Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening and enjoy the podcast. Art Mark Men is
Speaker 1: here today. I'm really excited about this interview. Art You're
Speaker 1: a professor of psychology and marketing at the University of
Speaker 1: Texas at Austin. You can sult for companies and trust
Speaker 1: in using cognitive science and their businesses. You're in the
Speaker 1: scientific advisory boards for the Doctor of phil Show and
Speaker 1: The Doctor Oz Show, and most recently your author of
Speaker 1: the book Smart Change. Even though recently has found that
Speaker 1: fifty percent of the things Doctor Oz says are incorrect,
Speaker 1: maybe he needs you now more than ever. I can
Speaker 1: only hope. Yeah, yeah, you know, I was. I was, Yeah,
Speaker 1: fifty percent. That's that's probably about right. You know, it
Speaker 1: turns out. I mean, I do this weekly radio show
Speaker 1: here in Austin, and and it's seven and a half
Speaker 1: minutes long. It's called Two Guys on Your Head, and
Speaker 1: I can only imagine how much, And and we we
Speaker 1: go through all kinds of gyrations to come up with
Speaker 1: seven and a half minutes of content once a week.
Speaker 1: So if you've got to do an hour a day,
Speaker 1: you know, I can only imagine how quickly you run
Speaker 1: out of new ways to scare people. Yeah, that's that's true.
Speaker 1: So I want to start off with was one of
Speaker 1: most fundamental questions that your book addresses, and that's why
Speaker 1: is it so darn hard to change our habits? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So the thing about habit change is that most people
Speaker 1: who set about trying to change their habits, they do
Speaker 1: it without how having any understanding it all about the
Speaker 1: way that the mind works, and so they spend a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of time working against themselves to rather than
Speaker 1: working with the way that the habit system and the
Speaker 1: motivational system actually operate, and so often you actually end
Speaker 1: up failing in your attempts to change behavior from the
Speaker 1: very moment that you set out and describe what it
Speaker 1: is that you're trying to do. And so the idea
Speaker 1: behind smart change was, let's start by teaching people a
Speaker 1: little bit about the way the mind works, and in
Speaker 1: particular focusing on habits and motivation, and then step back
Speaker 1: from that and say, given that, here are some very
Speaker 1: specific tools that you can use that work with what
Speaker 1: we know about the way that motivation works, so that
Speaker 1: you can be as effective as possible at trying to
Speaker 1: change behavior. And that's sort of the underlying idea of
Speaker 1: the book. Why is habits so hard to change? I'm
Speaker 1: not sure I got the answer from that. Well, so
Speaker 1: what makes habits so hard to change is that, well, things,
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that makes habits hard
Speaker 1: to change is that we do things. The things that
Speaker 1: we do by habit we do utterly mindlessly. I mean,
Speaker 1: the whole point of having a habit is that you've
Speaker 1: now associated a behavior with a particular environment, and so
Speaker 1: you can do that behavior without actually having to think
Speaker 1: about it, which is great. Most of the time. You know,
Speaker 1: your morning routine would be an absolute disaster if you
Speaker 1: had to think about every single thing you were going
Speaker 1: to do. Where's my toothbrush? You know? What do I
Speaker 1: do next? So here's the deal on habit. We most
Speaker 1: of the time our habits are really good things. Now,
Speaker 1: think about your morning routine. You get up in the morning,
Speaker 1: you brush your teeth, you wash your hair, you do
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and you don't have to think about
Speaker 1: anything that you're doing because you can do each step
Speaker 1: at home in the way that you always do it.
Speaker 1: You have associated that situation with that set of behaviors,
Speaker 1: and you know how valuable this is. Because if you travel,
Speaker 1: you go to a hotel, now suddenly nothing's worth it
Speaker 1: suppose to be. You can't remember all the steps you're
Speaker 1: supposed to take. You can't even find your toothbrush, and frankly,
Speaker 1: right by the time you get dressed and stumble out
Speaker 1: of your hotel room, you're exhausted because you've had to
Speaker 1: spend the whole morning thinking about every single aspect of
Speaker 1: your behavior. So habits are great most of the time
Speaker 1: because they allow us to do these things mindlessly. Now
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why habits are hard to change,
Speaker 1: because they're mindless. The second thing that makes them hard
Speaker 1: to change is that a lot of the times our
Speaker 1: habits are influencing what it is we like, what it
Speaker 1: is we want to do, and we are wired to
Speaker 1: really want to do things that are going to feel
Speaker 1: right for us in the short term. A lot of
Speaker 1: times when we're trying to behavior and change our habits.
Speaker 1: We're trying to switch to start doing things that are
Speaker 1: going to be good for us in the long term,
Speaker 1: but maybe not so good for us in the short term.
Speaker 1: So we're going to stop eating that really delicious ice
Speaker 1: cream and hopefully, you know, have a better beach ready
Speaker 1: body by summer. We're going to exercise more, or we're
Speaker 1: gonna stop checking email every thirty seconds and actually try
Speaker 1: to get things written. All of that is it requires
Speaker 1: us to go against the things that we want to
Speaker 1: do in the short term in order to do things
Speaker 1: that are better for us in the long term. And
Speaker 1: both of those are really hard to do. So both
Speaker 1: of those are reasons why habits are really hard to change.
Speaker 1: They sure are. Have you personally tried to change any
Speaker 1: habits that you have through your own theory? You know
Speaker 1: I have. I've done several different things. One is that
Speaker 1: I'm actually I lost about forty pounds about ten, ten
Speaker 1: or eleven years ago, congratulations, thank you. And I've managed
Speaker 1: to keep most of that forty pounds off. And a
Speaker 1: lot of what I did there is it involves things
Speaker 1: that are related to what is in the book, and
Speaker 1: I can use that as an example throughout here if
Speaker 1: you want, Yeah, that would be really helpful. And I
Speaker 1: can also bring in my own personal examples. I want
Speaker 1: you to help sear me of to lose a couple pounds.
Speaker 1: I don't know about forty, but I can't imagine why
Speaker 1: you'd want to do that better. I'd like to lose
Speaker 1: a couple And I would also very much like to
Speaker 1: stop picking my nails. Really, you know, I stopped biting
Speaker 1: my nails really, and yeah, and and and that's another example.
