1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: I believe, in the fullness of time, history hold Donald 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: Trump accountable, and Mike Pennce might be part of that history. 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: As for the first time, a former vice president is 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: being compelled to give potentially damaging testimony against the president 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: he once served. A judge has ordered pens to testify 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: before the federal grand jury investigating efforts by former President 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and his allies to overturn the results of 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty election. Pence vowed last month to fight 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: the Special Council's subpoena all the way to the US 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, but on Wednesday said he hadn't made a 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: decision yet unwhether to appeal the order. We'll be speaking 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: with our attorneys in Washington before the end of the 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: week and sorting out what our next steps are. I 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: obviously have nothing to hide. I've been speaking about those days, 16 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: writing about them extensively over the last two years. But 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: for me, it was important that we stand on that 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: constitutional principle. My guest is Victoria North, a professor at 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: Georgetown Law School who formerly served as chief counsel to 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,639 Speaker 1: then Vice President Joe Biden. Pence had raised a novel 21 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: challenge to the subpoena based on the speech or debate clause. 22 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: Tell us about that challenge. The Constitution's speech and debate 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: clause says that you cannot be questioned for anything you 24 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: say while you're in Congress. So it protects members of 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: the House or the Senate from being arrested because they 26 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: said something terrible, which is what happened in marry Old 27 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: England and France before. Actually they tried to do this 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: to some expense at the beginning of our constitutional history. 29 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: But the idea was that you didn't want anyone like 30 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: a king, questioning someone for what they said, because it 31 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: would inhibit them. It would chill their speech about what 32 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: was important. So if the Parliament wanted to say something 33 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: bad about the king, then the king gage just go 34 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: arrest them, and so on our constitution. We wanted to 35 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: distance ourselves from that practice, and so he said the 36 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: members cannot be prosecuted for anything they say while they 37 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: are members. Now, Vice President Pence is arguing that he 38 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: was the President of the Senate at the time of 39 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: the electoral count, and therefore that is a legislative role 40 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,559 Speaker 1: for the Vice president the unique role under the Constitution, 41 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: and he is arguing that given that he was performing 42 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: that unique role, anything that he said during that period 43 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: should not be used in any other prosecution. And the 44 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: Speech and Debate Clause does provide very broad support for 45 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: members regarding the use of their statements in other criminal prosecutions. Nevertheless, 46 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, not all of his statements were actually regarding 47 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: what the Electoral count Act was doing, and that will 48 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: matter and the ultimate determination about what he testifies to 49 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: the judge did recognize the Speech and Debate Clause applies 50 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: to the Vice president when he's acting as President of 51 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: the Senate, so Pence won't have to answer questions relating 52 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: to that. Yes, because you got to look at the 53 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: facts of what was going on here. You know, I 54 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: was a commentator on the January sixth hearing because I'm 55 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: an expert in Congress. Then if you watch the hearings, 56 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: you'll see that the Vice president was ushered out of 57 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: his tiding place in the Senate. They went down to 58 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 1: what I think is a basement and he was in 59 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: his car. I've worked for a vice president, so you 60 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: know the mini piast with his secret service, and there 61 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: were pictures of them there. There were pictures of them 62 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: exiting the Senate. So during the process of what was 63 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: going on, he was not actually operating, in my view, 64 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: in a legislative capacity when he was fleeing the insurrection. 65 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: So there are things that the judge knows about various 66 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: conversations that you know, he made that I'm sure the 67 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: prosecutor suggested were made. I'm sure they have phone records, etc. 68 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: From the National Archives, because those are presidential records. Whatever 69 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: he phones on his official phone, showing that he made 70 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: various phone calls. But those phone calls weren't necessarily in 71 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: the conduct of legislative business. So he's probably calling people 72 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: from and this entirely speculation on my part, but about 73 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: the insurrection. He wants to know where are the forces. 74 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: He may have called the president, and that might cause 75 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: another objection. But not all of his activity was in 76 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: the conduct of legislative purposes. You know, he wasn't calling 77 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: anyone to order. He wasn't standing there with the gavel. 