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Speaker 1: Body Bus with Joseph's Gotten More. I think there's just

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Speaker 1: something liberating about traveling through the night in a car.

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Speaker 1: It's got a lot of power. It's at your back

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Speaker 1: and call underneath your foot she pressed down, And it's

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Speaker 1: particularly thrilling if you're riding where the wind is down.

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Speaker 1: You don't care what your hair looks like, you don't

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Speaker 1: care what else is going on in front of you.

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Speaker 1: And if you've got the radio cranked up with your

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Speaker 1: favorite tunes on there, and it's transporting you back, perhaps

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Speaker 1: to someplace that you love and remember. I often think

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Speaker 1: we're where I live has got one particularly stretched road

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Speaker 1: that winds over the top of the mountain that's literally

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Speaker 1: right behind my home. And I remember, even as a

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Speaker 1: young kid coming over that mountain to get to Jack State.

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Speaker 1: I used to have a nineteen seventy forest Green Tudor

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Speaker 1: Monte Carlo. I love that car tunes playing cutting through

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Speaker 1: the night. But you know the thing about being behind

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Speaker 1: the wheel and having all of the stimulation going on,

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Speaker 1: all these good things, suddenly that can change in the

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Speaker 1: twinkling of an eye. It can take us to an

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Speaker 1: absolute place of terror. Today on body backs, I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about a case involved in three people in

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Speaker 1: a beautiful green nineteen sixty seven for fair lane that

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Speaker 1: couldn't quite stay on the road. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: it launched off of a bridge and created one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest mysteries in the history but the state of Kentucky.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start this conversation off by giving you

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Speaker 1: a great, big, old fat thank you. This case, our

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Speaker 1: case is that you dropped on me, brother, is unlike

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Speaker 1: anything else that I think today that we have done

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Speaker 1: on body bags. And I'll go ahead and tell everybody

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Speaker 1: out there that this is not a homicide, all right,

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Speaker 1: but it's every bit the mystery. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about decades, man, decades, a forty.

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Speaker 2: Five year old missing person's case, Joe, that included a

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Speaker 2: World War One war hero.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. When you dropped that knowledge only I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know, did let me ask you something in your

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Speaker 1: young age, do you recall ever meeting a World War

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Speaker 1: One veteran.

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Speaker 2: Joe when we used to go to parades when I

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Speaker 2: was a little kid. Yeah, there would be the Spanish

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Speaker 2: American war guys would lead the pack, you know, on

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Speaker 2: the parade for back then it was called Armistice Day,

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, it was always in it was

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Speaker 2: you know, now it's a not Veterans Day. It's in November.

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Speaker 2: No November anyway, that Veterans Day. Yeah, wait, November in

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Speaker 2: Veterans Day. They've changed that, Okay, just to be really

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Speaker 2: historically correct here, Yeah, it was Armistice Day for a

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Speaker 2: long time because it was the end of World War One,

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Speaker 2: you know, the eleventh month, the eleventh day, the eleventh

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Speaker 2: hour hour, and that's what all that meant, and that's

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Speaker 2: why we do Veterans Day on November eleventh, and going

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Speaker 2: to those parades as a kid when I was very young,

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Speaker 2: and I think about this every now and then, you're

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Speaker 2: talking about like nineteen seventy, you know, I'm a little kid,

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Speaker 2: and we would see there were still men who were

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Speaker 2: alive then they were granted they were ninety, but they

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Speaker 2: were in these before World twenty you know, fifteen years

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Speaker 2: before World War One, you know. And I learned to

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Speaker 2: shoot pool from a guy who actually was too old

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Speaker 2: to serve in World War Two. You know, when you

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Speaker 2: get to that point in life, you look back at

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Speaker 2: this and go, yeah, this guy, this man that we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about today, is one of three people

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Speaker 2: that he had a heroic adventure in World War One

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Speaker 2: as a young man, and he came home without a

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Speaker 2: leg and without emotional strength. He was a shell shocked

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Speaker 2: veteran and was declared incompetent by nineteen thirty two.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that I got a pause you just for a second,

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Speaker 1: because this is something This is a theme that we

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Speaker 1: have hit on before on body bags. Isn't it amazing

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Speaker 1: how maybe this is kind of obvious, but isn't it

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Speaker 1: amazing how one event that occurs in a person's life

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Speaker 1: decades and decades before cannot only impact that individual but

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Speaker 1: that was in the middle of it, but it spreads out.

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Speaker 1: You know. I always talk about throwing throwing a stone

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Speaker 1: into a Placid lake and you see the waves go

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Speaker 1: out that from that moment, and it is like that,

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Speaker 1: And I got to tell you, I think this is

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Speaker 1: this is one of those cases, you know, those events

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Speaker 1: that happened all the way back, know in probably nineteen eighteen,

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Speaker 1: which is when I think our guys showed up or

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Speaker 1: nineteen I'm probably getting nailed by historians in the audience

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Speaker 1: approximating that time. You know that all those decades back, right,

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Speaker 1: it impacts what happened on that August night in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy three.

