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Speaker 1: Media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: let you know this is a compilation episode. So every

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Speaker 1: episode of the week that just happened is here in

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Speaker 1: one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you

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Speaker 1: to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. Hey, everyone, Robert Evans here,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to It could happen here, as I'm sure you're aware,

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Speaker 1: at this point over the weekend, somewhere between five hundred

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Speaker 1: and one thousand Hamas fighters. Those numbers have a lot

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Speaker 1: of flex in them. It's really unclear at this moment.

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Speaker 1: That just kind of my guess based on what I've

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Speaker 1: seen so far, carried out a successful infiltration and sneak

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Speaker 1: attack across a wide swath of the Israeli border. Their

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Speaker 1: methods were varied from motorized hang gliders and boats to

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Speaker 1: mobile columns of technicals and bulldozers which they use to

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Speaker 1: breach fence lines. Surprise seems to have been newly total

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Speaker 1: in their worst intelligence failure since the nineteen seventies. Many

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Speaker 1: IDF troops were caught literally in their underwear. Casualties seem

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Speaker 1: to have been highest among the police, who were unprepared

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Speaker 1: for militants armed with conventional military weapons. Casualty accounts remain

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Speaker 1: heavily in flux, so I will not labor over them here.

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Speaker 1: Suffice to say that the best information at the time

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Speaker 1: that I'm writing this suggests at least one thousand dead

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Speaker 1: in the first day or so of fighting. It appears

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Speaker 1: at the moment to be fairly evenly split between Israeli soldiers, police,

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Speaker 1: and civilians, as well as Hamas fighters and Palestinian civilians.

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Speaker 1: We can expect the death toll among Palestinians to rise

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Speaker 1: steadily in the near future as the bombing of Gaza escalates.

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Speaker 1: It is very clear, though, that the Hamas did not

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Speaker 1: strike only military targets, and Israelis and Palestinians are not

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Speaker 1: the only people killed.

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Speaker 2: Right now, there are reports.

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Speaker 1: Coming in that a music festival, it was some sort

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Speaker 1: of sytrance psychedelia festival in southern Israel, on land that

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Speaker 1: was possibly illegally occupied, was attacked by Hamas militants. Something

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Speaker 1: like two hundred and sixty people are confirmed to have

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Speaker 1: been killed. There's pretty hideous video of a young German

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Speaker 1: woman in her twenties, her corpse stripped, being paraded around

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Speaker 1: by fighters. It's very ugly stuff. There's also unclear videos

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Speaker 1: of other killings. I've seen one video of a man

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Speaker 1: beating another man's head in it's claimed to be a

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Speaker 1: HUMAS militant and civilian clothes beating a Filipino guest worker

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Speaker 1: in Israel to death. There's no actual evidence that I've

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Speaker 1: seen as to who either person in the video is,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the videos of horrible things that

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Speaker 1: are spreading right now are just that, videos that definitely

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Speaker 1: show violence, but that are extremely unclear as to who

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Speaker 1: is perpetrating the violence and why. We do, of course

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Speaker 1: know that hummas targeted a number of civilians. A significant

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Speaker 1: number were killed, including people in their homes, and unknown

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Speaker 1: numbers of people were kidnapped and taken back across the

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Speaker 1: border to be ransomed later for imprisoned fighters and Palestinian civilians.

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Speaker 1: This has happened before in previous escalations of conflict in

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Speaker 1: the area. It's not a new tactic, and the videos

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Speaker 1: of it are of course horrifying. The capturing and killing

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Speaker 1: of civilians is by any definition of the term, a

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Speaker 1: war crime. Israel's response has been horrifying as well, and

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Speaker 1: writ on a larger scale. Significant chunks of Gaza have

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Speaker 1: already been leveled in air strikes. At least one hospital

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Speaker 1: has been targeted, killing a nurse. Israel has cut off

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Speaker 1: power to Gasam, an active collective punishment that also qualifies

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Speaker 1: as a war crime. That term has less weight than

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Speaker 1: it used to these days. Many of us in the

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Speaker 1: West grew up with illusions about a rules based international order.

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Speaker 1: The crimes occurring now will continue to erode the idea

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Speaker 1: that war might ever have limits, Like whitewater cutting a

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Speaker 1: path through stone. I try to stay plugged into such things,

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Speaker 1: and I become aware of this most recent eruption as

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Speaker 1: it happened. I spent several hours trying to understand the

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Speaker 1: early open source dilligence, watching people that I trusted in

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Speaker 1: the region post videos that they could verify, and then

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Speaker 1: I went to sleep. When I woke up, I saw

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Speaker 1: the expected river of bloodthirst on social media. This is

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Speaker 1: also nothing new. The Internet has not created this behavior.

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Speaker 1: You may have read when you were in high school

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Speaker 1: that early in the US Civil War, picnicking civilians would

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Speaker 1: show up to ogle the Battle of Manassas. Certain aspects

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Speaker 1: of online culture have, however, lent a deeper ugliness to

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Speaker 1: the affair. I noticed this for the first time during

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Speaker 1: the fighting against ISIS. I reported from Mosel several times

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Speaker 1: and kept up with various Telegram channels, WhatsApp groups, and

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Speaker 1: Twitter accounts that shared footage and updates from the field.

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Speaker 1: A subculture developed around this, fueled by a mix of

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Speaker 1: professional seeking intel and amateurs, some of whom later became experts,

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Speaker 1: and others of whom simply liked watching the violence. All

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Speaker 1: of us experienced a degree of desensitization, and Gallo's humor

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Speaker 1: was common. Researchers would share their favorite ISIS nachets, actively

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Speaker 1: Jihati theme music, and throw Arabic phrases that they'd read

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Speaker 1: in issues of Debiq, Isis's magazine into daily conversation. Lines

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Speaker 1: of dialogue from different videos of combat became catchphrases. The

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Speaker 1: best known of these was probably a video released in

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Speaker 1: April of twenty sixteen, which showed a group of four

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Speaker 1: ISIS fighters battling Kurdish troops north of Mosul. These guys

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Speaker 1: were not overly familiar with their weaponry, much of which

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Speaker 1: had recently been looted from Iraqi army stores. One of

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Speaker 1: the fighters in the video, Abu Hajar, fucks up constantly,

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Speaker 1: at one point roasting his own men with the back

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Speaker 1: blast of a rocket launcher. The timing on it is

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Speaker 1: pretty perfect, and it's basically impossible not to laugh a

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Speaker 1: little at this. His comrade shouts a now infamous line

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Speaker 1: at him, what is wrong with you? Abu Hajar. The

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Speaker 1: man who filmed the video dies, of course, and so

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Speaker 1: did a bunch of other people that day. Now, these

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Speaker 1: guys are Isis fighters, so it wasn't hard to laugh

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Speaker 1: at the footage and move on. I did, and so

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Speaker 1: did many other people. I still chuckle sometime at it.

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Speaker 1: Of late, though, I've come to find the laughter more unsettling.

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Speaker 1: This started after the expanded Russian invasion of Ukraine. I

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Speaker 1: began to see videos of wounded, dying, and dead Russian conscripts.

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Speaker 1: These were often close in gory shots, devoid of broader information,

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Speaker 1: and shot purely for entertainments. One thing to watch combat

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Speaker 1: videos in which people die if it gives you an

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Speaker 1: understanding of the nature of combat in that theater of war.

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Speaker 1: The kinds of weapons, use the efficacy of certain tactics.

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Speaker 1: It's another to just look at a bleeding teenager as

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Speaker 1: he slowly dies and joke about it. Now, some of

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Speaker 1: the folks who were laughing are people I knew Ukrainian

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Speaker 1: civilians and volunteers, and I cannot blame them, and do

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Speaker 1: not blame them for taking satisfaction or even mirth in

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Speaker 1: the death of an invader. That is how war works,

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Speaker 1: that is how war has always worked. It is foolish

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Speaker 1: and cruel to ask for decorum from people under siege.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure many Goasins feel the same about footage now

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Speaker 1: flooding the Internet from this most recent attack. But many

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Speaker 1: of the people cheering at dead Russian conscripts were not

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Speaker 1: soldiers and not civilians who were being shelled by that state,

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Speaker 1: but were random Americans, middle class, suburban war aficionados, far

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Speaker 1: from the danger, who spent time, who took a moment

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Speaker 1: from their day to joke about suffering soldiers in a

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Speaker 1: foreign country. A mirror of that behavior now proliferates as well.

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Speaker 1: It curdled my gut then and it still does. But

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Speaker 1: my feelings here are immaterial. I have come to believe

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Speaker 1: that this behavior is impossible to avoid or even mitigate.

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Speaker 1: To a very substantial degree. It also appears to be

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Speaker 1: nearly universal. Social media has made barbarism easier than ever

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Speaker 1: to monetize. As the years have gone on, every new

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Speaker 1: eruption of violence around the world brings with it more

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Speaker 1: footage faster. Ocent open source intelligence accounts have gone from

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Speaker 1: a niche obsession among reporters and conflict nerds to mainstream entertainment.

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Speaker 1: Because views equal money, especially on Twitter, where Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: pays people based on the end game age they get,

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Speaker 1: there is now a financial incentive to post videos that

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Speaker 1: will be shared widely, and as always, the stuff that

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Speaker 1: is shared most widely is the stuff that makes people angry.

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Speaker 1: Videos need not be truthful to spread. In some cases,

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Speaker 1: this means reposting old footage as if it is new.

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Speaker 1: This is particularly easy with the conflict in Gaza, since

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Speaker 1: Israel has launched so many strikes against it over the years.

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Speaker 1: One video of a building crumbling into rubble left or

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Speaker 1: a missile strike is as good as another. To the

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Speaker 1: rats scrambling for Elon Musk's pocket change, many viral disinformation

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Speaker 1: videos are just clips from the check video game Arma two.

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Speaker 1: For roughly a decade, footage of in game combat has

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Speaker 1: gone viral, netting followers and sometimes money for all manner

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Speaker 1: of shady figures. If you see video that's claimed to

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Speaker 1: be an Israeli helicopter or a Russian helicopter or an

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Speaker 1: American helicopter being shot down in some erupting field, you

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Speaker 1: should really double check that, because there's always a very

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Speaker 1: good chance that it's a clip from this video game

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Speaker 1: of a chopper going down or of some other kind

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Speaker 1: of military vehicle being taken out. In real warfare. It's

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Speaker 1: quite rare to get footage at a good angle and

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Speaker 1: close to that sort of thing. So anytime you see

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Speaker 1: footage that seems like it might be too good to

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Speaker 1: be real, it probably is. Such disinformation is, of course unsightly,

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Speaker 1: but that's not all it is. It can provoke violence

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Speaker 1: as well. A recent New York Times article on social

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Speaker 1: media disinformation makes this clear quote. The Times found several

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Speaker 1: pieces of misinformation that spread out across Israeli and Palestinian

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Speaker 1: neighborhood and activist WhatsApp groups this week. One which appeared

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Speaker 1: as a block of Hebrew text or an audio file,

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Speaker 1: contained a warning that Palestinian mobs were preparing to descend

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Speaker 1: on Israeli civilians. Palestinians are coming, parents, Protect your children,

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Speaker 1: read the message, which pointed specifically to several suburban areas

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Speaker 1: north of Tel Aviv. Thousands of people were in one

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Speaker 1: of the telegram groups where the post was shared. The

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Speaker 1: post then appeared in several WhatsApp groups, which had dozens

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Speaker 1: to hundreds of members. Now there were no reports of

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Speaker 1: violence in the areas mentioned in this post. This kind

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Speaker 1: of thing happened all over the world and has been

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Speaker 1: happening for years, and the fact that it's untrue does

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Speaker 1: not stop similar viral lies from inspiring and justifying mass

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Speaker 1: violence in places like India and Myanmar. In both those countries,

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Speaker 1: much of this targeted disinformation was posted at the direct

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Speaker 1: behest of state security agencies to further their efforts at genocide.

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Speaker 1: None of this is new. It all just works much

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Speaker 1: faster thanks to social media. The one truly significant change

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Speaker 1: in recent months has been the addition of a direct

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Speaker 1: profit motive to sharing lies. The best recent example of

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Speaker 1: this is a fellow named Mario Naffall. He's a con

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Speaker 1: artist and a crypto scammer who embezzled from his own

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Speaker 1: company and has built a massive following retweeting out of

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Speaker 1: context videos, starting with the Wagner rebellion in Russia. Earlier

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Speaker 1: this year, Elon Musk, whose ignorance of that conflict is unsurpassed,

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Speaker 1: called Naffall's messages the best coverage I've seen so far.

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Speaker 1: More recently, Marion Na Fall has been responsible for spreading

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Speaker 1: fake news about the potential capture of Nimrod Alone, who

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Speaker 1: is the commander of Israel's southern forces in the region.

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Speaker 1: The video that he claimed was Nimrod Alone being taken

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Speaker 1: into captivity was in fact a completely different person. It's

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Speaker 1: actually unclear who. Mario does not know anything about anything,

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Speaker 1: and I think was just lying because that would be

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Speaker 1: the most salacious thing possible. It's also worth noting that

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk recently made a post highlighting a couple of

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Speaker 1: ocent accounts that were his recommendations, his picks for credible

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Speaker 1: people to report on the conflict, and you should follow

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Speaker 1: these folks. He then deleted part of that tweet and

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Speaker 1: self censored himself when one of the sources he had

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Speaker 1: picked referred to dead Hamas fighters as martyrs, which Elon

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Speaker 1: had an issue with. Clearly, what he's doing is attempting

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Speaker 1: to pick and set his own propaganda dispensers, you know,

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Speaker 1: the people that, for whatever reason he thinks, are providing

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Speaker 1: the most convenient narrative about what's happening. None of this

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Speaker 1: should be mistaken for actual news.

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Speaker 2: It is likely that.

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Speaker 1: Much, perhaps most, of the footage on your timeline from

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Speaker 1: the fighting in Gaza and Israel is reposted video that

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Speaker 1: is not current. Obviously, there is a lot of current

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Speaker 1: footage going out right now too, but a significant amount

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Speaker 1: of it is not. I find this exasperating, even as

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Speaker 1: I wonder how much that really matters. Is sharing old

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Speaker 1: footage of civilian homes being leveled by Israeli missiles really

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Speaker 1: an issue when similar homes are being bombed at the

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Speaker 1: same time. I do still think so, but I'm no

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Speaker 1: longer sure that my feelings on the matter are quite rational.

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Speaker 1: The most commonly accepted definition of intelligence of intellect that

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Speaker 1: you'll find is the ability to adapt to change and

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Speaker 1: select environments, or the ability to deal with change in

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Speaker 1: your environment. If that is truly the best measure of intelligence,

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Speaker 1: then my discussed at disinformation makes me kind of stupid.

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Speaker 1: Its purveyors have had blinding success in using it to

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Speaker 1: push their own narratives and to shape reality. I use

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Speaker 1: the word barbarism earlier to describe this, and it's a

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Speaker 1: loaded word, but not nearly so loaded as its synonym, savagery.

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Speaker 1: Savagery is a word that inspires powerful emotions for good reason.

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Speaker 1: It was often used by white supremacist colonizers to paint

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Speaker 1: whole peoples as backwards and less human, especially when they

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Speaker 1: engaged in acts of resistance that were in reality no

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Speaker 1: bloodier or more violent than the acts being perpetrated against them.

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Speaker 1: The word predates European colonialism, though it seems to date

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Speaker 1: back to around thirteen hundred, and it entered French salvage

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Speaker 1: like the Cologne Johnny depphawks from the Latin salvaticus, which

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Speaker 1: literally means of the woods. Why this digression because in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four, an Islamist strategist named Abu Baker

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Speaker 1: Naji published a book on the Internet titled Management of Savagery.

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Speaker 1: In Naji's conception, savagery was defined as terrorist attacks against

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Speaker 1: civilian infrastructure and stufflike tourist facilities, which were meant to

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Speaker 1: provoke violent escalations from superpowers, that violence would radicalize more

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Speaker 1: people against the West and lead to a progressive degradation

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Speaker 1: of social order and operational capacity. In the nation's nause

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Speaker 1: saw as enemies, The management of savagery was a key

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Speaker 1: text for the men who wound up creating the Islamic State.

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Speaker 1: Some will use this to argue that the tactics failed,

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Speaker 1: since Isis is not exactly thriving at present. To do

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Speaker 1: so would be to ignore the six trillion dollars the

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Speaker 1: United States lit on fire fighting a disastrous war on terror,

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Speaker 1: which supercharged much of the underlying instability in our country

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Speaker 1: and may yet lead to a collapse in domestic order.

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Speaker 1: I will admit that I have found the framework of

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Speaker 1: managing savagery useful in my interpretation and understanding of conflict,

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Speaker 1: both domestic and international. In twenty twenty I got to

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Speaker 1: watch the process up close over the course of dozens

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Speaker 1: of protests. The basic strategy of most Portland protests that year.

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Speaker 1: When like this you got a bunch of people to

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Speaker 1: march up to a police building, they would chant and

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Speaker 1: yell until the police got angry and then gassed and

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Speaker 1: or beat up everybody. After a while, this dynamic was

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Speaker 1: widely understood and accepted by protesters. They saw their suffering

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Speaker 1: and the risk that they engaged in as an acceptable

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Speaker 1: trade off because it revealed the violence and savagery inherent

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Speaker 1: in policing as an institution. This, they hoped would radicalize

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Speaker 1: others against it, people who watched clips of videos from

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Speaker 1: the protest or who attended themselves, And for a time

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Speaker 1: this strategy worked quite well. Many people who had been

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Speaker 1: a political on the matter grew utterly hardened against the

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Speaker 1: cops after a few hours in the gas clouds. People

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Speaker 1: cannot endure violence, however, without being changed by it, so

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Speaker 1: as the week's war on, participants grew more and more

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Speaker 1: comfortable with not just property destruction, but with the use

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Speaker 1: of things like molotov cocktails. One may consider a molotov

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Speaker 1: to be necessary sometimes, and throughout history they often have been,

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Speaker 1: but savage is as good a term to describe firebombs

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Speaker 1: as any. No one was killed by any molotov that

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Speaker 1: I ever saw used in Portland, but of course no

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Speaker 1: protests come close to the savagery of warfare. The emotional

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Speaker 1: dynamics at play are shades of each other, though, and

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Speaker 1: I thought it might be useful to mention. Perhaps a

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Speaker 1: more or illustrative example would be my own experiences in Mosul.

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Speaker 1: In the early summer of twenty seventeen. My team and

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Speaker 1: I were embedded with an Iraqi federal police unit in

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Speaker 1: the Old City, where the fighting was intense and hideous.

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Speaker 1: We came under fire from a sniper. Some of the

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Speaker 1: shots were so close that chipped concrete hit my helmet.

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Speaker 1: The mortar team with us responded with the help of

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Speaker 1: a spotter. They dropped explosive shells on homes and shops

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Speaker 1: until they hit and killed the sniper. In that moment,

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Speaker 1: I felt elation I've seldom felt since. After we found

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Speaker 1: better cover, I began composing the scene in my head,

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Speaker 1: laying out how I would write it. Then my fixer, Sangar,

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Speaker 1: said something that interrupted my train of thought and has

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Speaker 1: remained with me ever since. Did you count how many

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Speaker 1: rounds they fired before they hit him? I told him

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Speaker 1: I thought it was six or seven. Maybe where do

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Speaker 1: you think the others landed?

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Speaker 3: From?

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Speaker 1: His tone was clear what he meant. The old city

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Speaker 1: was crowded. Many civilians had not yet been able to

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Speaker 1: escape the Isis lines. Their homes were often next door

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Speaker 1: to fighting positions. And the density of the city meant

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Speaker 1: that any honest hit still had a good chance of

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Speaker 1: hitting someone. Later, I met a man whose house had

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Speaker 1: been hit twenty times by mortar rounds and rockets before

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Speaker 1: he had a chance to escape with his family, So

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Speaker 1: the glee of the moment faded. My writing about that

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Speaker 1: scene was more sober, more careful, and much better. As

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Speaker 1: a result, saying our's words have helped me shape both

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Speaker 1: my coverage of war and my reactions to it. Ever

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Speaker 1: since this shouldn't matter to people being bombed out of

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Speaker 1: their homes and losing loved ones right now, it might

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Speaker 1: be helpful though, to those of us watching bloodshed from

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Speaker 1: behind a screen, at least until we're the ones filming.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to It could happen here on Garrison Davis. This

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Speaker 4: is the show where we talk about how everything is

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Speaker 4: kind of falling apart and how we can sometimes put

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Speaker 4: it back together. Joining me is my dear, dear collaborator

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Speaker 4: and friend, James is Stout. Good Good morning, James.

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Speaker 5: Good morning, Garrison.

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Speaker 6: That's very kind of you, Thank you, And we.

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Speaker 4: Got a very special episode here today. We are talking

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Speaker 4: with four people who have put together a new book

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Speaker 4: by Aka Press called no Parseran. We're gonna have kind

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Speaker 4: of a little bit of a like a group discussion

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Speaker 4: about anti fascist history and this kind of this the

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Speaker 4: state of anti fascism in the past few years. I know,

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Speaker 4: this is how I kind of got started with radical

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Speaker 4: politics growing up in Portland, Oregon. You see Nazis marching

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Speaker 4: around in your street and you're like, oh, well, this

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Speaker 4: is obviously a problem. Someone should probably do something about this.

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Speaker 4: And stuff has changed a lot the past the past

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Speaker 4: few years. I mean, like the anti fascist movement that

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Speaker 4: I got kind of that I kind of got into

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Speaker 4: only twenty eighteen. You know, it's very different now, and

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Speaker 4: it's I don't know, there's these types of things live

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Speaker 4: on through like oral histories as well as you know, books,

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Speaker 4: and I think it's really cool to have these types

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Speaker 4: of conversations. So joining us today is Shane Burley, Emily Gorcinski,

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Speaker 4: Michael Novic, and Darryl Lamont Jakins. Greetings everyone, I'm going

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Speaker 4: to hand it over to Shane and you can kind

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Speaker 4: of talk about the book, I guess.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, thanks Scarrison, Thanks James for having us on the

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Speaker 7: whole crew of us. Yeah, this book was something came

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Speaker 7: out last year, but we had been working on it

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Speaker 7: for about four years. I'm starting in twenty eighteen. I

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Speaker 7: was drunk with Kim Kelly and New York and we

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Speaker 7: thought it'd be really great to put together something with

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Speaker 7: all of our friends. And what do you do with

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Speaker 7: a big group of people. It takes like four or

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Speaker 7: five years to pull off. But really the idea was

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Speaker 7: trying to do something that was bigger than what had

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Speaker 7: been written about anti fascism at that point, which was

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Speaker 7: shockingly narrow. What people understood of as of just a

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Speaker 7: few movements, mostly very recent history, and so much wasn't

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Speaker 7: being included in that conversation. So the idea was, how

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Speaker 7: can we build out like a much bigger picture of

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Speaker 7: this by including as many voices as possible.

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Speaker 2: So we ended up getting a couple.

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Speaker 7: Of dozen folks together that had different takes on it,

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Speaker 7: some talking about tech, some talking about deep history, some

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Speaker 7: talking about anti fascism in their countries other continents, and

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Speaker 7: so in general, the idea was to make it feel

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Speaker 7: like a discussion between people who either know each other

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Speaker 7: or should be like in some kind of comradeship with

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Speaker 7: each other. So that was sort of where it came together.

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Speaker 7: I think with this conversation, the way we were thinking

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Speaker 7: about this is I wanted to I wanted the opportunity

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Speaker 7: to talk with basically my friends about their history a

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Speaker 7: little bit, and so I asked three folks that had

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Speaker 7: a really long history with doing organizing work, and so

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Speaker 7: I thought it would be cool maybe if you go

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Speaker 7: through talking to them a little bit about their prehistory

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Speaker 7: or their early history organizing. And Michael, your history goes

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Speaker 7: back the furthest as you know, we know, so I

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Speaker 7: thought we could kick off with you and then talk

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Speaker 7: with Emily and then Darryl, just kind of getting into

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Speaker 7: your background. So how do you get started in movement work?

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Speaker 7: Actually I should say first, when did you get started

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Speaker 7: in movement where?

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Speaker 8: Well, yeah, so I sometimes felt a little bit of

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Speaker 8: a dinosaur. I was born in nineteen forty seven, so

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Speaker 8: the fascism in power was a fairly recent reality in

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Speaker 8: my life. My father was an immigrant from Poland. I

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Speaker 8: came here in the thirties. Most of his family was

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Speaker 8: destroyed in Ballastoke. They had an uprising there similar to

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Speaker 8: the Warsaw Getto uprising, and almost everybody was lipidated in

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Speaker 8: that process. So there's a family history there for me

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Speaker 8: also obviously grew up in the shadow of the US

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Speaker 8: atomic bombing of Rosha Monagasaki and the US incarceration of

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Speaker 8: Japanese Americans and concentration camps, so you know, those realities

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Speaker 8: in my life. I've lived in a you know, orthodox

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Speaker 8: Jewish immigrant working class family and neighborhood in Brooklyn, which

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Speaker 8: is now dominated by extremely right wing forces Borough Park.

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Speaker 8: It's one of the bastions of probably uh you know,

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Speaker 8: neo fashionst Republican prosionists. But somehow when I grew up

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Speaker 8: there that was not the case. Anyway, I got involved

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Speaker 8: in politics in the sixties and you know student movement stuff,

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Speaker 8: anti war stuff, and at Brooklyn College, which when I

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Speaker 8: was there was a three public, four year college part

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Speaker 8: of the City University system in New York, and I

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Speaker 8: was actually eventually elected student body president. They had liquidated

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Speaker 8: the student government earlier when you know, people opposed the

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Speaker 8: Korean War, and we had a struggle to get you know,

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Speaker 8: for student rights and anti war stuff and so on,

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Speaker 8: and we succeeded in getting student body elections for officers

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Speaker 8: for the first time in about a dozen years. But

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Speaker 8: you know, as part of all that anti war and

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Speaker 8: anti police brutality and other stuff that was going on

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Speaker 8: in Brooklyn at the time. And then we raised the

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Speaker 8: question of the fact that Brooklyn College was ninety eight

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Speaker 8: percent white or nine percent white in a borough that

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Speaker 8: even then was you know, the majority black in Puerto Rican.

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Speaker 8: And suddenly all the student support we had had for

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Speaker 8: all the other struggles cops off the campus and you know,

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Speaker 8: Navy off the campus, and so on we go, you know,

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Speaker 8: got a dean of students fired and other stuff. But

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Speaker 8: as soon as we raised the question of opening the

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Speaker 8: campus up and having open ambissions to the city university

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Speaker 8: system and a special emissions program for black and Puerto

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Speaker 8: Rican high school students, most of our student support evaporated.

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Speaker 8: And for me that was an object lesson that unless

432
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 8: you're you know, conscious the organizing about internalized and institutionalized racism,

433
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 8: everything else you do that is you know, progressive or

434
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 8: anti imperialist or anti war is kind of a house

435
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 8: of cards or you know, castles made of sand. And

436
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 8: in particular and raising those issues, we discovered that there

437
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 8: was a fascist element down the campus. There were people

438
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 8: who formed the early Jewish Defense League in Brooklyn who

439
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 8: were primarily anti black and Also there's a group called

440
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 8: the youth what was it, Young Americans for Vitom YAF,

441
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 8: which was like the youth wing of the National Review,

442
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 8: right wing Republican formation, and they were pretty openly fascistic

443
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 8: in their politics. So, you know, it became a question

444
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 8: that if you were doing you know, anti racist and

445
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 8: anti war and anti capitalist organizing, you were going to

446
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 8: face not just you know, a struggle against the force

447
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 8: of the state, but that there were reactionary elements within

448
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 8: particularly white society. And I think because I said the colonialism,

449
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 8: you know, there's a mass base for that. And struck

450
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 8: by the title of the show just say, I don't

451
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 8: know if people are familiar with the book, it can't

452
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 8: happen here, but obviously your title is a reflection it

453
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 8: could happen here. I think it has happened here. For

454
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 8: one thing, I think the fashion has always been an

455
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 8: element of US political culture because of settler colonialism. You knows,

456
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 8: definition of fascism is that it's bringing the methods of

457
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 8: rule of the colonies into the metropol But the US

458
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 8: is the settler colony, and therefore there are colonized people

459
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 8: inside this country. You can always have been and so

460
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 8: fascistic elements of you know, slave labor genocide, you know,

461
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 8: land theft, all the rest have always been part and

462
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 8: part of that is also creating that mass base within

463
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 8: the settler population that supports you know, that leadership. So anyway,

464
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 8: I think that that you know, that both those personal

465
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,719
Speaker 8: aspects and that consciousness, and so I came in contact with,

466
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 8: you know, the very radical forces in the Black Freedom

467
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 8: Circle back then. The Black Panther Party is very active.

468
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 8: There was one of the people in the Black Student

469
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 8: Union joined the Black Panther Party. You know, there's a

470
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 8: period of very fascist attacks and the Panthers had formed

471
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 8: the National Committee of Combat Fascism and had an analysis

472
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 8: that you know, the US was fascistic, and you know,

473
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 8: George Jackson at that time said, you know, fascism is

474
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 8: already here, and I think he meant it, you know literally,

475
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 8: And so that's part of the perspective I've carried through

476
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 8: for you know, I don't know what that is sixty

477
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 8: years now close to him.

478
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I think really quickly, I would like

479
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 7: to hear kind of what your experience was with forming

480
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 7: John Brown. Where did the idea come from? Because I

481
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 7: think for a lot of a lot of people are

482
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 7: thinking of recent anti fascist American anti fascist history ends

483
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 7: up being kind of a starting point for a certain

484
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 7: kind of no platform tactic. So how did you first

485
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 7: kind of develop that? What brought you in?

486
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 8: So, yeah, just to say, I was, you know, coming

487
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 8: out of the movement as I did, I moved from

488
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 8: New York to California because there was a strong There

489
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 8: was a newspaper called The Movement, which was the newspaper

490
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 8: basically of friends of Snick. It was the people who

491
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 8: left Snick when Snick adopted a black power analysis and

492
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 8: said that white people who were involved should go organize

493
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 8: in the white community. And there was a you know,

494
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 8: kind of a I was part of a working class

495
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 8: organizing collective in Hayward, California. Eventually out of that I

496
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 8: got connected with, you know, some of the people that

497
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 8: lad a foreign Prairie Fire organized committee. I was in

498
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 8: a group in the Bay Area called the June twenty

499
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 8: eighth Union. It was a gay ends, pro socialist, anti imperiallests,

500
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 8: pro feminist collective of mostly people of being the set.

501
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 8: And we went to what was called the Hard Times Conference,

502
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 8: which was put on by Prairie Far Organizing Committee in Chicago,

503
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 8: and it turned out that there was secretly an effort

504
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 8: by the weather underground to come up from underground to

505
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 8: create a new communist party, and they surfaced that at

506
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 8: that conference. But there's a lot of opposition to that

507
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 8: from across the board, from different Black liberation, American Indian movement,

508
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 8: the Puerto Rican, depending, the Struggle, Chicago movement, all of them,

509
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 8: you know, felt that there was a sell out of

510
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 8: the politics there anyway. Out of that process I was

511
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 8: part of. I joined a Prairie Fire Organized Committee eventually,

512
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 8: and that split and then it was a West coast

513
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 8: group which captained Prairie far the East coast formed a

514
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 8: group called the main Eineteenth Communist Organization and they launched

515
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 8: the original John Brown Anti Clan Committee, an initiative from

516
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 8: the prisons, the organized prisoners and New York had discovered

517
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 8: that there was an extensive network of clan claverns that

518
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 8: were based in the prison guards and some of the

519
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 8: white prisoners, and they asked for outside supporters to begin

520
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 8: to expose that and deal with it and help them

521
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 8: deal with it. And John Brandon, the Gillen Committee, was

522
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 8: formed out of that. Separately very far on the West

523
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 8: Coast had formed a group called Take a Stand against

524
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 8: the Klan. There was a lot of you know, that

525
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 8: was the period that the beginning of the sort notification

526
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 8: of the clan that was going on. So this is

527
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 8: the seventies and eventually, you know, under a challenge from

528
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 8: particularly the New African Independence movement, the Malcolm Xis grassroots movement,

529
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 8: New African People's Organization, which both Prairie Fire on the

530
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 8: West Coast and May nineteenth and the East Coast were

531
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 8: connected to, they pushed for a joint organization. So at

532
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 8: that point there was a kind of reconstitution of John

533
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 8: Brannan at the Clan Committee, and so I was part

534
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 8: of that and we merged. You know, there were chapters

535
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 8: in Atlanta, Chicago, the Bay Area, Los Angeles where I

536
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 8: ended up in New York, I think Bowling Green, maybe

537
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 8: the couple of Connecticut, and so they were quite active

538
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 8: in that period, and you know, street level confrontations and

539
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 8: you know, other exposures of early Neo Nazi activity and

540
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 8: clan activity, but particularly from a perspective of conscious and

541
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 8: active solidarity with the black freedom struggling, particularly the New

542
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 8: African Independence Movement which is a very high level of unity,

543
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 8: and over a period of time, you know, there was

544
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 8: a struggle to broaden that out and try to be

545
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 8: a more all embracing organization that could relate to the struggle.

