1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: This is Master's in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have a special guest. 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: His name is Jason Schwartz, and he is the president 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: of Wilshire Funds Management and Wilshire Analytics, a company that 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: has been around since ninety two and is perhaps best 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: known for its famous index, the Wilshire five thousand, really 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: the first total market index that existed. Wilsher is a 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: fairly substantial company that advises on a ton of assets 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: and manages a decent sum of assets themselves. But they 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: are a far more interesting and complicated firm that I 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: had any idea prior to doing some research for this conversation. Uh. 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: They are involved in all sorts of really fascinating things, 13 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: and I think the average person or even the person 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: who works in finance may not really be all that 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: familiar uh with what Wilshire actually does. And I found 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,279 Speaker 1: this conversation to be quite fascinating. So, with no further ado, 17 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 1: my interview of Jason Schwartz of will Share fund Management. 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: My special guest this week is Jason Schwartz. He is 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: the president of Wilshire Funds Management and will Share Analytics, 20 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: where he has worked since two thousand and five. He 21 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: has an A bian government from Hamilton College and an 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: MBA from the Marshall School of Business at USC. Will 23 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: Shire is probably best known for the Wilshire five thousand 24 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: stock index. They advise on approximately a trillion dollars in 25 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: institutional assets, another hundred and eighty billion dollars in broker 26 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: dealer and r i A assets, and their mutual fund 27 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: and other related businesses have approximately fifty billion dollars in 28 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: assets under management. Jason Schwartz, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thanks very 29 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: great to be here. Um So, I was really fascinated 30 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: about talking to you because, like many people, I'm familiar 31 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: with Willshire due to the five thousand index, and we'll 32 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: get into that index a little later. But as I 33 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: was doing a little reading about the farm before our conversation, 34 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: I was really astonished at the history, the various business 35 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: lines you you guys have. It's it's really a fascinating company. 36 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about your background and how 37 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: did you find your way to Wilshire. Sure so, um 38 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: I uh, I grew up here in New York and 39 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: you know it was was exposed to finance, um investment management. 40 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: I had an early kind of internship at at an 41 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: R I a a multi family office here that was 42 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: engaged in some you know, manager research, manager selection activities. 43 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: So I had a bit of a uh some early 44 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: exposure to to that, you know, being able to sit 45 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: across the tabble from uh you know, portfolio managers and 46 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: investment managers and really really interesting um. But I, you know, 47 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: like a lot of young people, I I sort of 48 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: had a number of um uh you know, career experiences 49 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: in my twenties before I went to business school. I 50 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: did a little bit of sales and marketing, a little 51 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: bit of technology, a little bit of finance, and I 52 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: got to business school. Uh and I and I chose 53 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: to go to uh spend two years in southern California 54 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: at USC not nothing worse weather in the world, you know, 55 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: and and it you know, as a twenty six year 56 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: old it it seemed like a nice place to to 57 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: park for a couple of years. But uh, you know, 58 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: as a as a you know, as a New Yorker, 59 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: I would then you know, immediately return right. It was 60 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: not a place to stay. Um and you know, after 61 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: about three months, uh there felt like, um, you know, 62 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: this place certainly isn't isn't so bad? And and I'll 63 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: say that's really where um we all have sort of 64 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: pivotal moments. And and I was uh started business school 65 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: in two thousand and one, right, so post kind of 66 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: dot com bubble, and uh, you know, job market was 67 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: still was still tough, and you know, after business school, 68 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: I just needed a job, right And and was um, 69 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: I think like a lot of young people, was you know, 70 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: cast a wide net and wash you know, looking for jobs. 71 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: I would say not necessarily in in my areas of passion, 72 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: per se um and and and um. In my second 73 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: year of business school, Barry we uh I was I 74 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: was part of this um seminar and applied portfolio management, 75 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: which allowed us to kind of manage a portion of 76 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: the school's endowment and really get kind of a taste 77 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: for for managing assets, managing money. And as part of that, 78 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: we were able to visit a number of of different 79 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: investment organizations up and down the West Coast. And one 80 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: of the firms that we met was Dimensional Fund Advisors 81 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: d f A, which if you've ever been to their 82 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: office in Santa Monica, they had at the time they 83 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: had the top uh two floors of this gorgeous ability 84 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: looking right out at the ocean, and we're being hosted 85 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: by a number of folks at at at d f A, 86 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: and there's maybe ten of us, and we're sitting in 87 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: this boardroom looking out over the ocean. It's maybe eighty degrees. 88 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: The beach is packed with spectacular And I reached to 89 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: my friend who's sitting next to me, Craig Greenwald, and 90 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: I said, Craig, I don't care what I do. I 91 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: just want to work in this building. And so, you know, 92 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,679 Speaker 1: flash forward two years. I was working as a management 93 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: consultant because I just needed a job after business school 94 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: and that seemed like a respectable thing to do. And um, 95 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: I was still, you know, sending out resumes and uh, 96 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,559 Speaker 1: two years after business school, I you know, i'd probably 97 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: sent Wilshire um a bunch of resumes. Had done some 98 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: research and it turned out willsher was in the same 99 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: building as d f A and so and so is 100 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: that where you were still working or has the headquarters 101 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: since moved? We are still there, and so you get 102 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: you get that actual view that you were every single 103 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: moving for. And I'm more impressed that USC actually gave 104 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: their NBA students part of the endowments and run How 105 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: how did that work out? That was great? I mean 106 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: that was you know, I UM owe a huge debt 107 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: of gratitude to that program and the UM professor Supin 108 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: cou who worked with us. It was a great, a 109 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: great opportunity and UM we we were divided into a 110 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: few different teams. UM there was like a MidCap group, 111 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,119 Speaker 1: there was a large cap group. You know, some folks 112 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: in the community had had donated money for us to 113 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: UM you know, kind of mess around with an experiment 114 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: with you mean, separate from the usual alumni donation to 115 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: the foundation. A separate pool of money was raised for 116 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: this is for the NBA students to sort of get 117 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: their feet wet correct managing real asset. That's right, that's wow, 118 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: that's fast. What was the performance like? Oh man, it 119 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: was you know, that's a long time ago Thererea's I 120 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: would say that was not an easy period to be 121 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: an investor, right after the dot COM's, right before the 122 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: financial core certainly, right, I mean it was it was 123 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, we were still we had all through the nineties, right, 