78 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: He wasn't answering objections, which is what the vice president 79 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: does in the House and the Clentate. He wasn't acting 80 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: in a legislative role for a good part of that time, 81 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: which I'd assumed the prosecutor is very interested in. Why, 82 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: because the prosecutor wants to know what the thought processes 83 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: were of the president at the time when he did 84 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: not act to quell the insurrection. So let's say that 85 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: there is a call came in from the president or 86 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: he called the president and said, what's going on here? 87 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: You know, why aren't you sending forces here? Etc. Etc. 88 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: Would he have to testify to that call? Well, that depends. Okay, 89 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: so there's also a claim of executive privilege that he 90 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:06,799 Speaker 1: might make. But you know, that's been further into a crime, 91 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: a conspiracy to obstruct an electoral proceeding, so the electoral 92 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: counting that is an official proceeding, and there are various 93 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: charges now being made again participants in the insurrection. And 94 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: if you agree to something like that, and you may 95 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: take a substantial step or any act toward it, really 96 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: you're guilty of a conspiracy, and executive privilege is not 97 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: applied to crime. So that's really what's going to go on. 98 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: If there's a specific phone call to the president. I 99 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: think the prosecutor also doesn't necessarily want that. If I 100 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 1: were Pence and I'm just again speculation, and I'm sitting 101 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: there in the basement, I'm assuming it's a basement with 102 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: my secret Service and my daughter and a few other 103 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: friends whoever was in with him. I'm worried for my 104 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: own life, and I'm worried for my country. I'm not 105 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: necessarily calling someone who had told me also to bad 106 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: things on a phone earlier. But I think that they 107 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: had divided on this issue quite sharply in the weeks before, 108 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: and he had Council take their position, and he was 109 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: firm and what he was going to do. He wasn't 110 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: going to invoke the twelfth Amendments and violate the statute 111 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: and all of the things he would have had to 112 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: do to change the electoral count. And given that, I 113 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: expect that you would see him calling, you know, perhaps 114 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: COD or you know, assuming the role of the president, 115 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: which is what I vice President is trained to do, 116 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: which is in the emergency, they take control. And you know, 117 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: I mean Patriot would call the DOT or the National 118 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: Guard or I mean everybody else was Nancy Pelosi was 119 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: calling when the Virginia governor was on the line with 120 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: somebody else and Murray Ol Bowser. So I would assume 121 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: that he made those kinds of calls, and that those 122 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: kinds of calls, since they're not in the course of 123 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: his official duties as President of the Senate, are things 124 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: that he could testify to. But I assume that what 125 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: the Special Council is interested in is his calls with 126 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: the president, yeah, or the president's aids, and some of 127 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: them have already been directed. Mark Meadows has already been 128 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: directed to testify because of the relationship to a crime. Okay, 129 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: So ordinarily a vice president cannot be compelled to testify 130 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: about his conversations with the president because of this notion 131 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: that there's an executive privilege around the close people to 132 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: the president that can be overcome in a court of 133 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: law if there's a special need for it. But it 134 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: also can be overcome, and this was the Nixon case. 135 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: It's not absolute. There's never an absolute executive privilege, just 136 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: particularly not an absolute privilege when there's a crime. I mean, 137 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: it disappears so and this was the case with Nixon, 138 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: who ordered a burglary. Right, We're in a similar situation here, 139 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: which is to say that perhaps Pens called Meadows, in 140 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: which case that would be relevant. Meadows himself I think 141 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: is going to testify again to what happened in those 142 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: conversations or other people the Secret Service that might be relevant, 143 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: And you know, we don't know, but I assume that 144 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: what's going on here is the same thing that's gone 145 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: on with some of these other claims of executive privilege, 146 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: which during the impeachment, which I wrote a book about 147 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:04,239 Speaker 1: for law students, were wildly exaggerated. I mean, the Nixon 148 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: case is the only case we really have, but it 149 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: is clearer on one thing. If the president is implicated 150 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: in a crime, right he has to testify. And that's 151 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: why Nixon released the tape, because the Watergate burglars demanded 152 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: that they be handed over, and the Supreme Court of 153 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: the United States said yes, because for the pursuit of justice, 154 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: you're going to send these people away to jail. The 155 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: president is not above the law. They reaffirmed that in 156 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: Clinton on his impeachment. Even though this court is not 157 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: exactly has changed dramatically. I don't see them as undermining 158 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: that very basic principle that executive privilege, or even the 159 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: speech and debate clause goes away when there's a crime. 160 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: And as I say, most of what they're interested in 161 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: is not, in my view, not statements that were made 162 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: during the official proceeding, but perhaps before and after. As 163 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: far as executive privilege, Trump's legal team separately made objections 164 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: to the subpoena on executive privilege grounds, and the judge 165 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: completely rejected those. Can Penn still make executive privileged claims 166 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: in response to specific questions, he can try that. It'll 167 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: basically be eliminated, as I said, because it's associated with crime, 168 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: and that's already been litigated in the Meadow state. So 169 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: if it's related to a crime, there is no executive privilege. 