker 1: really argue he's not like enthralled by everything that is

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Speaker 1: involved in in pro wrestling, Like this is an obsession

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Speaker 1: for him and it kind of always has been. Kids

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Speaker 1: who wrestled with him would later talk about his strut,

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Speaker 1: like the strut with which he walked into the ring,

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Speaker 1: which you can still see in like videos of him

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Speaker 1: from the nineties and early two thousands.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you can.

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Speaker 1: They describe him as walking like baby Hueye and it

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Speaker 1: would still be part of his ring presence half a

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Speaker 1: century later. That is a great way to describe the

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Speaker 1: way he walks, like one of the kids from Ductails.

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Speaker 3: It really sits well. Baby Hughey's a different character. Oh bough,

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Speaker 3: we're not talking about Huey Dewey and Louis no. Oh okay,

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Speaker 3: but maybe Baby Hughey is the great big one.

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Speaker 1: I don't know who that is. See, this is this

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Speaker 1: is me learning something. I'm going to google it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: google it. Google baby.

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Speaker 2: I assume this was this was a duck. Oh oh,

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Speaker 2: oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Okay, no, I do know this guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the gigantic weird baby duck. Yes, okay, that also works. Look,

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Speaker 1: both of these work, is what I'm saying. Cartoon cartoon

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Speaker 1: duck generally a good thing to compare to Vince McMahon. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: has never been a more apt comparison.

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Speaker 2: No. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: So wrestling was not the only kind of performing that

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Speaker 1: teen Vince was into, as Josie Reisman found when she

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Speaker 1: interviewed his friend Dutch for her book Quote, we would

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Speaker 1: go over to Fairfax Hall, the girls school across town,

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Speaker 1: and he would put on a healing show over there.

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Speaker 1: He had a fellow named Dutch Lindsay Charles Lindsay. Dutch

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Speaker 1: was kind of short, stocky guy, and he'd grabbed Dutch

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Speaker 1: by the head and he'd do this healing routine and

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Speaker 1: Dutch would fall to the ground and Vince would heal him.

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Speaker 1: What the book, I did not call medicine shows being

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Speaker 1: part of his early life when I started doing this,

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Speaker 1: but uh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, neither did I.

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Speaker 2: But of course, yeah, absolutely, Scance. I love that it's

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Speaker 2: a girls school. So there's this implied motivation that that

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Speaker 2: he was doing it to get laid. He's like, you

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Speaker 2: know what ladies love. Yeah, well that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting trying to see because and this is something

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Speaker 1: that the when Josie talks to other kids at the

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Speaker 1: military school, they'd bring up is that, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're men in a military school, our access to women

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Speaker 1: who are our age was very strictly curtailed at this point, right,

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Speaker 1: So these performances at the women's school was kind of

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Speaker 1: like one of our few chances to mingle with with other,

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Speaker 1: you know, girls who were kind of in our same

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Speaker 1: age group. But Vincent doesn't seem to have been into this.

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Speaker 1: He is at this point in love with the woman

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Speaker 1: who will become his wife, Linda McMahon.

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Speaker 2: Uh. I can already see the scene where she's like

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Speaker 2: watching from her dorm window of this this maniac and

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Speaker 2: the parking lot, like healing his friend from a wheelchair

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Speaker 2: and thinking, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna murder that man

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Speaker 2: one day, and then.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna somehow become a member of Donald Trump's White House.

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Speaker 2: My god.

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Speaker 3: So they had very specific dreams.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, friends, recall that he talked about Linda constantly, even

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Speaker 1: though he generally didn't talk about girls, Wrestling was pretty

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Speaker 1: much all Vince chatted about, like they thought. They noted

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Speaker 1: that he talked about Linda and that it was kind

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Speaker 1: of weird because he otherwise did not seem to notice

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Speaker 1: that female people existed.

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Speaker 3: Maybe she had a real crisp.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 3: She plants your head in a canvas like something you've

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Speaker 3: never seen.

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Speaker 1: Now, as we have come to expect, always keeps a

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Speaker 1: razor blade in her palm, now, as we've come to

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Speaker 1: expect from our boy adult. Vince would later claim to

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Speaker 1: have been a bed dude at school, constantly in trouble,

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Speaker 1: in committing crimes. I wasn't caught for some stuff that

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Speaker 1: would have been immediate dismissal, like stealing the commandant's car.

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Speaker 1: He also had a dog he was nuts about. I

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Speaker 1: love animals, but one day I couldn't resist giving that

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Speaker 1: dog a laxative. With the laxative and some hamburger, and

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Speaker 1: the dog did his business all over the commandant's apartment,

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Speaker 1: which thrilled me greatly.

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Speaker 3: Now it thrilled me greatly. Yeah, when no, he absolutely did.

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Speaker 3: When did he When did he give this interview? Oh?

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Speaker 3: This was decades later. So it's in like the nineties, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: at the eighties ninety, I think, not like the eighteen.

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Speaker 3: He chose to describe giving a dog a lax to

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Speaker 3: ship all over a guy's apartment was it was quite thrilling.

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Speaker 2: We got crazy friends on her head. We make a

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Speaker 2: girl with a.

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Speaker 3: Computer, our friend Bluto. You should have seen the one

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Speaker 3: in That guy could rain a whole handle at once. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: it killed me greatly.

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Speaker 1: It is also interesting to me we're focusing on the

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Speaker 1: even weirder things that he wants us to believe about him.

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Speaker 1: But he really wants us to think he stole a

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Speaker 1: lot of cars. And that's that's such a strange thing

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Speaker 1: to what people. It's it's okay, man. He claims that

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Speaker 1: he was the first student to be court martialed at

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Speaker 1: Fishburne over depending on the interview, either in subordination or

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Speaker 1: a threat he made that he might somehow sabotage sabotage

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Speaker 1: finals week again sabotage, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Threat of a bomb threat is what he's claiming.

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Speaker 1: I think it was more like a prank. Okay, but

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Speaker 1: but yeah, this is like and he like. So he

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Speaker 1: says that basically the administration thought I was gonna sabotage

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Speaker 1: Finals week. So they court martialed me and they were

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Speaker 1: gonna kick me out, But then all of the other

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Speaker 1: students and teachers rose up and like threatened to leave

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Speaker 1: the school if they didn't clear me of all charges.

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Speaker 1: Like there was a rebellion. No, absolutely, none of they didn't.

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Speaker 1: Fucking Dead Poet Society, for as you.

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Speaker 2: Are accused of threatening to shut down the entire finals

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Speaker 2: week with your pranks. What's this clapping? Everyone is in

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Speaker 2: support of you, captain.

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Speaker 3: My captain.