124 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: were raised on you know, go go growth stocks and technology, 125 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: and so it was a completely different you know, paradigm shift. Uh. 126 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: You know, value was was obviously doing well, um, but 127 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: small caps and growth were not. You know. But what 128 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: was interesting is is for me, UM, it brought to 129 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: the forefront the different roles really within investment organizations. And 130 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: so interestingly, I, you know, had at that point developed 131 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: a facility with numbers and was you know, kind of 132 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: studying the space and and all of the you know, 133 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: modern portfolio theory and uh, but I, you know, had 134 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: realized that where my passion really um was at at 135 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: that point was was not so much being an analyst 136 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: in the trenches with the numbers every day all day. 137 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: But but if I could, gosh, if I could get 138 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: a role that allowed me to engage with clients and 139 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: and and do some of the other things related to 140 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,679 Speaker 1: working in this industry, wouldn't that be great. Let's talk 141 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: a little bit about the product you're probably best known for, 142 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: the Wilshire five thousand, which contains these days about thirty 143 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: five hundred stocks. Is that right? Why doesn't the Wilshire 144 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: five thousand have five thousand stocks? So, um, you're you're 145 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: correct that there's just under thirty five hundred stocks today 146 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: in the Wilshire five thousand. UH. The Wilshire five thousand 147 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: was UM created in nineteen seventy four, and at the 148 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: time it was the first really broad based measurement of 149 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: the US equity market. And still today when people refer 150 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: to the total you know, US stock market, they're often 151 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: referencing the Wilshire five thousand. So UM, you know, it 152 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: was a really important innovation for US, UH dating back 153 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: to the to the seventies. And and the reason um 154 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: there was roughly five thousand securities when the Wilshire five 155 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: thousand was launched. UH, the peak was UM as you 156 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: probably know about seventy five hundred securities UH in right, 157 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: So that was you know, in an environment where companies 158 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: were racing to go public right to say the least, 159 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: to say the least, and so uh you know, post 160 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: dot Com crash, there were a number of de listings. 161 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: There were companies that clearly went out of business, so 162 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: that dramatically lowered the count delistings. A lot of listed 163 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: stocks ended up going pink sheets and boarding boards, and 164 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: especially the micro I think there was some thousand or 165 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: two thousand microcaps that fell off fell off the radar, 166 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: So there really aren't five thousand investable companies to put 167 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: in the in the five thousand even if you wanted 168 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,119 Speaker 1: to write and I think the other the other. Um. 169 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: You know, key theme in today's environment really is around 170 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: private capital, right, so companies are staying private for longer 171 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: UM and are able to do so without needing to 172 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: go to the public equity markets to raise capital. So 173 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: so there is you know, the the I p O 174 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: environment has not been what it was in the nineties, 175 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: and so therefore there are roughly publicly traded securities today. 176 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: Look at look at companies like uber and we Works 177 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: and giant multibillion dollar firms years ago, they never would 178 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: have been able to get that large, to say the least. 179 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: So so let's talk a little bit about UM what 180 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: your assets look like and what the company actually does. 181 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: So you have we were talking to all, you have 182 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: about a hundred and eighty billion dollars in assets under management. 183 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: How does that break down? Is that stocks, bonds, non 184 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: public assets? That what's the mix of that? So UM 185 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: we UM we have about a hundred eighty billion dollars 186 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: in assets that we advise on for what we call 187 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: financial intermediaries, and these are organizations financial institutions that ultimately 188 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: serve individual investors. And so this this really for us, 189 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: for for our organization, stems from the work that we've 190 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: done in the institutional space. So um, you know, we 191 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: talked about the Wilshore five thousand. The Wilshur's first decade 192 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies was really as a as one 193 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: of the early pioneers in applying technology to solve investment 194 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: management problems, and so um, the WISH five. I have 195 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: to interrupt you at this point and point out that 196 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 1: your founder is literally a rocket scientist who was that 197 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: JPL before forming Uh will shure that's right, Yeah, that's right. 198 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: So that's that is a really important it's a great story, 199 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: but it's also a really important part of our heritage. 200 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: So Dennis Tito, Uh Wilshre's founder, currently our our chairman 201 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: and CEO, still active in the business. Uh was a 202 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: JPL and was was an aerospace engineer. And this was 203 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: at a time where the most powerful computer technology, UH 204 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: was resident NASA JPL where they were, you know, trying 205 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: to figure out how to how to program the trajectory 206 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: of of unmanned spacecraft. And so as the space race 207 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: was winding down and that was really Dennis's calling. He 208 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: was called to, uh to participate in that um so 209 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: late sixties, early seventies, Dennis was was thinking about how 210 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: to transition and and you know, ultimately how to make 211 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: some money and and really recognized at an early point 212 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: that intersection of investment technology UM or information technology and 213 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: and finance. And so the first product that Wilshare launched 214 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two was was one of the first 215 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: commercially viable ways to calculate an equity beta. And so 216 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: that was nine seventy two. And take you for granted, 217 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: you could do the log onto a Bloomberg or even 218 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: use a website and generate half the data points. We 219 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: just take for granted that didn't exist back and this 220 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: was the stuff of I mean, this predates me um uh. 221 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: This was the stuff of slide rules and and and 222 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: you know really sort of you know, uh, hard computational 223 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: math and so applying really strong math to solve investment challenges. 224 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: Um So, the first you know, commercially viable way to 225 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: measure an equity beta, which became our kind of multi 226 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: factor risk attribution model which exist today. By the way, 227 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: multi factor attribution risk model. Right, so you're trying to 228 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: figure out what is it it is that's actually driving 229 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: a market's gains? How do you attribute that to to 230 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: what specific elements? In fact, that's exactly right. So if 231 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: you are able to decompose a manager's return into its 232 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: component pieces and isolate, you know, all sorts of different factors, um, 233 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: you can basically separate was this manager good at picking 234 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: stocks or was this manager Benett fitting from an overweight 235 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: to energy or technology or momentum or certain just really 236 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: leveraging up and taking a lot of risks or a 237 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: lot of right. So so it's it's for us the 238 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: essence ultimately of investment management. And we talk about how 239 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: we got there starts with with the foundation and risk management, 240 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 1: and so those tools didn't exist, so will surebuild them 241 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: through the seventies and you know other tools like UM. 242 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 1: You know, one of the first asset liability models for 243 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: pension funds in order to match the future liabilities and 244 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: obligations to their current portfolio. Is that that's exactly what'sing 245 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: that all these things we take for granted did not 246 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: exist at one point in time, and not a hundred 247 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: years ago. We're talking thirty five years. That's right, and 248 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: and and and the pace of change continues to be 249 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, rapid, but as much as uh, the business 250 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: has changed clearly um, you know, risk and the ability 251 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: to measure UM and present that information is critically important. 