1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: Last year's Conference of the Parties, the UN's annual Climate Summit, 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: where global leaders come together to commit to certain actions 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: required to tackle the climate crisis, was held in the 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: United Arab Emirates, one of the world's major oil producers. 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: It was presided over by the president of the country's 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: national oil company. There were many many stories about the 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: obvious conflicts of interest there, including stories that rent on 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: our website at drilled Dot Media. But another issue that 9 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: came up, which had come up the year before in 10 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: Egypt as well, was the limited role that climate activists 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: were allowed to play at this COP As they were 12 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: in Egypt, protesters at last year's COP were cordoned off 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: to a special designated area, far away from anyone who 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: might be bothered by them. One young protester managed to 15 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: bust into the main proceedings and make a bit of 16 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: a fuss, but otherwise protesters were largely unseen. This year's 17 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: COP will be in another oil state, Azerbaijan. Again, the 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 1: country's national oil company will be deeply involved, and again 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: protesters are likely not to be tolerated, which begs the 20 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: question should protection of protest itself be a topic at COP? 21 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: Can we get real climate action absent real democracy. With 22 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: all of that going on, it seemed like a good 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: time to bring you this interview that our reporter in France, 24 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: Anna Pugel Mazzini did with Michel Forced, the world's first 25 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: UN special rapperture on environmental defenders. It's good timing because 26 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: Forced released today a scathing report on what he's seeing 27 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: happen in the UK. If you missed our episode on that, 28 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: it came out last week, go and listen to it. 29 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: The UK has moved really quickly to suppress protest and 30 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: even to suppress what protesters are allowed to say in 31 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: their own defense in court. Forced is not having it. 32 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: We'll link to that report in the show notes. The 33 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: position was created under something called the Our host Convention. 34 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: It's called that because it was adopted in the Danish 35 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: city of Our Hosts. Its official title is the UN 36 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: Convention on Access to Information, Public Participation in Decision Making 37 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: and Access to Justice and Environmental Matters. It falls under 38 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: the United Nations Economic Convention for Europe and it's been 39 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: ratified by forty eight states, including the European Union. As 40 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: you'll hear in this interview, Force points out that because 41 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: it's a convention. There are actual teeth to it, which 42 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: makes things kind of interesting. Specifically, this new position of 43 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: his and the convention that supports it creates a pathway 44 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: for citizens to voice issues that they have with a 45 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: development that will affect them. It also requires that they 46 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: be informed about those developments. So whether it's a building project, 47 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: a mine, oil drilling, really anything that will materially impact 48 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: their environment, they need to be informed about it and 49 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 1: they need to be able to express their opinions on it. 50 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: It also says that it's not enough for people to 51 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 1: be able to voice their displeasure with a particular project, 52 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: they also need to have a legal pathway to do 53 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: something about it. In this interview, Anna asked Force how 54 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: that commitment jives with the increased repression of climate protests 55 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: that we've been seeing around Europe, what he and his 56 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: office might be able to do about that repression, and 57 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: how he thinks cop should address the rights of environmental activists. 58 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: They got into all that and a lot more. I 59 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: think you're going to enjoy this conversation. I'm Ami Westerville 60 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Drilled. After the break, Reporter Anna 61 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: Poujol Mazzini in conversation with Michelle Forced stay with us. 62 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: Hello, Michelle, First, thank you so much for taking the 63 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: time for this interview. So could you start by introducing 64 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 2: yourself and telling me a bit more about your role 65 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: as special Rapture. 66 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 3: Yes, so thank you for the invitation. As you know, 67 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 3: I've been recently appointed to a due more data which 68 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: has been created by steps that are party to the 69 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 3: Orus Convention, which is a very interesting convention ratified by 70 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 3: forty eight states including THEU, based on three pillars. The 71 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 3: first success to information, meaning that in any country which 72 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: is part of the convention, when there is a project 73 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 3: that would affect the environment, then those who might be 74 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 3: affected should be a informed by the state in any 75 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: language that is accessible to the public. The second pillar, 76 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: which is complimentary to the first, is the obligation for 77 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 3: states but to also consulted Communities. Families are people who 78 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 3: are affected by this projector and they would have a 79 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 3: right to say anything on the project, including the right 80 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 3: to say no. It doesn't mean that they could block 81 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 3: the project. At least the would express themselves and say 82 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 3: that they don't agree with the projector. And the last pillar, 83 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 3: which is very irrelevant for the time being is access 84 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: to justice, access to environmental justice, meaning that people have 85 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 3: a writer to go to quote and then to challenge 86 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: any decison made by the state or the company when 87 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,679 Speaker 3: it affects their environment. So the Moundate is mostly directed 88 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 3: to countries that are multitude the Aras convention. But the 89 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 3: beauty of the Moundate, if I may say so, is 90 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 3: that when it's come to companies that operate a broader 91 00:05:55,200 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 3: like companies doing extractive industries or anything that ven and 92 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 3: they have their headquarters in one of the countries which 93 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 3: is part of to our convention, and operated a broader 94 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 3: and then do harm to defend us are broader like 95 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 3: a company based in Madrid working on time oil and 96 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: work in Peru or Columbia and then deforesting, affecting communities 97 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 3: in these people. Then those defenders could have access to 98 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 3: my mound data and that they would speak not to 99 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: the data but to the company itself. So we have 100 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: plenty of cases currently coming to the MOUND data from Africa, 101 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 3: from Alta in America and also from Asia involving companies 102 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: are based in France, in UK, in Switzerland, Norway, other countries. 103 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 3: So that's very new mandata very interesting and we need 104 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 3: to promote the mon date because most of the defenders, 105 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 3: most of the climate activists or environmental defenders don't even 106 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 3: know that they are defenders and that there are currently 107 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 3: mechanisms that could support them or defend them when they 108 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 3: are currently facing threats. And the reason why states have 109 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 3: decided to create this new mound data is presidesly because 110 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 3: they see that in many parts of the world, those 111 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 3: who are the most targeted, the most pressure climate activists. 112 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 3: And of course you know the data provided by global 113 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: witness and frontline defenders and others, and you see that 114 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 3: currently it's only the tip of the iceberg. 115 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: So you're the first raperture for the protection of environmental 116 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: defenders and the position was only created last year. But 117 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: as you say, we know that climate and land defenders 118 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: have been criminalized and even killed for decades. So could 119 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: you talk a bit more about what prompted the creation 120 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: of this role at this particular time. 121 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: As I said, precisely because the state's part to the 122 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 3: convention have been made away on the need to do more. 123 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 3: So there is a strong component on prevention in my 124 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 3: mound data and I'm trying to develop with my team 125 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: also with the support of followers and angiosa and you 126 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: measure to prevent those attacks to occur. The difference between 127 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 3: this mandata and other UN mandata is that while other 128 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: mandates have been created by a resolution adopted by the 129 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 3: Council in Geneva by the UN Rights Council, this man 130 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: data has been created within the legally binding instrumental the Convention, 131 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 3: which has huge implications in the mances to come or 132 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 3: you have to come. The fact that there is a 133 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: mandate created and illegally buying instrumanda as huge implications for stats, 134 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 3: but so for companies because companies that are currently in 135 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 3: one of the countries that are partic to the Convention 136 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 3: also legally binding binded by this by this new human data. 137 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: And so the fact that the mandate is legally binding, 138 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: what does that give you the tools to do to 139 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 2: protect environmental defenders? 140 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 3: It gets more more pressure to the man data where 141 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 3: I'm speaking with ministers traveling two countries, where I'm sending 142 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 3: allegation letters to countries doing that. Then the fact that 143 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 3: defenders are being threatened or under attack. Then the fact 144 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: that the mandate is granted legally reinforces the dialogue with 145 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: the state because they know that it does. It may 146 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 3: have implications like, for instance, if one state would not 147 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 3: fulfill the recommendations expressed by the mound data, then there 148 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: would be also possibilities for the other parties to the 149 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 3: convention to request withdrawal from the states from the convention, 150 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: which in terms of international diplomacy have quite a number 151 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 3: of implications. Could imagine uk on France being expelled from 152 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 3: one of the most relevant convention on environment that would 153 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 3: be complicated for them to face things. And similarly, the 154 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: fact that we are currently in Europe adopting new measures 155 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 3: new legally binding instrument like the Due Diligence arective would 156 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 3: also have implications for companies that are based in Europe 157 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 3: instead would have the obligations to oversee the behavior of 158 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: companies proud like lact Totally Nagen France, or companies from 159 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 3: UK or from other countries Operator and Brew. So it's 160 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 3: too early now to say, but I'm confident that the 161 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 3: more we developed together with lawyers the methods of worker 162 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 3: and we will see the results in aram of states. 