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Speaker 2: And here we are in twenty twenty four talking about

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Speaker 2: how yesterday this story is in the news. Yesterday, the

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Speaker 2: story that we're talking about today is because a term

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Speaker 2: is being used that Joe and I don't like. It's

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Speaker 2: called closure for family. Yeah, and it may be in

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Speaker 2: one of these things because this did happen a long

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Speaker 2: time ago before any of these individuals had really a

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Speaker 2: personal contact on their living relatives now, but they've been

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Speaker 2: part of history. Think about it. If you have a

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Speaker 2: family member, an aunt and uncle's cousin, what have you,

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Speaker 2: that went missing in nineteen seventy three, would you be

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Speaker 2: talking about them all these years? Like whatever happened to John?

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Speaker 2: You know what, what ever happened to him? I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he was a little crazy, the one legged guy. I

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Speaker 2: mean he was, But where is what happened?

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Speaker 1: I think about it. The adults from back then that

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Speaker 1: would remember this individual, they're actually they're they're leaving us now. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I lament this is

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Speaker 1: my grandparents' generation. I miss I missed the greatest generation

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Speaker 1: right now. I miss those people from that generation. There

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Speaker 1: are very few World War Two veterans, and you know

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Speaker 1: the people that that built you know, built us out,

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Speaker 1: you know, going into the fifties, we're losing all of

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Speaker 1: those people in our history along with them. But you know,

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Speaker 1: you said a mouthful, you know about how and you

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Speaker 1: know you have this this event that there are still

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Speaker 1: people that are around that remember these individuals, and that

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Speaker 1: memory has continued on, you know now all these years later,

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Speaker 1: and how that kind of it's almost like a I

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Speaker 1: don't want to use the ghosts, but it's imprinted onto

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Speaker 1: that family.

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Speaker 2: How do you get past it? When you have this

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Speaker 2: open end there is now this might be the one

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Speaker 2: time the closure fits because there's not closed. This is

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Speaker 2: an open circle. It is not full circle yet. Now

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Speaker 2: we're going to give it to you today and tell

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Speaker 2: you why the family and the extended family why they

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Speaker 2: are excited about finding out what really happened, because, as

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Speaker 2: we mentioned, you don't quick history lesson World War One.

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Speaker 2: For the United States, we didn't get into the war

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Speaker 2: until the end. It was nineteen seventeen before the United

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Speaker 2: States got into the war. The war ended November eleventh,

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen. Okay, but that year and a half we

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Speaker 2: were in it. Yeah, it destroyed a lot of lives.

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Speaker 2: That's why, that's why we were not as aggressive against

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Speaker 2: Hitler in the thirties, because it was like, we saw

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Speaker 2: what happened to the generation that came home, and they

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Speaker 2: they were unwilling to do that again. But you know what,

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Speaker 2: overcoming it and World War two happened, and it lasted

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Speaker 2: longer for us. Think about it. You know, from December seventh,

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty one until August of nineteen forty five. That's

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Speaker 2: a long time compared to a year and a half.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, those guys. Those guys didn't do short tours either.

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Speaker 1: Right when you when you were drafted in, it's like

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Speaker 1: you're going to come home, but this is how you'll

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Speaker 1: come home either deceased, grievously injured, or victory. Right, that's it.

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Speaker 1: That's that's the only choice that you have. Points.

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Speaker 2: They would tell yeah, they had this game. You know,

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Speaker 2: they would get a number of points that they would

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Speaker 2: earn if they did certain things. And they're like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: when you have twenty three points, you go home. And

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Speaker 2: they're like, and that was the joke. Hey, you know,

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Speaker 2: they'd get a new guy, and so I only got

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Speaker 2: to do four more of these and I go home like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I got that two years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know that that goes to this gentleman

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Speaker 1: that's that's operating this vehicle, this fort Fair Lane. You know,

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Speaker 1: you think about you know, obviously it was a young man.

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Speaker 1: You know when he went in, he was fighting age.

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Speaker 1: Think about how hopeless that would be to go and

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Speaker 1: they didn't fly over there. He went over in a

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Speaker 1: boat with a bunch of other guys packed in like

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Speaker 1: sardines and the yeah yeah, and then to get your

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Speaker 1: leg blown off over there. Yeah, I'd say he's wrecked.

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Speaker 1: He's wrecked. And back then we had talked about it.

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Speaker 1: They didn't use the term. They didn't even use the

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Speaker 1: term battle fatigue, which became kind of popularized World War

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Speaker 1: II Korea, that sort of thing. They used term shell shocked.

