WEBVTT - Judge Orders Pence to Testify 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:14.319 I believe, in the fullness of time, history hold Donald 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:18.320 Trump accountable, and Mike Pennce might be part of that history. 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.680 As for the first time, a former vice president is 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:26.440 being compelled to give potentially damaging testimony against the president 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:30.240 he once served. A judge has ordered pens to testify 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:34.760 before the federal grand jury investigating efforts by former President 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.040 Donald Trump and his allies to overturn the results of 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.640 the twenty twenty election. Pence vowed last month to fight 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:44.560 the Special Council's subpoena all the way to the US 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.320 Supreme Court, but on Wednesday said he hadn't made a 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.880 decision yet unwhether to appeal the order. We'll be speaking 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.440 with our attorneys in Washington before the end of the 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:58.520 week and sorting out what our next steps are. I 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:02.800 obviously have nothing to hide. I've been speaking about those days, 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:06.520 writing about them extensively over the last two years. But 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:08.880 for me, it was important that we stand on that 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:13.000 constitutional principle. My guest is Victoria North, a professor at 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.840 Georgetown Law School who formerly served as chief counsel to 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.639 then Vice President Joe Biden. Pence had raised a novel 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.720 challenge to the subpoena based on the speech or debate clause. 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:28.959 Tell us about that challenge. The Constitution's speech and debate 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.480 clause says that you cannot be questioned for anything you 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.640 say while you're in Congress. So it protects members of 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.560 the House or the Senate from being arrested because they 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.600 said something terrible, which is what happened in marry Old 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.920 England and France before. Actually they tried to do this 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.160 to some expense at the beginning of our constitutional history. 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.200 But the idea was that you didn't want anyone like 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.000 a king, questioning someone for what they said, because it 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.960 would inhibit them. It would chill their speech about what 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.320 was important. So if the Parliament wanted to say something 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:00.760 bad about the king, then the king gage just go 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.720 arrest them, and so on our constitution. We wanted to 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:06.840 distance ourselves from that practice, and so he said the 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.639 members cannot be prosecuted for anything they say while they 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.360 are members. Now, Vice President Pence is arguing that he 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.520 was the President of the Senate at the time of 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.200 the electoral count, and therefore that is a legislative role 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.559 for the Vice president the unique role under the Constitution, 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.679 and he is arguing that given that he was performing 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.560 that unique role, anything that he said during that period 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:34.560 should not be used in any other prosecution. And the 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:39.120 Speech and Debate Clause does provide very broad support for 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:44.920 members regarding the use of their statements in other criminal prosecutions. Nevertheless, 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:49.080 you know, not all of his statements were actually regarding 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.040 what the Electoral count Act was doing, and that will 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.440 matter and the ultimate determination about what he testifies to 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.680 the judge did recognize the Speech and Debate Clause applies 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.680 to the Vice president when he's acting as President of 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.359 the Senate, so Pence won't have to answer questions relating 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.880 to that. Yes, because you got to look at the 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.120 facts of what was going on here. You know, I 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.480 was a commentator on the January sixth hearing because I'm 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.280 an expert in Congress. Then if you watch the hearings, 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.760 you'll see that the Vice president was ushered out of 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:22.240 his tiding place in the Senate. They went down to 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.799 what I think is a basement and he was in 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.320 his car. I've worked for a vice president, so you 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:29.880 know the mini piast with his secret service, and there 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:31.919 were pictures of them there. There were pictures of them 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.440 exiting the Senate. So during the process of what was 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.480 going on, he was not actually operating, in my view, 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:42.320 in a legislative capacity when he was fleeing the insurrection. 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.760 So there are things that the judge knows about various 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.360 conversations that you know, he made that I'm sure the 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.800 prosecutor suggested were made. I'm sure they have phone records, etc. 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.480 From the National Archives, because those are presidential records. Whatever 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.120 he phones on his official phone, showing that he made 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:01.360 various phone calls. But those phone calls weren't necessarily in 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.760 the conduct of legislative business. So he's probably calling people 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:08.400 from and this entirely speculation on my part, but about 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.680 the insurrection. He wants to know where are the forces. 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.440 He may have called the president, and that might cause 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.800 another objection. But not all of his activity was in 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.600 the conduct of legislative purposes. You know, he wasn't calling 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:24.840 anyone to order. He wasn't standing there with the gavel. 