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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: Hey, Paul, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing really good.

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Speaker 1: Okay. I need you to look to the right and

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Speaker 1: please give our anxious listeners an update on your fish.

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Speaker 1: Not a long update, well it can be long. I

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Speaker 1: guess if you want. They love your fish. And you

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Speaker 1: told me something was going on in the little ecosystem

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Speaker 1: that you've built, right, Oh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, over the past. I don't know at

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Speaker 2: this point. You know, maybe four months I ended up

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Speaker 2: having some sort of disease get into my tank. Oh no,

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Speaker 2: lost a fair number of fish, which was devastating, but

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Speaker 2: it's stabilized. I medicated it. I've got a few newer

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Speaker 2: fish in there. I've got a blue Hippo tang, which

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Speaker 2: is for if you don't know, that's Dory from the

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Speaker 2: Finding Nemo. Just a beautiful fish. And then I've got

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Speaker 2: a fox face, another beautiful fish, and I'm gonna slowly

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Speaker 2: start restocking it. I have to be much more diligent

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Speaker 2: to make sure I don't get another devastating disease into

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Speaker 2: the tank.

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Speaker 1: What happens? How does that even happen? If it's a

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Speaker 1: closed system.

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Speaker 2: Right, well, it's a closed system until I add something new,

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Speaker 2: you know. And this is where you know, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to have you know, for those people out there that

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Speaker 2: are true hobbyists, I'm probably going to get slapped a

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Speaker 2: little bit. You know. Technically, when you get a new fish,

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Speaker 2: you should quarantine that fish to make sure it doesn't

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Speaker 2: have a disease before you add it into the tank.

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Speaker 2: And I got kind of lazy and I added a

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Speaker 2: new fish in and I'm pretty sure brought a disease

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Speaker 2: into the tank, and so lesson learned. But no, right now,

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Speaker 2: the fish that are in there, you know, they still

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Speaker 2: have my yellow Watchman goby, pistol shrimp pear. I've got

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Speaker 2: a firefish. I've got a diamond goby that goes around

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Speaker 2: sifting the sand. He's my bone collector. He grabs all

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Speaker 2: the shells and puts them around his house.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: I've got a six line rass, which I love, you know.

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Speaker 2: And of course the fox face and the doryatfish, So

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Speaker 2: they're doing good.

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Speaker 1: Did your serial killer clownfish survive or no?

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Speaker 2: No, no, And this may sound bad, but in many

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Speaker 2: ways now that he's not in the tank, and I

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Speaker 2: probably should say she, because I'm pretty sure serial Killer

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Speaker 2: clown was a female, because you know, the clownfish are

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Speaker 2: all born male, and then the ones that become dominant

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Speaker 2: urn female. Of course, And yes, of course, but the

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Speaker 2: fact that that clownfish isn't in my tank, it's now

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Speaker 2: back to being a peaceful tank. The lobster is doing

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Speaker 2: well happy. You know. These reeflobsters are very shy, but

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Speaker 2: it's much more willing to come out when food is

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Speaker 2: put into the tank, you know. And I've got this

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Speaker 2: fire shrimp that will come out as well and dance

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Speaker 2: around a bit. And I still have an emerald crab

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Speaker 2: that you know, maybe once a month.

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Speaker 1: I see, Oh god, this tank is huge. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry about the I mean, I have a loss of

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Speaker 1: any animal is really sad. But it is interesting how

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Speaker 1: things have dramatically changed when you remove your aggressors from

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Speaker 1: the tank. And so I guess that's a lesson learned.

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Speaker 1: Or would you ever get any clownfish again?

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Speaker 2: I you know, I would be hesitant just because of

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Speaker 2: the experience with that one clownfish. You know, you want

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Speaker 2: to be very diligent about what fish you put in

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Speaker 2: to make sure they're compatible with the other fish as

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Speaker 2: well as with the invertebrates as well as with the coral,

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Speaker 2: you know. So I'm going to be taking my time

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Speaker 2: and making sure that I do things, you know, the

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Speaker 2: right way.

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Speaker 1: Well, best of luck to you. I can't wait for

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Speaker 1: updates on the fish, as our listeners feel the same

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Speaker 1: way I do. They love the updates. This moves us

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Speaker 1: into a story that I think is fascinating because we

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Speaker 1: get to the crime and we get to the killer

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly. It's the unraveling of the motive that I

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Speaker 1: think is really interesting. So another we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: serial killer clown fish and you know, we're looking for

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Speaker 1: the origin of where all of that instinct comes from.

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Speaker 1: And that's the mystery we have here, is what ends

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Speaker 1: up happening with this person. So I'm going to take

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Speaker 1: you back, Paul. Get ready, We're going back to eighteen

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Speaker 1: ninety and we're going to Akron, New York. So get ready.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to set the scene. Okay, Okay, Halloween Night,

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Speaker 1: which seems very spooky and ominous, really not in eighteen ninety.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't really, It's not really observed in western New

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Speaker 1: York at this time. So when I say Halloween night,

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Speaker 1: really it's October thirty.

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Speaker 2: First, Okay, So no trick or treaters out, and about no.

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Speaker 1: No trigger treaters out, and about Christmas is just kind

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Speaker 1: of catching on during this time period also, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: no no trick or treaters. It does happen to just

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Speaker 1: be October thirty first, ok And this isn't a small

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Speaker 1: town Akron, New York. Two little girls go missing. This

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Speaker 1: is a good caveat. It's always upsetting to talk about

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Speaker 1: the deaths of children. There doesn't appear to be any

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Speaker 1: sexual assault happen here, but still, you know, I just

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Speaker 1: want to warn people. If this is an episode you

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Speaker 1: need to zoom through or skip over. Let's get into

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Speaker 1: this story. The two little girls who are missing are

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Speaker 1: named Nellie May Connors, she is ten, and Delilah Brown,

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Speaker 1: who is six. And you know, Akron, as I had

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Speaker 1: mentioned before, is a small town. It's east of Buffalo

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Speaker 1: in eighteen ninety as a bustling metropolis, and it's close

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Speaker 1: to the Erie Canal. But Akron is a tiny little

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Speaker 1: place and very small. These are hometown girls, they're friends.

