WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 102 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.640 Media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.920 let you know this is a compilation episode. So every 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.280 episode of the week that just happened is here in 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:16.279 one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:18.360 to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:20.880 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:22.639 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:28.040 you can make your own decisions. Hey, everyone, Robert Evans here, 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.720 Welcome to It could happen here, as I'm sure you're aware, 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.800 at this point over the weekend, somewhere between five hundred 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.360 and one thousand Hamas fighters. Those numbers have a lot 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:40.960 of flex in them. It's really unclear at this moment. 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:43.120 That just kind of my guess based on what I've 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:46.960 seen so far, carried out a successful infiltration and sneak 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.400 attack across a wide swath of the Israeli border. Their 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.320 methods were varied from motorized hang gliders and boats to 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.680 mobile columns of technicals and bulldozers which they use to 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.720 breach fence lines. Surprise seems to have been newly total 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.319 in their worst intelligence failure since the nineteen seventies. Many 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:09.000 IDF troops were caught literally in their underwear. Casualties seem 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.720 to have been highest among the police, who were unprepared 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.560 for militants armed with conventional military weapons. Casualty accounts remain 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.360 heavily in flux, so I will not labor over them here. 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.200 Suffice to say that the best information at the time 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.920 that I'm writing this suggests at least one thousand dead 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.280 in the first day or so of fighting. It appears 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:32.640 at the moment to be fairly evenly split between Israeli soldiers, police, 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:37.040 and civilians, as well as Hamas fighters and Palestinian civilians. 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.319 We can expect the death toll among Palestinians to rise 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:44.640 steadily in the near future as the bombing of Gaza escalates. 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.160 It is very clear, though, that the Hamas did not 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.800 strike only military targets, and Israelis and Palestinians are not 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:51.920 the only people killed. 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:54.000 Right now, there are reports. 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.040 Coming in that a music festival, it was some sort 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:00.200 of sytrance psychedelia festival in southern Israel, on land that 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:05.640 was possibly illegally occupied, was attacked by Hamas militants. Something 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.400 like two hundred and sixty people are confirmed to have 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.680 been killed. There's pretty hideous video of a young German 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.640 woman in her twenties, her corpse stripped, being paraded around 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:20.160 by fighters. It's very ugly stuff. There's also unclear videos 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.839 of other killings. I've seen one video of a man 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.880 beating another man's head in it's claimed to be a 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.720 HUMAS militant and civilian clothes beating a Filipino guest worker 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.600 in Israel to death. There's no actual evidence that I've 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.800 seen as to who either person in the video is, 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:38.520 and a lot of the videos of horrible things that 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.800 are spreading right now are just that, videos that definitely 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.440 show violence, but that are extremely unclear as to who 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.000 is perpetrating the violence and why. We do, of course 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.200 know that hummas targeted a number of civilians. A significant 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.600 number were killed, including people in their homes, and unknown 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.640 numbers of people were kidnapped and taken back across the 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.880 border to be ransomed later for imprisoned fighters and Palestinian civilians. 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.480 This has happened before in previous escalations of conflict in 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.520 the area. It's not a new tactic, and the videos 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:13.960 of it are of course horrifying. The capturing and killing 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.360 of civilians is by any definition of the term, a 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:20.040 war crime. Israel's response has been horrifying as well, and 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.320 writ on a larger scale. Significant chunks of Gaza have 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.160 already been leveled in air strikes. At least one hospital 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:29.400 has been targeted, killing a nurse. Israel has cut off 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:33.560 power to Gasam, an active collective punishment that also qualifies 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.400 as a war crime. That term has less weight than 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.960 it used to these days. Many of us in the 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.520 West grew up with illusions about a rules based international order. 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.760 The crimes occurring now will continue to erode the idea 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.800 that war might ever have limits, Like whitewater cutting a 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.440 path through stone. I try to stay plugged into such things, 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.160 and I become aware of this most recent eruption as 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.600 it happened. I spent several hours trying to understand the 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:02.000 early open source dilligence, watching people that I trusted in 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.600 the region post videos that they could verify, and then 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:07.960 I went to sleep. When I woke up, I saw 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.960 the expected river of bloodthirst on social media. This is 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.360 also nothing new. The Internet has not created this behavior. 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:17.719 You may have read when you were in high school 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.520 that early in the US Civil War, picnicking civilians would 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.880 show up to ogle the Battle of Manassas. Certain aspects 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.279 of online culture have, however, lent a deeper ugliness to 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.440 the affair. I noticed this for the first time during 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.839 the fighting against ISIS. I reported from Mosel several times 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:36.880 and kept up with various Telegram channels, WhatsApp groups, and 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.919 Twitter accounts that shared footage and updates from the field. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.440 A subculture developed around this, fueled by a mix of 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:47.840 professional seeking intel and amateurs, some of whom later became experts, 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.240 and others of whom simply liked watching the violence. All 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:55.320 of us experienced a degree of desensitization, and Gallo's humor 0:04:55.480 --> 0:05:00.400 was common. Researchers would share their favorite ISIS nachets, actively 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.880 Jihati theme music, and throw Arabic phrases that they'd read 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:08.320 in issues of Debiq, Isis's magazine into daily conversation. Lines 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:12.480 of dialogue from different videos of combat became catchphrases. The 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:14.760 best known of these was probably a video released in 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.280 April of twenty sixteen, which showed a group of four 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.400 ISIS fighters battling Kurdish troops north of Mosul. These guys 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.320 were not overly familiar with their weaponry, much of which 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.800 had recently been looted from Iraqi army stores. One of 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.400 the fighters in the video, Abu Hajar, fucks up constantly, 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.720 at one point roasting his own men with the back 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.160 blast of a rocket launcher. The timing on it is 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:39.440 pretty perfect, and it's basically impossible not to laugh a 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.000 little at this. His comrade shouts a now infamous line 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.920 at him, what is wrong with you? Abu Hajar. The 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.240 man who filmed the video dies, of course, and so 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.080 did a bunch of other people that day. Now, these 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:54.640 guys are Isis fighters, so it wasn't hard to laugh 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:56.919 at the footage and move on. I did, and so 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.440 did many other people. I still chuckle sometime at it. 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.240 Of late, though, I've come to find the laughter more unsettling. 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.080 This started after the expanded Russian invasion of Ukraine. I 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.640 began to see videos of wounded, dying, and dead Russian conscripts. 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:16.200 These were often close in gory shots, devoid of broader information, 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:20.080 and shot purely for entertainments. One thing to watch combat 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:21.960 videos in which people die if it gives you an 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.479 understanding of the nature of combat in that theater of war. 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.479 The kinds of weapons, use the efficacy of certain tactics. 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.560 It's another to just look at a bleeding teenager as 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.080 he slowly dies and joke about it. Now, some of 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.760 the folks who were laughing are people I knew Ukrainian 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.000 civilians and volunteers, and I cannot blame them, and do 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.000 not blame them for taking satisfaction or even mirth in 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:47.400 the death of an invader. That is how war works, 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:50.359 that is how war has always worked. It is foolish 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.560 and cruel to ask for decorum from people under siege. 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.520 I'm sure many Goasins feel the same about footage now 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:00.440 flooding the Internet from this most recent attack. But many 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.440 of the people cheering at dead Russian conscripts were not 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.040 soldiers and not civilians who were being shelled by that state, 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:11.040 but were random Americans, middle class, suburban war aficionados, far 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.440 from the danger, who spent time, who took a moment 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.840 from their day to joke about suffering soldiers in a 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.880 foreign country. A mirror of that behavior now proliferates as well. 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.360 It curdled my gut then and it still does. But 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.000 my feelings here are immaterial. I have come to believe 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.360 that this behavior is impossible to avoid or even mitigate. 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.560 To a very substantial degree. It also appears to be 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:39.080 nearly universal. Social media has made barbarism easier than ever 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.480 to monetize. As the years have gone on, every new 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.880 eruption of violence around the world brings with it more 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:49.760 footage faster. Ocent open source intelligence accounts have gone from 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:54.480 a niche obsession among reporters and conflict nerds to mainstream entertainment. 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.559 Because views equal money, especially on Twitter, where Elon Musk 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.760 pays people based on the end game age they get, 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.880 there is now a financial incentive to post videos that 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.200 will be shared widely, and as always, the stuff that 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.640 is shared most widely is the stuff that makes people angry. 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:14.040 Videos need not be truthful to spread. In some cases, 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.720 this means reposting old footage as if it is new. 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.160 This is particularly easy with the conflict in Gaza, since 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.120 Israel has launched so many strikes against it over the years. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.280 One video of a building crumbling into rubble left or 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.200 a missile strike is as good as another. To the 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:33.120 rats scrambling for Elon Musk's pocket change, many viral disinformation 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.319 videos are just clips from the check video game Arma two. 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.520 For roughly a decade, footage of in game combat has 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.960 gone viral, netting followers and sometimes money for all manner 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.319 of shady figures. If you see video that's claimed to 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.560 be an Israeli helicopter or a Russian helicopter or an 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.520 American helicopter being shot down in some erupting field, you 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.120 should really double check that, because there's always a very 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.440 good chance that it's a clip from this video game 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:59.360 of a chopper going down or of some other kind 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.880 of military vehicle being taken out. In real warfare. It's 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.600 quite rare to get footage at a good angle and 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:07.800 close to that sort of thing. So anytime you see 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.880 footage that seems like it might be too good to 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:15.800 be real, it probably is. Such disinformation is, of course unsightly, 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.200 but that's not all it is. It can provoke violence 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.160 as well. A recent New York Times article on social 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:25.600 media disinformation makes this clear quote. The Times found several 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:29.000 pieces of misinformation that spread out across Israeli and Palestinian 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.360 neighborhood and activist WhatsApp groups this week. One which appeared 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.559 as a block of Hebrew text or an audio file, 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.880 contained a warning that Palestinian mobs were preparing to descend 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:42.040 on Israeli civilians. Palestinians are coming, parents, Protect your children, 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.319 read the message, which pointed specifically to several suburban areas 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.840 north of Tel Aviv. Thousands of people were in one 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.000 of the telegram groups where the post was shared. The 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.640 post then appeared in several WhatsApp groups, which had dozens 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.839 to hundreds of members. Now there were no reports of 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.480 violence in the areas mentioned in this post. This kind 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.200 of thing happened all over the world and has been 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.800 happening for years, and the fact that it's untrue does 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.000 not stop similar viral lies from inspiring and justifying mass 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:12.040 violence in places like India and Myanmar. In both those countries, 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.480 much of this targeted disinformation was posted at the direct 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:19.719 behest of state security agencies to further their efforts at genocide. 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:21.880 None of this is new. It all just works much 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:25.839 faster thanks to social media. The one truly significant change 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.400 in recent months has been the addition of a direct 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:32.120 profit motive to sharing lies. The best recent example of 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.200 this is a fellow named Mario Naffall. He's a con 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.960 artist and a crypto scammer who embezzled from his own 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.360 company and has built a massive following retweeting out of 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:45.079 context videos, starting with the Wagner rebellion in Russia. Earlier 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:49.320 this year, Elon Musk, whose ignorance of that conflict is unsurpassed, 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.120 called Naffall's messages the best coverage I've seen so far. 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:57.080 More recently, Marion Na Fall has been responsible for spreading 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:01.079 fake news about the potential capture of Nimrod Alone, who 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.960 is the commander of Israel's southern forces in the region. 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.800 The video that he claimed was Nimrod Alone being taken 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:11.600 into captivity was in fact a completely different person. It's 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.560 actually unclear who. Mario does not know anything about anything, 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.320 and I think was just lying because that would be 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.760 the most salacious thing possible. It's also worth noting that 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:25.440 Elon Musk recently made a post highlighting a couple of 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:29.320 ocent accounts that were his recommendations, his picks for credible 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.520 people to report on the conflict, and you should follow 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.560 these folks. He then deleted part of that tweet and 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:36.800 self censored himself when one of the sources he had 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.240 picked referred to dead Hamas fighters as martyrs, which Elon 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.479 had an issue with. Clearly, what he's doing is attempting 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:47.120 to pick and set his own propaganda dispensers, you know, 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.120 the people that, for whatever reason he thinks, are providing 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.040 the most convenient narrative about what's happening. None of this 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.040 should be mistaken for actual news. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:57.959 It is likely that. 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.079 Much, perhaps most, of the footage on your timeline from 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.320 the fighting in Gaza and Israel is reposted video that 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:06.800 is not current. Obviously, there is a lot of current 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.640 footage going out right now too, but a significant amount 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.839 of it is not. I find this exasperating, even as 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.440 I wonder how much that really matters. Is sharing old 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.880 footage of civilian homes being leveled by Israeli missiles really 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.360 an issue when similar homes are being bombed at the 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.760 same time. I do still think so, but I'm no 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.520 longer sure that my feelings on the matter are quite rational. 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.960 The most commonly accepted definition of intelligence of intellect that 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:36.280 you'll find is the ability to adapt to change and 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.280 select environments, or the ability to deal with change in 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.520 your environment. If that is truly the best measure of intelligence, 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.760 then my discussed at disinformation makes me kind of stupid. 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.360 Its purveyors have had blinding success in using it to 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.320 push their own narratives and to shape reality. I use 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.640 the word barbarism earlier to describe this, and it's a 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.720 loaded word, but not nearly so loaded as its synonym, savagery. 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:07.480 Savagery is a word that inspires powerful emotions for good reason. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.800 It was often used by white supremacist colonizers to paint 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.280 whole peoples as backwards and less human, especially when they 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.640 engaged in acts of resistance that were in reality no 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.480 bloodier or more violent than the acts being perpetrated against them. 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.440 The word predates European colonialism, though it seems to date 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:29.240 back to around thirteen hundred, and it entered French salvage 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:33.240 like the Cologne Johnny depphawks from the Latin salvaticus, which 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:37.320 literally means of the woods. Why this digression because in 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.319 two thousand and four, an Islamist strategist named Abu Baker 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.400 Naji published a book on the Internet titled Management of Savagery. 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:48.480 In Naji's conception, savagery was defined as terrorist attacks against 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.360 civilian infrastructure and stufflike tourist facilities, which were meant to 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:57.120 provoke violent escalations from superpowers, that violence would radicalize more 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.080 people against the West and lead to a progressive degradation 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.720 of social order and operational capacity. In the nation's nause 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.320 saw as enemies, The management of savagery was a key 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.160 text for the men who wound up creating the Islamic State. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.320 Some will use this to argue that the tactics failed, 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.680 since Isis is not exactly thriving at present. To do 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.320 so would be to ignore the six trillion dollars the 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.680 United States lit on fire fighting a disastrous war on terror, 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.600 which supercharged much of the underlying instability in our country 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.120 and may yet lead to a collapse in domestic order. 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.280 I will admit that I have found the framework of 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.400 managing savagery useful in my interpretation and understanding of conflict, 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.880 both domestic and international. In twenty twenty I got to 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.800 watch the process up close over the course of dozens 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:47.040 of protests. The basic strategy of most Portland protests that year. 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:48.920 When like this you got a bunch of people to 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.120 march up to a police building, they would chant and 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.720 yell until the police got angry and then gassed and 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.080 or beat up everybody. After a while, this dynamic was 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:01.080 widely understood and accepted by protesters. They saw their suffering 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.760 and the risk that they engaged in as an acceptable 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.320 trade off because it revealed the violence and savagery inherent 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:11.520 in policing as an institution. This, they hoped would radicalize 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.240 others against it, people who watched clips of videos from 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.360 the protest or who attended themselves, And for a time 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.200 this strategy worked quite well. Many people who had been 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:22.800 a political on the matter grew utterly hardened against the 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:26.280 cops after a few hours in the gas clouds. People 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.400 cannot endure violence, however, without being changed by it, so 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.040 as the week's war on, participants grew more and more 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.880 comfortable with not just property destruction, but with the use 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.800 of things like molotov cocktails. One may consider a molotov 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:42.040 to be necessary sometimes, and throughout history they often have been, 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.440 but savage is as good a term to describe firebombs 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.440 as any. No one was killed by any molotov that 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.760 I ever saw used in Portland, but of course no 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.640 protests come close to the savagery of warfare. The emotional 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.960 dynamics at play are shades of each other, though, and 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.760 I thought it might be useful to mention. Perhaps a 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.240 more or illustrative example would be my own experiences in Mosul. 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.400 In the early summer of twenty seventeen. My team and 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.800 I were embedded with an Iraqi federal police unit in 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.240 the Old City, where the fighting was intense and hideous. 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.600 We came under fire from a sniper. Some of the 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.400 shots were so close that chipped concrete hit my helmet. 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:18.880 The mortar team with us responded with the help of 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.600 a spotter. They dropped explosive shells on homes and shops 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.560 until they hit and killed the sniper. In that moment, 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.880 I felt elation I've seldom felt since. After we found 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.120 better cover, I began composing the scene in my head, 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.240 laying out how I would write it. Then my fixer, Sangar, 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:35.600 said something that interrupted my train of thought and has 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.440 remained with me ever since. Did you count how many 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.920 rounds they fired before they hit him? I told him 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.440 I thought it was six or seven. Maybe where do 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:44.680 you think the others landed? 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:45.880 From? 