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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from coast to coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: Scott, you've spent a lot of time out on the

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Speaker 2: ranges during the roundups, and just watch the herds themselves

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Speaker 2: when no one else is around. Can you talk to

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Speaker 2: us about the direct effects and impacts from these round ups?

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Speaker 2: You know, BLM tries to keep the public as far

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Speaker 2: away as possible, but every once in a while, you know,

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Speaker 2: groups will get managed to get up close and get

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Speaker 2: video clips and then we see it how horrific it is.

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Speaker 2: And you know, once you see those images, you can't

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Speaker 2: forget them. What happens to pregnant mayors and little foals

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Speaker 2: and stallions are trying to get get free. You know,

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Speaker 2: talk to me about the roundups, what really happens, efforts

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Speaker 2: to keep the public from seeing it, and how the

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Speaker 2: herds are affected, the bands, the families in.

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Speaker 1: The long run.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's probably the worst part, George of the

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Speaker 3: Bureau of Land Management disinformation campaign, the the you know,

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Speaker 3: the constant refrain that they are committed to the humane

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Speaker 3: handling of these wild horses and burrows during these helicopter roundups.

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Speaker 3: And I call it gas lighting because all you have

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Speaker 3: to do is watch. You know. Wild Horse Education is

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Speaker 3: a group run by Laura Lee, who, in my view

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Speaker 3: is sort of the prototypical wild horse advocate. And nobody

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Speaker 3: has more skin in the game than Laura Lee. She

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Speaker 3: lives there in Nevada. She's been following this issue, you know,

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Speaker 3: for for just for decades, and you know, she has

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Speaker 3: done incredible work documenting the roundup. She goes out, she

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Speaker 3: or someone on her team and they videotape these roundups.

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Speaker 3: You know, here's the thing. What people love about these

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Speaker 3: wild herds is the stories. We love the stories of

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Speaker 3: the families. We love following individual horses as as they

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Speaker 3: go through their lives. We love, you know, the sort

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Speaker 3: of the soap opera out there on the range as

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Speaker 3: stallions are, you know, vying for mayors and young stallions

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Speaker 3: are trying to get established, and you know, watching a

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Speaker 3: newborn full stand for the first time and then you know,

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Speaker 3: just within hours of its birth birth racing across the

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Speaker 3: range with its family. Those are the kind of things

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Speaker 3: that really inspire, uh, those of us who love and

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Speaker 3: value these herds. Uh. And and so when we see

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Speaker 3: videos taken by wild Horse Education or some of the

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Speaker 3: other groups that are out there, you know, videotaping and

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Speaker 3: documenting these around us. We see an absolute disregard for

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Speaker 3: these stories and for the animals themselves. You know, we

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Speaker 3: often it's obvious that that these families are very close

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Speaker 3: with each other, that the family bands are sort of

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Speaker 3: at the very heart of wild horse uh society uh.

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Speaker 3: And yet the Ural of Land Management just gossed at

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Speaker 3: the notion. They think it's just ridiculous to think that

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Speaker 3: these animals have families, that they care about each other,

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Speaker 3: that it's traumatic when they get separated and split up.

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Speaker 3: And yet you know what we see all day every

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Speaker 3: day when these round ups are happening, are you know,

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Speaker 3: horses that are just traumatized. Not only are they physically

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Speaker 3: traumatized from being chased by these helicopters through the desert

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Speaker 3: for miles and miles and miles before running into traps,

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Speaker 3: but they are psychologically traumatized from being separated. And we

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Speaker 3: just saw a really good example of this in Wyoming

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Speaker 3: the mccolla peaks herd of horses, which is a very

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Speaker 3: small herd that the BLM has set a policy that

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Speaker 3: will eventually lead to the extinction of this of this

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Speaker 3: herd of horses, very colorful, splashy colors, herd that is

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Speaker 3: easily accessible, that is popular and beloved, and a young

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Speaker 3: was born. A little Philly was born just a few

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Speaker 3: months ago. Her name was Thora, named after her father

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Speaker 3: Thor And what made her special was that she had

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Speaker 3: the same very unique, sort of very one in a

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Speaker 3: million markings as her father. And you know, advocates from

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Speaker 3: all around the world said, please leave this little one alone,

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Speaker 3: please let her stay out on the range. She was

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Speaker 3: beloved by her both of her parents. There's some great

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Speaker 3: photography by Sandy Fisty, Carol Walker and others. A little

