1 00:00:15,236 --> 00:00:24,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin. What's up? I'm even Max Kendy, host of b 2 00:00:24,916 --> 00:00:29,076 Speaker 1: Anti Racist, the new podcast from iHeartMedia and Pushkin Industries. 3 00:00:29,676 --> 00:00:32,876 Speaker 1: We've got an incredible season coming up. Each week, I'll 4 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:36,116 Speaker 1: be joined by a special guest to discuss how different 5 00:00:36,156 --> 00:00:40,676 Speaker 1: policies and platforms can dismantle racism. You hear from folks 6 00:00:40,676 --> 00:00:45,036 Speaker 1: in the world of politics, academia, journalism, entertainment, and beyond 7 00:00:45,596 --> 00:00:49,236 Speaker 1: on how we can create positive change around issues like 8 00:00:49,356 --> 00:00:53,716 Speaker 1: voting rights, immigration, and the criminal justice system. We'll discuss 9 00:00:53,756 --> 00:00:56,836 Speaker 1: the strategies and narratives we can all rally around to 10 00:00:56,956 --> 00:01:00,476 Speaker 1: build a just and equitable world, and how we can 11 00:01:00,516 --> 00:01:04,036 Speaker 1: all play a part in creating one. To help kick 12 00:01:04,076 --> 00:01:06,636 Speaker 1: things off, I hopped on a call with Pushkin's co 13 00:01:06,796 --> 00:01:10,916 Speaker 1: founder and commander in chief, Malcolm Well. We talked about 14 00:01:10,916 --> 00:01:14,796 Speaker 1: our own experiences with racism, how to reach people, and 15 00:01:14,916 --> 00:01:18,236 Speaker 1: why the world needs this podcast now more than ever. 16 00:01:19,716 --> 00:01:23,356 Speaker 1: Stick around after our conversation for a preview what's coming 17 00:01:23,396 --> 00:01:34,036 Speaker 1: up this season? There's the man? Hey, how are you? 18 00:01:34,436 --> 00:01:37,516 Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm good. First of all, just welcome to 19 00:01:37,556 --> 00:01:42,436 Speaker 1: the family. Bushkin's a family. Yes, I'm excited. Malcolm, You've 20 00:01:42,556 --> 00:01:46,996 Speaker 1: put together an incredible group of thinkers. It's still obviously 21 00:01:47,076 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 1: a challenge for me thinking about how to translate into 22 00:01:51,316 --> 00:01:53,996 Speaker 1: this new medium, but you're a pro now and I'm 23 00:01:53,996 --> 00:01:56,636 Speaker 1: sure you could probably tell me better than any I 24 00:01:56,676 --> 00:01:59,716 Speaker 1: think you're going to enjoy it. It's really fun. You 25 00:01:59,756 --> 00:02:01,316 Speaker 1: and I both write books. You write a book and 26 00:02:01,356 --> 00:02:06,116 Speaker 1: then like years pass and it appears. In this business, 27 00:02:06,396 --> 00:02:08,636 Speaker 1: you do something, it could be out the next day, 28 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:11,596 Speaker 1: it could be at the same day. Just that's so fantastic, 29 00:02:11,676 --> 00:02:14,796 Speaker 1: that kind of fast feedback loop, and it's just a 30 00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:17,276 Speaker 1: different way to reach people. What was your thinking and 31 00:02:17,396 --> 00:02:19,716 Speaker 1: wanting to do a podcast? I think precisely what you 32 00:02:19,836 --> 00:02:23,956 Speaker 1: just stated in terms of a different way of reaching people. 33 00:02:24,196 --> 00:02:26,996 Speaker 1: And I know that there are certainly are many people 34 00:02:26,996 --> 00:02:30,436 Speaker 1: who still pursue books to really get them to think 35 00:02:30,476 --> 00:02:33,716 Speaker 1: differently or understand the world. But I see more and 36 00:02:33,756 --> 00:02:36,876 Speaker 1: more people turning to podcasts to do the same thing, 37 00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:40,676 Speaker 1: and so recognizing that, I decided to jump on the 38 00:02:40,716 --> 00:02:44,556 Speaker 1: deep end and see what it's even though Auto Autista, Yeah, 39 00:02:44,956 --> 00:02:48,076 Speaker 1: who do you want to reach? That's the question I 40 00:02:48,076 --> 00:02:53,036 Speaker 1: think about a lot. My best answer is I want 41 00:02:53,076 --> 00:02:57,636 Speaker 1: to reach people who are open minded, open minded about 42 00:02:57,916 --> 00:03:04,556 Speaker 1: really understanding how race and racism operate. You present a 43 00:03:04,636 --> 00:03:09,356 Speaker 1: persuasive argument, you present evidence. They're willing to reflect on 44 00:03:09,436 --> 00:03:14,956 Speaker 1: that information and potentially reflect on their own views. Whether 45 00:03:14,996 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 1: they exist in this polarized environment in which we're extremely 46 00:03:20,036 --> 00:03:23,356 Speaker 1: defensive is not something I know. But that's really the 47 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:25,356 Speaker 1: guidepost for me. Well, I'll tell you this is my 48 00:03:25,396 --> 00:03:29,356 Speaker 1: favorite story on this very topic. As in a coffee 49 00:03:29,356 --> 00:03:32,076 Speaker 1: shop and fancy neighborhood in Houston. Don't ask me why 50 00:03:32,076 --> 00:03:33,476 Speaker 1: I was in a fancy neighboro in Euston. I was. 51 00:03:33,956 --> 00:03:37,556 Speaker 1: Woman pulls up in a ranger rover with a full 52 00:03:37,636 --> 00:03:41,716 Speaker 1: on Houston society matron, right, Jules the whole nine yards 53 00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:45,116 Speaker 1: comes in, sees me, comes over to me and says you, Malcolm, Well, 54 00:03:45,156 --> 00:03:50,596 Speaker 1: I say yes, she goes. I listen to everything you 55 00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:53,196 Speaker 1: do and read all of your books, and I disagree 56 00:03:53,236 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 1: with everything you say. And I was like, you know what, 57 00:03:57,196 --> 00:04:00,036 Speaker 1: that makes me feel good? Makes it feel really good. 58 00:04:00,356 --> 00:04:03,196 Speaker 1: Right to your point about open mindedness. She was open minded. 