1
00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:07,720
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last Days.

2
00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:13,119
Speaker 2: A star athlete accused in his brother's gruesome murder back

3
00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:19,080
Speaker 2: in court as prosecutors prepare an indictment. I'm Nancy Grace,

4
00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,440
Speaker 2: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

5
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:22,960
Speaker 1: That's right.

6
00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,560
Speaker 2: A Princeton man known as a star student now accused

7
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 2: of murdering his own brother and the family cat. He

8
00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 2: was in court prosecutors preparing to take his case to

9
00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,599
Speaker 2: a secret grand jury. The victim, twenty six year old

10
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,159
Speaker 2: Joseph Hurt getting the family superstar, brutally murdered in the

11
00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,519
Speaker 2: family's Princeton apartment with a knife and a golf club.

12
00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 2: A probable cause hearing is set down for the next

13
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:57,240
Speaker 2: few weeks, but that may be totally sidestepped if the

14
00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:02,280
Speaker 2: state gets an indictment first. A probable cause hearing is

15
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,720
Speaker 2: when evidence is brought forth to a magistrate judge. The

16
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,479
Speaker 2: judge decides if there's enough probable cause for the case

17
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 2: to be bound over to superior court or felony court.

18
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,280
Speaker 2: But all that can be easily sidestepped if the state

19
00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,319
Speaker 2: simply takes the case to a grand jury.

20
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,080
Speaker 1: A probable cause hearing is never a good thing. For

21
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:25,560
Speaker 1: the state.

22
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,800
Speaker 2: Why because it's a public hearing and the defense gets

23
00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,880
Speaker 2: a chance to cross examine the state's witnesses.

24
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 1: That's kind of like a dry run for the trial. No, no, no, don't.

25
00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,080
Speaker 2: Do that, go to grand jury. That said, what do

26
00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,000
Speaker 2: we believe happened? Based on police sources and police reports

27
00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 2: we've managed to obtain.

28
00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,880
Speaker 3: Listen, flashing lights and sirens break the usual silence outside

29
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,760
Speaker 3: the luxury of Michelle Muse's apartments just off Princeton University campus.

30
00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,440
Speaker 3: Around eleven to fifteen pm, police answer a nine to

31
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,600
Speaker 3: one one call to the nearly seventh thousand dollars a

32
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,600
Speaker 3: month complex reporting a death in a fire. Units in

33
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,320
Speaker 3: the building sell for as much as two million dollars.

34
00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,600
Speaker 3: As responders arrive, flames are not visible, and police work

35
00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 3: to gain access to the building.

36
00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:12,959
Speaker 1: True words were never spoken.

37
00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:18,560
Speaker 2: Money can't buy love or happiness a seven thousand dollars

38
00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,359
Speaker 2: a month apartment, and they can't be happy with every

39
00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:29,080
Speaker 2: luxury they could be provided. Still, brother kills Brother, a

40
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 2: story as old as Genesis. Joining me an all star

41
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,880
Speaker 2: panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight,

42
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,320
Speaker 2: straight out to Karen Wall, Senior Local Editor, Patch Media.

43
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,839
Speaker 1: Karen thank you for being with us.

44
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 2: First of all, can you describe where this occurred?

45
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 4: This apartment is in on the middle of a very

46
00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,359
Speaker 4: new complex. These apartments were built in twenty nineteen, it appears,

47
00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,080
Speaker 4: and they're right in the middle of Homer Square, which

48
00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,960
Speaker 4: is high end shops. That the whole block where they

49
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 4: are is essentially self contained. The apartment isn't accessible directly

50
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,520
Speaker 4: from the street. You have to go through an archway

51
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:15,280
Speaker 4: to get into it.

52
00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,200
Speaker 1: When you say luxury shops, what do you mean by that?

53
00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,080
Speaker 4: We're talking high end boutiques, you know where you're not

54
00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,880
Speaker 4: walking in there unless you're pulling down thousands of dollars

55
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:26,840
Speaker 4: a month in income.

56
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,240
Speaker 2: You know, it's amazing to me to look at all

57
00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,600
Speaker 2: these photos and guys, we're getting these photos that you're

58
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 2: seeing right there off there the family's social media. That's

59
00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,520
Speaker 2: where we're learning so much about these two soccer star brothers.

60
00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,640
Speaker 1: Now one dad. You know Phil Waters, help me out here.

61
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,720
Speaker 2: Phil Waters, guys, you know him well, former homicide detective

62
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:53,680
Speaker 2: for Houston PD, President's CEO Kindred Spirits Investigations. Phil, I mean,

63
00:03:54,560 --> 00:04:01,720
Speaker 2: I've been in so many housing projects, Trump through crack houses, brothels.

64
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:02,960
Speaker 1: For lack of the better word.

65
00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 2: You name it under bridges and strip clubs where murders

66
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:13,960
Speaker 2: go down. But really you're looking down at what Brooks

67
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 2: brothers and Ann Taylor. That's probably not posh enough actually

68
00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 2: with and these people still with all of that, they

69
00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,159
Speaker 2: still have to kill each other. I mean, these two

70
00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:30,599
Speaker 2: were soccer stars at preppy schools, bringing in tons of money,

71
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,320
Speaker 2: silver spoon, the works.

72
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,000
Speaker 1: What is wrong with these people?

73
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,520
Speaker 5: Well, it just goes to show that people with money

74
00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,400
Speaker 5: still have problems like the rest of us.