546
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 8: There were a lot of different formations at that time.

547
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 8: There was the National Anti Clan Network, and there was

548
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 8: a couple of others, and there were different politics among

549
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 8: all of them, and you know, John Brandeth Glen made

550
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 8: that time took more of a position of pro direct

551
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 8: action and also, as they say, kind of just salidated

552
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 8: with the Black freedom struggle as a basis for doing

553
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 8: that work.

554
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 7: The Anti Clan Network I think so people kind of

555
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 7: know that's where the Southern Poverty Law Center eventually came

556
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 7: out of another networks of these different groups out here

557
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 7: in Oregon, the Rural Organizing Project was sort of like

558
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 7: a down the line there. I think it's interesting too

559
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 7: about the founding story. I was talking with our mutual

560
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 7: friend Lisa Roth, who is part of the founding of that.

561
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 7: Very first iteration of the John Brown Committee was they

562
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 7: were doing a prison organizing with Black Panthers and Upstate

563
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 7: New York and they were writing these letters saying the

564
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 7: prison guards are clan and they thought, you mean, they're

565
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 7: really racist, you know, obviously they're the prison guards. Yeah,

566
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 7: and when they went and looked it up. No, the

567
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 7: president of the prison guard union was the Grand Dragon

568
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 7: of the State KKK.

569
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 8: He actually he had a position within the prison system

570
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 8: as the head of the sort of education activity, educational

571
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 8: activities in the prisons, and was using his formal position

572
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 8: within the prison system to organize white prisoners along with

573
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 8: the guards into clan collaborance.

574
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 7: Which seems like a total that was sort of a

575
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 7: validation with the centerpiece of John Brown being that cops

576
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 7: and clan have that kind of collaboration because that was

577
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 7: there kind of the founding like lesson of that organizing.

578
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 8: Sure, the blue by day, White by night and a

579
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 8: lot of those slogans come out of that period, and

580
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 8: you know, I think it is you know, it's related

581
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 8: to the later the ar a line that you know,

582
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 8: fascism is built from above and below that there's you know,

583
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 8: elements within the state that are operating independently, but there

584
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 8: are also state forces and then they're you know independent. Yeah,

585
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 8: so called revolutionary fascists that claim to be opposing the state,

586
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 8: but we're not really.

587
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 7: Well, I think to fast forward a little bit, quite

588
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 7: a bit, Emily, I remember when we first met each other.

589
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 7: Obviously it was probably shortly after Unite the Right happened.

590
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 7: But how did you first get drawn into organizing? Did

591
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 7: you have a long history before that happened, or were

592
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 7: you just part of getting involved around the ramp up

593
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 7: to that now?

594
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 3: I think, you know, compared to the other folks here,

595
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: I'm sort of the summer child of the group, right,

596
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 3: I don't have a super long history in organizing. I

597
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 3: think that, you know, I came to anti fascism before

598
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 3: Unite the Right happened. I work in the tech industry,

599
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 3: and sometimes sort of around the gamer Gate era, I

600
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: started noticing how white supremacist the tech industry had become. Right,

601
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 3: it was sort of this nexus for a lot of

602
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 3: this strongly libertarian, strongly supremacist mindset. It was sort of

603
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 3: the worst of that meritocratic ideal that a lot of

604
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,959
Speaker 3: us had to experience in university and in our workplaces,

605
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 3: and it just seemed like it was getting out of control.

606
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 3: And that was kind of at the same time that

607
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: we were seeing a lot more women come into the

608
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: tech industry, we were starting to see a lot of

609
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 3: changes in the space, and then there was sort of

610
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 3: like this this vacuum left by gamer Gate as that

611
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: all sort of died down, a lot of this sort

612
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 3: of energy needed to go somewhere, and so I started

613
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 3: speaking out against some white supremacist organizing that was happening

614
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 3: at conferences and things like that. And I think the

615
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 3: first wake up call for me happened when some folks

616
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 3: that are linked to Milo Yanapolis put together a list

617
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 3: of SGW Social Justice Warriors and this was journalists and

618
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 3: activists and people who were speaking out and I somehow

619
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 3: made that list. And I realized, after you know, looking

620
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 3: at this and seeing what was going on, that be

621
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 3: political being sort of just somebody with an opinion, wasn't

622
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: you know, there was no way to be that wasn't

623
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 3: a defense against what was coming. And so I just

624
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 3: sort of looked inside and said, well, if this is

625
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: the way it's going to be, like, I'm going to

626
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 3: fight back, I'm gonna I'm gonna figure out what to do.

627
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: I didn't really have a lot of organizing ties, they

628
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 3: didn't really have a network, so like every other person,

629
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 3: I just you know, shouted at Twitter and somehow that worked.

630
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 3: The irony of this all is that all this was

631
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 3: going on, I was starting to do you know, digital activism,

632
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 3: using my my tech skills to try to shine light

633
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 3: on things that were wrong in the federal government and

634
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 3: the Trump administration and things like that, and I really.

635
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 9: Just wanted to step away from that.

636
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 3: I kind of had, like I went to Prague after

637
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 3: Trump was inaugurated.

638
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 9: I wanted to like, you know, clear the air a

639
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 9: little bit.

640
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 3: I didn't like the fact that I was on this

641
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 3: hit list that was put together by people who have

642
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: like a couple of handshakes away from the president's desk.

643
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 3: So I went to Europe. I went to Prague, and

644
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 3: I cleared my head. And when I came back, I said,

645
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm going to just focus on local activism.

646
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 3: I'm going to focus on the issues that are in

647
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 3: my community. I knew that we had things going on

648
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 3: with our local low income housing space, we had a

649
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: lot of you know stuff around the statues that was

650
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 3: coming up in town, and I didn't really expect, like

651
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: it was kind of random that Unite the Right was

652
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 3: you know, destined for Charlottesville, and so all of the work,

653
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 3: all of the organizing that I had started to do

654
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 3: that spring, and that where I guess that winter in

655
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 3: that spring started to pay off, as you know, as

656
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 3: Charlottesville became the target of all of the neo Nazis.

657
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 3: So I think it was sort of I don't want

658
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 3: to say it's it's fortunate, because it's not really the

659
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 3: greatest like it's not a positive thing that that's what happened.

660
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 3: But I guess that I am lucky as I came

661
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 3: to this awakening it was happening you know, before and

662
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 3: not after, and that I was able to use the

663
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 3: network that I was building, the audience I was building

664
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 3: in order to help like back. So yeah, I guess

665
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: that's that's sort of like, I don't know that I

666
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 3: would have been, you know, as much as dedicated as

667
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 3: it was if it wasn't for that very personal sort

668
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 3: of experience. And I look back at that and I'm

669
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: kind of embarrassed by that. But you know, we all

670
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 3: have our own paths.

671
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, And I think, you know, there's something interesting

672
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 7: about that year in advance of the Unite the Right,

673
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 7: where we're different groups were testing the waters a little bit,

674
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 7: and how that was their ability to ramp up in

675
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 7: the area but it was also the anti fascist ability

676
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 7: to ramp up, you know, so talking with Mimi and

677
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 7: other organizers there, like those earlier events, like the earlier

678
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 7: Clan rally that happened like, you know, months earlier, or

679
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,879
Speaker 7: kind of those that early flash mob that Richard Spencer led,

680
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 7: that gave people the opportunity to build up the base.

681
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 7: So how did you kind of shift to focusing on

682
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 7: that first? I guess how did you hear about Unite

683
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 7: the Riots, this big kind of like target event, But

684
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 7: what was the steps along the way there?

685
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one of the things that really that

686
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: I really tried to do that year was to use

687
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 3: the experience I was having traveling to try to understand

688
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 3: the history of movements that were against you know, great

689
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 3: state powers. Right when I was in Prague, I spent

690
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 3: a lot of time reading about and looking into and

691
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 3: walking through the sites of where the Prague Spring took

692
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 3: place and where the Builder Revolution took place, and how

693
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: these groups of people were able to overcome this massive

694
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 3: amount of state violence and still be successful. And when

695
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 3: Richard Spencer first came to town that first flashbob is

696
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: now called Charlottesville one point.

697
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 9: Zero, I was in Berlin at the time.

698
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 3: I woke up to see what was going on, and

699
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 3: it was, you know, I think again just sort of

700
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 3: these you know, the universe coming into alignment. As that

701
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 3: was happening, there's also this big anti Nazi demonstration that

702
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 3: was happening in Berlin. So I took that opportunity to

703
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 3: go and learn about what anti fascists are doing in

704
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 3: other countries and other localities, how they are organizing, how

705
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 3: they spread their message. And so I think that, you know,

706
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 3: as I learned about all of this going on, what

707
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 3: the first thing that I tried to do is just

708
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 3: look around and say, what can we learn from people

709
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 3: who have been here before, who have done this before

710
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 3: and have this in their living memory. And that's what

711
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 3: I tried to take back to Charlottesville. And then, you know,

712
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 3: I think it was after that trip I was in

713
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 3: Berlin in May. I came back for that trip. I

714
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 3: joined in the anti fascist march almost as soon as

715
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: I got back, and that's when we had heard we've

716
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 3: like learned about the two rallies, the July eighth KKK

717
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 3: rally and the August twelfth Unite the Right, and at

718
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 3: that point, like from that moment, it was just like

719
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 3: every making moment of my day was spent organizing for

720
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 3: those rallies.

721
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 7: It's the sort of effect that just circumstance sort of

722
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 7: speeds people's capacity to do it, but that maybe even

723
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 7: maybe capacity is not the right word. They're kind of

724
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 7: understanding of what it takes to do that work. So

725
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 7: I was interviewing a number of the rabbis in the area,

726
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 7: and these were not super political folks. These were not

727
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 7: people like from some activist synagogues who were mainline synagogues,

728
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 7: but they connected with a number of faith leaders from

729
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 7: the historically black churches, both of which were saying, Okay,

730
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 7: we're both going to be targeted here, and there's no

731
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 7: there's no institutions coming to help. Really, there's no one

732
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 7: we can count on here. So they created those collaborative

733
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 7: spaces and really pretty complicated and effective organizing models, having

734
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 7: no experience doing it because of that hyper intense space,

735
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 7: which I think is in a way that's why those

736
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 7: circumstances have such an important effect on it. So how

737
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 7: did you basically planned those couple of weeks in advance?

738
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 7: How are you thinking about it, and what was the

739
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 7: kind of groups you were working with so like networks

740
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 7: that were coming together formal organizations.

741
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there were a bunch of you know,

742
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 3: organizations on the ground that I connected with. Certainly, we

743
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 3: had a local chapter of Surge showing up for racial

744
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 3: justice and they were doing a lot of organizing. And

745
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: there was you know, the Anarchist People of Color APOC.

746
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 3: They were a great group of people that we connected

747
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 3: with and that I connected with. And it also happened

748
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: that I started dating somebody who's also connected to the

749
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 3: local anti fascist scene at the time, so I sort

750
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 3: of brought into all of these circles through that relationship

751
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 3: as well. And so I think that sort of all

752
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 3: of these things combined really made it clear that we

753
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 3: had a small but very knowledgeable base of people that

754
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: could organize. And I think that one of the things

755
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 3: that we did exceptionally well in the lead up is

756
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 3: because we had such a small core of people who

757
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 3: don't who didn't really have you know, a breadth of experience,

758
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 3: you know, in doing this, we were able to compartmentalize

759
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: really well. You know, some people were focusing on, you know,

760
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 3: what are we going to do with the you know,

761
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 3: the clergy collective and how are they going to organize

762
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 3: what is their action going to be? And we had

763
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 3: a media collective and that was where I put most

764
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 3: of my energy. And so I think that we had

765
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 3: these different groups of people that could focus on different

766
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 3: things that helped helped us unblock ourselves from like the grander,

767
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 3: sort of more theoretical, more abstract way to respond. We

768
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 3: just we didn't have the time to debate over tactics,

769
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 3: We didn't have time to debate over the ideology of

770
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 3: anti fascism, what the right thing to do was, or

771
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 3: what the best thing to do was. We really had

772
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 3: to focus our time on what do we have time

773
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 3: to do? What can we achieve given the constraints that

774
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 3: we have, And with those sort of constraints, I think

775
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: that maybe we left some good actions on the table,

776
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 3: But what we came up with I think was fairly effective.

777
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 7: Do you think that it carried those community folks together

778
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 7: through and after the event you feel like those community

779
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 7: ties are still there?

780
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 3: I think some of them are and some of them

781
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 3: are not. There are certainly community times that have broken.

782
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 3: There was a lot of pressure that built up. There

783
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 3: were differences of opinions that we set aside and hoped

784
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 3: to resolve afterwards, and those did not necessarily get resolved

785
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 3: in some cases, some interpersonal issues, interorganizational issues.

786
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 9: I remember at one point there was a.

787
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 3: Decision that was being made, driven by a couple of

788
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 3: the organizing groups, that they would not support anyone that

789
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 3: was going to be armed, and this was a tension

790
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 3: point between those groups and groups like Redneck Revolt that

791
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 3: were coming armed to help support anti fascist rallies, and

792
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 3: that like that is something that still, you know, affected

793
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 3: me pretty well because I was being targeted because of

794
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: how present I was in social media and Twitter and.

795
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 9: Things like that.

796
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 3: I needed to have an armed security detail, and you know,

797
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 3: that freated a lot of a lot of tension.

798
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 9: I didn't have legal like I had legal support pulled

799
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 9: away from me.

800
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 3: I didn't have legal support until until November of that

801
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 3: year when noise of a.

802
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 9: Lawsuit started happening.

803
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 3: So I think that some of those things did create

804
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 3: some tension that led to fracturing of community, but some

805
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 3: things actually really did tie the community back together and

806
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 3: kept it close even as we have drifted apart and

807
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 3: moved into different you know, different cities, different countries, different states, whatever.

808
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 9: I think it's a bit of both you.

809
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 7: Know, there's one of the founding members of Rose Head

810
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 7: Antifa said something that cast stuck with me, which is

811
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 7: that a lot of people will look to anti fascism

812
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 7: as a way to rebuild the left or as to

813
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 7: build this big mass united left. But that's not actually

814
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 7: what's being demanded of the situation. The situation is very

815
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 7: pretty straightforward is to basically destroy this opposition of people.

816
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 7: And how you do that. I mean, you can have

817
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 7: considerations about how they bring in the community and try

818
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 7: and align with other groups, but in the end, there's

819
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 7: other decisions are being made, and so people often get

820
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,479
Speaker 7: disappointed when that ends up being what those projects actually are. Now, Darryl,

821
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 7: you were down there, I unite.

822
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: The right right, correct, that was there. You're everywhere when

823
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: we're there, I try to be. I think one of

824
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: the things about Charlottesville that was really important is that

825
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: we saw it coming, and we had seen it coming months,

826
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 2: probably even years before it even happened. Hell, we saw

827
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: it before in my case, because one of those everywhere

828
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: places I had been was in York, Pennsylvania about twenty

829
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: years prior, where you had somebody from a group called

830
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 2: the World Church Creator. He was he was a local

831
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 2: from World Church to the Creator that invited the leader

832
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: of that group, Matt Hale, to hold the public meeting

833
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 2: at their local library. It was a tactic that that

834
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: particular group had and what that resulted in was about

835
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: three hundred Neo Nazis coming to York, PA, about three

836
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 2: four hundred anti fascists coming out to oppose them. And

837
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: you pretty much saw a parallel of Charlottesville. As I said,

838
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 2: up to an including a this was January twelve, twenty twelve,

839
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: and up to and including a someone driving into a

840
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 2: group of people and no one pad, no one died,

841
00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 2: no one was killed, hurt pretty bad. I think the

842
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 2: only reason why he served two years was because one

843
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: of the people that he hit was a cop. Now

844
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: we fast forward to Charlottesville, and ironically, I saw the

845
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 2: person that organized things in York represented Vanguard America at Charlottesville.

846
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 2: And two days prior, Mike for One People's Project had

847
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: a little bit of a podcast where we basically said

848
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 2: that after everything that was going on in Charlottevielle prior

849
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 2: to Charlottefvield one point oh, Charlottesville two point zero, and

850
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 2: then this whole Unite the Right thing was happening where

851
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 2: it was just making a big production out of having

852
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: this event. We pretty much were resigned to the idea

853
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: that this was going to be the so called rights

854
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: ultimat in the sense that this was going to be

855
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 2: what and everybody, you know, realizing how bad things can get,

856
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: you know it's gonna be bad. We expected it to

857
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 2: be bad. I went to Charlotteville armed, and I think

858
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: really it was one of the first times that I

859
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 2: ever did strap up when I went to one of

860
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: these things. When everything went down, I mean, prior to

861
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 2: everything going down, I was just basically doing my think

862
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: videotaping everyone cracking jokes. I was playing happy Warrior because

863
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 2: you know, you see this all before up to and

864
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 2: including the fighting. The fighting is there. I mean, that

865
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: happens all the time, even that massively, I'm used to it.

866
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: What I wasn't used to was when someone was murdered,

867
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 2: when someone was killed, because that's never happened, and that

868
00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 2: actually freaked me out. It Actually, I actually got really

869
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 2: pissed off when that went down, and I think a

870
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 2: lot of us did because if we recognize this ourselves,

871
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 2: if we who had been on the front lines all

872
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: these years recognized that this was the direction that was

873
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: going in. We also recognized that we had the ability

874
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: to do something about it beforehand. That's one of the

875
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 2: reasons why the ACO you got into a lot of

876
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 2: trouble because they were busy trying to protect the free

877
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 2: speech of everybody in all the neo Nazis there and

878
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 2: insisting that they were going to be in that park

879
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 2: because that's where they wanted to be. And when everything

880
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 2: went down, a lot of people just looked at the

881
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: ACO and said, could you at least recognize us how

882
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 2: dangerous they was trying to make the situation ACOU I

883
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 2: believe will no longer represent groups that insist on holding

884
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 2: armed rallies. I think that was one of the things

885
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 2: that they had said, that they were one of the changeups.

886
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: And even with the whole discussion about their freedom of

887
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 2: speech and saying it was a matter of that freeze speech,

888
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 2: people's attitudes were just like, Okay, fine, that's a given,

889
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 2: But couldn't you let them get their own attorneys? Why

890
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: do you have to keep defending the worst of society

891
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 2: in the name of a free speech that frankly doesn't

892
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: seem to be afforded. The rest of us whenever we

893
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 2: are opposing them. That's the attitude that a lot of

894
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: people had, and it was really the last straw. Charlotteville

895
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 2: was really the last straw, and people really got on

896
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 2: a different footing and dealing with fascism. I was used

897
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: to people trying to pull all the stops and trying

898
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 2: to defend the quote unquote defend the freedom of speech

899
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 2: of not just the fascist in our society, but the

900
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: right in general. So every time I would criticize somebody

901
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: on the right, somebody would try to say things ranging

902
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 2: from we have to respect their freedom of speech or

903
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:21,240
Speaker 2: we should just ignore them, you know. And I hated

904
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: it whenever it was and when it was combined the

905
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 2: best way to fight hate speeches with more speech you

906
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 2: use the more speech, Well, why don't you just ignore them?

907
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 2: That stopped after Charlottesville. All of a sudden, people started saying, Okay,

908
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 2: we need to start doing something about this group. That's

909
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 2: why you saw forty thousand people in Boston protesting against

910
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,720
Speaker 2: the fascist up there when they tried to hold a rally.

911
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 2: Maybe a week or two later, you know, that's why

912
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 2: you saw websites like the Daily Stormer get you know,

913
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 2: yanked out of yanked out of the mainstream, and now

914
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 2: they're sitting on the dark web. That's why you saw

915
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 2: people disowned their family members because they went to this rally.

916
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: We are seeing people being not just James Field's but

917
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 2: others being held legally accountable for what they did in Charlotteville.

918
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 2: And all of those individuals are fascists. All of the

919
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 2: individuals were white supremacists. We realized that we had the

920
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 2: ability to do something, and we started doing something. Unfortunately,

921
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 2: we stopped after Trump lost and people tried to go

922
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 2: back to that whole just ignore them routine, and within

923
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 2: months we got January sixth, and that was when they

924
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 2: tried they ratcheted up again about how we're going to

925
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 2: really curtail the right and all and all that we

926
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 2: but now that just became rhetoric. We're here again because

927
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 2: you're starting to see a lot of the rumblings with

928
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 2: the attacks on the trans community. Basically, conservatives across the

929
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 2: country are primarily trying to essentially do something to the

930
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: rest of the country. I mean, you heard that when

931
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: you go to the SEAPAC meeting, the Conservative Political Action

932
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 2: Conference a couple of months ago. All they did was

933
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 2: talk about things they wanted to do to America, you know,

934
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: And this is what we have been fighting all our lives.

935
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 2: This is what we have been warning about all our lives.

936
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 2: And while anti fascism has essentially become mainstream, there is

937
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 2: still a lot more work that we have to do

938
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 2: in order to basically see all that work therefore, and

939
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:02,720
Speaker 2: that's them pretty much the deal.

940
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, that forty thousand person kind of response to a

941
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 7: Proud Boy rally in Boston just a couple of weeks

942
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 7: after Unite the Right, it was one of the most

943
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 7: common sense kind of moments and it totally dwarfs to them.

944
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 7: I mean, forty thousand people will do whatever they want, right,

945
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 7: forty thousand people will stop any kind of small march,

946
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 7: even a large one. And so the lesson was learned,

947
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 7: then it seemed to be forgotten immediately.

948
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: And they're perfect example of that because that group that

949
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 2: they were protesting went on to become super Happy Fun America.

950
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 2: They're the group that now pushing the straight Pride rallies

951
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 2: and they are really in the forefront of all the

952
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 2: anti trans anti LGBTQ plus activity, and of course some

953
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: of them got arrested in at January sixth, so they

954
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 2: pretty much built up their stock since then, but so

955
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 2: did we, and it's just a matter of using this

956
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 2: Who's going to use their stock more effectively?

957
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was really interesting how you centered this,

958
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 5: like this shift that happened among people who weren't previously

959
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 5: involved in anti fascism from this kind of neoliberal understanding

960
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 5: or that maybe even liberal understanding of the sort of

961
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 5: struggle against fascism being one that could take place in

962
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 5: the open, with free speech being the most important thing

963
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 5: that's at stake, and one that moved like in a

964
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 5: moment right when when I Nazi killed Heather Higher two.

965
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 5: There's a ton more at stake than we thought. And

966
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 5: I think you're right that we've gone back, like right,

967
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 5: we've gone back to the previous understanding, which I think

968
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 5: is what everyone kind of a lot of people. I

969
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 5: guess they felt like they could vote for Joe Biden

970
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 5: and then it was done, like it had disappeared. And

971
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 5: I'd be interested to hear all of your insights, with

972
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 5: all your experience in the movement and like what needs

973
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 5: to be done. I guess to keep that organizing going

974
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 5: as wearing this kind of Nadir or thermidor of like

975
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 5: anti fascist organizing in the US.

976
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 8: If I could offer something from maybe a little bit

977
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 8: of a longer view, you know. Yeah, you know, Darrell

978
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 8: talked about somebody being killed and that never happening before,

979
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 8: but of course it has happened before. And so in

980
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 8: nineteen seventy nine there was a death of the Clan

981
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 8: rally in Greensboro, North Carolina, and people were you know,

982
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 8: attacked and killed by an alliance of the clan and

983
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 8: the Nazis with you know, the ATF had people in

984
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 8: one and the I forget I think the FBI had

985
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 8: people in the other and were instrumental in bringing the

986
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 8: two forces together to attack the anti Clan group and

987
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 8: several people were killed in that. And then the same

988
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 8: thing with.

989
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 10: Aar in.

990
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 8: Las Vegas. Lynn spit new Born, a black tattoo artist,

991
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 8: and Darren Shirsey was actually I think a sailor, active

992
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 8: duty sailor who were in anti racist action in Las

993
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 8: Vegas were executed and killed by neo Nazis there. And

994
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 8: so I think there is a history of that that

995
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 8: we need to be aware of, but also that there's

996
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 8: ups and downs and lulls in both fascist organizing anti

997
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 8: fashion organized. One of the things that happened after the

998
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 8: seventy nine killings is that Ronald Reagan launched his campaign

999
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 8: for president in Philadelphia, Mississippi, the scene of the killing

1000
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 8: of schwar Er Chainyan Goodman, on a state frights platform,

1001
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 8: And while he was president, you know, I brought in

1002
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 8: Pat rob Pat Buchanan and you know, went to Bittberg.

1003
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 8: So there's a long history of the state, you know,

1004
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 8: playing foot seat with these people, and I think we

1005
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 8: should recognize that, but also that there are going to

1006
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 8: be ups and downs in and both fascists and anti

1007
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 8: fascist organizing, and you know, just see that that I

1008
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 8: think the longer range perspective that is important to understand.

1009
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 8: The other thing I did want to take a little

1010
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 8: exception to is the idea that the role of anti

1011
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 8: fascist is to destroy fascists, and I think that I

1012
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 8: don't completely agree with that analysis. I think that it's

1013
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 8: critical that actually anti fascists force to see themselves as

1014
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 8: part of a revolutionary transformation of this society and its entirety,

1015
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 8: and that the ability to actually reach an organizing people

1016
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 8: has to do with making it clear that fascists are

1017
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 8: not proviting an alternative to what's wrong with the society

1018
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 8: although they claim to be and that we are, that

1019
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 8: we're part of liberatory and you know, self determination elements,

1020
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 8: anti colonial elements, you know, support for sovereignty of indigenous people,

1021
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 8: you know, support for LGBTQ people's rights and all those

1022
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 8: things that have a positive aspect of a way to

1023
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 8: reorganize society in a different way than the facts are

1024
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 8: putting forward. And I think that that is critically trying

1025
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 8: to sustain the base and build a base by you know,

1026
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 8: having a positive you know, one of the things that

1027
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 8: I've been doing for many years, I published Turning the Tide,

1028
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 8: which you know, started as a little zine we were

1029
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 8: sending to the other chapters of Anti Racist Action and

1030
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 8: also went to the prisons, and you know, eventually we

1031
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 8: changed the subtitle of that to the Journal of Intercommunal Solidarity.

1032
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 8: In the sense of saying, Okay, it's not just anti

1033
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 8: racist action, it's not just anti fashions, but what are

1034
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 8: we ford You have to have a positive if you

1035
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 8: really want to organize people, you have to have a

1036
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 8: positive sense of what they're struggling for, not just what

1037
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 8: they're struggling against.

1038
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Michael's right, Greensboro did happen. I was really referring

1039
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 2: to in recent time. It wasn't. It was the first

1040
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 2: time for myself to be at a rally and not

1041
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 2: see anyone and see somebody get murdered. But yes, Greensboro,

1042
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 2: November third, I believe, nineteen seventy nine in North Carolina,

1043
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 2: that happened, and all the clan members had actually gotten

1044
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 2: away with it. They did not, They were found, they

1045
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 2: cleared them. Meanwhile, federal court both.

1046
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 8: Their claim was that they were not. They were brought

1047
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 8: up in civil rights charges in federal court and they

1048
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 8: claim they weren't against black people, they were just against communists.

1049
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 2: And that right, there was something that even family members

1050
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 2: when I first heard of. Remember I'm a kid at

1051
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: this time. I'm sitting there listening to family members basically

1052
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 2: laugh about the situation because all they saw were clan

1053
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 2: and communists and they were just had the attitude of

1054
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 2: just let them kill each other. And that was actually

1055
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 2: a line that was said. I don't I don't know

1056
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 2: which family members said it, but that was a line

1057
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 2: that stuck with me since I was a kid and

1058
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 2: at the time I wasn't really politically a stud I

1059
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 2: just that's how I recalled that situation. And with Dan

1060
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 2: and Spit the Las Vegas murders that that is a

1061
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 2: different situation however, because that wasn't the rally they sought

1062
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 2: them out. That was basically on the off time, so

1063
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:12,959
Speaker 2: to speak. Assassination. Yes, and we've seen that before, most

1064
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 2: certainly Luke Kerner from Portland for example. I mean he survived,

1065
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 2: but he's quadriplegic because somebody came after him.

1066
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 3: The German police intercepted one when Adam often came to

1067
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 3: Germany to try to get me.

1068
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 9: I don't know if you know about.

1069
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 2: I think because I have been fairly public.

1070
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 8: I've been docked and tracked down by fascists and several

1071
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 8: different occasions in different places that I lived in. You know,

1072
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 8: we've had armed patrols that you know, at various points

1073
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 8: that you know. It's clearly you know they do try

1074
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 8: to target people as well as you know, attacking mess action.

1075
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 7: Emily, you've gotten it as much as anyone I've ever

1076
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 7: seen in terms of doc saying and harassment and targeted

1077
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 7: attacks and threats like that.

1078
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 9: Wait, who are you referring to? Oh, I think we've

1079
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 9: all gotten it bad. I don't. I don't think that

1080
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 9: there's any there's no competition.

1081
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 4: Here contests who has the most death threads on.

1082
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 3: I did want to just jump back real quick to

1083
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 3: the thing that you were mentioning, Michael about you know, building,

1084
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 3: anti fascism needs to be about building, and I think

1085
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 3: that there's two there's two sides to this. I like

1086
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 3: to talk about, like the breaking work, which is what

1087
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 3: a lot of the street anty fascism is about. Right Like,

1088
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 3: sometimes Nazis come marching into your town and.

1089
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 9: You have to break that.

1090
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 3: You have to stop that, you have to confront that,

1091
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 3: and you have to do things to make it so

1092
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 3: that they don't want to come back into your town

1093
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 3: or any other towns like your town. And I think

1094
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 3: that that's breaking work, you know, the work of cracking

1095
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 3: down Nazis, docsing them, exposing them, whatever, that's breaking work.

1096
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 3: I think that in the last few years has become

1097
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 3: more high profile for various reasons. But I think that

1098
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 3: as we're looking at you know, what you were mentioning there,

1099
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 3: like the anti trans legislation, the rise of the political

1100
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 3: far right in government in power, we do need a

1101
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 3: different solution. I'm not saying that you can't go out

1102
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 3: and like intercept Ron DeSantis's motorcade and like punch them.

1103
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 9: In the face.

1104
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 3: I am saying it will probably end very badly for

1105
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 3: you if you try to do that, right, So, maybe

1106
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 3: what we actually also need is to try to build

1107
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 3: those alternative structures that are not reliant on the state.

1108
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 8: Right.

1109
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 3: You know, when we see these these trans bands coming

1110
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 3: in like it's a horrible thing, But the only thing

1111
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 3: that actually comes through my mind is we have more tools,

1112
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 3: more resources now to create the networks of support than

1113
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 3: we've ever had in history. A lot of our energy

1114
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:01,439
Speaker 3: should be pouring into supporting those networks, supporting that that care,

1115
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 3: supporting that mobility and that freedom of movement, rather than

1116
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 3: just trying to run up against this brick wall that

1117
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 3: is this Republican you know, behemoth that is moving you

1118
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 3: forward into all of our rights. Like we're not going

1119
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 3: to face it down head on. We need to go

1120
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 3: around it in some way. And I think that that

1121
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 3: that going around it is going to require that building,

1122
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 3: that community, that that sort of redevelopment of those alternative structures.

1123
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 3: So I think it's so important to have that as well.

1124
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 4: Big thanks to Shane Burley for setting up this conversation.

1125
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 4: The second half of our talk with Michael Novic, Emily Gorchinski,

1126
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 4: and Daryl Lamont Jenkins will be coming out tomorrow. We'll

1127
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 4: talk a bit more about the modern state of anti

1128
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 4: fascism and what things from the past might help inform

1129
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 4: us in the anti fascist struggle of today. See you

1130
01:04:54,320 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 4: on the other side, Welcome back to it could happen here.

1131
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 4: This is Garrison Davis. This episode is part two of

1132
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 4: a conversation that myself and James Stout had with some

1133
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 4: of the contributors to a book by AK Press titled

1134
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 4: No Passeran. It's an anti fascist anthology that talks about

1135
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 4: the modern anti fascist movement and some of the writer's

1136
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 4: own experiences with anti fascism. So we'll pick up our

1137
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 4: conversation basically right where we left off, talking about the

1138
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 4: modern state of anti fascism, anti fascists and like, you know,

1139
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,440
Speaker 4: the left quote unquote in general right now is kind

1140
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 4: of in a weird place. You know, like a lot

1141
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 4: of people were you know, extremely kind of catalyzed after Charlottesville,

1142
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 4: and that led to a like massive resurgence of anti

1143
01:05:56,200 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 4: racist action, anti fascist action, and I think the quote

1144
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,160
Speaker 4: unquote like Antifa movement of the twenty teens, as like

1145
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 4: was is probably one of the largest like politically radicalizing

1146
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 4: forces for people, especially people my age, people a little

1147
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 4: bit older. It's you know, it's very influential in what

1148
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 4: the kind of the modern like anarchists or you know,

1149
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 4: left you know scene is, and there's like there's a

1150
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 4: lot of positive parts of that. There's also you know,

1151
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 4: there's some some drawbacks for that as well. Kind of

1152
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 4: one one kind of recurring thing is that like when

1153
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 4: your only tool is a hammer, then everything is a nail,

1154
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 4: and there's certain elements of of like and and this

1155
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 4: like antifa notion or like people who like grew up

1156
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 4: with with like anti fascists and being their primary kind

1157
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 4: of mode of practice. Then it can be very easily

1158
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 4: turned horizontally. But you know, it's after after j six,

1159
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 4: after after Biinden's been inaugurated, we have had this very

1160
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 4: weird lull, but there's still been you know a lot

1161
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 4: of fascist mobilization. But this is the sort of response

1162
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 4: to it that you know, was very normalized in twenty

1163
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 4: eighteen has has definitely shifted. We we've seen, like, you know,

1164
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 4: the one thing that's been new is like you, like

1165
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 4: you mentioned regarding you know, Charlotte Speld there's a lot

1166
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:18,120
Speaker 4: of like debate around if people should show up armed.

1167
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:20,680
Speaker 4: We now have like the Drag Time Story Hour kind

1168
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 4: of defenses, like armed defenses with John Brown gun clubs

1169
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 4: becoming more popular. But you know, one of the kind

1170
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 4: of recurring things that everyone's kind of been talking about it.

1171
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 4: I've been hearing like there's so many parallels to for

1172
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 4: what we've been going through the past like five ten years,

1173
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 4: to other kind of things in the past. Like while

1174
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,919
Speaker 4: all of the John Brown Anti Clan Committee stuff, there's

1175
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 4: just a lot of cyclical notions. I mean, even I'm

1176
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 4: here in Atlanta right now, there's this Rico grand jury indictment.

1177
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 4: Everyone's thinking about like green scare stuff. Even even John

1178
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 4: Brown Anti Clan Committee did grand jury resistance back in

1179
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 4: like the eighties. Like it's this this, These things have

1180
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 4: happened before. And I think one thing that you know,

1181
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 4: the quote unquote laughter anti fascists sometimes they're kind of

1182
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 4: bad at is actually passing down the history. There's this

1183
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 4: tendency that when people get involved, we're kind of forced

1184
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 4: to reinvent the wheel every time but it's like completely

1185
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:17,560
Speaker 4: like unnecessary, but we tend to just keep trying the

1186
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 4: same things over and over again. So there's even people

1187
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 4: younger than me who weren't even old enough to get

1188
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 4: involved in anti fascist stuff in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen,

1189
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 4: and they're now kind of growing up. There's still this

1190
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 4: fascist mobilization. You know, Liberals are kind of passive because

1191
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 4: they have their guy in the White House, and we're

1192
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 4: going to be reaching a really interesting tipping point in

1193
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four. So for these types of people who

1194
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 4: are like either wanting to get involved or who are

1195
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 4: like just just starting to realize that, hey, maybe we

1196
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 4: should actually do something about all this stuff, especially as

1197
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 4: you know, trans existence is one of the main things

1198
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 4: under attack right now. What is kind of some like

1199
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 4: lessons from the passage you would like to be passed

1200
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 4: down to people.

1201
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 8: A couple of things that come to mind. I was

1202
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,680
Speaker 8: reminded because James is in San Diego about you know,

1203
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 8: one of the things we haven't talked about at all

1204
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,720
Speaker 8: is the border, and that's been a recurrent theme of

1205
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 8: the right and of the state, both in terms of

1206
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:15,120
Speaker 8: building you know, a repressive apparatus so going back to

1207
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 8: you know, the early days of People Against Racist Terror,

1208
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 8: which is the group that I had in l A

1209
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 8: after John brand Ask and Anti Clan Committe left. One

1210
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 8: of the first actions we did was there was something

1211
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 8: called the American Spring at the Mexican Border, which was

1212
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 8: a neo fascist element. It kind of grew out of

1213
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:39,280
Speaker 8: the previous Clan border Watch that David Duka done and

1214
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 8: they were trying to you know, build up a base

1215
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 8: of support for you know, very you know, close the borders.

1216
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:49,679
Speaker 8: And so we did bring people from la and joined

1217
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 8: up with San Diego. And actually at one of those

1218
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 8: rallies somebody drove a car at and nearly hit someone

1219
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 8: from the the you know, the anti fascist forces. So

1220
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 8: I think that's an important piece of we should be

1221
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 8: thinking about the other thing in terms of killings and shootings.

1222
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 8: You know, somebody from the Red Nation was just shot

1223
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 8: in Albuquerque, and you know, I think that again, the

1224
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 8: question of Indigenous sovereignty and Indigenous rights is a leading

1225
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 8: edge of struggle. A lot of the struggles around missing

1226
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 8: and murdered Indigenous women have to do with the you know,

1227
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 8: fossil fuel industry and in the back in other places

1228
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:29,680
Speaker 8: where you know, women have disappeared and been killed by

1229
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:34,200
Speaker 8: you know, people in the fossil fuel industry basically, And

1230
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 8: I think bringing all that to bear is really critical

1231
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 8: to have the breadth of consciousness and the understanding that

1232
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:44,480
Speaker 8: there is a global struggle that's going on and indigenous

1233
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 8: people in particular are part of that, about the survival

1234
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 8: of humanity and of the planet in a sense. And

1235
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 8: to situate anti fascist struggle in that context, I think

1236
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,759
Speaker 8: is really really important and relates to who are our allies,

1237
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:59,559
Speaker 8: who are leadership, where is the struggle being led by?

1238
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 8: And so you know, one of the things we uncovered

1239
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:05,639
Speaker 8: here in La is that people involved in the militia

1240
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 8: movement started their operations by supporting Christian militias in Guatemala

1241
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:14,599
Speaker 8: and the Philippines, attacking left forces in those countries and

1242
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 8: indigenous forces in those countries. And you know, having that

1243
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:20,920
Speaker 8: global perspective, I think that's one of the really great

1244
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 8: strengths of the book. By the way, that I thought

1245
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:26,719
Speaker 8: was really amazing, as the coverage of anti fascist movements

1246
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:29,640
Speaker 8: all around the world, and you know, the anti fascists

1247
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 8: in India and so on, and having that sense that

1248
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 8: it's not just you know, people of European descent or

1249
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 8: you know, African Americans in the United States who are

1250
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:40,679
Speaker 8: post to fascism.

1251
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 2: But there's a.

1252
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 8: Very very broad, you know, movement around the world and

1253
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 8: inside this country of people who are experiencing fascism literally

1254
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 8: all the time that you know, gives a strength to

1255
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 8: anti fascism.

1256
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:59,679
Speaker 3: There is an exceptionalism that exists even in the left.

1257
01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 3: American exceptionalism that exists even in the American left when

1258
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 3: it comes to how bad things are, how good we

1259
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 3: are at organizing or whatever. And I think that a

1260
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:12,680
Speaker 3: lot of the time is one of the things that

1261
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 3: we often forget is that we are not the only

1262
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 3: people going through this, both in time and space. Right

1263
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 3: there's movements that are going on elsewhere that are facing

1264
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 3: a much deeper sort of repression than what we see

1265
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 3: in the United States, and they are still finding ways

1266
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:35,200
Speaker 3: to organize. I like to do you know when we

1267
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 3: talk about like the attack on queer rights, and you.

1268
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:38,960
Speaker 9: Know, things like.

1269
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 3: All of these hateful laws that are being passed, which

1270
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 3: will almost certainly be thrown out in the courts, and

1271
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,719
Speaker 3: that's you know, it's going to be a couple of years.

1272
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 3: But you know, people are saying, well, this is going

1273
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 3: to make Pride illegal, and this is you know, this

1274
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:57,200
Speaker 3: is the worst thing. This is like, you know, a

1275
01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:59,360
Speaker 3: step towards genocide and all of that stuff. And I

1276
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 3: think it's actually important for us to put things in perspective.

1277
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 3: Istanbul has a much stricter set of restrictions on we

1278
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 3: are organizing quirget demonstrations. Pride happens every year. Pride is

1279
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 3: attacked by cops every year. They still continue to persist.

1280
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:19,639
Speaker 9: What can we learn as Americans from that movement.

1281
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 3: I think that's a really important thing for the American

1282
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 3: anti fascist scene to really start to think around and

1283
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 3: try to take this moment. As you mentioned, there's a

1284
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 3: lull that is happening now, both in the organizing and

1285
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 3: in the popular support. We need to take that moment

1286
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 3: to reflect on what is working, what is not, to

1287
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:45,760
Speaker 3: regroup and to find new approaches, new tactics. This is

1288
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:48,040
Speaker 3: something that I write about in the chapter I wrote

1289
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 3: on trans anti fascism. Right, we need to, like, we

1290
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 3: need to absolutely bring in historical contexts and comparative analysis

1291
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:01,679
Speaker 3: into our into into what we're doing. But that does

1292
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:03,720
Speaker 3: not mean that we need to say that everything is

1293
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 3: literally the Holocaust. What we need to do is look

1294
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,120
Speaker 3: at what are the factors, what are the causes, what

1295
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 3: are the root causes of the things that are happening,

1296
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,519
Speaker 3: and how can we strategically organize to disrupt and to

1297
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 3: bypass those forces. So I think it's really important to

1298
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,640
Speaker 3: have that multifaceted perspective.

1299
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 2: I think that Emily is touched on something that is

1300
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,639
Speaker 2: really important. When we say that the police are are

1301
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 2: attacking pride events, pride marches and such, that suggests that

1302
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 2: somebody initiated something on our side. That speaks to what

1303
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 2: it is we have to do. We have to initiate

1304
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 2: certain actions. We cannot keep waiting for the fashions. We

1305
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,519
Speaker 2: can't keep waiting, we can't keep being reactive. We do

1306
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:59,280
Speaker 2: have to go on the offense. I mean, that's one

1307
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:04,599
Speaker 2: of the reasons myself and me and others have been

1308
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 2: so successful. It is because we don't wait for the

1309
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 2: fascists to do something. We do something to them before

1310
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:17,160
Speaker 2: they make a move. And we know when to do

1311
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 2: it because they basically send us signals out courtesy of

1312
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 2: their free speech, that they want to do something, and

1313
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:28,120
Speaker 2: we just take those cues and say, okay, here's how

1314
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:30,840
Speaker 2: we are going to go forward. We're going to let

1315
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 2: people know about you. We're going to let people know

1316
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:36,800
Speaker 2: how to keep you at bay. I mean, that's the

1317
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:39,720
Speaker 2: kinds of things that we need to do. We need

1318
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:43,960
Speaker 2: to just basically say we are establishing this institution, we

1319
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:48,439
Speaker 2: are establishing the security around this institution, and you are

1320
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:52,200
Speaker 2: not going to be able to breach this institution. The

1321
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 2: other thing that we do need to do in that

1322
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:58,680
Speaker 2: while we build that is also make it clear to

1323
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,000
Speaker 2: some of those that lack of a better term, or

1324
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 2: wishy washy on the subject, are more mainstreamers and liberals

1325
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 2: and such who are quick to defend the fashionsts that

1326
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 2: they say they don't believe in before they defend us.

1327
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:16,679
Speaker 2: We gotta start telling them to chill, and we gotta

1328
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 2: start telling them to pick a side and stop getting

1329
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:23,760
Speaker 2: in everybody's way. Stop being a bulwark because you're too

1330
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 2: cowardly to put up this fight or you're too interested

1331
01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:33,240
Speaker 2: in protecting your other interests as opposed to being concerned

1332
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 2: about what's coming down the pike. The book starts off

1333
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 2: with a discussion about a three way fight. We definitely

1334
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 2: are in one.

1335
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:45,920
Speaker 4: Do you want to explain what a three way fight is.

1336
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 2: Well three way fight is not only you're dealing with

1337
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:53,799
Speaker 2: the obvious enemy, so to speak, but you're also dealing

1338
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:56,360
Speaker 2: with those that are hesitant to do something about that

1339
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 2: enemy to the point that they will fight you more.

1340
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:03,519
Speaker 2: To the point that they will fight you more. And frankly,

1341
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:08,400
Speaker 2: it's frustrating. It is a frustrating thing. But it is there,

1342
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:12,680
Speaker 2: and it has been there through our history, and I

1343
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:15,599
Speaker 2: mean even the mo I mean, I'm surprised I'm actually

1344
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:18,840
Speaker 2: referencing a Mel Gibson movie, but even the movie Brave

1345
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 2: Heart brought that up. Now, I don't think that we

1346
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:26,320
Speaker 2: need to smack people upside their head with a mace,

1347
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,200
Speaker 2: but by the same token, we do have to let

1348
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:31,679
Speaker 2: people know that we do have to be a little

1349
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:35,880
Speaker 2: bit more I should say, assertive in our efforts as

1350
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:40,920
Speaker 2: we go forward and basically try to route this particular

1351
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:45,640
Speaker 2: fascist element, and an assertive means blowing past those that

1352
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:48,679
Speaker 2: are supposed to be on our side. I mean, because

1353
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 2: I was thinking about the fact that this is now

1354
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 2: the twelfth anniversary of Occupy Right, and Occupy was trying

1355
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:02,559
Speaker 2: to do that. Occupy it's still trying to do that.

1356
01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:06,120
Speaker 2: In many respects. The folks that were in Occupy, but

1357
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:10,559
Speaker 2: some of the folks, because what you also saw at

1358
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:12,840
Speaker 2: Occupy were a lot of folks who thought that they

1359
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:16,240
Speaker 2: will be able to take advantage of the progress that

1360
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,519
Speaker 2: we were making in this effort and turned it into

1361
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:23,559
Speaker 2: a more fascist thing. I mean, I was just looking

1362
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:26,080
Speaker 2: at a lot of the characters that come out of

1363
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:30,439
Speaker 2: Occupy that went to the fascist side, and when you

1364
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 2: look at who they are, you realize that you had

1365
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of opportunities that were within our ranks

1366
01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 2: that were looking for something totally different than what the

1367
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 2: rest of us. We were looking out for each other

1368
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 2: and Occupy. The true people that were dealing with Occupy

1369
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 2: Wall Street were looking out for each other in our communities.

1370
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:51,439
Speaker 2: These guys just thought, hey, perfect opportunity to just say

1371
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 2: that we're one with them and drag them over here

1372
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 2: to the right. That's strasserism, that straight up stratsirism. But

1373
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 2: when you look at it even further, it's just a

1374
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:04,240
Speaker 2: bunch of people that only cared about themselves ultimately. And

1375
01:19:04,280 --> 01:19:07,519
Speaker 2: we've seen it after year after year in this fight.

1376
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:11,560
Speaker 2: So I think that it's going to be very important

1377
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:16,439
Speaker 2: to build and protect our institutions and recognize what it

1378
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:20,559
Speaker 2: is we are protecting them from. And it's not hard.

1379
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:23,680
Speaker 2: We have shown over and over and over again that

1380
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:27,439
Speaker 2: we are prepared to weigh that kind of war. We

1381
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 2: just have to basically recognize it within ourselves when we

1382
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:33,840
Speaker 2: have to do it. And that's just. And do not

1383
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:38,040
Speaker 2: wait for people to die. I mean, Heather Hire did

1384
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:41,719
Speaker 2: not have to die. No one in January sixth, regardless

1385
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:44,479
Speaker 2: of how I feel about any of them had to die.

1386
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 2: That should not be the thing that we should respond to.

1387
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 2: We already know what to do, we just need to

1388
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:51,639
Speaker 2: do it.

1389
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:55,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it picked up on a lot of

1390
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 7: what everyone said, especially Michael. I think part of what

1391
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 7: gets out here is having a place for like broad

1392
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:05,040
Speaker 7: social movements where they're able to interact with one another

1393
01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 7: and support one another. So anti fascist movements as a

1394
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 7: defensive movement have often been essential to actually operating other

1395
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:14,519
Speaker 7: kinds of organizing, you know. So like when I was

1396
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:17,760
Speaker 7: working with houseless encampments and we were doing food not

1397
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:20,240
Speaker 7: bombs and stuff. You get attacked by far right groups,

1398
01:20:20,240 --> 01:20:22,080
Speaker 7: you had to have a defense development. There was no

1399
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:22,880
Speaker 7: other choice.

1400
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 2: Same thing.

1401
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:25,240
Speaker 7: I've been at union offices that were attacked by the

1402
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:27,559
Speaker 7: far right, you have to have that defensi development. And

1403
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:30,960
Speaker 7: then on the same token, we're talking about mass actions

1404
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:35,639
Speaker 7: against far right demonstrations. It requires people that are coming

1405
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:38,200
Speaker 7: probably from all kinds of political backgrounds, but they've gotten

1406
01:20:38,240 --> 01:20:41,760
Speaker 7: involved from different kinds of practices. We're having mutual aid

1407
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:45,800
Speaker 7: networks that support people getting there, sustaining themselves there, medical care,

1408
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:49,640
Speaker 7: all kinds of component pieces. So those things require that

1409
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:52,160
Speaker 7: kind of back and forth. And I think that also

1410
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,720
Speaker 7: begs to how do you get people in. We're talking

1411
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 7: about a lot of problems with people on like the

1412
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 7: moderate left not kind of taking the next steps, those

1413
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:03,600
Speaker 7: defensive steps that are necessary, but also how do we

1414
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 7: find a pathway for them in? You know, if we're

1415
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 7: talking about mass participation in something, if we're talking about

1416
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:12,280
Speaker 7: like a revolutionary movement with huge masses of people, we

1417
01:21:12,400 --> 01:21:14,519
Speaker 7: have to figure out what those pathways for people are

1418
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 7: and giving them access to them. And I think also

1419
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:21,080
Speaker 7: moving past what we've thought of as the far right before.

1420
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 7: I mean, people have talked about this a little bit.

1421
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 7: You know, a lot of what we think of as

1422
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:29,080
Speaker 7: recent anti fascism was built around finding the alt right

1423
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:32,519
Speaker 7: and other kind of recent short term projects and what

1424
01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 7: we have now is just radically different, just like it

1425
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 7: will be in a few years, and so having a

1426
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 7: deep kind of intersexual understanding of how that works, because

1427
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:42,519
Speaker 7: when you do that, you have that kind of natural

1428
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:45,080
Speaker 7: understanding of where that's going to show up again, how

1429
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:47,799
Speaker 7: it might interact with different communities, and what rule places

1430
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:49,720
Speaker 7: for you, How are you able to interact with it

1431
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:51,839
Speaker 7: as this person coming into a social movement.

1432
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:54,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, especially considering something I've been kind of

1433
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 4: watching and we're seeing a little bit of it with

1434
01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:00,240
Speaker 4: this with this set of Republican primaries, is that we

1435
01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 4: have an incoming new wave of kind of gen z

1436
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:07,320
Speaker 4: and millennial Republicans who grew up in the alt right

1437
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 4: era who are now bringing that sort of like alt

1438
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:14,280
Speaker 4: right street politics to electoralism, and how that's going to

1439
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:16,640
Speaker 4: be a posed it's going to be. You know, I

1440
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 4: was just talking about before how we shouldn't just try

1441
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:21,280
Speaker 4: to like retread the same ground over and over and

1442
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 4: without learning the histories from the past. But like this,

1443
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:25,320
Speaker 4: for a lot of people who have just been doing

1444
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 4: like street politics the past few years, figuring out how

1445
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 4: they're going to oppose like fascism in this much more

1446
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:34,840
Speaker 4: like electoral setting. It's going to be an interesting shift because, yeah,

1447
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:37,679
Speaker 4: you can like punch Richard Spencer and no one really

1448
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:41,280
Speaker 4: cares too much. But if you punch someone like you know, DeSantis,

1449
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 4: that is going to be a different thing to kind

1450
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:47,840
Speaker 4: of sort through. And so, yeah, I think that is

1451
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 4: kind of one of these shifts that you know, maybe

1452
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 4: maybe coming up here soon and whatever kind of evolves

1453
01:22:54,040 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 4: on the anti fascist side to kind of meet that

1454
01:22:56,479 --> 01:22:58,720
Speaker 4: is going to be interesting to watch and take part in.

1455
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:01,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think that, you know, the part of the

1456
01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:05,400
Speaker 8: ARA analysis has always been that fascism is built from

1457
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:07,479
Speaker 8: above end below, and I think we really have to

1458
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 8: understand that that the fascism is fascism is not only

1459
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 8: the factor of the street politics and the people who

1460
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:17,240
Speaker 8: declare themselves to be fascist, but that there are fascist

1461
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:19,600
Speaker 8: elements in the structure of this society, and there are

1462
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:23,599
Speaker 8: fascist elements in power in this government right now. And

1463
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:26,120
Speaker 8: you know, the fascism has come to power in quite

1464
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:29,840
Speaker 8: a number of you know, in Italy, neo fascists as

1465
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 8: the prime Minister in you know, in the United States,

1466
01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:38,720
Speaker 8: Matt Gates, and that element has a clear you know,

1467
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 8: they're in power within the Republican Party they control the

1468
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:46,280
Speaker 8: House representatives in a way, and I think that that's

1469
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:50,760
Speaker 8: a critical understanding. But also it speaks to the fact

1470
01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:54,479
Speaker 8: that fascist practices and elements exist in a lot of

1471
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:56,760
Speaker 8: different places. And I think one of the things I've

1472
01:23:56,760 --> 01:24:00,160
Speaker 8: always tried to put out to people is that this

1473
01:24:00,320 --> 01:24:03,680
Speaker 8: is an aspect of the nature of imperialism, central colonialism,

1474
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:07,000
Speaker 8: and I want to emphasize that because I think there's

1475
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:10,760
Speaker 8: a fractal character to what we're dealing with or holographic,

1476
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:13,080
Speaker 8: you know, there's any element of this society that you

1477
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 8: attempt to deal with, you're actually facing the entirety of

1478
01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:21,040
Speaker 8: imperialism and fascism there. So if you look at the

1479
01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:23,919
Speaker 8: labor movement right now, labor is a big resurgence, particularly

1480
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:26,479
Speaker 8: here in southern California. There have just been you know,

1481
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:29,040
Speaker 8: the hotel workers and restaurant works on strike, the screen

1482
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 8: actors on strike, the writers go on strike, and the

1483
01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:36,799
Speaker 8: fact that there, you know, there is a fascist element

1484
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:41,000
Speaker 8: to the employment structure and trying to organize it. If

1485
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 8: you look what happened with the Amazon union, or just

1486
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:47,360
Speaker 8: the fact that again going back in history, you know,

1487
01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:53,480
Speaker 8: the Taft Hartley Act was written to criminalize you know, communists,

1488
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:57,400
Speaker 8: and also solidarity with the labor movement and outlaw, you know,

1489
01:24:57,479 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 8: solidarity strikes and that's fascist, that is you have to

1490
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:04,040
Speaker 8: understand that. And you know, one of the reasons that

1491
01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:06,720
Speaker 8: the Puerto Rican Dependence Movement attack Congress was that the

1492
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:11,000
Speaker 8: US attempted to put the taft Tartly Act into practice

1493
01:25:11,040 --> 01:25:15,600
Speaker 8: against the labor in Puerto Rico, and the Nationalist Party said, no,

1494
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:19,200
Speaker 8: we're going to counterattack. So I think that that's a

1495
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:22,879
Speaker 8: really critical understanding. We started out talking about the prisons,

1496
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:26,880
Speaker 8: and you know, there's nothing more fascists's in prison. And

1497
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:28,599
Speaker 8: one of the things they do in prison is they

1498
01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:32,080
Speaker 8: use privilege to try to divide the prisoners, you know,

1499
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:34,559
Speaker 8: and we haven't talked much about privilege and how it

1500
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:37,000
Speaker 8: operates in the society, but you know, it's a key

1501
01:25:37,040 --> 01:25:41,799
Speaker 8: factor in how people are are organized by the system

1502
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:49,000
Speaker 8: to collaborate to you know, get along by going along

1503
01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 8: and so. But even inside the prisons we've seen here

1504
01:25:53,120 --> 01:25:57,639
Speaker 8: in California and elsewhere, you know, the Alabama, Georgia, elsewhere,

1505
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 8: prisoners are able to organize under conditions of fascism that

1506
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:04,320
Speaker 8: exist in the prisons. They have ways to communicate with

1507
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:07,360
Speaker 8: each other they've built into racial solidarity in many cases.

1508
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:10,880
Speaker 8: So I think those are examples of anti fascism that

1509
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:13,800
Speaker 8: we need to embrace and understand the same way that

1510
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:18,080
Speaker 8: people organ you know, if you're organizing a union, you're

1511
01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:22,040
Speaker 8: operating on a certain level clandestinely, because if you're open

1512
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:24,880
Speaker 8: about it, you're going to get fired, and they're going

1513
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:27,000
Speaker 8: to retaliate and they're going to Anybody you talk to

1514
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 8: is going to get fired. So we need to have

1515
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:32,440
Speaker 8: an understanding of ways to organize that are not always

1516
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:35,000
Speaker 8: I'm not talking about arms struggle, but I'm saying that

1517
01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:37,880
Speaker 8: people have to organize below the radar when you're dealing

1518
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:41,080
Speaker 8: with fascism, especially when it's in power, and fascism isn't power,

1519
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:43,040
Speaker 8: and a lot of sectors of the society right now

1520
01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:46,080
Speaker 8: and people are dealing with it, as Emily said about

1521
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:51,400
Speaker 8: you know, Istanbul and Pride marches, you know, so you know,

1522
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 8: I think we need to make those connections into the

1523
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:57,400
Speaker 8: labor movement, into the prison movement, into the you know,

1524
01:26:57,520 --> 01:27:01,719
Speaker 8: formally incarcerated people's movement, you know, the solidarity with indigenous

1525
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,599
Speaker 8: druggers are going on against fascist the colonization of their

1526
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:09,559
Speaker 8: lands and struggles, and I think that if we understand

1527
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:12,439
Speaker 8: that that's an aspect of anti fascism, I think it

1528
01:27:12,479 --> 01:27:15,240
Speaker 8: actually strengthens what we're engaged in.

1529
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:19,719
Speaker 5: Definitely. I think it's also important just to, like, I guess,

1530
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:22,719
Speaker 5: if people are thinking about their organizing, and it's always

1531
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:25,200
Speaker 5: important to hear from those struggles as well as you know,

1532
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:27,559
Speaker 5: to to include them, but to really include them in

1533
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:31,559
Speaker 5: a sense of like listening and learning from rather than

1534
01:27:31,600 --> 01:27:34,599
Speaker 5: sort of telling and saying this is like a cis

1535
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:38,599
Speaker 5: hat white guy. It's definitely a thing that I've perceived

1536
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:40,560
Speaker 5: in the movement in the last few years is a

1537
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:43,639
Speaker 5: desire to speak a little more and listen a little less.

1538
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:46,479
Speaker 5: And one thing I enjoyed about your book is that

1539
01:27:46,520 --> 01:27:51,719
Speaker 5: when we talk about fascism, and we'd already mentioned Michael's

1540
01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:54,280
Speaker 5: mentioned the border as a sort of a location for

1541
01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:57,960
Speaker 5: fascist experiments within the United States, which I think it's

1542
01:27:58,120 --> 01:28:00,760
Speaker 5: very hard to argue against living on the border. If

1543
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:04,080
Speaker 5: you protested in twenty twenty against police violence, you were

1544
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:06,679
Speaker 5: surveiled using technology that has been used for years where

1545
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:11,080
Speaker 5: I live, against migrants and citizens who live here. But

1546
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 5: I really liked your perspective on looking at global fascisms,

1547
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:20,439
Speaker 5: because fascism is it's very easy to spend too much

1548
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:23,920
Speaker 5: time defining fascism, especially as anti fascists, right, Like, it's

1549
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:26,439
Speaker 5: extremely easy to be like, it's not fascism unless it

1550
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:28,720
Speaker 5: comes from the Fascia region of Italy, kind of like

1551
01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:34,559
Speaker 5: this like cheese or champagne definition of fascism. But like

1552
01:28:34,760 --> 01:28:37,320
Speaker 5: they've focused on, for instance, fascism in India, Like if

1553
01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:38,759
Speaker 5: I go to the border, I was at the border

1554
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:42,360
Speaker 5: a couple of days ago, right that there are tons

1555
01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:45,320
Speaker 5: of Punjabi Sikh people camped out in the desert right

1556
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:47,360
Speaker 5: now because border patroller are holding them in an open

1557
01:28:47,400 --> 01:28:51,200
Speaker 5: air concentration camp, essentially because of what's happening in India

1558
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:54,320
Speaker 5: that they turn up here, right and as well as

1559
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:58,760
Speaker 5: bringing sort of migrant detention resistance and migrant mutual aid

1560
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:01,160
Speaker 5: and twenty fascism. I think it's in n AETI fascists also,

1561
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:06,680
Speaker 5: like we can take concrete action to protect and like

1562
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,479
Speaker 5: to care for victim survivors of fascisms. I guess people

1563
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:15,040
Speaker 5: who fled fascism, and like, when I think about what

1564
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:17,639
Speaker 5: my backgrounds in the study of the Spanish Civil War,

1565
01:29:17,720 --> 01:29:21,360
Speaker 5: right that that's what my PhD is about the thing

1566
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:26,600
Speaker 5: that radicalized young often Jewish men growing up in the

1567
01:29:26,600 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 5: same part of New York that you did, was often

1568
01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:35,840
Speaker 5: seeing people fleeing fascism coming to their communities and then

1569
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:39,120
Speaker 5: being like, we can't allow that not only to not

1570
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:42,519
Speaker 5: happen here, but the crucial step that like, we can't

1571
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:46,360
Speaker 5: allow that to happen anywhere, and that being what kind

1572
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:50,600
Speaker 5: of motivated them to travel to Spain, and many of

1573
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:52,720
Speaker 5: many of them died fighting in the Spanish Civil War, Right.

1574
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:55,400
Speaker 5: But I think we could do better to do that

1575
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:59,240
Speaker 5: as well. Like now, I know not all of us

1576
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 5: are living in the To States right now, but sometimes,

1577
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:08,040
Speaker 5: like Emily said, American anti fascism can be very exceptionalist

1578
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:10,200
Speaker 5: or whatever. But I think that we have so much

1579
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:14,759
Speaker 5: to learn from anti fascists in my sort of formative

1580
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 5: experiences who were in Catalonia, in Spain, but also in India,

1581
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:23,679
Speaker 5: also in Russia, right, And I wonder if anyone could

1582
01:30:23,720 --> 01:30:27,719
Speaker 5: shell like sort of I guess concrete ways that people

1583
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:32,720
Speaker 5: listening can help to expand that solidarity into an international

1584
01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:33,560
Speaker 5: anti fascism.

1585
01:30:34,400 --> 01:30:36,880
Speaker 7: I think there's an interesting example, and it gets to

1586
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:40,759
Speaker 7: what Michael was stressing about fascism being kind of colonial

1587
01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:42,920
Speaker 7: rule brought back to homeland.

1588
01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:43,719
Speaker 11: You know.

1589
01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:47,599
Speaker 7: A lot of the methods that were used against kind

1590
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:51,160
Speaker 7: of mid century anti fascist organizers, for example, the Anti

1591
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:55,000
Speaker 7: Nazi League or later anti fascist action in the UK.

1592
01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 7: We're basically test run against Irish Republicans in Northern Ireland, right,

1593
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:03,280
Speaker 7: So those uprisings, different kind of methods of crowd control,

1594
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:07,439
Speaker 7: use of quote unquote non lethal weapons, different kinds of

1595
01:31:07,479 --> 01:31:10,479
Speaker 7: forms of incarceration, and then used later against the Anti

1596
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:13,000
Speaker 7: Nazi League. So there's sort of a step. They're taking

1597
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:15,960
Speaker 7: this colonial rule back home that's the testing ground, and

1598
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:19,559
Speaker 7: then using it domestically. And I think what that actually

1599
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:23,080
Speaker 7: does is create a certain bridge between two communities that

1600
01:31:23,120 --> 01:31:25,559
Speaker 7: there's now a point of connection where they can relate.

1601
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:27,760
Speaker 7: That doesn't mean they're in the same situation, right, Like

1602
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:30,439
Speaker 7: it doesn't mean that like someone protesting in the United

1603
01:31:30,439 --> 01:31:32,920
Speaker 7: States is in the same situation as someone in to

1604
01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:36,160
Speaker 7: call in my space. But having that shared system that

1605
01:31:36,200 --> 01:31:39,639
Speaker 7: actually binds us together in that sense of solidarity, that's

1606
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:42,160
Speaker 7: a new model of safety, that's a new model of community.

1607
01:31:42,240 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 7: So it's now seeing my strength in that alignment with

1608
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:49,640
Speaker 7: someone else, So connecting with communities internationally, learning from what

1609
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:53,040
Speaker 7: they're doing, but making real connections between them, ones that

1610
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:56,559
Speaker 7: have a real sense of weight between them, where someone's

1611
01:31:56,600 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 7: success in international social movement has real effect on your

1612
01:32:00,080 --> 01:32:02,800
Speaker 7: lives and back and forth. I think committing to that

1613
01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:05,680
Speaker 7: is actually the kind of biggest thing we can do

1614
01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:09,759
Speaker 7: that creates an international movement and it makes everyone stronger,

1615
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:10,719
Speaker 7: everyone more effective.