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.160 His tone was clear what he meant. The old city 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.680 was crowded. Many civilians had not yet been able to 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.480 escape the Isis lines. Their homes were often next door 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:57.480 to fighting positions. And the density of the city meant 0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.680 that any honest hit still had a good chance of 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.000 hitting someone. Later, I met a man whose house had 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.840 been hit twenty times by mortar rounds and rockets before 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.159 he had a chance to escape with his family, So 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.639 the glee of the moment faded. My writing about that 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.439 scene was more sober, more careful, and much better. As 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:16.920 a result, saying our's words have helped me shape both 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.240 my coverage of war and my reactions to it. Ever 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.920 since this shouldn't matter to people being bombed out of 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.480 their homes and losing loved ones right now, it might 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.800 be helpful though, to those of us watching bloodshed from 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:31.240 behind a screen, at least until we're the ones filming. 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:49.239 Welcome to It could happen here on Garrison Davis. This 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:50.960 is the show where we talk about how everything is 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.160 kind of falling apart and how we can sometimes put 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:58.560 it back together. Joining me is my dear, dear collaborator 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.120 and friend, James is Stout. Good Good morning, James. 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:03.040 Good morning, Garrison. 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.679 That's very kind of you, Thank you, And we. 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.560 Got a very special episode here today. We are talking 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:13.720 with four people who have put together a new book 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:18.280 by Aka Press called no Parseran. We're gonna have kind 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:19.960 of a little bit of a like a group discussion 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:24.679 about anti fascist history and this kind of this the 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.119 state of anti fascism in the past few years. I know, 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:29.760 this is how I kind of got started with radical 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.639 politics growing up in Portland, Oregon. You see Nazis marching 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:35.399 around in your street and you're like, oh, well, this 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.800 is obviously a problem. Someone should probably do something about this. 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.560 And stuff has changed a lot the past the past 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.800 few years. I mean, like the anti fascist movement that 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:47.880 I got kind of that I kind of got into 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.520 only twenty eighteen. You know, it's very different now, and 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.360 it's I don't know, there's these types of things live 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.680 on through like oral histories as well as you know, books, 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.120 and I think it's really cool to have these types 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:06.000 of conversations. So joining us today is Shane Burley, Emily Gorcinski, 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:10.800 Michael Novic, and Darryl Lamont Jakins. Greetings everyone, I'm going 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.040 to hand it over to Shane and you can kind 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.960 of talk about the book, I guess. 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:20.040 Yeah, thanks Scarrison, Thanks James for having us on the 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.520 whole crew of us. Yeah, this book was something came 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.440 out last year, but we had been working on it 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:31.800 for about four years. I'm starting in twenty eighteen. I 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.680 was drunk with Kim Kelly and New York and we 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:35.800 thought it'd be really great to put together something with 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.560 all of our friends. And what do you do with 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:40.159 a big group of people. It takes like four or 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:44.640 five years to pull off. But really the idea was 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.880 trying to do something that was bigger than what had 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:52.080 been written about anti fascism at that point, which was 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.080 shockingly narrow. What people understood of as of just a 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:59.840 few movements, mostly very recent history, and so much wasn't 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.960 being included in that conversation. So the idea was, how 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.439 can we build out like a much bigger picture of 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.119 this by including as many voices as possible. 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:10.360 So we ended up getting a couple. 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.000 Of dozen folks together that had different takes on it, 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.359 some talking about tech, some talking about deep history, some 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:20.840 talking about anti fascism in their countries other continents, and 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.639 so in general, the idea was to make it feel 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:27.400 like a discussion between people who either know each other 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:30.600 or should be like in some kind of comradeship with 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.439 each other. So that was sort of where it came together. 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:36.920 I think with this conversation, the way we were thinking 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.400 about this is I wanted to I wanted the opportunity 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.960 to talk with basically my friends about their history a 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.359 little bit, and so I asked three folks that had 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.520 a really long history with doing organizing work, and so 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:50.600 I thought it would be cool maybe if you go 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.080 through talking to them a little bit about their prehistory 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:58.720 or their early history organizing. And Michael, your history goes 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.040 back the furthest as you know, we know, so I 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:03.800 thought we could kick off with you and then talk 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.200 with Emily and then Darryl, just kind of getting into 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.120 your background. So how do you get started in movement work? 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.320 Actually I should say first, when did you get started 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:13.120 in movement where? 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.080 Well, yeah, so I sometimes felt a little bit of 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.520 a dinosaur. I was born in nineteen forty seven, so 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:26.160 the fascism in power was a fairly recent reality in 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.000 my life. My father was an immigrant from Poland. I 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:32.240 came here in the thirties. Most of his family was 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.679 destroyed in Ballastoke. They had an uprising there similar to 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.800 the Warsaw Getto uprising, and almost everybody was lipidated in 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.439 that process. So there's a family history there for me 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.480 also obviously grew up in the shadow of the US 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:54.280 atomic bombing of Rosha Monagasaki and the US incarceration of 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:59.960 Japanese Americans and concentration camps, so you know, those realities 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.880 in my life. I've lived in a you know, orthodox 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:10.240 Jewish immigrant working class family and neighborhood in Brooklyn, which 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.920 is now dominated by extremely right wing forces Borough Park. 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:18.560 It's one of the bastions of probably uh you know, 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:24.600 neo fashionst Republican prosionists. But somehow when I grew up 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:29.760 there that was not the case. Anyway, I got involved 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.600 in politics in the sixties and you know student movement stuff, 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:37.359 anti war stuff, and at Brooklyn College, which when I 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:43.160 was there was a three public, four year college part 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:46.199 of the City University system in New York, and I 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:51.600 was actually eventually elected student body president. They had liquidated 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:56.480 the student government earlier when you know, people opposed the 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.960 Korean War, and we had a struggle to get you know, 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.000 for student rights and anti war stuff and so on, 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:07.520 and we succeeded in getting student body elections for officers 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.919 for the first time in about a dozen years. But 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:13.840 you know, as part of all that anti war and 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:18.720 anti police brutality and other stuff that was going on 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:20.240 in Brooklyn at the time. And then we raised the 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.480 question of the fact that Brooklyn College was ninety eight 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:27.000 percent white or nine percent white in a borough that 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:30.119 even then was you know, the majority black in Puerto Rican. 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:34.439 And suddenly all the student support we had had for 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.159 all the other struggles cops off the campus and you know, 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:40.760 Navy off the campus, and so on we go, you know, 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:42.879 got a dean of students fired and other stuff. But 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:45.480 as soon as we raised the question of opening the 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:48.320 campus up and having open ambissions to the city university 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:50.840 system and a special emissions program for black and Puerto 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:55.080 Rican high school students, most of our student support evaporated. 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.479 And for me that was an object lesson that unless 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:03.840 you're you know, conscious the organizing about internalized and institutionalized racism, 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:08.000 everything else you do that is you know, progressive or 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:10.120 anti imperialist or anti war is kind of a house 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:15.200 of cards or you know, castles made of sand. And 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:18.520 in particular and raising those issues, we discovered that there 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.240 was a fascist element down the campus. There were people 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:25.280 who formed the early Jewish Defense League in Brooklyn who 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:29.080 were primarily anti black and Also there's a group called 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:32.359 the youth what was it, Young Americans for Vitom YAF, 0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:35.359 which was like the youth wing of the National Review, 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:41.119 right wing Republican formation, and they were pretty openly fascistic 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:43.800 in their politics. So, you know, it became a question 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:46.320 that if you were doing you know, anti racist and 0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:49.240 anti war and anti capitalist organizing, you were going to 0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:53.840 face not just you know, a struggle against the force 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:56.359 of the state, but that there were reactionary elements within 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:01.280 particularly white society. And I think because I said the colonialism, 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:05.440 you know, there's a mass base for that. And struck 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:07.040 by the title of the show just say, I don't 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:09.480 know if people are familiar with the book, it can't 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:13.560 happen here, but obviously your title is a reflection it 0:25:13.600 --> 0:25:15.960 could happen here. I think it has happened here. For 0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:18.000 one thing, I think the fashion has always been an 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:25.480 element of US political culture because of settler colonialism. You knows, 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:29.800 definition of fascism is that it's bringing the methods of 0:25:29.880 --> 0:25:32.440 rule of the colonies into the metropol But the US 0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:36.000 is the settler colony, and therefore there are colonized people 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:38.800 inside this country. You can always have been and so 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:42.879 fascistic elements of you know, slave labor genocide, you know, 0:25:43.040 --> 0:25:45.520 land theft, all the rest have always been part and 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:48.920 part of that is also creating that mass base within 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:55.320 the settler population that supports you know, that leadership. So anyway, 0:25:55.480 --> 0:25:59.960 I think that that you know, that both those personal 0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:04.719 aspects and that consciousness, and so I came in contact with, 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:08.399 you know, the very radical forces in the Black Freedom 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:10.760 Circle back then. The Black Panther Party is very active. 0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:12.960 There was one of the people in the Black Student 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:16.199 Union joined the Black Panther Party. You know, there's a 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:20.320 period of very fascist attacks and the Panthers had formed 0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:25.760 the National Committee of Combat Fascism and had an analysis 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:29.639 that you know, the US was fascistic, and you know, 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:33.639 George Jackson at that time said, you know, fascism is 0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:36.600 already here, and I think he meant it, you know literally, 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:41.280 And so that's part of the perspective I've carried through 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:43.960 for you know, I don't know what that is sixty 0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:45.520 years now close to him. 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:48.320 Yeah, I mean, I think really quickly, I would like 0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:51.480 to hear kind of what your experience was with forming 0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:53.879 John Brown. Where did the idea come from? Because I 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:55.960 think for a lot of a lot of people are 0:26:56.040 --> 0:27:00.480 thinking of recent anti fascist American anti fascist history ends 0:27:00.560 --> 0:27:02.720 up being kind of a starting point for a certain 0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:06.120 kind of no platform tactic. So how did you first 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:08.440 kind of develop that? What brought you in? 0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:12.920 So, yeah, just to say, I was, you know, coming 0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:16.280 out of the movement as I did, I moved from 0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:20.320 New York to California because there was a strong There 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:24.040 was a newspaper called The Movement, which was the newspaper 0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:26.320 basically of friends of Snick. It was the people who 0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:31.159 left Snick when Snick adopted a black power analysis and 0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:34.120 said that white people who were involved should go organize 0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:36.679 in the white community. And there was a you know, 0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:38.920 kind of a I was part of a working class 0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:42.480 organizing collective in Hayward, California. Eventually out of that I 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.720 got connected with, you know, some of the people that 0:27:45.880 --> 0:27:48.879 lad a foreign Prairie Fire organized committee. I was in 0:27:48.920 --> 0:27:51.879 a group in the Bay Area called the June twenty 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:56.120 eighth Union. It was a gay ends, pro socialist, anti imperiallests, 0:27:56.240 --> 0:28:00.640 pro feminist collective of mostly people of being the set. 0:28:01.520 --> 0:28:04.120 And we went to what was called the Hard Times Conference, 0:28:04.119 --> 0:28:08.480 which was put on by Prairie Far Organizing Committee in Chicago, 0:28:08.520 --> 0:28:11.800 and it turned out that there was secretly an effort 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:17.040 by the weather underground to come up from underground to 0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:19.680 create a new communist party, and they surfaced that at 0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:22.720 that conference. But there's a lot of opposition to that 0:28:22.840 --> 0:28:26.919 from across the board, from different Black liberation, American Indian movement, 0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:31.000 the Puerto Rican, depending, the Struggle, Chicago movement, all of them, 0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:33.480 you know, felt that there was a sell out of 0:28:33.520 --> 0:28:36.800 the politics there anyway. Out of that process I was 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:40.360 part of. I joined a Prairie Fire Organized Committee eventually, 0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:45.400 and that split and then it was a West coast 0:28:45.640 --> 0:28:48.640 group which captained Prairie far the East coast formed a 0:28:48.640 --> 0:28:52.040 group called the main Eineteenth Communist Organization and they launched 0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:56.800 the original John Brown Anti Clan Committee, an initiative from 0:28:56.840 --> 0:29:02.000 the prisons, the organized prisoners and New York had discovered 0:29:02.000 --> 0:29:04.720 that there was an extensive network of clan claverns that 0:29:04.760 --> 0:29:06.800 were based in the prison guards and some of the 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:10.560 white prisoners, and they asked for outside supporters to begin 0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:12.200 to expose that and deal with it and help them 0:29:12.240 --> 0:29:15.360 deal with it. And John Brandon, the Gillen Committee, was 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:20.200 formed out of that. Separately very far on the West 0:29:20.240 --> 0:29:22.280 Coast had formed a group called Take a Stand against 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:24.960 the Klan. There was a lot of you know, that 0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:28.560 was the period that the beginning of the sort notification 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:30.200 of the clan that was going on. So this is 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:37.360 the seventies and eventually, you know, under a challenge from 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:41.440 particularly the New African Independence movement, the Malcolm Xis grassroots movement, 0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:45.480 New African People's Organization, which both Prairie Fire on the 0:29:45.520 --> 0:29:49.080 West Coast and May nineteenth and the East Coast were 0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:54.240 connected to, they pushed for a joint organization. So at 0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:56.680 that point there was a kind of reconstitution of John 0:29:56.680 --> 0:29:59.640 Brannan at the Clan Committee, and so I was part 0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:02.000 of that and we merged. You know, there were chapters 0:30:02.040 --> 0:30:06.600 in Atlanta, Chicago, the Bay Area, Los Angeles where I 0:30:06.680 --> 0:30:11.360 ended up in New York, I think Bowling Green, maybe 0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:14.320 the couple of Connecticut, and so they were quite active 0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:19.480 in that period, and you know, street level confrontations and 0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:25.520 you know, other exposures of early Neo Nazi activity and 0:30:25.560 --> 0:30:32.600 clan activity, but particularly from a perspective of conscious and 0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:35.760 active solidarity with the black freedom struggling, particularly the New 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:39.440 African Independence Movement which is a very high level of unity, 0:30:40.960 --> 0:30:43.320 and over a period of time, you know, there was 0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:45.480 a struggle to broaden that out and try to be 0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:49.600 a more all embracing organization that could relate to the struggle. 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:51.360 There were a lot of different formations at that time. 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:54.960 There was the National Anti Clan Network, and there was 0:30:55.440 --> 0:30:58.120 a couple of others, and there were different politics among 0:30:58.120 --> 0:31:02.840 all of them, and you know, John Brandeth Glen made 0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:05.640 that time took more of a position of pro direct 0:31:05.640 --> 0:31:09.160 action and also, as they say, kind of just salidated 0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:12.400 with the Black freedom struggle as a basis for doing 0:31:12.400 --> 0:31:12.800 that work. 0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:15.920 The Anti Clan Network I think so people kind of 0:31:15.960 --> 0:31:18.520 know that's where the Southern Poverty Law Center eventually came 0:31:18.560 --> 0:31:21.200 out of another networks of these different groups out here 0:31:21.200 --> 0:31:23.840 in Oregon, the Rural Organizing Project was sort of like 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:27.400 a down the line there. I think it's interesting too 0:31:27.440 --> 0:31:31.280 about the founding story. I was talking with our mutual 0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:34.120 friend Lisa Roth, who is part of the founding of that. 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:38.840 Very first iteration of the John Brown Committee was they 0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:41.760 were doing a prison organizing with Black Panthers and Upstate 0:31:41.800 --> 0:31:44.440 New York and they were writing these letters saying the 0:31:44.760 --> 0:31:47.760 prison guards are clan and they thought, you mean, they're 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:51.320 really racist, you know, obviously they're the prison guards. Yeah, 0:31:51.440 --> 0:31:54.840 and when they went and looked it up. No, the 0:31:55.080 --> 0:31:57.960 president of the prison guard union was the Grand Dragon 0:31:58.000 --> 0:31:59.440 of the State KKK. 0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:03.080 He actually he had a position within the prison system 0:32:03.120 --> 0:32:07.160 as the head of the sort of education activity, educational 0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:09.960 activities in the prisons, and was using his formal position 0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:13.520 within the prison system to organize white prisoners along with 0:32:13.560 --> 0:32:16.480 the guards into clan collaborance. 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:18.600 Which seems like a total that was sort of a 0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:22.840 validation with the centerpiece of John Brown being that cops 0:32:22.840 --> 0:32:26.000 and clan have that kind of collaboration because that was 0:32:26.000 --> 0:32:28.960 there kind of the founding like lesson of that organizing. 0:32:29.200 --> 0:32:31.160 Sure, the blue by day, White by night and a 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:33.080 lot of those slogans come out of that period, and 0:32:33.280 --> 0:32:35.680 you know, I think it is you know, it's related 0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:38.680 to the later the ar a line that you know, 0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:41.440 fascism is built from above and below that there's you know, 0:32:41.600 --> 0:32:44.240 elements within the state that are operating independently, but there 0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:49.240 are also state forces and then they're you know independent. Yeah, 0:32:49.680 --> 0:32:53.640 so called revolutionary fascists that claim to be opposing the state, 0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:55.400 but we're not really. 0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:59.280 Well, I think to fast forward a little bit, quite 0:32:59.280 --> 0:33:03.560 a bit, Emily, I remember when we first met each other. 0:33:03.640 --> 0:33:06.960 Obviously it was probably shortly after Unite the Right happened. 0:33:07.320 --> 0:33:09.640 But how did you first get drawn into organizing? Did 0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:12.000 you have a long history before that happened, or were 0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:15.120 you just part of getting involved around the ramp up 0:33:15.160 --> 0:33:16.800 to that now? 0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:20.400 I think, you know, compared to the other folks here, 0:33:20.600 --> 0:33:23.360 I'm sort of the summer child of the group, right, 0:33:23.640 --> 0:33:28.560 I don't have a super long history in organizing. I 0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:32.640 think that, you know, I came to anti fascism before 0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:35.560 Unite the Right happened. I work in the tech industry, 0:33:35.720 --> 0:33:40.440 and sometimes sort of around the gamer Gate era, I 0:33:40.480 --> 0:33:46.600 started noticing how white supremacist the tech industry had become. Right, 0:33:46.680 --> 0:33:49.719 it was sort of this nexus for a lot of 0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:56.959 this strongly libertarian, strongly supremacist mindset. It was sort of 0:33:56.960 --> 0:34:00.920 the worst of that meritocratic ideal that a lot of 0:34:01.000 --> 0:34:05.959 us had to experience in university and in our workplaces, 0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:07.920 and it just seemed like it was getting out of control. 0:34:07.960 --> 0:34:10.759 And that was kind of at the same time that 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:12.640 we were seeing a lot more women come into the 0:34:12.640 --> 0:34:15.200 tech industry, we were starting to see a lot of 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:18.080 changes in the space, and then there was sort of 0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:21.560 like this this vacuum left by gamer Gate as that 0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:24.040 all sort of died down, a lot of this sort 0:34:24.040 --> 0:34:26.880 of energy needed to go somewhere, and so I started 0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:31.240 speaking out against some white supremacist organizing that was happening 0:34:31.320 --> 0:34:34.160 at conferences and things like that. And I think the 0:34:34.200 --> 0:34:38.960 first wake up call for me happened when some folks 0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:43.360 that are linked to Milo Yanapolis put together a list 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:49.000 of SGW Social Justice Warriors and this was journalists and 0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:51.600 activists and people who were speaking out and I somehow 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:55.680 made that list. And I realized, after you know, looking 0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:59.840 at this and seeing what was going on, that be 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:03.640 political being sort of just somebody with an opinion, wasn't 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:06.560 you know, there was no way to be that wasn't 0:35:06.560 --> 0:35:09.279 a defense against what was coming. And so I just 0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:12.520 sort of looked inside and said, well, if this is 0:35:12.520 --> 0:35:14.239 the way it's going to be, like, I'm going to 0:35:14.320 --> 0:35:16.839 fight back, I'm gonna I'm gonna figure out what to do. 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:20.560 I didn't really have a lot of organizing ties, they 0:35:20.560 --> 0:35:24.400 didn't really have a network, so like every other person, 0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:27.880 I just you know, shouted at Twitter and somehow that worked. 0:35:29.840 --> 0:35:32.680 The irony of this all is that all this was 0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:35.520 going on, I was starting to do you know, digital activism, 0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:39.279 using my my tech skills to try to shine light 0:35:39.400 --> 0:35:44.400 on things that were wrong in the federal government and 0:35:44.400 --> 0:35:47.600 the Trump administration and things like that, and I really. 0:35:47.400 --> 0:35:48.640 Just wanted to step away from that. 0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:51.520 I kind of had, like I went to Prague after 0:35:52.440 --> 0:35:53.520 Trump was inaugurated. 