75
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:46,040
Speaker 2: As you already wait, Phil, okay, don't start it off wrong.

76
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,200
Speaker 1: Then okay, problems, Yeah, problems.

77
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,160
Speaker 2: But I don't have the problem that I want to

78
00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,600
Speaker 2: murder a family member and our cat and dog and

79
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:56,240
Speaker 2: guinea pig.

80
00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,159
Speaker 1: I don't have that. I don't call that really a problem.

81
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,640
Speaker 2: I call a problem an illness, a family member with

82
00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,279
Speaker 2: maybe an addiction, going broke and losing your home and

83
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,160
Speaker 2: living under.

84
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,080
Speaker 1: A bridge, those are problems.

85
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,000
Speaker 2: The urge, the sudden, urged a club, your brother dead

86
00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,719
Speaker 2: with a golf club, then stab him. I call that

87
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,880
Speaker 2: a problem. I call that premeditation and murderous intent.

88
00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,479
Speaker 5: Well, I would have to say that is something like

89
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,159
Speaker 5: this regardless of the setting. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.

90
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:28,960
Speaker 5: And what I have noticed that if I have a

91
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 5: case like this, in all my cases that I always

92
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,680
Speaker 5: put together a psychological autopsy on the suspect, because when

93
00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,440
Speaker 5: I get them in the interview room, I want to

94
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,520
Speaker 5: be able to address the wise behind the act. And

95
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,680
Speaker 5: in this particular case, the one thing I've noticed is

96
00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 5: that in the description in the media of these two men,

97
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 5: the younger brother the victim here, Joseph has always described

98
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 5: in his great successes in high school, and his great

99
00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:04,360
Speaker 5: successes in college at the University of Michigan with the soccer,

100
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,880
Speaker 5: with his academics, and then his success with his job,

101
00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 5: the work that he's been involved in. And then when

102
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 5: you talk about the description of the brother a suspect

103
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 5: in this case, it just says he played soccer at Wesleyan.

104
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,760
Speaker 5: So there is a real backstory here that is yet

105
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,880
Speaker 5: to develop. But I would tell you that this didn't happen.

106
00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,280
Speaker 5: This was not an instant decision. This is something that

107
00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,440
Speaker 5: has been building, building, building, and this is you know

108
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,560
Speaker 5: what we would call a smoking gun case. Well, in

109
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 5: this case, it's a smoking golf club.

110
00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,680
Speaker 2: No, no to everything you just said. All of what

111
00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,560
Speaker 2: you just said may very well be true. Okay, may

112
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,159
Speaker 2: be true, but what you are describing is a motive

113
00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 2: for murder, and that motive is jealousy. I still don't

114
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,680
Speaker 2: see that as a problem that we all have a

115
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 2: family problem that would lead to a drastic act. In

116
00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,160
Speaker 2: my mind, would be something severe or not. You're jealous

117
00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,240
Speaker 2: of your little brother because he outdid you on the

118
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:20,240
Speaker 2: soccer field. And speaking of jealousy in this case. To

119
00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:25,240
Speaker 2: special guests joining us, Sam Bassett, renown criminal defense attorney

120
00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 2: at Minton Bassett, Flores and Carsey, and let me add

121
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 2: former president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Educational Institute, Sam,

122
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,760
Speaker 2: I hear everything fil just said, and he may be

123
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 2: factually one hundred percent accurate.

124
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,160
Speaker 1: But about five years.

125
00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 2: Into prosecuting nothing but violent crime, I was looking over

126
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 2: at a defense a killer, a murderer, and it wasn't

127
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,720
Speaker 2: his first time, and I thought, why why would he

128
00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,160
Speaker 2: leave such a wake of pain behind him over nothing?

129
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,520
Speaker 2: And then it hit me five years It took me

130
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:09,320
Speaker 2: why ask why? Because the state never has to prove motive,

131
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:11,720
Speaker 2: does it, Sambassett, it does not.

132
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,360
Speaker 6: I think this case kind of has a resonating theme.

133
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,679
Speaker 6: In Texas a few years ago, we had a Clay

134
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 6: case where the defense put on an expert to talk

135
00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:27,240
Speaker 6: about the affluenza, the psychological effect of wealth and privilege

136
00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,480
Speaker 6: on a young man who had committed a crime, and

137
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,080
Speaker 6: to try to mitigate the responsibility. Now that fell on

138
00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,000
Speaker 6: unsympathetic ears for ninety percent of the public.

139
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:39,960
Speaker 7: Because.

140
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,400
Speaker 6: It's hard to stomach, as you said, it's hard to

141
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,840
Speaker 6: stomach how somebody with all these privileges and all these.

142
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 7: Blessings could do something like this.

143
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 6: And I think you have to begin to peel the

144
00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,920
Speaker 6: onion skin layers and try to understand what was going

145
00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,160
Speaker 6: on inside this older brother's head. Other than just let

146
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,000
Speaker 6: it has to be something even.

147
00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,240
Speaker 1: Worse you just said, the state doesn't have to prove motive.

148
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,320
Speaker 2: Why do I have to get in his head and

149
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,560
Speaker 2: look around in there to figure out why he brutally

150
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,440
Speaker 2: murdered his brother and the family cat. Now you were

151
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:23,360
Speaker 2: referring to a defense called affluenza when typically an adult

152
00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,480
Speaker 2: manchild is so used to a silver spoon in his

153
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,880
Speaker 2: mouth that he can't relate to real life.

154
00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,880
Speaker 1: Now, see right now, you're barking up the wrong tree.