1616
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:12,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1617
01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:15,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think one of the strengths of anti racist

1618
01:32:15,560 --> 01:32:18,360
Speaker 8: action was that it was always an international organization. It

1619
01:32:18,479 --> 01:32:20,600
Speaker 8: was US and Canada, and there were a lot of

1620
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 8: chapters in Canada, and that really helped break some of

1621
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:29,040
Speaker 8: the US exceptionalism understanding. But he also had corresponding organizations.

1622
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:34,200
Speaker 8: It was Resistancia, Redskin in Colombia, in Bogaton, and a

1623
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:37,400
Speaker 8: couple of like Colleie. I think, and you know, I

1624
01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:40,519
Speaker 8: think that that really is an important element. And again

1625
01:32:40,560 --> 01:32:42,320
Speaker 8: what I said is that we need to understand that,

1626
01:32:42,760 --> 01:32:46,679
Speaker 8: you know, similar to what Lennon said about the Russian Empire,

1627
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:49,160
Speaker 8: that is the prison house of nations, that there are

1628
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:51,720
Speaker 8: captive nations inside the borders of the United States, and

1629
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:56,240
Speaker 8: that you know, indigenous sovereignty and you know Puerto Rican independence,

1630
01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:59,200
Speaker 8: and you know Hawaiian sovereignty and a lot of other issues.

1631
01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:02,600
Speaker 8: And I think those are things that you know, the

1632
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:07,040
Speaker 8: fascists try to exploit. Also, you know, they present themselves,

1633
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:10,240
Speaker 8: you know, fascionism presents itself in the Third World as

1634
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:13,480
Speaker 8: a strategy for you know, national dependence. When the Japanese

1635
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:14,800
Speaker 8: you know, empire.

1636
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:15,519
Speaker 2: But it so forward.

1637
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:18,679
Speaker 8: It was the you know, they presented themselves as being

1638
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:23,000
Speaker 8: opposing British and US imperiless in Asia. You know that,

1639
01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:26,320
Speaker 8: and you know then they were imposing their own imperialism.

1640
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:29,400
Speaker 8: But you know that that internationalist element I think is

1641
01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:34,679
Speaker 8: really critical. And uh, I think the same thing in labor.

1642
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:37,360
Speaker 8: I think that the labor movement, you know, needs in

1643
01:33:37,400 --> 01:33:40,879
Speaker 8: this country needs to think about, you know, prison struggles

1644
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:42,799
Speaker 8: as part of the labor movement, needs to think about

1645
01:33:42,880 --> 01:33:46,680
Speaker 8: the internationalists aularity with labor struggles elsewhere. One of the

1646
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:51,360
Speaker 8: things I raised with in relation to the Screen Actors

1647
01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:53,760
Speaker 8: Guild and Writers Guild here is that you know, they

1648
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:56,120
Speaker 8: raised this whole thing about artificial intelligence. And I don't

1649
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:59,880
Speaker 8: know if people are aware, but artificial intelligence depends on

1650
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 8: tens of thousands of people in the Philippines and elsewhere

1651
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:09,479
Speaker 8: that are working you know, as gig workers processing stuff

1652
01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:13,800
Speaker 8: to put it into artificial intelligence. And you know, the

1653
01:34:13,840 --> 01:34:18,519
Speaker 8: same thing you're saying about the border, the technology of

1654
01:34:20,160 --> 01:34:23,160
Speaker 8: self driving vehicles is based on the same technology using

1655
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:26,480
Speaker 8: to you know, for motion detection on the border.

1656
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:27,800
Speaker 4: You know.

1657
01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:30,680
Speaker 8: And the reason they're doing that is also because the

1658
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:36,080
Speaker 8: people driving self driving vehicles is not just Google and Uber,

1659
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:39,040
Speaker 8: but it's the US Army Tank Division, which wants to

1660
01:34:39,040 --> 01:34:42,679
Speaker 8: have automated self driving tanks the same way they have drones.

1661
01:34:43,320 --> 01:34:46,760
Speaker 8: And having that understanding that it is up against the

1662
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:49,559
Speaker 8: global system and the fascists or a piece of that,

1663
01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 8: but they're not the only piece of that, I think

1664
01:34:51,479 --> 01:34:53,880
Speaker 8: is really really critical to understanding what we have to

1665
01:34:53,920 --> 01:34:54,280
Speaker 8: deal with.

1666
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:58,080
Speaker 3: We talk about, you know, what would a fascist government

1667
01:34:58,200 --> 01:35:01,720
Speaker 3: look like if it was in control, you know, full

1668
01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:04,840
Speaker 3: control with no opposition. I think there are plenty of

1669
01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:07,599
Speaker 3: examples of that, and there's a fascist war happening right

1670
01:35:07,640 --> 01:35:10,680
Speaker 3: now in Ukraine, and I think that there's so much

1671
01:35:10,720 --> 01:35:15,799
Speaker 3: that we can learn from what is going on there

1672
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:19,880
Speaker 3: that oftentimes I think that as anti fascists we find

1673
01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:24,200
Speaker 3: ourselves wanting to be with the left, that we get

1674
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:29,360
Speaker 3: into a political situation that gets muddled. I went to

1675
01:35:29,439 --> 01:35:33,639
Speaker 3: the border twice in Ukraine when the war broke out.

1676
01:35:33,960 --> 01:35:36,719
Speaker 3: I would relive Unite the right one hundred times before

1677
01:35:36,800 --> 01:35:39,479
Speaker 3: I had to go back to that again. We don't

1678
01:35:39,600 --> 01:35:42,920
Speaker 3: understand scales until you have seen it, until you've seen

1679
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:46,559
Speaker 3: the hundred or the thousand yards there from hundreds of people,

1680
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:49,920
Speaker 3: you know, poring over the border. I'm sure James, you're

1681
01:35:50,080 --> 01:35:53,240
Speaker 3: you're you're very familiar with this, with the border work

1682
01:35:53,280 --> 01:35:55,040
Speaker 3: that you're doing there.

1683
01:35:55,720 --> 01:35:56,960
Speaker 9: These things are.

1684
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:02,840
Speaker 3: So often distant to abstract to us that we we

1685
01:36:03,200 --> 01:36:06,639
Speaker 3: lose sight, that we think that we can influence things

1686
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:10,200
Speaker 3: within our own spaces that will then have an impact

1687
01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:13,920
Speaker 3: on these bigger, bigger systems, and we can't write. So

1688
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:17,000
Speaker 3: I think that you know, to go back to you know,

1689
01:36:17,040 --> 01:36:19,000
Speaker 3: what would be the call of action? You know, what

1690
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:21,560
Speaker 3: would I want the listener to take take away from this.

1691
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:26,439
Speaker 3: I think that this is about as somebody said earlier, listen,

1692
01:36:27,680 --> 01:36:30,920
Speaker 3: listen more, and speak less. Right, try to read, Try

1693
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:35,720
Speaker 3: to to see what people elsewhere are doing, how they're organizing,

1694
01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:38,800
Speaker 3: what their needs are. You know, how do we do

1695
01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:42,360
Speaker 3: mutual aid in earthquake and flood stricken areas? How do

1696
01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:45,800
Speaker 3: we do mutual aid for refugees who are fleeing a war,

1697
01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:48,880
Speaker 3: and things like that. There's just so so much out

1698
01:36:48,920 --> 01:36:51,960
Speaker 3: there that we need to bring into perspective. And if

1699
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:53,800
Speaker 3: you think that you can fix any of it, or

1700
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:56,759
Speaker 3: even just a small part of it simply through speaking

1701
01:36:56,840 --> 01:37:00,360
Speaker 3: up or you know, awareness campaigns, I think that you'reld.

1702
01:37:01,120 --> 01:37:04,519
Speaker 3: So I think my call it action is go out,

1703
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:08,240
Speaker 3: read books, meet people, get off of Twitter. Scrass for

1704
01:37:08,280 --> 01:37:10,559
Speaker 3: me to say it. But the master's tools can't dismantle

1705
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:15,479
Speaker 3: the Master's house, right. We can't keep this pattern of

1706
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:20,040
Speaker 3: outreach cycles up. In order to move the issue forward,

1707
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:22,799
Speaker 3: we have to come up with something new. My challenge

1708
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:25,639
Speaker 3: to people is to put your brains together and figure

1709
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:26,880
Speaker 3: out what that new is going to look like.

1710
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:30,400
Speaker 5: Maybe that's where we could end actually is with each

1711
01:37:30,479 --> 01:37:35,400
Speaker 5: of you suggesting something like Emily has just done right,

1712
01:37:35,520 --> 01:37:38,160
Speaker 5: something to read, something to do, and an action to

1713
01:37:38,280 --> 01:37:42,360
Speaker 5: take they could concretely help us oppose and rebuff and

1714
01:37:42,800 --> 01:37:44,120
Speaker 5: push back against fascism.

1715
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:46,519
Speaker 2: I think it was pretty much going back to what

1716
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:53,639
Speaker 2: I was saying earlier that it will begin when we

1717
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:56,799
Speaker 2: take the bull by the horns. It will begin whenever

1718
01:37:56,960 --> 01:38:01,080
Speaker 2: we decide that we are going to with establish this.

1719
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:04,479
Speaker 2: I mean, it goes back. You know, I grew up

1720
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:09,520
Speaker 2: with hip hop. I was in the punk scene. Both

1721
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:14,639
Speaker 2: those genres, both those cultures were created by people who

1722
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:21,400
Speaker 2: by those who didn't see, say the mainstream listening to them.

1723
01:38:21,520 --> 01:38:23,519
Speaker 2: So they said, you know what, we don't need them.

1724
01:38:23,800 --> 01:38:25,599
Speaker 2: We need to just go ahead and do what we

1725
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:29,080
Speaker 2: need to do so we can benefit what it is

1726
01:38:29,120 --> 01:38:30,760
Speaker 2: we want to do. And that's the attitude that we

1727
01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:33,679
Speaker 2: got to have. We got to have that hip hop attitude,

1728
01:38:33,680 --> 01:38:36,320
Speaker 2: gotta have that punk attitude, and we just simply got

1729
01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:41,760
Speaker 2: to build the institutions that will address the situation. And

1730
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:43,840
Speaker 2: I will say it again, that's what Occupy was about.

1731
01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:48,080
Speaker 2: I think we need to continue to learn the lessons

1732
01:38:48,080 --> 01:38:52,559
Speaker 2: from Occupy in order to go forward. And once we

1733
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:55,360
Speaker 2: start doing that, first of all, when we do that,

1734
01:38:55,400 --> 01:39:01,160
Speaker 2: we're going to see again people trying to either co

1735
01:39:01,240 --> 01:39:07,080
Speaker 2: op or or take it down. And we got to

1736
01:39:07,080 --> 01:39:09,800
Speaker 2: also protect ourselves from from that as well. I mean,

1737
01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:12,360
Speaker 2: I know I'm repeating what I had said earlier, but

1738
01:39:12,600 --> 01:39:15,960
Speaker 2: I think that the solutions and you know what what

1739
01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:19,400
Speaker 2: I didn't say, I think the solutions are already being implemented.

1740
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:22,400
Speaker 2: I think that we are all have been working and

1741
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:26,400
Speaker 2: doing this. Folks that aren't on this Folks that aren't

1742
01:39:26,439 --> 01:39:30,120
Speaker 2: on this podcast, folks that would never be on any

1743
01:39:30,120 --> 01:39:32,920
Speaker 2: pockets are just basically putting their time and to make

1744
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:36,719
Speaker 2: sure that the things are done properly. I just got

1745
01:39:37,120 --> 01:39:40,960
Speaker 2: I just saw on the news that they had in Delaware,

1746
01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:47,160
Speaker 2: they just passed the law against I guess what they

1747
01:39:47,200 --> 01:39:52,160
Speaker 2: call panic panic killings in regards to the l g

1748
01:39:52,280 --> 01:39:55,120
Speaker 2: B t Q community. You know that what they also

1749
01:39:55,240 --> 01:39:59,840
Speaker 2: call back in the day, the gay panic thing defense. Yeah. Yeah,

1750
01:40:00,280 --> 01:40:05,760
Speaker 2: Delaware became the seventeenth state, I believe, yesterday to make

1751
01:40:05,800 --> 01:40:08,880
Speaker 2: that illegal. It should have been illegal in the first place,

1752
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:14,479
Speaker 2: but they basically for those who don't know what that means,

1753
01:40:14,520 --> 01:40:18,200
Speaker 2: it generally means you cannot kill somebody because you're freaked

1754
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:21,200
Speaker 2: out over someone being gag. I mean, that's just basically

1755
01:40:21,200 --> 01:40:25,400
Speaker 2: what it is concerned for. It happened after Jenny Jones.

1756
01:40:26,040 --> 01:40:32,559
Speaker 2: Somebody expressed their feelings towards another man, and that person

1757
01:40:32,640 --> 01:40:37,439
Speaker 2: after the Jenny Jones show, had murdered that person, and

1758
01:40:37,800 --> 01:40:40,679
Speaker 2: the killer, instead of getting first degree murder, got second

1759
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:43,840
Speaker 2: degree murder because he used the gay panic defense. So

1760
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:47,760
Speaker 2: people initially, so that was where everything started and everybody

1761
01:40:47,920 --> 01:40:51,120
Speaker 2: was saying that we got to do something about that.

1762
01:40:51,439 --> 01:40:56,000
Speaker 2: If it was not for us putting together the mechanism

1763
01:40:56,040 --> 01:41:00,680
Speaker 2: and the institutions to basically basically voiceocers and voice our

1764
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:03,719
Speaker 2: issues and say we got to do something about this today,

1765
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:06,479
Speaker 2: would that have happened. It should not be seventeen states,

1766
01:41:06,479 --> 01:41:09,160
Speaker 2: by the way, it should be all fifty. But that's

1767
01:41:09,160 --> 01:41:11,040
Speaker 2: the kind of things that we need to do. These

1768
01:41:11,080 --> 01:41:15,400
Speaker 2: are the things that it's all going to depend on

1769
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:20,200
Speaker 2: us and how we act to things that is going

1770
01:41:20,200 --> 01:41:23,639
Speaker 2: to make all the difference in the world. So when

1771
01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:26,880
Speaker 2: everybody's ready, that's rock and roll.

1772
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:31,720
Speaker 7: I think I'm really interested in getting people connected to

1773
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:35,439
Speaker 7: social movements for their entire lives and seeing things through

1774
01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:37,599
Speaker 7: being really connected with the communities. And I think that's

1775
01:41:37,640 --> 01:41:41,559
Speaker 7: about looking about where people fit in, where they feel

1776
01:41:41,560 --> 01:41:44,600
Speaker 7: comfortable building those relationships because it happens both at the

1777
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:47,920
Speaker 7: kind of local and national international scale. So finding I

1778
01:41:47,960 --> 01:41:50,639
Speaker 7: think a piece and pathway for folks. I mean, right now,

1779
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:56,000
Speaker 7: I think considering what we're dealing with climate and economic collapse,

1780
01:41:56,080 --> 01:41:58,560
Speaker 7: mutual aid networks or a natural central piece of that.

1781
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:00,120
Speaker 7: So it's a labor movement.

1782
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:02,760
Speaker 2: And going where the far right is.

1783
01:42:02,720 --> 01:42:05,400
Speaker 7: Having their front lines, making our defensive front lines. So

1784
01:42:05,479 --> 01:42:08,320
Speaker 7: for example, in defense of trans healthcare against that that

1785
01:42:08,360 --> 01:42:12,400
Speaker 7: trans legislation, and defense of queer events like directing story

1786
01:42:12,400 --> 01:42:16,240
Speaker 7: are that's absolutely important and we have those relationships now.

1787
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:18,400
Speaker 7: So it's about sort of finding a place to be

1788
01:42:18,439 --> 01:42:22,120
Speaker 7: able to reproduce those social movements and grow them. And again,

1789
01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:24,200
Speaker 7: like Daryl said, people are doing that, and I think

1790
01:42:24,320 --> 01:42:26,680
Speaker 7: like as there are shifts, people have to kind of

1791
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:29,640
Speaker 7: redefine that a little bit. But having that adaptability is

1792
01:42:29,680 --> 01:42:32,160
Speaker 7: what we've kind of learned over this rapidly changing environment

1793
01:42:32,200 --> 01:42:33,240
Speaker 7: the last few years.

1794
01:42:33,560 --> 01:42:36,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'll tacond again to give people a little bit

1795
01:42:36,880 --> 01:42:39,120
Speaker 8: of sense of the longer view. I think that the

1796
01:42:39,200 --> 01:42:41,160
Speaker 8: rise of the Christian Right in this country has a

1797
01:42:41,160 --> 01:42:43,280
Speaker 8: lot to do with the destruction of the labor movement

1798
01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:48,600
Speaker 8: and the collapse of organized labor. Was that vacuum was

1799
01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:52,760
Speaker 8: filled by, you know, the Christian right, because the labor

1800
01:42:52,800 --> 01:42:55,920
Speaker 8: movement at one point did touch people throughout their lives

1801
01:42:56,880 --> 01:42:59,719
Speaker 8: and their culture, and it was not just in your workplace,

1802
01:42:59,760 --> 01:43:02,880
Speaker 8: but it was a community organization. And I think that

1803
01:43:02,920 --> 01:43:05,760
Speaker 8: we have to rebuild that, you know, from the bottom up,

1804
01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:08,960
Speaker 8: and it is happening. There's a lot of young people

1805
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:11,880
Speaker 8: involved in labor organizing. I think that again what I

1806
01:43:11,960 --> 01:43:14,320
Speaker 8: said earlier about the fractal nature of the system, I

1807
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:15,880
Speaker 8: think one of the things people left in the name

1808
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:18,800
Speaker 8: is anything they're trying to do, they have an enemy.

1809
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:20,920
Speaker 8: It's not just a problem that they're trying to face.

1810
01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:23,640
Speaker 8: They have there is an enemy out there that is

1811
01:43:23,640 --> 01:43:27,920
Speaker 8: trying to enforce the system that we have as it collapses.

1812
01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:31,519
Speaker 8: And I think that that's critical. So, yes, the mutual

1813
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:33,400
Speaker 8: aid and the kind of things Emily was talking about,

1814
01:43:33,640 --> 01:43:36,720
Speaker 8: I think are critical. I think people are working on

1815
01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:39,720
Speaker 8: people's assemblies. I was at this dual power gathering and

1816
01:43:40,080 --> 01:43:42,919
Speaker 8: the Midwest, and there was just one up in Portland recently.

1817
01:43:43,200 --> 01:43:46,719
Speaker 8: And I think that the understanding that all the power

1818
01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:49,320
Speaker 8: and all the wealth that this system possesses is actually

1819
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:53,360
Speaker 8: stolen from the people that it oppresses and exploits, and

1820
01:43:53,400 --> 01:43:55,200
Speaker 8: that it's our power and it's our power to take

1821
01:43:55,200 --> 01:43:57,679
Speaker 8: it back. We have the creative power. I think that's critical,

1822
01:43:58,280 --> 01:44:01,920
Speaker 8: and that their power is exploitive and power over an

1823
01:44:01,920 --> 01:44:05,000
Speaker 8: hour is the power, you know, to create. I think

1824
01:44:05,400 --> 01:44:09,720
Speaker 8: that understanding and that concept of solidary and I do

1825
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:13,280
Speaker 8: think that you know again, Stephen Bico, part of the

1826
01:44:13,320 --> 01:44:16,559
Speaker 8: Black Conscience movement in South Africa, said the you know,

1827
01:44:16,760 --> 01:44:19,880
Speaker 8: the greatest weapon in the hands of the oppressor is

1828
01:44:19,920 --> 01:44:22,400
Speaker 8: the minds of the oppressed. And I think to the

1829
01:44:22,439 --> 01:44:26,000
Speaker 8: extent that we can wage to struggle for a different

1830
01:44:26,040 --> 01:44:29,799
Speaker 8: consciousness that is not based on privilege, is not based

1831
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:33,400
Speaker 8: on getting along by going along, is not based on individualism,

1832
01:44:34,240 --> 01:44:37,840
Speaker 8: you know, but it is based on collective solidarity, and

1833
01:44:37,960 --> 01:44:41,680
Speaker 8: that actually disempowers the people that we're dealing with and

1834
01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:44,080
Speaker 8: threatens them in ways that you know, they're they're they're

1835
01:44:44,120 --> 01:44:49,760
Speaker 8: freaked out. They understand better than we do the the

1836
01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:53,679
Speaker 8: tenuous nature of their power. And you know, the reason

1837
01:44:53,760 --> 01:44:56,200
Speaker 8: for fascism to turn to fashions is that they want

1838
01:44:56,240 --> 01:45:01,120
Speaker 8: to try to intimidate people and you know, U you know,

1839
01:45:01,200 --> 01:45:04,120
Speaker 8: break people people solidarity up. And I think that that,

1840
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 8: you know, we need to understand there's a dialectic there

1841
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:11,280
Speaker 8: and to the extent that we can create those connections

1842
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:15,599
Speaker 8: between people that actually disempowers them, the fascists and the state.

1843
01:45:16,120 --> 01:45:18,439
Speaker 8: You know, I have a different perspective on the three

1844
01:45:18,439 --> 01:45:21,400
Speaker 8: way fight. I think the three way fight is versus

1845
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:25,360
Speaker 8: the fascists, you know, the self declared fascists and against

1846
01:45:25,400 --> 01:45:28,479
Speaker 8: the state and the capitalist, the bourgeoisie, and you know,

1847
01:45:28,520 --> 01:45:30,920
Speaker 8: they're not identical. They have contradictions with each other, and

1848
01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:33,200
Speaker 8: we can exploit those and drive wages of our own.

1849
01:45:33,520 --> 01:45:37,200
Speaker 8: I think we have to find wedge issues that peel

1850
01:45:37,240 --> 01:45:40,880
Speaker 8: people off from their identification with the oppressor, with white

1851
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:46,000
Speaker 8: supremacy and with imperialism, and you know, pull people together

1852
01:45:46,080 --> 01:45:50,120
Speaker 8: and then who've been you know, separated from that identification

1853
01:45:50,200 --> 01:45:53,760
Speaker 8: with the state and with white power, and bring them

1854
01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:57,040
Speaker 8: into solidarity with you know, the global majority of people

1855
01:45:57,040 --> 01:46:00,679
Speaker 8: who are struggling for you know, survival the better world.

1856
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:04,479
Speaker 4: Does anyone have anything to plug besides the book?

1857
01:46:05,080 --> 01:46:08,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, explicitly plug the books. I don't think we did, Like, like,

1858
01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:10,240
Speaker 5: what where can you buy it?

1859
01:46:10,280 --> 01:46:11,080
Speaker 6: What's the code?

1860
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:11,920
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1861
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:16,160
Speaker 7: I can plug in and do the self promotion. So

1862
01:46:16,280 --> 01:46:19,200
Speaker 7: the book is no passon Anti Fascist Dispatches from a

1863
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:21,120
Speaker 7: World on Crisis, So we all have chapters in it.

1864
01:46:21,200 --> 01:46:24,680
Speaker 7: I edited it. It's with AK Press, who listeners are

1865
01:46:24,680 --> 01:46:27,559
Speaker 7: probably familiar with, so you can get Akpress. Always recommend

1866
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:30,000
Speaker 7: folks go to Akpress and buy directly if they can,

1867
01:46:30,240 --> 01:46:33,840
Speaker 7: but you can get it pretty much anywhere and it's

1868
01:46:34,200 --> 01:46:36,519
Speaker 7: a hefty read. It's about five hundred pages, about twenty

1869
01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:39,120
Speaker 7: five chapters, and it really covers the gamut. Some of

1870
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:41,120
Speaker 7: the stuff we talked about, some stuff we didn't get to,

1871
01:46:41,920 --> 01:46:44,240
Speaker 7: so it's a really good overview of some of the

1872
01:46:44,280 --> 01:46:48,000
Speaker 7: different conversations happening in the anti fascist movement and hopefully

1873
01:46:48,120 --> 01:46:49,280
Speaker 7: where it goes in the future.

1874
01:46:49,880 --> 01:46:50,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll take that.

1875
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:53,160
Speaker 8: I think the chapter in anti Fascism in the black

1876
01:46:53,200 --> 01:46:56,760
Speaker 8: metal scene was really fascinating and worth the price of

1877
01:46:56,760 --> 01:47:00,160
Speaker 8: the book all by itself. Honestly, the stuff by India

1878
01:47:00,280 --> 01:47:01,840
Speaker 8: I did want to talk to other books. I've been

1879
01:47:01,880 --> 01:47:05,080
Speaker 8: involved in what is called the Blue Agave Revolution. It's

1880
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:11,879
Speaker 8: self published myself and Olso Blanco, Indigenous political Prisoner Contact,

1881
01:47:11,920 --> 01:47:15,280
Speaker 8: Anti Racist Actions, anti Racist dot org or email me,

1882
01:47:15,320 --> 01:47:17,960
Speaker 8: Anti Racist on the Square, laid Yahoo dot com. I

1883
01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:20,719
Speaker 8: was also involved with, although I did edit or anything,

1884
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:22,880
Speaker 8: but I contributed a lot of material to We Go

1885
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:25,920
Speaker 8: Where They Go, which is from PM Press. It's the

1886
01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:29,759
Speaker 8: history of AAR and it's chock full of incredible material

1887
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:33,120
Speaker 8: about you know, specificity. One of the things we didn't

1888
01:47:33,120 --> 01:47:35,920
Speaker 8: talk about AARs involved in was cop Watch. But you know,

1889
01:47:36,160 --> 01:47:39,559
Speaker 8: just a lot of you know cultural material and other

1890
01:47:39,600 --> 01:47:41,200
Speaker 8: stuff there that it's well worth reading.

1891
01:47:42,200 --> 01:47:45,640
Speaker 2: Well, I guess I'll chime in. I'd say I have

1892
01:47:46,760 --> 01:47:49,559
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff out there right now. One of

1893
01:47:49,600 --> 01:47:52,560
Speaker 2: the things that you can look for with me is

1894
01:47:52,600 --> 01:47:55,160
Speaker 2: a documentary that was put out in twenty eighteen called

1895
01:47:55,280 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 2: all Right, Age of Rage. It's somewhere online. I believe

1896
01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:01,479
Speaker 2: it's on TB right now. What was on Netflix. I

1897
01:48:01,600 --> 01:48:04,320
Speaker 2: found out that the reason why it's not on Netflix

1898
01:48:04,320 --> 01:48:08,360
Speaker 2: anyway is because Netflix has deemed it too political. But

1899
01:48:08,400 --> 01:48:10,679
Speaker 2: you can still find it out there. It's a really

1900
01:48:10,720 --> 01:48:14,880
Speaker 2: good remer on basically what it is we're fighting in

1901
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:18,720
Speaker 2: this current time. We don't walk in fear is the

1902
01:48:19,000 --> 01:48:21,160
Speaker 2: is the latest documentary that I've been involved with. Some

1903
01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:25,320
Speaker 2: students in Villanova University wanted to do a documentary about me,

1904
01:48:26,760 --> 01:48:31,760
Speaker 2: and it's not exactly available to the public. What I've

1905
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:34,240
Speaker 2: been doing. You can probably find it at film festivals

1906
01:48:34,240 --> 01:48:37,240
Speaker 2: and things like that. But what I've been doing is

1907
01:48:37,760 --> 01:48:41,519
Speaker 2: showing it at various events that I've been invited to,

1908
01:48:42,240 --> 01:48:45,320
Speaker 2: whether it's some sort of speaking engagement or what have you.

1909
01:48:46,040 --> 01:48:49,720
Speaker 2: So it's only a half hour long, but if anybody

1910
01:48:50,520 --> 01:48:53,639
Speaker 2: in a university or in a bookstore or whatever, and

1911
01:48:54,040 --> 01:48:59,000
Speaker 2: would like me to come out and show the documentary

1912
01:48:59,040 --> 01:49:02,360
Speaker 2: to folks and talk about it later. Please feel free

1913
01:49:02,360 --> 01:49:05,320
Speaker 2: to give me hit me up over at our website

1914
01:49:05,800 --> 01:49:10,400
Speaker 2: One People's Project dot com. We also have a newsline

1915
01:49:10,640 --> 01:49:13,760
Speaker 2: that's adevox dot com. Both of them on threads and

1916
01:49:13,800 --> 01:49:19,000
Speaker 2: on ig We also have also The last thing that

1917
01:49:19,000 --> 01:49:22,559
Speaker 2: I would like to hype is also in twenty eighteen,

1918
01:49:22,960 --> 01:49:26,639
Speaker 2: there are There was the movie Skin where Mike Culter

1919
01:49:26,800 --> 01:49:30,000
Speaker 2: who played Luke Cage and it's in the TV show Evil.

1920
01:49:30,360 --> 01:49:35,320
Speaker 2: He plays me. It's about a neo Nazi, someone from

1921
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:38,040
Speaker 2: the villain the Social Club, one of the nastiest and forces,

1922
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:44,160
Speaker 2: who got out thanks to myself and others. And it's

1923
01:49:44,160 --> 01:49:47,679
Speaker 2: a beautiful story and it's been out since twenty eighteen.

1924
01:49:47,960 --> 01:49:51,040
Speaker 2: The short film is a different story. I'm not gonna

1925
01:49:51,040 --> 01:49:55,040
Speaker 2: say too much about it because you need to watch it.

1926
01:49:55,439 --> 01:49:57,719
Speaker 2: You can find it on YouTube, or you can find

1927
01:49:57,720 --> 01:50:01,800
Speaker 2: a feature feature Skin on Amazon Prime. But you can

1928
01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:04,719
Speaker 2: find they find a short film on YouTube. It actually

1929
01:50:04,760 --> 01:50:07,320
Speaker 2: won an Oscar in twenty nineteen and I'm listening as

1930
01:50:07,320 --> 01:50:09,360
Speaker 2: a consulting producer, so I guess I have an oscar.

1931
01:50:11,320 --> 01:50:13,840
Speaker 2: And that's about it. I mean, if you want me

1932
01:50:13,920 --> 01:50:18,280
Speaker 2: to speak, come to your colleges or whatever to speak

1933
01:50:18,439 --> 01:50:21,040
Speaker 2: or show the documentary. We don't walk in fear. Feel

1934
01:50:21,080 --> 01:50:22,560
Speaker 2: free to give me a ring. I'll be happy to

1935
01:50:22,560 --> 01:50:24,240
Speaker 2: see you. I love traveling.

1936
01:50:25,560 --> 01:50:27,479
Speaker 8: I can mentioned one other things. Actually I did. We

1937
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:30,880
Speaker 8: talked earlier. I am the intern general manager of KPFK

1938
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:34,040
Speaker 8: ninety point seven FM in Los Angeles. It's one of

1939
01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:37,920
Speaker 8: the PACIFICA radio stations, so it's KPFK dot org. We

1940
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:40,920
Speaker 8: have stopped labed spying on the radio. We have It's

1941
01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:43,719
Speaker 8: going down on the radio. We have Society of Native

1942
01:50:43,800 --> 01:50:46,120
Speaker 8: Nations and American Nadian Airwaves in the radio. We have

1943
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:50,680
Speaker 8: La Rasa Radio, a lot of others very worthwhile. It's

1944
01:50:50,760 --> 01:50:54,599
Speaker 8: at KPFK dot org and we're in a current membership

1945
01:50:54,680 --> 01:50:57,360
Speaker 8: drive for October. Anyone else joined the station. They don't

1946
01:50:57,479 --> 01:51:02,000
Speaker 8: live in La Anti Racist dot org has about thirty

1947
01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:03,720
Speaker 8: five years of turning the tie and a bunch of

1948
01:51:03,720 --> 01:51:06,120
Speaker 8: stuff actually from earlier. I put some of the stuff

1949
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:08,439
Speaker 8: from brother Reform from being in sexism but I worked

1950
01:51:08,439 --> 01:51:11,160
Speaker 8: on in the seventies up there, including a letter from

1951
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:14,880
Speaker 8: Michelle McGee was just recently released. Finally, after I think

1952
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:19,759
Speaker 8: forty eight years in prison, survivor of the Marine Courthouse rebellion.

1953
01:51:20,439 --> 01:51:21,599
Speaker 9: I don't have anything to plug.

1954
01:51:21,640 --> 01:51:25,680
Speaker 3: I have a book that I'm working on getting representation for,

1955
01:51:25,920 --> 01:51:28,760
Speaker 3: but that's still a little bit too early for me

1956
01:51:28,800 --> 01:51:32,280
Speaker 3: to plug. So I'll just maybe plug a little bit

1957
01:51:32,320 --> 01:51:35,880
Speaker 3: of what is continuing to happen in Charlottesville before we end.

1958
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:38,280
Speaker 9: So some of you may.

1959
01:51:38,160 --> 01:51:41,639
Speaker 3: Not be aware that criminal cases are still being brought

1960
01:51:42,080 --> 01:51:44,759
Speaker 3: against the neo Nazis who marched with the tiki torches.