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Speaker 3: baby Thora with her family, the entire band, you know,

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Speaker 3: kept her safe, and the Bureau of Land Management saw

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Speaker 3: that they saw people saying, please let this little one

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Speaker 3: remain wild and free, and they conducted a bait and

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Speaker 3: trap operation and they caught her. And they are licking

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Speaker 3: their chops at the idea of the adopt auction when

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Speaker 3: that little Philly, I mean, people are just devastated that

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Speaker 3: this little baby full was taken from her mother, from

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Speaker 3: her family band and is now sitting in a filthy corral,

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Speaker 3: standing up to her knees in muck, alone, scared confused,

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Speaker 3: and the BLM knew what the reaction would be. And

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Speaker 3: they know how much that little Philly is loved and

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Speaker 3: cared for, and they're looking their chops because they know

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Speaker 3: that they are going to make a lot of money

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Speaker 3: when it's time to put her up for auction. And

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Speaker 3: that's the kind of just nefarious thinking that we've got

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Speaker 3: in charge of the wild horse and burro program. The

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Speaker 3: program is not populated by people who know or care

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Speaker 3: about wild horses. The people who populate the BLM's wild

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Speaker 3: horse and burro program are first and foremost livestock people,

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Speaker 3: people from the livestock industry, and they don't see any

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Speaker 3: difference between a free roaming wild horse and a trespassing steer.

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Speaker 3: It's all the same to them, and they treat these

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Speaker 3: animals accordingly the witness.

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Speaker 2: It almost seems like they go after historic herds, beloved herds,

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Speaker 2: beloved horses once they figure out about that time, because

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Speaker 2: they want to hear people's scream. They want to hear the.

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Speaker 3: And they want and they want to show the taxpayers

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Speaker 3: who's in charge and whose boss. And you know, it's

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Speaker 3: an outrage to think that we are paying their salaries,

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Speaker 3: and you know, on the McCulla Peaks Herd. You had

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Speaker 3: sixty one hundred American taxpayers submit comments in opposition to

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Speaker 3: this round us plan, comments submitted by organizations that represent

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Speaker 3: hundreds of thousands of American taxpayers. And did the BLM

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Speaker 3: listen to all of those thousands and thousands of American taxpayers. No,

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Speaker 3: they heeded the wishes of six ranchers who their cattle

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Speaker 3: and sheep on that mccola Peaks Wild Horse Herd Management area.

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Speaker 3: So instead of listening and heating the views of all

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Speaker 3: of those taxpayers, instead they're taking care of six ranchers

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Speaker 3: who want more graphs for their cattle and sheep. And

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Speaker 3: that is the calculus, and that is what we're up against.

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Speaker 3: And like I said, it is it is basically an

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Speaker 3: industry that this agency has built to enrich a very few,

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Speaker 3: and it is a system that is built to basically

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Speaker 3: ignore and thumb the nose at the American taxpayers who

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Speaker 3: want wild horses and burrows wild and free out on

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Speaker 3: our public lands.

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Speaker 2: I think for the first twenty years that I covered

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Speaker 2: wildhorse issues, there were BLM meta policy they wanted. They

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Speaker 2: had to have a public meeting, you know, for a

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Speaker 2: particular roundup, they wanted public input and they'd have an

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Speaker 2: actual meeting where people would show up, and the you know,

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Speaker 2: the public reaction was certainly predictable, is overwhelmingly in favor

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Speaker 2: of no roundups, leave them alone. The BLM, you know,

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Speaker 2: eventually stopped doing that altogether and submit comments and the

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Speaker 2: comments make absolutely no difference whatsoever. I mean, the public

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Speaker 2: sentiment is overwhelming in all of these roundups, and BLM

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Speaker 2: always ignores it. And I wonder how did they get

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Speaker 2: away with it? Year after year. Administrations come and go.

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Speaker 2: There's a Republican, there's a White you know in the

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Speaker 2: White House, there's a Democrat Congress. Different parties control different houses,

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Speaker 2: and it's always the same. No matter when Congress steps

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Speaker 2: up and says we want this to end, it continues.

