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Speaker 1: out to stitcher dot com today and subscribe its great word. Well,

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Speaker 1: hey there, and welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways.

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Speaker 1: I am Steve as usual, joined by Devin and Joe

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Speaker 1: and as per usual, what I don't know, God of

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Speaker 1: hate saying what? Okay? Whose fault is it? I picked

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Speaker 1: up the word used? Is it you? It should be

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Speaker 1: as always as per usual because usual is not a

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Speaker 1: word that you can abbreviate or shorten, is not, is not,

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Speaker 1: is not, is not? As usual, we have another mystery

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Speaker 1: for you this week, and it is a historical mystery.

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Speaker 1: So it's a you know, we're getting of the murder train. No,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get back on war. Well and there well,

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Speaker 1: there is a lot of murder in the story. So

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Speaker 1: this week we are going to talk about the historical mystery,

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Speaker 1: which is did anyone who was with Lieutenant Colonel George

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Speaker 1: Armstrong Custer survived when he took the five companies of

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Speaker 1: the seventh Cavalry that we're under his command at that

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Speaker 1: time into the Indian territory near the Little Big Horn

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Speaker 1: River in Montana on June eighteen seventy six. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: actually a lot of people survived the Little Big Horn. Well,

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Speaker 1: the people that were with Custer specifically did those didn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll get into that. So the title of this is

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Speaker 1: going to be like an entire paragraph along. No, it'll

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Speaker 1: be very simple when I when I title it on

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Speaker 1: the episode thing, So everyone who was with Lieutenant Colonel

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Speaker 1: let's get into Sorry, Actually, before we get into the story,

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Speaker 1: I do need to thank our listener Jonathan, who suggested

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Speaker 1: this to us, I think like two years ago or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Mystery, So thank you Jonathan. And let's

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Speaker 1: pick up with the story. As people probably know, uh commonly,

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Speaker 1: the event we're going to talk about is known as

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Speaker 1: Custer's Last Stand. I mean, I would say yeah in America, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in America, but they're about all over the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world that I have only heard of Custer and

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Speaker 1: not really know a lot of I think we're saying

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Speaker 1: Custard wrong. And you know it's Custer, George Custer. That's

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Okay, I'm glad we clarified that. Maybe

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Speaker 1: look like an idiot. Yeah, all right, here's this story.

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Speaker 1: Is that General Custer, he and all of his men

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Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy six July, specifically, they went into Indian territory.

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Speaker 1: And we'll get into the backstory of this, but they

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Speaker 1: were killed by the Indians, that the American Indians. And

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Speaker 1: we've had this conversation before. If you read it on

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Speaker 1: the internet, some American Indians say it's American Indian and

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Speaker 1: some say, just called me Indian. I don't care, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to use it interchangeably. Devin's giving me a

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Speaker 1: dirty look for that. Why, I'm just thinking, I think

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Speaker 1: it should be Native American. But well, but that's The

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Speaker 1: thing is that they I've seen all over there. It's

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Speaker 1: it's there's no consensus. Some people like I want to

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Speaker 1: be Native America, some people like I'm an Indian. I mean,

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Speaker 1: so I don't want to abscribe to prescribe the one

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Speaker 1: because opion. Yeah, it's not like it's a racial slur

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. And it's uh okay. I mean, essentially,

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Speaker 1: Columbus went looking for India and Indians and he found some.

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Speaker 1: So here you go. Okay, So let's let's start this

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Speaker 1: portion of the episode over so that this doesn't make

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Speaker 1: no sense to anybody as people as we've kind of

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Speaker 1: defined I said. So far, people at least in the America,

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Speaker 1: in North America will know. This is referred to as

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Speaker 1: Custer's Last Stand. And what happened is that Custer and

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Speaker 1: all of his men were defeated and killed by the

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Speaker 1: Lakota suit, the Dakota suit, the Cheyenne, and the Arapaho

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Speaker 1: tribes that were amped by the river that this is

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Speaker 1: the Little Big Horn River on June seventy six. Now,

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Speaker 1: Custer himself commanded approximately two hundred men when he went

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Speaker 1: into battle, and officially none of those two hundred survived

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Speaker 1: but since almost immediately after Custer and his men were

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Speaker 1: resoundingly defeated and killed, people have come forward and said

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Speaker 1: they were there, and they made it in some way,

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Speaker 1: they made it out a lot. It's kind of like

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like the people who said they knew DV.

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Speaker 1: Cooper but unfortunately just died six months ago, but hey

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Speaker 1: about it, And so there's tons of There's like a

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty people over the years have come forward

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Speaker 1: and said they were there. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: these people. And one of those people specifically, which is

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Speaker 1: the focus of today's episode, is a man named Frank Finkel,

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Speaker 1: who in nineteen twenty announced that he had been part

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Speaker 1: of the group that went into that territory with Custer specifically,

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Speaker 1: and he managed to make it out alive. So that's

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Speaker 1: our mysteries. Is Frank Finkel telling the truth? And was

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Speaker 1: he of among those two hundred men? So two find

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Speaker 1: Frank Finkel? It is it? No, No, that that doesn't work,

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Speaker 1: because is it Finkel's thinking no, no, no, Did Finkel

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Speaker 1: fink on himself in a sense, yeah, because thinking okay,

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Speaker 1: because it could because it could be construed as desertion. Basically,

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Speaker 1: the enemy, So according to his story, he didn't actually

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Speaker 1: deserts of kind did well. But we'll get into it.

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Speaker 1: We'll get the repercussions of that, and the positives and

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Speaker 1: negatives and all of that. So listen, this is a

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Speaker 1: historical mystery. So there's a bunch of history that I

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Speaker 1: have to try and lay out for everybody. Lets well,

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Speaker 1: but that's the difficulties. There's so much here. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to do my best to keep this as condensed as possible,

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Speaker 1: but that means, of course that I'm going to have

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Speaker 1: to omit and simplify some information. So if you are

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Speaker 1: an aficionado of the Battle of the Little Big Horn,

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Speaker 1: please understand that's that's what's going on here. Yeah, because listen,

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Speaker 1: we did the whole football thing, and football nerds are

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Speaker 1: nowhere near as mean as history nerds, so this could

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Speaker 1: get really dirty. But just understand. We know that we're

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Speaker 1: we're trimming it down because that's not the main point

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Speaker 1: of the story, right, Okay, So here's where we go,

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Speaker 1: before the Battle a Little Big Horn. Of course, when

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Speaker 1: Europeans came to North America, they immediately began pushing around

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Speaker 1: the native people, the indigenous people immediately and just eventually

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Speaker 1: pretty damn quick. But they started pushing them around for

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Speaker 1: things that they want, and that ended up meaning that

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Speaker 1: they pushed them off of their ancestral homes and through

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Speaker 1: the reservation system, they began relocating them to other places

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Speaker 1: that they were not previously living upon. But that again,

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Speaker 1: it didn't happen that centuries before that actually had and

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Speaker 1: I and yeah, this is this is this is simplifying

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Speaker 1: as much as possible because we're not going to get

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Speaker 1: into the ethics of why that happened in through the

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Speaker 1: history before. Probably was a bad thing, not the best

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Speaker 1: thing to do. So we move forward. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you want to get in sense, like I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you two had a chance to do this,

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Speaker 1: but just reading on things like the Trail of Tears,

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Speaker 1: which is very famous, and if you do reading on that,

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Speaker 1: you get a real sense of what it was like

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Speaker 1: for the Native Americans to go through that so really bad,

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Speaker 1: really bad. Okay, So then what we do is as

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Speaker 1: we move forward through time, there becomes notable names and

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Speaker 1: names that you may have heard before, such as Sitting

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Speaker 1: Bowl and Crazy Horse are some of the famous ones.

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Speaker 1: And at least Sitting Bowl will play a major role

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Speaker 1: in our stories. Crazy Horse was there apparently as well.

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Speaker 1: But these guys were both leaders of the Sioux, and

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Speaker 1: the Sioux lived in the Great Plains. If people don't

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Speaker 1: know what Greek Plains is, it's essentially the center of

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Speaker 1: view of the North America north to south. It's it's

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Speaker 1: really kind of a giant flat spots. Great that the

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Speaker 1: Great Plans, It's the flyover States, all of them. So

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Speaker 1: these guys in the roughly the main the mid eighteen hundreds, Uh,

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Speaker 1: they began speaking out against the US government, and the government,

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Speaker 1: of course is at this point, as I said before,

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Speaker 1: they're pushing people around them, pushing them out. The other

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Speaker 1: thing they're doing is they're breaking treaties, and that's going

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Speaker 1: to play into this story very strongly. That's where the

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Speaker 1: term Indian giver comes from. Yes, you give and then

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Speaker 1: you take it back. You have to change your mind

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Speaker 1: to take it back. Which actually, I'm pretty sure that

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Speaker 1: that's a derogatory term. What's so weird about that derogatory

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Speaker 1: term is that it's it's based on white people, but

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Speaker 1: it makes a negative connotation. Well no, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: not like since I was a kid, it was understood

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Speaker 1: as not something derogatory towards the Indians. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: mean some people today misconstruing the history of that phrase.

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Speaker 1: I've claimed it's a slur against the Indians. It never

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Speaker 1: has badness. But that's that's my point though, is that

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Speaker 1: for people who don't know the history, something that's nature

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Speaker 1: is and it's not, but it is, it's actually a

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Speaker 1: negative thing towards us white folks, or at least American.

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Speaker 1: So here's what happens, though, is that the Native Americans

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Speaker 1: are pushed into a reservation. This is in South Dakota.

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Speaker 1: And then in eighteen seventy five, gold is found in

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Speaker 1: the Black Hills of South Dakota, and the Indians had

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Speaker 1: no use for us. So hey, government going, what the hell?

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Speaker 1: Like these Indians are not harvesting it, they're just living

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Speaker 1: on that ground, just respecting the earth or whatever as well.

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Speaker 1: Push them off, find him a new home. And that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what happens. Is they say, wait, no, we're going

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Speaker 1: to move you now because we're gonna change the deal

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Speaker 1: again and we're gonna move you somewhere else. And the

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Speaker 1: I think the plan was they were moving them and

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Speaker 1: please don't I don't remember the exact location, because this

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Speaker 1: is such a muddy history, but pretty sure that was

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Speaker 1: where they were then moving them to what is the

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Speaker 1: modern day Crow Reservation in Montana. I thought that the

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Speaker 1: Crows were supposed to keep their reservations and that they

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Speaker 1: were they were going to actually give them some more land.

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Speaker 1: They weren't going to move them on to the Crow reservation.

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Speaker 1: But what touched off this particular confrontation is that many

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Speaker 1: of the other tribes were encroaching on the Crow land see,

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Speaker 1: and that's that's a particular battle. It took place on

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Speaker 1: the Crow reservation. And but those other tribes were not

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Speaker 1: actually supposed to be there, but did not want them there.