1961
01:51:45,800 --> 01:51:50,360
Speaker 3: We have sort of successfully convinced the local prosecutor.

1962
01:51:51,160 --> 01:51:52,760
Speaker 9: To do something about.

1963
01:51:52,520 --> 01:51:57,559
Speaker 3: These fascists who have obviously terrorized the community and continued

1964
01:51:57,600 --> 01:51:58,400
Speaker 3: to do it in.

1965
01:51:58,280 --> 01:52:03,160
Speaker 9: Their other communities. Whether or not you agree.

1966
01:52:02,840 --> 01:52:07,320
Speaker 3: With that approach, the community in Charlottesfield and Alcomorell still

1967
01:52:07,320 --> 01:52:13,040
Speaker 3: needs that support and that witnessing. As this all heads

1968
01:52:13,040 --> 01:52:18,839
Speaker 3: to trial this winter, we're expecting some renewed fascist attention.

1969
01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:22,000
Speaker 3: So I'll just give a shout out for the community

1970
01:52:23,360 --> 01:52:23,960
Speaker 3: and ask.

1971
01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:25,840
Speaker 9: For your awareness.

1972
01:52:26,560 --> 01:52:28,519
Speaker 5: Great, well, thank you very much for time everyone. I

1973
01:52:28,520 --> 01:52:32,280
Speaker 5: think that was really instructive and interesting, and yeah, everyone

1974
01:52:32,280 --> 01:52:34,720
Speaker 5: should read the book. I read much of it before

1975
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:37,880
Speaker 5: we started today. It's great, it's very interesting. Yeah, thank

1976
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:38,639
Speaker 5: you very much.

1977
01:52:55,120 --> 01:52:57,760
Speaker 4: Welcome to what could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. This

1978
01:52:57,880 --> 01:52:59,920
Speaker 4: is the show where we talk about how everything kind

1979
01:52:59,920 --> 01:53:01,840
Speaker 4: of feels like it's falling apart and how we can

1980
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:06,320
Speaker 4: perhaps sometimes put some of that back together. In about

1981
01:53:06,360 --> 01:53:09,080
Speaker 4: a month's time, there's going to be what's being labeled

1982
01:53:09,240 --> 01:53:13,960
Speaker 4: a quote unquote mass nonviolent direct action converging on the

1983
01:53:14,080 --> 01:53:17,479
Speaker 4: Cop City construction site in Atlanta, Georgia.

1984
01:53:17,600 --> 01:53:17,840
Speaker 2: Now.

1985
01:53:17,880 --> 01:53:20,800
Speaker 4: A few weeks ago I interviewed the two people going

1986
01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:24,679
Speaker 4: around the country giving the block Cop City Speaking Tour

1987
01:53:25,120 --> 01:53:29,280
Speaker 4: in preparation for this upcoming action next month in Atlanta.

1988
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:32,000
Speaker 4: Like always, the opinions of those interviewed on the show

1989
01:53:32,080 --> 01:53:35,120
Speaker 4: don't necessarily reflect the views of the show or myself.

1990
01:53:35,479 --> 01:53:38,840
Speaker 4: And with this action in particular, there has been quite

1991
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:42,280
Speaker 4: the variety of opinions regarding its risk level and its

1992
01:53:42,400 --> 01:53:47,519
Speaker 4: ideological and tactical validity. But the action is going to happen.

1993
01:53:47,720 --> 01:53:50,040
Speaker 4: It is going to take place on November thirteenth, no

1994
01:53:50,080 --> 01:53:53,400
Speaker 4: matter you know some people disagreeing with aspects of it

1995
01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:56,280
Speaker 4: or having concerns about aspects of it, it is it

1996
01:53:56,320 --> 01:53:59,320
Speaker 4: is going to take place. So my interest in putting

1997
01:53:59,360 --> 01:54:01,640
Speaker 4: out this episode is to have a very open and

1998
01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:04,960
Speaker 4: clear discussion regarding some of the questions people have about

1999
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:08,880
Speaker 4: this quote unquote non violent action and also provide enough

2000
01:54:08,960 --> 01:54:13,120
Speaker 4: informations that people can make their own informed decision regarding

2001
01:54:13,160 --> 01:54:16,760
Speaker 4: what's going to happen next November. So with that, here

2002
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:20,320
Speaker 4: is my conversation with Sam and Jamie from the Block

2003
01:54:20,360 --> 01:54:24,639
Speaker 4: Cop City speaking tour. Joining me today is Sam from

2004
01:54:24,680 --> 01:54:27,680
Speaker 4: Block Cop City and Jamie Peck. Both of you have

2005
01:54:27,720 --> 01:54:31,000
Speaker 4: been going around the country I think it's around seventy

2006
01:54:31,040 --> 01:54:34,120
Speaker 4: cities right now, doing a speaking tour to talk about

2007
01:54:34,240 --> 01:54:39,600
Speaker 4: this upcoming action in November to Block cop City. Thanks

2008
01:54:39,640 --> 01:54:40,240
Speaker 4: for coming on.

2009
01:54:40,280 --> 01:54:43,320
Speaker 11: Guys, No problem, Yeah, thanks for having us.

2010
01:54:43,840 --> 01:54:46,720
Speaker 4: So I assume anyone who's listening to this is already

2011
01:54:46,720 --> 01:54:51,360
Speaker 4: familiar with cop City, whether through their own their own

2012
01:54:51,400 --> 01:54:53,040
Speaker 4: keeping up with the news, or even if they're just

2013
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:55,160
Speaker 4: even if they just listen to the show. We have

2014
01:54:56,480 --> 01:54:59,800
Speaker 4: covered Coup City quite extensively the past like two years.

2015
01:55:01,880 --> 01:55:04,640
Speaker 4: So let's talk about this this kind of upcoming action,

2016
01:55:04,720 --> 01:55:08,640
Speaker 4: because it's very different than kind of the previous mobilizations

2017
01:55:08,680 --> 01:55:11,880
Speaker 4: that we've seen, which have taken form as like weeks

2018
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:16,120
Speaker 4: of action. We had one last last June, we had

2019
01:55:16,160 --> 01:55:19,640
Speaker 4: one the previous March. So what's different about this new

2020
01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:22,680
Speaker 4: upcoming three day kind of mobilization.

2021
01:55:23,440 --> 01:55:27,919
Speaker 12: So yeah, obviously it's taking place on one day instead

2022
01:55:27,920 --> 01:55:31,120
Speaker 12: of a whole week, and there's gonna be two days

2023
01:55:31,480 --> 01:55:34,800
Speaker 12: of nonviolent direct action training leading up to the day

2024
01:55:34,840 --> 01:55:37,520
Speaker 12: of which would be really important to make sure that

2025
01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:39,640
Speaker 12: everybody feels prepared for what we're.

2026
01:55:39,480 --> 01:55:40,160
Speaker 6: About to do.

2027
01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:44,320
Speaker 12: It's different in a few different ways. I feel like

2028
01:55:44,400 --> 01:55:48,160
Speaker 12: this is a passover. I answering the four questions, Right,

2029
01:55:48,160 --> 01:55:52,160
Speaker 12: how has this action different from all other actions? Well,

2030
01:55:52,960 --> 01:55:56,720
Speaker 12: it's gonna be like a real centralization of efforts, right

2031
01:55:56,760 --> 01:55:59,200
Speaker 12: because other weeks of action have been a little more diffuse,

2032
01:55:59,400 --> 01:56:01,960
Speaker 12: a little more right out, And here we're sort of

2033
01:56:01,960 --> 01:56:05,040
Speaker 12: bringing to bear the full power of all the people

2034
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:08,000
Speaker 12: coming from all over the country in the same place

2035
01:56:08,120 --> 01:56:10,960
Speaker 12: at the same time. Because there's safety in numbers and

2036
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:13,440
Speaker 12: there's power in numbers. And I feel like the June

2037
01:56:13,520 --> 01:56:16,320
Speaker 12: Week of Action people were kind of going all over

2038
01:56:16,320 --> 01:56:19,520
Speaker 12: the place, not really sure what to do when. And

2039
01:56:19,600 --> 01:56:21,160
Speaker 12: I talk to a lot of people who were like,

2040
01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:23,280
Speaker 12: just tell us what to do, tell.

2041
01:56:23,160 --> 01:56:25,480
Speaker 6: Us what the move is on this particular day.

2042
01:56:25,520 --> 01:56:27,800
Speaker 12: And we'll be there and there is no one to

2043
01:56:27,880 --> 01:56:31,400
Speaker 12: do that, which you know is sometimes a hazard of

2044
01:56:31,440 --> 01:56:34,920
Speaker 12: sort of anarchistic movements. Right, nobody's in charge, and we're

2045
01:56:34,920 --> 01:56:38,440
Speaker 12: not in charge right now either. I should say. Everybody

2046
01:56:38,560 --> 01:56:40,640
Speaker 12: is going to have a chance to have input on

2047
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:43,760
Speaker 12: the final plan in a thing called spokes councils that

2048
01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:46,240
Speaker 12: we're doing the weekend before the action.

2049
01:56:46,760 --> 01:56:49,280
Speaker 6: But yeah, I think we're picking.

2050
01:56:49,000 --> 01:56:52,240
Speaker 12: A lane, and we're doing a thing, and this particular

2051
01:56:52,360 --> 01:56:54,959
Speaker 12: lane has been chosen for a number of different reasons.

2052
01:56:55,240 --> 01:56:55,440
Speaker 7: Right.

2053
01:56:56,200 --> 01:56:58,960
Speaker 6: The movement is in an interesting place right.

2054
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:01,840
Speaker 12: Now, where more people than ever know about cop City,

2055
01:57:02,200 --> 01:57:03,600
Speaker 12: more people than ever are.

2056
01:57:03,520 --> 01:57:05,160
Speaker 6: Opposed to cop City, as.

2057
01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:09,080
Speaker 12: Evidenced by the one hundred and twenty thousand petition signatures

2058
01:57:09,120 --> 01:57:12,080
Speaker 12: that the referendum campaign was able to collect to actually

2059
01:57:12,400 --> 01:57:14,760
Speaker 12: get a referendum on the ballot to let the people

2060
01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:17,360
Speaker 12: of Atlanta actually vote on whether or not they want

2061
01:57:17,360 --> 01:57:18,000
Speaker 12: this thing built.

2062
01:57:18,080 --> 01:57:20,640
Speaker 6: Of course, the city is throwing every trick in the book.

2063
01:57:20,400 --> 01:57:22,000
Speaker 12: At them because they do not want to let the

2064
01:57:22,040 --> 01:57:26,800
Speaker 12: people vote. But on the other hand, right, lots of

2065
01:57:26,800 --> 01:57:29,080
Speaker 12: people know about it, lots of people oppose it, but

2066
01:57:29,320 --> 01:57:31,880
Speaker 12: the number of people who are willing and able to

2067
01:57:31,920 --> 01:57:35,440
Speaker 12: show up and do direct action against it has dwindled,

2068
01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:38,120
Speaker 12: and that's for a few different reasons. Right, there's been

2069
01:57:38,280 --> 01:57:41,760
Speaker 12: so much repression of the movement. One hundred people at

2070
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:45,040
Speaker 12: least are now facing charges. We've got people facing domestic

2071
01:57:45,120 --> 01:57:49,520
Speaker 12: terrorism charges, We've got people facing RICO charges, just like

2072
01:57:49,600 --> 01:57:52,760
Speaker 12: an absurd overreach of the state, even according to mainstream

2073
01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:55,840
Speaker 12: legal scholars. So we really need a way for people

2074
01:57:55,880 --> 01:58:00,920
Speaker 12: to feel empowered doing direct action again is what we've

2075
01:58:00,960 --> 01:58:04,040
Speaker 12: settled upon as a solution, and maybe Sam can take

2076
01:58:04,040 --> 01:58:04,560
Speaker 12: it from there.

2077
01:58:05,360 --> 01:58:09,040
Speaker 10: Sure, thanks, yeah, to build upon that, I suppose, Right,

2078
01:58:09,640 --> 01:58:12,000
Speaker 10: you were sort of asking why is it that less

2079
01:58:12,000 --> 01:58:14,839
Speaker 10: people than ever are taking embodied action in the forest,

2080
01:58:15,360 --> 01:58:16,600
Speaker 10: And one of those reasons also is.

2081
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:19,040
Speaker 11: People have been directing attention to other initiatives.

2082
01:58:19,120 --> 01:58:23,040
Speaker 10: Right, So the one hundred and twenty thousand petition signatures is,

2083
01:58:23,280 --> 01:58:26,360
Speaker 10: you know, gathered by something like three thousand volunteers.

2084
01:58:27,440 --> 01:58:30,200
Speaker 11: There's all sorts of different parties throughout the movement who

2085
01:58:30,240 --> 01:58:34,200
Speaker 11: have been trying, you know, just another diverse tactic.

2086
01:58:34,320 --> 01:58:36,760
Speaker 10: Right, This movement has seen incredibly diverse tactics over the

2087
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:39,960
Speaker 10: last two years, all sort of moving in unison with

2088
01:58:39,960 --> 01:58:42,920
Speaker 10: one another, and we sort of see block Top City

2089
01:58:43,160 --> 01:58:48,520
Speaker 10: as just another type of tactic in a larger repertoire

2090
01:58:48,960 --> 01:58:52,680
Speaker 10: of a toolkit. You know, we haven't actually had an

2091
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:56,240
Speaker 10: instance of over a thousand people doing embodied direct action

2092
01:58:56,360 --> 01:58:59,080
Speaker 10: in the forest, like that's never occurred in this campaign.

2093
01:59:00,480 --> 01:59:02,480
Speaker 10: We've had a lot of people during some weeks of Action,

2094
01:59:02,560 --> 01:59:04,320
Speaker 10: but this is a little bit different in the scope.

2095
01:59:04,440 --> 01:59:05,960
Speaker 11: It's a little bit different in flavor.

2096
01:59:06,600 --> 01:59:08,680
Speaker 10: I liked what you were saying, Jamie about the sort

2097
01:59:08,680 --> 01:59:11,040
Speaker 10: of like a lot of other sort of convergences in

2098
01:59:11,040 --> 01:59:14,520
Speaker 10: Atlanta that were called weeks of action where we're distributed,

2099
01:59:14,600 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 10: we're very autonomously organized, and we're sort of treading a

2100
01:59:18,440 --> 01:59:21,880
Speaker 10: line between like the main sort of organizing style. You know,

2101
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:25,160
Speaker 10: we're on tour right now, right calling in from Vancouver

2102
01:59:25,240 --> 01:59:29,640
Speaker 10: and you're over in Maine, vast continental wide tour. One

2103
01:59:29,640 --> 01:59:31,720
Speaker 10: of the primary functions of this tour is like the

2104
01:59:31,760 --> 01:59:34,960
Speaker 10: activation of affinity groups to sort of catalyze and come

2105
01:59:35,000 --> 01:59:37,880
Speaker 10: down to Atlanta so that crews can sort of have

2106
01:59:39,000 --> 01:59:43,320
Speaker 10: the confidence of flexibility, the warmth and the revelry that

2107
01:59:43,360 --> 01:59:46,919
Speaker 10: comes with moving through space with your homies, with your comrades,

2108
01:59:47,400 --> 01:59:51,160
Speaker 10: while at the same time there's a very large cohort

2109
01:59:51,160 --> 01:59:55,240
Speaker 10: of various logistical teams trying to figure out various programming events.

2110
01:59:54,880 --> 01:59:58,080
Speaker 11: The locations of these trainings, how to feed.

2111
01:59:57,840 --> 02:00:01,240
Speaker 10: People, how to house people, how to keep people entertained,

2112
02:00:02,080 --> 02:00:07,320
Speaker 10: things like that. So it's I think the scope is larger,

2113
02:00:07,800 --> 02:00:11,720
Speaker 10: potentially hitting eighty cities if we can finalize a few

2114
02:00:11,720 --> 02:00:17,080
Speaker 10: final requests and the sort of the action itself, right, so,

2115
02:00:17,120 --> 02:00:20,040
Speaker 10: as Jamie was saying, is sort of confined to one day, right,

2116
02:00:20,080 --> 02:00:22,680
Speaker 10: but it's a four day convergence. So the action itself

2117
02:00:23,080 --> 02:00:25,480
Speaker 10: is being Our goal is to sort of carve out

2118
02:00:25,480 --> 02:00:26,360
Speaker 10: of space.

2119
02:00:27,760 --> 02:00:30,240
Speaker 11: That day of on the morning of Monday, November.

2120
02:00:29,880 --> 02:00:34,360
Speaker 10: Thirteenth, which thousands of people can take embodied action together

2121
02:00:34,400 --> 02:00:34,960
Speaker 10: in the forest.

2122
02:00:35,000 --> 02:00:38,160
Speaker 4: Again, when you say like embodied action, this thing has

2123
02:00:38,160 --> 02:00:43,560
Speaker 4: been advertised as using quote unquote strategic non violence as

2124
02:00:43,560 --> 02:00:46,160
Speaker 4: opposed to like moralistic non violence, like where you like

2125
02:00:46,200 --> 02:00:49,520
Speaker 4: oppose violent direct action on principle. Instead, this has been

2126
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:52,880
Speaker 4: trying to employ non violence as a strategic action. Do

2127
02:00:52,880 --> 02:00:55,000
Speaker 4: you want to talk a little bit about kind of

2128
02:00:55,320 --> 02:00:58,520
Speaker 4: how that's being envisioned, because I know there's certainly, even

2129
02:00:58,560 --> 02:01:01,560
Speaker 4: in Atlanta, there's a lot of people who are either

2130
02:01:01,640 --> 02:01:06,040
Speaker 4: skeptical or confused or fear that there's like other you know,

2131
02:01:06,080 --> 02:01:08,960
Speaker 4: safety issues with within action as public as this, right,

2132
02:01:08,960 --> 02:01:11,480
Speaker 4: because you're trying to get thousands of people to show up,

2133
02:01:11,680 --> 02:01:13,720
Speaker 4: So this is this very publicly announced thing, which also

2134
02:01:13,760 --> 02:01:16,000
Speaker 4: gives the police a big heads up. So I know

2135
02:01:16,000 --> 02:01:17,480
Speaker 4: there's been a lot of you know, there's there's a

2136
02:01:17,520 --> 02:01:20,640
Speaker 4: lot of questions, and I feel like, you know, the

2137
02:01:20,720 --> 02:01:22,960
Speaker 4: this this aspect of non violence is a very interesting

2138
02:01:22,960 --> 02:01:25,320
Speaker 4: one because the Defend the Atlanta Forest movement has been

2139
02:01:25,440 --> 02:01:31,640
Speaker 4: I think very historically defined by you know, very spontaneous,

2140
02:01:31,680 --> 02:01:35,200
Speaker 4: fiery acts of sabotage. So I guess, yeah, just that's

2141
02:01:35,360 --> 02:01:37,600
Speaker 4: I want to kind of I'm interested in this kind

2142
02:01:37,600 --> 02:01:39,120
Speaker 4: of strategic non violence aspect.

2143
02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:42,040
Speaker 12: Well, I don't know that it's been defined by these

2144
02:01:42,040 --> 02:01:46,120
Speaker 12: strategic acts of sabotage, which, by the way, I don't

2145
02:01:46,120 --> 02:01:50,760
Speaker 12: consider violence against private property to violence. Tend to apply

2146
02:01:50,840 --> 02:01:56,120
Speaker 12: that to human beings only. But yeah, we certainly we

2147
02:01:56,160 --> 02:01:59,800
Speaker 12: don't disavow violence. We don't dis about any tactics in

2148
02:01:59,840 --> 02:02:03,320
Speaker 12: the fight. I mean, the highest level of violence that

2149
02:02:03,400 --> 02:02:07,240
Speaker 12: any activists have even been accused of is probably about

2150
02:02:07,280 --> 02:02:09,640
Speaker 12: the same level that you'd find if you've ever had

2151
02:02:09,680 --> 02:02:12,680
Speaker 12: a Roman candle fight with your friends, right, you're shooting

2152
02:02:12,720 --> 02:02:17,040
Speaker 12: fireworks in each other's general direction. Obviously that wasn't happening

2153
02:02:17,080 --> 02:02:20,520
Speaker 12: for fun when folks did it in the activism world.

2154
02:02:20,560 --> 02:02:23,800
Speaker 12: But yeah, why non violence?

2155
02:02:24,000 --> 02:02:27,200
Speaker 6: Why now? It's a great question, and I think a

2156
02:02:27,240 --> 02:02:27,560
Speaker 6: lot of.

2157
02:02:27,480 --> 02:02:30,240
Speaker 12: It has to do with responding to the charges on

2158
02:02:30,320 --> 02:02:30,800
Speaker 12: the table.

2159
02:02:31,520 --> 02:02:32,600
Speaker 6: A lot of it has to.

2160
02:02:32,560 --> 02:02:35,800
Speaker 12: Do with wanting to create an easier on ramp for

2161
02:02:35,880 --> 02:02:39,960
Speaker 12: people and something that can be openly promoted because, you know,

2162
02:02:40,320 --> 02:02:42,960
Speaker 12: for better or for worse, the media has at times

2163
02:02:43,000 --> 02:02:45,839
Speaker 12: portrayed certain corners of the movement as these like scary

2164
02:02:45,920 --> 02:02:49,120
Speaker 12: eco terrorists, and you know, when people are doing a

2165
02:02:49,200 --> 02:02:52,960
Speaker 12: higher risk action, it's inherently something that you can't really

2166
02:02:53,000 --> 02:02:56,520
Speaker 12: go around the country talking about and engaging groups of people.

2167
02:02:56,280 --> 02:02:56,880
Speaker 6: That you don't know.

2168
02:02:57,720 --> 02:03:00,320
Speaker 12: So, you know, we wanted to strike this balance, right

2169
02:03:00,360 --> 02:03:03,680
Speaker 12: and what are we doing? Well, yes, technically it's a crime,

2170
02:03:03,800 --> 02:03:06,920
Speaker 12: so was what Martin Luther King did in the nineteen sixties,

2171
02:03:07,600 --> 02:03:10,520
Speaker 12: And we wanted to draw on that legacy, right, because

2172
02:03:10,520 --> 02:03:13,480
Speaker 12: the civil rights movement has a deep, deep legacy in

2173
02:03:13,520 --> 02:03:14,760
Speaker 12: Atlanta itself.

2174
02:03:15,160 --> 02:03:18,080
Speaker 6: So like we've had rallies at the MLK Center.

2175
02:03:18,520 --> 02:03:21,960
Speaker 12: And now, so, okay, we're doing a thing, right, There's

2176
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:25,360
Speaker 12: a thousand people there, there's children, there's clergy, it's in

2177
02:03:25,440 --> 02:03:28,920
Speaker 12: broad daylight. The state is sort of caught in a

2178
02:03:28,960 --> 02:03:33,400
Speaker 12: buyant now because okay, it could arrest one thousand people

2179
02:03:33,760 --> 02:03:38,560
Speaker 12: in broad daylight and charge them with domestic terrorism. That

2180
02:03:38,600 --> 02:03:41,040
Speaker 12: would create a political crisis, and that would be an

2181
02:03:41,080 --> 02:03:44,360
Speaker 12: international outrage, and I think it would also be fairly unprecedented.

2182
02:03:45,200 --> 02:03:48,640
Speaker 12: It's possible that that would happen, although I don't think

2183
02:03:48,720 --> 02:03:49,760
Speaker 12: that's what's going to happen.

2184
02:03:50,680 --> 02:03:52,520
Speaker 6: There was recently a similar kind of.

2185
02:03:52,440 --> 02:03:55,240
Speaker 12: Direct action on the construction site that the Faith Coalition

2186
02:03:55,280 --> 02:03:59,280
Speaker 12: against Cop City did. Actually, five people chained themselves to

2187
02:03:59,320 --> 02:04:02,640
Speaker 12: the construction of equipment and they were arrested. They're all

2188
02:04:02,680 --> 02:04:05,760
Speaker 12: out on misdemeanors now, which is what you usually get

2189
02:04:05,800 --> 02:04:10,280
Speaker 12: charged with for a protest of that nature. Right, So, yeah,

2190
02:04:10,280 --> 02:04:13,920
Speaker 12: the state could hypothetically arrest a thousand people and charge

2191
02:04:13,920 --> 02:04:17,000
Speaker 12: them with terrorism. That would be an international outrage, that

2192
02:04:17,000 --> 02:04:20,000
Speaker 12: would be a political crisis. On the other hand, the

2193
02:04:20,080 --> 02:04:23,440
Speaker 12: state could do and there are signs that has been

2194
02:04:23,440 --> 02:04:26,120
Speaker 12: pulling back, right because what I just said, if the

2195
02:04:26,160 --> 02:04:30,200
Speaker 12: state charges people with misdemeanors for doing the exact same

2196
02:04:30,240 --> 02:04:33,400
Speaker 12: thing that people were recently charged with terrorism or hit

2197
02:04:33,440 --> 02:04:36,880
Speaker 12: with RICO charges for doing that will also serve to

2198
02:04:36,920 --> 02:04:42,080
Speaker 12: further delegitimize these charges for the people already facing them.

2199
02:04:42,360 --> 02:04:45,760
Speaker 4: Mass arrests are certainly pretty big concern for people when

2200
02:04:46,160 --> 02:04:48,680
Speaker 4: they're deciding if they want to go to such an action.

2201
02:04:49,160 --> 02:04:52,320
Speaker 4: And I mean, because this action is happening, and you know,

2202
02:04:52,960 --> 02:04:55,560
Speaker 4: one of the most I would say, it's probably in

2203
02:04:55,560 --> 02:04:58,800
Speaker 4: like the top five most police areas of the country

2204
02:04:58,880 --> 02:05:02,080
Speaker 4: right now, is in the South River Forest is specifically

2205
02:05:02,120 --> 02:05:04,760
Speaker 4: the Copsity construction site. It's certainly concerned a lot of

2206
02:05:04,760 --> 02:05:07,600
Speaker 4: people have, especially when you know we're talking about possibly

2207
02:05:08,040 --> 02:05:10,800
Speaker 4: police arresting hundreds of people try to kettle them in

2208
02:05:10,880 --> 02:05:13,800
Speaker 4: the site. It's it's certainly a very very valid concern

2209
02:05:13,880 --> 02:05:14,080
Speaker 4: to have.

2210
02:05:14,720 --> 02:05:17,320
Speaker 10: I'll also add a little bit to that. So for me,

2211
02:05:17,520 --> 02:05:22,400
Speaker 10: the the question of like mass arrest is actually maybe

2212
02:05:22,400 --> 02:05:26,200
Speaker 10: not even in the top five reasons why I'm interested in.

2213
02:05:25,960 --> 02:05:27,080
Speaker 11: Doing this campaign.

2214
02:05:27,320 --> 02:05:30,720
Speaker 10: I think it obviously is a possibility, right, I would

2215
02:05:30,760 --> 02:05:34,320
Speaker 10: say the goal of this action for me at least

2216
02:05:34,480 --> 02:05:39,200
Speaker 10: is not to get arrested. Yeah, obviously, like you know,

2217
02:05:39,680 --> 02:05:42,600
Speaker 10: many civil disobedience campaigns, like that's an explicit part of

2218
02:05:42,600 --> 02:05:43,320
Speaker 10: their understanding.

2219
02:05:43,360 --> 02:05:45,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, like a lot of change, right, Yeah, A lot

2220
02:05:45,280 --> 02:05:47,920
Speaker 4: of like the extinction rebellion kind of tactics, even some

2221
02:05:47,960 --> 02:05:51,440
Speaker 4: of them more kind of earth first tactics kind of

2222
02:05:51,520 --> 02:05:55,680
Speaker 4: revolve around being arrested as a part of the tactic itself.

2223
02:05:56,000 --> 02:05:58,840
Speaker 4: And there's certainly been a lot of pushback towards that

2224
02:05:59,080 --> 02:06:02,320
Speaker 4: type of like self sacrificial tactic here in Atlanta the

2225
02:06:02,320 --> 02:06:04,800
Speaker 4: past few years, and kind of in the general kind

2226
02:06:04,800 --> 02:06:09,080
Speaker 4: of anarchistic mill you that's kind of been like stewing that,

2227
02:06:09,200 --> 02:06:11,680
Speaker 4: you know, is is this kind of self sacrifice of

2228
02:06:11,720 --> 02:06:16,480
Speaker 4: being arrested actually useful in any way? And I'm sure

2229
02:06:16,520 --> 02:06:18,400
Speaker 4: that is part of part of some people's thought process

2230
02:06:18,440 --> 02:06:20,720
Speaker 4: going into this, is is you know, if there's a

2231
02:06:20,760 --> 02:06:23,080
Speaker 4: decent chance I am going to get arrested just for

2232
02:06:23,160 --> 02:06:26,080
Speaker 4: walking onto a site, is is it worth it? But

2233
02:06:26,280 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 4: sorry you were I realized I was interrupted you and

2234
02:06:30,120 --> 02:06:32,120
Speaker 4: went on a short, a short rant.

2235
02:06:33,480 --> 02:06:35,480
Speaker 10: No, that's okay, it's a it's a it's a very

2236
02:06:35,480 --> 02:06:40,160
Speaker 10: important issue to a lot of us, right, So, yeah,

2237
02:06:40,240 --> 02:06:41,920
Speaker 10: like sort of as I was saying, like that the

2238
02:06:41,960 --> 02:06:44,680
Speaker 10: goal of this act is action is not to get arrested.

2239
02:06:44,720 --> 02:06:47,440
Speaker 10: But but obviously, as you were saying, like we're waltzing

2240
02:06:47,520 --> 02:06:51,480
Speaker 10: onto the fucking sorry cops city construction site, it's a

2241
02:06:51,600 --> 02:06:57,080
Speaker 10: very good chance, to say the least. And but for me,

2242
02:06:57,160 --> 02:07:01,480
Speaker 10: the other interesting parts about this is right is embodied

2243
02:07:01,480 --> 02:07:04,280
Speaker 10: action in the forest has just not felt possible for

2244
02:07:04,400 --> 02:07:07,160
Speaker 10: months and months and months. There hasn't been an occupation

2245
02:07:07,240 --> 02:07:10,600
Speaker 10: of the forest since the cops killed tort in January

2246
02:07:10,600 --> 02:07:13,200
Speaker 10: of this year, except for a couple of days during

2247
02:07:13,480 --> 02:07:16,240
Speaker 10: the March Week of Action, But largely speaking, in the

2248
02:07:16,280 --> 02:07:18,760
Speaker 10: forests has been held by big scary men with big

2249
02:07:18,800 --> 02:07:22,760
Speaker 10: scary guns for many months now, and the horizons feel

2250
02:07:22,800 --> 02:07:24,120
Speaker 10: incredibly obscured.

2251
02:07:24,720 --> 02:07:24,880
Speaker 11: You know.

2252
02:07:24,960 --> 02:07:29,920
Speaker 10: It's it's very unclear what the movement could do right now,

2253
02:07:29,960 --> 02:07:32,200
Speaker 10: that could that could jump start our energies, that could

2254
02:07:32,280 --> 02:07:35,280
Speaker 10: serve as a container for the thousands and thousands and

2255
02:07:35,320 --> 02:07:38,839
Speaker 10: thousands of disillusioned and disenfranchised folks who have been working

2256
02:07:38,920 --> 02:07:43,200
Speaker 10: tirelessly at other methods of change as well. Right so,

2257
02:07:44,200 --> 02:07:47,920
Speaker 10: our sort of theory is the most powerful action that

2258
02:07:47,960 --> 02:07:50,280
Speaker 10: we can do is one that's sort of defined by

2259
02:07:50,320 --> 02:07:53,480
Speaker 10: our by our power in numbers, by our power in

2260
02:07:53,560 --> 02:07:57,200
Speaker 10: our unity by our power and sticking together in order.

2261
02:07:57,280 --> 02:08:00,160
Speaker 10: So for me, the interesting question isn't even necessarily what

2262
02:08:00,240 --> 02:08:02,840
Speaker 10: happens on November thirteenth of this year, the day of

2263
02:08:02,880 --> 02:08:06,000
Speaker 10: the action. For me, the interesting question is like, what

2264
02:08:06,160 --> 02:08:09,000
Speaker 10: new horizons does this open up in the movement? How

2265
02:08:09,000 --> 02:08:12,280
Speaker 10: we can reactivate and recatalyze our energy and understand and

2266
02:08:12,360 --> 02:08:15,000
Speaker 10: prove to ourselves in a collective fashion that embodied action

2267
02:08:15,080 --> 02:08:18,320
Speaker 10: in the forest is indeed possible at a math level,

2268
02:08:19,080 --> 02:08:21,520
Speaker 10: and this actually sort of seeks to advance the energy

2269
02:08:21,520 --> 02:08:24,240
Speaker 10: and the movement to a new height that hasn't actually occurred.

2270
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:29,240
Speaker 10: What's going to happen is more people than ever will

2271
02:08:29,240 --> 02:08:31,560
Speaker 10: be in the forest together at the same time, and

2272
02:08:31,640 --> 02:08:34,240
Speaker 10: that right now is precisely what's needed in this.