252 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: So this was this was Wilshur's first decade and was 253 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, really known as a as a pioneering provider 254 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: of these types of risk applications. In one we we 255 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: launched one of the first full service US consulting businesses. 256 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: And and the goal here was to not just provide tools, 257 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: but to provide advice to pension funds and foundations and 258 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: endowments to help them apply some of these tools, asset 259 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: liability management, to create acid allocation policies, to help them 260 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: select managers, to help them build their portfolios. UM. And 261 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: So this is this, this is when you think of UM, 262 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: the work that investment consultants do in helping pension funds 263 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: uh you know, create uh you know investment programs designed 264 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: to serve their participants really in perpetuity. Wilshire has been 265 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: at the forefront of that business for UM for almost 266 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: three decades. Wow, quite fascinating. Let's talk a little bit 267 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: about how the business has changed at will Share over 268 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: the past, um a couple of decades. You've been there 269 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: for fifteen years. You've certainly seen a lot of changes. 270 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: And we were discussing previously how the firm just really 271 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: began as a technology and analytics company. How has the 272 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: past decade or two changed your business model? Sure? Well, 273 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: I I joined Wilshare in two thousand five into what 274 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: was at the time of relatively new, um new business 275 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: that Wilsher had created called Wilshire Funds Management and UM, 276 00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, this was in its early days, and that 277 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: the idea behind Wilsher Funds Management was to take the 278 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: firm's institutional expertise, it's risk management capabilities and provide investment 279 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: advisory solutions designed really for financial advisors and their individual 280 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: investor clients. And so UM, you know, our first clients 281 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: at at the time and we only had a handful 282 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: were insurance companies, UM and some broker dealers that we're 283 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: looking for the same types of multi asset, multi manager 284 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: kind of risk managed solutions that that you know, our 285 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: pension fund clients were were able to to, you know, 286 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: to have. So that means not just going out and 287 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: buying a mutual fund. But having access to a suite 288 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: of different different managers and different asset classes, is that right? Right? 289 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: So it's it's you know, when we look at the 290 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: things that institutional investors UM do well, and they tend 291 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: to invest in a lot of things, a lot of 292 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: asset classes, right, they own a lot of asset classes. 293 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: They're highly diversified. UM. They typically implement those views with 294 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: managers UM also now increasingly you know, passive components of 295 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: those portfolios UM, and they blend everything together in a 296 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: way that's designed to to really optimize a particular outcome. 297 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: Financial advisors, you know, in many cases and most cases 298 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: are doing the same thing. Uh, certainly those that are 299 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: using funds or fund products or ETFs to build portfolios. 300 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: And so you know, the market has been shifting to UM. 301 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: You know that of of more of an advice embedded model, 302 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: and Will Shure has been able to participate in that, 303 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: and so I you know, it's fortuitous the timing of 304 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: when I joined the firm. But you know, over the 305 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: last you know, decade or so, we've grown, you know, rapidly, 306 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: UM as one of the you know, premier providers of 307 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: these types of services to the intermediary market. So let 308 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: me ask you about a division that caught my eye 309 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: when I was doing a little homework. What is the 310 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: Wilshire Segregated Portfolio Companies. Right, so these are, um, these 311 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: are at a fancy name for our Cayman hedge fund 312 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: platform and so these are you know, this is a 313 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: platform that was created actually in two thousand and five, 314 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: right around the time that I joined. At the time 315 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: it was created, there was this this belief that still 316 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: exists in some respects today that that you know, if 317 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: you're able to, you want to hire a hedge fund, right, 318 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: you want that that hedge funds trading prowess, You want 319 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: their exceptional ability to uh to to buy securities and 320 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: generate performance. But um, you know, many people may be 321 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with the operational risk that comes with that, the 322 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: fact that, uh you know, you don't have a lot 323 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: of transparency or control over those assets. Necessarily you're just 324 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: a an investor in an LP. And how do you 325 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: pick out of the eleven thousand funds and pick out 326 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: of the eleven thousand So we set out to solve 327 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: that in two ways, one of which was structural, where 328 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: if we could essentially just have the hedge fund manager 329 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: run a separate account right where they just have trading authority, 330 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: but will share controls the counterparty relationships, etcetera. UM and 331 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: will share as a fiduciary. Right, would would vide a 332 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: level of of you know, trust to the market, to 333 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: our clients. And then the other you know element of 334 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: that is if we could identify you know, highly skilled 335 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: investment managers using our research platform, using the fact that 336 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: we you know obviously are engaged in a lot of 337 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: these activities for you know, a trillion dollars in assets. 338 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: We have a combination of buying power we have we 339 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: think the ability to separate you know, skill from luck, etcetera. 340 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: So and a pretty big network, Uh contain their ind 341 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: correct you guys do something similar on the private equity side, 342 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: you break it out separately or is it all part 343 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: of the same platform. So that's a different that's a 344 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: different business unit wills for private markets UM and and 345 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: you know, similar in the sense that that that businesses 346 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: is you know today looks much like a private equity 347 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: asset manager. UM you know started out as as building 348 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: customized fund of funds for for institutional investors and today uh, 349 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: you know, has a large array of a fund of 350 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: funds increasingly customized advisory work in the private markets. Uh 351 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: makes sense. I've been racking my brain trying to figure 352 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: out who a competitor tools sure is and I can't 353 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: really think of anybody. I mean maybe S and P, 354 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: but even them, it's not really the same. Like who 355 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: do you look at as actual competitors, if anybody? Right, So, 356 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: I think you have to look at the different components 357 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: of our business business, which you know, as you've noted, 358 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: is broad based. You know, look on the consulting side 359 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: of our business. UM, a lot of you know, large 360 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: fortuitous competitors there, the the you know, the the Towers, 361 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: the AONs um, the mercers of the world. Uh, you know, 362 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: as well as a number of mid market players you 363 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: know in the work that we do. UM in the 364 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: financial intermediary market. UM. You know morning Star is a 365 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: you know, a formidable competitor obviously as a great brand 366 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: in the retail advisor community. UM, you know, certainly on 367 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: the index side of our business, right uh. Uh you 368 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: know foot see M, S, C, I, SMP. On the 369 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: private market side, probably firms like Hamilton, Lane and and others. So, 370 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: so you know, because we don't do one thing we have, um, 371 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: which I think is a great strength. Um. You know, 372 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: we compete with different people in different parts of the market. 