59 00:04:03,636 --> 00:04:06,916 Speaker 1: And my hope Sunday maybe she'll agree with me. You know, 60 00:04:06,956 --> 00:04:11,156 Speaker 1: we'll get there. We're not there yet. But the woman 61 00:04:11,196 --> 00:04:14,676 Speaker 1: with the jewels and the range rover had the whatever 62 00:04:14,716 --> 00:04:18,116 Speaker 1: it is to keep listening to somebody who she disagree with. 63 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:21,916 Speaker 1: Good for her. Yeah, I think we gave up to 64 00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:27,836 Speaker 1: easily on the question of bridging divisions in this country. 65 00:04:28,356 --> 00:04:30,476 Speaker 1: Sometimes I hear people on both sides and I think 66 00:04:30,476 --> 00:04:32,636 Speaker 1: they despair that you can ever have a conversation with 67 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:35,116 Speaker 1: someone on the other side, And I actually think, maybe 68 00:04:35,116 --> 00:04:37,316 Speaker 1: you won't win them over, but you can totally have 69 00:04:37,356 --> 00:04:41,676 Speaker 1: the conversation and you can plant some little seed and 70 00:04:41,756 --> 00:04:45,876 Speaker 1: maybe that sea grows into something someday. And also it 71 00:04:45,876 --> 00:04:48,356 Speaker 1: cuts both ways. Like I live Upstate New York, and 72 00:04:48,356 --> 00:04:51,236 Speaker 1: whenever I go to the airport, there are these cops 73 00:04:51,316 --> 00:04:54,516 Speaker 1: who on their spare time, they drive people to the airport. 74 00:04:54,676 --> 00:04:56,316 Speaker 1: I always get driven to the airport. But it's like 75 00:04:57,076 --> 00:05:00,036 Speaker 1: there's a police officer and he's super interesting, Like I 76 00:05:00,076 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 1: don't know a lot of cops personally, he doesn't know 77 00:05:03,716 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 1: my ideological perspective, I read any of my books. But 78 00:05:06,956 --> 00:05:08,596 Speaker 1: he just talks about what it's like to be a cop. 79 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:11,276 Speaker 1: And I learned something from him, and he learned something 80 00:05:11,276 --> 00:05:15,596 Speaker 1: from me. It's actually it's insanely useful exercise for all 81 00:05:15,596 --> 00:05:18,156 Speaker 1: of it, and and also kind of fun to hear 82 00:05:18,196 --> 00:05:21,516 Speaker 1: about the world from his perspective. What always surprises me. 83 00:05:21,676 --> 00:05:23,076 Speaker 1: You know, I have a data point of like three 84 00:05:23,236 --> 00:05:27,516 Speaker 1: or three cops when they're not in the public eye 85 00:05:27,916 --> 00:05:30,996 Speaker 1: and it's a low stakes conversation, you find you agree 86 00:05:30,996 --> 00:05:34,036 Speaker 1: with them way more. And I really think there's something 87 00:05:34,076 --> 00:05:37,636 Speaker 1: here where the way in which we engage in conversations 88 00:05:37,636 --> 00:05:41,676 Speaker 1: with people is dictating their response. That's why even in 89 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:45,156 Speaker 1: the recent piece I did for The Atlantic, I was 90 00:05:45,476 --> 00:05:50,796 Speaker 1: trying to separate the conversation about individual officers from the 91 00:05:50,876 --> 00:05:55,516 Speaker 1: institution of policing because to the larger point, I think 92 00:05:55,596 --> 00:06:03,236 Speaker 1: that we don't really recognize the capacity that people have 93 00:06:03,436 --> 00:06:08,156 Speaker 1: to change. I have actually gotten some criticism because I 94 00:06:08,316 --> 00:06:13,236 Speaker 1: consistent they offer people that ability to change, And even 95 00:06:13,316 --> 00:06:16,516 Speaker 1: talking about being anti racist, I've talked about it as 96 00:06:16,716 --> 00:06:19,316 Speaker 1: a journey, and in that journey, people are going to 97 00:06:19,396 --> 00:06:21,436 Speaker 1: make mistakes, meaning people are going to say things and 98 00:06:21,476 --> 00:06:25,316 Speaker 1: do things that are racist, but we have to recognize 99 00:06:25,356 --> 00:06:28,876 Speaker 1: that person who is trying. Part of it for me 100 00:06:28,996 --> 00:06:32,556 Speaker 1: is just as a student of history, there's just been 101 00:06:32,636 --> 00:06:38,876 Speaker 1: so many improbable people who transform themselves. Even Malcolm X, 102 00:06:38,916 --> 00:06:43,116 Speaker 1: the other great Malcolm, where he went from as a 103 00:06:43,156 --> 00:06:47,516 Speaker 1: teenager somebody incarcerated to who he became, and even who 104 00:06:47,556 --> 00:06:51,156 Speaker 1: he became as this voice