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:56.520 I wanted to like, you know, clear the air a 0:35:56.560 --> 0:35:56.920 little bit. 0:35:56.960 --> 0:35:58.640 I didn't like the fact that I was on this 0:35:59.239 --> 0:36:02.200 hit list that was put together by people who have 0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:05.640 like a couple of handshakes away from the president's desk. 0:36:05.719 --> 0:36:07.440 So I went to Europe. I went to Prague, and 0:36:07.640 --> 0:36:09.399 I cleared my head. And when I came back, I said, 0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:12.400 you know what, I'm going to just focus on local activism. 0:36:12.520 --> 0:36:14.120 I'm going to focus on the issues that are in 0:36:14.120 --> 0:36:16.480 my community. I knew that we had things going on 0:36:16.600 --> 0:36:20.640 with our local low income housing space, we had a 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:23.680 lot of you know stuff around the statues that was 0:36:23.719 --> 0:36:28.440 coming up in town, and I didn't really expect, like 0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:31.160 it was kind of random that Unite the Right was 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:36.759 you know, destined for Charlottesville, and so all of the work, 0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:38.640 all of the organizing that I had started to do 0:36:38.760 --> 0:36:40.880 that spring, and that where I guess that winter in 0:36:40.880 --> 0:36:44.319 that spring started to pay off, as you know, as 0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:48.360 Charlottesville became the target of all of the neo Nazis. 0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:51.440 So I think it was sort of I don't want 0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:54.279 to say it's it's fortunate, because it's not really the 0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:57.720 greatest like it's not a positive thing that that's what happened. 0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:00.960 But I guess that I am lucky as I came 0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:04.759 to this awakening it was happening you know, before and 0:37:04.840 --> 0:37:08.080 not after, and that I was able to use the 0:37:08.160 --> 0:37:10.320 network that I was building, the audience I was building 0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:12.960 in order to help like back. So yeah, I guess 0:37:13.000 --> 0:37:16.600 that's that's sort of like, I don't know that I 0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:20.680 would have been, you know, as much as dedicated as 0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:23.359 it was if it wasn't for that very personal sort 0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:26.120 of experience. And I look back at that and I'm 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:29.040 kind of embarrassed by that. But you know, we all 0:37:29.040 --> 0:37:30.160 have our own paths. 0:37:30.800 --> 0:37:33.719 Yeah, absolutely, And I think, you know, there's something interesting 0:37:33.800 --> 0:37:37.200 about that year in advance of the Unite the Right, 0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:39.920 where we're different groups were testing the waters a little bit, 0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:42.279 and how that was their ability to ramp up in 0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:45.400 the area but it was also the anti fascist ability 0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:48.239 to ramp up, you know, so talking with Mimi and 0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:51.960 other organizers there, like those earlier events, like the earlier 0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:54.960 Clan rally that happened like, you know, months earlier, or 0:37:55.040 --> 0:37:57.879 kind of those that early flash mob that Richard Spencer led, 0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:00.640 that gave people the opportunity to build up the base. 0:38:00.760 --> 0:38:03.880 So how did you kind of shift to focusing on 0:38:03.920 --> 0:38:06.319 that first? I guess how did you hear about Unite 0:38:06.360 --> 0:38:08.640 the Riots, this big kind of like target event, But 0:38:08.680 --> 0:38:10.279 what was the steps along the way there? 0:38:11.520 --> 0:38:17.000 Yeah, I think one of the things that really that 0:38:17.080 --> 0:38:20.160 I really tried to do that year was to use 0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:23.160 the experience I was having traveling to try to understand 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:28.600 the history of movements that were against you know, great 0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:30.480 state powers. Right when I was in Prague, I spent 0:38:30.560 --> 0:38:33.319 a lot of time reading about and looking into and 0:38:33.360 --> 0:38:36.399 walking through the sites of where the Prague Spring took 0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:38.759 place and where the Builder Revolution took place, and how 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:42.600 these groups of people were able to overcome this massive 0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:45.920 amount of state violence and still be successful. And when 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:49.560 Richard Spencer first came to town that first flashbob is 0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:51.080 now called Charlottesville one point. 0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:53.399 Zero, I was in Berlin at the time. 0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:57.080 I woke up to see what was going on, and 0:38:57.600 --> 0:39:00.680 it was, you know, I think again just sort of 0:39:00.680 --> 0:39:04.040 these you know, the universe coming into alignment. As that 0:39:04.120 --> 0:39:08.440 was happening, there's also this big anti Nazi demonstration that 0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:10.880 was happening in Berlin. So I took that opportunity to 0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:14.960 go and learn about what anti fascists are doing in 0:39:15.000 --> 0:39:18.719 other countries and other localities, how they are organizing, how 0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:22.480 they spread their message. And so I think that, you know, 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:25.840 as I learned about all of this going on, what 0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:27.759 the first thing that I tried to do is just 0:39:27.960 --> 0:39:30.359 look around and say, what can we learn from people 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:34.080 who have been here before, who have done this before 0:39:34.080 --> 0:39:36.239 and have this in their living memory. And that's what 0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:39.920 I tried to take back to Charlottesville. And then, you know, 0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:42.200 I think it was after that trip I was in 0:39:42.239 --> 0:39:44.640 Berlin in May. I came back for that trip. I 0:39:44.719 --> 0:39:48.080 joined in the anti fascist march almost as soon as 0:39:48.080 --> 0:39:50.200 I got back, and that's when we had heard we've 0:39:50.400 --> 0:39:53.440 like learned about the two rallies, the July eighth KKK 0:39:53.600 --> 0:39:56.359 rally and the August twelfth Unite the Right, and at 0:39:56.440 --> 0:39:59.480 that point, like from that moment, it was just like 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:04.720 every making moment of my day was spent organizing for 0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:05.400 those rallies. 0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:09.640 It's the sort of effect that just circumstance sort of 0:40:09.680 --> 0:40:12.960 speeds people's capacity to do it, but that maybe even 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:15.279 maybe capacity is not the right word. They're kind of 0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:18.440 understanding of what it takes to do that work. So 0:40:18.480 --> 0:40:22.719 I was interviewing a number of the rabbis in the area, 0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:24.799 and these were not super political folks. These were not 0:40:24.840 --> 0:40:27.680 people like from some activist synagogues who were mainline synagogues, 0:40:28.760 --> 0:40:32.160 but they connected with a number of faith leaders from 0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:34.960 the historically black churches, both of which were saying, Okay, 0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:37.960 we're both going to be targeted here, and there's no 0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:40.680 there's no institutions coming to help. Really, there's no one 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:43.160 we can count on here. So they created those collaborative 0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:47.520 spaces and really pretty complicated and effective organizing models, having 0:40:47.600 --> 0:40:51.040 no experience doing it because of that hyper intense space, 0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:53.640 which I think is in a way that's why those 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:58.680 circumstances have such an important effect on it. So how 0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:02.960 did you basically planned those couple of weeks in advance? 0:41:03.280 --> 0:41:05.120 How are you thinking about it, and what was the 0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:07.520 kind of groups you were working with so like networks 0:41:07.520 --> 0:41:09.879 that were coming together formal organizations. 0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:13.840 Yeah, I think there were a bunch of you know, 0:41:13.960 --> 0:41:18.200 organizations on the ground that I connected with. Certainly, we 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:20.840 had a local chapter of Surge showing up for racial 0:41:20.960 --> 0:41:24.759 justice and they were doing a lot of organizing. And 0:41:24.800 --> 0:41:27.120 there was you know, the Anarchist People of Color APOC. 0:41:28.239 --> 0:41:31.320 They were a great group of people that we connected 0:41:31.360 --> 0:41:35.880 with and that I connected with. And it also happened 0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:38.080 that I started dating somebody who's also connected to the 0:41:38.080 --> 0:41:40.719 local anti fascist scene at the time, so I sort 0:41:40.760 --> 0:41:43.200 of brought into all of these circles through that relationship 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:46.359 as well. And so I think that sort of all 0:41:46.400 --> 0:41:49.839 of these things combined really made it clear that we 0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:55.360 had a small but very knowledgeable base of people that 0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:57.480 could organize. And I think that one of the things 0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:00.120 that we did exceptionally well in the lead up is 0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:03.719 because we had such a small core of people who 0:42:03.840 --> 0:42:07.600 don't who didn't really have you know, a breadth of experience, 0:42:08.960 --> 0:42:11.480 you know, in doing this, we were able to compartmentalize 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:14.680 really well. You know, some people were focusing on, you know, 0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:16.080 what are we going to do with the you know, 0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:19.320 the clergy collective and how are they going to organize 0:42:19.360 --> 0:42:22.040 what is their action going to be? And we had 0:42:22.040 --> 0:42:24.200 a media collective and that was where I put most 0:42:24.239 --> 0:42:26.719 of my energy. And so I think that we had 0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:28.920 these different groups of people that could focus on different 0:42:28.920 --> 0:42:34.279 things that helped helped us unblock ourselves from like the grander, 0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:39.319 sort of more theoretical, more abstract way to respond. We 0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:43.280 just we didn't have the time to debate over tactics, 0:42:43.280 --> 0:42:46.120 We didn't have time to debate over the ideology of 0:42:46.360 --> 0:42:48.840 anti fascism, what the right thing to do was, or 0:42:49.280 --> 0:42:52.080 what the best thing to do was. We really had 0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:54.799 to focus our time on what do we have time 0:42:54.880 --> 0:42:57.279 to do? What can we achieve given the constraints that 0:42:57.320 --> 0:43:00.759 we have, And with those sort of constraints, I think 0:43:00.800 --> 0:43:04.120 that maybe we left some good actions on the table, 0:43:04.200 --> 0:43:07.800 But what we came up with I think was fairly effective. 0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:13.160 Do you think that it carried those community folks together 0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:15.440 through and after the event you feel like those community 0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:16.279 ties are still there? 0:43:17.840 --> 0:43:19.239 I think some of them are and some of them 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:23.240 are not. There are certainly community times that have broken. 0:43:23.320 --> 0:43:27.120 There was a lot of pressure that built up. There 0:43:27.160 --> 0:43:31.800 were differences of opinions that we set aside and hoped 0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:36.720 to resolve afterwards, and those did not necessarily get resolved 0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:42.080 in some cases, some interpersonal issues, interorganizational issues. 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:44.839 I remember at one point there was a. 0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:47.719 Decision that was being made, driven by a couple of 0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:50.920 the organizing groups, that they would not support anyone that 0:43:51.000 --> 0:43:53.360 was going to be armed, and this was a tension 0:43:53.440 --> 0:43:56.600 point between those groups and groups like Redneck Revolt that 0:43:56.640 --> 0:44:02.120 were coming armed to help support anti fascist rallies, and 0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:04.880 that like that is something that still, you know, affected 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:09.560 me pretty well because I was being targeted because of 0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:11.960 how present I was in social media and Twitter and. 0:44:11.880 --> 0:44:12.399 Things like that. 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:17.040 I needed to have an armed security detail, and you know, 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:18.960 that freated a lot of a lot of tension. 0:44:19.040 --> 0:44:21.439 I didn't have legal like I had legal support pulled 0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:21.880 away from me. 0:44:21.920 --> 0:44:25.680 I didn't have legal support until until November of that 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:27.200 year when noise of a. 0:44:27.200 --> 0:44:28.480 Lawsuit started happening. 0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:32.200 So I think that some of those things did create 0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:35.759 some tension that led to fracturing of community, but some 0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:38.920 things actually really did tie the community back together and 0:44:39.480 --> 0:44:41.560 kept it close even as we have drifted apart and 0:44:41.600 --> 0:44:45.880 moved into different you know, different cities, different countries, different states, whatever. 0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:48.960 I think it's a bit of both you. 0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:51.520 Know, there's one of the founding members of Rose Head 0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:54.360 Antifa said something that cast stuck with me, which is 0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:56.879 that a lot of people will look to anti fascism 0:44:57.600 --> 0:44:59.680 as a way to rebuild the left or as to 0:44:59.680 --> 0:45:02.600 build this big mass united left. But that's not actually 0:45:02.640 --> 0:45:06.480 what's being demanded of the situation. The situation is very 0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:10.760 pretty straightforward is to basically destroy this opposition of people. 0:45:11.200 --> 0:45:13.000 And how you do that. I mean, you can have 0:45:13.040 --> 0:45:15.640 considerations about how they bring in the community and try 0:45:15.680 --> 0:45:17.800 and align with other groups, but in the end, there's 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:21.880 other decisions are being made, and so people often get 0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:26.479 disappointed when that ends up being what those projects actually are. Now, Darryl, 0:45:26.560 --> 0:45:28.480 you were down there, I unite. 0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:32.120 The right right, correct, that was there. You're everywhere when 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:38.640 we're there, I try to be. I think one of 0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:42.279 the things about Charlottesville that was really important is that 0:45:42.680 --> 0:45:47.040 we saw it coming, and we had seen it coming months, 0:45:47.080 --> 0:45:49.960 probably even years before it even happened. Hell, we saw 0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:54.400 it before in my case, because one of those everywhere 0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:59.640 places I had been was in York, Pennsylvania about twenty 0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:04.000 years prior, where you had somebody from a group called 0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:08.400 the World Church Creator. He was he was a local 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:13.360 from World Church to the Creator that invited the leader 0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:18.160 of that group, Matt Hale, to hold the public meeting 0:46:18.200 --> 0:46:20.719 at their local library. It was a tactic that that 0:46:20.800 --> 0:46:28.160 particular group had and what that resulted in was about 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:32.560 three hundred Neo Nazis coming to York, PA, about three 0:46:32.640 --> 0:46:36.279 four hundred anti fascists coming out to oppose them. And 0:46:36.320 --> 0:46:40.120 you pretty much saw a parallel of Charlottesville. As I said, 0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:44.640 up to an including a this was January twelve, twenty twelve, 0:46:44.840 --> 0:46:51.480 and up to and including a someone driving into a 0:46:51.520 --> 0:46:55.960 group of people and no one pad, no one died, 0:46:56.040 --> 0:47:00.040 no one was killed, hurt pretty bad. I think the 0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:05.000 only reason why he served two years was because one 0:47:05.040 --> 0:47:08.719 of the people that he hit was a cop. Now 0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:15.000 we fast forward to Charlottesville, and ironically, I saw the 0:47:15.080 --> 0:47:19.360 person that organized things in York represented Vanguard America at Charlottesville. 0:47:21.120 --> 0:47:26.920 And two days prior, Mike for One People's Project had 0:47:26.960 --> 0:47:31.600 a little bit of a podcast where we basically said 0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:35.280 that after everything that was going on in Charlottevielle prior 0:47:35.320 --> 0:47:40.320 to Charlottefvield one point oh, Charlottesville two point zero, and 0:47:40.360 --> 0:47:43.120 then this whole Unite the Right thing was happening where 0:47:43.120 --> 0:47:46.240 it was just making a big production out of having 0:47:46.280 --> 0:47:51.920 this event. We pretty much were resigned to the idea 0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:55.840 that this was going to be the so called rights 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:58.560 ultimat in the sense that this was going to be 0:47:59.520 --> 0:48:05.480 what and everybody, you know, realizing how bad things can get, 0:48:05.640 --> 0:48:08.480 you know it's gonna be bad. We expected it to 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:13.280 be bad. I went to Charlotteville armed, and I think 0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:16.200 really it was one of the first times that I 0:48:16.239 --> 0:48:18.719 ever did strap up when I went to one of 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:25.200 these things. When everything went down, I mean, prior to 0:48:25.280 --> 0:48:28.600 everything going down, I was just basically doing my think 0:48:28.719 --> 0:48:35.520 videotaping everyone cracking jokes. I was playing happy Warrior because 0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:37.840 you know, you see this all before up to and 0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:40.880 including the fighting. The fighting is there. I mean, that 0:48:41.040 --> 0:48:45.120 happens all the time, even that massively, I'm used to it. 0:48:45.520 --> 0:48:50.200 What I wasn't used to was when someone was murdered, 0:48:50.200 --> 0:48:54.440 when someone was killed, because that's never happened, and that 0:48:55.000 --> 0:49:00.359 actually freaked me out. It Actually, I actually got really 0:49:00.480 --> 0:49:04.239 pissed off when that went down, and I think a 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:11.879 lot of us did because if we recognize this ourselves, 0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:14.879 if we who had been on the front lines all 0:49:15.000 --> 0:49:18.680 these years recognized that this was the direction that was 0:49:18.719 --> 0:49:22.680 going in. We also recognized that we had the ability 0:49:22.760 --> 0:49:25.640 to do something about it beforehand. That's one of the 0:49:25.680 --> 0:49:27.719 reasons why the ACO you got into a lot of 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:31.719 trouble because they were busy trying to protect the free 0:49:31.760 --> 0:49:36.839 speech of everybody in all the neo Nazis there and 0:49:37.000 --> 0:49:39.520 insisting that they were going to be in that park 0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:44.280 because that's where they wanted to be. And when everything 0:49:44.360 --> 0:49:46.920 went down, a lot of people just looked at the 0:49:46.960 --> 0:49:51.359 ACO and said, could you at least recognize us how 0:49:51.440 --> 0:49:55.960 dangerous they was trying to make the situation ACOU I 0:49:56.040 --> 0:50:02.360 believe will no longer represent groups that insist on holding 0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:05.000 armed rallies. I think that was one of the things 0:50:05.040 --> 0:50:08.200 that they had said, that they were one of the changeups. 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:12.360 And even with the whole discussion about their freedom of 0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:14.720 speech and saying it was a matter of that freeze speech, 0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:18.720 people's attitudes were just like, Okay, fine, that's a given, 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:21.560 But couldn't you let them get their own attorneys? Why 0:50:21.560 --> 0:50:25.160 do you have to keep defending the worst of society 0:50:25.239 --> 0:50:30.280 in the name of a free speech that frankly doesn't 0:50:30.280 --> 0:50:32.560 seem to be afforded. The rest of us whenever we 0:50:32.600 --> 0:50:34.640 are opposing them. That's the attitude that a lot of 0:50:34.640 --> 0:50:40.000 people had, and it was really the last straw. Charlotteville 0:50:40.080 --> 0:50:44.759 was really the last straw, and people really got on 0:50:44.840 --> 0:50:50.880 a different footing and dealing with fascism. I was used 0:50:50.960 --> 0:50:56.640 to people trying to pull all the stops and trying 0:50:56.680 --> 0:50:59.720 to defend the quote unquote defend the freedom of speech 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:03.840 of not just the fascist in our society, but the 0:51:03.920 --> 0:51:08.160 right in general. So every time I would criticize somebody 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:11.960 on the right, somebody would try to say things ranging 0:51:12.040 --> 0:51:15.680 from we have to respect their freedom of speech or 0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:21.240 we should just ignore them, you know. And I hated 0:51:21.280 --> 0:51:24.200 it whenever it was and when it was combined the 0:51:24.200 --> 0:51:26.440 best way to fight hate speeches with more speech you 0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:29.040 use the more speech, Well, why don't you just ignore them? 0:51:29.560 --> 0:51:34.920 That stopped after Charlottesville. All of a sudden, people started saying, Okay, 0:51:35.200 --> 0:51:38.239 we need to start doing something about this group. That's 0:51:38.239 --> 0:51:44.360 why you saw forty thousand people in Boston protesting against 0:51:45.400 --> 0:51:47.720 the fascist up there when they tried to hold a rally. 0:51:48.200 --> 0:51:51.239 Maybe a week or two later, you know, that's why 0:51:51.280 --> 0:51:55.759 you saw websites like the Daily Stormer get you know, 0:51:56.680 --> 0:51:59.319 yanked out of yanked out of the mainstream, and now 0:51:59.320 --> 0:52:02.120 they're sitting on the dark web. That's why you saw 0:52:03.640 --> 0:52:06.640 people disowned their family members because they went to this rally. 0:52:07.120 --> 0:52:11.799 We are seeing people being not just James Field's but 0:52:12.160 --> 0:52:18.279 others being held legally accountable for what they did in Charlotteville. 0:52:18.400 --> 0:52:21.719 And all of those individuals are fascists. All of the 0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:25.680 individuals were white supremacists. We realized that we had the 0:52:25.760 --> 0:52:32.600 ability to do something, and we started doing something. Unfortunately, 0:52:33.480 --> 0:52:39.400 we stopped after Trump lost and people tried to go 0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:43.800 back to that whole just ignore them routine, and within 0:52:44.120 --> 0:52:50.520 months we got January sixth, and that was when they 0:52:50.560 --> 0:52:53.279 tried they ratcheted up again about how we're going to 0:52:54.880 --> 0:52:58.480 really curtail the right and all and all that we 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:03.000 but now that just became rhetoric. We're here again because 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:06.360 you're starting to see a lot of the rumblings with 0:53:06.880 --> 0:53:12.000 the attacks on the trans community. Basically, conservatives across the 0:53:12.000 --> 0:53:17.399 country are primarily trying to essentially do something to the 0:53:17.400 --> 0:53:20.799 rest of the country. I mean, you heard that when 0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:23.560 you go to the SEAPAC meeting, the Conservative Political Action 0:53:23.640 --> 0:53:26.799 Conference a couple of months ago. All they did was 0:53:26.880 --> 0:53:30.799 talk about things they wanted to do to America, you know, 0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:36.640 And this is what we have been fighting all our lives. 0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:41.040 This is what we have been warning about all our lives. 0:53:41.840 --> 0:53:50.880 And while anti fascism has essentially become mainstream, there is 0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:55.440 still a lot more work that we have to do 0:53:56.840 --> 0:54:00.800 in order to basically see all that work therefore, and 0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:02.720 that's them pretty much the deal. 0:54:03.239 --> 0:54:08.480 Yeah, that forty thousand person kind of response to a 0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:11.040 Proud Boy rally in Boston just a couple of weeks 0:54:11.320 --> 0:54:13.600 after Unite the Right, it was one of the most 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:16.520 common sense kind of moments and it totally dwarfs to them. 0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:18.759 I mean, forty thousand people will do whatever they want, right, 0:54:18.880 --> 0:54:21.319 forty thousand people will stop any kind of small march, 0:54:21.360 --> 0:54:24.240 even a large one. And so the lesson was learned, 0:54:24.400 --> 0:54:26.000 then it seemed to be forgotten immediately. 0:54:27.080 --> 0:54:30.040 And they're perfect example of that because that group that 0:54:30.080 --> 0:54:33.920 they were protesting went on to become super Happy Fun America. 0:54:34.680 --> 0:54:38.440 They're the group that now pushing the straight Pride rallies 0:54:39.080 --> 0:54:42.560 and they are really in the forefront of all the 0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:49.040 anti trans anti LGBTQ plus activity, and of course some 0:54:49.080 --> 0:54:53.560 of them got arrested in at January sixth, so they 0:54:53.719 --> 0:54:58.319 pretty much built up their stock since then, but so 0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:01.560 did we, and it's just a matter of using this 0:55:01.960 --> 0:55:04.080 Who's going to use their stock more effectively? 0:55:05.480 --> 0:55:09.000 Yeah, I think it was really interesting how you centered this, 0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:13.680 like this shift that happened among people who weren't previously 0:55:13.680 --> 0:55:17.800 involved in anti fascism from this kind of neoliberal understanding 0:55:18.280 --> 0:55:20.680 or that maybe even liberal understanding of the sort of 0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:23.440 struggle against fascism being one that could take place in 0:55:23.480 --> 0:55:26.200 the open, with free speech being the most important thing 0:55:26.239 --> 0:55:30.040 that's at stake, and one that moved like in a 0:55:30.160 --> 0:55:34.800 moment right when when I Nazi killed Heather Higher two. 0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:38.520 There's a ton more at stake than we thought. And 0:55:38.719 --> 0:55:43.200 I think you're right that we've gone back, like right, 0:55:43.239 --> 0:55:47.080 we've gone back to the previous understanding, which I think 0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:49.040 is what everyone kind of a lot of people. I 0:55:49.040 --> 0:55:51.640 guess they felt like they could vote for Joe Biden 0:55:51.680 --> 0:55:55.160 and then it was done, like it had disappeared. And 0:55:55.200 --> 0:55:57.600 I'd be interested to hear all of your insights, with 0:55:57.640 --> 0:56:01.200 all your experience in the movement and like what needs 0:56:01.200 --> 0:56:04.680 to be done. I guess to keep that organizing going 0:56:05.680 --> 0:56:09.880 as wearing this kind of Nadir or thermidor of like 0:56:09.960 --> 0:56:12.640 anti fascist organizing in the US. 0:56:12.719 --> 0:56:14.920 If I could offer something from maybe a little bit 0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:19.759 of a longer view, you know. Yeah, you know, Darrell 0:56:19.840 --> 0:56:23.080 talked about somebody being killed and that never happening before, 0:56:23.200 --> 0:56:25.160 but of course it has happened before. And so in 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:28.600 nineteen seventy nine there was a death of the Clan 0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:32.319 rally in Greensboro, North Carolina, and people were you know, 0:56:32.400 --> 0:56:36.400 attacked and killed by an alliance of the clan and 0:56:36.440 --> 0:56:42.239 the Nazis with you know, the ATF had people in 0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:45.080 one and the I forget I think the FBI had 0:56:45.120 --> 0:56:48.319 people in the other and were instrumental in bringing the 0:56:48.320 --> 0:56:52.239 two forces together to attack the anti Clan group and 0:56:52.560 --> 0:56:55.279 several people were killed in that. And then the same 0:56:55.320 --> 0:56:55.640 thing with. 0:56:55.640 --> 0:56:56.440 Aar in. 0:56:58.360 --> 0:57:02.400 Las Vegas. Lynn spit new Born, a black tattoo artist, 0:57:02.480 --> 0:57:07.200 and Darren Shirsey was actually I think a sailor, active 0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:10.120 duty sailor who were in anti racist action in Las 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:14.560 Vegas were executed and killed by neo Nazis there. And 0:57:14.640 --> 0:57:16.600 so I think there is a history of that that 0:57:16.640 --> 0:57:19.400 we need to be aware of, but also that there's 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:23.640 ups and downs and lulls in both fascist organizing anti 0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:25.720 fashion organized. One of the things that happened after the 0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:31.760 seventy nine killings is that Ronald Reagan launched his campaign 0:57:31.840 --> 0:57:37.160 for president in Philadelphia, Mississippi, the scene of the killing 0:57:37.280 --> 0:57:42.160 of schwar Er Chainyan Goodman, on a state frights platform, 0:57:42.200 --> 0:57:44.680 And while he was president, you know, I brought in 0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:48.120 Pat rob Pat Buchanan and you know, went to Bittberg. 0:57:49.440 --> 0:57:51.760 So there's a long history of the state, you know, 0:57:52.320 --> 0:57:53.920 playing foot seat with these people, and I think we 0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:57.400 should recognize that, but also that there are going to 0:57:57.400 --> 0:58:02.360 be ups and downs in and both fascists and anti 0:58:02.360 --> 0:58:06.120 fascist organizing, and you know, just see that that I 0:58:06.160 --> 0:58:08.920 think the longer range perspective that is important to understand. 