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Speaker 3: How is it possible, I you know, you've hit the

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Speaker 3: nail on the head. And it's because there is a self,

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Speaker 3: self perpetuating system that the BLM has created that basically

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Speaker 3: is doing the will of these multinational corporations like JBS,

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Speaker 3: the world's largest meat company, headquartered in Brazil, Smithfield headquartered

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Speaker 3: in China. These are meat companies that are ultimately pulling

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Speaker 3: the streams on you know, how are how our grazing

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Speaker 3: policy is set. And things were terrible for wild horses

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Speaker 3: and burrows under George W. Bush, they were terrible under

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Speaker 3: Barack Obama, they were terrible under Donald Trump. And now

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden's administration has basically doubled down on all of

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Speaker 3: the terrible policies. And we have had more horses rounded up,

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Speaker 3: more horses killed in the helicopter round ups, more horses

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Speaker 3: and burroughs landing in the slaughter pipeline than ever before.

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Speaker 3: And we've got an administration that claims to be all about,

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Speaker 3: you know, conserving nature and fighting climate change. They talk

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Speaker 3: about fighting climate change, and yet they're clearing off wild

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Speaker 3: horses that actually fight wild buyers and are good for

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Speaker 3: the environment and replacing them with methane belching cattle and sheep.

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Speaker 3: And it's just, you know, it's again, it's it is

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Speaker 3: how our system is set up, and it is very

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Speaker 3: difficult even for members of Congress. There are members of

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Speaker 3: Congress like Nevada's own Dina Titis, who has long been

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Speaker 3: a champion and a friend of wild horses. She has

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Speaker 3: sponsored the Wild Horse and Borough Protection Act, which is

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Speaker 3: Hr three six five six a bill pending in Congress

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Speaker 3: that would ban the use of aircraft to manage wild

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Speaker 3: horses and boroughs and force the federal government to find

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Speaker 3: more humane alternatives. But even with a champion like that,

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Speaker 3: you know, it is a very very powerful cabal that

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Speaker 3: is setting policy for our public lands and for grazing policy.

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Speaker 3: And that is how the BLM gets away with it,

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Speaker 3: because it gets the political cover it needs from from

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Speaker 3: those very powerful interests.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, no matter how much noise the public makes,

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Speaker 2: the mustang loving public raises hell, Members of Congress raise hell.

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Speaker 2: Dina Titles introduces legislation to ban these horrible helicopter roundups

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Speaker 2: media coverage. BLM seems immune to it. They almost are

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Speaker 2: haughty and laughing about it. And yes, I swear sometimes

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Speaker 2: it seems like they get enjoyment out of making the

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Speaker 2: wild horse community howl, which is why they target particularly

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Speaker 2: beloved herds.

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Speaker 3: And particularly beloved individual animals too. And you know, and

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Speaker 3: the thing is, every time there's a terrible incident, like

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Speaker 3: you know, a last summer, the antelope complex round up

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Speaker 3: in central Nevada, a beautiful palamino stallion named mister Sunshine,

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Speaker 3: who was beloved by the advocates. He attempted to flee

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Speaker 3: the trap. He jumped over the panels and when he

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Speaker 3: came down, he just shattered his back legs shattered it.

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Speaker 3: So there is this beautiful Palomino wild stallion on three legs,

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Speaker 3: and the BLM sent a helicopter and riders on horseback

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Speaker 3: and they chase that poor guy who tried to run

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Speaker 3: away on three legs for thirty five minutes before they

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Speaker 3: finally put him out of his misery. And when that,

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Speaker 3: whenever something really terrible like that is documented and shown

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Speaker 3: to the public, the BLM comes out with its disinformation

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Speaker 3: and it's gas lighting. And the first thing you'll see

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Speaker 3: as a press release saying BLM study confirms that helicopter

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Speaker 3: roundups are the most humane management tool. It's like they are,

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Speaker 3: you know, that's the one thing they do really good

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Speaker 3: is their pr And you know, thankfully, it looks like

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Speaker 3: maybe we've got federal courts are starting to wake up

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Speaker 3: to this. Laura Lee and her group wild Horse Education,

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Speaker 3: along with other groups including Animal Wellness Action and Center

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Speaker 3: for His Main Economy that I used to work for,

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Speaker 3: just received a positive ruling from a federal District court

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Speaker 3: judge that in a lawsuit that was filed after a

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Speaker 3: little foal it suffered a broken leg as it was

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Speaker 3: being pursued by helicopter. And even after that little baby

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Speaker 3: had snapped its front leg, still the BLM helicopters chased

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Speaker 3: it until finally they drove out there and put that

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Speaker 3: poor little thing out of its misery. But that is

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Speaker 3: that incident prompted Dinotitis's bill, but it also prompted this lawsuit,

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Speaker 3: and we won. We won that lawsuit, and what the

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Speaker 3: judge said is the BLM has to go through the

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Speaker 3: steps that is required by federal regulations and by the

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Speaker 3: Wild Free Roaming Horses and Burrows Act. It has to

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Speaker 3: have a management plan for these wild horse herd management areas.