of the Nation of Islam, 105 00:06:51,236 --> 00:06:54,756 Speaker 1: which had this sort of anti white philosophy, and then 106 00:06:55,116 --> 00:07:00,236 Speaker 1: he discarded that philosophy, called it racist, then said to 107 00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:01,876 Speaker 1: the world, I'm going to be different, and I'm going 108 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 1: to judge people not based on the color of their skin. 109 00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:08,156 Speaker 1: I mean, people can change, but for whatever reason, we 110 00:07:08,236 --> 00:07:11,316 Speaker 1: don't take those less from history, whether white or black people, 111 00:07:12,156 --> 00:07:16,836 Speaker 1: as guideposts. You know, I got really interested in Roberty Lee, 112 00:07:17,196 --> 00:07:19,596 Speaker 1: one of the principal generals in the Confederate Army. But 113 00:07:19,716 --> 00:07:24,316 Speaker 1: the last couple of years of his life it starts 114 00:07:24,316 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 1: to get really interesting. He starts to put his credibility 115 00:07:27,636 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 1: in the line on behalf of reconstruction. Now you can argue, 116 00:07:31,116 --> 00:07:34,396 Speaker 1: does he redeem himself in our eyes completely? I have 117 00:07:34,436 --> 00:07:36,676 Speaker 1: no idea. I'm not a historian of property Lee. But 118 00:07:36,996 --> 00:07:39,796 Speaker 1: do you put about movement. He's in a different place 119 00:07:41,076 --> 00:07:43,476 Speaker 1: at the end of his life than he was when 120 00:07:43,476 --> 00:07:45,876 Speaker 1: he signs up with the Confederate Army at the beginning 121 00:07:45,916 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 1: of the Civil War. And I think you're right. I 122 00:07:48,156 --> 00:07:52,076 Speaker 1: think we have to give people room to grow. Otherwise 123 00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:55,996 Speaker 1: all of these exercises are pointless. I think it's also 124 00:07:56,036 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 1: important for us to distinguish individuals in their capacity to change, 125 00:08:00,356 --> 00:08:06,596 Speaker 1: from institutions and from structures. Oftentimes, when we believe people 126 00:08:06,676 --> 00:08:11,796 Speaker 1: can't change, we also believes can't change, or humanity can't change, 127 00:08:11,916 --> 00:08:17,076 Speaker 1: or structures can't change. And people and structures and nations 128 00:08:17,116 --> 00:08:21,436 Speaker 1: are malleable. I mean, that's what makes humanity distinct. Yeah, 129 00:08:21,596 --> 00:08:25,916 Speaker 1: that we can change, yeah, yeah, and police departments can change. Yes. 130 00:08:26,236 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 1: I was very interested in your Atlantic piece because I 131 00:08:28,876 --> 00:08:33,476 Speaker 1: have returned in my writing to police and law enforcement 132 00:08:33,636 --> 00:08:36,796 Speaker 1: stuff again and again. I mean, do you remember the 133 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:40,356 Speaker 1: Amadu Diallo case in New York City, who was an 134 00:08:41,036 --> 00:08:44,156 Speaker 1: African immigrant who was shot thirty two times. Did a 135 00:08:44,236 --> 00:08:47,076 Speaker 1: chapter on that in my book Blink in two thousand 136 00:08:47,156 --> 00:08:49,676 Speaker 1: and four, and that was the thing that kind of 137 00:08:49,676 --> 00:08:51,876 Speaker 1: plunged me into this issue, and I've been coming back. 138 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:54,356 Speaker 1: You know, if you write about police shootings in this country, 139 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:56,916 Speaker 1: do you have a lot to write about. But I've 140 00:08:56,956 --> 00:09:00,476 Speaker 1: always thought that it's not a problem that will be 141 00:09:00,516 --> 00:09:04,476 Speaker 1: with us forever. I've always had some kind of optimism 142 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:09,436 Speaker 1: that we can figure out a way through this. Maybe 143 00:09:09,436 --> 00:09:12,276 Speaker 1: I'm naive. I did think the change would come quicker. 144 00:09:13,356 --> 00:09:15,516 Speaker 1: I certainly thought you would have seen something more dramatic 145 00:09:15,556 --> 00:09:18,596 Speaker 1: after you know, Michael Brown and Ferguson. But I would 146 00:09:18,636 --> 00:09:20,476 Speaker 1: have thought after Dialo you would have seen stuff like 147 00:09:20,476 --> 00:09:22,356 Speaker 1: and that was in two thousand and two or three. 