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Speaker 1: In the week hours of the morning, people are searching.

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Speaker 1: Now there have been concerned all night because they were missing,

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Speaker 1: and now they've been searching, and they go down to

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Speaker 1: a creek and it's called Murder Creek for various reasons,

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Speaker 1: mostly going back to battles involving indigenous people. I think

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Speaker 1: the fear probably was that they got lost, they ran away,

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Speaker 1: and that you know, they maybe had fallen into the

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Speaker 1: creek or had gotten hurt or something.

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Speaker 2: And just to clarify, Nellie and Delilah are together when

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Speaker 2: they go missing.

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Speaker 1: Correct ten year old and a six year old yep

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Speaker 1: in this small town. So they're searching all over the place.

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Speaker 1: The parents are very upset, of course, and they make

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Speaker 1: a discovery. I just want to get to this quickly.

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Speaker 1: They find Nelly's body below the New New York Central

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Speaker 1: Railroad Trustle, which is a bridge for freight trains. The

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Speaker 1: Trustle is about fifty feet above where Nelly is found,

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Speaker 1: and according to the newspapers, her body is cruelly bruised

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Speaker 1: and her brains have been dashed out from striking the

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Speaker 1: stone abundment. And this sounds like a terrible scene and

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Speaker 1: probably a really awful accident. So Nelly is the ten

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Speaker 1: year old, it sounds like could have fallen from the

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Speaker 1: bridge for freight trains and cause this kind of injury.

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Speaker 2: That's what it sounds like right now. Yeah, but you

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Speaker 2: know that's where the autopsy can possibly show, you know,

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Speaker 2: is this blunt force trauma from impact from a fall

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Speaker 2: or do you have blunt force trauma from some other

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Speaker 2: object striking Nelly from different directions that possibly would indicate,

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Speaker 2: you know, that somebody caused these injuries to.

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Speaker 1: Her and then hit her body underneath this bridge, right yes.

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Speaker 1: So they're looking for Delilah while they're recovering Nelly's body,

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Speaker 1: and she is alive, which is amazing because she's in

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Speaker 1: the creek. Her arms and her legs are broken, it

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Speaker 1: is cold, she is breathing painfully, and she is gravely injured.

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Speaker 1: Now they went missing, you know, Halloween night. This is

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Speaker 1: in the morning, so she has been in the creek

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Speaker 1: water this whole time. But she's alive, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they start to rescue her. Essentially, so arms and legs

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Speaker 1: broken and bruised, and all of that sounds like either

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Speaker 1: another fall or an intentional injury to a second little girl.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I haven't had a homicide case.

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Speaker 2: And where all four limbs are broken, you know, this

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Speaker 2: right now sounds like possibly, you know, she's bracing for

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Speaker 2: impact from a fall with their arms and legs and

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Speaker 2: they get broken from the fall. But again we have

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Speaker 2: to see what the pathologist says.

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Speaker 1: Fifty feet is that that's a long way, right, Fifty

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Speaker 1: feet would be a long way to fall, especially for

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Speaker 1: two little girls.

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Speaker 2: If that's what happened, fifty feet is a very significant fall.

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Speaker 2: You think about the room that you're sitting in right now.

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Speaker 2: The ceiling that you look up at is typically eight

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Speaker 2: feet tall, right roughly, so imagine five times at height

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Speaker 2: and impacting if you fall and you impact on concrete

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Speaker 2: that is often fatal.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have a pretty good answer about what happened,

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Speaker 1: and so I told you we were not going to

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Speaker 1: take long to get to the suspect, the offender in

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Speaker 1: this case. When they pull her from the creek, Delilah,

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Speaker 1: the six year old says, when they say what happened,

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Speaker 1: Delilah says, quote, Sarah was smart to throw us from

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Speaker 1: the bridge. It's cryptic and weird. And we know who

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Speaker 1: Sarah is.

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Speaker 2: I was going to ask who Sarah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we know who Sarah is. This is what ends

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Speaker 1: up happening. They are both thrown from this bridge that

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Speaker 1: is fifty feet above the surface below.

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Speaker 2: And this bridge is a railroad trestle. Yes, okay, So

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Speaker 2: with that type of statement, I'm thinking, you know, from

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Speaker 2: a little girl saying it, you know, who knows exactly

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Speaker 2: what her perception and her meaning of that statement is.

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Speaker 2: But were they out on this railroad trestle and a

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Speaker 2: train is coming and now I'm assuming Sarah is going

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Speaker 2: to be either same age or maybe an older individual

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Speaker 2: to save them. It's like get out of the way

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Speaker 2: of the train. You know, maybe it's just and Sarah recognizes,

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Speaker 2: oh no, and she runs home. But interesting statement.

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Speaker 1: It is, so we of course need to identify who

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Speaker 1: Sarah is. She actually goes by Sadie, but her name

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Speaker 1: is Sarah McMullen, but everyone calls her Sadie. She is older.

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Speaker 1: You're right, she's seventeen. She used to be a housekeeper

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Speaker 1: and a nanny in Delilah's house. Now we are certain

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Speaker 1: that Sadie did this because there were witnesses that she

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Speaker 1: was with the girls. Of course, Delilah is putting her there.

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Speaker 1: It's the why, I think, because the why is very

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Speaker 1: very confusing in this case, and we have more details

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Speaker 1: because we do have witnesses that place her with the girls.

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Speaker 1: So do you want me to talk about Sadie and

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Speaker 1: her relationship in this world or do you want me

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Speaker 1: to talk about the details of what happened with her

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Speaker 1: leading up to this, like actually what happened on October thirty.

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Speaker 2: First, my process is I always start, you know, with

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Speaker 2: the autopsy, with the crime scene. I'm assuming at this

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Speaker 2: point that the autopsy has shown that the injuries to

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Speaker 2: Nelly and Delilah are from impact from a fault. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So with that, now it's going to what happened at

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Speaker 2: the crime scene. So I now I'm working with Okay,

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Speaker 2: I've got two girls that have fallen off of this

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Speaker 2: railroad trestle. One is killed upon impact, the other is

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Speaker 2: able to survive. Is there anything to indicate that Sarah

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Speaker 2: went down to where the girl's bodies were at I.

