WEBVTT - Meet the UN's First Special Rapporteur on Environmental Defenders 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:05.000 Last year's Conference of the Parties, the UN's annual Climate Summit, 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:10.160 where global leaders come together to commit to certain actions 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:14.160 required to tackle the climate crisis, was held in the 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:18.600 United Arab Emirates, one of the world's major oil producers. 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:22.560 It was presided over by the president of the country's 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:27.160 national oil company. There were many many stories about the 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:31.320 obvious conflicts of interest there, including stories that rent on 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:35.519 our website at drilled Dot Media. But another issue that 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:37.920 came up, which had come up the year before in 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:42.480 Egypt as well, was the limited role that climate activists 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.720 were allowed to play at this COP As they were 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.800 in Egypt, protesters at last year's COP were cordoned off 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:55.800 to a special designated area, far away from anyone who 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:00.800 might be bothered by them. One young protester managed to 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:03.680 bust into the main proceedings and make a bit of 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:08.959 a fuss, but otherwise protesters were largely unseen. This year's 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:13.440 COP will be in another oil state, Azerbaijan. Again, the 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.839 country's national oil company will be deeply involved, and again 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:21.520 protesters are likely not to be tolerated, which begs the 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:27.200 question should protection of protest itself be a topic at COP? 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:33.360 Can we get real climate action absent real democracy. With 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:35.760 all of that going on, it seemed like a good 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:39.080 time to bring you this interview that our reporter in France, 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.800 Anna Pugel Mazzini did with Michel Forced, the world's first 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:50.360 UN special rapperture on environmental defenders. It's good timing because 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:55.040 Forced released today a scathing report on what he's seeing 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.440 happen in the UK. If you missed our episode on that, 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.160 it came out last week, go and listen to it. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.360 The UK has moved really quickly to suppress protest and 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.920 even to suppress what protesters are allowed to say in 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:13.000 their own defense in court. Forced is not having it. 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.640 We'll link to that report in the show notes. The 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:19.960 position was created under something called the Our host Convention. 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.120 It's called that because it was adopted in the Danish 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.600 city of Our Hosts. Its official title is the UN 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:32.079 Convention on Access to Information, Public Participation in Decision Making 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:36.760 and Access to Justice and Environmental Matters. It falls under 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:41.120 the United Nations Economic Convention for Europe and it's been 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:45.840 ratified by forty eight states, including the European Union. As 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.200 you'll hear in this interview, Force points out that because 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:53.040 it's a convention. There are actual teeth to it, which 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:57.920 makes things kind of interesting. Specifically, this new position of 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.720 his and the convention that supports it creates a pathway 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.000 for citizens to voice issues that they have with a 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.919 development that will affect them. It also requires that they 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:14.160 be informed about those developments. So whether it's a building project, 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.800 a mine, oil drilling, really anything that will materially impact 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.760 their environment, they need to be informed about it and 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:26.679 they need to be able to express their opinions on it. 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:28.880 It also says that it's not enough for people to 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.239 be able to voice their displeasure with a particular project, 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.560 they also need to have a legal pathway to do 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:39.760 something about it. In this interview, Anna asked Force how 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.600 that commitment jives with the increased repression of climate protests 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.680 that we've been seeing around Europe, what he and his 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.080 office might be able to do about that repression, and 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:54.040 how he thinks cop should address the rights of environmental activists. 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.560 They got into all that and a lot more. I 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.000 think you're going to enjoy this conversation. I'm Ami Westerville 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.800 and you're listening to Drilled. After the break, Reporter Anna 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:09.080 Poujol Mazzini in conversation with Michelle Forced stay with us. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.760 Hello, Michelle, First, thank you so much for taking the 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:25.800 time for this interview. So could you start by introducing 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.719 yourself and telling me a bit more about your role 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:29.960 as special Rapture. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.320 Yes, so thank you for the invitation. As you know, 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.520 I've been recently appointed to a due more data which 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.839 has been created by steps that are party to the 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.240 Orus Convention, which is a very interesting convention ratified by 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:48.280 forty eight states including THEU, based on three pillars. The 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:52.520 first success to information, meaning that in any country which 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.080 is part of the convention, when there is a project 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.919 that would affect the environment, then those who might be 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:01.720 affected should be a informed by the state in any 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.320 language that is accessible to the public. The second pillar, 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.520 which is complimentary to the first, is the obligation for 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.760 states but to also consulted Communities. Families are people who 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.400 are affected by this projector and they would have a 