148 00:09:22,756 --> 00:09:27,036 Speaker 1: But just because it takes longer than it should doesn't 149 00:09:27,076 --> 00:09:30,756 Speaker 1: mean it's never gonna happen. There seems to be this 150 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:35,756 Speaker 1: common idea that if only people would have been more compliant, 151 00:09:36,796 --> 00:09:41,036 Speaker 1: then there would have been a different outcome. They would 152 00:09:41,036 --> 00:09:44,236 Speaker 1: not have died. It's easy for us to sort of 153 00:09:44,956 --> 00:09:49,396 Speaker 1: blame the person who died. But we have been told 154 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:55,116 Speaker 1: there is a tremendous amount of violent crime in this country, 155 00:09:56,116 --> 00:09:58,676 Speaker 1: and the cause of that violent crime, we have been 156 00:09:58,716 --> 00:10:03,516 Speaker 1: told directly and indirectly, are those people. And so therefore, 157 00:10:04,476 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 1: in order to protect the nation from these people, we 158 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:13,196 Speaker 1: need ma massive policing forces because those black people in 159 00:10:13,236 --> 00:10:16,236 Speaker 1: their neighborhoods are dangerous, and it creates this sort of 160 00:10:16,276 --> 00:10:21,556 Speaker 1: cycle that then leads to American policing costing more than 161 00:10:21,636 --> 00:10:27,036 Speaker 1: every other national military in the world except the US 162 00:10:27,156 --> 00:10:30,036 Speaker 1: military and the Chinese military. At the same time, there 163 00:10:30,076 --> 00:10:34,316 Speaker 1: are nations with less crime and less police. Why can't 164 00:10:34,436 --> 00:10:40,396 Speaker 1: we recognize that generally speaking, people commit crimes out of 165 00:10:40,516 --> 00:10:45,436 Speaker 1: deprivation and poverty and unemployment. Why can't we realize that 166 00:10:46,116 --> 00:10:49,716 Speaker 1: there are these larger structural forces that have led to 167 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:52,756 Speaker 1: this police violence that we're not addressing. That we need 168 00:10:52,796 --> 00:10:57,396 Speaker 1: to focus on that discussion about compliance, that idea that 169 00:10:57,476 --> 00:11:01,796 Speaker 1: the responsibility for any of these bad outcomes and police 170 00:11:01,796 --> 00:11:06,956 Speaker 1: stops falls on the person being stopped, not the person 171 00:11:06,996 --> 00:11:11,916 Speaker 1: doing the stopping. I was reminded of my favorite hobby horse, 172 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:18,596 Speaker 1: which is school suspensions. School suspensions are disproportionately passed out 173 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:22,356 Speaker 1: to particularly black boys. So two kids are the same offense, 174 00:11:22,436 --> 00:11:25,276 Speaker 1: one white, one black, the black kid is way, way, 175 00:11:25,356 --> 00:11:27,516 Speaker 1: way more likely to be suspended for that. Yeah, we 176 00:11:27,636 --> 00:11:32,796 Speaker 1: also know that suspensions have huge collateral consequences, that there's 177 00:11:32,836 --> 00:11:35,436 Speaker 1: not a stitch of available social science evidence to suggests 178 00:11:35,436 --> 00:11:38,196 Speaker 1: that any good comes out of a suspension. To the contrary, 179 00:11:38,316 --> 00:11:40,556 Speaker 1: it seems like it's worse. So why do we keep 180 00:11:40,596 --> 00:11:42,116 Speaker 1: doing them what We keep doing them for the same 181 00:11:42,116 --> 00:11:44,556 Speaker 1: reason that you're talking about that we think if a 182 00:11:44,636 --> 00:11:50,716 Speaker 1: child misbehaves, then it's their responsibility to comply with the 183 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:52,956 Speaker 1: rules or we will cast them out of the school. 184 00:11:53,236 --> 00:11:56,076 Speaker 1: Right as opposed to saying, actually, the reason we have 185 00:11:56,276 --> 00:12:01,476 Speaker 1: teachers and principles is to cope with the variety of behavior. 186 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:03,876 Speaker 1: Why else would we have schools if we didn't think 187 00:12:03,876 --> 00:12:07,876 Speaker 1: schools were civilizing agents. It's always baffled me as long 188 00:12:07,916 --> 00:12:11,036 Speaker 1: as I've looked at these black white differentials that that's 189 00:12:11,036 --> 00:12:12,916 Speaker 1: an easy argument to make when the kid's white, and 190 00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:15,076 Speaker 1: a really hard argument to make when the kid's black. 191 00:12:16,476 --> 00:12:19,676 Speaker 1: It's the same thing with police stops two sets of rules. 192 00:12:20,036 --> 00:12:22,676 Speaker 1: I think so, and part of it is this larger 193 00:12:23,596 --> 00:12:30,916 Speaker 1: narrative of racist ideas that fundamentally cause us to not 194 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:38,676 Speaker 1: recognize these larger practices or forces. So not asking would 195 00:12:38,676 --> 00:12:41,916 Speaker 1: the teacher have suspended that student if that student would 196 00:12:41,916 --> 00:12:44,516 Speaker 1: have been white, Would the teacher have asked that student 197 00:12:45,236 --> 00:12:49,556 Speaker 1: what's wrong? You know, as opposed to Okay, that's a 198 00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:53,036 Speaker 1: misbehaving student, and therefore I need to respond with force, 199 00:12:53,516 --> 00:12:59,156 Speaker 1: i e. Suspension In the case of police interactions. You know, 200 00:12:59,316 --> 00:13:01,196 Speaker 1: there have been times in which I'm headed for an 201 00:13:01,196 --> 00:13:04,236 Speaker 1: interview or something, or I'm headed for something extremely sort 202 00:13:04,236 --> 00:13:06,116 Speaker 1: of timely which I have to be there on time, 203 00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:08,676 Speaker 1: and I get pulled over at the police and then 204 00:13:08,716 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 1: I'm agitated but then I know that if I show 205 00:13:13,476 --> 00:13:16,956 Speaker 1: that agitation that it's going to be read in a 206 00:13:16,996 --> 00:13:19,276 Speaker 1: particular way by the officer, which is then going to 207 00:13:19,396 --> 00:13:24,316 Speaker 1: justify any sort of force or anything that he does 208 00:13:24,356 --> 00:13:27,996 Speaker 1: to me, When in reality, if I'm agitated in my 209 00:13:28,116 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 1: way and I say that, it's just understood. Oh of 210 00:13:31,796 --> 00:13:34,636 Speaker 1: course this person's agitated because they were headed for an interview. 