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Speaker 1: You're the CEO of the Atlantic. You're also the American

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Speaker 1: record holder for.

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Speaker 2: Fifty K for men forty five and l.

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Speaker 1: What would be your tips for somebody trying to get faster?

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Speaker 2: Well, the equation that determines how fast you go is

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Speaker 2: power multiplied by efficiency divided by mass. You did really

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Speaker 2: good at understanding what is good pain and what is

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Speaker 2: bad pain. Your uc day should be easy, your hard

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Speaker 2: day should be hard. That running is a way to

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Speaker 2: explain and process hard things in life. My father, we

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Speaker 2: have this very hard, complicated relationship, but running is part

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Speaker 2: of what helps it to stay a piece. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you want to excel, you have to actually like.

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Speaker 3: What's up, guys.

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Speaker 1: It's Kate Max and today we're sitting down with Nicholas Thompson,

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Speaker 1: CEO of the Atlantic and a record setting endurance athlete

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Speaker 1: with some unbelievable personal stories right here on post run high.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back with our conversation after this short break.

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Speaker 2: All right, Oh wow, that's fun.

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Speaker 3: What a run?

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Speaker 1: That great perfect temperature, lovely day fall, foliage, like just draw.

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Speaker 2: Vibes out there, the kids, the other people, people smiling

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Speaker 2: and other runners.

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Speaker 3: Great there, Nicholas Thompson welcome to post run. Huh.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Kate. It's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you so. Nick and I

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Speaker 1: just ran three miles in Dumbo. We ran along the

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge Park. It's one of my favorite places to run.

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Speaker 1: You're a massive runner. Do you run here a lot?

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Speaker 3: Like? Is that a trail you do?

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Speaker 2: It's not. I probably run it every other week. I

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Speaker 2: do love it, you know, And sometimes I'll drop my

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Speaker 2: kids to play soccer at Pier six and I'll go

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Speaker 2: run it. I wore while we were running, wore my

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Speaker 2: academ fifty k which starts at Evil Twin Brewing and

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Speaker 2: so it has like a whole bunch of loops around there.

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Speaker 2: But I'm kind of more Prospect Park.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting knowing that they do a lot of fifty

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Speaker 1: k's in New York. Like, I feel like I've never

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Speaker 1: heard of that race before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a weird race, but it's cool. It starts here,

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Speaker 2: and you like you run across and back. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the bridge is like nine times and then you go

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Speaker 2: up to Middle Village, Queens. It's in April or maybe

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Speaker 2: it's March.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, do you do that? Like every year.

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Speaker 2: I just did it this year. I'll do it next

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Speaker 2: year too.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you are a long distance runner, a marathon runner,

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Speaker 1: and an ultra marathon runner.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and what would you say your race breakdown?

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Speaker 2: Is y?

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Speaker 3: Really like? You just did the New York City Marathon.

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Speaker 3: What else do you have on tap?

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Speaker 2: So this last year I ran the ickid In fifty k.

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Speaker 2: Then I ran the Lake Warmog fifty miler, and then

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Speaker 2: it took a break, and then I was really focused

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Speaker 2: on running a sub five minute mile on my fiftieth

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Speaker 2: birthday with my kid. We did that. Then I ran

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Speaker 2: the Twisted Branch hundred k, then I ran the Grand Canyon,

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Speaker 2: and then I ran the New York City Marathon.

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Speaker 3: Did your kid run a sub five He paced.

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Speaker 2: Me for twelve hundred meters. He is a sub five

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Speaker 2: minute miler. He wasn't in peak shape, so he dropped

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Speaker 2: out at twelve hundred. Wow, but he did pascee me

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Speaker 2: to the Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So you have three kids, three boys, three boys? And

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Speaker 1: is that your oldest?

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Speaker 2: So my oldest is seventeen and he's more of a hiker.

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Speaker 2: The fifteen year old is an excellent runner. Eleven year

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Speaker 2: old's a excellent runner.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're following in your footsteps.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're more focused on soccer, but they do like running.

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Speaker 1: I like that you said that you'll drop your kids

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Speaker 1: off the peer for soccer, which, by the way, I

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Speaker 1: always see kids on that peer playing soccer and it's

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Speaker 1: fun to see. And that you will then go for

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Speaker 1: a run because growing up, I had like a crazy

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Speaker 1: Jersey mom that was always on the sidelines screaming at

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Speaker 1: me if I did anything wrong and across or I

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Speaker 1: didn't really play soccer but lacrosse basketball, but there were

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Speaker 1: some moms that would get out there and dads and

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Speaker 1: kind of go for a run around the tournament fields

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Speaker 1: or you know, wherever we were playing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. My commitment is like for parenting, is

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Speaker 2: take them anywhere, right, and then if they're playing in

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Speaker 2: the game, watch them in the game. But if it's practice,

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Speaker 2: it's warm ups, Like I might be doing running and

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Speaker 2: it's half time, I might be doing planks. Right, you

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Speaker 2: had to get your workout in and like, as every

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Speaker 2: new parent learns, like time gets so crunched.

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Speaker 3: No, it's so true.

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Speaker 1: You really have to fit it in when you can,

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Speaker 1: especially with kids, especially when you're running around with kids,

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Speaker 1: bringing them to games and whatever. I also think the

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Speaker 1: beautiful thing about running and just body workouts like planks

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Speaker 1: is that you really can do it anywhere. And that's

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Speaker 1: my favorite thing about running is all you need is

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Speaker 1: a pair of sneakers. They can be old sneakers, doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter how long you've worn them for. You can go

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Speaker 1: barefoot if you want to. But you really can do

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Speaker 1: it anywhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can do it anywhere. And sometimes it embarrasses

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Speaker 2: your kids, but sometimes it's cool. I remember I was

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Speaker 2: I was like doing airplanes on the sideline, right, you

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Speaker 2: know where you put your one leg up and like

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Speaker 2: this and you go out to the side. I was

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Speaker 2: during one of my son's soccer practices and then they're

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Speaker 2: running around and I hear two of them and not

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Speaker 2: with my kid, and one of them is like that

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Speaker 2: weird dude is like what's he doing on the sideline,

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Speaker 2: And the other guy's like, that's Zach Stad He's the

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Speaker 2: American record holder. And the guy was like, oh cool, okay.

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Speaker 1: Wait, so we talked about this on the run. You

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Speaker 1: are the American record holder for.

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Speaker 2: Fifty K for men forty five and up. So it's

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Speaker 2: a pretty obscure race and obscure distance and like narrow

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Speaker 2: age band. But it's still the case that I have

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Speaker 2: run it faster than anybody has run it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and can you tell us the story behind it?

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Speaker 1: I know you said it on the run, but let's.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was fun. So I got fast at marathons,

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Speaker 2: and I was obsessed with marathons, and I ran like

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Speaker 2: a two twenty nine marathon at age forty four, forty five,

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Speaker 2: and then COVID hit and so I'd had this great

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Speaker 2: progression and I was like I'm running two twenty five,

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Speaker 2: you know, And then it was all like there are

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Speaker 2: no marathons, there's nothing to do. And at some point

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Speaker 2: during COVID, des Linden's agent, Des Linden, the great Boston

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Speaker 2: Marathon winner. The agent wrote reached out and was like, hey,

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Speaker 2: you want to pace DEAs. She's gonna try to set

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Speaker 2: the world record in the fifty k. And this is like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember, but DEAs in October

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Speaker 2: of COVID, October twenty twenty ran like one mile in

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Speaker 2: October first, like sixteen miles on October sixteen, thirty one miles,

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Speaker 2: like she was training, you know, like she'd like lost

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Speaker 2: a bet, you know, like playing beer pong, and so

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Speaker 2: Des is doing this cuckoo thing, and I'm like, sure,

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Speaker 2: I'll come with you. And I realized the American record

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Speaker 2: for men is just about the world record for women,

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Speaker 2: and so it's perfect. And so we go out to

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Speaker 2: Oregon in April, you know, out on this beautiful flat

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Speaker 2: road right, because you can optimize all the conditions right

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Speaker 2: at the time, the weather. We could even optimize the

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Speaker 2: day right. And so we go out into this parking lot.

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Speaker 2: It's like on a Tuesday, and perfect, perfect conditions, and

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Speaker 2: I go and I run. I wasn't her pacer because

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Speaker 2: she'd kind of gotten too fast. I ended up running

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Speaker 2: like a three h four and she ran like a

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Speaker 2: two fifty eight. The old American record and the women's

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Speaker 2: world record I both been like three oh six. But

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Speaker 2: it was amazing. I broke the tape and it's like

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Speaker 2: the best race I ever ran.

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Speaker 1: Was it an actual race that you guys were running

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Speaker 1: with other people or was this something that you guys

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Speaker 1: just did on your own.

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Speaker 2: There were like ten people in the race, okay, and

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Speaker 2: everybody was trying for something else. So Dess had her pacer.

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Speaker 2: This guy Charlie Lawrence. There's this guy Peter Bromco is

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Speaker 2: a really good writer. Ryan Hall, like the American record

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Speaker 2: holder of the marathon, was there on a bike training

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Speaker 2: this like, uh, pacing this Lebanese woman who was trying

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Speaker 2: to make the Lebanese Olympic team, trying to get the standard,

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Speaker 2: so like all it was like she was just sort

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Speaker 2: of cuckoo. And there were like seven Dess's husband was

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Speaker 2: in the race. I don't know, maybe like eight people,

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Speaker 2: ten people, and I think most people dropped out. They

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Speaker 2: had a marathon marker and then they had a fifty

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Speaker 2: k marker. Most people dropped out at the marathon, so

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Speaker 2: I think it was just me and Dess for the

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Speaker 2: fifty k at the end.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that is a whole other level of Hardoh,

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Speaker 1: when it's just you and like ten other people and

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Speaker 1: you're out there running this insanely fast time, Because talk

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Speaker 1: about the inner strength and the mental strength to push

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Speaker 1: yourself through that when there's nobody cheering for you on

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Speaker 1: the sidelines. You know, it's not like the New York

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Speaker 1: City Marathon that you've got bands playing and student groups

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Speaker 1: out there singing. Like you guys were pretty much alone

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Speaker 1: out there.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's ultra running, right, Like, you go and you

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Speaker 2: run an ultra run and you're there might not be

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Speaker 2: another human for like a mile. You know, you're just

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Speaker 2: up on these mountains. You're crossing rivers, you know. The

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Speaker 2: last ultra reun I ran, I like, I'm like three

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Speaker 2: miles from anything, and I bang my foot on a

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Speaker 2: route and my toenail splits off and like it hurts

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Speaker 2: so much, right, and you got to get to the

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Speaker 2: next age station. Then at the age station, like do

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Speaker 2: you have any tape? You tape it up and you

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Speaker 2: keep running. So you just when you're in the ultra world,

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Speaker 2: you kind of it's just a little bit different. But

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Speaker 2: that race, that's the other thing that was very funny

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Speaker 2: is we finish and it's a Brooks sponsored race because

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Speaker 2: they're a sponsor, and I've been wearing Nikes and at

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Speaker 2: the end of a race, you said a record. I

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Speaker 2: didn't know this guy. I've never said a record before.

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Speaker 2: You have to drink champagne out of your shoes and

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Speaker 2: so they're like, okay, Nick, you got to drink champagn

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Speaker 2: out of your shoes. I'm like great, and they're like,

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Speaker 2: but you gotta have Brook shoes, and so Dessa's husband

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Speaker 2: is like, would you like to drink champagne out of

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Speaker 2: my shoes? And I was like, Ryan, I really like you.