155
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,240
Speaker 2: My dad worked the swing shift for the railroad my

156
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 2: whole life, and my mom started off as a bank teller.

157
00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,160
Speaker 2: All right, So the whole affluenza I'm too rich to

158
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,480
Speaker 2: be held accountable thing is not working right here. But

159
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,760
Speaker 2: speaking of the affluenza teen, he was not a teen.

160
00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,200
Speaker 2: But the affluenza defense you're referring to Ethan Couch. I

161
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 2: remember him well, a Terran County case.

162
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,240
Speaker 1: Listen nine one one.

163
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:06,040
Speaker 7: What is your ass emergency? There's a record road we

164
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:14,200
Speaker 7: need commnbuloce. We flipped and again, okay were you involved? Oh,

165
00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,880
Speaker 7: I was in the truck. Okay, you're in the truck.

166
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:23,360
Speaker 7: Are you injured? We just to help it. And how

167
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 7: many people are injured? Just for my record, dude, I

168
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 7: have no idea. You don't know how many people are

169
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,319
Speaker 7: injured we're calling.

170
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:34,800
Speaker 1: That's him, Ethan Couch.

171
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 2: He flipped his souped up truck, killing three, killing three,

172
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,600
Speaker 2: including a youth minister on the side of the road,

173
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:51,520
Speaker 2: trying to change a woman's flat tire, and permanently, permanently

174
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,600
Speaker 2: paralyzing another victim.

175
00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,840
Speaker 1: And take a listen to the sentence. Look at my brother.

176
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,760
Speaker 8: He's doing more than a twin day period one twenty

177
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,640
Speaker 8: eight or whatever he's doing more than ten years of probation.

178
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,480
Speaker 3: Ethan Couch is such a spoiled child. When he kills

179
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,120
Speaker 3: four people while driving under the influence of drugs and

180
00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,640
Speaker 3: speeding through a residential area, his attorney creates a special

181
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,560
Speaker 3: defense for him due to his affluenza and placed the

182
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,320
Speaker 3: blame for the car crash and the deaths squarely on

183
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,920
Speaker 3: the shoulders of his parents for never punishing him for

184
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,360
Speaker 3: anything he does wrong and giving him everything he wants.

185
00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,840
Speaker 2: If it had been prosecuted for murder, he'd be in

186
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 2: jail right now. As it was, it was a lesser

187
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,079
Speaker 2: voluntary He could have gotten twenty years behind bars on

188
00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:41,240
Speaker 2: each count. But what did he get, An unspecified sentence

189
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,560
Speaker 2: to a treatment facility. He goes on the run and

190
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,720
Speaker 2: he's found with his mother hold up in a five

191
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:56,840
Speaker 2: star resort in Mexico. He was caught ordering room service,

192
00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 2: ordering pizza. Okay him, Ethan cows, you brought it up.

193
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,600
Speaker 2: I didn't affluenza, and that's what we're saying here as well.

194
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,839
Speaker 2: When you heard from Alex Molina, the brother of the

195
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:17,000
Speaker 2: permanently paralyzed Sergio Molina, that was from our friends at

196
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:22,080
Speaker 2: fort Worth Star telegram back to this case.

197
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,199
Speaker 9: Listen eleven sixteen pm Saturday night, Princeton Police receive a

198
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,560
Speaker 9: nine to one one call about a dead body and

199
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 9: a fire in an apartment building. The caller, Matthew Hurkin,

200
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,840
Speaker 9: remains cryptic on the phone, not answering the dispatcher's questions

201
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,560
Speaker 9: about who is dead, why they are dead, who owns

202
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:40,280
Speaker 9: the apartment?

203
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:40,959
Speaker 3: And more?

204
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 9: Police and first responders surround the building. But nothing could

205
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,080
Speaker 9: have prepared officers for what they found inside.

206
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:53,000
Speaker 2: Two Our friend Karen Wool joining us from Patch media.

207
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:54,960
Speaker 1: What did they find inside?

208
00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 4: Karen reporting says that they found Joseph dead, the family

209
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:07,680
Speaker 4: cat dead, and they found a bloody knife plate and

210
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,959
Speaker 4: Joseph's eyeball missing. The cat apparently had been set on fire.

211
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:26,520
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last days.

212
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:32,160
Speaker 2: A star athlete accused in his Princeton brother's horrific murder

213
00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,320
Speaker 2: in court as prosecutors prepare to take the case to

214
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,480
Speaker 2: a grand jury. What happened in that Princeton apartment Joining

215
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,640
Speaker 2: us right now, Phil Waters, veteran homicide detective.

216
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,160
Speaker 1: It was a rage attack. Why do you say that.

217
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,720
Speaker 5: Well, just the scene itself. When I walk into a

218
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 5: scene like this. The first thing that's going to stick

219
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,079
Speaker 5: out to me is it's overkill. You know, this use

220
00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,360
Speaker 5: of a golf club and a knife and the condition

221
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 5: of the body of the victim. And then you've got

222
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,839
Speaker 5: this this subtext over here with the killing of the cat.

223
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,040
Speaker 5: So there's some kind of symbolism here between everything that

224
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,199
Speaker 5: happened in that scene. This is one of these things

225
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,599
Speaker 5: where as I walked into any scene, I let it

226
00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,600
Speaker 5: talk to me. I want to take a look at it,

227
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 5: and what are these things indicate to me about what

228
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,880
Speaker 5: happened in this moment in time in that apartment.