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Speaker 1: This is the difficulty with this whole thing. Is there

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Speaker 1: so much back and forth, well, and it's it's tough

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Speaker 1: to keep track of the tribes. And the other thing

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Speaker 1: to remember too about the about the tribes is that

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Speaker 1: you know, there were a lot of them hated each

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Speaker 1: other and uh, and so that's one of the what's

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that in the end they wind up,

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Speaker 1: you know, losing everything because they if they had actually

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Speaker 1: banded together, you know, that they might have stood more

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Speaker 1: of a chance. But that was what some of the

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Speaker 1: great leaders of the nations were trying to do together.

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Speaker 1: But some of these tribes had hatreds going back a

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Speaker 1: long long way, just you know, big family feuds basically.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's not unusual. I mean, it's what

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Speaker 1: people do everywhere. I mean there's people who have similar

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Speaker 1: hatreds back in Europe and other places too. It's not unusual,

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Speaker 1: but not at all. So so okay, so they they're

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Speaker 1: going to get moved. The idea is that these people

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Speaker 1: in South Dakota is at least as I understand it,

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Speaker 1: the plan is to push them up into Montana, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the tribes would resist that. Not all

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Speaker 1: of them, but a lot of tribes would. So some

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Speaker 1: would go, and some would say no, and they would

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Speaker 1: run away, and they would disappear into this untamed land

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Speaker 1: because you know, it's not as if it's the metropolitan area,

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Speaker 1: so they can just take off. And then later on

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Speaker 1: tribes would then say, you know, we really don't like

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Speaker 1: what you're doing to us, and so we're gonna leave

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Speaker 1: the reservations, which is sitting bowl. He he led a

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Speaker 1: huge contingent off of the reservation in protest. So this

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Speaker 1: is how this is kind of the turmoil or the

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Speaker 1: back the back setting of what's going on at the

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Speaker 1: time in the area. Yeah. So yeah, thanks, were tense

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Speaker 1: between a lot of these tribes in the US Army. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they were, Yeah, there it was. I would say

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Speaker 1: it was tense between everything. Tense might be like an understatements.

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Speaker 1: The Rows were on our side. They actually helped out.

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Speaker 1: They actually tried to help Custer bit but not too

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Speaker 1: not too much. But they are actually with the Custer

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Speaker 1: and the Gang, but didn't work out that well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and let's that's a that's a great segue there, Joe.

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Speaker 1: Let's move to Custer in the Gang, which by the way,

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Speaker 1: to be a great band name. So if we go

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Speaker 1: for we move away from the Native peoples and we

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Speaker 1: moved to the US Army or the military. Between March

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Speaker 1: and May of eighteen seventies six, several infantry and Cavalry

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Speaker 1: Divisior companies were sent and these were all from different locations.

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Speaker 1: They were sent to patrol along the Yellowstone River heading

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Speaker 1: towards Montana, and they were supposed to look for hostile natives,

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Speaker 1: particularly sue the ones that were off the reservation, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they were they were supposed to look for him

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Speaker 1: and Custer himself. Now, Custer would be part of a

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Speaker 1: series of larger contingents of military groups. But Custer had

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Speaker 1: about six hundred men underneath him in the seventh Cavalry.

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Speaker 1: And like I said, I mean those other groups where there.

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Speaker 1: So there's other infantry and cavalry, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of different generals whose names I could list off and

250
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Speaker 1: you might or might not know them. There's a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of other companies within each unit, which is hard

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Speaker 1: to keep straight because they use alpha. It's not alpha,

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Speaker 1: it's it's alpha characters to keep to order themselves. Yeah,

254
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Speaker 1: and so you could have Company E seven times between

255
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Speaker 1: all of these. It gets confusing, and it's actually not

256
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Speaker 1: so important. It's not so it's a large group. And

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Speaker 1: we we're talking fifteen hundred military U s military on

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Speaker 1: ballparking this but not there that day. No, No, this

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Speaker 1: is between all of the divisions that we're all moving

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Speaker 1: along the Yellowstone River at. Yeah. But yeah, the ones

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Speaker 1: that were at the Little Big Horn was like more

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Speaker 1: like six with Custard it would have been six. Um, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so eight days prior to the Battle of a Little

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Speaker 1: Big Horn another incident took place, and that was the

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Speaker 1: Battle of the Rosebud. And this was on the Rosebud

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Speaker 1: Creek as I understand it, uh, And the Rosebud was

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Speaker 1: a little sligh a very rich guy. Wrong storage, I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say, Rosebud is the cody used for infinite money? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: wrong one there too. This is a little creek which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I looked for Rosebud Creek and I

271
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Speaker 1: can't find it anymore. So I'm pretty sure it's been

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Speaker 1: renamed or it doesn't exist anymore. What may have dried

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Speaker 1: up or filled in, who knows. But what happens is

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Speaker 1: the Battle of Rosebud is that several cavalry and infantry

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Speaker 1: companies encounter a unexpectedly large congregation of Rican Indians and

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Speaker 1: those US forces are pushed back and basically have to retreat. Uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean they were defeated essentially. And then what happens

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Speaker 1: is they encounter days later these divisions that had been

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Speaker 1: sent up the Yellowstone River, including Custers seventh, and that

280
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Speaker 1: was a very large group of Indians. Yes, yes, so

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Speaker 1: we'll we might as well give that away now is

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Speaker 1: the initial numbers. Everybody thought that what they were going

283
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Speaker 1: to encounter was going to be somewhere in the low hundreds,

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Speaker 1: maybe the like five hundred ish. What it turned out

285
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Speaker 1: to be was about fifteen hundred to five hundred warriors

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Speaker 1: as I understand it. Okay, So that's a huge scale,

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Speaker 1: a lot, that's all. And when you combine that with

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Speaker 1: the fact that at least a couple of hundred of

289
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Speaker 1: them I believe, we're armed with repeating rifles and the

290
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Speaker 1: cavalry had single shot Springfield trapdoor rifles. Yeah, that's the

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Speaker 1: thing that I It's one of those things in history

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Speaker 1: that you look back and you go, what the hell

293
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Speaker 1: was going on? Because somebody got a good contract and

294
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,879
Speaker 1: the military started getting their guns from them, and so

295
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,639
Speaker 1: all of these repeating weapons were then turned around and

296
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Speaker 1: sold to the American Indians. It's like, wait, why did

297
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Speaker 1: you think single shot was so much better than a

298
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Speaker 1: repeating A lot of them some of them, the ones

299
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Speaker 1: that we're getting sold of the Indians, were these lever

300
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Speaker 1: action Henry rifles that were shamering in and things like

301
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Speaker 1: forty four and forty five caliber. They were essentially pistol

302
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Speaker 1: calibers and so not great long range weapons. But and

303
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 1: so the Springfield had a longer. It was in a

304
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,119
Speaker 1: much more gee Hawk cartridge had much better range. But

305
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Speaker 1: at same time, for a closer engagement like this, I

306
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Speaker 1: would much rather have something that actually Henry shot. Yeah,

307
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Speaker 1: that's what I mean. That's it's like. Also, by the way,

308
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Speaker 1: there's another another factor in this battle is that Custer

309
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Speaker 1: actually was moving fast and light and left his supply

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Speaker 1: train behind. They were they were still trying to catch up.

311
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Speaker 1: They had all the ammunition. I shouldn't say, Oh, I

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Speaker 1: mean there's been all had some and we'll get into

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Speaker 1: some of that. Yeah. Yeah, So here's here's what happens is.

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Speaker 1: I know we've jumped ahead a little bit, but the

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Speaker 1: simplified version of this is that Custer and the seventh

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Speaker 1: Cavalry they move up Rosebud Creek and they're looking for

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Speaker 1: this contingent of Native Americans. They find them, but as

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Speaker 1: we've said, Custer is fed wrong information. He's told when

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Speaker 1: he gets there that, oh, that the best. There's eight

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Speaker 1: hundred warriors. Again we're saying, it turns out it's more

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Speaker 1: like and plus they're better armed than you are. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they didn't. Quite. It doesn't appear he knew that, at

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Speaker 1: least from my reading. Yeah, a lot of people have

324
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Speaker 1: criticized Custer's behavior, but I think he did just get

325
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Speaker 1: some bad intel. I think he did the other The

326
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Speaker 1: other problem is that he was then given in his

327
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Speaker 1: he thought, listen, okay, here's what the plan was. Custer

328
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Speaker 1: had separated from all these other groups of of U. S.

329
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Speaker 1: Soldiers because the plan was they were all gonna circle

330
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Speaker 1: around what is now known called the Crow's Nest that's

331
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Speaker 1: where the battle took place, and the ideas they were

332
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Speaker 1: going to hit him from multiple sides on the same day,

333
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Speaker 1: basically just swarm in and surround the enemy and decimate them.

334
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Speaker 1: And he was like, yeah, there's a bunch of them

335
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Speaker 1: and we could probably take him out, but that's no

336
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Speaker 1: big deal. We'll just hang out. Except then he's given information.

337
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Speaker 1: Oh wait, it turns out that there are Indian scouts

338
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Speaker 1: following our trail to where we are, meaning preparing for battles.

339
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Speaker 1: Meaning crap, we're gonna get attacked on both sides. Or

340
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 1: does he just decided he needed to attack before they

341
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 1: got word back that he was there. The problem was,

342
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,919
Speaker 1: and so he'd lose the elemut of surprise. So he

343
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Speaker 1: decided to rush his schedule just a little bit problem

344
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Speaker 1: of course in Heinz site that was it turns out

345
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,360
Speaker 1: what they said was scouts was actually people who were

346
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,880
Speaker 1: leaving the congregation that he was watching, and they were

347
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 1: just happened across the path that they had walked and

348
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 1: they were leaving. So again another instance of Custer getting

349
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Speaker 1: bad information. So I believe that we can just now

350
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Speaker 1: call this the Custer cluster because there's just so much

351
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 1: not what he's doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So let's let's

352
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Speaker 1: just simplify this and short shorten this up as much

353
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Speaker 1: as we can. Is So Custer says, okay, they're they're

354
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Speaker 1: gonna get us. We need to attack, and he takes

355
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Speaker 1: his group of six men and he splits him into

356
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Speaker 1: three units two hundred apiece and they they split off

357
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Speaker 1: in multiple directions, and Custers group goes in. They eventually

358
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Speaker 1: we don't, by the way, know exactly what happened. People

359
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 1: have been arguing over this. Nobody really us know what

360
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 1: happened at that particular battle, and there's a lot of

361
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,920
Speaker 1: conflicting information. It's a great mystery. Yeah. So Custer and

362
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Speaker 1: his men they head through, they head north. They encountered

363
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 1: this much larger enemy contingent than they expect. They're pushed

364
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Speaker 1: farther north, and the enemy would then go ahead and

365
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: surround Custer and that group of two hundred men that

366
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Speaker 1: he brought with him, and they would massacre all of them.

