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Speaker 1: Body Dots with Joseph Scott more. Every generation has have

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Speaker 1: their moments. There are moments in time where things are

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Speaker 1: really good, and then there are those segments of your life,

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Speaker 1: maybe collectively you know within your group that you're moving

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Speaker 1: through life with where times get really, really tough. We're

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Speaker 1: in one of the spots right now. Work for many

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Speaker 1: is diminished. Sometimes you can't find a job, and if

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Speaker 1: you can find a job, many of those jobs really

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Speaker 1: don't pay a livable wage. So if you are essentially

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Speaker 1: desperate and someone comes to you and says, hey, I

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Speaker 1: have a job for you, and by the way, you

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Speaker 1: can stay at home while you do it because you've

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Speaker 1: got little kids, that's a heck of a temptation. But

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Speaker 1: the problem is is that many times these individuals that

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Speaker 1: offer these jobs don't have your best interest at heart.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, sometimes they'll bate you with

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Speaker 1: something that sounds too good to be true. And today,

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, we have a young mother that

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Speaker 1: was baited and it wound up in the death of

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Speaker 1: her unborn child and also her I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: and this is body Backs. I don't think anybody out

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Speaker 1: there most folks at least, they don't consider that getting

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Speaker 1: in a car is that they're going to wind up

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Speaker 1: in a terminal event in their life. You know, nobody

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Speaker 1: in their right mind would get in the car. But

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Speaker 1: in this case, this poor woman did well.

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Speaker 2: It was a setup. You mentioned about a job and

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Speaker 2: working from home in this story today. That's how that

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Speaker 2: was the connective tissue of making everything happen was you

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Speaker 2: have Ashley Bush who is thirty three year old mother

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Speaker 2: of three, very pregnant and having a difficult pregnancy, but

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Speaker 2: looking to make money at a job that is online

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Speaker 2: that you can do from home. We used to make

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Speaker 2: jokes about making extra money at home in your spare

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Speaker 2: time making envelopes. That was the seventies and eighties and

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Speaker 2: nineties even, but over the last since COVID. In reality,

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Speaker 2: since COVID, we've got a lot of jobs that became

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Speaker 2: work from home jobs. Now, granted that is going back

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Speaker 2: the other direction now, when they realized that probably seventy

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Speaker 2: percent of people who were working those jobs were not

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Speaker 2: working a full day. But that's what Amber Waterman was

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Speaker 2: offering to Ashley Bush. But she wasn't doing it as

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Speaker 2: Amber Waterman. What she did is Ashley Bush responded to

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Speaker 2: a Facebook post about a job from home in your

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Speaker 2: spare time. I had a woman named Lucy. Lucy is

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Speaker 2: offering up this job, and Ashley reaches out, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is perfect, I'm all about this. Let's get together.

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Speaker 2: She was overjoyed with the thought of being able to

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Speaker 2: get a real job and work from home in her

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Speaker 2: spare time. This is a big deal for a mother

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Speaker 2: of three who's pregnant. And all I could think of,

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Speaker 2: Joe was how hopeful she had to have been to

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Speaker 2: that first meeting to meet with Lucy. Just excited. She

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Speaker 2: Ashley actually went with her fiancee. They were so excited

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Speaker 2: he drove her there And imagine what that's like to

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Speaker 2: be filled with such joy at the prospect of actually

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Speaker 2: having the dream where yeah, I'm having a tough pregnancy,

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Speaker 2: but now I can do this, I can work from home,

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Speaker 2: I can do Oh this is a godsend, what a relief.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and she yeah, yeah, I'm sorry to go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Well that's what Lucy did.

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Speaker 2: Lucy prayed upon that and talked her into it, and

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Speaker 2: so they got together. They met and Lucy then set

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Speaker 2: up a time again very official. Well, you know, I

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Speaker 2: want to hire you, but we got to get you

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Speaker 2: to meet my boss. So I'll go ahead and arrange

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Speaker 2: all that and I'll let you know. Now, I'm guessing,

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Speaker 2: based on a couple of things here that maybe Ashley

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Speaker 2: and her fiancee only had one vehicle that was operating

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Speaker 2: at the time because he drove her, or maybe she

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Speaker 2: wasn't comfortable driving with the pregnancy. I don't know, but

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Speaker 2: it's enough that he was involved in this aspect to

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Speaker 2: provide some of the narration of what was taking place.