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Speaker 2: Has a feed a dog laxative. I know this is

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Speaker 2: you the dumbest ship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he wants to believe it was Dead Poet Society

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Speaker 3: but also Animal House.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah it's it's it's very funny. He is

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Speaker 1: such a liar. So Fishburne the school has like Josie

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Speaker 1: Riseman again, the author of Ringmaster, Uh talked to a

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Speaker 1: bunch of his former classmates at fishburn and none of

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Speaker 1: them recall any of this happening. She also like reached

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Speaker 1: out to Fishbourne and was like you, he says, you

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Speaker 1: court martialed him. You guys keep records. Do you have

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Speaker 1: any records that he was ever court martialed? Uh, they

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Speaker 1: did not have any records, and Vince has never presented any. Instead,

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Speaker 1: interviews with his peers portray him as a decent student

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Speaker 1: who simply wasn't a great student because he wasn't that

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Speaker 1: interested in school. Right. He was one of those kids

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Speaker 1: who was like, he was smart, so he could do

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Speaker 1: okay if he didn't work too hard at class, and

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Speaker 1: so he devoted you know, he kind of scraped by

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Speaker 1: and spent most of his time on wrestling. Right that,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that kind of dude is actually pretty familiar

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Speaker 1: to our listeners, right, Like, that describes me without It

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Speaker 1: wasn't wrestling for me, but that describes me in high

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Speaker 1: school pretty well. Yeah, So once again Vince lied to

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Speaker 1: make himself look like a badass. The reality is that

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Speaker 1: he was a nerd. He was a wrestling nerd, and

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Speaker 1: he was more jacked than we tend to associate with

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Speaker 1: that term. But like most nerds, he kind of did

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Speaker 1: what he had to at school, avoided trouble, and spent

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Speaker 1: all of his free time on the stuff he was

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Speaker 1: obsessed with. Right Like, for me, this was Warhammer, but

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Speaker 1: it's the same pattern. Yeah, he graduated and he got

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Speaker 1: into college at East Carolina University. Around the same time,

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Speaker 1: his dad took on a new championship wrestler, a guy

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Speaker 1: named Bruno. Semartino still regarded today as maybe the greatest

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Speaker 1: pro wrestler of all time, although there's a couple of

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Speaker 1: people who folks wind up throwing out in that category.

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Speaker 1: Bruno conversation, he's in the conversation, right. Yeah, he was

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Speaker 1: a obviously, he's huge, and he was an extremely skilled

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Speaker 1: technical wrestler. Bruno was also the kind of person who

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Speaker 1: trained like a world class athlete, and as a result

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Speaker 1: of how careful he was about his training, he was

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Speaker 1: able to remain a high skill technical performer for more

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Speaker 1: than thirty years, which is a lot of longevity, especially

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Speaker 1: for this period of time in pro wrestling. With Bruno,

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Speaker 1: Vince Senior pioneered a strategy totally new to the field.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote now from a book called

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Speaker 1: Death of the Territories by Tim Hornbaker. The central idea

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Speaker 1: was to build up a succession of threatening challengers for Sammartino,

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Speaker 1: and Bruno would show his vulnerability in near defeats, only

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Speaker 1: to rise up in the to conquer his opponents. His

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Speaker 1: performance never failed to capture the imagination of audiences. Among

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Speaker 1: his villainous rivals were a three hundred and fifty pound

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Speaker 1: Guerrilla Monsoon, the six foot five Bill Miller, and the

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Speaker 1: six foot three, two hundred and seventy five pound Bill Watts.

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Speaker 1: As Semmartino worked through one feud, McMahon pushed several other

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Speaker 1: prominent challengers at the same time to keep the cycle

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Speaker 1: going all over the circuit. Now, while this is all

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Speaker 1: going on in the wrestling world, you know, Linda graduates

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Speaker 1: high school about a year after Vince, and the two

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Speaker 1: of them get married when they're both in college in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six, which is, interestingly enough, the same year

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Speaker 1: that Leo marries Vince's cousin. Linda joins him at ECU,

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Speaker 1: and because she's an excellent student, she qualifies for an

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Speaker 1: accelerated program in French, which is I wouldn't have called

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Speaker 1: as Linda McMahon's focus in college, but there you go.

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Speaker 1: They graduated in nineteen sixty nine, which is the same

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Speaker 1: year that she got pregnant. Now, Vince tell another possible

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Speaker 1: lie about his time in college. He claims that his

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Speaker 1: grades there were so low because he was spending so

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Speaker 1: much time fighting. I guess that he had to talk

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Speaker 1: several professors into bumping his grades so he could get

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Speaker 1: a two point zero zero one and graduate.

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Speaker 3: I was just so tough, I kept punching my books.

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Speaker 1: Now, I will say, of all of the things he's

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Speaker 1: told us that might be lies, I think this one

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Speaker 1: might be true because this relies on him being good

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Speaker 1: at like manipulating people, and that is his actual skill. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I could see him manipulating his teachers to

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Speaker 1: giving him a passing grade. I'm not gonna say that

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Speaker 1: one's definitely fake. The year after he left college, Vince

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Speaker 1: got a job working for his father at the then WWWF.

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Speaker 1: He'd initially wanted to be a wrestler, but again, his

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Speaker 1: dad sees what happens to wrestlers when they age, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: he knows that this is a job that kills you,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, the fuck no, you are not going

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Speaker 1: to do this for a living. And yeah, at the

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Speaker 1: start of the nineteen seventies, though, Vin Junior joins his

401
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Speaker 1: dad's company anyway, and at this point kind of the

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Speaker 1: WWF's territory had eleven states, basically the whole Northeast in

403
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Speaker 1: pieces of the Virginias and Ohio, it's the largest wrestling

404
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Speaker 1: federation at the time, but it's also very much.

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Speaker 2: Integrated with the others. Right.

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Speaker 1: The heads of the different syndicates would change sometimes, but

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Speaker 1: the actual territory wouldn't because everything was kind of spoken for.

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Speaker 1: So nobody can really expand without somebody else losing some ground.

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Speaker 1: And for you know, all of the that he is

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Speaker 1: a pretty cutthroat businessman, Vince Senior was one of these

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Speaker 1: guys who's like, look, these other people are my peers,

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Speaker 1: these other owners of syndicates, and we have a handshake deal, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to fuck too mouthy. You'll help, I'll

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Speaker 1: fuck around a little bit sometimes to get an advantage,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not going to fuck with the overall system

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Speaker 1: too much, you know. Yeah, So at the very beginning

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Speaker 1: of his career, Vince found a place for himself as

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Speaker 1: a referee. Now, in this stage, wrestling refs were legitimate

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Speaker 1: sports referees. They were licensed by the states, and they

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Speaker 1: had to have specific trade in order to do the job.

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Speaker 1: This is again wrestling is not an actual sport still

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Speaker 1: at this point, but the referees do all of but

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Speaker 1: they're lying about that, right, Like wrestler, like the company promoters,

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Speaker 1: everybody pretends it is a real sport, and so the

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Speaker 1: government's like, well, then you have to have actual reps, right, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, like we'll go along with it, We'll go

427
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Speaker 1: along with this, but you got to do the thing

428
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Speaker 1: other sports do. We can't just like pretend that you're

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Speaker 1: a real sport but be like for no reason, they're

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Speaker 1: exempt from all the rules right now.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, so all eventually becomes the whole thing behind sports entertainment, right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, which we will. That will be a

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Speaker 1: major focus of part four. So the main job of

434
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 1: reps at this point is to act as storytellers, right

435
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: they kind of Honestly, there's a lot of similarities between

436
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: wrestling and dungeons and dragons. The reps in a lot

437
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: of ways are kind of acting like dms, right, They're

438
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: making it clear when someone's won or lost. Sometimes when

439
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,679
Speaker 1: you have to, like you know, somebody gets out of

440
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 1: pocket and they're not willing to like actually take a

441
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: fall when they're sppos to take a fall, you find

442
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 1: ways to like deque them or call the match for

443
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: the other guy in order to make sure things still

444
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: in the way that they need to. The ref has

445
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: actually a lot of power, and so do the announcers.