Speaker 1: I actually use that in the book, and I can
Speaker 1: I can help you with that. Oh please do I would,
Speaker 1: I would give you the biggest hug. Well, well, let
Speaker 1: me so, let's actually this. Let's use that as an
Speaker 1: example for so. I bit my nails from the time
Speaker 1: I was five years old until I was in grad
Speaker 1: school down to the down to the stuff. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was really disastrous and uh and and I nothing
Speaker 1: stopped it, right, But you know, my mom would nag
Speaker 1: me endlessly as a kid, and she she actually would
Speaker 1: get that hot pepper stuff that she would put on
Speaker 1: my nails. And all that succeeded in doing was making
Speaker 1: me like spicy food. Nothing work. But but the very
Speaker 1: first thing you have to do it is is actually
Speaker 1: too because hows are done mindlessly. You actually have to
Speaker 1: take two weeks and fill out a habit diary where
Speaker 1: figure out when you're doing it okay, and when you're
Speaker 1: doing it, what you're feeling, what the situation was, and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And if you don't have a sheet
Speaker 1: of paper handy for a habit diary, you can download one.
Speaker 1: I have this website, smartthinkingbook dot com. You go to
Speaker 1: the smart change tab and there's a free diary. There's
Speaker 1: a free iPhone app journal. So is that iPhone app?
Speaker 1: I don't have an iPhone app yet? I ought to?
Speaker 1: You ought to Someone listening to this podcast should give
Speaker 1: you lots of money to make to make an eye
Speaker 1: develop it. Yeah, yeah, but I have a smart change journal.
Speaker 1: You can download that thing for free. It's got a
Speaker 1: fourteen day habit diary in it. So what you want
Speaker 1: to do is before you even try to make any changes,
Speaker 1: just watch yourself for two weeks. Ask yourself, when am
Speaker 1: I doing this, Where am I doing it, how am
Speaker 1: I feeling and stuff like that. And I actually did that.
Speaker 1: So when I was in grad school, I finally realized,
Speaker 1: you know what this nail biting thing is not going
Speaker 1: to get me any dates. So so I decided it
Speaker 1: was time to stop. And I started by figuring out
Speaker 1: when do I do this? And I discovered that I
Speaker 1: would bite my nail sitting at my desk reading. So
Speaker 1: I would you know, because when you're a grad student,
Speaker 1: that's pretty much your life you spent. You sit at
Speaker 1: a desk and you read stuff. So while I was
Speaker 1: reading articles, I would bite my nails. And so I
Speaker 1: actually went out and and now you so now now
Speaker 1: it comes to the second principle. Now you have to
Speaker 1: you have to change your behavior. Here's the place where
Speaker 1: most people failed when they change behaviors, because they start
Speaker 1: by saying, I need to stop biting my nails. Now,
Speaker 1: the problem with that is that's a negative goal. Why
Speaker 1: is that a problem because it's something you don't want
Speaker 1: to do. And the reason that that's a problem is
Speaker 1: because your habit learning system is an active system. It
Speaker 1: wants to associate behaviors with the environment. If if you
Speaker 1: say I don't want to do something, then what you're
Speaker 1: doing is focusing yourself on not acting well. The habit
Speaker 1: learning system can't learn not to do something. So so
Speaker 1: every time that you don't act. Your habit learning system
Speaker 1: doesn't learn anything. There's nothing to learn. So what you
Speaker 1: need to do instead is to create positive goals, positive
Speaker 1: actions that you're going to perform in a particular situation.
Speaker 1: So what you want to do is to create a
Speaker 1: new set of actions that's going to interfere with what
Speaker 1: you're doing. Now. Now, for me, since I would bite
Speaker 1: my nails while I was sitting at my desk reading,
Speaker 1: I bought a bunch of desk toys. Oh wow, you
Speaker 1: know what I tried. By the way I pick my nails,
Speaker 1: I don't bite them, Okay, But something I tried is
Speaker 1: carrying a motion around with me every verey when and
Speaker 1: whenever I feel the urge to pick my nails, I rub. Well,
Speaker 1: here's what I would say is it's really useful to
Speaker 1: find a behavior that's going to interfere with the thing
Speaker 1: you're trying to stop doing. So something you can do
Speaker 1: while you would normally be picking at your nails, that
Speaker 1: that would make it hard to do that, But but
Speaker 1: that behavior is more benign, Like what's a good example. Well,
Speaker 1: that's why I play with desk toys because because it's
Speaker 1: a relatively benign thing to do, and it's really awkward
Speaker 1: to try and in my case, bite your nails while
Speaker 1: you're playing with a dusk st So you don't think
Speaker 1: the motion idea is that good? Then oh it could be.
Speaker 1: It could be. It's just it's just it's just the
Speaker 1: question is that enough? Is that? Do you need to
Speaker 1: do something else as well, just to just to take
Speaker 1: up the time when you might normally be picking at
Speaker 1: your nails. Okay, but that's the key. So you got
Speaker 1: to figure out when you're doing it and then just
Speaker 1: find I mean, could be great. I mean my feeling
Speaker 1: is anything that will that will get in the way
Speaker 1: of what you were doing, and that's a more benign
Speaker 1: behavior is a good thing. Okay, So this applies across
Speaker 1: the border. Christ applies to trying to lose weight. I
Speaker 1: guess every time you want you you see something really
Speaker 1: juicy that you want to eat. Yeah, just you just
Speaker 1: you play with blocks instead. Well, so so let's let's
Speaker 1: take this in stage right. The first thing about losing
Speaker 1: weight is you don't want to define the problem in
Speaker 1: terms of losing weight for two reasons. One, because your
Speaker 1: your main focus might be wow, let me let me
Speaker 1: eat less. You want to create a more positive behave
Speaker 1: You're meaning you want to ask yourself, is there a
Speaker 1: way of preparing lower you know, uh, foods that are
Speaker 1: that are better for you? You know, are you eating
Speaker 1: out so often? And if you eat out often and
Speaker 1: you can't avoid eating out, then you know, one of
Speaker 1: the great things you can do is to try and
Speaker 1: get restaurants to give you to you know, to to
Speaker 1: box stuff up in parts, you know, like like take
Speaker 1: a full portion, because portions of portion size the restaurants
Speaker 1: are almost always too big. You're almost always going to
Speaker 1: eat too much in this country. In this country, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right, and so so why you know, ask get
Speaker 1: the restaurant to pack that into into you know, two containers.
