WEBVTT - School of Golf Architecture: Collaboration with Andy Staples 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.600 The fried egg requires a different technique. What you need 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.760 to do is actually square the face so they'll dig 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.440 down underneath that bad lie and propel that ball right 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:11.200 out onto the green. 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:14.239 Here's the thing. Playing out of a buried lion of 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:16.759 bunker is completely different than playing out of a night 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.760 clean lion of greenside bunker. You need to be aggressive 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:21.480 on any show. 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:24.079 Weather it's sitting cleanly for its fried egg. 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:25.840 Well, we've all faithd it. 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.120 The dreaded fried egg not to be feared, though, it's 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:37.720 actually a pretty easy shot to hit. Welcome to the 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:43.280 School of Golf Architecture, Episode four collaboration. So the first 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.280 three episodes of the School of Golf Architecture covered the 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:50.200 relationship between a course and its sight. The discussion often 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.440 wandered into philosophical territory, and I'm into that kind of 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.200 thing obviously, But for this installment, I wanted to get practical. 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:02.640 How exactly do golf courses get built. There's a tendency 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.000 when discussing the stories behind golf courses to focus on 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:11.040 the individual architect. We lionize figures like Harry Colt, Seth Rayner, 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.039 Donald Ross, and Pete Dye, and we see the projects 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.640 they work on as essentially theirs. We speak of Mackenzie's 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:23.360 Cypress Point or Doak's Pacific Dunes on the flip side. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.240 When a course doesn't turn out well, we know who 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.520 to blame, but the truth is that it takes many 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:36.399 more people than the lead architect to create a golf course. First, 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:39.600 they are the owners. These may include a developer, or 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.800 a general manager, or a green committee chair, or all 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.440 the above. Usually a superintendent will be in the mix too. 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.720 The owners may initiate the project and their vision may 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.960 animate it, but their role is often behind the scenes 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.640 and not very well understood. Then there are the builders. 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:00.040 Among them are skilled shapers, some of whom travel the 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.960 world with architects like Bill Corr, Tom Doak and Gil 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:08.079 Hants laboring over bunker edges and green contours. Less celebrated 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.480 are the construction companies that do grading, drainage, irrigation, grassing, 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:17.600 and other unromantic tasks. Some design firms use these contractors 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.320 for more specialized shaping work, others make a point of 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.640 not doing so. In the middle of it all is 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.320 the architect who appeases the owners and manages the builders 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.600 while making sure that the course doesn't feel like it 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:35.160 was designed by committee, even if it was. In other words, 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.080 to be good at golf architecture, you have to be 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:43.040 good at collaboration. I didn't know much about the collaborative 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.880 aspects of golf course construction, so I called up Andy Staples. 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.359 Andy is uniquely thoughtful about the practical side of the business. 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.480 He's done excellent work at courses as different as Sandhollow Resort, 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.960 Meadowbrook country Club, and rock Wind Community Links. Right now, 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.079 he's working on a master plan for Olympia Fields Country 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:07.600 Club outside Chicago. In talking to Andy, I discovered how 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.640 broad a topic collaboration and golf course design is. We 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:15.280 discussed how he works with owners, contractors, and shapers. We 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:19.280 discussed what design build means and how people often misunderstand it. 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:23.440 We discussed whether architects get too much credit. In fact, 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.120 we discussed much more than I was able to include 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.000 in this episode. You can find some extras from our 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:39.360 conversation on the Frida Egg dot com. 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.600 And so, to me, that collaboration around around the three 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.920 equal parts of owner, architect and contractor is so important. 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.000 So you would say that there's kind of like a 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.320 triangle of collaboration. 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.920 Yeah, I see that exactly because without you know, without 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.280 the architect building himself, there's the need to have him there. So, yeah, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.560 the owner is on he's the one that he kind 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.520 of puts this all together, and generally it's his vision, 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.880 but he needs an architect, he needs a contractor to 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:09.080 see that vision too. 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.320 Fruition, let's start with the ownership side of it. Working 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:17.359 with clients of various kinds, could you describe a typical 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.599 relationship that you might have with an owner. I know 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.160 they're a variety of owners, but what is that relationship 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:25.120 and back and forth? 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:29.640 Usually, like, generally speaking, I'm not dealing with just one 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.440 quote unquote owner. I have done that and that Those 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:34.320 are great when you just have one point of contact 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:36.279 and one guy cut in the checks. But you know, 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:40.080 typically there's committees, there's multiple people that I report to, 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.960 whether it's a master planing committee or green chairman or 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:48.120 a general manager superintendent. So typically it's kind of a 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:49.960 revolving door. And it's actually funny. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:50.360 You know. 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.520 One of the conversations I just had today is, Okay, 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:54.960 I have a conversation with the superintendent. I'm got to 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:56.800 hang up and I'm gonna say Okay, let's reach out 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.480 to the general manager and have the same conversation, the 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.360 same sub matter, but in a different way. You know, Okay, 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.800 mister general managers, here's here's what's going on. So let 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.000 me just you know, nothing's nothing's wrong. Just I just 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.120 want to keep you updated. And so it's really a 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.440 it's a dance of personalities. 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:12.520 Is really what it is. 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.200 So I nine times out of ten, I'm dealing with 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.400 multiple people, and that that's really indicative of how we're chosen. 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:20.760 I mean when we first hear of jobs, you know, 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:22.800 whether you're on a list of two or three or 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.680 you I was selected out of fifteen people on a 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.839 project as well, So you know, there's always multiple people 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:30.800 that when the project gets serious, they want to get 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.680 involved and so typically that will dwindle to you know, 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.440 three or five people. But there's always multiple people, I 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:38.600 would say, on every project. 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:44.800 So you mentioned the kind of architect selection process. How 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:48.000 does that usually go for you? This is something of 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.200 a mystery to me, actually, how architects really go about 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.040 getting jobs. Maybe it's even mysterious to a few architects 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:55.520 out there. 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.080 You know that we're all still trying to figure that out. 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.320 You know, you can't do enough good work and have 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.520 enough of a reputation at all in your in your 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:06.400 in your profession. So what we all work to is 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.240 just to get some form of a of a name 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.560 recognition so that when a project comes up in an area, 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.279 or a type of project by maybe an old architect 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.000 or a sustainability project, so that they think of me. 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.000 And so it's arranged from being on a list where 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.440 I'll get a call from a superintendent or a committee 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.440 member saying, hey, we're compiling a list of guys, want 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.440 to check and see you know if you are available. 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.440 Are you interested? This is you know, ask me some 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:33.960 questions and I'll let you know. What we're trying to 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.280 do is see if you're interested. So I would say 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.640 that's probably half of my projects are are now kind 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.840 of inbound, and then there's others that are just flat 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:44.719 out coal calls. I got a job here in Phoenix 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.120 not too long ago, where you know, I have a 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.120 guy that helps me call here in my office, I say, 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.360 here's a list. Call these guys, see if there's an 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.520 interest in Sure enough, they were just putting together an 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.240 RFP for architects, and you know, we just happened to 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.120 grab them and we ended up getting the job. 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:06.120 Yeah, obviously the golf construction industry has contracted in recent years. 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:11.160 There are just fewer big new build projects. How do 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.800 you think that general kind of contraction of the industry 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:19.400 or the decline in new projects has changed the way 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.640 that architects connect with jobs. 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.480 You kind of got to understand when we go back 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.000 and we talk about how we got here, the construction 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:32.280 technology and construction industry really started to explode when the 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.760 certain things like USGA greens and irrigation systems. You know, 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.320 coming out of the fifties and the sixties, golf got 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.040 real complicated and now you needed it wasn't just pushing 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.080 up greens, and it wasn't just doing things that maybe 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.600 maybe rudimentally you were doing before. And so when the 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:51.040 golf boom happened, not only was there a lot of projects, 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.720 there was a lot of complexities that we had to 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.880 really worry about. Who was actually installing these Like a 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.840 USGA green was new for a lot of years. You know, 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:01.920 irrigation systems are knew. We want to have somebody that 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.440 understood how to do those things. And so now with 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.080 the contraction we've had a chance to just sit back 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.920 and breathe and say, Okay, well there are less projects. 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.760 Now I get to spend the time in the job, 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:16.480 in the field, on the job, working to craft the project. 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.920 And I would say there's definitely a greater appreciation for 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.200 understanding the architect needs. You can spend more time in 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.240 the field and be able to find the guys they 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:26.960 want to work on their projects. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.040 So you get to spend more time in the field 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.120 when there are fewer projects. I would imagine you also 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.680 get to spend more time communicating with these different points 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:40.760 of contact at the club or or who are associated 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.320 with the development project. Do you see a big part 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.680 of your job as not only being able to communicate 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.080 with those folks, but trying to influence them in some 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:55.280 way or even educate them about what you're trying to 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.240 do on the golf course or what the golf course 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:57.760 could be. 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.160 For the most part, this is their first project, probably 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:04.240 going to be their last project, and they don't have 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.800 any idea, So they're actually selecting an architect in part 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.240 to help them through that process. So they want to 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.600 know what it is that you think needs to be done. 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:14.840 We want to know how much that costs. You know, 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:16.680 they don't know much of anything going into it. So 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:18.320 a lot of what it is that you do through 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.480 the whole process is actually living up to the things 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:22.320 you said. From the very beginning. We talked a little 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.800 bit about how you're what's typical in the selection process. 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.600 More times now than ever, you're giving owners a general 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.600 idea of how much time it's going to take. You're 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:33.760 going to talk about general ideas of costs. You're going 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.760 to give them ideas. I mean, my gosh, we're going 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.480 through process now where you actually do full on renderings 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.880 and before and after images to just get the job. 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.480 And so then you get the job, and now you 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.600 have to actually live up to what you said. So now, 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.920 if you told them that you could get your project done, 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.800 you know from August fifteenth to November first, you better 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.520 armwell be ready to do that. So when you're actually 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.240 out there building now, now you're living up to the 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:01.319 actually doing what you said you wanted you know you 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.319 were going to do, and managing all those pieces and 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.240 making sure the contractor is the right contractor and is 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.440 staying on budget, on schedule, and then you know, updating 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:11.920 the owner along the way. 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:17.320 Yeah, it seems like the really thorough planning that you 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.400 need to do for a job today in the one way. 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.720 In one way, it kind of shackles you to executing 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.240 that plan, but also it gives you something to fall 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:30.520 back on to say, hey, you know, this is the 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.240 idea that we've had from the beginning, and it allows 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.920 you to kind of get your design ideas out there 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:37.280 right from the beginning. 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.720 Yeah, I mean, there's it's certainly a balance of first 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.600 impressions and what you're thinking that the creative aspects of 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:44.080 what we're doing. 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:45.560 Often, I think with a lot. 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:47.960 Of us, we have those creative ideas the moment we 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.040 step out on the golf course for the first time 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.319 or how many times you've been there. And then let's 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:53.960 say you get hired and you go through a design plan, 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.360 almost always you come back to some of the very 0:10:56.360 --> 0:11:00.240 first things that you thought. Certain vistas certain tweak the 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.640 routing or a different type of bunker strategy or style. 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.160 So generally speaking, I think, you know, I try, I 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.679 personally try to keep the planning work on a on 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.080 a top level, like, Okay, we're going to generally have 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.760 this style of greens, the bunkers are going to be 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.080 grass faced, they're going to be generally about sixty of them, 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.200 and they're going to be about a thousand square feet apiece, 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.840 and you know exactly where they're going to be. We're 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:23.720 going to massage them in the field. But here's a 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:25.800 rendering that kind of gives you the reasons for why 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.960 we're doing it. And I always leave room for that 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.160 kind of interpretation in the field because that's that's where 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.800 a lot of that creative magic, if you will, happens, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.240 and you know, that's where this idea of design build 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.800 really starts to you know, it's there's a whole process 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.560 to tee up the project. Probably eighty percent of the 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:46.439 project is all office and presentation and buying, and then 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:48.600 a good portion of you know, twenty percent of the 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.640 actual work ends up getting out in the field, but 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:52.640 it's almost one hundred percent of what everyone sees at 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:54.560 that point. And so I always leave open for that 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.040 type of massaging and that type of ad living, if 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:57.400 you will. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.960 Well, that gives us a good opening to talk about 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.320 in a little more detail the process in the field. 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.920 What does design build mean to you? 