170 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: The president doesn't have a privilege to commit a crime 171 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: against the government. This is a crime, not just a 172 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: burglary like an ordinary crime. This is a crime to 173 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: halt the proceedings of the United States and electing a 174 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: president during January sixth. So it's a very serious crime. 175 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: And you know it's a court ordered Nixon to release 176 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: his case. I don't see why the court wouldn't find 177 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: that as controlling President Pence, you know, has spoken extensively 178 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: about Trump's pressure campaign to get him to try to 179 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: reject the electoral count, and even a book, I would 180 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: have thought that there was sort of a waiver of 181 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: any kind of claim because he's already spoken so much 182 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: about it. Well, waiver relays to the specific time and 183 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: the specific content, so they could argue that other things 184 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: that he said, let's say, when he was in the basement, 185 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: which he hasn't revealed as far as I know, I 186 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: haven't read that book, so you'll have to correct me 187 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: if I'm don't read that book either. Okay, So you know, 188 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: the only reason he's raising the privileges he doesn't want 189 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: to testify, and which is interesting. I mean to me, 190 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: if I were him, i'd just go in there and testify. Now, 191 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: obviously some people have had some interest in you know, 192 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: some lawyers have said, well, I my client is the institution, 193 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: and you know he doesn't want to pit vice presidents 194 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: against president. That's true. Vice president should feel very free 195 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: to give of all people, forget about the staff, you know, 196 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: of all people, clear statements to the president, and they 197 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: shouldn't be open in my view. But this is a crime. 198 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: That's the big difference here. So let's say that a 199 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: vice president told the president, oh, well, you know, I 200 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: think the court is going to strike that down. My 201 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: lawyers are telling me that well, you don't want that 202 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: revealed because it looks like they're undivided. I did about 203 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: their litigation strategy, right, but no one really knows. They're 204 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: just hypothesizing. So that's certainly fair game to keep within 205 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: the confines of executive privilege and the vice president's dissenting 206 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: role in the administration, which is to say no. Spiden 207 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: always wanted to be the last person in the room 208 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: with President Obama because he wanted to say, look, the 209 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: staff is telling you X, Y and Z, and I'm 210 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: telling you, based on my experience for thirty years in Watchington, 211 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: that's not going to happen. And that seems to me 212 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: something that is important of all of the staff privileges 213 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: for executive privilege. But we don't know the precise statements 214 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: of the prosecutors looking for I expect it's during the 215 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: time when the former occupant of the office did nothing 216 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: to quell the insurrection, sat watching the television. According to 217 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: the J six hearing, he's going to want to know 218 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: what Pence was talking about. And if he hasn't said 219 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: those openly and hasn't said anything about those particular conversations, 220 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: then he hasn't weighed the privilege. The thing is that 221 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: the privilege is just not applicable because he's not operating 222 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: in a legislative capacity. And even if he were operating 223 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: in an executive capacity and advising the president, he can't 224 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: do that one. It's concerning a crime. When he'd filed 225 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: the objection to the subpoena, he said that he would 226 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: take this to the Supreme Court. Now he's saying they're 227 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: sorting it out and reviewing whether or not they're going 228 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: to appeal. Do you think an appeal to the Supreme 229 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: Court would be advantageous to him? It would certainly delay things. Well, 230 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: if delays in his interests, he can do it. I mean, 231 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: it would be interesting to see what they would say 232 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: about this. You know, if delays and his interest people 233 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: do it, and he might help to get one or 234 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: two justices. It's interesting. The court's a new ballgame right now. 235 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm out here talking to law professors 236 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: about how new it is because I decided to read 237 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: all three hundred of the opinions as they issued in 238 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. You did, Yeah, I 239 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: have a new website for Georgetown. We're tracking all their decisions. 240 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: And they've changed a lot, and they're in the process 241 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: of changing more this term, so that increases uncertainty. And 242 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: whenever there's uncertainty in the law, that's a full employment 243 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: bill for lawyers, which is to say, oh, well, maybe 244 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: they won't follow the Nixon case. They have departed occasionally 245 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: for him, not always. You know, he might peel off 246 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: a justice or two because I think it's pretty clear. 247 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: I think the reason that the appellate Court is not 248 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: wavering is because the Nixon case is pretty darn clear. 249 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: There is one exception to all of this, and it 250 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: is a crime to conspire to overthrow the electoral count. 