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Speaker 1: And that's and if you've never seen, and I urge everybody,

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Speaker 1: if you have never seen these video clips of these

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Speaker 1: guys after World War One that they were studying, where

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Speaker 1: these men are habitually shaking and they crawl under tables

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Speaker 1: and they have video of them just sitting there and

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Speaker 1: they have this wild I'd look and how do you

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Speaker 1: treat that? You know, how do you treat these guys?

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Speaker 1: And that's what they were faced with. And this guy

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Speaker 1: comes home. Not only is he damaged mentally, but he's

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Speaker 1: damaged physically. I'm wondering, how in the world would he

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Speaker 1: even be capable of operating a motor vehicle if he's

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Speaker 1: so damaged mentally and he's he's damaged physically, How does

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Speaker 1: that happen?

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Speaker 2: It didn't work out really well for him driving a car. Joe,

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Speaker 2: You and I both were looking at this, and he

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Speaker 2: was not known as a skillful driver. He had had

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Speaker 2: his license taken away. He'd been in a wreck in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three. The guy had so many wrecks they

185
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Speaker 2: took his license from him, but he kept driving. The

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Speaker 2: guy was he's a war hero. He's incompetent, and he's illiterate.

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Speaker 2: You're not going to tell him what to do. And

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Speaker 2: so he decides he's going to this family reunion and

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Speaker 2: he took it. The sister that were with him that day,

190
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Speaker 2: Martha and Flora. Martha and Flora Helmic both went with him,

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Speaker 2: and they were both domestics. I guess is the best

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Speaker 2: way to put it. That was their career. And I

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Speaker 2: have one of them took care of John, mister Kenyon

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Speaker 2: or Keaton rather sorry anyway, they're on their way to

195
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Speaker 2: a family reunion for mister Kennon, and the battle is

196
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Speaker 2: did Keaton drive? Was he driving the car or it

197
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Speaker 2: was one of the women We know that he drove

198
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Speaker 2: even though he didn't have a license yet. And I'm

199
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Speaker 2: thinking that you told me about the Ford Fairlane before

200
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Speaker 2: we started, about it being a man's man kind of car,

201
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Speaker 2: not an early car. No, I'm thinking of the World

202
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Speaker 2: War One veteran with an attitude. He's going to be

203
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Speaker 2: driving that car?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah. And you know the thing. The thing

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Speaker 1: about the fair Lane is that it came in It

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Speaker 1: came in varying degrees of beefiness, if you will, you know,

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Speaker 1: because for Ford back then did not make what we

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Speaker 1: think of as muscle cars so much. He had the Mustang,

209
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Speaker 1: but you know, when it came to muscle, you're thinking

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Speaker 1: a GM product like a Pontiac, you know, or Chevy

211
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Speaker 1: or even with Chrysler. You know, how could you not

212
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Speaker 1: think about like the road Runner, you know, those cars

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 2: Or we could do a whole show, you know, we

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Speaker 2: could create a whole new thing of people who created

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Speaker 2: a body bag out of their muscle car from the sixties.

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Speaker 1: That's what we could do. Yeah, we could, But you

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Speaker 1: know I would digress because I just I'm an admire

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Speaker 1: I don't know enough about them, But boy am I

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Speaker 1: admiring this is this is a this was the It

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Speaker 1: was the standout car for Ford. So you're talking about

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Speaker 1: a car with a lot of power with a guy

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Speaker 1: that it was his car if he had been driving.

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Speaker 1: He's severely handicapped. I don't know. We don't know if

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Speaker 1: he had a prosthesis. I'm thinking that he did not,

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Speaker 1: and so if he is disabled to this point, and

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Speaker 1: he is disabled mentally to this great degree suffering from

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Speaker 1: what would we would call now pete severe PTSD, you

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Speaker 1: really have to wonder on that dark night when they're

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Speaker 1: heading out from Virginia to drive all the way to Kentucky,

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Speaker 1: what did the night hold for them? They never made

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Speaker 1: it to the family reunion, and for decades later, people

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Speaker 1: wondered and families cried. Every now and then, you will

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Speaker 1: have an event in your life. Sometimes it can be

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Speaker 1: something tiny, like Dave have you ever pulled out a

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Speaker 1: pair of old jeans, you put them on, you stick

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Speaker 1: your hand in the pocket, you find twenty dollars bill

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Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, my gosh, It's like it's like

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Speaker 1: the heavens open up and it's like this grand day.

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Speaker 1: You know, I got to know if how did this

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Speaker 1: go down? Where they're missing since August of nineteen seventy three,

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Speaker 1: how does this happen? They've been missing all this time.