373 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: Makes sense. You know. Earlier we were discussing Dennis Tito, 374 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: whose background was astronautics and aeronautics and uh, he also 375 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: is somewhat famous for being the world's first paying space tourist. 376 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: He went up to the was it the International Space Station? 377 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: Is that right? Um? So given that background, how did 378 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: that impact how will Shure developed? Was that significant or 379 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: just an interesting footnote? Yeah? I mean I think we 380 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: it's consistent with our you know, our heritage. UM. And Dennis, uh, 381 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, this was this was his passion early in 382 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: his career and um, you know, had an opportunity. It's 383 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: actually a remarkable story of persistence. UM, because you know, 384 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: it was a difficult thing to do. He was I 385 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: think at the time, the oldest Uh. I think it 386 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: might have been the oldest person. He's gonna kill me 387 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: for saying this, but the oldest person um launched into 388 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: launched into space, let alone as a as a civilian. Uh. 389 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: He had to train you know for six months in 390 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: in in in Russia, where they you know, really tried 391 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: to get him to drop out. Um, and you know, 392 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: and will we tell the way we tell the story is, 393 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: you know, this is a guy who's has been focused 394 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: on risk management his whole career. You know, My understanding 395 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 1: of the way that the payment of structed was structured was, 396 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: you know, there was you know, a certain amount to 397 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: pay him up, bring him up to space, and then uh, 398 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: you know, a larger amount to bring him back down. 399 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: Another words, create an incentive to keep him alive. That's 400 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: exactly right, That's very that's very, very funny. So we 401 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: were we were discussing, Um, I'm gonna say that again. 402 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: So the firm was pretty early in the world of 403 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 1: index is the wilsh for five thousand and seventy war 404 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,719 Speaker 1: I think that was the year Van Guard launched. So 405 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: you were right there at the beginning of uh the indusseries. 406 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: Back then, most indexes were used as benchmarks. Now they're 407 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: really used as investment vehicles. How has that affected, uh, 408 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: the world of investing and how has it affected your firm? Sure, well, 409 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: it's you know, for as a manufacturer of of indexes, 410 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: it's it's certainly an economic opportunity. I think you know 411 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 1: what started out as you know, indexes as benchmarks as 412 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: you as you know it is as really uh blossomed 413 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: or skyrocketed into is a great proliferation of indexes UM, 414 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: you know, and part of that is because you know, 415 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: asset managers are looking for very discrete ways of measuring 416 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: their performance and in some cases, you know, looking for 417 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: ways to to tell a story against a benchmark. Let's 418 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: just get a better benchmark or different benchmark UM, which 419 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: which you know, I think is is I would say, 420 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: isn't uh not a particularly healthy part of the industry. 421 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: But I think the their element which has been you know, 422 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: good for our business UM and those that are that 423 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: are able to you know, as a as a branded 424 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: entity create indexes is you know, you have all this 425 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: this intellectual property, You've got these smart people, You've got 426 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: these quants, right and now increasingly with you know, factor 427 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: based you know, quantitative strategies UM, one can create UM 428 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, investment ideas, right, and so the pace of 429 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: innovation around investment ideas, which can then be translated into 430 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: an index right, which can then be licensed to a 431 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: manufacturer and et F firm to package that license package 432 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: that that index UM and deliver that to the marketplace. 433 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,479 Speaker 1: Is you know, is creating another wave of of uh 434 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, product growth. And that's everything. That's everything from 435 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: smart data to factor based investing too, E s G too, 436 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: pretty much you name it. There's an index for there's 437 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: an index underlying that strategy. Um, there's a crypto index 438 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: coming out, there's a weed index coming out. I mean 439 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: it's it's astonishing if you could come up with an 440 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: investing style someone either has or is about to make 441 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: an index. Is that a growth opportunity or are we 442 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: now over indexed? Well? I think um, uh, probably both. 443 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: I mean it's a huge opportunity for us. Um we're 444 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: participating in that. I think, you know, for us, it's 445 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: it's where can we bring great ideas with with partners um, 446 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, not in a desire to just just flood 447 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: the market with with product, but it's a great way 448 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: to uh you know, we think bring new innovative concepts 449 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: to the marketplace. But but yeah, I mean I read 450 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: there was a study recently that that looked at the 451 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: number of indexes relative to total listed stocks and it 452 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: was like, you know, like there's something like four times 453 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: the amount of indexes as there are just global stocks. Right, 454 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: so there is clearly this vast proliferation of indexes um 455 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, and and you know, we could also ask 456 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: the question of, you know, does the does the market 457 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: need you know, to we're three thousand ETFs and I 458 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: think the answer to that is probably no. There's a 459 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: there's a real Darwinian battle for survival. And when we 460 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: look at the distribution of assets and e t f s, 461 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: it's very much a fat head long tail sort of 462 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: there's a handful of winners, it's black Rock, Vanguard and 463 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: then pulling up at the number three State Street and 464 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: then everybody else. Our our index is more or less 465 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: the same way as it a handful of big winners 466 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: and then a thousand also rounds, right. I think in 467 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: the beta space that's correct, Berry, I think you know 468 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: the beta race has has has essentially is it's that's 469 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: pretty much correct. And and you know and and uh 470 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: I shares and and and Vanguard and um you know 471 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: now Schwab and you know, a select few really own 472 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: and own that market, right and and you know what 473 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: is the what are the prices for you know, broad 474 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: market beta it's you know, increasingly free, right. But I 475 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: think that the market for UM, you know, value add strategies, 476 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: for more niche strategies, for for strategies that are designed 477 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: to provide differential types of exposure, is still strong, and 478 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, ideas that can be packaged into solutions, not 479 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: just you know, beta market beta per se um. You know, 480 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: I think the market for that will continue to be strong, 481 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: and great ideas will always have a place in investor portfolios. 