2273
02:08:34,280 --> 02:08:36,280
Speaker 11: Moment, and the only way to do.

2274
02:08:36,280 --> 02:08:40,440
Speaker 10: That as we're doing this publicly and above ground one

2275
02:08:40,560 --> 02:08:43,160
Speaker 10: to help aid in that sort of facilitation of just

2276
02:08:43,240 --> 02:08:47,080
Speaker 10: a numbers game, right, and then two is like we

2277
02:08:47,120 --> 02:08:49,080
Speaker 10: want people to be able to make an informed and

2278
02:08:49,160 --> 02:08:52,080
Speaker 10: consensual decision on how they want to engage, and the

2279
02:08:52,120 --> 02:08:53,760
Speaker 10: only way that they can do that is for them

2280
02:08:53,800 --> 02:08:57,040
Speaker 10: to actually know what the heck is going to happen, Right, So,

2281
02:08:57,080 --> 02:08:59,360
Speaker 10: we're going around and being incredibly clear about what the

2282
02:08:59,400 --> 02:09:02,080
Speaker 10: plan is and how the finalized version of the plan

2283
02:09:02,200 --> 02:09:05,760
Speaker 10: will be, as Jamie sort of opened with, discussed democratically

2284
02:09:05,800 --> 02:09:09,560
Speaker 10: and horizontally at these in person outdoor COVID Safe Spokes

2285
02:09:09,560 --> 02:09:13,400
Speaker 10: Council meetings on Saturday, November eleventh and Sunday, November twelfth,

2286
02:09:13,480 --> 02:09:16,280
Speaker 10: down there in Atlanta, where all these affinity groups from

2287
02:09:16,280 --> 02:09:18,680
Speaker 10: around the country, around the state, and around the city

2288
02:09:18,680 --> 02:09:20,600
Speaker 10: of Atlanta will sort of elect one of their home

2289
02:09:20,640 --> 02:09:23,760
Speaker 10: needs to go to this larger general assembly type thing

2290
02:09:24,040 --> 02:09:27,320
Speaker 10: that will then sort of democratically and horizontally determine what

2291
02:09:27,400 --> 02:09:31,360
Speaker 10: the actual specifics of Monday's plan will be. Are there

2292
02:09:31,360 --> 02:09:35,440
Speaker 10: any sort of community agreements that we want to that

2293
02:09:35,520 --> 02:09:37,360
Speaker 10: we want to uplift and highlight so that we can

2294
02:09:37,400 --> 02:09:39,400
Speaker 10: all sort of know and be on the same page

2295
02:09:39,400 --> 02:09:41,760
Speaker 10: and move in a similar way together. And those could

2296
02:09:41,760 --> 02:09:43,760
Speaker 10: be I don't want to speak for with there because

2297
02:09:43,760 --> 02:09:45,800
Speaker 10: those will be determined in the Spokes Council. But the

2298
02:09:45,840 --> 02:09:48,360
Speaker 10: sort of like there's been questions, I guess lastly, there's

2299
02:09:48,360 --> 02:09:51,320
Speaker 10: been questions about well, what does that actually look like

2300
02:09:51,480 --> 02:09:57,880
Speaker 10: to maintain a level of non violence whatever that might

2301
02:09:57,920 --> 02:09:58,480
Speaker 10: actually mean.

2302
02:09:59,000 --> 02:09:59,600
Speaker 11: In a space.

2303
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:02,520
Speaker 10: Right, Like, I'm sure a lot of folks listening, and

2304
02:10:02,560 --> 02:10:06,240
Speaker 10: myself included, probably all of us here have witnessed, you know,

2305
02:10:06,360 --> 02:10:08,400
Speaker 10: for lack of a better word, peace policing or something

2306
02:10:08,440 --> 02:10:12,920
Speaker 10: to that effect. Right, Our wager with this, our goal

2307
02:10:12,960 --> 02:10:16,080
Speaker 10: with this, is the activation of affinity groups of crews

2308
02:10:16,120 --> 02:10:18,680
Speaker 10: that roll up together who enter into this sort of

2309
02:10:18,760 --> 02:10:22,480
Speaker 10: like consensual horizontal decision making space where community agreements are

2310
02:10:22,560 --> 02:10:24,720
Speaker 10: explicitly laid out in the days leading up to the action,

2311
02:10:25,280 --> 02:10:28,960
Speaker 10: those specific affinity groups can hold each other accountable to

2312
02:10:29,040 --> 02:10:33,040
Speaker 10: those norms in whatever way that they want, Right, you

2313
02:10:33,120 --> 02:10:36,360
Speaker 10: and your homies holding it down for one another in

2314
02:10:36,800 --> 02:10:41,240
Speaker 10: like what we're calling for, right is non violence. Like

2315
02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:43,320
Speaker 10: that we can debate, we can have a heavy political

2316
02:10:43,320 --> 02:10:44,160
Speaker 10: debate about.

2317
02:10:43,920 --> 02:10:46,560
Speaker 11: Like the meaning of violence and the meaning of non violence.

2318
02:10:46,640 --> 02:10:47,200
Speaker 11: But like the.

2319
02:10:47,200 --> 02:10:50,120
Speaker 10: Language of non violence has a rich history in American

2320
02:10:50,160 --> 02:10:53,000
Speaker 10: social justice movements, right, Like that term has meaning to

2321
02:10:53,080 --> 02:10:56,720
Speaker 10: a lot of people, And that's actually what's being advocated

2322
02:10:56,720 --> 02:11:00,360
Speaker 10: for on this day, but only on that day. Right, Like,

2323
02:11:00,400 --> 02:11:02,200
Speaker 10: So what we're talking about is like in this specific

2324
02:11:02,240 --> 02:11:05,880
Speaker 10: space that we're going to like create together, this is

2325
02:11:05,960 --> 02:11:08,880
Speaker 10: what we're doing. What we're calling for in this moment

2326
02:11:08,920 --> 02:11:11,600
Speaker 10: in time, in this specific geography, if people have other

2327
02:11:11,640 --> 02:11:14,800
Speaker 10: ways to engage in other spaces or at other times.

2328
02:11:14,960 --> 02:11:17,000
Speaker 10: One of the hallmarks of the movement is that by

2329
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:18,240
Speaker 10: all means they should right.

2330
02:11:18,440 --> 02:11:20,760
Speaker 11: That's what's kept this movement strong and this is no different.

2331
02:11:21,600 --> 02:11:24,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, I'd like to add that there's definitely a precedent

2332
02:11:24,440 --> 02:11:28,920
Speaker 12: for this within the movement. There were probably a number

2333
02:11:28,960 --> 02:11:30,640
Speaker 12: of events like this, but this was the one that

2334
02:11:30,720 --> 02:11:33,880
Speaker 12: I was there for. There was a march a rally

2335
02:11:33,920 --> 02:11:37,720
Speaker 12: into March at the MLK Center during the March Week

2336
02:11:37,720 --> 02:11:42,240
Speaker 12: of Action, and it was put on by Community Movement Builders,

2337
02:11:42,720 --> 02:11:47,800
Speaker 12: which is a great group, all black group organizing in

2338
02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:53,560
Speaker 12: specifically black working class communities in Atlanta, led by Kamal Franklin,

2339
02:11:53,720 --> 02:11:57,080
Speaker 12: and he put out a statement before this rally in

2340
02:11:57,160 --> 02:12:02,800
Speaker 12: March saying, you know, attention camera, this particular event is

2341
02:12:03,040 --> 02:12:06,680
Speaker 12: going to be a low risk event. We've decided that

2342
02:12:06,800 --> 02:12:08,800
Speaker 12: is what we need today. We've done a lot of

2343
02:12:08,880 --> 02:12:12,520
Speaker 12: work in the community getting community members to come out

2344
02:12:12,560 --> 02:12:14,920
Speaker 12: to this who maybe haven't been that involved in the past.

2345
02:12:15,200 --> 02:12:19,080
Speaker 12: A lot of older working class Black people are going.

2346
02:12:19,040 --> 02:12:19,480
Speaker 6: To be there.

2347
02:12:19,840 --> 02:12:23,440
Speaker 12: Please don't do anything that's going to attract extra attention

2348
02:12:23,560 --> 02:12:26,560
Speaker 12: from the cops. Don't do anything spicy, you know, don't

2349
02:12:26,560 --> 02:12:29,240
Speaker 12: break windows. If they tell you to stay on the sidewalk,

2350
02:12:29,320 --> 02:12:32,320
Speaker 12: stay on the sidewalk. Not that there's anything wrong with

2351
02:12:32,400 --> 02:12:35,520
Speaker 12: those tactics right in general, And he went out of

2352
02:12:35,560 --> 02:12:38,240
Speaker 12: his way to say, we do not denounce these tactics

2353
02:12:38,280 --> 02:12:40,520
Speaker 12: in general. It is just not the right thing to

2354
02:12:40,600 --> 02:12:45,080
Speaker 12: do today at this particular thing. And everybody pretty much listened,

2355
02:12:45,080 --> 02:12:47,840
Speaker 12: and everybody bathed themselves, and I thought it was a

2356
02:12:47,880 --> 02:12:51,480
Speaker 12: really cool example of you know, the respect, the mutual

2357
02:12:51,520 --> 02:12:54,720
Speaker 12: respect across different different corners of this movement.

2358
02:12:55,320 --> 02:12:59,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've definitely been thinking about that action in relation

2359
02:12:59,400 --> 02:13:01,760
Speaker 4: to this, to this upcoming kind of event.

2360
02:13:02,480 --> 02:13:02,680
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2361
02:13:02,720 --> 02:13:05,640
Speaker 4: I think it was on the Thursday of the fifth

2362
02:13:05,640 --> 02:13:08,040
Speaker 4: Week of Action, a few days after there was like

2363
02:13:08,400 --> 02:13:12,160
Speaker 4: the mass arrests at at the music festival, because I

2364
02:13:12,200 --> 02:13:14,200
Speaker 4: mean there were they were in the in the in

2365
02:13:14,240 --> 02:13:16,560
Speaker 4: the lead up to that Community Movement Builders march, there

2366
02:13:16,560 --> 02:13:19,360
Speaker 4: were very similar questions around like, yeah, like who's going

2367
02:13:19,400 --> 02:13:22,920
Speaker 4: to enforce nonviolence, which really is kind of a silly question,

2368
02:13:23,000 --> 02:13:25,800
Speaker 4: and that there is you know, there is precedent absolutely

2369
02:13:25,880 --> 02:13:28,720
Speaker 4: of people like peace policing and even turning over people

2370
02:13:28,960 --> 02:13:31,440
Speaker 4: to the cops. That that that that that is a precedent.

2371
02:13:31,840 --> 02:13:35,160
Speaker 4: But in this case, like you you know, these specific

2372
02:13:35,160 --> 02:13:39,240
Speaker 4: people and community movement builders have been pretty down with

2373
02:13:39,400 --> 02:13:43,840
Speaker 4: the more militant aspects of this movement for years, and

2374
02:13:43,880 --> 02:13:45,640
Speaker 4: you know, in the in the hours before that action,

2375
02:13:45,760 --> 02:13:49,480
Speaker 4: you know, people sought and gained more clarification on like no,

2376
02:13:49,560 --> 02:13:51,480
Speaker 4: like we're not going to like fuck you over, but like, hey,

2377
02:13:51,720 --> 02:13:54,000
Speaker 4: we're trying to like bring our grandmas and our kids

2378
02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:57,640
Speaker 4: to this. And not that the police need any excuse

2379
02:13:57,720 --> 02:14:01,120
Speaker 4: to you know, attack people, but this is you know it,

2380
02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:02,960
Speaker 4: this is the thing that we're planning, This is what

2381
02:14:03,000 --> 02:14:04,680
Speaker 4: this is what we're trying to do. You don't have

2382
02:14:04,760 --> 02:14:07,200
Speaker 4: to come if you don't want to, you know. And

2383
02:14:07,240 --> 02:14:09,640
Speaker 4: it's it is that type of like mutual understanding and

2384
02:14:09,720 --> 02:14:13,480
Speaker 4: agreement that actions like this kind of rest on. Because

2385
02:14:13,480 --> 02:14:16,320
Speaker 4: I certainly know that there's there's probably a good deal

2386
02:14:16,360 --> 02:14:18,960
Speaker 4: of forest defenders who you know, would like to jump

2387
02:14:19,000 --> 02:14:21,880
Speaker 4: at the opportunity to do you know, spicy stuff on

2388
02:14:21,920 --> 02:14:24,680
Speaker 4: the site, because that's that's a you know, from their perspective,

2389
02:14:24,680 --> 02:14:28,200
Speaker 4: that's a very uh, it's a very attractive proposal, which

2390
02:14:28,240 --> 02:14:30,600
Speaker 4: you know also as president. In these types of big

2391
02:14:30,880 --> 02:14:34,520
Speaker 4: mass mobilizations, There's there's certainly aspects of that that kind

2392
02:14:34,560 --> 02:14:37,800
Speaker 4: of intersect with this especially. You know, one concern people

2393
02:14:37,800 --> 02:14:40,760
Speaker 4: may have is that this is being pushed as like, hey,

2394
02:14:40,800 --> 02:14:42,320
Speaker 4: we're you know, we're going to all these cities, We're

2395
02:14:42,320 --> 02:14:44,720
Speaker 4: trying to mobilize all these people, get a thousand people,

2396
02:14:44,760 --> 02:14:48,320
Speaker 4: we're all planning this thing together. There's there's a certain

2397
02:14:48,440 --> 02:14:52,360
Speaker 4: risk that that type of language could be turned against

2398
02:14:52,360 --> 02:14:55,320
Speaker 4: any of the possibly hundreds of people arrested on March

2399
02:14:55,360 --> 02:14:58,760
Speaker 4: thirteenth and rule these into and have that role in

2400
02:14:58,800 --> 02:15:02,840
Speaker 4: to the reco charges that people are facing in Georgia. Now,

2401
02:15:02,920 --> 02:15:06,280
Speaker 4: I also kind of, from my understanding, part of this

2402
02:15:06,360 --> 02:15:10,320
Speaker 4: action is to kind of showcase the kind of absurdity

2403
02:15:10,400 --> 02:15:12,960
Speaker 4: of these reco charges by by demonstrating this is like

2404
02:15:13,120 --> 02:15:18,000
Speaker 4: very typical civil rights kind of you know, social movement organizing.

2405
02:15:19,000 --> 02:15:23,240
Speaker 4: But I think those two things I think can actually coexist,

2406
02:15:25,560 --> 02:15:28,480
Speaker 4: where yes, this is very typical civil rights organizing, and

2407
02:15:28,520 --> 02:15:31,600
Speaker 4: also the state specifically, you know, the state that you

2408
02:15:31,640 --> 02:15:35,800
Speaker 4: know in Atlanta have been have have not cared at

2409
02:15:35,840 --> 02:15:39,280
Speaker 4: all and is very is very willing to use these

2410
02:15:39,400 --> 02:15:41,720
Speaker 4: to use charges like this as a chilling tactic to

2411
02:15:41,760 --> 02:15:46,840
Speaker 4: suppress any future like protest or mobilization against cop City.

2412
02:15:47,240 --> 02:15:50,160
Speaker 4: So this is like, I think one other dynamic that

2413
02:15:50,200 --> 02:15:52,480
Speaker 4: people are certainly thinking about in terms of, you know,

2414
02:15:53,120 --> 02:15:55,120
Speaker 4: deciding if they want to participate in something like this.

2415
02:15:56,040 --> 02:16:00,960
Speaker 10: Sure, yeah, above all, one of the primary functions repression, right,

2416
02:16:01,120 --> 02:16:04,560
Speaker 10: is to to scare us into inaction, right, And in

2417
02:16:04,600 --> 02:16:07,200
Speaker 10: the face of that, the worst thing that we can

2418
02:16:07,240 --> 02:16:12,800
Speaker 10: do is power away and shrink. And precisely, this type

2419
02:16:12,840 --> 02:16:17,200
Speaker 10: of mass mobilization is the ultimate show of solidarity with

2420
02:16:17,240 --> 02:16:21,000
Speaker 10: all people who have been swept up into various trumped

2421
02:16:21,040 --> 02:16:27,440
Speaker 10: up legal charges related to this movement. And and also

2422
02:16:27,520 --> 02:16:30,840
Speaker 10: there's you know, throughout the history of American social movements,

2423
02:16:30,840 --> 02:16:34,320
Speaker 10: there's there's there's president after president after precedent of people

2424
02:16:34,400 --> 02:16:37,080
Speaker 10: organizing their communities and their friends that they care about

2425
02:16:37,160 --> 02:16:40,920
Speaker 10: to travel to a place of you know, of injustice

2426
02:16:41,000 --> 02:16:42,640
Speaker 10: and stand in solidarity together.

2427
02:16:42,800 --> 02:16:42,920
Speaker 5: Right.

2428
02:16:43,000 --> 02:16:46,800
Speaker 10: This is like, this isn't a classic organizing tactic. It's

2429
02:16:46,840 --> 02:16:49,040
Speaker 10: nothing particularly new. It's the first time that I've been

2430
02:16:49,040 --> 02:16:51,400
Speaker 10: involved in and sort of this scale of organizing and

2431
02:16:51,400 --> 02:16:56,040
Speaker 10: this sort of specific flavor I think with any action,

2432
02:16:56,440 --> 02:17:01,000
Speaker 10: right just because we call it non violence doesn't mean

2433
02:17:01,080 --> 02:17:04,480
Speaker 10: that violence won't occur on the site, specifically maybe at

2434
02:17:04,480 --> 02:17:07,000
Speaker 10: the hands of the police or other law enforcement agencies. Right,

2435
02:17:07,640 --> 02:17:09,760
Speaker 10: just because we call it non violence doesn't mean that

2436
02:17:09,760 --> 02:17:12,680
Speaker 10: there isn't risk involved. Right, with any action that we

2437
02:17:12,760 --> 02:17:17,039
Speaker 10: go to, there's risk involved. But you know, our understanding

2438
02:17:17,080 --> 02:17:20,720
Speaker 10: is that the risk of inaction far outweighs the risk

2439
02:17:20,760 --> 02:17:22,599
Speaker 10: of action in this moment.

2440
02:17:23,200 --> 02:17:25,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, because they're going to build that thing if nobody

2441
02:17:25,640 --> 02:17:28,240
Speaker 6: does anything. They're trying to build it right now.

2442
02:17:28,879 --> 02:17:31,480
Speaker 12: And what's going to happen after that, Well, there's going

2443
02:17:31,520 --> 02:17:33,800
Speaker 12: to be hundreds and hundreds more cops on the streets,

2444
02:17:34,440 --> 02:17:40,959
Speaker 12: trained in all the latest militarized technological ways to you

2445
02:17:41,520 --> 02:17:45,440
Speaker 12: oppress and terrorize civilian populations and put down the next

2446
02:17:45,440 --> 02:17:49,560
Speaker 12: big popular uprising, which they've connected it with very explicitly.

2447
02:17:49,680 --> 02:17:51,760
Speaker 6: So we should be thinking about it in that way too.

2448
02:17:52,680 --> 02:17:58,000
Speaker 10: And you know, we're a generation without victories, right.

2449
02:17:58,480 --> 02:17:59,920
Speaker 11: It just sort of feels like we.

2450
02:18:01,280 --> 02:18:03,640
Speaker 10: I don't want to minimize the real tangible wins that

2451
02:18:03,680 --> 02:18:06,080
Speaker 10: do indeed happen, but largely speaking, it feels like we're

2452
02:18:06,080 --> 02:18:07,480
Speaker 10: a generation without victories.

2453
02:18:07,760 --> 02:18:10,280
Speaker 11: We need to win social struggles.

2454
02:18:10,320 --> 02:18:13,240
Speaker 10: And tens of thousands of people from around the world

2455
02:18:13,280 --> 02:18:16,320
Speaker 10: are watching the Defend the Atlanta Forest movement hoping that

2456
02:18:16,360 --> 02:18:19,680
Speaker 10: it wins. Right, So I sort of asked myself what

2457
02:18:19,800 --> 02:18:24,120
Speaker 10: would have happened if Standing Rock would have won? Right,

2458
02:18:24,200 --> 02:18:26,160
Speaker 10: Like Standing Rock raised the bar for what it means

2459
02:18:26,160 --> 02:18:28,720
Speaker 10: to resist a pipeline en camp in an unseated indigenous

2460
02:18:28,760 --> 02:18:31,039
Speaker 10: territory in this country. It raised the bar for that, right,

2461
02:18:31,320 --> 02:18:33,920
Speaker 10: So the next time that invariably rulls around, hopefully we

2462
02:18:33,920 --> 02:18:36,119
Speaker 10: can begin from that ploy that point.

2463
02:18:36,520 --> 02:18:38,320
Speaker 11: But the pipeline is built.

2464
02:18:38,120 --> 02:18:41,720
Speaker 10: Right, oil is flowing through it, oil is leaking through it.

2465
02:18:41,720 --> 02:18:44,800
Speaker 10: It didn't win that element of the work, and that's

2466
02:18:44,840 --> 02:18:47,200
Speaker 10: why it's important that we have victories. And that's why

2467
02:18:47,560 --> 02:18:49,240
Speaker 10: you know, there's so much, so many people pouring so

2468
02:18:49,320 --> 02:18:51,920
Speaker 10: much energy into the Defend the Atlanta Forest, Stop cop City,

2469
02:18:51,959 --> 02:18:56,280
Speaker 10: No Hollywood Dystopia campaign, because we know it's winnable, but

2470
02:18:56,360 --> 02:18:59,320
Speaker 10: we need to ratchet up. And this is precisely the

2471
02:18:59,360 --> 02:19:03,080
Speaker 10: sort of level of accessible but also drastically heightened level

2472
02:19:03,120 --> 02:19:05,480
Speaker 10: of ratcheting up of our intensity of our collective power

2473
02:19:05,520 --> 02:19:07,280
Speaker 10: together that's possible in this moment.

2474
02:19:08,200 --> 02:19:10,800
Speaker 4: One thing that Sam you kind of mentioned earlier in

2475
02:19:10,800 --> 02:19:14,680
Speaker 4: this conversation is that this plan is really just one

2476
02:19:14,879 --> 02:19:17,800
Speaker 4: spear in the many that's trying to put cracks in

2477
02:19:17,840 --> 02:19:21,240
Speaker 4: the facade of the cop City project, and this action

2478
02:19:21,320 --> 02:19:24,520
Speaker 4: is really just being put in relation to a whole

2479
02:19:24,520 --> 02:19:27,240
Speaker 4: bunch of other things that could happen that would eventually

2480
02:19:27,360 --> 02:19:30,160
Speaker 4: lead to cop City being stopped. I think that's a

2481
02:19:30,200 --> 02:19:32,960
Speaker 4: really important aspect to kind of clarify, because you know,

2482
02:19:33,000 --> 02:19:36,039
Speaker 4: there are some detractors who are you know, framing this

2483
02:19:36,160 --> 02:19:39,640
Speaker 4: action as being like the only you know, path forward

2484
02:19:39,720 --> 02:19:42,400
Speaker 4: that organizers are wanting to do, and I don't know this.

2485
02:19:42,520 --> 02:19:45,920
Speaker 4: This movement's been very very based on people taking their

2486
02:19:45,920 --> 02:19:49,520
Speaker 4: own spontaneous action and there being not just one strategy,

2487
02:19:49,600 --> 02:19:53,040
Speaker 4: not just one plan. There's always a big, a big,

2488
02:19:53,120 --> 02:19:55,040
Speaker 4: you know, litany of things that could be going on,

2489
02:19:55,400 --> 02:19:58,720
Speaker 4: which all kind of starts to put pressure on this

2490
02:19:58,879 --> 02:20:00,600
Speaker 4: on this house of cards, so to speak.

2491
02:20:01,040 --> 02:20:04,039
Speaker 10: There's a political crisis, a bruin in Atlanta that has

2492
02:20:04,080 --> 02:20:07,480
Speaker 10: been for a very long time. Right, Andre Dickens, for

2493
02:20:07,520 --> 02:20:11,560
Speaker 10: some reason, has put all of his chips into this thing,

2494
02:20:11,720 --> 02:20:13,280
Speaker 10: and he is like hated for it.

2495
02:20:13,360 --> 02:20:13,520
Speaker 8: Right.

2496
02:20:13,920 --> 02:20:17,320
Speaker 11: The Atlanta Police Foundation has taken out millions and millions

2497
02:20:17,360 --> 02:20:20,440
Speaker 11: and millions of dollars of loans to build this thing.

2498
02:20:21,000 --> 02:20:25,320
Speaker 11: If they fail to build Copcity, which they will, then

2499
02:20:25,320 --> 02:20:28,040
Speaker 11: they will default on those loans and they might go bankrupt.

2500
02:20:28,520 --> 02:20:32,800
Speaker 10: So this entire project not is essentially a house of cards,

2501
02:20:33,240 --> 02:20:35,320
Speaker 10: and it doesn't really feel that way because it's being

2502
02:20:35,360 --> 02:20:39,240
Speaker 10: buttressed on all sides by corporations, by crony politicians, by

2503
02:20:40,200 --> 02:20:43,080
Speaker 10: big men with big guns, you know. But they're doing

2504
02:20:43,120 --> 02:20:46,360
Speaker 10: so precisely because it's fragile, precisely because it's a house

2505
02:20:46,400 --> 02:20:49,920
Speaker 10: of cards, and there's zero buy in from the community

2506
02:20:50,160 --> 02:20:53,000
Speaker 10: and from people and standing in solidarity around the world

2507
02:20:53,400 --> 02:20:55,320
Speaker 10: for this project.

2508
02:20:55,760 --> 02:20:58,680
Speaker 11: What could be a fatal death blow to this movement

2509
02:20:58,879 --> 02:21:02,959
Speaker 11: is a mass quantitative uptick in the number of people

2510
02:21:03,000 --> 02:21:07,600
Speaker 11: taking action in the forest, and that would be a

2511
02:21:07,640 --> 02:21:10,640
Speaker 11: new and novel blow to this thing that it hasn't

2512
02:21:10,680 --> 02:21:11,280
Speaker 11: really seen.

2513
02:21:12,160 --> 02:21:16,200
Speaker 12: There really is a battle happening over the like who

2514
02:21:16,240 --> 02:21:19,640
Speaker 12: gets to use this language of social justice and who

2515
02:21:19,640 --> 02:21:22,039
Speaker 12: gets to draw on the legacy of the civil rights movement?

2516
02:21:22,440 --> 02:21:25,920
Speaker 12: Right and there are two really competing narratives right now.

2517
02:21:26,879 --> 02:21:30,720
Speaker 12: You have the stop Cop City movement, which has a

2518
02:21:30,720 --> 02:21:34,360
Speaker 12: pretty complete analysis, i would say, of the ways that

2519
02:21:35,400 --> 02:21:41,320
Speaker 12: racial oppression and class exploitation power, American capitalism, right, and

2520
02:21:41,360 --> 02:21:45,400
Speaker 12: the ways that copcity feed into and enable those.

2521
02:21:45,160 --> 02:21:47,640
Speaker 6: Things with the help of the bourgeois state.

2522
02:21:48,160 --> 02:21:51,680
Speaker 12: And then you have the cynical take from the City

2523
02:21:51,720 --> 02:21:54,040
Speaker 12: of Atlanta and from the political class.

2524
02:21:54,760 --> 02:21:55,520
Speaker 6: I'm looking at a.

2525
02:21:55,480 --> 02:21:59,400
Speaker 12: Post that just I think just was posted by the

2526
02:21:59,400 --> 02:22:03,400
Speaker 12: City of to Twitter account. It says Mayor Andre for

2527
02:22:03,480 --> 02:22:07,520
Speaker 12: Atlanta welcomed guests to the March on Washington's sixtieth Dream

2528
02:22:07,600 --> 02:22:11,520
Speaker 12: Youth panel at North Atlanta High School. Mayor Dickens highlighted

2529
02:22:11,520 --> 02:22:15,280
Speaker 12: the significance of mlk's nonviolence movement and shared his hopes

2530
02:22:15,320 --> 02:22:18,640
Speaker 12: that our youth will work together to fulfill mlk's dream

2531
02:22:19,120 --> 02:22:25,520
Speaker 12: hashtag m W sixty. So there we have a cynical

2532
02:22:26,000 --> 02:22:29,240
Speaker 12: attempt to harness the legacy of the civil rights movement, right,

2533
02:22:29,280 --> 02:22:33,200
Speaker 12: because what the fuck is he even talking about? Like,

2534
02:22:33,879 --> 02:22:37,240
Speaker 12: how are youths going to work together to fulfill Mlk's

2535
02:22:37,320 --> 02:22:43,520
Speaker 12: dream of you know, freedom equality? Uh, not just in

2536
02:22:43,640 --> 02:22:47,439
Speaker 12: terms of who gets to buy things at a particular store,

2537
02:22:47,480 --> 02:22:53,920
Speaker 12: but like true economic power and equality for everyone, especially

2538
02:22:54,000 --> 02:22:58,400
Speaker 12: black proletarians who have served a very specific and important

2539
02:22:58,480 --> 02:23:00,720
Speaker 12: role in American capitalism.

2540
02:23:00,959 --> 02:23:05,440
Speaker 6: Right, what is he talking about? If not, like, we're

2541
02:23:05,480 --> 02:23:07,199
Speaker 6: doing exactly what MLKA.

2542
02:23:07,120 --> 02:23:07,480
Speaker 9: Used to do.

2543
02:23:07,520 --> 02:23:09,880
Speaker 12: This is a non violent act of civil disobedience. So

2544
02:23:09,920 --> 02:23:11,800
Speaker 12: what could he What else could he mean by that?

2545
02:23:12,520 --> 02:23:15,760
Speaker 12: Does he mean voting for Democrats? Does he mean, you know,

2546
02:23:15,879 --> 02:23:20,720
Speaker 12: working for NGOs? Does he mean joining this political class?

2547
02:23:20,800 --> 02:23:25,480
Speaker 12: Because I think, like it actually makes me feel better

2548
02:23:25,560 --> 02:23:27,360
Speaker 12: that the people of Atlanta seem to know that this

2549
02:23:27,400 --> 02:23:30,720
Speaker 12: is bullshit. Despite all of the propaganda that's been coming

2550
02:23:30,760 --> 02:23:33,600
Speaker 12: out from from the state and from the you know,

2551
02:23:33,920 --> 02:23:37,600
Speaker 12: the bourgeois media and the mainstream press that just kind

2552
02:23:37,600 --> 02:23:41,520
Speaker 12: of uncritically reports the things that the mayor says, the

2553
02:23:41,520 --> 02:23:45,320
Speaker 12: things that the cops say. The propaganda isn't working. One

2554
02:23:45,400 --> 02:23:48,400
Speaker 12: hundred and twenty thousand people signed this petition in a

2555
02:23:48,400 --> 02:23:51,400
Speaker 12: city of five hundred thousand. I mean, I think they

2556
02:23:51,720 --> 02:23:56,760
Speaker 12: can clearly see who's really carrying on this project of

2557
02:23:56,800 --> 02:23:58,279
Speaker 12: social justice and equality.

2558
02:23:59,000 --> 02:24:01,959
Speaker 4: Great. I always I always love checking up on the

2559
02:24:01,959 --> 02:24:04,800
Speaker 4: City of Atlanta Twitter account because at least once a

2560
02:24:04,879 --> 02:24:12,440
Speaker 4: day they post some absolutely absurd thing. I guess because

2561
02:24:12,840 --> 02:24:15,200
Speaker 4: the last thing I think it's probably worth mentioning is

2562
02:24:15,200 --> 02:24:17,480
Speaker 4: that like a big part of this plan is trying

2563
02:24:17,480 --> 02:24:20,640
Speaker 4: to catalyze affinity groups to come to the city, you

2564
02:24:20,680 --> 02:24:23,680
Speaker 4: know with you know, specifically with the idea of them

2565
02:24:23,800 --> 02:24:27,879
Speaker 4: participating in this in this action on November thirteenth, But

2566
02:24:28,000 --> 02:24:32,320
Speaker 4: you know, nothing is stopping affinity groups from pursuing other

2567
02:24:32,400 --> 02:24:35,120
Speaker 4: forms of direct action during the for the four or

2568
02:24:35,120 --> 02:24:37,880
Speaker 4: so days they might be in town. I think it's

2569
02:24:37,920 --> 02:24:40,520
Speaker 4: you know, a big, a large part of this movement's

2570
02:24:40,520 --> 02:24:43,640
Speaker 4: been very based on like self determination and radical autonomy,

2571
02:24:43,959 --> 02:24:48,440
Speaker 4: whether that's that includes your ability to participate in you know,

2572
02:24:48,600 --> 02:24:53,120
Speaker 4: big big collective max big collective mass actions, or just

2573
02:24:53,160 --> 02:24:56,120
Speaker 4: having fun with your friends around the city, like what

2574
02:24:56,200 --> 02:24:58,199
Speaker 4: happened near the end of the last week of action

2575
02:24:58,400 --> 02:25:03,840
Speaker 4: where eight motorcycles mysteriously vanished from the material plane.