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Speaker 2: But Ashley meets up with Lucy, and Lucy's going to

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Speaker 2: take her to meet the boss, the supervisor, who will

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Speaker 2: okay her hiring. And that's not what happened at all.

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Speaker 2: Ashley was taken, kidnapped, and, bless her heart, her fourth

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Speaker 2: child was not delivered in a hospital by a doctor.

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Speaker 2: Her fourth child was cut out of her womb by

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Speaker 2: a non doctor whose goal was to steal her baby.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I sit back and I'm thinking I used to

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Speaker 1: have a buddy of mind that would use the term.

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Speaker 1: He would have some he did something really stupid. He

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Speaker 1: would look at them and say, does your mind work?

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Speaker 1: You know? And you know? And I can't. I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine in any universe where anyone that could string couple

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Speaker 1: syllables together. That's a baseline that you would actually think

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Speaker 1: that you could take a pregnant woman and essentially plan

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Speaker 1: this thing out where you're going to kill her and

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Speaker 1: then remove the baby that is growing within her, and

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Speaker 1: and you're not going to get caught at this. First off,

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Speaker 1: this whole idea of and we've seen this before too, Dave,

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Speaker 1: where the perpetrator will attempt to almost disguise a pregnancy,

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Speaker 1: you know, where they're they'll come up with some story

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Speaker 1: that says, yeah, well, I spontaneously had this baby. And

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Speaker 1: you go back investigatively and you look at the say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, the history of an individual that attempts to

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Speaker 1: do this, well, their judgment is so clouded because they're

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Speaker 1: so focused on this horrific deed that they're going to

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Speaker 1: undertake that you don't I don't think that they think

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Speaker 1: about this and give it serious consideration that everybody in

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Speaker 1: their peripheral circle, and I mean everybody is is going

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Speaker 1: to not notice that, you know, she wasn't pregnant and

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Speaker 1: then suddenly she's going to appear with a newborn child.

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Speaker 1: Unless you're living you know, in total isolation where there

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Speaker 1: is no one that has really any kind of substance

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Speaker 1: of awareness of your existence or your life at that point,

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Speaker 1: don't I don't see how anybody could figure that they're

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Speaker 1: going to pull this thing off day.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wondered what happened. How did they discover that

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Speaker 2: Amber Waterman.

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Speaker 1: Did this?

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Speaker 2: Okay, because she shows up, she actually calls nine one

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Speaker 2: one and they send out paramedics because this woman is

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Speaker 2: claiming she's just given birth in her truck. And I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking about that phone call, Joe. I mean, if you're

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Speaker 2: a responder, not her making the call, She's cut the

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Speaker 2: baby out of the womb. She's got a stillborn child,

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Speaker 2: is what she's claiming. And she's claiming she gave birth

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Speaker 2: in her truck and the first responders, you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: wondering what they're thinking of. Okay, I'm wondering how are

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Speaker 2: they responding to this because you have a woman that

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Speaker 2: claims she just gave birth in her truck and the

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Speaker 2: baby is dead.

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Speaker 1: That's traumatic when a medical professional begins to assess an individual.

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Speaker 1: And this extends to paramedics who are fantastic at what

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Speaker 1: they do in the field because they're kind of they're

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Speaker 1: out there, what do they say without a parachute. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: they're having to render aid in the field, and they

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Speaker 1: can communicate, you know, with an emergency room that has

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Speaker 1: a physician. But let's face it, they have to do

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Speaker 1: these assessments out in the field and do what they

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Speaker 1: have to do. They're going to want to see you

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Speaker 1: and get an idea from an assessment standpoint. They're going

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Speaker 1: to want to see your body, okay. And a woman

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Speaker 1: who has had a vaginal delivery and certainly in the

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Speaker 1: immediate is going to present in a particular way, if

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And they're also going to

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Speaker 1: want to know if, say, for instance, she gave birth.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that and I remember this very

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Speaker 1: distinctly with my own children, it's not just giving birth.

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Speaker 1: If it's a standard vaginal delivery, it's not just giving

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Speaker 1: birth to the child. But you have to push out

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Speaker 1: the placenta, okay, And so the question would be, I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, well, where's the placenta? All these other issues

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Speaker 1: that arise, And here's here's the thing, Dave. When they're

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Speaker 1: doing an assessment on someone who claims to have just

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Speaker 1: given birth, their their focus is not just on the mother,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be on the child as well, because

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Speaker 1: they they want to render aid to the child. You're

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Speaker 1: talking about the spontaneous delivery that she's claiming that she

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Speaker 1: had and there's no evidence of that. And for me,

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Speaker 1: if I was out there as in a paramedical role,

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Speaker 1: first the first phone call I'm making is not back

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Speaker 1: to the emergency room or not back to headquarters. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get on the radio and say, you know,

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Speaker 1: you need to you need to get the police here

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Speaker 1: like asap. We've got to assess the situation and try

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Speaker 1: to determine what status the child is. Dave.

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Speaker 2: Well, now, Joe, when when somebody claims that the baby

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Speaker 2: was born was still born, died in utero, that's the

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Speaker 2: actual term, the baby died in uter How can you

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Speaker 2: determine how the baby died? I mean dying in uter

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Speaker 2: I mean dying before being born? Is that what we're talking? Okay?

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Speaker 2: And then can you medically determined that that's what happened?

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Speaker 2: And where?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? You can? You know many times, particularly if you

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Speaker 1: have a mother that's not going for prenatal checks. One

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Speaker 1: the first thing that they that if if the mother

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Speaker 1: is following the course that is prescribed by her by

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Speaker 1: her will be when you go in for these checks,

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Speaker 1: they're going to do a pelvic exam essentially, you know,

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Speaker 1: on the mother where they do an internal examination. But

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Speaker 1: the biggest thing they're going to do is first things

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Speaker 1: can appear. It's going to be the the nurse practitioner

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Speaker 1: or the physician assistant or the physician is going to

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Speaker 1: you know, drop those tethoscopes in their ear and start

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Speaker 1: to listen for fetal heart sounds. And that's the initial

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Speaker 1: assessment because you know, the patient, the mother to be,

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Speaker 1: is being followed along these steps, and so if there

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Speaker 1: is an absence of a heartbeat at that moment tome,

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Speaker 1: then the doctor will look at this and they'll say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I'm not hearing a heartbeat. Let's take

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Speaker 1: this a step further and they begin to assess. Many times,

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Speaker 1: with in utero deaths, you will have and I think

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Speaker 1: many people might not be aware of this, but when,

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Speaker 1: for instance, if we have a stillborn baby that we

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Speaker 1: have to do an examination on, say, for instance, in work,

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Speaker 1: there are literally day decompositional changes that take place within

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Speaker 1: the mother's body, and doctors many times will make note

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Speaker 1: of this in the sense that they will use terms

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Speaker 1: like macerated.

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Speaker 2: Macerated in the mother's body composition, we have never in

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Speaker 2: a million years none and you.

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Speaker 1: Can see these you can see these changes you know

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Speaker 1: that take place. They'll even be things like skin slippage

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Speaker 1: and these sorts of things. And of course, if you're

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Speaker 1: being followed by a physician, they will go ahead and

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Speaker 1: induce labor, you know, and have if that's possible, to

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Speaker 1: have a vaginal birth and have the mother deliver the

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Speaker 1: child still born, of course, and there will be market changes.

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Speaker 1: But when if we have a child, for instance, that

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Speaker 1: is discovered, say out of a crime scene, where the

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Speaker 1: child is just you know, lying there and the seas

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Speaker 1: we would in fact, at autopsy do what's referred to

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Speaker 1: as a float test, and so that means that the

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Speaker 1: babies during the course of the examination, the baby's lungs

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Speaker 1: would be taken out. And one of the checks that

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Speaker 1: you do here is to see if the lungs have

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Speaker 1: ever been erratd So if they've never breathed, for instance,

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Speaker 1: outside of the womb, that's going to be a big

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Speaker 1: clue for us, because you know, the lungs would literally float,

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Speaker 1: you know, in a bucket, and that's the way it's

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Speaker 1: been done for years and years, and it's one of

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Speaker 1: the things that we checked for. Not to mention when

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Speaker 1: you think about these changes that take place to the

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Speaker 1: baby's body. In euro if the baby is deceased, we

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Speaker 1: would make note of that. But if you find a

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Speaker 1: baby that has been delivered in some manner, the big

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Speaker 1: question is this was the baby viable? Was the baby

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Speaker 1: in such a state that it could have survived out

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Speaker 1: of the womb And in this case, this baby it

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Speaker 1: brought the term, could have had a full life under

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Speaker 1: normal circumstances. Dave, And look, you're a daddy. You know this.

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Speaker 1: Your grandpa too, just like me. When mom gives birth,

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Speaker 1: it's not just the baby being simply delivered. It is

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Speaker 1: also the process of the placenta being delivered as well,

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Speaker 1: because placenta has to be pushed out in addition to that.

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Speaker 1: And here's something else that I don't know that people

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Speaker 1: necessarily know. Did you know that when a placenta is delivered,

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Speaker 1: that placenta, most of the time is going to go

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Speaker 1: to the hospital pathologist and they're going to take a

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Speaker 1: look at it and they're going to look for any abnormality.

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Speaker 1: They do devote a hospital pathologist. That is, they spend

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Speaker 1: quite a bit of time doing these these examinations of

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Speaker 1: placentas that have been passed, which has to happen as

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Speaker 1: a process of the the birth. I think for every

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Speaker 1: every well, with the exception of one Isaacs. Isaac's birth,

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Speaker 1: it was c section to that point the babies. After

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Speaker 1: the baby has passed, you'll hear the doctor say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you still got to push. We've got to get this placenta.

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Speaker 1: And so the question arises, what becomes of the placenta

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Speaker 1: at that moment? In tom does and you're talking about

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Speaker 1: a baby that would be born away from a medical facility.

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Speaker 1: Would would the mother in a case like this continue

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Speaker 1: to push and push out the placenta and you'd want

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Speaker 1: to know where it is because you're going to have

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Speaker 1: to assess the placenta as well. And can you told

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Speaker 1: me something that is markedly disturbing Dave on so many

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Speaker 1: levels about this case.

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Speaker 2: Here's the description of what took place with Amber Waterman.

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Speaker 2: After calling nine one one, Amber traveled to meet an

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Speaker 2: ambulance at a store in McDonald County. Amber told detectives

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Speaker 2: that she had delivered as stillborn. That evening, McDonald County

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Speaker 2: Sheriff Evanson said that they responded reports of a newborn

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Speaker 2: baby not breathing. EMS intercepted the couple on the way

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Speaker 2: to the hospital, and, according to the county coroner, bj

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Speaker 2: Goodwin says, Amber allegedly had the placenta in her pants

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Speaker 2: when EMS showed up, causing her husband Jamie to think

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Speaker 2: she had a baby. They called a helicopter to take

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Speaker 2: baby and Amber to the hospital, but they could not

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Speaker 2: revive the baby. The baby died. Amber allegedly refused medical treatment,

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Speaker 2: so the baby was taken to an area funeral home.

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Speaker 2: In the placenta was retrieved from her it. This is

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Speaker 2: the part that gets me. I don't know how you

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Speaker 2: tell this, but it appeared the baby was quote cut

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Speaker 2: out of the mother. How would you know that, Joe,

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Speaker 2: you've got you have a stillborn baby. That's what you're told.

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Speaker 2: Even even though we know what actually transpired, how would

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Speaker 2: this baby present that they would know that? Or is

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Speaker 2: that something said after the fact, after they put all

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Speaker 2: the pieces together, you know, saying that it appears this

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Speaker 2: is what took place.

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Speaker 1: Well, the phraseology here is that, m god, this is

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Speaker 1: so despicable. Is what is being implied here is that

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Speaker 1: the baby, the baby was actually injured in the course

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Speaker 1: of this non surgical removal of the baby from the

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Speaker 1: mother's womb, and so the baby would have sustained trauma.

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Speaker 1: And we're talking about potentially edged edged weapon type trauma

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Speaker 1: where you've got slices. Perhaps, I don't think you know,

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Speaker 1: for years and years, for decades, for centuries, women have

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Speaker 1: died in childbirth. It's only in the modern the modern

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Speaker 1: course of things where we've we've gotten to a point

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Speaker 1: now in America. I can't speak to the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world where we don't. You don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of women die in childbirth. This is a surgical event

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Speaker 1: that takes place, Okay, And there's a reason obg y

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Speaker 1: ns have an understanding of how to deliver a baby v.

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Speaker 1: C section. Okay, it's a delicate it's a delicate thing.

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Speaker 1: I think that people just automatically think, well, this is

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Speaker 1: very simple. It's not. You have literally a tray of

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Speaker 1: surgical tools that are there in the delivery room in

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Speaker 1: the event that it is not going to be a

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Speaker 1: vaginal delivery, and they have to intervene at that point

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Speaker 1: in time. But it's a very delicate thing that has

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Speaker 1: to take place. If if in fact, you're talking about

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Speaker 1: a case where someone is using perhaps household cutlery or

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Speaker 1: something that is not meant for surgical intervention, you're damn right,

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Speaker 1: that could be injuries to this baby, and that would

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Speaker 1: be evidenced in the examination, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, Joe, it's the injuries to this baby that actually

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Speaker 2: opened the investigation. Like everybody else, I see a story

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Speaker 2: and I start wondering what brought everybody the principles of

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Speaker 2: the story, what brought them all together? And in this case,

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Speaker 2: it's really down to Ashley Bush, a thirty one year

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Speaker 2: old mother of three, the major breadwinner in your family,

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Speaker 2: and she has been diagnosed with gestational hypertension. Yep, And

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Speaker 2: what was told you need to get off your feet

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Speaker 2: and you need to be not doing a lot of

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Speaker 2: work like that. What is gestational hypertension and how it

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Speaker 2: impacts a woman who's pregnant.

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Speaker 1: Well, here here's the thing. If you're and of course

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Speaker 1: hypertension goes to UH, goes to high blood pressure is

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Speaker 1: what it comes down to. And so if you if

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Speaker 1: you have a mother that is presenting with this and

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Speaker 1: you know, going back to what I what I said earlier.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that you do in these pre

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Speaker 1: natal checks is they're not just going to listen to

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Speaker 1: mommy's tummy and you know, listen for the fetal heartbeat

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Speaker 1: and do that kind of assessment. They're checking mommy out too,

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Speaker 1: all right. Sometimes they'll have to draw labs, all these

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Speaker 1: sorts of things, and it's dependent upon the practitioner that's

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Speaker 1: that's following, you know, following mom. And so if they

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Speaker 1: notice and gestational hypertension, generally the mother will present with

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Speaker 1: it when she he's twenty weeks twenty five weeks down

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Speaker 1: range with her pregnancy. So the moment that she's gotten

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Speaker 1: pregnant up until that point in time where you know,

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Speaker 1: you've got this mom who is you know, trying to

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Speaker 1: you know, essentially create this new life within her. If

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Speaker 1: she has any kind of anomaly like like hypertension, this

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Speaker 1: could send her spiraling, you know, because high perretension is

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Speaker 1: a precursor for say, for instance, well a mile cardial infarction,

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Speaker 1: because anything can happen. She can have some kind of

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Speaker 1: rhythm event with her heart. And they're not just trying

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Speaker 1: to keep Mama healthy, They're trying to keep baby healthy

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Speaker 1: all right at the same time. That's why you know,

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Speaker 1: with the work that obg y ns do, it's very

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Speaker 1: delicate work, Dave. They have to have sense of this.

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Speaker 1: So when a mother presents with with gestational hypertension, that's

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Speaker 1: going to be the course of action. They're not necessarily

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Speaker 1: going to medicate them. But when you think about the

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Speaker 1: position that she's in, she has to stay out for

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Speaker 1: her feet. She has to take it easy because there's

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Speaker 1: there could be a possibility that she could miscarry at

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Speaker 1: any point in time because you got all these other

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Speaker 1: wheels kind of spinning around metabolically in her body. And

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Speaker 1: so they're going to you know, kind of take their

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Speaker 1: foot off the gas or tell her to take the

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Speaker 1: foot off the gas with a life, and that's that's

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Speaker 1: hard to do. She's a mama day right, well, you know.

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Speaker 2: That's the thing that she's the major breadwinner in the house.

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Speaker 2: They've got three children. So this job working from home

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Speaker 2: off her feet was that important. And that's where all

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Speaker 2: of this comes in. Amber Waterman actually creates a person

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Speaker 2: named Lucy Barrows on Facebook. She creates this person out

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Speaker 2: of thin air as Lucy Barrows. She advertises a fictitious

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Speaker 2: work from home job opportunity that she shared with a

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Speaker 2: group of mothers to be. Ashley Bush and her fiancee,

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Speaker 2: Josh Willis responded and went to meet a public library.

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Speaker 2: I said library, didn't I mean to wait a public

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Speaker 2: library in Grosvett, Arkansas, to meet this person named Lucy.

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Speaker 2: As Lucy Amber Waterman says that the women have to

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Speaker 2: travel together to meet her supposed boss. Three days after

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Speaker 2: the meeting, they meet together to do just that. Now

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Speaker 2: as they leave together, only you know, Ashley Bush never returns.

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Speaker 2: What actually happened is this Amber Waterman admitted that she

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Speaker 2: kidnapped Ashley Bush in order to claim her unborn child.

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Speaker 2: The child already had been named. Ashley had already named

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Speaker 2: her the child Valkyrie will Waterman transported Ashley Bush from Masvill,

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Speaker 2: Arkansas to Pineville. Kidnapping resulted in the deaths of both

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Speaker 2: Ashley Bush and Valkyrie Willis. Waterman had to admit all

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Speaker 2: this because they knew right away that this was From

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Speaker 2: the moment medical professionals looked at the situation, they knew

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Speaker 2: she was lying. That's all I can tell you is

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Speaker 2: they knew, and she admitted that Waterman did to using

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Speaker 2: a fake name to conning Ashley Bush into this soap

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Speaker 2: called job. Now, Ashley Bush is only thirty one weeks pregnant.

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Speaker 2: I want to get to that, but she pretend. Waterman

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Speaker 2: pretends to help Bush obtain the employment, suggesting this job opportunity.

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Speaker 2: That's where they led to you got to meet with

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Speaker 2: my boss. That meeting was set for October thirty first,

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Speaker 2: and at about eleven forty five that morning of October thirty, Bush,

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Speaker 2: thirty first Ashley Bush met Amber Waterman at the Handy

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Speaker 2: Stop convenience story in Maysville, Arkansas. Under the pretext Waterman's

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Speaker 2: taking her to meet the supervisor who will approve her hiring.

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Speaker 2: Bush gets into the truck driven by Watermen. Waterman then

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Speaker 2: kidnaps Bush, driving her from Maysville to the Waterville the

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Speaker 2: Waterman residence in Pineville. At about five o'clock October thirty,

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Speaker 2: first first responders reported to the Longview Store in Pineville

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Speaker 2: for an emergency call of a baby who's not breathing.

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Speaker 2: Waterman admits that she claimed to first responders that she

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Speaker 2: had given birth to the child in the truck while

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Speaker 2: on the way to the hospital, but in reality, she

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Speaker 2: now admits the child was Ashley Bush's child who died

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Speaker 2: in Utero as a result of Waterman's kidnapping. The resulted

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Speaker 2: in the death of both Ashley Bush and her child, Valkyrie.

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Speaker 2: An autopsy indicates that Bush died as a result of

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Speaker 2: penetrating trauma of the torso, and her death course classified

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Speaker 2: as a homicide.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I've got something a little bit to add to that, Dave,

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Speaker 1: because as it turns out, this is not just because

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Speaker 1: you know, when authorities say that it was penetrating trauma,

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Speaker 1: that can mean any number of things. You know, for

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Speaker 1: all we know, she was impaled on something, or she

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Speaker 1: was stabbed to death, or you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: you could think of any number of things that might

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Speaker 1: might lead to a penetrating event. But here's what actually happened.

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Speaker 1: This woman executed this mother to be a gunshot won't

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Speaker 1: And when you think about this in the totality of it,

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Speaker 1: the reality is this, once that mother was shot, it's

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Speaker 1: stealed the fate of not only her but her unborn child.

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Speaker 1: The baby has tremendous potential to be viable. She's roughly what,

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Speaker 1: let's see, probably about ten weeks out perhaps from from

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Speaker 1: delivering nine to ten weeks. Yeah, there have been There

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Speaker 1: have been babies that have been born oh yeah, much

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Speaker 1: younger than that. And when I say younger, I mean

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Speaker 1: gestational age that have survived. So yeah, there is a

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Speaker 1: high likelihood that this child would have not only survived,

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Speaker 1: but probably thrived.

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Speaker 2: But that subtly requires some medical treatment.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and a child that would be born

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Speaker 1: that prematurely. You know, you're talking about the child going

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Speaker 1: into you know, the nick you the NEO NA intensive

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Speaker 1: care unit for a protracted period of time, because what

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Speaker 1: they have to do is continue continue the development of

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Speaker 1: this child outside of the womb. If for those that

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Speaker 1: are that have never seen a nick you, it is

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Speaker 1: an amazing place. It's unlike, say, for instance, the nursery,

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Speaker 1: you know, where we all think about, you know, the

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Speaker 1: old idea of looking through the window and seeing the

431
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: babies that are newborn. They're all in there, something completely different.

432
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: You're talking about people that are so the nurses and

433
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: the doctors and the technicians that work in these places.

434
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: The NICKU itself, it's a world in and of itself.

435
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: You'll see them walking around the scrubs, they've got mask on.

436
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: It's a very controlled environment and these every one of

437
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: these precious little lives is monitored, but they try to

438
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: get these children to thrive, you know, along the way

439
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: outside of the womb. And sometimes this happens, obviously. And

440
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: there's this. When I was a very young man and

441
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: I first started working in a hospital environment, I met

442
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: a neo natologist. You know, the chances at that age

443
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: that I would meet a person like this. This woman

444
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: was so committed to what she did. She lived in

445
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: the hospital for an entire week at a time and

446
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: then would be all for a week and literally there.

447
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: And the reason I know this, I would engage her

448
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: in conversations because she would be exiting the hospital to

449
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: go for a bike ride, and that's how she kind

450
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: of blew off steam, you know. While she's there. She

451
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: had a hospital room that had a regular bed in

452
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: it that she would sleep in down the hall from

453
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: the nick you and it was there, and there were

454
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: other neo natologists as well that would rotate in and out.

455
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: But I was always fascinated by that because it's unlike

456
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: any other kind of practice in medicine because they're focused

457
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: on singularly on this one little life that they're trying

458
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: to get to survive and thrive outside of the wound.

459
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: Amber Waterman admits that after killing Ashley Bush, she and

460
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: her husband Jamie, wrapped Ashley Bush in a blue tarp.

461
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: They pour bar chain oil and gas on the tarp

462
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: and on her body. They place Ashley Bush in their

463
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: burn pit and lighter on fire. After adding wood in

464
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: a small sofa to the fire. They let it burn

465
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: for about an hour. Then Amber Waterman douses the fire

466
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: with water. Her husband rolls Ashley Bush's remains, now in

467
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: a blue tarp. They place Bush in the bed of

468
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: Jamie's truck and they drive a short distance from their house,

469
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: where they pull Ashley Bush her burned remains out of

470
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: the back of the truck, unroll her from the blue tarp,

471
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: and leave her remains sitting there. They then drive back

472
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: to their house, where Amber Waterman says she went home

473
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: and burned the blue tarp. How burned could it be

474
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: after just an hour using bar oil, bar chain oil

475
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 2: and gasoline?

476
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: Joe, Oh, very insufficient to the task. First off, bodies,

477
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: human bodies are not fuel there and you have to

478
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: understand that with fire, fire is basically you have to have.

479
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: You have to have a heat source Obviously, let's say

480
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: a match that you're going to strike or a flare,

481
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: or whatever the case might be, you have to have

482
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: an initiator, like an agent, like some kind of petroleum

483
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: based substance. It can be kerosene, gasoline. In this case,

484
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: they chose oil, which is a very slow burn if

485
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: you will, and also gasoline. You combine those two and

486
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: it would it would burn for a bit, okay, and

487
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: it's essentially going to flash over if you've you know,

488
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: if anyone out there has an experience would striking a

489
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: match and applying it to something so volatile as gasoline,

490
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: you'll get that initial like, you know, like this so

491
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: and then you have to have a sustainable fire source

492
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: or strike that. You have to have a sustainable fuel source,

493
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: which is going to be like wood. In this case,

494
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: it sounds as though they were going to they attempted

495
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: to use a sofa in order to continue this fire.

496
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: And then you have to again you go back to

497
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: this uninterrupted supply of oxygen that has to be present

498
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: in order for this fire to continue to flourish. But

499
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: the problem is is that if you're attempting to do

500
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: this in a wide open area, the fuel itself is

501
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: going to be insufficient to the task in a very

502
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: short short period of time that they did this, because

503
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: you have to be able to add fuel to the

504
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: fire so that it's going to create coals and embers,

505
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: and that heat source is going to continue to roll

506
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: and roll and roll like that, and it's not going

507
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: to do much to the body, particularly internally when you

508
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:26,919
Speaker 1: begin to attempt to render it down, if you will.

509
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: I hate that term, but that's the way we regard this.

510
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: So you're talking about I would Dave, I would say

511
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: that probably the chances that the body was burned down

512
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: to skeletal remains in just an hour or slim and none.

513
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: You're still going to have soft tissue throughout the body.

514
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 1: It's certainly not going to do damage to the internal viscera,

515
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: the heart and the lungs, anything like that, and particularly

516
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: any kind of wound tracks there there. It's going to

517
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: be complicated though, to work this particular scene because one

518
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: of the things that you're considering if they have a

519
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: burn pile out there and she has been shot, Okay,

520
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: since their story is so convoluted, you don't know for

521
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: all you know, she may have been shot in that

522
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: one location and then set on fire, because Lord knows

523
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: they can lie and if her body was so compromised

524
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: and that round state in her body, it could fall

525
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: out in the burn pile. You're talking about sofa Just

526
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: check this for a second. Sofas have springs on them.

527
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: And when I've actually seen this in fire cases where

528
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 1: we will take a boy that we collect at the scene,

529
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: place it into a body bag, and then that body

530
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: bag is brought into the Morgan. We try to get

531
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: everything around the body that we can. We do x

532
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: raislin body and you'd be amazed what shows up on

533
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: the radiographs. You'll see things like nails, bolts, springs, things

534
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: that you might not can make out, but you know

535
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: that it's some kind of radio opaque metallic object that's there.

536
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: So everything is kind of mixed together in this environment

537
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 1: and it's a convoluted mess. But you know you talked

538
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 1: about you're creating more evidence. Well you know they are

539
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: creating more evidence because now you're introducing a tarp that

540
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 1: can be tied back to somebody. Perhaps you're talking about

541
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: an accelerant. If you can identify that accelerant what was used,

542
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: and we're talking about I believe you had mentioned the

543
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 1: chainsaw oil. That's a different substance than just standalone gas. Okay,

544
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: so those two things are going chemically, they're going to

545
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: appear to be different. So you talk about the clothing

546
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: that she still had on, that clothing. If this substance

547
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: was ap applied directly to the clothing, that clothing would

548
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,959
Speaker 1: be collected at autopsy. Any remnant, even the stuff that's

549
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: below the body, is going to be taken off and

550
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: it's going to be submitted into fire fire examination analysis.

551
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: I'm very curious though, relative to their assessment that this

552
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: was an execution event utilizing a firearm, did they recover

553
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: a projectile and if so, what type of projectile was it?

554
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: And can they tie that back to the weapon. The

555
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: fire would have to be so intense in order to

556
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: melt down a recovered bullet or projectile. The chances that

557
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 1: happening are little and none. And you're talking about only

558
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: an hour on the burn pile, Dave. Just so you

559
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: can frame this out, just so that we can try

560
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:19,479
Speaker 1: to understand this, and I mentioned this before, but bear

561
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: with me. Crematories, you're talking about approaching, approaching sometimes you know,

562
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: eighteen hundred degrees, all right, in a contained space with

563
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,959
Speaker 1: contain sustainable fuel source, because with crematories you're talking about

564
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: natural gas that's essentially ignited and is blowing onto bodies

565
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: and consuming that body. You know, I have this here.

566
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 1: You're bleeding all kinds of energy off on a burn pile.

567
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: Even for people you know, pay attention the next time

568
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: you're driving down the road and you're seeing construction on

569
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: property or maybe the dot he is doing something along.

570
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen where they're burning piles of debris

571
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: on the side of the road, and maybe you'll pass

572
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: by that same pile three or four days and it

573
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: doesn't look like it's reducing. It takes a tremendous amount

574
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: of effort to get a fire so hot where everything

575
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: will absolutely disappear in essentially vaporize. In this case, one

576
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: hour would not be sufficient to the task, Dave.

577
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 2: In reality, I think that Amber Waterman thought that body

578
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: would burn up quickly, all the evidence be gone, and

579
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 2: when it didn't happen, she put the fire out. They

580
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: rolled the body up and took it off to a

581
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: short distance from the house. And when they were confessing,

582
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 2: I'm talking about her husband, Jamie Amber Waterman did confess

583
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 2: Jamie Waterman did talk about what he did after the fact,

584
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: and it was Jamie Waterman that actually led law enforcement

585
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: to the body of Actually, so now you've lost Ashley,

586
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 2: mother of three, Valkyrie, the unborn baby. Three children don't

587
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 2: have their mother, a man doesn't have his Beyonce, mother

588
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: of his child. I mean, they're gone all because of

589
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 2: Amber Waterman.

590
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: And now Amber Waterman is going to be cooling her

591
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: heels in federal prison because following this confession that eventually

592
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: they were able to obtain from her, she will be

593
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: sentenced to Federal penitentiary and that sentencing is scheduled to

594
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: take place October fifteenth, twenty twenty four. I'm Joseph Scott

595
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Bodybacks