0:58:09.320 --> 0:58:10.840 The other thing I did want to take a little 0:58:10.880 --> 0:58:14.040 exception to is the idea that the role of anti 0:58:14.080 --> 0:58:17.520 fascist is to destroy fascists, and I think that I 0:58:18.080 --> 0:58:21.160 don't completely agree with that analysis. I think that it's 0:58:21.240 --> 0:58:24.160 critical that actually anti fascists force to see themselves as 0:58:24.200 --> 0:58:28.000 part of a revolutionary transformation of this society and its entirety, 0:58:28.480 --> 0:58:31.880 and that the ability to actually reach an organizing people 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:34.600 has to do with making it clear that fascists are 0:58:34.640 --> 0:58:37.760 not proviting an alternative to what's wrong with the society 0:58:38.440 --> 0:58:41.120 although they claim to be and that we are, that 0:58:41.160 --> 0:58:46.520 we're part of liberatory and you know, self determination elements, 0:58:46.560 --> 0:58:50.440 anti colonial elements, you know, support for sovereignty of indigenous people, 0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:54.960 you know, support for LGBTQ people's rights and all those 0:58:54.960 --> 0:58:57.880 things that have a positive aspect of a way to 0:58:57.960 --> 0:59:00.560 reorganize society in a different way than the facts are 0:59:00.560 --> 0:59:03.240 putting forward. And I think that that is critically trying 0:59:03.240 --> 0:59:06.520 to sustain the base and build a base by you know, 0:59:06.640 --> 0:59:08.960 having a positive you know, one of the things that 0:59:09.000 --> 0:59:12.280 I've been doing for many years, I published Turning the Tide, 0:59:12.720 --> 0:59:14.880 which you know, started as a little zine we were 0:59:14.920 --> 0:59:19.240 sending to the other chapters of Anti Racist Action and 0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:21.560 also went to the prisons, and you know, eventually we 0:59:21.680 --> 0:59:25.240 changed the subtitle of that to the Journal of Intercommunal Solidarity. 0:59:25.440 --> 0:59:27.640 In the sense of saying, Okay, it's not just anti 0:59:27.720 --> 0:59:29.880 racist action, it's not just anti fashions, but what are 0:59:29.880 --> 0:59:31.680 we ford You have to have a positive if you 0:59:31.720 --> 0:59:33.400 really want to organize people, you have to have a 0:59:33.440 --> 0:59:35.720 positive sense of what they're struggling for, not just what 0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:36.760 they're struggling against. 0:59:37.440 --> 0:59:42.600 Yeah, Michael's right, Greensboro did happen. I was really referring 0:59:42.640 --> 0:59:46.200 to in recent time. It wasn't. It was the first 0:59:46.240 --> 0:59:49.760 time for myself to be at a rally and not 0:59:49.880 --> 0:59:54.840 see anyone and see somebody get murdered. But yes, Greensboro, 0:59:55.720 --> 0:59:59.760 November third, I believe, nineteen seventy nine in North Carolina, 1:00:00.120 --> 1:00:03.240 that happened, and all the clan members had actually gotten 1:00:03.240 --> 1:00:06.960 away with it. They did not, They were found, they 1:00:07.040 --> 1:00:11.440 cleared them. Meanwhile, federal court both. 1:00:11.480 --> 1:00:14.200 Their claim was that they were not. They were brought 1:00:14.320 --> 1:00:16.080 up in civil rights charges in federal court and they 1:00:16.080 --> 1:00:19.440 claim they weren't against black people, they were just against communists. 1:00:19.600 --> 1:00:23.440 And that right, there was something that even family members 1:00:23.440 --> 1:00:25.200 when I first heard of. Remember I'm a kid at 1:00:25.240 --> 1:00:29.080 this time. I'm sitting there listening to family members basically 1:00:29.200 --> 1:00:33.640 laugh about the situation because all they saw were clan 1:00:34.120 --> 1:00:36.640 and communists and they were just had the attitude of 1:00:36.800 --> 1:00:39.760 just let them kill each other. And that was actually 1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:42.160 a line that was said. I don't I don't know 1:00:42.600 --> 1:00:44.560 which family members said it, but that was a line 1:00:44.600 --> 1:00:46.760 that stuck with me since I was a kid and 1:00:46.840 --> 1:00:49.240 at the time I wasn't really politically a stud I 1:00:49.360 --> 1:00:53.240 just that's how I recalled that situation. And with Dan 1:00:53.320 --> 1:00:59.040 and Spit the Las Vegas murders that that is a 1:00:59.040 --> 1:01:03.440 different situation however, because that wasn't the rally they sought 1:01:03.520 --> 1:01:07.880 them out. That was basically on the off time, so 1:01:07.960 --> 1:01:12.959 to speak. Assassination. Yes, and we've seen that before, most 1:01:13.000 --> 1:01:18.120 certainly Luke Kerner from Portland for example. I mean he survived, 1:01:18.160 --> 1:01:21.040 but he's quadriplegic because somebody came after him. 1:01:21.880 --> 1:01:25.760 The German police intercepted one when Adam often came to 1:01:25.840 --> 1:01:27.400 Germany to try to get me. 1:01:27.520 --> 1:01:28.560 I don't know if you know about. 1:01:32.040 --> 1:01:34.840 I think because I have been fairly public. 1:01:34.880 --> 1:01:38.280 I've been docked and tracked down by fascists and several 1:01:38.280 --> 1:01:40.640 different occasions in different places that I lived in. You know, 1:01:40.720 --> 1:01:45.320 we've had armed patrols that you know, at various points 1:01:45.360 --> 1:01:48.480 that you know. It's clearly you know they do try 1:01:48.480 --> 1:01:53.000 to target people as well as you know, attacking mess action. 1:01:53.960 --> 1:01:56.640 Emily, you've gotten it as much as anyone I've ever 1:01:56.680 --> 1:01:59.280 seen in terms of doc saying and harassment and targeted 1:01:59.360 --> 1:02:00.600 attacks and threats like that. 1:02:02.440 --> 1:02:06.160 Wait, who are you referring to? Oh, I think we've 1:02:06.200 --> 1:02:07.760 all gotten it bad. I don't. I don't think that 1:02:07.800 --> 1:02:10.040 there's any there's no competition. 1:02:09.560 --> 1:02:14.360 Here contests who has the most death threads on. 1:02:18.920 --> 1:02:21.360 I did want to just jump back real quick to 1:02:21.600 --> 1:02:24.760 the thing that you were mentioning, Michael about you know, building, 1:02:25.320 --> 1:02:27.320 anti fascism needs to be about building, and I think 1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:30.760 that there's two there's two sides to this. I like 1:02:31.120 --> 1:02:33.240 to talk about, like the breaking work, which is what 1:02:34.080 --> 1:02:37.120 a lot of the street anty fascism is about. Right Like, 1:02:37.160 --> 1:02:40.280 sometimes Nazis come marching into your town and. 1:02:40.240 --> 1:02:41.120 You have to break that. 1:02:41.160 --> 1:02:42.920 You have to stop that, you have to confront that, 1:02:43.600 --> 1:02:46.400 and you have to do things to make it so 1:02:46.440 --> 1:02:48.040 that they don't want to come back into your town 1:02:48.160 --> 1:02:50.520 or any other towns like your town. And I think 1:02:50.520 --> 1:02:53.080 that that's breaking work, you know, the work of cracking 1:02:53.120 --> 1:02:56.200 down Nazis, docsing them, exposing them, whatever, that's breaking work. 1:02:56.960 --> 1:03:01.120 I think that in the last few years has become 1:03:01.240 --> 1:03:04.800 more high profile for various reasons. But I think that 1:03:04.960 --> 1:03:08.040 as we're looking at you know, what you were mentioning there, 1:03:08.240 --> 1:03:12.120 like the anti trans legislation, the rise of the political 1:03:12.160 --> 1:03:16.360 far right in government in power, we do need a 1:03:16.440 --> 1:03:21.560 different solution. I'm not saying that you can't go out 1:03:21.600 --> 1:03:25.360 and like intercept Ron DeSantis's motorcade and like punch them. 1:03:25.240 --> 1:03:25.720 In the face. 1:03:26.040 --> 1:03:28.640 I am saying it will probably end very badly for 1:03:28.680 --> 1:03:31.720 you if you try to do that, right, So, maybe 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:36.400 what we actually also need is to try to build 1:03:36.400 --> 1:03:39.360 those alternative structures that are not reliant on the state. 1:03:39.480 --> 1:03:39.640 Right. 1:03:40.720 --> 1:03:44.240 You know, when we see these these trans bands coming 1:03:44.240 --> 1:03:47.000 in like it's a horrible thing, But the only thing 1:03:47.040 --> 1:03:49.880 that actually comes through my mind is we have more tools, 1:03:49.920 --> 1:03:53.280 more resources now to create the networks of support than 1:03:53.320 --> 1:03:57.200 we've ever had in history. A lot of our energy 1:03:57.240 --> 1:04:01.439 should be pouring into supporting those networks, supporting that that care, 1:04:01.520 --> 1:04:05.800 supporting that mobility and that freedom of movement, rather than 1:04:06.000 --> 1:04:08.440 just trying to run up against this brick wall that 1:04:08.600 --> 1:04:14.680 is this Republican you know, behemoth that is moving you 1:04:14.960 --> 1:04:18.360 forward into all of our rights. Like we're not going 1:04:18.360 --> 1:04:20.240 to face it down head on. We need to go 1:04:20.280 --> 1:04:22.600 around it in some way. And I think that that 1:04:22.600 --> 1:04:24.920 that going around it is going to require that building, 1:04:24.960 --> 1:04:30.880 that community, that that sort of redevelopment of those alternative structures. 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:33.760 So I think it's so important to have that as well. 1:04:33.920 --> 1:04:36.720 Big thanks to Shane Burley for setting up this conversation. 1:04:37.240 --> 1:04:40.720 The second half of our talk with Michael Novic, Emily Gorchinski, 1:04:40.760 --> 1:04:43.960 and Daryl Lamont Jenkins will be coming out tomorrow. We'll 1:04:43.960 --> 1:04:46.440 talk a bit more about the modern state of anti 1:04:46.480 --> 1:04:50.160 fascism and what things from the past might help inform 1:04:50.280 --> 1:04:54.280 us in the anti fascist struggle of today. See you 1:04:54.320 --> 1:05:12.840 on the other side, Welcome back to it could happen here. 1:05:12.960 --> 1:05:16.320 This is Garrison Davis. This episode is part two of 1:05:16.360 --> 1:05:20.120 a conversation that myself and James Stout had with some 1:05:20.160 --> 1:05:23.640 of the contributors to a book by AK Press titled 1:05:23.720 --> 1:05:28.200 No Passeran. It's an anti fascist anthology that talks about 1:05:28.320 --> 1:05:31.040 the modern anti fascist movement and some of the writer's 1:05:31.080 --> 1:05:34.960 own experiences with anti fascism. So we'll pick up our 1:05:34.960 --> 1:05:38.320 conversation basically right where we left off, talking about the 1:05:38.360 --> 1:05:42.920 modern state of anti fascism, anti fascists and like, you know, 1:05:43.000 --> 1:05:45.440 the left quote unquote in general right now is kind 1:05:45.480 --> 1:05:47.840 of in a weird place. You know, like a lot 1:05:47.840 --> 1:05:52.920 of people were you know, extremely kind of catalyzed after Charlottesville, 1:05:52.960 --> 1:05:56.120 and that led to a like massive resurgence of anti 1:05:56.200 --> 1:06:00.280 racist action, anti fascist action, and I think the quote 1:06:00.320 --> 1:06:04.160 unquote like Antifa movement of the twenty teens, as like 1:06:04.400 --> 1:06:08.120 was is probably one of the largest like politically radicalizing 1:06:08.200 --> 1:06:11.480 forces for people, especially people my age, people a little 1:06:11.520 --> 1:06:14.520 bit older. It's you know, it's very influential in what 1:06:14.560 --> 1:06:17.240 the kind of the modern like anarchists or you know, 1:06:17.360 --> 1:06:21.440 left you know scene is, and there's like there's a 1:06:21.520 --> 1:06:23.480 lot of positive parts of that. There's also you know, 1:06:23.520 --> 1:06:27.080 there's some some drawbacks for that as well. Kind of 1:06:27.120 --> 1:06:30.360 one one kind of recurring thing is that like when 1:06:30.400 --> 1:06:32.680 your only tool is a hammer, then everything is a nail, 1:06:33.000 --> 1:06:37.160 and there's certain elements of of like and and this 1:06:37.280 --> 1:06:40.320 like antifa notion or like people who like grew up 1:06:41.040 --> 1:06:43.600 with with like anti fascists and being their primary kind 1:06:43.600 --> 1:06:47.760 of mode of practice. Then it can be very easily 1:06:47.800 --> 1:06:54.480 turned horizontally. But you know, it's after after j six, 1:06:54.560 --> 1:06:57.680 after after Biinden's been inaugurated, we have had this very 1:06:57.680 --> 1:07:00.400 weird lull, but there's still been you know a lot 1:07:00.400 --> 1:07:03.200 of fascist mobilization. But this is the sort of response 1:07:03.240 --> 1:07:05.160 to it that you know, was very normalized in twenty 1:07:05.200 --> 1:07:08.720 eighteen has has definitely shifted. We we've seen, like, you know, 1:07:08.840 --> 1:07:12.120 the one thing that's been new is like you, like 1:07:12.200 --> 1:07:14.240 you mentioned regarding you know, Charlotte Speld there's a lot 1:07:14.280 --> 1:07:18.120 of like debate around if people should show up armed. 1:07:18.400 --> 1:07:20.680 We now have like the Drag Time Story Hour kind 1:07:20.720 --> 1:07:24.480 of defenses, like armed defenses with John Brown gun clubs 1:07:24.480 --> 1:07:27.640 becoming more popular. But you know, one of the kind 1:07:27.640 --> 1:07:30.320 of recurring things that everyone's kind of been talking about it. 1:07:30.680 --> 1:07:33.840 I've been hearing like there's so many parallels to for 1:07:33.920 --> 1:07:37.000 what we've been going through the past like five ten years, 1:07:37.040 --> 1:07:38.840 to other kind of things in the past. Like while 1:07:38.840 --> 1:07:41.919 all of the John Brown Anti Clan Committee stuff, there's 1:07:41.960 --> 1:07:45.160 just a lot of cyclical notions. I mean, even I'm 1:07:45.440 --> 1:07:49.320 here in Atlanta right now, there's this Rico grand jury indictment. 1:07:50.080 --> 1:07:53.280 Everyone's thinking about like green scare stuff. Even even John 1:07:53.320 --> 1:07:55.840 Brown Anti Clan Committee did grand jury resistance back in 1:07:55.840 --> 1:07:58.320 like the eighties. Like it's this this, These things have 1:07:58.440 --> 1:08:01.960 happened before. And I think one thing that you know, 1:08:01.960 --> 1:08:04.760 the quote unquote laughter anti fascists sometimes they're kind of 1:08:04.760 --> 1:08:08.880 bad at is actually passing down the history. There's this 1:08:08.920 --> 1:08:11.840 tendency that when people get involved, we're kind of forced 1:08:11.880 --> 1:08:14.400 to reinvent the wheel every time but it's like completely 1:08:14.600 --> 1:08:17.560 like unnecessary, but we tend to just keep trying the 1:08:17.640 --> 1:08:20.800 same things over and over again. So there's even people 1:08:20.880 --> 1:08:22.559 younger than me who weren't even old enough to get 1:08:22.600 --> 1:08:25.559 involved in anti fascist stuff in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, 1:08:25.840 --> 1:08:27.800 and they're now kind of growing up. There's still this 1:08:27.840 --> 1:08:31.439 fascist mobilization. You know, Liberals are kind of passive because 1:08:31.800 --> 1:08:34.040 they have their guy in the White House, and we're 1:08:34.040 --> 1:08:35.880 going to be reaching a really interesting tipping point in 1:08:35.880 --> 1:08:38.559 twenty twenty four. So for these types of people who 1:08:38.600 --> 1:08:41.400 are like either wanting to get involved or who are 1:08:41.400 --> 1:08:43.720 like just just starting to realize that, hey, maybe we 1:08:43.760 --> 1:08:46.120 should actually do something about all this stuff, especially as 1:08:46.160 --> 1:08:49.120 you know, trans existence is one of the main things 1:08:49.200 --> 1:08:51.720 under attack right now. What is kind of some like 1:08:51.800 --> 1:08:55.320 lessons from the passage you would like to be passed 1:08:55.320 --> 1:08:56.040 down to people. 1:08:56.760 --> 1:08:58.960 A couple of things that come to mind. I was 1:08:59.040 --> 1:09:02.680 reminded because James is in San Diego about you know, 1:09:03.080 --> 1:09:04.519 one of the things we haven't talked about at all 1:09:04.680 --> 1:09:07.720 is the border, and that's been a recurrent theme of 1:09:07.760 --> 1:09:10.760 the right and of the state, both in terms of 1:09:10.760 --> 1:09:15.120 building you know, a repressive apparatus so going back to 1:09:15.680 --> 1:09:19.840 you know, the early days of People Against Racist Terror, 1:09:19.880 --> 1:09:21.519 which is the group that I had in l A 1:09:21.520 --> 1:09:25.160 after John brand Ask and Anti Clan Committe left. One 1:09:25.200 --> 1:09:28.080 of the first actions we did was there was something 1:09:28.080 --> 1:09:31.320 called the American Spring at the Mexican Border, which was 1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:34.120 a neo fascist element. It kind of grew out of 1:09:34.160 --> 1:09:39.280 the previous Clan border Watch that David Duka done and 1:09:39.320 --> 1:09:41.840 they were trying to you know, build up a base 1:09:42.000 --> 1:09:46.519 of support for you know, very you know, close the borders. 1:09:46.560 --> 1:09:49.679 And so we did bring people from la and joined 1:09:49.720 --> 1:09:51.920 up with San Diego. And actually at one of those 1:09:52.040 --> 1:09:55.240 rallies somebody drove a car at and nearly hit someone 1:09:55.280 --> 1:09:59.320 from the the you know, the anti fascist forces. So 1:09:59.400 --> 1:10:02.760 I think that's an important piece of we should be 1:10:02.760 --> 1:10:05.960 thinking about the other thing in terms of killings and shootings. 1:10:06.240 --> 1:10:08.679 You know, somebody from the Red Nation was just shot 1:10:09.280 --> 1:10:12.920 in Albuquerque, and you know, I think that again, the 1:10:13.000 --> 1:10:17.120 question of Indigenous sovereignty and Indigenous rights is a leading 1:10:17.200 --> 1:10:19.639 edge of struggle. A lot of the struggles around missing 1:10:19.640 --> 1:10:22.559 and murdered Indigenous women have to do with the you know, 1:10:23.160 --> 1:10:26.559 fossil fuel industry and in the back in other places 1:10:26.560 --> 1:10:29.680 where you know, women have disappeared and been killed by 1:10:30.320 --> 1:10:34.200 you know, people in the fossil fuel industry basically, And 1:10:34.720 --> 1:10:37.320 I think bringing all that to bear is really critical 1:10:37.360 --> 1:10:41.880 to have the breadth of consciousness and the understanding that 1:10:41.920 --> 1:10:44.480 there is a global struggle that's going on and indigenous 1:10:44.520 --> 1:10:47.840 people in particular are part of that, about the survival 1:10:47.840 --> 1:10:50.599 of humanity and of the planet in a sense. And 1:10:50.680 --> 1:10:53.439 to situate anti fascist struggle in that context, I think 1:10:53.520 --> 1:10:56.759 is really really important and relates to who are our allies, 1:10:56.760 --> 1:10:59.559 who are leadership, where is the struggle being led by? 1:10:59.640 --> 1:11:02.240 And so you know, one of the things we uncovered 1:11:02.280 --> 1:11:05.639 here in La is that people involved in the militia 1:11:05.720 --> 1:11:10.720 movement started their operations by supporting Christian militias in Guatemala 1:11:10.840 --> 1:11:14.599 and the Philippines, attacking left forces in those countries and 1:11:14.640 --> 1:11:18.519 indigenous forces in those countries. And you know, having that 1:11:18.560 --> 1:11:20.920 global perspective, I think that's one of the really great 1:11:20.920 --> 1:11:23.040 strengths of the book. By the way, that I thought 1:11:23.200 --> 1:11:26.719 was really amazing, as the coverage of anti fascist movements 1:11:26.720 --> 1:11:29.640 all around the world, and you know, the anti fascists 1:11:29.640 --> 1:11:33.320 in India and so on, and having that sense that 1:11:33.400 --> 1:11:37.000 it's not just you know, people of European descent or 1:11:37.479 --> 1:11:39.840 you know, African Americans in the United States who are 1:11:39.840 --> 1:11:40.679 post to fascism. 1:11:40.680 --> 1:11:41.200 But there's a. 1:11:41.280 --> 1:11:45.000 Very very broad, you know, movement around the world and 1:11:45.240 --> 1:11:49.519 inside this country of people who are experiencing fascism literally 1:11:49.680 --> 1:11:53.240 all the time that you know, gives a strength to 1:11:53.240 --> 1:11:54.960 anti fascism. 1:11:55.000 --> 1:11:59.679 There is an exceptionalism that exists even in the left. 1:11:59.840 --> 1:12:04.080 American exceptionalism that exists even in the American left when 1:12:04.120 --> 1:12:07.920 it comes to how bad things are, how good we 1:12:07.960 --> 1:12:10.840 are at organizing or whatever. And I think that a 1:12:10.880 --> 1:12:12.680 lot of the time is one of the things that 1:12:14.080 --> 1:12:17.160 we often forget is that we are not the only 1:12:17.200 --> 1:12:22.360 people going through this, both in time and space. Right 1:12:22.400 --> 1:12:26.639 there's movements that are going on elsewhere that are facing 1:12:26.720 --> 1:12:29.400 a much deeper sort of repression than what we see 1:12:29.400 --> 1:12:32.920 in the United States, and they are still finding ways 1:12:32.920 --> 1:12:35.200 to organize. I like to do you know when we 1:12:35.240 --> 1:12:38.320 talk about like the attack on queer rights, and you. 1:12:38.280 --> 1:12:38.960 Know, things like. 1:12:40.400 --> 1:12:43.840 All of these hateful laws that are being passed, which 1:12:43.840 --> 1:12:46.320 will almost certainly be thrown out in the courts, and 1:12:46.360 --> 1:12:48.719 that's you know, it's going to be a couple of years. 1:12:48.720 --> 1:12:51.880 But you know, people are saying, well, this is going 1:12:51.880 --> 1:12:54.720 to make Pride illegal, and this is you know, this 1:12:54.880 --> 1:12:57.200 is the worst thing. This is like, you know, a 1:12:57.200 --> 1:12:59.360 step towards genocide and all of that stuff. And I 1:12:59.360 --> 1:13:02.080 think it's actually important for us to put things in perspective. 1:13:02.680 --> 1:13:08.920 Istanbul has a much stricter set of restrictions on we 1:13:09.000 --> 1:13:12.200 are organizing quirget demonstrations. Pride happens every year. Pride is 1:13:12.200 --> 1:13:15.360 attacked by cops every year. They still continue to persist. 1:13:15.560 --> 1:13:19.639 What can we learn as Americans from that movement. 1:13:20.400 --> 1:13:23.080 I think that's a really important thing for the American 1:13:23.080 --> 1:13:28.519 anti fascist scene to really start to think around and 1:13:28.560 --> 1:13:31.400 try to take this moment. As you mentioned, there's a 1:13:31.520 --> 1:13:35.439 lull that is happening now, both in the organizing and 1:13:35.520 --> 1:13:38.320 in the popular support. We need to take that moment 1:13:38.360 --> 1:13:41.360 to reflect on what is working, what is not, to 1:13:41.479 --> 1:13:45.760 regroup and to find new approaches, new tactics. This is 1:13:45.760 --> 1:13:48.040 something that I write about in the chapter I wrote 1:13:47.880 --> 1:13:52.800 on trans anti fascism. Right, we need to, like, we 1:13:52.880 --> 1:13:57.360 need to absolutely bring in historical contexts and comparative analysis 1:13:57.600 --> 1:14:01.679 into our into into what we're doing. But that does 1:14:01.720 --> 1:14:03.720 not mean that we need to say that everything is 1:14:03.760 --> 1:14:06.760 literally the Holocaust. What we need to do is look 1:14:06.800 --> 1:14:09.120 at what are the factors, what are the causes, what 1:14:09.160 --> 1:14:12.400 are the root causes of the things that are happening, 1:14:12.680 --> 1:14:16.519 and how can we strategically organize to disrupt and to 1:14:16.760 --> 1:14:21.200 bypass those forces. So I think it's really important to 1:14:21.280 --> 1:14:23.640 have that multifaceted perspective. 1:14:24.720 --> 1:14:28.880 I think that Emily is touched on something that is 1:14:28.920 --> 1:14:31.639 really important. When we say that the police are are 1:14:31.680 --> 1:14:37.920 attacking pride events, pride marches and such, that suggests that 1:14:39.640 --> 1:14:45.320 somebody initiated something on our side. That speaks to what 1:14:45.360 --> 1:14:48.720 it is we have to do. We have to initiate 1:14:49.640 --> 1:14:52.800 certain actions. We cannot keep waiting for the fashions. We 1:14:52.840 --> 1:14:56.519 can't keep waiting, we can't keep being reactive. We do 1:14:56.640 --> 1:14:59.280 have to go on the offense. I mean, that's one 1:14:59.320 --> 1:15:04.599 of the reasons myself and me and others have been 1:15:05.960 --> 1:15:08.880 so successful. It is because we don't wait for the 1:15:08.880 --> 1:15:12.519 fascists to do something. We do something to them before 1:15:13.080 --> 1:15:17.160 they make a move. And we know when to do 1:15:17.200 --> 1:15:19.960 it because they basically send us signals out courtesy of 1:15:20.000 --> 1:15:23.920 their free speech, that they want to do something, and 1:15:24.800 --> 1:15:28.120 we just take those cues and say, okay, here's how 1:15:28.160 --> 1:15:30.840 we are going to go forward. We're going to let 1:15:30.880 --> 1:15:33.559 people know about you. We're going to let people know 1:15:33.640 --> 1:15:36.800 how to keep you at bay. I mean, that's the 1:15:36.920 --> 1:15:39.720 kinds of things that we need to do. We need 1:15:39.760 --> 1:15:43.960 to just basically say we are establishing this institution, we 1:15:44.000 --> 1:15:48.439 are establishing the security around this institution, and you are 1:15:48.479 --> 1:15:52.200 not going to be able to breach this institution. The 1:15:52.280 --> 1:15:53.920 other thing that we do need to do in that 1:15:54.439 --> 1:15:58.680 while we build that is also make it clear to 1:15:58.920 --> 1:16:01.000 some of those that lack of a better term, or 1:16:01.000 --> 1:16:05.200 wishy washy on the subject, are more mainstreamers and liberals 1:16:05.200 --> 1:16:10.080 and such who are quick to defend the fashionsts that 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:13.000 they say they don't believe in before they defend us. 1:16:13.280 --> 1:16:16.679 We gotta start telling them to chill, and we gotta 1:16:16.680 --> 1:16:20.120 start telling them to pick a side and stop getting 1:16:20.160 --> 1:16:23.760 in everybody's way. Stop being a bulwark because you're too 1:16:23.840 --> 1:16:28.280 cowardly to put up this fight or you're too interested 1:16:28.400 --> 1:16:33.240 in protecting your other interests as opposed to being concerned 1:16:33.280 --> 1:16:37.080 about what's coming down the pike. The book starts off 1:16:37.840 --> 1:16:42.360 with a discussion about a three way fight. We definitely 1:16:42.640 --> 1:16:43.360 are in one. 1:16:43.720 --> 1:16:45.920 Do you want to explain what a three way fight is. 1:16:46.560 --> 1:16:48.920 Well three way fight is not only you're dealing with 1:16:50.560 --> 1:16:53.799 the obvious enemy, so to speak, but you're also dealing 1:16:53.840 --> 1:16:56.360 with those that are hesitant to do something about that 1:16:56.840 --> 1:16:59.240 enemy to the point that they will fight you more. 1:17:00.800 --> 1:17:03.519 To the point that they will fight you more. And frankly, 1:17:04.520 --> 1:17:08.400 it's frustrating. It is a frustrating thing. But it is there, 1:17:08.560 --> 1:17:12.680 and it has been there through our history, and I 1:17:12.720 --> 1:17:15.599 mean even the mo I mean, I'm surprised I'm actually 1:17:16.280 --> 1:17:18.840 referencing a Mel Gibson movie, but even the movie Brave 1:17:18.840 --> 1:17:23.880 Heart brought that up. Now, I don't think that we 1:17:24.000 --> 1:17:26.320 need to smack people upside their head with a mace, 1:17:26.880 --> 1:17:29.200 but by the same token, we do have to let 1:17:29.240 --> 1:17:31.679 people know that we do have to be a little 1:17:31.680 --> 1:17:35.880 bit more I should say, assertive in our efforts as 1:17:35.920 --> 1:17:40.920 we go forward and basically try to route this particular 1:17:40.960 --> 1:17:45.640 fascist element, and an assertive means blowing past those that 1:17:45.680 --> 1:17:48.679 are supposed to be on our side. I mean, because 1:17:48.680 --> 1:17:53.000 I was thinking about the fact that this is now 1:17:53.040 --> 1:17:58.360 the twelfth anniversary of Occupy Right, and Occupy was trying 1:17:58.439 --> 1:18:02.559 to do that. Occupy it's still trying to do that. 1:18:02.600 --> 1:18:06.120 In many respects. The folks that were in Occupy, but 1:18:06.320 --> 1:18:10.559 some of the folks, because what you also saw at 1:18:10.600 --> 1:18:12.840 Occupy were a lot of folks who thought that they 1:18:12.840 --> 1:18:16.240 will be able to take advantage of the progress that 1:18:18.000 --> 1:18:21.519 we were making in this effort and turned it into 1:18:21.560 --> 1:18:23.559 a more fascist thing. I mean, I was just looking 1:18:23.560 --> 1:18:26.080 at a lot of the characters that come out of 1:18:26.120 --> 1:18:30.439 Occupy that went to the fascist side, and when you 1:18:30.520 --> 1:18:33.599 look at who they are, you realize that you had 1:18:33.600 --> 1:18:37.320 a whole bunch of opportunities that were within our ranks 1:18:37.320 --> 1:18:40.320 that were looking for something totally different than what the 1:18:40.360 --> 1:18:42.360 rest of us. We were looking out for each other 1:18:42.720 --> 1:18:44.920 and Occupy. The true people that were dealing with Occupy 1:18:45.000 --> 1:18:47.720 Wall Street were looking out for each other in our communities. 1:18:47.960 --> 1:18:51.439 These guys just thought, hey, perfect opportunity to just say 1:18:51.479 --> 1:18:54.200 that we're one with them and drag them over here 1:18:54.200 --> 1:18:59.040 to the right. That's strasserism, that straight up stratsirism. But 1:18:59.080 --> 1:19:01.400 when you look at it even further, it's just a 1:19:01.439 --> 1:19:04.240 bunch of people that only cared about themselves ultimately. And 1:19:04.280 --> 1:19:07.519 we've seen it after year after year in this fight. 1:19:08.040 --> 1:19:11.560 So I think that it's going to be very important 1:19:11.960 --> 1:19:16.439 to build and protect our institutions and recognize what it 1:19:16.520 --> 1:19:20.559 is we are protecting them from. And it's not hard. 1:19:20.920 --> 1:19:23.680 We have shown over and over and over again that 1:19:23.720 --> 1:19:27.439 we are prepared to weigh that kind of war. We 1:19:27.640 --> 1:19:30.720 just have to basically recognize it within ourselves when we 1:19:30.840 --> 1:19:33.840 have to do it. And that's just. And do not 1:19:33.960 --> 1:19:38.040 wait for people to die. I mean, Heather Hire did 1:19:38.120 --> 1:19:41.719 not have to die. No one in January sixth, regardless 1:19:41.760 --> 1:19:44.479 of how I feel about any of them had to die. 1:19:44.960 --> 1:19:47.960 That should not be the thing that we should respond to. 1:19:48.120 --> 1:19:51.240 We already know what to do, we just need to 1:19:51.280 --> 1:19:51.639 do it. 1:19:52.640 --> 1:19:55.080 Yeah, I think it picked up on a lot of 1:19:55.280 --> 1:19:59.280 what everyone said, especially Michael. I think part of what 1:20:00.040 --> 1:20:02.280 gets out here is having a place for like broad 1:20:02.360 --> 1:20:05.040 social movements where they're able to interact with one another 1:20:05.080 --> 1:20:08.200 and support one another. So anti fascist movements as a 1:20:08.240 --> 1:20:12.080 defensive movement have often been essential to actually operating other 1:20:12.240 --> 1:20:14.519 kinds of organizing, you know. So like when I was 1:20:14.800 --> 1:20:17.760 working with houseless encampments and we were doing food not 1:20:17.800 --> 1:20:20.240 bombs and stuff. You get attacked by far right groups, 1:20:20.240 --> 1:20:22.080 you had to have a defense development. There was no 1:20:22.240 --> 1:20:22.880 other choice. 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:23.360 Same thing. 1:20:23.360 --> 1:20:25.240 I've been at union offices that were attacked by the 1:20:25.280 --> 1:20:27.559 far right, you have to have that defensi development. And 1:20:27.600 --> 1:20:30.960 then on the same token, we're talking about mass actions 1:20:31.280 --> 1:20:35.639 against far right demonstrations. It requires people that are coming 1:20:35.640 --> 1:20:38.200 probably from all kinds of political backgrounds, but they've gotten 1:20:38.240 --> 1:20:41.760 involved from different kinds of practices. We're having mutual aid 1:20:41.800 --> 1:20:45.800 networks that support people getting there, sustaining themselves there, medical care, 1:20:45.880 --> 1:20:49.640 all kinds of component pieces. So those things require that 1:20:49.760 --> 1:20:52.160 kind of back and forth. And I think that also 1:20:52.600 --> 1:20:55.720 begs to how do you get people in. We're talking 1:20:55.760 --> 1:20:57.920 about a lot of problems with people on like the 1:20:57.960 --> 1:21:00.880 moderate left not kind of taking the next steps, those 1:21:00.920 --> 1:21:03.600 defensive steps that are necessary, but also how do we 1:21:03.640 --> 1:21:06.040 find a pathway for them in? You know, if we're 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:09.800 talking about mass participation in something, if we're talking about 1:21:09.800 --> 1:21:12.280 like a revolutionary movement with huge masses of people, we 1:21:12.400 --> 1:21:14.519 have to figure out what those pathways for people are 1:21:14.560 --> 1:21:17.880 and giving them access to them. And I think also 1:21:18.080 --> 1:21:21.080 moving past what we've thought of as the far right before. 1:21:21.240 --> 1:21:23.880 I mean, people have talked about this a little bit. 1:21:24.280 --> 1:21:26.320 You know, a lot of what we think of as 1:21:26.320 --> 1:21:29.080 recent anti fascism was built around finding the alt right 1:21:29.479 --> 1:21:32.519 and other kind of recent short term projects and what 1:21:32.560 --> 1:21:34.720 we have now is just radically different, just like it 1:21:34.760 --> 1:21:37.040 will be in a few years, and so having a 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:40.400 deep kind of intersexual understanding of how that works, because 1:21:40.439 --> 1:21:42.519 when you do that, you have that kind of natural 1:21:42.600 --> 1:21:45.080 understanding of where that's going to show up again, how 1:21:45.120 --> 1:21:47.799 it might interact with different communities, and what rule places 1:21:47.800 --> 1:21:49.720 for you, How are you able to interact with it 1:21:49.880 --> 1:21:51.839 as this person coming into a social movement. 