446
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: It's kind of the two of them together are helping

447
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: to sort of tell the story to the audience of

448
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: what's happening in the ring, right, And it's also part

449
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 1: of their job and part of the announcer's job what

450
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: Vince Junior is doing to sell what's happening to the audience.

451
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 1: So maybe sometimes you've got like a wrestler who's not

452
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: as technically skilled, or just somebody's off and a hit

453
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: doesn't really, you know, land the way that it should have.

454
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 1: It's your job to kind of hype that hit up

455
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: so that the audience, you know, gets carried along in

456
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 1: the enthusiasm and doesn't notice.

457
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 3: One of the funniest things clips you can watch on

458
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 3: YouTube are blown spots like that where somebody misses like

459
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 3: a drop kick or a hole doesn't go right, or

460
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 3: they screw up a special move and listening to the

461
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 3: announcers trying to sell what happened as if they didn't

462
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: just fuck up. Yeah, it's an incredible genre of YouTube video.

463
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, yeah, and it is interesting, Like the

464
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: more I get into it, the more I understand why,

465
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: Like all of the kids that I played Dungeons and

466
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: Dragons with when I was twelve were into pro wrestling.

467
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I get I actually and this makes

468
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: complete sense. These are extremely similar in a lot of ways.

469
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 3: You know.

470
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 2: It's just a lot of it is.

471
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: Make believe in choreography and kind of the high fantasy,

472
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 1: a weird kind of fantasy storytelling.

473
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 2: I love the theatrics of when the referee like tells,

474
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: like in a tag team match, he'll like tell the

475
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: good guy tag team member like, hey, just turn and

476
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 2: start yelling at him for no reason, and then the

477
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: bad guy tag team guys will like beat out of

478
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 2: the other guy, and then he turns around and he

479
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,959
Speaker 2: has to act like what happened to you? I just

480
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: love that. Yeah.

481
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 3: So object permanence?

482
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, you know who else has no object permanence?

483
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 3: I love where this is going. Yeah, the sponsors.

484
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: Look, we have one simple rule for the sponsors of

485
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards, and it's that none of them can

486
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: be above the age where they understand object permanence. Every

487
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 1: one of our sponsors. The one guarantee I'll make is

488
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: that if you put your hands over their eyes, they

489
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: will freak out because they don't know that you haven't

490
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: just disappeared from existence.

491
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 3: Support these babies and goldfish.

492
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 2: I guess yes, goldfish as well.

493
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: We do take a lot of money from the goldfish

494
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: industrial car from.

495
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 2: Big gold Big goldfish.

496
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: They can't get quite large if you keep feed them, Tom,

497
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: It's all about the size of the bowl. Same is

498
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: true of wrestlers.

499
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 2: Actually, all right, ah, we're back, yeah, brother. So in

500
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies.

501
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: Seventy two, Vince Junior starts working as a referee. Now

502
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: there's nothing that Vince McMahon hates more than being called

503
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: Vince junior. And it is true, he's not a junior, right,

504
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: he and his dad have different names, Like, they're not

505
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: actually Vince Senior and Vince Junior. But because they are

506
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: both a Vince McMahon, everyone they worked with at the time,

507
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: and this I get this from Tim Hornbaker's book, everyone

508
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: they worked with at the time in the wrestling world

509
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: just called them Vince Senior and Vince Junior because, like

510
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: I found out writing this podcast, that's just the easiest

511
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: way to talk about the both of them. Because anyway,

512
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: NS Slayer was not sticking as an Yeah Marin Slayer, Yeah,

513
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: that doesn't work as well. Anyway, Vince McMahon hates it

514
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: when you call him Vince Junior. So the job Vince

515
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: Junior took previous had previously been done like this, This

516
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: announce or referee, you know, announcer job that he gets, sorry,

517
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: this announcer job that he gets had previously been done

518
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: by a renowned sports broadcaster named Ray Morgan. He was

519
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: a very good announcer, but he was also a union man,

520
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: and both Vince McMahon's hated unions, so one to have that,

521
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: you can't have that. So there's a couple versions of

522
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: the story. One of them is that one day Vince's

523
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: backstage with his dad in Hamburg, Pennsylvania one night and

524
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: he sees his dad having this really mean, nasty argument

525
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: with Ray Morgan over the fact that Ray wants a raise.

526
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: Ray is like, I'm not going out and announcing tonight

527
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: unless I get a raise, and Vince Senior's like, fuck you,

528
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: then you're fired. Vince Junior then later claims, quote, I'm

529
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: sitting in this cloakroom and I'm saying to myself, Wow,

530
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: that was awesome. I was just proud to be there

531
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: and listen to all that, and proud of my dad

532
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: proud of the fact that he told this guy to

533
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: take uh and so you know, his dad gives him

534
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: the job to because he'd fired this guy for you know,

535
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: trying to trying to get a raise. Now that's the

536
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: Vince McMahon version of the story. Josie Riiseman's research includes

537
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: uncovering arbitration documents from a separate legal case at around

538
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: the same time before you, I just want to say

539
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: real quick that my prediction is that those things happen.

540
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: It is just not on the same night. Yeah, that's

541
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: actually Tom. You you have gotten it completely right. That

542
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: is literally what I'm about to say. So he was

543
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: not masturbating in the closet. Finds somebody well that I didn't.

544
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: I never said that. I never said that, Sean. So

545
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: basically what happens, based on these arbitration documents is that

546
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: Morgan had previously negotiated a pay raise and Vince Senior

547
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: had agreed to give him a pay raise, and after

548
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: they have the face to face meeting where he agrees

549
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: to a new contract in a pay raise, he fired

550
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: Morgan like when they're no longer in a room together.

551
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: So he doesn't have like the guts to get up

552
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: in front of him and tell him he's fired. He

553
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: pretends to agree to a raise to avoid a conflict,

554
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: and then fires him later, and then he hires his

555
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: son for the same rate that Morgan had just signed at. Now, basically,

556
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: he's doing this to be like, hey, anybody who tries

557
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: to like argue for a better stake, like, fuck you.

558
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,239
Speaker 1: It's not about the money to me, it's about winning. Right.

559
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: If you get a raise, that means you beat me

560
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: and I won't be beat son gets your job. Yeah,

561
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: my fucking kid gets your job. Now again, this is

562
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: a little confusing. This story is a little confusing if

563
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: you kind of buy all these recollections of Vince Senior

564
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: that you get from other wrestlers that talk about how

565
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: honest he was, and it is true, you can find

566
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: a lot of positive accounts of Vince Senior as a

567
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: boss from wrestlers from this era, and in fact, some

568
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: of these accounts sort of verge on adoration, but that

569
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: affection to.