482 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: So so let's talk a little bit about indexing and 483 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: passive and I would be remiss if I did not 484 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: bring up the so called robo advisors or algorithmic asset allocations. 485 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: How does that fit into the Wilshire worldview? Are these 486 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: potential clients? Are they competitors? Are they just hey, here's 487 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: a cheap way to probably do it better than you're 488 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: gonna do it yourself. What's your view on that on robos? 489 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: You know, I think, um, look, I mean, I think 490 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: there's a number of things here. I think if you 491 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: if you think about the way in which um, you know, 492 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: in some respect, asset managers engage with the market, it's 493 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: it's archaic in the sense that most asset managers don't 494 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: actually communicate directly with their clients, right they that makes sense, right, 495 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: and so so I think there's this opportunity which we're seeing, 496 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: you know, a level of disruption where you've got this 497 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: really what is a direct to consumer model? Right? So, Um, 498 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: which if we're talking about Van Gord or Swab for sure, 499 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: if you're talking about all the third party robots were 500 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: using State Street, Black Rock, Vangard, etcetera, they are the intermediary, 501 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: right but there but you know, we take like a 502 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: Better Men or a well Front or or some of 503 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: these firms. Um, it strikes me that they are you know, 504 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: in in many respects disintermediate and the traditional relationship between 505 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: a financial advisor and a financial advisor's client to some 506 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: to something. The question I've always won it about are 507 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: they pulling their clients from advisors or they pulling their 508 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: clients from previous do it yourselfers who kind of said 509 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: maybe I need a little help with this, and I 510 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: honestly don't know. I don't know either, and I think 511 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: I think probably both. I think, you know, maybe it's 512 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: similar to online banking, right, online banking and the thought 513 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: there would people no longer go to branches and um, 514 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, self directed brokerage was going to put everybody 515 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: out of business. But but no, I mean there's there's 516 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: a level of self selection. I think. I think clients 517 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: will matriculate from a um, you know, from essentially a 518 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: self directed uh experience to a financial advisor. I think, 519 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, as as one's needs become 520 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: more complex, more of the financial planning component becomes more relevant. 521 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: So you know, I see this as a as as 522 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: sort of an app as an application. I also, by 523 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: the way, when we think about millennials and how millennials 524 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: are going to consume investment advice, I I you know, 525 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: the notion of you know, when I was a kid 526 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: having dinner right around six or seven o'clock, the phone's ringing, 527 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: and it's like a you know, Smith Barney broker, right 528 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: and and so you know, our our kids gonna get 529 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: coal called by uh, you know, by a broker at 530 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: dinner time. They don't even have landlines. The last interesting 531 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: data point I saw on that was by next summer, 532 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: by the summer of half of the calls coming into 533 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: your mobile phone are going to be spam. So I 534 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: don't know if they're gonna be people pitching stock, but 535 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: I think that method of selling certainly has if not 536 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: disappeared fullen by the wayside to a large degree, and 537 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: was the last time anyone got a call from someone 538 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: pitching them you gotta buy this, I p O. I 539 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: don't think that's happened recently. We have been speaking with 540 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: Jason Schwartz, president of will Share Funds Management and will 541 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: Share Analytics. If you enjoy this conversation about all things 542 00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: index analytics, fund management and institutional advisement, be sure and 543 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: come back and check out the podcast extras, where we 544 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: keep the tape rolling and continue discussing all of the above. 545 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: You can find that at Apple, iTunes, Overcast, Stitcher, Bloomberg 546 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: dot com, wherever finer podcasts are sold. Be sure and 547 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: check out my daily column that's at Bloomberg dot com. 548 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: You could follow me on Twitter at rid Halts. We 549 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us at 550 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. I'm Barry rid Halts. 551 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome 552 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: to the podcast, Jason, thank you so much for doing this. 553 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to having this conversation for quite 554 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: a while. I'm sort of fascinated by what Wilsher does. 555 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: It really is a unique firm compared to just about 556 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: any other firm you want to put your your finger on. 557 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: You guys do a lot of different things across a 558 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: lot of different business lines. One business sector that I 559 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: didn't get to during the broadcast portion, but I have 560 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: to ask you about is and I know you don't 561 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: run this division, but I'm fascinated by it. The outsourced 562 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: chief Investment Officer or O c I. Oh what exactly 563 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: is that? Because I'm I'm somewhat familiar with it, but 564 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: probably not as much as I should be sure, So, UM, 565 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: the O c I O business model is UM essentially 566 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: calls for the discretionary management of and acid owners fund 567 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: more portfolio. And so so if I'm an R I 568 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: A and I have a chief investment officer, or I 569 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: don't have a chief investment officer, I could outsource that 570 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: that responsibility. Well, so O C I O is you, 571 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: as you reference in our consulting business provides this service. 572 00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: UM is really resident within the institutional pension on foundation 573 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: and endowment community. And what what it refers to really 574 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: is is, you know the traditional way historically that that 575 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: pension funds have consumed investment advices through a consultant meeting 576 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: with an investment committee and board of trustees, generally providing 577 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: non discretionary advice. So the consultant would make recommendations and say, 578 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: I think we should be uh, you know, using these 579 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: managers and we'll do an asset liability study and and 580 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: we'll you know, construct this this really powerful acid allocation. 581 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: And then it's either followed or not. It's either followed 582 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: or not um And you know, so with that, the uh, 583 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, the the asset owner has to have professional staff, 584 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: they have to have governance frameworks, they have to have meetings, etcetera. 585 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: And so with O C I oh, it's all right, consultant, 586 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: all right, wil Shure, here's a billion dollars. Do it 587 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: for me, right, you make the decisions, will set up 588 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: the frameworks, the governance. Uh you know, there'll be certain parameters. 