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.040 right to say anything on the project, including the right 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.240 to say no. It doesn't mean that they could block 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.159 the project. At least the would express themselves and say 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.720 that they don't agree with the projector. And the last pillar, 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.240 which is very irrelevant for the time being is access 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:35.120 to justice, access to environmental justice, meaning that people have 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.840 a writer to go to quote and then to challenge 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.800 any decison made by the state or the company when 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.679 it affects their environment. So the Moundate is mostly directed 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.839 to countries that are multitude the Aras convention. But the 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.159 beauty of the Moundate, if I may say so, is 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.560 that when it's come to companies that operate a broader 0:05:55.200 --> 0:06:00.560 like companies doing extractive industries or anything that ven and 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:02.839 they have their headquarters in one of the countries which 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.320 is part of to our convention, and operated a broader 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.120 and then do harm to defend us are broader like 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.240 a company based in Madrid working on time oil and 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:15.520 work in Peru or Columbia and then deforesting, affecting communities 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.400 in these people. Then those defenders could have access to 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.279 my mound data and that they would speak not to 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.520 the data but to the company itself. So we have 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.440 plenty of cases currently coming to the MOUND data from Africa, 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:31.719 from Alta in America and also from Asia involving companies 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.839 are based in France, in UK, in Switzerland, Norway, other countries. 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.840 So that's very new mandata very interesting and we need 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.279 to promote the mon date because most of the defenders, 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.800 most of the climate activists or environmental defenders don't even 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.159 know that they are defenders and that there are currently 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.840 mechanisms that could support them or defend them when they 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:58.919 are currently facing threats. And the reason why states have 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.680 decided to create this new mound data is presidesly because 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.560 they see that in many parts of the world, those 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:10.360 who are the most targeted, the most pressure climate activists. 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.120 And of course you know the data provided by global 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.360 witness and frontline defenders and others, and you see that 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.040 currently it's only the tip of the iceberg. 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:25.040 So you're the first raperture for the protection of environmental 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:30.360 defenders and the position was only created last year. But 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:32.840 as you say, we know that climate and land defenders 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:37.160 have been criminalized and even killed for decades. So could 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.480 you talk a bit more about what prompted the creation 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:41.840 of this role at this particular time. 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.320 As I said, precisely because the state's part to the 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.040 convention have been made away on the need to do more. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.360 So there is a strong component on prevention in my 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.120 mound data and I'm trying to develop with my team 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.600 also with the support of followers and angiosa and you 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:03.680 measure to prevent those attacks to occur. The difference between 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.760 this mandata and other UN mandata is that while other 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.680 mandates have been created by a resolution adopted by the 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.320 Council in Geneva by the UN Rights Council, this man 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:17.560 data has been created within the legally binding instrumental the Convention, 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.480 which has huge implications in the mances to come or 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:23.080 you have to come. The fact that there is a 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:27.760 mandate created and illegally buying instrumanda as huge implications for stats, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.080 but so for companies because companies that are currently in 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:33.440 one of the countries that are partic to the Convention 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:38.319 also legally binding binded by this by this new human data. 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:43.480 And so the fact that the mandate is legally binding, 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:48.160 what does that give you the tools to do to 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.240 protect environmental defenders? 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:54.160 It gets more more pressure to the man data where 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.640 I'm speaking with ministers traveling two countries, where I'm sending 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.720 allegation letters to countries doing that. Then the fact that 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:05.120 defenders are being threatened or under attack. Then the fact 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.160 that the mandate is granted legally reinforces the dialogue with 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:10.480 the state because they know that it does. It may 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.040 have implications like, for instance, if one state would not 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.320 fulfill the recommendations expressed by the mound data, then there 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.520 would be also possibilities for the other parties to the 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.680 convention to request withdrawal from the states from the convention, 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.640 which in terms of international diplomacy have quite a number 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.600 of implications. Could imagine uk on France being expelled from 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:38.000 one of the most relevant convention on environment that would 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.960 be complicated for them to face things. And similarly, the 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.280 fact that we are currently in Europe adopting new measures 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:50.080 new legally binding instrument like the Due Diligence arective would 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.200 also have implications for companies that are based in Europe 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.880 instead would have the obligations to oversee the behavior of 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:02.360 companies proud like lact Totally Nagen France, or companies from 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.559 UK or from other countries Operator and Brew. So it's 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.040 too early now to say, but I'm confident that the 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.880 more we developed together with lawyers the methods of worker 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.320 and we will see the results in aram of states. 