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed meeting you here, But like, how about I

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Speaker 2: I'll drink out of my shoes, but I'll cover the logo.

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Speaker 2: And so it's a funny photograph of me like drinking

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Speaker 2: champagne out of my shoes with my hand over the swoosh.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine you're like drinking champagn out of somebody

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Speaker 1: else's smelly sneakers. I'm like, mine are one thing, but

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Speaker 1: somebody else's.

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Speaker 3: Are a whole.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna have been interesting. If he had said, you

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Speaker 2: can't do the photograph unless you do my shoes, it

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Speaker 2: would have been the right choice to drink out of

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Speaker 2: his shoes. That's what I guys. I say that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I just find it so fascinating because you

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Speaker 1: have this big job.

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Speaker 3: You're the CEO of the Atlantic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're also running seventy plus miles I'm sure a week.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: You know, you've got three kids, you're a dad.

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Speaker 1: You have all these side quests going on with your

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Speaker 1: your running schedule, right, I mean doing ultras and marathons.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a lot, and it's super interesting, Like how

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Speaker 1: do you make time for it?

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Speaker 2: So there are a couple of things. So one is

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Speaker 2: I do have a bunch of life hacks that make

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Speaker 2: it much easier than you would think. So I run

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Speaker 2: to and from the office. Right. It takes about the

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Speaker 2: same amount time as a subway. But I'm getting eight

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Speaker 2: to ten miles a day, and during that time, I'm

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Speaker 2: often also working. Right, I'm listening to I have a

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Speaker 2: queue of podcasts i have to listen to for work people.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to interview events, I'm going to host like

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Speaker 2: and so it's very productive time and I'm getting in

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Speaker 2: my runs. All my cross training, one hundred percent of

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Speaker 2: my cross training is with my children, right, Like we

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Speaker 2: go to the gym and we lift together, they like

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Speaker 2: have me go do sprints. My cross training is quite

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Speaker 2: erratic because it's all with my children. But like all

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Speaker 2: the cross training I've done for the last fifteen years

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Speaker 2: has been like, Okay, we're gonna play NERF basketball with

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Speaker 2: the kids, right, So that's all parenting. I also, then,

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Speaker 2: of course, do do these long runs, right, and I'll

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Speaker 2: get up before they wake up, right, I'll get up

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Speaker 2: at five and I'll go run on the Averizona or

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Speaker 2: you know, around under the Verizona, around Coney Island or wherever.

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Speaker 2: And then there's this beautiful thing happening now, which is

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Speaker 2: I can train with them. So, you know, this summer,

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Speaker 2: my fifteen year old and I would go out and

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Speaker 2: we'd go run four hundred me to repeat, So i'd

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Speaker 2: lead one, he'd lead one. I'd lead one, he'd lead one.

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Speaker 2: I lead one, he'd lead one, and you know, soon

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Speaker 2: he'll be cooking me and we'll have to you know,

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Speaker 2: it used to be the case that we would do

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Speaker 2: four hundred meter repeat where I would like run three

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Speaker 2: hundred and he'd run the last hundred. Probably like this

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Speaker 2: coming summer, it'll have to be like that and reverse.

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Speaker 2: But it's great. So I try to just mix. I

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Speaker 2: try to do two things at once as much as possible. Right,

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Speaker 2: If you can do your cross training and your parenting,

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Speaker 2: if you can do your running and your commuting, right,

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Speaker 2: that's the way to do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm very similar in that way.

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Speaker 1: Like if I'm going out for a solo run, which

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Speaker 1: I try to go every morning before, like before we

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Speaker 1: ran together, I ran four miles and I do the

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Speaker 1: same thing.

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Speaker 3: I'm listening to podcasts.

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Speaker 1: I'm studying for the week ahead and the interviews that

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Speaker 1: I have coming up. I think that's the really cool

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Speaker 1: thing about about podcasts is, especially when you love to

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Speaker 1: do long distance running, is you just like your headphones

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Speaker 1: in and.

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Speaker 2: Get to I mean, I am very I never listen

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Speaker 2: to them if I'm doing a workout right, and I

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Speaker 2: never listened to them if I'm like in the woods, right.

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Speaker 2: It's just when I'm in the when you're like being operational,

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Speaker 2: functional and efficient. Because when you're in the woods, for

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Speaker 2: me at least, it's like that's like spiritual and you're

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Speaker 2: trying to like clear your head. And then when you're racing,

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Speaker 2: when you're working out right and you're doing four by

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Speaker 2: two miles, you're eight mile tempo, you're trying to like

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Speaker 2: process the body signals and you're trying to understand your

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Speaker 2: form and you're trying to understand your heart rate. You

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Speaker 2: don't want anything interrupting it. But when I'm like warming

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Speaker 2: up for that or when I'm just like jogging around

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Speaker 2: Queen's or wherever I am, Yeah, I'm listening to podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so true, because I do feel like with

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Speaker 1: whatever the form of movement is that you're doing, the

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Speaker 1: intention behind the workout is so important. And yeah, like

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Speaker 1: the runs where I mean, I'm often multitasking and I

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Speaker 1: am listening to podcasts and studying at the same time

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Speaker 1: as you know, doing a solo workout, but you're so

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Speaker 1: right that you do kind of have to be just

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Speaker 1: locked in on the workout sometimes to really make it efficient. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a funny thing about running where it's

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Speaker 2: like sometimes we'll think about it like, Okay, so if

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Speaker 2: a marathon prep is twelve weeks and I do two

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Speaker 2: hard workouts a week and it's like four by two miles,

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Speaker 2: that's like okay, that's a really hard work out. That's

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Speaker 2: forty and you add it up and the total amount

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Speaker 2: of time where you really are hurting yourself is like

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Speaker 2: fifteen hours. It's like not that much time, and so

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Speaker 2: you just actually have to be focused those fifteen hours.

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Speaker 2: And when you look at it that way, it kind

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Speaker 2: of seems simpler than like, oh, it's twelve weeks of

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Speaker 2: hard workouts. You go to the track and you're like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna run sixteen by four hundred right, and that's

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Speaker 2: like twenty minutes, right, you just have to like twenty

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Speaker 2: minutes where you have to be focused.

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Speaker 3: Do you feel like you're always training?

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Speaker 1: Because I feel like I talk to a lot of

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Speaker 1: long distance runners and I'll say, you know, what does

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Speaker 1: your training schedule look like for the New York City

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Speaker 1: Marathon or whatever marathon it may be, And They're like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't really, I don't really train because I'm always training.

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Speaker 2: I do. I do more periodization than that, maybe less

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Speaker 2: than I used to. I used run New York City

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Speaker 2: Marathon and then I would kind of take a break

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Speaker 2: until January and then I might pick it up and

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Speaker 2: run Boston. Now it's a little more fluid, but I

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Speaker 2: do try to take a couple week break after a

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Speaker 2: race or you know, after the like Warmark fifty miler

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Speaker 2: in April, I took quite a bit of downtime before

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Speaker 2: you getting.

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Speaker 3: At it again, what does your downtime looking?

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Speaker 2: Well, then I'm just running to work, right, and like

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Speaker 2: maybe I'm running one way, right, so I'm running like

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Speaker 2: four miles a day. I remember like thirty five forty

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Speaker 2: miles a week.

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Speaker 3: What about post the New York City Marathon, Like, what

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Speaker 3: were you doing in the last eleven days.

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Speaker 2: Well, so the New Yorky marith in this year was

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Speaker 2: so weird because I got quite sick before it and

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Speaker 2: then I ran quite slowly. And so what I didn't

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Speaker 2: know is whether I ran the marathon like thirty minutes

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Speaker 2: slower than I'd expected to run it. And in fact,

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Speaker 2: I probably ran twenty six point two miles ten times

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Speaker 2: this year faster than I ran the New York City Marathon.

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Speaker 2: Just didn't like runs, and I ran the marathon much

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Speaker 2: slower than I ran the first twenty six miles of

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Speaker 2: my fifty mile race. So I didn't know like what

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Speaker 2: my recovery would be. I was like, well, maybe I'll

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Speaker 2: just be like an easy run, but it wasn't. The

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Speaker 2: recovery has actually been like a real marathon because I

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Speaker 2: really did. I was straining a weakened body, and so

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Speaker 2: I've been kind of a ratic where at first I

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Speaker 2: was like, I'll just get back at it, and now

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Speaker 2: I realized, okay, I need to take a little time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So we were talking about on the run that

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Speaker 1: year you were aiming for a two thirty you ended

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Speaker 1: up doing a three zero six and this past marathon,

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Speaker 1: but you are somebody that's been able to get down

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Speaker 1: to a two thirty marathon a very fast time, And

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Speaker 1: you were saying that you went from kind of consistently

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Speaker 1: running two forty three marathons to then all to then

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Speaker 1: really breaking through. So what would be your tips for

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Speaker 1: somebody trying to get faster?

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Speaker 3: What do they have to focus on with?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so there are a number of things to get

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Speaker 2: faster ways to get faster. You know, Increase the amount

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Speaker 2: of mileage you run always helps, right, And so you

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Speaker 2: go from fifty miles a week to sixty to seventy,

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Speaker 2: and you've got to figure out how it depends on

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Speaker 2: your schedule and depends on your like how durable you are,

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Speaker 2: because like that you're playing with fire. But you should

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Speaker 2: increase like five percent a week. You know you're doing fifty,

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Speaker 2: Maybe you go up to fifty two and then fifty five.

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Speaker 2: Maybe go up two weeks down a week, but build

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Speaker 2: your mileage. Make your hard workouts hard, right, Your easy

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Speaker 2: day should be easy, Your herd day should be hard,

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Speaker 2: and like make your I do workouts on like Tuesdays

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Speaker 2: and Thursdays. But like you know, I just said four

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Speaker 2: by two miles, that's a hard workout. Like if you

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Speaker 2: if you're going like at your you're getting your heart

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Speaker 2: rate up to your maximal not quite your maximal level,

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Speaker 2: but like make your workouts really really count. So that's

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Speaker 2: that's important. I improve my diet. I started to be

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Speaker 2: a little My previous diet had been like a little defensive,

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Speaker 2: like no fatty foods, no extra sugar, no processed foods.

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Speaker 2: And then it became like a little more offensive. Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's get the beat you. So let's get the dark

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Speaker 2: lea thy greens. Let's figure out exactly what I need today.

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Speaker 2: Let's try to figure out what kind of protein I

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Speaker 2: need today. So figuring out your diet can be super helpful.

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Speaker 2: I'm and this is like playing with fire too, but

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Speaker 2: I believe in form right, Like basically, the equation that

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Speaker 2: determines how fast you go is power multiplied by efficiency

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Speaker 2: divided by mass, right, and so there are three variables.

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Speaker 2: And power is like your fitness, like your cardiovascu, your fitness,

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Speaker 2: your leg strength, you know, it's kind of your cadence,

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Speaker 2: and that's what we're always training on. Mass is like

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Speaker 2: how much you weigh, and that's hard to deal with,

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Speaker 2: but like the less you weigh the faster you go,

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Speaker 2: but that's really complicated. And then efficiency is how well

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Speaker 2: you move through space, and you know that depends on

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Speaker 2: you know, how your arms are moving. It tends how

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Speaker 2: your head is centered over your shoulders, right, And so

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Speaker 2: I think a lot about form when I run, and

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Speaker 2: I do think that having proper form. Most people are like, ah,

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Speaker 2: you know, your body figures it out, just run the

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Speaker 2: way you want to run. And I don't believe that.