163 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 2: Could you maybe give us an overview on what the 164 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 2: situation looks like today in the world for environmental defenders 165 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: and how it's evolved in the past years. 166 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 3: Yes, you know that in the past, I also had 167 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 3: another more data. I used to be the UN Special 168 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 3: appoct on defenders, and when I started with this mondate, 169 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: it was in twenty fourteen. I invited hundreds of defenders 170 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 3: to meet with me in broad consultations in all five continents, 171 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 3: and I was struck by the fact that the people 172 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 3: that came to me where the most at weaks were 173 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 3: precisely environmental defenders. And that's why I decided to develop 174 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: and to present a report in twenty sixteen to the 175 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 3: UN Rance Council on Environmental Defenders to set to state, 176 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: that's the situation that you are facing, and why is 177 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 3: it that you don't respond properly to the needs expressed 178 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 3: by those defenders. You have created mechanism tools to protect them, 179 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: but nonetheless we see that there is an increasing number 180 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 3: of killings of those defenders. And then states under the 181 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 3: leadership of Norway decided to adopt a new resolution on 182 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 3: advantage defenders, which rather a couple of years later, and 183 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 3: there was a way to pave the way for other 184 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 3: states and for the you and for the Lifeline project 185 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 3: to create new tools and modalities to protect advantage unders. 186 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: But nonetheless we see that the situation is quite quite 187 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 3: complicated so now and that's why having this new MAOUN data, 188 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: I'm trying to do the same, that is to organize constultations. 189 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 3: But broadly, I would say that the situation has not improved. 190 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 3: And it's sort of like a battle in which you 191 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 3: see that the more effective the tools are to protect 192 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 3: defenders and the more difficult that the situation is becoming 193 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 3: because states are developed and compared are developing new so 194 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: new new forms of in citius attacks against against enrountered 195 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 3: defenders and climate activists. 196 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 2: So when you're talking about the situation getting worse for 197 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 2: environmental activists and states and other actors developing new tools, 198 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: could you talk a bit more about what that looks like. 199 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, if you if you read the reports 200 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 3: by Global Witness, they would tell you the data of 201 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 3: killings or attacks against defenders is increasing now, it's not diminishing, 202 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 3: despite the fact that we have developed new new measures 203 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: and the new forms of attacks in citius attacks have 204 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 3: been developed by by state using different form of criminalization, 205 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 3: campaigns of feilification against climate activists and environmental defenders, new 206 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 3: forms of attacks, using like anti terrorist laws to target 207 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 3: those who are simply going to the street to protest 208 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: against the inaction of states on climata And that's something 209 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 3: which unfolt need for works in fact, and you see 210 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 3: that the reaction of the public to those new forms 211 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 3: of moradiation is not a big support absolutely. 212 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I've heard you talk in other interviews about 213 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: also this sort of battle of narratives and the violence, 214 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: particularly in France that's used by the government and the 215 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: media against environmental activists. So I'm really interested to get 216 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 2: into that a bit more. What would you say is 217 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 2: driving this increase in the criminalization of environmental defenders, particularly 218 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,359 Speaker 2: in Europe, which your mandate mostly covers. Are there special 219 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 2: interest or interest groups lobbying for these changes? 220 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 3: You know, when I was appointed D two, in fact 221 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 3: I started October twenty two, I decided to travel to 222 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 3: EU countriesa just to present them on data, because it's 223 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: not well known and we need to promote the MOUND data. 224 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: And I've been invited to quite a number of EU 225 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 3: capitals to meet with governments, meeting with ministers, trying to 226 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 3: seek supports of political packing and sometimes funding for the 227 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 3: mound data and at each every occasion traveling to those countries, 228 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: I've been also inviting climate activists and defenders to come 229 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 3: to me to meet with me. I've been asking organizations 230 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 3: to set up meetings to discuss the situation in countries, 231 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 3: to see what is the level of attacks in countries. 232 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 3: And I've been impressed by the fact that what came 233 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: first was civil disobedienza and climate activism. In fact that 234 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: meeting with Greenpeace, meeting with other organizations, then the reservation 235 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: in France or other countries who they had similar organizations. 236 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 3: They all came to me saying that we see that 237 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 3: currently there is a huge pressure on us. The judicial 238 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 3: system does not respond adequately properly to our needs. We 239 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 3: are sentenced to more and more he finds or penalties 240 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 3: or prisons, fines, We are targeted by the police and 241 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 3: sometimes very violently, like in France but also in Germany, 242 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 3: and we don't see a big support from the media. 243 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: The media only reporting on actions taken, but they never 244 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 3: speak on the causes of the action. That is why 245 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 3: we are going to the street to demonstrata and they 246 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 3: only say that we are blocking access to road, putting 247 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 3: in danger other peoples. Blocking the access to hospitals is 248 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 3: not true blocking access to airports, but they don't report 249 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: properly on why we ask climate activists go to the 250 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 3: street to claim for a better response from the state 251 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 3: and what we see currently and daily the increasing climate 252 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 3: crisis and biodiversity crisis, and that's why I've decided to 253 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 3: organize that was in July a first meeting inviting twenty 254 00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 3: seven climate activists from seventeen countries to meet with me 255 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 3: one day, and the idea was to share information and 256 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 3: to read different experiencies coming from from different countries. I 257 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: also invited lawyers and their lawyers to come to the 258 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 3: meeting and to explain why they have been not able 259 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 3: to provide a very effective support to this climate activista. 260 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 3: And the idea of this first workshop was to prepare 261 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 3: a sort of a guidance tool for states to see 262 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 3: whether or not we could find a sort of harmonization 263 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: inside eucontrisa on how states are responding to the new 264 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: news form of mobilization, because what we currently see is 265 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 3: that what happens in France is different from what happens 266 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 3: in Germany or UK or in Norway or Switzerland, which 267 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: is not part of the EU, but we're somewhere also 268 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 3: from from Switzerland and even in countries, and we see 269 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 3: that the response coming from the judgical system is not 270 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 3: the same. If you demonstrate in parent or in to 271 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 3: Los or in Bordeaux, then if you are brought to justice, 272 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 3: you go to quota and you receive different sentences from 273 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 3: the same The system doesn't have that sort of harmonization 274 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 3: of the response to climate activism. Having also been monitoring 275 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 3: trials in courts in different countries to see how the 276 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 3: judges would respond to the needs expressed by the people 277 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 3: to explain the causes of the action and to use 278 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 3: also the criminal code in different ways, and to be honest, 279 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 3: are really struck by the fact that the judges don't 280 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 3: really respond to the needs in some countriesm like in 281 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 3: Franza or Switzerland, or Germany or Norway. Then you see 282 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 3: that judges would decide to sentence, but nonetheless to lift 283 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 3: the sentence, expressing that they have understood the cause and 284 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: why people have decide to break the law continually for 285 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 3: the cause. But nonetheless what is not relevant is that 286 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 3: in a continent or in a group of countries like 287 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 3: the EU, the response coming from from the juditual system 288 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: is different, which is not acceptable. In fact that currently 289 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 3: UK and Germany are the two countries that are the 290 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 3: most difficult for climatativist and those who are using civil disobedience, 291 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 3: and it has in those countries, but also in other 292 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 3: countries the terrent effect I meaning that people are sentenced 293 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 3: to heavy fines and so they would decide not to 294 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 3: continue the action, They would decide to withdraw from the organizations. 295 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 3: So it works from the side of the government. The 296 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 3: more important defines are penalties, then the more people who 297 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 3: decide to withdraw from organizations and would not decide to 298 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 3: continue the fight. 299 00:18:53,960 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 2: That's so interesting. I mean, I wonder what has changed, 300 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: at least in Europe in the past few years to 301 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: pave the way for that increased criminalization and repression of 302 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: environmental activists. And I wonder if you're if you've heard 303 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: of particular political groups or interest groups or sort of 304 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: companies pushing for that repression in order to protect their interest. Well. 305 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: In fact, the reason why we see such an increasing 306 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: number of forms of orbilization in Europe is that young 307 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 3: people are currently the most active and see that the 308 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 3: future is endangered in fact, and that's why they're going 309 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 3: to Sweet to demonstrate and using civil disobedience as a 310 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 3: re action. But on the other side, the reaction from 311 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 3: the States is quite is quite different. I don't I 312 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 3: don't know, but probably companies would talk for each other 313 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 3: in fact, that's that's clear. And I know that governments 314 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 3: are currently also discussing what's happening in that country. Is 315 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 3: a comparing situation, comparing the response from the dulcy system 316 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 3: to those new forms of mobilization. But we don't have 317 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 3: concrete elements to elaborate on LISA. We know that some 318 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 3: companies are putting pressure in UK on the government. We 319 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 3: know that companies are putting pressure in France, like Total 320 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 3: Energy and others on the governments to respond to the 321 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 3: attacks coming from those activists against all those companies. But 322 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 3: we cannot confirm that there are currently sort of European 323 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: mobilization from companies or a network companies that would decide 324 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: to lobby in Europe, in the u R, at that 325 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 3: national level, at domestic level against those new activism. What 326 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 3: I see is that on the media you see more 327 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 3: CONTRIISA people using those new forms of orviization in blocking 328 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 3: the streets, throwing paints in museums or blocking access to 329 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 3: two roads, and they see that it draws the attention 330 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 3: of the public and the media. But at the same 331 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 3: time they complain that the media do not report pop adequately. 332 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 3: They will explain the causes. So it's sort of a 333 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 3: battle which is ongoing in countries in Europe and we 334 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 3: need to monitor. And that's the road that the model has, 335 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 3: to monitor the situation and then to report back to 336 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 3: states and to provide guidance to states to better respond them. 337 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 3: In my workshop in Paris in July, I also invited 338 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 3: that a few activists coming from outside the EU to 339 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 3: see whether or not it's limited in the EU. And 340 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 3: in fact, we have people coming from Georgia, for instance, 341 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 3: from Serbia, which are not party to the EU but 342 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 3: close to the EU, and those countries will tell us 343 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 3: that it's not the case in the countries in fact. 344 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 3: So currently that's very limited to EU countries in fact, 345 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 3: so we need to understand why. 346 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: So when you say this, this seems to be limited 347 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 2: in new countries, is that the civil disobedience techniques or 348 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 2: is that the sort of repressive strategy is used by 349 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 2: states or both. 350 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 3: Both, Because yeah. Of course, the using civil disobedience is 351 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 3: a form of action that is used mostly in new countries. 352 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 3: While in Denmark, for instance, I was struck by the 353 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 3: fact of traveling to Denmark, I think organized a meeting 354 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 3: with climate activists in Denmark. The first thing that they 355 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 3: asked me that was to leave my computer and my 356 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 3: telephone outside of the room because they say we are 357 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 3: under surveillance and were taped in fact, and that's the 358 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 3: first time for many years that have seen that in Europe. 359 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 3: In fat people asking me to put my telephone outside 360 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 3: of the room, and when they came to parties to 361 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 3: my meeting they say the same who decide to leave 362 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 3: all telephone outside of the room? 363 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 2: Wow? And so I find it so interesting. Norway a 364 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: country which is also seeing a lot of time activism 365 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 2: and a lot of civil basibiliens, but not as heavy 366 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: handed a response to it. Would you say that's currently 367 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 2: the country that's best respecting the right of environmental defenders 368 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 2: within your amende. 369 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 3: I would say yes, but it needs to be confirmed 370 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: it was only a workshop. I've also been traveling to 371 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: Norway to also meet with them, and I was struck 372 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 3: by the fact that the situation is quite different from 373 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 3: other countries in near you, but does to be to 374 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 3: be confirmed by a more comprehensive analysis. And that's why 375 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 3: I also have requested the full Amzal Rights Agency. The 376 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 3: fraud based in Vienna are doing studies to study the 377 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 3: legal systems in medic countries and then there are also 378 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 3: doing interviews with beneficial EASA to say where not the 379 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 3: law is respected in the countries. So from I would 380 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 3: also be looking at our current state of legislations in 381 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 3: new countrisa on civil disobedience to see that we need 382 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 3: to harmonize legislations. This is interesting. Is one of the 383 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 3: agencies that reports to the EU, to the Council, to 384 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 3: the Commission and to the Tallement in fact, and that 385 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 3: the role is to guide also the EU institutions on 386 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 3: how to put pressure on states to better respect than 387 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 3: the Charter in fact. So a study coming from the 388 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 3: front will also be a way to complement my own 389 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 3: empedic analysis of the situation, a more scientific observation of 390 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 3: what's happening in EU countries. 391 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: So, since your office was created almost a year ago, now, 392 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 2: what are some of the complaints that you've received? Do 393 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: you have sort of figures do you have examples of 394 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: the complaints people come to you with. 395 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: The practices that with you and special apports. The communications 396 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 3: are kept confidential until they get the become public in fact, 397 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 3: so when I receive a complaint or communication coming from 398 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 3: from a defender, then I'm discussing the side with the 399 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 3: staff while looking to receiving additional information with double shape 400 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 3: information to make sure that we are not malipedated and 401 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 3: the demand that is relevant. And then when we're sure 402 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 3: that the complaint is relevant for the more data, then 403 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 3: we send a communication official communication to the data and 404 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: state have sixty days to reply to my communication in writing, 405 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 3: and then my communication and the response of the data 406 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 3: becomes public on the website. So if you go to 407 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: the website of my man Data, you will see a 408 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: few public communications. The idea of those communications is to 409 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 3: prevent other attacks to occur. That if we deal with 410 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 3: an attack, then stay have a duty not to applicate 411 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 3: or to repeat the attacks the communities. So the idea 412 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 3: is to make sure that those communications will be a 413 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 3: way to prevent attacks. So just have a look. I 414 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 3: will send you the link to those communications. So currently 415 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 3: we civilian communication coming from Climate Activista complaining that they 416 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 3: are been arrested but to justice that the justicism doesn't 417 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 3: fulfill the Internet subligation of the states and that state 418 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 3: have identified convention that they don't respect. We see also 419 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 3: receiving a communication coming from defenders in Latin America having 420 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 3: been attacked by companies based in one of the countries 421 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 3: that is particude the Health Convention. So we are currently yes, 422 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 3: discussing with states, discussing with companies on how we should 423 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 3: follow up on those communications to make sure that things 424 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 3: would not offer and not be worse for defenders. So 425 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 3: different types of communications were also cases like in the 426 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 3: Balkans or Sutral Regia of broad communicy multil blood community 427 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: GISA claiming that their rights to be properly consulted or 428 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 3: to be heard has not been respected by the STATA. 429 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 3: And when it's come to big project like MEGADAMSA, we 430 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 3: have a case of megadam in what countries in Sutra 431 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 3: Relagia and then communities have been affected. So it's more 432 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 3: a sort of a more broad communication coming from a 433 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 3: group of defenders rather than communication coming from one single individual. 434 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 2: For the people who will be listening to the podcast, 435 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 2: what are some of the cases that you're now allowed 436 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 2: to talk about. 437 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 3: I would have a few cases of climate activist like words. 438 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 3: In France, there was a case of a journalist have 439 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 3: been accused of taking part to an action and then 440 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 3: being assimilated to people who are using sipit disabedions was 441 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 3: it was a journalist and then it was arrested by 442 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 3: the police, and then after my letter was sent to 443 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 3: the government, then the government decided to leave the charges 444 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: against him. So that's one of the cases. 445 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 2: Are there's a big question I think surrounding the impact 446 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: that your office can have, and as you say, you 447 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 2: can work with countries that have signed the convention, or 448 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: when companies that are headquarters in countries that have signed 449 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 2: the convention work in other countries. So, since the brand 450 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,479 Speaker 2: of the violence occurs in countries outside of Europe, and 451 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 2: especially against indigenous communities, and since the US and Canada, 452 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 2: which are home to a lot of ecocidal multinationals, are 453 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 2: not part of the convention, how can your office ensure 454 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 2: the protection of these environmental defenders? And so what can 455 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: you do, if anything, with regards to nations that are 456 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 2: not part of the convention, or with regards to multinational companies. 457 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 3: That's precisely if the limitation of the munday in Faifa. 458 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 3: When companies based in Canada, or in China, or in 459 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 3: Russia or in the US and are doing harm to 460 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 3: defend us to communities to induce people, I can do 461 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 3: nothing when I receive a complaint coming content because the 462 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 3: thing that my mondate would be relevanda. Then simply forwarding 463 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 3: to my communication to other modate holders and we have 464 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 3: a good level of communication with other reporters. I would 465 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 3: also report and forward information to the circuit rate of 466 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 3: the Scusial Agreement, which is similar to as Convention but 467 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 3: relevant for the AMERICASA. I would also decide to forward 468 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 3: the information received to the African raporter on defenders, so 469 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 3: we have a network of defenders. And if I'm not 470 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 3: able to take a case, then would refer to the 471 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 3: case to other reporters and similarly some of them would 472 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 3: decide to would pressure on states to do joint communication 473 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 3: with me. That I could also decide to do a 474 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 3: joint communication to a states with the Commission for Emerals 475 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 3: of the Counciler and she also admnuications refers cases to 476 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 3: me because he's traveling a lot countries inside the Council 477 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 3: of Europe. And when she sees that she is approached 478 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: by communities or defenders, then she said there is a 479 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 3: man data which returned to you, and that briefly the 480 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 3: case to you, and then the staff aren't communicating on 481 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 3: the case. 482 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: Do you talk very quickly about the difference between the 483 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: Aras Convention and the Escazio Agreements. 484 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 3: Both our international agreement. They are based on the same pilaza, 485 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 3: the three pilars access to information, public participation, access to 486 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 3: and other justice. So we have the same grounds in fact, 487 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 3: and they pay SISA. But the main difference is that 488 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 3: the Old Convention is a universal convention, meaning that all 489 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 3: states outside of Europe could also ratify the convention, which 490 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 3: is the case for one country in Africa, Guinea Bissau 491 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 3: has decided to join the Old Convention. We are currently 492 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 3: also discussing with other countries in Africa to join the convention, 493 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 3: while the Escausal Agreement is a regional agreement only for 494 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 3: Latin America or for the Americas as a whole in fact. 495 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 3: Now and the other difference is that although the two 496 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 3: agreements and convention have also a strong component on the 497 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 3: protection of defenders. The Arts convernment has decided to establish 498 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 3: a man data of a social partur while it's not 499 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 3: the case for the eskazoog Rementa. And currently yeah, we 500 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 3: are discussing with the Eskazoo Agreement secret area, which is 501 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 3: based in Chile. They monitor the way this mondat is 502 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 3: effective or not, and then they may also decide to 503 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 3: establish original mand data under the Eskazugrimna to also promote 504 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,959 Speaker 3: and protect the defenders in the region. So that's more 505 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 3: or less the main difference where we are working in 506 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 3: fact very closely together. 507 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 2: You've talked a bit about the climate activist tactics of 508 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 2: civil disobedience in the Europe region, and so I think 509 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: a big, big question is the question of non violence. Right, So, 510 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: according to the convention, environmental defenders are only protected if 511 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 2: they are non violent. But given the climate emergency and 512 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 2: the lack of back that peaceful protests have had in 513 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 2: the past decades, we can see that the methods of 514 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 2: environmental activists are evolving to sometimes include sabotage and material destruction. 515 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 2: We're also increasingly seeing states and the media portray these 516 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 2: activists as violent and dangerous, even in cases where that's 517 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: not true. So how do you ensure those activists are 518 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 2: protected and what level of material violence is considered legitimate? 519 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 2: How do you handle the increasing use of sabotage as 520 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: a necessary strategy to stop ecocidal projects. 521 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 3: Yes, you're right, and the question of violence is at 522 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 3: the heart of the more data to the v with 523 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 3: the UA. In fact, that's a question which has been 524 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 3: debated since decades by the UN and by number of states. 525 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 3: And you know that in nineteen ninety eight states that 526 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 3: the UN have decided to adopt a UN Declaration on 527 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 3: Humans Defenders and precisely the close off violence was very 528 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 3: largely discussed by states when adopting this declaration and can 529 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 3: only be recognized as a defender someone who is not 530 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 3: using violence. And in my past Monday, that'd been that 531 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 3: admeduication is confronted by the decision is that violence or not? 532 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 3: And it's each time an adopt decision, a case by 533 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 3: case decision. And for me, since I've been working on 534 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 3: defenders for so many years together with the stuff with 535 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 3: the stuff who, I've adopted a clear definition of the violence. 536 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 3: Violence cannot be against persons or against individuals life unescence. 537 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 3: If you go to a rally or demonstration in sueism, 538 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 3: you are throwing stones to police officers. That for me 539 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 3: violence those people I excluded from from protection. They are 540 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 3: throwing both of cocktails to buildings or that's for me 541 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 3: violence I could not recognize. I mean, I don't challenge 542 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 3: the legislimacy of the cause, but they are not recognized 543 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 3: by me as being humanity defenders. Someone who is responding 544 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 3: to the to the violence by the police. That's something 545 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 3: we see different. If you are in a demonstration and 546 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 3: you are all of a sudden surrounded by police officers 547 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 3: that would decide to beat you violently, and you would 548 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 3: defend yourself in fact, kick the knee of the police 549 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 3: on Yeah, defending yourself, that for me is not violence. 550 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 3: In fact, then that's self defenser and those people could 551 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,240 Speaker 3: be recognized as being defenders. And so that's the limitation 552 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 3: in terms of physical violence. In fact, now when it's 553 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 3: come to violence to property, also a very different approach, 554 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 3: and I would not take as defender someone who is 555 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 3: deliberately using sabotage as a form of action. For me, 556 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 3: that's that's clearly a limitation, But which is something really 557 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 3: completely to describe. That's that's private property. If you would 558 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 3: break the door of a private property to to do 559 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 3: a civil disobedience activity, then for me, that would not 560 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 3: be violence. In fact, that would be a way to 561 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 3: simply open the door too, in a symbolic place, doing 562 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 3: an action which is which will respond to the definition 563 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 3: of civil disobedient. 564 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 2: Some so tresspassing or breaking down a door to get 565 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 2: to private property to protest against a project in a 566 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 2: symbolic way is not considered the violence. But because you are. 567 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 3: Not destroying, in fact, you are not destroying, you are trespassing. 568 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 3: In fact, you are in fact destroying the door maybe 569 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 3: or the barrier. But then you enter a field or 570 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 3: a place in which you decide to publicly use using 571 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 3: a civil disobedience. But it's not it's not it's not 572 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 3: violence for me. While destroying a property, like destroying a 573 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 3: basine like in also that's for me, it's not. I mean, 574 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 3: I would not say it's not acceptable. But those people 575 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 3: could not be recognized as being a defense in factor. 576 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 2: Okay, So in this particular case, so if you're mentioning 577 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 2: the megabasins and the water defenders in France, so. 578 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 4: Those activists who purposely decide to sabotage the installation of 579 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 4: a basin. 580 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: That's they don't come under your mandate. No, clearly no, no, 581 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 2: How do you come to that conclusion? Is that something 582 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,959 Speaker 2: that you're sort of still thinking about and that could 583 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 2: be evolving at some point given the lack of climate 584 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 2: action through peaceful means like is sabotage always out of question? 585 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 3: As as I said, we are monitoring on a case 586 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 3: by case discussion with the staff, but for the time being, 587 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 3: what we call sabotage is something which is not permitted 588 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 3: under the mondate indact I would I would not admit, 589 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 3: but of course we could. We could further discuss with 590 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 3: the stuff. We will see the forms of action, the 591 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 3: new forms of action taken by activists. But for me, 592 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 3: that's clearly currently a strong barrier and I don't want 593 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 3: to currently enter either discussion with the groups to discuss 594 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 3: the validity or legitimacy or sabotage. That would be too 595 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 3: complicate for me. I need to be careful because that's 596 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 3: a new mond aid in fact, so I don't want 597 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 3: to humper the development of the mound data by taking 598 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 3: too premature lead decisions that would then have an impact 599 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 3: and the state would decide to abolish the mandate because 600 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 3: they would see that I'm going too far and then 601 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 3: I'm also boundaries. In fact, the bad reason created by 602 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 3: the resolution that creates my MOND data in twenty twenty 603 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 3: one when the master. 604 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: Was created there. 605 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 3: So my role is to explore, if I may say so, 606 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 3: the boundary results on the data, but not to overlap 607 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 3: the boundaries. In fact, so exploring may also being able 608 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 3: to expand progressively the boundar is. But if I'm going 609 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 3: too fast and I see the danger that state we decide, 610 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 3: oh it's too dangerous, then we albuish the MOND data 611 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 3: would be a disaster for cliinet activities. 612 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 2: In fact, it's probably a question that you're dealing with 613 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: on a near daily basis, which would be like, how 614 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: can I include as many environmental actually this as I 615 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 2: can to protect as many of them without antagonizing states 616 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 2: and multinational companies who might be putting pressure on states 617 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 2: and make my mandate irrelevant. 618 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 3: Right, So if you take the case in France, we 619 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 3: describe the case of the journalist, you know, the case 620 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 3: in fact, there was a group of of activits that 621 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 3: enter I don't know, eh term, whether whether they store 622 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 3: grains yeah, they broke the door. They entered the building 623 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 3: and they opened the sack of grain, and the grain 624 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 3: I mean came to the floor, but nothing the thing 625 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 3: I mean, they did not destroy. It was a sabotage. 626 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 3: In fact, they simply wanted to show that both grains 627 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 3: are genetic, grains are dangerous for the future. And that's 628 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 3: what they did, in fact, simply that they decide to 629 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 3: burn their grains, but simply to open the sack to 630 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 3: show what was in fact the purpose of the action. 631 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 3: And from me, the breaking the door, opening the sack 632 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 3: was not for me violence. In fact, it's way way 633 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 3: for them to express the form of action. 634 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 2: In fact, okay, even though that could technically be considered 635 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 2: you know, material destruction. 636 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 3: And the company was decided to to shoe the activisty 637 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 3: society because they say that it was a destruction of 638 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 3: private property. But if it would go, if I'd been 639 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 3: invited to the court, I would have to explain what 640 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 3: is really diserblit. And so my concern is that in 641 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 3: fact that the courts do not really understand what is 642 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 3: civilis obin. 643 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:13,240 Speaker 2: Some what are the what are the tactics being used 644 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 2: against environmental defenders? I heard you mentioned in an interview 645 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 2: with French media blasts that police forces seem to be 646 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 2: copying one another's methods in dealing with climate protests. Could 647 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 2: you expand on. 648 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 3: That, Yes, I mean that's against that's something which is empetic. 649 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 3: In fact that I don't have evidences on this, but 650 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 3: when I see simply the images on TV of police 651 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 3: forces using the same techniques that are working in one 652 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 3: country and then copy pasting countries, I see that in fact, 653 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 3: that there is a discussion with the police. France is 654 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 3: the countries we had the most violence response by the 655 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 3: police compared to other countries in Europe. But if you 656 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,959 Speaker 3: see remember what they call in Germany this penguin hunt. 657 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 2: In fact there, okay, that's that's when police officers twist 658 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 2: the risk of activists. 659 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 3: Like the penguins in fact. 660 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, so. 661 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 3: They twist the armor. It's very painful. In fact, then 662 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 3: for me it amounts to torture. In fact, now that's 663 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 3: very dangerous and very effective because people, the young people 664 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 3: who are joined, but it puts outside the demonstration say 665 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 3: it's too dangerous, it's too too painful. To me, I 666 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 3: would not do that again in fact now, so the 667 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 3: punishment is effective in fact, and it has been developed 668 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 3: in Germany. And then you see that in other countries 669 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 3: they are using the same technique to simply take people 670 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 3: out of the street where they block access to airports, 671 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 3: use them same technics. So I would say that there 672 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 3: is a form of application. But police officers know pretty 673 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 3: well what is working in other countries. Fortunately they don't 674 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 3: copy paste what's happening in France in fact there because 675 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,919 Speaker 3: that would be too dangerous for other EU countries. In fact, 676 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 3: down using tigers beating violently in a people who are 677 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,879 Speaker 3: simply not even taking part to demonstration, but simply being 678 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 3: industry and like tourists, or simply observing a demonstration. That's 679 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,280 Speaker 3: something which is for me horrendous. 680 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 2: What we're seeing now in our reporting is that climate 681 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 2: activists have always been targeted for you know, decades. They've 682 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 2: been targeted by states and interest groups and companies every 683 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 2: time they've tried to every time they've tried to stop 684 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 2: or prevent more climate damage. But what we seem to 685 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 2: be seeing now is that a lot of Western countries 686 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 2: that are considered democracies are also clamping down on climate activism. 687 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering to what extent do you think that 688 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 2: clam downs on climate activism in Western countries give license 689 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 2: to people seeking to restrict environmental activism in places with 690 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 2: histories of human rights abuse and horror systems of accountability. 691 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's for me about the biggest problem that we 692 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 3: have to face with the French government. In fact, the 693 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 3: problem is the coherence between international action of the French 694 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,800 Speaker 3: government and what's happening at domestic level. In fact, we 695 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 3: see that France and the develop more everyday are putting 696 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 3: huge money to support to activists and defenders and civic 697 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,280 Speaker 3: space in many countries and asking the embassies in countries 698 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 3: also to invite defenders and activists to meet with them. 699 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 3: They provide funding also to activity to groups in those countries, 700 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 3: but at the same time, at domestic level they are 701 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 3: treating people who are going to the street in a 702 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 3: very violent way. So it's not in fact coherent, and 703 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,439 Speaker 3: I see that speaking to other governments in Africa or 704 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 3: Latin America. Then when they discuss with the embassies, they 705 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 3: sometimes refer to the fact that look at the picture 706 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 3: that we are seeing in achieves on how you respond 707 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 3: to demonstration in your country. Why are you criticizing us 708 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 3: in fact? And that's something which has also an impact 709 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,879 Speaker 3: on the image of a country like France at international level. 710 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 3: And that's also explain why in some countries we see 711 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 3: a strong resistance, a strong reaction against against France. And 712 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 3: I'm also looking at how put in other dictators also 713 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 3: referring to a situation in France to simply say what's 714 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 3: happening in our country is not different from what's happening 715 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 3: in Franza. So you see that it's also impact. And 716 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 3: I remember Putting also with a smile, discussing with Macrome 717 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 3: on the fact that when the Yellow Vestas were demonstrating 718 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 3: influence and I was saying, look at us, how you 719 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 3: respond and are you criticizing us in fact? Then of 720 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 3: course they are not killing a defense in Fluenza. But 721 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 3: at the same time they are using also very severe 722 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 3: forms of violence. 723 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's that's fascinating and terrifying at the 724 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:03,399 Speaker 2: same time. 725 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 3: I remember I had in the past a discussion with 726 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 3: the French ambassador to Honduras. I don't want to give 727 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 3: the name or the period, in fact that it was 728 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 3: when I was seen by Monday between twenty fourteen and 729 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 3: twenty twenty traveling to Hondurasa and discussing with the ambassador. 730 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 3: That is likely what he said. In fact, at that 731 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 3: time there was a very violent demonstration in Honduras and 732 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 3: when he tried to explain to the Minister of Tailor 733 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 3: Home Affairs that sometimes the police should behave differently. Then 734 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 3: immediately there was a response from the Minister to the 735 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 3: ambassador saying, guy, look at what's happening in France. 736 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, I had to heard so on the repression. 737 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:49,760 Speaker 2: And again I'm thinking, I'm thinking, particularly about what happened 738 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 2: in France after Sainsolin. Your statements on the use of 739 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,719 Speaker 2: force by police had been very strong worded. I was 740 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 2: surprised by how strong word did they work for an 741 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 2: office link to the UN And how effective do you 742 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 2: think the condemnation of human bodies and special rapertures can 743 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 2: really be importing injustice? How much of the determine can it? 744 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 2: Can it really be if there's no sort of enforcement 745 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 2: mechanisms or actual punishment to go with it. 746 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 3: First of and I would say that my reaction was 747 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,919 Speaker 3: very strong, but I was not the only one having 748 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 3: this reaction coming from internationalization. So we had a similar 749 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 3: reaction coming from the Commission for Emails of the Council 750 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 3: of Europe, so contending Police Valencia the response of the police. 751 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 3: You also had a statement by the new UN a 752 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,400 Speaker 3: High Commissioner for Human Rights on France at the opening 753 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 3: of one other session of the Council, using the same 754 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 3: strong words against, not not against, but to point out 755 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 3: the fire that France was one of the countries which 756 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 3: is currently the most violence against people who are trying 757 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 3: to demonstrate it. So we mean I was not alone. 758 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,800 Speaker 3: It was like we had discussions with the UN on 759 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,720 Speaker 3: how to react, and other reporters also sent a formal 760 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,800 Speaker 3: communication to France, a group of reporters which is public, 761 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 3: also containing the violence response by the police or the 762 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 3: demonstrations in Saint Zolina. So it was like a sort 763 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 3: of a joint action by different organizations, good pressure in France. 764 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 3: So you could say that it doesn't work. In fact, 765 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,280 Speaker 3: that you mean if you read the response by the 766 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 3: French Minister of Interior or Damana saying that this guy 767 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 3: commenting police violence from his office in New York while 768 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 3: I'm based in palist in fact, and it's a sort 769 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 3: of show off position saying we don't care when he's 770 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 3: saying in fact, but when you speak with the internal system, 771 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 3: with the Ministry of an Affairs, with the Ministry of Justice, 772 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 3: you see that is an impact in fact, because they 773 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 3: know that at the end of the day, France will 774 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:05,240 Speaker 3: be called before the u NA at different educations. For instance. 775 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 3: You know, this is what we call the Universal Peridical Review. 776 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,759 Speaker 3: It's a new a new mechanism at the UNA by 777 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,440 Speaker 3: which all states have to come to the UNA and 778 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 3: to explain the situation of human rights in the country. 779 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,919 Speaker 3: And then they received communication recommendations coming from other states 780 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 3: and France every four years, and also to respond to 781 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 3: questions coming from from from from other countries on what's 782 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,240 Speaker 3: happening in France. So it has an impact because they 783 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 3: don't want to hear strong coloration coming from other states, 784 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,840 Speaker 3: because it's an impact also on the reputation of France. 785 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 3: So I'm sure that the publicly again that's a response 786 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 3: of the minister, But at the same time instructions have 787 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 3: been given to ambassadors to monitor what's happening at the 788 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,560 Speaker 3: u N to prepare the next time the next phase 789 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 3: of France examination before the UN mass concerned. So I'm 790 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 3: sure it has an impact. I'm not able to measure 791 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 3: the level end of the impact, but I'm sure that 792 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 3: it has a positive impact. Some public statements from the 793 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 3: UN and from the consider of Europe on France have 794 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,200 Speaker 3: an impact because France is one of the five countries 795 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,480 Speaker 3: members of the Security consider of the UN. So they 796 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 3: have also a duty and obligations to be coherent, which 797 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 3: is not the case so far, but they have an 798 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 3: abligation to do that. 799 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about the situation in France in more detail. 800 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 2: So can you tell me from your perspective what the 801 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,759 Speaker 2: situation has looked like in France recently when it comes 802 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 2: to the rights and the protection of environmental defenders. 803 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,799 Speaker 3: I would say two different situations. Some then at the 804 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,280 Speaker 3: level of the Orders Convention. In addition to the mandate 805 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 3: of special portter, you also what we call the complaints Committee. 806 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,440 Speaker 3: The complaints committee is there to look at how France 807 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 3: would comply with all the profession of the Convention, and 808 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,160 Speaker 3: anyone has the possibility to put a complaint before the 809 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:09,200 Speaker 3: complaints Committee. It's more broadly on lack of access to 810 00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:13,560 Speaker 3: information or lack of public participation. And currently, if you 811 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 3: look at the website of the Complaints Committee. You would 812 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:23,239 Speaker 3: see that there are currently complaints being put forward by 813 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 3: groups like France or by green Peace or by others 814 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,880 Speaker 3: Lay and others. Again the fact that France would not 815 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,399 Speaker 3: comply with all provisions of the older convention. So that's 816 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,360 Speaker 3: for the broad approach on what's how France is approaching 817 00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 3: environmental just the defenders in France. It's not individual cases, 818 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:45,879 Speaker 3: but it could. It gives you a good a good 819 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,240 Speaker 3: idea on what's happening at the level of the complaints 820 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,160 Speaker 3: with the main provisional convention now to come to to 821 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,920 Speaker 3: to activists and to defend themselves, that is individuals orders. 822 00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 3: I mean since I've been appointed, I've been approached by 823 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,839 Speaker 3: men groups in fact in different places in France, from 824 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 3: the Brittany to to Lose in the south of France, 825 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,520 Speaker 3: from the north of France to Strasbourg on different topics 826 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:15,120 Speaker 3: related to unbandle situations or climate division. In fact, people 827 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 3: who are demonstrating against a new issallation or a new project, 828 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:23,840 Speaker 3: up to people who are simply trying to block and 829 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,279 Speaker 3: access to airports or to roads because they want to 830 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 3: publicly explore them their opinion on the inaction of the 831 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:35,160 Speaker 3: government on climate, so different types of situations and what 832 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,799 Speaker 3: I've been seeing and sometimes monitoring myself because I've been 833 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,400 Speaker 3: also traveling to meet with them and to see situations, 834 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,400 Speaker 3: monaturing demonstrations, monitoring trials in court or so that's the 835 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,120 Speaker 3: situation is not improving currently. And as we say it 836 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:54,080 Speaker 3: from the biginning, the sometimes concerted campaigns of vilgifigation by 837 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 3: public officials are also a great impact that is very 838 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 3: unfortunate on the public opinion. And you're a minister and 839 00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 3: then a prime minister and then public officials and members 840 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 3: of parliament calling those people eco terrorist or simply terrorists 841 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:14,799 Speaker 3: or compared them to talibans or to volent actions. Then 842 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,960 Speaker 3: it's not only people who are under pressure by the 843 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 3: cause for with their fighting, which I mean will have 844 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:22,960 Speaker 3: a poll on this in the coming months. Is to 845 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,799 Speaker 3: see the imparct of public vealifation by public officials on 846 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 3: the way the French opinion might be manipulated on climata. 847 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,239 Speaker 3: But it has clearly an impact on the way that 848 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:41,040 Speaker 3: the population is perceiving those for the activism. So the 849 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,360 Speaker 3: situation is not for me a model influenza from the 850 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,520 Speaker 3: response of the police, which is one of the most 851 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 3: violence in Europe and the response of the judgical system 852 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,840 Speaker 3: which is not corregent at all. We have an issue 853 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,399 Speaker 3: influencer with climate activism and civil disobedience, and. 854 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 5: In that in that way, I mean you talk you 855 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 5: talked about climate activists being stigmatized by the media and 856 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,839 Speaker 5: also by by ministers and our police force using. 857 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:16,279 Speaker 2: A disproportionate amount of course on protesters. Is there a 858 00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,799 Speaker 2: French exception in that way when it comes to the 859 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,799 Speaker 2: oppression of climate activism, How does it compare to other 860 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:24,920 Speaker 2: countries in Europe? 861 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,560 Speaker 3: I mean, when it's come to campaigns or fulification or criminalization. 862 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:31,960 Speaker 3: That's not only in France. In fact, you have the 863 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,200 Speaker 3: same level of if you if you look at Germany. 864 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,200 Speaker 3: I was also in Austria in a sort of official visit. 865 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,239 Speaker 3: Then I heard one of the ministry in Austria you 866 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,719 Speaker 3: also the world eco terrorista to qualify people who are 867 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,640 Speaker 3: simply going to the street, people who were other times 868 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,920 Speaker 3: throwing pains or the monument. In fact, in Austria, but 869 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,960 Speaker 3: you see that in UK that are the same. In 870 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,479 Speaker 3: Spain you have the same. In Italy you're the same. 871 00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:02,839 Speaker 3: In all ucuntrivisa. Those campaigns of stigmatics and verification also, yeah, 872 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 3: at the same same level. In fact, now the main 873 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:07,800 Speaker 3: difference is from us in the response of the police, 874 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 3: but in terms of the way politicians are perceiving climacti vista, 875 00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,160 Speaker 3: we have the same the same problem in a country 876 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,440 Speaker 3: with the exception of Norway, again which not EU, but 877 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,000 Speaker 3: the country in Europe. 878 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 2: What what's difference about how the police responds to kind 879 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 2: of activism in France? What sets them apart? 880 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 3: I mean simply the level of violence, the level of violence, 881 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,839 Speaker 3: which is not the case in the UK, Whether they 882 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,880 Speaker 3: have a strong tradition of not being so violencer, not 883 00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,160 Speaker 3: using the same the same methods in Germany, that's the case, 884 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 3: despite the fact that in the past the German police 885 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,919 Speaker 3: has been very violent, but nowadays it's different now in fact, 886 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:52,400 Speaker 3: using as we said, these new forms of violence against 887 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,880 Speaker 3: the demonstration, using this hundriff. They said that, but you 888 00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,200 Speaker 3: don't have strong cheer guards or bettings by the police 889 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,760 Speaker 3: using also bullets against against people who are the most racing, 890 00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:07,000 Speaker 3: which is unique influence and not a model for other countries. 891 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,160 Speaker 2: What do you think explains that? What? Why is the 892 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,800 Speaker 2: French police more violent than its neighbors. 893 00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,120 Speaker 3: It was interesting to hear, especially is discussing the difference 894 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,440 Speaker 3: between the French police and other police. In fact, and 895 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,040 Speaker 3: in the past, there has been a group established by 896 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,160 Speaker 3: the EU inviting police officers to come together to discuss 897 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 3: methods of work reaction to different forms of the motuation. 898 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 3: And France decided not to participate to this group of 899 00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,680 Speaker 3: discussions simply because they said that we have our own 900 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,840 Speaker 3: preciliar way of doing it and we don't want to 901 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,560 Speaker 3: learn from others, so they simply refuse to discuss with others, 902 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,040 Speaker 3: while others coming together decided to adopt new modalities of 903 00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,440 Speaker 3: action and to take the best from the best of 904 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,280 Speaker 3: the police officers in other countries, and France was different 905 00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 3: decided not to put to take part into those discussions. 906 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,200 Speaker 3: So I don't have the name of the group of discussions, 907 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,239 Speaker 3: but if you look into Google you would sign this. 908 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,240 Speaker 3: And if you listen to specialists of the police in France, 909 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,160 Speaker 3: I will also explain that ware situation by which France 910 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:19,080 Speaker 3: woul decided to go alone, saying we have own efficient tradition. 911 00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 2: Okay wow. And in terms of so you're saying, they're 912 00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:31,200 Speaker 2: also quite unique in the amount and the strength of 913 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,000 Speaker 2: the weapons they're using against protesters, right, like rubber belts, 914 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:36,160 Speaker 2: like grenard. 915 00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:42,959 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, tools that they're using which are not used 916 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:48,520 Speaker 3: at all by other governments, and those methods are used 917 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:53,360 Speaker 3: in countries in Africa, sometimes in Latin America using sometimes 918 00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:58,760 Speaker 3: little weapons to target demonstration. But yeah, that's that's unique 919 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,799 Speaker 3: in Europe and which is not only for me but 920 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,239 Speaker 3: for the UNA a great matter of concern. 921 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:10,759 Speaker 2: I like to go back to October twenty twenty two, 922 00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:17,800 Speaker 2: so you've just sort of started, as you and special 923 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:25,440 Speaker 2: rapperature on environmental defenders, there's the first major protest against 924 00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,520 Speaker 2: water basins in some sort and our Interior Minister Gerald 925 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:38,000 Speaker 2: d'ermenon labels climate activists, eco terrorists. How do you feel? 926 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,720 Speaker 3: I mean, I feel not well at all because I 927 00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 3: still had with me the image of what is terrorists 928 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,920 Speaker 3: In fact, now people who have been brutally killed in 929 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,360 Speaker 3: France by by terrorists, and comparing people who are simply 930 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,520 Speaker 3: and non violently going to the street to demonstrate for 931 00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,600 Speaker 3: a better future for our planet to terrorist but for 932 00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,040 Speaker 3: me difficult to understand. And yeah, that's that's a pity 933 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,440 Speaker 3: that I mean, as we say in France, a minister 934 00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:05,600 Speaker 3: should not say. 935 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:09,800 Speaker 2: That, right, I mean, especially you're as a French person 936 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,280 Speaker 2: as well, sort of having you know that that memory 937 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:16,160 Speaker 2: of twenty fifteen and actual terrorism being. 938 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,000 Speaker 3: Exactly ye same same. When I hear what I hear 939 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:24,400 Speaker 3: other ministers other countries compare them to to Talibans, and 940 00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:27,800 Speaker 3: you look at the situation of Talibans in Afghanistan and 941 00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:33,880 Speaker 3: how they treat women and other people, I mean, I mean, well, 942 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,840 Speaker 3: what does it mean to compare climate activists to talibans 943 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,760 Speaker 3: or even because I'm not youre not young, but I've 944 00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,920 Speaker 3: also heard the ministers in other countries compare them to 945 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:49,000 Speaker 3: to green crags like in Camboja and Camboja that's a 946 00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,120 Speaker 3: general cider two million people being being killed by the 947 00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 3: government and comparing and comparing innocent people simply going to 948 00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,920 Speaker 3: the streets non violently to green prayers. That's difficult to 949 00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:06,240 Speaker 3: rationally to understand why someone educated at the level of 950 00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,919 Speaker 3: a minister could go public with those statements. I mean, 951 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,160 Speaker 3: that's simply not easy to understand for me and for 952 00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:14,600 Speaker 3: others in fact. 953 00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:23,720 Speaker 2: And so sticking to that topic of defamation campaigns you 954 00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:30,160 Speaker 2: mentioned you mentioned in another interview that as you and 955 00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:35,280 Speaker 2: special aperture. You were particularly targeted by French politicians for 956 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:40,040 Speaker 2: I think it was probably denouncing what had happened in Sainzolin, 957 00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,360 Speaker 2: but that people were sort of calling in to question 958 00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:42,960 Speaker 2: your office. 959 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. I was not targeted. I was simply 960 00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:49,400 Speaker 3: mocked by a minister and by others saying saying by that, 961 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:51,320 Speaker 3: what is it that this guy based in New York 962 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,600 Speaker 3: would comment simply on the basis of videos what was 963 00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:58,560 Speaker 3: happening in Sanzolin. But it was not really a campaign 964 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,440 Speaker 3: of deformation or campaign against me. In fact, that simply 965 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,920 Speaker 3: a minister mocking me. At the same time, he was 966 01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,880 Speaker 3: not there as well, he was not was in his 967 01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:11,400 Speaker 3: office as his minister also looking at videos of what's 968 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,120 Speaker 3: happening in Santolin. So he was so commented from from 969 01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,360 Speaker 3: his office while he was commenting from my office. In fact, now, 970 01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:19,320 Speaker 3: so's to compare. 971 01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,880 Speaker 2: Is that a first for you as a UN special 972 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:29,840 Speaker 2: rapperture being mocked by a government minister. I mean that's okay, 973 01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,480 Speaker 2: because that seems like quite a great length to go 974 01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:35,280 Speaker 2: to to discredit the U. 975 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,320 Speaker 3: N No, that's that's a that's a I would not 976 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,520 Speaker 3: say a common practice. But I've been also in the past, 977 01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,720 Speaker 3: but in other countries in fact, like for instance the 978 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:47,480 Speaker 3: case of Azerbaijan doing an official visit to as a Baijan. 979 01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:49,680 Speaker 3: But it's need to compare as a Bijan in France. 980 01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:53,800 Speaker 3: In fact, that the vice president of Azerbaijan saying that 981 01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:58,240 Speaker 3: mister Frank should be of Armenian origin because he was 982 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,960 Speaker 3: so violent against our country. And of course I'm not 983 01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,080 Speaker 3: at all Armenian. But hearing a vice president trying to 984 01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,400 Speaker 3: defame me by by, I mean, that's interesting to compare 985 01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,040 Speaker 3: reaction by Azabeijian and reaction by by a French ministry. 986 01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:16,040 Speaker 3: In fact, we're the same, the same in Columbia, Honduras, Peru. 987 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:18,840 Speaker 3: And that's when you are going public on what's happening 988 01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,720 Speaker 3: in the country as a un official and then you 989 01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,160 Speaker 3: are used to receive that sort of response. 990 01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:31,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, after the water protests at Samsonin you and other 991 01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,520 Speaker 2: officials came together to say that the the response of 992 01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:41,120 Speaker 2: the state and the police had been largely disproportionate. How 993 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:43,640 Speaker 2: how did you come to that conclusion. Can you tell 994 01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,520 Speaker 2: me a bit more about what happened at Sainsulin from 995 01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:48,760 Speaker 2: your perspective. 996 01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,280 Speaker 3: Yes, simply, I mean I decided to interview witnesses, eyewitnesses 997 01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:56,240 Speaker 3: and journalists. Also people who were there had a meeting 998 01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,280 Speaker 3: with members of the EU Parliament when Sancholin or so 999 01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,520 Speaker 3: to discuss with and what's happening. Also looked at that 1000 01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,320 Speaker 3: many videos from from the media on the on the 1001 01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,240 Speaker 3: response of the police, on the violence, and when I 1002 01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,600 Speaker 3: decided to comment and say that it was disproposality, it 1003 01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,880 Speaker 3: was based on my interviews and my monitoring of videos, 1004 01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:19,720 Speaker 3: and I remember very well one of the videos showing 1005 01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:26,360 Speaker 3: a high rank official Geordan Francis uh looking from the 1006 01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:30,240 Speaker 3: form the from the hill saying their from gas to 1007 01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,520 Speaker 3: the wrong part of the demonstration, while people who are 1008 01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,000 Speaker 3: targeted were not the people who were violent, but I 1009 01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,400 Speaker 3: mean it was it was, yeah, not well prepared. 1010 01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:43,360 Speaker 2: I've heard you speak about the FNSUL before and sort 1011 01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:47,800 Speaker 2: of also their actions to impede freedom of speech of 1012 01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:53,920 Speaker 2: climate activists. Can you talk a bit about the political 1013 01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:58,720 Speaker 2: and corporate interests that you're seeing behind the violence against 1014 01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:00,480 Speaker 2: climate activists in France. 1015 01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,040 Speaker 3: Yes. What I meant praising the situation of the FNESR 1016 01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,840 Speaker 3: and France is that it's difficult to understand that when 1017 01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,800 Speaker 3: you compare to two types of action using the same 1018 01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,400 Speaker 3: methods to see that climate activists would be immediate putting 1019 01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:16,480 Speaker 3: in question by the police or by the DIDY system 1020 01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:20,560 Speaker 3: being brought to justice. While when it comes to big 1021 01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:24,120 Speaker 3: interest like the FESUL close to the big farmers in France, 1022 01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:28,120 Speaker 3: everything they do, they I mean, there's no consequences at all. 1023 01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 2: When when the finest so which is the largest sort 1024 01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:35,280 Speaker 2: of one of the largest unions of farmers in France 1025 01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,680 Speaker 2: and sort of which is also protecting the interest of 1026 01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:45,040 Speaker 2: commercial and huge agriculture agro business, and they've conducted quite 1027 01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:46,440 Speaker 2: a lot of I mean, they've been linked to a 1028 01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:50,920 Speaker 2: lot of actions in France of attack against climate activists 1029 01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:52,240 Speaker 2: and journalists, but also. 1030 01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,560 Speaker 3: Attacks against against public buildings. In fact, I would not 1031 01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:56,240 Speaker 3: say that in It, I could say that English. 1032 01:03:56,240 --> 01:04:02,880 Speaker 2: But the yeah, like launching like sort of sending like 1033 01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:04,480 Speaker 2: houses compounds. 1034 01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:09,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, allowed launching passive compounds before public officials or before 1035 01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:14,240 Speaker 3: big buildings and no consequences at all. The municipality that 1036 01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,480 Speaker 3: would clean the building, would clean the streets, and no 1037 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:22,440 Speaker 3: consequences at all for these demonstrations, while other activists using 1038 01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,080 Speaker 3: less severe forms of faction would be immediately arrested by 1039 01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,880 Speaker 3: the police and bulk to justice. So the different type 1040 01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,720 Speaker 3: of corporation, and that's that's something which is striking in 1041 01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,040 Speaker 3: the country like France. I could not say that from 1042 01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:36,480 Speaker 3: other countries because I'd be able to monitor that in 1043 01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:40,280 Speaker 3: other countries. But in France that the case, some commercial 1044 01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:44,840 Speaker 3: interest or some have an impact on the way the 1045 01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:49,240 Speaker 3: French officials are reacting to the mobilization of climate with vism, 1046 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,480 Speaker 3: and that because because they see that in the case 1047 01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,960 Speaker 3: of the megabazines, if the system would not allow anymore 1048 01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,760 Speaker 3: thegabacines to be to be constructed or built, then it 1049 01:04:59,920 --> 01:05:02,240 Speaker 3: was an impact on the agriculture in France. 1050 01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:07,080 Speaker 2: Just the last question, you mentioned COP at the beginning 1051 01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:13,240 Speaker 2: of this interview. Do you expect the persecution of climate 1052 01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:19,000 Speaker 2: protesters to come up at COP or do you plan 1053 01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:20,720 Speaker 2: to push for that to happen. 1054 01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,720 Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, we don't expect during the COP 1055 01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:28,480 Speaker 3: climative is to be to be punished or to be persecuted. 1056 01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,920 Speaker 3: What we expect is that many of them would not 1057 01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:34,360 Speaker 3: be allowed to travel to Dubai for obvious reasons. It 1058 01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,000 Speaker 3: was also the case in Shaman shake in Egypt the 1059 01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:40,280 Speaker 3: last time, so that's one of the first but the 1060 01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,080 Speaker 3: main concern that I have together with the Group of 1061 01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:47,680 Speaker 3: Engios is that climate action is not only a matter 1062 01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:50,800 Speaker 3: for golf Mansa, and it should be also a matter 1063 01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,560 Speaker 3: of discussion with the population and especially those who are 1064 01:05:54,560 --> 01:06:00,320 Speaker 3: affected by climate pack climate change. And although we see 1065 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:05,040 Speaker 3: that in May countries in Europe, organizations are invited to 1066 01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:10,120 Speaker 3: discuss with the government on the negotiation coming to during 1067 01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,880 Speaker 3: the COPPA, it's not the case for many countries in 1068 01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:17,320 Speaker 3: fact now and what we want to achieve is the 1069 01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:21,840 Speaker 3: better understanding on why is it important for all governments 1070 01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,920 Speaker 3: to invite to the table those who are affected by 1071 01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,640 Speaker 3: a climate change and not only to invite them to 1072 01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:32,840 Speaker 3: be part of formal leader delegation and to have one 1073 01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,640 Speaker 3: or two of them alibi in the delegation, but to 1074 01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:40,320 Speaker 3: discuss more in detail the outcome document proud to the 1075 01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,440 Speaker 3: conference and then after the conference when it comes to 1076 01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:47,240 Speaker 3: the implication and the inaction in the countries. 1077 01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:52,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess to come back to the 1078 01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:59,960 Speaker 2: protection of environmental defenders. In what ways could these international 1079 01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:05,400 Speaker 2: climate negotiations be leveraged for the protection of protests. I mean, 1080 01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:08,400 Speaker 2: we know that this is always mentioned at coups, but 1081 01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:13,680 Speaker 2: will you push for some sort of like official inclusion 1082 01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,800 Speaker 2: and commitments, for example, particularly in the context of the 1083 01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:19,200 Speaker 2: UAE hosting the Cup. 1084 01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:24,320 Speaker 3: Yes, since the Paris Agreement, we see that climate defenders 1085 01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:28,200 Speaker 3: romant devers are mentioned in the outcome documents were simply 1086 01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,120 Speaker 3: mentioned in the first part of the DOCUMENTA, but in 1087 01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:35,880 Speaker 3: the operative part, which contains decisions by the KOPPA, they 1088 01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:38,800 Speaker 3: are never in fact mentioned. So what we need to 1089 01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:43,040 Speaker 3: achieve is more concrete commitments by STATSA, not going to 1090 01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:47,760 Speaker 3: include strong wording on defenders in the outcome documents, but 1091 01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:52,080 Speaker 3: concrete commitments by STATSA to do more on defenders. Because 1092 01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:55,000 Speaker 3: we see and that's how we started the interview that 1093 01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:58,360 Speaker 3: in so many contweisas they are the most TWISKA and 1094 01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:02,360 Speaker 3: in the context of the meetings, that's a place where 1095 01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,360 Speaker 3: those things are to be discussed, but not only discuster 1096 01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:11,080 Speaker 3: or concretely, discussions should lead to concrete decisions by states 1097 01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:15,040 Speaker 3: to better protect defenders but also to prevent the attacks 1098 01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:18,320 Speaker 3: in fact worker in countries. So we are working together 1099 01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:22,360 Speaker 3: with a group of endios on different options possibilities to 1100 01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:23,240 Speaker 3: achieve that goal. 1101 01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's something that you're going to push at 1102 01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:32,640 Speaker 2: the next negotiations. Yes, brilliant. Thank you so much for 1103 01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,240 Speaker 2: taking all that time to speak to me. I know 1104 01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,240 Speaker 2: that was a long interview, that there are so many 1105 01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,000 Speaker 2: things to talk about. Is there anything that I didn't 1106 01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,080 Speaker 2: ask you about that you'd like to say? 1107 01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,080 Speaker 3: Maybe? I just would like to maybe to briefly comment 1108 01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,320 Speaker 3: on my definition of civil disobedience, which is something that 1109 01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,320 Speaker 3: I'm trying to promote when I'm managing a TRY in 1110 01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:56,640 Speaker 3: France or I TRY in Germany in fact, so that 1111 01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:00,200 Speaker 3: judges will understand that cevie disobedience in fact is coord 1112 01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:05,640 Speaker 3: by international emails law, and they sometimes ignore that is 1113 01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:09,920 Speaker 3: the case. You have clearly definition, but curlier statement by 1114 01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:13,960 Speaker 3: the Emails Committee you and Humans Committee commenting on public 1115 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:17,519 Speaker 3: demonstration and saying that civil the business is covered by 1116 01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:21,559 Speaker 3: Article twenty one of the Internal Covenant on Civilian Particular Rights, 1117 01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:25,800 Speaker 3: and for me, civil obidiness respond to four criterion. Fact time, 1118 01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:30,679 Speaker 3: it should be first public, It's not be in one 1119 01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:33,439 Speaker 3: apartment or a flat. It should be public just to 1120 01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:36,639 Speaker 3: show that there's the cause behind it. The second element 1121 01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:41,680 Speaker 3: is that the people who are participating to civil disobilience 1122 01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:46,960 Speaker 3: activities should understand that they're breaking the law, prepared to 1123 01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:52,479 Speaker 3: face a trial before the just system. The third demand 1124 01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:56,480 Speaker 3: it should be non violent and we have largely discussed 1125 01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:01,240 Speaker 3: my approach to violencer. And the last elementa it should 1126 01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:06,040 Speaker 3: be to fight for a causa, that is to abolish law, 1127 01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:09,599 Speaker 3: to abolish of practicer, to abolish a civil sot of 1128 01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,559 Speaker 3: a public policy which might be dangerous or contrary to 1129 01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:18,800 Speaker 3: huven resstandarza. And when those four elements are contained in 1130 01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:21,639 Speaker 3: an action of civil evins for meda and they should 1131 01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,559 Speaker 3: not be punished by the law, but justice system should 1132 01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:28,320 Speaker 3: understand that it's covered by internally very slow and that's 1133 01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:30,280 Speaker 3: the case the correction and that's a pity. 1134 01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:35,360 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Big thanks to Anna for 1135 01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,280 Speaker 1: bringing us this interview. She'll be back soon with an 1136 01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,879 Speaker 1: episode on how climate protest is being repressed in France, 1137 01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:46,040 Speaker 1: so stay tuned for that. Drilled is an original Critical 1138 01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:50,200 Speaker 1: Frequency production. This episode was written and reported by Anna 1139 01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:54,719 Speaker 1: Poujol Mazzini. Our senior editor for this season is Aline Brown. 1140 01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,760 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Martin saltz Ostwick, who also does 1141 01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:03,240 Speaker 1: our sound design. Mixing and mastering by Peter Duff. Mood 1142 01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:06,120 Speaker 1: an Yan is our fact checker. Our artwork is by 1143 01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:10,280 Speaker 1: Matt Fleming. Our first Amendment attorney is James Wheaton. The 1144 01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:13,599 Speaker 1: show was created by me Amy Westervelt. You can find 1145 01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:17,320 Speaker 1: related videos, photos, and print stories for this series, along 1146 01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:19,800 Speaker 1: with all of the documentation we have to go along 1147 01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:23,200 Speaker 1: with it, at Drilled dot Media. You can also sign 1148 01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:25,960 Speaker 1: up there for our weekly newsletter. We round up the 1149 01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:28,400 Speaker 1: top five stories on climate that you should be reading 1150 01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:33,000 Speaker 1: each week and include some analysis of various trends. It 1151 01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,400 Speaker 1: never takes more than ten minutes to read, and people 1152 01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,080 Speaker 1: tell us it helps them stay on top of climate 1153 01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:42,200 Speaker 1: info without getting overwhelmed by the fire hose of stories. 1154 01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:45,680 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Twitter at we Are 1155 01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:49,479 Speaker 1: Drilled and on LinkedIn under drilled Media. If you'd like 1156 01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,680 Speaker 1: to support the podcast, leaving us a rating or a 1157 01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:56,479 Speaker 1: review actually really helps us find new listeners. You can 1158 01:11:56,479 --> 01:12:00,160 Speaker 1: also support us financially by becoming a subscriber, either to 1159 01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:04,320 Speaker 1: the newsletter or to the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or Patreon. 1160 01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:09,400 Speaker 1: Paid subscribers get access to add free episodes, early release episodes, 1161 01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:13,760 Speaker 1: and bonus content. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you 1162 01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:14,280 Speaker 1: next time.