229
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:28,160
Speaker 2: Doctor jan Gorniac is joining us renowned former medical examiner

230
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,800
Speaker 2: and the Clark County Office of Medical Examiners as in Vegas,

231
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,840
Speaker 2: never lack of business. She's seen more dead bodies than

232
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,200
Speaker 2: probably all of us put together, even having visited many

233
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,560
Speaker 2: crime saying, doctor Gorniac, thank you for being with us.

234
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,720
Speaker 2: Do you agree with Phil's assessment, Phil Waters that this

235
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,320
Speaker 2: is a rage attack?

236
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 8: If so, why I am not sure I can agree

237
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,560
Speaker 8: with that because that's outside of my lane. So as

238
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,960
Speaker 8: a friendtic pathologist or a death investigator, we go in

239
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 8: and we note the injuries that we see but to

240
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,960
Speaker 8: categorize it as a rage, that's not what we typically do.

241
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 8: But I can understand why Phil is saying that an

242
00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,400
Speaker 8: overkill because the use of more than one weapon golf

243
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,040
Speaker 8: club and a sharp force instrument as the knife.

244
00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:26,520
Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious, doctor Gorniac, when you say overkill, what.

245
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,880
Speaker 1: Do you mean by that? And what here leads you

246
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,160
Speaker 1: to call it overkill?

247
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 8: Well, the use of more than one weapon. So you

248
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,840
Speaker 8: have a blunt object, which is the golf club, and

249
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,360
Speaker 8: then you have a sharp force weapon, which is a knife.

250
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,800
Speaker 8: I'm not sure exactly what injuries he has, but it

251
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,080
Speaker 8: sounds like most of them are from the golf club.

252
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 8: I've done plenty of cases, both blunt force injuries and

253
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,360
Speaker 8: sharp force injuries. Sometimes you have one stab woman and

254
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 8: someone is dead. Sometimes you have ninety six. So depending

255
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,840
Speaker 8: on that or just number of wounds that you can

256
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,240
Speaker 8: take a golf club and strike somebody in the head

257
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 8: one time and cause their death, or you strike them

258
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,880
Speaker 8: about the body and not only do they have head injury,

259
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 8: but they have chest injury, heart lacerations, liver lacerations.

260
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,560
Speaker 2: Doctor Gorniac, have you ever seen a murder victim that

261
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,520
Speaker 2: had a body part gouged out as in this case.

262
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,480
Speaker 1: I have not been twenty years. I've been practicing.

263
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,800
Speaker 8: I've had dismembered bodies, But to gouge out an eye

264
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,120
Speaker 8: in this case, I.

265
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 1: Think that would have given me.

266
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,600
Speaker 8: The willies if I was at that scene, because I mean,

267
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 8: I've seen a lot, but that probably would have been

268
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 8: a little bit too much for me.

269
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,520
Speaker 2: You know, I want to go to doctor Jeff Kalashevski again,

270
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 2: Doctor Jeff.

271
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,720
Speaker 1: Why and criminal law doesn't matter? Now?

272
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,920
Speaker 2: Practically speaking? It does actually because a jury wants to

273
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 2: hear what's the motive?

274
00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 1: Right? They want to hear?

275
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:05,240
Speaker 2: Could you describe what is the middle child syndrome? The

276
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,639
Speaker 2: alleged killer the brother in this case was the middle child.

277
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:16,520
Speaker 2: The older brother superstar. The younger brother eclipsed the suspect

278
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,520
Speaker 2: in every way. He himself was a shining star. He

279
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,920
Speaker 2: played soccer at a really ritzy prep school in Toms River.

280
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,480
Speaker 2: He went on to play soccer a starting soccer player

281
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:36,919
Speaker 2: for another elite prep school, Wesleyan. I guess that wasn't

282
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,880
Speaker 2: enough to satisfy his ego.

283
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,560
Speaker 1: What's with the middle child syndrome?

284
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,960
Speaker 10: Well, there's this stereotype that the middle child gets less attention,

285
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,600
Speaker 10: so that they have to do things to get more attention.

286
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,399
Speaker 10: But this is clearly beyond a middle child who's jealous

287
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 10: of a little brother. There's a lot more going on

288
00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 10: in this case than that. Just when we talked earlier

289
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,719
Speaker 10: about using a golf club and then a knife, we

290
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,920
Speaker 10: talked about is this a rage killing. There's more going

291
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 10: on than this. You know, someone uses a golf club,

292
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,760
Speaker 10: and I've had plenty of cases where people have used

293
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,920
Speaker 10: golf clubs and gouged out eyes and said pets on fire.

294
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,239
Speaker 10: Believe it or not, the golf club can't kill you,

295
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,359
Speaker 10: but it's usually it can be on one hip, but

296
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 10: it's not a very efficient murder weapon. So for what

297
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 10: we talked about already, in this case, this killer was

298
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 10: obviously into the experience of the murder. Took it a

299
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,160
Speaker 10: step further where gouging out eyeballs. This is an experience

300
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,399
Speaker 10: rather than just aim I want to off my brother

301
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,159
Speaker 10: that I'm jealous of and then the idea of setting

302
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 10: the cat on fire. Again, for some reason, this person

303
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:52,160
Speaker 10: is carrying out these acts and these murders for the

304
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,639
Speaker 10: experience rather than just the motivation or the aim that

305
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,119
Speaker 10: I want to off my little brother who I'm jealous of.

306
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,720
Speaker 1: Okay, Kelly's ask you hold on just a JD.