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Speaker 2: And I believe that, like there are better and worse

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Speaker 2: ways to run. And I don't have the perfect form.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm a little stiff. I don't have the

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Speaker 2: right kind of forward lean that if you watch like

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Speaker 2: Bernard l like got and the best runners they have.

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Speaker 2: But I think a little bit about form and so

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Speaker 2: and then get your rest and your recovery, because when

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Speaker 2: you start training, when you're really burning the way like

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Speaker 2: I was when I was getting fast and running into

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Speaker 2: twenty nine, you've got to you know, you're gonna get

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Speaker 2: hurt if you don't. If you don't let yourself you recover.

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Speaker 2: And so you have to get very good. This is

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Speaker 2: again ties into what I was saying about music and podcasts.

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Speaker 2: You have to get really good at understanding what is

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Speaker 2: good pain and what is bad pain, what is the

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Speaker 2: pain that's leading to an injury. It takes a long

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Speaker 2: time to learn that, be very cautious, but that's uh,

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Speaker 2: those are That's what I would be working on.

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Speaker 1: You know. I think one of the cool things about

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Speaker 1: you is and you know, we leaned into this a

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Speaker 1: little bit on the run, but we were saying, how

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Speaker 1: for you running for so long has been this really

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Speaker 1: like mental.

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Speaker 3: And spiritual thing for you.

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Speaker 1: But you also are somebody that's training right and trying

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Speaker 1: to optimize your running and kind of push yourself to

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Speaker 1: that next level.

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Speaker 3: So it really is a bit of like this this

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Speaker 3: you know it uses people.

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Speaker 1: Right, But let's talk about running as a form of

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Speaker 1: mental clarity for you and and you know how that translates.

435
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 2: So there are a couple of things. So one is

436
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 2: I do believe it's a form of meditation, right, and

437
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,679
Speaker 2: I believe that. Like what I tell people if they're like, oh,

438
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,360
Speaker 2: I don't like to run, I can't run, I don't

439
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 2: get it. You know, what I say to them is okay,

440
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,600
Speaker 2: fair enough, lots of people don't, but go out tomorrow,

441
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,439
Speaker 2: put on your shoes, put on pair of shorts and

442
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 2: just run to whatever the lamppost is nearest your home.

443
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,560
Speaker 2: And when you do that, only think about what you

444
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,160
Speaker 2: see right, And then like when you run back, only

445
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 2: think about what you hear right. And suddenly you're like

446
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 2: your mind opens up in these interesting ways, and I

447
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,919
Speaker 2: feel like, oh, that's great. Like people start to love that.

448
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 2: So I do think that there are ways of getting

449
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 2: into it. For me, the mental clarity comes from doing that.

450
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 2: I actually was doing that a little bit while we

451
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,680
Speaker 2: were running, like just sort of enjoying the leaves. There's

452
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,919
Speaker 2: another form of mental clarity that is important to me,

453
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 2: which I use in racing, mostly in ultra racing, where

454
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 2: most of the time, and I did in the York

455
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 2: Marathon too, when I'm in a hard place, most of

456
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 2: the time, I'm like really fixated on how fast am

457
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 2: I going, how hard am I breathing? How do I feel?

458
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,640
Speaker 2: What is my heart rate? Right? And before every race,

459
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,280
Speaker 2: I make a spreadsheet and it's like, you know, from

460
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,920
Speaker 2: miles one through five, I want my heart rate to

461
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,520
Speaker 2: be between one twenty five and one thirty and I

462
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 2: want to be running between five fifty seven and six

463
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,560
Speaker 2: so two right, something like that. And if I'm going

464
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,240
Speaker 2: faster than five fifty seven, I should slow. If my

465
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 2: heart rate is above one thirty, I should slow, right.

466
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 2: And so you're kind of like building in you don't

467
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 2: know exactly how it's going to go, but you've like

468
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,159
Speaker 2: I set these domains and like for fifty mile race,

469
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 2: I'll do it for all fifty minis else. But there

470
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,480
Speaker 2: are points where you have to let that go because

471
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 2: you go crazy. And so like in the New York Marathon,

472
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,399
Speaker 2: I had made a little spreadsheet, but I had this

473
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 2: respiratory thing I didn't know. And so about about mile

474
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 2: I was going up the Queensboro Bridge, like mile fifteen,

475
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,960
Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, I'm not anywhere near

476
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 2: this right, Like I'm cooked. And so then I was like,

477
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 2: just release it, and I click a button on my watch,

478
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,159
Speaker 2: so I can no longer see my heart, right, I

479
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,960
Speaker 2: can no longer see my pace just tells me the

480
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 2: time of day. And then I start to try to

481
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 2: think that I'm like above myself. I'm trying to like

482
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 2: let myself release myself, like spiritually mental, and I'm just

483
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,920
Speaker 2: looking down on Nick running right, and so I'm sort

484
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,800
Speaker 2: of trying to like dissociate as opposed to associate. And

485
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 2: sometimes what I'll do is all then I'll like imagine

486
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 2: that I'm a child in the woods, right, Okay, now

487
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 2: I'm running through I'm now running like to Sergeant Mountain

488
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,679
Speaker 2: right in Acadian National Park. Right, I'm not running up

489
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 2: First Avenue, right. And that's a way to kind of

490
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,480
Speaker 2: release the stress because you can get you can you

491
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,360
Speaker 2: can boil over if you're like, my god, it's still

492
00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,480
Speaker 2: eleven miles to go. I just feel terrible again, and

493
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 2: I'll try forty miles to oh, and I feel horrible.

494
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,200
Speaker 2: So you know, there's a way of releasing yourself that's

495
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 2: really important too.

496
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like, while you're pushing yourself to this,

497
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, level of excellence, it's also like, oh, you're

498
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 1: running the New York City Marathon. You know, looking around,

499
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 1: it's like one of the most fun marathons to run

500
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 1: in the world. Right, So how do you balance sometimes

501
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 1: that performance that you're pushing yourself to do, which is

502
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 1: running a two thirty marathon, with also enjoying a race

503
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 1: like the New York City Marathon.

504
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 2: Well, that one's easy. The unfortunate answer is I just

505
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 2: don't I don't deal with the crowds. I don't focus

506
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,400
Speaker 2: on that. You absorb it, take, you take the love,

507
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 2: you take the chair, and you use it to push

508
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 2: you forward. But my focus is on forward motion, right,

509
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 2: And like you know, I always feel you know again,

510
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 2: my last marathon was a disaster, but most of the

511
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 2: marathons have been quite good than the last ten years.

512
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,160
Speaker 2: And you know, if I'm going to pack at five

513
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 2: people and we're running and one person is like high

514
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 2: fiving people on the side, a person's gonna finish ten

515
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 2: minutes behind me, right, It's just the way it works.

516
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 2: And so when I'm running, you hear and you see,

517
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 2: but you don't think about that. You're like you're actually

518
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 2: trying to block it in a way out and you're

519
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 2: trying to just focus on your breath, your form, your

520
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 2: forward motion. Because if you have every thought that is

521
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 2: not about moving forward, is eventually like energy that you're

522
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 2: going to wish you had at the end. And so

523
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 2: I'm very clear about what I'm doing.

524
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: So what are the thoughts going on in your mind

525
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 1: when you're running a race?

526
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 2: So not much, you know, it's actually not It's funny.

527
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 2: I sometimes when I was writing the book, I would

528
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 2: go for a run and I'd like bring my phone

529
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 2: or I'd even bring a notepad and I would write,

530
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 2: write down everything, Like, Okay, I just thought for the

531
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 2: last like three minutes about my dad. I was worried

532
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 2: about this sort of this complicated thing at work, and

533
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 2: I was worried about the subscription funnel, and I was interested,

534
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: you know, I was interested in how like what your

535
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: shadow looks like as you pass the streetlight as the

536
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 2: sun comes up. Right, Like whatever I'm writing about when

537
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 2: I'm in a race, I'm not thinking very much. I'm

538
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 2: just like, I'm thinking about my mantra right foot, left foot,

539
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 2: right foot, left foot, I'm thinking about pace heart right.

540
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,199
Speaker 2: But I'm not observing processing. Like if you were to

541
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 2: create a movie of whatever, you were to take the

542
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 2: movie that runs in my mind on like a run

543
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 2: in the woods, it'd be pretty interesting. Right If you

544
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 2: take the movie it runs in my mind in a

545
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 2: racer workout pretty dull. I mean, I do there are

546
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 2: some things that are interesting, right. I am trying to, like,

547
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 2: I am doing all the things to try to make

548
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,400
Speaker 2: myself more efficient, right, so I'm trying to like identify

549
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 2: what is the flattest part of the road, right, because

550
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 2: if you're running on an anglic part of the road,

551
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 2: you're putting more stress on one leg than the other. Right,

552
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 2: I'm trying to identify where the shade is, right, particularly

553
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 2: if it's a day where the temperature is above like fifty.

554
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 2: I'm trying to identify how to get in an air

555
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 2: pocket where you have somebody in front of you and

556
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 2: somebody behind you, right, because they push air into you

557
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: and they block air from coming into you. Right, I'm

558
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 2: trying to identify of the people near me who is

559
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 2: actually likely to run an even pace, Like if I

560
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 2: see an elite woman, she's probably gonna run an even pace.

561
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: If I see like a guy who's like, ah, like,

562
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 2: probably not right. So you want to stick with people

563
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: who you know are going to be like metronomes, and

564
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 2: you know you're thinking about where your water station is.

565
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 2: So there are like kind of boring running thoughts, like

566
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 2: what is the tangent that so important? Like what is

567
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: the most efficient line I can run? Because you don't

568
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 2: run efficient lines, you end u running twenty six point five,

569
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 2: right or twenty six point seven, And so I'm thinking

570
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 2: about all of that stuff. But that's all in like

571
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 2: to the service of how fast can I run this marathon?

572
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 3: So interesting?

573
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: I never even thought about some of those strategies, but

574
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: it's so true. It's like when they say, when you're

575
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 1: running in Central Park and you kind of are constantly

576
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: going with the direction of the park, one of your

577
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: body's one side of your body, the left, I guess,

578
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: does become stronger than the right because Central Park is

579
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: on a little bit of an angle.

580
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: I mean, think about a track, like you run the

581
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: same way around the track right, you know, you know,

582
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 2: you've got your left shoulder to the curve. Like you

583
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 2: go to a track and nobody's there, you should run

584
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 2: the other direction and try to balance yourself out. I

585
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 2: alternate directions in Prospect Park. When I run like one

586
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: with clock clockwise counterclockwise, your body can become asymmetrical very easily.

587
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: In the sport.

588
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 1: So your wife, you said, was a dance sir, Yeah,

589
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: and you've always been a runner? Are you?

590
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 3: Guys both very into health and fitness, because I feel

591
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 3: like dancer.

592
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: Is Yeah, she's you know, yes, our whole family is.

593
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: And the kids, you know are like my middle son

594
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 2: like cares more about what he eats than I do.

595
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: He's really focused on it. He's like really interested in

596
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: studying different kinds of proteins and making sure that we

597
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: have like the right kind of bread on the avocado

598
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 2: toast for breakfast. You know my wife, you know, now

599
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 2: that she's no longer dancing, it's less she's more interested

600
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: in the artistic elements of dancing, and she runs the

601
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 2: dance program with the new school, So she has a

602
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: you know, different relationship where it's less physical and more

603
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 2: about understanding it as an art.