211 00:13:34,796 --> 00:13:38,316 Speaker 1: There's nothing else. They don't feel personally as if they 212 00:13:38,316 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 1: were slighted or disrespected, because there's that human connection of 213 00:13:45,036 --> 00:13:48,876 Speaker 1: I understand that, and I think we have to figure 214 00:13:48,876 --> 00:13:53,036 Speaker 1: out a way to re establish, particularly across racial lines, 215 00:13:54,076 --> 00:13:58,156 Speaker 1: that human connection, because that's what we all are. Yeah, yeah, 216 00:13:58,836 --> 00:14:00,356 Speaker 1: this is a question I've had in the back around 217 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:02,196 Speaker 1: line for a while. Then you're the perfect person who answered, 218 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:06,476 Speaker 1: which is I feel like people are using the word 219 00:14:07,036 --> 00:14:11,956 Speaker 1: racist too liberally and it's undercutting its power and importance. 220 00:14:12,796 --> 00:14:15,116 Speaker 1: They're using it to describe things that are dumb or 221 00:14:15,156 --> 00:14:20,036 Speaker 1: awkward or unfortunate that aren't actually racist, and so when 222 00:14:20,196 --> 00:14:23,716 Speaker 1: we actually do have something that actually does fit to definition, 223 00:14:24,076 --> 00:14:28,716 Speaker 1: the word has been cheapened. Like some sports podcaster who 224 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:33,276 Speaker 1: I like, made some stupid joke someone called it racist. 225 00:14:33,316 --> 00:14:36,876 Speaker 1: I was like, you know what happened to George Floyd's racism? 226 00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:41,796 Speaker 1: Exclusionary zoning is racism. Segregation is racism. That was a 227 00:14:41,796 --> 00:14:44,196 Speaker 1: stupid joke. Is it a mistake to use the same 228 00:14:44,236 --> 00:14:47,916 Speaker 1: word to describe two things that have dramatically different impacts 229 00:14:47,916 --> 00:14:53,116 Speaker 1: on the world? Intensions, origins, history? Do we lose sight 230 00:14:53,156 --> 00:14:56,236 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about? Yeah, this is a question 231 00:14:56,276 --> 00:15:00,236 Speaker 1: that I've struggled with. Like, so some people say I 232 00:15:00,276 --> 00:15:02,636 Speaker 1: think everything is racist. No, I actually don't think everything 233 00:15:02,716 --> 00:15:05,356 Speaker 1: is racist. I only think an idea is racist if 234 00:15:05,436 --> 00:15:08,756 Speaker 1: someone is connoting that a particular racial group is in 235 00:15:08,796 --> 00:15:12,556 Speaker 1: theory or superior. I only think a policy is racist 236 00:15:13,076 --> 00:15:18,756 Speaker 1: if it's leading to or growing a racial inequity or injustice. 237 00:15:19,476 --> 00:15:22,836 Speaker 1: What I think is important that I think can help 238 00:15:22,956 --> 00:15:27,196 Speaker 1: is if we develop, as a human community a shared 239 00:15:27,436 --> 00:15:32,316 Speaker 1: and consistent definition of the term racist. So what we 240 00:15:32,436 --> 00:15:37,716 Speaker 1: currently have is so many different definitions, many of which 241 00:15:38,196 --> 00:15:41,516 Speaker 1: don't align. And that's why even how to be an 242 00:15:41,516 --> 00:15:45,236 Speaker 1: anti racist, I wanted to anchor every chapter on definitions 243 00:15:46,156 --> 00:15:50,276 Speaker 1: because I just think us having common definitions would allow 244 00:15:50,396 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 1: us to only use the term when it's applicable. And 245 00:15:53,316 --> 00:15:57,196 Speaker 1: I certainly do think the term is used when it's 246 00:15:57,316 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 1: not applicable, but I also think it's not used when 247 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:03,516 Speaker 1: it is applicable. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense to me. 248 00:16:03,796 --> 00:16:06,956 Speaker 1: I like that idea of developing a richer and more 249 00:16:07,036 --> 00:16:13,596 Speaker 1: meaningful vocabulary around things that we find offensive for various reasons. 250 00:16:13,876 --> 00:16:17,716 Speaker 1: And there's a difference between something that is merely tasteless 251 00:16:17,716 --> 00:16:22,156 Speaker 1: and something that is harmful and dangerous and deeply bigoted. 