367
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Speaker 1: Every single man would be killed. Custers last, Yeah, and

368
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: that's why it's called Custers last, exactly. So in the

369
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Speaker 1: group this is this is pretty impressive. Is everybody that

370
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 1: died besides Custer? Is we have his two brothers would

371
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: be killed, his nephew would die, his brother in law

372
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: would die. Almost every horse that was involved would be killed.

373
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Speaker 1: All of Custer's dogs would be killed. A hundred nine

374
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Speaker 1: six men would die as well. I can't believe those dogs. Actually,

375
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Speaker 1: it's a little surprising. They killed the horses well, actually,

376
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Speaker 1: I think that. I think a lot of those guys

377
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 1: killed their own horses so they could use them for cover.

378
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: They did, they made barricade. They would try to build

379
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: barricades out of horses. Also, when it's probably would have

380
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: kept the horse there's not a lead flying around, it's

381
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: just easy for the horse get taken out unfortunately. So

382
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you know that that's that's kind of the

383
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 1: way that the whole story goes and people say, well,

384
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Speaker 1: why didn't he get help, because of course Custers sent

385
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: for help, He sent multiple dispatches. But what happens is

386
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: that people that have to go many many miles back,

387
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: and if they go to the yeah, and then there's

388
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: the other groups that they're trying to get information to.

389
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: Those other groups were at least sixty five miles away.

390
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: This is rugged terrain. As Joe said before, he left

391
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 1: his supply chain behind. So that's that's dozens of miles back.

392
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: Like it takes a long time. It's not like today

393
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Speaker 1: where you just hop in your car and zip down

394
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: there in two minutes and zip back. It was Yeah,

395
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: that was a big controversy to that too, because he

396
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: split up, as he said, in the three in the

397
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: three groups, the other two groups said there major just

398
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: Reno and Bentine one off in different directions. They were

399
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: and they and one of the one of the controversies

400
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: surrounding that is why didn't those guys come to his aid?

401
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: And you know, and there are actually a lot of

402
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 1: people accused them of cowardice and of not you know,

403
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 1: and see, I I don't I disagree with that because

404
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: I think they were and they were so far away

405
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: then they had those other guys had their hands full.

406
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: I mean they were under attack too, so yeah, but

407
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people have said that, well, yeah,

408
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: it wasn't like they were tooling down the road. Now

409
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: they had all the gunshots at screaming from over there

410
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: on the hill. They're just like, ah, he's got it exactly,

411
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: So I have I've led you a little straight, dear listener,

412
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Speaker 1: as I like to do. There. Other than Mr Mr

413
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: Finkel or any of the other hundred and twenty people

414
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: who have claimed to be survivors, there is one confirmed

415
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: survivor of this whole thing. That yeah, the horse. Yes,

416
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: Comanche was a horse that was written by one of

417
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: the guys in the group, and the horse was found

418
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: wounded days later and nurse back to health. Comanche would

419
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: live for another fifteen years and he would die at

420
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: the right bold age of twenty nine. That's pretty good,

421
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: that is for a horse, very good. And and by

422
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 1: the way, this horse was given a full military funeral.

423
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: He's one of three horses that have gotten a full

424
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: military funeral. Unfortunately, those sadists did not buried Comanche. Instead

425
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: they stuffed him. And he's yeah, I think it is,

426
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: but he is now in the University of Kansas's National

427
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: History Museum, so I gotta remember that if I'm back

428
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: back there in Kansas. Sometimes, Yeah, well he doesn't care.

429
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 1: And I was gonna say, it's uh to survive something

430
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: like this, it's more than a matter of just playing dead,

431
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: because I mean, they'll usually when what happened after a

432
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 1: battle like the makes and the women would go through

433
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: the battlefield with these big war clubs and just okay,

434
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: everybody head in, you know, So you couldn't just like

435
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: play possum to survive that way. No, there was what

436
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 1: I don't want to say this, and I don't want

437
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 1: to come out derogatory, and I can't remember the exact pronunciation,

438
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 1: but I believe it's where they would you know, they

439
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: were taking scalps. So that was something that happened, as

440
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: far as I understand it, especially in this specifically in

441
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: this instance, so that you can't fake you can't just

442
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: lay the s off. Now that would work. But let's

443
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: let's get back into the main line here. So we've

444
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: we've got the original event and then several days later

445
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: after the battle, which by the way, it was a

446
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: resounding success, and victory for the Native Americans, the U.

447
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: S forces would return to the area and they would

448
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: try to find everybody who had been killed and figure

449
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: out what the hell had happened. Were invented, I'm pretty sure,

450
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: as Joe said, some very horrible things were done to

451
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: the bodies after they were killed, and then they were

452
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: left to sit in the hot summer sun for at

453
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: least a day or two, like three days, but it depends,

454
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: but I mean it really that makes it extremely hard

455
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: to identify a body when all of that has been

456
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: done to it and then it's been roasting for a

457
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: couple of yeah, exactly. So what happens is these guys

458
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: show up, they try to identify anybody that they can.

459
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: They quickly dig graves and they shove the bodies in there,

460
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: and then they get out of there because they presume

461
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: that the forces that have done this are still in

462
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: the area, and they don't want to be found out

463
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: and they don't want to suffer the same fate, so

464
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: they do their job as quickly as they can, and

465
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: then they've they've vemus it's pretty brave of them to

466
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: stick around as long as they did. So that whole thing,

467
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: as we've said before that was June of eighteen seventy six.

468
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: We're now going to jump forward. We're gonna jump forward

469
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: to nineteen twenty, which is forty four years later. We're

470
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: gonna go to Dayton, Washington, which is yeah Pacific Northwest.

471
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: A local and rather successful farmer named Frank Finkel in

472
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: ninety announced that he had in fact been at the

473
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: Battle of a Little Big Horn and he was in

474
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: that group that Custer commanded, and he had actually managed

475
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: to make it out alive. Now, his reasons for bringing

476
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: the story forward at that time, well, it varies from

477
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: source to source. Some say that he was having drinks

478
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,719
Speaker 1: with drinking beer and playing horse shoes, and somebody started

479
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: talking bad about Custer and he came forward to defend him,

480
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: and that's how his story came out. There are another

481
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: version that says that he was at a presentation about

482
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: Custer and the Battle of a Little bit Corn where

483
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: wrong details were presented and he then came forward to

484
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: correct those details. I don't know, we don't know which

485
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: it is, but from there he Frank would then get

486
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of tension, as you would probably expect,

487
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: and he'd be interviewed by newspapers, and he would start

488
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: to share his story at different talks around the area.

489
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: That was in nineteen twenty that he came forward and

490
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: that's it, and just to put it in perspective. And

491
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: there were still a lot of people alive in nineteen

492
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: twenty who remembered the battle. They were necessarily four years old,

493
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: that long ago. Yeah, I mean, it's not that long ago.

494
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 1: It's um, what's the I'm trying to think of, what

495
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: was the one that we had in South America in

496
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: the eighties with Nicaragua. No, no, no no, no, no no, no, no,

497
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: what's the guy the guy whose wife collected all the shoes? Oh, yeah,

498
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,239
Speaker 1: you're talking. You're talking about the Philippines. The Philippines, Now

499
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: that was that was what's your name? U? Yes, but

500
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: that's the same thing that was about forty years ago

501
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,239
Speaker 1: at years yeah. So again not that long ago in

502
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: the popular memory, so totally totally. As I said, though

503
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: he had he came forward in nineteen twenty with the story.

504
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: In nineteen twenty one, his wife Celia would pass away,

505
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: but uh he would get then remarry a woman named Hermie.

506
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: She then obviously referred to everywhere Hermie Finkel. They got

507
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: married nineteen six and then Frank himself would die in

508
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,959
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, so ten years after he came forward. So

509
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: he died at the age of seventy six, which means

510
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: he came forward at the age of sixties six, So

511
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: he would have been in his twenties. Yeah, he would

512
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: have been the age at least. Yeah, it's the math

513
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: generally speaking at least that Yes, yes, it's not as

514
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: if he was a twenty year old dude saying that

515
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: I was there and you're like, no, you weren't, dummy,

516
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: or you know, he was a seventeen right, Yeah, so

517
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: the math generally speaking should work. There are multiple stories

518
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: out there about Frank's origin story, and part of that

519
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: seems to maybe be because of his second wife, Hermie,

520
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: because after he died, she she remarried, She married a man,

521
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: and then moved to Oshkosh, Wisconsin. To Wisconsin. I knew

522
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: that's gonna happen, and they were. They were not well

523
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: off in terms of money, and she needed extra money,

524
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: so she filed for a veteran's widow pension and she

525
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: kept pushing on it for many years. So no, they

526
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: never gave her a dime. She died in nineteen fifty one. Nine.

527
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: Was so she worked on this for a long time. Yeah,

528
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: oh yeah. She was much younger than he was. It

529
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: appears that maybe she was attracted to him for his fame,

530
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: of his story, because at that point he would have

531
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: been a seventy year old man marrying a maybe thirty

532
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: something year old ladies something. Yeah, I mean it's so

533
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: you can see it's maybe not a true loving relationship

534
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: in that regarding a romantic relationship, that's the way to

535
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: put it. So. There are several versions of Frank Finkel's

536
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: story out there, though his origin story, and here are

537
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: the main three that you'll come across in the reading

538
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: version one. Frank was born in Ohio to German immigrant parents,

539
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: and his parents spelled their last name f I n

540
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: c k l E, so Funkel or Finkel maybe, but

541
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: they appear to have dropped the sea later on while

542
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: he was still a boy, and they so then they

543
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: changed to Finkel, as you'll see a lot of places

544
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: f I n k l E. He would grow up

545
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: to be fluent in both English and German because he

546
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: lived with German parents, and then when he became a

547
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: young adult, he moved away from home to find his

548
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: way in the world. In Chicago. In eighteen seventy two,

549
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: on hard times, he enlisted in the U. S. Army

550
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: as a way to earn a living. He knew that

551
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: German soldiers were coveted by the U. S. Army, and

552
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: so he changed his name on his paper work to

553
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: August Finkel f I N C k l E. He

554
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: would say he was from Berlin, Prussia, and he would

555
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: tell them that his occupation was a clerk. Why would

556
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 1: you do that from Prussia? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, So

557
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: that's that's a weird thing that I didn't get for

558
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: a long time. But it turns out that the Prussian

559
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: Wars had been going on for a while and German

560
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: soldiers were of it because that meant that they had

561
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: been in battle, so they wouldn't freeze up. Where's a

562
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: lot of the Americans who would enlist the first time

563
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: gunpowder would go off, they'd pee their pants and freeze off. Understandably,

564
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: I'm not discrediting of that, but the questions were actually

565
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: pretty formidable soldiers. Yeah, they had done a lot of grit,

566
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: and that was something you would want to bring on

567
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: board to make your army much did that much stronger.

568
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: That's version one. So then he you know, he says,

569
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: I'm a clerk. He would then eventually rise through the

570
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: ranks of the Custers seven seventh Cavalry, and so that's

571
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: how he would be then in the place that he

572
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: said he was at the time he said he was.