589 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: But instead of you having to run all your recommendations 590 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: through us and we meet for you know, three months 591 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: six months and discuss, it's bring your best, you know, 592 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: your best thought leadership to bear, but under an environment 593 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: where you have discretion. And so basically that I'm guessing here, 594 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: is that really aimed at some of the smaller funds 595 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: that may not have the administrative and staff and the 596 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: resources to run a full ce I O office, and 597 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: with all the bells, whistles and analysts, et cetera, is 598 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: that the sweet spot of that. That's that's fair. I 599 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: mean there's been some some larger um you know, some 600 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: larger of O c IO engagements, but generally, I think 601 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: you're starting to see a pretty clear bifurcation, you know, 602 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: sub a billion dollars. I think it's getting increasingly difficult 603 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: to make that case for lots of overhead um, you know, 604 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: and increasingly we think the market's going to go more 605 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: O c I oh, sub one billion, you know, an 606 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: over over a billion. They'll be all sorts of different 607 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 1: levels of customization. And that's especially if again I'm guessing here, 608 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: but small endowments, small pension funds where there are future liabilities, 609 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: and if you have a big and expensive stay relative 610 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: to the size of the assets and the management, it 611 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: really could be a drig on long term returns. That's 612 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: absolutely right. It makes a lot of sense. I think 613 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: of ETFs is just a rapper that happens to be 614 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: tax advantaged versus traditional forty act mutual funds. Am I 615 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: grossly oversimplifying it? Or is that basically what E t 616 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: F s are? I think that's I think that's right. So, 617 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: so what does that mean in terms of you just 618 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: discussed intellectual property involved in managing and creating indexes. Are 619 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: we going to see more and more of those type 620 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: of indexes become et F s? Uh? What's the future 621 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: we we talked about a few thousand of them are 622 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 1: out there, not all of which are attracting assets. What 623 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: what's your view on the direction of the t F industry? Yeah, 624 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: I mean I think that they'll continue to be a 625 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 1: proliferation of of e t s. I think will continue 626 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: to see kind of a winner take all. Um. You know, 627 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: it's early on the beta side with more simplistic et 628 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: F s. Scale matters, you know, brand matters, but but 629 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: you know, the barriers to entry are are pretty low, right, 630 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,720 Speaker 1: and and so I think you're you're going to continue 631 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: to see a lot of additional e t F s. Um, 632 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: You're also going to see more funds, right. I think 633 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: last year was was the first year that we uns. Yeah, 634 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: I think we're gonna see more more fun products to 635 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: mutual funds have just about a century of history. What 636 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: what does it look like going forward for them? We 637 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: think that the mutual funds will continue to exist. We're 638 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 1: seeing fees come down, We're seeing increasingly um, you know, 639 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 1: fees being stripped out of mutual funds. Uh, that trend 640 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: will continue. UM. You know E t f s are 641 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: are certainly helpful in that respect. UM. But you know, 642 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: I think we ask ourselves the bigger question of could 643 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: we offer personalized s m as for individuals? Right? So, 644 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: so instead of everybody's in a pool vehicle, uh, in 645 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: this mutual fund via coal, Um, maybe we get to 646 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: a point where technology will allow for for more mass customization, 647 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: so everybody gets their own kind of s m A UM. 648 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: And I think that is something that um, you know, 649 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: model delivery u m as. These are all sorts of 650 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: innovations that are kind of at the at the fringe here. 651 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 1: So someone says, I want the SMP five hundred, but 652 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: I don't want I don't want gunstocks, or I don't 653 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: want gambling stocks or whatever it happens to be. You 654 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: get the SMP minus whatever or plus whatever it is 655 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: you want. Is that what you mean by customers? Right? 656 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 1: And that exists today at the higher end of the market, 657 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: right where where a wealthy individual can have an investment 658 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: firm create a customized strategy, whether it's for for tax 659 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: planning purposes or for um, you know, stripping out certain 660 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: types of securities. UM. You know, E s G does 661 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: this right pretty well, pretty well. But I think that 662 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: the the ability to create those types of vehicles for 663 00:37:55,560 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: smaller accounts sizes will become increasingly a reality, which you know, 664 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: then calls into question the viability of the mutual fund 665 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: as really the kind of default package for many UH individuals. 666 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: Dave Nadig is UM managing director of ETF dot com, 667 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: which is owned by A. S BOW, and he is 668 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: a big believer in that exact approach. Everybody gets a 669 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: custom s m A because the technology has made what 670 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 1: used to be complicated in time consuming and expensive pretty 671 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: much a couple of lines of software and off you go. 672 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: I remain in unconvinced, but he and and you both 673 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: seem to be thinking along the same lines with that. 674 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: Is there really a big market for that today or 675 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: is that a future sort of sort of UM product 676 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: that people could customize if that's what they want. I'm 677 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: also thinking of things like motif where you could kind 678 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: of create a theme and it's very low cost to 679 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, I think it's I think it's in 680 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,240 Speaker 1: the future. I think the look I think their structural 681 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: impediments to change in the traditional way in which investment 682 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 1: services are are distributed. It's why you don't see e 683 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: t fs on on d C menus. Right from a 684 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: record keeping standpoint, it's difficult. So I think they're they're 685 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: going to continue to be kind of institutional impediments to change. 686 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: But you know when we talk about robos and digital 687 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: advisors and and some of these new startups, you know 688 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: where you've got this sort of algorithmic way of creating 689 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: you know, high volume portfolios, highly customized portfolios, and we're 690 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: doing parts of this too. Um. I think we'll start 691 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: to get there, but it may not be the start 692 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: with the more entrenched players. Why is it that we 693 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: don't see more ETFs in four oh one K type vehicles? 694 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: Is it just inertia? Are the mutual the the I'm 695 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: thinking of the admiral type shares of mutual funds are 696 00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: very very inexpensive compared to the average et F. Certainly 697 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: the spider SMP five is dirt cheap. But for for 698 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: most four oh one k is the mutual funds. I 699 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: want to phrase this correctly. For the better four oh 700 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: one kse you have options of very very inexpensive mutual funds. 701 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: Why have any TFS fund that found their way into that? 702 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: Is it simply inertia or are there other reasons? I 703 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: think I think there are other reasons related to record 704 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: keep the way in which record keepers UM and those 705 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: you know systems, some of which are are you know, 706 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: kind of older systems are designed really to for mutual funds, 707 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,359 Speaker 1: not for e t fs. And is that simple? Huh? 708 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 1: That's quite fascinating. So I know, uh, I only have 709 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 1: you for a finite amount of time. Let me jump 710 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: to my favorite questions. UM tell us the most important 711 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: thing that we don't know about Jason Schwartz, How about UM? 712 00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:03,320 Speaker 1: I actually started my career in Hanoi, Vietnam. Really, that's fascinating. 713 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: What were you doing in Vietnam? So I I had 714 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: an opportunity to go over there for a summer really 715 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: as an internship UM in and UM and ended up 716 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: staying for a period of time. I worked for a 717 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: private equity firm Uh, the US normalized trade relations with Vietnam, 718 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: and so I stayed and worked for the Department of Commerce. 719 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: Is fascinating, absolutely fascinating. I have a buddy who was 720 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: doing a speaking tour of Asia, Michael Covil, who was 721 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: a prior guest way back when did a speaking tour 722 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 1: of Asia, Hong Kong, Beijing, went went through everywhere, ended 723 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 1: up in Hanoi and called his roommate and San Diego 724 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: and said, send my stuff, I'm not coming home. He said. 725 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,240 Speaker 1: It was that fascinating of a place. Yeah, it was amazing. 