604
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: What does eating look like in your household? Like, is

605
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: there certain food that you've found really helps with your training?

606
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: Are there certain supplements that you're taking that you're like, wow,

607
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: this really worked for me.

608
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: I don't eat. Yes, So every morning I get up.

609
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 2: I usually get up before all the kids get up.

610
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: My oldest son leads through school at seven, the other

611
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: guys at like eight fifteen, so I make breakfast for him.

612
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: I have the same thing every morning. I have, Like

613
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 2: I have this big container where I put in oatmeal

614
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 2: and sometimes protein oes, sometimes regular roads, and a bunch

615
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: of nuts, gus seeds, flax seed, ground flax seed because

616
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: you obsorb it better, A bunch of healthy stuff. I

617
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 2: give that to myself. I give it to my middle son,

618
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: put food on top of it. The other boys I

619
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 2: give like rice crispies right with food on top, because

620
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: they're less focused on it. Some days, like today, I

621
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: made avocado toast, cut up tomatoes, gave it to them,

622
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: you know, because the older guy wants protein, you know, lunch,

623
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: trying to have a grain bowl or a salad. I

624
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 2: do drink beat juice every day.

625
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 3: What does bee juice do?

626
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: So? Beatjuice has nitrates in it that help you carry

627
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 2: oxygen to the blood, carry oxygen through the blood so

628
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 2: to the muscles. One hundred percent. Like that is like

629
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: easiest nutritional hack. Drink bea juice before your rais and

630
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 2: your workouts. Do it every day, one hundred percent. It's

631
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: clearly it seems to have a There may be other

632
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 2: ways to get nitrates, but I think that beet juice

633
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: is quite healthy. So and then dinner, you know, family

634
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: of three soccer practice, it's chaos. Like you know, ideally

635
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: you're having like a healthy salad or like vegetable soup

636
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: or something, but sometimes you're just ordering burritos because life

637
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: is hard and supplement So I take al cicraline. I

638
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: take the bee juice. I've been taking magnesium theonaate trying

639
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: to help me recover from the marathon, taking rodola in

640
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: the morning to try to help me recover from the marathon.

641
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: I take creatine. I didn't up until this year, but

642
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: it seems very clear that the science of creatine is healthy.

643
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 2: Obviously caffeine is super healthy, and I take caffeine before

644
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: I run. Before I run a race, I'll do betuice, caffeine, citralline,

645
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: sometimes creatine if it's a If it's a marathon, I

646
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 2: won't do creatine because I don't like the increase in

647
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: body weight in the week before race. But that's the

648
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: kind of supplement mix.

649
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm definitely gonna start weaving beat juice. And I'm like,

650
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: you have mentioned beatjuice a lot of times. Even on

651
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: our run, we were talking about beatchus and now I'm like, okay,

652
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: we've got a common theme of beat you.

653
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a it's a pretty interesting one. I mean, like,

654
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: there may be other ways to get the nitrates, like

655
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 2: you can probably get it in by eating a lot

656
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: of kale, but BetUS is a very efficient way to

657
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 2: do it.

658
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: I was talking to Tim Tebow the other day and

659
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: we were talking about one of the supplements that he

660
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: started finding out that football players were taking for focus,

661
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: and it's called neuron and I had never heard of

662
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: it before, but I kind of want to check it

663
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: out now because he like spears by it. So it's

664
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: fun finding out what a big time athletes, you know,

665
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: like yourself, are are eating and using. But it's definitely

666
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: helpful when your family and your kids are also a

667
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: little bit in on it.

668
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 2: But yeah, totally. And then like you know, I also

669
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: when I'm running a race, I take keytones. If I'm

670
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: running a ultra marathon, I'm taking I haven't I haven't

671
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: started doing bicarp, which is what all the sort of

672
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 2: fast runners are doing. You know, some ultra runners think

673
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 2: you should do it. And then I try to teach

674
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: my kids like these are like this what you should

675
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 2: have a halftime right? Like this is these electrolytes, these

676
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 2: to the calories like and I'm a little more specific

677
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: with the fifteen year old because he's into it. In

678
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: the eleven year old, I'm just like, have some watermelon.

679
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: It as else a true internet.

680
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's it's fun that it's fun that your

681
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: fifteen year.

682
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: Old is into it. Yeah, that's great, that's really fun. Yeah.

683
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: What do you feel like you've learned about running through

684
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 3: your fifteen year old?

685
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 2: Oh? From my fifteen year old. The most important thing

686
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: is he more than anybody I've ever watched shows the

687
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: weird way that talent works. And so you put my

688
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 2: kid out. You to take ten kids his age, and

689
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: none of them have run for two months, and you say,

690
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: go run a mile. My kid will not do well.

691
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: Maybe he'll be seventh place. And then you say to them,

692
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: you guys all do the same workouts for the next month.

693
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: At the end of the month, my kid will be

694
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: first place. Right. He has this like trainability, right, and

695
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: so when he starts training, he improves faster than everybody else.

696
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: And this is an interesting thing about talent that I

697
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: write about in the book. We all think about talent

698
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: as like where you start. Right, If you put like

699
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: a bunch of people who up been trained and you

700
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:43,959
Speaker 2: put them on a field, who gets to the end

701
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: that person has talent? But that's not actually what talent is, right.

702
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: Talent is a bunch of other things too. It's like

703
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: your trainability, right, it's your durability. And so this woman

704
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: Julia Lucas, who I read about in the book. You know,

705
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: we were running one point and she came as close

706
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: as you can get to the Olympics and not make it,

707
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: you know. She at one point we often in my generation,

708
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: talent was kind of considered your votwo max, which is

709
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: like a measure of your oxygen car and capacity, and

710
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: like you'd all get tested for your VIEO two max,

711
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: and like Lance Armstrong's it's ninety two, right, and the

712
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: best kid on the Stanford team is eighty. And I

713
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: got tested for Vo two max and I was like

714
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: sixty five, right, not very high. That's high, but not

715
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: that high. And I was starting with Julia, and Julia

716
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: was like, at one point, what was your VIO two max?

717
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: I was like sixty five And she started to laugh,

718
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: right because it's like such a low number for someone

719
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: like her. And then she's like, well, you know what, like,

720
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: but you do have this talent because you've never been heard, right,

721
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: And she's like, you're like a car with a small

722
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: engine and a frame that makes it super durable. And

723
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: she's like I'm a car with a huge engine and

724
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: a frame that cracks all the time, right, And like

725
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: which one's talent, right? Is it the VO two Max

726
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: or is it the frame right? And you know, so

727
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: watching my son has maybe kind of like appreciate this

728
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: more that talent is. It's really calm, complicated, you know,

729
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: and in a way he doesn't have talent, and that

730
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: he's frustrated because the beginning of the year he's not fast,

731
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: but actually he does because he trains and maybe it's

732
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: his dedication, maybe it's the work eything, but it's also

733
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: his trainability. You know. I saw this there was a

734
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: summer I guess it was the summer of COVID and

735
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: he like, you go run a mile around like a

736
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: ten thirty and then like we do workouts for a

737
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: little bit and it's down to six fifty right when

738
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 2: he's just a little kid. So he's I've learned that

739
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: through watching him. He trained soccer six days a week.

740
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: They play for this crazy club in Queens. It's amazing,

741
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: both of the younger boys. You know, club sends people

742
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: pro it's like it's a it's a real thing. This

743
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 2: winter he's like, you know, Dad, I'm going to join

744
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: the swim team. I was like, really, you don't even

745
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: like swimming. He's like I know, but like I want

746
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 2: to improve my cardiovascular endurance, I can get it in

747
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: before soccer practice and it won't get the same wear

748
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: and tear of like you know, an impact sport. I

749
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: was like, damn, yeah on it.

750
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's on it.

751
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: I just would say, don't overtrain, because I was definitely

752
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: overtrained in high school. Like I did varsity cross country

753
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,719
Speaker 1: into varsity track to then prepare for lacrosse, and I

754
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,719
Speaker 1: was I trained too hard and then I ended up

755
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: getting hurt.

756
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying so hard with him. It's hard, you know,

757
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: and I got hurt. You know, I got I haven't

758
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: been hurt in my adult life because I've learned how

759
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: to balance at my you know, high school life. I's

760
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: heard all the time, right, but.

761
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: It is so true the trainability thing.

762
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: And there's that famous quote that's talent is hard work

763
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: when hard.

764
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: Work fails to work hard. What is that quote?

765
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: I can't remember it, but something along those lines. I mean,

766
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: I even saw it growing up. It's like the kids

767
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: that come out that maybe aren't like the most athletic

768
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: or the most naturally gifted, it really doesn't matter. It

769
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: comes down to your coachability. And your ability to work

770
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: hard to kind of get to that next level. And

771
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: I think that's the really cool thing about running, is

772
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: you can train yourself to be a great runner, as

773
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: long as you just put the hours in and the

774
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: work in, and you're consistent and you push yourself and

775
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: you get into that pain cave. And that leads me

776
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: to your book, The Running Ground, which we talked a

777
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: lot about during our run. But I would love for

778
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: you to just break down what this book is about, yeah,

779
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: and what people can expect in it when they read it,

780
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: because it's it's packed with a lot of information.

781
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, the book is about how running can help us

782
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: understand the hardest things in life. It's not a training book.

783
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: It's not a book just for runners. And in fact,

784
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: some of the best response I've gotten has been from

785
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: people who aren't runners. We're like, this is just a

786
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,719
Speaker 2: book that helps you understand obsession. There are three main stories.

787
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: There's my story of running, which is really about how

788
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: I got faster as I aged, like how did I

789
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: run so fast in my forties and the sort of

790
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: deep psychological reasons. There's the story of my father and

791
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: the way that running helped him hold his life together

792
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,479
Speaker 2: as it was falling apart, and then the way it

793
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: helped me understand and connect with him even as he

794
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: became a great burden on my life. And then there's

795
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: the story of different runners who take you two extremes

796
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: of understanding both, whether it's how running can be a

797
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: form of transcendence, how running can be a way to

798
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: process pain, how running can help you get through addiction,

799
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: how running can help you break barriers. And so these

800
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: aren't runners I found in Wikipedia. They runners with whom

801
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: I've my life has crossed, and so they enter into

802
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: the narrative as I tell my life story when I

803
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: meet them, and then I step back and tell their stories.

804
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,239
Speaker 2: So all those things together make it a book about

805
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: you know, running, pain and understanding.

806
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and all of the people that you know, we

807
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: ran through them during our run. But each person that

808
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 1: you listed out, like the guy that's the fastest marathon

809
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: runner with Parkinson's, you know, it's each person that you

810
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: mentioned has gone through something very traumatic in their life

811
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: like you did with your dad and found running as

812
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: a form of transcendence and getting through this really tough

813
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: emotional thing. So do you mind just telling us the

814
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: story of your dad? And how running kind of helped

815
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 1: you through it.

816
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. So my dad is a really interesting guy. He

817
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: grows up in BayCon, Oklahoma, on a Native American reservation.

818
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: His father had been a missionary who had later risen

819
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: become president of BayCon. But father's a big, gruff, sporty guy.

820
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: My dad is, you know, shy. I wants to listen

821
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: to music. And my dad learns about a school called

822
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: Philips Academy andover great boarding school in New England, and

823
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 2: he applies and gets in, gets a scholarship and leaves

824
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 2: and like his dad is like, no, you don't have

825
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: enough money to pay for the lunch money. And my

826
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: dad is like, I've actually been delivering newspapers on horseback

827
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: and I do, and I'm out. So he goes from

828
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,479
Speaker 2: there where he's a misfit. He goes to Stanford, gets

829
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 2: a scholarship there, and then he's just a star.