Speaker 1: Now you've got. Now you've got dinner tonight and lunch tomorrow. Right,
Speaker 1: so you can save money and lose weight at the
Speaker 1: same time. But you want to do it positively, right,
Speaker 1: You want to you want to think about this in
Speaker 1: terms of actions you're performing, because once you start eating,
Speaker 1: if you've got a jam on the brakes, right, you've
Speaker 1: got you've got a small amount of brain material in
Speaker 1: the frontal lobes of the brain, right, a couple ounces
Speaker 1: of brain material. Thanks you're saying I do personally, which
Speaker 1: is true. Well, everyone does at best. We have a
Speaker 1: couple of ounss of brain material that's supposed that that's
Speaker 1: that's the last thing that's going to get in the
Speaker 1: way once our behavior starts down the track. Yes, right,
Speaker 1: and and and so you don't want to have to
Speaker 1: rely on that system. I call that the stop system
Speaker 1: that inhibits the behavior that you're trying to start. You
Speaker 1: don't want to be relying on that stop system, uh
Speaker 1: too often. You could rather be trying to focus on
Speaker 1: getting the right behaviors to get engaged, rather than having
Speaker 1: to stop yourself all the time from doing the wrong thing. Well,
Speaker 1: that's a great, great way of conceptualizing it. You what,
Speaker 1: the automatic system to automatically not have the urge to
Speaker 1: do something? Why do I have the urge to pick
Speaker 1: my nails because I'm nervous? Uh, you know, it could
Speaker 1: be all kinds of things. At some point it was
Speaker 1: rewarding for you. You know, the chances are the reason
Speaker 1: you do it now is because you've always done it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think at some point in the past it might
Speaker 1: have been nerves. It might have just been that it
Speaker 1: felt good. You know who knows right, But but it's
Speaker 1: you know, like most of these habits, at some point,
Speaker 1: you do them because you do them, and the system
Speaker 1: is wired to just keep you doing stuff as long
Speaker 1: as it's not killing you. How do you know? How
Speaker 1: do you know you've got a problem? How do you
Speaker 1: know you've got a habit? What? What? What counts as
Speaker 1: a habit? Well, so you know you have a habit.
Speaker 1: I mean there's two questions there, one how do you
Speaker 1: know you have a habit? Then the other how do
Speaker 1: you know? How do you how do you know you
Speaker 1: have a problem? So most habits can be because most
Speaker 1: habits are great. I have a habit of hugging people.
Speaker 1: Is that good? It could be as long as you're
Speaker 1: out on the subway, you know, and they're total strangers.
Speaker 1: But you know, most of our habits are really good ones. Look,
Speaker 1: you know, you walk into your office, you flip the
Speaker 1: light switch on. You don't have to think about where
Speaker 1: the light switch is. That's a habit. That's a darn
Speaker 1: good habit. Let's talk about where the light switch is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, so you know you have a habit when
Speaker 1: when you're able to do the behavior without thinking about it.
Speaker 1: In fact, you might not even realize you've done it.
Speaker 1: So you know, for me my old house, one of
Speaker 1: my habits, every time I came in from the garage
Speaker 1: into my house, I would pop the button to put
Speaker 1: the garage door down, and then my wife would say,
Speaker 1: did you put the garage door down? And I wouldn't remember,
Speaker 1: and I have to go back into the garage to check.
Speaker 1: I got so tired of checking because I could never
Speaker 1: remember whether and I invariably I had, in fact put
Speaker 1: the door down. I got so tired of checking up.
Speaker 1: We had a window cut between the in the door
Speaker 1: between the house and the garage so that so that
Speaker 1: I could just look and and that, you know, because
Speaker 1: it's one of the signs of a habit is you
Speaker 1: just don't know you did it. But those habits are
Speaker 1: all good, you know, most of those habits are good.
Speaker 1: Then the question is how do you know you have
Speaker 1: a problem right and and there? It's a matter of
Speaker 1: what you know looking around at your life and acting.
Speaker 1: Are there are there big picture goals? What what in
Speaker 1: the book I call contributions using the terms that the
Speaker 1: terminology that that Peter Drucker used, Those big picture things
Speaker 1: are if there are big picture things that you are
Speaker 1: systematically unable to achieve. That's when you have a problem. Okay, right,
Speaker 1: so you know, if if if you want to you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't have this problem. But imagine one
Speaker 1: of you know, one of your listeners wants to wants
Speaker 1: to write a book and can't seem to get it written,
Speaker 1: you know, and they really do want to do it,
Speaker 1: but they just can't they can't do it. Well, what's
Speaker 1: going on? Well, maybe they're checking their email too often, right,
Speaker 1: Maybe they're getting sidetracked onto lots of other things and
Speaker 1: not clearing the time. So so you know, you have
Speaker 1: a problem because you have this goal, this thing you
Speaker 1: really want to do, write a book, and you're not
Speaker 1: able to do it. That's that's your warning sign. That's
Speaker 1: your canary and the coal mine. Okay, and now you've
Speaker 1: got to figure out. Okay, So now I've got this
Speaker 1: thing I really want to do. It's causing me a problem.
Speaker 1: Now now this is something I have to change. And
Speaker 1: notice it's changed, it doesn't stop because because you're never
Speaker 1: you're never going to succeed if all you do is
Speaker 1: try to stop. You have to actually engage a new
Speaker 1: set of behaviors. Yeah, laid down a new automatic foundation, right.
Speaker 1: You know. You you wrote an interesting article on talent
Speaker 1: and how if we don't have early markers that were
Speaker 1: not necessarily out of the race, and you graciously cited
Speaker 1: my book, which I appreciated. My question, my question is
Speaker 1: thank you. My question is, you know, with the writing
Speaker 1: the book thing, a lot of people might get to
Speaker 1: that stage where they're having trouble they really have the goal,
Speaker 1: and they might say it's because I suck, like I'm
Speaker 1: not talented writer. You. I mean, your book is so
Speaker 1: anti uh not anti, but it's just the emphasis is
Speaker 1: so much on what we can change, right, and you're
Speaker 1: arguing there's a lot more we can change that we're
Speaker 1: probably aware of. Yeah, I would say so, And I
Speaker 1: would say that, you know, one of the there's this
Speaker 1: there's this whole stream of work that's come out recently
Speaker 1: that I really like on self compassion. Oh I love
Speaker 1: that work. Yeah, you know, And what I like about
Speaker 1: that work is, you know, what it really says is,
Speaker 1: you know, we are We're all going to fail at things.
Speaker 1: Life is a series of two steps forward and one
Speaker 1: step back, or sometimes even two or three steps back,
Speaker 1: and in those moments when you do something and you fail.
Speaker 1: You have a goal, you know, you want to lose
Speaker 1: weight and you eat too much, or you know you've
Speaker 1: been you've been trying to write a book and you
Speaker 1: write a chapter and it's horrible. You know, those are
Speaker 1: the moments where, uh, you have to take a step
Speaker 1: back and say, all right, that was painful. You know,
Speaker 1: because because anytime you failed something is painful. You don't
Speaker 1: you don't want to anyone who fails, even people who
Speaker 1: are incredibly successful. Most of the time you fail. It
Speaker 1: feels bad. Allow yourself to feel bad, and then say, okay,
Speaker 1: good now I failed, just like everybody else fails. What
Speaker 1: can I learn from this that I do better the
Speaker 1: next time? Right? I mean Pete Heine, the the Dutch poet,
Speaker 1: had this, you know, has that great little He wrote
Speaker 1: these little poems that he called groups and and and
Speaker 1: he had one that he calls the road to wisdom
Speaker 1: and and it's the road to wisdom is to er
Speaker 1: and er and err again, but less less and less
Speaker 1: so great. And I love that, right because because that's
Speaker 1: the way life works. Is even even the best writer
Speaker 1: you've ever seen has written a lot of garbage and
Speaker 1: and you know it, but but they but they learned
Speaker 1: from that, and they you know, and they had days
Speaker 1: where they couldn't get stuff written and then they and
Speaker 1: then they look back and say, well, what was going
Speaker 1: on that day that I couldn't that I couldn't do anything?
Speaker 1: And they learned from each of these experiences. And to me,
Speaker 1: that's a that's one critical part of this is is
Speaker 1: that whenever you're trying to learn to do something, you
Speaker 1: have to you have to realize that that a tremendous
Speaker 1: amount of your ability to get something done involves learning
Speaker 1: how to do it. Now now that you know, we
Speaker 1: talk about talent and skill, you know, and and and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of debate. You know this because you've
Speaker 1: written you've written your wonderful book and gifted. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of debate about the about the relative contributions of
Speaker 1: of your endowment, who you are, on your ability to
Speaker 1: exceeded things and effort and and and you know, I
Speaker 1: think the easiest gloss on all of this work and
Speaker 1: you know you can you can chime in on this
Speaker 1: because because I'm horning in on your territory here, But
Speaker 1: I think the easiest gloss on this is you can
Speaker 1: be better than almost anyone you know at almost anything
Speaker 1: if you if you really work at it. Where talent
Speaker 1: comes in is generally speaking, at the margins. If your
Speaker 1: goal is to be the best in the world at something,
Speaker 1: right you you know, you want to be the best
Speaker 1: sprinter in the world, you know what, you better look
Speaker 1: like Hussein Bolt, no matter how hard you work, you
Speaker 1: better be six five and have springy legs. You know,
Speaker 1: there's there. Talent matters when you're trying to be not
Speaker 1: just really good at it, probably better than anyone you know,
Speaker 1: but when your goal is to be absolutely the best
Speaker 1: in the world at it, and and frank there are
Speaker 1: very few situations in most people's lives in which the
Speaker 1: only way that they can succeed is to be the
Speaker 1: best in the world at something, as opposed to just
Speaker 1: really really darn good at it. I hear you, And
Speaker 1: maybe not you know, for best, but at least maybe
Speaker 1: you can still get at a very very high level
Speaker 1: right without talent. I mean, I I find it very
Speaker 1: interesting how I, personally, you know, didn't test very well
Speaker 1: in i Q tests as a kid, and that my
Speaker 1: accuscer is equivalent of having like being four foot five
Speaker 1: and having dreams of being in the NBA, and I
Speaker 1: dreams of going to Yale, which is the you know
Speaker 1: basically the NBA, right well, and you know, and I
Speaker 1: eventually need it to Yale with a with a with
Speaker 1: a four foot five height or you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not for you know what I'm saying the analogy.
Speaker 1: So I think that like that range is still still
Speaker 1: very very wide. Depends on somebody who went to Brown,
Speaker 1: I'd say, what's the big deal of going to Yale? Uh?
Speaker 1: But no, no, no no, I understand not You're You're absolutely right,
Speaker 1: your science major great. You know, there's a tremendous amount
Speaker 1: to be said for putting an effort on things and
Speaker 1: learning from your mistakes and pushing forward and not giving
Speaker 1: in to the temptation to say, you know, the reason
Speaker 1: I can't do this is because I'm just no good
Speaker 1: at it. No, I think that's that's very sensible. There
Speaker 1: there are critics that you know, talent and intelligence researchers
Speaker 1: who would say, you know, you need to be realistic,
Speaker 1: you need to like assess what your probabilities are and
Speaker 1: don't waste your time. To me, I don't. I think
Speaker 1: you can be realistically optimistic. I don't. I don't really
Speaker 1: you know, this idea of be realistic. I mean I
Speaker 1: could have easily been told be realistic when I was younger,
Speaker 1: don't don't aim your sights at Yale. But and I
Speaker 1: and I would have been, okay, I'll be realistic, and
Speaker 1: I won't, and then I wouldn't have done it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but look what I would say is is and this
Speaker 1: is more philosophical than psychological. That's okay. But the fact is,
Speaker 1: you don't get any do overs in life. This is
Speaker 1: your this is your life. You get. You get one
Speaker 1: chance at it. If there's something you want to do,
Speaker 1: do it, and uh and and and do what you
Speaker 1: can to do the best possible job at it. Because
Speaker 1: you know I and and and now we will get
Speaker 1: to the research, right. You look at Tom Gilovich's research
Speaker 1: on regret, and you know when you when people get
Speaker 1: to the end of their lives, they almost universally regret
Speaker 1: the things they didn't do that they wish they'd done. So,
Speaker 1: you know, don't put yourself in a situation where you're
Speaker 1: going to look back on your life as you reach
Speaker 1: the end and wish there was something you had done.
Speaker 1: That's a really it's really great advice. Arden, And I
Speaker 1: think your book helps people change their habits that might
Speaker 1: be getting in the way of of of living that
Speaker 1: good life, you know, I hope. So look, I think
Speaker 1: all of us who are engaged in this kind of writing,
Speaker 1: you know what. I what I love about the the
Speaker 1: community of of of science psychology writers who are out
Speaker 1: there is that is that really there's a there's so
Speaker 1: much about the field that could help people to live
Speaker 1: their lives in a better way. Uh if if they
Speaker 1: learned a little bit more about the way their minds work.
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of us out there who are
Speaker 1: really trying to help people to do that. And I
Speaker 1: think it's I think it's really important. Uh you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a great opportunity for people to
Speaker 1: really understand enough about themselves to be able to actually
Speaker 1: achieve the big picture things that they want to they
Speaker 1: want to accomplish. Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about goals.
Speaker 1: You you argue that goal setting is very very important.
Speaker 1: Could you unpack a little bit what goal setting is? Yeah? Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: so as I was saying, you know, when we were
Speaker 1: talking a little bit about about food and things like that,
Speaker 1: you know, the thing about our goals is that that
Speaker 1: we there are There are several aspects of our goals.
Speaker 1: The first is we obviously want to create these positive
Speaker 1: goals like we talked about, because because those are actions
Speaker 1: we're performing, rather than setting our goals in a negative way,
Speaker 1: here's something I don't want to do. A second aspect
Speaker 1: of our goals that's really important is that we want
Speaker 1: to focus ourselves as much as possible on the process
Speaker 1: by which we live our lives rather than on the
Speaker 1: outcomes that we want to achieve. So a lot of
Speaker 1: times we tend to say things like I want to
Speaker 1: lose ten pounds. And the problem with saying I want
Speaker 1: to lose ten pounds is you then engage in a
Speaker 1: set of behaviors whose desired outcome is that at the
Speaker 1: end of it you've lost ten pounds. But now what
Speaker 1: happens you lose those ten pounds, and now what right?
Speaker 1: You aren't in a situation in which you've created a
Speaker 1: sustainable set of behaviors for the long term. So rather
Speaker 1: than focusing yourself on I want to lose ten pounds,
Speaker 1: ask yourself, Okay, is there a way where I can say, Look,
Speaker 1: I'm going to eat in a healthier way. I'm going
Speaker 1: to engage in a set of healthy eating habits, and
Speaker 1: as a side effect of that, I may end up
Speaker 1: losing some weight, But the main idea is I've created
Speaker 1: a set of procedures for living my life that will
Speaker 1: sustain themselves well beyond the particular outcome that I was
Speaker 1: hoping for. Oh I really like that. And you know,
Speaker 1: I've heard from people who eat very healthy that if
Speaker 1: you start eating healthy a lot, you end up really
Speaker 1: enjoying it. You end up eating unhealthy food like you
Speaker 1: actually change your taste talent. Is that true? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, you think about taste and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: it's all there as in part as a matter of prediction, right,
Speaker 1: And so if you change the foods you're eating, then
Speaker 1: your brain is predicting a different set of tastes. It's
Speaker 1: going to appreciate the tastes that are associated with the
Speaker 1: foods that you get on a routine. So, I mean, look,
Speaker 1: we all know things are an acquired taste, and people
Speaker 1: are willing to acquire all kinds of tastes as long
Speaker 1: as they go along with advices, right, I mean, nobody
Speaker 1: likes nobody likes beer the first time that they drink it.
Speaker 1: I don't even like beer even today. Yeah, well there
Speaker 1: are there are lots of people out there who do.
Speaker 1: I actually am not a huge fan of beer, but
Speaker 1: I but but but you know, but but for me,
Speaker 1: it might be you know, whiskey or vodka. But you know,
Speaker 1: nobody over there in moderation. I'm not sitting at bsketball.
Speaker 1: But but you know, nobody, nobody likes that stuff the
Speaker 1: first time that they drink it, and then they persist
Speaker 1: at it, and then over time they they acquire a
Speaker 1: taste for it. Well you know what, that works just
Speaker 1: as well for stuff that's good for you. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you know, so it's it's if you're willing to acquire
Speaker 1: a taste for your vices, then you got to be
Speaker 1: you got to be just as willing to acquire the
Speaker 1: taste for the virtues. What are what are smart goals?
Speaker 1: You say it's important to create smart goals. What it
Speaker 1: was a smart goal? Yeah, so, so the smart goals
Speaker 1: they got to be positive, they got to be focused
Speaker 1: on processes. And then the third thing about about your
Speaker 1: really smart goals is that they have to be things
Speaker 1: that can actually make it onto your calendar, right. You
Speaker 1: know a lot of times we set goals that are
Speaker 1: way to abstract, Like, you know, I took up the saxophone, right,
Speaker 1: and I was I was in my mid thirties. And
Speaker 1: if I just said I want to learn to play
Speaker 1: the saxophone, then to this day I wouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to play the sacks, because what does that mean. I
Speaker 1: want to learn to play the saxophone means I don't
Speaker 1: know how to play it now and sometimes in the
Speaker 1: future I will know how to play it. So you
Speaker 1: have to actually turn that into a set of actions
Speaker 1: you can perform. You know, I'm going to practice every
Speaker 1: day for a half hour after dinner. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: going to take lessons on Thursday mornings at eight o'clock.
Speaker 1: You know, things that you can that that that actually
Speaker 1: could appear on your calendar at some point. And unless
Speaker 1: you get down to that level of specificity, then end
Speaker 1: up really being able to succeed, partly because you're not
Speaker 1: creating actions that you can actually perform, and partly because
Speaker 1: until you get down to that level of specificity, you
Speaker 1: don't really bump into all of the key obstacles that
Speaker 1: are holding you back. Because life is a series of
Speaker 1: trade offs there. There's time and resources and enjoyment factors
Speaker 1: that come into play in your behavior. And until you
Speaker 1: start thinking up close and personal to the specific aspects
Speaker 1: of your day, it's really hard to see all those
Speaker 1: things that are getting in your way. So so another
Speaker 1: aspect of these smart goals is you have to get
Speaker 1: down to that level of specificity that you can really
Speaker 1: put this stuff on your calendar. Oh that's that's a
Speaker 1: really good point. Yeah, so you do, right. So it's
Speaker 1: better to frame goals pausively rather than negatively. You also
Speaker 1: argue it's important to be flexible with your goal, Like
Speaker 1: if you're trying to lose one hundred pounds in two weeks,
Speaker 1: you'll realize that it's not possible. Yeah, little, little, little
Speaker 1: realism is a good thing. My goal when I took
Speaker 1: up the sacks was that I that in ten years
Speaker 1: I wouldn't suck. Oh that's that's great. That was my goals.
Speaker 1: And about ten years after I started, I started playing
Speaker 1: in a blues band. Oh that's so well. Can you
Speaker 1: send me a link of you playing and I'll put
Speaker 1: into the show notes. Uh, I'll see if I'll see
Speaker 1: if I can find if I can find a there
Speaker 1: must somebody must have put something up on YouTube. I
Speaker 1: think they have, and if not, I did a I
Speaker 1: did a recorded lecture for Creative Live over the summer
Speaker 1: and I played I played the sacks on that and
Speaker 1: they and they I think they have that freely available
Speaker 1: on their side. Oh yeah, great, And do we have
Speaker 1: a way of you playing day one so we can
Speaker 1: do it before and after thing? No? But you know
Speaker 1: the story is the first day that I was playing,
Speaker 1: I was so excited I got this saxophone. I had
Speaker 1: a lesson. My teacher taught me how to get a
Speaker 1: sound out of it. And I came home and I
Speaker 1: played and played and played at home. And the next morning,
Speaker 1: my son, who was like seven years old at the time,
Speaker 1: comes out of his bedroom and he says, were you
Speaker 1: playing your new saxophone last night, Daddy? And I was
Speaker 1: so proud. I was like, yes, I was. He said,
Speaker 1: I thought, so it sounded like you were moving chairs
Speaker 1: in the kitchen. Did you laugh at that? You know?
Speaker 1: I did, but but not probably not as heartily as
Speaker 1: he would have liked. Yeah, exactly, Well, what can you now?
Speaker 1: That's right? So you what was something I'll say like
Speaker 1: about your book is you talk about importance of imagination
Speaker 1: and visualization. Could you elaborate on that a little bit
Speaker 1: about why is imagination and visualization important for reaching your goals? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, if you think about it, you in order
Speaker 1: to achieve these goals, chances are you're going to have
Speaker 1: to do some number of things you've never done before, right,
Speaker 1: which which means that you have to really begin to
Speaker 1: think about how in the world am I going to
Speaker 1: make this happen in my life? What are the actions
Speaker 1: I need to take, What are the things that are
Speaker 1: going to get in my way? You know, one of
Speaker 1: the things I about is that my least favorite book
Speaker 1: published in the last twenty years is Secret. You know,
Speaker 1: this idea that all you need to do is to
Speaker 1: think really positively about things. You don't like The Secret.
Speaker 1: I don't like The Secret. You know this idea that
Speaker 1: that positive that that that that that positive thinking is
Speaker 1: all you need to get to your goals. You know,
Speaker 1: and as most scientists love The Secret. So I'm surprised. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I know that shock a shock, but I
Speaker 1: I think it's done. I think the book's done a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of damage because it's it's really forced. It's
Speaker 1: it's moved people away from really considering all the obstacles
Speaker 1: that get in your way when you're going to try
Speaker 1: to achieve a goal. And I I tell people that
Speaker 1: that that they should really make use of that finely
Speaker 1: honed skill that all of us have to talk ourselves
Speaker 1: out of doing things, and to use that skill to
Speaker 1: identify the problems that are going to come up. But
Speaker 1: then rather than allowing those to demoralize you then use
Speaker 1: those to plan for what's going to go wrong in
Speaker 1: the future and to really be ready for it, because
Speaker 1: in the moment, it's it's really hard to figure out
Speaker 1: what is the right way from an obstacle in the
Speaker 1: moment it happens. So the idea is that that you
Speaker 1: want to be ready for the problems are going to
Speaker 1: come up. So think about this, right you, You know,
Speaker 1: you go to a party, somebody insults you, and and
Speaker 1: and later you come up with the great comment that
Speaker 1: you should have said to them. It happens to be
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, I'm e sure the one insulting
Speaker 1: the people. Now, So wouldn't it be great if if
Speaker 1: you could get the insult in advance, right, so that
Speaker 1: you know, you were all prepared with the comment and
Speaker 1: then and then you could make it right in the moment.
Speaker 1: And so that's that's the same value of preparing for
Speaker 1: the obstacles is in the moment, it's really hard to
Speaker 1: know what to do. But if I'm prepared in advance,
Speaker 1: then when those obstacles come up, I know exactly what
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to do and what what you know how
Speaker 1: to how to overcome them. That's great. I mean, are
Speaker 1: sometimes I I don't I kind of speak my mind
Speaker 1: whatever whatever enters my mind, and sometimes I accidentally insult
Speaker 1: people and then much so much later I find out
Speaker 1: or I think about it, think it through and was like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, I probably shouldn't have said that. So does
Speaker 1: it work both ways? Well, you know it does in
Speaker 1: a sense, right. I Mean one of the things that
Speaker 1: that that we often learn is is you know, things
Speaker 1: that didn't go well and so you know and so
Speaker 1: and so now you you begin to recognize that when
Speaker 1: you're when you're traveling into dangerous waters, you know the
Speaker 1: you know, socially, we call them social skills because they
Speaker 1: well we call them social skills because they have to
Speaker 1: be learned. Yeah, that's that's that's that's a very good point.
Speaker 1: I will work on my social skills. Yeah, I've never
Speaker 1: had a problem with you. No, No, I I just uh,
Speaker 1: social skills sometimes requires just inhibiting your prefontal cortex a
Speaker 1: little bit. Uh. Yeah, well no, I'm actually engaging the
Speaker 1: prefrontal that's problem done it, I do there was a
Speaker 1: problem there. I mean sometimes it requires engaging the pre
Speaker 1: fonted cortex. That's right. Behavior and behavior. Uh, some of
Speaker 1: what you're talking about sounds consistent with rational mode of
Speaker 1: behavioral therapy. You know. Are you familiar with that? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know bridelis. Yeah, look, I think, uh, I
Speaker 1: think a lot of it, A lot of it is
Speaker 1: very consistent with that. You know. It's I mean, you
Speaker 1: you know a lot of a lot of what what
Speaker 1: cognitive cognitavior therapies are trying to do is to help
Speaker 1: people to develop a more effective set of habits and
Speaker 1: and what you know what one of the important insights
Speaker 1: that comes out of a lot of that work is
Speaker 1: the recognition that some of those habits aren't aren't overt actions,
Speaker 1: they're just thought patterns. That's right. We create, we create
Speaker 1: habitual modes of thought. You know this whole concept for example,
Speaker 1: of rumination, which is just a word I love, right
Speaker 1: because it comes from the word for chewing your cut. Right.
Speaker 1: But this whole idea that you can get into these
Speaker 1: thought patterns where you just think over and over about
Speaker 1: the mistakes you've made and and the things that you're
Speaker 1: anxious about that can then end up derailing your your
Speaker 1: ability to move forward in a positive way. I mean,
Speaker 1: those are also habits, and you can't stop doing those again.
Speaker 1: You don't want to set a negative goal. You want
Speaker 1: to find something that interferes with that. You want to
Speaker 1: find a new thought pattern that will that you will
Speaker 1: gauge in those situations instead of the thing you don't
Speaker 1: want to do. Yeah, we were talking earlier about you
Speaker 1: were helping me with my picking my nails and you
Speaker 1: suggest I start a smart change journal. Yeah. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you're you're a big fan of of data collection. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Tim Ferriss once said that that which gets measured gets managed.
Speaker 1: You would agree with that. Yeah. Absolutely. I think it's
Speaker 1: very hard to change behavior if you have no idea
Speaker 1: what you're doing. And that's that's why most New Year's
Speaker 1: resolutions fail, because people just say, you know what next
Speaker 1: year I'm gonna get in shape without ever thinking about
Speaker 1: why you're not in shape. Now. Yeah, so you need
Speaker 1: a compass, Yeah, you need to. You need to have
Speaker 1: that that compass in the automatic system. Yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and and and so you need to you need to
Speaker 1: know what you're doing. You need to create you know,
Speaker 1: those good goals. You need to have those, you know,
Speaker 1: the plans in place with with those specific actions. You
Speaker 1: want to be prepared aired for the obstacles when they
Speaker 1: come in. And then one thing we haven't talked about
Speaker 1: that's really important, right is you also want to manage
Speaker 1: that environment a little bit. You know. I always say
Speaker 1: that one of the key principles that changing your behavior
Speaker 1: is just making really desirable behaviors easy and undesirable behavior
Speaker 1: is hard. So I really should buy an entire gym
Speaker 1: and put it in my room, my office if you could,
Speaker 1: that would certainly work. But you know, there are smaller
Speaker 1: things you can do, like, you know, when I lost weight,
Speaker 1: one of my one of my my biggest nemesis was
Speaker 1: the single serving cart and the Ben and Jerry's ice cream.
Speaker 1: You know, those are like a pink, you know, and
Speaker 1: you take them out of the freezer with a spoon
Speaker 1: and you sit down and you eat it, and you
Speaker 1: get down to about halfway, and then you take one
Speaker 1: more spoonful past halfway and then it's just impolite. I'm
Speaker 1: going to need some right now. Yeah, right, yeah, now
Speaker 1: that you've activated that schema, thanks So I when I
Speaker 1: lost weight, I made a remarkable discovery and I'm going
Speaker 1: to share it with you for free. Thanks our cool discovery.
Speaker 1: You can't eat an ice cream that isn't in your freezer.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, yeah, you got You got to play
Speaker 1: with your environment. You gotta. You got to make sure
Speaker 1: that you make you make the most you know, you
Speaker 1: want to make. Really undesirable behavior is hard to do.
Speaker 1: So so you know, there you are too at eleven
Speaker 1: o'clock at night. You are not going to run out
Speaker 1: and grab a uh go go down to the store
Speaker 1: to get ice cream. You know, if you'll you'll find
Speaker 1: something else to do. Yeah, this is this is such
Speaker 1: important practical advice. Yeah, what are you know, what are
Speaker 1: some of the things that people want to do other
Speaker 1: than than stop not stop losing weight, losing weight and
Speaker 1: stop picking their nails. Well, there's there's lots of different
Speaker 1: kinds of things that people you know may want to
Speaker 1: do right, so, uh, you know, the range of goals
Speaker 1: is probably limitless. I think one of the other big
Speaker 1: ones these days is to check is to stop check
Speaker 1: an email, and and smartphones on the yes, that's a
Speaker 1: that's another really big one. But let's let's do an example, though,
Speaker 1: of of of how to list these signs. So you
Speaker 1: say you define objectively so you don't wiggle out, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: make it easily measurable, and keep signs for small achievements
Speaker 1: as well as long term contribution. Maybe we can pick
Speaker 1: something and give an example of how we could of
Speaker 1: what the form those three things take for that. Okay, so,
Speaker 1: so which three things do you want? I just want
Speaker 1: to make sure I got this right here. I thought
Speaker 1: we'd go through all three. So let's start with defining
Speaker 1: something objectively. So who don't wiggle out? Yeah? Yeah, So
Speaker 1: so let's let's think about check an email. Okay. So,
Speaker 1: so a lot of people that check their email way
Speaker 1: too often. And and if I just say, look, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna check my email less often, that's that's not specific enough, right,
Speaker 1: How do I you know, how am I going to
Speaker 1: really say I checked it less often? So what you
Speaker 1: really want to do is to say to yourself, Okay, look,
Speaker 1: I'm going to institute a new behavior. I'm really productive
Speaker 1: first thing in the morning, So I'm not going to
Speaker 1: check my email for the first time until until after
Speaker 1: ten o'clock in the morning, so that all of the
Speaker 1: work time that I have before ten am is going
Speaker 1: to be spent on things other than email. Well, now
Speaker 1: I've defined something specifically enough that there's no there's no
Speaker 1: way to wiggle out of that, because if I check
Speaker 1: my email before ten I've blown it. Okay, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: So that's one thing that we want to do. You know. Now,
Speaker 1: Now imagine that you're trying to check your email and
Speaker 1: service or stop checking your email so often in service
Speaker 1: of doing something like making progress on a book. Right,
Speaker 1: So now you know one of the things you want
Speaker 1: to do is actually to keep track of the pages
Speaker 1: that you've written, to have some specific set of information
Speaker 1: in the world that will tell you, yes, I am
Speaker 1: making progress on this. You know. Now, with something like
Speaker 1: a book, there is an object at the end of
Speaker 1: this that is there there are words on a page,
Speaker 1: at least on a virtual page in a computer, so
Speaker 1: you have something to show for it. Unfortunately, for some
Speaker 1: number of the goals that people create for themselves, there
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily there don't necessarily have to be products for those.
Speaker 1: You know, when somebody says I want to get in shape,
Speaker 1: well you know what exactly is the is the product
Speaker 1: of that going to be? And so you want to
Speaker 1: give yourself something a little bit more measurable than that, Like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, right now I can only run a quarter
Speaker 1: of a mile. I would like to keep track of
Speaker 1: how far I can run or how long I can
Speaker 1: walk and use that as a measure of the progress
Speaker 1: that I'm making. Your work is so system with Gabrielle
Speaker 1: Engine's work on implementation intentions. Absolutely. In fact, if you
Speaker 1: flip all the way to the end of I know,
Speaker 1: I set you up. You know her work and Peter
Speaker 1: and Peter Gold which just work. I love that stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love Gabrielle's new book. Oh you're gonna buy only
Speaker 1: one book this year, buy smart Change. But if you're
Speaker 1: gonna buy two books this year, well last year, if
Speaker 1: you were going to buy two books last year. If
Speaker 1: you're gonna buy one book this year, buy my book
Speaker 1: on creativity. Fair enough. But I'm gonna buy three books
Speaker 1: this year, I'm saying, I'm saying, make sure you buy
Speaker 1: arts book and Gabrielle's book last year, right, but I'm
Speaker 1: saying I'm saying this year, buy my book. Okay, fair enough,
Speaker 1: are used to buy my book? So what were you
Speaker 1: going to say about if you flip all the way
Speaker 1: to something? Uh? With gabriell Engine's thing, we're gonna say,
Speaker 1: if you flip all the way to the end is
Speaker 1: smart change where the references are, you'll actually Gabrielle's stuff
Speaker 1: and uh and Peter and Peter Bolwitzer's were excited prominently absolutely,
Speaker 1: So let's let's go. Let's talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: the importance of influencing other people. Yeah, okay, why does
Speaker 1: that matter? Why is that? Well, I mean, most of us,
Speaker 1: every once in a while find ourselves in the position
Speaker 1: of having not just to do things ourselves, but trying
Speaker 1: to influence what other people do. Some people are in
Speaker 1: the business of doing that all the time. Some people
Speaker 1: are just in that situation every once in a while.
Speaker 1: If if you really think about what influence is all about,
Speaker 1: influence is actually about affecting people's behavior, which means that
Speaker 1: all of the principles of smart change are are not
Speaker 1: only principles you can use to change your own behavior,
Speaker 1: but they are principles that you can engage to help
Speaker 1: other people to change their baby. That there's a pro
Speaker 1: social element to this and so and so, you know,
Speaker 1: and I think this is important because a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are engaged in real pro social kinds of behaviors,
Speaker 1: they're often looking for the right message, you know, they
Speaker 1: if I hear this all the time, what could we
Speaker 1: tell people in order to get them to save energy,
Speaker 1: or to treat people better, or to stop racism or
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And I think what's important to remember
Speaker 1: is it's not about the message, because ask yourself, when
Speaker 1: was the last time that anyone said something to you?
Speaker 1: And just saying that fundamentally changed your behavior. Right, generally speaking,
Speaker 1: it requires more than just telling you something, giving you
Speaker 1: a piece of information. It requires all of those other
Speaker 1: elements of behavior change. And the example I love to
Speaker 1: use for this is, you know, if you take if
Speaker 1: you take our Judeo Christian heritage and you look at
Speaker 1: our top ten list, which is the commandments. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: ten commandments are all about behavior change. Excise A couple
Speaker 1: of them that say follow this religion rather than that one.
Speaker 1: All the rest of them are about do the thing
Speaker 1: that's right in the long term rather than the thing
Speaker 1: that's right in the short term. Yes, right, that beautiful
Speaker 1: thing somebody owns, don't steal it. That person who just
Speaker 1: annoys you, don't kill him, that really attractive spouse to
Speaker 1: the person living next door, leave him or her alone. Now, remember,
Speaker 1: according to the Bible, the ten commandments were handed down
Speaker 1: by the deity. Right, God gave the ten commandments, and
Speaker 1: they are an utter failure because despite that, everyone still
Speaker 1: does these things. Speak for yourself, art Mark Man, Well, okay,
Speaker 1: people do these things. So what does this mean. It
Speaker 1: means if God can't tell you don't do this, yes
Speaker 1: and write and have it work. What makes you think
Speaker 1: that you can come along and say to somebody, here's
Speaker 1: what you should do or not do, and that's going
Speaker 1: to have any impact. Right, that's a good point. There
Speaker 1: you go. So it's not about telling people. It's not
Speaker 1: about having the right message. It's about, you know, giving
Speaker 1: people the right kinds of goals, helping them to create
Speaker 1: plans that will fit those goals into their lives, being
Speaker 1: aware of the obstacles, the temptations, managing that environment and
Speaker 1: being an example as well, right. I mean, the other
Speaker 1: that's really important is that you know, you know, our
Speaker 1: goals are contagious, right. You see somebody doing something makes
Speaker 1: you want to do the same thing, and so you know,
Speaker 1: being that example of the kind of behavior you want
Speaker 1: to see in other people is an incredibly powerful way
Speaker 1: of affecting other people do And you also mentioned the
Speaker 1: parts of taking advantage of the laziness, yeah, of other people,
Speaker 1: of reducing the path of least resistance for them. That's right,
Speaker 1: that's right. I tell companies all the time. Companies say
Speaker 1: to me, what can we do to improve illness of
Speaker 1: our employees? I'll say, one of the things you should
Speaker 1: do is to get the building manager to slow the
Speaker 1: elevator down right, so that you know, if the elevator
Speaker 1: is just a little bit slower so it's kind of
Speaker 1: a pain to wait for it, Yeah, then people will
Speaker 1: walk a floor too. Oh that's great, Yeah, so I
Speaker 1: want to I mean that transitions nicely into really the
Speaker 1: last question I have for you today, and what do
Speaker 1: you think is the biggest impediment to the every day
Speaker 1: to everyone to decide who wants to make a change
Speaker 1: in their life? You know, I think I think the
Speaker 1: biggest impediment most people have is that they just don't
Speaker 1: know the way that the motivational system works, and so
Speaker 1: they end up engaging in lots of behaviors that probably
Speaker 1: won't work to begin with, and then they get frustrated
Speaker 1: that they failed at changing their behavior and they just
Speaker 1: give up. You know. I mean, how many people do
Speaker 1: you know who decided not to make New Year's Residents
Speaker 1: this year because they've failed so often in the past.
Speaker 1: Why bother? Oh, I just don't know anyone like that.
Speaker 1: I can't think of anyone. Well, I know a couple,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's so so I think that that,
Speaker 1: you know, people get, people get frustrated, they get they
Speaker 1: get demoralized by uh by their failures in the past,
Speaker 1: and those failures are not their fault because they were walking,
Speaker 1: they were working across purposes to their own brains. So
Speaker 1: so I really feel like if you, if you learn
Speaker 1: a little bit about the way behavior works, you put
Speaker 1: yourself in a situation in which you can be much
Speaker 1: more effective at changing your behavior in the long term
Speaker 1: and and and then actually succeed. I want to put
Speaker 1: everybody in a position where next year they get to
Speaker 1: make a different New Year's resolution because they've actually achieved
Speaker 1: this one. Thanks Sara, you really inspired me to it's
Speaker 1: not too late right in the New Year, to never
Speaker 1: too late to stop pick my nails and lose a
Speaker 1: couple of pounds. Thank you so much, Art, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure you inspired lots of our listeners. Thank you, Sarah,
Speaker 1: it's great great to talk to you. Thanks for listening
Speaker 1: to The Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I
Speaker 1: hope you found this episode just as performative and foperak
Speaker 1: if I did. If you don't read the show notes
Speaker 1: for this episode or her past episodes, if you go
Speaker 1: to the Psychology Podcast dot com,