1:21:52.280 --> 1:21:54.960 Yeah, I mean, especially considering something I've been kind of 1:21:55.120 --> 1:21:57.040 watching and we're seeing a little bit of it with 1:21:57.080 --> 1:22:00.240 this with this set of Republican primaries, is that we 1:22:00.280 --> 1:22:03.479 have an incoming new wave of kind of gen z 1:22:03.720 --> 1:22:07.320 and millennial Republicans who grew up in the alt right 1:22:07.320 --> 1:22:09.800 era who are now bringing that sort of like alt 1:22:09.840 --> 1:22:14.280 right street politics to electoralism, and how that's going to 1:22:14.320 --> 1:22:16.640 be a posed it's going to be. You know, I 1:22:17.560 --> 1:22:19.040 was just talking about before how we shouldn't just try 1:22:19.080 --> 1:22:21.280 to like retread the same ground over and over and 1:22:21.360 --> 1:22:23.160 without learning the histories from the past. But like this, 1:22:23.439 --> 1:22:25.320 for a lot of people who have just been doing 1:22:25.439 --> 1:22:28.920 like street politics the past few years, figuring out how 1:22:28.920 --> 1:22:31.360 they're going to oppose like fascism in this much more 1:22:31.400 --> 1:22:34.840 like electoral setting. It's going to be an interesting shift because, yeah, 1:22:35.240 --> 1:22:37.679 you can like punch Richard Spencer and no one really 1:22:37.680 --> 1:22:41.280 cares too much. But if you punch someone like you know, DeSantis, 1:22:41.479 --> 1:22:44.400 that is going to be a different thing to kind 1:22:44.400 --> 1:22:47.840 of sort through. And so, yeah, I think that is 1:22:48.160 --> 1:22:50.080 kind of one of these shifts that you know, maybe 1:22:50.200 --> 1:22:53.920 maybe coming up here soon and whatever kind of evolves 1:22:54.040 --> 1:22:56.320 on the anti fascist side to kind of meet that 1:22:56.479 --> 1:22:58.720 is going to be interesting to watch and take part in. 1:22:59.640 --> 1:23:01.920 Yeah, I think that, you know, the part of the 1:23:02.040 --> 1:23:05.400 ARA analysis has always been that fascism is built from 1:23:05.400 --> 1:23:07.479 above end below, and I think we really have to 1:23:07.560 --> 1:23:11.080 understand that that the fascism is fascism is not only 1:23:11.560 --> 1:23:14.040 the factor of the street politics and the people who 1:23:14.080 --> 1:23:17.240 declare themselves to be fascist, but that there are fascist 1:23:17.320 --> 1:23:19.600 elements in the structure of this society, and there are 1:23:19.720 --> 1:23:23.599 fascist elements in power in this government right now. And 1:23:23.880 --> 1:23:26.120 you know, the fascism has come to power in quite 1:23:26.120 --> 1:23:29.840 a number of you know, in Italy, neo fascists as 1:23:29.840 --> 1:23:34.040 the prime Minister in you know, in the United States, 1:23:34.800 --> 1:23:38.720 Matt Gates, and that element has a clear you know, 1:23:38.760 --> 1:23:42.320 they're in power within the Republican Party they control the 1:23:42.360 --> 1:23:46.280 House representatives in a way, and I think that that's 1:23:46.320 --> 1:23:50.760 a critical understanding. But also it speaks to the fact 1:23:50.800 --> 1:23:54.479 that fascist practices and elements exist in a lot of 1:23:54.479 --> 1:23:56.760 different places. And I think one of the things I've 1:23:56.760 --> 1:24:00.160 always tried to put out to people is that this 1:24:00.320 --> 1:24:03.680 is an aspect of the nature of imperialism, central colonialism, 1:24:03.680 --> 1:24:07.000 and I want to emphasize that because I think there's 1:24:07.040 --> 1:24:10.760 a fractal character to what we're dealing with or holographic, 1:24:10.800 --> 1:24:13.080 you know, there's any element of this society that you 1:24:13.120 --> 1:24:17.080 attempt to deal with, you're actually facing the entirety of 1:24:17.160 --> 1:24:21.040 imperialism and fascism there. So if you look at the 1:24:21.080 --> 1:24:23.919 labor movement right now, labor is a big resurgence, particularly 1:24:23.960 --> 1:24:26.479 here in southern California. There have just been you know, 1:24:26.600 --> 1:24:29.040 the hotel workers and restaurant works on strike, the screen 1:24:29.040 --> 1:24:33.080 actors on strike, the writers go on strike, and the 1:24:33.120 --> 1:24:36.799 fact that there, you know, there is a fascist element 1:24:36.880 --> 1:24:41.000 to the employment structure and trying to organize it. If 1:24:41.000 --> 1:24:44.160 you look what happened with the Amazon union, or just 1:24:44.240 --> 1:24:47.360 the fact that again going back in history, you know, 1:24:47.400 --> 1:24:53.480 the Taft Hartley Act was written to criminalize you know, communists, 1:24:53.520 --> 1:24:57.400 and also solidarity with the labor movement and outlaw, you know, 1:24:57.479 --> 1:25:01.000 solidarity strikes and that's fascist, that is you have to 1:25:01.080 --> 1:25:04.040 understand that. And you know, one of the reasons that 1:25:04.080 --> 1:25:06.720 the Puerto Rican Dependence Movement attack Congress was that the 1:25:06.800 --> 1:25:11.000 US attempted to put the taft Tartly Act into practice 1:25:11.040 --> 1:25:15.600 against the labor in Puerto Rico, and the Nationalist Party said, no, 1:25:15.640 --> 1:25:19.200 we're going to counterattack. So I think that that's a 1:25:19.240 --> 1:25:22.879 really critical understanding. We started out talking about the prisons, 1:25:23.000 --> 1:25:26.880 and you know, there's nothing more fascists's in prison. And 1:25:26.960 --> 1:25:28.599 one of the things they do in prison is they 1:25:28.680 --> 1:25:32.080 use privilege to try to divide the prisoners, you know, 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:34.559 and we haven't talked much about privilege and how it 1:25:34.600 --> 1:25:37.000 operates in the society, but you know, it's a key 1:25:37.040 --> 1:25:41.799 factor in how people are are organized by the system 1:25:42.240 --> 1:25:49.000 to collaborate to you know, get along by going along 1:25:49.240 --> 1:25:53.120 and so. But even inside the prisons we've seen here 1:25:53.120 --> 1:25:57.639 in California and elsewhere, you know, the Alabama, Georgia, elsewhere, 1:25:58.000 --> 1:26:01.920 prisoners are able to organize under conditions of fascism that 1:26:02.040 --> 1:26:04.320 exist in the prisons. They have ways to communicate with 1:26:04.320 --> 1:26:07.360 each other they've built into racial solidarity in many cases. 1:26:07.720 --> 1:26:10.880 So I think those are examples of anti fascism that 1:26:10.880 --> 1:26:13.800 we need to embrace and understand the same way that 1:26:13.800 --> 1:26:18.080 people organ you know, if you're organizing a union, you're 1:26:18.120 --> 1:26:22.040 operating on a certain level clandestinely, because if you're open 1:26:22.080 --> 1:26:24.880 about it, you're going to get fired, and they're going 1:26:24.880 --> 1:26:27.000 to retaliate and they're going to Anybody you talk to 1:26:27.120 --> 1:26:29.080 is going to get fired. So we need to have 1:26:29.120 --> 1:26:32.440 an understanding of ways to organize that are not always 1:26:33.080 --> 1:26:35.000 I'm not talking about arms struggle, but I'm saying that 1:26:35.080 --> 1:26:37.880 people have to organize below the radar when you're dealing 1:26:37.920 --> 1:26:41.080 with fascism, especially when it's in power, and fascism isn't power, 1:26:41.120 --> 1:26:43.040 and a lot of sectors of the society right now 1:26:43.080 --> 1:26:46.080 and people are dealing with it, as Emily said about 1:26:46.400 --> 1:26:51.400 you know, Istanbul and Pride marches, you know, so you know, 1:26:51.560 --> 1:26:55.080 I think we need to make those connections into the 1:26:55.120 --> 1:26:57.400 labor movement, into the prison movement, into the you know, 1:26:57.520 --> 1:27:01.719 formally incarcerated people's movement, you know, the solidarity with indigenous 1:27:01.760 --> 1:27:05.599 druggers are going on against fascist the colonization of their 1:27:05.720 --> 1:27:09.559 lands and struggles, and I think that if we understand 1:27:09.560 --> 1:27:12.439 that that's an aspect of anti fascism, I think it 1:27:12.479 --> 1:27:15.240 actually strengthens what we're engaged in. 1:27:16.040 --> 1:27:19.719 Definitely. I think it's also important just to, like, I guess, 1:27:19.800 --> 1:27:22.719 if people are thinking about their organizing, and it's always 1:27:22.720 --> 1:27:25.200 important to hear from those struggles as well as you know, 1:27:25.240 --> 1:27:27.559 to to include them, but to really include them in 1:27:27.560 --> 1:27:31.559 a sense of like listening and learning from rather than 1:27:31.600 --> 1:27:34.599 sort of telling and saying this is like a cis 1:27:34.600 --> 1:27:38.599 hat white guy. It's definitely a thing that I've perceived 1:27:38.600 --> 1:27:40.560 in the movement in the last few years is a 1:27:40.640 --> 1:27:43.639 desire to speak a little more and listen a little less. 1:27:43.920 --> 1:27:46.479 And one thing I enjoyed about your book is that 1:27:46.520 --> 1:27:51.719 when we talk about fascism, and we'd already mentioned Michael's 1:27:51.760 --> 1:27:54.280 mentioned the border as a sort of a location for 1:27:54.360 --> 1:27:57.960 fascist experiments within the United States, which I think it's 1:27:58.120 --> 1:28:00.760 very hard to argue against living on the border. If 1:28:00.800 --> 1:28:04.080 you protested in twenty twenty against police violence, you were 1:28:04.080 --> 1:28:06.679 surveiled using technology that has been used for years where 1:28:06.720 --> 1:28:11.080 I live, against migrants and citizens who live here. But 1:28:12.520 --> 1:28:16.080 I really liked your perspective on looking at global fascisms, 1:28:17.040 --> 1:28:20.439 because fascism is it's very easy to spend too much 1:28:20.560 --> 1:28:23.920 time defining fascism, especially as anti fascists, right, Like, it's 1:28:23.960 --> 1:28:26.439 extremely easy to be like, it's not fascism unless it 1:28:26.439 --> 1:28:28.720 comes from the Fascia region of Italy, kind of like 1:28:28.720 --> 1:28:34.559 this like cheese or champagne definition of fascism. But like 1:28:34.760 --> 1:28:37.320 they've focused on, for instance, fascism in India, Like if 1:28:37.320 --> 1:28:38.759 I go to the border, I was at the border 1:28:39.880 --> 1:28:42.360 a couple of days ago, right that there are tons 1:28:42.400 --> 1:28:45.320 of Punjabi Sikh people camped out in the desert right 1:28:45.320 --> 1:28:47.360 now because border patroller are holding them in an open 1:28:47.400 --> 1:28:51.200 air concentration camp, essentially because of what's happening in India 1:28:51.280 --> 1:28:54.320 that they turn up here, right and as well as 1:28:54.320 --> 1:28:58.760 bringing sort of migrant detention resistance and migrant mutual aid 1:28:58.760 --> 1:29:01.160 and twenty fascism. I think it's in n AETI fascists also, 1:29:01.280 --> 1:29:06.680 like we can take concrete action to protect and like 1:29:07.520 --> 1:29:10.479 to care for victim survivors of fascisms. I guess people 1:29:10.479 --> 1:29:15.040 who fled fascism, and like, when I think about what 1:29:15.520 --> 1:29:17.639 my backgrounds in the study of the Spanish Civil War, 1:29:17.720 --> 1:29:21.360 right that that's what my PhD is about the thing 1:29:21.520 --> 1:29:26.600 that radicalized young often Jewish men growing up in the 1:29:26.600 --> 1:29:30.479 same part of New York that you did, was often 1:29:31.080 --> 1:29:35.840 seeing people fleeing fascism coming to their communities and then 1:29:35.960 --> 1:29:39.120 being like, we can't allow that not only to not 1:29:39.320 --> 1:29:42.519 happen here, but the crucial step that like, we can't 1:29:42.560 --> 1:29:46.360 allow that to happen anywhere, and that being what kind 1:29:46.360 --> 1:29:50.600 of motivated them to travel to Spain, and many of 1:29:50.720 --> 1:29:52.720 many of them died fighting in the Spanish Civil War, Right. 1:29:52.920 --> 1:29:55.400 But I think we could do better to do that 1:29:55.840 --> 1:29:59.240 as well. Like now, I know not all of us 1:29:59.240 --> 1:30:03.360 are living in the To States right now, but sometimes, 1:30:03.800 --> 1:30:08.040 like Emily said, American anti fascism can be very exceptionalist 1:30:08.120 --> 1:30:10.200 or whatever. But I think that we have so much 1:30:10.240 --> 1:30:14.759 to learn from anti fascists in my sort of formative 1:30:14.760 --> 1:30:17.599 experiences who were in Catalonia, in Spain, but also in India, 1:30:18.600 --> 1:30:23.679 also in Russia, right, And I wonder if anyone could 1:30:23.720 --> 1:30:27.719 shell like sort of I guess concrete ways that people 1:30:27.800 --> 1:30:32.720 listening can help to expand that solidarity into an international 1:30:32.720 --> 1:30:33.560 anti fascism. 1:30:34.400 --> 1:30:36.880 I think there's an interesting example, and it gets to 1:30:36.920 --> 1:30:40.759 what Michael was stressing about fascism being kind of colonial 1:30:40.840 --> 1:30:42.920 rule brought back to homeland. 1:30:43.360 --> 1:30:43.719 You know. 1:30:45.200 --> 1:30:47.599 A lot of the methods that were used against kind 1:30:47.600 --> 1:30:51.160 of mid century anti fascist organizers, for example, the Anti 1:30:51.240 --> 1:30:55.000 Nazi League or later anti fascist action in the UK. 1:30:55.120 --> 1:30:59.479 We're basically test run against Irish Republicans in Northern Ireland, right, 1:30:59.520 --> 1:31:03.280 So those uprisings, different kind of methods of crowd control, 1:31:03.880 --> 1:31:07.439 use of quote unquote non lethal weapons, different kinds of 1:31:07.479 --> 1:31:10.479 forms of incarceration, and then used later against the Anti 1:31:10.600 --> 1:31:13.000 Nazi League. So there's sort of a step. They're taking 1:31:13.040 --> 1:31:15.960 this colonial rule back home that's the testing ground, and 1:31:15.960 --> 1:31:19.559 then using it domestically. And I think what that actually 1:31:19.600 --> 1:31:23.080 does is create a certain bridge between two communities that 1:31:23.120 --> 1:31:25.559 there's now a point of connection where they can relate. 1:31:25.640 --> 1:31:27.760 That doesn't mean they're in the same situation, right, Like 1:31:27.800 --> 1:31:30.439 it doesn't mean that like someone protesting in the United 1:31:30.439 --> 1:31:32.920 States is in the same situation as someone in to 1:31:32.920 --> 1:31:36.160 call in my space. But having that shared system that 1:31:36.200 --> 1:31:39.639 actually binds us together in that sense of solidarity, that's 1:31:39.680 --> 1:31:42.160 a new model of safety, that's a new model of community. 1:31:42.240 --> 1:31:46.080 So it's now seeing my strength in that alignment with 1:31:46.120 --> 1:31:49.640 someone else, So connecting with communities internationally, learning from what 1:31:49.640 --> 1:31:53.040 they're doing, but making real connections between them, ones that 1:31:53.120 --> 1:31:56.559 have a real sense of weight between them, where someone's 1:31:56.600 --> 1:31:59.960 success in international social movement has real effect on your 1:32:00.080 --> 1:32:02.800 lives and back and forth. I think committing to that 1:32:03.200 --> 1:32:05.680 is actually the kind of biggest thing we can do 1:32:06.400 --> 1:32:09.759 that creates an international movement and it makes everyone stronger, 1:32:09.800 --> 1:32:10.719 everyone more effective. 1:32:11.560 --> 1:32:12.280 Yeah. 1:32:12.360 --> 1:32:15.479 Yeah, I think one of the strengths of anti racist 1:32:15.560 --> 1:32:18.360 action was that it was always an international organization. It 1:32:18.479 --> 1:32:20.600 was US and Canada, and there were a lot of 1:32:20.680 --> 1:32:23.880 chapters in Canada, and that really helped break some of 1:32:23.920 --> 1:32:29.040 the US exceptionalism understanding. But he also had corresponding organizations. 1:32:29.040 --> 1:32:34.200 It was Resistancia, Redskin in Colombia, in Bogaton, and a 1:32:34.280 --> 1:32:37.400 couple of like Colleie. I think, and you know, I 1:32:37.439 --> 1:32:40.519 think that that really is an important element. And again 1:32:40.560 --> 1:32:42.320 what I said is that we need to understand that, 1:32:42.760 --> 1:32:46.679 you know, similar to what Lennon said about the Russian Empire, 1:32:46.680 --> 1:32:49.160 that is the prison house of nations, that there are 1:32:49.240 --> 1:32:51.720 captive nations inside the borders of the United States, and 1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:56.240 that you know, indigenous sovereignty and you know Puerto Rican independence, 1:32:56.280 --> 1:32:59.200 and you know Hawaiian sovereignty and a lot of other issues. 1:32:59.240 --> 1:33:02.600 And I think those are things that you know, the 1:33:02.600 --> 1:33:07.040 fascists try to exploit. Also, you know, they present themselves, 1:33:07.080 --> 1:33:10.240 you know, fascionism presents itself in the Third World as 1:33:10.280 --> 1:33:13.480 a strategy for you know, national dependence. When the Japanese 1:33:13.560 --> 1:33:14.800 you know, empire. 1:33:14.760 --> 1:33:15.519 But it so forward. 1:33:15.560 --> 1:33:18.679 It was the you know, they presented themselves as being 1:33:18.720 --> 1:33:23.000 opposing British and US imperiless in Asia. You know that, 1:33:23.680 --> 1:33:26.320 and you know then they were imposing their own imperialism. 1:33:26.400 --> 1:33:29.400 But you know that that internationalist element I think is 1:33:29.439 --> 1:33:34.679 really critical. And uh, I think the same thing in labor. 1:33:34.800 --> 1:33:37.360 I think that the labor movement, you know, needs in 1:33:37.400 --> 1:33:40.879 this country needs to think about, you know, prison struggles 1:33:40.920 --> 1:33:42.799 as part of the labor movement, needs to think about 1:33:42.880 --> 1:33:46.680 the internationalists aularity with labor struggles elsewhere. One of the 1:33:46.680 --> 1:33:51.360 things I raised with in relation to the Screen Actors 1:33:51.360 --> 1:33:53.760 Guild and Writers Guild here is that you know, they 1:33:53.920 --> 1:33:56.120 raised this whole thing about artificial intelligence. And I don't 1:33:56.120 --> 1:33:59.880 know if people are aware, but artificial intelligence depends on 1:34:01.000 --> 1:34:03.840 tens of thousands of people in the Philippines and elsewhere 1:34:04.280 --> 1:34:09.479 that are working you know, as gig workers processing stuff 1:34:09.479 --> 1:34:13.800 to put it into artificial intelligence. And you know, the 1:34:13.840 --> 1:34:18.519 same thing you're saying about the border, the technology of 1:34:20.160 --> 1:34:23.160 self driving vehicles is based on the same technology using 1:34:23.200 --> 1:34:26.480 to you know, for motion detection on the border. 1:34:27.560 --> 1:34:27.800 You know. 1:34:27.880 --> 1:34:30.680 And the reason they're doing that is also because the 1:34:31.400 --> 1:34:36.080 people driving self driving vehicles is not just Google and Uber, 1:34:36.320 --> 1:34:39.040 but it's the US Army Tank Division, which wants to 1:34:39.040 --> 1:34:42.679 have automated self driving tanks the same way they have drones. 1:34:43.320 --> 1:34:46.760 And having that understanding that it is up against the 1:34:46.760 --> 1:34:49.559 global system and the fascists or a piece of that, 1:34:49.640 --> 1:34:51.360 but they're not the only piece of that, I think 1:34:51.479 --> 1:34:53.880 is really really critical to understanding what we have to 1:34:53.920 --> 1:34:54.280 deal with. 1:34:54.880 --> 1:34:58.080 We talk about, you know, what would a fascist government 1:34:58.200 --> 1:35:01.720 look like if it was in control, you know, full 1:35:01.800 --> 1:35:04.840 control with no opposition. I think there are plenty of 1:35:05.360 --> 1:35:07.599 examples of that, and there's a fascist war happening right 1:35:07.640 --> 1:35:10.680 now in Ukraine, and I think that there's so much 1:35:10.720 --> 1:35:15.799 that we can learn from what is going on there 1:35:15.960 --> 1:35:19.880 that oftentimes I think that as anti fascists we find 1:35:19.920 --> 1:35:24.200 ourselves wanting to be with the left, that we get 1:35:24.800 --> 1:35:29.360 into a political situation that gets muddled. I went to 1:35:29.439 --> 1:35:33.639 the border twice in Ukraine when the war broke out. 1:35:33.960 --> 1:35:36.719 I would relive Unite the right one hundred times before 1:35:36.800 --> 1:35:39.479 I had to go back to that again. We don't 1:35:39.600 --> 1:35:42.920 understand scales until you have seen it, until you've seen 1:35:42.960 --> 1:35:46.559 the hundred or the thousand yards there from hundreds of people, 1:35:47.040 --> 1:35:49.920 you know, poring over the border. I'm sure James, you're 1:35:50.080 --> 1:35:53.240 you're you're very familiar with this, with the border work 1:35:53.280 --> 1:35:55.040 that you're doing there. 1:35:55.720 --> 1:35:56.960 These things are. 1:35:58.720 --> 1:36:02.840 So often distant to abstract to us that we we 1:36:03.200 --> 1:36:06.639 lose sight, that we think that we can influence things 1:36:08.000 --> 1:36:10.200 within our own spaces that will then have an impact 1:36:10.200 --> 1:36:13.920 on these bigger, bigger systems, and we can't write. So 1:36:13.960 --> 1:36:17.000 I think that you know, to go back to you know, 1:36:17.040 --> 1:36:19.000 what would be the call of action? You know, what 1:36:19.040 --> 1:36:21.560 would I want the listener to take take away from this. 1:36:22.160 --> 1:36:26.439 I think that this is about as somebody said earlier, listen, 1:36:27.680 --> 1:36:30.920 listen more, and speak less. Right, try to read, Try 1:36:30.960 --> 1:36:35.720 to to see what people elsewhere are doing, how they're organizing, 1:36:35.760 --> 1:36:38.800 what their needs are. You know, how do we do 1:36:38.920 --> 1:36:42.360 mutual aid in earthquake and flood stricken areas? How do 1:36:42.400 --> 1:36:45.800 we do mutual aid for refugees who are fleeing a war, 1:36:45.920 --> 1:36:48.880 and things like that. There's just so so much out 1:36:48.920 --> 1:36:51.960 there that we need to bring into perspective. And if 1:36:52.000 --> 1:36:53.800 you think that you can fix any of it, or 1:36:53.840 --> 1:36:56.759 even just a small part of it simply through speaking 1:36:56.840 --> 1:37:00.360 up or you know, awareness campaigns, I think that you'reld. 1:37:01.120 --> 1:37:04.519 So I think my call it action is go out, 1:37:04.720 --> 1:37:08.240 read books, meet people, get off of Twitter. Scrass for 1:37:08.280 --> 1:37:10.559 me to say it. But the master's tools can't dismantle 1:37:10.600 --> 1:37:15.479 the Master's house, right. We can't keep this pattern of 1:37:15.680 --> 1:37:20.040 outreach cycles up. In order to move the issue forward, 1:37:20.120 --> 1:37:22.799 we have to come up with something new. My challenge 1:37:22.800 --> 1:37:25.639 to people is to put your brains together and figure 1:37:25.640 --> 1:37:26.880 out what that new is going to look like. 1:37:27.880 --> 1:37:30.400 Maybe that's where we could end actually is with each 1:37:30.479 --> 1:37:35.400 of you suggesting something like Emily has just done right, 1:37:35.520 --> 1:37:38.160 something to read, something to do, and an action to 1:37:38.280 --> 1:37:42.360 take they could concretely help us oppose and rebuff and 1:37:42.800 --> 1:37:44.120 push back against fascism. 1:37:44.800 --> 1:37:46.519 I think it was pretty much going back to what 1:37:46.560 --> 1:37:53.639 I was saying earlier that it will begin when we 1:37:53.720 --> 1:37:56.799 take the bull by the horns. It will begin whenever 1:37:56.960 --> 1:38:01.080 we decide that we are going to with establish this. 1:38:01.600 --> 1:38:04.479 I mean, it goes back. You know, I grew up 1:38:04.520 --> 1:38:09.520 with hip hop. I was in the punk scene. Both 1:38:09.560 --> 1:38:14.639 those genres, both those cultures were created by people who 1:38:14.800 --> 1:38:21.400 by those who didn't see, say the mainstream listening to them. 1:38:21.520 --> 1:38:23.519 So they said, you know what, we don't need them. 1:38:23.800 --> 1:38:25.599 We need to just go ahead and do what we 1:38:25.640 --> 1:38:29.080 need to do so we can benefit what it is 1:38:29.120 --> 1:38:30.760 we want to do. And that's the attitude that we 1:38:30.840 --> 1:38:33.679 got to have. We got to have that hip hop attitude, 1:38:33.680 --> 1:38:36.320 gotta have that punk attitude, and we just simply got 1:38:36.360 --> 1:38:41.760 to build the institutions that will address the situation. And 1:38:41.800 --> 1:38:43.840 I will say it again, that's what Occupy was about. 1:38:45.360 --> 1:38:48.080 I think we need to continue to learn the lessons 1:38:48.080 --> 1:38:52.559 from Occupy in order to go forward. And once we 1:38:52.640 --> 1:38:55.360 start doing that, first of all, when we do that, 1:38:55.400 --> 1:39:01.160 we're going to see again people trying to either co 1:39:01.240 --> 1:39:07.080 op or or take it down. And we got to 1:39:07.080 --> 1:39:09.800 also protect ourselves from from that as well. I mean, 1:39:10.080 --> 1:39:12.360 I know I'm repeating what I had said earlier, but 1:39:12.600 --> 1:39:15.960 I think that the solutions and you know what what 1:39:16.080 --> 1:39:19.400 I didn't say, I think the solutions are already being implemented. 1:39:19.479 --> 1:39:22.400 I think that we are all have been working and 1:39:22.520 --> 1:39:26.400 doing this. Folks that aren't on this Folks that aren't 1:39:26.439 --> 1:39:30.120 on this podcast, folks that would never be on any 1:39:30.120 --> 1:39:32.920 pockets are just basically putting their time and to make 1:39:33.000 --> 1:39:36.719 sure that the things are done properly. I just got 1:39:37.120 --> 1:39:40.960 I just saw on the news that they had in Delaware, 1:39:41.000 --> 1:39:47.160 they just passed the law against I guess what they 1:39:47.200 --> 1:39:52.160 call panic panic killings in regards to the l g 1:39:52.280 --> 1:39:55.120 B t Q community. You know that what they also 1:39:55.240 --> 1:39:59.840 call back in the day, the gay panic thing defense. Yeah. Yeah, 1:40:00.280 --> 1:40:05.760 Delaware became the seventeenth state, I believe, yesterday to make 1:40:05.800 --> 1:40:08.880 that illegal. It should have been illegal in the first place, 1:40:09.600 --> 1:40:14.479 but they basically for those who don't know what that means, 1:40:14.520 --> 1:40:18.200 it generally means you cannot kill somebody because you're freaked 1:40:18.200 --> 1:40:21.200 out over someone being gag. I mean, that's just basically 1:40:21.200 --> 1:40:25.400 what it is concerned for. It happened after Jenny Jones. 1:40:26.040 --> 1:40:32.559 Somebody expressed their feelings towards another man, and that person 1:40:32.640 --> 1:40:37.439 after the Jenny Jones show, had murdered that person, and 1:40:37.800 --> 1:40:40.679 the killer, instead of getting first degree murder, got second 1:40:40.680 --> 1:40:43.840 degree murder because he used the gay panic defense. So 1:40:43.920 --> 1:40:47.760 people initially, so that was where everything started and everybody 1:40:47.920 --> 1:40:51.120 was saying that we got to do something about that. 1:40:51.439 --> 1:40:56.000 If it was not for us putting together the mechanism 1:40:56.040 --> 1:41:00.680 and the institutions to basically basically voiceocers and voice our 1:41:00.720 --> 1:41:03.719 issues and say we got to do something about this today, 1:41:03.760 --> 1:41:06.479 would that have happened. It should not be seventeen states, 1:41:06.479 --> 1:41:09.160 by the way, it should be all fifty. But that's 1:41:09.160 --> 1:41:11.040 the kind of things that we need to do. These 1:41:11.080 --> 1:41:15.400 are the things that it's all going to depend on 1:41:15.680 --> 1:41:20.200 us and how we act to things that is going 1:41:20.200 --> 1:41:23.639 to make all the difference in the world. So when 1:41:23.640 --> 1:41:26.880 everybody's ready, that's rock and roll. 1:41:28.200 --> 1:41:31.720 I think I'm really interested in getting people connected to 1:41:31.840 --> 1:41:35.439 social movements for their entire lives and seeing things through 1:41:35.560 --> 1:41:37.599 being really connected with the communities. And I think that's 1:41:37.640 --> 1:41:41.559 about looking about where people fit in, where they feel 1:41:41.560 --> 1:41:44.600 comfortable building those relationships because it happens both at the 1:41:44.640 --> 1:41:47.920 kind of local and national international scale. So finding I 1:41:47.960 --> 1:41:50.639 think a piece and pathway for folks. I mean, right now, 1:41:50.800 --> 1:41:56.000 I think considering what we're dealing with climate and economic collapse, 1:41:56.080 --> 1:41:58.560 mutual aid networks or a natural central piece of that. 1:41:58.720 --> 1:42:00.120 So it's a labor movement. 1:42:00.840 --> 1:42:02.760 And going where the far right is. 1:42:02.720 --> 1:42:05.400 Having their front lines, making our defensive front lines. So 1:42:05.479 --> 1:42:08.320 for example, in defense of trans healthcare against that that 1:42:08.360 --> 1:42:12.400 trans legislation, and defense of queer events like directing story 1:42:12.400 --> 1:42:16.240 are that's absolutely important and we have those relationships now. 1:42:16.280 --> 1:42:18.400 So it's about sort of finding a place to be 1:42:18.439 --> 1:42:22.120 able to reproduce those social movements and grow them. And again, 1:42:22.160 --> 1:42:24.200 like Daryl said, people are doing that, and I think 1:42:24.320 --> 1:42:26.680 like as there are shifts, people have to kind of 1:42:26.680 --> 1:42:29.640 redefine that a little bit. But having that adaptability is 1:42:29.680 --> 1:42:32.160 what we've kind of learned over this rapidly changing environment 1:42:32.200 --> 1:42:33.240 the last few years. 1:42:33.560 --> 1:42:36.840 Yeah, I'll tacond again to give people a little bit 1:42:36.880 --> 1:42:39.120 of sense of the longer view. I think that the 1:42:39.200 --> 1:42:41.160 rise of the Christian Right in this country has a 1:42:41.160 --> 1:42:43.280 lot to do with the destruction of the labor movement 1:42:44.080 --> 1:42:48.600 and the collapse of organized labor. Was that vacuum was 1:42:48.640 --> 1:42:52.760 filled by, you know, the Christian right, because the labor 1:42:52.800 --> 1:42:55.920 movement at one point did touch people throughout their lives 1:42:56.880 --> 1:42:59.719 and their culture, and it was not just in your workplace, 1:42:59.760 --> 1:43:02.880 but it was a community organization. And I think that 1:43:02.920 --> 1:43:05.760 we have to rebuild that, you know, from the bottom up, 1:43:05.960 --> 1:43:08.960 and it is happening. There's a lot of young people 1:43:09.000 --> 1:43:11.880 involved in labor organizing. I think that again what I 1:43:11.960 --> 1:43:14.320 said earlier about the fractal nature of the system, I 1:43:14.360 --> 1:43:15.880 think one of the things people left in the name 1:43:15.960 --> 1:43:18.800 is anything they're trying to do, they have an enemy. 1:43:18.800 --> 1:43:20.920 It's not just a problem that they're trying to face. 1:43:20.960 --> 1:43:23.640 They have there is an enemy out there that is 1:43:23.640 --> 1:43:27.920 trying to enforce the system that we have as it collapses. 1:43:28.080 --> 1:43:31.519 And I think that that's critical. So, yes, the mutual 1:43:31.520 --> 1:43:33.400 aid and the kind of things Emily was talking about, 1:43:33.640 --> 1:43:36.720 I think are critical. I think people are working on 1:43:36.760 --> 1:43:39.720 people's assemblies. I was at this dual power gathering and 1:43:40.080 --> 1:43:42.919 the Midwest, and there was just one up in Portland recently. 1:43:43.200 --> 1:43:46.719 And I think that the understanding that all the power 1:43:46.760 --> 1:43:49.320 and all the wealth that this system possesses is actually 1:43:49.840 --> 1:43:53.360 stolen from the people that it oppresses and exploits, and 1:43:53.400 --> 1:43:55.200 that it's our power and it's our power to take 1:43:55.200 --> 1:43:57.679 it back. We have the creative power. I think that's critical, 1:43:58.280 --> 1:44:01.920 and that their power is exploitive and power over an 1:44:01.920 --> 1:44:05.000 hour is the power, you know, to create. I think 1:44:05.400 --> 1:44:09.720 that understanding and that concept of solidary and I do 1:44:09.760 --> 1:44:13.280 think that you know again, Stephen Bico, part of the 1:44:13.320 --> 1:44:16.559 Black Conscience movement in South Africa, said the you know, 1:44:16.760 --> 1:44:19.880 the greatest weapon in the hands of the oppressor is 1:44:19.920 --> 1:44:22.400 the minds of the oppressed. And I think to the 1:44:22.439 --> 1:44:26.000 extent that we can wage to struggle for a different 1:44:26.040 --> 1:44:29.799 consciousness that is not based on privilege, is not based 1:44:29.840 --> 1:44:33.400 on getting along by going along, is not based on individualism, 1:44:34.240 --> 1:44:37.840 you know, but it is based on collective solidarity, and 1:44:37.960 --> 1:44:41.680 that actually disempowers the people that we're dealing with and 1:44:41.760 --> 1:44:44.080 threatens them in ways that you know, they're they're they're 1:44:44.120 --> 1:44:49.760 freaked out. They understand better than we do the the 1:44:49.800 --> 1:44:53.679 tenuous nature of their power. And you know, the reason 1:44:53.760 --> 1:44:56.200 for fascism to turn to fashions is that they want 1:44:56.240 --> 1:45:01.120 to try to intimidate people and you know, U you know, 1:45:01.200 --> 1:45:04.120 break people people solidarity up. And I think that that, 1:45:04.560 --> 1:45:06.680 you know, we need to understand there's a dialectic there 1:45:06.680 --> 1:45:11.280 and to the extent that we can create those connections 1:45:11.320 --> 1:45:15.599 between people that actually disempowers them, the fascists and the state. 1:45:16.120 --> 1:45:18.439 You know, I have a different perspective on the three 1:45:18.439 --> 1:45:21.400 way fight. I think the three way fight is versus 1:45:21.400 --> 1:45:25.360 the fascists, you know, the self declared fascists and against 1:45:25.400 --> 1:45:28.479 the state and the capitalist, the bourgeoisie, and you know, 1:45:28.520 --> 1:45:30.920 they're not identical. They have contradictions with each other, and 1:45:31.040 --> 1:45:33.200 we can exploit those and drive wages of our own. 1:45:33.520 --> 1:45:37.200 I think we have to find wedge issues that peel 1:45:37.240 --> 1:45:40.880 people off from their identification with the oppressor, with white 1:45:40.880 --> 1:45:46.000 supremacy and with imperialism, and you know, pull people together 1:45:46.080 --> 1:45:50.120 and then who've been you know, separated from that identification 1:45:50.200 --> 1:45:53.760 with the state and with white power, and bring them 1:45:53.760 --> 1:45:57.040 into solidarity with you know, the global majority of people 1:45:57.040 --> 1:46:00.679 who are struggling for you know, survival the better world. 1:46:01.680 --> 1:46:04.479 Does anyone have anything to plug besides the book? 1:46:05.080 --> 1:46:08.960 Yeah, explicitly plug the books. I don't think we did, Like, like, 1:46:09.040 --> 1:46:10.240 what where can you buy it? 1:46:10.280 --> 1:46:11.080 What's the code? 1:46:11.640 --> 1:46:11.920 Yeah? 1:46:12.360 --> 1:46:16.160 I can plug in and do the self promotion. So 1:46:16.280 --> 1:46:19.200 the book is no passon Anti Fascist Dispatches from a 1:46:19.240 --> 1:46:21.120 World on Crisis, So we all have chapters in it. 1:46:21.200 --> 1:46:24.680 I edited it. It's with AK Press, who listeners are 1:46:24.680 --> 1:46:27.559 probably familiar with, so you can get Akpress. Always recommend 1:46:27.600 --> 1:46:30.000 folks go to Akpress and buy directly if they can, 1:46:30.240 --> 1:46:33.840 but you can get it pretty much anywhere and it's 1:46:34.200 --> 1:46:36.519 a hefty read. It's about five hundred pages, about twenty 1:46:36.600 --> 1:46:39.120 five chapters, and it really covers the gamut. Some of 1:46:39.160 --> 1:46:41.120 the stuff we talked about, some stuff we didn't get to, 1:46:41.920 --> 1:46:44.240 so it's a really good overview of some of the 1:46:44.280 --> 1:46:48.000 different conversations happening in the anti fascist movement and hopefully 1:46:48.120 --> 1:46:49.280 where it goes in the future. 1:46:49.880 --> 1:46:50.920 Yeah, I'll take that. 1:46:51.000 --> 1:46:53.160 I think the chapter in anti Fascism in the black 1:46:53.200 --> 1:46:56.760 metal scene was really fascinating and worth the price of 1:46:56.760 --> 1:47:00.160 the book all by itself. Honestly, the stuff by India 1:47:00.280 --> 1:47:01.840 I did want to talk to other books. I've been 1:47:01.880 --> 1:47:05.080 involved in what is called the Blue Agave Revolution. It's 1:47:05.280 --> 1:47:11.879 self published myself and Olso Blanco, Indigenous political Prisoner Contact, 1:47:11.920 --> 1:47:15.280 Anti Racist Actions, anti Racist dot org or email me, 1:47:15.320 --> 1:47:17.960 Anti Racist on the Square, laid Yahoo dot com. I 1:47:18.000 --> 1:47:20.719 was also involved with, although I did edit or anything, 1:47:20.720 --> 1:47:22.880 but I contributed a lot of material to We Go 1:47:23.000 --> 1:47:25.920 Where They Go, which is from PM Press. It's the 1:47:26.000 --> 1:47:29.759 history of AAR and it's chock full of incredible material 1:47:29.800 --> 1:47:33.120 about you know, specificity. One of the things we didn't 1:47:33.120 --> 1:47:35.920 talk about AARs involved in was cop Watch. But you know, 1:47:36.160 --> 1:47:39.559 just a lot of you know cultural material and other 1:47:39.600 --> 1:47:41.200 stuff there that it's well worth reading. 1:47:42.200 --> 1:47:45.640 Well, I guess I'll chime in. I'd say I have 1:47:46.760 --> 1:47:49.559 a lot of stuff out there right now. One of 1:47:49.600 --> 1:47:52.560 the things that you can look for with me is 1:47:52.600 --> 1:47:55.160 a documentary that was put out in twenty eighteen called 1:47:55.280 --> 1:47:58.519 all Right, Age of Rage. It's somewhere online. I believe 1:47:58.520 --> 1:48:01.479 it's on TB right now. What was on Netflix. I 1:48:01.600 --> 1:48:04.320 found out that the reason why it's not on Netflix 1:48:04.320 --> 1:48:08.360 anyway is because Netflix has deemed it too political. But 1:48:08.400 --> 1:48:10.679 you can still find it out there. It's a really 1:48:10.720 --> 1:48:14.880 good remer on basically what it is we're fighting in 1:48:14.920 --> 1:48:18.720 this current time. We don't walk in fear is the 1:48:19.000 --> 1:48:21.160 is the latest documentary that I've been involved with. Some 1:48:21.200 --> 1:48:25.320 students in Villanova University wanted to do a documentary about me, 1:48:26.760 --> 1:48:31.760 and it's not exactly available to the public. What I've 1:48:31.800 --> 1:48:34.240 been doing. You can probably find it at film festivals 1:48:34.240 --> 1:48:37.240 and things like that. But what I've been doing is 1:48:37.760 --> 1:48:41.519 showing it at various events that I've been invited to, 1:48:42.240 --> 1:48:45.320 whether it's some sort of speaking engagement or what have you. 1:48:46.040 --> 1:48:49.720 So it's only a half hour long, but if anybody 1:48:50.520 --> 1:48:53.639 in a university or in a bookstore or whatever, and 1:48:54.040 --> 1:48:59.000 would like me to come out and show the documentary 1:48:59.040 --> 1:49:02.360 to folks and talk about it later. Please feel free 1:49:02.360 --> 1:49:05.320 to give me hit me up over at our website 1:49:05.800 --> 1:49:10.400 One People's Project dot com. We also have a newsline 1:49:10.640 --> 1:49:13.760 that's adevox dot com. Both of them on threads and 1:49:13.800 --> 1:49:19.000 on ig We also have also The last thing that 1:49:19.000 --> 1:49:22.559 I would like to hype is also in twenty eighteen, 1:49:22.960 --> 1:49:26.639 there are There was the movie Skin where Mike Culter 1:49:26.800 --> 1:49:30.000 who played Luke Cage and it's in the TV show Evil. 1:49:30.360 --> 1:49:35.320 He plays me. It's about a neo Nazi, someone from 1:49:35.360 --> 1:49:38.040 the villain the Social Club, one of the nastiest and forces, 1:49:38.240 --> 1:49:44.160 who got out thanks to myself and others. And it's 1:49:44.160 --> 1:49:47.679 a beautiful story and it's been out since twenty eighteen. 1:49:47.960 --> 1:49:51.040 The short film is a different story. I'm not gonna 1:49:51.040 --> 1:49:55.040 say too much about it because you need to watch it. 1:49:55.439 --> 1:49:57.719 You can find it on YouTube, or you can find 1:49:57.720 --> 1:50:01.800 a feature feature Skin on Amazon Prime. But you can 1:50:01.840 --> 1:50:04.719 find they find a short film on YouTube. It actually 1:50:04.760 --> 1:50:07.320 won an Oscar in twenty nineteen and I'm listening as 1:50:07.320 --> 1:50:09.360 a consulting producer, so I guess I have an oscar. 1:50:11.320 --> 1:50:13.840 And that's about it. I mean, if you want me 1:50:13.920 --> 1:50:18.280 to speak, come to your colleges or whatever to speak 1:50:18.439 --> 1:50:21.040 or show the documentary. We don't walk in fear. Feel 1:50:21.080 --> 1:50:22.560 free to give me a ring. I'll be happy to 1:50:22.560 --> 1:50:24.240 see you. I love traveling. 1:50:25.560 --> 1:50:27.479 I can mentioned one other things. Actually I did. We 1:50:27.640 --> 1:50:30.880 talked earlier. I am the intern general manager of KPFK 1:50:31.160 --> 1:50:34.040 ninety point seven FM in Los Angeles. It's one of 1:50:34.080 --> 1:50:37.920 the PACIFICA radio stations, so it's KPFK dot org. We 1:50:38.000 --> 1:50:40.920 have stopped labed spying on the radio. We have It's 1:50:40.960 --> 1:50:43.719 going down on the radio. We have Society of Native 1:50:43.800 --> 1:50:46.120 Nations and American Nadian Airwaves in the radio. We have 1:50:47.240 --> 1:50:50.680 La Rasa Radio, a lot of others very worthwhile. It's 1:50:50.760 --> 1:50:54.599 at KPFK dot org and we're in a current membership 1:50:54.680 --> 1:50:57.360 drive for October. Anyone else joined the station. They don't 1:50:57.479 --> 1:51:02.000 live in La Anti Racist dot org has about thirty 1:51:02.040 --> 1:51:03.720 five years of turning the tie and a bunch of 1:51:03.720 --> 1:51:06.120 stuff actually from earlier. I put some of the stuff 1:51:06.120 --> 1:51:08.439 from brother Reform from being in sexism but I worked 1:51:08.439 --> 1:51:11.160 on in the seventies up there, including a letter from 1:51:11.560 --> 1:51:14.880 Michelle McGee was just recently released. Finally, after I think 1:51:15.680 --> 1:51:19.759 forty eight years in prison, survivor of the Marine Courthouse rebellion. 1:51:20.439 --> 1:51:21.599 I don't have anything to plug. 1:51:21.640 --> 1:51:25.680 I have a book that I'm working on getting representation for, 1:51:25.920 --> 1:51:28.760 but that's still a little bit too early for me 1:51:28.800 --> 1:51:32.280 to plug. So I'll just maybe plug a little bit 1:51:32.320 --> 1:51:35.880 of what is continuing to happen in Charlottesville before we end. 1:51:35.960 --> 1:51:38.280 So some of you may. 1:51:38.160 --> 1:51:41.639 Not be aware that criminal cases are still being brought 1:51:42.080 --> 1:51:44.759 against the neo Nazis who marched with the tiki torches. 1:51:45.800 --> 1:51:50.360 We have sort of successfully convinced the local prosecutor. 1:51:51.160 --> 1:51:52.760 To do something about. 1:51:52.520 --> 1:51:57.559 These fascists who have obviously terrorized the community and continued 1:51:57.600 --> 1:51:58.400 to do it in. 1:51:58.280 --> 1:52:03.160 Their other communities. Whether or not you agree. 1:52:02.840 --> 1:52:07.320 With that approach, the community in Charlottesfield and Alcomorell still 1:52:07.320 --> 1:52:13.040 needs that support and that witnessing. As this all heads 1:52:13.040 --> 1:52:18.839 to trial this winter, we're expecting some renewed fascist attention. 1:52:19.080 --> 1:52:22.000 So I'll just give a shout out for the community 1:52:23.360 --> 1:52:23.960 and ask. 1:52:23.920 --> 1:52:25.840 For your awareness. 1:52:26.560 --> 1:52:28.519 Great, well, thank you very much for time everyone. I 1:52:28.520 --> 1:52:32.280 think that was really instructive and interesting, and yeah, everyone 1:52:32.280 --> 1:52:34.720 should read the book. I read much of it before 1:52:34.720 --> 1:52:37.880 we started today. It's great, it's very interesting. Yeah, thank 1:52:37.920 --> 1:52:38.639 you very much. 1:52:55.120 --> 1:52:57.760 Welcome to what could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. This 1:52:57.880 --> 1:52:59.920 is the show where we talk about how everything kind 1:52:59.920 --> 1:53:01.840 of feels like it's falling apart and how we can 1:53:01.920 --> 1:53:06.320 perhaps sometimes put some of that back together. In about 1:53:06.360 --> 1:53:09.080 a month's time, there's going to be what's being labeled 1:53:09.240 --> 1:53:13.960 a quote unquote mass nonviolent direct action converging on the 1:53:14.080 --> 1:53:17.479 Cop City construction site in Atlanta, Georgia. 1:53:17.600 --> 1:53:17.840 Now. 1:53:17.880 --> 1:53:20.800 A few weeks ago I interviewed the two people going 1:53:20.800 --> 1:53:24.679 around the country giving the block Cop City Speaking Tour 1:53:25.120 --> 1:53:29.280 in preparation for this upcoming action next month in Atlanta. 1:53:29.640 --> 1:53:32.000 Like always, the opinions of those interviewed on the show 1:53:32.080 --> 1:53:35.120 don't necessarily reflect the views of the show or myself. 1:53:35.479 --> 1:53:38.840 And with this action in particular, there has been quite 1:53:38.880 --> 1:53:42.280 the variety of opinions regarding its risk level and its 1:53:42.400 --> 1:53:47.519 ideological and tactical validity. But the action is going to happen. 1:53:47.720 --> 1:53:50.040 It is going to take place on November thirteenth, no 1:53:50.080 --> 1:53:53.400 matter you know some people disagreeing with aspects of it 1:53:53.840 --> 1:53:56.280 or having concerns about aspects of it, it is it 1:53:56.320 --> 1:53:59.320 is going to take place. So my interest in putting 1:53:59.360 --> 1:54:01.640 out this episode is to have a very open and 1:54:01.800 --> 1:54:04.960 clear discussion regarding some of the questions people have about 1:54:04.960 --> 1:54:08.880 this quote unquote non violent action and also provide enough 1:54:08.960 --> 1:54:13.120 informations that people can make their own informed decision regarding 1:54:13.160 --> 1:54:16.760 what's going to happen next November. So with that, here 1:54:17.000 --> 1:54:20.320 is my conversation with Sam and Jamie from the Block 1:54:20.360 --> 1:54:24.639 Cop City speaking tour. Joining me today is Sam from 1:54:24.680 --> 1:54:27.680 Block Cop City and Jamie Peck. Both of you have 1:54:27.720 --> 1:54:31.000 been going around the country I think it's around seventy 1:54:31.040 --> 1:54:34.120 cities right now, doing a speaking tour to talk about 1:54:34.240 --> 1:54:39.600 this upcoming action in November to Block cop City. Thanks 1:54:39.640 --> 1:54:40.240 for coming on. 1:54:40.280 --> 1:54:43.320 Guys, No problem, Yeah, thanks for having us. 1:54:43.840 --> 1:54:46.720 So I assume anyone who's listening to this is already 1:54:46.720 --> 1:54:51.360 familiar with cop City, whether through their own their own 1:54:51.400 --> 1:54:53.040 keeping up with the news, or even if they're just 1:54:53.600 --> 1:54:55.160 even if they just listen to the show. We have 1:54:56.480 --> 1:54:59.800 covered Coup City quite extensively the past like two years. 1:55:01.880 --> 1:55:04.640 So let's talk about this this kind of upcoming action, 1:55:04.720 --> 1:55:08.640 because it's very different than kind of the previous mobilizations 1:55:08.680 --> 1:55:11.880 that we've seen, which have taken form as like weeks 1:55:11.880 --> 1:55:16.120 of action. We had one last last June, we had 1:55:16.160 --> 1:55:19.640 one the previous March. So what's different about this new 1:55:19.720 --> 1:55:22.680 upcoming three day kind of mobilization. 1:55:23.440 --> 1:55:27.919 So yeah, obviously it's taking place on one day instead 1:55:27.920 --> 1:55:31.120 of a whole week, and there's gonna be two days 1:55:31.480 --> 1:55:34.800 of nonviolent direct action training leading up to the day 1:55:34.840 --> 1:55:37.520 of which would be really important to make sure that 1:55:37.600 --> 1:55:39.640 everybody feels prepared for what we're. 1:55:39.480 --> 1:55:40.160 About to do. 1:55:41.680 --> 1:55:44.320 It's different in a few different ways. I feel like 1:55:44.400 --> 1:55:48.160 this is a passover. I answering the four questions, Right, 1:55:48.160 --> 1:55:52.160 how has this action different from all other actions? Well, 1:55:52.960 --> 1:55:56.720 it's gonna be like a real centralization of efforts, right 1:55:56.760 --> 1:55:59.200 because other weeks of action have been a little more diffuse, 1:55:59.400 --> 1:56:01.960 a little more right out, And here we're sort of 1:56:01.960 --> 1:56:05.040 bringing to bear the full power of all the people 1:56:05.080 --> 1:56:08.000 coming from all over the country in the same place 1:56:08.120 --> 1:56:10.960 at the same time. Because there's safety in numbers and 1:56:10.960 --> 1:56:13.440 there's power in numbers. And I feel like the June 1:56:13.520 --> 1:56:16.320 Week of Action people were kind of going all over 1:56:16.320 --> 1:56:19.520 the place, not really sure what to do when. And 1:56:19.600 --> 1:56:21.160 I talk to a lot of people who were like, 1:56:21.600 --> 1:56:23.280 just tell us what to do, tell. 1:56:23.160 --> 1:56:25.480 Us what the move is on this particular day. 1:56:25.520 --> 1:56:27.800 And we'll be there and there is no one to 1:56:27.880 --> 1:56:31.400 do that, which you know is sometimes a hazard of 1:56:31.440 --> 1:56:34.920 sort of anarchistic movements. Right, nobody's in charge, and we're 1:56:34.920 --> 1:56:38.440 not in charge right now either. I should say. Everybody 1:56:38.560 --> 1:56:40.640 is going to have a chance to have input on 1:56:40.800 --> 1:56:43.760 the final plan in a thing called spokes councils that 1:56:43.800 --> 1:56:46.240 we're doing the weekend before the action. 1:56:46.760 --> 1:56:49.280 But yeah, I think we're picking. 1:56:49.000 --> 1:56:52.240 A lane, and we're doing a thing, and this particular 1:56:52.360 --> 1:56:54.959 lane has been chosen for a number of different reasons. 1:56:55.240 --> 1:56:55.440 Right. 1:56:56.200 --> 1:56:58.960 The movement is in an interesting place right. 1:56:58.840 --> 1:57:01.840 Now, where more people than ever know about cop City, 1:57:02.200 --> 1:57:03.600 more people than ever are. 1:57:03.520 --> 1:57:05.160 Opposed to cop City, as. 1:57:05.080 --> 1:57:09.080 Evidenced by the one hundred and twenty thousand petition signatures 1:57:09.120 --> 1:57:12.080 that the referendum campaign was able to collect to actually 1:57:12.400 --> 1:57:14.760 get a referendum on the ballot to let the people 1:57:14.760 --> 1:57:17.360 of Atlanta actually vote on whether or not they want 1:57:17.360 --> 1:57:18.000 this thing built. 1:57:18.080 --> 1:57:20.640 Of course, the city is throwing every trick in the book. 1:57:20.400 --> 1:57:22.000 At them because they do not want to let the 1:57:22.040 --> 1:57:26.800 people vote. But on the other hand, right, lots of 1:57:26.800 --> 1:57:29.080 people know about it, lots of people oppose it, but 1:57:29.320 --> 1:57:31.880 the number of people who are willing and able to 1:57:31.920 --> 1:57:35.440 show up and do direct action against it has dwindled, 1:57:35.520 --> 1:57:38.120 and that's for a few different reasons. Right, there's been 1:57:38.280 --> 1:57:41.760 so much repression of the movement. One hundred people at 1:57:41.840 --> 1:57:45.040 least are now facing charges. We've got people facing domestic 1:57:45.120 --> 1:57:49.520 terrorism charges, We've got people facing RICO charges, just like 1:57:49.600 --> 1:57:52.760 an absurd overreach of the state, even according to mainstream 1:57:52.800 --> 1:57:55.840 legal scholars. So we really need a way for people 1:57:55.880 --> 1:58:00.920 to feel empowered doing direct action again is what we've 1:58:00.960 --> 1:58:04.040 settled upon as a solution, and maybe Sam can take 1:58:04.040 --> 1:58:04.560 it from there. 1:58:05.360 --> 1:58:09.040 Sure, thanks, yeah, to build upon that, I suppose, Right, 1:58:09.640 --> 1:58:12.000 you were sort of asking why is it that less 1:58:12.000 --> 1:58:14.839 people than ever are taking embodied action in the forest, 1:58:15.360 --> 1:58:16.600 And one of those reasons also is. 1:58:16.560 --> 1:58:19.040 People have been directing attention to other initiatives. 1:58:19.120 --> 1:58:23.040 Right, So the one hundred and twenty thousand petition signatures is, 1:58:23.280 --> 1:58:26.360 you know, gathered by something like three thousand volunteers. 1:58:27.440 --> 1:58:30.200 There's all sorts of different parties throughout the movement who 1:58:30.240 --> 1:58:34.200 have been trying, you know, just another diverse tactic. 1:58:34.320 --> 1:58:36.760 Right, This movement has seen incredibly diverse tactics over the 1:58:36.840 --> 1:58:39.960 last two years, all sort of moving in unison with 1:58:39.960 --> 1:58:42.920 one another, and we sort of see block Top City 1:58:43.160 --> 1:58:48.520 as just another type of tactic in a larger repertoire 1:58:48.960 --> 1:58:52.680 of a toolkit. You know, we haven't actually had an 1:58:52.680 --> 1:58:56.240 instance of over a thousand people doing embodied direct action 1:58:56.360 --> 1:58:59.080 in the forest, like that's never occurred in this campaign. 1:59:00.480 --> 1:59:02.480 We've had a lot of people during some weeks of Action, 1:59:02.560 --> 1:59:04.320 but this is a little bit different in the scope. 1:59:04.440 --> 1:59:05.960 It's a little bit different in flavor. 1:59:06.600 --> 1:59:08.680 I liked what you were saying, Jamie about the sort 1:59:08.680 --> 1:59:11.040 of like a lot of other sort of convergences in 1:59:11.040 --> 1:59:14.520 Atlanta that were called weeks of action where we're distributed, 1:59:14.600 --> 1:59:18.440 we're very autonomously organized, and we're sort of treading a 1:59:18.440 --> 1:59:21.880 line between like the main sort of organizing style. You know, 1:59:21.920 --> 1:59:25.160 we're on tour right now, right calling in from Vancouver 1:59:25.240 --> 1:59:29.640 and you're over in Maine, vast continental wide tour. One 1:59:29.640 --> 1:59:31.720 of the primary functions of this tour is like the 1:59:31.760 --> 1:59:34.960 activation of affinity groups to sort of catalyze and come 1:59:35.000 --> 1:59:37.880 down to Atlanta so that crews can sort of have 1:59:39.000 --> 1:59:43.320 the confidence of flexibility, the warmth and the revelry that 1:59:43.360 --> 1:59:46.919 comes with moving through space with your homies, with your comrades, 1:59:47.400 --> 1:59:51.160 while at the same time there's a very large cohort 1:59:51.160 --> 1:59:55.240 of various logistical teams trying to figure out various programming events. 1:59:54.880 --> 1:59:58.080 The locations of these trainings, how to feed. 1:59:57.840 --> 2:00:01.240 People, how to house people, how to keep people entertained, 2:00:02.080 --> 2:00:07.320 things like that. So it's I think the scope is larger, 2:00:07.800 --> 2:00:11.720 potentially hitting eighty cities if we can finalize a few 2:00:11.720 --> 2:00:17.080 final requests and the sort of the action itself, right, so, 2:00:17.120 --> 2:00:20.040 as Jamie was saying, is sort of confined to one day, right, 2:00:20.080 --> 2:00:22.680 but it's a four day convergence. So the action itself 2:00:23.080 --> 2:00:25.480 is being Our goal is to sort of carve out 2:00:25.480 --> 2:00:26.360 of space. 2:00:27.760 --> 2:00:30.240 That day of on the morning of Monday, November. 2:00:29.880 --> 2:00:34.360 Thirteenth, which thousands of people can take embodied action together 2:00:34.400 --> 2:00:34.960 in the forest. 2:00:35.000 --> 2:00:38.160 Again, when you say like embodied action, this thing has 2:00:38.160 --> 2:00:43.560 been advertised as using quote unquote strategic non violence as 2:00:43.560 --> 2:00:46.160 opposed to like moralistic non violence, like where you like 2:00:46.200 --> 2:00:49.520 oppose violent direct action on principle. Instead, this has been 2:00:49.520 --> 2:00:52.880 trying to employ non violence as a strategic action. Do 2:00:52.880 --> 2:00:55.000 you want to talk a little bit about kind of 2:00:55.320 --> 2:00:58.520 how that's being envisioned, because I know there's certainly, even 2:00:58.560 --> 2:01:01.560 in Atlanta, there's a lot of people who are either 2:01:01.640 --> 2:01:06.040 skeptical or confused or fear that there's like other you know, 2:01:06.080 --> 2:01:08.960 safety issues with within action as public as this, right, 2:01:08.960 --> 2:01:11.480 because you're trying to get thousands of people to show up, 2:01:11.680 --> 2:01:13.720 So this is this very publicly announced thing, which also 2:01:13.760 --> 2:01:16.000 gives the police a big heads up. So I know 2:01:16.000 --> 2:01:17.480 there's been a lot of you know, there's there's a 2:01:17.520 --> 2:01:20.640 lot of questions, and I feel like, you know, the 2:01:20.720 --> 2:01:22.960 this this aspect of non violence is a very interesting 2:01:22.960 --> 2:01:25.320 one because the Defend the Atlanta Forest movement has been 2:01:25.440 --> 2:01:31.640 I think very historically defined by you know, very spontaneous, 2:01:31.680 --> 2:01:35.200 fiery acts of sabotage. So I guess, yeah, just that's 2:01:35.360 --> 2:01:37.600 I want to kind of I'm interested in this kind 2:01:37.600 --> 2:01:39.120 of strategic non violence aspect. 2:01:39.880 --> 2:01:42.040 Well, I don't know that it's been defined by these 2:01:42.040 --> 2:01:46.120 strategic acts of sabotage, which, by the way, I don't 2:01:46.120 --> 2:01:50.760 consider violence against private property to violence. Tend to apply 2:01:50.840 --> 2:01:56.120 that to human beings only. But yeah, we certainly we 2:01:56.160 --> 2:01:59.800 don't disavow violence. We don't dis about any tactics in 2:01:59.840 --> 2:02:03.320 the fight. I mean, the highest level of violence that 2:02:03.400 --> 2:02:07.240 any activists have even been accused of is probably about 2:02:07.280 --> 2:02:09.640 the same level that you'd find if you've ever had 2:02:09.680 --> 2:02:12.680 a Roman candle fight with your friends, right, you're shooting 2:02:12.720 --> 2:02:17.040 fireworks in each other's general direction. Obviously that wasn't happening 2:02:17.080 --> 2:02:20.520 for fun when folks did it in the activism world. 2:02:20.560 --> 2:02:23.800 But yeah, why non violence? 2:02:24.000 --> 2:02:27.200 Why now? It's a great question, and I think a 2:02:27.240 --> 2:02:27.560 lot of. 2:02:27.480 --> 2:02:30.240 It has to do with responding to the charges on 2:02:30.320 --> 2:02:30.800 the table. 2:02:31.520 --> 2:02:32.600 A lot of it has to. 2:02:32.560 --> 2:02:35.800 Do with wanting to create an easier on ramp for 2:02:35.880 --> 2:02:39.960 people and something that can be openly promoted because, you know, 2:02:40.320 --> 2:02:42.960 for better or for worse, the media has at times 2:02:43.000 --> 2:02:45.839 portrayed certain corners of the movement as these like scary 2:02:45.920 --> 2:02:49.120 eco terrorists, and you know, when people are doing a 2:02:49.200 --> 2:02:52.960 higher risk action, it's inherently something that you can't really 2:02:53.000 --> 2:02:56.520 go around the country talking about and engaging groups of people. 2:02:56.280 --> 2:02:56.880 That you don't know. 2:02:57.720 --> 2:03:00.320 So, you know, we wanted to strike this balance, right 2:03:00.360 --> 2:03:03.680 and what are we doing? Well, yes, technically it's a crime, 2:03:03.800 --> 2:03:06.920 so was what Martin Luther King did in the nineteen sixties, 2:03:07.600 --> 2:03:10.520 And we wanted to draw on that legacy, right, because 2:03:10.520 --> 2:03:13.480 the civil rights movement has a deep, deep legacy in 2:03:13.520 --> 2:03:14.760 Atlanta itself. 2:03:15.160 --> 2:03:18.080 So like we've had rallies at the MLK Center. 2:03:18.520 --> 2:03:21.960 And now, so, okay, we're doing a thing, right, There's 2:03:21.960 --> 2:03:25.360 a thousand people there, there's children, there's clergy, it's in 2:03:25.440 --> 2:03:28.920 broad daylight. The state is sort of caught in a 2:03:28.960 --> 2:03:33.400 buyant now because okay, it could arrest one thousand people 2:03:33.760 --> 2:03:38.560 in broad daylight and charge them with domestic terrorism. That 2:03:38.600 --> 2:03:41.040 would create a political crisis, and that would be an 2:03:41.080 --> 2:03:44.360 international outrage, and I think it would also be fairly unprecedented. 2:03:45.200 --> 2:03:48.640 It's possible that that would happen, although I don't think 2:03:48.720 --> 2:03:49.760 that's what's going to happen. 2:03:50.680 --> 2:03:52.520 There was recently a similar kind of. 2:03:52.440 --> 2:03:55.240 Direct action on the construction site that the Faith Coalition 2:03:55.280 --> 2:03:59.280 against Cop City did. Actually, five people chained themselves to 2:03:59.320 --> 2:04:02.640 the construction of equipment and they were arrested. They're all 2:04:02.680 --> 2:04:05.760 out on misdemeanors now, which is what you usually get 2:04:05.800 --> 2:04:10.280 charged with for a protest of that nature. Right, So, yeah, 2:04:10.280 --> 2:04:13.920 the state could hypothetically arrest a thousand people and charge 2:04:13.920 --> 2:04:17.000 them with terrorism. That would be an international outrage, that 2:04:17.000 --> 2:04:20.000 would be a political crisis. On the other hand, the 2:04:20.080 --> 2:04:23.440 state could do and there are signs that has been 2:04:23.440 --> 2:04:26.120 pulling back, right because what I just said, if the 2:04:26.160 --> 2:04:30.200 state charges people with misdemeanors for doing the exact same 2:04:30.240 --> 2:04:33.400 thing that people were recently charged with terrorism or hit 2:04:33.440 --> 2:04:36.880 with RICO charges for doing that will also serve to 2:04:36.920 --> 2:04:42.080 further delegitimize these charges for the people already facing them. 2:04:42.360 --> 2:04:45.760 Mass arrests are certainly pretty big concern for people when 2:04:46.160 --> 2:04:48.680 they're deciding if they want to go to such an action. 2:04:49.160 --> 2:04:52.320 And I mean, because this action is happening, and you know, 2:04:52.960 --> 2:04:55.560 one of the most I would say, it's probably in 2:04:55.560 --> 2:04:58.800 like the top five most police areas of the country 2:04:58.880 --> 2:05:02.080 right now, is in the South River Forest is specifically 2:05:02.120 --> 2:05:04.760 the Copsity construction site. It's certainly concerned a lot of 2:05:04.760 --> 2:05:07.600 people have, especially when you know we're talking about possibly 2:05:08.040 --> 2:05:10.800 police arresting hundreds of people try to kettle them in 2:05:10.880 --> 2:05:13.800 the site. It's it's certainly a very very valid concern 2:05:13.880 --> 2:05:14.080 to have. 2:05:14.720 --> 2:05:17.320 I'll also add a little bit to that. So for me, 2:05:17.520 --> 2:05:22.400 the the question of like mass arrest is actually maybe 2:05:22.400 --> 2:05:26.200 not even in the top five reasons why I'm interested in. 2:05:25.960 --> 2:05:27.080 Doing this campaign. 2:05:27.320 --> 2:05:30.720 I think it obviously is a possibility, right, I would 2:05:30.760 --> 2:05:34.320 say the goal of this action for me at least 2:05:34.480 --> 2:05:39.200 is not to get arrested. Yeah, obviously, like you know, 2:05:39.680 --> 2:05:42.600 many civil disobedience campaigns, like that's an explicit part of 2:05:42.600 --> 2:05:43.320 their understanding. 2:05:43.360 --> 2:05:45.280 Yeah, like a lot of change, right, Yeah, A lot 2:05:45.280 --> 2:05:47.920 of like the extinction rebellion kind of tactics, even some 2:05:47.960 --> 2:05:51.440 of them more kind of earth first tactics kind of 2:05:51.520 --> 2:05:55.680 revolve around being arrested as a part of the tactic itself. 2:05:56.000 --> 2:05:58.840 And there's certainly been a lot of pushback towards that 2:05:59.080 --> 2:06:02.320 type of like self sacrificial tactic here in Atlanta the 2:06:02.320 --> 2:06:04.800 past few years, and kind of in the general kind 2:06:04.800 --> 2:06:09.080 of anarchistic mill you that's kind of been like stewing that, 2:06:09.200 --> 2:06:11.680 you know, is is this kind of self sacrifice of 2:06:11.720 --> 2:06:16.480 being arrested actually useful in any way? And I'm sure 2:06:16.520 --> 2:06:18.400 that is part of part of some people's thought process 2:06:18.440 --> 2:06:20.720 going into this, is is you know, if there's a 2:06:20.760 --> 2:06:23.080 decent chance I am going to get arrested just for 2:06:23.160 --> 2:06:26.080 walking onto a site, is is it worth it? But 2:06:26.280 --> 2:06:30.120 sorry you were I realized I was interrupted you and 2:06:30.120 --> 2:06:32.120 went on a short, a short rant. 2:06:33.480 --> 2:06:35.480 No, that's okay, it's a it's a it's a very 2:06:35.480 --> 2:06:40.160 important issue to a lot of us, right, So, yeah, 2:06:40.240 --> 2:06:41.920 like sort of as I was saying, like that the 2:06:41.960 --> 2:06:44.680 goal of this act is action is not to get arrested. 2:06:44.720 --> 2:06:47.440 But but obviously, as you were saying, like we're waltzing 2:06:47.520 --> 2:06:51.480 onto the fucking sorry cops city construction site, it's a 2:06:51.600 --> 2:06:57.080 very good chance, to say the least. And but for me, 2:06:57.160 --> 2:07:01.480 the other interesting parts about this is right is embodied 2:07:01.480 --> 2:07:04.280 action in the forest has just not felt possible for 2:07:04.400 --> 2:07:07.160 months and months and months. There hasn't been an occupation 2:07:07.240 --> 2:07:10.600 of the forest since the cops killed tort in January 2:07:10.600 --> 2:07:13.200 of this year, except for a couple of days during 2:07:13.480 --> 2:07:16.240 the March Week of Action, But largely speaking, in the 2:07:16.280 --> 2:07:18.760 forests has been held by big scary men with big 2:07:18.800 --> 2:07:22.760 scary guns for many months now, and the horizons feel 2:07:22.800 --> 2:07:24.120 incredibly obscured. 2:07:24.720 --> 2:07:24.880 You know. 2:07:24.960 --> 2:07:29.920 It's it's very unclear what the movement could do right now, 2:07:29.960 --> 2:07:32.200 that could that could jump start our energies, that could 2:07:32.280 --> 2:07:35.280 serve as a container for the thousands and thousands and 2:07:35.320 --> 2:07:38.839 thousands of disillusioned and disenfranchised folks who have been working 2:07:38.920 --> 2:07:43.200 tirelessly at other methods of change as well. Right so, 2:07:44.200 --> 2:07:47.920 our sort of theory is the most powerful action that 2:07:47.960 --> 2:07:50.280 we can do is one that's sort of defined by 2:07:50.320 --> 2:07:53.480 our by our power in numbers, by our power in 2:07:53.560 --> 2:07:57.200 our unity by our power and sticking together in order. 2:07:57.280 --> 2:08:00.160 So for me, the interesting question isn't even necessarily what 2:08:00.240 --> 2:08:02.840 happens on November thirteenth of this year, the day of 2:08:02.880 --> 2:08:06.000 the action. For me, the interesting question is like, what 2:08:06.160 --> 2:08:09.000 new horizons does this open up in the movement? How 2:08:09.000 --> 2:08:12.280 we can reactivate and recatalyze our energy and understand and 2:08:12.360 --> 2:08:15.000 prove to ourselves in a collective fashion that embodied action 2:08:15.080 --> 2:08:18.320 in the forest is indeed possible at a math level, 2:08:19.080 --> 2:08:21.520 and this actually sort of seeks to advance the energy 2:08:21.520 --> 2:08:24.240 and the movement to a new height that hasn't actually occurred. 2:08:25.560 --> 2:08:29.240 What's going to happen is more people than ever will 2:08:29.240 --> 2:08:31.560 be in the forest together at the same time, and 2:08:31.640 --> 2:08:34.240 that right now is precisely what's needed in this. 2:08:34.280 --> 2:08:36.280 Moment, and the only way to do. 2:08:36.280 --> 2:08:40.440 That as we're doing this publicly and above ground one 2:08:40.560 --> 2:08:43.160 to help aid in that sort of facilitation of just 2:08:43.240 --> 2:08:47.080 a numbers game, right, and then two is like we 2:08:47.120 --> 2:08:49.080 want people to be able to make an informed and 2:08:49.160 --> 2:08:52.080 consensual decision on how they want to engage, and the 2:08:52.120 --> 2:08:53.760 only way that they can do that is for them 2:08:53.800 --> 2:08:57.040 to actually know what the heck is going to happen, Right, So, 2:08:57.080 --> 2:08:59.360 we're going around and being incredibly clear about what the 2:08:59.400 --> 2:09:02.080 plan is and how the finalized version of the plan 2:09:02.200 --> 2:09:05.760 will be, as Jamie sort of opened with, discussed democratically 2:09:05.800 --> 2:09:09.560 and horizontally at these in person outdoor COVID Safe Spokes 2:09:09.560 --> 2:09:13.400 Council meetings on Saturday, November eleventh and Sunday, November twelfth, 2:09:13.480 --> 2:09:16.280 down there in Atlanta, where all these affinity groups from 2:09:16.280 --> 2:09:18.680 around the country, around the state, and around the city 2:09:18.680 --> 2:09:20.600 of Atlanta will sort of elect one of their home 2:09:20.640 --> 2:09:23.760 needs to go to this larger general assembly type thing 2:09:24.040 --> 2:09:27.320 that will then sort of democratically and horizontally determine what 2:09:27.400 --> 2:09:31.360 the actual specifics of Monday's plan will be. Are there 2:09:31.360 --> 2:09:35.440 any sort of community agreements that we want to that 2:09:35.520 --> 2:09:37.360 we want to uplift and highlight so that we can 2:09:37.400 --> 2:09:39.400 all sort of know and be on the same page 2:09:39.400 --> 2:09:41.760 and move in a similar way together. And those could 2:09:41.760 --> 2:09:43.760 be I don't want to speak for with there because 2:09:43.760 --> 2:09:45.800 those will be determined in the Spokes Council. But the 2:09:45.840 --> 2:09:48.360 sort of like there's been questions, I guess lastly, there's 2:09:48.360 --> 2:09:51.320 been questions about well, what does that actually look like 2:09:51.480 --> 2:09:57.880 to maintain a level of non violence whatever that might 2:09:57.920 --> 2:09:58.480 actually mean. 2:09:59.000 --> 2:09:59.600 In a space. 2:09:59.680 --> 2:10:02.520 Right, Like, I'm sure a lot of folks listening, and 2:10:02.560 --> 2:10:06.240 myself included, probably all of us here have witnessed, you know, 2:10:06.360 --> 2:10:08.400 for lack of a better word, peace policing or something 2:10:08.440 --> 2:10:12.920 to that effect. Right, Our wager with this, our goal 2:10:12.960 --> 2:10:16.080 with this, is the activation of affinity groups of crews 2:10:16.120 --> 2:10:18.680 that roll up together who enter into this sort of 2:10:18.760 --> 2:10:22.480 like consensual horizontal decision making space where community agreements are 2:10:22.560 --> 2:10:24.720 explicitly laid out in the days leading up to the action, 2:10:25.280 --> 2:10:28.960 those specific affinity groups can hold each other accountable to 2:10:29.040 --> 2:10:33.040 those norms in whatever way that they want, Right, you 2:10:33.120 --> 2:10:36.360 and your homies holding it down for one another in 2:10:36.800 --> 2:10:41.240 like what we're calling for, right is non violence. Like 2:10:41.280 --> 2:10:43.320 that we can debate, we can have a heavy political 2:10:43.320 --> 2:10:44.160 debate about. 2:10:43.920 --> 2:10:46.560 Like the meaning of violence and the meaning of non violence. 2:10:46.640 --> 2:10:47.200 But like the. 2:10:47.200 --> 2:10:50.120 Language of non violence has a rich history in American 2:10:50.160 --> 2:10:53.000 social justice movements, right, Like that term has meaning to 2:10:53.080 --> 2:10:56.720 a lot of people, And that's actually what's being advocated 2:10:56.720 --> 2:11:00.360 for on this day, but only on that day. Right, Like, 2:11:00.400 --> 2:11:02.200 So what we're talking about is like in this specific 2:11:02.240 --> 2:11:05.880 space that we're going to like create together, this is 2:11:05.960 --> 2:11:08.880 what we're doing. What we're calling for in this moment 2:11:08.920 --> 2:11:11.600 in time, in this specific geography, if people have other 2:11:11.640 --> 2:11:14.800 ways to engage in other spaces or at other times. 2:11:14.960 --> 2:11:17.000 One of the hallmarks of the movement is that by 2:11:17.000 --> 2:11:18.240 all means they should right. 2:11:18.440 --> 2:11:20.760 That's what's kept this movement strong and this is no different. 2:11:21.600 --> 2:11:24.400 Yeah, I'd like to add that there's definitely a precedent 2:11:24.440 --> 2:11:28.920 for this within the movement. There were probably a number 2:11:28.960 --> 2:11:30.640 of events like this, but this was the one that 2:11:30.720 --> 2:11:33.880 I was there for. There was a march a rally 2:11:33.920 --> 2:11:37.720 into March at the MLK Center during the March Week 2:11:37.720 --> 2:11:42.240 of Action, and it was put on by Community Movement Builders, 2:11:42.720 --> 2:11:47.800 which is a great group, all black group organizing in 2:11:48.400 --> 2:11:53.560 specifically black working class communities in Atlanta, led by Kamal Franklin, 2:11:53.720 --> 2:11:57.080 and he put out a statement before this rally in 2:11:57.160 --> 2:12:02.800 March saying, you know, attention camera, this particular event is 2:12:03.040 --> 2:12:06.680 going to be a low risk event. We've decided that 2:12:06.800 --> 2:12:08.800 is what we need today. We've done a lot of 2:12:08.880 --> 2:12:12.520 work in the community getting community members to come out 2:12:12.560 --> 2:12:14.920 to this who maybe haven't been that involved in the past. 2:12:15.200 --> 2:12:19.080 A lot of older working class Black people are going. 2:12:19.040 --> 2:12:19.480 To be there. 2:12:19.840 --> 2:12:23.440 Please don't do anything that's going to attract extra attention 2:12:23.560 --> 2:12:26.560 from the cops. Don't do anything spicy, you know, don't 2:12:26.560 --> 2:12:29.240 break windows. If they tell you to stay on the sidewalk, 2:12:29.320 --> 2:12:32.320 stay on the sidewalk. Not that there's anything wrong with 2:12:32.400 --> 2:12:35.520 those tactics right in general, And he went out of 2:12:35.560 --> 2:12:38.240 his way to say, we do not denounce these tactics 2:12:38.280 --> 2:12:40.520 in general. It is just not the right thing to 2:12:40.600 --> 2:12:45.080 do today at this particular thing. And everybody pretty much listened, 2:12:45.080 --> 2:12:47.840 and everybody bathed themselves, and I thought it was a 2:12:47.880 --> 2:12:51.480 really cool example of you know, the respect, the mutual 2:12:51.520 --> 2:12:54.720 respect across different different corners of this movement. 2:12:55.320 --> 2:12:59.240 Yeah, I've definitely been thinking about that action in relation 2:12:59.400 --> 2:13:01.760 to this, to this upcoming kind of event. 2:13:02.480 --> 2:13:02.680 Yeah. 2:13:02.720 --> 2:13:05.640 I think it was on the Thursday of the fifth 2:13:05.640 --> 2:13:08.040 Week of Action, a few days after there was like 2:13:08.400 --> 2:13:12.160 the mass arrests at at the music festival, because I 2:13:12.200 --> 2:13:14.200 mean there were they were in the in the in 2:13:14.240 --> 2:13:16.560 the lead up to that Community Movement Builders march, there 2:13:16.560 --> 2:13:19.360 were very similar questions around like, yeah, like who's going 2:13:19.400 --> 2:13:22.920 to enforce nonviolence, which really is kind of a silly question, 2:13:23.000 --> 2:13:25.800 and that there is you know, there is precedent absolutely 2:13:25.880 --> 2:13:28.720 of people like peace policing and even turning over people 2:13:28.960 --> 2:13:31.440 to the cops. That that that that that is a precedent. 2:13:31.840 --> 2:13:35.160 But in this case, like you you know, these specific 2:13:35.160 --> 2:13:39.240 people and community movement builders have been pretty down with 2:13:39.400 --> 2:13:43.840 the more militant aspects of this movement for years, and 2:13:43.880 --> 2:13:45.640 you know, in the in the hours before that action, 2:13:45.760 --> 2:13:49.480 you know, people sought and gained more clarification on like no, 2:13:49.560 --> 2:13:51.480 like we're not going to like fuck you over, but like, hey, 2:13:51.720 --> 2:13:54.000 we're trying to like bring our grandmas and our kids 2:13:54.000 --> 2:13:57.640 to this. And not that the police need any excuse 2:13:57.720 --> 2:14:01.120 to you know, attack people, but this is you know it, 2:14:01.520 --> 2:14:02.960 this is the thing that we're planning, This is what 2:14:03.000 --> 2:14:04.680 this is what we're trying to do. You don't have 2:14:04.760 --> 2:14:07.200 to come if you don't want to, you know. And 2:14:07.240 --> 2:14:09.640 it's it is that type of like mutual understanding and 2:14:09.720 --> 2:14:13.480 agreement that actions like this kind of rest on. Because 2:14:13.480 --> 2:14:16.320 I certainly know that there's there's probably a good deal 2:14:16.360 --> 2:14:18.960 of forest defenders who you know, would like to jump 2:14:19.000 --> 2:14:21.880 at the opportunity to do you know, spicy stuff on 2:14:21.920 --> 2:14:24.680 the site, because that's that's a you know, from their perspective, 2:14:24.680 --> 2:14:28.200 that's a very uh, it's a very attractive proposal, which 2:14:28.240 --> 2:14:30.600 you know also as president. In these types of big 2:14:30.880 --> 2:14:34.520 mass mobilizations, There's there's certainly aspects of that that kind 2:14:34.560 --> 2:14:37.800 of intersect with this especially. You know, one concern people 2:14:37.800 --> 2:14:40.760 may have is that this is being pushed as like, hey, 2:14:40.800 --> 2:14:42.320 we're you know, we're going to all these cities, We're 2:14:42.320 --> 2:14:44.720 trying to mobilize all these people, get a thousand people, 2:14:44.760 --> 2:14:48.320 we're all planning this thing together. There's there's a certain 2:14:48.440 --> 2:14:52.360 risk that that type of language could be turned against 2:14:52.360 --> 2:14:55.320 any of the possibly hundreds of people arrested on March 2:14:55.360 --> 2:14:58.760 thirteenth and rule these into and have that role in 2:14:58.800 --> 2:15:02.840 to the reco charges that people are facing in Georgia. Now, 2:15:02.920 --> 2:15:06.280 I also kind of, from my understanding, part of this 2:15:06.360 --> 2:15:10.320 action is to kind of showcase the kind of absurdity 2:15:10.400 --> 2:15:12.960 of these reco charges by by demonstrating this is like 2:15:13.120 --> 2:15:18.000 very typical civil rights kind of you know, social movement organizing. 2:15:19.000 --> 2:15:23.240 But I think those two things I think can actually coexist, 2:15:25.560 --> 2:15:28.480 where yes, this is very typical civil rights organizing, and 2:15:28.520 --> 2:15:31.600 also the state specifically, you know, the state that you 2:15:31.640 --> 2:15:35.800 know in Atlanta have been have have not cared at 2:15:35.840 --> 2:15:39.280 all and is very is very willing to use these 2:15:39.400 --> 2:15:41.720 to use charges like this as a chilling tactic to 2:15:41.760 --> 2:15:46.840 suppress any future like protest or mobilization against cop City. 2:15:47.240 --> 2:15:50.160 So this is like, I think one other dynamic that 2:15:50.200 --> 2:15:52.480 people are certainly thinking about in terms of, you know, 2:15:53.120 --> 2:15:55.120 deciding if they want to participate in something like this. 2:15:56.040 --> 2:16:00.960 Sure, yeah, above all, one of the primary functions repression, right, 2:16:01.120 --> 2:16:04.560 is to to scare us into inaction, right, And in 2:16:04.600 --> 2:16:07.200 the face of that, the worst thing that we can 2:16:07.240 --> 2:16:12.800 do is power away and shrink. And precisely, this type 2:16:12.840 --> 2:16:17.200 of mass mobilization is the ultimate show of solidarity with 2:16:17.240 --> 2:16:21.000 all people who have been swept up into various trumped 2:16:21.040 --> 2:16:27.440 up legal charges related to this movement. And and also 2:16:27.520 --> 2:16:30.840 there's you know, throughout the history of American social movements, 2:16:30.840 --> 2:16:34.320 there's there's there's president after president after precedent of people 2:16:34.400 --> 2:16:37.080 organizing their communities and their friends that they care about 2:16:37.160 --> 2:16:40.920 to travel to a place of you know, of injustice 2:16:41.000 --> 2:16:42.640 and stand in solidarity together. 2:16:42.800 --> 2:16:42.920 Right. 2:16:43.000 --> 2:16:46.800 This is like, this isn't a classic organizing tactic. It's 2:16:46.840 --> 2:16:49.040 nothing particularly new. It's the first time that I've been 2:16:49.040 --> 2:16:51.400 involved in and sort of this scale of organizing and 2:16:51.400 --> 2:16:56.040 this sort of specific flavor I think with any action, 2:16:56.440 --> 2:17:01.000 right just because we call it non violence doesn't mean 2:17:01.080 --> 2:17:04.480 that violence won't occur on the site, specifically maybe at 2:17:04.480 --> 2:17:07.000 the hands of the police or other law enforcement agencies. Right, 2:17:07.640 --> 2:17:09.760 just because we call it non violence doesn't mean that 2:17:09.760 --> 2:17:12.680 there isn't risk involved. Right, with any action that we 2:17:12.760 --> 2:17:17.039 go to, there's risk involved. But you know, our understanding 2:17:17.080 --> 2:17:20.720 is that the risk of inaction far outweighs the risk 2:17:20.760 --> 2:17:22.599 of action in this moment. 2:17:23.200 --> 2:17:25.600 Yeah, because they're going to build that thing if nobody 2:17:25.640 --> 2:17:28.240 does anything. They're trying to build it right now. 2:17:28.879 --> 2:17:31.480 And what's going to happen after that, Well, there's going 2:17:31.520 --> 2:17:33.800 to be hundreds and hundreds more cops on the streets, 2:17:34.440 --> 2:17:40.959 trained in all the latest militarized technological ways to you 2:17:41.520 --> 2:17:45.440 oppress and terrorize civilian populations and put down the next 2:17:45.440 --> 2:17:49.560 big popular uprising, which they've connected it with very explicitly. 2:17:49.680 --> 2:17:51.760 So we should be thinking about it in that way too. 2:17:52.680 --> 2:17:58.000 And you know, we're a generation without victories, right. 2:17:58.480 --> 2:17:59.920 It just sort of feels like we. 2:18:01.280 --> 2:18:03.640 I don't want to minimize the real tangible wins that 2:18:03.680 --> 2:18:06.080 do indeed happen, but largely speaking, it feels like we're 2:18:06.080 --> 2:18:07.480 a generation without victories. 2:18:07.760 --> 2:18:10.280 We need to win social struggles. 2:18:10.320 --> 2:18:13.240 And tens of thousands of people from around the world 2:18:13.280 --> 2:18:16.320 are watching the Defend the Atlanta Forest movement hoping that 2:18:16.360 --> 2:18:19.680 it wins. Right, So I sort of asked myself what 2:18:19.800 --> 2:18:24.120 would have happened if Standing Rock would have won? Right, 2:18:24.200 --> 2:18:26.160 Like Standing Rock raised the bar for what it means 2:18:26.160 --> 2:18:28.720 to resist a pipeline en camp in an unseated indigenous 2:18:28.760 --> 2:18:31.039 territory in this country. It raised the bar for that, right, 2:18:31.320 --> 2:18:33.920 So the next time that invariably rulls around, hopefully we 2:18:33.920 --> 2:18:36.119 can begin from that ploy that point. 2:18:36.520 --> 2:18:38.320 But the pipeline is built. 2:18:38.120 --> 2:18:41.720 Right, oil is flowing through it, oil is leaking through it. 2:18:41.720 --> 2:18:44.800 It didn't win that element of the work, and that's 2:18:44.840 --> 2:18:47.200 why it's important that we have victories. And that's why 2:18:47.560 --> 2:18:49.240 you know, there's so much, so many people pouring so 2:18:49.320 --> 2:18:51.920 much energy into the Defend the Atlanta Forest, Stop cop City, 2:18:51.959 --> 2:18:56.280 No Hollywood Dystopia campaign, because we know it's winnable, but 2:18:56.360 --> 2:18:59.320 we need to ratchet up. And this is precisely the 2:18:59.360 --> 2:19:03.080 sort of level of accessible but also drastically heightened level 2:19:03.120 --> 2:19:05.480 of ratcheting up of our intensity of our collective power 2:19:05.520 --> 2:19:07.280 together that's possible in this moment. 2:19:08.200 --> 2:19:10.800 One thing that Sam you kind of mentioned earlier in 2:19:10.800 --> 2:19:14.680 this conversation is that this plan is really just one 2:19:14.879 --> 2:19:17.800 spear in the many that's trying to put cracks in 2:19:17.840 --> 2:19:21.240 the facade of the cop City project, and this action 2:19:21.320 --> 2:19:24.520 is really just being put in relation to a whole 2:19:24.520 --> 2:19:27.240 bunch of other things that could happen that would eventually 2:19:27.360 --> 2:19:30.160 lead to cop City being stopped. I think that's a 2:19:30.200 --> 2:19:32.960 really important aspect to kind of clarify, because you know, 2:19:33.000 --> 2:19:36.039 there are some detractors who are you know, framing this 2:19:36.160 --> 2:19:39.640 action as being like the only you know, path forward 2:19:39.720 --> 2:19:42.400 that organizers are wanting to do, and I don't know this. 2:19:42.520 --> 2:19:45.920 This movement's been very very based on people taking their 2:19:45.920 --> 2:19:49.520 own spontaneous action and there being not just one strategy, 2:19:49.600 --> 2:19:53.040 not just one plan. There's always a big, a big, 2:19:53.120 --> 2:19:55.040 you know, litany of things that could be going on, 2:19:55.400 --> 2:19:58.720 which all kind of starts to put pressure on this 2:19:58.879 --> 2:20:00.600 on this house of cards, so to speak. 2:20:01.040 --> 2:20:04.039 There's a political crisis, a bruin in Atlanta that has 2:20:04.080 --> 2:20:07.480 been for a very long time. Right, Andre Dickens, for 2:20:07.520 --> 2:20:11.560 some reason, has put all of his chips into this thing, 2:20:11.720 --> 2:20:13.280 and he is like hated for it. 2:20:13.360 --> 2:20:13.520 Right. 2:20:13.920 --> 2:20:17.320 The Atlanta Police Foundation has taken out millions and millions 2:20:17.360 --> 2:20:20.440 and millions of dollars of loans to build this thing. 2:20:21.000 --> 2:20:25.320 If they fail to build Copcity, which they will, then 2:20:25.320 --> 2:20:28.040 they will default on those loans and they might go bankrupt. 2:20:28.520 --> 2:20:32.800 So this entire project not is essentially a house of cards, 2:20:33.240 --> 2:20:35.320 and it doesn't really feel that way because it's being 2:20:35.360 --> 2:20:39.240 buttressed on all sides by corporations, by crony politicians, by 2:20:40.200 --> 2:20:43.080 big men with big guns, you know. But they're doing 2:20:43.120 --> 2:20:46.360 so precisely because it's fragile, precisely because it's a house 2:20:46.400 --> 2:20:49.920 of cards, and there's zero buy in from the community 2:20:50.160 --> 2:20:53.000 and from people and standing in solidarity around the world 2:20:53.400 --> 2:20:55.320 for this project. 2:20:55.760 --> 2:20:58.680 What could be a fatal death blow to this movement 2:20:58.879 --> 2:21:02.959 is a mass quantitative uptick in the number of people 2:21:03.000 --> 2:21:07.600 taking action in the forest, and that would be a 2:21:07.640 --> 2:21:10.640 new and novel blow to this thing that it hasn't 2:21:10.680 --> 2:21:11.280 really seen. 2:21:12.160 --> 2:21:16.200 There really is a battle happening over the like who 2:21:16.240 --> 2:21:19.640 gets to use this language of social justice and who 2:21:19.640 --> 2:21:22.039 gets to draw on the legacy of the civil rights movement? 2:21:22.440 --> 2:21:25.920 Right and there are two really competing narratives right now. 2:21:26.879 --> 2:21:30.720 You have the stop Cop City movement, which has a 2:21:30.720 --> 2:21:34.360 pretty complete analysis, i would say, of the ways that 2:21:35.400 --> 2:21:41.320 racial oppression and class exploitation power, American capitalism, right, and 2:21:41.360 --> 2:21:45.400 the ways that copcity feed into and enable those. 2:21:45.160 --> 2:21:47.640 Things with the help of the bourgeois state. 2:21:48.160 --> 2:21:51.680 And then you have the cynical take from the City 2:21:51.720 --> 2:21:54.040 of Atlanta and from the political class. 2:21:54.760 --> 2:21:55.520 I'm looking at a. 2:21:55.480 --> 2:21:59.400 Post that just I think just was posted by the 2:21:59.400 --> 2:22:03.400 City of to Twitter account. It says Mayor Andre for 2:22:03.480 --> 2:22:07.520 Atlanta welcomed guests to the March on Washington's sixtieth Dream 2:22:07.600 --> 2:22:11.520 Youth panel at North Atlanta High School. Mayor Dickens highlighted 2:22:11.520 --> 2:22:15.280 the significance of mlk's nonviolence movement and shared his hopes 2:22:15.320 --> 2:22:18.640 that our youth will work together to fulfill mlk's dream 2:22:19.120 --> 2:22:25.520 hashtag m W sixty. So there we have a cynical 2:22:26.000 --> 2:22:29.240 attempt to harness the legacy of the civil rights movement, right, 2:22:29.280 --> 2:22:33.200 because what the fuck is he even talking about? Like, 2:22:33.879 --> 2:22:37.240 how are youths going to work together to fulfill Mlk's 2:22:37.320 --> 2:22:43.520 dream of you know, freedom equality? Uh, not just in 2:22:43.640 --> 2:22:47.439 terms of who gets to buy things at a particular store, 2:22:47.480 --> 2:22:53.920 but like true economic power and equality for everyone, especially 2:22:54.000 --> 2:22:58.400 black proletarians who have served a very specific and important 2:22:58.480 --> 2:23:00.720 role in American capitalism. 2:23:00.959 --> 2:23:05.440 Right, what is he talking about? If not, like, we're 2:23:05.480 --> 2:23:07.199 doing exactly what MLKA. 2:23:07.120 --> 2:23:07.480 Used to do. 2:23:07.520 --> 2:23:09.880 This is a non violent act of civil disobedience. So 2:23:09.920 --> 2:23:11.800 what could he What else could he mean by that? 2:23:12.520 --> 2:23:15.760 Does he mean voting for Democrats? Does he mean, you know, 2:23:15.879 --> 2:23:20.720 working for NGOs? Does he mean joining this political class? 2:23:20.800 --> 2:23:25.480 Because I think, like it actually makes me feel better 2:23:25.560 --> 2:23:27.360 that the people of Atlanta seem to know that this 2:23:27.400 --> 2:23:30.720 is bullshit. Despite all of the propaganda that's been coming 2:23:30.760 --> 2:23:33.600 out from from the state and from the you know, 2:23:33.920 --> 2:23:37.600 the bourgeois media and the mainstream press that just kind 2:23:37.600 --> 2:23:41.520 of uncritically reports the things that the mayor says, the 2:23:41.520 --> 2:23:45.320 things that the cops say. The propaganda isn't working. One 2:23:45.400 --> 2:23:48.400 hundred and twenty thousand people signed this petition in a 2:23:48.400 --> 2:23:51.400 city of five hundred thousand. I mean, I think they 2:23:51.720 --> 2:23:56.760 can clearly see who's really carrying on this project of 2:23:56.800 --> 2:23:58.279 social justice and equality. 2:23:59.000 --> 2:24:01.959 Great. I always I always love checking up on the 2:24:01.959 --> 2:24:04.800 City of Atlanta Twitter account because at least once a 2:24:04.879 --> 2:24:12.440 day they post some absolutely absurd thing. I guess because 2:24:12.840 --> 2:24:15.200 the last thing I think it's probably worth mentioning is 2:24:15.200 --> 2:24:17.480 that like a big part of this plan is trying 2:24:17.480 --> 2:24:20.640 to catalyze affinity groups to come to the city, you 2:24:20.680 --> 2:24:23.680 know with you know, specifically with the idea of them 2:24:23.800 --> 2:24:27.879 participating in this in this action on November thirteenth, But 2:24:28.000 --> 2:24:32.320 you know, nothing is stopping affinity groups from pursuing other 2:24:32.400 --> 2:24:35.120 forms of direct action during the for the four or 2:24:35.120 --> 2:24:37.880 so days they might be in town. I think it's 2:24:37.920 --> 2:24:40.520 you know, a big, a large part of this movement's 2:24:40.520 --> 2:24:43.640 been very based on like self determination and radical autonomy, 2:24:43.959 --> 2:24:48.440 whether that's that includes your ability to participate in you know, 2:24:48.600 --> 2:24:53.120 big big collective max big collective mass actions, or just 2:24:53.160 --> 2:24:56.120 having fun with your friends around the city, like what 2:24:56.200 --> 2:24:58.199 happened near the end of the last week of action 2:24:58.400 --> 2:25:03.840 where eight motorcycles mysteriously vanished from the material plane. 2:25:04.440 --> 2:25:05.840 So that. 2:25:07.680 --> 2:25:10.560 We're about a month away from this. If people are 2:25:10.600 --> 2:25:13.080 interested in want to kind of learn more information about 2:25:13.160 --> 2:25:19.160 this proposal, where can people find, as said information. 2:25:19.560 --> 2:25:20.440 Yeah, thanks for that. 2:25:21.000 --> 2:25:23.800 We're currently in the middle of our Wei Lanni worldwide 2:25:23.800 --> 2:25:27.080 Math Action speaking tour eighty cities from from Portland, Maine 2:25:27.160 --> 2:25:31.040 to Portland, Oregon, Vancouver to Tijuana and everywhere in between. 2:25:31.800 --> 2:25:34.560 Jamie and I will also be co hosting a Zoom 2:25:34.600 --> 2:25:39.039 tour stop on Saturday, October fourteenth, at three pm Eastern time. 2:25:39.600 --> 2:25:43.800 Check out blochcopcity dot org for information on those tour stops, 2:25:43.840 --> 2:25:46.920 including the ones on Zoom. There's also going to be 2:25:46.959 --> 2:25:49.400 a schedule for the weekends festivities that is coming up 2:25:49.440 --> 2:25:55.240 quite soon, which could include several cultural events, welcoming ceremonies too, 2:25:55.480 --> 2:25:58.560 in person spokes concil meetings, general direct action, non violent 2:25:58.600 --> 2:26:02.160 direct action trainings, as well as other ways to spend 2:26:02.240 --> 2:26:04.800 time quality time together down in the forest leading up 2:26:04.840 --> 2:26:08.000 to the mass action on the morning of Monday, November thirteenth. 2:26:08.560 --> 2:26:11.240 If people have resources. 2:26:10.680 --> 2:26:14.120 They would like to donate to the movement, whether that 2:26:14.200 --> 2:26:17.480 be in the form of in person housing. Has helped 2:26:17.480 --> 2:26:21.720 with transportation, help with collective cooking processes, help with social 2:26:21.800 --> 2:26:25.320 media outreach, journalistic outreach, help with just thinking through this 2:26:25.400 --> 2:26:28.840 thing right and how we can make it as empowering 2:26:28.840 --> 2:26:33.680 and successful as possible and help sort of allow this 2:26:33.879 --> 2:26:36.959 to once again raise the bar for what it means 2:26:37.280 --> 2:26:41.840 to fight against deforestation, to fight against over policing in 2:26:41.879 --> 2:26:44.520 black and brown communities around the country, to fight against 2:26:44.520 --> 2:26:47.720 economic injustice and the attack and dignified forms of life, 2:26:47.959 --> 2:26:51.640 cross social movements and regions. 2:26:52.320 --> 2:26:53.760 You can contact us. 2:26:53.760 --> 2:26:56.800 Via our contact form on the web page, which you 2:26:56.840 --> 2:26:59.480 can find on black opsidt org, slash contact and there's 2:26:59.480 --> 2:27:02.280 a contact to fill out. There's also a Gmail block 2:27:02.320 --> 2:27:06.480 coopcityatgmail dot com. So if any of those things are 2:27:06.600 --> 2:27:07.920 if you want to figure out how to plug in, 2:27:07.959 --> 2:27:10.680 feel free to direct your correspondence to one of those channels. 2:27:10.920 --> 2:27:12.720 Yeah, blockcopcity dot org. 2:27:13.400 --> 2:27:16.840 You can watch our hype video, you can read our 2:27:16.920 --> 2:27:21.400 invitation to action. You can well, the tour might be 2:27:21.440 --> 2:27:23.280 mostly over by then, but you can look at where 2:27:23.280 --> 2:27:24.000 the tour has been. 2:27:24.720 --> 2:27:25.400 Lots of good. 2:27:25.280 --> 2:27:29.520 Information on that website, and there's also lots of ways 2:27:29.520 --> 2:27:32.280 to get in touch. So yeah, hope to see you 2:27:32.320 --> 2:27:33.320 all in November. 2:27:34.320 --> 2:27:37.800 You're cordially invited to activate an affinity group. Come down 2:27:37.879 --> 2:27:42.920 to November between Friday Veterans Day November tenth to Monday 2:27:42.920 --> 2:27:46.920 November thirteenth, and then also it's important to note that 2:27:47.080 --> 2:27:49.560 probably on the fourteenth and the fifteenth there'll be collective 2:27:49.640 --> 2:27:52.120 days of healing and anti repression work that will be 2:27:52.120 --> 2:27:54.120 happening citywide as well. 2:27:54.280 --> 2:27:56.800 That does it for us today on the show. Once again, 2:27:56.840 --> 2:27:59.160 thanks to Sam and Jamie for talking with me about 2:27:59.160 --> 2:28:02.000 this action. Hopefully you have a little bit more information 2:28:02.120 --> 2:28:04.600 about this than you had going into it. You can 2:28:04.640 --> 2:28:08.520 certainly find more information about this action and a variety 2:28:08.560 --> 2:28:11.840 of other opinions on the scenes. Do Noblog's website and 2:28:11.959 --> 2:28:15.240 other kind of anarchistic news websites if you want to 2:28:15.280 --> 2:28:18.520 go seeking out those other opinions. See you on the 2:28:18.560 --> 2:28:34.480 other side. 2:28:35.280 --> 2:28:40.080 Hello everybody, and welcome to it could happen here. My 2:28:40.200 --> 2:28:45.200 name is Sharene, and a lot has happened recently and 2:28:45.320 --> 2:28:48.760 we definitely need to talk about it. There's a lot 2:28:48.920 --> 2:28:53.960 to cover and things are changing every day. I can't 2:28:54.000 --> 2:28:57.040 possibly talk about everything in a thirty minute podcast episode, 2:28:57.760 --> 2:29:00.400 but just for context, I'm recording the bulk of this 2:29:00.760 --> 2:29:05.160 on Wednesday, October eleventh. There are many different things that 2:29:05.200 --> 2:29:07.240 we should get into, and we'll probably get into them 2:29:07.280 --> 2:29:10.720 in other episodes, so look forward to those. But today 2:29:11.120 --> 2:29:14.480 I want to talk about why exactly this attack from 2:29:14.560 --> 2:29:19.840 Hamas is so different and so unprecedented for many reasons, 2:29:20.160 --> 2:29:23.920 and why the response by Israel is also extremely unprecedented. 2:29:25.160 --> 2:29:27.920 There has been a lot of violence, a lot of death, 2:29:28.680 --> 2:29:31.280 and I thought a better way to start to learn 2:29:31.320 --> 2:29:35.240 about this might be with something really specific, like learning 2:29:35.320 --> 2:29:38.680 about the border fence that has been cajing in Gaza 2:29:38.760 --> 2:29:42.800 for years, why Israel thought it was so impermeable, and 2:29:42.879 --> 2:29:46.240 how they were wrong. So let's begin the video and 2:29:46.320 --> 2:29:50.360 images going around on social media of a bulldozer breaking 2:29:50.400 --> 2:29:53.359 through a portion of the fence that has long enclosed 2:29:53.360 --> 2:29:58.680 the Gaza stript for years, this cage that surrounds that territory, 2:29:59.560 --> 2:30:02.600 the image of a bulldozer there's running straight through it 2:30:02.760 --> 2:30:06.320 and Palestinians running to the other side. I don't think 2:30:06.360 --> 2:30:11.039 you can find anything better to represent the long history 2:30:11.240 --> 2:30:15.920 of Israeli Palestinian tensions, the decades of brutal Israeli occupation, 2:30:16.840 --> 2:30:20.320 the recurrent Hamas bombings and rocket strikes, and the political 2:30:20.640 --> 2:30:25.320 deterioration on both sides than this image. No one thought 2:30:25.400 --> 2:30:29.680 this was going to happen. Professor Clive Jones, director of 2:30:29.760 --> 2:30:33.760 Institute for Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies at Durham University, said, 2:30:34.320 --> 2:30:37.160 this is the first time since nineteen forty eight that 2:30:37.240 --> 2:30:41.640 any Palestinian militant movement has taken territory in Israel proper 2:30:42.240 --> 2:30:46.880 that symbolic victory and defeat for Israel will resonate across 2:30:46.920 --> 2:30:51.320 the region. So on the morning of October seventh, there 2:30:51.440 --> 2:30:55.080 was a surprise attack from Hamas against Israel. What happened 2:30:55.200 --> 2:30:58.560 was a colossal failure of Israeli intelligence as well as 2:30:58.600 --> 2:31:02.119 the Israeli government. I'll go into this in more detail 2:31:02.120 --> 2:31:05.320 in a bit, but in this surprise attack, resistance fighters 2:31:05.320 --> 2:31:08.520 were entering an up to twenty nine different locations outside 2:31:08.560 --> 2:31:13.320 the Gaza Strip. Most significantly, fighters tore through the border fence, 2:31:13.400 --> 2:31:16.520 which has also been called the Iron Wall. They knocked 2:31:16.520 --> 2:31:19.720 it aside with bulldozers, drove right through it with jeeps 2:31:19.760 --> 2:31:23.480 and motorcycles. Other Hamas fighters sailed right over it with 2:31:23.600 --> 2:31:26.720 fan powered gliders, and others hopped on boats to try 2:31:26.720 --> 2:31:30.400 to reach the other side by sea. A crucial component 2:31:30.440 --> 2:31:33.200 of Israel's defense from an attack like this, or at 2:31:33.240 --> 2:31:37.320 least it was supposed to be, was this sophisticated border fence. 2:31:38.360 --> 2:31:42.840 I want to talk about how exactly Israel came to 2:31:42.920 --> 2:31:45.959 build this fence, because throughout most of its history, the 2:31:46.000 --> 2:31:49.240 IDF did not want much to do with defensive measures. 2:31:49.840 --> 2:31:55.119 Its traditional security concept rested on three complimentary pillars, the terrents, 2:31:55.360 --> 2:32:00.600 early warning, and decisive battlefield victory. Guided by the concept, 2:32:00.840 --> 2:32:05.080 the IDF built offensive power designed to deter enemies from 2:32:05.120 --> 2:32:08.680 attacking and intelligence raised in order to detect when that 2:32:08.720 --> 2:32:11.800 deterns had eroded. If it was unable to convince the 2:32:11.840 --> 2:32:14.960 other side that it was better off avoiding conflict, the 2:32:14.959 --> 2:32:18.600 IDF would bring the full might of its offensive capabilities 2:32:18.800 --> 2:32:22.199 in search of a rapid and decisive quote unquote victory, 2:32:23.200 --> 2:32:25.120 which just means they would end up killing a lot 2:32:25.160 --> 2:32:28.600 of people. They would fly in cities and masker hundreds 2:32:28.640 --> 2:32:31.520 of people in order to essentially make the other side 2:32:31.640 --> 2:32:34.840 lose all hope and not fight back, and if they did, 2:32:35.280 --> 2:32:38.480 to tell them never to fight back again. This would, 2:32:38.720 --> 2:32:43.520 according to this concept, initially strengthen the terrens. The idea 2:32:43.560 --> 2:32:47.240 of defense for Israel began sneaking into the conversation in 2:32:47.280 --> 2:32:51.160 the nineteen sixties, as Israel considered purchasing the Hawk surface 2:32:51.240 --> 2:32:54.560 to air missile system from the US. This idea had 2:32:54.600 --> 2:32:58.280 some opposition at the highest level of the IDF. Air 2:32:58.360 --> 2:33:02.119 Force Commander Ezer Wiseman opposed the idea on the grounds 2:33:02.120 --> 2:33:05.240 that it would give Israel's political chiefs an excuse to 2:33:05.280 --> 2:33:10.080 avoid the bold offensive operations, in this case, surprise airstrikes 2:33:10.080 --> 2:33:13.320 that would take out entire buildings, which he viewed as 2:33:13.360 --> 2:33:17.280 necessary to win a war in the end, though five 2:33:17.400 --> 2:33:21.160 Hawk missile batteries were purchased just before the nineteen sixty 2:33:21.200 --> 2:33:25.600 seven Six Day War for thirty million dollars. The first 2:33:25.720 --> 2:33:29.360 makings of the present day security fence began in nineteen 2:33:29.440 --> 2:33:32.760 ninety four, after the signing of the Interim Agreement on 2:33:32.800 --> 2:33:36.040 the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, when Israel constructed 2:33:36.080 --> 2:33:40.039 a forty mile fence along its boundary with Eastern Palestine. 2:33:40.440 --> 2:33:43.360 The construction was completed in nineteen ninety six, though it 2:33:43.400 --> 2:33:48.000 didn't necessarily represent a hard border. In two thousand and five, 2:33:48.200 --> 2:33:51.840 under former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel carried out a 2:33:51.879 --> 2:33:55.880 disengagement from Gaza, which included, among other things, pulling out 2:33:55.879 --> 2:33:59.800 its troops. This meant that the one kilometer buffer zone 2:33:59.800 --> 2:34:02.960 that the Israeli Defence forces maintained after the first fence 2:34:03.040 --> 2:34:05.760 was torn down by Gozens in two thousand was no 2:34:05.840 --> 2:34:09.640 longer a possibility. A plan for an alternate forty five 2:34:09.720 --> 2:34:12.480 fence a few dozen meters east of the original fence, 2:34:12.959 --> 2:34:17.160 entirely on Israeli land, was then developed. The present day 2:34:17.280 --> 2:34:21.039 forty mile long barricade has several sections. A twenty foot 2:34:21.120 --> 2:34:24.080 high smart fence, which is the over the ground fence 2:34:25.000 --> 2:34:28.520 with a maritime section manned by sensors to detect encouragements 2:34:28.560 --> 2:34:32.199 from the water, and an underground wall of classified depth 2:34:32.360 --> 2:34:37.320 and thickness with sensors to detect any digging. The overground barrier, 2:34:37.360 --> 2:34:39.720 which makes up eighty one percent of the fence, is 2:34:39.760 --> 2:34:43.600 supported by a complex network of cameras, radar systems, as 2:34:43.600 --> 2:34:46.840 well as command and control rooms. One hundred and forty 2:34:46.920 --> 2:34:50.120 thousand tons of iron and steel were used in the 2:34:50.160 --> 2:34:53.480 construction of the underground wall, which took three and a 2:34:53.520 --> 2:34:57.039 half years to complete. The total cost of the project 2:34:57.240 --> 2:35:02.040 is estimated at one point eleven billion dollar. The project 2:35:02.080 --> 2:35:05.160 of the quote unquote smart fence was publicly announced in 2:35:05.200 --> 2:35:08.600 twenty sixteen, and in twenty twenty one, Israel announced the 2:35:08.640 --> 2:35:13.240 completion of the smart fence, which included an underground concrete barrier. 2:35:14.000 --> 2:35:16.800 This addition, which I feel like is important to mention, 2:35:17.400 --> 2:35:21.640 was because Hamas used underground tunnels to blind side Israeli forces. 