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.919 He wasn't answering objections, which is what the vice president 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.080 does in the House and the Clentate. He wasn't acting 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:32.440 in a legislative role for a good part of that time, 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.720 which I'd assumed the prosecutor is very interested in. Why, 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.640 because the prosecutor wants to know what the thought processes 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:41.920 were of the president at the time when he did 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:46.160 not act to quell the insurrection. So let's say that 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.320 there is a call came in from the president or 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.279 he called the president and said, what's going on here? 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:55.800 You know, why aren't you sending forces here? Etc. Etc. 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:01.520 Would he have to testify to that call? Well, that depends. Okay, 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:04.640 so there's also a claim of executive privilege that he 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:06.799 might make. But you know, that's been further into a crime, 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:10.360 a conspiracy to obstruct an electoral proceeding, so the electoral 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.080 counting that is an official proceeding, and there are various 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.880 charges now being made again participants in the insurrection. And 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.080 if you agree to something like that, and you may 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.400 take a substantial step or any act toward it, really 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.839 you're guilty of a conspiracy, and executive privilege is not 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.200 applied to crime. So that's really what's going to go on. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.520 If there's a specific phone call to the president. I 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.560 think the prosecutor also doesn't necessarily want that. If I 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:39.119 were Pence and I'm just again speculation, and I'm sitting 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.880 there in the basement, I'm assuming it's a basement with 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:43.960 my secret Service and my daughter and a few other 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:46.800 friends whoever was in with him. I'm worried for my 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:48.880 own life, and I'm worried for my country. I'm not 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.520 necessarily calling someone who had told me also to bad 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:55.560 things on a phone earlier. But I think that they 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.839 had divided on this issue quite sharply in the weeks before, 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.120 and he had Council take their position, and he was 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.400 firm and what he was going to do. He wasn't 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:09.360 going to invoke the twelfth Amendments and violate the statute 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.039 and all of the things he would have had to 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.039 do to change the electoral count. And given that, I 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.000 expect that you would see him calling, you know, perhaps 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.160 COD or you know, assuming the role of the president, 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.160 which is what I vice President is trained to do, 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:27.040 which is in the emergency, they take control. And you know, 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.640 I mean Patriot would call the DOT or the National 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.400 Guard or I mean everybody else was Nancy Pelosi was 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.560 calling when the Virginia governor was on the line with 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.880 somebody else and Murray Ol Bowser. So I would assume 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:42.800 that he made those kinds of calls, and that those 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.200 kinds of calls, since they're not in the course of 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.440 his official duties as President of the Senate, are things 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.360 that he could testify to. But I assume that what 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.800 the Special Council is interested in is his calls with 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.960 the president, yeah, or the president's aids, and some of 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.320 them have already been directed. Mark Meadows has already been 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.200 directed to testify because of the relationship to a crime. Okay, 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.560 So ordinarily a vice president cannot be compelled to testify 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.400 about his conversations with the president because of this notion 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.000 that there's an executive privilege around the close people to 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:16.760 the president that can be overcome in a court of 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.320 law if there's a special need for it. But it 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:21.680 also can be overcome, and this was the Nixon case. 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.680 It's not absolute. There's never an absolute executive privilege, just 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.520 particularly not an absolute privilege when there's a crime. I mean, 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.400 it disappears so and this was the case with Nixon, 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.480 who ordered a burglary. Right, We're in a similar situation here, 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.800 which is to say that perhaps Pens called Meadows, in 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.000 which case that would be relevant. Meadows himself I think 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.640 is going to testify again to what happened in those 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:48.160 conversations or other people the Secret Service that might be relevant, 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.720 And you know, we don't know, but I assume that 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:53.480 what's going on here is the same thing that's gone 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:55.920 on with some of these other claims of executive privilege, 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:59.480 which during the impeachment, which I wrote a book about 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:04.239 for law students, were wildly exaggerated. I mean, the Nixon 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.560 case is the only case we really have, but it 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:09.280 is clearer on one thing. If the president is implicated 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.760 in a crime, right he has to testify. And that's 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.520 why Nixon released the tape, because the Watergate burglars demanded 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.440 that they be handed over, and the Supreme Court of 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.640 the United States said yes, because for the pursuit of justice, 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:24.920 you're going to send these people away to jail. The 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.600 president is not above the law. They reaffirmed that in 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.520 Clinton on his impeachment. Even though this court is not 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:36.040 exactly has changed dramatically. I don't see them as undermining 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.280 that very basic principle that executive privilege, or even the 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.520 speech and debate clause goes away when there's a crime. 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:43.440 And as I say, most of what they're interested in 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.520 is not, in my view, not statements that were made 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.079 during the official proceeding, but perhaps before and after. As 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:56.600 far as executive privilege, Trump's legal team separately made objections 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.280 to the subpoena on executive privilege grounds, and the judge 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:06.079 completely rejected those. Can Penn still make executive privileged claims 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.880 in response to specific questions, he can try that. It'll 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:12.880 basically be eliminated, as I said, because it's associated with crime, 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.000 and that's already been litigated in the Meadow state. So 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.280 if it's related to a crime, there is no executive privilege. 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:23.160 The president doesn't have a privilege to commit a crime 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:25.439 against the government. This is a crime, not just a 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.080 burglary like an ordinary crime. This is a crime to 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.680 halt the proceedings of the United States and electing a 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.640 president during January sixth. So it's a very serious crime. 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.120 And you know it's a court ordered Nixon to release 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.720 his case. I don't see why the court wouldn't find 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:44.480 that as controlling President Pence, you know, has spoken extensively 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:48.400 about Trump's pressure campaign to get him to try to 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:52.280 reject the electoral count, and even a book, I would 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.600 have thought that there was sort of a waiver of 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.520 any kind of claim because he's already spoken so much 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.000 about it. Well, waiver relays to the specific time and 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:06.080 the specific content, so they could argue that other things 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.600 that he said, let's say, when he was in the basement, 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:11.240 which he hasn't revealed as far as I know, I 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:12.880 haven't read that book, so you'll have to correct me 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.920 if I'm don't read that book either. Okay, So you know, 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.200 the only reason he's raising the privileges he doesn't want 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.000 to testify, and which is interesting. I mean to me, 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.200 if I were him, i'd just go in there and testify. Now, 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.720 obviously some people have had some interest in you know, 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.760 some lawyers have said, well, I my client is the institution, 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.880 and you know he doesn't want to pit vice presidents 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:38.880 against president. That's true. Vice president should feel very free 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.480 to give of all people, forget about the staff, you know, 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.960 of all people, clear statements to the president, and they 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:48.160 shouldn't be open in my view. But this is a crime. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.319 That's the big difference here. So let's say that a 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.640 vice president told the president, oh, well, you know, I 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.640 think the court is going to strike that down. My 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.720 lawyers are telling me that well, you don't want that 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:00.440 revealed because it looks like they're undivided. I did about 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.440 their litigation strategy, right, but no one really knows. They're 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:08.040 just hypothesizing. So that's certainly fair game to keep within 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.920 the confines of executive privilege and the vice president's dissenting 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.079 role in the administration, which is to say no. Spiden 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.080 always wanted to be the last person in the room 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.160 with President Obama because he wanted to say, look, the 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:22.120 staff is telling you X, Y and Z, and I'm 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.800 telling you, based on my experience for thirty years in Watchington, 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:26.880 that's not going to happen. And that seems to me 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.559 something that is important of all of the staff privileges 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.360 for executive privilege. But we don't know the precise statements 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.040 of the prosecutors looking for I expect it's during the 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:41.080 time when the former occupant of the office did nothing 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:45.280 to quell the insurrection, sat watching the television. According to 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.480 the J six hearing, he's going to want to know 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.680 what Pence was talking about. And if he hasn't said 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:55.480 those openly and hasn't said anything about those particular conversations, 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:57.760 then he hasn't weighed the privilege. The thing is that 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.560 the privilege is just not applicable because he's not operating 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.720 in a legislative capacity. And even if he were operating 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.520 in an executive capacity and advising the president, he can't 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.280 do that one. It's concerning a crime. When he'd filed 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.480 the objection to the subpoena, he said that he would 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.160 take this to the Supreme Court. Now he's saying they're 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.760 sorting it out and reviewing whether or not they're going 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.400 to appeal. Do you think an appeal to the Supreme 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:30.880 Court would be advantageous to him? It would certainly delay things. Well, 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.280 if delays in his interests, he can do it. I mean, 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.079 it would be interesting to see what they would say 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.800 about this. You know, if delays and his interest people 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.400 do it, and he might help to get one or 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.439 two justices. It's interesting. The court's a new ballgame right now. 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.080 And you know, I'm out here talking to law professors 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.400 about how new it is because I decided to read 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:51.120 all three hundred of the opinions as they issued in 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.160 twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. You did, Yeah, I 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:58.079 have a new website for Georgetown. We're tracking all their decisions. 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.920 And they've changed a lot, and they're in the process 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:06.120 of changing more this term, so that increases uncertainty. And 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.440 whenever there's uncertainty in the law, that's a full employment 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.600 bill for lawyers, which is to say, oh, well, maybe 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.640 they won't follow the Nixon case. They have departed occasionally 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.280 for him, not always. You know, he might peel off 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.520 a justice or two because I think it's pretty clear. 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.520 I think the reason that the appellate Court is not 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.120 wavering is because the Nixon case is pretty darn clear. 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.120 There is one exception to all of this, and it 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.640 is a crime to conspire to overthrow the electoral count. 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.240 And there's really no two ways about that. And I 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.200 think that they've been very inventive at legal arguments. I 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.640 don't see the court wanting to take the case to 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.839 tell you the truth, so they might just not take it. 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.320 But you could get a dissent from say a Justice Thomas, 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.920 who dissented in a couple of the Trump cases. It's 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.280 just a delaying maneuver. I think. I don't think they'll 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:52.760 want because they're going to do lots of big deals. 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.480 You know, they're going to overturn affirmative action. They've got 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.400 all these gun cases where there's a massive amount of 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.040 uncertainty in the state. It's about who can own a 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.240 gun and who can't own a gun, and that's real 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.800 on the ground, right, So they've got things they have 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.720 to decide this term. I don't think they'll want to 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.440 decide it, and so then it's a waste of lawyer's money. Really, 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.040 there's not much delay involved in denying a certain petition. 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.640 The Special Counsel it seems to keep winning these cases, 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.560 getting people to testify at the grand jury who don't 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.840 want to. How big a victory is this particular subpoena 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.880 for Mike Pence. Well, a victory for pens or a 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.400 victory for them? Oh, well, tell me which side. I 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.160 thought it was a victory for the Special Council. But 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.320 you know who's a victory for this. It is a 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:39.960 victory for the Special Council. And I think it shows 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.360 that the rule of law, when the rule is clear applied, 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:43.960 you know, I mean, this is the rule of lay 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.600 is a treasured cultural commodity of the United States. If 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.960 you go to other countries that are full of baksheishan, 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:54.440 you know, kleptocracy, you realize that this is in our DNA, 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.440 And I don't think any judge to tell you the truth, 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.640 the Trump judge or not what you know on this 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:00.920 kind of a thing to be on the wrong side 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.600 of history, because this is about history and it's about 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.280 the future governance of our country. Whether Trump is indicted 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.680 or not, he can still run for presidents. Now. I 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:11.560 think it was a labor leader who was sent to 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.000 prison and he ran for president and got one hundreds 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.960 of thousands of votes. And other members have gone to 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.560 prison and run for the House. There's no prohibition on that. 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.160 But I do think it's still affect how history treats 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.280 what happened on January sixth. And they've seen enough in 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.520 the DC third, they've seen enough of these defendants, and 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.280 they're pretty much familiar with the kinds of defenses and 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.000 they're not very good defenses. And I think they've seen 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.560 enough not to be particularly sympathetic. Now, if you knew 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.360 the law, you would expect that, you know, if you 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:42.240 knew the Nixon case, there there's only one a case 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.080 like you got to be a super expert to understand 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.120 that you cannot the president cannot conspire to commit a crime. 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:51.800 And if like Nixon, he aids, and it bets that 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.600 that then his testimony is relevant. So I would have 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.320 said that Jack Smith would win, and I think I 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:02.200 did at some point. But I think people think that 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.680 the laws up for grabs now because there's so much 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:09.520 uncertainty in general, not just about not about this particular doctrine. 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.600 The speech and debate clause also adds another wrinkle, because 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.520 that's if you're an expert in that, you think, oh, well, 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:17.920 maybe it could apply. There's all sorts of reasons why 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.080 you think it might apply, but it's just the facts 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:21.960 that show you it doesn't. Because he's in the basement 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.040 and he's not performing as legislative duties, that could be 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.640 that wrinkle. And it's just the court has been doing 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.800 things in general that makes people nervous about the rule 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.000 of law. So they wonder whether Trump judges are going 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.280 to give him a break. They wonder whether, you know, 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.320 the law has somehow changed, And so I think it's 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.360 you know, these judges are really in an interesting place 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:48.400 today because they are worried, and that general uncertainty is 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:50.880 what it has prompted Pence to be able to make 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.320 these kinds of claims. So it didn't surprise me that 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.080 Jack Smith would win. He also knows more than we know, 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.640 so he knows the phone calls, he knows what other 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.960 people have testified to that we don't know, and some 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.840 of it may be particularly damning. I doubt it's in 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:11.720 a book that Pence wrote. I think if these conversations 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.919 that he already knows one side of the conversation from 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:18.320 somebody else, and that person called Pence, that's relevant and 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:20.840 I think they wanted to try, you know, for probably 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:25.400 know it was some political gesture to be somewhat solicitous 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.479 of the president, But as a ruling from a judge 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.280 on this particular case at this particular time, it doesn't 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.399 surprise me. Well, we'll find out in the coming days 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:39.399 whether Pence will decide to appeal this ruling. Thanks so 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.960 much for your insights. That's Professor Victoria Norris of Georgetown 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:47.880 Law School. The US has taken its most forceful move 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:52.080 yet to crack down on crypto exchange Binance Holdings and 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:56.680 its chief executive officer, Chang Pen Chao. The Commodities Futures 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.800 Trading Commission alleged in federal court in Chicago that Binance 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:05.199 and it's CEO routinely broke American derivatives rules as the 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.960 firm grew to be the world's largest trading platform. Joining 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:13.040 me a securities law expert, Anthony Sabino of Sabino and Sabino. 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.840 He's also a professor of law at Saint John's University. 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.960 So Anthony, what is the CFTC charging Binance and it's 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.520 CEO with well June. It's a pleasure to be on 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:25.440 with you today. And I have to say my very 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.560 first impression, and a very strong one, it is, is 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.959 the massive allegations made here, the massive tome that has 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.680 been filed by the CFTC. I mean that both quantitatively 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.879 and qualitatively. First of all, this complaint filed by the 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:43.680 Commodity's Futures Training Commission against Champenzau, Binance, etc. And also 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:48.040 their compliance officer Samuel Limm, or more properly former compliance officer, 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:51.960 is simply massive. It's seventy four pages. And that's significant 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:55.080 because if you look at it when the SEC file 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.320 it's civil complaint against FTX, that was only about twenty 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.240 eight pages. The entire criminal complaint, and I mean the 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.359 superseding indictments again, Samuel Benkman freed bowed by the Department 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.520 of Justice here in New York US Attorney so the 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.560 district that was less than a dozen pages. So the 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.840 mere quantity pages tells you a lot. Secondly, in terms 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:19.000 of quality, this again reflects a very in depth investigation 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:23.159 here with the most serious of allegations. And what struck 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:27.080 me is this the Commission knows specifically many times that 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.920 there has been, as they caresorize it, a lack of cooperation, 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.720 a lack of forwardness, of openness with Binance. But yet 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:35.880 if you look towards the latter half of the complaint, 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.679 there are very detailed allegations apparently based upon transactions with 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.640 certain trading firms, and the trading companies are not named 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:46.119 per se, but they called trading from ab etc. And 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:49.200 one can only surmise. And again I admit this is 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:51.679 a guest, but I would hope it educated guests. Is 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:55.280 that that information was revealed to the CFTC by virtue 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.159 of the Commission going after these trading partners account holders 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.760 with Binance, who basically will probably front was a choice 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.800 aid to cooperate fully with CFTC or be implicated yourselves. 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:06.879 And I think it's fairly clear that they got a 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.879 lot of information from outside sources, but in addition to that, 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.200 they still a substantial amount of information that came from 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.760 within Banance, although it was probably extracted with a great 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.960 deal of difficulty. But essentially what the Commission is looking 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.719 for here is at the very end okay, the werefol 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.080 closers were called. The bottom yfe of the commission is this. 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.960 They want to very much put Banans out of business 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.679 within the United States, Okay. They want an injunction to 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.480 shut them down for the US operation. They want to 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.240 scorgement of all profits that finance is made, which allegedly 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.160 open the many millions of dollars. They want a restitution 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.919 for customers, and they basically want to make sure that 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:48.639 Banan as presently constituted, cannot do business in the crypto 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.920 space at all in the United States of America. So 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.040 these are very severe allegations. And again, given the very 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:57.320 international scope is painted so well by the sea of 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.840 seeing the complaints, Banance might very well, okay, continue to 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.280 do business in other parts of the world. But if 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.760 this comes to its ultimate conclusion the way the CFTC 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.280 wants it, all right, they will be absolutely forbidden from 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:12.680 doing business or let me rephrase, legally doing business within 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.320 the United States of America and with the importantly American customers. 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.720 So let me understand something. Is Bonance allowed to trade 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.920 in the United States now or with US customers? Isn't 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.800 that forbidden? That's correct, okay, and that's the crux of 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:31.240