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.840 In the truest sense, To me, design build means that 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.240 an owner is open to not knowing all of the questions, 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.760 answers to all the questions. They have a general budget, 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.720 they have a general timeline. But you've got a group 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.800 of guys that know how to do certain things that 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.360 you need done. And you begin and we all participate 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.120 in the construction, and then we work for as long 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:30.960 as we need to and we're done, and we make 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.599 the adjustments along the way. We're not focused on absolutely 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.720 having to have everything done at a certain time. You know, 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:42.679 to me, the construction industry went very wrong when we 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:47.120 started to focus on cheap, fast, and good. You know, 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.240 cheap and fast, but it's generally not going to be good. 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.160 If it's good and it's fast, it's not going to 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.960 be cheap. You can have two of those three. But 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.040 our industry has done a really good job of trying 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.679 to do all three, and so contractors race to that. 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:02.280 I mean, I talked earlier about the fact that the 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.280 construction technology advanced so quickly. These contractors were there to 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.400 do it, and they they could do it for generally 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:10.439 a reasonable number, and they could do it quickly, and 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.199 for the most part. You know, when I say good architecturally, 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.160 probably not very good, but at least it was structurally sound. 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.839 And now design build eliminates all of that. And I 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.840 think once you eliminate a schedule, everybody has a budget. 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.200 But once you eliminate the schedule and we realize that 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.079 the creative aspects are meant to be an art form. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.720 Golf architecture is an art form and not a schedule, 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.440 and it's not a budget, then that's where the truest 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:35.679 sense of design build comes in. 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:40.960 Sure. Now, what do you think people often misunderstand about 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:41.679 design build. 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.800 Well, they assume that there is only one way and 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:46.760 that if you're not on the architect is not on 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.240 the bulldozer, then it must not be design build and 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:50.720 when in fact, a lot of these guys that are 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.280 on their own dozers are working right alongside some of 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:57.120 these major contractors, and so you know, it all now 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.480 is a matter of perception of what it actually is. 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:01.360 Let's be honest, at the end of the day, I 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.840 don't think anyone really cares whether it's design build or 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.520 design bid or through a contractor drawing plans. They would 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.280 want to know if it's a good project, and if 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.719 it's a good golf course, then you know, obviously you're 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:11.440 doing something right. 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.000 Yeah, And that's such an interesting answer because there's this 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.360 tendency and you know, I'll raise my hand and say 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:23.440 that I've thought kind of lazily in this way myself 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:28.440 before that there is a dichotomy between design build and 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:32.040 design bid that anytime you involve a contractor, you're kind 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.400 of violating the purity of the design build process. And 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.760 it sounds like it's it's much more gray than that. 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.920 So what does it mean to involve a contractor? How 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.840 do you work with contractors? And again, what do you 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.760 think people misunderstand about the involvement of contractors in golf 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:50.760 course projects. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.040 I'd be hard pressed to understand any golf course project 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.040 today it doesn't have some form of a golf course 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.400 contractor involved with it. So to me, unless it's as 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.680 smallest a projects, a small green complex or some bunkers 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.320 or some te's, there's going to be a contractor involved. 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.080 And the biggest pivot that's happened in our industry now 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.040 is that there are more and more people coming that 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.640 understand the game of golf, and one of the biggest 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:18.960 miss numbers I think that has happened with golf course 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.320 contractors is that they all of a sudden they don't 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.160 care about golfer. They're They're not somebody that ends up, 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.320 you know, appreciating what you're now. Granted, there's a lot 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.720 of golf course contractors that have no idea what a 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:31.120 bunker is or what a green is. 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:32.680 They're just on a piece of equipment. 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:34.720 But now more than ever, there's guys that are coming 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.680 into this field that understand that these guys are passionate 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.640 about the game of golf and are setting out to 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.680 build golf courses. And I think one of the things 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.320 that is probably pretty true in the past and not 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.200 so much anymore, is that these golf course builders just 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:49.800 looked like it, you know, they looked at as an 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.080 assembly line and once they once the train started moving, 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.440 every train car had its role and it just went 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:58.320 until it was done. It was really hard to get 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:00.920 that train going, But once that train was moving, it 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.680 is really hard to slow it down. And the architect's 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:05.880 job is to actually slow that train down, to stop 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.040 and say, hey, listen, this is a golf course we're building. 