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Speaker 3: It can't just say, oh, well, we did one ten

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Speaker 3: years ago, and so we're going to still rely on that.

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Speaker 3: Know that, the judge said, you know, you have to

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Speaker 3: give the public an opportunity to comment. That opportunity to

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Speaker 3: comment needs to mean something. And so now the BLM

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Speaker 3: has to go back and do a whole new herd

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Speaker 3: management plan for the Pancake complex, and that of course

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Speaker 3: sets the valuable precedent for wildheads across the West.

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Speaker 2: It seems like you could file a boilerplate lawsuit again

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Speaker 2: to stop every roundup and make them justify it because

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Speaker 2: they really don't do their homework on any of them,

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Speaker 2: where you challenge the herd management plan and the numbers

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Speaker 2: that they're throwing around and make them step up to

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Speaker 2: the plate improving.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's why we need Laura Lee in this fight,

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Speaker 3: because no one fights harder in court than Laura Lee

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Speaker 3: and wildforse Education. And by the way, if your listeners

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Speaker 3: are looking for a group that is out there doing

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Speaker 3: this hard work and winning and documenting the terrible mistreatment,

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Speaker 3: definitely support Wildhorse Education. I mean because this lawsuit, this

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Speaker 3: addresses the very arrogance that you were just referring to

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Speaker 3: a few minutes ago, George, This sort of just this

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Speaker 3: attitude that the BLM has that they can do whatever

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Speaker 3: the heck they want and not have any accountability to anyone. Well,

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Speaker 3: now we've got to judge that says, actually, you are accountable, BLM,

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Speaker 3: and you are going to have to go through the

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Speaker 3: process that is required by a lot. You can no

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Speaker 3: longer just kind of shrug and say, oh, we're going

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Speaker 3: to do it this way, because this is the way

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Speaker 3: we've always done it. No, you need to have a

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Speaker 3: management plan for these herd management areas. You need to

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Speaker 3: It can't just be about round us. You know, the

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Speaker 3: Wild Free Roaming Horses and Burrows Act is about more

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Speaker 3: than just round us. It has to be about maintaining

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Speaker 3: healthy horses and maintaining healthy range lands.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: There have been a number of studies reviews of the program,

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Speaker 2: some expensive studies too, that looked at adoptions, that looked

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Speaker 2: at fertility control. The National Academy of Sciences did a

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Speaker 2: big review and made all kinds of recommendations and BLM

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Speaker 2: goes uh huh uh, yeah, that's really interesting, and then

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Speaker 2: goes back to normal fertility control exactly right. You know,

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Speaker 2: fertility control works. There's money set aside for it, and

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Speaker 2: they just won't spend it. They won't do it, or

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Speaker 2: they'll do pay lip service to it. And that's very

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Speaker 2: little of.

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Speaker 3: It, that's right, you know. And so and so you

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Speaker 3: know what we're trying to do, George, is we're trying

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Speaker 3: to wake Congress up to the mismanagement and the lies

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Speaker 3: by the Bureau of Land Management. And that's why I

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Speaker 3: ask people call your members of Congress, call two zero

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Speaker 3: two two, two four three one two one. Ask for

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Speaker 3: your United States representative and both you as senators, tell

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Speaker 3: them you care about this issue. You're an American taxpayer

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Speaker 3: who supports wild horses and burrows on public lands and

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Speaker 3: support the Wild Horse and Burrough Protection Act. Let's get

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Speaker 3: some protection in. And I would also make note that

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Speaker 3: you know this isn't the only lawsuit that is pending.

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Speaker 3: Laura Lee has also filed lawsuits against the BLM so

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Speaker 3: that the Comprehensive Animal Wealthfare Plan, which are the rules

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Speaker 3: that the BLM wrote for itself to ensure humane handling

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Speaker 3: of these animals, is actually enforceable. Because again, whenever these

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Speaker 3: terrible incidents happen, horses are killed, babyfols or orphaned, all

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Speaker 3: the terrible things that we see, the BLM says, oh,

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Speaker 3: but we have these rules, we have this comprehensive Animal

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Speaker 3: welfare Plan. So we have and it's not enforceable.

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