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Speaker 1: You know, you think, well, one person can disappear and

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Speaker 1: people will doggedly try to track them down. But oh,

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Speaker 1: my lord, if you have three people that go missing,

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Speaker 1: and you're sitting here and we're talking about one of

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Speaker 1: the more isolated rural areas in America that stretch from

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Speaker 1: western Virginia, not West Virginia, but western Virginia all the

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Speaker 1: way through eastern Kentucky. You're talking about driving through the

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Speaker 1: heart of the Appalachian Mountains. How in the world do

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Speaker 1: you make sense of this?

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Speaker 2: The first week of August and we were talking about

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Speaker 2: whether or not they were driving at the air conditioning,

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Speaker 2: if they even had air conditioning, because the thing is

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Speaker 2: is that they did go missing, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: of what type of search took place. We know that

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Speaker 2: they were expected and they're you know, they were they

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Speaker 2: were on their way to a family reunion, so people

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Speaker 2: expected them to be there. When they didn't arrive, calls

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Speaker 2: were made. There was a lot of assumptions being made

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Speaker 2: that maybe John was driving, maybe they did have an accident,

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Speaker 2: but they couldn't find him anywhere. They tried to retrace

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Speaker 2: the steps that they had been on. But you know what,

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Speaker 2: when nothing was found, people it's not that people lose interest, okay,

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Speaker 2: but they they just have to have a reason to continue.

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Speaker 2: And after a certain period of time of being gone,

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Speaker 2: you don't think they've been kidnapped for money, you know,

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Speaker 2: you don't think there's something. You just think something happened

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Speaker 2: and we can't find them now, and eventually people just

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Speaker 2: tire of talking about it. To be honest with you,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how long that lasted, but I do

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Speaker 2: know this. In twenty sixteen, Lexington, Kentucky Fire Department is

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Speaker 2: doing a training exercise on the Kentucky River. Now, they

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Speaker 2: had used some sonar to find that there were some

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Speaker 2: cars in the river, and instead of just pulling them

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Speaker 2: out or leaving there there to you know, deteriorate. They

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Speaker 2: decided to turn it into an exercise to help teach

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Speaker 2: their fire department how to do water rescues and things

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Speaker 2: like that. So taking there were several cars, most of

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Speaker 2: them were stolen, Joe, and that to this day, I

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Speaker 2: don't understand why people would steal a car only to

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Speaker 2: toss it in the river.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, no, no, no, no, just let me

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Speaker 1: because I had friends of mine that worked for the

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Speaker 1: FBI Task Force Relative Stolen Vehicles and also state police

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Speaker 1: friends of mine. What they do is they strip everything

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Speaker 1: out of a vehicle, okay, and then that shell that's

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Speaker 1: left by the discard that they discard it and so,

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Speaker 1: and it's a legitimate question. Yeah, that's a great answer.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that happens. And you'll find it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: What if you've ever seen these people on YouTube that

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Speaker 1: are doing magnet fishing where they go to the bridge. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm fast stopped.

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Speaker 2: I'll got stuck on them for hours when we stopped

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Speaker 2: taping today. That's my grandson and I will sit there

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Speaker 2: and do that for course. What'd you do all day, Dave?

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Speaker 2: I was working, That's what I was doing, magnet fishing anyway,

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Speaker 2: So there's all these there's these cars and things they

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Speaker 2: found using sonar. They decided to make it a training

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Speaker 2: exercise and they're out there training and they're done. The

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Speaker 2: different fire departments are packed up, they're ready to leave again.

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Speaker 2: It's October of twenty sixteen. And they did find this

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Speaker 2: ford fair Lane in the river, but it was so

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Speaker 2: old and is so rusted, in such bad condition they

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Speaker 2: couldn't even get certain numbers they needed, so they weren't

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Speaker 2: really stressing over it as a vehicle. However, as they

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Speaker 2: were packing up, one of the firemen looks back and

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Speaker 2: sees something and it was obviously not a stick. And

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Speaker 2: I think for those of you in this field, you

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Speaker 2: know what a bone is. You know when you see

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Speaker 2: something that is a bone. It might not be human,

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Speaker 2: could be any number of things, but you know the

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Speaker 2: difference between a stick and a bone. To me, I

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Speaker 2: might not know the difference, but this fireman did. And

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Speaker 2: they went and got it. They knew this was something

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Speaker 2: that they might have disturbed while they were in the river.

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Speaker 2: They find this and they get it and they go, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is obviously a bone. They call in the County

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Speaker 2: corner and this is actually what caught my attention about

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Speaker 2: this story.

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Speaker 1: Joe.

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Speaker 2: They bring in the corner and ask him to take

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Speaker 2: a look at this. Okay, he says it is a bone,

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Speaker 2: but he can't determine if it's human or animal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So my first question to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, how

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Speaker 2: is that even an issue? I thought that would be

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Speaker 2: an easy one.