570
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: The degree that it was going to remember not everyone's

571
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: an asshole all the time, exactly exactly.

572
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: And it's also there's a lot of dudes that love

573
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: Vince McMahon. Yeah, yeah, because he's nice to them in person.

574
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: And that's what That's what Jesse the Body Ventura said that, like,

575
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: you would always feel good after a talk with Vince,

576
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 3: but you wouldn't get a dime, you know, And it's

577
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: what's I think. It does seem to me that the

578
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 3: affection a lot of his wrestlers had for him was honest,

579
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 3: but it was not reciprocated by Vince Senior. Any warmth

580
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: he showed his employees was k fabe right. And here's

581
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 3: the book Ring Master describing a conversation between ex wrestler

582
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 3: JJ Dillon and Vince Junior. Vince the Younger told Dylan

583
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 3: about a conversation he'd had with Vince Senior. The father's wisdom,

584
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 3: as imparted to the son, was wrestlers are like seagulls.

585
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 3: All they do is shit, eat and squawk all day.

586
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 3: Dylan was taken aback and never forgot it, even went

587
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 3: so far as to name his memoir wrestlers are like seagulls.

588
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 3: From McMahon to McMahon. That gave an insight there and

589
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: how his father truly felt deep inside, Dylan says, though

590
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 3: he never spoke openly that way, And yeah, I think

591
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 3: that's interesting, accurate. Probably seems like Dylan's got his number. Now.

592
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: The fact that Vince Senior gives Vince Junior this job

593
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: is probably the most obvious example of nepotism that he shows.

594
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: His son.

595
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: Junior was expected to run himself ragged, though, driving across

596
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: the country to call shows from Maine to Georgia. He

597
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: kind of breaks into the business really because his dad

598
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: gives him this impossible task of like bringing up numbers

599
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: in Maine, and he's good at it. He's able to

600
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: actually promote, he gets more people coming in, so he's

601
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: he's not paid an enormous amount of money, Like I think,

602
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: it's a reasonably comfortable living once he really gets in there.

603
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: But his dad also he's not grooming his air, right

604
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: he does. Vince is not going to inherit the business,

605
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: and his dad is like open with him that, like,

606
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: no nobody, I am not giving the business to you.

607
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: He's not, in fact going to give the business to anybody. So,

608
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: in order to prove himself, Vince Junior decided that, like,

609
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: while he's sort of building his career as a wrestling promoter,

610
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: he's going to try and get independently wealthy by engaging

611
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: in a series of business schemes with his wife Linda.

612
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: Uh So, the first thing they do is they buy

613
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: an old cement plant and a horse farm to try

614
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: to make money both of the stilling.

615
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: Horse guy.

616
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 3: You know you've heard that phrase. They go together like

617
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: cement in horses. Right, you got horse in my cement.

618
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 3: You got cement in my horses? Ohing, dip your horse

619
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 3: and cementas delicious.

620
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: Everyone loves a good cement horse. So Vince is heavily

621
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: reliant on Linda as his money manager while they attempt to,

622
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: you know, remain solvent. But even this early in their relationship,

623
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,959
Speaker 1: he cheated with enough regularity that his friends warned him

624
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: about it. The genital just was, Vince, this woman is

625
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: way too good for you. Why are you being an

626
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: asshole like this? And you have to assume the kind

627
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: of people that Vince McMahon has at friends at this point.

628
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: For them to be like, you're not treating your wife right,

629
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: You've got to be really cheating, outrageous. You gotta be cheating,

630
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: like Olympic grade cheating. So, because Vince, you gotta be

631
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: fucking women in the next room. Yeah, it's gotta be bad.

632
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: It's gotta be like guys in North Carolina in the

633
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies go, I don't think this guy respects women

634
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: like that. So Vince Junior is not set to inherit

635
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: the WWF outright, And so again he's going to Ultimately

636
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: he's going to pay his father for the business. He's

637
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: often tried to describe this, the fact that his dad

638
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: made him pay for the WWF. It's sort of like

639
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: a a kind of like ode to self reliance, right,

640
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: But the truth is that he did still get a

641
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: lot of help from his father. In nineteen seventy four,

642
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: Vince Senior got his son an unpaid gig with a

643
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: boxing promoter top rank that was meant to teach him

644
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: the ropes of the industry. Less than a week into

645
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: this job, Vince went to his boss and said, quote,

646
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: I've got this great idea. I know a guy who's

647
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: been jumping over trucks with a motorcycle evil caneval and

648
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: now he wants to with a space rocket jump over

649
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: the Snake River Canyon.

650
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 2: Now did really well, thank.

651
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: You if you're a young aue.

652
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 3: He didn't quite make it. He didn't quite.

653
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: Make it right.

654
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess most of our gen z ers don't

655
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: remember Evil Knievel. If you've ever watched the Simpsons episode

656
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: where Homer all down that canyon twice, the stunt man

657
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: in the beginning of the episode is based on Evil Caniebl.

658
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: Evil was a famous stunt man who jumped things and

659
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: occasionally got badly hurt.

660
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 3: Right real quick, I want to point out, Robert that

661
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 3: you're touchstone for people who are too young to remember

662
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 3: Evil Caniebl is a thirty three year old Simpsons The

663
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 3: good Simpsons episodes are eternal, Tom, they never died, they

664
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: never die.

665
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: Still a touchstone to kids. I have to believe that, Tom,

666
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: I have nothing else. Sure, it's it's I showed Garrison

667
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: Starship Troopers the other week. All of all of the

668
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: the icons of my childhood are have died and faded.

669
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: It's it's tragic. I never thought it would happen to me.

670
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: I thought, uh no, I thought those movies would be forever.

671
00:34:58,960 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 2: Anyway.

672
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: Evil Canel, famous stunt man, jumped things, occasionally hurt himself

673
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: at the day. I remember it was a little kid

674
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: knowing about Evil Knievel and like my cousins and I

675
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: like he was this kind of like superhero figure to us.

676
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: But the reality is he was a giant piece of shit.

677
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 2: He was going to make that at jumping motorcycles as well, Like, yeah,

678
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,280
Speaker 2: he was not good at any other Like more modern

679
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: motorcycle jumpers talk about him, they don't talk about like

680
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: his technique. He just got off Harley and just held

681
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: the throttle down, did not pitch that motorcycle.

682
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 3: Right.

683
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: He was generally thought he would die, like he just

684
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: had balls to he didn't care if he lived. Yeah,

685
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: he's like whatever if I die, fuck it cool.

686
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 3: He's just Johnny Knoxville, like, yeah, forty years earlier, without

687
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 3: a sense of humor or charm.

688
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, or skill or any of the things.

689
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's Yeah.

690
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: Honestly, I think like fifty percent of his appeal was

691
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 1: the fact that Evil canebl is a pretty cool name

692
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: for a stunt man.

693
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 4: You might see a man die, Yeah, there's that was

694
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 4: the big appeal to all of his stunts is that, like,

695
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 4: there's pretty good chance he doesn't live through this, so obviously.

696
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: It won't be a gentle death. I know.

697
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: No, you will watch a man come apart on landing

698
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 1: crash dummy. So you know, he was a giant bigot.

699
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: He was very sexist. He was There are allegations at

700
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: least that he was abusive to his children, but Vince

701
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: didn't care about that, although he may not have known

702
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: any of that at the time, but I don't think

703
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: he would have cared either way because he wanted to

704
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: people to get to get people to pay for like

705
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: pay There used to be a thing called pay per

706
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: view kids, uh, where you would pay to watch things

707
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: like a la carte that weren't cable TV. I know

708
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 1: that's basically how all television works now for most people,

709
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: but at the time this was special things, right, So

710
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: his goal is, like, I want to get people to

711
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: pay for pay per view so they can like see

712
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 1: if this guy is going to die life on camera,

713
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: Vince works out a potentially sweet deal with Evil and

714
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: Evil and ABC were He's like, hey, we'll do this

715
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: on pay per view while it's live, but then after

716
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: it airs, ABC will get the exclusive right to rebroadcast

717
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: it and so we'll get even more money from this thing.

718
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: But when he sits down at it with Evil, canievl

719
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: in a meeting with his boss, who is a Jewish

720
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: lawyer from New York. His boss at this promotion company.

721
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: The first thing Evil can Eevil says is there are

722
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: three kinds of people. I can't stand New Yorkers, lawyers

723
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: and Jews.

724
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: Oh so so the meeting. The meeting went well, then.

725
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, the meeting went great, so gradu, Yeah, I don't

726
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: believe in the Holocaust.

727
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: How are you doing?

728
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,479
Speaker 3: They all haven't even sat down yet.

729
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's showing off his SS tattoo.

730
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 3: So it's just brought. It brought a briefcase of Nazi

731
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 3: parafamiliar with him bring meetings.

732
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: So it gradually became clear that Evil was not a

733
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: good person to be in business with. Now his boss,

734
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 1: whose name is a room Vince, you know the decent

735
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: thing to do when you realize that, like you've got that,

736
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: there's two decent things to do, I would say, when

737
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: you realize that, like you've brought this guy in for

738
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: a meeting with your boss and he's being really racist

739
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,959
Speaker 1: to your boss, the most decent thing to do would

740
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: be just like, fuck you, get out of here, We're

741
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: not doing this deal. The second most decent thing would

742
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: be like, hey, boss, really sorry, I didn't know he

743
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: was fucking bigot. I will take point on this, so

744
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 1: you don't have to interact with him, and I'll get

745
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: you know, get this thing done and we can move

746
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 1: on with our lives.

747
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 2: Right.

748
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: Vince does neither of those things. Instead, he abandons his

749
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: boss and his unpaid job at the agency and leaves

750
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: them to clean up the mess after they've signed a

751
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: deal with Evil. The canyon jump is a disaster, and

752
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: a room had to spin this again. His boss, who

753
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: is a Jewish lawyer, had to spend the summer promoting

754
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: it with Evil, and Evil, who, on one memorable occasion,

755
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: while they are together at a hotel, gets angry and

756
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 1: a bunch of off duty soldiers and their families swimming

757
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: at the hotel pool and pulls a gun and threatens

758
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: them out of the hotel pool so they'll be quiet.

759
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 3: American hero, great guy.

760
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: So the jump is a flop. Yeah, there's ay.

761
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 3: I was wondering. I was like, man, I didn't know

762
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 3: Vince was involved with the Snake River Canyon Jump, and

763
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 3: it's like he.

764
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: Wasn't He invented it and then he abandoned it.

765
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 3: He just fucking left.

766
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: He was out. In your future episode, there's still plenty

767
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,919
Speaker 2: for the don't worry, we'll make it work.

768
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 3: I do like it's a snake River is not even

769
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 3: it's not even like an entertaining catastrophe. No, No, he

770
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 3: just doesn't make it in his parachute open off the side. Yeah,

771
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,479
Speaker 3: it's a climactics, a very lame jump.

772
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: If you just type bass jumping fails into YouTube, you

773
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: will find more impressive failure fails of reckless human beings.

774
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: If you cat's trying to circle around a full back,

775
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: you'll get.

776
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 3: More more thrilling videos than jumping snake River can.

777
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: So it goes really badly. And I will say, even

778
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: though Vince abandons the entire effort, he and his wife

779
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: are heavily invested in this stunt for some fucking reason,

780
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: and they do lose a quarter of a million dollars.

781
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 2: So God, but she loves him. She is very loyal.

782
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: You gotta give her that.

783
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: In normal people world, being responsible for the Snake River

784
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: Canyon jump and then losing a quarter of a million

785
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: dollars on it would be the end of your big

786
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: industry dreams.

787
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 3: But Vince, that would be like opening al Capone's vault.

788
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 3: There was nothing inside.

789
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, but unfortunate.

790
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: Can you imagine if that guy was still in media?

791
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: But Vince Junior is Vince Senior son. So a room

792
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: wound up reaching out again to Vince Junior when he

793
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: had another idea for a stunt promotion. Now, this one

794
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: involved a guy you might know called Muhammad Ali, him Ali.

795
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: We are talking the mid seventies here. Ali is a

796
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: big name at this point in time. He is he is,

797
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: he is fucking a big, big, big dude, and he

798
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: has been approached by the Japanese to fight a famous

799
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: Japanese wrestler in like a big show match. Now, there's

800
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: a lot of money in getting Muhammad Ali to fight

801
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: the most famous wrestler in Japan, Right, you can make

802
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: You're gonna make a shitload on that if you can,

803
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: if you can pull it out. But Ali wasn't Mahmad

804
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 1: Ali is Muhammad Ali, right, He's he's kind of hesitant.

805
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: He doesn't really get why anyone would want to see this.

806
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: So Vince Junior made a plan that he thought he

807
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: could sell to Ali. And I'm gonna quote again from

808
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: Josie Reisman here.

809
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 3: Dying to hear what this is.

810
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,919
Speaker 1: Oh boy, tom So I got a hold of Vince

811
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 1: Junior and I said, how do I do this? A

812
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: room says, and Vince, of course had brilliance when it

813
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 1: came to wrestling and gave me the sin. He recounts

814
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: Vince's plan, which involved a well worn wrestling practice known

815
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: as blading, in which your wrestler will covertly cut their

816
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: own skin to make it look as though they've endured

817
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: enormous damage. The scenario was, and I'll never forget it,

818
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: that Ali, after two or three rounds was going to

819
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: be ostensibly pounding the hell out of Anoch for fake

820
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: but make it look real. And Anoki was the kind

821
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: of wrestler that had a razor like you shave with

822
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: in his mouth, and he would take the razor out

823
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: and slit his own eyebrows. And as Ali was punishing him,

824
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 1: the blood would be falling down and a Lee would

825
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 1: turn to the referee, please stop the fight. The referee wouldn't,

826
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 1: and Ali turns around and says, you got to stop

827
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: the fight, Andnoki would jump on his back pin him

828
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: one two, three count. Anok would win the fight. Everyone

829
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: would be happy, and a Lee would win with a

830
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: big paycheck. Okay, okay, is yeah, that sort of works.

831
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: That has like a wrestling logic to it that like yeah,

832
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: he lost, but like it's not a clean pin, you know.

833
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the thing that theoretically could work, although I

834
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: might add that having somebody take a punch from Muhammad

835
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: Ali with a razor blade in their mouth seems reckless.

836
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that fake punching is not it's like a

837
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: specific thing you train. Yeah, that like when you watch

838
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: The Rock and Steve Austin throw fake punches, You're like, God,

839
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 2: that looks really close to real. Yeah, they're quite good

840
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 2: at it. It took probably forty years of wrestling before

841
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: anyone like landed on that. Like if you watch Hulkogan

842
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 2: punch somebody who'll like put his hand over their forehead,

843
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: dogs and then his own hand, You're like, well, I

844
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: know how you did that trick. Yeah.

845
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, a counterpoint, have you seen an Oki? I feel

846
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 3: like that dude's face could take a up.

847
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: Camera.

848
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: Well you got to get you do have to give him.

849
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: He is he is one of like three people who

850
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: have lived on this earth who looks like he could

851
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: take a punch from Muhammad Ali.

852
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, for dude looks like a very serious statue.

853
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, very very large man. So actual wrestling people. So again,

854
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: this is like, this is a problem for Ali because

855
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: Mom and Ali, I don't know if you know this

856
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: about him not a loser, right not part of his brand.

857
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 3: Doesn't really have anything to prove by doing this weird

858
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,479
Speaker 3: exhibition work, so.

859
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 1: They may they do make a tentative agree agreement and

860
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: they haven't like, Ali hasn't agreed to the plan, but

861
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: he's like, well, we'll figure out something. So they start

862
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: promoting the match as they're still kind of working behind

863
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: the scenes to figure out exactly how this is going

864
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: to play out. The actual wrestling people, both you know,

865
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: on the US side working with Ali and the people

866
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: who are in Japan working with Aenoki, both agree that

867
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: Ali shouldn't beat like he can't win, right because this

868
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: is in Japan and an Oki is a Japanese babyface,

869
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: and you're not going to bring in a foreigner and

870
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 1: have him win on an OKI's own turf, right kind

871
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: of Famously, the only wrestler who regularly got to do

872
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: that is Andre the Giant, but we're we haven't gotten

873
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: to him yet.

874
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 3: So hugely hugely famous he is. He is massive, it's

875
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,959
Speaker 3: just he's got to win, right, But Ali isn't really

876
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 3: willing to budge on losing right, he doesn't like because

877
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 3: he's Muhammad Ali. Vince Junior is ordered to Tokyo to

878
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 3: like figure this out, to like because they again it

879
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 3: kind of gets close to the wire and they still

880
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 3: haven't figured out how they're going to do this. So

881
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 3: Vince Junior, according to one version of the story, flies

882
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 3: down to Tokyo to figure this out. And here's what

883
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 3: Josie says, and I'm going to quote her here because

884
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: this is fucking unbelievable. In Vince's telling, he went to

885
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 3: Ali's room and discussed the matter with him. Ali refused

886
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,240
Speaker 3: to play ball, so Vince lunged forward and grabbed Ali

887
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 3: in a wrestling hole.

888
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: My surprise.

889
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: They took him to the floor, just to demonstrate that

890
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: in Noki abs there is that is physically impossible.

891
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 2: You don't, absolutely not.

892
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 3: If you lunged at Muhammad Ali in the nineteen seventies,

893
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 3: you died in the nineteen.

894
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,479
Speaker 1: Seventies, h tom My only disagreement is you would die

895
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 1: in like the eighteen seventies.

896
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: He would punch you so hard you would go back

897
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 2: in time.

898
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 3: He did not. Oh my god, Okay, yeah, we've gone

899
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 3: from stuff and leaves into my cousin's vagina to I

900
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 3: took down Mohammed Ali in a hotel room.

901
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 2: That left my life absolutely not. There are other.

902
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: People who were there who recall Vince being in a

903
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: room with Ali, but that he never touched him. You know,

904
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: I feel like I don't remember that. I do feel

905
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:41,959
Speaker 1: like they'd remember that across.

906
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 2: The room from Muhammad Ali, like him getting taken to

907
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 2: the ground by some fucking guy's kid.

908
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: Just I want you, I want you listeners. Go to YouTube,

909
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: look up any interview with Vince McMahon and try to

910
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 1: imagine that dude taking down Muhammad Ali in his prime.

911
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,439
Speaker 1: It's simply inconceivable. It's the greatest strike of all time

912
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: versus a leaf molester close, I mean, absolutely not. What

913
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 1: an insane thing to lie.

914
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 3: About, boldness of telling that lie.

915
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 2: So he did that, like if he's to be believed,

916
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 2: he did that to prove to Muhammad Ali like you

917
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 2: can't deal with.

918
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: A wrestler, no, no, just to show him like how

919
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:36,439
Speaker 3: it would work, right.

920
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 2: As if he had this conversation two hundred times a

921
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: day since he started being a boxer.

922
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's incredibly silly. So at any rate, Vince

923
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: does allegedly cook up a plan. So his partner on

924
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: this fight is a promoter named Mike Labell, who I

925
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: believe is the brother of Judo Jean LaBelle, who has

926
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: come up in both of the Bastards episodes. So you've

927
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: done with me now, shots, I love Jean's fucking hero.

928
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 1: So Jean was going to be the referee of the

929
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: match and Vincent's Vince McMahon's plan is that he was

930
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: going to sneak Judo jan a razor blade, which Jean

931
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: was supposed to use to cut Muhammad Ali's forehead and

932
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: force it into the match. They were going to do

933
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: this without warning.

934
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 2: Alife on the man in the middle of the match.

935
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 3: They were going to surprise blade Muhammad Ali, now one

936
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 3: of the greatest athletes of all time.

937
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: I will get I will say one thing. On the

938
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,720
Speaker 1: shirt list of people who might not die after blading

939
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali, Jean label is on that list.

940
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 3: Sure, I still don't favor him, It's sure, but I'm

941
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 3: I'm reacting to like the insanity is do it? Dacity?

942
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: Like this isna say Mahamad Ali with a razor blade

943
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: without telling him?

944
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 3: What if he because he's not gonna understand, it's it's

945
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 3: what's happening. So what if you fucking miss and cut

946
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 3: his eye out? Like yes, Like, there's so many things

947
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 3: that can go wrong with this.

948
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: Not only is this unethical, this is illegal, Like this

949
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: isn't illegal by the rules of wrestling. This is a

950
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: crime in Japan in the United States. That's that's actual assault. Yeah,

951
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: that is just a straight up.

952
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: A very legendarily hard maniac. You give him the knife.

953
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 2: I think he can take Muhammad Ali in his crime

954
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 2: three four times maybe, yeah, three maybe four?

955
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: So you know who would never agree to slash Muhammad

956
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: Ali in the face with a razor blade. The sponsors

957
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: of this podcast.

958
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,439
Speaker 3: The Fine Toddler Baby Goldfish.

959
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, Toddler's and Goldfish never gets caught up in schemes

960
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: like this.

961
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 2: We're back.

962
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 3: So again.

963
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: The plan is Judo Jean's kind of blade Muhammad Ali

964
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 1: and then use that as an excuse to stop the fight,

965
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: right And basically the idea is he'll make it look

966
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: as if all these bleeding because.

967
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 2: It could have got a hit by the other guy.

968
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 2: No one will sell together that the referee just lunged

969
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: at Muhammad Ali with a knife and suddenly he's spurting

970
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: blood and Mohamed at least very very mad at him,

971
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: and they'll say that that injury must have been from

972
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 2: the unrelated thing happened earlier in the fight. I think

973
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: it's a believable story. Grace is whoever came up with

974
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 2: this plan is probably a genius, And.

975
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: So there's there is I will say a pretty good

976
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 1: chance that what I've told you is true that Vince

977
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: McMahon goes to Tokyo and comes up with this insane plan.

978
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 3: Mike level, No, there's no doubt in my mind that

979
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 3: this plan was true.

980
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 2: Possibility dred percent.

981
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: Mike Leabell claims that Vince never even went to Japan. Again,

982
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: everyone involved in this are like liars, so.

983
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 3: Hard to say what went down.

984
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 2: You have to consider none of it happens at all, true,

985
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,399
Speaker 2: might not exist. I never met him, what.

986
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: Liars, So whatever the truth, Vince is definitely not there.

987
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: The day of the fight, which is again a debacle,

988
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: they have kind of a brief, unsatisfying skirmish, and then

989
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: Ainoki kicks Ali with cleats and cuts his leg, which

990
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: gives Jean Lebelle an excuse to call the fight.

991
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 2: Here everyone a.

992
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: Quick correction, I summarize this wrong in my notes. The

993
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: Ali Andoki fight ended in a draw, not a ref stoppage. Also,

994
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 1: Allie nearly lost his leg from the infection caused by

995
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: the injury he got there, which is wild.

996
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 2: Sorry about that. So fo a disaster wanders after him

997
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 2: while he like throws Antonio and Oki kept throwing himself

998
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 2: on the mat and throwing like lake kicks from like

999
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 2: a butt scoot position. So it just it felt like

1000
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 2: an eight year old who heard the rules of the

1001
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: match and he's like, aha, technically, I know how I

1002
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 2: can defeat you, and there's nothing you can do. It's

1003
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: so unn and stupid and pathetic and boring, and everybody lost.

1004
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, we all lost all real alien versus predator situation.

1005
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1006
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: So at this point, Vincent's career as a promoter is

1007
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:20,359
Speaker 1: not looking promising, right, And in fact, two months the do.

1008
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 3: Sound like ideas that came from the guy who invented XFL.

1009
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 3: They certainly do. They certainly do the.

1010
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 2: Organization.

1011
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, two months before the alianok fight, he and Linda

1012
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: go bankrupt to a million. There are a million dollars

1013
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: in debt. And then right after the well deserved, well deserved,

1014
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: right after the fight. They have a kid. Now, for

1015
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: most people this would be an impossible to recover from situation, right,

1016
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: But Vince Junior is Vince Senior's son. Using the connections

1017
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: that he had made through being the kid of a

1018
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 1: rich and successful guy, he and Linda, dealing with bankruptcy,

1019
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: are able to put together enough investment money to buy

1020
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: the Cape Cod Coliseum, which yeah, yeah, yeah there because

1021
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: again they're rich people, right, it's fine. So their plan

1022
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 1: is to turn this into a modestly successful venue for

1023
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: concerts and the like and kind of get their bones

1024
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: about how to do this business through it. By this point,

1025
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: by the time they're up and running with the Cape

1026
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: Cod Colisseum, they've got two kids, Shane and Stephanie. Both

1027
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: of them will go on to work in the WWF,

1028
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: but since Vince started having them work clean up at

1029
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:34,320
Speaker 1: the coliseum as a parent. He described himself as a disciplinarian,

1030
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: telling Playboy, I'm real big on respect. I was on

1031
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: the road a lot, and I'm sure that when I

1032
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 1: was at home the kids wanted me back on the road.

1033
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: I do not doubt that.

1034
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 2: Vents. Yeah, yeah, that's Scance magazine.

1035
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:49,280
Speaker 3: What a weird fucking story.

1036
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: To share.

1037
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 3: He brags about the strangest things in that interview. It's

1038
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 3: a remarkable document. I was real monster, daved been terror

1039
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,919
Speaker 3: of the sound of my voice. Anyway, that's my love,

1040
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 3: my kids.

1041
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: So Cape Cod is not a big party town, and

1042
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: the previous owner of the coliseum had banned rock shows

1043
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: after a disastrous Ted Nugent concert.

1044
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 3: If it was going to be anyone.

1045
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm surprised it was the new.

1046
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 1: Town. Yeah yeah, now yeah, I will say Ted NuGen,

1047
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: if he were to tell me that he stole a

1048
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 1: bunch of cars, I would say, that does sound like you,

1049
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: Ted NuGen, thank you. One of these days. Well that

1050
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:41,399
Speaker 1: got that one loaded up in the hopper. So the

1051
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: town did not love the McMahon's plans there, and the

1052
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,479
Speaker 1: local government decided to go after them by modifying their

1053
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,439
Speaker 1: license in order to restrict the alcohol that they could

1054
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: sell at the coliseum. The McMahons were sure that this

1055
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: would sink the business, and they decided the best response

1056
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: was to fight the local government head on. The way

1057
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: that they do this is like they show up at

1058
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 1: a hearing with all of the selectmen, which is the

1059
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 1: town legislators, and they bring a bunch of supporters. Right,

1060
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: they get a bunch of like local fans, people who

1061
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: want to like go to shows and be able to

1062
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: drink and think that their plans for the coliseum are good.

1063
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: And they have like one hundred and fifty of these

1064
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: people swarm the meeting so that it's crowded out with

1065
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 1: the people who support them, and basically they kind of

1066
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 1: bully their way into convincing, you know, the selectmen to

1067
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: give them the votes that they need in order to

1068
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: reduce the restrictions on their operations and allow them to

1069
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: sell all the hard liquor they want right occupy the

1070
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: Board of Selectors. Yeah, this is the first time that

1071
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: the McMahons ever used the political system for their own profit,

1072
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: but it would not be the last. So as the

1073
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties dawned, the WWF was a more successful business

1074
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: than Vince Senior had ever dreamed. There was no more

1075
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: penny pinching for him.

1076
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:51,439
Speaker 3: At least.

1077
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: He was wealthy and beloved, but he was also old

1078
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: and mostly spending his time chilling out in Florida. He

1079
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: also saw trouble on the horizon for his b business.

1080
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: By this point, Ted Turner had launched TBS, which I'm

1081
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 1: going to guess ninety percent of our listeners don't remember,

1082
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 1: but was the first super channel, right. It was a

1083
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: big deal at the time, and Ted hosted wrestling from

1084
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: another company that was not affiliated with Vince McMahon. Sam

1085
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: Muchnik had retired from the NWA at this point, and

1086
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: it was teetering. Vince Senior knew that he didn't have

1087
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: the health or the energy to navigate yet another era

1088
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: of the business, but he also didn't particularly want his

1089
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: son to follow him. He didn't want any of his

1090
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: kids to follow him, and most of them seemed fine

1091
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 1: with this because they were rich, but Vince Junior was

1092
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 1: still obsessed with wrestling and wanted more than anything to

1093
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: own his dad's business. Still, Vince Senior refused to give

1094
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: it to him, so eventually they worked out a purchase

1095
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,439
Speaker 1: deal on extremely strict terms. Vince would need to pay

1096
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: one million dollars to his dad and several shareholders in

1097
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 1: just a year's time. If he missed a single payment,

1098
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: they got back control of the WAF and got to

1099
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: keep all of the money that he'd paid them. Now

1100
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 1: it is somewhat unclear how he managed to make these payments.

1101
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 1: He told one reporter that he did it by quote,

1102
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: using mirrors and getting the help of a guru. I

1103
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 1: don't know what the fuck that means.

1104
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 2: Nobody seems to what you use a mirror, you turn

1105
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 2: ten bucks into twenty bucks.

1106
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 3: No one seems to know what.

1107
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 2: Right there.

1108
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 3: I don't have trouble believing that he was involved with

1109
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 3: some weird cult leader who helped him out on the radio.

1110
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 3: That would not be beyond Vince McMahon. Whatever, however he

1111
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 3: did it. He buys the WWF in nineteen eighty two,

1112
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 3: and he pays it off before the end of nineteen

1113
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 3: eighty three. At this point, most people would have described

1114
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 3: his position in the industry as solid but challenging. Right

1115
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 3: Ted Turner's rising up, we're kind of entering a new era.

1116
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 3: Vince has a plan, though, and he's got a plan

1117
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 3: not just to kind of keep the business going as

1118
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 3: his father had, but to destroy all of the other

1119
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 3: region syndicates and make himself the undisputed king of wrestling nationwide.

1120
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 3: He later said, I knew my dad wouldn't really have

1121
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 3: sold me the business had he known what I was

1122
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 3: going to do.

1123
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 2: I believe that party. I do believe that part of

1124
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 2: the way.

1125
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, this could I have to say here

1126
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 1: when it comes to like how he destroyed the regionals,

1127
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: this is probably going to be one of This is

1128
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,479
Speaker 1: definitely one of the longest scripts we've ever done. It might,

1129
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: by the end, wind up competing with the fucking kiss

1130
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 1: Kissinger episodes for length. At a certain point, I have

1131
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: had to decide there are chunks of the Vince McMahon

1132
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: story that we are going to have to blow through

1133
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: in order to avoid like driving people insane with a

1134
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: series that's just far too long. What you need to

1135
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 1: know is this, after Vince took over from his dad,

1136
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: he shredded the gentleman's agreement that the promoters had previously,

1137
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: and he set to work destroying the NWA and as

1138
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: many of the other regionals as he could by spreading

1139
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: WWF evins across the country, and most of the regional

1140
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: hours die one by one during this period. He doesn't

1141
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: totally wipe them out, but he he spreads the WWF

1142
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: to be nationwide and most of them die kind of

1143
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: as a result of this, or get acquired. If you

1144
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: want more detail about how this process went, the most

1145
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: accessible and detailed account is in Ringmaster Josie Riisman's book,

1146
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: If you were a huge wrestling nerd and you went

1147
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: forensic detail about how this went, the book Death of

1148
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: the Territories is the best resource by a mile. Now,

1149
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: A big part of the weakness of these kind of

1150
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: regional syndicates is that they didn't understand TV the way

1151
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 1: that Vince McMahon did. For them, wrestling TV was big business,

1152
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: but it was kind of a normal TV business. Because

1153
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: did Vince understand TV? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's good at this.

1154
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: He's been a disaster before. But he figures something important out,

1155
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: which is that most people in the biz are using

1156
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 1: TV the way that normal people use TV to make money, right,

1157
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: where you put on a thing and it attracts advertisers

1158
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 1: and you make money.

1159
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: Right.

1160
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: Vince was willing to give his shows to broadcasters for

1161
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: free because he realized that whatever money he could get

1162
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 1: from ads, especially in these local TV networks, is pennies

1163
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 1: next to the value of promoting live shows and filling

1164
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: stadiums with fans. Vince was the guy who realized televised

1165
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: wrestling doesn't exist because TV's a good business. Televised wrestling

1166
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: puts butts in seats and sells merchandise and that's how

1167
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: you make the big fucking bucks. And he's very successful

1168
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: at this. Now, Vincent Senor is not proud of what

1169
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: his son's doing here because he's kind of doing this

1170
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: as he's using TV. He'll basically like give you know,

1171
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 1: broadcast rights to a bunch of local TV stations that

1172
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: he's not currently the WWF isn't currently in this town,

1173
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 1: or the state, or this part of the country, and

1174
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: that he'll use that to build up interests so that

1175
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 1: he can then bring the WWF to this new state,

1176
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: start hosting show and slowly choke out another regional competitor, right,

1177
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:04,959
Speaker 1: Like that's the actual tact.

1178
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And assuming a lot of the other

1179
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 3: promotions aren't rich enough to do the same thing.

1180
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. He's got the size, he's got the money

1181
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: to use as a base to kind of conquer from.

1182
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: And Vincent Senior is kind of horrified by what his

1183
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: son's doing here. For all that he could be ruthless,

1184
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 1: he was also kind of a team player with the

1185
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 1: guys he saw as his equals, and some of these

1186
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: guys are also his friends, right, These are his like

1187
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: buddies that he's been in business around for years. So

1188
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: some of these guys call Vince Senior in a panic

1189
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 1: once it becomes clear that his son is on the

1190
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: cusp of destroying them. He complained to his son, He

1191
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 1: apologized to them, but it didn't matter. He wasn't in

1192
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 1: charge anymore and there was nothing he could do. Hey, everybody,

1193
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:51,439
Speaker 1: Robert here. This wound up running long, like two hours long,

1194
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 1: and so we just needed to roll some of this

1195
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 1: episode into part four, which we're going to do so

1196
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 1: that this is not insane and d wieldy for our

1197
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 1: editing team and for us. Since we don't have a

1198
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: normal outro for this one, I'm just gonna let you

1199
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 1: guys know that you can find you know what I'll do.

1200
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: I'll fake their voices while I do their pluggables.

1201
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 2: I'm shown Baby.

1202
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 3: You can find me at one.

1203
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, that's actually kind of disrespectful since this is

1204
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: their plugs. You can find Sean Baby at one nine

1205
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 1: hundred hot Dog, the last comedy website tragically pretty close

1206
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: to true, and you can back them on Patreon as well.

1207
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: That is again one nine hundred hot Dog, And of

1208
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: course Tom Ryman you can find on Gamefully Unemployed, which

1209
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 1: does podcasts and all sorts of great content there, everything

1210
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 1: from like movie reviews to you know, watch throughs of

1211
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:51,439
Speaker 1: shows like X Files and yeah, a lot of great

1212
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: content gamefully unemployed on Patreon. You can find them there.

1213
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 1: I apologize for not doing a fake Tom voice, but

1214
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: let's all be honest, it would have been almost identical

1215
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 1: to my fake.

1216
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: Sean Baby voice. Behind the Bastards is a production of

1217
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit

1218
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 2: our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on

1219
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.