726 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: It's it's it's the wild West and the new face 727 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: of capitalism. Is that well right, And at the time 728 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 1: it was it was really kind of early Lee and 729 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: in opening up and liberalizing the economy, and uh, you know, 730 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: up until U S companies were not able to do 731 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: business in Vietnam and so maybe legally right, and so 732 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: it was absolutely fascinating, absolute wild West. But it really 733 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: a great way for me as a young you know, 734 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: as a young person to be introduced to business, to 735 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,280 Speaker 1: do so in a different in a third world communist country. 736 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's where everybody should start their careers. That's 737 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: very funny. Tell us about some of your early mentors 738 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: who helped guide your career. Um. Yeah, so there was 739 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: a guy here, Bill Aaron at at Executive Monetary Management, 740 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 1: was was when I first kind of um investment related jobs. Um. 741 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: You know remember him telling me to really, uh you know, 742 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: focus on a calling, not so much a job, and 743 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: that always stayed with me. You know it will sure, 744 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, uh cliche, but I certainly wouldn't be where 745 00:42:55,080 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: I am today without the time UM that folks like, um, 746 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: you know certainly uh Larry Devonzo who hired me, a 747 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: guy named Chuck Roth Chip Castile who was a former 748 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: b G. I was our c I oh, is the 749 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: smartest person I ever uh worked with and was one 750 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: of those guys where you know when you have them 751 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: on your team and you go into a meeting, you 752 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: just know you have the smartest person in the room 753 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: on your side. But I would ask these these all 754 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: of these folks questions and they were gracious with their 755 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: time and um, and that's really you know, Dennis became 756 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: a has become a mentor to me as as as 757 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: as as we've moved along. UM, that's a pretty good list. 758 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: That's a good list. So let's talk about investors. What 759 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,840 Speaker 1: investors out there influenced the way you think about markets, 760 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: thinking about investing. Who's affected your your perspective? So I 761 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: for us um and for me more kind of in 762 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: that acid allocation manager selection space. Um. You know Harry 763 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,839 Speaker 1: marko Witz. I knew you were going to go. Yeah, 764 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: it was the name on the tip of my time. Yeah. 765 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: So so you know that the grandfather father of modern 766 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: portfolio theory, Bill Still by the way, very active both 767 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,879 Speaker 1: in me and Sharon both active writing, publishing. Interesting. Yeah, 768 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: anyone else before I interrupted you? Anyway, there was a 769 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: gentleman Barton wearing Um who wrote some papers. Uh he 770 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: was at at at b G. I. You know that 771 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:18,839 Speaker 1: was a group that was doing some of the most 772 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: powerful work in kind of we call active risk optimization. Right, 773 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: how do you how do you build a portfolio of 774 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 1: managers and really optimize that outcome and control for risk, 775 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: moving from you know, sort of total return total risk 776 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: to active return active risk. And I, um, you know, 777 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: devoured that literature when I was early and trying to 778 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 1: figure things out. Very interesting. Um, everybody's favorite question. Tell 779 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: us about some of your favorite books, be they fiction, nonfiction, 780 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: invest and related or otherwise. Well, I you know, um, 781 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 1: sheep is sheepish Lee. I will say that my list 782 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: isn't particularly long. I have, um, I have three kids 783 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: under the age of ten, so your busy. Um. But 784 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: but uh, I you know I did read Shoe doog 785 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 1: um Phil Knight, Phil Knight very recently, and I I 786 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,240 Speaker 1: it was one of those books that I literally couldn't 787 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: put down uh fast. They were on the verge of 788 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: collapse for like the first ten years of their existence. 789 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: It's amazing starting on the edge, right, and that you 790 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: know that, Um, I think how he how the definition 791 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 1: of winning changed for him. You know, originally it was, 792 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: you know, win it all costs. It was this ultra competitive, 793 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: sort of more narrowly defined I must be successful, um, 794 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: which ultimately kind of became more of you know, we 795 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: want to make contributions. We wanna you know, do things 796 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 1: to change people's lives. You know that it became bigger, right, 797 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 1: And I really could relate. You know. I think a 798 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: lot of us, as we sort of move along in 799 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 1: our careers, what becomes of Gosh, you just want to 800 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: I want to be successful. I wanted the company to 801 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: be successful. Moves to I want. We want to you know, 802 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: help help change or improve people's lives, improve their outcomes. 803 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,320 Speaker 1: And I really you know, he talked about that and 804 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: it really resonated with me quite quite interesting. What are 805 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:15,319 Speaker 1: you excited about right now? Uh, in the industry in whatever? Well, 806 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: I think that the you know, we talked a little 807 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: bit about technology. UM, I think there's a lot to 808 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: be excited about technology, both as a disruptive force in 809 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,960 Speaker 1: changing the way that people consume investment advice. Um. You know, 810 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: the things that the ways in which we use technology 811 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,320 Speaker 1: today to to automate certain tasks and you know, increasingly 812 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: really automating elements of the investment process, even um, the 813 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,719 Speaker 1: delivery of materials to clients, you know, as we think 814 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,320 Speaker 1: about like you know, from paper to portal. Right, the 815 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: pace of change I think that we're living in right 816 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 1: now is so rapid and it's exciting because you know, 817 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: there are elements within the financial services space that, um, 818 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, I've probably been untouched for a long time 819 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,840 Speaker 1: and to say the least at least, and so that 820 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: you know, that's either horrifying, right and scary, or it's 821 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: a huge opportunity. And I think it's a huge opportunity, 822 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: and I'm excited to be able to participate in it. 823 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: Tell us about a time you failed and what you 824 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: learned from the experience. Um. So you know long list here, 825 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,800 Speaker 1: um I you know, I hiring is an area where 826 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 1: um so challenging, so challenging, right, and I think it's 827 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: it's an area to where you know, uh, you go 828 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: to school and you learn. You you go to graduate school, 829 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,800 Speaker 1: you learn a little bit more. Uh. You know, you 830 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: you have opportunities to to work in different jobs and 831 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: assuming one doesn't work in a human resources capacity, you know, 832 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,399 Speaker 1: hiring is not ever really something that that I think 833 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: we learn how to do right. Not it's not a 834 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,239 Speaker 1: class and class it's not taught. Um. So you have 835 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 1: this you know belief that it's kind of intuitive. Great 836 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,400 Speaker 1: people just hire great people. Um And and I think 837 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: it's something at I personally actually spend a lot of 838 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: time on trying to get better, trying to approach it 839 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: from more scientific way. And and you know, so failure 840 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 1: would failures would clearly be the times we got it wrong, 841 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 1: the times I made a mistake, Um, wrong