307
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,040
Speaker 2: I'm not a forensic psychologist like your author of Dark

308
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 2: Sides on YouTube, doctor Jeff Kalischewski, forensic psychologist, Doctor Jeff

309
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 2: the experience. We've been analyzing that theory in depth when

310
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:25,440
Speaker 2: it relates to Brian Koberger, the PhD criminology student out

311
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:30,919
Speaker 2: at Pullman in Washington State, and the working theory is

312
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 2: that with no connection to the four murdered college students

313
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,119
Speaker 2: murdered in their own beds in the wee hours of

314
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:46,679
Speaker 2: the morning before Thanksgiving break because he was obsessed with

315
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 2: the experience. He had been asking in a study for

316
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:59,719
Speaker 2: his PhD, asking violent felons a questionnaire like what did

317
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 2: you feel just before you committed the crime? What were

318
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,359
Speaker 2: you thinking? What were you feeling, what went through your mind?

319
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,920
Speaker 2: What did it feel like when you identified your quote target?

320
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,120
Speaker 1: How did you feel during it?

321
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 2: Were you cognizant of finding a way out or a

322
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 2: quick exit? In retrospect, how do you feel about what

323
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 2: you experienced.

324
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 1: During the crime. He was obsessed with it, then.

325
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 2: Carefully plotted and planned the murders and then carried them out,

326
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:35,639
Speaker 2: many people thinking his desire was the experience to know

327
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 2: what it feels like to kill someone. What are you

328
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 2: talking about in this case the middle child syndrome. The

329
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: middle child wants the experience of gouging his little brother's

330
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 2: eyeball out.

331
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,679
Speaker 10: For some reason, he does because, again, if this was

332
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 10: a simple, straightforward I hate my brother and I'm going

333
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 10: to kill him, like you said, that goes all the

334
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 10: way back to Genesis, have been done a lot more efficiently,

335
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 10: and it would have not taken us long. In this

336
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 10: experience of using a couple murder weapons, gouging the eyeball,

337
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,439
Speaker 10: setting the cat on fire. There's more here than just

338
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 10: a straightforward murder with a motivation of jealousy or just

339
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 10: a hate of your brother.

340
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 2: Hey, doctor Jeff Kalswski, listen to this. The of course,

341
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,640
Speaker 2: cause of death for Joseph is pending autopsy, but we

342
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 2: know he was bludgeoned. According to police sources that spoke

343
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 2: to the post, Matthew played. Now this is the suspect.

344
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 2: Brother Matthew Hurtkin, now thirty one, no longer a fresh shide,

345
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 2: fresh faced, bright eyed team playing soccer.

346
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 1: He's a grown man.

347
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 2: I bet you anything, living off his mom and dad,

348
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: but that remains to be saying. He played soccer at

349
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 2: Tom's River North High School and went on to play

350
00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 2: at the elite Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Okay, so he

351
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 2: played college soccer. That's a big deal. That's hard to do.

352
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 2: Very few people make it onto a starting college sports team.

353
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 2: I don't care how great you are in little league,

354
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 2: You're probably not going to make it onto a college team.

355
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 2: He did, and he played on the college team for

356
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 2: years at Wesleyan.

357
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,919
Speaker 1: Was that not enough for his ego?

358
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: Then comes along Little Brother, a three time academic All

359
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 2: Big Ten soccer player, played at University Michigan twenty sixteen

360
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 2: to twenty nineteen. He the Little Brother now murdered high school,

361
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 2: two time MVP off as a Player of the Year,

362
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 2: graduated from the Steven m Ross School of Business, and

363
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 2: had a career in asset management.

364
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: Per the News now hold on, Phil.

365
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: Waters was describing these two brothers, and there's an older brother,

366
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: by the way, an older brother, Joseph Hertgan, who is

367
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 2: a shining star in his career. Phil Waters, you were

368
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: talking about how he just couldn't find that much about

369
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 2: the alleged killer. Nobody can we find out a lot

370
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 2: about the victim. We found out a lot about the

371
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 2: older brother, but not much about the alleged killer brother.

372
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 1: Phil, You're right, well.

373
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 5: I tell you what, It's just an indication. And again,

374
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 5: and I'm looking at this thing as a homicide top

375
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 5: walking into this scene. I agree with the doctor to

376
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 5: the good degree that once he started the killing, that

377
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 5: he was getting into the experience. But look, it started

378
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 5: that this fuse started burning a long time ago, in

379
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 5: my opinion, and it finally got to the point where

380
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 5: something happened in that apartment that day between he and

381
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 5: his brother that finally blew the lid off of this.

382
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 5: And so again, these things don't happen in a vacuum.

383
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 5: I just think it is. It's I think there's more

384
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 5: to it than just a simple jealousy.

385
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 1: This is something that is.

386
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 5: Built and built and built over years from a lot

387
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 5: of different directions. And I think the fact that we

388
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 5: know very little about the suspect in this case to

389
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 5: me as a homicide cop, as an indicator, That's why

390
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 5: I would want to get him in an interview room

391
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 5: and delve into where did this start and how did

392
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 5: it manifest itself into this brutal evil killing.

393
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 7: Of his brother.

394
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:42,719
Speaker 2: Did a college soccer star murder his little brother, also

395
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 2: a college soccer star?

396
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: In There's the Apartment Listen.