573
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: Version number two is that Frank Finkel was born in

574
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 1: Germany under his bird given name at birth of August

575
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: Finkel f I N C K l E. He then

576
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: emigrated to the US and enlisted in the U. S.

577
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: Army in the early eighteen seventies. But it turns out

578
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: he wasn't that great of a soldier, and he wasn't

579
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: very well liked by the guys that he was enlisted

580
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: with because his accent was so thick and his grammar

581
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: was so bad that most people couldn't understand him, including

582
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: the native German speakers that he would encounter. And this

583
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: is why this particular version I don't buy it, because

584
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: I could just imagine that that gathering in that when

585
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: you know, he said this is I horn. How many

586
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: people are going to buy that? Right? I don't even

587
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 1: know what you just said? He thought, Yeah, I was

588
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: a survivor of the little big horn. See that was

589
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: the German accent to see. I believed it though, because

590
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: I didn't understand it. So I actually a little bit can't.

591
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: I know, we're not really like debating this yet, but

592
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: I can a little bit by that that his accent

593
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: might have been super super thick if he was trying

594
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: to convince people that he was August Finkel from right.

595
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: So he was faking the accent the American when he's

596
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: speaking English, but then he was not maybe so fluent

597
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: in German, or his German accent was really bad, and

598
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: so the native German speakers were like, dude, what you

599
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: can't understand this guy? I'm speaking German, what do you do?

600
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: You know? He's just like speaking Garbledegooper. That's the best

601
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: description yet. I can kind of buy that. Okay. So

602
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: Version three is basically the same as version one, except

603
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: instead of enlisting under the name of August, he instead

604
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 1: enlists under the name Frank Hall. And that whole story

605
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: comes out from Hermi because that is the story that

606
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: she's stuck to the entire time that she was working

607
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: to get the pension. I kind of like Frank Hall

608
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: better because it's easier to spell. I mean, it makes

609
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: sense that you know, she would have used the name

610
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: that he told her he was registered under, if that's

611
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: what he told her. Which is the hard part, because

612
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: I don't know what he said and what she said,

613
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 1: and what people have implied and and shoehorned into this

614
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: whole story. H Listen, we're very close to theories. So

615
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: let me run through the remainder of Frank's story. He's yeah,

616
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 1: believe me. This is a story heavy episode because we

617
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: got a little we got half a page here to go.

618
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 1: So whatever version of the story is correct or closest

619
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: to correct, they all converge on essentially the same series

620
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: of events. On the day of the Battle of the

621
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: Little Big Horn, Frank said that he was riding his

622
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: horse just like every other man and that day and

623
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: fighting and shooting, and his rifle was hit with a bullet,

624
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: and specifically, the wooden stock of his rifle was hit,

625
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: so the stock exploded and he was struck with a

626
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: piece of wood in the head. Sometimes it said he

627
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: was struck between the eyes, sometimes just somewhere in the face.

628
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: But the versions always kind of seemed to iterate that

629
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: are infer that what happens is he's either knocked out

630
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: or he is completely coated in blood and basically knocked out.

631
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: Maybe so he just coated in blood. At the same time,

632
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: his horse is also hit in the flank, which, if

633
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: you don't know, the flank of a horse is the

634
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: rib cage the side, so it panics, it bolts into

635
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: the line of oncoming enemy forces, this line of American Indians,

636
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 1: and blows through the line, and they think, well, it's

637
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: obviously it's a dead guy on a horse, because look

638
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: at all a blood on him. But while he's going

639
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: through the line, he's shot twice. He shot once in

640
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: the foot and once in the shoulder or maybe in

641
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: the abdomen. We don't know which because it and that's

642
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. He was shot twice. And he keeps going,

643
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: and his horse keeps running, and he eventually comes to

644
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: and then he wanders in the in the wilderness for

645
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 1: several days until his horse gives out, and he says,

646
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 1: as mercy, he shot the horse to put it out

647
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: of his misery. He then wanders on foot with a

648
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: shot foot. But he wanders on foot for several more

649
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: days until he comes upon a cabin with a guy

650
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: outside chopping wood, and the guy starts yelling at him

651
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: get out of here. And what does he do? He

652
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: passes out. Yes, he wakes up. He's now in the cabin.

653
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: The man has treated his wounds, and he comes to

654
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: discover that he is in a cabin with a man

655
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: named Bill. That's the man who he saw and who

656
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: treated his wounds. There is another man in the cabin

657
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: who was very ill and dying from tuberculosis. That's the

658
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: kind of guy to share a cabin with. Yep. Frank

659
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: does not ever get this guy's name, and Bill tells

660
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: them that they are trappers. Then the second man dies,

661
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 1: and you know, Frank is now well enough to move

662
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: on his own, and so they part ways, which is weird.

663
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 1: I have heard versions of this or you know, people

664
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: reading into and say, you know, what probably is that

665
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: these guys weren't actually trappers. They were probably gun runners

666
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: or whiskey runners. And who knows what the other guy

667
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: died of. It might have been tuberculotions, he might have

668
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: been shot and Frank just didn't know it. There's a

669
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that could get you back in those days,

670
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 1: stuff that would be easily treatable today. Yeah, I think

671
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 1: Fankel said too that when he was there, he didn't

672
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: see anything resembling a trap anywhere anywhere inside or outside

673
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 1: the cabins. Yeah, that kind of like, man, Yeah, exactly.

674
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's very weird. But but from this

675
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: point though, Finkel wanders back to civilization and he discovers that,

676
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: oh wait, everybody that was with Custer that day was killed,

677
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: and one of two things happens. Again, this is depending

678
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: on the version of the story that you read. He

679
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: either said, oh, I can't tell anybody who I am

680
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: because they're gonna call me a deserter and they're gonna

681
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: kill me because deserters were known to be shot or

682
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: deserting it was a huge crime. Or the other version,

683
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: which I find absurdly funny because it's absurd, is that

684
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,479
Speaker 1: he reports to some officer at some station and says,

685
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: this is who I am, and then officer says, oh, okay, great,

686
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: well I'll need you to provide evidence, and that evidence

687
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: will be in the form of two witnesses, and he says, oh,

688
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: well they're all dead, so okay. He about faces and

689
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: he heads off west to start his life anew like

690
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: everybody else in those days. Yeah, I mean, that's sure.

691
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: I'll just say though, that it seems unlikely that he

692
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: could not produce two single people, especially if he rose

693
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: through the ranks. There should have been people in the

694
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: other There should have been other people who would have

695
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: been able to say yep, yeah, there were a lot

696
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: of survivors from the Little Big Horn. Well yeah, six hundred.

697
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: Only two died of customer seven, so you would think that,

698
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: But no, Instead he just beats feet. He heads to

699
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest. He meets his Delia, who he marries,

700
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: has three kids with her, and becomes a very very

701
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: wealthy man, a wealthy farmer, and keeps his mouth shut

702
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: up until when he probably figured nobody could do anything

703
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: about it. It It doesn't matter. I'm guessing that if that's

704
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,439
Speaker 1: the reason that he finally spilled the beans, that's why

705
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: he spilled the beans. Yeah, but that's our story. And

706
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: so now, after all of this time, it's time to

707
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: actually get into theories. But before we do that, let's

708
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: have a quick word from our sponsors. Hey there, Joe

709
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,520
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710
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,399
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711
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,959
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712
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,839
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713
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Speaker 1: you know I'm ready for anything, right, I'm a prepper.

714
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Speaker 1: I'd like to be prepared. So if a storm takes

715
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: out your power, simply Safe is ready with a backup.

716
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,600
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717
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,800
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718
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: your alarm, Simply Safe will still get you the help

719
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,719
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720
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: this is overkilled, but you don't need to be ready

721
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: for every worst case scenario. But simply Safe, on the

722
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,959
Speaker 1: other hand, is always ready for that just in case.

723
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: And that's what makes it so awesome For a paranored

724
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 1: person like me. It's to bes knees now. Simple Safe

725
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: could cost you an arm and a leg, and it

726
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: probably should. That be fair, but it doesn't. Actually, that's

727
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: because they're good people. They charge you what's fair. Well,

728
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: they charge you lesson what's fair. Really, it's only for ten,

729
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: nine and nine a month. There's no contracts, no hidden fees.

730
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: I recommend it to everyone I know, and I recommend

731
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: it to you right now. You gotta check it out,

732
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: so good today to simply say dot com slash sideways.

733
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: That's simply say if that's s I M P L

734
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: I S A F E dot com slash sideways, and

735
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:29,479
Speaker 1: we're back bills paid. Let's get into theories. So there

736
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: are really there's really just two theories. I mean, there wasn't. Yeah,

737
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: I mean this this is the simplest theory set ever.

738
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of different details. So let me

739
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: let we're just gonna run through all of the parts

740
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: of theory number one, and then we'll run through all

741
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 1: of the parts of theory number two. By the way,

742
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: the things in theory number one are gonna mirror the

743
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: things in theory number two because they are flip sides

744
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: of the same coin. So don't be surprised if we

745
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: talk about thing and then later on we're talking about

746
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: it again. So the first theory is, of course, that

747
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: he was in fact there. It's not unheard of for

748
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: men who are in very bloody, violent confrontations to then

749
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: not talk about those things for many, many, many years.

750
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: So he might have been a bit ashamed of what happened,

751
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: anybody I felt like, you know, even and even if

752
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: he was totally blameless in his own mind, he felt

753
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 1: like not everybody would see it that way. Yeah. You

754
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: know what's funny is I was actually talking to a

755
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: friend just this weekend who his dad. I know that

756
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: I did a Vietnam story last week, but it just

757
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: happened to be coincidental. Is that his dad served in

758
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. He brought home a foot locker. That

759
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: foot locker has been locked the entire time that this

760
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: guy has known. His dad has died years ago, but

761
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: his mom is still alive, and his mom has sworn

762
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: that until she dies, they unlocked that foot locker. Like

763
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: probably that's it. But the point is, like some people

764
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: are just so shook up and messed up by the

765
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: things they experience and see that they have to lock

766
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: them away in that way. And some guys just never

767
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: talk about it, and some take four decades to actually

768
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 1: be able to talk about Yeah, I think it would

769
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: be hilarious. You know what, It finally is time to

770
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 1: open that up. It's nothing but like some comic books

771
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: and maybe you have you know, I don't know, an

772
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 1: old pair of shoes. You know you're talking about my

773
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: friend with the Vietnam stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be

774
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: all rotted and so old. It's actually just going to

775
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: be a note that says trick to you. Yeah, I

776
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: like that, and not a locker full of black mold. Yeah. Okay,

777
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: Well let's move through the series though. So there is

778
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 1: one person in here who seems to support the fact

779
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: of that maybe Frank was there. This Frank was actually there,

780
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: and that is a gentleman by the name name of

781
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: Charles Windolf. Windel said that he was a friend of

782
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: Frank Finkel. There was, and there was, by the way,

783
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: there was a guy in Custers seventh that had the

784
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: name Finkel. So there is a guy that appears to

785
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 1: maybe be in line with this. So Windolf says that

786
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: he knew Frank Finkel, and when he went through the

787
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: remains that were on the battlefield, he couldn't find his friend,

788
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: and his friends should have been identifiable because he was

789
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: the tallest man in the seventh. He was the biggest

790
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: man in the seventh if you remember, this is a

791
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: hundred years ago, and with nutrition being what it was

792
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: in YadA YadA, YadA, no, six footers were rare and

793
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: big guys were rare, so to be a large tall

794
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 1: man was uncommon, and Finkel, according to this was a

795
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: six ft plus heavy man. I believe that Windolph is

796
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: the one who tells the story that Finkel's horse would

797
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 1: slow down and fall behind everybody else to dang heavy

798
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: because he was too dang heavy on too small of

799
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,439
Speaker 1: a horse. I don't know if that's well, then that's

800
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 1: interesting because the horse really found his reserves of energy

801
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: when the time came and uh yeah, yeah, yeah, all

802
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 1: of a sudden bam, yeah exactly. So he says that

803
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,280
Speaker 1: he went through the site, he looked forward. He should

804
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: have been able to find the body of this very

805
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 1: large man, no matter what the locals had done to

806
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: the body, never mind the effects of the heat of

807
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: the summer sun. He was a totally different body type

808
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 1: than corrected. He never found that body. And among all

809
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: of the bodies that were left. Now, if you look

810
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: at there are some pictures of our Frank Finkel standing.