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Speaker 1: No, not necessarily. I think that people would be amazed

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Speaker 1: at the confusion that exists out there, and it's legitimate

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Speaker 1: and you should pay attention. There are certain times when

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Speaker 1: you need to pay attention to confusion and to try

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Speaker 1: to sort things out. I hate making assumptions, particularly when

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Speaker 1: it comes to investigations, and it's very very normal. You

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Speaker 1: talk about the corner that came out after the fire

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Speaker 1: department found the single bone. There have been people I've

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Speaker 1: been on duty when this happens. I will get a

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Speaker 1: call from the front desk and they'll say, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: need somebody in investigations. There's someone in the lobby with

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Speaker 1: a bone. And that happens with great frequency. They're out

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Speaker 1: in their backyard, they're digging, or they're wandering walking down

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Speaker 1: the road, or they're out in the woods on a

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Speaker 1: hike and they find a bone and look, I encourage

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Speaker 1: if you find a bone, you don't know what it is,

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Speaker 1: get it to somebody. There's no shame in it. The

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Speaker 1: lieon's share of the time when they would bring a

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00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 1: bone to us, it would be one of two bones.

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Speaker 1: Itoul are one of two species of bones, cow or hog,

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Speaker 1: and it's generally as a result of barbecuing, people cooking

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Speaker 1: and then they'll discard bones. Really, yes, that's funny. I

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Speaker 1: would never have guessed that, and you know, the historian

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Speaker 1: inside of me. One of the things that always held

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Speaker 1: out hope for is that during the Civil War, the

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Speaker 1: Battle of Atlanta, the Confederacy had trench lines that literally

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Speaker 1: ran right by the Medical Examiner's office, the southern perimeter

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Speaker 1: around the city. And I always held out hope that

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Speaker 1: somebody would be digging in their backyard and recover, you know,

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Speaker 1: historic remains like that, because for me, that's intellectually stimulating.

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Speaker 1: Never happened, unfortunately, But you have to look at the

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Speaker 1: bone and try to understand. That's why when people go

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Speaker 1: through like when they go to the Body Farm in

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Speaker 1: places like that, or to the Maple Center down at

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Speaker 1: the University of Florida, or out to University of Arizona,

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Speaker 1: where they've got a fine program as well. They spend

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00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 1: the anthropologists will spend a goodly portion of their time

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Speaker 1: examining the skeletons of a variety of different types of animals,

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Speaker 1: and that's so they can delineate between human versus non human.

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Speaker 2: Now I feel so much better about this.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: I really did think it was just to because I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I thought, how difficult can it be?

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Speaker 1: So it really is.

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Speaker 2: That's why this guy Gary gin the Fayette County Corner

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Speaker 2: and he could not determine exactly what it was. He

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Speaker 2: called in a retired anthropologist, doctor Emily Craig. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: she gets a look at it and says, not only

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Speaker 2: is he human? I can tell you this is female.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something? Yeah? How is this? One?

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Speaker 2: Guy can't even tell you if it's human? And she's like, oh, yeah,

380
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: so as a matter of fact, you think it's Aunt Martha,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, listen to the Corner's great credit.

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Speaker 1: I am more impressed with people that admit that they

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Speaker 1: don't know than those that walk around saying that they do.

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Speaker 1: I've learned so much more by saying I don't know

386
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Speaker 1: something in life, and when you can call in an expert,

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Speaker 1: you have the phone number of a physical anthropologist or

388
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,479
Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologist that's nearby. Utilize it, man, utilize it.

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Speaker 1: I always tell when I'm teaching classes, for instance, I

390
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Speaker 1: reach out. I tell police officers. You don't you do

391
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: not want to wait until the day that you have

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00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: a catastrophic event in your jurisdiction to build a relationship

393
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Speaker 1: with a forensic dentist or forensic anthropologist that should have

394
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: been done years prior to Okay, you don't want to

395
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Speaker 1: wait to end. So the corner obviously had this person,

396
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: maybe on speed dial, I don't know. But the fact

397
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 1: that they were able to look at the single bone

398
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: and not only say that not only is it human,

399
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: it's female. It goes into the discussion that we recently

400
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: had with the Melissa Wolfenberger where when we examine human

401
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: remains skeletal human remains, there are two terms that are

402
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: used pretty frequently, and that is, as it applies to

403
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: male skeletons, we will refer to them many times their

404
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: features as being robust, but with female skeletons we use

405
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: the term grassole, which means fine it's finer, more dainty,

406
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And also some of the features

407
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: are a little bit different. But you know, so even myself,

408
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Speaker 1: as you know, as much experience as I've had around

409
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: the dead, I'm not going to rely on my own

410
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: judgment relative to a skeleton remain. I'm going to try

411
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: to find the closest expert that I can, specifically a

412
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Speaker 1: physical anthropologist that has experienced not just in examining skeletal remains,

413
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: but Dave, there's another element to this that is quite striking.