830
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 3: Right.

831
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: He brings Nickson to campus, brings Kennedy campus. Kennedy says

832
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 2: his kids be president. Provost writes a letter say, this

833
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: is the best kid we've had on campus since Herbert Hoover. Right,

834
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: Like my dad is rock star. He's photographed by a

835
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: Saturday evening post when he graduates, or no, when he's

836
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: a sophomore, whin's a Rhde scholarship, goes to Oxford, you know,

837
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: comes back, marries my mother. Everything is just going great

838
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: and I'm born, thank goodness, and then his life kind

839
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 2: of unravels. He he doesn't meet his prefer professionalize. It's

840
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: hard when you're told that you're going to be president, Like,

841
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,439
Speaker 2: it's hard to live up to that. Right, he whom

842
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: the gods wish to destroy, they first make promising. And

843
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 2: my dad said that all the time.

844
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's one thing I feel like,

845
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: being told you're going to be president. Whatever I get

846
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: at you're a smart kid, going to Stanford, getting a

847
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: Rhodes scholarship, getting a scholarship to Oxford, those things stand

848
00:34:59,080 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: out to me more.

849
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, And just like everybody expected him to like run

850
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: the world, and he it just wasn't working. And so

851
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: he was having a hard time handling that. And then

852
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: the important, the really important thing is he realizes he's gay.

853
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 2: And you know, this is nineteen seventies, early nineteen eighties.

854
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: It's different from today, Right, you realize you're gay today,

855
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: you come out of the closet and you hang out

856
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: with your gay friends, right. He didn't know how to

857
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 2: deal with it, and so he leaves my mother. He

858
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 2: moved to Washington to write in the AIDS crisis. He's,

859
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: you know, profoundly promiscuous, all the wrong people. He's diagnosed

860
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 2: is having an HIV. It's turns out it's a false positive,

861
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: but he lives with it for a year. He then

862
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 2: this really traumatic thing happens where there's this other guy

863
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: he thinks of as like his twin, this other guy

864
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: who was like photographed by Eisenstaff for his college graduation,

865
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 2: also Rohde scholar, also like everybody thought was going to

866
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: be secretary of State or whatever, also gay. And it

867
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 2: becomes like my father thinks of his twin closest friend.

868
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,439
Speaker 2: And then that guy I just can't handle it, can't

869
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 2: handle ups and down his life, and he kills himself

870
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: in my father's garage. And so my dad, you know,

871
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: from that moment on, it's like, oh my god, like

872
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: what will how can I how can I live as

873
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: a gay man in this closeted world? And so he

874
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 2: just you know, kind of unquorks at that moment. He

875
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: ends up moving to Asia, where he like does some

876
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 2: academic work, but also kind of runs a brothel for men,

877
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: runs out of money during this whole time, though, he

878
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: does run right, and he like teaches me to run

879
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: when I'm five, He runs New York Marathon when right

880
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 2: after the divorce, I go and I cheer him on

881
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 2: just on the downside of the Queensboro Bridge almost breaks

882
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: three hours. You know, we run together. He loves my running.

883
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: We communicate a lot about running through running, and so

884
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: running is like one of the through lines of his

885
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: life and our relationship, and so part of the story

886
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: is my processing the kind of the madness, Like he

887
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: comes back, like he literally comes back, comes to my

888
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 2: apartment in Brooklyn, and like will show up and just

889
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: like he'll show up, walk in under a suitcase to

890
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: just dump it on the floor, and there's like tax statements,

891
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: moisturize or bottles of gin like cigarettes, what Dad, what

892
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 2: are you doing? Like go to your room right then?

893
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: You know, at one point I'm like he's like fix

894
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: my iPad. I'm like, okay, fixing your iPad like rebooted,

895
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 2: fix it up. And he's like ordering prostitutes to come

896
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: as soon as I leave for work, not caring that

897
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: my children will be there. Right, So, like weird dude,

898
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 2: but an amazing guy, and like a wonderful person to

899
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 2: talk to. An interesting guy. So we have this very hard,

900
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 2: complicated relationship, but running is part of what helps it

901
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: to stay at piece. He dies in twenty seventeen, and

902
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 2: then after he dies, you know, that's when I start

903
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: running really fast. He had said that he could only

904
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: run fast after his father had died because the shadow

905
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 2: of his father and like his father's athletic demands had

906
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: made it impossible for him to succeed athletically. That wasn't

907
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 2: the same for me. But it is also the truth

908
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 2: that after he was gone was when I got really fast.

909
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's such a complicated relationship to share with

910
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: your father because it is hard. It's like you have

911
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: this dad that's so successful in all of these things,

912
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: but then also has this really complicated life and is

913
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 1: making really complicated life decisions.

914
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 3: So like, how do you feel like that fueled.

915
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: You in life? Because I know you went on and

916
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: you kind of followed in his footsteps in a way

917
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: by going to Stanford, Right, So what did that do

918
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: to your psyche and your mental and how do you

919
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: feel like running pushed you through.

920
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when I was I've made a lot

921
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: of choices like his, Right, I went there, I went

922
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 2: to Stanford, and I traveled in Ghana, right, which is

923
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: where he had done his PhD. Right, But that was

924
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: all before he had gone before like the king Leer

925
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: like crazy stage. You know, that was when he was

926
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: still just like my dad. And you know, but once

927
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: he started to kind of lose it, like once he

928
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: stopped punctuating his emails and when he kind of spun

929
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: out a control, I definitely thought of running as a

930
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: way to like I worried I was gonna end up

931
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: like him, right, Like I'm not an alcoholic, right, I

932
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: Like I do brush my teeth right, like I fold

933
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: my clothes right, unlike my dad. But I still worried,

934
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 2: like whatever had happened with him, like could that happen

935
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: with me? Like, you know, I've been a promising kid

936
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 2: at Stanford, right, And I think running was a way

937
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: for me to like maintain the discipline and say, you

938
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 2: know what, I'm just gonna I'm gonna keep running. I'm

939
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: going to hold onto this discipline. I'm gonna hold onto

940
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 2: this practice that I think makes you more efficient and

941
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,479
Speaker 2: like helps your life be more disciplined. I'm gonna hold

942
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 2: onto this in a way so that I don't become him.

943
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do think discipline in a real way

944
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: does equal freedom.

945
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 3: Did you see your dad with time lose his discipline

946
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 3: for running and spiral?

947
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: He lost his discipline for everything, Like he just became incapable.

948
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: Like you couldn't have a conversation without him starting to

949
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: talk about sex. You'd be like, Dad, like I don't

950
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: want to hear about this, right, Like we talk about politics? Please?

951
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 2: Can we talk about like who's gonna win the election

952
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: in Thailand? Right? Like you know, what's what's the king

953
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 2: gonna do? If you start the General's like ah, this

954
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: guy I met and you're like, Dad, stop And he

955
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: could just kind of lost, like his mind got He

956
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: didn't sleep, right, he slept like four hours a night.

957
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: He drank all the time. Right, He's like surrounded by

958
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 2: these like weird guys he's met on the internet, you know,

959
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 2: and it's it's sometimes in some ways, like I don't

960
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: remember Apocalypse now at the end where you find Marlon

961
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: Brando and he's in like this just like crazy place,

962
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: Like that was a little bit like what it was

963
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 2: like visiting my father. So he had lost what he

964
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: hadn't lost. He hadn't lost his like charm. He's like

965
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: still so interesting, he's got great taste and already listens

966
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 2: to like beautiful music and understands it all. And but

967
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 2: I it just be like the the kind of part

968
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 2: that you could understand. It just became a narrower and

969
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: narrow portion of of who he was, you know.

970
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: I think the interesting thing about your book is, I

971
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: know when you set out to write it, it was

972
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: about training and running and getting faster as you've gotten older,

973
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: and then you slowly started to weave in this story

974
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: about your father and how it translates.

975
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 3: Into your running.

976
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 1: So at what point did you decide that you wanted

977
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable about this and speak about what happened.

978
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 2: I think it was it was pretty early in the process,

979
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 2: you know. I knew that the story of my father

980
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 2: was deeply intertwined with the story of my running. The

981
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 2: biggest shift was when I decided, like one of the

982
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 2: hardest things was deciding Okay, I'm going to write about

983
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: other people, and then figuring out which other people to

984
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 2: write about, because I didn't think my life's not interesting

985
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: enough for like a memoir.

986
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 3: That's not true he got kidnapped in Africa.

987
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 2: I think that's like two pages. I mean it would

988
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: be like it's like one line in this book. I

989
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: try to make the book very tightly about my I

990
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 2: worked at the New Yorker for six years, an amazing place,

991
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: like incredible.

992
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 3: By the way, I have a subscription to The New Yorker.

993
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: It's been my favorite magazine in publication to collect since

994
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: I was like twelve.

995
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 2: Right, So it's a great place. Right. There's like three

996
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: paragraphs of why I time with the New Yorker. So

997
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: it's definitely not a memoir, right, Like I'm CEO of

998
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: the Atlantic. There's like one sentence about the Atlantic, right,

999
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: Like there's I just don't talk about. There's not a

1000
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: lot about work, and it's really focused on my life

1001
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: running anyway. So the hard part was figuring out which

1002
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 2: people to put in, where to put them, and like

1003
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: who not to put it, right, because I interviewed all

1004
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 2: these people and I've like making lists and I've like

1005
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 2: kind of in my head, I had a structure, but

1006
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: I kept changing and I anyway, so that it was

1007
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: like the hardest part of the book was getting the characters,

1008
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: in choosing the right characters and putting them in the

1009
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 2: right places.

1010
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: What was your process for choosing the right characters.

1011
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 2: I kept the doc and it had like a one

1012
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: hundred people on it. I was like, these people are

1013
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: interesting to me for these reasons, and initially I thought, well,

1014
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 2: maybe I'll just like choose any runner, right, So I

1015
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: was like listening to podcasts and like taking riding on

1016
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: stories of this person's like, wow, that's interesting. They had

1017
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 2: interesting relation to their father. And I was like, no,

1018
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: it's it's ridiculous if you just try to like, that's

1019
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: not what you got it. It's got to be people

1020
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 2: who are in your life, right, Like that's it's gonna

1021
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: be much more real, Like it will feel inauthentic if

1022
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: you're just pulling people off the web, Like it has

1023
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: to be people. And that was an important decision. Maybe

1024
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 2: it was the right one, it was the wrong one,

1025
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: but then I start okay, so then it's very limited, right,

1026
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 2: And then it was like I want people who kind

1027
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: of exemplify the themes of the book, but two in

1028
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: extreme right. So one of the themes I explore is

1029
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: like the self transcendence that I find while running ultras. Great,

1030
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: So now we've got super But Beckjeorde, who you know

1031
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: won the Queen's thirty one hundred mile race nine times, right,

1032
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: that's around the same block in Queen's Right, She's the

1033
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 2: one who you know taught me to kind of release

1034
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 2: myself when I run, So like writing about her allowed

1035
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: me to write about self transcendence in a way that

1036
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: I couldn't do it in my life. Right, Like I

1037
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 2: overcame thyroid cancer ran again, Right, that's like an important

1038
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,919
Speaker 2: part of the story how you process that post traumatic growth. Okay,

1039
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna write Aboutchael Westwall, who you know, fastest

1040
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: run ever with Parkinson's Right's running three sixteen marathon with

1041
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: his arm like swaying over his head like this time

1042
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: ties one arm behind his back with string right, Like

1043
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 2: the guy's unbelievable. Right. You know I like to write

1044
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: about my like spiritual association with the forest. Well, I'm

1045
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: gonna write Aboutobby Gibb, first woman run the Boston Marathon.