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:21.319 Could you maybe give us an overview on what the 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:26.199 situation looks like today in the world for environmental defenders 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.040 and how it's evolved in the past years. 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.920 Yes, you know that in the past, I also had 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.400 another more data. I used to be the UN Special 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.880 appoct on defenders, and when I started with this mondate, 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.800 it was in twenty fourteen. I invited hundreds of defenders 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.959 to meet with me in broad consultations in all five continents, 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:48.680 and I was struck by the fact that the people 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.680 that came to me where the most at weaks were 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.920 precisely environmental defenders. And that's why I decided to develop 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.600 and to present a report in twenty sixteen to the 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:01.440 UN Rance Council on Environmental Defenders to set to state, 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.480 that's the situation that you are facing, and why is 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.319 it that you don't respond properly to the needs expressed 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:10.040 by those defenders. You have created mechanism tools to protect them, 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.400 but nonetheless we see that there is an increasing number 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.960 of killings of those defenders. And then states under the 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.720 leadership of Norway decided to adopt a new resolution on 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.600 advantage defenders, which rather a couple of years later, and 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:25.880 there was a way to pave the way for other 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.079 states and for the you and for the Lifeline project 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.520 to create new tools and modalities to protect advantage unders. 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.480 But nonetheless we see that the situation is quite quite 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.120 complicated so now and that's why having this new MAOUN data, 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.600 I'm trying to do the same, that is to organize constultations. 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:47.199 But broadly, I would say that the situation has not improved. 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.920 And it's sort of like a battle in which you 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.840 see that the more effective the tools are to protect 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.280 defenders and the more difficult that the situation is becoming 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.559 because states are developed and compared are developing new so 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.400 new new forms of in citius attacks against against enrountered 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:06.840 defenders and climate activists. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.559 So when you're talking about the situation getting worse for 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:16.760 environmental activists and states and other actors developing new tools, 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.160 could you talk a bit more about what that looks like. 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.760 Yes, I mean, if you if you read the reports 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.040 by Global Witness, they would tell you the data of 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.640 killings or attacks against defenders is increasing now, it's not diminishing, 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.120 despite the fact that we have developed new new measures 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.360 and the new forms of attacks in citius attacks have 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.719 been developed by by state using different form of criminalization, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:47.120 campaigns of feilification against climate activists and environmental defenders, new 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:51.079 forms of attacks, using like anti terrorist laws to target 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.120 those who are simply going to the street to protest 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.760 against the inaction of states on climata And that's something 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.200 which unfolt need for works in fact, and you see 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.600 that the reaction of the public to those new forms 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:10.240 of moradiation is not a big support absolutely. 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:14.120 I mean, I've heard you talk in other interviews about 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:19.520 also this sort of battle of narratives and the violence, 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.920 particularly in France that's used by the government and the 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:28.560 media against environmental activists. So I'm really interested to get 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.320 into that a bit more. What would you say is 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:40.319 driving this increase in the criminalization of environmental defenders, particularly 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:45.359 in Europe, which your mandate mostly covers. Are there special 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.120 interest or interest groups lobbying for these changes? 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.280 You know, when I was appointed D two, in fact 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.880 I started October twenty two, I decided to travel to 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.720 EU countriesa just to present them on data, because it's 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.040 not well known and we need to promote the MOUND data. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.360 And I've been invited to quite a number of EU 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.920 capitals to meet with governments, meeting with ministers, trying to 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.680 seek supports of political packing and sometimes funding for the 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.640 mound data and at each every occasion traveling to those countries, 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.120 I've been also inviting climate activists and defenders to come 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.320 to me to meet with me. I've been asking organizations 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.560 to set up meetings to discuss the situation in countries, 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.840 to see what is the level of attacks in countries. 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.640 And I've been impressed by the fact that what came 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:37.320 first was civil disobedienza and climate activism. In fact that 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:42.240 meeting with Greenpeace, meeting with other organizations, then the reservation 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:46.760 in France or other countries who they had similar organizations. 