2576
02:25:04,440 --> 02:25:05,840
Speaker 11: So that.

2577
02:25:07,680 --> 02:25:10,560
Speaker 4: We're about a month away from this. If people are

2578
02:25:10,600 --> 02:25:13,080
Speaker 4: interested in want to kind of learn more information about

2579
02:25:13,160 --> 02:25:19,160
Speaker 4: this proposal, where can people find, as said information.

2580
02:25:19,560 --> 02:25:20,440
Speaker 11: Yeah, thanks for that.

2581
02:25:21,000 --> 02:25:23,800
Speaker 10: We're currently in the middle of our Wei Lanni worldwide

2582
02:25:23,800 --> 02:25:27,080
Speaker 10: Math Action speaking tour eighty cities from from Portland, Maine

2583
02:25:27,160 --> 02:25:31,040
Speaker 10: to Portland, Oregon, Vancouver to Tijuana and everywhere in between.

2584
02:25:31,800 --> 02:25:34,560
Speaker 10: Jamie and I will also be co hosting a Zoom

2585
02:25:34,600 --> 02:25:39,039
Speaker 10: tour stop on Saturday, October fourteenth, at three pm Eastern time.

2586
02:25:39,600 --> 02:25:43,800
Speaker 10: Check out blochcopcity dot org for information on those tour stops,

2587
02:25:43,840 --> 02:25:46,920
Speaker 10: including the ones on Zoom. There's also going to be

2588
02:25:46,959 --> 02:25:49,400
Speaker 10: a schedule for the weekends festivities that is coming up

2589
02:25:49,440 --> 02:25:55,240
Speaker 10: quite soon, which could include several cultural events, welcoming ceremonies too,

2590
02:25:55,480 --> 02:25:58,560
Speaker 10: in person spokes concil meetings, general direct action, non violent

2591
02:25:58,600 --> 02:26:02,160
Speaker 10: direct action trainings, as well as other ways to spend

2592
02:26:02,240 --> 02:26:04,800
Speaker 10: time quality time together down in the forest leading up

2593
02:26:04,840 --> 02:26:08,000
Speaker 10: to the mass action on the morning of Monday, November thirteenth.

2594
02:26:08,560 --> 02:26:11,240
Speaker 11: If people have resources.

2595
02:26:10,680 --> 02:26:14,120
Speaker 10: They would like to donate to the movement, whether that

2596
02:26:14,200 --> 02:26:17,480
Speaker 10: be in the form of in person housing. Has helped

2597
02:26:17,480 --> 02:26:21,720
Speaker 10: with transportation, help with collective cooking processes, help with social

2598
02:26:21,800 --> 02:26:25,320
Speaker 10: media outreach, journalistic outreach, help with just thinking through this

2599
02:26:25,400 --> 02:26:28,840
Speaker 10: thing right and how we can make it as empowering

2600
02:26:28,840 --> 02:26:33,680
Speaker 10: and successful as possible and help sort of allow this

2601
02:26:33,879 --> 02:26:36,959
Speaker 10: to once again raise the bar for what it means

2602
02:26:37,280 --> 02:26:41,840
Speaker 10: to fight against deforestation, to fight against over policing in

2603
02:26:41,879 --> 02:26:44,520
Speaker 10: black and brown communities around the country, to fight against

2604
02:26:44,520 --> 02:26:47,720
Speaker 10: economic injustice and the attack and dignified forms of life,

2605
02:26:47,959 --> 02:26:51,640
Speaker 10: cross social movements and regions.

2606
02:26:52,320 --> 02:26:53,760
Speaker 11: You can contact us.

2607
02:26:53,760 --> 02:26:56,800
Speaker 10: Via our contact form on the web page, which you

2608
02:26:56,840 --> 02:26:59,480
Speaker 10: can find on black opsidt org, slash contact and there's

2609
02:26:59,480 --> 02:27:02,280
Speaker 10: a contact to fill out. There's also a Gmail block

2610
02:27:02,320 --> 02:27:06,480
Speaker 10: coopcityatgmail dot com. So if any of those things are

2611
02:27:06,600 --> 02:27:07,920
Speaker 10: if you want to figure out how to plug in,

2612
02:27:07,959 --> 02:27:10,680
Speaker 10: feel free to direct your correspondence to one of those channels.

2613
02:27:10,920 --> 02:27:12,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, blockcopcity dot org.

2614
02:27:13,400 --> 02:27:16,840
Speaker 12: You can watch our hype video, you can read our

2615
02:27:16,920 --> 02:27:21,400
Speaker 12: invitation to action. You can well, the tour might be

2616
02:27:21,440 --> 02:27:23,280
Speaker 12: mostly over by then, but you can look at where

2617
02:27:23,280 --> 02:27:24,000
Speaker 12: the tour has been.

2618
02:27:24,720 --> 02:27:25,400
Speaker 6: Lots of good.

2619
02:27:25,280 --> 02:27:29,520
Speaker 12: Information on that website, and there's also lots of ways

2620
02:27:29,520 --> 02:27:32,280
Speaker 12: to get in touch. So yeah, hope to see you

2621
02:27:32,320 --> 02:27:33,320
Speaker 12: all in November.

2622
02:27:34,320 --> 02:27:37,800
Speaker 10: You're cordially invited to activate an affinity group. Come down

2623
02:27:37,879 --> 02:27:42,920
Speaker 10: to November between Friday Veterans Day November tenth to Monday

2624
02:27:42,920 --> 02:27:46,920
Speaker 10: November thirteenth, and then also it's important to note that

2625
02:27:47,080 --> 02:27:49,560
Speaker 10: probably on the fourteenth and the fifteenth there'll be collective

2626
02:27:49,640 --> 02:27:52,120
Speaker 10: days of healing and anti repression work that will be

2627
02:27:52,120 --> 02:27:54,120
Speaker 10: happening citywide as well.

2628
02:27:54,280 --> 02:27:56,800
Speaker 4: That does it for us today on the show. Once again,

2629
02:27:56,840 --> 02:27:59,160
Speaker 4: thanks to Sam and Jamie for talking with me about

2630
02:27:59,160 --> 02:28:02,000
Speaker 4: this action. Hopefully you have a little bit more information

2631
02:28:02,120 --> 02:28:04,600
Speaker 4: about this than you had going into it. You can

2632
02:28:04,640 --> 02:28:08,520
Speaker 4: certainly find more information about this action and a variety

2633
02:28:08,560 --> 02:28:11,840
Speaker 4: of other opinions on the scenes. Do Noblog's website and

2634
02:28:11,959 --> 02:28:15,240
Speaker 4: other kind of anarchistic news websites if you want to

2635
02:28:15,280 --> 02:28:18,520
Speaker 4: go seeking out those other opinions. See you on the

2636
02:28:18,560 --> 02:28:34,480
Speaker 4: other side.

2637
02:28:35,280 --> 02:28:40,080
Speaker 13: Hello everybody, and welcome to it could happen here. My

2638
02:28:40,200 --> 02:28:45,200
Speaker 13: name is Sharene, and a lot has happened recently and

2639
02:28:45,320 --> 02:28:48,760
Speaker 13: we definitely need to talk about it. There's a lot

2640
02:28:48,920 --> 02:28:53,960
Speaker 13: to cover and things are changing every day. I can't

2641
02:28:54,000 --> 02:28:57,040
Speaker 13: possibly talk about everything in a thirty minute podcast episode,

2642
02:28:57,760 --> 02:29:00,400
Speaker 13: but just for context, I'm recording the bulk of this

2643
02:29:00,760 --> 02:29:05,160
Speaker 13: on Wednesday, October eleventh. There are many different things that

2644
02:29:05,200 --> 02:29:07,240
Speaker 13: we should get into, and we'll probably get into them

2645
02:29:07,280 --> 02:29:10,720
Speaker 13: in other episodes, so look forward to those. But today

2646
02:29:11,120 --> 02:29:14,480
Speaker 13: I want to talk about why exactly this attack from

2647
02:29:14,560 --> 02:29:19,840
Speaker 13: Hamas is so different and so unprecedented for many reasons,

2648
02:29:20,160 --> 02:29:23,920
Speaker 13: and why the response by Israel is also extremely unprecedented.

2649
02:29:25,160 --> 02:29:27,920
Speaker 13: There has been a lot of violence, a lot of death,

2650
02:29:28,680 --> 02:29:31,280
Speaker 13: and I thought a better way to start to learn

2651
02:29:31,320 --> 02:29:35,240
Speaker 13: about this might be with something really specific, like learning

2652
02:29:35,320 --> 02:29:38,680
Speaker 13: about the border fence that has been cajing in Gaza

2653
02:29:38,760 --> 02:29:42,800
Speaker 13: for years, why Israel thought it was so impermeable, and

2654
02:29:42,879 --> 02:29:46,240
Speaker 13: how they were wrong. So let's begin the video and

2655
02:29:46,320 --> 02:29:50,360
Speaker 13: images going around on social media of a bulldozer breaking

2656
02:29:50,400 --> 02:29:53,359
Speaker 13: through a portion of the fence that has long enclosed

2657
02:29:53,360 --> 02:29:58,680
Speaker 13: the Gaza stript for years, this cage that surrounds that territory,

2658
02:29:59,560 --> 02:30:02,600
Speaker 13: the image of a bulldozer there's running straight through it

2659
02:30:02,760 --> 02:30:06,320
Speaker 13: and Palestinians running to the other side. I don't think

2660
02:30:06,360 --> 02:30:11,039
Speaker 13: you can find anything better to represent the long history

2661
02:30:11,240 --> 02:30:15,920
Speaker 13: of Israeli Palestinian tensions, the decades of brutal Israeli occupation,

2662
02:30:16,840 --> 02:30:20,320
Speaker 13: the recurrent Hamas bombings and rocket strikes, and the political

2663
02:30:20,640 --> 02:30:25,320
Speaker 13: deterioration on both sides than this image. No one thought

2664
02:30:25,400 --> 02:30:29,680
Speaker 13: this was going to happen. Professor Clive Jones, director of

2665
02:30:29,760 --> 02:30:33,760
Speaker 13: Institute for Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies at Durham University, said,

2666
02:30:34,320 --> 02:30:37,160
Speaker 13: this is the first time since nineteen forty eight that

2667
02:30:37,240 --> 02:30:41,640
Speaker 13: any Palestinian militant movement has taken territory in Israel proper

2668
02:30:42,240 --> 02:30:46,880
Speaker 13: that symbolic victory and defeat for Israel will resonate across

2669
02:30:46,920 --> 02:30:51,320
Speaker 13: the region. So on the morning of October seventh, there

2670
02:30:51,440 --> 02:30:55,080
Speaker 13: was a surprise attack from Hamas against Israel. What happened

2671
02:30:55,200 --> 02:30:58,560
Speaker 13: was a colossal failure of Israeli intelligence as well as

2672
02:30:58,600 --> 02:31:02,119
Speaker 13: the Israeli government. I'll go into this in more detail

2673
02:31:02,120 --> 02:31:05,320
Speaker 13: in a bit, but in this surprise attack, resistance fighters

2674
02:31:05,320 --> 02:31:08,520
Speaker 13: were entering an up to twenty nine different locations outside

2675
02:31:08,560 --> 02:31:13,320
Speaker 13: the Gaza Strip. Most significantly, fighters tore through the border fence,

2676
02:31:13,400 --> 02:31:16,520
Speaker 13: which has also been called the Iron Wall. They knocked

2677
02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:19,720
Speaker 13: it aside with bulldozers, drove right through it with jeeps

2678
02:31:19,760 --> 02:31:23,480
Speaker 13: and motorcycles. Other Hamas fighters sailed right over it with

2679
02:31:23,600 --> 02:31:26,720
Speaker 13: fan powered gliders, and others hopped on boats to try

2680
02:31:26,720 --> 02:31:30,400
Speaker 13: to reach the other side by sea. A crucial component

2681
02:31:30,440 --> 02:31:33,200
Speaker 13: of Israel's defense from an attack like this, or at

2682
02:31:33,240 --> 02:31:37,320
Speaker 13: least it was supposed to be, was this sophisticated border fence.

2683
02:31:38,360 --> 02:31:42,840
Speaker 13: I want to talk about how exactly Israel came to

2684
02:31:42,920 --> 02:31:45,959
Speaker 13: build this fence, because throughout most of its history, the

2685
02:31:46,000 --> 02:31:49,240
Speaker 13: IDF did not want much to do with defensive measures.

2686
02:31:49,840 --> 02:31:55,119
Speaker 13: Its traditional security concept rested on three complimentary pillars, the terrents,

2687
02:31:55,360 --> 02:32:00,600
Speaker 13: early warning, and decisive battlefield victory. Guided by the concept,

2688
02:32:00,840 --> 02:32:05,080
Speaker 13: the IDF built offensive power designed to deter enemies from

2689
02:32:05,120 --> 02:32:08,680
Speaker 13: attacking and intelligence raised in order to detect when that

2690
02:32:08,720 --> 02:32:11,800
Speaker 13: deterns had eroded. If it was unable to convince the

2691
02:32:11,840 --> 02:32:14,960
Speaker 13: other side that it was better off avoiding conflict, the

2692
02:32:14,959 --> 02:32:18,600
Speaker 13: IDF would bring the full might of its offensive capabilities

2693
02:32:18,800 --> 02:32:22,199
Speaker 13: in search of a rapid and decisive quote unquote victory,

2694
02:32:23,200 --> 02:32:25,120
Speaker 13: which just means they would end up killing a lot

2695
02:32:25,160 --> 02:32:28,600
Speaker 13: of people. They would fly in cities and masker hundreds

2696
02:32:28,640 --> 02:32:31,520
Speaker 13: of people in order to essentially make the other side

2697
02:32:31,640 --> 02:32:34,840
Speaker 13: lose all hope and not fight back, and if they did,

2698
02:32:35,280 --> 02:32:38,480
Speaker 13: to tell them never to fight back again. This would,

2699
02:32:38,720 --> 02:32:43,520
Speaker 13: according to this concept, initially strengthen the terrens. The idea

2700
02:32:43,560 --> 02:32:47,240
Speaker 13: of defense for Israel began sneaking into the conversation in

2701
02:32:47,280 --> 02:32:51,160
Speaker 13: the nineteen sixties, as Israel considered purchasing the Hawk surface

2702
02:32:51,240 --> 02:32:54,560
Speaker 13: to air missile system from the US. This idea had

2703
02:32:54,600 --> 02:32:58,280
Speaker 13: some opposition at the highest level of the IDF. Air

2704
02:32:58,360 --> 02:33:02,119
Speaker 13: Force Commander Ezer Wiseman opposed the idea on the grounds

2705
02:33:02,120 --> 02:33:05,240
Speaker 13: that it would give Israel's political chiefs an excuse to

2706
02:33:05,280 --> 02:33:10,080
Speaker 13: avoid the bold offensive operations, in this case, surprise airstrikes

2707
02:33:10,080 --> 02:33:13,320
Speaker 13: that would take out entire buildings, which he viewed as

2708
02:33:13,360 --> 02:33:17,280
Speaker 13: necessary to win a war in the end, though five

2709
02:33:17,400 --> 02:33:21,160
Speaker 13: Hawk missile batteries were purchased just before the nineteen sixty

2710
02:33:21,200 --> 02:33:25,600
Speaker 13: seven Six Day War for thirty million dollars. The first

2711
02:33:25,720 --> 02:33:29,360
Speaker 13: makings of the present day security fence began in nineteen

2712
02:33:29,440 --> 02:33:32,760
Speaker 13: ninety four, after the signing of the Interim Agreement on

2713
02:33:32,800 --> 02:33:36,040
Speaker 13: the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, when Israel constructed

2714
02:33:36,080 --> 02:33:40,039
Speaker 13: a forty mile fence along its boundary with Eastern Palestine.

2715
02:33:40,440 --> 02:33:43,360
Speaker 13: The construction was completed in nineteen ninety six, though it

2716
02:33:43,400 --> 02:33:48,000
Speaker 13: didn't necessarily represent a hard border. In two thousand and five,

2717
02:33:48,200 --> 02:33:51,840
Speaker 13: under former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel carried out a

2718
02:33:51,879 --> 02:33:55,880
Speaker 13: disengagement from Gaza, which included, among other things, pulling out

2719
02:33:55,879 --> 02:33:59,800
Speaker 13: its troops. This meant that the one kilometer buffer zone

2720
02:33:59,800 --> 02:34:02,960
Speaker 13: that the Israeli Defence forces maintained after the first fence

2721
02:34:03,040 --> 02:34:05,760
Speaker 13: was torn down by Gozens in two thousand was no

2722
02:34:05,840 --> 02:34:09,640
Speaker 13: longer a possibility. A plan for an alternate forty five

2723
02:34:09,720 --> 02:34:12,480
Speaker 13: fence a few dozen meters east of the original fence,

2724
02:34:12,959 --> 02:34:17,160
Speaker 13: entirely on Israeli land, was then developed. The present day

2725
02:34:17,280 --> 02:34:21,039
Speaker 13: forty mile long barricade has several sections. A twenty foot

2726
02:34:21,120 --> 02:34:24,080
Speaker 13: high smart fence, which is the over the ground fence

2727
02:34:25,000 --> 02:34:28,520
Speaker 13: with a maritime section manned by sensors to detect encouragements

2728
02:34:28,560 --> 02:34:32,199
Speaker 13: from the water, and an underground wall of classified depth

2729
02:34:32,360 --> 02:34:37,320
Speaker 13: and thickness with sensors to detect any digging. The overground barrier,

2730
02:34:37,360 --> 02:34:39,720
Speaker 13: which makes up eighty one percent of the fence, is

2731
02:34:39,760 --> 02:34:43,600
Speaker 13: supported by a complex network of cameras, radar systems, as

2732
02:34:43,600 --> 02:34:46,840
Speaker 13: well as command and control rooms. One hundred and forty

2733
02:34:46,920 --> 02:34:50,120
Speaker 13: thousand tons of iron and steel were used in the

2734
02:34:50,160 --> 02:34:53,480
Speaker 13: construction of the underground wall, which took three and a

2735
02:34:53,520 --> 02:34:57,039
Speaker 13: half years to complete. The total cost of the project

2736
02:34:57,240 --> 02:35:02,040
Speaker 13: is estimated at one point eleven billion dollar. The project

2737
02:35:02,080 --> 02:35:05,160
Speaker 13: of the quote unquote smart fence was publicly announced in

2738
02:35:05,200 --> 02:35:08,600
Speaker 13: twenty sixteen, and in twenty twenty one, Israel announced the

2739
02:35:08,640 --> 02:35:13,240
Speaker 13: completion of the smart fence, which included an underground concrete barrier.

2740
02:35:14,000 --> 02:35:16,800
Speaker 13: This addition, which I feel like is important to mention,

2741
02:35:17,400 --> 02:35:21,640
Speaker 13: was because Hamas used underground tunnels to blind side Israeli forces.

2742
02:35:21,640 --> 02:35:25,240
Speaker 13: In twenty fourteen, access near the fence on the Gaza

2743
02:35:25,320 --> 02:35:28,280
Speaker 13: side was limited to farmers who were on foot. On

2744
02:35:28,320 --> 02:35:31,960
Speaker 13: the Israeli side, observation towers and sand dunes were put

2745
02:35:31,959 --> 02:35:36,360
Speaker 13: in place to monitor threats and slow intruders. With the

2746
02:35:36,400 --> 02:35:39,440
Speaker 13: announcement of its completion in twenty twenty one, the then

2747
02:35:39,520 --> 02:35:42,840
Speaker 13: Defence Minister Benny Gantz said, the barrier placed a quote

2748
02:35:42,879 --> 02:35:48,360
Speaker 13: iron wall between Hamas and southern Israel. But on October seventh,

2749
02:35:48,400 --> 02:35:52,680
Speaker 13: as we saw, the wall failed massively and a surprise

2750
02:35:52,879 --> 02:35:56,720
Speaker 13: series of coordinated efforts enabled Tamas to get past the wall.

2751
02:35:57,360 --> 02:36:00,480
Speaker 13: The fence was breached at twenty nine points, according to

2752
02:36:00,560 --> 02:36:04,520
Speaker 13: the IDF. There were also Israeli guard towers positioned at

2753
02:36:04,600 --> 02:36:07,720
Speaker 13: every five hundred feet along the perimeter of the wall

2754
02:36:07,800 --> 02:36:11,199
Speaker 13: at some certain points, and the Hamas fighters there appeared

2755
02:36:11,280 --> 02:36:15,680
Speaker 13: to encounter very little resistance. It soon became apparent that

2756
02:36:15,720 --> 02:36:19,560
Speaker 13: the border was minimally staffed, with much of Israel's military

2757
02:36:19,720 --> 02:36:22,520
Speaker 13: diverted to focus on the unrest in the West Bank.

2758
02:36:23,120 --> 02:36:26,680
Speaker 13: Matthew Levitt is the director of the counter Terrorism Program

2759
02:36:26,760 --> 02:36:30,200
Speaker 13: at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. He said

2760
02:36:30,760 --> 02:36:33,280
Speaker 13: the most compelling parts of the system were the ones

2761
02:36:33,320 --> 02:36:37,440
Speaker 13: that provided indicators and warnings. But you don't see in

2762
02:36:37,520 --> 02:36:40,960
Speaker 13: advance that someone is masked at the fence. It's still

2763
02:36:41,040 --> 02:36:44,840
Speaker 13: just a fence, a big fence, but just defence. Still,

2764
02:36:44,879 --> 02:36:47,880
Speaker 13: he says, the idea of a bulldozer getting that close

2765
02:36:47,920 --> 02:36:51,879
Speaker 13: to the fence at all just boggles the mind. The

2766
02:36:51,959 --> 02:36:55,920
Speaker 13: attack has been documented as the following. To put it

2767
02:36:56,040 --> 02:37:01,400
Speaker 13: very simply, using commercial drones, Hamas bombed as Raeligh observation towers,

2768
02:37:01,440 --> 02:37:06,600
Speaker 13: communications infrastructure, and weapons systems along the border. Israel said

2769
02:37:06,640 --> 02:37:10,119
Speaker 13: Hamas fired more than three thousand rockets into its territory,

2770
02:37:10,560 --> 02:37:13,560
Speaker 13: with some reaching as far as Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

2771
02:37:14,080 --> 02:37:17,720
Speaker 13: Militants also use explosives to blow up sections of the barrier,

2772
02:37:18,360 --> 02:37:21,760
Speaker 13: and men and motorbikes drove through the gaps, and then

2773
02:37:21,800 --> 02:37:25,120
Speaker 13: the bulldozers did the rest and this allowed for enough

2774
02:37:25,160 --> 02:37:29,199
Speaker 13: space for their larger vehicles to drive through. Experts said

2775
02:37:29,280 --> 02:37:32,000
Speaker 13: an attack of this magnitude with all of these elements

2776
02:37:32,120 --> 02:37:36,599
Speaker 13: would have required weeks at least of preparation and subterfuge.

2777
02:37:37,400 --> 02:37:41,080
Speaker 13: But maybe you're asking, well, why now, why did Hamas

2778
02:37:41,280 --> 02:37:45,400
Speaker 13: now decide to launch an attack of this magnitude. There

2779
02:37:45,400 --> 02:37:48,520
Speaker 13: are some clues in the name that Hamas gave the attack.

2780
02:37:48,840 --> 02:37:52,680
Speaker 13: They named it Operation of Alxa Flood. Just days before

2781
02:37:52,720 --> 02:37:56,000
Speaker 13: the attack, hundreds of Israeli settlers, with the protection of

2782
02:37:56,040 --> 02:37:59,960
Speaker 13: the Israeli forces stormed Atlexa Mosque and occupied Easter Russ.

2783
02:38:00,920 --> 02:38:04,160
Speaker 13: I've talked about this before, but this compound is a

2784
02:38:04,280 --> 02:38:08,920
Speaker 13: very important and contested religious site, and it's often very

2785
02:38:08,959 --> 02:38:12,920
Speaker 13: often a target by Israeli settlers and the IDF. And

2786
02:38:13,000 --> 02:38:16,160
Speaker 13: Hamas said it launched its attack in response to the

2787
02:38:16,160 --> 02:38:22,760
Speaker 13: desecration of Alexa. Mohammad'ef, the Rassam Brigades commander said, we

2788
02:38:22,920 --> 02:38:25,560
Speaker 13: have decided that the time has come to draw the

2789
02:38:25,600 --> 02:38:28,960
Speaker 13: line for the enemy to understand their time is up

2790
02:38:29,240 --> 02:38:33,800
Speaker 13: and they can't keep going without consequences. But again, experts

2791
02:38:33,800 --> 02:38:36,880
Speaker 13: said this plan would have taken weeks to plan. I'm

2792
02:38:36,920 --> 02:38:40,960
Speaker 13: sure the attacks on Aleximosque played a role in the attack,

2793
02:38:41,320 --> 02:38:43,640
Speaker 13: but it was probably being worked on for quite some

2794
02:38:43,760 --> 02:38:47,320
Speaker 13: time before that. And Hamas also said the attack was

2795
02:38:47,360 --> 02:38:51,520
Speaker 13: a response to decades of Israeli violence and occupation. The

2796
02:38:51,600 --> 02:38:55,080
Speaker 13: daily impact of the occupation on the lives of Palestinians

2797
02:38:55,080 --> 02:38:58,480
Speaker 13: in Gaza and other occupied territories at the West Bank

2798
02:38:58,959 --> 02:39:02,200
Speaker 13: is a huge part of this story. Let's take our

2799
02:39:02,240 --> 02:39:07,240
Speaker 13: first break before I forget no clever segue here. Just

2800
02:39:07,320 --> 02:39:12,680
Speaker 13: listen to these ads and we're back. Analysts and experts

2801
02:39:12,720 --> 02:39:16,000
Speaker 13: have been warning for months that the reality on the

2802
02:39:16,000 --> 02:39:18,840
Speaker 13: ground in Palestine and Israel was leading up to this.

2803
02:39:19,720 --> 02:39:24,279
Speaker 13: Nor Ude, a political analyst and former Palestinian Authority spokeswoman,

2804
02:39:24,480 --> 02:39:29,640
Speaker 13: said the record number of Palestinians killed, dispossessed, injured and

2805
02:39:29,720 --> 02:39:33,760
Speaker 13: traumatized by Israeli forces and settlers across the occupied West Bank,

2806
02:39:34,240 --> 02:39:38,560
Speaker 13: the continued siege on Gaza, the relentless attacks on Elxamosque,

2807
02:39:38,879 --> 02:39:42,280
Speaker 13: they were all pushing the situation towards this moment. I

2808
02:39:42,320 --> 02:39:45,400
Speaker 13: don't think anybody imagined the particulars of this moment, but

2809
02:39:45,520 --> 02:39:47,680
Speaker 13: I think everybody with a sense of what was going

2810
02:39:47,720 --> 02:39:51,920
Speaker 13: on knew that this quote unquote calm was deceiving and

2811
02:39:52,000 --> 02:39:55,560
Speaker 13: that something was going to happen, something big. And it

2812
02:39:55,680 --> 02:39:59,200
Speaker 13: did happen. The wall came down. But for the two

2813
02:39:59,280 --> 02:40:02,560
Speaker 13: point three milli million Palestinians who have been virtually trapped

2814
02:40:02,600 --> 02:40:05,280
Speaker 13: for fifteen years, as well as the Palestinians on the

2815
02:40:05,320 --> 02:40:09,240
Speaker 13: West Bank who have been constantly surveilled, having their movement restricted,

2816
02:40:09,480 --> 02:40:14,080
Speaker 13: and have experienced growing military violence, bulldozing through this fence

2817
02:40:14,320 --> 02:40:19,200
Speaker 13: means something else. While the Israeli response was feded by

2818
02:40:19,240 --> 02:40:22,160
Speaker 13: the failure of this system, making the future of all

2819
02:40:22,200 --> 02:40:25,800
Speaker 13: Palestinians even more precarious. The impact of Saturday's attack for

2820
02:40:25,879 --> 02:40:31,920
Speaker 13: Palestinians is hugely significant psychologically and symbolically. It shatters the

2821
02:40:31,959 --> 02:40:36,280
Speaker 13: idea of Israel's military superiority. It's a physical symbol of

2822
02:40:36,360 --> 02:40:38,880
Speaker 13: breaking out of the open air prison they've been held

2823
02:40:38,959 --> 02:40:41,840
Speaker 13: captive in, letting them step onto the land that they've

2824
02:40:41,840 --> 02:40:44,920
Speaker 13: been forced out of, some of them for their entire lives.

2825
02:40:45,640 --> 02:40:48,240
Speaker 13: Most of the Palestinians in Gaza are children, and they

2826
02:40:48,280 --> 02:40:51,720
Speaker 13: have only ever known life within the confines of that fence.

2827
02:40:52,240 --> 02:40:54,920
Speaker 13: So bulldozing a hole right through this fence to the

2828
02:40:54,959 --> 02:41:00,040
Speaker 13: other side will obviously have ripples in more ways than one.

2829
02:41:00,120 --> 02:41:02,199
Speaker 13: I want to mention something here that I've been thinking

2830
02:41:02,200 --> 02:41:05,400
Speaker 13: about is that Gaza is often referred to as the

2831
02:41:05,440 --> 02:41:10,040
Speaker 13: world's biggest open air prison, which is true, but I

2832
02:41:10,080 --> 02:41:14,320
Speaker 13: was thinking about it, and prison implies that they did

2833
02:41:14,360 --> 02:41:18,000
Speaker 13: a crime. They did not do a crime. The Palestinians

2834
02:41:18,120 --> 02:41:21,800
Speaker 13: are innocent. They're stuck in a cage against their will,

2835
02:41:22,480 --> 02:41:24,960
Speaker 13: and they have no way out. I think a better

2836
02:41:25,000 --> 02:41:29,680
Speaker 13: way to describe Gaza might be an open air concentration camp,

2837
02:41:29,920 --> 02:41:33,560
Speaker 13: the biggest open air concentration camp period. It's just something

2838
02:41:33,560 --> 02:41:35,600
Speaker 13: I've been thinking about because I feel like open air

2839
02:41:35,680 --> 02:41:39,760
Speaker 13: prison implies they're all criminals and they're not. So just

2840
02:41:39,840 --> 02:41:43,480
Speaker 13: something to think about when it comes to semantics and

2841
02:41:43,520 --> 02:41:47,120
Speaker 13: the power of words, I suppose, even if it's subconscious.

2842
02:41:48,480 --> 02:41:51,640
Speaker 13: Gaza has been under a land, sea and air blockade

2843
02:41:51,680 --> 02:41:54,640
Speaker 13: since two thousand and seven. More than two point three

2844
02:41:54,760 --> 02:41:58,560
Speaker 13: million Palestinians live there, all crammed in and they cannot

2845
02:41:58,680 --> 02:42:03,800
Speaker 13: leave without Israeli permission, which very few people get. Hamas

2846
02:42:03,920 --> 02:42:06,400
Speaker 13: is a political and armed group that took control of

2847
02:42:06,440 --> 02:42:09,720
Speaker 13: two thousand and six, and there hasn't been an election since.

2848
02:42:10,760 --> 02:42:14,080
Speaker 13: It's part of a regional alliance which also includes Iran

2849
02:42:14,200 --> 02:42:17,640
Speaker 13: and the armed group has Bela and Lebanon. Hamas has

2850
02:42:17,640 --> 02:42:21,160
Speaker 13: been designated a terrorist organization by Israel, the US, and

2851
02:42:21,200 --> 02:42:24,560
Speaker 13: the EU, among many others. We'll be doing a history

2852
02:42:24,879 --> 02:42:28,360
Speaker 13: more in depth about Hamas soon, but it's important to

2853
02:42:28,440 --> 02:42:32,119
Speaker 13: note that Israel basically helped create it. More details will

2854
02:42:32,120 --> 02:42:35,960
Speaker 13: be in that episode, obviously, but just to summarize very briefly,

2855
02:42:36,360 --> 02:42:40,640
Speaker 13: Israel bolstered Hamas's creation and funded its expansion because it

2856
02:42:40,680 --> 02:42:44,879
Speaker 13: wanted to divide the Palestinians amongst themselves and they viewed

2857
02:42:44,920 --> 02:42:49,640
Speaker 13: the leftist PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which was the

2858
02:42:49,680 --> 02:42:53,120
Speaker 13: governing party at the time, as a threat, and so

2859
02:42:53,200 --> 02:42:58,040
Speaker 13: they encouraged Haamas to flourish and thrive, which leads us

2860
02:42:58,080 --> 02:43:02,320
Speaker 13: to now again be separate episode. There is so much

2861
02:43:02,360 --> 02:43:05,840
Speaker 13: to cover and I can do it all today. Although

2862
02:43:05,840 --> 02:43:10,640
Speaker 13: the PLO used to be the dominant party decades ago,

2863
02:43:10,760 --> 02:43:14,080
Speaker 13: in recent years, the PLO and the secular FATA party

2864
02:43:14,160 --> 02:43:17,720
Speaker 13: which the PLO is centered around, is often criticized for

2865
02:43:17,800 --> 02:43:22,040
Speaker 13: being ineffective, and so many Palestinians see Hamas as the

2866
02:43:22,080 --> 02:43:24,920
Speaker 13: most active group when it comes to resistance against the

2867
02:43:25,040 --> 02:43:30,080
Speaker 13: violent Israeli occupation. Palestinians have lived in violent occupation for

2868
02:43:30,120 --> 02:43:33,920
Speaker 13: seventy six years and the world has largely done nothing.