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.400 We need to do some tinkering here. This isn't quite right, 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.560 and I don't care if your schedule says it's going 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.240 that fastest screen is not right yet. And that's why 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.320 I've always tried to manage my projects is to allow 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:23.160 the contractor to do the heavy lifting, the high liability work, 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:27.120 the irrigation work, the grading, the drainage, and then have 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.520 at least one, if not multiple guys in there that 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:32.680 are there with the right amount of time doing the 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.040 specialty work, the feature work, the actual creative work, the 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.320 artistic work, the stuff that people love to play and 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.040 what makes golf courses good. 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:45.520 Do you think that contractors have adjusted recently in the 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:50.720 same way that architects have to a smaller industry, Our 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:56.160 contractor is starting to operate more along a kind of 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.320 Each project is unique model, and let's spend the time 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:00.200 to get it right. 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:00.840 You know. 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.400 That's a that's a great question, and I would tell 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:07.560 you that that the industry is segmented. The aspect that 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.760 has gotten the architecture and has understood that architecture matters. 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:14.760 These old clubs matter. These are guys that have aligned 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.360 themselves with the top architects and the top clubs. They 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.560 charge a good fair wage for it, and they set 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:26.639 the schedule and celebrate the architecture celebrate the quality and 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.280 they get paid to do that. Whereas you know, post recession, 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.399 you have an entire group of other people because you know, 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.720 the bigger a lot of contractors have gone by the wayside, 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.560 and the bigger contractors have gotten bigger, and now those 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:41.000 guys are numbers games and they're just yeah, they understand 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:42.959 that the architecture part of this is not has not 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.960 gone away, so they're appreciative of it, and they now 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.800 more so than ever. When I first started selecting my 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:50.840 own shapers, they were like, no, we don't do that, No, 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.920 we don't do that. But now you it's hard pressed 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.840 to find another contractor that doesn't allow an architect to 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.000 bring his own shaper. So that's a little bit of 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:00.800 a tweak, but it's still numbers game. 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.280 Do you find yourself often working with the same set 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:07.840 of shapers to do some of that finished work that 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:09.360 you're talking about, Yeah. 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.800 Yeah, absolutely. There's nothing like being able to go up 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.760 to a particular bunker or a concept and just say, hey, listen, 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.880 this green angles from right to left. There's a bunker front, left, 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:21.920 there's maybe a roll off in the back, and a 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.800 couple of bunkers. I'm thinking of this hole at Royal Melbourne, 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:26.960 or you know, I did this at San Holo and 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.199 then they go build it. That to me is the 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:32.199 truest sense of the freedom that you get when you 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.960 get some familiarity with the guys you're working with. It's 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.800 so frustrating when you get a contractor and you say, hey, 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.560 have you ever been to the old course at Saint Andrews. 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.119 Have you ever been to Shinnecock? 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.439 What's that? You know? So you know? 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.400 And those are real conversations you have with shapers are like, well, yeah, 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:51.959 you know, I've been in that bunker, actually made par 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:54.359 from that bunker and it's okay, perfect, not quite as deep, 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:56.200 but go ahead and go with that concept. 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.680 How do you go about collaborating with people in the 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.919 field old who maybe don't have the reference points that 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.479 you would expect or haven't worked on one of your 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:09.800 projects before. Does it just mean that you're more involved 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.480 on a granular level with the work that they're doing 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.800 out there? You know, what's your approach? 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:15.920 Yeah? 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.840 I think if you're we know when it's right and 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:20.479 we know when it's wrong. And you know, if you've 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:22.320 got something started and it's just not going in the 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.160 right direction. The only way to do it is to actually, 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.240 in some cases get on the piece of equipment and 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.399 do it yourself, or just stand there and wait for 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:34.000 them to get it right. And I think that's where 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.440 the time of this new mentality, this opportunity to spend 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.240 more time, really is important. You know, a good side 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.720 visits to me is anywhere from two to three days. 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.200 And you know, I find too that if you're there, 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:47.040 there's certain parts of the golf course that you can 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:48.879