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.120 They all came to me saying that we see that 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.920 currently there is a huge pressure on us. The judicial 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:57.040 system does not respond adequately properly to our needs. We 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.880 are sentenced to more and more he finds or penalties 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.840 or prisons, fines, We are targeted by the police and 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.200 sometimes very violently, like in France but also in Germany, 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.640 and we don't see a big support from the media. 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.200 The media only reporting on actions taken, but they never 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.040 speak on the causes of the action. That is why 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.840 we are going to the street to demonstrata and they 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:26.120 only say that we are blocking access to road, putting 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:31.040 in danger other peoples. Blocking the access to hospitals is 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:35.680 not true blocking access to airports, but they don't report 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.560 properly on why we ask climate activists go to the 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.600 street to claim for a better response from the state 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:46.480 and what we see currently and daily the increasing climate 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:51.040 crisis and biodiversity crisis, and that's why I've decided to 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.160 organize that was in July a first meeting inviting twenty 0:15:55.240 --> 0:16:00.320 seven climate activists from seventeen countries to meet with me 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:04.160 one day, and the idea was to share information and 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.440 to read different experiencies coming from from different countries. I 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.200 also invited lawyers and their lawyers to come to the 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.680 meeting and to explain why they have been not able 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:17.840 to provide a very effective support to this climate activista. 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.520 And the idea of this first workshop was to prepare 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.520 a sort of a guidance tool for states to see 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.040 whether or not we could find a sort of harmonization 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:34.120 inside eucontrisa on how states are responding to the new 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:38.640 news form of mobilization, because what we currently see is 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.920 that what happens in France is different from what happens 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:46.240 in Germany or UK or in Norway or Switzerland, which 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:48.760 is not part of the EU, but we're somewhere also 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.000 from from Switzerland and even in countries, and we see 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:56.480 that the response coming from the judgical system is not 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.000 the same. If you demonstrate in parent or in to 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:05.760 Los or in Bordeaux, then if you are brought to justice, 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:10.280 you go to quota and you receive different sentences from 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.920 the same The system doesn't have that sort of harmonization 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:20.159 of the response to climate activism. Having also been monitoring 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.399 trials in courts in different countries to see how the 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:29.439 judges would respond to the needs expressed by the people 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.240 to explain the causes of the action and to use 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:38.200 also the criminal code in different ways, and to be honest, 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:42.080 are really struck by the fact that the judges don't 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.280 really respond to the needs in some countriesm like in 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:50.600 Franza or Switzerland, or Germany or Norway. Then you see 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:55.760 that judges would decide to sentence, but nonetheless to lift 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.280 the sentence, expressing that they have understood the cause and 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:03.080 why people have decide to break the law continually for 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.720 the cause. But nonetheless what is not relevant is that 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.000 in a continent or in a group of countries like 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.119 the EU, the response coming from from the juditual system 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.680 is different, which is not acceptable. In fact that currently 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.320 UK and Germany are the two countries that are the 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:25.480 most difficult for climatativist and those who are using civil disobedience, 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.360 and it has in those countries, but also in other 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.240 countries the terrent effect I meaning that people are sentenced 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.440 to heavy fines and so they would decide not to 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.920 continue the action, They would decide to withdraw from the organizations. 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:42.679 So it works from the side of the government. The 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:47.640 more important defines are penalties, then the more people who 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:52.439 decide to withdraw from organizations and would not decide to 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:53.240 continue the fight. 0:18:53.960 --> 0:19:01.640 That's so interesting. I mean, I wonder what has changed, 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.560 at least in Europe in the past few years to 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:11.000 pave the way for that increased criminalization and repression of 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:16.040 environmental activists. And I wonder if you're if you've heard 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:21.040 of particular political groups or interest groups or sort of 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:29.960 companies pushing for that repression in order to protect their interest. Well. 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.080 In fact, the reason why we see such an increasing 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.040 number of forms of orbilization in Europe is that young 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:40.639 people are currently the most active and see that the 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.120 future is endangered in fact, and that's why they're going 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.040 to Sweet to demonstrate and using civil disobedience as a 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.160 re action. But on the other side, the reaction from 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.040 the States is quite is quite different. I don't I 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.720 don't know, but probably companies would talk for each other 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:01.520 in fact, that's that's clear. And I know that governments 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:05.439 are currently also discussing what's happening in that country. Is 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:10.199 a comparing situation, comparing the response from the dulcy system 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.800 to those new forms of mobilization. But we don't have 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:20.280 concrete elements to elaborate on LISA. We know that some 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.320 companies are putting pressure in UK on the government. We 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.919 know that companies are putting pressure in France, like Total 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.360 Energy and others on the governments to respond to the 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:36.159 attacks coming from those activists against all those companies. But 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:41.360 we cannot confirm that there are currently sort of European 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:45.800 mobilization from companies or a network companies that would decide 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.760 to lobby in Europe, in the u R, at that 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:54.840 national level, at domestic level against those new activism. What 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.119 I see is that on the media you see more 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:01.040 CONTRIISA people using those new forms of orviization in blocking 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:05.200 the streets, throwing paints in museums or blocking access to 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.840 two roads, and they see that it draws the attention 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:11.280 of the public and the media. But at the same 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.240 time they complain that the media do not report pop adequately. 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:18.360 They will explain the causes. So it's sort of a 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.760 battle which is ongoing in countries in Europe and we 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.520 need to monitor. And that's the road that the model has, 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.119 to monitor the situation and then to report back to 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:31.320 states and to provide guidance to states to better respond them. 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:36.360 In my workshop in Paris in July, I also invited 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:40.119 that a few activists coming from outside the EU to 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:43.200 see whether or not it's limited in the EU. And 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.720 in fact, we have people coming from Georgia, for instance, 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:48.800 from Serbia, which are not party to the EU but 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:51.680 close to the EU, and those countries will tell us 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:53.720 that it's not the case in the countries in fact. 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.920 So currently that's very limited to EU countries in fact, 0:21:57.000 --> 0:21:58.360 so we need to understand why. 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.480 So when you say this, this seems to be limited 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:05.720 in new countries, is that the civil disobedience techniques or 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:08.840 is that the sort of repressive strategy is used by 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:10.280 states or both. 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:16.679 Both, Because yeah. Of course, the using civil disobedience is 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.600 a form of action that is used mostly in new countries. 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.439 While in Denmark, for instance, I was struck by the 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.800 fact of traveling to Denmark, I think organized a meeting 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:28.960 with climate activists in Denmark. The first thing that they 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:31.679 asked me that was to leave my computer and my 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:34.639 telephone outside of the room because they say we are 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:38.280 under surveillance and were taped in fact, and that's the 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:43.000 first time for many years that have seen that in Europe. 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:46.680 In fat people asking me to put my telephone outside 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:48.680 of the room, and when they came to parties to 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.320 my meeting they say the same who decide to leave 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:52.720 all telephone outside of the room? 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:59.920 Wow? And so I find it so interesting. Norway a 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.960 country which is also seeing a lot of time activism 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:08.720 and a lot of civil basibiliens, but not as heavy 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:11.840 handed a response to it. Would you say that's currently 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:16.760 the country that's best respecting the right of environmental defenders 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:17.960 within your amende. 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:21.080 I would say yes, but it needs to be confirmed 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:25.280 it was only a workshop. I've also been traveling to 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:28.240 Norway to also meet with them, and I was struck 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:30.280 by the fact that the situation is quite different from 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:33.000 other countries in near you, but does to be to 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:37.120 be confirmed by a more comprehensive analysis. And that's why 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:41.639 I also have requested the full Amzal Rights Agency. The 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:44.879 fraud based in Vienna are doing studies to study the 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:47.639 legal systems in medic countries and then there are also 0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:51.240 doing interviews with beneficial EASA to say where not the 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:55.040 law is respected in the countries. So from I would 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:57.720 also be looking at our current state of legislations in 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:01.520 new countrisa on civil disobedience to see that we need 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:05.879 to harmonize legislations. This is interesting. Is one of the 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:09.879 agencies that reports to the EU, to the Council, to 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:12.600 the Commission and to the Tallement in fact, and that 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:15.520 the role is to guide also the EU institutions on 0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:18.399 how to put pressure on states to better respect than 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:21.200 the Charter in fact. So a study coming from the 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:24.639 front will also be a way to complement my own 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:29.359 empedic analysis of the situation, a more scientific observation of 0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:30.920 what's happening in EU countries. 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:35.280 So, since your office was created almost a year ago, now, 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:39.879 what are some of the complaints that you've received? Do 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:43.000 you have sort of figures do you have examples of 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:44.840 the complaints people come to you with. 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:50.200 The practices that with you and special apports. The communications 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:53.960 are kept confidential until they get the become public in fact, 0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:58.560 so when I receive a complaint or communication coming from 0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:02.359 from a defender, then I'm discussing the side with the 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:07.880 staff while looking to receiving additional information with double shape 0:25:07.880 --> 0:25:10.240 information to make sure that we are not malipedated and 0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:13.359