811
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: So the famous one that you see is always him

812
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: and his wife. I believe it's Delia. They're sitting together

813
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 1: in a swing the first Yeah. But there are pictures

814
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: of him standing with a cigar in his mouth and I,

815
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: oh god, I can't remember what kind of hatias on,

816
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: but it's a very it's so such style, and he

817
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: just looks like he's of that era. And I believe

818
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 1: he's got the suit vest on and the suit jacket

819
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: all that, but he looks like based on that image,

820
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: he looks like a pretty tall, imposing dude. And so

821
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: when I saw that, initially, I was like whatever. And

822
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: then I saw that and I started reading the accounts, Okay, well,

823
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: maybe maybe he really is the same guy, because he

824
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: seems to sort of fit that profile. Now back in

825
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 1: to god, it was five years ago. There was a

826
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: photo that came out in some publications, so that would

827
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: have been two thousand thirteen, that said that it was

828
00:49:55,160 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 1: a photo of Sergeant August Finkel from the the seventh Yes,

829
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: and it was it was saying, this is him. People

830
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: who you know, these people who make their living looking

831
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: at photos and comparing things, and I don't. And there's

832
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: this whole host of professions that do that. But the

833
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: point is they looked at that, and they looked at

834
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: a picture of our Frank Finkel from about ten years

835
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: later to compare the two, and they said, yeah, other

836
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: than the effects of age, these are this is the

837
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: same man. Obviously, this is this. We say, it's the

838
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: same guy. So there's that photographic evidence that seems to

839
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: support the story. There are stories, uh, if we move

840
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 1: into another vein of the he was there, there are

841
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: stories from the American Indians who were in the fight.

842
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: And by the way they called apparently I didn't know this,

843
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: but they would sometimes call the Americans long spears, and

844
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that was based on the rifles that could

845
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: really reach out and touch. So, yeah, thank you. I

846
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: didn't get it. I was like, I don't want to

847
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: call them logs because it's a long gun, but that

848
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: makes way more sense. So they would call him long spears.

849
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 1: And there was the stories about long spears breaking you know,

850
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: charging the line in this kind of suicidal run, and

851
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: there were some that would break through. Well there are

852
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: at least one that they said broke through and they

853
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: never got to because either they didn't go after him

854
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,959
Speaker 1: soon enough or they just said, yeah, that guy looks

855
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 1: totally dead, as in a man strapped to a horse

856
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: that is dead, because that's that happens. I mean, if

857
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: you have a horse, right, I mean yeah, it just

858
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: kind of seems like, yeah, he had, especially if he

859
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: had been knocked on conscious and you know, was bloody.

860
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: He's gonna look dead and he's flopping about, and he's

861
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: gonna unconscious or dead. He's gonna fall off the horse shortly.

862
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: So you know, we waste energy on that when you

863
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: got yeah, I mean, if you think about it in

864
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: the natural position for a man, when you when a

865
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 1: body goes limp, it falls forward onto the withers and

866
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: the horn of the sadd the withers of the horse

867
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: and the horn of the saddle, and it's go. You're

868
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: gonna be draped across the neck of the horse and

869
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: you're just going to literally flop about. If your feet

870
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: are in the stirrups just right, though you will, you

871
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: might not fall out. And so I'm sure that I

872
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: can see how they would see a guy like that,

873
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 1: arms just flapping about, you know, bouncing around, bloody as hell,

874
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: and going, oh yeah, no, that dude totally dead, totally dead,

875
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: don't worry about it, just let it through. Which, okay,

876
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: I can get behind that one. You know, there was

877
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: a lot of other things they had to pay attention

878
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: to well, and there were other things there were there

879
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 1: were there were women and younger men behind the lines.

880
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: They could probably take care of this wounded soldier anyways,

881
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 1: and they were the ones that would go after. It

882
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: wasn't the guy he's in the front line that would

883
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: stop and turn around and chase him down. Yeah, he

884
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: was the women and the young men and the boys,

885
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 1: even the boys and the girls who would turn on

886
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: and then track that horse, because there were stories of

887
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: men who would get through and they would be tracked

888
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: all the way down and killed. But there is this

889
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: one that they never found, and so that's that kind

890
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: of lends a little credence to Mr Finkel. Yeah, I mean,

891
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: it's a lot of coincidences. But okay, yep, you're right,

892
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: there's a lot of coincidences there. Let's move on to

893
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: other section of this, which is there are researchers who

894
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,720
Speaker 1: have looked at the details that our Frank Finkel gave

895
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: about the events of the Battle of the Little Big Horn,

896
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: and they have said that he had to have been

897
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: there because he gave details that the layman should not

898
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: have known and been able to provide without either having

899
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 1: been there or read the official accountings. There's probably didn't

900
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: They didn't have wikipede you back in those days, but

901
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: they were probably were ways to find out that information.

902
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: But that's a serious dedication to the back. In those days,

903
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: it would be harder to find out well, and you

904
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: have to you'd have to come up with the idea

905
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 1: of you know what, I think I'm going to tell

906
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: people that I was a customer. Stand all right, let's

907
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: go do this. Do a bunch of research, like, spent

908
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 1: a lot of time formulating this story to make it believable.

909
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: And that's like it could have been. It could have

910
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: been his pet hobby. I mean, let me flip sides

911
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 1: real quick, though. Okay, it could have been his pet hobby,

912
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: and he collected every detail he couldn't he There are

913
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: guys that do this about everything from sports to random

914
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: historical events, and they developed this encyclopedic knowledge based on

915
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: every single thing that they read. And that is what

916
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: some people to counter what this theory, this part of

917
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: the theory says, is there are people out there who's saying, yeah, no,

918
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:55,839
Speaker 1: it turns out that what he said wasn't all that revelatory,

919
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: and all he did was stitching together in a nice

920
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: narro tim and that's what really roped folk in. So

921
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: I don't know about that poor that portion of it.

922
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: If we move on, though, two Finkel's German, okay, which

923
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: was crap. Remember that whole he was unintelligible, crap, like

924
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: talking with a mouthful of rocks, unintelligent. Right, So people

925
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: have said, well, it's that's probably actually what was going on,

926
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: because if he was the child of immigrants, that means

927
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: he was learning the language only from his parents. This

928
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: is the theory, by the way, not that he was

929
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: in a larger community, but just his parents. So he

930
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: learned poorly. He would have almost been talking in pigeon

931
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 1: German or baby German, like baby talk, and so it

932
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: was just so horrendous. Or you know, they could have

933
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: been speaking a dialect. They could have been from a

934
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: small village that had a German elect and that that's

935
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,240
Speaker 1: what they taught him. And I mean, I know that's

936
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 1: you know, some of my family who still lives in Italy.

937
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: They're the oldest generations of them. It. You know, people

938
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 1: who speak just Italian don't understand them quite as well

939
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: as they would because they have this dialect. It's a

940
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 1: regional dialect, and you know, it's pretty much the same,

941
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: but there are some concepts that are like what you know,

942
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: it's like French and patois. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're they're

943
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,879
Speaker 1: they're super close. But if you don't don't know, then

944
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: it becomes like English and like Scotland English. Yeah, it's

945
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 1: like American and Scotland English. Like I don't understand that

946
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 1: most of the time will listen. Most Scots don't, but

947
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 1: I mean that would be I guess another thing as well,

948
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 1: that you know, he could have actually been fluent, functionally

949
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: fluent in something, but it was maybe not just German.

950
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: The other direction in this theory that might be out

951
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: there is, well, you know, there's the whole thing where

952
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: Hermie tried to collect the pension. But if Frank himself

953
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 1: really was part of the seventh you would think that

954
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 1: he would try to get what was owed him. And

955
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: there have been theories that say, well, he didn't do

956
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: it because he was just so well off that he

957
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: didn't need it, or there's also the idea that well,

958
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: he didn't do it because he was so embarrassed about

959
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: what happened. And this is this is I'm putting this

960
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: in between the two theories because I don't really know

961
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: which direction it goes. Well, it might be that it

962
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 1: might be too that after his experience at the little

963
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: big horn. He decided he wasn't that keen I'm being

964
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: in the military had gone back in and said, well, hey,

965
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: I'm still alive. They'll say, hey, that's great, We're gonna

966
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: put you back in with the seventh again. He can

967
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: go back out and you know, you do your thing again.

968
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: And he didn't want to do that. So in that

969
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: sense he might actually have used might this incident to

970
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: actually dessert actually leave the army because he was presumed in,

971
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: which would then say that, no, wonder he didn't try

972
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: to clean his pension, because yeah, he might have just decided, yeah,

973
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: this army thing isn't working out. That's probably a good

974
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 1: point for us to transition over to theory number two,

975
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 1: which is that Frank Finkel was a fraud and he

976
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: wasn't actually at the battle a little bit horn. Ok, No,

977
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: he would not, it turns out. And this this is

978
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 1: boggling to me that a hundred and twenty people up

979
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: until I guess about nine thirty, we're claiming that they

980
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: were there in some fashion too. I don't understand that

981
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: it's a claim for fame, I guess, but it's just

982
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 1: it's so weird to me. I don't. I don't get it.

983
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 1: But their stories come out in one of about one

984
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: five different ways, and one of these will sound familiar

985
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: to you as you have learned from Mr Finkel's story.

986
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: But those ways are that they were the last one

987
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: to be dispatched for reinforcements and or supplies. They hid

988
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: in a log, the an animal, or behind a rock.

989
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: They charged the enemy and somehow got through ding ding ding,

990
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: Mr Finkel. They got to the battle site late because

991
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: of some kind of mishap, or they were captured and

992
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: held enemy by the American Indians and for some point

993
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,439
Speaker 1: for some duration of time before they escaped. I kind

994
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: of doubt that one. Okay, well, let's just take these

995
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 1: in order. I don't think they took prisoners. Did that. Well,

996
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: let's just take these in orders, though, Joe, So the

997
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 1: last one dispatched. We pretty well know who the dispatched

998
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: people were. People who hid well that's mostly who he

999
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 1: except for one that we'll talk about. Were you know,

1000
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean, they were so domb it was very easy

1001
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 1: to fool that b my hiding behind a rock. They

1002
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: were totally pooled by that. I love your sarcasm. I

1003
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: have to call it out as sarcasm though, because sometimes

1004
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: sometimes people don't get the sarcasm. Yeah, I know that's

1005
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: a dumb theory. Um. But the hiding in things, as

1006
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 1: we'll find, is real charging through the enemy. That's what

1007
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: Finkel says he did, got to the battle site late.

1008
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 1: There's some guys that basically it's the same thing as

1009
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: Remember how we said Finkel was so big his horse

1010
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 1: was slowed down. It's that kind of vein of a

1011
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: train of thoughts horse this day. Yeah, I got the crap,

1012
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: I got the the ugo of horses. Yeah, or the

1013
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: horse and the horse has got a problem or something

1014
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: like that. Something like that ran lame. And then the

1015
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: they were captured and held prisoner. That one completely holds

1016
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: no water because the Native Americans, they didn't know, they

1017
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: didn't take prisoners. They yeah, they would have to feed you,

1018
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 1: and how's you and take care of you. Screw that.

1019
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: There was no Geneva convention. They just said hi, thanks.

1020
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 1: One of the reasons why back in the day here

1021
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 1: in America, the white people also didn't send you away

1022
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 1: to prison for a lot of crimes. They just strung

1023
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 1: you up because we were poor and we didn't have

1024
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: the resources to build jails and prisons and stuff like that.

1025
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely resolutely. So let's let's move through things here. So

1026
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 1: there is a guy that I did not talk about earlier,

1027
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: and he is one of the scouts for Custer Crows. Yeah,

1028
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: and that's Curly. His name is Curly Curly Crow. I

1029
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: don't think that's what they call him, Joe, but they

1030
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: called him Curly. Well, Curly was a scout and there's

1031
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: a couple of different versions about how his story went.

1032
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 1: But but Curly became after the fact a popular figure,

1033
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 1: and he was paid to travel around by white people

1034
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: to tell his story of the events that happened at

1035
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: the Battle of a Little Big Horn, and well, you know,

1036
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 1: people are weird. They like gory stories. He basically his

1037
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,439
Speaker 1: story from the way I understand it. There's two there's

1038
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: two versions of it. Either he was sent to go

1039
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: get reinforcements, so he was dispatched and gone before the

1040
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 1: massacre happened, or he was still there realized that the

1041
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: U S forces were s o l gutted his own

1042
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: horse and climbed into inside of it Tonton style. All

1043
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 1: of the Empire strikes back, yes, and hid until the

1044
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: locals had disappeared. The forces that were there were gone,

1045
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: and then got out and got away with a nice

1046
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 1: bronze dark red tan. You know that that nice intestinal

1047
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: tan that one gets from seeping in a horse. Yeah,

1048
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 1: so I don't. I mean, he told the story everywhere.

1049
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 1: I don't know which version is right, and I'm not

1050
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 1: even probably going into it because he'saly depended on the crowd.

1051
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: What's that Probably depended on the crowd where probably did

1052
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 1: depend on a crowd of gentlemen and ladies. He probably

1053
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: told the more mundane in a drunken room. He probably

1054
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 1: told the more gory version because they really got into

1055
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: because probably right. Yeah, I thought that the crow scouts

1056
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 1: actually part of the ways with Custar before the battle,

1057
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: and they reported back to him and said, okay, that's

1058
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: all we know. Well we'll see you later, and that

1059
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 1: that that's that's what I probably. Okay, That's the hard

1060
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 1: part with Curly is that Curly is saying, oh, yeah, no,

1061
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: he's stuck by him till nearly the Maybe maybe that

1062
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 1: could be wrong. It could be some of the scouts

1063
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: took off and maybe he stuck out the larger contingent. Yeah,

1064
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. Okay, So let's move to another figure

1065
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: that we haven't talked about as well. So there was

1066
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 1: Curly who we hadn't talked about in the He's a Fraud.

1067
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 1: There's also a guy by the name of Daniel Kenep.

1068
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: Do you think that's how you say? It's Kenep? Okay, Kennep.

1069
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call him Caney, she says, Cannapey, he says

1070
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 1: can I. We're going to just keep moving on for

1071
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: the night. Okay. Nobody like that. Alright. So this guy Daniel,

1072
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 1: he said he wrote about finding the body of his

1073
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: friend Frank Finkel the day or the day after or

1074
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: the day after that of the battle uh And on

1075
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 1: the field of and said, hey, I found him and

1076
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 1: I buried him. But honestly, Daniel Kneipe, his story is

1077
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 1: hugely discredited by everybody because he completely screws every detail

1078
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 1: of the day up in his writing. But what's his

1079
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 1: connection was he one of Custers. He was there, so

1080
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: he was part of the seventh and he just wasn't

1081
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 1: under Custer's direct command. He wasn't. He was in the

1082
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 1: General six hundred, but he wasn't in that one third

1083
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 1: bunch that Custer took with him. But the problem is

1084
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: is that his story is so absolutely left up that

1085
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 1: he he talks about the wounds that Custer had on

1086
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: his body, and they're nowhere near the wounds that are

1087
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: officially recorded as of Custer having had. So he's he's

1088
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: completely off the market in the things that he has

1089
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: in his book. There's a gentleman by the name of

1090
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: Samuel Alcott. Alcott wrote about the he was another one

1091
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 1: that was He was also he was also one of

1092
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 1: the lucky ones that was not in that group of

1093
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 1: two hundred. He wrote about the fact that he and

1094
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 1: uh Finkel were friends. So what happened is they both

1095
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: came in from uh so Fink. It was in the

1096
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 1: seventh Alcott was in one of those other divisions that

1097
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: was all kind of traveling up the Yellowstone River at

1098
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: the same time. And they were both clerks, and so

1099
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 1: they got to know each other, and they rose to

1100
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: the ranks together, and so he knew think very well.

1101
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 1: And he said that he went back to the battle

1102
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 1: site and he found the body of his friend Frank Finkel,

1103
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 1: and he didn't personally bury him, but other men who

1104
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 1: were there did bury him. And by the way, they

1105
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: buried almost every man on that site. They didn't really

1106
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: fast sort of, yeah, but they got them all in

1107
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: the ground rather than leaving them out in the air

1108
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: to the elements. Well yeah, I mean that's that shows

1109
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: a respect, you know, instead of saying sorry, dude, sucks

1110
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:44,400
Speaker 1: to be you and just beating feet out of the town.

1111
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 1: So he but he says that listen, I knew who

1112
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: he was. I could identify him, and I found his

1113
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: body there. We talked about this before. There is the

1114
01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 1: stories of people charging into the law lines of the

1115
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 1: oncoming American Indians and the whole long spears charging and

1116
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 1: kind of a suicidal run, and the fact that one

1117
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: got through. Well, as I said before, the stories, the

1118
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: initial stories or the actual stories from the tribes that

1119
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 1: were there, say that, oh yeah, they got through, but

1120
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 1: we hunted them all down. And the one guy that

1121
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 1: we didn't catch and kill ourselves, yeah, we didn't kill

1122
01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 1: him because he died. He died on as he died

1123
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: and fell off his horse, so we didn't have to.

1124
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:38,959
Speaker 1: They tracked him, and exactly they tracked every man who

1125
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 1: broke through the line, so typically that it had maybe

1126
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 1: in this particular situation, of course, but yeah, yeah, I

1127
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 1: mean it's possible that one guy got through and they

1128
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: thought they tracked him down and they didn't or you know,

1129
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:56,439
Speaker 1: they didn't even notice in the you know, would have noticed,

1130
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 1: but you know, and on general principle is it's not

1131
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 1: a good idea unless somebody out to your lines and

1132
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,880
Speaker 1: like get behind you. That's not not a great idea. Yeah,

1133
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:06,440
Speaker 1: because he can turn around and just start firing. And

1134
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: nobody likes a bullet in the back. No, not at all.

1135
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 1: It doesn't. It doesn't do a good thing. Okay, let's

1136
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 1: do so this is as with the it's it's all good,

1137
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:20,600
Speaker 1: it's all bad theory, says that, well, you remember the

1138
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:24,440
Speaker 1: guys that nursed him back to health, the trappers, Bill

1139
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 1: and Mr Tuberculosis. It's a weird fact that he remembers

1140
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 1: the name of Bill, but he does not remember the

1141
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:35,720
Speaker 1: name of the man that died, because he says that

1142
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 1: he lived with them for at least a month, if

1143
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: not too for a while before that. I didn't think

1144
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 1: the guy with tuberculois has lived that long. Did he

1145
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:46,600
Speaker 1: live for a month or two? The things that I

1146
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 1: have read gave me the impression that it was at

1147
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 1: least a month or name. It's weird, Yeah, it's it's

1148
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,600
Speaker 1: a weird. And I'm not the only one who said, like,

1149
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: that's really weird that you'd remember the name of one

1150
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 1: man and not the other. It makes you think that

1151
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 1: it was a hastily concocted bit of information. Oh and

1152
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 1: then I met Bill. Oh but by the way, there

1153
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 1: was this guy with tuberculosis, but he died. I don't

1154
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 1: remember his name. Everybody nobody cares somebody with tuberculosis and dying.

1155
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 1: Why I learned his name just picture, like in the

1156
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:18,920
Speaker 1: cab and it's like, you know, I was like, hey, there, Hey,

1157
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 1: they're dying guy. What's I mean more than that? If

1158
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,639
Speaker 1: he is dying, great, and he's sick and he's pretty

1159
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 1: much just unconscious the entire time or sleeping the entire time,

1160
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:32,639
Speaker 1: and he has never know and Frank is injured himself,

1161
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,680
Speaker 1: and maybe there's there is there was no in and

1162
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 1: out of consciousness and yeah, and so maybe there was

1163
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: no actual interaction. And then Bill was just kind of

1164
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 1: like my buddy over here. Yeah, the dad, the dying guy.

1165
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 1: And also if he made it up, then you think

1166
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 1: he would have made up a name for the guy.

1167
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 1: He easily could have it. Yeah, exactly, it was totally ted.

1168
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:57,679
Speaker 1: Yeah that was Ted right there, aimed for the cat ted. Yeah,

1169
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 1: maybe that was him. So let's circle back to because

1170
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 1: I know we talked about this several times, but let's

1171
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 1: circle back to the German language bit. And I know,

1172
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 1: but I think I think it's funny, is that I

1173
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 1: thought his Anglish was supposed to be supposedly good though. Well,

1174
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 1: but that's the thing is that according to Alcott, his

1175
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 1: English was actually pretty crappy. And that's not the word

1176
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:25,759
Speaker 1: I wanted to use. But if his English was that bad,

1177
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 1: and they describe it as saying that he used made

1178
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 1: up and wrong words, and he would string things together

1179
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:36,800
Speaker 1: into sentences that were nonsensical like he done do did do,

1180
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 1: but did that? And that almost is a little translation

1181
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 1: of things that I've read that makes no sense. Well,

1182
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 1: if he truly knows how to speak the English language,

1183
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:52,360
Speaker 1: then he is putting on an amazing act for four years, because,

1184
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 1: by the way, he's been in for four years before

1185
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 1: the battle a little bighorn Or And I don't see,

1186
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,719
Speaker 1: I haven't read anything that said that Finkel and Dayton

1187
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:08,640
Speaker 1: Washington had a horrid, horrid accent. And then he, you know,

1188
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 1: made great strides over time to be this fluent English speaker,

1189
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:18,120
Speaker 1: Like when did he show up in Dayton? I don't

1190
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 1: have a date. I sense I have a sense that

1191
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 1: he had been there for at least twenty years, because

1192
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, four years isn't very long time,

1193
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 1: but twenty years. You know, if after he got out

1194
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: of the military, he had gone someplace, became more and

1195
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 1: more fluent, I would say, four years of immersion, of

1196
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 1: immersion learning of any language, you'd speak at a hell

1197
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 1: of a lot better at the end of the four

1198
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:46,559
Speaker 1: years totally. But he still might not well. But but

1199
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 1: that's the thing that after four years he's still saying

1200
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:54,639
Speaker 1: I do do do do do made impediment to okay,

1201
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,800
Speaker 1: And I don't think it was, because if you read

1202
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:01,800
Speaker 1: the things where he's making up these these crazy sentences,

1203
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 1: it just sounds like that he just didn't get to

1204
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:08,879
Speaker 1: the new language at all. And so that I actually

1205
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: have a huge problem with if what Alcott is saying

1206
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 1: is right, I really it's to me, it's a huge

1207
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 1: nail against Frank Finkel from Date Washington, because that's just

1208
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 1: such an even with forty years, it just seems like

1209
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 1: so I have a hard time lining the two up. Yeah. Yeah,

1210
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 1: I mean I could sit here and talk about it

1211
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:38,799
Speaker 1: all day, but we should just move on again, okay.

1212
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys like that issue special bonus episode.

1213
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 1: There we go. So let's see. Let's see. Other things

1214
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 1: against Frank Finkel being there is the fact that he

1215
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:57,759
Speaker 1: did not attend the reunion, which specifically had a man

1216
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:03,479
Speaker 1: named Charles Windolph in attendance. Windolf said that he knew

1217
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 1: the Finkel that was at the Battle of a Little

1218
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:12,320
Speaker 1: Big Horn. Ye. Yeah, And so our Frank Finkel didn't

1219
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 1: go to this event with him, as if he was

1220
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 1: avoiding meeting the man that he knew. He didn't know

1221
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:22,599
Speaker 1: how he never heard of the reunion when that though,

1222
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,519
Speaker 1: I don't have a clear after like n when he

1223
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 1: came out with it was after he came forward, But

1224
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 1: I don't have a clear sense of the date, like

1225
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 1: you know, was it two months after he came out

1226
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:39,320
Speaker 1: or was it eight years after? I don't have a

1227
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 1: clear sense of dating, because unfortunately the reading always says

1228
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,720
Speaker 1: and he declined to attend to this event, and it

1229
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:49,120
Speaker 1: never says I can't find the date, but you know

1230
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 1: where the event was, because that's the other thing. It's

1231
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 1: like the guy lives clear on the West coast. You

1232
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:56,599
Speaker 1: know what I mean, I can't I can't find like

1233
01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 1: what I just described as exact list. I mean, that's

1234
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:03,000
Speaker 1: why it's annoying, right, It's like, maybe it's right when

1235
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 1: his wife was dying, you know, he said I could

1236
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:08,720
Speaker 1: see this Windolf guy, or I could stay with my

1237
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 1: dying Delia, or maybe everything was just tounky dory but

1238
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 1: it was harvest season, or maybe she just didn't feel

1239
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:21,120
Speaker 1: like traveling. Two. Yeah, maybe he's like in retrospect, like

1240
01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 1: that was a guy. It was a total jerk, and

1241
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:25,960
Speaker 1: he told me to go with Custard. I lost rock

1242
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:30,160
Speaker 1: paper scissors to him. I know there's that too, but yeah,

1243
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 1: I just think people forget travel back in those days

1244
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 1: was a lot harder than this today. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah.

1245
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:39,639
Speaker 1: Let's see what are I've got. I've got two last

1246
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:42,640
Speaker 1: bullet points in here. They're not actually bullet points. I

1247
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 1: know Devin got really excited when I said that, But

1248
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 1: there's last two points here about the he is actually

1249
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 1: not telling the truth theory, which is, if you remember

1250
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 1: I said that Hermie Finkel, his second wife, said that,

1251
01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:00,639
Speaker 1: oh well, he enlisted under this name, Frank Hall which

1252
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 1: is completely different than everything that we've talked about so

1253
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:07,960
Speaker 1: far before. Well, there's a huge issue with that, and

1254
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 1: she was really really big on pushing that theory. But

1255
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 1: the problem, of course is that there was a Frank Hall.

1256
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: I'm sure there were many Frank Halls. There was a

1257
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:19,840
Speaker 1: well known Frank Hall. There's an obvious Frank Hall in

1258
01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:23,559
Speaker 1: the time frame in the Seventh Cavalry. The problem is

1259
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 1: is that that Frank Hall was five and a half

1260
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 1: feet tall. He was fourteen years older than our Frank Finkel.

1261
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, he deserted the Seventh a

1262
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:39,559
Speaker 1: year before the Battle of a Little Big Horn. So

1263
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:44,600
Speaker 1: he's like, he's completely not in the storyline or the

1264
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:48,200
Speaker 1: story arc. So I think that's I mean, if Delia

1265
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 1: had or not Delia, but if Hermie had said, oh well,

1266
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:54,639
Speaker 1: he must have been under August, maybe she'd have had

1267
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:57,679
Speaker 1: something to go on. But she really she honed in

1268
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:01,439
Speaker 1: on this one, this Frank Hall idea, and that seems

1269
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 1: to be what screwed her up. And that also seems

1270
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:08,960
Speaker 1: to kind of torpedo the whole Frank Finkel story because

1271
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 1: everybody says, well, she must have gotten that from him,

1272
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:15,560
Speaker 1: like he must have said, Oh, this is what I

1273
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 1: really did. It's just so weird though, because it sounds

1274
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:21,200
Speaker 1: like the story is when he was telling it, he

1275
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:24,719
Speaker 1: was a Gust Finkel, and there was that Sergeant August

1276
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 1: Finkel that, like, for all they knew, totally could have

1277
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 1: been him. It's just so weird that she would just

1278
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 1: continue to push that he was Frank Hall. Yeah, I don't,

1279
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I I can't speak for her. I

1280
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:41,000
Speaker 1: can't say what the heck was going through her mind

1281
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 1: when she started going. I mean, maybe she maybe he

1282
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:48,519
Speaker 1: was a daughtering old fool and she didn't really pay

1283
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:52,839
Speaker 1: him that much attention until after he died and she went, oh, hell,

1284
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:57,519
Speaker 1: I really should have listened to what he said now,

1285
01:16:57,800 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 1: Or maybe he knew that she had kind of only

1286
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:02,920
Speaker 1: married him for his money and was like, screw you,

1287
01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 1: that would be the best way to get a gold

1288
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 1: digger belt. But the fact that there's so much confusion

1289
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 1: surrounding his history, you know, doesn't totally shoot the whole thing. Now,

1290
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:15,760
Speaker 1: when it comes to the Battle of the Little Big

1291
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 1: Horn and Custer's last stand, nobody seems to agree on anything.

1292
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:24,160
Speaker 1: And that's that's for everything. I mean, nobody knows exactly

1293
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 1: what happened to Custer's last stand. I mean, uh, you know,

1294
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: so the popular conception is say they had their last

1295
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:32,599
Speaker 1: stand on a hilltop, but nobody's really even totally sure

1296
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:35,320
Speaker 1: about that. There's some archaeological evidence that you know, from

1297
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:38,360
Speaker 1: the disposition of the bodies, etcetera, that says maybe not,

1298
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:42,120
Speaker 1: you know, well yeah, and there's there's there's there's arguments

1299
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:45,479
Speaker 1: that actually Custer was shot and killed in the river

1300
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 1: and his men drug his body to where it was found.

1301
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:51,880
Speaker 1: I mean, this is and this is going deep into

1302
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 1: the weeds about the Custer conspiracy, which is a completely

1303
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:59,760
Speaker 1: different story, but it's the whole thing is just so

1304
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 1: it's it's it's I equate it to somebody drawing the

1305
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:07,400
Speaker 1: Mona Lisa on an etch a sketch and then shaking

1306
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,679
Speaker 1: the crap out of it and saying, put it back together. Yeah,

1307
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:15,040
Speaker 1: there's no way. Yeah, So we'll never really know until

1308
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:17,280
Speaker 1: until we've been a way back machine we can send

1309
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:23,800
Speaker 1: people back to to be there and hopefully don't get killed. Machine. Okay,

1310
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:25,559
Speaker 1: So there's there's one other thing that I want to

1311
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:31,280
Speaker 1: talk about that is a knock against Frank and his story,

1312
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:34,640
Speaker 1: and that is his last name, and the fact that

1313
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:38,400
Speaker 1: his last name is spelled a ba jillion different ways,

1314
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 1: and not by the Internet, mind you, but by him

1315
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:48,120
Speaker 1: over the years. So he spells his name in different

1316
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:52,599
Speaker 1: documentation over the years f I n k l E.

1317
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:57,840
Speaker 1: He then starts spelling it f I n k e L,

1318
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:03,560
Speaker 1: and then later on f I n c k e L.

1319
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:08,920
Speaker 1: So his spelling of his name Finkel to Finkel to

1320
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:13,960
Speaker 1: funkele like it goes all over the map, and that

1321
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't that doesn't make it feel like he knew

1322
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 1: what his own name was, Like, why would it why

1323
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:22,599
Speaker 1: would morph that one? It would suggest to me that, yeah,

1324
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:24,280
Speaker 1: it was, it was an alias from the get go.

1325
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:26,599
Speaker 1: He like, you know, he adopted it later, much later

1326
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 1: in life. It was never it was not his birth name. Yeah.

1327
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 1: And so if he has a couple of beers, you know,

1328
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:36,439
Speaker 1: I forget how to spell money. Yeah, I can only

1329
01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:38,840
Speaker 1: spell my name because you know, I've been haven't pounded

1330
01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 1: into my head since I was, you know, three years

1331
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:44,920
Speaker 1: old or something. I mean, I guess the argument could

1332
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:47,599
Speaker 1: be made that if he really, well, if the story

1333
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 1: of being an immigrant child is true, you know this again,

1334
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:54,360
Speaker 1: this happened to my family when they came over, they

1335
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:56,640
Speaker 1: changed their name on Alice Island. But you know, if

1336
01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:59,200
Speaker 1: you came over when you were six or seven, you've

1337
01:19:59,280 --> 01:20:02,160
Speaker 1: been used to spelling your name one way. Suddenly your

1338
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:04,839
Speaker 1: name is spelled a different way. Goes back and forth

1339
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:07,680
Speaker 1: all the time, you know, Or you decide like, you

1340
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:09,720
Speaker 1: know what, we're just going to start spelling it that

1341
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 1: old way again. You know, I want to go back

1342
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:13,439
Speaker 1: to my roots. That's fine, And then you realize that

1343
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:15,920
Speaker 1: was dumb. What you know, there are just a lot

1344
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:19,160
Speaker 1: of little things that can happen. I'm not saying they

1345
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:22,000
Speaker 1: did happen or they didn't happen, but I'm at least

1346
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 1: willing to say that there's some flexibility in there. And

1347
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: and remember today we sign our names a hell of

1348
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 1: a lot more then people did back the writing was

1349
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:39,519
Speaker 1: a luxury. I was going to say, yeah, there could

1350
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:42,160
Speaker 1: have also been some literacy things. Yes, I mean you

1351
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 1: you didn't write your name every day. If you use

1352
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 1: a credit card or go to someplace where they print

1353
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 1: out a receipt, and you have to say, I probably

1354
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:55,280
Speaker 1: sign my name a half dozen times a week without

1355
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:59,200
Speaker 1: even thinking about it. And if you go back in

1356
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 1: history hundred years ago. You signed your name maybe a

1357
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:07,559
Speaker 1: half dozen times a year. I have a friend whose

1358
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:11,559
Speaker 1: signature is an intentional misspelling of their name in order

1359
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:13,639
Speaker 1: to be able to say, like, I spell my name

1360
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 1: this way when I sign it, so if somebody were

1361
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 1: to take the signature, they would be able to say, well,

1362
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 1: it's spelled correctly, and I don't spell my name correctly.

1363
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:22,599
Speaker 1: That's a good idea, right, I mean, like it could

1364
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:25,320
Speaker 1: be something as crazy as that. I probably not, but

1365
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:28,040
Speaker 1: I totally it's Listen, I'm lucky I haven't gotten in

1366
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:31,360
Speaker 1: trouble with the US government because I write out my

1367
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:36,879
Speaker 1: middle name so infrequently that I actually invert the letters

1368
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:38,720
Speaker 1: in my I think we talked about this maybe if

1369
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:41,760
Speaker 1: that I invert the letters in my middle name and

1370
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:44,000
Speaker 1: my wife is like, wait, how did you spell it?

1371
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 1: You know that's not how it's spelled. Well, it turns

1372
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:50,080
Speaker 1: out I've been doing it wrong for this long, so

1373
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,240
Speaker 1: we're going to just run with it. So, Okay, you

1374
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:57,760
Speaker 1: guys got any any which which theory, which theory or

1375
01:21:57,800 --> 01:21:59,880
Speaker 1: which things in the theories do you like? I know

1376
01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 1: people enjoy that, so I want to know what you

1377
01:22:01,800 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 1: guys think. Well, I'm gonna go with he was. He

1378
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:07,840
Speaker 1: was there. Somebody, somebody had to survive that, right, I'm

1379
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 1: agreeing he was there. He was there, Okay. I actually

1380
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:13,559
Speaker 1: I'm inclined to say that he was not there. I

1381
01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:17,639
Speaker 1: really I it. If the story of why he came

1382
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:21,360
Speaker 1: forward is what it is, I think it's bogus and

1383
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:24,439
Speaker 1: I really feel like he might have been a We've

1384
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:28,640
Speaker 1: encountered these people connoissewer of a certain story, and he

1385
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 1: got ahead of himself and then once fame hit him,

1386
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 1: he couldn't retract it. So I I actually think that

1387
01:22:35,439 --> 01:22:39,040
Speaker 1: he probably wasn't there. I think he was. Okay, Well

1388
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:43,560
Speaker 1: you are, dear listeners, are welcome to share your opinions

1389
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 1: on this with us, and of course, if you were there,

1390
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:48,760
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you, especially really I do,

1391
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:51,880
Speaker 1: because holy hell, how old are you? But you are

1392
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:54,960
Speaker 1: welcome to share your opinions with us. There's all multitude

1393
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 1: of ways to do that. You could do it on

1394
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 1: social media because we have the Facebook page in the

1395
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:02,960
Speaker 1: Facebook group. If you want to do that on the

1396
01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 1: do it in the group. You got to join the group,

1397
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:07,160
Speaker 1: and to join the group, you got to answer the questions.

1398
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 1: They're very simple. I'm not actually going to provide you

1399
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:13,680
Speaker 1: the the answers because you already know them. They're that easy.

1400
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:15,840
Speaker 1: You can get a hold of us on Twitter, where

1401
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 1: we are Thinking Sideways. You can tweet your answer in

1402
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:21,559
Speaker 1: a very short, sporadic way, or you could just go

1403
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:24,160
Speaker 1: to Twitter and look at the really funny stuff that

1404
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:27,479
Speaker 1: we put up a k. A. Devon puts up. We're

1405
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:30,519
Speaker 1: also on Instagram. Don't send us a message on Instagram

1406
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:33,679
Speaker 1: because Instagram's about pictures, not words. But Devin also puts

1407
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 1: up funny stuff on Instagram, so funny. If you want

1408
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:43,240
Speaker 1: to actually write words to us in a few fewer

1409
01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:46,519
Speaker 1: than two d some odd characters, you can do so

1410
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:49,599
Speaker 1: through an email. You can send us an email at

1411
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:53,880
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com, where you can

1412
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 1: send us your thoughts on the story, thoughts on any

1413
01:23:57,040 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 1: story of story, suggestions, opinions of about the show. General feedback.

1414
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:04,640
Speaker 1: Nothing negative, because we don't like the negative, but we

1415
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 1: love the positive sentence. Whatever you want, I don't get

1416
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:15,679
Speaker 1: to feedback, so send us whatever you want at that

1417
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:18,759
Speaker 1: email address. By the way, if you want to read

1418
01:24:18,880 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 1: some of the research for this particular story, that will

1419
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:26,080
Speaker 1: be on our website, and that is Thinking Sideways podcast

1420
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:29,559
Speaker 1: dot com. We'll have links for this story as well

1421
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:33,120
Speaker 1: as all past stories. You can listen to the story there,

1422
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:35,439
Speaker 1: you can download it there. By the way, there's an

1423
01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:38,840
Speaker 1: episode list on the website. You can see chronologically all

1424
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 1: stories that we've done. You can also find links to

1425
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:44,919
Speaker 1: merch yes, because on the website we have both Zazzle

1426
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:47,599
Speaker 1: and Red Bubble links to them, so you can find

1427
01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:51,320
Speaker 1: the shirts and the mugs and the t shirts and hoods,

1428
01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:57,040
Speaker 1: night lights about we have all got how long ago

1429
01:24:57,080 --> 01:24:59,480
Speaker 1: did we make that? A long time, long time ago?

1430
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 1: Alo find it because it's awesome. By the way, I

1431
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:06,800
Speaker 1: talked about streaming and downloading off of the website, you

1432
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:10,160
Speaker 1: can also do that anywhere that you get podcasts. So

1433
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:12,960
Speaker 1: if you use Apple Podcast, you can do it there.

1434
01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:15,880
Speaker 1: If you use Stitcher, you can do it there. Google

1435
01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:18,479
Speaker 1: Play you can do it there. If you're on a

1436
01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:21,759
Speaker 1: site that allows you to leave a comment and a review,

1437
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:25,800
Speaker 1: please do so because that helps other folks find us.

1438
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:29,639
Speaker 1: Of course, you know, subscribe while you're there if you're

1439
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 1: on Stitcher, or actually if you're not on Stitcher, just

1440
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 1: so you know, we're gonna let you in a little deal.

1441
01:25:36,040 --> 01:25:40,599
Speaker 1: We're on Stitcher Premium if you're Stitcher Premium member, you'll

1442
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:44,000
Speaker 1: get the episodes four days early. You'll get the episodes

1443
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:47,839
Speaker 1: ad free, and by the way, we put out monthly

1444
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:51,519
Speaker 1: bonus content, So these things are all available to premium members.

1445
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:54,160
Speaker 1: If you're not a premium member and you want to

1446
01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:57,600
Speaker 1: become one, you can go to stitcher dot com, slash

1447
01:25:57,600 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 1: thinking sideways, use the prom a code sideways, and you

1448
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Speaker 1: get one month free plots, a whole bunch of other stuff. Now,

1449
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:08,479
Speaker 1: by the way, that month free that requires that you

1450
01:26:08,520 --> 01:26:11,160
Speaker 1: sign it for the twelve month plan. If you do

1451
01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:14,160
Speaker 1: the monthly plan, well I'm afraid it doesn't take effect.

1452
01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:18,120
Speaker 1: So just so you know how that works. Uh, that's

1453
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:21,840
Speaker 1: really all that we've got. So I think that we

1454
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 1: need to build a little defensive fort out of cats,

1455
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:29,200
Speaker 1: because these cats in this house. No no, no no, I listen,

1456
01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:32,720
Speaker 1: they're cats. They love to just lay in kind of

1457
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:35,439
Speaker 1: a pile because that's what cats do. So we're gonna

1458
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:38,680
Speaker 1: hide behind those cats. It's cat fort. Okay, you're not

1459
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:41,120
Speaker 1: playing along, dude. Dude, they're my cats. You can't shoot

1460
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:42,760
Speaker 1: at my cats. I just told you we're not gonna

1461
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:46,960
Speaker 1: shoot your cats. They like to pile up at them.

1462
01:26:47,200 --> 01:26:49,559
Speaker 1: It's it's it's cat pile. Okay, Devin, you got anything

1463
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:52,599
Speaker 1: to share. I'm gonna go hide in the horse. Yeah. Yeah,

1464
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:54,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go hide behind a car door that always

1465
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:58,840
Speaker 1: stopped bullets. All right, Thank you Hans so Though, Thank

1466
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:02,040
Speaker 1: you Kiana Reeve, and we will talk to you people

1467
01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:05,360
Speaker 1: next week. To Luke, folks, it was. It was Luke,

1468
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 1: not on