1046
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: Who you know she trained for the Boston Marathon. She

1047
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 2: got her parents van, drove across the country and slept

1048
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: in a different park every night and ran like three

1049
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: or four hours, like just by herself with her dog. Right,

1050
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 2: just goes and runs, and there's like I'll go and

1051
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 2: no maps, just like I'm gonna drive west and I'll

1052
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: find someplace beautiful and I'll run every day. Like how

1053
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 2: awesome is that? Like it's the most awesome way anybody's

1054
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: ever trained for anything. And then the organizers are like,

1055
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 2: women can't run marathons. So she goes and runs one

1056
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: hundred miles with horses. You know, why would I have

1057
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: a problem with men if I can run with horses.

1058
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 2: And then they're like, still won't let her in, So

1059
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 2: she hides in the bushes and runs a marathon like,

1060
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: bless this woman, She's incredible. And then she enters the

1061
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: book because my high school graduation. She's there because her

1062
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 2: son is a classmate and friend of mine. I win

1063
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: this big award and my father, blitzed out of his mind,

1064
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: charges the stage and like knocks all the other parents over.

1065
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 2: So it's like a perfect way to bring her into

1066
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 2: the book.

1067
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: What would you say is the common thread that you

1068
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: learned through all of these kind of extreme stories.

1069
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing that connects them all is that

1070
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: running is a way to explain and hard things in life? Right,

1071
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: I was trying to find people where what they overcome,

1072
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 2: what they went through. I wanted people who are like

1073
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 2: really smart, really interesting, fun to talk to. I wanted

1074
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 2: people who had been through things that I hadn't been through.

1075
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: I didn't want someone who's like, you know, became a

1076
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 2: good master's runner, right Like, So what I wanted people

1077
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: who'd like been to been to different a different kind

1078
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 2: of edge than the ones I went to.

1079
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 1: For you, what would you say was the hardest part

1080
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 1: of the book to write? Like, is there a passage

1081
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: in the book that you read and it will still

1082
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: make you choke up or bring you to the tears?

1083
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 3: Like, what was the hardest thing for you to write about?

1084
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 2: Hardest thing was the title? One hundred percent here actually

1085
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 2: give me the copy. So the title for a long

1086
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: time was run for Your Life, which I hate, but

1087
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: I like, I couldn't, I couldn't beat it. It was

1088
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 2: what I called the proposal manuscript. It's like, okay, but

1089
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 2: like every single person, every single runner who's written a

1090
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: memoir could call it run for your life, right like

1091
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 2: literally or running for your life like one hundred percent

1092
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: of the books. And so but I couldn't. I was like, like,

1093
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: I'm calling it time to run, which is like running

1094
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 2: an efficiency, and like it's in order. It was like

1095
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: stupid too. And then uh, this book took five years,

1096
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 2: and like I was called run for your Life for

1097
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 2: like four and a half years. In fact, if you

1098
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 2: go to Amazon, I think it's still like the u

1099
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: URL is like run for your life, because when the

1100
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 2: publisher submitted it, that's what it was. And then one

1101
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: day I was up in the Catskills where we have

1102
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 2: a place, and I was looking at this print that

1103
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 2: from Maximus of Tire that ben Sean had stylized, and

1104
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 2: my dad had given it to pay off alone. And

1105
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: it's beautiful and it's this is what it reads. It says, uh,

1106
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 2: God himself, the father and fashioner of all that is

1107
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 2: older than the sun or the sky, greater than time

1108
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 2: and eternity, and all the flow of being is unnameable

1109
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 2: by any lawgiver, an utter le by any voice, not

1110
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 2: to be seen by any eye. But we, being unable

1111
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 2: to apprehend his essence, use the help of sounds and names,

1112
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 2: and pictures of beaten gold and ivory and silver, of

1113
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 2: plants and rivers, mountain peaks, and torrents, yearning for the

1114
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 2: knowledge of Him, and in our weakness, aiming all that

1115
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: is beautiful in this world after his nature, just as

1116
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: happens to earthly lovers. To them, the most beautiful site

1117
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: will be the actual lineaments of the beloved. But for

1118
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: rememberance sakes, they'll be happy in the sight of a liar,

1119
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: a little spear, a chair perhaps, or a running ground,

1120
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: or anything in the world that wakens the memory of

1121
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 2: the beloved. It ends, let them know, let them love,

1122
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: let them remember. And I had looked at it, and

1123
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 2: I had never noticed the phrase a running ground, right

1124
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: like a Greek track, and I realized, wow, like finding God,

1125
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 2: finding love, finding meaning in a Greek track like boom,

1126
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: there's the title. And so that's how I came up

1127
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 2: with that. But if I hadn't had that day up

1128
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 2: in the Catskills, I don't know. I guess it would

1129
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: be called Run for Your Life, and I would just

1130
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: be like embarrassed.

1131
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: I do still like the title run for your Life,

1132
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 3: but the running ground is different.

1133
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 2: Run a marketing test, and you put run for your

1134
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:51,879
Speaker 2: Life in the running ground like run for your Life

1135
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: will sell more copies right like it'll probably go off

1136
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 2: the shelf, like, Oh cool, run for your life. Like,

1137
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 2: but it wasn't me, you know, the running Ground that's

1138
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 2: me right, Like that is like and it also like,

1139
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: that's what this book is about. It is exactly about

1140
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: what like Maximus writes in that passage.

1141
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 3: Also, we were joking before about how your outfit is

1142
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 3: perfectly coordinated and this, Oh yeah, you are very coordinated

1143
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 3: with your.

1144
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: Book, right. Well, only because the part of that is

1145
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 2: the accidental fact that I'm wearing yellow shorts and the

1146
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 2: fact that this shirt though is of course cordecuse it's

1147
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 2: a special shirt that Nike made about the book.

1148
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about tell me how this collaboration with

1149
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: Nike came to be, because it's very cool.

1150
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 2: It's very cool. Right, So, if you're just listening to

1151
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: the podcast, I'm wearing a shirt has Running Ground on

1152
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: the front, and then on the back it has a quote,

1153
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: the long quote about pain and understanding pain that comes

1154
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 2: from the book. So Nike. When I was training to

1155
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 2: run that two twenty nine, I trained with some coaches

1156
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: from Nike, Steve Finley, Brett Kirby, Joe Holder, and so

1157
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 2: I had like developed a relationship and I wore the

1158
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: vapor Fly twos. I wore the vapor Fly ones in

1159
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 2: my first two thirty eight, two thirty four, and then

1160
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: vapor Fly twos in my two twenty nine. And so

1161
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: I had a relationship with Nike and then when I

1162
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: finished the book, I sent it to him. I was

1163
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 2: like hey, and they're like, wow, this this sort of

1164
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 2: resonates with the brand, like, let's do a thing before

1165
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: the New York Marathon. I was like, great, And so

1166
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 2: I did an event with your holder. He interviewed me

1167
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: about He's such a smart guy. He interviewed me about

1168
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,959
Speaker 2: the book. And then Nike made these cool T shirts

1169
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 2: and all these folks like ran across the Brooklyn Bridge

1170
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: and running ground t shirts and my kids love it

1171
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 2: and I think they're cool too.

1172
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they are really cool.

1173
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: And what an honor to, you know, have Nike say wow,

1174
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,240
Speaker 1: we want to be a part of your story.

1175
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 3: And in some sort of way.

1176
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 2: It's great. It's great. You know, when I was young,

1177
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: they've like the big book was born to run right

1178
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 2: of course. Read when I was reading this and like,

1179
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 2: awesome book, like incredible storytelling, like and I've modeled bedtime

1180
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: stories for my children off the characters in it, But

1181
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: the underlying thesis of Born to Run was that running

1182
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: shoes don't work right, and like we should run barefoot

1183
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 2: because these big, clunky shoes like make you not associate

1184
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: with the ground. And that was maybe kind of a

1185
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 2: little bit true. But then Nike figured out, like, actually,

1186
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: if you put a spoon in it, use airplane insulation

1187
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:00,879
Speaker 2: in the back of it, and you make it super

1188
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 2: light and you improve your ankle stability, people run a

1189
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: lot faster than they get hurt a lot less. And

1190
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 2: now everybody's doing that, and so they like their innovation

1191
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 2: lab predicting the period when I was writing this book

1192
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 2: just crushed it.

1193
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it is impressive.

1194
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: But I do have to say I like this sub

1195
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 1: headline of your book, which is, you know, it says

1196
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: a father, a son and the simplest of sports.

1197
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and running is and I'm barefoot in that and

1198
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:24,720
Speaker 3: you're barefoot in the photo.

1199
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I love that you called that out because

1200
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: running really is the simplest of sports. And I feel

1201
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: like the reason why I got into running at such

1202
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: a young age is because, you know, at fourteen years old,

1203
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: I wasn't paying to go to a gym. My parents

1204
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: were not paying for a gym membership. If I wanted

1205
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: to go to the gym, they would have said, use

1206
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: your school gym. You go to a public school, they

1207
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 1: have a gym. It's available to you, you know. Yeah,

1208
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: but I lived in a sidewalk community. Not that you

1209
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: have to live in a sidewalk community to go for runs.

1210
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you ran to the airport the other day and.

1211
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 3: You see which I'm sure was along some highways.

1212
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: But it really is this thing that you can do anywhere,

1213
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: anytime with very little star fee or money.

1214
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 2: It's the best thing about it, right, And it's why

1215
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 2: there's like, you know, why is it that the Ethiopians,

1216
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: the Canyons and the air Treans are so great at

1217
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 2: running and they're not so great at lacrosse? Right, Like,

1218
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 2: well they're you're getting lacrosse stick is a little bit harder, right,

1219
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: and the requires a field, and you know, you know

1220
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: it's it is the most equitable of sports.

1221
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 3: You don't have to run races to be a runner.

1222
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 2: You don't have to know. Everybody can be a runner,

1223
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: and you can do it anytime you want, in anywhere

1224
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 2: you want, right, And that's like creates the great psychological

1225
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: burden because if you succeed, it's on you. If you fail,

1226
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 2: it's on you. But you can go out you within.

1227
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 2: My favorite thing about running is you run, like on

1228
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 2: the same course in the same day as Eliot kip Choke,

1229
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 2: Like you run the New York Marathon, and you're like

1230
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: you're actually racing him. Like you don't get to play

1231
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 2: tennis against Roger Federer, right, but you do get to

1232
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 2: race against Elia kip Choke. It's partly why I hate

1233
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 2: that the New York road runners start the elite man

1234
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 2: now five minutes ahead of the field. I think it's

1235
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 2: like unethical. That's a side note.

1236
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: Well, I mean if you're running a two twenty nine marathon,

1237
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 1: I mean, Elliott ran a two fourteen this year, I

1238
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: think it's like you're not coming in that far after them,

1239
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: which is the pretty wild thing. I mean, ten minutes

1240
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 1: in running is a long time.

1241
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: It's a lot Like, yeah, if people are like two

1242
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 2: twenty nine, you could almost win the marathon, Like you

1243
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 2: know what, you know, how long I could stay with

1244
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 2: those winners? Maybe eight hundred meters? Right, if I went

1245
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 2: all out, I could stay with the guys for eight

1246
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 2: hundred meters, right, it's crazy how fast they go. It is.