251 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: And there's really no two ways about that. And I 252 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: think that they've been very inventive at legal arguments. I 253 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: don't see the court wanting to take the case to 254 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: tell you the truth, so they might just not take it. 255 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: But you could get a dissent from say a Justice Thomas, 256 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: who dissented in a couple of the Trump cases. It's 257 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: just a delaying maneuver. I think. I don't think they'll 258 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: want because they're going to do lots of big deals. 259 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: You know, they're going to overturn affirmative action. They've got 260 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: all these gun cases where there's a massive amount of 261 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: uncertainty in the state. It's about who can own a 262 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: gun and who can't own a gun, and that's real 263 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: on the ground, right, So they've got things they have 264 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: to decide this term. I don't think they'll want to 265 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: decide it, and so then it's a waste of lawyer's money. Really, 266 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: there's not much delay involved in denying a certain petition. 267 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: The Special Counsel it seems to keep winning these cases, 268 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: getting people to testify at the grand jury who don't 269 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: want to. How big a victory is this particular subpoena 270 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: for Mike Pence. Well, a victory for pens or a 271 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: victory for them? Oh, well, tell me which side. I 272 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: thought it was a victory for the Special Council. But 273 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: you know who's a victory for this. It is a 274 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: victory for the Special Council. And I think it shows 275 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: that the rule of law, when the rule is clear applied, 276 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, this is the rule of lay 277 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: is a treasured cultural commodity of the United States. If 278 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: you go to other countries that are full of baksheishan, 279 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: you know, kleptocracy, you realize that this is in our DNA, 280 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: And I don't think any judge to tell you the truth, 281 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: the Trump judge or not what you know on this 282 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: kind of a thing to be on the wrong side 283 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: of history, because this is about history and it's about 284 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: the future governance of our country. Whether Trump is indicted 285 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: or not, he can still run for presidents. Now. I 286 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: think it was a labor leader who was sent to 287 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: prison and he ran for president and got one hundreds 288 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: of thousands of votes. And other members have gone to 289 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: prison and run for the House. There's no prohibition on that. 290 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: But I do think it's still affect how history treats 291 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: what happened on January sixth. And they've seen enough in 292 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: the DC third, they've seen enough of these defendants, and 293 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: they're pretty much familiar with the kinds of defenses and 294 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: they're not very good defenses. And I think they've seen 295 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: enough not to be particularly sympathetic. Now, if you knew 296 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: the law, you would expect that, you know, if you 297 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: knew the Nixon case, there there's only one a case 298 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: like you got to be a super expert to understand 299 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: that you cannot the president cannot conspire to commit a crime. 300 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: And if like Nixon, he aids, and it bets that 301 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: that then his testimony is relevant. So I would have 302 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: said that Jack Smith would win, and I think I 303 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: did at some point. But I think people think that 304 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: the laws up for grabs now because there's so much 305 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: uncertainty in general, not just about not about this particular doctrine. 306 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: The speech and debate clause also adds another wrinkle, because 307 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: that's if you're an expert in that, you think, oh, well, 308 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: maybe it could apply. There's all sorts of reasons why 309 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: you think it might apply, but it's just the facts 310 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: that show you it doesn't. Because he's in the basement 311 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: and he's not performing as legislative duties, that could be 312 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: that wrinkle. And it's just the court has been doing 313 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: things in general that makes people nervous about the rule 314 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: of law. So they wonder whether Trump judges are going 315 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: to give him a break. They wonder whether, you know, 316 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: the law has somehow changed, And so I think it's 317 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: you know, these judges are really in an interesting place 318 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: today because they are worried, and that general uncertainty is 319 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: what it has prompted Pence to be able to make 320 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: these kinds of claims. So it didn't surprise me that 321 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: Jack Smith would win. He also knows more than we know, 322 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: so he knows the phone calls, he knows what other 323 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: people have testified to that we don't know, and some 324 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: of it may be particularly damning. I doubt it's in 325 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: a book that Pence wrote. I think if these conversations 326 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: that he already knows one side of the conversation from 327 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: somebody else, and that person called Pence, that's relevant and 328 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: I think they wanted to try, you know, for probably 329 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: know it was some political gesture to be somewhat solicitous 330 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 1: of the president, But as a ruling from a judge 331 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: on this particular case at this particular time, it doesn't 332 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: surprise me. Well, we'll find out in the coming days 333 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: whether Pence will decide to appeal this ruling. Thanks so 334 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: much for your insights. That's Professor Victoria Norris of Georgetown 335 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: Law School. The US has taken its most forceful move 336 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: yet to crack down on crypto exchange Binance Holdings and 337 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: its chief executive officer, Chang Pen Chao. The Commodities Futures 338 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: Trading Commission alleged in federal court in Chicago that Binance 339 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: and it's CEO routinely broke American derivatives rules as the 340 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: firm grew to be the world's largest trading platform. Joining 341 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: me a securities law expert, Anthony Sabino of Sabino and Sabino. 