414
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: This remain, the single remain, had been in an aquatic

415
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: environment for years and years and years, therefore even further

416
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: increasing the degree of difficulty in assessing who this belonged to.

417
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: I would wager that if you're trying to measure a

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00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 1: degree of difficulty when it comes to crime scenes, when

419
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: you get into an aquatic environment, it can either be

420
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: one hundred feet deep or knee deep. There is a

421
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: level of difficulty that comes into play where all evidence

422
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: is impacted. I know that, and I urge anybody that

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00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: is listening to please seek out my good buddy Bobby Chacone,

424
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: and he's a retired FBI agent, and he headed up

425
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: the dive team for the FBI and became quite famous

426
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: as an underwater crime scene investigator. He is fascinating individual.

427
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: I was actually appeared with him on Doctor Phil's show,

428
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: I think two years ago, and he is just remarkably

429
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: bright and has great insight things I don't normally think about.

430
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: And Dave, when we're talking about this bone that was recovered,

431
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of things that can happen to bone underwater.

432
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: A lot of it has to do with the chemistry

433
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: of the water. For instance, you can have kind of

434
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: a decalcification that takes place with the bone depended upon

435
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: you know, what type of it. You know, if you're

436
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: for instance, if you're downstream from some factory, for instance,

437
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: the water's not as necessarily pure in pristine as a

438
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: rocky mountain stream. You never know, and not to mention

439
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: things are going to be mud covered. Most rivers in

440
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: the South have a lot of silt on the bottom

441
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: of them and sometimes it's hard to make heads or tails.

442
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: Did I got to ask in this case, did they

443
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: only find this single bone?

444
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: You know, it's so funny, Joe, when they found the

445
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 2: one bone that started all of this, you know, I

446
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: mentioned it was in October. It was a couple of

447
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: weeks before they identified it, first of all as human

448
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: and female. That they were able to arrange going back

449
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: to the site to pull that Ford fair Lane out

450
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: of the river. Oh and when they got it out

451
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: of the river, they found more bones in the car. Now,

452
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: remember we already kind of we didn't bury the lead

453
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: by telling you there were three people in the car.

454
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 2: It's just there were three people in the car because

455
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: we had to tell you that to tell you why

456
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 2: they found it in the river to start with. But

457
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 2: when they're pulling the car out, they don't have the

458
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 2: information we already have given you. They're blind to this.

459
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 2: They just know they found one bone belongs to a female.

460
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: Pull the car out and find more. Now here's what

461
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: they found. They found the vehicle identified Martha helmet. Okay,

462
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: they found information. Now Martha they found and this is

463
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: what really got me, Joe, they were able they found

464
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: bones of a foot in pantyhose. Wow, they found an

465
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: elevated shoe, a shoe that has like a big heel

466
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: on it. Yes, Now, I remember how we mentioned that

467
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: John the older man, that he didn't have a leg. Well,

468
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: we're talking about a woman's shoe that was elevated, and

469
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: then they found a coin purse that identified other family members.

470
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: So they started figuring out they've got somebody here that

471
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: they can identify by certain aspects of knowing her family background.

472
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: And then they find a fractured tibbia bone, Yes, that

473
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: had never healed properly, never healed correctly. Now it was

474
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: so bad Joe that it caused her leg to be

475
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: shorter than the other. And all I'm thinking is did

476
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: she break that bone as a child and it was

477
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: never set properly. They didn't take her to the doctor,

478
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: and it caused her to have a permanent lifetime of.

479
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: Pain.

480
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 2: I mean it could if it doesn't heal, right, that's

481
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: got to cause serious pain.

482
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. And bones. Bones are fascinating, aren't they because they're

483
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: going to mend. Yeah. And when you see, like at autopsy,

484
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: when I've seen some of the most striking findings when

485
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: it comes to when we dissect out areas, Say, if

486
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: we've got an anomaly like a misshapen arm, many times

487
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: we'll do a dissection on the arm just to see, well,

488
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: why is it misshapen or to verify it. And many times,

489
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: for instance, the humorous, which is the large bone, the

490
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: upper bone in the arm. I've seen where when bones

491
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: kind of naturally mend, you'll see this kind of calcified

492
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: area turns into many times like a big knot and

493
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: the bone is trying to fuse back together. And it does,

494
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: but the problem is this, you won't have the same

495
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: length to it, and many times you won't have the

496
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: same range of motion because it's all everything impacts everything else,

497
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: the biomechanics that are involved in it. And so when

498
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: in forensics, there's a term that we use called individualization,

499
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: and boys got all all of the trademarks, if you will,

500
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: of somebody that is specifically we pray for cases like

501
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: this of the unidentified. The fact that she's got a

502
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: tibia that has been incorrectly fused. There's evidence that it

503
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: has been previously broken and this could have happened. It

504
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: could have happened in childhood, or it could have happened

505
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: in adulthood. And you know, we know that she doesn't

506
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: come from a lot of money. And there are people

507
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: that walk around on broken bones. I've met them and

508
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: it's excruciatingly painful. Maybe it was never set properly, but

509
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: this is the one thing that we would know if

510
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: we were investigators going back to ask her history. If

511
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: we didn't know about the shoe for instance, all right,

512
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: and we had this bone, we could go back and

513
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: those that are still living that remember Martha, did she

514
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: walk with a limp? Did she favor one side? And

515
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: here's the other thing. That bone in her leg. Yes,

516
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: it's shorter, and yes it would have caused her Did

517
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: you know that that impacts also now that you have

518
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: the tib fib which are the two lower bones in

519
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: the leg. That impacts the knee. It impacts the femur,

520
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: which is the largest bone. It's the largest long bone

521
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: in the body that's from knee to hip. It impacts

522
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: the hip. So like where the ball of the head

523
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: of the femur fits into the pelvis, you would have

524
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: there would be markings on the interior of that pelvis

525
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: because it's atypical because of the shape of her leg

526
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: and the legs are asymmetrical, so you know she'd be

527
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: dragging a leg behind her. It's going to impact her

528
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: entire body. So if all you have are skeletal remains remaining,

529
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: you can look for those little markers. If we're absent

530
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: the shoe. But boy, I'm a dude. I'm amazed by

531
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: two things. First Off, they found panty hose nylon, which

532
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: is a synthetic, and that contained a bag of bones.

533
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: You know that when we go out to recover skeletal remains,

534
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: some of the first things that disappear are the bones

535
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: of the feet and the bones of the hands, and

536
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: that's because they're so small and there's so many of them.

537
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: The fact that they recovered multiple bones of the foot

538
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: and it's all contained in this what remains of this pantyhose,

539
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: and you know that they're made out of a synthetic.

540
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: More than likely it's probably a synthetic blend of something,

541
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: because it's not just pure nylon, it's probably something else.

542
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: It gives you an idea, I think when you really

543
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: scratch your head over how resilient these materials are. And

544
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, they found her skirt or a dress.

545
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 2: It was a great dress that she wore. And just

546
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: so it can be clear here, she was kind of

547
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 2: a large lady. And oftentimes, when we're in our mid

548
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: to late fifties, if we're not people of means and

549
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,240
Speaker 2: we're large, we don't have a big wardrobe, and Martha

550
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 2: was a person who didn't have much of a wardrobe,

551
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 2: and so people knew her by her great, great dress,

552
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,479
Speaker 2: and they found it. They found enough of the gray

553
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 2: dress that they were able to use that as part

554
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 2: of the identific not the actual identification of it. But

555
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: like backing up, they were talking about how everything they

556
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: found in the car of hers it just reinforced the

557
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: fact that it was her because.

558
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: A, yeah, it's a confirmatory piece of that. Yeah, you're

559
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: absolutely right, man.

560
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: But they didn't find anything from Flora or from John.

561
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 2: What are that?

562
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: Well, I gotta tell you, I've never been to the

563
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: Kentucky River all right. Now. My understanding is where the

564
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: car went in is near an old ferry site, and

565
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: I think the fairy still actually exists.

566
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: This Wait a minute, This is what you were talking

567
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: to me about off air, that it would have been

568
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 2: deeper there.

569
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, because it didn't go off it's hard

570
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: to understand. But let's say, for instance, it went off

571
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: of a bridge, all right, went off of a bridge.

572
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: Generally around the pilings of a bridge, you're gonna have

573
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:25,479
Speaker 1: a lot more depth perhaps, And depending upon depth, First off,

574
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: things are going to sink to the bottom. You're talking

575
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: about a car. Car is not going to float here.

576
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: Here's what's kind of fascinating. I think if we believe

577
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: that that car did not have air conditioning, Dude, it's

578
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: August in the South. Guess what. The fair Lane is

579
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: a two door car, so they would have had both

580
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: of those windows down. I think it had vent windows

581
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: in the back. Remember vent windows. They would roll down

582
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: their kind of triangle shaped, so you've got this big,

583
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: wide open space. For some reason, Martha is perhaps she

584
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: may have been in the back seat, so that would

585
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: facilitate her being wedged in the back seat. The other

586
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: two if they're not belted, which most people were not belted,

587
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: and even if you were, I think most OF's cars

588
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: came with only lap belts. Dude, with the flow and

589
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 1: the volume of water in there, they're going to float out.

590
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: And Lord only knows where they wound up. You know,

591
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: those those bodies wound up downstream somewhere, I think. Okay,

592
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: but the fact that she was even found, or what

593
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: remained of her body was found inside of that vehicle

594
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: is pretty fascinating. I even think this was I don't know,

595
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: there's something that it was kind of creepy chilling to me.

596
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: They actually found her coin purse as well, I believe,

597
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: didn't they date and it still had coins in it.

598
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: But you had mentioned something else that was kind of significant.

599
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 2: Actually had a key for a trailer, and you and

600
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: I looked this up because the key was for a trailer,

601
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: like we were wondering, is it like a camper trailer

602
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: or a house trailer, no matter what it was, it

603
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 2: was identified as this camper trailer or this trailer rather

604
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: that she used to live in. It was a very

605
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: significant fine because everything they found just confirmed who they

606
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 2: had found, all the way, from the shoe to the nihil.

607
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: You know, the bone. The bone is what got me.

608
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 2: The bone fracture that didn't heal, the shoe that has

609
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: to have a bigger heel. That little coin purse, I mean,

610
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: how do you find that in a river after forty years?

611
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: You know?

612
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: It just I'm wondering if when this is a fascinating

613
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: thing to me when they because you got to take

614
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: great care of Dave. You know, you had already said

615
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: that this car is fragile. Yeah, there's a picture of

616
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: it that exists, and when you said it's rusted out, brother,

617
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: it is rusted out. You would have to take This

618
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: is not something you're not just lifting law side of

619
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 1: a river that a beaver dam or stones that are

620
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: You're talking about the totality of that vehicle is evidence

621
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: and you would have to take such care with it's

622
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: so very fragile. This is an artifact almost to get

623
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: it over to shore and set down carefully so that

624
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: you could examine everything. And just so folks understand, when

625
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: you pull something out of a river like this, your

626
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: biggest your biggest obstacle, one of the biggest obstacles you're

627
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: going to have is going to be mud and silt.

628
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: It is going to be jam packed with this stuff.

629
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: So you would have to go in and I can

630
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: only imagine depending upon the attitude of the vehicle, the

631
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: physical attitude of the vehicle in the water, over all

632
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: these years with water floods, You can imagine all the

633
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: years that river's flooded since that fateful night in nineteen

634
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: seventy three, things being washed in, washed out, maybe trees

635
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: and hung up on it, all of this other stuff.

636
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: It's all settling to the bottom. And maybe, just maybe

637
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: that's why they found the remnant of the foot and

638
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: the nihl On maybe it was buried beneath the silt

639
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: contained within the car, all that deposition of stuff that

640
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: was in there for years and years. But they can't

641
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: find hiding the hair of these other two occupants. They've

642
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: they're gone, I mean gone, as in gone gone. You'll

643
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: never see them again because the Lord only knows where

644
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: those bodies wound up. But you know, Martha was there

645
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: to tell the tale, Dave, and the tragedy of this,

646
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: I think, and I'm not trying to diminish the World

647
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: War One veteran, but you've got sisters here, and the

648
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: impact that that's going to have is far reaching. It's generational.

649
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: That's that's a sorrow that never goes away. It's something

650
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: that people will remember. It becomes the stuff of lore

651
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 1: and family, you know, for for younger and younger generations.

652
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: But the fact that this firefighter, this deputy chief, would

653
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: be willing to engage in this and he's becoming you know,

654
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: he's you don't normally think of firefighters as investigators. Now

655
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: you think of arson investigators. But you know, he begins

656
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: on his own to do Google searches and you know

657
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: they wind up. Actually, I think that he connected through

658
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: a blog that turned out, you know, where where they

659
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: found this family in Virginia from all these years ago,

660
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: where these loved ones are missing. And you know, can

661
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: you imagine getting this thunderbolt out out of nowhere of people,

662
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: you know, saying, look, we might have information about this

663
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: missing family member of yours. But you know, the beauty

664
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: of this is that as a result, and this is

665
00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: quite amazing to me scientifically, that these skeletal elements that

666
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: they took such care with the recovery of actually yielded

667
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: viable DNA. And now these things had been submerged all

668
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: of this time. Dave, he was able to go out

669
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: or they were able to go out and get a

670
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: third generation DNA sample from a descendant of this family,

671
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: and David was a spot on match, spot on match

672
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: to Martha's family. Can you imagine this just out of nowhere? Now,

673
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: you know, we'll probably never know what actually happened to

674
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: John Keaton and unfortunately Flora, but we have established that

675
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: they were all there together that night when that car

676
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: went in to that river in Kentucky in that black

677
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: driven off and began to sink to the bottom. But

678
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: one witness remained and that was the mortal remains of

679
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: Martha Helmet. She bore testimony that they were there, and

680
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: that in some ways she was still there, and only

681
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: all that remains told the final tale. I'm Joseph Scott

682
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Backs