person, want, 842 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 1: wrong role, not a great fit. Um you know in 843 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,759 Speaker 1: all of this sort of classic in retrospect biases that 844 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: that that prevail. Um, but there's you know, that's sort 845 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: of top of my list right now in terms of 846 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: I think that's the hardest thing that any company has 847 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: to do. It. It's just this is a little bit 848 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: of luck. It's just one of those things that I've had. 849 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,319 Speaker 1: I've had numerous people sitting in that seat say variations 850 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: of what you're saying. Hiring good people is the hardest 851 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: thing to do because it's just not a natural skill set. 852 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,840 Speaker 1: It's amazing. What do you do for fun? What do 853 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,360 Speaker 1: you do out of the office to kick back, relax 854 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: and uh have a good time. So, um, I have 855 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:04,799 Speaker 1: um actually become slightly obsessed with Olympic weightlifting really yeah, 856 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 1: so that's that's become kind of my my hobby. What 857 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: do you what do you be? No, no, no, it's this. 858 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 1: This is this is the clean and jerk and this 859 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,239 Speaker 1: is the snatch. So these are the two lifts that 860 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: are in the Olympic. Yeah. That is not easy to do. Yeah. 861 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: So so that's I mean, and there there's a reason 862 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: the Olympic lifts, right, and that's become um a real 863 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: probably you know, the most challenging and a physical thing. Um, 864 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: and I've done which which has been how did you 865 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,840 Speaker 1: find your way into that? That's a yeah. So so 866 00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:36,560 Speaker 1: I think a lot of if you're going to gyms 867 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,800 Speaker 1: these days, the sort of cross fit, um, you know, 868 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: flipping over tires, slipping over tires and harpies and and 869 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: and uh pull ups and and including some of these 870 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: lifts and she you know folks you know dropping barbells 871 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: and you know, chalk flying, and you know, after years 872 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:55,959 Speaker 1: of just you know, more of kind of the bench 873 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,839 Speaker 1: press and and you know, whatever it was to kind 874 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: of just stay in shape. You see these guys slamming 875 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,400 Speaker 1: bars and and that would be a great way to 876 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,480 Speaker 1: to kind of blow off scheme and um and yeah, 877 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,680 Speaker 1: I just started, you know basically just you know, had 878 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,480 Speaker 1: somebody kind of walk me through it and continue to 879 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,840 Speaker 1: to uh to try to progress and and enjoy it. So, 880 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,680 Speaker 1: so what do the Olympians do in in those sort 881 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: of way what sort of numbers? Well, so we think 882 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,319 Speaker 1: about the the the some of the best lifters are 883 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,799 Speaker 1: lifting from a barbell from the ground, from a dead yeah, 884 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,879 Speaker 1: on the ground, over two times their body weight over 885 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: their heads. So if you just think about it from 886 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,480 Speaker 1: the standpoint four hundred plus pounds, you know, over their 887 00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,959 Speaker 1: head um in a variety of ways. And and what's 888 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,600 Speaker 1: what's what's really interesting is it's not just about brute strength. 889 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,759 Speaker 1: It's about speed and technique and and that's where it 890 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 1: becomes this, you know, and and obviously the sort of 891 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,920 Speaker 1: the mental kind of agility. But um so, it's funny. 892 00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,080 Speaker 1: It's funny you say speeding technique. I was just having 893 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 1: a conversation last night. The woman who won the US 894 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: Open in in Forest Hills. I'm drawing a blank on 895 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,200 Speaker 1: her name, was a whole big issue with Simmena Williams. 896 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:16,040 Speaker 1: And she crushes the ball like a hundred and thirty five. 897 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,839 Speaker 1: She can't be more than a hundred pounds, soaking wet, 898 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: she's this tiny thing. And the answer is it's all technique. 899 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,080 Speaker 1: It's not power. You're not just muscling it through. I 900 00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: had no idea that was true for U, for Olympic 901 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,640 Speaker 1: deadlifts like well, and I would sort of say that 902 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,880 Speaker 1: it's it's actually true for a lot of things in life, thankfully, 903 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,759 Speaker 1: thankfully right for those of us who aren't necessarily six 904 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 1: to inject yes absolutely and um our our last two questions, 905 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,320 Speaker 1: what sort of advice would you give to a millennial 906 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,239 Speaker 1: or someone just starting their career, uh, if they were 907 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,080 Speaker 1: interested in going into finance first, I would say, there's 908 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,759 Speaker 1: a lot of different roles within, you know, within the 909 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,240 Speaker 1: finance realm, and so you know, I'm a good example 910 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,319 Speaker 1: of I'm actually I didn't rise to the ranks as 911 00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 1: an investor and so um, you know, I've been always 912 00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,040 Speaker 1: more focused on the client and business side of the 913 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,040 Speaker 1: business of investment management. And so you know, there's there's 914 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,360 Speaker 1: a number of different roles available and to sort of 915 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 1: learn about industries and roles, um, you know, is incredibly important. Um. 916 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:21,640 Speaker 1: The other I would say, and sort of take a 917 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:26,400 Speaker 1: page from Phil knights um memoir about seeking a calling 918 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,800 Speaker 1: and and really using your twenties, where the currency is 919 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 1: really less about you know, how much money you're making 920 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:38,000 Speaker 1: and should be more about the knowledge both about you know, 921 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,960 Speaker 1: what makes you tick um and what you did what 922 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,920 Speaker 1: doesn't and and really to ultimately try to find that calling, 923 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,200 Speaker 1: because it's it's the true calling that's gonna make uh, 924 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, the hard work more fulfilling, the disappointments you 925 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,440 Speaker 1: know easier to bear, and the highs you know when 926 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,359 Speaker 1: those highs come. UM, and this is what what Phil 927 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,759 Speaker 1: Knights says, that there's nothing like it. And that's been 928 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:04,239 Speaker 1: certainly my experience and our final question, what is it 929 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,239 Speaker 1: that you know about the world of investing today that 930 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,840 Speaker 1: you wish you knew twenty years ago? Well, you know, 931 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,919 Speaker 1: I'll say that, UM, simple beats complex almost all the time. 932 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,800 Speaker 1: And UM, you know, I think that's something that you know, 933 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:25,200 Speaker 1: the further I've come, you know, the more kind of 934 00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:30,879 Speaker 1: the realization that the really complex difficult to unpack. UM, 935 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, strategies, whether it's investment managers, whether it's you know, 936 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,239 Speaker 1: the latest kind of whiz bang you know idea. UM. 937 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:47,080 Speaker 1: Oftentimes you know really well diversified uh, portfolios, UM you 938 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:52,239 Speaker 1: know really good Uh you know investment managers or passive products, 939 00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 1: UM do really really well. We have been speaking with 940 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,120 Speaker 1: Jason Schwartz. He used the president of Willsher Funds Management 941 00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaker 1: and wilsh your analytics. If you enjoyed this conversation, we'll 942 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:07,600 Speaker 1: be sure to look up an inch rore down an 943 00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 1: inch on Apple iTunes and you could see any of 944 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:15,160 Speaker 1: the previous let's call it two dred and twenty prior 945 00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:20,080 Speaker 1: conversations that we've had. We love your comments, feedback, end 946 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:24,239 Speaker 1: suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg 947 00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,719 Speaker 1: dot net. I would be remiss if I did not 948 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,160 Speaker 1: think our crack staff who helps put this together each week. 949 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:34,840 Speaker 1: Attica val Brun is our project manager, Medina Parwana is 950 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,960 Speaker 1: my producer. Taylor Riggs is our booker. Michael Batnick is 951 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,760 Speaker 1: our head of research. I'm Barry Rehults. You've been listening 952 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,440 Speaker 1: to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio