1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,439 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From house Supports 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristin. Today is a listener request. Um, we 4 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: got a letter, uh, you know, suggesting that we look 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: into shipping and one true pairing, and of course I 6 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: immediately was like, I don't I don't know what that like. 7 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: Shipping like transporting things, but I don't understand. Oh my goodness. 8 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: And looking into this topic, did we uncover a ton 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: of research? Yeah, it's fascinating and I have a feeling 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: they're probably still listeners saying I know it. Shipping is 11 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: one tree pairing. Of course, like you, Caroline, I was 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with this term, but once I started reading about it, 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: I started out over at Know your Meme dot com. 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: It's like the first Google result that you'll get when 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: it comes up, and it gives you a pretty good 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: um rundown of what it is. And shipping is essentially 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: short for relationshipping. You will also hear about relationshippers, which 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: would be shortened to shippers. And it started out with 19 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: fans of the X Files who were split between relationshippers 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: who really wanted to see Molder and Scully get together 21 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: versus the no romos who felt that any kind of 22 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: romance would been Molder and Scully would totally ruin the show. 23 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: And the term has also pinned on Pokemon fans who 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: rooted for Jesse and James of Team Rocket to get 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: together and decided to call themselves Rocket shippers. So all 26 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: of that is shortened to ship or shipping, and this 27 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: whole thing is just people feeling so attached to these 28 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: characters that they start rooting for or against certain things 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: to happen in the show. Yeah, and we intentionally did 30 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: this episode during the week of Valentine's because it's a 31 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: different angle of attraction and emotional investment that we don't 32 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: hear much about. And obviously that the shipping side of 33 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: it gets really deep into the world of fandom and 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: fan fiction. But as we kind of jump into this 35 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: rabbit hole of shipping, it emerges into a lot of 36 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: areas that we probably all have some experience with. But first, 37 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: you mentioned one true pairing. That's something that comes up 38 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: a lot in shipping, and essentially it's a couple that 39 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: a fan or a group of fans prefers over all 40 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 1: the other ships or relationships. Right, And they're not necessarily 41 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: the main characters. Sometimes people focus fan fiction on, you know, 42 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: side characters who they want to get together and maybe 43 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: if they think the main guy should really be in 44 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: love with some other girl over here. But you know, 45 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: you could think of one true pairing as like Buffy 46 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: and Angel or Ross and Rachel, who are cited an 47 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: insane amount in some of these studies. Yeah, and this 48 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: all segues into this thing called a para social relationship. 49 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,119 Speaker 1: And it's an actual psychological term which was coined by 50 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: Donald Horton and Richard Wall in nineteen fifties six to 51 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: describe sort of an illusion of a relationship that a 52 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: viewer or a listener will have with a performer or 53 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: some kind of character. Right. And it's you know, by definition, 54 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: a one sided relationship where the feelings extend past the 55 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: viewing and into real life. You find yourself thinking about 56 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: this person or character in real life and just the 57 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: act of watching or listening to uh this performance will 58 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: just reinforce those feelings. It's kind of like if you 59 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: develop a crush on someone, the more you see them, 60 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: the more you like them. It's just that this happens 61 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: to be with someone that you probably never meet. Yeah, 62 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: and the manifest stations of these kinds of para social 63 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: relationships via shipping fan fiction and with our celebrity crushes 64 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: that we get aren't new at all. With with fandom specifically, 65 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: know your meme talks about how in nineteen thirteen a 66 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: book called Old Friends, New Fancies was published and it 67 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: was a remix, an old school fan fix, remixing characters 68 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: from three Jane Austen novels. And there's even Mr Darcy 69 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: fan art side note that goes back to the early 70 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds. Um. And with celebrity culture, obviously it's you know, 71 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: it's been around for quite a while, but it goes 72 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: all the way back to really the eighteenth century, which 73 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: is when you have the emergence of the celebrity while 74 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: all these other new ideas are kind of boiling at 75 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: the time in terms of selfhood, individuality, in the pursuit 76 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: of passions. Yeah, that's not something that I ever realized 77 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: that celebrity quote unquote started so early, I mean relatively. 78 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: You know, it comes along with new consumerism, and this 79 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: is when we also get gossip column no idea. Well, 80 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: then you can tie into that not just with our 81 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: cult of celebrity, but also digging into shipping and one 82 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: true pairing and fan fiction. The evolution of all of 83 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: this stuff has really gone alongside the development of different 84 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: types of communication technologies. Whether you have, for instance, in 85 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century, the rise of photography, which helped 86 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: stoke the popularity of stage star Sarah Bernhardt, and then 87 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, with mass journalism starting to rise, 88 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: you have something called jazz journalism, which I guess for 89 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: the like the early celebrity tabloids. Yeah, really focusing on 90 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: entertainment over news, glorifying celebrities, you know, people like Charles Lindberg, 91 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: you know who is a huge celebrity for his beats 92 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: of aviation. Um so why why the long held focus? 93 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: What are we what are we so obsessed with celebrities for? Yeah? 94 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: I mean, and this is looking more moving away a 95 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: little bit from the fan fiction element and into actual 96 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: living people living in Hollywood A lot of times that 97 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: we want to see photos of while they're getting their groceries, 98 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: Like why why do we care when celebrities do everything? 99 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: And guess what, folks, there are so many theories about 100 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: its Scholars think about this stuff too. Yeah, a lot 101 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: of it. Theories include just the facts, simple fact that 102 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: we enjoy living vicariously through really beautiful, rich people. That 103 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: doesn't seem that hard to figure out. There's also, of 104 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: course schadenfreud, where we take pleasure and the misfortune of others. 105 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: So if Lindsay Lohan gets arrested again, or you know, 106 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: somebody there's a picture somebody tripping and falling, we tend 107 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: to get a kick out of it. When you move 108 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: into the more kind of literary look at things, linguist 109 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: George Lakeoff, who in his book The Political Mind, posited 110 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: that certain frame based scenarios like rags to richest stories 111 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: really appeal to us because they trigger an emotional response. 112 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: They're imprinted in our brains. Rags to riches story like 113 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: Anaicle Smith or bad boys stories like Charlie Sheen. They're 114 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: very familiar to us, and so they gain traction pretty easily. 115 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: And because we are all sort of exposed in different 116 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: levels to these celebrities, it makes sense that Fred English, 117 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: who authored A Short History of Celebrity, describes celebrity as 118 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: a type of quote unquote social adhesive because I mean 119 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: it can help us find common ground it gives us 120 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: something to talk about. And when you don't know someone 121 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: very well, if you can find a celebrity or a 122 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: television show or a book that you have in common 123 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: Boom conversation. I mean I know every party I go to, 124 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: I talk about Ryan Gosling. Hear that. I mean, I 125 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: really don't talk about anything else. Sorr Well, Ryan Gosling 126 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: and Cortes pretty much all I talk about. But Daniel 127 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: Boorsten back in nineteen sixty two had a different theory. 128 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: He said that, um, we are subbing in celebrities for 129 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: gods and heroes of your Basically, we're losing our religion, 130 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: we're losing our traditions, and so we are looking to 131 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: these beautiful rich people to fill holes left. Well, but 132 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: you still have room for real life heroes too, of say, uh, 133 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: maybe a Hillary Clinton or a insert famous athlete whose 134 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: name isn't readily coming to mind. But no matter whether 135 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: that person is a movie star or a politician or 136 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: an athlete, who remember, they are Evolutionary psychology maintains that 137 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: it's really ingrained in our humanity to want to, you know, 138 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: pay attention to higher status people, right exactly, Yeah, like 139 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: Slate calm this Robert Wright who wrote that keeping up 140 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: with all of the gossip about people, whether it's people 141 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: at work, you know, celebrities in the news, it can 142 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: quote inform social maneuvering for sex and other vital resources. 143 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: And that sort of information about who's up, who's down, 144 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: who's doing what, who's doing whom uh is the sort 145 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: of information that's conducive to fitness. Yeah, and also it's 146 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: Slate calumnist Jack Schaefer even ties it to reproduction, saying that, well, 147 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: we're paying attention to these people and who they're having 148 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: babies with. I mean thinking about how, oh my god, 149 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: pregnancy pictures of movie stars these days. It's kind of crazy. 150 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: And in a very simplicit kind of way, Schaefer describes how, 151 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: way way back in you know, our our human ancestors time, 152 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: we didn't need an US Weekly to tell us what 153 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: the higher status individuals were doing, who they were having 154 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: babies with. You look around, you see your group, and 155 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: you know what's up. But today we almost need the 156 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: celebrity culture to keep us clued in to what the 157 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: higher status folk are up to and wearing and buying 158 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: and where they're vacationing. Right, and he opines that women 159 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: make up the bulk of the readers of tabloids and 160 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: the subjects of tabloids because we are supposedly checking out 161 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: the alpha competition. Well, I wonder if that's you could 162 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: make that same kind of statement to about Like, Yeah, 163 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: women might pay attention more attention to Hollywood, but plenty 164 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: of guys are watching ESPN for a lot of hours 165 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: of a day too. Yeah. So in all of this 166 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: kind of constant checking on our favorite celebrities or least 167 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: favorite celebrities, depending, you know, we're kind of seeing that 168 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: they've succeeded in society. Maybe we want to attain some 169 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: of what they have. But when you start focusing too 170 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: much on some things, you might start to become obsessive 171 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: and actually developed celebrity worship syndrome. Yeah, this is an 172 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: actual sessive addictive disorder in which, as you might guess, 173 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: a person becomes overly involved with the details of US 174 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: celebrities life. And this really came to light uh in 175 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: two thousand two when a team of psychologists developed the 176 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: Celebrity Attitude Scale to rank people along the spectrum of 177 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: how deeply embedded celebrity culture is in their lives right, 178 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: and they found three dimensions to celebrity worship, basically three 179 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: tiers of how freaking obsessed you are and how much 180 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: of a role it plays in your life. You've got 181 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: the bottom tier, which is entertainment social. It basically has 182 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: attitudes like I just like to chat with a friend 183 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 1: about how hot this celebrity is. UM. It just reflects 184 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: the social aspects of celebrity worship, getting around the water cooler, 185 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: talking about the hot GUYE on the show last night. 186 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: There's the next tire, which is intense personal and it 187 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: reflects individuals intensive and compulsive feelings around the celebrity. So 188 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 1: you're not just talking about what a good character the 189 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: kid is or whatever. You're going into fandom. Then the 190 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: next here is borderline pathological, which is basically like if 191 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: X y Z celebrity told me to steal, I would 192 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: do it. Yeah. It's that level of obsession where you 193 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: get into scarier issues of stalking UM and speaking to 194 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: the BBC, Dr John Malty, who is a cycle instructor 195 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: at the University of Leicester who has studied the celebrity 196 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: worship syndrome, says that around one person of people that 197 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: he studied at least show more of those obsessional tendencies. 198 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 1: But a majority of us are on that first here 199 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: of the entertainment social we pay attention. We might you know, 200 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: go to I don't know, Delisted every now and then, 201 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: but it doesn't consume our lives. Sure exactly, Um, but 202 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, I mean this this us move out of 203 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: the realm of real, live people and back to what 204 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: we started talking about at the top of the podcast, 205 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: which is fan fiction developing relationships with characters not necessarily 206 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: real people. Yeah, you can develop very real in a 207 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: way para social relationships, not just with celebrities on the street, 208 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: but also with either characters that celebrities might be portraying 209 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: in shows or you know, in literature, with your favorite 210 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: characters in books. And NPR commentator Jake halpern I had 211 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: a great piece about this, talking about his paras social 212 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: relationship with a cast of cheers. I loved it, I know, 213 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 1: or he just really wanted to go and hang out 214 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: with him. He felt like he could go and get 215 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: a beer and make conversation, right, And it goes back 216 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: to that continuing relationship that that Horton and Wall talked 217 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: about when they coined the term para social relationship just 218 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: that you know, Helper and watches the show every week. 219 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: He knows what Cliff and arm we're talking about at 220 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: the bar, and he wants to join them, and that 221 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 1: relationship feels all the stronger for the fact that he 222 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: checks in with them every week and they're exactly the same. 223 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: That's another big part of these paras social relationships with 224 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: characters is that they're kind of always the same. Yeah, 225 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: And I kind of experienced this earlier this year with 226 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: Breaking Bad and and in a not so positive sense, 227 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: like I did not want to go hang out with Walt, 228 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, but I in order to catch 229 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: up for the final season. And don't worry, I'm not 230 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: going to spoil anything for anyone who hasn't seen all 231 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: of it, um, but in order to catch up, I 232 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: binge watched it because a lot of it was on Netflix. 233 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: And I found myself, Caroline, thinking about Jessie and Walt, 234 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: and you know, like in reactions to like things would 235 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: happen in my day, and I think, oh, Skyler would 236 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: totally not be down with that, you know, like it 237 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: was starting to get weird. And the beginning of the 238 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: show when I had very low investment. That wasn't something 239 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: that I ever thought would happen, but I developed a 240 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: very real, kind of strange and unwanted attachment to these characters. 241 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: But when it comes to the thought of making emotional 242 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: psychological connections with fictional characters or with celebrities, you might think, well, 243 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: that might be a sign that something is not so 244 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: well adjusted, either in your social life or your brain. 245 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: But research bears out different and kind of counterintuitive results, 246 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: which we will get into. And we come right back 247 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: from a quick break and now back to the podcast. 248 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: So we were just talking about connections to characters on TV, 249 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: characters and movies. Uh, fake people who you develop these 250 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: connections with after repeated viewings of a show, And Kristen 251 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: had been saying that, you know, a lot of the 252 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: research is counterintuitive that you would think like the loneliest, 253 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: saddest people would be the ones to develop all these relationships, 254 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: and that's not necessary. They're really true, although some studies 255 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: have connected some degree of loneliness with these para social relationships. Yeah, 256 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: there was a study published in the Journal of Experimental 257 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: Psychology that it came out in two thousand nine, and 258 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: it essentially found that absolutely these familiar television shows are 259 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: sort of loneliness bridges for us. We turn it on 260 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: to kind of keep his company. Maybe if we're at 261 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: home alone or if we are going through sort of 262 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: a downer period, we might be more likely to watch 263 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: our favorite television shows. Right, And they just said that 264 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: it's basically a lot less work to turn on the 265 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: TV than too struggle to maintain connections with real people, 266 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: if especially if you are feeling down, And they tested 267 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: the social surrogacy hypothesis, theorizing that loneliness actually motivates people 268 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: to seek out relationships even if those relationships aren't real. 269 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: Which not to make me sound like I'm off the 270 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: charts on the Paris Social Relationship Skill, Caroline. This also 271 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: reminds me of when I a while ago went through 272 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,479 Speaker 1: a pretty awful breakup and I just started compulsively out 273 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: of nowhere watching How I Met Your Mother, and I 274 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: had to have it on, like in like a couple 275 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: of weeks, Like I just had to have it on 276 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: in the background, just to have something on. And even 277 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: though I don't love the show, but I couldn't stop 278 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: watching the show, you know, and it's about like and 279 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: it totally makes sense reading this research because it's about 280 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: a group of friends like who are dealing with relationships. Yeah, exactly. 281 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: And when I lived by myself in Augusta, you know, 282 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: I'd be cooking dinner at night and I would find 283 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: myself turning the TV on to feel less kind of 284 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: lonely during dinner time, you know, like having those voices 285 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: they're having people on TV, either reading the news or 286 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: a sitcom or something made it feel like the house 287 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: was full. And if we move from things like television 288 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: programs back in to the realm of fan fiction and 289 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: getting more online with shipping and one true pairing, I 290 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: think it serves a similar kind of not just as 291 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: a creative outlet, but also I think it does serve 292 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: as social function as well, because with one true pairing 293 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: in particular, people are so heavily invested in these couples. 294 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: And it's funny though, like side note how Ross and 295 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: Rachel from Friends are examples of almost every trope yeah 296 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: in in fan fiction, because like you could look at 297 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: them as the one true pairing, you can also look 298 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: at them as going through the quote unquote official couple 299 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: or deal syndrome, where you know, people are identifying with 300 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: these characters, but these characters are being put through hell 301 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: there the show creators are toying with your emotions. But 302 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: then what's interesting to see with one true pairing is 303 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: that it's so more active than us just passively watching 304 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: television or even just having it on in the background, 305 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: because they really become the architects of these fictional characters 306 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: live to the point that you get into slash fiction 307 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: where characters are having sex with other characters, and they're 308 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: all sorts of different pairings, whether it's a ho yea 309 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: ship which is homo erotic positive shipping, or sister ship 310 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: which yep, gets incestuous uh and on and on and on, 311 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: and this this is such a deeper level of investment. Yeah, well, 312 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's worth looking at how you 313 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: even get that involved, because I don't think. I mean, 314 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: there have been a few characters I just don't watch 315 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: a lot of TV disclaimer, but there have been characters 316 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 1: historically where I have been like super invested in them. 317 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: You know, I am obsessed with them almost, but I 318 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: have no idea what's behind that and what even got 319 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: me there. And one example that I can think of 320 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: is during high school when I'm going to bring it up, Christen, 321 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: when I watched La fem Nikita, Okay, my favorite show. 322 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: How many times have I mentioned this? But so I'm 323 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: a teen in high school and I'm watching this really 324 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: incredibly powerful kick butt woman every week, and you know, 325 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: it was toying with my emotions because they were going 326 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: to cancel that show like three thousand different times, but 327 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: that she stayed on the air, and I just I 328 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: really did feel like I developed this relationship with her, like, well, 329 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: if only she knew me, But she's fake, so she doesn't. 330 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,479 Speaker 1: But it's interesting you say, though, that you were in 331 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: high school, because one factor that psychologists have identified as 332 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: sort of predisposing you to forming paras social relationships is 333 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: being in periods of transition. I was going through a 334 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: breakup when I went through my How I Met your 335 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: Mother almost dark spell, I wouldn't leave my apartment. Um, 336 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: and you were going through high school. Is there a 337 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: more transitional time than that, right? And so yeah, people 338 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: who end up with this over the time, either celebrity 339 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: worship for real life people or paras social relationships with characters, 340 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: they tend to be going through life transitions and the 341 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: same goes for elderly folks. That's another big period of 342 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: transition with limited mobility. And one study was looking specifically 343 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: at the paras social relationships that elderly people form with 344 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: like TV shopping hosts. Because they are in that period 345 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: of transition where maybe they don't see their family as much, 346 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: they have fewer sources of information. They are more susceptible 347 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: to these paras social relationships because they can't get out 348 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: and so they are lonely. We have said already that 349 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: loneliness is a motivating factor for pursuing connections, and so 350 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: they end up being more likely to overuse TV shopping 351 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: channels because those hosts are like friends to them because 352 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: they're probably talking directly to them. Right, it's not like 353 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: a sitcom necessarily where I mean, obviously you can develop 354 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: paras social relationships, etcetera, etcetera. But you know, sitcom stars 355 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: are talking to each other. That TV host on the 356 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: shopping network is looking right at you. Ah, that makes 357 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: so much sense in the saddest way possible. I know, 358 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: go hug a grandmother someone. But I mean, research has 359 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: shown that these paras social relationships can influence I mean 360 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: so much. They can influence our views of social issues 361 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: like gay rights. If there are gay characters on TV 362 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: then and you feel like you know them, then you're 363 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: more likely to change your view of gay rights. It 364 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: can even influence teens views of how to achieve goals 365 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: that are related to the development of their identities. Yeah, 366 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: it's one thing that can also make p s a 367 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: s more effective, as if that's why you have celebrities 368 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: who are saying, Hey, uh, don't flush tampons, that's not 369 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: a p s A anyone's ever done, probably, or or 370 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: learn to reading that right. Don't drink and drive, that's 371 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: a p s A thing. You learn to read tampon labels. 372 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: I would make a horrible p s A writer. Um. 373 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: But speaking of tampons, let's talk a little bit about gender, 374 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: because my assumption going into this was that this is 375 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: something that probably is more appealing to women and younger women. 376 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: And it's not that it doesn't occur with a lot 377 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: of women. It's just that men and women both experienced it, 378 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: and we kind of experienced it for different reasons. We 379 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: have different motivations for turning the TV on, and we 380 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: have different motivations for leaving it on and coming back 381 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: week after week. Yeah, there was one interesting study that 382 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: came out in It's a little dated, but it was 383 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: looking at the intersection of dating, gender, and para social relationships, 384 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: and it found that men tended to form stronger ps 385 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: rs with TV characters when they were anxious in their 386 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: dating situation, whereas women were the opposite. We tended to 387 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: form those para social relationships when we were more secure. 388 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: So it was in a way we were we as 389 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: in women were using these characters and TV shows is 390 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: a way of sort of more firmly securing our dating situation. Yeah. 391 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: They they found that women tendencye TV as a friend 392 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: or companion, whereas men are turning to TV to solve problems, 393 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: which is pretty interesting. Well, what's also interesting is that 394 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: twilighting the whole team Edward, team Jake. I mean, Twilight 395 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: is just rife with para social relationships, fan fiction, one 396 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: true pairing, and go on and on and on. I 397 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: mean to the point that, uh, fifty Shades of Gray 398 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: was born out of the fan fiction. You could call 399 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: it some kind what kind of ship would that be? 400 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: Where you take a Bella character and you pair her 401 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: up with a guy who's really into B D S M. 402 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm sure it exists. Um. But Twilighting, though, 403 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: is a double form of para social relationship where you 404 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: have fans of Twilight who transpose their para social relationships 405 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: with characters in the book onto actors, right, right, And 406 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 1: so that led Robert Pattinson at one point to say, like, 407 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: they know that I'm playing a character, right, I'm I'm 408 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: just some brit from you know, over across the pond. 409 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: I'm not a guy. But those kinds of para social 410 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: relationships they do have really that they do have really 411 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: real results. Is they are a more eloquent way to 412 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: say that it's really real, but they do have results 413 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: on us, not just in terms of making PSA is 414 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: more effective, etcetera, etcetera, or alleviating loneliness for the time being, 415 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: but also when those characters like Robert Pattinson and Kristin Stewart, 416 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: Bella and Edward break up, we also feel that too. 417 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: Oh the horror, the heartbreak. No, I mean yeah, And 418 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: these these breakup feelings can be felt for characters in 419 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: a movie or on TV, or for real life people 420 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: who you don't know but you sure are sad. About 421 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: their divorce. Yeah, I had, really it made me feel 422 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: a word to myself, having a an emotional reaction to 423 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: the announcement of Amy Poehler and well our nets divorced 424 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: two people I would love to meet, probably never will 425 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 1: and who I thought was, Oh, I love both of 426 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: the things that they do in television and movies. Why 427 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: did I care? It was the strangest thing, Caroline. Yeah, 428 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: I mean I I've felt that too, you know, just 429 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: like extreme sadness over like you guys can't work it out, 430 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: there's not anything. What happened, what happened, what happened. And so, Kristen, 431 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: not to make this completely about La fem Nikita, like 432 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: I do everything, but they have been studies that look 433 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 1: at people's feelings about the end of a show and 434 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: so the end of a relationship a para social relationship 435 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 1: that they have with the character. And like I said, 436 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, USA was going to cancel A fem Nikita 437 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: like fifteen thousand times, and the fan base, I mean 438 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: I was only in high school, but like the active 439 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: online fan base went crazy and actually got the show 440 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: back because people were so intensely invested in the story. Yeah, 441 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: Jonathan Cohen is a researcher who has done a couple 442 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: of studies actually on these para social breakups, and he's 443 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: found in a nutshell that yes, we do feel them too, 444 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: but the level that we feel them is very much 445 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: tied to our psychological attachment style. You hear this a 446 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: lot with a relationship psychology, where you are usually fall 447 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: into one or three categories of being securely attached, avoidantly attached. 448 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: Was just like who don't call me, I'll call you, 449 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: or you have anxious attachment, And people who are more 450 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: anxiously attached, people who might be in real life a 451 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: little more nervous about the status of their relationships, tend 452 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: to feel these kinds of para social breakups a little 453 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: more strongly than avoidantly or securely attached people, right, and 454 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: Cohen was saying that because it's not necessarily the people 455 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: we would think having these para social relationships, that we 456 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: should probably view PSRs as an extension of people's social relationships, 457 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: not necessarily compensation for a lack of them, because like 458 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: we said, you know, men are if they're anxious about 459 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: their relationships, they'll turn to TV. If women are feeling 460 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: great about theirs, they'll turn to TV. It's not necessarily 461 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: that you completely avoid human contact, because he argues, if 462 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: you were an avoidant personality, you wouldn't want to create 463 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: relationships with characters on TV either, right, right, Well, and 464 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: it's also good to point out too, that there have 465 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: been a number of studies, you know, confirming and reconfirming 466 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: that para social relationships are not red flags that you 467 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: are a shut in and don't know how to make friends. 468 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: It's actually more tied to characteristics of extraversion and sociability. 469 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: It's like you said, it's an extension of these relationships. Um, 470 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: there's one other study which found that we tend to 471 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: rate these characters as closer than acquaintances, but not as 472 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: close as close friends. That's good, Yeah, yeah, that is 473 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: that's good. I'm I'm glad that we do rate our 474 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: friends higher than fictional characters. And to bring up yet 475 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: another gendered aspect of this research, Cohen points out in 476 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: his study of basically anticipating the end of a series 477 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: that women who generally report stronger PSRs did not report 478 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: expecting higher levels of distress as the show was ending 479 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: in their relationships with these characters are ending, and he 480 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: says that that probably has something to do with the 481 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: fact that we're better able to cope with the end 482 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: of real life relationships slightly better than men anyway, well 483 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: and regardless of gender. The one thing that with all 484 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: of this information on para social breakups, great part about 485 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: shipping and once pre pairing in fandom and online fan 486 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: fiction and all these communities that exist is that you 487 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: never have to break up. Now you can simply dive 488 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: into these new worlds and create these new worlds and 489 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: new relationships. And and we also now have like more 490 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: accessibility to real life celebrities than ever before. And you 491 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: also have I bet there's some listeners who might be 492 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: familiar with the YouTube series The Lizzie Bennett Diaries, where 493 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: they did an incredible job of having social media updates 494 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: in real time as the show is going on. So 495 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: you felt like you knew these characters as people because 496 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: they're in your Twitter feeds making comments and people got, 497 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, so into it. I think because of that 498 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: closer relationship they were able to form. Mhm. This is interesting. 499 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: It is interesting. I mean, it definitely made me think 500 00:30:53,280 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: about my media consumption differently. Yeah, it made me extra 501 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: thankful that I don't do much TV watching. Although you 502 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: know what, I will say this Sally, my mother, Sally 503 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: like goes she would be so embarrassed if she knew 504 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: I was saying this. She goes to the store every 505 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: Friday to pick up the new tabloid round um, and 506 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: when I go home for dinner or whatever, like, she'll 507 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: hand them off to me. And so that's the only 508 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: time I ever read tabloids is when Sally hands them 509 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: to me. And it's easy to get caught up in that, 510 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: Like as you're reading it, I'm like, oh, my god, 511 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: she's pregnant again, or like, oh, she looks so beautiful 512 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,719 Speaker 1: in that design her gown, you know, like it's I 513 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: can see how it is very easy to get caught 514 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: up in in the celebrity worship. Yeah, I mean, And 515 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: since this is a podcast, I feel like I need 516 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: to admit my own paras social podcast relationships that I 517 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: have with the ones that I listened to on a 518 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: regular basis, Like Professor blast Off fans listen Tigna Taro 519 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: is like a friend to me in my head. I 520 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: wish I wish in my in my living room too. Well, 521 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: it's easy because you know, especially It's not like with 522 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: a lot of things like podcasts or whatever. It's not 523 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: like people are very formally talking about very formal things, 524 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: you know. It's it's like we're having a conversation right now, 525 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: and I'm sure people out there also feel included in 526 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: the conversation as we want you to. Yeah. I would 527 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: love for people to form paras social relationships with us, 528 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: yeah for sure. But I hope that this was entertaining. 529 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: I know that we covered a lot of territory, from 530 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: the fictional to the more celebrity focus stuff, but it 531 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: all ties together, and I don't know, to me, it 532 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: was it was nice to see how the world of fandom, 533 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: which we might think of as as sort of a 534 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: niche thing that we might not be that engaged with, 535 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: we all engage in some form of it. Yeah, we 536 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: all do. It's just the fact that I have ever 537 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: felt disappointed that a celebrity couple has broken up, Like 538 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: when I when I saw that Carrie Russell who okay 539 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: here here multi layered. I was obsessed with Felicity when 540 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,479 Speaker 1: it was on TV, and I started rewatching it on 541 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: Netflix not too long ago. So I'm just like Carrie Russell, 542 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: I just freaking love you. I think she's adorable, and 543 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: then she gets married in real life and I think 544 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: her husband's all handsome and she's so pretty and they've 545 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: got this pretty kid. And then I hear that they're 546 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: getting a divorce and I'm like, no, Felicity, No, And 547 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: so well, because that probably ties back into the theory 548 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: of how, you know, we sort of live through them 549 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, and if they're at the top 550 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: of the social hierarchy and and we see them, you know, 551 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: not being able to quote unquote make it work, right, 552 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: then sure it can give us pause, like, well, that 553 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: can't If they can't be perfect, how can I be perfect? 554 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: But I don't think people should feel too bad about it, 555 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: you know, because it's kind of like just if you're 556 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: a freshman in high school looking at the seniors in 557 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: high school and their cool cars and their cool clothes, 558 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: and they get to do things, you know, they have 559 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: you know, cell phones or whatever whatever the kids have 560 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: these days, their snapchats, their snapchats and there roulettes and whatnot. Um, 561 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: it's kind of the same thing. It's just like, what 562 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: are the cool kids doing? Yeah? Yeah, well, I definitely 563 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: want to hear from listeners on this this this ring 564 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: bells for you who do you have a pair of 565 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 1: social relationship with Let us know. You can write to 566 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: us mom Stuff at Discovery dot com or just tweet 567 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff Podcast. You can always send us 568 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: a message over on Facebook. And we've got a couple 569 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you now about our episode 570 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: on gender reveal parties. So I've got one here from Megan, 571 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: and she writes, I have attended a small party, but 572 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: I haven't hosted one. The one I went to had 573 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: no gifts involved in just an hour or so, a 574 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: fun chit chat and a delicious cake. If people want 575 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: to continue to have party like this in all caps, 576 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: she says, go for it. I don't have to bring 577 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: a gift, but I do get cake and get to 578 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: talk to people I mostly like. So sure, but I 579 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: have heard of these parties going a little overboard, and 580 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: I just can't stand behind that. I agree, if you're 581 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: going to have a shower, then that should be the 582 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: only time I should have to buy a gift for 583 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 1: your baby, And too many parties seems like too much work. 584 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: But I am a mom, so I have a different 585 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: point of view than you. Guys, might I like the 586 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: idea of this type of thing. It seems super fun 587 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 1: and I plan to do something similar when my husband 588 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: and I have another child. It wasn't something I knew 589 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: of when I had my daughter, and for me, and 590 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: like the party I went to, I will likely only 591 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: invite close family and friends, provide cake, and keep it short. 592 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: But I think sharing that moment when you find out 593 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: whether you're having a boy or a girl, it's kind 594 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: of sweet. Whether we have some kind of dyed cake, 595 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: or I sing or stuff balloons in a box, I 596 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: don't know, but most of these I've seen her pretty 597 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: cute and make for an adorable picture. To me, it 598 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: just seems like one of those things that if someone 599 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: wants to take the effort to do it, let them 600 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: have it, as long as they don't expect too much 601 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,959 Speaker 1: of other people. So thanks Megan. You know, right after 602 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: we recorded that episode, I got on Facebook and a 603 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: friend of mine from college had posted pictures of her 604 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: gender revealed party, and I looked at the picture and 605 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: I was like, is this what I think it is? 606 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: Because it was a picture of a small white cake 607 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: and on it were two football helmets and one was 608 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: pink and one was blue and it said pink versus blue. 609 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: And then the next picture was the cut cake that 610 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: had pink cake inside of it. I was like, man, 611 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: Kristen and I are on the ball. We got our 612 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: fingers on the pulse. That's right, of something, of something. 613 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: The cake trends um well. This letter is from Jennifer. 614 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: She said, in November, I found out that not only 615 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: was I pregnant, but that I was twenty six weeks pregnant. 616 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: Three negative pregnancy tests, no weight gain, and very mild symptoms, 617 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: all of which could be put down to other things, 618 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: led me to believe I was going through early menopause. 619 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: I found out at a regular doctor's appointment. My husband 620 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: got off work or early that day and we got 621 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: an ultras down that afternoon. We had already had too 622 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: many surprises that day and decided not to find out 623 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: the gender at the time, so we were given a 624 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: sealed envelope. We wanted to keep the surprise for a while, 625 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: and we wanted to make sure not to get too 626 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: many gender specific clothes, toys, or decor for our child. However, 627 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: both of our mothers were really keen to know where 628 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: they whether they were getting a granddaughter or a grandson. Also, 629 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: answering the question got to be kind of an annoyance. 630 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: With the agreement of the friends who were throwing our 631 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: shower for us. In January twelve, we gave the envelope 632 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: to our cake maker another friend and had her do 633 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 1: a gender reveal cake for our baby shower. That way, 634 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: a lot of the gifts we would get would be 635 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: gender neutral, we wouldn't be having a second party that 636 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: people might think they were required to bring gifts for, 637 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: and we could answer the question and share our reaction 638 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: with an awful lot of people at once. Because our 639 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: mothers and extended families lived more than a thousand miles 640 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,439 Speaker 1: away from us in opposite directions, they couldn't be there, 641 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: but we were able to have friends set up webcams 642 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: for live streaming so that everyone could share the info. 643 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: One cutting into that cake and pulling out the pink 644 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: slice was a wonderful moment for us to share with 645 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: our families and our extended chosen families. A k A friend, 646 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,439 Speaker 1: I will say that I am a bit unsure about 647 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: making it a whole separate party, and very much of 648 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: the belief that it is crassed beyond acceptability to make 649 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: it a second expected gift giving event. So thank you, Jennifer. 650 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: I think your story is great and I'm glad you 651 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: got to share your special moment with people via webcam. 652 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: And thanks to everybody who's written in to us. Mom 653 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: Stuff at Discovery dot com is our email address and 654 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: the only other address you need to know. To find 655 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: all things stuff Mom Never told you, including every single podcast, blog, video, 656 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: and social media link, head on over to stuff Mom 657 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: Never told You dot com for more on this and 658 00:38:49,160 --> 00:39:00,439 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is how stuff Works dot com