2869
02:43:34,840 --> 02:43:39,320
Speaker 13: Palestinians have no outside support whatsoever, and no one is

2870
02:43:39,360 --> 02:43:43,200
Speaker 13: coming to their aid or rescue. They unfortunately only have

2871
02:43:43,480 --> 02:43:47,680
Speaker 13: this militant group because of this, and also just a

2872
02:43:47,720 --> 02:43:52,480
Speaker 13: reminder that Palestine has actually tried everything and that violence

2873
02:43:52,600 --> 02:43:57,400
Speaker 13: is not their first resort. Many Palestinians don't even support Hamas.

2874
02:43:58,520 --> 02:44:03,240
Speaker 13: Let's not forget about BDS, which is a Palestinian nonviolent

2875
02:44:03,320 --> 02:44:07,160
Speaker 13: movement which calls for boycott, divestment and sanctions for Israel.

2876
02:44:08,040 --> 02:44:12,520
Speaker 13: BDS is now deemed illegal. In twenty twenty one, thirty

2877
02:44:12,520 --> 02:44:17,720
Speaker 13: five states passed anti BDS laws, so even boycotting Israeli

2878
02:44:17,760 --> 02:44:22,680
Speaker 13: products is suddenly illegal. So that was BDS. People are

2879
02:44:22,680 --> 02:44:25,400
Speaker 13: obviously still engaged in BDS, and I encourage everyone to

2880
02:44:25,440 --> 02:44:29,440
Speaker 13: read more about it, because divestment and sanctions work. It

2881
02:44:29,480 --> 02:44:33,320
Speaker 13: worked in South Africa, but here we are. And then

2882
02:44:33,480 --> 02:44:37,440
Speaker 13: in twenty eighteen, Palestinians in Gaza mounted the Great March

2883
02:44:37,520 --> 02:44:41,840
Speaker 13: of Return to show the world their plight. Day after

2884
02:44:41,959 --> 02:44:47,360
Speaker 13: day they walked unarmed to Israeli's military fences around Gaza.

2885
02:44:47,840 --> 02:44:52,480
Speaker 13: How did Israel respond to this non violent protest. They

2886
02:44:52,560 --> 02:44:57,119
Speaker 13: shot eight thousand Palestinians with live ammunition, killed two hundred

2887
02:44:57,160 --> 02:45:00,959
Speaker 13: and twenty people and wounded thirty six. One thousand, one

2888
02:45:01,040 --> 02:45:06,080
Speaker 13: hundred and forty three. Palestinians are getting killed regardless of

2889
02:45:06,120 --> 02:45:10,320
Speaker 13: the existence of Hamas, because Israel bombing Gaza isn't actually

2890
02:45:10,360 --> 02:45:15,680
Speaker 13: about Hamas but occupation and ethnic cleansing. Israel and Hamas

2891
02:45:15,720 --> 02:45:19,320
Speaker 13: have fought many on and off quote unquote wars. I say,

2892
02:45:19,400 --> 02:45:22,720
Speaker 13: quote unquote because it's not a war if only one

2893
02:45:22,760 --> 02:45:25,560
Speaker 13: side has an army, and I personally really hate when

2894
02:45:25,560 --> 02:45:28,600
Speaker 13: it's referred to as a war because it's falsely portraying

2895
02:45:28,680 --> 02:45:31,840
Speaker 13: an occupation as an equal fight when there's actually an

2896
02:45:31,840 --> 02:45:36,320
Speaker 13: oppressor and an oppressed. But regardless, the last big war

2897
02:45:36,760 --> 02:45:39,120
Speaker 13: Israel had had with Hamas was in twenty twenty one.

2898
02:45:39,840 --> 02:45:42,520
Speaker 13: In the past, it's usually been an exchange of fire

2899
02:45:42,600 --> 02:45:46,840
Speaker 13: across the Gaza border. Hamas launches rockets into Israel, Israel

2900
02:45:46,879 --> 02:45:50,480
Speaker 13: drops more bombs on Gaza. Hamas launches rockets into Israel,

2901
02:45:50,760 --> 02:45:54,440
Speaker 13: Israel drops more bombs on Gaza, and so on. Usually

2902
02:45:54,480 --> 02:45:57,600
Speaker 13: this results in a huge civilian death toll in Gaza,

2903
02:45:58,040 --> 02:46:02,040
Speaker 13: with Israel bombing entire residential buildings and killing entire families

2904
02:46:02,160 --> 02:46:05,879
Speaker 13: and hundreds of children. And just a reminder here that

2905
02:46:06,000 --> 02:46:10,160
Speaker 13: Gaza does not have an iron dome to defend itself.

2906
02:46:10,600 --> 02:46:14,360
Speaker 13: When Israel bombs Gaza, it does so knowing it is

2907
02:46:14,520 --> 02:46:19,240
Speaker 13: very densely populated and filled with hundreds of innocent people

2908
02:46:19,720 --> 02:46:22,600
Speaker 13: that have nothing to do with Hamas. They drop bombs

2909
02:46:22,640 --> 02:46:27,680
Speaker 13: on buildings, hospitals, schools, nothing is off limits. I don't

2910
02:46:27,680 --> 02:46:29,480
Speaker 13: have to remind you, or maybe I do that they've

2911
02:46:29,480 --> 02:46:33,240
Speaker 13: also killed members of the press clearly wearing press vests.

2912
02:46:34,080 --> 02:46:36,840
Speaker 13: But I guess that's another topic for another day. What

2913
02:46:37,000 --> 02:46:40,320
Speaker 13: happened this time around with the attack that Hamas launched

2914
02:46:40,320 --> 02:46:44,960
Speaker 13: on October seventh was very different, though it's repeatedly been

2915
02:46:45,000 --> 02:46:48,480
Speaker 13: called unprecedented, and this is true for a few reasons,

2916
02:46:48,879 --> 02:46:52,120
Speaker 13: One because of the scale of the attack that Hamas launched,

2917
02:46:52,600 --> 02:46:56,400
Speaker 13: and two because nobody really saw it coming. As of

2918
02:46:56,440 --> 02:46:59,880
Speaker 13: this recording, more than one thousand and two hundreds of

2919
02:47:00,000 --> 02:47:04,000
Speaker 13: Israelis and foreign nationals, the majority of whom were civilians,

2920
02:47:04,720 --> 02:47:09,040
Speaker 13: were killed and more than three thousand were wounded. Hamas

2921
02:47:09,080 --> 02:47:11,800
Speaker 13: also said that it captured more than one hundred Israelis,

2922
02:47:11,840 --> 02:47:17,680
Speaker 13: including some senior military officers. Nothing like this, especially at

2923
02:47:17,720 --> 02:47:20,879
Speaker 13: this magnitude, has happened since two thousand and six, when

2924
02:47:20,879 --> 02:47:25,360
Speaker 13: Hamas captured one Israeli soldier, Galatschilit and held him in

2925
02:47:25,400 --> 02:47:29,760
Speaker 13: Gaza for five years. And in three days after Hamas

2926
02:47:29,879 --> 02:47:32,640
Speaker 13: launched this attack on October seventh, there were still gun

2927
02:47:32,720 --> 02:47:36,400
Speaker 13: battles going on between Hamas fighters and Israeli forces in

2928
02:47:36,440 --> 02:47:40,840
Speaker 13: the three main areas in southern Israel, and despite verified

2929
02:47:40,840 --> 02:47:45,160
Speaker 13: footage and reporting from Gaza that indisputably shows countless Palestinian

2930
02:47:45,240 --> 02:47:48,840
Speaker 13: children who Israel has killed so far. Israel's murder of

2931
02:47:48,879 --> 02:47:52,879
Speaker 13: Palestinian children is receiving little to no media attention in

2932
02:47:52,920 --> 02:47:58,359
Speaker 13: the US or globally, but they create the worst possible

2933
02:47:58,480 --> 02:48:03,359
Speaker 13: enemy the world, supports the destruction of an entire people,

2934
02:48:04,200 --> 02:48:07,040
Speaker 13: And as an Arab, I want to mention that it's

2935
02:48:07,040 --> 02:48:10,200
Speaker 13: really hard to see all of this play out, and

2936
02:48:10,240 --> 02:48:12,120
Speaker 13: if you have any Arab friends, I'm sure they're going

2937
02:48:12,160 --> 02:48:16,320
Speaker 13: through it too, especially if they're Palestinian, because it's almost

2938
02:48:16,360 --> 02:48:19,560
Speaker 13: like deja vus of what happened after nine to eleven,

2939
02:48:20,320 --> 02:48:22,720
Speaker 13: and what happened after nine to eleven didn't really stop.

2940
02:48:22,840 --> 02:48:24,760
Speaker 13: To be honest, it's not like a somophobia took a

2941
02:48:24,800 --> 02:48:27,360
Speaker 13: break and then came back. It's always been there, but

2942
02:48:27,480 --> 02:48:32,200
Speaker 13: now it's very shameless and disgusting, and it makes no

2943
02:48:32,280 --> 02:48:35,440
Speaker 13: attempt to cover itself because it's not only ignored, but

2944
02:48:35,720 --> 02:48:39,240
Speaker 13: encouraged in order to validate the actions of the US

2945
02:48:39,320 --> 02:48:43,360
Speaker 13: military and the Israeli military. Another reason for this all

2946
02:48:43,360 --> 02:48:47,480
Speaker 13: being so unprecedented is Israel's failure to stop it from happening.

2947
02:48:48,400 --> 02:48:50,960
Speaker 13: The Israeli Army is one of the world's most sophisticated

2948
02:48:51,040 --> 02:48:53,959
Speaker 13: military and intelligence organizations as well as one of the

2949
02:48:53,959 --> 02:48:56,800
Speaker 13: most powerful armies in the world. Because of the United

2950
02:48:56,840 --> 02:49:00,400
Speaker 13: States support and billions of dollars in funding, any kind

2951
02:49:00,440 --> 02:49:02,840
Speaker 13: of communication going in and out of Gaza, at least

2952
02:49:02,840 --> 02:49:06,160
Speaker 13: in theory, would be listened to by Israel's intelligence units.

2953
02:49:06,520 --> 02:49:11,199
Speaker 13: And again, the offence is heavily militarized, but still it collapsed.

2954
02:49:11,920 --> 02:49:14,680
Speaker 13: I think another significant result of this, which I kind

2955
02:49:14,720 --> 02:49:17,720
Speaker 13: of touched on earlier, is that this successful attack from

2956
02:49:17,800 --> 02:49:22,000
Speaker 13: Hamas completely undermines the never endingly talked about power of

2957
02:49:22,040 --> 02:49:25,320
Speaker 13: Israel and the power of their army and military, especially

2958
02:49:25,440 --> 02:49:29,280
Speaker 13: their capability in the region. It kind of disrupts their

2959
02:49:29,440 --> 02:49:32,680
Speaker 13: entire image in a way. I also want to quickly

2960
02:49:32,720 --> 02:49:36,920
Speaker 13: mention that the claim that Hamas's attack was unprovoked is

2961
02:49:36,959 --> 02:49:41,240
Speaker 13: ignoring the years of brutal occupation and exactly why they

2962
02:49:41,280 --> 02:49:44,240
Speaker 13: attacked in the first place. It was a surprise, yes,

2963
02:49:44,680 --> 02:49:47,160
Speaker 13: but I would never say it was unprovoked, because you

2964
02:49:47,200 --> 02:49:50,640
Speaker 13: can't keep someone in captivity their entire lifetime and expect

2965
02:49:50,720 --> 02:49:54,800
Speaker 13: them to hug it out. And maybe what I'm saying

2966
02:49:54,920 --> 02:49:59,400
Speaker 13: sounds radical to you, especially by the standards of American media,

2967
02:50:00,240 --> 02:50:03,920
Speaker 13: but here is this award winning Israeli journalist and writer

2968
02:50:04,200 --> 02:50:09,160
Speaker 13: Gideon Levy. He wrote an incredible piece about what's happening

2969
02:50:09,280 --> 02:50:12,760
Speaker 13: right now. He writes opinion pieces in a weekly column

2970
02:50:12,800 --> 02:50:16,840
Speaker 13: for Herits, and he focuses particularly on the Israeli occupation

2971
02:50:16,959 --> 02:50:20,640
Speaker 13: of Palestine, and he has won awards for his articles

2972
02:50:20,680 --> 02:50:25,560
Speaker 13: on human rights. He wrote an incredibly moving, powerful piece

2973
02:50:25,840 --> 02:50:30,760
Speaker 13: called Israel can't imprison two million Gozzens without paying a

2974
02:50:30,840 --> 02:50:34,720
Speaker 13: cruel price. I want to read excerpts from this because

2975
02:50:34,800 --> 02:50:37,720
Speaker 13: he is speaking as an Israeli and I think it's

2976
02:50:37,760 --> 02:50:41,880
Speaker 13: extremely important to hear what he has to say. Behind

2977
02:50:41,959 --> 02:50:45,800
Speaker 13: all this lies Israeli arrogance, the idea that we can

2978
02:50:45,879 --> 02:50:48,560
Speaker 13: do whatever we like that will never pay the price

2979
02:50:48,680 --> 02:50:52,080
Speaker 13: and never be punished for it, will carry on undisturbed.

2980
02:50:53,000 --> 02:50:57,920
Speaker 13: We'll arrest, kill, harass, dispossess, and protect the settlers busy

2981
02:50:57,959 --> 02:51:01,680
Speaker 13: with their programs. Will fire at innocent people, take out

2982
02:51:01,680 --> 02:51:06,000
Speaker 13: people's eyes and smash their faces, expel, confiscate, rob grab

2983
02:51:06,040 --> 02:51:08,720
Speaker 13: people from their beds, carry out ethnic cleansing, and of

2984
02:51:08,760 --> 02:51:12,360
Speaker 13: course continue with the unbelievable siege of the Gaza Strip

2985
02:51:12,680 --> 02:51:16,280
Speaker 13: and everything will be all right. We'll build a terrifying

2986
02:51:16,320 --> 02:51:19,760
Speaker 13: obstacle around Gaza and we'll be safe. Will rely on

2987
02:51:19,840 --> 02:51:23,200
Speaker 13: the geniuses of the Army's eighty two hundred cyber intelligence

2988
02:51:23,280 --> 02:51:27,080
Speaker 13: unit and on the Shinbet Security Service agents who know everything.

2989
02:51:27,520 --> 02:51:30,640
Speaker 13: Fe'll warn us in time. It turns out that even

2990
02:51:30,720 --> 02:51:34,880
Speaker 13: the world's most sophisticated and expensive obstacle can be breached

2991
02:51:35,080 --> 02:51:38,480
Speaker 13: with a smoky old bulldozer when the motivation is great.

2992
02:51:39,280 --> 02:51:42,320
Speaker 13: This arrogant barrier can be crossed by bicycle and moped,

2993
02:51:42,520 --> 02:51:45,520
Speaker 13: despite the billions poured into it and all the famous

2994
02:51:45,560 --> 02:51:50,280
Speaker 13: experts and fat cat contractors, we thought, we'd continue to

2995
02:51:50,280 --> 02:51:52,760
Speaker 13: go down to Gaza, scatter a few crumbs in the

2996
02:51:52,800 --> 02:51:56,360
Speaker 13: form of tens of thousands of Israeli work permits, always

2997
02:51:56,400 --> 02:51:59,600
Speaker 13: contingent on good behavior, and still keep them in prison.

2998
02:52:00,320 --> 02:52:03,200
Speaker 13: We'll make peace with Saudi Arabia and the United Emirates,

2999
02:52:03,440 --> 02:52:06,920
Speaker 13: and the Palestinians will be forgotten until they're erased, as

3000
02:52:07,000 --> 02:52:11,160
Speaker 13: quite a few Israelians would like. We'll keep holding thousands

3001
02:52:11,200 --> 02:52:15,440
Speaker 13: of Palestinian prisoners, some without trial, most of them political prisoners,

3002
02:52:16,080 --> 02:52:19,119
Speaker 13: and we won't agree to discuss their release, even after

3003
02:52:19,240 --> 02:52:22,680
Speaker 13: they've been in prison for decades. We'll tell them that

3004
02:52:22,760 --> 02:52:26,199
Speaker 13: only by force will their prisoners see freedom. We thought

3005
02:52:26,200 --> 02:52:30,040
Speaker 13: we would arrogantly keep rejecting any attempt at a diplomatic solution,

3006
02:52:30,680 --> 02:52:32,640
Speaker 13: only because we don't want to deal with all that,

3007
02:52:32,840 --> 02:52:37,160
Speaker 13: and everything will continue that way forever. Once again, it

3008
02:52:37,240 --> 02:52:40,280
Speaker 13: was proved that this isn't how it is. A few

3009
02:52:40,400 --> 02:52:44,200
Speaker 13: hundred armed Palestinians breached the barrier and invaded Israel in

3010
02:52:44,240 --> 02:52:48,000
Speaker 13: a way no Israeli imagine possible. A few hundred people

3011
02:52:48,080 --> 02:52:52,439
Speaker 13: proved that it's impossible to imprison two million people forever

3012
02:52:53,080 --> 02:52:56,560
Speaker 13: without paying a cruel price. Just as the smoky old

3013
02:52:56,600 --> 02:53:01,480
Speaker 13: Palestinian bulldozer tore through the world's smartest barrier, it tore

3014
02:53:01,560 --> 02:53:05,640
Speaker 13: away at Israel's arrogance and complacency. And that's also how

3015
02:53:05,720 --> 02:53:07,880
Speaker 13: it tore away at the idea that it's enough to

3016
02:53:08,000 --> 02:53:11,480
Speaker 13: occasionally attack Gaza with suicide drones and sell them to

3017
02:53:11,560 --> 02:53:16,280
Speaker 13: half the world to maintain security. On Saturday, Israel saw

3018
02:53:16,320 --> 02:53:21,640
Speaker 13: pictures it has never seen before, Palestinian vehicles patrolling gets cities,

3019
02:53:21,760 --> 02:53:25,480
Speaker 13: bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear

3020
02:53:25,560 --> 02:53:29,400
Speaker 13: away at that arrogance. The Gaza. Palestinians have decided they're

3021
02:53:29,440 --> 02:53:33,480
Speaker 13: willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom.

3022
02:53:33,760 --> 02:53:34,800
Speaker 13: Is there any hope in that?

3023
02:53:35,480 --> 02:53:35,640
Speaker 7: No?

3024
02:53:36,440 --> 02:53:41,080
Speaker 13: Will Israel learn its lesson? No, On Saturday, they were

3025
02:53:41,080 --> 02:53:44,840
Speaker 13: already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about

3026
02:53:44,879 --> 02:53:48,400
Speaker 13: occupying the strip and punishing Gaza, quote as it has

3027
02:53:48,480 --> 02:53:52,760
Speaker 13: never been punished before. But Israel hasn't stopped punishing Gaza

3028
02:53:52,800 --> 02:53:56,800
Speaker 13: since nineteen forty eight, not for a moment. After seventy

3029
02:53:56,840 --> 02:54:00,720
Speaker 13: five years of abuse. The worst possible scenario awaits it

3030
02:54:00,760 --> 02:54:05,440
Speaker 13: once again. The threats of flattening Gaza prove only one thing.

3031
02:54:06,320 --> 02:54:09,680
Speaker 13: We haven't learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay,

3032
02:54:10,120 --> 02:54:13,200
Speaker 13: even though Israel is paying a high price once again.

3033
02:54:14,320 --> 02:54:18,080
Speaker 13: Prime Minister Benjamin N. Yaho bears a very great responsibility

3034
02:54:18,080 --> 02:54:21,000
Speaker 13: for what happened, and he must pay that price. But

3035
02:54:21,120 --> 02:54:23,520
Speaker 13: it didn't start with him, and it won't end after

3036
02:54:23,600 --> 02:54:27,000
Speaker 13: he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the

3037
02:54:27,040 --> 02:54:31,640
Speaker 13: Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza. Gaza,

3038
02:54:32,040 --> 02:54:36,480
Speaker 13: most of whose residents are refugees created by Israel, Gaza,

3039
02:54:37,080 --> 02:54:40,959
Speaker 13: which has never known a single day of freedom. I

3040
02:54:41,080 --> 02:54:42,840
Speaker 13: just think that piece is very powerful, and I know

3041
02:54:42,879 --> 02:54:45,760
Speaker 13: I read a good chunk of it. But I think

3042
02:54:45,800 --> 02:54:51,520
Speaker 13: it's important to hear, especially from an Israeli as he mentioned, Israel,

3043
02:54:51,800 --> 02:54:55,199
Speaker 13: because of this, has responded to the attack with extreme force.

3044
02:54:56,080 --> 02:54:59,199
Speaker 13: Prime Minister a little Bitchna and Yahoo said the enemy

3045
02:54:59,240 --> 02:55:04,480
Speaker 13: will pay an unprecedented price. Israel has bombed Gaza for days,

3046
02:55:04,879 --> 02:55:09,600
Speaker 13: hitting Gaza with air strikes, targeting hospitals, mosques, entire residential buildings,

3047
02:55:09,840 --> 02:55:14,279
Speaker 13: and calling Palestinians animals to the media, Israeli Defense Minister

3048
02:55:14,360 --> 02:55:18,439
Speaker 13: Yoav Galant said we are fighting animals and acting accordingly.

3049
02:55:19,640 --> 02:55:21,960
Speaker 13: Israel also said that it wants to wipe out Hamasa's

3050
02:55:22,000 --> 02:55:26,600
Speaker 13: military capability and end its control of Gaza, which doesn't

3051
02:55:26,600 --> 02:55:30,800
Speaker 13: really make sense because they're kind of targeting anything and

3052
02:55:30,840 --> 02:55:35,120
Speaker 13: now anything they can hit, including civilians, and at the

3053
02:55:35,200 --> 02:55:38,160
Speaker 13: end they want control themselves. So I think a lot

3054
02:55:38,200 --> 02:55:41,000
Speaker 13: of right wing Israeli politicians, which was most of them

3055
02:55:41,080 --> 02:55:47,080
Speaker 13: these days, say empty, stupid shit. And it also looks

3056
02:55:47,160 --> 02:55:50,160
Speaker 13: like amidst all this, that a ground invasion is likely

3057
02:55:50,200 --> 02:55:53,160
Speaker 13: going to happen because the IDF has been readying tanks

3058
02:55:53,200 --> 02:55:56,600
Speaker 13: and military jeeps. It sucks that I have to say

3059
02:55:56,640 --> 02:55:59,760
Speaker 13: this out loud, but peace should not come at the

3060
02:56:00,080 --> 02:56:04,240
Speaker 13: spence and the brutal oppression of others. There was no

3061
02:56:04,400 --> 02:56:08,199
Speaker 13: peace before this attack. The violence of the Israeli occupation

3062
02:56:08,320 --> 02:56:10,920
Speaker 13: has been there since the state was established in nineteen

3063
02:56:10,959 --> 02:56:15,119
Speaker 13: forty eight. Hamas is a direct result of that violence.

3064
02:56:15,760 --> 02:56:17,959
Speaker 13: There has never been peace in Israel because it was

3065
02:56:18,040 --> 02:56:24,599
Speaker 13: created in violence. And this clearly does not justify Hamas

3066
02:56:24,800 --> 02:56:29,959
Speaker 13: killing innocent people. That is never okay. But Israel also

3067
02:56:30,000 --> 02:56:36,240
Speaker 13: can justify killing thousands of people because of that. Abby Martin,

3068
02:56:36,280 --> 02:56:39,040
Speaker 13: who is the creator and host of the Empire Files.

3069
02:56:39,360 --> 02:56:42,000
Speaker 13: She also made the film Gaza Fights for Freedom, which

3070
02:56:42,000 --> 02:56:46,600
Speaker 13: I highly recommend. She posted this exchange on her Twitter

3071
02:56:47,000 --> 02:56:49,840
Speaker 13: between her and one of their field producers in Gaza,

3072
02:56:50,640 --> 02:56:53,920
Speaker 13: and he says, I'm scared, Abby, I feel I could

3073
02:56:54,000 --> 02:56:57,680
Speaker 13: die any second. Most of the people here lost power

3074
02:56:57,800 --> 02:57:00,320
Speaker 13: and internet connections, so we don't know where they hit.

3075
02:57:01,000 --> 02:57:04,840
Speaker 13: Entire neighborhoods are being erased. They killed twelve hundred of

3076
02:57:04,920 --> 02:57:08,199
Speaker 13: us so far and destroyed massively, and yet they say

3077
02:57:08,240 --> 02:57:12,160
Speaker 13: they have not started yet. We know massacres are coming,

3078
02:57:12,400 --> 02:57:14,680
Speaker 13: and we're sure they got the green light from the

3079
02:57:14,800 --> 02:57:18,279
Speaker 13: US to kill us all. So that is a perspective

3080
02:57:18,320 --> 02:57:22,400
Speaker 13: of someone standing in Gaza living in fear which isn't

3081
02:57:22,800 --> 02:57:26,280
Speaker 13: entirely new as far as living in fear goes, because

3082
02:57:26,280 --> 02:57:29,800
Speaker 13: that's been the reality for Gazans for decades. But this

3083
02:57:29,879 --> 02:57:33,080
Speaker 13: time it's different because it's very clear that Israel's committing

3084
02:57:33,640 --> 02:57:37,760
Speaker 13: a purposeful genocide. But they're in the dark with no

3085
02:57:37,800 --> 02:57:41,440
Speaker 13: one to help them, and I can only imagine how

3086
02:57:41,440 --> 02:57:45,119
Speaker 13: helpless and hopeless it feels. It just it breaks my heart.

3087
02:57:46,280 --> 02:57:49,959
Speaker 13: I just want to give a update, an unfortunate update,

3088
02:57:50,120 --> 02:57:56,320
Speaker 13: because things are just fucked and people keep dying. But

3089
02:57:56,480 --> 02:58:00,000
Speaker 13: I'm recording this update on the afternoon of October twelfth,

3090
02:58:00,920 --> 02:58:03,520
Speaker 13: like a day after I recorded the original stuff, and

3091
02:58:04,240 --> 02:58:07,360
Speaker 13: Israel has killed five hundred Palestinians in the Gaza Strip

3092
02:58:07,600 --> 02:58:12,320
Speaker 13: since this morning, five hundred in the last six hours

3093
02:58:12,480 --> 02:58:17,000
Speaker 13: twelve hours. Gaza's Health ministry said that one thousand, five

3094
02:58:17,080 --> 02:58:21,959
Speaker 13: hundred and thirty seven Palestinians, including five hundred children and

3095
02:58:22,040 --> 02:58:25,800
Speaker 13: two hundred and seventy six women, have been killed and

3096
02:58:25,840 --> 02:58:29,000
Speaker 13: there are almost seven thousand others wounded because of these

3097
02:58:29,080 --> 02:58:34,840
Speaker 13: Israeli air strikes. Loss of this magnitude is unsettling and overwhelming,

3098
02:58:34,879 --> 02:58:38,480
Speaker 13: and I also want to mention this is something I

3099
02:58:38,600 --> 02:58:42,480
Speaker 13: just learned. Israel has bombed the international airports of Aleppo

3100
02:58:42,600 --> 02:58:46,280
Speaker 13: in Damascus in Syria, and this has forced them out

3101
02:58:46,320 --> 02:58:49,600
Speaker 13: of service. So not only are they massacring the entire

3102
02:58:49,640 --> 02:58:54,199
Speaker 13: families in Gaza, but they're also dropping bombs on civilian

3103
02:58:54,200 --> 02:58:58,600
Speaker 13: airports in Syria. And the Western media still wants you

3104
02:58:58,680 --> 02:59:03,000
Speaker 13: to think that Israel is the victim. It bears repeating

3105
02:59:03,120 --> 02:59:06,800
Speaker 13: that Gaza is very densely populated, with two point three

3106
02:59:06,879 --> 02:59:10,840
Speaker 13: million people trapped in a very small space, unable to leave,

3107
02:59:11,240 --> 02:59:15,520
Speaker 13: with nowhere to escape to. An example of this empty,

3108
02:59:15,680 --> 02:59:20,600
Speaker 13: stupid rhetoric that Israeli politicians are saying is when Natanyahu

3109
02:59:20,680 --> 02:59:25,120
Speaker 13: said that civilians should leave and evacuate Gaza. He said

3110
02:59:25,160 --> 02:59:28,480
Speaker 13: that knowing full well that that is impossible because his

3111
02:59:28,560 --> 02:59:32,560
Speaker 13: government forbids it. He said that to the media so

3112
02:59:32,640 --> 02:59:36,119
Speaker 13: the world can see that he is just and not

3113
02:59:36,200 --> 02:59:39,240
Speaker 13: trying to attack any civilians. It's all a fucking show,

3114
02:59:39,440 --> 02:59:42,520
Speaker 13: like I guess all politics are. But it's still really

3115
02:59:42,560 --> 02:59:46,240
Speaker 13: infuriating and I hate it so much. And in Gaza,

3116
02:59:46,959 --> 02:59:50,560
Speaker 13: before all of this, before the thousands that have already died,

3117
02:59:50,879 --> 02:59:54,680
Speaker 13: there was already a blockade. They were trapped for fifteen years.

3118
02:59:55,480 --> 02:59:59,680
Speaker 13: And now in addition to this blockade, Israel has imposed

3119
02:59:59,720 --> 03:00:04,320
Speaker 13: a total siege on Gaza, inflicting collective punishment, which is

3120
03:00:04,320 --> 03:00:09,520
Speaker 13: illegal under international law. But Israel routinely commits war crimes

3121
03:00:09,560 --> 03:00:13,280
Speaker 13: and goes about its business unchecked. Why would it be

3122
03:00:13,320 --> 03:00:17,400
Speaker 13: any different this time. Remember that half of Gaza's population

3123
03:00:17,640 --> 03:00:21,360
Speaker 13: are under eighteen. Hundreds of children have been murdered, and

3124
03:00:21,440 --> 03:00:25,080
Speaker 13: horrific videos have been circulating of the destruction of Gaza,

3125
03:00:25,160 --> 03:00:28,959
Speaker 13: of bodies and babies and innocent people being pulled out

3126
03:00:28,959 --> 03:00:32,720
Speaker 13: of the rubble. I had a break down last night

3127
03:00:32,800 --> 03:00:36,720
Speaker 13: because I saw a video of a Palestinian father holding

3128
03:00:37,360 --> 03:00:40,400
Speaker 13: his dead child's corpse and hugging it for the very

3129
03:00:40,480 --> 03:00:43,720
Speaker 13: last time. And I'm very privileged to be sitting here

3130
03:00:43,760 --> 03:00:47,600
Speaker 13: recording this, And if I have difficulty processing it, I

3131
03:00:47,640 --> 03:00:52,800
Speaker 13: cannot imagine what Palestinians are going through. Israel controls everything

3132
03:00:53,000 --> 03:00:57,880
Speaker 13: in Gaza. If cut off electricity, food, water, and gas

3133
03:00:58,040 --> 03:01:03,000
Speaker 13: for an entire population, Israel is massacring Palestinians in a

3134
03:01:03,040 --> 03:01:06,600
Speaker 13: blackout on purpose, so they're unable to connect with anyone

3135
03:01:06,680 --> 03:01:10,920
Speaker 13: from the outside. No electricity also means that hospitals have

3136
03:01:11,040 --> 03:01:14,160
Speaker 13: no way of the already limited machines they have available

3137
03:01:14,200 --> 03:01:18,039
Speaker 13: to them so they can save lives. Before this, the

3138
03:01:18,080 --> 03:01:22,240
Speaker 13: water in Gaza was already ninety seven percent undrinkable, and

3139
03:01:22,280 --> 03:01:26,879
Speaker 13: now it's completely gone. This will lead to dehydration deaths,

3140
03:01:26,959 --> 03:01:32,280
Speaker 13: among many, many other deaths. Israel is starving an entire

3141
03:01:32,360 --> 03:01:37,800
Speaker 13: population live on your television, openly committing genocide as the

3142
03:01:37,800 --> 03:01:40,879
Speaker 13: world watches on as it always does.

3143
03:01:44,240 --> 03:01:47,440
Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3144
03:01:47,480 --> 03:01:49,400
Speaker 1: from now until the heat Death of the Universe.

3145
03:01:50,000 --> 03:01:52,480
Speaker 6: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3146
03:01:52,600 --> 03:01:55,240
Speaker 13: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3147
03:01:55,280 --> 03:01:58,400
Speaker 13: coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3148
03:01:58,440 --> 03:02:01,840
Speaker 13: Apple Podcasts, or wherevery listen to podcasts. You can find

3149
03:02:01,879 --> 03:02:05,080
Speaker 13: sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia

3150
03:02:05,160 --> 03:02:07,600
Speaker 13: dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.