2:35:21.640 --> 2:35:25.240 In twenty fourteen, access near the fence on the Gaza 2:35:25.320 --> 2:35:28.280 side was limited to farmers who were on foot. On 2:35:28.320 --> 2:35:31.960 the Israeli side, observation towers and sand dunes were put 2:35:31.959 --> 2:35:36.360 in place to monitor threats and slow intruders. With the 2:35:36.400 --> 2:35:39.440 announcement of its completion in twenty twenty one, the then 2:35:39.520 --> 2:35:42.840 Defence Minister Benny Gantz said, the barrier placed a quote 2:35:42.879 --> 2:35:48.360 iron wall between Hamas and southern Israel. But on October seventh, 2:35:48.400 --> 2:35:52.680 as we saw, the wall failed massively and a surprise 2:35:52.879 --> 2:35:56.720 series of coordinated efforts enabled Tamas to get past the wall. 2:35:57.360 --> 2:36:00.480 The fence was breached at twenty nine points, according to 2:36:00.560 --> 2:36:04.520 the IDF. There were also Israeli guard towers positioned at 2:36:04.600 --> 2:36:07.720 every five hundred feet along the perimeter of the wall 2:36:07.800 --> 2:36:11.199 at some certain points, and the Hamas fighters there appeared 2:36:11.280 --> 2:36:15.680 to encounter very little resistance. It soon became apparent that 2:36:15.720 --> 2:36:19.560 the border was minimally staffed, with much of Israel's military 2:36:19.720 --> 2:36:22.520 diverted to focus on the unrest in the West Bank. 2:36:23.120 --> 2:36:26.680 Matthew Levitt is the director of the counter Terrorism Program 2:36:26.760 --> 2:36:30.200 at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. He said 2:36:30.760 --> 2:36:33.280 the most compelling parts of the system were the ones 2:36:33.320 --> 2:36:37.440 that provided indicators and warnings. But you don't see in 2:36:37.520 --> 2:36:40.960 advance that someone is masked at the fence. It's still 2:36:41.040 --> 2:36:44.840 just a fence, a big fence, but just defence. Still, 2:36:44.879 --> 2:36:47.880 he says, the idea of a bulldozer getting that close 2:36:47.920 --> 2:36:51.879 to the fence at all just boggles the mind. The 2:36:51.959 --> 2:36:55.920 attack has been documented as the following. To put it 2:36:56.040 --> 2:37:01.400 very simply, using commercial drones, Hamas bombed as Raeligh observation towers, 2:37:01.440 --> 2:37:06.600 communications infrastructure, and weapons systems along the border. Israel said 2:37:06.640 --> 2:37:10.119 Hamas fired more than three thousand rockets into its territory, 2:37:10.560 --> 2:37:13.560 with some reaching as far as Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. 2:37:14.080 --> 2:37:17.720 Militants also use explosives to blow up sections of the barrier, 2:37:18.360 --> 2:37:21.760 and men and motorbikes drove through the gaps, and then 2:37:21.800 --> 2:37:25.120 the bulldozers did the rest and this allowed for enough 2:37:25.160 --> 2:37:29.199 space for their larger vehicles to drive through. Experts said 2:37:29.280 --> 2:37:32.000 an attack of this magnitude with all of these elements 2:37:32.120 --> 2:37:36.599 would have required weeks at least of preparation and subterfuge. 2:37:37.400 --> 2:37:41.080 But maybe you're asking, well, why now, why did Hamas 2:37:41.280 --> 2:37:45.400 now decide to launch an attack of this magnitude. There 2:37:45.400 --> 2:37:48.520 are some clues in the name that Hamas gave the attack. 2:37:48.840 --> 2:37:52.680 They named it Operation of Alxa Flood. Just days before 2:37:52.720 --> 2:37:56.000 the attack, hundreds of Israeli settlers, with the protection of 2:37:56.040 --> 2:37:59.960 the Israeli forces stormed Atlexa Mosque and occupied Easter Russ. 2:38:00.920 --> 2:38:04.160 I've talked about this before, but this compound is a 2:38:04.280 --> 2:38:08.920 very important and contested religious site, and it's often very 2:38:08.959 --> 2:38:12.920 often a target by Israeli settlers and the IDF. And 2:38:13.000 --> 2:38:16.160 Hamas said it launched its attack in response to the 2:38:16.160 --> 2:38:22.760 desecration of Alexa. Mohammad'ef, the Rassam Brigades commander said, we 2:38:22.920 --> 2:38:25.560 have decided that the time has come to draw the 2:38:25.600 --> 2:38:28.960 line for the enemy to understand their time is up 2:38:29.240 --> 2:38:33.800 and they can't keep going without consequences. But again, experts 2:38:33.800 --> 2:38:36.880 said this plan would have taken weeks to plan. I'm 2:38:36.920 --> 2:38:40.960 sure the attacks on Aleximosque played a role in the attack, 2:38:41.320 --> 2:38:43.640 but it was probably being worked on for quite some 2:38:43.760 --> 2:38:47.320 time before that. And Hamas also said the attack was 2:38:47.360 --> 2:38:51.520 a response to decades of Israeli violence and occupation. The 2:38:51.600 --> 2:38:55.080 daily impact of the occupation on the lives of Palestinians 2:38:55.080 --> 2:38:58.480 in Gaza and other occupied territories at the West Bank 2:38:58.959 --> 2:39:02.200 is a huge part of this story. Let's take our 2:39:02.240 --> 2:39:07.240 first break before I forget no clever segue here. Just 2:39:07.320 --> 2:39:12.680 listen to these ads and we're back. Analysts and experts 2:39:12.720 --> 2:39:16.000 have been warning for months that the reality on the 2:39:16.000 --> 2:39:18.840 ground in Palestine and Israel was leading up to this. 2:39:19.720 --> 2:39:24.279 Nor Ude, a political analyst and former Palestinian Authority spokeswoman, 2:39:24.480 --> 2:39:29.640 said the record number of Palestinians killed, dispossessed, injured and 2:39:29.720 --> 2:39:33.760 traumatized by Israeli forces and settlers across the occupied West Bank, 2:39:34.240 --> 2:39:38.560 the continued siege on Gaza, the relentless attacks on Elxamosque, 2:39:38.879 --> 2:39:42.280 they were all pushing the situation towards this moment. I 2:39:42.320 --> 2:39:45.400 don't think anybody imagined the particulars of this moment, but 2:39:45.520 --> 2:39:47.680 I think everybody with a sense of what was going 2:39:47.720 --> 2:39:51.920 on knew that this quote unquote calm was deceiving and 2:39:52.000 --> 2:39:55.560 that something was going to happen, something big. And it 2:39:55.680 --> 2:39:59.200 did happen. The wall came down. But for the two 2:39:59.280 --> 2:40:02.560 point three milli million Palestinians who have been virtually trapped 2:40:02.600 --> 2:40:05.280 for fifteen years, as well as the Palestinians on the 2:40:05.320 --> 2:40:09.240 West Bank who have been constantly surveilled, having their movement restricted, 2:40:09.480 --> 2:40:14.080 and have experienced growing military violence, bulldozing through this fence 2:40:14.320 --> 2:40:19.200 means something else. While the Israeli response was feded by 2:40:19.240 --> 2:40:22.160 the failure of this system, making the future of all 2:40:22.200 --> 2:40:25.800 Palestinians even more precarious. The impact of Saturday's attack for 2:40:25.879 --> 2:40:31.920 Palestinians is hugely significant psychologically and symbolically. It shatters the 2:40:31.959 --> 2:40:36.280 idea of Israel's military superiority. It's a physical symbol of 2:40:36.360 --> 2:40:38.880 breaking out of the open air prison they've been held 2:40:38.959 --> 2:40:41.840 captive in, letting them step onto the land that they've 2:40:41.840 --> 2:40:44.920 been forced out of, some of them for their entire lives. 2:40:45.640 --> 2:40:48.240 Most of the Palestinians in Gaza are children, and they 2:40:48.280 --> 2:40:51.720 have only ever known life within the confines of that fence. 2:40:52.240 --> 2:40:54.920 So bulldozing a hole right through this fence to the 2:40:54.959 --> 2:41:00.040 other side will obviously have ripples in more ways than one. 2:41:00.120 --> 2:41:02.199 I want to mention something here that I've been thinking 2:41:02.200 --> 2:41:05.400 about is that Gaza is often referred to as the 2:41:05.440 --> 2:41:10.040 world's biggest open air prison, which is true, but I 2:41:10.080 --> 2:41:14.320 was thinking about it, and prison implies that they did 2:41:14.360 --> 2:41:18.000 a crime. They did not do a crime. The Palestinians 2:41:18.120 --> 2:41:21.800 are innocent. They're stuck in a cage against their will, 2:41:22.480 --> 2:41:24.960 and they have no way out. I think a better 2:41:25.000 --> 2:41:29.680 way to describe Gaza might be an open air concentration camp, 2:41:29.920 --> 2:41:33.560 the biggest open air concentration camp period. It's just something 2:41:33.560 --> 2:41:35.600 I've been thinking about because I feel like open air 2:41:35.680 --> 2:41:39.760 prison implies they're all criminals and they're not. So just 2:41:39.840 --> 2:41:43.480 something to think about when it comes to semantics and 2:41:43.520 --> 2:41:47.120 the power of words, I suppose, even if it's subconscious. 2:41:48.480 --> 2:41:51.640 Gaza has been under a land, sea and air blockade 2:41:51.680 --> 2:41:54.640 since two thousand and seven. More than two point three 2:41:54.760 --> 2:41:58.560 million Palestinians live there, all crammed in and they cannot 2:41:58.680 --> 2:42:03.800 leave without Israeli permission, which very few people get. Hamas 2:42:03.920 --> 2:42:06.400 is a political and armed group that took control of 2:42:06.440 --> 2:42:09.720 two thousand and six, and there hasn't been an election since. 2:42:10.760 --> 2:42:14.080 It's part of a regional alliance which also includes Iran 2:42:14.200 --> 2:42:17.640 and the armed group has Bela and Lebanon. Hamas has 2:42:17.640 --> 2:42:21.160 been designated a terrorist organization by Israel, the US, and 2:42:21.200 --> 2:42:24.560 the EU, among many others. We'll be doing a history 2:42:24.879 --> 2:42:28.360 more in depth about Hamas soon, but it's important to 2:42:28.440 --> 2:42:32.119 note that Israel basically helped create it. More details will 2:42:32.120 --> 2:42:35.960 be in that episode, obviously, but just to summarize very briefly, 2:42:36.360 --> 2:42:40.640 Israel bolstered Hamas's creation and funded its expansion because it 2:42:40.680 --> 2:42:44.879 wanted to divide the Palestinians amongst themselves and they viewed 2:42:44.920 --> 2:42:49.640 the leftist PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which was the 2:42:49.680 --> 2:42:53.120 governing party at the time, as a threat, and so 2:42:53.200 --> 2:42:58.040 they encouraged Haamas to flourish and thrive, which leads us 2:42:58.080 --> 2:43:02.320 to now again be separate episode. There is so much 2:43:02.360 --> 2:43:05.840 to cover and I can do it all today. Although 2:43:05.840 --> 2:43:10.640 the PLO used to be the dominant party decades ago, 2:43:10.760 --> 2:43:14.080 in recent years, the PLO and the secular FATA party 2:43:14.160 --> 2:43:17.720 which the PLO is centered around, is often criticized for 2:43:17.800 --> 2:43:22.040 being ineffective, and so many Palestinians see Hamas as the 2:43:22.080 --> 2:43:24.920 most active group when it comes to resistance against the 2:43:25.040 --> 2:43:30.080 violent Israeli occupation. Palestinians have lived in violent occupation for 2:43:30.120 --> 2:43:33.920 seventy six years and the world has largely done nothing. 2:43:34.840 --> 2:43:39.320 Palestinians have no outside support whatsoever, and no one is 2:43:39.360 --> 2:43:43.200 coming to their aid or rescue. They unfortunately only have 2:43:43.480 --> 2:43:47.680 this militant group because of this, and also just a 2:43:47.720 --> 2:43:52.480 reminder that Palestine has actually tried everything and that violence 2:43:52.600 --> 2:43:57.400 is not their first resort. Many Palestinians don't even support Hamas. 2:43:58.520 --> 2:44:03.240 Let's not forget about BDS, which is a Palestinian nonviolent 2:44:03.320 --> 2:44:07.160 movement which calls for boycott, divestment and sanctions for Israel. 2:44:08.040 --> 2:44:12.520 BDS is now deemed illegal. In twenty twenty one, thirty 2:44:12.520 --> 2:44:17.720 five states passed anti BDS laws, so even boycotting Israeli 2:44:17.760 --> 2:44:22.680 products is suddenly illegal. So that was BDS. People are 2:44:22.680 --> 2:44:25.400 obviously still engaged in BDS, and I encourage everyone to 2:44:25.440 --> 2:44:29.440 read more about it, because divestment and sanctions work. It 2:44:29.480 --> 2:44:33.320 worked in South Africa, but here we are. And then 2:44:33.480 --> 2:44:37.440 in twenty eighteen, Palestinians in Gaza mounted the Great March 2:44:37.520 --> 2:44:41.840 of Return to show the world their plight. Day after 2:44:41.959 --> 2:44:47.360 day they walked unarmed to Israeli's military fences around Gaza. 2:44:47.840 --> 2:44:52.480 How did Israel respond to this non violent protest. They 2:44:52.560 --> 2:44:57.119 shot eight thousand Palestinians with live ammunition, killed two hundred 2:44:57.160 --> 2:45:00.959 and twenty people and wounded thirty six. One thousand, one 2:45:01.040 --> 2:45:06.080 hundred and forty three. Palestinians are getting killed regardless of 2:45:06.120 --> 2:45:10.320 the existence of Hamas, because Israel bombing Gaza isn't actually 2:45:10.360 --> 2:45:15.680 about Hamas but occupation and ethnic cleansing. Israel and Hamas 2:45:15.720 --> 2:45:19.320 have fought many on and off quote unquote wars. I say, 2:45:19.400 --> 2:45:22.720 quote unquote because it's not a war if only one 2:45:22.760 --> 2:45:25.560 side has an army, and I personally really hate when 2:45:25.560 --> 2:45:28.600 it's referred to as a war because it's falsely portraying 2:45:28.680 --> 2:45:31.840 an occupation as an equal fight when there's actually an 2:45:31.840 --> 2:45:36.320 oppressor and an oppressed. But regardless, the last big war 2:45:36.760 --> 2:45:39.120 Israel had had with Hamas was in twenty twenty one. 2:45:39.840 --> 2:45:42.520 In the past, it's usually been an exchange of fire 2:45:42.600 --> 2:45:46.840 across the Gaza border. Hamas launches rockets into Israel, Israel 2:45:46.879 --> 2:45:50.480 drops more bombs on Gaza. Hamas launches rockets into Israel, 2:45:50.760 --> 2:45:54.440 Israel drops more bombs on Gaza, and so on. Usually 2:45:54.480 --> 2:45:57.600 this results in a huge civilian death toll in Gaza, 2:45:58.040 --> 2:46:02.040 with Israel bombing entire residential buildings and killing entire families 2:46:02.160 --> 2:46:05.879 and hundreds of children. And just a reminder here that 2:46:06.000 --> 2:46:10.160 Gaza does not have an iron dome to defend itself. 2:46:10.600 --> 2:46:14.360 When Israel bombs Gaza, it does so knowing it is 2:46:14.520 --> 2:46:19.240 very densely populated and filled with hundreds of innocent people 2:46:19.720 --> 2:46:22.600 that have nothing to do with Hamas. They drop bombs 2:46:22.640 --> 2:46:27.680 on buildings, hospitals, schools, nothing is off limits. I don't 2:46:27.680 --> 2:46:29.480 have to remind you, or maybe I do that they've 2:46:29.480 --> 2:46:33.240 also killed members of the press clearly wearing press vests. 2:46:34.080 --> 2:46:36.840 But I guess that's another topic for another day. What 2:46:37.000 --> 2:46:40.320 happened this time around with the attack that Hamas launched 2:46:40.320 --> 2:46:44.960 on October seventh was very different, though it's repeatedly been 2:46:45.000 --> 2:46:48.480 called unprecedented, and this is true for a few reasons, 2:46:48.879 --> 2:46:52.120 One because of the scale of the attack that Hamas launched, 2:46:52.600 --> 2:46:56.400 and two because nobody really saw it coming. As of 2:46:56.440 --> 2:46:59.880 this recording, more than one thousand and two hundreds of 2:47:00.000 --> 2:47:04.000 Israelis and foreign nationals, the majority of whom were civilians, 2:47:04.720 --> 2:47:09.040 were killed and more than three thousand were wounded. Hamas 2:47:09.080 --> 2:47:11.800 also said that it captured more than one hundred Israelis, 2:47:11.840 --> 2:47:17.680 including some senior military officers. Nothing like this, especially at 2:47:17.720 --> 2:47:20.879 this magnitude, has happened since two thousand and six, when 2:47:20.879 --> 2:47:25.360 Hamas captured one Israeli soldier, Galatschilit and held him in 2:47:25.400 --> 2:47:29.760 Gaza for five years. And in three days after Hamas 2:47:29.879 --> 2:47:32.640 launched this attack on October seventh, there were still gun 2:47:32.720 --> 2:47:36.400 battles going on between Hamas fighters and Israeli forces in 2:47:36.440 --> 2:47:40.840 the three main areas in southern Israel, and despite verified 2:47:40.840 --> 2:47:45.160 footage and reporting from Gaza that indisputably shows countless Palestinian 2:47:45.240 --> 2:47:48.840 children who Israel has killed so far. Israel's murder of 2:47:48.879 --> 2:47:52.879 Palestinian children is receiving little to no media attention in 2:47:52.920 --> 2:47:58.359 the US or globally, but they create the worst possible 2:47:58.480 --> 2:48:03.359 enemy the world, supports the destruction of an entire people, 2:48:04.200 --> 2:48:07.040 And as an Arab, I want to mention that it's 2:48:07.040 --> 2:48:10.200 really hard to see all of this play out, and 2:48:10.240 --> 2:48:12.120 if you have any Arab friends, I'm sure they're going 2:48:12.160 --> 2:48:16.320 through it too, especially if they're Palestinian, because it's almost 2:48:16.360 --> 2:48:19.560 like deja vus of what happened after nine to eleven, 2:48:20.320 --> 2:48:22.720 and what happened after nine to eleven didn't really stop. 2:48:22.840 --> 2:48:24.760 To be honest, it's not like a somophobia took a 2:48:24.800 --> 2:48:27.360 break and then came back. It's always been there, but 2:48:27.480 --> 2:48:32.200 now it's very shameless and disgusting, and it makes no 2:48:32.280 --> 2:48:35.440 attempt to cover itself because it's not only ignored, but 2:48:35.720 --> 2:48:39.240 encouraged in order to validate the actions of the US 2:48:39.320 --> 2:48:43.360 military and the Israeli military. Another reason for this all 2:48:43.360 --> 2:48:47.480 being so unprecedented is Israel's failure to stop it from happening. 2:48:48.400 --> 2:48:50.960 The Israeli Army is one of the world's most sophisticated 2:48:51.040 --> 2:48:53.959 military and intelligence organizations as well as one of the 2:48:53.959 --> 2:48:56.800 most powerful armies in the world. Because of the United 2:48:56.840 --> 2:49:00.400 States support and billions of dollars in funding, any kind 2:49:00.440 --> 2:49:02.840 of communication going in and out of Gaza, at least 2:49:02.840 --> 2:49:06.160 in theory, would be listened to by Israel's intelligence units. 2:49:06.520 --> 2:49:11.199 And again, the offence is heavily militarized, but still it collapsed. 2:49:11.920 --> 2:49:14.680 I think another significant result of this, which I kind 2:49:14.720 --> 2:49:17.720 of touched on earlier, is that this successful attack from 2:49:17.800 --> 2:49:22.000 Hamas completely undermines the never endingly talked about power of 2:49:22.040 --> 2:49:25.320 Israel and the power of their army and military, especially 2:49:25.440 --> 2:49:29.280 their capability in the region. It kind of disrupts their 2:49:29.440 --> 2:49:32.680 entire image in a way. I also want to quickly 2:49:32.720 --> 2:49:36.920 mention that the claim that Hamas's attack was unprovoked is 2:49:36.959 --> 2:49:41.240 ignoring the years of brutal occupation and exactly why they 2:49:41.280 --> 2:49:44.240 attacked in the first place. It was a surprise, yes, 2:49:44.680 --> 2:49:47.160 but I would never say it was unprovoked, because you 2:49:47.200 --> 2:49:50.640 can't keep someone in captivity their entire lifetime and expect 2:49:50.720 --> 2:49:54.800 them to hug it out. And maybe what I'm saying 2:49:54.920 --> 2:49:59.400 sounds radical to you, especially by the standards of American media, 2:50:00.240 --> 2:50:03.920 but here is this award winning Israeli journalist and writer 2:50:04.200 --> 2:50:09.160 Gideon Levy. He wrote an incredible piece about what's happening 2:50:09.280 --> 2:50:12.760 right now. He writes opinion pieces in a weekly column 2:50:12.800 --> 2:50:16.840 for Herits, and he focuses particularly on the Israeli occupation 2:50:16.959 --> 2:50:20.640 of Palestine, and he has won awards for his articles 2:50:20.680 --> 2:50:25.560 on human rights. He wrote an incredibly moving, powerful piece 2:50:25.840 --> 2:50:30.760 called Israel can't imprison two million Gozzens without paying a 2:50:30.840 --> 2:50:34.720 cruel price. I want to read excerpts from this because 2:50:34.800 --> 2:50:37.720 he is speaking as an Israeli and I think it's 2:50:37.760 --> 2:50:41.880 extremely important to hear what he has to say. Behind 2:50:41.959 --> 2:50:45.800 all this lies Israeli arrogance, the idea that we can 2:50:45.879 --> 2:50:48.560 do whatever we like that will never pay the price 2:50:48.680 --> 2:50:52.080 and never be punished for it, will carry on undisturbed. 2:50:53.000 --> 2:50:57.920 We'll arrest, kill, harass, dispossess, and protect the settlers busy 2:50:57.959 --> 2:51:01.680 with their programs. Will fire at innocent people, take out 2:51:01.680 --> 2:51:06.000 people's eyes and smash their faces, expel, confiscate, rob grab 2:51:06.040 --> 2:51:08.720 people from their beds, carry out ethnic cleansing, and of 2:51:08.760 --> 2:51:12.360 course continue with the unbelievable siege of the Gaza Strip 2:51:12.680 --> 2:51:16.280 and everything will be all right. We'll build a terrifying 2:51:16.320 --> 2:51:19.760 obstacle around Gaza and we'll be safe. Will rely on 2:51:19.840 --> 2:51:23.200 the geniuses of the Army's eighty two hundred cyber intelligence 2:51:23.280 --> 2:51:27.080 unit and on the Shinbet Security Service agents who know everything. 2:51:27.520 --> 2:51:30.640 Fe'll warn us in time. It turns out that even 2:51:30.720 --> 2:51:34.880 the world's most sophisticated and expensive obstacle can be breached 2:51:35.080 --> 2:51:38.480 with a smoky old bulldozer when the motivation is great. 2:51:39.280 --> 2:51:42.320 This arrogant barrier can be crossed by bicycle and moped, 2:51:42.520 --> 2:51:45.520 despite the billions poured into it and all the famous 2:51:45.560 --> 2:51:50.280 experts and fat cat contractors, we thought, we'd continue to 2:51:50.280 --> 2:51:52.760 go down to Gaza, scatter a few crumbs in the 2:51:52.800 --> 2:51:56.360 form of tens of thousands of Israeli work permits, always 2:51:56.400 --> 2:51:59.600 contingent on good behavior, and still keep them in prison. 2:52:00.320 --> 2:52:03.200 We'll make peace with Saudi Arabia and the United Emirates, 2:52:03.440 --> 2:52:06.920 and the Palestinians will be forgotten until they're erased, as 2:52:07.000 --> 2:52:11.160 quite a few Israelians would like. We'll keep holding thousands 2:52:11.200 --> 2:52:15.440 of Palestinian prisoners, some without trial, most of them political prisoners, 2:52:16.080 --> 2:52:19.119 and we won't agree to discuss their release, even after 2:52:19.240 --> 2:52:22.680 they've been in prison for decades. We'll tell them that 2:52:22.760 --> 2:52:26.199 only by force will their prisoners see freedom. We thought 2:52:26.200 --> 2:52:30.040 we would arrogantly keep rejecting any attempt at a diplomatic solution, 2:52:30.680 --> 2:52:32.640 only because we don't want to deal with all that, 2:52:32.840 --> 2:52:37.160 and everything will continue that way forever. Once again, it 2:52:37.240 --> 2:52:40.280 was proved that this isn't how it is. A few 2:52:40.400 --> 2:52:44.200 hundred armed Palestinians breached the barrier and invaded Israel in 2:52:44.240 --> 2:52:48.000 a way no Israeli imagine possible. A few hundred people 2:52:48.080 --> 2:52:52.439 proved that it's impossible to imprison two million people forever 2:52:53.080 --> 2:52:56.560 without paying a cruel price. Just as the smoky old 2:52:56.600 --> 2:53:01.480 Palestinian bulldozer tore through the world's smartest barrier, it tore 2:53:01.560 --> 2:53:05.640 away at Israel's arrogance and complacency. And that's also how 2:53:05.720 --> 2:53:07.880 it tore away at the idea that it's enough to 2:53:08.000 --> 2:53:11.480 occasionally attack Gaza with suicide drones and sell them to 2:53:11.560 --> 2:53:16.280 half the world to maintain security. On Saturday, Israel saw 2:53:16.320 --> 2:53:21.640 pictures it has never seen before, Palestinian vehicles patrolling gets cities, 2:53:21.760 --> 2:53:25.480 bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear 2:53:25.560 --> 2:53:29.400 away at that arrogance. The Gaza. Palestinians have decided they're 2:53:29.440 --> 2:53:33.480 willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. 2:53:33.760 --> 2:53:34.800 Is there any hope in that? 2:53:35.480 --> 2:53:35.640 No? 2:53:36.440 --> 2:53:41.080 Will Israel learn its lesson? No, On Saturday, they were 2:53:41.080 --> 2:53:44.840 already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about 2:53:44.879 --> 2:53:48.400 occupying the strip and punishing Gaza, quote as it has 2:53:48.480 --> 2:53:52.760 never been punished before. But Israel hasn't stopped punishing Gaza 2:53:52.800 --> 2:53:56.800 since nineteen forty eight, not for a moment. After seventy 2:53:56.840 --> 2:54:00.720 five years of abuse. The worst possible scenario awaits it 2:54:00.760 --> 2:54:05.440 once again. The threats of flattening Gaza prove only one thing. 2:54:06.320 --> 2:54:09.680 We haven't learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay, 2:54:10.120 --> 2:54:13.200 even though Israel is paying a high price once again. 2:54:14.320 --> 2:54:18.080 Prime Minister Benjamin N. Yaho bears a very great responsibility 2:54:18.080 --> 2:54:21.000 for what happened, and he must pay that price. But 2:54:21.120 --> 2:54:23.520 it didn't start with him, and it won't end after 2:54:23.600 --> 2:54:27.000 he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the 2:54:27.040 --> 2:54:31.640 Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza. Gaza, 2:54:32.040 --> 2:54:36.480 most of whose residents are refugees created by Israel, Gaza, 2:54:37.080 --> 2:54:40.959 which has never known a single day of freedom. I 2:54:41.080 --> 2:54:42.840 just think that piece is very powerful, and I know 2:54:42.879 --> 2:54:45.760 I read a good chunk of it. But I think 2:54:45.800 --> 2:54:51.520 it's important to hear, especially from an Israeli as he mentioned, Israel, 2:54:51.800 --> 2:54:55.199 because of this, has responded to the attack with extreme force. 2:54:56.080 --> 2:54:59.199 Prime Minister a little Bitchna and Yahoo said the enemy 2:54:59.240 --> 2:55:04.480 will pay an unprecedented price. Israel has bombed Gaza for days, 2:55:04.879 --> 2:55:09.600 hitting Gaza with air strikes, targeting hospitals, mosques, entire residential buildings, 2:55:09.840 --> 2:55:14.279 and calling Palestinians animals to the media, Israeli Defense Minister 2:55:14.360 --> 2:55:18.439 Yoav Galant said we are fighting animals and acting accordingly. 2:55:19.640 --> 2:55:21.960 Israel also said that it wants to wipe out Hamasa's 2:55:22.000 --> 2:55:26.600 military capability and end its control of Gaza, which doesn't 2:55:26.600 --> 2:55:30.800 really make sense because they're kind of targeting anything and 2:55:30.840 --> 2:55:35.120 now anything they can hit, including civilians, and at the 2:55:35.200 --> 2:55:38.160 end they want control themselves. So I think a lot 2:55:38.200 --> 2:55:41.000 of right wing Israeli politicians, which was most of them 2:55:41.080 --> 2:55:47.080 these days, say empty, stupid shit. And it also looks 2:55:47.160 --> 2:55:50.160 like amidst all this, that a ground invasion is likely 2:55:50.200 --> 2:55:53.160 going to happen because the IDF has been readying tanks 2:55:53.200 --> 2:55:56.600 and military jeeps. It sucks that I have to say 2:55:56.640 --> 2:55:59.760 this out loud, but peace should not come at the 2:56:00.080 --> 2:56:04.240 spence and the brutal oppression of others. There was no 2:56:04.400 --> 2:56:08.199 peace before this attack. The violence of the Israeli occupation 2:56:08.320 --> 2:56:10.920 has been there since the state was established in nineteen 2:56:10.959 --> 2:56:15.119 forty eight. Hamas is a direct result of that violence. 2:56:15.760 --> 2:56:17.959 There has never been peace in Israel because it was 2:56:18.040 --> 2:56:24.599 created in violence. And this clearly does not justify Hamas 2:56:24.800 --> 2:56:29.959 killing innocent people. That is never okay. But Israel also 2:56:30.000 --> 2:56:36.240 can justify killing thousands of people because of that. Abby Martin, 2:56:36.280 --> 2:56:39.040 who is the creator and host of the Empire Files. 2:56:39.360 --> 2:56:42.000 She also made the film Gaza Fights for Freedom, which 2:56:42.000 --> 2:56:46.600 I highly recommend. She posted this exchange on her Twitter 2:56:47.000 --> 2:56:49.840 between her and one of their field producers in Gaza, 2:56:50.640 --> 2:56:53.920 and he says, I'm scared, Abby, I feel I could 2:56:54.000 --> 2:56:57.680 die any second. Most of the people here lost power 2:56:57.800 --> 2:57:00.320 and internet connections, so we don't know where they hit. 2:57:01.000 --> 2:57:04.840 Entire neighborhoods are being erased. They killed twelve hundred of 2:57:04.920 --> 2:57:08.199 us so far and destroyed massively, and yet they say 2:57:08.240 --> 2:57:12.160 they have not started yet. We know massacres are coming, 2:57:12.400 --> 2:57:14.680 and we're sure they got the green light from the 2:57:14.800 --> 2:57:18.279 US to kill us all. So that is a perspective 2:57:18.320 --> 2:57:22.400 of someone standing in Gaza living in fear which isn't 2:57:22.800 --> 2:57:26.280 entirely new as far as living in fear goes, because 2:57:26.280 --> 2:57:29.800 that's been the reality for Gazans for decades. But this 2:57:29.879 --> 2:57:33.080 time it's different because it's very clear that Israel's committing 2:57:33.640 --> 2:57:37.760 a purposeful genocide. But they're in the dark with no 2:57:37.800 --> 2:57:41.440 one to help them, and I can only imagine how 2:57:41.440 --> 2:57:45.119 helpless and hopeless it feels. It just it breaks my heart. 2:57:46.280 --> 2:57:49.959 I just want to give a update, an unfortunate update, 2:57:50.120 --> 2:57:56.320 because things are just fucked and people keep dying. But 2:57:56.480 --> 2:58:00.000 I'm recording this update on the afternoon of October twelfth, 2:58:00.920 --> 2:58:03.520 like a day after I recorded the original stuff, and 2:58:04.240 --> 2:58:07.360 Israel has killed five hundred Palestinians in the Gaza Strip 2:58:07.600 --> 2:58:12.320 since this morning, five hundred in the last six hours 2:58:12.480 --> 2:58:17.000 twelve hours. Gaza's Health ministry said that one thousand, five 2:58:17.080 --> 2:58:21.959 hundred and thirty seven Palestinians, including five hundred children and 2:58:22.040 --> 2:58:25.800 two hundred and seventy six women, have been killed and 2:58:25.840 --> 2:58:29.000 there are almost seven thousand others wounded because of these 2:58:29.080 --> 2:58:34.840 Israeli air strikes. Loss of this magnitude is unsettling and overwhelming, 2:58:34.879 --> 2:58:38.480 and I also want to mention this is something I 2:58:38.600 --> 2:58:42.480 just learned. Israel has bombed the international airports of Aleppo 2:58:42.600 --> 2:58:46.280 in Damascus in Syria, and this has forced them out 2:58:46.320 --> 2:58:49.600 of service. So not only are they massacring the entire 2:58:49.640 --> 2:58:54.199 families in Gaza, but they're also dropping bombs on civilian 2:58:54.200 --> 2:58:58.600 airports in Syria. And the Western media still wants you 2:58:58.680 --> 2:59:03.000 to think that Israel is the victim. It bears repeating 2:59:03.120 --> 2:59:06.800 that Gaza is very densely populated, with two point three 2:59:06.879 --> 2:59:10.840 million people trapped in a very small space, unable to leave, 2:59:11.240 --> 2:59:15.520 with nowhere to escape to. An example of this empty, 2:59:15.680 --> 2:59:20.600 stupid rhetoric that Israeli politicians are saying is when Natanyahu 2:59:20.680 --> 2:59:25.120 said that civilians should leave and evacuate Gaza. He said 2:59:25.160 --> 2:59:28.480 that knowing full well that that is impossible because his 2:59:28.560 --> 2:59:32.560 government forbids it. He said that to the media so 2:59:32.640 --> 2:59:36.119 the world can see that he is just and not 2:59:36.200 --> 2:59:39.240 trying to attack any civilians. It's all a fucking show, 2:59:39.440 --> 2:59:42.520 like I guess all politics are. But it's still really 2:59:42.560 --> 2:59:46.240 infuriating and I hate it so much. And in Gaza, 2:59:46.959 --> 2:59:50.560 before all of this, before the thousands that have already died, 2:59:50.879 --> 2:59:54.680 there was already a blockade. They were trapped for fifteen years. 2:59:55.480 --> 2:59:59.680 And now in addition to this blockade, Israel has imposed 2:59:59.720 --> 3:00:04.320 a total siege on Gaza, inflicting collective punishment, which is 3:00:04.320 --> 3:00:09.520 illegal under international law. But Israel routinely commits war crimes 3:00:09.560 --> 3:00:13.280 and goes about its business unchecked. Why would it be 3:00:13.320 --> 3:00:17.400 any different this time. Remember that half of Gaza's population 3:00:17.640 --> 3:00:21.360 are under eighteen. Hundreds of children have been murdered, and 3:00:21.440 --> 3:00:25.080 horrific videos have been circulating of the destruction of Gaza, 3:00:25.160 --> 3:00:28.959 of bodies and babies and innocent people being pulled out 3:00:28.959 --> 3:00:32.720 of the rubble. I had a break down last night 3:00:32.800 --> 3:00:36.720 because I saw a video of a Palestinian father holding 3:00:37.360 --> 3:00:40.400 his dead child's corpse and hugging it for the very 3:00:40.480 --> 3:00:43.720 last time. And I'm very privileged to be sitting here 3:00:43.760 --> 3:00:47.600 recording this, And if I have difficulty processing it, I 3:00:47.640 --> 3:00:52.800 cannot imagine what Palestinians are going through. Israel controls everything 3:00:53.000 --> 3:00:57.880 in Gaza. If cut off electricity, food, water, and gas 3:00:58.040 --> 3:01:03.000 for an entire population, Israel is massacring Palestinians in a 3:01:03.040 --> 3:01:06.600 blackout on purpose, so they're unable to connect with anyone 3:01:06.680 --> 3:01:10.920 from the outside. No electricity also means that hospitals have 3:01:11.040 --> 3:01:14.160 no way of the already limited machines they have available 3:01:14.200 --> 3:01:18.039 to them so they can save lives. Before this, the 3:01:18.080 --> 3:01:22.240 water in Gaza was already ninety seven percent undrinkable, and 3:01:22.280 --> 3:01:26.879 now it's completely gone. This will lead to dehydration deaths, 3:01:26.959 --> 3:01:32.280 among many, many other deaths. Israel is starving an entire 3:01:32.360 --> 3:01:37.800 population live on your television, openly committing genocide as the 3:01:37.800 --> 3:01:40.879 world watches on as it always does. 3:01:44.240 --> 3:01:47.440 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:01:47.480 --> 3:01:49.400 from now until the heat Death of the Universe. 3:01:50.000 --> 3:01:52.480 It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:01:52.600 --> 3:01:55.240 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:01:55.280 --> 3:01:58.400 coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:01:58.440 --> 3:02:01.840 Apple Podcasts, or wherevery listen to podcasts. You can find 3:02:01.879 --> 3:02:05.080 sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia 3:02:05.160 --> 3:02:07.600 dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.