252 00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 1: Racism is almost like cancer, and I always go back 253 00:16:25,996 --> 00:16:29,356 Speaker 1: to that analogy, particularly as someone who's battled cancer, in 254 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:33,956 Speaker 1: which you know cancer is widespread, there is multiple stages 255 00:16:33,996 --> 00:16:36,876 Speaker 1: of cancer, stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four, 256 00:16:36,916 --> 00:16:41,196 Speaker 1: and there's this understanding that stage four is lethal. It's dangerous, 257 00:16:41,196 --> 00:16:45,116 Speaker 1: it can kill you. Stage one it's more of something. 258 00:16:45,156 --> 00:16:47,276 Speaker 1: If you don't get a handle on it quickly, it 259 00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:51,596 Speaker 1: can become lethal and dangerous. So even having this understood 260 00:16:51,676 --> 00:16:55,676 Speaker 1: gradation that let's say, if we do call that lighter 261 00:16:55,716 --> 00:16:59,276 Speaker 1: thing racist, but it's understood that it's not stage four 262 00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:03,316 Speaker 1: stage one, it then allows us to speak about and 263 00:17:03,356 --> 00:17:08,116 Speaker 1: distinguish both. Yeah. Yeah, well, all of this suggests to me, 264 00:17:08,476 --> 00:17:11,556 Speaker 1: even that show you're doing, it's going to be both 265 00:17:11,676 --> 00:17:15,596 Speaker 1: fascinating and also really useful in the world that we're 266 00:17:15,596 --> 00:17:18,316 Speaker 1: living in right now, and I want to formally once 267 00:17:18,356 --> 00:17:20,916 Speaker 1: again welcome you to the Pushkin family. I am delighted 268 00:17:20,956 --> 00:17:24,836 Speaker 1: you're doing this, and I'm looking forward to the many 269 00:17:24,916 --> 00:17:27,156 Speaker 1: great conversations you'll have on the show. Well, thank you 270 00:17:27,196 --> 00:17:29,956 Speaker 1: so much, Malcolm, and of course I've admired your work 271 00:17:29,996 --> 00:17:31,916 Speaker 1: and I'm so glad to be a part of the 272 00:17:31,956 --> 00:17:37,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin family. Now bring it on, and now here's a 273 00:17:38,036 --> 00:17:41,796 Speaker 1: sneak preview of Being Anti Racist. You can find my 274 00:17:41,876 --> 00:17:45,276 Speaker 1: new show in the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get 275 00:17:45,316 --> 00:17:56,156 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Welcome to Be Anti Racist, an action podcast 276 00:17:56,236 --> 00:18:00,796 Speaker 1: where we discuss how to diagnose, dismantle, and abolish racism, 277 00:18:00,836 --> 00:18:04,636 Speaker 1: how to save humanity from the divisiveness of racist ideas 278 00:18:05,116 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 1: and the destructiveness of racist power and policy, How to 279 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:12,796 Speaker 1: free humanity through the unity of anti racist ideas and 280 00:18:12,916 --> 00:18:17,996 Speaker 1: the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy. On b 281 00:18:18,196 --> 00:18:22,476 Speaker 1: Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the impossible possible, 282 00:18:22,916 --> 00:18:26,436 Speaker 1: and how to bring into being what modern humans have 283 00:18:26,676 --> 00:18:33,676 Speaker 1: never known, adjust in equitable world. You ready, let's roll. 284 00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:47,436 Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirties and forties, the United States went 285 00:18:47,476 --> 00:18:50,836 Speaker 1: on a nationwide building boom of public amenities funded by 286 00:18:50,996 --> 00:18:56,236 Speaker 1: tax dollars, which in Montgomery, Alabama, included the Oak Park Pool, 287 00:18:56,636 --> 00:19:00,476 Speaker 1: except the Oak Park Pool was for whites only. When 288 00:19:00,476 --> 00:19:04,996 Speaker 1: a federal court finally deemed this unconstitutional, the reaction of 289 00:19:04,996 --> 00:19:08,556 Speaker 1: the town council was swift. They would drain the public 290 00:19:08,596 --> 00:19:13,596 Speaker 1: pool rather than let black families swim to Heather McGee 291 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:16,876 Speaker 1: is an expert in economic and social policy and the 292 00:19:17,036 --> 00:19:20,516 Speaker 1: author of the best selling book The Some of Us, 293 00:19:20,556 --> 00:19:24,236 Speaker 1: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can prosper Together. 294 00:19:25,316 --> 00:19:29,756 Speaker 1: Heather explodes one of the greatest racial myths, that white 295 00:19:29,756 --> 00:19:33,996 Speaker 1: people lose as people of color gain. She shows that 296 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:39,836 Speaker 1: as racism wins, we all lose. Heather is one of 297 00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:44,076 Speaker 1: America's sharpest thinkers. The former president of the inequality focused 298 00:19:44,076 --> 00:19:49,516 Speaker 1: Stink Take Demos and its drafted legislation, testified before Congress, 299 00:19:49,556 --> 00:19:54,636 Speaker 1: and contributed regularly to new shows, including NBC's Meet the Press. 300 00:19:54,676 --> 00:19:58,036 Speaker 1: She now chairs the board of Color of Change, the 301 00:19:58,156 --> 00:20:03,436 Speaker 1: nation's largest online racial justice organization. I sat down with 302 00:20:03,476 --> 00:20:07,556 Speaker 1: Heather McGee recently to learn how by investing in each other, 303 00:20:08,116 --> 00:20:13,876 Speaker 1: we can all better jobs, better health, better democracy, better schools, 304 00:20:14,116 --> 00:20:20,636 Speaker 1: better neighborhoods for our kids, and so much more. Heathers always, 305 00:20:20,716 --> 00:20:25,276 Speaker 1: it's truly an honor to speak with you. Your book, 306 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:28,436 Speaker 1: The Some of Us is the type of book that 307 00:20:28,796 --> 00:20:31,716 Speaker 1: I learned from that I think many Americans and many 308 00:20:31,716 --> 00:20:34,436 Speaker 1: people around the world can learn from. I wrote this 309 00:20:34,476 --> 00:20:39,276 Speaker 1: book because I felt like we were missing something in 310 00:20:39,356 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 1: the great pursuit of a society. It should be to 311 00:20:42,636 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: have progress, to have people have less want and more joy, 312 00:20:48,236 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 1: people to have more of the fruits of economic progress 313 00:20:53,676 --> 00:20:57,756 Speaker 1: and technological progress, and for our problems to be solved 314 00:20:57,876 --> 00:21:02,996 Speaker 1: generation after generation, right, And it felt like that progress 315 00:21:03,036 --> 00:21:09,396 Speaker 1: slowing down, slash reversing. When some Americans a man gin 316 00:21:09,916 --> 00:21:13,436 Speaker 1: the transformation of this country, they imagine that they're going 317 00:21:13,476 --> 00:21:16,796 Speaker 1: to lose if we actually create an equitable and just, 318 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:21,596 Speaker 1: anti racist America. And it seems, as you've written, that 319 00:21:21,596 --> 00:21:25,596 Speaker 1: that's based on a zero sum myth. So I left 320 00:21:25,636 --> 00:21:29,316 Speaker 1: a career in economic policy to go out on this 321 00:21:29,756 --> 00:21:35,476 Speaker 1: quixotic journey in some way to find the answer to 322 00:21:35,516 --> 00:21:37,956 Speaker 1: the question of why can't we seem to have nice things? 323 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:40,396 Speaker 1: And what are the roots of our dysfunction? Yes, and 324 00:21:40,436 --> 00:21:43,876 Speaker 1: it's there that I came upon this paradigm of the 325 00:21:43,996 --> 00:21:47,356 Speaker 1: zero sum. It's a term that means there's no such 326 00:21:47,396 --> 00:21:52,156 Speaker 1: thing as mutual progress when you have people who are 327 00:21:52,236 --> 00:21:55,716 Speaker 1: in a competition with one another. If team A scores 328 00:21:55,796 --> 00:21:59,596 Speaker 1: one more point, team B scores one less point, the 329 00:21:59,876 --> 00:22:02,676 Speaker 1: points will always add up to zero positive on one side, 330 00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:06,476 Speaker 1: negative on the other. Progress for team A has to 331 00:22:06,516 --> 00:22:09,516 Speaker 1: come at the expense of team B. There's a limited 332 00:22:09,756 --> 00:22:15,196 Speaker 1: or fixed pie. And that idea resonated so deeply with me. 333 00:22:15,236 --> 00:22:17,476 Speaker 1: It sort of gave a name and a description to 334 00:22:17,756 --> 00:22:22,676 Speaker 1: something I had sensed my whole life, this fear that 335 00:22:23,356 --> 00:22:31,316 Speaker 1: when white supremacy falls, that the world will become one 336 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:36,476 Speaker 1: that white people should fear. Therefore, racism is really great 337 00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:39,316 Speaker 1: for white people, really terrible for people of color, and 338 00:22:39,396 --> 00:22:43,836 Speaker 1: so their self interest is in preserving racism at all costs. 339 00:22:44,156 --> 00:22:46,876 Speaker 1: And it's the at all costs piece that really felt 340 00:22:46,876 --> 00:22:50,156 Speaker 1: so important for me to lay out, what are the 341 00:22:50,236 --> 00:22:55,516 Speaker 1: costs of racism to our entire society, What exactly is 342 00:22:55,556 --> 00:22:59,556 Speaker 1: the price white people are willing to pay to keep 343 00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:03,836 Speaker 1: the system as it has been? And once I started looking, 344 00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:08,076 Speaker 1: the list just kept growing, and that made it clear 345 00:23:08,116 --> 00:23:12,556 Speaker 1: to me that we have the self interested elites packaging 346 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:17,276 Speaker 1: marketing selling this zero sum why to most white Americans 347 00:23:18,036 --> 00:23:22,076 Speaker 1: and they're doing it for their own profit. But our side, 348 00:23:22,236 --> 00:23:25,556 Speaker 1: when we only talk about racism as something that's good 349 00:23:25,556 --> 00:23:27,876 Speaker 1: for white people, are kind of like helping out a 350 00:23:27,876 --> 00:23:31,356 Speaker 1: little bit. Right. My provocation, the agitation that made me 351 00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:33,516 Speaker 1: feel like, Okay, maybe I do have something to add 352 00:23:33,556 --> 00:23:36,716 Speaker 1: to this conversation was we haven't told the full story 353 00:23:37,076 --> 00:23:40,996 Speaker 1: of what it has cost this entire country. You were 354 00:23:41,036 --> 00:23:44,796 Speaker 1: specifically writing about white folks who think that they're going 355 00:23:44,796 --> 00:23:47,596 Speaker 1: to lose, But as a man of color reading it, 356 00:23:48,396 --> 00:23:52,156 Speaker 1: I also think men of color too have bought into 357 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:56,796 Speaker 1: this myth of the zero sum. And I think that 358 00:23:56,916 --> 00:24:01,876 Speaker 1: as they've seen women of color organizing and advocating, in 359 00:24:01,916 --> 00:24:05,196 Speaker 1: some cases rising, they too have felt threatened as if 360 00:24:05,236 --> 00:24:08,556 Speaker 1: they're losing. Yeah, but back to white folks, this is 361 00:24:08,556 --> 00:24:10,636 Speaker 1: what I've been sort of saying, and I want to 362 00:24:10,636 --> 00:24:16,996 Speaker 1: know whether I'm just wrong that white Americans typically compare 363 00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:21,596 Speaker 1: their lot two people of color, and so, in other words, 364 00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:26,356 Speaker 1: if their school has more resources in a way, their 365 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 1: child's school is almost like a first class school. They're like, WHOA, 366 00:24:30,276 --> 00:24:33,596 Speaker 1: if we create equity, then I'm gonna be back in coach. Yeah, 367 00:24:33,796 --> 00:24:36,036 Speaker 1: I don't want that. I'm gonna lose. My kid's gonna lose. 368 00:24:36,636 --> 00:24:39,916 Speaker 1: But it seems to me that white Americans should be 369 00:24:39,916 --> 00:24:44,836 Speaker 1: assessing themselves from other white people in the Western world. Yeah, 370 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:48,436 Speaker 1: and when they make that comparison, that's when they can 371 00:24:48,516 --> 00:24:52,476 Speaker 1: see actually what they don't have. How they're in coach. 372 00:24:53,156 --> 00:24:56,756 Speaker 1: That's right, And in fact, maybe in other societies in 373 00:24:56,756 --> 00:25:00,036 Speaker 1: the Western world, everybody's just in first class. There's no 374 00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:02,836 Speaker 1: little curtain that the flight attendant moves over right, and 375 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:06,476 Speaker 1: everyone gets food right, everyone has a leg room, you know, 376 00:25:06,636 --> 00:25:11,756 Speaker 1: everybody gets to bring a bag. This really comes from 377 00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:15,756 Speaker 1: and is a feature of how brutally hierarchical our society is. 378 00:25:16,156 --> 00:25:18,076 Speaker 1: In the first chapter of the Some of Us, I 379 00:25:18,156 --> 00:25:21,476 Speaker 1: go back in our history to the beginning to find 380 00:25:21,476 --> 00:25:25,236 Speaker 1: out where this zero sum worldview and this lie came from, 381 00:25:25,276 --> 00:25:28,636 Speaker 1: whose interest it served, and why it sort of reanimated 382 00:25:28,716 --> 00:25:32,556 Speaker 1: generation after generation. And as it turns out, it was 383 00:25:32,636 --> 00:25:37,796 Speaker 1: created as a way to sort of discipline white Europeans 384 00:25:38,636 --> 00:25:44,476 Speaker 1: in the colonial era to be satisfied with their lot 385 00:25:44,796 --> 00:25:49,996 Speaker 1: in a society where wealth was still quite concentrated and 386 00:25:50,076 --> 00:25:53,516 Speaker 1: where because of chattel slavery in the plantation economy, there 387 00:25:53,516 --> 00:25:56,836 Speaker 1: actually wasn't a lot of room a white person who 388 00:25:57,076 --> 00:26:01,516 Speaker 1: was not a plantation owner. Their labor wasn't needed in 389 00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:04,796 Speaker 1: the southern economy, right, Like, what do we need you for? Right? 390 00:26:04,916 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 1: This myth of white supremacy was sold to white masses 391 00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:12,156 Speaker 1: so that they could have, of course, as WB the 392 00:26:12,196 --> 00:26:16,756 Speaker 1: boys said, the psychological wages of whiteness rather than material wages, 393 00:26:16,996 --> 00:26:21,396 Speaker 1: and those psychological wages were knowing always that in a 394 00:26:21,476 --> 00:26:27,636 Speaker 1: deeply unequal economy they could nonetheless count on being more 395 00:26:27,716 --> 00:26:34,636 Speaker 1: than and better than black people. I hope you like 396 00:26:34,756 --> 00:26:37,796 Speaker 1: what you heard. The first episode is out now, and 397 00:26:37,836 --> 00:26:41,316 Speaker 1: we'll be dropping a new one each Wednesday this season. 398 00:26:41,396 --> 00:26:45,596 Speaker 1: You'll hear from people like Jamal Hill, Mariam Kaba, Leam Costro, 399 00:26:45,876 --> 00:26:49,956 Speaker 1: Ari Berman, Don Lemon, and more as we consider what 400 00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:52,996 Speaker 1: an anti racist future might look like and how we 401 00:26:53,116 --> 00:26:56,796 Speaker 1: can achieve one together. You can find be Anti Racist 402 00:26:56,916 --> 00:27:00,676 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.