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Speaker 1: Can just tell you now. Sarah is from their world.

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Speaker 1: She is known. They went with her on the day

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Speaker 1: of October thirty first, when this happens. Before that, Sadie

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Speaker 1: had been acting strangely. She spent the first part of

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Speaker 1: the day with the Browns, and the Browns were Delilah's

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Speaker 1: father and you know other family members. Delilah's dad was

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Speaker 1: a widower and he owned a saloon in town. Sadie

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Speaker 1: had originally been hired as help when Simon's wife went ill,

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Speaker 1: and then she died, and then she stayed on to

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Speaker 1: help with the housework until Simon's sister moved in, and

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Speaker 1: then Sadie had to find another job. She became a

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Speaker 1: servant in a household in Buffalo. She came back to

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Speaker 1: visit the family. The rumor was that she was infatuated

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Speaker 1: with Delilah's dad, who was Sadie's former boss, Simon Brown.

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Speaker 1: So Sadie comes back to visit, and on that day,

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Speaker 1: October thirty, first, the day the girls go missing, people

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Speaker 1: say when they're interviewed by investigators that Sadie had been

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Speaker 1: acting very strangely. She had been with the family with

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Speaker 1: Delilah's family in the first part of the day. They

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Speaker 1: still had a close relationship, and Nellie, the other little girl,

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Speaker 1: and Delilah were such good friends. You know, Nellie was

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Speaker 1: at the house all the time. Nellie was there, Sadie

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Speaker 1: played parlor games with the two girls and then said

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Speaker 1: let's go on a walk. So acting strangely, not yet,

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Speaker 1: but they say later in the day things took a

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Speaker 1: weird turn. She first took the girls to the general

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Speaker 1: store to buy butter, but instead of buying the butter,

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Speaker 1: she got into a huge argument with the shopkeeper, which

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Speaker 1: he remembered, and she slams a quarter on the counter

250
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Speaker 1: before walking out of the store with no butter. Maer

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Speaker 1: and the researcher said, this is akin to leaving a

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Speaker 1: ten dollar bill on the counter these days and just

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Speaker 1: walking out with nothing. And I'm assuming since she's a servant,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't have a lot of money to begin with,

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Speaker 1: so things are getting kind of weird. Already, So in

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Speaker 1: this situation, in my opinion, what we're looking at is

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Speaker 1: kind of premeditation. Is this someone who we are going

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Speaker 1: to see as having some sort of a psychological breakdown

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Speaker 1: resulting in what she does? Or is this a planned

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Speaker 1: out murder because she's in love with one of the

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Speaker 1: girl's fathers and something happens, she thinks that this is

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Speaker 1: justified in some reason. I think that's kind of what

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Speaker 1: we're trying to look at here.

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Speaker 2: That you know, in her of Sadie, there's multiple avenues

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Speaker 2: that possibly could be occurring. You know, is she taking

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Speaker 2: these girls out on a walk already with the intent

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Speaker 2: to kill them and has pre planned this? If so,

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Speaker 2: when did she make that decision? Was that decision made

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Speaker 2: that day or had that decision been made prior to

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Speaker 2: that day, or was this a spontaneous act? You know,

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Speaker 2: when we start saying that she's acting Sadie's acting strangely,

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Speaker 2: well that could mean a lot. It's like, well, what

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Speaker 2: exactly is that? Is she's showing some form of psychosis

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Speaker 2: where you know, she is having this this mental break

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Speaker 2: or the strange behavior is she is already thinking about

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Speaker 2: what she's going to do, you know, and so her

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Speaker 2: mental state is kind of acted, if you will, from

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Speaker 2: normal interactions. She's agitated. It sounds like at the general store,

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Speaker 2: you know. And is that just because she's in that

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Speaker 2: ramp up process behaviorally to where she knows she's going

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Speaker 2: to be committing this double homicide.

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Speaker 1: Those are all good questions, and her background, I think

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Speaker 1: is also pretty interesting too. So let's see, I'm jumping

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump around a little bit because we have

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Speaker 1: witnesses who say some stuff. There's an eleven year old

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Speaker 1: boy named Daniel Flynn. He says that about eight o'clock

287
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Speaker 1: on October thirty first, so this is nighttime, right, he

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Speaker 1: saw Sadie walking with the two girls. She was walking

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Speaker 1: between them, holding each of their hands, and she was

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Speaker 1: walking very fast in the direction of the railroad trestle.

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Speaker 1: He says that not long after that, Sadie returned by herself,

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Speaker 1: walking fast, holding hands. Girls are coming along. They trust her.

293
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,399
Speaker 1: So again we you and I are trying to figure out,

294
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Speaker 1: as a judge will pretty soon, what was this woman thinking.

295
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Speaker 1: Is this some mental illness, mental breakdown or was this

296
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Speaker 1: pre planned and now she's executing it?

297
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Speaker 2: Sure? Yeah, and this is where you know of course,

298
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Speaker 2: the interview of Sadie is going to be key.

299
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Speaker 1: She's denying all of it. She said, you're all crazy,

300
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Speaker 1: I haven't done anything, okay, and she will continue to

301
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Speaker 1: deny it throughout all of this. So we don't get

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Speaker 1: anything out of Sadie. Let's get to what Delilah says,

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Speaker 1: which is Delilah says, And just as a reminder, Nelly

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Speaker 1: is the little girl who died. Nellye is ten and

305
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Speaker 1: Delilah is six, So this is a six year old who,

306
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Speaker 1: thank goodness, recovers. It takes a long time, but she

307
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Speaker 1: does recover. So we have a ten year old who's

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Speaker 1: dead and a six year old who I'm sure has

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Speaker 1: injuries that are never going to go away. After this,

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Speaker 1: she says that Sadie grabbed them and held their hands

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Speaker 1: just like the little boy said, took them towards the trestle,

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Speaker 1: which spans Murder Creek. It seemed clear to both girls

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Speaker 1: what she was going to try to do, because she

314
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Speaker 1: starts sort of wrestling with them to try to get

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Speaker 1: them off the bridge. She struggled with both of them,

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Speaker 1: they fought back, but she managed to throw both of

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Speaker 1: them into the creek. Then, of course, Delilah has no

318
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,400
Speaker 1: clue what happened after that. She's got two broken arms,

319
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Speaker 1: two broken legs, and Nellie is dead. So what ends

320
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,240
Speaker 1: up happening is Sadie then goes back to Simon's house,

321
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Speaker 1: the father Delilah's father's house, and Delilah's aunt Hannah was there.

322
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Speaker 1: Sadie had barely walked through the door when she turned

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Speaker 1: around and left again. She then went to a nearby

324
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Speaker 1: much lower bridge which was right behind the father's saloon,

325
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Speaker 1: and she jumped into the water from the bridge. Simon

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Speaker 1: and another guy saw her and yanked her out of

327
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Speaker 1: the water, but she kept screen to put her back in. Now,

328
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Speaker 1: this sounds like a psychological break to me, But I

329
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Speaker 1: don't know. This could be an act.

330
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Speaker 2: It almost sounds like it was an attempt at suicide.

331
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Speaker 2: But was that staging? You know, she has already thrown

332
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Speaker 2: the two little girls off the railroad trestle, and now

333
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Speaker 2: she's jumping into a body of water and trying to

334
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Speaker 2: prevent people from rescuing her. I mean that again, we

335
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Speaker 2: don't know Sadie's internal thoughts. You know, maybe she truly

336
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 2: had such remorse from having what in her mind she

337
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,919
Speaker 2: killed Nellie and Delilah both, and now she's going, I

338
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Speaker 2: can't live with what I've done, or she goes back

339
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Speaker 2: and the father that she's infatuated with doesn't seem to

340
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 2: be giving her the attention she wants, and now she's

341
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 2: going out either truly wanting why bother living, or she

342
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 2: wants attention to herself and is getting that attention by

343
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Speaker 2: this ruse of attempting suicide, or she's setting up an

344
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Speaker 2: defense because she knows she will be the prime suspect

345
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Speaker 2: in what happened to Nelly and Delilah.

346
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Speaker 1: It's very disturbing because you know, as soon as she

347
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,360
Speaker 1: gets pulled out of the water, she is brought in

348
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Speaker 1: by Simon and laid on the couch and she's soaking wet.

349
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Speaker 1: At eight o'clock and this is when Simon Delilah's dad

350
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Speaker 1: say where are Delilah and Nelly? Where did they go?

351
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Speaker 1: And they ask Sadie where the girls went, since she said, hey,

352
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Speaker 1: why don't you guys go on a walk with me?

353
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Speaker 1: And she says, was Delilah with me? And then she

354
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Speaker 1: touches her head and says she wants to know why

355
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 1: her hair is wet, and this sends, of course, you

356
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Speaker 1: can imagine the family's into a panic and that's when

357
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Speaker 1: the search really kicks in and they find the girls

358
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Speaker 1: the next morning. So is this her not remembering if

359
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,719
Speaker 1: this really is some sort of a break or what

360
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Speaker 1: does that represent?

361
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where now it's really trying to evaluate her

362
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 2: psychological state, and part of that evaluation is going to

363
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 2: be taking a look at her behaviors, her actions leading

364
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 2: up to this moment in time. Is she showing proper cognition?

365
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 2: You know? Is she like with the homicide, you know,

366
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Speaker 2: she is purposely leading Nellie and Delilah out to this

367
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 2: railroad trestle that is at a substantial height, Yet she

368
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Speaker 2: herself goes to a much lower bridge to throw herself

369
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Speaker 2: into the river. Why doesn't she go back to the

370
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: railroad trestle? Right? So that's showing, well, she's recognizing possibly

371
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Speaker 2: that that lower bridge is something that she can jump

372
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Speaker 2: off of and survive, And that's telling me, that's informing

373
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Speaker 2: me that she's seeking this out if she was truly

374
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Speaker 2: in a mental break a psychosis. Right now, my question is, well,

375
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Speaker 2: why didn't she just throw herself off off of that

376
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 2: road tressel? After she threw Nelly and Delilah. You know,

377
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Speaker 2: it was this she eliminating these two girls that obviously

378
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 2: get Delilah's father's attention, and she's going, I want all

379
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 2: that attention, and so I'm going to get rid of

380
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 2: these two girls. So now Simon, Delilah's father, all his

381
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 2: attention is focused on me.

382
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: And if you'll remember where that bridge, the small the

383
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: lower bridge is located, it's right behind Simon's saloon.

384
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 2: And he's the one that finds her, right yep.

385
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: It is actually sounds to me like she is setting

386
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: this up for him to rescue her, and then I

387
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: don't know what happens after That's her actions are very confusing,

388
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 1: and I have more details also.

389
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds to me she is trying to seek

390
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: get his attention.

391
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: Well she got it. So let's talk about a potential

392
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: kind of change. I don't know if we want to

393
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 1: call it a trigger. Hannah Brown, who is Simon Brown's sister,

394
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: Delilah's aunt, says, yes, Sadie was being strange that day.

395
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: And she says that day, Sadie had gotten a letter

396
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: at their house because she had just changed jobs not

397
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: too long ago. I guess she was still getting mailed

398
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 1: there at the Browns, Sadie got a letter that she

399
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: found very, very upsetting. It turns out that a made

400
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: from a different household where Sadie had worked in Buffalo

401
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: was accusing Sadie of stealing jewelry, and Sadie was completely

402
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 1: freaked out. What does that connect with the most, the

403
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: premeditated murder aspect of this or the mental break aspect

404
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: of this?

405
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 2: I think at this point I can't say for sure

406
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: if this letter is causing her to have a mental break,

407
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: is something where now it changes circumstances in her life

408
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: where she feels compelled to commit the in her mind,

409
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 2: this double homicide of Nellie and Delilah. For me, it's

410
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: just it's a stressor and that's all I can label

411
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 2: it at right now.

412
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 1: I'm guessing you're right because it sounds like Sadie wrote

413
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: to her aunt on the same day that she threw

414
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: the girls off the bridge, and listen to this letter.

415
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: It sounds like it lines up with what your first

416
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: theory was about. Simon Brown, Dear aunt, when you get this,

417
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 1: I will be far from the earth. I am sick

418
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: and tired of living, and as I told you, my

419
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: last hope is come at last, which means it's gone.

420
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: I am thankful to die. People rebuke me for things

421
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: that I am not guilty of. I'm assuming the theft

422
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: of the jewelry, and as I have no one to

423
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: love me, I can go in peace, my heart. I

424
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: leave an Akron with the one I always spoke to

425
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: you of, as he seems not to care for me.

426
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where here we have Sadie and she

427
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 2: really wants Simon's attention and whether or not this, her

428
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 2: jumping off of the bridge behind his saloon, was truly

429
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: suicide attempt. I mean, this letter to her aunt sounds

430
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: like a suicide letter. I would be evaluating, you know,

431
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: this bridge. Would a person jumping off that bridge expect

432
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: to die or drown, you know, if the water's deep

433
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 2: enough or it was as truly just a ruse to

434
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: make it look like she's attempting suicide. So she gets

435
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 2: Simon's attention, and.

436
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: It's interesting because it sounds to me like it's Simon,

437
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,239
Speaker 1: But there are other theories about who this love is

438
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: that she's talking about. She ends the letter to her

439
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: aunt by saying that she wants to be buried near

440
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: the one that she loves and she signs it your

441
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: no more niece, And so people of course are gleaning

442
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: from this letter that Sadie was in love with Simon Brown.

443
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: But there are other accounts that say she was seeing

444
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: a man in Buffalo and was dismayed when he didn't

445
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: write to her while she was in Akron. And other

446
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: people say that Simon Brown's unmarried brother was involved in

447
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: a romance that she potentially wanted to be involved with. This,

448
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: you know, Simon Brown's unmarried brother, but there's so much

449
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: muk to get through. Other people say Simon was actually

450
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: engaged to Nellie's mom, which would have then made them

451
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: step siblings, which would have been very sweet. So you know,

452
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: all of this is to say that Sadie says, you're

453
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: all nuts. I didn't write this letter. This doesn't look

454
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: like my handwriting. I don't know what you're talking about.

455
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything, you know, and doesn't explain why

456
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: she ended up in the water and jumping off of

457
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: a bridge. She's just denying all of it.

458
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 2: I know there's these other potential love interests, but she's

459
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: killing Nellie and Simon's daughter Delilah. Yeah, they're right. There

460
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: is that relationship focus as far as I'm concerned, And

461
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: so for me, I believe that Simon is the one

462
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: she's writing about in that suicide letter.

463
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: I think that's probably the case too. I mean, she

464
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: chooses to do it then, and also she says to

465
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: her aunt, bury me next to the one I love

466
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: in Akron. If this is a buffalo guy that she's seeing,

467
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense.

468
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: Well, and that kind of struck me too, because you

469
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: know Simon's still alive. How does she know where Simon's

470
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 2: going to be buried? Was she thinking, you know, he

471
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: doesn't love me, so I'm going to take out the

472
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: entire family. Was she planning on killing him?

473
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: Everything about Sadie McMullen is confusing. And then we have

474
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,239
Speaker 1: some medical experts who are really interesting. And actually I

475
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: had been skimming through when you and I were talking.

476
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: I had been skimming through a journal which I read

477
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: entirely too much from the eighteen hundreds, the Journal of

478
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: Nervous and Mental Disease. And when a case pops up

479
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: in this journal, it's for a reason. It's something that

480
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: is interesting that happened with that case. And so I

481
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: think you'll see that coming up because this is sort

482
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: of you know, we will get into a world that

483
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: I had to touch on when I write about the

484
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. But it's still a mystery for me. So

485
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: Sadie said, forget it. You're not penning in this on me.

486
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: I'm pleading not guilty, which she did. She's arigned in January,

487
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: so this is two months after this happens, and Delilah,

488
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: who had survived, was ready to go to court. I mean,

489
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: she the six year old, wanted to see everything that

490
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: was going to happen. As I said, Sadie pleads not

491
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: guilty after this, her lawyer, who is a guy named

492
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: Edward Hayes, tells the press. I don't think anybody can

493
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: entertain doubts as to her insanity, and I don't believe

494
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: any jury will be willing in the face of the

495
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: evidence I will introduce to declare that she plotted and

496
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: executed this deed in a sane moment. So of course

497
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: he's going for an insanity defense here, right, which even

498
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds was a high bar, probably even

499
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: higher than it is today. So she really has to

500
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: demonstrate some things in order for her to be put

501
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: in a mental health institution. Would be the nice way

502
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: of saying it in the eighteen hundreds rather than going

503
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: to prison.

504
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: Sure, and now it's really assessing what I was talking

505
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: about before. Is she's showing steps? Is she taking steps

506
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: that require thought forethought in order to get Nellie and

507
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: Delilah out to that railroad trestle? You know, how is

508
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: she moving through the day to get up to that point.

509
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: That's the interesting thing. You know, she's she's showing some

510
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: agitation at the General's store, but that doesn't mean that

511
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: she's mentally incompetent. She's not knowing what she's doing. You

512
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: know the fact that she's holding Nelly and Delilah's hands

513
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: walking towards the railroad trestle, and we have Delilah's statement

514
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: saying she wrestled and was able to get both of

515
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: them tossed off the trestle. You know, there is a

516
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 2: functioning cognition that appears to be going on with Sadie.

517
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: So I'm right now leaning towards you know, I don't

518
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: think she's you know, in this psychosis, you know where

519
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: she is not knowing what she's doing. She's not knowing

520
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: right from wrong, which is often you know, part of

521
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: the bar that has to be crossed in order to

522
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: say somebody is insane to stand trial. Is they did

523
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: not know what they were doing, was, you know, was wrong.

524
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: She wrote that letter that day to her aunt, right,

525
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: the suicide.

526
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: Letter sounds like it. I think it was received a

527
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: day or two later, though, because I don't believe her

528
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: aunt was in Akron.

529
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: So okay, But Sadie's denying that that she wrote that letter,

530
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: and the handwriting doesn't look like hers, And of course

531
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: I'd be interested in seeing what kind of evaluation was

532
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: done to try to determine who authored that letter.

533
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me set the scene for this, because

534
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: the media, I think does as always play a part

535
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: in here. So the trial begins March fifth, eighteen ninety one,

536
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: and the newspapers describe her as pretty and pale, slender,

537
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: self possessed, and dressed with simple taste, with her luxuriant

538
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: brown hair flowing loosely over her shoulders. Sounds like a

539
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: nice country girl. The way they're describing her, which is,

540
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: you know, that really does play into the sympathy part

541
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: of this, especially when you're pursuing an insanity defense, right.

542
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: Well, for sure, you know, and she as a defendant

543
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: is a sympathetic figure. She doesn't look like the boogeyman, right,

544
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 2: you know, So of course that's going to make it

545
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: harder for the prosecution to be able to convince a

546
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: you know, members of the jury that she is capable

547
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: of this horrible crime.

548
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: So the trial goes on. Dahlilah does not testify, thank goodness,

549
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: but she is there and wants to see all of it.

550
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: Her father, Simon does testify, and this again goes to

551
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: your suspicion, which I think is right, that this is

552
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: the man that Sadie was focused on. Plus the newspapers

553
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: of the eighteen I love the way they wrote. They

554
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: say that when Simon took the stand, Sadie's demeanor changed.

555
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: They describe a polar and a parting of the lips.

556
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: Did she blow him a kiss?

557
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: Maren? I like when Maren says stuff like this. She says,

558
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: they just generally went all in on the idea that

559
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: Sadie is in love with Simon, which I think we

560
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: both believe that Simon is the man. There's too much

561
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: connecting him to this case for it to not be

562
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: Simon is the main focus here.

563
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And does Simon testify about his interactions with Sadie

564
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: that day.

565
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: No, I mean he describes yanking her out of the water. Yeah,

566
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: and the fact that she sounded really odd, you know,

567
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: like why is my hair wet? Is Delilah actually with me?

568
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: But he was not talking about her acting oddly throughout

569
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: the day, just that part, I think, because she was

570
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: occupying the girls. He I'm sure was doing man stuff,

571
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: nineteenth century man stuff. You know, he was, what do

572
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: you need to know? What that is? My chopping wood

573
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: killing grizzly bears.

574
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 2: No, that was just a funny way to put it.

575
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: But yeah, I know what you mean.

576
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: He was not hanging out in the parlor watching her

577
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: play parlor games with him. I think so the first

578
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: interaction I'm assuming really he had because it sounded like

579
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: her behavior was sort of evolving over the day. Maybe

580
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: she made some kind of a decision in her mind,

581
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: and then that's what happened. Let me tell you the

582
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: stakes just real quick, and then you can give me

583
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: any further thoughts you have. If she is considered sane

584
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: and she's convicted, she will be the first woman ever

585
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: to be executed in the electric chair, oh, which had

586
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: been just introduced to New York two months earlier, and

587
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: let me tell you, things did not go well with

588
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: the electric chair for the first couple of years. It

589
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 1: was not a good situation. So there is a lot

590
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: riding on this trial for Sadie McMullen.

591
00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 2: No, for sure, she most certainly must have been informed. Hey,

592
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: you know, you're looking at a death sentence and this

593
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 2: is the way that the state is now executing. So

594
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: I could see where the stakes are very high, you know.

595
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: Just still, I'm very curious when Sadie got back into town,

596
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: you know, I'd be very curious to know what kinds

597
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: of interactions Simon and Sadie had. Is there a possible

598
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 2: precipitating event where Simon ignored Sadie or scolded her something

599
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 2: like that, you know which now she's taking that out

600
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: on Nellie and Elilah.

601
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: It could be, I mean, she was a nanny. It

602
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: could be that he just assumed she was going to

603
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: hang out with the kids and he didn't need to

604
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: spend time with her. If the rumor is true that

605
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: he and Eliza, who was Nellie's mom, were actually involved,

606
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: Now Eliza said that's not true. She told the corner

607
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: of that. But if it is true, it doesn't really matter, right,

608
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: if it was true, it just matters, matters what Sadie thinks.

609
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 2: It's within the offender's perception, always is, there's the facts,

610
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: but how does the offender, No, how does the offender feel?

611
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: What does the offender perceive? Are the facts? You know?

612
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 2: That's the critical thing?

613
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: Well, hang on tight, because we're about to take a

614
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: pretty big left turn here with this case. So we

615
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: need to talk about Sadie because people do talk about

616
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: her background here and it's important. So she had a

617
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: very sad, difficult wife before she wound up an akron.

618
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: She was born in Chicago. Her parents were described as

619
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: austere and ill tempered. Her father was probably an alcoholic.

620
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: Her mother died when she was young. Now this is

621
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: in your wheelhouse. Purportedly she died of fright after an

622
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: encounter with a bear? Is that a heart attack? Right?

623
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: That's not funny. Your poor wife's and your dog's experience

624
00:36:59,160 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: with a bear.

625
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 2: Well, I've had my encounters with bears too, But so okay,

626
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: So how old was mom when she had the encounter

627
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: with the bear?

628
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 1: That you know? We don't know? It just said mom.

629
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: Her mother died when she was young, so I would

630
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: guess the mom's probably pretty young. I mean, you can't

631
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: even think forties, I would.

632
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: Guess so, but Sadie's young. So now you know, it

633
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 2: tells me a little bit about her upbringing. She doesn't

634
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: have that maternal figure after a certain young age, whatever

635
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: age that was. Father sounds like maybe abusive, you know.

636
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: So this is part of that, you know, the formative aspect. Now,

637
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: you know, we've seen I mean it's like the Netflix

638
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: show mind Hunter, right, that study of serial predators. You know,

639
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: I've got the academic texts, you know, sexual homicide patters

640
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: and motives. You know, that's part of what they were

641
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: looking at was the family dynamics in these offenders upbringing.

642
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 2: And they saw sort of this kind of pattern, you know,

643
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: the overbearing mother, the abusive father. But it's like many

644
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 2: people have that in their upbringing and don't become killers, right,

645
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: you know. So, but it's just something of course that

646
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: on one hand is like, Okay, so Sadie possibly has

647
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: some antisocial behaviors that resulted from her upbringing. But at

648
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 2: the same time, the defense could use that and say, well,

649
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: look at poor Sadie, you know, because of the way

650
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: she was brought up. This is why she has this

651
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: mental issue.

652
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: I think what the defense is really going to hit

653
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: on is what happens next. So her father sounds terrible.

654
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: She pretty much ran the household. And remember this is

655
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: all happening present day when she's seventeen. This is not

656
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: an older woman, She's a teenager. Her dad worked a

657
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: lot of jobs around the Midwest, and when she was twelve,

658
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: they went from Missouri to Akron, New York, mostly on foot,

659
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: so they spent a lot of nice sleeping outside. And

660
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: this is sort of the beginning of when Sadie started

661
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: having seizures. And everybody confirms she had seizures where she

662
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,919
Speaker 1: would have spells of quote losing time. The defense put

663
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: a neurologist on the stand, William Krause. He had examined

664
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: Sadie a couple of days after the murder she was

665
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: in jail, and he says it is epilepsy, which was

666
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: considered a mental illness in the eighteen hundreds. And at

667
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: the trial he reads aloud this paper that he had

668
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 1: written which detailed Sadie's childhood and this condition. He says

669
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: that in some forms of epilepsy, a person can be

670
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: in a state of what he calls double consciousness for

671
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: days at a time. This is a state where he

672
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: thinks Sadie was when she killed Nelly and tried to

673
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: kill Delilah. So Kraus says that she was acting automatically

674
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: without real consciousness of what she was doing. He says,

675
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: it's really common with people with a specific form form

676
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: of epilepsy. And in this state, you know, a person

677
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't have any memories of these kinds of past events,

678
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 1: so automatic, you know, this is just something she did

679
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: in a fog. Have you heard of this before?

680
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, this is this is a new one for me.

681
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: She enters in this I guess mental zone that epileptics

682
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: can sometimes involuntarily go and then purposely take two young girls,

683
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: buy the hand out to a railroad trestle, throw them off,

684
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: go back to the house, and then go to a

685
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: bridge and throw that off. Now the memory side, I

686
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 2: don't know, but it sounds like she is still showing

687
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 2: a level of cognitive ability.

688
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: He says. She wrote the letter in an automatic state.

689
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: That's why she wrote in a different sort of hand,

690
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: you know. And I will say, Paul, in one of

691
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: our cases with Oscar Heinrich, where the killer turns out

692
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: to be someone with schizophrenia. He wrote a letter in

693
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: a handwriting that it didn't match the exemplar of the

694
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: man's handwriting. And he also wrote beautifully in one hand

695
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: and did block letters in another, and it was all

696
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: so bizarre, and Heinrich just said he was in a

697
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 1: certain state of mind. It's unpredictable. But Kraus is pretty

698
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: convinced that this is what's going on with her. And

699
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: then we have the dad take the stand and explains

700
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: some really really sad, weird stuff that happened with her

701
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: delusions when she was a kid.

702
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: Uh Like, what kind of delusions?

703
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: Well, okay, let's start with something unpleasant. The family members

704
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: testify that she had a history of singing in her sleep,

705
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: which is not the unpleasant part. There is a family

706
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 1: history of what they call hereditary sin and morbid propensities

707
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: that spring from congenital marriage. They say that Sadie's grandparents

708
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: were first cousins and this caused some big genetic issues

709
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: down the line. Is that even an argument in any

710
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: way today?

711
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: Well, we know when you have close relatives have kids

712
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: have offspring, they have a higher they have higher risk

713
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 2: for some genetic conditions. For sure, you know, and I'm

714
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: sure some of these genetic conditions could potentially result in,

715
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: you know, different types of behaviors.

716
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you what the dad says, and

717
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: we're going to couch this by saying, this is her dad.

718
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: He was a crappy dad, and we don't know what

719
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: he's trying to do if he's trying to save her

720
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: on the stand, I mean, lord knows how many families

721
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: have tried to do that. Sure, but if we believe him,

722
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: he is the one with the very most amount of

723
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: context to her mental health going back years. So Sadie's

724
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: dad says that her mom before she died of fright

725
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: had bad spells, which probably just means, you know, some

726
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: mental health issues, and talks about her having been frightened

727
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: to death with that encounter with the bear, and Sadie

728
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: saw that the encounter. She eventually will talk about that

729
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: that that was one of the times when she felt like,

730
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: you know, she remembered it, but it was one of

731
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: the more traumatizing times in her life. He said that

732
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 1: her first epileptic seizure had been when she was a

733
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 1: small child in Chicago and she had seen some dogs

734
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: attacking some rats, and that was traumatizing. He said. Over

735
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: the years, Sadie sometimes threatened to drown herself, and he

736
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: said she would show up at home soaking wet, and

737
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: she was clueless about where she was. He said this

738
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: was a thing for her. She takes the stand and

739
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: she says, of course, I was absolutely traumatized by seeing

740
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,479
Speaker 1: my mom die of fright when there's a bear there.

741
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: She also talks about some of the other delusions that

742
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: she had from childhood. One that was a little disturbing too,

743
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: was that she had a delusion that she was growing

744
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: uncontrollably bigger. She couldn't stop growing. She said, I have

745
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: zero memory from what happened on the thirty first. The

746
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 1: last thing I remember is leaving the store without butter,

747
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: and then the next thing is I'm on the couch

748
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 1: soaking wet in Simon's house. She doesn't remember writing the letter.

749
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: And the prosecutor just essentially said, you know, here are

750
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: the events. Do you remember each one? And she says, no,

751
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: to the events that happened on October thirty first, And

752
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: that is the summary of the trial. You've got the

753
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: dad saying she has this history, and she's saying, I

754
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: don't remember anything, and then the prosecutor is just kind

755
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 1: of confirming she doesn't know anything. So it's an interesting

756
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:27,479
Speaker 1: trial three days long.

757
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And of course she's talking about or

758
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: the defense is putting on her history, right, trying to

759
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: show she has this in her past. But you have

760
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: to show her mental state at the time of the crime,

761
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: you know. And this is where I go back to

762
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: my argument based on her actions. Is this somebody who

763
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 2: looks like they are moving through the world without any

764
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: type of conscious thought, or does this look like somebody

765
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: who is moving towards committing this homicide and is demonstrating

766
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: that type of cognitive thought. That's where I'm really struggling

767
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: with this idea that she was mentally insane at the

768
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: time she committed this homicide. I think she's showing the

769
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: necessary wherewithal in order to be able to get those

770
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 2: two girls out to the railroad trestle. She's probably not

771
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 2: tossing them off the trestle at the same time, she

772
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: has to toss one off and then get the other

773
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 2: one off, you know, so she's having to do purposeful acts. Now,

774
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: whether or not she remembers, it's interesting that she doesn't

775
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 2: remember committing these homicides. But then I've got cases in

776
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: which the offenders who we know committed the homicides. That's

777
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 2: what they say in their interview. I remember meeting the woman,

778
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 2: but I don't remember killing her. You know, it's this

779
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:01,479
Speaker 2: minimizing right. They may kind of give statements showing that, yeah,

780
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 2: you'd say that these are admissions to committing the crime,

781
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 2: but they just coincidentally can't remember the actual act of

782
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: committing the crime. And that's where, Okay, you know, in

783
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 2: most of those instances, I think they're lying. With Sadie,

784
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 2: I think she's possibly lying, you know, but I'm a

785
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: little bit unsure. But I right now I think, no,

786
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 2: you know what, she hasn't reached the bar from my

787
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 2: perspective where she's mentally incompetent to stand trial.

788
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: Well, she reached the bar for the jury in her case.

789
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: Three day trial, they find her not guilty due to insanity.

790
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: She is committed to the Buffalo State Hospital and she

791
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: is there for three years under the care of doctor Kraus,

792
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: who wrote this wonderful, really in depth piece who said

793
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: she is not responsible. She has epilepsy, she has seizures,

794
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: she doesn't remember things, I can tell you that I've

795
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: examined her, I'm treating her. She's discharged after three years.

796
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: We don't know really what happens to her after that.

797
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: There are some newspaper reports that say, listen to this.

798
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: That's say she got married right after being discharged. Okay,

799
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: Doctor Kraus, the man who went to bat for her,

800
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: you know, who treated her for three years, when he

801
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: found out that she got married right after she was discharged,

802
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 1: he said, I don't think this is a very good idea.

803
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: I don't think that was a good idea at all

804
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: for her to do that.

805
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: Gosh, is she going to go back into this unconscious

806
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: zone and kill somebody else? Right?

807
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: And you know, when it's all said and done, you're

808
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 1: looking at a little girl who I'm sure has extensive injuries.

809
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: I'm broken arms and broken legs, and how those would

810
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: have been treated in eighteen ninety. I'm sure she would

811
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: have had problems walking or doing multiple things, you know,

812
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: or doing anything over her lifetime. And then Nellie who

813
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: was dead. Just so much what happens with the mind

814
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: and what we believe and what we learned over the

815
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: decades and the centuries about the way the mind works.

816
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: It's still so mysterious, and it's like a case by

817
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: case basis, you know, if you read articles about Aaron

818
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: Hernandez and why he committed his crimes and doesn't have

819
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: to do with football, and with the multiple injuries, and

820
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: there's just so much out there. Sure that I'm sure

821
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 1: it's confusing to juries, but I'm sure that this jury

822
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: looked at this pretty young petitue girl with a history

823
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: of seizures, whether her dad is telling the truth or not,

824
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: and the man in the three piece suit who is

825
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: a neurologist saying this isn't her fault and said she

826
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't be executed because that was really their only other choice.

827
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: There was probably no in between.

828
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: Well, and I think it's I mean, she's seventeen, you know,

829
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: so during this era, it sounds like they didn't differentiate

830
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 2: her as a juvenile versus adult for trial purposes. Now,

831
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: so she was tried as an adult. I also think,

832
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: I mean, she's a teenager, and we know the teenage

833
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 2: brains are still forming, right, you know, and some of

834
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 2: the actions, you know, my suspicion is is that she

835
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 2: she was heartbroken because she's recognizing that she probably would

836
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 2: never be able to have her love Simon. She wants

837
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 2: his attention. Maybe she has angst against Nelly and Delilah,

838
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: you know, or in her mind, you know, she wants

839
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: to eliminate the girls that are competing for Simon's attention.

840
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 2: You know, I kind of go towards that, you know,

841
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 2: this is I'm looking at this more from a traditional

842
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 2: What would Sadie's motive be to commit, you know, to

843
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: kill Nellie and Delilah. Yeah, the mental competency side again,

844
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: the mind is fascinating, The brain is fascinating, and I'm

845
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 2: sure there's going to be so many psychiatrists and psychologists

846
00:49:54,840 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 2: that have studied this epileptic state over the last you know,

847
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 2: what is it now, the century, one hundred and thirty

848
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: years since this case happened, you know, And maybe there

849
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: is a pattern there that I've never heard of, you know,

850
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,439
Speaker 2: And I most early in my case work, I've never

851
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 2: run across a case in which this was something that

852
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 2: was being offered as a defense.

853
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I know that her neurologists thought getting married

854
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: was not a great idea, So you know, I wish

855
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: we knew what happened a little bit more. And I

856
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: certainly wish we knew a little bit more what happened

857
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: with the Brown family and with Nelly's family, because it's

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00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: such a sad ending. But I am always interested in

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00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: messy cases, and this was a messy case. We've had

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00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 1: cases where we have killers that are just bastards and

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00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: it's straightforward and we're just kind of looking at motive

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00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: and criminal profiling and we know what's happening. This is

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00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: a little bit different, you know, and the law and

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00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: how we prosecute people and you know, put people in prison,

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00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,399
Speaker 1: how long, where they go, how they get treated, has

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00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 1: so much nuance and I think it's important to talk

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Speaker 1: about all of that. So thank you for going on

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00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: the journey to eighteen ninety, dipping into the eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: just so briefly, and then we'll pop back out another time.

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00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 2: No, really appreciate it as alwaysy. You did a great

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00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: job talking about the case and telling the story. So

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00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to the next one.

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00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:19,959
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.

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00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

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00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,959
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our.

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00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: Sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com, slash

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00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: Buried Bones sources.

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00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

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00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

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00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

885
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:56,760
Speaker 1: Bared Bones pod.

886
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

887
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

888
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

889
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

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00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now