397
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 3: At the University of Michigan, Joseph Hertkin continues to receive

398
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 3: awards for academic excellence off the field. Hurtgan major's in

399
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 3: business administration, accounting and finance graduates with honors and lands

400
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: a job as an analyst for Locus Point Capital.

401
00:24:59,680 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: Wow.

402
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 2: What you were seeing is from that We are Soccer

403
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 2: at Michigan facebook page.

404
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: The little brother now did a shining star? Listen?

405
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 3: A former college soccer player is being charged with brutally

406
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 3: murdering his younger brother and setting their family cat on

407
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: fire in a ritzy apartment just steps from Princeton University.

408
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 3: Thirty one year old Matthew Hrkan is now in police

409
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: custody in Mercer County, New Jersey, after reportedly using a

410
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,479
Speaker 3: golf club and a kitchen knife to bludgeon and slash

411
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 3: baby brother Joseph Herkin, who is an even more successful athlete,

412
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: to death. Police sources say the youngest Hurricane was missing

413
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 3: an eye, and a bloody plate and fork were found

414
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 3: not far from his body.

415
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: Straight out to Sam Bassett joining us, a veteran trial

416
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: lawyer out of Texas. What do you make of the

417
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 2: fact that both murder weapons were readily accessible. It's not like, again,

418
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 2: let's use coburger, he had to buy the murder weapon.

419
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: Who is presumed innocent until proven guilty by the way,

420
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: he had to buy the murder weapon on Amazon and

421
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: stealthily sneak over to the murder scene. In this case,

422
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: both weapons were right there, the golf club and the knife.

423
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: That actually adds to the legal formula here.

424
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 5: I think it does.

425
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 6: I think it adds to the speculation that I might

426
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 6: have been a rage attack, something that triggered him to

427
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 6: be really angry at his brother and just go off

428
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 6: on him, and he just didn't stop too.

429
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 2: Doctor Jan Gorniac, former medical examiner in Vegas.

430
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: Grniac way in.

431
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 8: So, we were talking before about the eye gouging being

432
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 8: post mortem.

433
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: I believe it post mortem.

434
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 8: It didn't happen during the fight because as humans, we're

435
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 8: gonna we're gonna fight. We're going to fight back.

436
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: Also where I said it, also, it's I.

437
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 8: Guess my job is easier than the detectives or the

438
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 8: attorneys because we're just involved with the cause and the

439
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 8: manner of death. So we know the cause, you know,

440
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 8: blunt for's injury, for in injuries, the manner of death

441
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 8: is homicide. We don't deal in with the wise, but

442
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 8: as humans we always want to know. So but we're

443
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 8: sitting here trying to rationalize irrational behavior. And but that's

444
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 8: what we do because it doesn't make sense. So we're

445
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 8: trying to make sense of it and try to come

446
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 8: up with a story. But I also have to say

447
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 8: we haven't talked about mental health. I think mental health

448
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 8: plays a big role in this case. We don't know

449
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 8: his mental status. Maybe he, like you said, didn't get

450
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 8: along with his brother, but there could be some underlying

451
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 8: mental health issues that he is undiagnosed untreated. But there's

452
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 8: something else definitely going on.

453
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 2: Joining me is a renowned for a medical examiner, doctor Gorniac.

454
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: Did you specialize at any point in psychiatry or psychology?

455
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: I did not.

456
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 2: I did not, Okay, but yes, you are saying there's

457
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: a mental health issue. Can I ask, do you have

458
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: a scentilla of evidence such as a prior diagnosis, treatment

459
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: prescriptions from a doctor that he may he the alleged

460
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: killer may have had.

461
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: Do you know anything at all regarding that? I don't.

462
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 8: I'm just putting it another layer into the why because

463
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 8: we're trying to figure out what's case.

464
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: So you know nothing at all about his mental health.

465
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: Yet you are assuming because.

466
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: He killed his brother and gots his eye out that

467
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 2: he must have a mental illness.

468
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: Is that in your supposition?

469
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 8: That is not it? I said, we cannot not think

470
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 8: about it. We have to think about it. We're thinking

471
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 8: about everything else. But we do have a mental health

472
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 8: issue in this country that there's a lot of people

473
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 8: that aren't treated, and we have to make sure that

474
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 8: that's not It's not the why, it's not an excuse.

475
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 8: But this obviously is not normal behavior. You I mean,

476
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 8: I grew up with a sister. Put up, doctor Gorniac.

477
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: Yet again, doctor gordias on behalf of all murder victims

478
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: across our country. Do you believe murdering anyone, let's just say,

479
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: an infant lying in its crib?

480
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: Do you think that no normal behavior? Okay? No, then

481
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: somehow because the eyes gouge out, you.

482
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: Are saying that he may, with no evidence whatsoever, have

483
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: a mental health issue.

484
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: And in my world.

485
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: What that means is he will go to a treatment

486
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: facility and ultimately walk free in about eighteen months.

487
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: That's what means. Dr Gorniac.

488
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 8: No, No, that's not what I'm saying. So because there

489
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 8: is also you have and I'm not a lawyer. I

490
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 8: don't try cases, but I know there's things about guilty

491
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 8: by reason of insanity. I'm not saying he's insane, but

492
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 8: there has to be. We can't none.

493
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: Why did you bring it up?

494
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 5: There's things I.

495
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: Thought you're not saying. Then why did you bring it up?

496
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: Let me something me with patch media?

497
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: Karen. Isn't it true? And this is a lightning round, Karen.

498
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: Isn't it true that the alleged killer, the brother the

499
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: middle child.

500
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: Called nine one one? Isn't that true? Yes? Yes, he

501
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: called nine one one.

502
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: And isn't it also true when the police arrived, he

503
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: opened the door and essentially led them according to the

504
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: post to, there's the body right, Yes, yes.

505
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: A family tragedy in New Jersey. A Princeton murder suspect

506
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: kills his younger brother and his cat with a knife

507
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: and golf club.

508
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: So curious if he had the wherewithal to know what

509
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: he did was wrong and report it to nine one

510
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: one an usher in the police. Sam Bassett, this is

511
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: a yes no, because I know you're going to want

512
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: to argue this till you're blue in the fact. But

513
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: isn't our law in the American jurisprudence insanity is based

514
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: on the old MacNaughton rule that was brought over in

515
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: our common law from Great Britain. And the McNaughton rule

516
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: of insanity is litmus and it is did Purp know

517
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: right from wrong at the time of the incident, not

518
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 2: now that he's lawyered up and they're saying, hey, that crazy.

519
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: At the time of the incident, he had the wherewithal

520
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: to know what he did was wrong and call nine

521
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: one one and bring in the police.

522
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: Isn't that true?

523
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 6: That is true.

524
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

525
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: A grand jury set to convene in the case of

526
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: a star athlete charged in his own brother's murder in

527
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: a Mercer County Superior courtroom. Felony prosecutors stated they planned

528
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: to take Hurtkin's case to a grand jury to get

529
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: an indictment. That way, in the nick of time, they

530
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: beat a probable cause hearing scheduled in the next few weeks,

531
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 2: the defendant Hurtkin agreed to pre trial detention. What does

532
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 2: that mean that the prosecution did not need to go

533
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: to court to show evidence proving why he should be

534
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: held behind bars while he awaits trial. Now appearing virtually

535
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: from jail, He's seemed polite during a brief appearance, telling

536
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: the judge good afternoon. Yet I'm sure he's going to

537
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: claim mental instability. He knew enough to say thank you

538
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: when the judge told him to have a good day.

539
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: As the hearing ended. To doctor Jan Gorniac, former medical

540
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: examiner in Vegas, I don't tell you how to perform

541
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: an autopsy.

542
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: Do I Have I ever told you how to perform

543
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: an autopsy?

544
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: No?

545
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 8: As, But I'm also a physician. I'm not just an autopsist.

546
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 8: I am a dog first. So when I do autopsies,

547
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 8: we look at not only I mean, obviously I'm not

548
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 8: going to say whether someone is guilty or not, but

549
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 8: I also have to look at the medical history social

550
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 8: history of my patient also. So I just say that

551
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 8: my patient, right, so I will.

552
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 2: I'm not you're talking about mental health issue on the

553
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: alleged killer.

554
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: That's not your patient, is it? It's not, but.

555
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 8: I'm saying, I'm saying he's crazy mental.

556
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: I have anxiety.

557
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 8: That is a mental health disorders anxiety right now, but

558
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 8: I'm saying so depression, anxiety, personality disorder. But there's it's

559
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 8: there's something else in my opinion, right And I'm not diagnosing.

560
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 8: I'm not saying he's insane. I'm not saying he didn't

561
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 8: know right from wrong. But it's part of you're trying

562
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 8: to figure out what else is in his history? So

563
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 8: what else is in his history? And I think medical, mental, social,

564
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 8: it's very important when you're going to look at the

565
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 8: totality of why someone did something.

566
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: How about his main as hell? And he is consumed mind, body,

567
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: and soul with decades of jealousy for his shining star

568
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: little brother. What about that's not an illness?

569
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 8: But well maybe it's a coping. Why isn't he Why

570
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 8: isn't he able to cope with that? Why isn't he

571
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 8: able to say congratulations together and not be that jealous?

572
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: I understand, I understand that. I'm not arguing. I'm not

573
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: to say I get.

574
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 8: It, but I'm just saying we're trying to rationalize irrational

575
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 8: behavior and I'm just saying, there's many layers to everybody,

576
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 8: and we have to look at his social history. You know,

577
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 8: does he abuse drugs? I don't know.

578
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: Does he use alcohol? We don't know that.

579
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: We'll just child my goodness, we have no evidence of

580
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 2: drug in and just fy before you bard that out again.

581
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: Volunt use of drugs or alcohol are not a defense

582
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: under the moll. I don't care if he does have

583
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: a drug problem. I don't care if he drinks himself

584
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 2: silly breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That is not an excuse.

585
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: How about this Kalishewsky consumed with jealousy starting from day

586
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: one when that child, the baby brother, the murder victim,

587
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 2: is brought home from the hospital.

588
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: And Mommy's loving on it and daddy's loving on it.

589
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: And then he gets outshined at the soccer field, he

590
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 2: gets outshined in school. The brother gets this great job.

591
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: He doesn't. In fact, can I see the picture the

592
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: alleged killer posted the day before the murder, while the

593
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: brother's out working, the murder victim the purpose at home

594
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: taking selfies of him with a cat toy.

595
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: There you go, this is him.

596
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 2: While the brother is out making a living, he's at

597
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: home taking selfies with a cat toy Kelishevski.

598
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 10: Well, the bottom line is, and I think the medical

599
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 10: examiner was getting into this, it's not usual for her

600
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 10: to do an autopsy and a murder victim where the

601
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 10: eye's been gouged out, likely post mortem, So you can

602
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 10: go with the theory of this is a jealous brother rage.

603
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 10: But there's a lot of weird stuff going on beyond

604
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 10: just a murder that happened, and I think those are

605
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 10: the things that people are noticing more than the straightforward

606
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 10: murder case. And I think that's why these questions of

607
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 10: mental health comes up, because of these sort of unusual,

608
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 10: weird things are outside of just a normal I'm jealous

609
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 10: of my brother and I hate him and I'm.

610
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 5: Going to kill him.

611
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: I think he's dead. He's been shot.

612
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 7: He's been shot. Yes, hello, ma'am, you said your husband

613
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 7: was shot here?

614
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 5: How long ago?

615
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: Probably ten fifteen minutes ago, ten minutes ago, maybe ten

616
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 1: minutes ago. He was shot. Maybe he's by whom my son,

617
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: who's nuts, But I didn't know he was just nuts.

618
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: Another spoiled rich brat preppie killer. That one is Thomas

619
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: Gilbert Junior, who guns down, his father sends his mom

620
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: out for a sandwich, and mommy trots off to the deli,

621
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 2: and while she's gone, he guns down dad because dad

622
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: finally was going to cut off his allowance Thomas Gilbert Jr.

623
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: And now we've got another spoiled rich Bratt who murders

624
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: his brother. Now a lot has been made even of

625
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: our renowned medical examiner, doctor Jane Gorniac, who ventures to

626
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: guess maybe he is mentally ill, maybe he has a

627
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: drug or alcohol problem, or maybe he's consumed with jealousy

628
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: and finally kills his roommate, his.

629
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: Own little brother.

630
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: Karen Wall, what can you tell me about the alleged

631
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: killer's poetry? But for hold on, I've taken the liberty

632
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 2: of recording some of it.

633
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: Listen.

634
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 9: Is that your voice or is that my voice? Was

635
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 9: that the work of my hands? Or was that the

636
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 9: work of your hands? Do you like to watch me suffer?

637
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 9: Do you like to crush me with pain? It disturbingly continues. Now,

638
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 9: what is it that you want me to do this time?

639
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 9: Do you want me to burn everything down? Must I

640
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 9: sacrifice everything to your altar? Is there not enough ashes already?

641
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: Okay?

642
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: I just exoriated doctor Gorniac for giving a psychiatric opinion.

643
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: But from my vantage point, he the alleged killer that

644
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 2: murdered his little brother, is complaining about the little brother.

645
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: Do you like to crush me with pain? Do you

646
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: like to watch me suffer? What do you want me

647
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: to do?

648
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: This time? Burn everything down?

649
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: Must I sacrifice everything to your altar?

650
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 1: Yeah? That's how I read it. Karen Wall.

651
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: How much bizarre poetry has the alleged killer written?

652
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: There's reams of it online. There's at least two that

653
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: we were able to find that I was able to

654
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 1: find in searching. But as.

655
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 4: The police detective said before, it was hours of searching

656
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 4: to find anything to even give any hint of what

657
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 4: Matt is about and who he is and what is

658
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 4: going on.

659
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: The poetry is very disturbing.

660
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: Look at these excerpts that he has posted on Facebook. Quote,

661
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 2: he still has a pulse, blood still flows through his veins,

662
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 2: but something's wrapped around him, squeezing him, choking him, suffocating him.

663
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: Blood oozes out of his eyes, He convulses, he doesn't stop.

664
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 2: He's lost, he's asleep, he's dead. His body's surrounded by fire.

665
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 2: He set the cat on fire. The fires are blazing

666
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 2: inside of him. Now, what is it that you want

667
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: me to do this time? Do you want me to

668
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: burn everything down? Straight out to former homicide detective Houston PD,

669
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: president of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, Feel Waters. Now,

670
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: a lot of people may do contortions about his mental

671
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: health as an excuse for what he did. But he

672
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: called nine to one one, he ushered police into the body.

673
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: What I would describe this as is wishful thinking. Blood

674
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: coming out of your eyes, fire around you. He's describing

675
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: the murder scene before he did it.

676
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 5: I would agree to a degree of that. I want

677
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 5: to come to the defense a little bit to the

678
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 5: good doctor there the discussion about mental health in this thing.

679
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 5: As a homicide detective, where we're going to kind of

680
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 5: determine is what happened and what was theor how was

681
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 5: how did that occur? What was the timeline on this thing?

682
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 5: You know, we keep talking about the I being gouged out,

683
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 5: and other than it being said that, I don't know that.

684
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 5: What so I want to see is the autopsy. Did

685
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 5: the eye come out because he was beating him with

686
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 5: a golf club and then once he saw that, then

687
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 5: he went ahead and finished the job. So there's a

688
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 5: lot of stuff going on here. One thing leads to

689
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 5: the other. And when I would attend the autopsy, which

690
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 5: I did in every homicide case I haven't did with

691
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 5: a doctor, and we would discuss what I found at

692
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 5: the scene. So it's all part of the same formula.

693
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 5: So the discussion about mental health is going to be

694
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 5: part of the investigative discussion.

695
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 2: Let me just be clear where I'm coming from here.

696
00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: A mental defect will not negate intent to kill. I

697
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: am standing for the crime victim.

698
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: You may think me.

699
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: Harsh, but what matters is justice for this crime victim.

700
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: The constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to

701
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: protect the crime victim. Also, we are learning the Princeton

702
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: Preppy murder suspects parents were no shows when their son

703
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 2: appeared in court.

704
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds.

705
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: And to find out what the grand jury has to say.

706
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 2: Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,