1247
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 3: It's it's a nuts. I actually got to interview Elliott

1248
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:29,439
Speaker 3: this year.

1249
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 2: He's before it's like at a whole different like psychological level, right,

1250
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 2: Like he's so calm, it's crazy. Yeah.

1251
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: I do feel like most runners that I meet though, that,

1252
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: like long distance runners do, you have a very calm

1253
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 1: presence to them. And I think it's because our heart

1254
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: rates are so low because we run so much.

1255
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: Well, and you have to, like because if you are

1256
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 2: like spiky and like you're like you can't race right,

1257
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: you have to, like you have to learn how to

1258
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: pace yourself right. It's like a habit of mind that

1259
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 2: comes from running that is spreads to the rest of

1260
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 2: your life. Yeah.

1261
00:52:58,440 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 3: No, I got really lucky.

1262
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: The story that interview was I was doing a video

1263
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: with Nana Lynch, who's one of the chairs of York Roadrunners,

1264
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: and we were in the media center where I guess,

1265
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: like all the elite runners go for press and whatever

1266
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 1: before the marathon and then after the race. And I

1267
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: was in there with her and we passed Elliott who

1268
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: was kind of sitting down with his team, and she goes, Kate,

1269
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you three minutes go make something happen.

1270
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: I went over to him and I was I was scramma.

1271
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: I didn't know it was the first time he had

1272
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: ran the New York City Marathon. I had done no

1273
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: prior research on really him or history. I mean, I

1274
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: knew who he was obviously through just the running world,

1275
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: but it wasn't like I knew specifics. And I went

1276
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: up there and I completely wung the interview and it

1277
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: ended up being great. I think it got like maybe

1278
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: five hundred thousand views on one platform, three hundred on another.

1279
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: Elliott went so viral this marathon because it was such

1280
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: a big, big deal for him, right he completed. Yeah,

1281
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: but it was it was really lucky, and it was

1282
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: it was pretty special.

1283
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,879
Speaker 3: But yeah, he's a he's a yeah.

1284
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: I like that in your book you didn't focus too

1285
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: much on your job because it is so cool that

1286
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: running for you is this whole other life that you

1287
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: live outside of being the CEO of the Atlantic and

1288
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: having had this really impressive career. But I'm curious for you,

1289
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: how do you feel like running and being so disciplined

1290
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: in the sport has translated into your profession.

1291
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 2: Well, I think there are a couple of ways, right.

1292
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 2: I do think that discipline is cumulative. And so if

1293
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 2: you do a hard thing in the morning, you go

1294
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,879
Speaker 2: and you run right, and you you know, you run

1295
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 2: when it's cold, like, you will be more disciplined through

1296
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 2: the rest of the day. Right. That act of discipline

1297
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 2: means that you will have like a store of discipline

1298
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,399
Speaker 2: that you can use throughout the day and it will

1299
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 2: set you up for like at the end of the

1300
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 2: day if you had a hard day, well, at least

1301
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 2: you ran right, and you'll sort of feel better and

1302
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 2: then you'll reset and you'll go back to it tomorrow.

1303
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 2: There are other like specific habits of mind. We're just

1304
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 2: talking about pacing, right, Like why do wire runners calm? Right, Well,

1305
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 2: you have to learn how to pace yourself, right, if

1306
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 2: you're an ultra long distance runner. You can't have like

1307
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 2: crazy mood swings or you can, but it's not helpful.

1308
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 2: And that's very helpful in work, Right, the discipline, like

1309
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 2: the the kind of you know, ability to sort of

1310
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 2: sustain a steady pace for two hours, Like that's actually

1311
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 2: pretty important for working. Right. A lot of times you

1312
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 2: have to like stay focused for two hours, right, You

1313
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 2: have to like stay forwarded for six hours, stay focused

1314
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 2: for fourteen hours. Right when you're doing a hard job, right,

1315
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 2: and like, I'm going to keep doing this thing until

1316
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 2: it is done, you know the whole. Like to me,

1317
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 2: the most important lesson is the most important lesson in life,

1318
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 2: which is and I always trying to tell this to

1319
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 2: my kids, like I got too much homework, I'm never

1320
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 2: gonna be able to get it done. Well, you know

1321
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 2: what you should do is start right, And like you

1322
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 2: learn that in your job, you learn that in a

1323
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 2: hard job. You learn that in running, Like if you

1324
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 2: oh my god, it's too cold to run, Oh my god,

1325
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 2: like my foot kind of hurts, Oh my god. I

1326
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 2: like maybe I et too much, maybe too little. Right,

1327
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 2: If you start to worry about that stuff, you're never

1328
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 2: going to get the run in right. You just actually

1329
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,240
Speaker 2: have to you just, you know, and if you complain

1330
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 2: about it like well I'm tired, I heard, or my god,

1331
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 2: my heart rate's too high, my whoop score is too low,

1332
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 2: Like you just have to go do it right. And

1333
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 2: the same thing in your job, right, if you're you're

1334
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 2: trying to wait for conditions to be perfect, or you're

1335
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 2: trying to wait for things to be exactly right, or

1336
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 2: I'm not going to start working on this project just

1337
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 2: yet because I'm better after lunch, right, Like come on,

1338
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 2: like you're never gonna get it done, you know, And

1339
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 2: so you kind of learn similar sort of stoic discipline

1340
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 2: of like I'm just going to go ahead and I'm

1341
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 2: going to do this, I'm going to identify it, and

1342
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 2: then you have to learn to like go at an

1343
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 2: uncomfortable speed. Right if you're like I'm going to run,

1344
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 2: but I'm just gonna I'm just gonna run thirty minutes

1345
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: slower than I should. It's all okay, it's all cool, right, Okay, fine,

1346
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 2: but you know, if you want to excel, you have

1347
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 2: to actually like make yourself hurt. And same thing in business, right,

1348
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 2: if you want to like you want to hit your target,

1349
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 2: you know, you have to try to set the goal

1350
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 2: a little high. You have to like work it's a

1351
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 2: little bit uncomfortable, and you know, you don't want to

1352
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 2: drive yourself into the ground, just like in running you

1353
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 2: want to injure yourself. But it's kind of similar habits.

1354
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 2: So I think there's a lot of overlap between business

1355
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 2: success and running success.

1356
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, one of.

1357
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: The things Elliott said to me when it came I

1358
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: think I him a question about what is your advice

1359
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: to first time runners or first time marathon runners or

1360
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: people that want to get into running, and he said,

1361
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: get up, get your gear and or on.

1362
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great. I mean, that's it right like, and

1363
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 2: I say to my kids, you know, like, Okay, why

1364
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 2: don't you just start right And there's a scene in

1365
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 2: the book where you know, I was I didn't have

1366
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 2: a lot of confidence as a writer, and I was

1367
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 2: working at the New Yorker and Boston marathon bombings happened

1368
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, and David Remnick walks into my office to

1369
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 2: the editor New Yorker and he's like, Nick, you're gonna

1370
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 2: write about this. I was like no, No. I would

1371
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 2: say no because I kind of scared. I was like, no,

1372
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 2: I gotta edit this. I got it. He's like, no, No,

1373
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 2: you're going to write about this. I was like, no,

1374
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 2: I have to like call Murakami and I got, like

1375
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 2: Georgia Packer my file and he's like, Nick, this is

1376
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,479
Speaker 2: what's going to happen. I'm going to close this door.

1377
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: You're gonna put down your phone and you're going to

1378
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: start to write the essay in an hour. I'm going

1379
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 2: to open the door and you're going to hand me

1380
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 2: the essay. He closes the door and walks away, right,

1381
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 2: and like, okay, guess I'm going to start right now, right.

1382
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 2: And it's a great skill in running, and it's a

1383
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 2: great skill in journalism. Yeah.

1384
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 1: And when you said you didn't have a lot of

1385
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: confidence in writing, you had graduated from Stanford and you

1386
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: were I mean, I know you did a little bit

1387
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: of hustling on the subway, you were a musician or

1388
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: street street musician, but you were a journalist, right, So

1389
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: by twenty thirteen, what was it that you weren't confident

1390
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: about with your writing?

1391
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I'd written a book. The book had gotten

1392
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 2: great reviews. I wrote book book the Cold War, I

1393
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 2: written all cards articles. But I worked at the New Yorker,

1394
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 2: right like you're there, like I don't know, you're running

1395
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 2: John McPhee right, like you're the best writers in the world, right,

1396
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 2: And I just didn't think I was at that level.

1397
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 2: I didn't think I could write at that level. And

1398
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 2: I knew I could edit at that level. I knew

1399
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 2: I could manage people at that level. I knew I

1400
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 2: could like manage a team, and I knew I could

1401
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:47,880
Speaker 2: set strategy at that level. I just didn't think I

1402
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 2: could write at that level. But I worked really hard

1403
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 2: at and got better and I became much more confident

1404
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 2: at it.

1405
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. It is interesting how different editing is

1406
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 3: than writing.

1407
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: It's kind of like with you know, our video now

1408
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 1: it's I would even say, I'm like, I'm not as

1409
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:03,919
Speaker 1: good as a video editor as some of these video

1410
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: editors that work on our team are, but I'm good

1411
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:07,919
Speaker 1: at editing and providing edits.

1412
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 3: But at the same time, it's like, but I should

1413
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 3: be just as good of a video editor.

1414
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 2: And there different skills right, right, And part of life

1415
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 2: is like identifying where in an organization you really have

1416
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 2: those skills, Like Okay, they're twelve things and I'm the

1417
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: seventh best, the fourth best, the third best, but oh

1418
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 2: this thing, I'm the best, so I'm going to focus

1419
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 2: on that, or like this is where it's most useful.

1420
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 2: But also part of life is identifying like Okay, well,

1421
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,439
Speaker 2: actually this is the thing I'm weakend and I should

1422
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 2: get stronger at right. Like again, this comes with my

1423
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 2: kids in soccer, where it's like, okay, you know what

1424
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 2: is the thing your best at, your best at, like

1425
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: long shots? Okay, great, so we could do some long shots.

1426
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 2: What is the thing you're worst at, well, your works

1427
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 2: worst at, like leftot of dribbling. Well, really that's what

1428
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 2: we should work at when nobody's looking right. And so

1429
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 2: part of life is identifying, like when you lean into

1430
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 2: your strengths and when you like work on your weaknesses.

1431
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 1: My dad always when we were growing up, had us

1432
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: live by this like one touch method, which was basically like,

1433
00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: you know, not procrastinating the littlest thing and then the

1434
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 1: biggest things. It's kind of like if you get an

1435
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: email or a text, respond to it right away, you know.

1436
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: Or if it's like, you know, a homework assignment that

1437
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 1: you don't want to do, tackle that one first.

1438
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 2: That's great advice.

1439
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I also think what's really interesting, and we've

1440
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 1: had a lot of CEOs on the show, and the

1441
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: commonality that they've all talked about is that in order

1442
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 1: to be a CEO of an organization, you have to

1443
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: understand all the pieces.

1444
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,439
Speaker 2: Of the pie, definitely, and that was when I came

1445
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 2: into my role as CEO of The Atlantic. I had

1446
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 2: a much better understanding of the journalism side than like

1447
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 2: any other media CEO, because I've been a journalist, right

1448
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 2: and I've been an editor, but I had a weaker

1449
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 2: understanding of the advertising side, right, and exactly how you

1450
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 2: know what is it that like really makes a renewal? Right? Okay,

1451
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 2: so now how do you get your win rate up?

1452
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 2: Like which of these variables matter the most? Which are

1453
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: the ones that we can influence? And so I had

1454
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 2: to like learn some things that most other CEOs didn't

1455
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 2: and not learn other things that other CEOs did.

1456
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: What would you say are the things that you look

1457
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: for in hires at the Atlantic?

1458
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 2: I look for I mean right now, I really look

1459
01:00:54,840 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 2: for like velocity, work ethic, you know, getting people who

1460
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 2: want to come into the office and want to like

1461
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 2: have ambition and have a little bit of an edge.

1462
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: You know, that's super important. You know, it's surviving in journalism.

1463
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,919
Speaker 2: Is people sometimes want to come to the Atlantic because

1464
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 2: we're doing really well and it's a great place, it's

1465
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 2: an awesome magazine, and they read their whole life and

1466
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 2: like they know we have like good health care and

1467
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: they come in and they can kind of shell and

1468
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 2: we're cooked if we hire too many people like that, right,

1469
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 2: because AI is about to turn our business upside down

1470
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 2: and like shake us all out, and you know, we

1471
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 2: need people who are super aggressive and understanding what AI

1472
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 2: is doing and how it's changing, and want to experiment

1473
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 2: and want to work hard. So that's what I'm looking for.

1474
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say in media and in journalism and

1475
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: in any job, it is not the time to coast.

1476
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 2: That's the one of the things about we have this

1477
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 2: Atlantic used to lose money and now it makes money

1478
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 2: and lots of stories written about our turnaround. It's great.

1479
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 2: You know, we're doing really well other journals and places,

1480
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 2: and so there's a little bit of a we're owned by,

1481
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 2: you know, a very wealthy woman learning power jobs there

1482
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 2: can be complacency, and as soon as we get complacent,

1483
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 2: that's when the bad stuff starts to happen. And so

1484
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 2: I'm trying really hard to make sure that we only

1485
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 2: hire people who have an edge and like really want

1486
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 2: to work and really want to succeed.

1487
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: And competitors, you know, like people that are really going

1488
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: after it. And I feel like that translates to all jobs,

1489
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: you know, it really is. I feel like the job

1490
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 1: market is pretty tough right now, especially for new grads.

1491
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 3: You really have to be curious and go after an

1492
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 3: industry that gives you energy and yeah, have an edge.

1493
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what we're looking for.

1494
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 3: I agree with that advice.

1495
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 1: You know, final questions as we sort of wrap up here,

1496
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 1: But you know, I know you're very involved with AI

1497
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 1: and I've saw it. You've done some podcasts talking about A.

1498
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: Doing an event right before I came here.

1499
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:50,919
Speaker 3: An event right before you came here to Pep learning AI.

1500
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: Yes, So how is and how are you foreseeing AI shifting?

1501
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 3: You know, even the public publication like the Atlantic, Well, so.

1502
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 2: In lots of ways. So you know, the most important

1503
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:03,160
Speaker 2: is that it's going to change the structure of the Internet,

1504
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 2: and so it'll change the way people find the Atlantic, right.

1505
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 2: And so we're already seeing this, Like people used to

1506
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 2: go to Google and go to the Atlantic. Now you

1507
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 2: just go to Google and you get sucked into Gemini, right,

1508
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 2: And so we're finding far fewer people coming that way.

1509
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 2: Soon people will be sending out agents. Right, instead of

1510
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 2: like Kate going to read the web, you'll be like

1511
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 2: Kate's agent, go summarize the web, bring me back nuggets.

1512
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 2: So we're going to figure out how to make a

1513
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 2: business model in that world, So that's really important. We

1514
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 2: have to figure out how it will change our internal processes,

1515
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 2: Like what does it do for reporters?

1516
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 3: Right?

1517
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 2: I used AI to help edit my book? Right, Never

1518
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 2: use it to write it, right, but help edit and

1519
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 2: sort through things. But how will reporters use it? How

1520
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 2: will we use it on the business side?

1521
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: Right?

1522
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 2: We just moved our customer service platform's now using AI

1523
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 2: to handle a subset of queries, right, what can we

1524
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 2: expand that subset? Can we do more? Should we do less?

1525
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 2: And then there's the relationship with the AI companies, right, Like, Okay,

1526
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 2: these companies all still our data in the middle, and

1527
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 2: I violated our terms of service and build competitive products, right,

1528
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 2: So we are actively suing some of them. We are

1529
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 2: partnering with others figuring out their relationship with yet others.

1530
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 2: You know, our ideal world is we partner with, give

1531
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 2: our data to and support ones that are trying to

1532
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 2: build business models that help creators and that help journalists.

1533
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 2: And we're fighting the ones who just steal. And you know,

1534
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 2: we're trying to figure out that dynamic as well. So

1535
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 2: they're all those different axes on which are a strategy exists.

1536
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 1: What are some of the providers that steal? Like are

1537
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: they mainstream ones that we use?

1538
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, of course. I mean like every AI company, right,

1539
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 2: they went and they you know, they trained on the

1540
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,959
Speaker 2: entire internet to build like every single of the AI

1541
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,959
Speaker 2: companies without any compensation, right.

1542
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 3: Chat, GPT, Gemini of course, and.

1543
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 2: Right now Chat GABT has come back and they've made

1544
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 2: licensing deals with us, like they have said, you know,

1545
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 2: we'll make it, and so we're now we're very comfortable

1546
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 2: with open ai. But you know, every single one of

1547
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 2: these AI companies trained on data to which they did

1548
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 2: not have rights and then built a product that is

1549
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 2: disadvantaging some of the people who had created that data.

1550
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 2: Their claim is that it's fair use. You know where

1551
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 2: we just we went. It's like going into a library

1552
01:04:57,480 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 2: reading every book in the library in five seconds, right,

1553
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 2: Like that's fine, Like what's wrong with that? Our product's

1554
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 2: not competitive? Our position is it's not quite like doing that, right,

1555
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 2: You aren't like a humanity library. You're doing something extremely different,

1556
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 2: and you are building a product that is displacing and

1557
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 2: competing with us, which means that it's not actually fair use.

1558
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 2: So the courts are going to settle that question. But

1559
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 2: you can't if there's a world where it's not a

1560
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 2: good world for It's not a good world for Google

1561
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 2: and Gemini if they drive all the publishers out of

1562
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 2: business because we create a lot of data that is

1563
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 2: useful to their customers, and so it's in their interest, right.

1564
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 2: The old Google model worked pretty well. We create a

1565
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 2: lot of data, they drive people to it. People go

1566
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 2: to Google, they see ads. Google makes money. They come

1567
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 2: to our site, they see our stories, we make money.

1568
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 2: We feed our stuff into Google. It's great. If we

1569
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 2: can figure out something like that where everybody benefits, that's great.

1570
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 2: But if it's a world where you just go and

1571
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 2: you ask a question, Google answers it, and you never

1572
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 2: leave and you ever never go to the place that

1573
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 2: provided the information that allowed for the answer, then you've

1574
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 2: killed off all the crops that the animal eats. And

1575
01:05:59,040 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 2: that's not great.

1576
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so true.

1577
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 1: And I also feel like, you know, as somebody that

1578
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 1: is an interviewer and is constantly researching people, I probably

1579
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 1: interview like eight people every week. I feel like when

1580
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 1: I use chat sheept or Jebini too much, they sometimes

1581
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 1: get things wrong totally.

1582
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 2: I mean, they're amazing. They hallucinate, they make things up.

1583
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 2: They've been trained to please you, so they if they

1584
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 2: have been turned into bsirs, it's just a weird thing

1585
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 2: about them.

1586
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 3: So it is so true.

1587
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 1: Like I'm always asking, like if I'm using it for research,

1588
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 1: I'll be like fact check, like give me the sources.

1589
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 3: So it is so true.

1590
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 1: It's like you can't cut off the sources and then

1591
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 1: expect these platforms to be totally accurate. So you're so

1592
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: gladly they do have to play together, and I like

1593
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: that insight. Well, the Running Ground. I am so excited

1594
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 1: to dig into this book.

1595
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 2: So happy you got it there.

1596
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm so happy for you. I'm also excited to

1597
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: have it in our bookshelf. I love having books of

1598
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:47,720
Speaker 1: people that we've had.

1599
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 2: Oh, pull me next to David Goggins, my son, I'll

1600
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 2: be so happy.

1601
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:52,959
Speaker 3: I need to have David Goggins.

1602
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:53,919
Speaker 2: On the show. My son told me that the only

1603
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 2: person who could make the book cool was if David

1604
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 2: Goggins blurbed it. But I know how to reach him.

1605
01:06:57,480 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 2: I got Killian Jornee to blurn it. So I've got

1606
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 2: like Killian join Anna Wintor. I don't think they've ever

1607
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 2: both blurbed the same book, which is pretty funny. Anna

1608
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 2: Winter a runner, No, but she.

1609
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 1: Loved the book, Okay, we Anna Wintur wrote, it would

1610
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 1: seem disingenuous to say that Nicholas Thompson's mesmerizing and moving

1611
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 1: The Running Ground isn't really about running, but while running,

1612
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 1: from its practical agonies and ecstasies to its philosophical and

1613
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: deeply personal undercurrents, suffuses this book, and something Thompson writes

1614
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 1: early on, holds the key to its deeper revelations. Running

1615
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 1: is the simplest of sports, but if we look closely,

1616
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 1: it can teach us about the hardest things in life.

1617
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 1: It's those hard things that make this an endlessly surprising,

1618
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: revelatory and heart heart trending read.

1619
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 2: A nice quote from Anna Winter, right, Yeah, that's pretty iconic.

1620
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:44,000
Speaker 2: Yeah that's awesome. Yeah.

1621
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 3: I guess when you're the CEO of the Atlantic, you

1622
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 3: know all these.

1623
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 2: Anna's great, Ana's amazing. Well, I didn't know Killian I sent.

1624
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 2: I just wrote to him and said, hey, Killian, and

1625
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 2: he read it before running Western States and it's like

1626
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:56,920
Speaker 2: used in his taper. But I did not know. I

1627
01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 2: could not reach David Goggins to get a blurb.

1628
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 3: So I feel like Oz Perlms ran with David before.

1629
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 2: Well, next book, I'll have to write to Guggins.

1630
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I want to ask just like one

1631
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 1: final thing, So for people that read The Running Ground,

1632
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 1: what is the key thing that you want them to

1633
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: take away from your journey and the journeys of the

1634
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 1: people in.

1635
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 2: This I want them to finish the book and go running.

1636
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 3: There we go. We want to get that post run high,

1637
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 3: going and flowing.

1638
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I've had so many people write to

1639
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 2: me and say, I haven't run any years. I read

1640
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 2: your book, I started running. Two reactions that are pretty common.

1641
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 2: One haven't run a year, started running and two my

1642
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 2: spouse is a runner. I never understood them. I read

1643
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 2: this book now it makes sense, and that those reactions

1644
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 2: I keep getting every day. It's awesome.

1645
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the most beautiful thing when you can inspire

1646
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: other people to get their body moveing, especially when something

1647
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 1: helped you so much with like running, and then you

1648
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 1: inspire other people to do it to do it, it's

1649
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: really special.

1650
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 3: And Nicholas, thank you so much for.

1651
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 2: Thank you to be here. I was delighted to be

1652
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 2: asked so much fun to talk with you. It's so

1653
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 2: much fun to run with you.

1654
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 3: Thank you. I had a great time.