342 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: He's also a professor of law at Saint John's University. 343 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: So Anthony, what is the CFTC charging Binance and it's 344 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: CEO with well June. It's a pleasure to be on 345 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: with you today. And I have to say my very 346 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: first impression, and a very strong one, it is, is 347 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 1: the massive allegations made here, the massive tome that has 348 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: been filed by the CFTC. I mean that both quantitatively 349 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: and qualitatively. First of all, this complaint filed by the 350 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: Commodity's Futures Training Commission against Champenzau, Binance, etc. And also 351 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: their compliance officer Samuel Limm, or more properly former compliance officer, 352 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: is simply massive. It's seventy four pages. And that's significant 353 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: because if you look at it when the SEC file 354 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: it's civil complaint against FTX, that was only about twenty 355 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: eight pages. The entire criminal complaint, and I mean the 356 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: superseding indictments again, Samuel Benkman freed bowed by the Department 357 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: of Justice here in New York US Attorney so the 358 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: district that was less than a dozen pages. So the 359 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: mere quantity pages tells you a lot. Secondly, in terms 360 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: of quality, this again reflects a very in depth investigation 361 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: here with the most serious of allegations. And what struck 362 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: me is this the Commission knows specifically many times that 363 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: there has been, as they caresorize it, a lack of cooperation, 364 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: a lack of forwardness, of openness with Binance. But yet 365 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: if you look towards the latter half of the complaint, 366 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: there are very detailed allegations apparently based upon transactions with 367 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: certain trading firms, and the trading companies are not named 368 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: per se, but they called trading from ab etc. And 369 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: one can only surmise. And again I admit this is 370 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: a guest, but I would hope it educated guests. Is 371 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: that that information was revealed to the CFTC by virtue 372 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: of the Commission going after these trading partners account holders 373 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: with Binance, who basically will probably front was a choice 374 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: aid to cooperate fully with CFTC or be implicated yourselves. 375 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: And I think it's fairly clear that they got a 376 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: lot of information from outside sources, but in addition to that, 377 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: they still a substantial amount of information that came from 378 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: within Banance, although it was probably extracted with a great 379 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: deal of difficulty. But essentially what the Commission is looking 380 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: for here is at the very end okay, the werefol 381 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: closers were called. The bottom yfe of the commission is this. 382 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: They want to very much put Banans out of business 383 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: within the United States, Okay. They want an injunction to 384 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: shut them down for the US operation. They want to 385 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: scorgement of all profits that finance is made, which allegedly 386 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: open the many millions of dollars. They want a restitution 387 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: for customers, and they basically want to make sure that 388 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: Banan as presently constituted, cannot do business in the crypto 389 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: space at all in the United States of America. So 390 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: these are very severe allegations. And again, given the very 391 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: international scope is painted so well by the sea of 392 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: seeing the complaints, Banance might very well, okay, continue to 393 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: do business in other parts of the world. But if 394 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: this comes to its ultimate conclusion the way the CFTC 395 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: wants it, all right, they will be absolutely forbidden from 396 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: doing business or let me rephrase, legally doing business within 397 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: the United States of America and with the importantly American customers. 398 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: So let me understand something. Is Bonance allowed to trade 399 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: in the United States now or with US customers? Isn't 400 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: that forbidden? That's correct, okay, and that's the crux of 401 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: the complaints. Nance is unregistered with the Commodities Troops Trading Commission. Okay, 402 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 1: they have not filed and not maybe appropriate regulatory filings registration. 403 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: They have not complied with American law, with federal law 404 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: that regulates commodities and encrypto he views the commodity here. 405 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: So their transaction, if any United States with American based 406 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: customers are absolutely illegal. But the crux of the complaint 407 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: here from is well, you aren't registered, they're not authored 408 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: through business in the US, but you've done it anyway, 409 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: which is why we now want to take steps to 410 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: utterly bar you from the United States. You've been doing 411 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: business here you're not supposed to. So a let's get 412 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: you out of the United States. Let's exclude you, okay, 413 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: let's exalt you forever from our shores. But also to 414 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: make sure you get out and stay out, we want 415 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: massive financial penalties. So in essence by property from these 416 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: violations of doing business in American when you're not registered, license, 417 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: et cetera. We want to get all that money back 418 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: and essens to make sure that crime does not pay 419 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: in this participal expence. So binance, is it finance or binance? 420 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: I always say finance, But okay, I think it's finance. 421 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: I think it's fine. I have to you know, I 422 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: thought I knew, and they were talking about it and 423 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: I've forgotten. Okay, So anyway, finance finance. That's the way 424 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: Finance said. Okay, So Finance said, We've made significant investments 425 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: over the past two years to ensure we do not 426 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: have US users active on our platform. But the CFTC 427 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: said that Finance's own documents for the month of August 428 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: twenty twenty showed the platform earn sixty three million fees 429 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: from derivatives transactions, and then about sixteen percent of its 430 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: accounts were identified as being held by US customers. Also, 431 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: the complaint quoted text messages from the CEO, So it 432 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: seems like the CFTC has evidence. Yes, And again one 433 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: has to wonder where that Evans has come from. One 434 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: for the moment, I would assume that the FFTC is 435 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: active within the law, so I'm not going to question 436 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: the resting of these allegations. And again let me praise 437 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: it this way, these allegations, and we have to remember 438 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: their allegations. It doesn't become fact or truth unless proven 439 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: in the court of law, if indeed that they e 440 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: becomes Nevertheless, just as allegations, these are the damning set 441 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: of accusations share because what they're saying is we have 442 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: this literal amount of evence And again this is why 443 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: the mass of this complaint, Okay, the ship both of 444 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: it at seventy four pages is amazing because again they 445 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: quote text messages, emails, all these other chat wounds stuff 446 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: directly coming from this to zang okay sometimes referred to 447 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: with CZ the CEO and also the former CHIE compliance officer, 448 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: mister Samuel Lynn, where basically they think that they are 449 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: doing this Nance States with the most customers. Now, you 450 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: mentioned and well said that the nance's position has been well, 451 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, we've instituted compliance programs, et cetera. However, the 452 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: CFTC has fairly stridently said, okay, you've told us your compliant. 453 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: But the truth of the matter is what you say 454 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: and what the reality is are It's completely different. Okay, 455 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: you claim to have compliance programs in but you don't. 456 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: And furthermore, even though okay, your claims were following the law, 457 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: you still have never registered with US, so you're still 458 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: not authorized under the Commodity Exchange Act the CPA. And 459 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: the bottom line is so without that registration and so forth, 460 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: without filing accurate reports your truth. Also what I found, 461 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: and I have to use the word stunning here. I 462 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: don't need to be melodramatic, but I was stunned by 463 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: this is the allegations and again their allocations. They're not 464 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: the truth yet, but it's alleged that, among other things, 465 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: financed deliberately and willfully okay, and especially with Missus Dao 466 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: as the CEO, and the company self deliberately and willfully 467 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: sought to disguise American customers US based customers so they 468 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: would not appear to be from the US. They apparently 469 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: had a category of what they called the v I 470 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: P customers, whatever that means, but it also means that 471 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: they essentially engaged in to be frank a subterfuge to 472 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: shall we stay in or otherwise hints to US based entities. Look, okay, 473 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: we can't do business with you as US based entity, 474 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: but you should essentially disguise your identity. And now they 475 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: get into all the lingual of VPN's virtual protocol network 476 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: wherever it is, okay, but that the virtual address, but 477 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: basically hiding their identities. And also something that again if true, 478 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: is quite dam in itself, is the allegation where the 479 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,959 Speaker 1: HTC says that again you mentioned the sixteen percent, that's 480 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: very significant because when you're talking sixteen percent of billions 481 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: of dollars in trades, that's a lot of money. That 482 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: is significant business. And it's been allege that on their 483 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: various financial disclosures for lack of the better term, pie charts, 484 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: et cetera, as we find again literally pie charts and 485 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: grifts in the complaint that US based business US based customers. 486 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: It's allows they deliberately obfuscated that by changing instead of 487 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: US or USA put it under UNK and I don't 488 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: mean United Kingdom UNK as an unknown. So there are 489 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: again numerous allegations of all these artifices, all these devices 490 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: where Banan knew they were dealing with parties in the 491 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: United States, knew they weren't supposed to be transacted business 492 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: for them, and they did it anyway. And then even 493 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: as a subset but still damming allegations, they talk about 494 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: the extension of margin trading leverage okay, which apparently BANCE 495 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: encouraged amongst all customers, but also particularly with US based customers. 496 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: And again that's something that's also extremely regulated. You and I, 497 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: and you're sophisticated audience knows that if you're buying stocks 498 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: on margin, okay, that's highly regulated by the SAC. The 499 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: same essential principle applies to buy commodities, including crypto and 500 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: addrivatives of crypto on the commodities exchanges. And since they 501 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: did not comply at all with the rules regarding reporting leverage, etcetera, etcetera, Okay, 502 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: that's a serious allegation. And once again it just gets worse. 503 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: It goes from the fine pain as the fire. There's 504 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: the allegations, not dissimilar to what we saw against FPX, 505 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: that there were violation lack of compliance with the anti 506 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: money laundry laws that AMLS has been known that basically 507 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: are in place to make sure that terrorist organizations, criminal 508 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: organizations are not transacting business are otherwise on the securities 509 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: in commodities markets, things that have to be tracked to 510 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: deter criminal or terroristic behavior. And again Banance is way 511 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: out of compliance with that because they simply don't have 512 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: any methodology in place. Now. Banance certainly says the opposite. 513 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: I believe one of their other high ranking executives is 514 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: quoted in the complaint of saying, only yet, but we've 515 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: been working on this for years and we've done thustin 516 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 1: soone they can progress, and we're going to continue to 517 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: do so. But in essence, the retort from the commission 518 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: it is, that's what you said, but that's not what 519 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: you're doing. So you're out of compliance and you're not 520 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: even trying. You say you've got something, but your controls 521 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: are inconsequential, ineffective, and we said we don't biased if 522 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: you know what, we gave you a chance. You haven't 523 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: fixed it, all right, So if you can't fix it, 524 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: you're out. Okay, we want to borrow you from the 525 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: US forever. And once again, I think one of the 526 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: most troublesome things you're hearing is the fact that these 527 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: folks have allegedly been doing business in the US when 528 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: they're not supposed to when they're unregistered, where they don't 529 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: full reports, where they don't fall in the rules. But 530 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: yet they've done it anyway, so they're already not supposed 531 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: to be here. So in terms of like excluding them, 532 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: it literally is the Commission, by virtue of injunctions, decrees, 533 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: monetary penalties, they're speaking to expel the nance, if you will, 534 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: from the US markets forever and ever. Do you see 535 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: this the lawsuit being an attempt by the CFTC to 536 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: assert its authority over the crypto trading world while it's 537 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: in something of a petition with the Securities and Exchange 538 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: Commission over crypto Unequivocally, yes, I'm not faulding the CFTC 539 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: for following their statutory duty to police the commodities market, 540 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: but there is definitely an element of competition with the SEC, 541 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: if you will. In fact, at one point to complaint 542 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: there's sub mention of icos Ico's initial corn offers. Now 543 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: in more recent years, especially as Gary Densler has moved 544 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: from CFTC chairman to SEC chairman, he said, Okay, icos 545 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: are security, so therefore the SEC is going to regulate that. 546 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: But once again, okay, the CFTC also would like to say, well, WAYMNT, 547 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: what is you selling in the Ico. You're selling or 548 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: you maybe selling the commodity that's our territory or turf. 549 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: So definitely there is an element here of CFTC stame Look, 550 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: crypto and crypto derivatives and so on and so forth. 551 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: They are commodities. They're essentially of the same nature as 552 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: you know pork bellies and gray and wheat and gold 553 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: and silver which have always historically been regulated by the 554 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: CFTC for its predecessors, and therefore it's our our sovereign 555 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: duty to regulate that. And again I also know that 556 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: our funds interest me that this case is filed in 557 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: the Northern District, Illinois, in other words, Chicago, and that 558 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense historically because the complaint specifically 559 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: mentions the CBOE Chicago Board of Options and the CME 560 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: Chicago Mercantile Exchange, because basically for all of American history, 561 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: Chicago has been the heart of the commodities market in America. Again, 562 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: that's not the Nine Mexican with the former Nine Mexican 563 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: in New York. But the bottom line is, when there 564 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: is wrongdoing in the stock market, the government goes to 565 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: where the stock market is found Wall Street. So that's 566 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: why those actions for example FTX and S and SBS 567 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: Damon Backman freed, those will venue in the southern New York. 568 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: But when you talk about commodities, the heart range of 569 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: commodities is literally the American heart random that West Chicago. 570 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: So that's why the CFTC filed there. Have no doubt 571 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: not to mention the fact that the judges both at 572 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: the District court level Northern District in Chicago and the 573 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals which sits in Chicago, they 574 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: have enormous six piece with respect to the Commodities Exchange 575 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: Act and enforcing those laws, in interdicating those cases and 576 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: so forth. So essentially, not only is sticking out its 577 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: own territory, making sure is being assertive with respect to 578 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: commodities regulation, of which they say Crypto is a part of, 579 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: They're also going to what in many ways is their 580 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: home court. They're speaking home court advantage by going to 581 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: the court that they are regularly in front of, that 582 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: they know the judges, so on and so forth. But again, 583 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: what you're indicating there, and I quite agree, is the 584 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: fact that this is not the end of it, I 585 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: would not be the least bit surprised to see the 586 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: SEC also step in. And again one hopes that these 587 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: two agencies work collaboratively and not competitively, all right, to 588 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: stored out this mess and basically protect the integrity of 589 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 1: the commodities market. So how does any agency regulate finance 590 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: when the CEO ZAO has even avoided designating a corporate 591 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: headquarters and said wherever he is, that's where the corporate 592 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: headquarters is. So if it's crypto and they're not even 593 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: located in a place, how do you control them? Exactly? Okay, 594 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: And again you highlighted one of the more startling areas 595 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: of the complaints, and I found this absolutely astounding. This 596 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: zoo for example, Okay, his present location is not exactly specified. 597 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: The complaint indicates, okay, a belief that he's currently in 598 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: Dubai in the United Arab emirths. So he's beyond the 599 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: reach of US law enforcements. Okay, As you noted, and 600 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: this is one of the keys to the complaint here 601 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: is that this entity right basically claims to be international 602 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: and it refuses to give an address, and of course 603 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: that is fatal to any attempt to be properly regulated 604 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: and registered in the US as a commodit trading platform, okay, 605 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: as a swap exchange, so on and so forth, because 606 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: you have to provide the most pedestriate information. In other words, 607 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: state this is where we are. Okay, hello, CFTC, this 608 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: is where you can find us. Then you're mail to us. 609 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,239 Speaker 1: If you need to subpoena our records, if you need 610 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: to crash our party and these our records, this is 611 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: where you're going to find us. We need a physical location. 612 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: So the fact that Banan refuses and apparently works very hard, 613 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: it is very assiduous at working at making sure you 614 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: can't find them. I think that speaks very much the 615 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: fact that they're trying to evade the long arm of 616 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: the law. Okay, and certainly with respect to mister Zao, 617 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: I who have no expectation that this gentleman will ever 618 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: ever spend five minutes in front of a US judge 619 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: of before, because he's simply beyond our reach. That leads 620 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: to very practical problem okay, of then how do you 621 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: regulate these guys? I think the purpose of this complaint, 622 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: among other things, is not just to enforce the law. 623 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: Okay again, astudents allegations have proven true against mister Lynn 624 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: Performance CEO, CCO compliance officer, against mister zao Is CEO, 625 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: and against the entity itself. It's not just to basically 626 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: exclude them exile them from the US. I think it 627 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: also sent a powerful message to anyone who has done 628 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: business with them as an accounts basically based because what 629 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: says to meet you is gif you se say, look, okay, 630 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: we're after Banans. If you've come business with them, you 631 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: are next. If you are have an account with them, 632 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: we can find you because you are US based, and 633 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: we can shut you down. We know who you are, 634 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,919 Speaker 1: we know where you live, okay, and we can shut down. 635 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: And again, even in a global economy that we have today, 636 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: is we all well known We see this every day 637 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: is the fact that money moves globally, but one of 638 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: the places, one of the stops that makes constantly is 639 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: within the US, especially in New York through the money 640 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: main money center banks. So if you go to basically 641 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: shut down Banance in the US, that means they can't 642 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: access cash in the US or any of the kind 643 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: of assets. They can't transact any business here, and certainly 644 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: right now. If I was at any any bank, be 645 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: it Major Mind or anywhere on the spectrum between, the 646 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: bottom line would be, hey, okay, make sure we have 647 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: nothing to do with Banance. And if we have a 648 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: customer who's banking with us and they're doing business with Banans, 649 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: we don't want to have these people's customers anymore. We 650 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: don't want to be entangled with this mess, all right. 651 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: So I think it's more a matter of again a 652 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 1: powerful message to commodity treators put go creators, okay, legitimate 653 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: and also maybe you let's call them some up borderline people, 654 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: people in the gray area, basically saying, look, okay, even 655 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: if mister Zoo is in a foreign nation, we can 656 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: get him. We certainly know where you are and we 657 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: can certainly get you. So okay, back off, get away 658 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: from Banan, okay, because that's how we're going to shut 659 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: them down by basically excluding their customer base. Okay, who 660 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: in them off? If you will, fencing them off from 661 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: yours customers, Thanks so much for lending us your expertise. Anthony, 662 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: that's Anthony Sabino of Sabino and Sabino. And that's it 663 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you 664 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg 665 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 666 00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: and at www dot bloomberg dot com, slash podcast slash Law, 667 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 668 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: week night at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June 669 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg