Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sense Podcast.
Speaker 1: My guest today is artist producer shootor Jenny Shooter. Good
Speaker 1: to be here with you, man, Good to be here
Speaker 1: with you. I understand. I's got to start by saying,
Speaker 1: I owe you an apology because I guess I said
Speaker 1: something about you on Twitter years ago, and I don't
Speaker 1: know what I said because I love you. I think
Speaker 1: you're a fantastic voice, and I love your letter. So
Speaker 1: I don't know what I said, but whatever I said,
Speaker 1: I'm sure who knows what I was thinking at the time,
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry. Well, you and the mother of your
Speaker 1: children were going on, but you were very nice about it.
Speaker 1: Let's call that history. So okay, everybody in your life,
Speaker 1: like your wife, etcetera, they all call you shooter or
Speaker 1: do they call you something else? They all call me shooter.
Speaker 1: I mean my wife Misty calls me s J sometimes,
Speaker 1: but otherwise Shooter it is. It was always I used
Speaker 1: to say, cops and uh, substitute teachers would call me
Speaker 1: Whalen because it's just on my I D and that's
Speaker 1: what my name is. But everyone else has always called
Speaker 1: me shooter. Okay, so what are you working on right now. Man,
Speaker 1: I've been working on a lot of records that you know,
Speaker 1: I've kind of changed my focus a bit, which I
Speaker 1: I I'm very happy with. I kind of always wanted
Speaker 1: to get into production, had been doing it here and there,
Speaker 1: but we really wanted to move towards that and really
Speaker 1: in a you know, being on the road for so
Speaker 1: many years, and while I've enjoyed it, I've always felt
Speaker 1: like I kind of plateaued in different spots it and
Speaker 1: and to be able to start working on records really
Speaker 1: brought out a different joy. And now I've kind of
Speaker 1: fast tracked that as my primary focus. So I'm working
Speaker 1: on a lot of records. I just finished a record
Speaker 1: on a band from Reno called hell Bound Glory, and
Speaker 1: I started I'm starting another record on Tanya Tucker in January,
Speaker 1: are second one, and and just kind of we just
Speaker 1: you know, did Brandy did, a guy named av Kaplan,
Speaker 1: Kelsey Walden, bunch of artists. I'm just kind of every
Speaker 1: month doing records if I can. So why did you
Speaker 1: always want to be a producer? Well, It's funny because
Speaker 1: it's weird because like when I was young, I didn't
Speaker 1: really realize how much I I really had a head
Speaker 1: for for that part of the business. When I was young,
Speaker 1: I set up a studio at my house where I
Speaker 1: grew up at my my mom dad's house in Nashville,
Speaker 1: because I wanted to be in a band. And I
Speaker 1: was really inspired by nine Inch Nails because when I
Speaker 1: was a computer kid and I was a keyboard kid,
Speaker 1: and uh I when that when I really discovered nine
Speaker 1: inch Nails and discovered that Trent Resider was doing a
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff by himself, Like it was really
Speaker 1: inspiring to me because I was like, hey, I could
Speaker 1: I could probably learn to do this. I'm really into computers.
Speaker 1: I played piano, I played drums a little bit in
Speaker 1: a little guitar, you know. So I started doing like
Speaker 1: kind of like programming and making full productions at home.
Speaker 1: And I had a couple of friends that were guitar
Speaker 1: players because I wasn't a very good guitar player, so
Speaker 1: they would be in my band and they would play tar,
Speaker 1: and I would like program drums and things and and
Speaker 1: I was always really focused on the on the production
Speaker 1: layering and all that. And but in my heart, I
Speaker 1: was I was young. I was like eighteen nineteen, you know,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to be in a band, so, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I felt like, well, this is how you
Speaker 1: do it, all right, And and so I moved to
Speaker 1: l A and and kind of got away from the
Speaker 1: programming side, had a live band, and we we tried
Speaker 1: real hard to get a deal and breakthrough and didn't
Speaker 1: really ever get a big deal or anything. And then
Speaker 1: I decided to kind of do my solo thing, and
Speaker 1: I just went down that path for a long time.
Speaker 1: And I met Dave Cobb very early on in that
Speaker 1: and he we did like seven records together, and he
Speaker 1: taught me so much about like because I hear I
Speaker 1: was coming from this industrial side, and he was like
Speaker 1: this Beatles guy, Like he knew everything about the Beatles.
Speaker 1: And I always say he put the he brought the
Speaker 1: Beatles into country music like nowadays, because so much of
Speaker 1: his mindset was the Beatles and the Faces and all
Speaker 1: this kind of that era English rock, you know. And
Speaker 1: so he taught me so much about gear Like I
Speaker 1: I just really didn't know anything about Abbey Road and
Speaker 1: I and Mine and Chandler. So and it took me
Speaker 1: a while to actually become a gearhead because I was
Speaker 1: still in the band. He was my producer, you know,
Speaker 1: and we we would kind of barrel along. And when
Speaker 1: he when he moved to Nashville, I didn't want to
Speaker 1: work with anybody else because I loved Dave, like still
Speaker 1: to this day. He's he's like a brother to me.
Speaker 1: And and so I decided, you know, I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: gonna start doing my own records. And I and I
Speaker 1: did um self produced uh two records of Mine Family
Speaker 1: Man and the Other Life, Other Life, and uh, then
Speaker 1: I started At that point, I there was a lot
Speaker 1: of other bands that I liked out there in this
Speaker 1: kind of burgeoning scene that later became like you know,
Speaker 1: the Isbels and all these guys. But there was like
Speaker 1: all these bands like uh, Scott h Biram and hell
Speaker 1: Bound Glory and this band called Fifth on the Floor
Speaker 1: from Kentucky, and and they were all kind of making
Speaker 1: this great music, but they the records were like home spun,
Speaker 1: you know. And so I started to say, like, hey,
Speaker 1: maybe I could get into working with some of these
Speaker 1: these other artists. They're like my age and and try
Speaker 1: and like use what I had learned with Dave and
Speaker 1: along the way to make good records on him, you know,
Speaker 1: And it was hard to kind of break into that.
Speaker 1: But I got to do a couple of records and
Speaker 1: Jason Boland asked me to do a record on him.
Speaker 1: He was the first person to ever asked me to
Speaker 1: produce a record. And that was many years ago. It
Speaker 1: was like two thousand twelve. We did a record and
Speaker 1: it kind of started there. And then I met this manager, Um,
Speaker 1: this guy that who became my manager. His name was
Speaker 1: John Hensley. He passed away about five years ago, but
Speaker 1: he um, he became like my best friend and and
Speaker 1: he he was younger than me, but he really took
Speaker 1: me under his wing to give me a different kind
Speaker 1: of confidence. Um, because I had coming. I'm sorry to
Speaker 1: ramble so much by no great keep going okay, okay, Um,
Speaker 1: well John, you know like part of it. There was
Speaker 1: like a kind of mental struggle with the whole like
Speaker 1: be being Wayland's son thing, because I always not I
Speaker 1: had no problem with it, Like my dad was a
Speaker 1: great dad and we were very close and there was
Speaker 1: no like riff for like any bitterness. But I think
Speaker 1: I always felt like I had to be like a
Speaker 1: certain way being his son, no matter what it was,
Speaker 1: no matter how my career works. So John kind of
Speaker 1: taught me like, don't do so many interviews. You don't
Speaker 1: have to like you don't have to like be nice
Speaker 1: to everybody, you have to go do everything like and
Speaker 1: he kind of taught me how to like pull back
Speaker 1: and he goes. And he also said, you know, you
Speaker 1: need to be producing records. And he wanted to start
Speaker 1: a label like we like Jack Whites, you know, third
Speaker 1: Man Records, And at the time, there was a lot
Speaker 1: of other people kind of popping up, like Ryan Adams
Speaker 1: had his pack Sam and and he was like, we
Speaker 1: can do that. Let's do that. And so me and
Speaker 1: him started a label and then we started doing these
Speaker 1: projects and they weren't like high profile projects or anything,
Speaker 1: but we there were some cool ones that that got
Speaker 1: mixed in there, Like I there was the thing with
Speaker 1: Billy Ray Cyrus that was really fun, and did a
Speaker 1: thing with like McK foley that was like a Christmas
Speaker 1: album that him and his son did. And we did
Speaker 1: all these kind of seven inches and kind of you know,
Speaker 1: fun record store day projects, and he just really encouraged
Speaker 1: me to keep producing and doing things like that. So
Speaker 1: like as that started happening, I did this record of
Speaker 1: my own because I was starting to get really experimental
Speaker 1: and I did this record called Coon Tosh. It was
Speaker 1: like a tribute to Georgio Moroder. And I had met
Speaker 1: Brandy Carlisle in two thousand and twelve and we had
Speaker 1: instantly hit it off. And I and she had these
Speaker 1: tattoos on her arms that are the logo from the
Speaker 1: never Ending Story and I'm a kid. I'm kind of
Speaker 1: like the guy who's like trapped in his childhood, like
Speaker 1: but by my own making. And I like it, you know.
Speaker 1: But um so I loved that and we when I
Speaker 1: was doing this Georgio Moroder record, Georgio wrote the never
Speaker 1: Ending Story theme song. So I reached out to Brandy
Speaker 1: and said, would you would you be on this album?
Speaker 1: Like if you would, if you would be on this album,
Speaker 1: I would put this out on my record. I put
Speaker 1: the everything story on there, you know. And she did
Speaker 1: it and we put it on the record, put it
Speaker 1: out and everything. And then she called me and she said,
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but I want you
Speaker 1: to be involved in my next record. I want you
Speaker 1: to help produce it. And I said, man, I was like,
Speaker 1: this is the opportunity of a lifetime for me. Because
Speaker 1: I loved her, and I was like, I would love to,
Speaker 1: and she goes, do you know Dave Cobb And I
Speaker 1: go yes, I said, we've done seven records together. We've
Speaker 1: we've done We're like brothers. Yeah, and she goes, well,
Speaker 1: I want you both to do my record, and and
Speaker 1: me and Dave hadn't worked together and in several years,
Speaker 1: so I was like it was like a she brought
Speaker 1: us back together in a way, and and uh, and
Speaker 1: it was just that kind of kicked the doors open.
Speaker 1: Then after that, like Duff mccagan and Marilyn Manson and
Speaker 1: asked me to do their records, and and then um,
Speaker 1: Tanya Tucker was my my project because I was I
Speaker 1: was working with her, but I wanted to produce her.
Speaker 1: I had heard her sing on something I was producing.
Speaker 1: I had had her sing on it, and I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: she's so good still, She's just got it. And I
Speaker 1: asked her I want to do a record, and and
Speaker 1: I just kind of briefly mentioned it to Brandy after
Speaker 1: we had done her record and everything, and and she said,
Speaker 1: oh God, I loved Tanny Tucker. She's my favorite. I
Speaker 1: used to sing all these songs and I go well,
Speaker 1: why don't you co produce it with me? If you
Speaker 1: I don't know all of her songs, I love Tanya,
Speaker 1: but if you know all of her songs, you know
Speaker 1: her voice, then let's let's do this together, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of kicked that off, and then like
Speaker 1: everything kind of happened, and then I started being asked
Speaker 1: to do a lot of records and and it just
Speaker 1: it made it fulfilled something that I didn't realize it
Speaker 1: was yearning I was yearning for, you know, because I've
Speaker 1: been getting really worn out being away from my kids
Speaker 1: and traveling on the road and kind of playing clubs
Speaker 1: NonStop and and and doing one record maybe two records
Speaker 1: a year. And to be able to do like all
Speaker 1: these records constantly and work with other artists and like
Speaker 1: their ideas and their visions and try and make them happen,
Speaker 1: it like unlocked this side of me. That that was,
Speaker 1: like I didn't realize was so fulfilling. And so after
Speaker 1: that it was kind of like, I want to do
Speaker 1: this constantly, and I but I thought, okay, five years,
Speaker 1: five years, I'll be able to get off the road
Speaker 1: and do it. And then the pandemic hit and it
Speaker 1: like fast tracked the entire process, and even though it
Speaker 1: was a horrible thing for the world, it was very
Speaker 1: good for my emotional state in creative state because it
Speaker 1: kind of opened fast tracked my my dreams, you know.
Speaker 1: So there you go in a nutshell. No, that's a
Speaker 1: great that's a great overview. So how did you actually
Speaker 1: meet Dave Cobb? Uh? Well, so I had made some
Speaker 1: demos for what would be my first record, put the
Speaker 1: Obacky Country with UM the band there. I met him
Speaker 1: here in l A. Uh the band guys, and we
Speaker 1: put together a band and we've written all these songs
Speaker 1: and made some demos and uh, we were going I
Speaker 1: don't remember even remember the guy's name, but there was
Speaker 1: a band called Hot Hot Heat back when this we
Speaker 1: were doing this, it was like two thousand three. UM
Speaker 1: and the producer who had done their album with that
Speaker 1: song Bandages, I think was an aim of the song.
Speaker 1: He was we were gonna work with him. And coincidentally,
Speaker 1: when I moved to l A into nineteen or sorry
Speaker 1: the year two thousand, I had a manager who moved
Speaker 1: me here. His name was Shan Racigliano and his partner
Speaker 1: was named Andrew Brightman, and uh, they co managed us,
Speaker 1: and then at one point Sean split off and I
Speaker 1: stayed with Sean, but Andrew and I remained friends. And
Speaker 1: Andrew's twin brother was one of my dearest friends still is.
Speaker 1: But Andrew manages Dave Cob. He got Andrew had gone
Speaker 1: out of the artist management thing and gotten more into
Speaker 1: the producer management thing. And I was gonna go do
Speaker 1: this record with this hot, hot heat guy. And Andrew
Speaker 1: called me and said, Hey, before you go meet this guy,
Speaker 1: there's a guy who just moved to l A. He's
Speaker 1: from your neck of the woods. I think you guys
Speaker 1: would get along really well. I'd love for you to
Speaker 1: like meet him. And and I went and met Dave
Speaker 1: and and he had kind of just gotten here from
Speaker 1: Atlanta and we had worked on some cool stuff, but
Speaker 1: like I was really finding his way in l A.
Speaker 1: And we kind of met and instantly loved each other.
Speaker 1: And then we went in the studio and cut two
Speaker 1: songs which ended up on that record, Um Daddy's Farm
Speaker 1: and bustin Baylor County. We kind of at Paramount Studios
Speaker 1: here and and it was so cool sounding. I was like,
Speaker 1: this guy knows how to do what I want to do.
Speaker 1: You know, it was like we just instantly we were
Speaker 1: like rednecks who didn't didn't like being rednecks, and we're
Speaker 1: like MTV kids and liked rock and roll and liked
Speaker 1: all these other things and and like in that way,
Speaker 1: we just were instantly like brothers. Like it was just
Speaker 1: like a connection that was instant, you know. Okay, So
Speaker 1: how has Dave changed with all his success, talking less
Speaker 1: in terms of personality and more in terms of his productions. Well,
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, Dave is like the coolest thing
Speaker 1: about I mean, he hasn't changed, you know, personally really
Speaker 1: in my opinion at all. He Uh, what's cool is
Speaker 1: that the old Dave when when he was just starting out,
Speaker 1: like you could tell like he was ready to play
Speaker 1: in the room with all the gear. He was ready
Speaker 1: to record the record at Abbey Road with the Beatles,
Speaker 1: you know, but but like the world was catching up
Speaker 1: to him. So like it's just awesome to see him.
Speaker 1: Like once he got like our Cia Studio A and
Speaker 1: he's got like all the gear he ever wanted, and
Speaker 1: it's and he's like trading out boards and getting new
Speaker 1: getting an a p I and then he gets sells
Speaker 1: at and gets a Knave and like now he's getting
Speaker 1: to play with all the stuff that he always dreamed of.
Speaker 1: So it's like it's almost like fully realized Dave, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's like he he was there,
Speaker 1: but the world was catching up to him, and not
Speaker 1: once the world caught up to him, it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: he's he's getting a lot of respect, which he very
Speaker 1: much deserves. Well, he's the hottest guy in Nashville certainly
Speaker 1: when you talk about credibility. So what is his secret sauce?
Speaker 1: His secret sauce? I would say his he Okay, First
Speaker 1: of all, Dave is like not afraid to to say
Speaker 1: doesn't like something. You know, that's definitely like It's a
Speaker 1: good thing about Dave is that he's he's a very
Speaker 1: personable person. He's a Southerner, so he's a gentleman. But like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, he he knows he knows how to steer
Speaker 1: something in a direction that he wants gently, which is
Speaker 1: a great thing. But I would say the greatest asset
Speaker 1: with Dave is his knowledge of music, which with a
Speaker 1: lot of producers this way, but his catalog of music
Speaker 1: in his mind and what his taste is when it
Speaker 1: comes to the equipment. Like you know, Dave is a
Speaker 1: geared He's the gear guy. Like if I'm buying something,
Speaker 1: I buy stuff from Dave all the time. Like when
Speaker 1: we were doing Brandy's last record, he had this piece
Speaker 1: of gear that was a it was a single channel
Speaker 1: strip from the Electra Asylum board that they cut warren
Speaker 1: Zevon warren z von On here in l a On
Speaker 1: Los Angele Boulevard hit a single channel from it. He's like,
Speaker 1: you want to buy it? I was like, yes, I
Speaker 1: want to buy that. You know, he was over it.
Speaker 1: He loved it, but he was over and ready to
Speaker 1: sell it, and I was like, I'm buying it. I'm
Speaker 1: buying you. It's my favorite piece of gear. So the
Speaker 1: thing about Dave is he collects all this stuff and
Speaker 1: he's he knows everything about all this gear. So like
Speaker 1: when you record with Dave, you know you're you're gonna
Speaker 1: be getting something that's like so authentic and like old
Speaker 1: school yet like modern. You know, like he just is
Speaker 1: he's a sound crafter. And that's really like when you
Speaker 1: when he he mixed the first Brandy record except for
Speaker 1: the joke, and I loved it. When we were doing it,
Speaker 1: he was like, I'm gonna mix this, and I was like, yes,
Speaker 1: because I knew what that meant. You know, any other
Speaker 1: mixer is is gonna do a great job, I'm sure,
Speaker 1: but Dave, it's gonna sound like like a Beatles record.
Speaker 1: It's gonna sound like a uh like you know, I
Speaker 1: can't find my way home or like like uh, Paul
Speaker 1: Simon like he's obsessed with all these these producers and
Speaker 1: these engineers from those eras. So you know he has
Speaker 1: studied that stuff and he's and he just shares the knowledge,
Speaker 1: which is another thing that is fantastic about him. Okay,
Speaker 1: you said he turned you into a gear head. Tell
Speaker 1: me that process. Well, because I didn't, you know, like
Speaker 1: when I was as a as the artist. Uh, I
Speaker 1: was like, well, Dave's got it all. Why wh why
Speaker 1: do why do I need you to go down this road?
Speaker 1: You know? And then once I started getting into the
Speaker 1: production side, I'm like, Okay, I need to start getting
Speaker 1: some gear and like really learning the gear and like
Speaker 1: so when I when I first started, I would call
Speaker 1: Dave and I was like, hey, like I need to
Speaker 1: get some preamps, you know, and and he would he'd
Speaker 1: be he'd send me a reverb. Like he's like, these
Speaker 1: are the actual preamps that we recorded Electric Rodeo on,
Speaker 1: and it was these these E M I, t G
Speaker 1: two and this channel or t G two And I
Speaker 1: was like all right, you know so and then he's like,
Speaker 1: and you need to get one of these. And then
Speaker 1: like when I was doing the manson record, I was like,
Speaker 1: he was like, you gotta get one of these hues. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's this little box that's like it was made in
Speaker 1: the nineties for UM. It was made for home stereo
Speaker 1: systems to make it like using phase it would emulate
Speaker 1: three D kind of sound, but on a home just
Speaker 1: two speaker system. But like Chad Blake would use it
Speaker 1: with reverb because you can like put reverb or any
Speaker 1: channels through it and then mess with this weird phase
Speaker 1: and it kind of makes the reverb sound like they're
Speaker 1: behind the speaker or makes the audio sound like it's
Speaker 1: coming from elsewhere in the room and it's just a
Speaker 1: phase trick between the two speakers. So like he would
Speaker 1: just kind of throw ideas at me, and I would
Speaker 1: what's the name of that product us the name of
Speaker 1: the company, and it's an S R S. Let's see. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just ther s r S a K. Sound Retrieval System
Speaker 1: is what it's called. And it's just sitting right here
Speaker 1: up here, and but you know, and he would just
Speaker 1: always throw throw me a bone. And then and then
Speaker 1: once I got to a place where I was like
Speaker 1: discovering some gear, I would be like so excited and
Speaker 1: proud to like be like, Dave, have you checked out
Speaker 1: this thing? And He's like no, And I'm like, let
Speaker 1: me tell you all about it, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: because it was it was made me feel like I
Speaker 1: had learned something, you know. But but really like like
Speaker 1: he's one of those kind of dudes who who shares
Speaker 1: the knowledge is excited to to turn people other people
Speaker 1: onto cool stuff, you know. So but he turned me
Speaker 1: into a gearhead. And now I've bought so much crap.
Speaker 1: And like I didn't used to like go on the
Speaker 1: reverb and sell things and then use that money and
Speaker 1: buy more things and do all this. You know, I
Speaker 1: just didn't have the patience for it. But now I've
Speaker 1: become addicted to it. And it's all his fault. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you're in l A, yes, sir, been here's something
Speaker 1: not the street of just but generally generally uh, kind
Speaker 1: of near the Hollywood Bowl that's okay, on the valley side,
Speaker 1: or the Hollywood right on the valley side, like where
Speaker 1: the Barn bridges. I'm near there, okay. And you have
Speaker 1: a studio in your house that you're in right now.
Speaker 1: I do, I do, Okay, So how extensive is your studio?
Speaker 1: We can you cut in your studio or everything? I can?
Speaker 1: I've never cut drums, and yet my wife and I
Speaker 1: bought this house last year, so we we haven't gotten
Speaker 1: to where I've cut on an entire session in here,
Speaker 1: but I've I've I can do them. I can do
Speaker 1: anything in here. I've cut um, of course, like vocals.
Speaker 1: I've cut full tracks that are programmed. I've got a
Speaker 1: piano that's all wired up, and I've cut piano tracks.
Speaker 1: You know. I've mixed. I can mix in here. I
Speaker 1: mixed one of the songs on Brandy's new record in
Speaker 1: this room. And I've got a big, nice wall of
Speaker 1: outboard gear right here in this little studio desk with
Speaker 1: a lot of all the gear that I need. Like
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say I could rent this out to someone
Speaker 1: and that they would enjoy it, but for me, it's
Speaker 1: like perfect for me, it's just set up kind of
Speaker 1: what kind of board, No board, It's all pro tools
Speaker 1: I have. I know, I have like a lot of
Speaker 1: pre amps, and I have a lot of like outboard
Speaker 1: gear that I run things through. I have, like I said,
Speaker 1: I had that one channel from that board that was
Speaker 1: at the Electro Asylum. So when it like when I
Speaker 1: mixed the song was called Center Sanson Fools off Brandy's album.
Speaker 1: But when I mixed that, I ran every single track
Speaker 1: through that one channel, so that kind of emulated as
Speaker 1: if I was using that same board from the war
Speaker 1: van was cut on, you know, But like I just
Speaker 1: had to do it one by one. I basically recorded
Speaker 1: into pro Tools and then dump it through this thing,
Speaker 1: each channel through that thing, and it comes back and
Speaker 1: it sounds like sounds like an old console. But I
Speaker 1: have no physical console in here. I'd like to get
Speaker 1: one eventually, but I do so much in pro Tools,
Speaker 1: and and I've always been able to do that no problem.
Speaker 1: I have like a little automated desk that controls pro Tools,
Speaker 1: but no physical poork. Okay, where are you on on
Speaker 1: the analog digital debate. I'm I've done plenty of records
Speaker 1: all analog, while I enjoy it, I you know, the
Speaker 1: pro tools digital to me has come so far the
Speaker 1: audio quality, it's really hard to differentiate it. Of course,
Speaker 1: there's like tape sound and things, but I prefer to
Speaker 1: work on the computer. Again, I'm the computer nerd at
Speaker 1: heart anyway, and I love all the things you can
Speaker 1: do with the computer, so I I kind of look
Speaker 1: at it like a never ending exploration machine, you know.
Speaker 1: So So why did Dave Dave not mix the Joke? Well,
Speaker 1: he did originally, and I loved his mix, but he
Speaker 1: felt he wanted Tom Elmhurst to take a shot at it,
Speaker 1: who did most of the new record, Who's a great mixer. Um,
Speaker 1: it's funny. I think Dave makes two songs on the
Speaker 1: new record. I mixed one and Tom mix the rest.
Speaker 1: But on the original, like I said, I love Dave's mix,
Speaker 1: but he and Brandy eventually said no, we want to
Speaker 1: We want somebody else to mix the single, and I
Speaker 1: think Tom did a great job with that. But I'm
Speaker 1: a fan of Dave's mixes. That So, what's the difference
Speaker 1: between Dave's mixed on the Joke and the ultimate release version?
Speaker 1: Not a ton But there's like Dave's mixes sound like
Speaker 1: they're they're like nine, you know, with with a modern
Speaker 1: low end, like they really sound like classic. And Tom's
Speaker 1: while it was recorded using a lot of classic gears.
Speaker 1: So so Tom's is similar, but you know, he's he's
Speaker 1: a professional mixer, so he's mixing everything like from I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't want to I'm not ripping on Tom's mixed
Speaker 1: by any means, there's just a different You can hear
Speaker 1: Dave's touch in a mix in my opinion, and it's
Speaker 1: it's kind of like instant, instantaneously identifiable, instantly, I should
Speaker 1: say identifiable to me. So like Tom, like you know,
Speaker 1: he brought up the high hat, like put some verb
Speaker 1: on the high hat and away and it and some
Speaker 1: of the high end on the drums kind of popped
Speaker 1: more than than Dave's would days. Is again more classic,
Speaker 1: you know, and kind of like like an old record
Speaker 1: that even though we didn't cut it to tape, like
Speaker 1: his mixes kind of sound like like their tape, you know.
Speaker 1: And so there were just some some kind of EQ
Speaker 1: differences and and and Tom's really good with Brandy's voice.
Speaker 1: That was the first time he had mixed it, and
Speaker 1: Brandy really flipped out, like he he whatever his chain is,
Speaker 1: which I'm not aware of what it is he uses,
Speaker 1: but whatever he uses on her voice, it really brings
Speaker 1: it out front and center. And I think I think
Speaker 1: that was part of the decision at least on Brandy's
Speaker 1: part with that mix, was like how front and center
Speaker 1: her voice was on it. But I liked them both. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let's assume I want to make a record with you,
Speaker 1: and I'm not an artist. But what's the approach I use? Wait,
Speaker 1: if you're if you want to make it, what do
Speaker 1: you mean by that? If you want to make a
Speaker 1: record with me but you're not an artist? No, I
Speaker 1: mean me personally, I'm using a hypothetic. Okay, Well, I
Speaker 1: mean when I look when somebody comes to me and
Speaker 1: wants to make a record, if somebody asked me to
Speaker 1: make record, Like sometimes i'm introduced to people. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: kind of like it. It depends on the situation of
Speaker 1: how we end up getting in the room. But like
Speaker 1: I'll give you an example with like Duff mccagan. I
Speaker 1: was I had known Duff a long time, but I
Speaker 1: was not in his He was not aware that I
Speaker 1: was producing records like We've known each other from my
Speaker 1: old band and and been like fifteen years, but we
Speaker 1: hadn't like hung out. We didn't like hang out all
Speaker 1: the time. And Um Greg Nadel, who were who runs Electra,
Speaker 1: we were. I was actually at Colbert same day that
Speaker 1: I told Brandy about the Tanner record and she freaked
Speaker 1: out and I was like, come do it with me.
Speaker 1: That same day, Greg Nadel was like, hey, he pulled
Speaker 1: me aside. He said, Deaf mccagan is doing a new record,
Speaker 1: and what's a producer would you be interested in? He's
Speaker 1: like it's kind of like a Stones type thing, and
Speaker 1: I was like, of course I would love to because
Speaker 1: I loved I loved um his stuff like camp can't
Speaker 1: put my arms around a memory when he covered the
Speaker 1: Johnny Thunders on the Guns and Roses Spaghetti Incident record
Speaker 1: and stuff like. I liked his style. And so when
Speaker 1: we met, he came over. He came over my house
Speaker 1: and this is not this house. It was the last
Speaker 1: house we had, which was much smaller. In my studio
Speaker 1: is basically a closet. But I had this little electronic
Speaker 1: piano and he had all these pieces of songs. So
Speaker 1: we sat down and probably spent about a week total
Speaker 1: going through all this material, and and one thing that
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm good at is kind of completing
Speaker 1: musical arrangements. So some somebody has like a part of
Speaker 1: a song. Like he had pieces of songs choruses and
Speaker 1: verses and melodies with not even completed lyrics, you know.
Speaker 1: And so we would sit down and I would he
Speaker 1: would play me like on his guitar. He had a guitar,
Speaker 1: and I was sitting at the piano, and he would play, uh,
Speaker 1: this piece of a song like converse the chorus, and
Speaker 1: I'd be like, Okay, what if we like do this
Speaker 1: as a connector between the chorus and the next verse,
Speaker 1: and maybe this is a bridge or whatever. And we
Speaker 1: would kind of like mess with them until we had
Speaker 1: these kind of you know, arrangements. Basically they weren't he
Speaker 1: wasn't even done with the lyrics, but there were complete arrangements,
Speaker 1: you know. And so we worked through all that, and
Speaker 1: then once that happened, he let me put together the band.
Speaker 1: And I have a band that I love working with
Speaker 1: here that I've worked with for many years. If if
Speaker 1: I get the option to pick the band for them,
Speaker 1: I always picked these guys and we kind of got
Speaker 1: in and did the whole thing on the spot, you know.
Speaker 1: So that so that's one way of working. Like when
Speaker 1: I when I did Manson's record, he he had nothing,
Speaker 1: so we made it all up. I made up all
Speaker 1: the music myself with him, and he wrote all the
Speaker 1: lyrics and we we just kind of constructed of nowhere,
Speaker 1: like with with Tanya with Brandy, you know, with that project,
Speaker 1: it was kind of different because with that we me
Speaker 1: and Brandy were picking material for her and writing material
Speaker 1: and then once we got in, like she she was
Speaker 1: so hard to even get her to listen to any
Speaker 1: of the materials. She didn't like it, she didn't want
Speaker 1: to do it, she didn't think she thought we were crazy.
Speaker 1: And we convinced her to get to l A to
Speaker 1: Sunset Sound, and once we got there, it just kind
Speaker 1: of was like on the fly. You know. So every
Speaker 1: every time when somebody does the record, it's it's different,
Speaker 1: you know, And that's kind of what I feel a
Speaker 1: producer's job is anyways, like is to kind of be
Speaker 1: this malleable um, have a have a malleable role because
Speaker 1: sometimes you the artist in the band, have all the
Speaker 1: songs figured out and it's really about just facilitating it
Speaker 1: or or setting you know, getting good sounds or whatever.
Speaker 1: But then sometimes you have an artist, like right after
Speaker 1: Duff um So, Duff's manager is best friends with Slashes manager,
Speaker 1: and Slashes manager manages White Buffalo. So after I got
Speaker 1: done with Duff and Duff was really happy, they suggested
Speaker 1: suggested me to work with White Buffalo, and I met Jake.
Speaker 1: We went out and met at a bar and had
Speaker 1: had like a little date, a little blind date, and
Speaker 1: hung out and had some beers and and um went
Speaker 1: and we really hit it off, like instantly hit it off.
Speaker 1: And he didn't have really any material. He was just
Speaker 1: kind of like tinkering. But I think he was in
Speaker 1: a place where he didn't know what was next, and
Speaker 1: I think he like had his last producer had like left,
Speaker 1: or I don't know what happened. Jake said, wonderful guy,
Speaker 1: so like I don't know what had happened. But he
Speaker 1: didn't have a producer or anything. And we sat down
Speaker 1: and he was like, I was like, what material do
Speaker 1: you have? He's like, oh, I don't really have anything.
Speaker 1: And then he started like listening in his voice notes
Speaker 1: and finding little pieces of songs that he had written
Speaker 1: over the years, and I was like, that's great, and
Speaker 1: then we kind of like duff, like I said, at
Speaker 1: the piano, and we worked him out and worked some
Speaker 1: arrangements and and the next thing, you know, we had
Speaker 1: we had a record and and it was there, you know.
Speaker 1: So it just kind of depends. Like this time around
Speaker 1: with Tanya, it's very different than it was last time
Speaker 1: with Tanya because this time I kind of had an
Speaker 1: idea and wrote some songs as a vision for the record,
Speaker 1: and Brandy got on board with that, and and now
Speaker 1: we're going in January. And you know, last time, a
Speaker 1: guy in her band, Tim hands are Off, wrote a
Speaker 1: lot of the songs for the record. This time around,
Speaker 1: it's different. So Brandy's written some, I've written some. So
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like it always changes, you know.
Speaker 1: But but either way, I'm into, Like I love meeting people,
Speaker 1: I love doing records getting I really respect being taken
Speaker 1: into their process and into their bands and being a
Speaker 1: part of it. And I really want them to have
Speaker 1: a good time and I want them to be happy
Speaker 1: every day in the studio and be excited. I don't
Speaker 1: believe in roadblocks, and I don't believe in like they're
Speaker 1: being tension Like I know, I just I'm just not
Speaker 1: that type of person. So like to me, I want
Speaker 1: to get in there and have everybody be all smiles
Speaker 1: and I'm so excited from day one to the end,
Speaker 1: you know, and no matter what it takes. Okay, So
Speaker 1: let's assume the people tend to come to you. Is
Speaker 1: it serendipitous like with the Dell or do you have
Speaker 1: a manager and where does money come in? Well? I
Speaker 1: have a manager who who after the guy I told
Speaker 1: you about, the Colonel John Hensley passed away, um that
Speaker 1: there was a there was a guy who we hung
Speaker 1: out with. It I had known since I was a
Speaker 1: kid whose grandfather played bass for my dad. And his
Speaker 1: name is Adam Bridges and he's ten years younger than me.
Speaker 1: And after John died, I was like, you know what
Speaker 1: I did? You know, I can't remember what it's called.
Speaker 1: And I sound like an idiot. I'm speaking out of turn.
Speaker 1: But but like in the Jewish family, when someone dies,
Speaker 1: they take thirty days to like two mourn and figure out,
Speaker 1: you know, what's next. And so I said, I'm going
Speaker 1: to do that. After he died, and I took thirty
Speaker 1: days because I was like, I don't want to hire
Speaker 1: another manager. I don't know what to do, and and
Speaker 1: it just kind of came to me and I was
Speaker 1: like Adam was not even a manager at the time,
Speaker 1: but I was like, come, come manage me, you know,
Speaker 1: and he started. Now he's like started a whole management company,
Speaker 1: managed tons of people, and it's like he's doing so great.
Speaker 1: But but um, so he's my manager, he's my partner.
Speaker 1: He also runs our label that we have BCR together.
Speaker 1: But he so he he's the key to a lot
Speaker 1: because he is my schedule keeper because I'm I'm so
Speaker 1: all over the place, like between records and devoting I
Speaker 1: devote a lot of time to my children and everything.
Speaker 1: Like he kind of schedules and budgets and puts all
Speaker 1: that together so that I don't have to worry about it.
Speaker 1: And and it also has a flow with the engineers
Speaker 1: and studios I work with and everything. But um you know,
Speaker 1: usually the artists either I come to them or they
Speaker 1: come to me, like tany I came to them, like
Speaker 1: Brandy uh duff. You know, let's I mean, there's I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think it kind of is different sometimes I'm
Speaker 1: set up on the date, like with the White Buffalo,
Speaker 1: but that worked really great. Sometimes like my my booking agent,
Speaker 1: John Folk and introduced me to American Aquarium and that
Speaker 1: record happened that way. Jason Boland, the master Sins were
Speaker 1: old friends. They asked me to do it. Um you know,
Speaker 1: was more than happy to do it. So it usually
Speaker 1: comes through people I know and that channel. But then
Speaker 1: I then I I joined Concord as a staff producer
Speaker 1: and a and R under Tom Wally, and so in
Speaker 1: that I do three records. I can still do outside records,
Speaker 1: but I do three records with them a year. And
Speaker 1: so in that they that which I love the company
Speaker 1: and I love the network. I love Fantasy I. I
Speaker 1: had worked with them with Tanya Um you know, Margie
Speaker 1: over there and a bunch of great people at all
Speaker 1: the different labels, John Strom at Rounders. So I've gotten
Speaker 1: to know them and be kind of in the system there,
Speaker 1: which has been really interesting and wonderful experience and worked
Speaker 1: really closely Bryan Wally um on loan of this to stuff.
Speaker 1: So they all set me up for meetings with different
Speaker 1: artists like Avi Kaplan was a good one and who
Speaker 1: uh We did a whole record last last winter that
Speaker 1: turned out really great. And I've had some meetings with
Speaker 1: some artists there and you know, they didn't pick me.
Speaker 1: They went with other people or for whatever reasons. You know.
Speaker 1: It wasn't always wentn't like we didn't get along. It
Speaker 1: was just like whatever the situation was, it right. And
Speaker 1: that's that's very different than what I'm used to, which
Speaker 1: is like people that I know kind of reaching out.
Speaker 1: But I like this because it's a challenge and it
Speaker 1: and it kind of also it puts me in situations
Speaker 1: musically that I've never been in. And to me, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I want to learn all the time, i want to
Speaker 1: get better and I want to like ex arians different things,
Speaker 1: you know. So so in that sense, I'm really enjoying
Speaker 1: doing it that way. But it's different for me. Okay,
Speaker 1: But let's talk about budgets. Needle to say, you came
Speaker 1: on board when the old system was in its last throws.
Speaker 1: So you know, you get a big budget, a couple
Speaker 1: of hundred k from the label you're cutting a big studio.
Speaker 1: So what kind of budgets do you work with today
Speaker 1: and what's your deal? Well, I mean, my price is
Speaker 1: like it depends. It depends on how much time and
Speaker 1: it's gonna take. You know, if it's a short record,
Speaker 1: it's whatever. I mean, we we kind of work out
Speaker 1: different prices. But but like with studios, you know, it's
Speaker 1: very different, Like you said, it's very different. I mean
Speaker 1: it's it's not Bust Rhymes spending like seven thousand dollars
Speaker 1: on a record in the studio, you know, or it's
Speaker 1: not like like you know, Paul Simon, Simon and Garfunkel,
Speaker 1: I think they mixed uh Bridge over Trouble Water for
Speaker 1: six months, you know. So nowadays it's so different that
Speaker 1: you gotta kind of do it for quick and and
Speaker 1: you know, under budget if you can. And so I
Speaker 1: when I when we do records, they usually are total
Speaker 1: encapsulated probably eighty two honor twenty dollars these day. That
Speaker 1: that's kind of usually what what they're working with, you know,
Speaker 1: And that's that's with a label behind them. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: it's you know, we're doing it like hell Abound Glories
Speaker 1: on my label, and so we're paying for all of it.
Speaker 1: So we did their last record in two days. We
Speaker 1: did five songs a day, two days nailed at this
Speaker 1: time we just got out. We did five days, and
Speaker 1: I was really happy because I wanted they deserve the time,
Speaker 1: but it was like the budget didn't allow it last time.
Speaker 1: This time we've made a little bit, so we're able
Speaker 1: to do it. So it just it just kind of matters,
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of what kind of record it is.
Speaker 1: But again, it's it's all guerrilla these days. It's all
Speaker 1: kind of stealth. But I love working. My favorite studio
Speaker 1: is Sunset Sound, which has just been around forever, and
Speaker 1: I love those guys over there. And if I can't
Speaker 1: do it there, there's a studio called Dave's Room that
Speaker 1: used to be a guy named Dave Bianco used to
Speaker 1: run you passed away who engineered like Wildflowers for Tom
Speaker 1: Petty and stuff. And his engineer who I've known a
Speaker 1: long time, David Spring, took over his studio. So I
Speaker 1: worked there a lot, and we can we can do
Speaker 1: it within a smaller budget if we do it there,
Speaker 1: because it's David's studio, so he's charging me, him and
Speaker 1: the studio in one fee. And if I'm picking the band,
Speaker 1: my guys will do it for a good price. A
Speaker 1: lot of the time, you know, in l A you're
Speaker 1: not bound to the restrictions of the union, which could
Speaker 1: could be viewed is a good or bad thing. But
Speaker 1: in some situations where a band really needs it and
Speaker 1: the union is like making everybody take a certain amount,
Speaker 1: it can make it really hard, like in Nashville to
Speaker 1: make a cheap record. But out here, if the band's
Speaker 1: into it and they like the music, they'll do it.
Speaker 1: And we can really kind of cut some stealth records
Speaker 1: very quickly and and everybody get taken care of and
Speaker 1: and be cool. So you know, it's like it all
Speaker 1: just kind of is. It moves, but it's a lot
Speaker 1: smaller than he used to be. But you can still
Speaker 1: make records. I think that our our fantastic and sound great.
Speaker 1: And sometimes you spend a year on a record at
Speaker 1: home doing it, and sometimes you spend six days, but
Speaker 1: they can all be good. Okay, So you say such
Speaker 1: that sound is expensive? Uh, do you always cut in
Speaker 1: sunset or Dave's room where sometimes you're just cutting in
Speaker 1: your house? It depends on the project. Like lately, I've
Speaker 1: been working with this guy DJ Paul who's was in
Speaker 1: three six Mafia, and he wanted to do kind of
Speaker 1: a rock record, So We've done that all at my house,
Speaker 1: and and the same went for that Manson record. We
Speaker 1: did that all at my house and then we went
Speaker 1: to a studio and cut live drums over a period
Speaker 1: a couple of days, and so doing doing albums at
Speaker 1: home it's a different process. It usually involves a lot
Speaker 1: of programming. Usually, like I don't, I'm not usually cutting
Speaker 1: because like I haven't really built any kind of baffles
Speaker 1: or soundproofing in here, which I'm fine with. Piano is fine,
Speaker 1: acoustic is fine, but if I want to set up
Speaker 1: big tar amps and stuff, I could do it here.
Speaker 1: But I prefer to do it all in a room
Speaker 1: where it's laid out because I usually, if if it's
Speaker 1: a live band album, I wanted to all be cut
Speaker 1: at the same time. I don't. I'm not. We don't
Speaker 1: usually do it piece by piece, instrument by instrument, which
Speaker 1: a lot of people do do, but I prefer to
Speaker 1: have it be all tracked at once, and in that case,
Speaker 1: I need the space. But if we're doing something like
Speaker 1: the DJ Paul project where we're programming a lot of it, um,
Speaker 1: I can do that and we can do it piece
Speaker 1: by piece here and then we can take it to
Speaker 1: a studio and cut the live stuff that we need
Speaker 1: that way. But but most of the time, uh, most
Speaker 1: the types of records that I do require a live space,
Speaker 1: and and you know, Dave's room and since it sound,
Speaker 1: both have wonderful wood rooms in great drum rooms and
Speaker 1: isolation booths and pianos and things, so we're able to
Speaker 1: kind of get a really warm, rich sound out of them,
Speaker 1: you know. Okay, So the newest Randy record you're doing.
Speaker 1: The previous one, she hadn't had that level of success
Speaker 1: whatsoever in terms of recordings. It was earlier stuff with
Speaker 1: Tibo and Burnett that had the most commercial connection. So
Speaker 1: you do this record is unbelievably successful. Okay, now you
Speaker 1: have to do a follow up. There's so many questions involved,
Speaker 1: I mean, because now you have the pressure, now you
Speaker 1: have the notoriety. So walk me through in terms of
Speaker 1: how that affected the process, in terms of writing the
Speaker 1: material and the attitude in the wanting to find you know,
Speaker 1: the trucks that would resonate with listeners. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: the greatest thing about Brandy Carlyle is that she, like
Speaker 1: her and Phil and Tim hands Wrath, are a writing collective.
Speaker 1: And they did this for so long together, and they
Speaker 1: wrote so many songs, and they developed their craft and
Speaker 1: their arts so much that I think that they were
Speaker 1: so far into their own process and it had been
Speaker 1: so far refined that I did when I heard the
Speaker 1: demos for this new album, it did not feel like
Speaker 1: someone who had just gotten some success and we're trying
Speaker 1: to replicate that success. It was a whole new batch
Speaker 1: of songs that was very much in there their wheelhouse.
Speaker 1: But it there was nothing that there that was like, oh,
Speaker 1: we got to do another joke, or oh we've got
Speaker 1: to do something popular to keep up with this, or that.
Speaker 1: It felt very authentic and real. And the demos, like
Speaker 1: I remember the demos from the first record and what
Speaker 1: they sounded like, and it stayed very true to them
Speaker 1: um as far, and they were just like acoustic and
Speaker 1: her and them singing, you know. With this one, like
Speaker 1: I remember I was, I was laying in bed with
Speaker 1: my wife, You're about to go to bed, and I
Speaker 1: got all these texts from Brandy and it was like
Speaker 1: Broken Horses was in there, and Broken Horses had like
Speaker 1: a little bit different of a chorus, and there was
Speaker 1: some different elements that were changed and refined during the process,
Speaker 1: but pretty much they were. They were very true to
Speaker 1: the thing like you and me, and the rock was
Speaker 1: in there right on time, was in there, like there
Speaker 1: was these songs that were already kind of fully developed,
Speaker 1: but they were they were they felt like another step.
Speaker 1: It just didn't. It didn't feel like they were turning
Speaker 1: around and looking back at what they've done and trying
Speaker 1: to do something. It's like to them, they've been doing
Speaker 1: this so long that they were almost unfazed by the
Speaker 1: pressure because they've already been through that, like doing that
Speaker 1: first record and then kind of having all this success
Speaker 1: and and then kind of you know, continuing, but but
Speaker 1: it always kind of staying in that spot. And I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that critically, like I know that I know
Speaker 1: how hard it is like to kind of break through
Speaker 1: the levels, and especially when when Brandy like this has
Speaker 1: a lot going against her going in there, like you know,
Speaker 1: she's a woman, she's gay, like she's outward about it,
Speaker 1: like she had resistance in different areas because of all
Speaker 1: of this, which she just shattered and broke because she
Speaker 1: doesn't care, and she's very true to her heart and
Speaker 1: and very true to who she is, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: so I think they were just continuing their exact same
Speaker 1: growth and process that they'd always done. And in that way,
Speaker 1: I don't think that there was a pressure if anything. Brandy,
Speaker 1: you know, the one thing she talked about was she said, uh,
Speaker 1: she doesn't mind me saying that, which I don't think
Speaker 1: you will. But she was like, she really wanted to
Speaker 1: make sure this record had fallopian tubes, is what she
Speaker 1: said it was. And it was like kind of the
Speaker 1: way of saying, like the tender feminine moments. She knew
Speaker 1: there were some rockers that they had come up with
Speaker 1: like this Broken Horses and and Centers, Saints and Fools
Speaker 1: and these songs and even you and Me on the Rock,
Speaker 1: which is kind of jony ish, but it's like, but
Speaker 1: she had this throwing good after bad, Like when she
Speaker 1: sent me that song that was in that first batch,
Speaker 1: I like, that was my favorite song of the bunch
Speaker 1: at first, and I was like, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: love this song, you know, and she was like, that's
Speaker 1: what she meant by the floppian tubes like that, and um,
Speaker 1: let's see my letter to the paths Like those songs.
Speaker 1: She really wanted to have that that sensitive feminine energy
Speaker 1: be really present on this record, and not that it
Speaker 1: wasn't on the last one, but I think I think
Speaker 1: she succeeded in that. And so she has a vision
Speaker 1: for where she wants to go. And like an artist
Speaker 1: like David Bowie or somebody, she's always evolving and she
Speaker 1: knows it and she's always um wanting to you know.
Speaker 1: It's like what, there's a there's saying that says like
Speaker 1: that an entrepreneur is someone that always thinks that their
Speaker 1: next thing is going to be the big one that hits.
Speaker 1: And in a way, it's not like she's thinking that commercially.
Speaker 1: I think she's just thinking like this one is the masterpiece.
Speaker 1: Like every time she cuts a record, she's like, this
Speaker 1: one is the one, you know, And like that translates,
Speaker 1: and that kind of confidence is on her part, and
Speaker 1: the Twins is very and there's it's confidence that is
Speaker 1: like draped in a in a humility because they know
Speaker 1: who they are and they don't put on airs that
Speaker 1: they're amazing. But like yet the minute they start playing
Speaker 1: their songs, you're just kind of I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: blown away by it, and her voice blows me away.
Speaker 1: So it's like to them, the pressure was there, but
Speaker 1: it didn't really feel like it really more than anything,
Speaker 1: felt like we were just really excited to get back
Speaker 1: in together because here we had done this one record
Speaker 1: and had all this success, and we're like, let's do
Speaker 1: it again, Like this is really fun, you know. So okay.
Speaker 1: So in terms of making that record you co produced
Speaker 1: with Dave, what did Dave Cobb do? What did you do?
Speaker 1: And you talk about like with other artists helping write
Speaker 1: the songs, to what degree were you involved in changing
Speaker 1: the songs? Well, it's funny because between the two records
Speaker 1: it was it was a little different, but but it's
Speaker 1: still the same thing. Like Dave and I, like when
Speaker 1: Brandy first realized that we like really knew each other
Speaker 1: and we got in the studio, she kind of described
Speaker 1: it like like two kids building a rocket ship in
Speaker 1: their basement, Like we are like that together. So with
Speaker 1: the first record, like Dave and I had talked a
Speaker 1: lot previously, and we had all these ideas which immediately
Speaker 1: went out the window of the minute we got in
Speaker 1: there and heard the material and and I didn't know
Speaker 1: I was gonna play piano on the whole record. I
Speaker 1: didn't think I was gonna play anything on the record,
Speaker 1: and when the minute we got in there, Dave got
Speaker 1: on the acoustic and I was on the piano, and
Speaker 1: it kind of stayed that way for the whole record.
Speaker 1: And I remember at the time I wasn't as good
Speaker 1: as a piano player as I am now. I played,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't. I didn't play for other people, and
Speaker 1: there was a lot of songs and black keys, and
Speaker 1: I was so nervous because I didn't play very well
Speaker 1: in black keys, but I didn't want to let on
Speaker 1: that I wasn't good at it, so I just kind
Speaker 1: of like toughed my way through it and did did
Speaker 1: the whole record. And so the second time around, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, so that that was the
Speaker 1: first thing in the first record, and then I started
Speaker 1: like it was like finding our place was interesting because
Speaker 1: I was kind of like, where am I gonna Where
Speaker 1: am I gonna fit? Because I always I love Dave.
Speaker 1: Working with Dave, but he's always been my producer. We
Speaker 1: had never like co produced together, so I was never
Speaker 1: really sure going in like how it was gonna work like.
Speaker 1: But once we got in, I realized, like that there's
Speaker 1: there's very much a um like a it's hard to explain.
Speaker 1: It's like a it's like a chemistry with all of
Speaker 1: us as a group encouraging each other in certain ways.
Speaker 1: That part is almost more powerful than the actual production
Speaker 1: part of it. Like there's parts where like I mean,
Speaker 1: for me, I'm big into arrangement, so to be parts
Speaker 1: where would be like I'd be like, what if we
Speaker 1: cut this out? And what if we change this or
Speaker 1: we put this here instead of there, Like that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff I jump into a lot. Dave also does that.
Speaker 1: He's also more like when we sit down and go
Speaker 1: through the songs, Dave will be like, oh, what if
Speaker 1: we do discord instead of that chord? He does more
Speaker 1: of the chord like changing things because he's guitar minded,
Speaker 1: so he would sit there on the on the guitar
Speaker 1: and do that, whereas like I uncertain things would do
Speaker 1: that with the piano. But most of the time I'm
Speaker 1: kind of accompanying. I'm not driving as much as as
Speaker 1: the guitar does. So there would be some like kind
Speaker 1: of changes like that. And then of course Dave and
Speaker 1: his knowledge of gear, I'm not going to get in
Speaker 1: the way of like that. You know, there'd be certain
Speaker 1: things keyboard wise, or synthesizer wise. I'd be let's get
Speaker 1: that in here, let's do that. But Dave is the
Speaker 1: guy when it comes to the equipment, and he's got
Speaker 1: all of it, so so you know, you know that
Speaker 1: he knows what he's doing there, so I stay out
Speaker 1: of the way there. Um. The second record was different.
Speaker 1: Second record had I felt I was more involved in
Speaker 1: certain aspects than I was before, like especially in like
Speaker 1: a mediation sense, because there was a lot of like
Speaker 1: there was just a lot of information flying around because
Speaker 1: it was it was during COVID. We're doing the record
Speaker 1: in the middle of the in the middle of our
Speaker 1: c A instead of in a separate room like before
Speaker 1: it was in the control room and we're tracking in
Speaker 1: the large room, but because of COVID, Dave decided to
Speaker 1: set the board up in the center of our ci
Speaker 1: A Studio A and we're all recorded in the same
Speaker 1: room with the board. So when that's happening, like where
Speaker 1: where I was physically in the room was between the
Speaker 1: board and the band, and then Dave is over here
Speaker 1: and Chris the drummer was in a booth. So there
Speaker 1: was I remember kind of feeling like where I was
Speaker 1: physically was allowed me to be kind of a conduit
Speaker 1: in communications person in this room more than I was
Speaker 1: in the last one, because in the last one, I
Speaker 1: was tucked off in this corner and I'd have to
Speaker 1: be listening and and chiming in, And this time I'm doing,
Speaker 1: oh he said this, you know or whatever, like relaying information.
Speaker 1: So there was a little bit of that, and then
Speaker 1: there was a little bit of like this time around,
Speaker 1: I was really confident on the piano, and I was
Speaker 1: very ashing it about some of the arrangements like uh,
Speaker 1: broken Horses and Center Saints and Fools, some of those
Speaker 1: kind of songs. Like especially I was like this is
Speaker 1: this felt like my wheelhouse, Like even though the other
Speaker 1: record did as well, the other record was pretty mellow
Speaker 1: besides some Sugartooth Like Sugartooth was like that was my
Speaker 1: wheelhouse on that one, uh you know fulsome County Jane Doe. Also,
Speaker 1: this time around, I felt I just felt really confident.
Speaker 1: I also, you know, the last record, I was kind
Speaker 1: of stepping in and was been being brought into the
Speaker 1: situation that was a big deal, and it was kind
Speaker 1: of like my first big deal record, you know, not
Speaker 1: Dave's by any means, but it was kind of my,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, my first really big deal records. So
Speaker 1: this time around, I felt like really confident, really excited,
Speaker 1: and I felt like I could bring a lot more
Speaker 1: to the table than I could last time. Even though
Speaker 1: I felt like I did do a lot. This time around,
Speaker 1: I felt very at the center of it with Dave,
Speaker 1: and I felt like, uh, also, there was a different
Speaker 1: communication with me and Dave. This time. Me and Dave
Speaker 1: were kind of I don't know, it's almost like like
Speaker 1: last time. And I mean this in like a great way,
Speaker 1: but like last time, we were both still finding our
Speaker 1: voices out there. Like he he had really hit it
Speaker 1: in Nashville, had all the success with with Chris, but
Speaker 1: his his thing was still starting to like really crank
Speaker 1: up and and again like I had kind of stepped
Speaker 1: into this new direction of my life. So this time around,
Speaker 1: we both have this like kind of different piece about us,
Speaker 1: I think, and and I think it allowed for us
Speaker 1: to to really be two sides of the the tesla
Speaker 1: coil for like them to um you know, or conduits
Speaker 1: for for them to do their things, So that there
Speaker 1: was definitely some of that. And it's really cool because
Speaker 1: Dave plays the acoustic and I played the piano right,
Speaker 1: so like when he's got his sound that's very seventies,
Speaker 1: like just just him playing the acoustics that way, and
Speaker 1: I've got my sound that's kind of like like I
Speaker 1: love Elton John So I'm always kind of aping that world,
Speaker 1: which is something Brandy you know, loves, and so so
Speaker 1: we kind of got into a groove both records. It
Speaker 1: was so fun and we had never done before. We'd
Speaker 1: never jammed together, so me and Dave kind of being
Speaker 1: on either side of that was it was a really
Speaker 1: cool part of of the sound developing of these records,
Speaker 1: and I think it kind of made the records stand
Speaker 1: out from previous records because really we were holding down
Speaker 1: the fort on almost all the songs together and and
Speaker 1: that part was really fun. But like this time around,
Speaker 1: and also this time around when it got to the end,
Speaker 1: like me and Dave were both mixing songs, you know,
Speaker 1: and and Tom mixed most of the record with but
Speaker 1: there was one song Brandy didn't feel like that we
Speaker 1: were getting the right mix, and I said, let me
Speaker 1: take a shot at it, and I did it, and
Speaker 1: she loved it and ended up on the record. And
Speaker 1: there was there was another one Dave like the same thing.
Speaker 1: Dave like didn't mix the whole record this time, but
Speaker 1: there was two songs on the record of Dave mix
Speaker 1: and you could tell because it's like Dave stuff like
Speaker 1: stay gentle and this time tomorrow. He's just great at
Speaker 1: that acoustic like can't find my way home sound like
Speaker 1: that's where he's a master at it, you know. And
Speaker 1: and so it was really cool, was it? Really? It
Speaker 1: was kind of a different experience, but it felt really
Speaker 1: fulfilling because it felt like we really busted our asses
Speaker 1: on this one together, you know. Okay, you talk about
Speaker 1: working with all these different artists, sometimes writing stuff, sometimes arranging.
Speaker 1: You know, in today's rule where there's so much money
Speaker 1: and publishing, what happens with the songwriter credits? Well, I
Speaker 1: don't you know, Duff offered me songwriter for all the
Speaker 1: songs that I helped create. But I don't take it.
Speaker 1: I I don't. I mean, I'm just not that type
Speaker 1: of person. I think it's my job to do that.
Speaker 1: Like if I went in the studio with some songs
Speaker 1: and somebody changed my stuff and then ask for songwriter credit,
Speaker 1: like it could be one thing if they like really
Speaker 1: changed it, and and I was like, you deserve Like
Speaker 1: I gave Dave credit on songs in the past, like
Speaker 1: for sure, like and I've given you know, there's songs
Speaker 1: that were created on the spot, and you know I
Speaker 1: give it out. But like, I think it's the producer's job.
Speaker 1: And I think Dave feels this way to like arrangement
Speaker 1: means sometimes you're gonna change stuff, or you're gonna tell
Speaker 1: the artists change from You're gonna give suggestions, and unless
Speaker 1: it's like crazy, you know, obviously like this person wrote
Speaker 1: this song, I think it's our job. I don't think
Speaker 1: we should be asking them. And I said Noted Duff,
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't want to even get into
Speaker 1: that because again, it's my job. I'm being paid for that.
Speaker 1: I'm also getting a cut of the record, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm getting a whether it be three points or whatever,
Speaker 1: four points on a record that is already part of
Speaker 1: their career. I don't. I don't. I don't personally feel
Speaker 1: like I should be aping their publishing because I made
Speaker 1: some suggestions. And it also opens a whole other conversation
Speaker 1: because then if I'm going to do that as an artist,
Speaker 1: I would probably not want the producer to get involved
Speaker 1: if I know they're going to try and chop take
Speaker 1: my publishing and all this stuff you know you're publishing
Speaker 1: is like your kids stuff when when you die, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's like, I just I don't I don't agree
Speaker 1: with with producers who do that or even you know
Speaker 1: a lot of time musicians who feel like, oh, I
Speaker 1: wrote that baseline, I need to have a little cut
Speaker 1: in there, And you're like, I don't know, man, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I could just change that baseline and to
Speaker 1: be mine again, you know what I mean. Okay, So
Speaker 1: growing up, when did you realize who your parents were? Man,
Speaker 1: that's funny. That's funny because I was, you know, I
Speaker 1: was on the road as a baby, so like like
Speaker 1: we I would be sleeping on the bus in the
Speaker 1: back with my mom or like on airplanes and I
Speaker 1: and I traveled with until I started school, so like
Speaker 1: it was normal. There was this was just normal. And
Speaker 1: I was around other people like Willie Nelson's family or
Speaker 1: the Cashes and Christofferson's like their kids are out on
Speaker 1: the road and we would out in the roads. You're
Speaker 1: kind of like it's kind of like people who grew
Speaker 1: up in a completely different culture, and it's totally normal
Speaker 1: to them, you know, but everybody else is like like wow,
Speaker 1: like you grew up in tree houses, you know that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. It's like for us, it was normal.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't until you get in school around other
Speaker 1: people who don't live that and you go, oh, I'm different.
Speaker 1: You know, this is different. And I remember my dad
Speaker 1: used to tell the story, but it's so true because
Speaker 1: I remember I went over to this kid's house. His
Speaker 1: name was Cliff, and I was probably in second grade,
Speaker 1: and Cliff's dad was was a doctor. And so when
Speaker 1: my dad, my dad came over to pick me up
Speaker 1: from this play date, and Cliff goes, oh, hi, Dr Jennings, right,
Speaker 1: because he thought everybody's dad was doctor something. And it
Speaker 1: was kind of that effect, you know. I And it
Speaker 1: was weird because like I remember, as a kid, like
Speaker 1: before I was born, my dad used to party, right,
Speaker 1: and I was unaware of this. It never affected me
Speaker 1: as a child. I never saw him. You know, he
Speaker 1: did cocaine and stuff before they did pills whatever it
Speaker 1: was what they all did or whatever, But like he
Speaker 1: was never a drinker ever, So like I never saw
Speaker 1: any of this, but when I got in school, he
Speaker 1: was concerned that I would hear this because other parents
Speaker 1: knew and he had at one point gotten busted for
Speaker 1: this whole thing with drugs at one time and didn't
Speaker 1: go to jail or anything, but it was like a
Speaker 1: whole thing and uh, and so he was really worried
Speaker 1: I'd find out that kind of stuff in school, and
Speaker 1: you know, I understand, but you know, I think he
Speaker 1: thought I was gonna be disappointed in him or be
Speaker 1: embarrassed by him or something. And I never found out
Speaker 1: it that way. In fact, he tried to tell me
Speaker 1: many times, and I remember clearly one time him saying,
Speaker 1: you know, a long time ago, and then he said,
Speaker 1: I used to cuss a lot because he couldn't bring
Speaker 1: himself to say it. And I think, um, eventually my
Speaker 1: mom or somebody told me, and I was kind of like,
Speaker 1: so like, I didn't, you know, it didn't even really
Speaker 1: rattle me, but he, um, you know. So there was
Speaker 1: a lot of like weird. I don't know why I
Speaker 1: brought that up, but there's a lot of weird elements
Speaker 1: growing up with all of this, but they seemed very normal,
Speaker 1: and I don't think I think maybe I realized that
Speaker 1: that that he was a big deal and that like
Speaker 1: what it all was once Like other parents like we're
Speaker 1: like kind of that's Waal and Jennings or like this,
Speaker 1: but you know, it just kind of was how it was.
Speaker 1: And I remember I would go to the mall with
Speaker 1: my dad and I would tell him like just put
Speaker 1: on a hat and tell him you're his cousin or something,
Speaker 1: because I would be like get annoyed that people would
Speaker 1: bother him for autographs and stuff, you know, and when
Speaker 1: he would go out, like I don't know, it was weird.
Speaker 1: It was just a weird thing. It's hard to explain
Speaker 1: when you're when you grow up in it. And like again,
Speaker 1: my dad was like very present and very very kind
Speaker 1: and very like a big kid. So I never had
Speaker 1: any like misgivings about it, you know, I he just
Speaker 1: he just was always just a kind guy to me,
Speaker 1: a kind dad. I mean, he didn't have his grumpy days,
Speaker 1: but just like any anybody you know, but but he
Speaker 1: was he was a wonderful, wonderful guy. So he always
Speaker 1: made me feel very comfortable. So it all made sense.
Speaker 1: And so what kind of kid were you? In school?
Speaker 1: Remember the group outsider, A good student, bad student. I
Speaker 1: was not very popular because I was. I was. I
Speaker 1: was a good student. I mean it wasn't like straight
Speaker 1: a's or anything like I I struggled with math at
Speaker 1: certain times, and like, you know whatever, like any other kid,
Speaker 1: I guess, I was. I was just kind of a loaner.
Speaker 1: I had friends. I was. I was a nerdy kid,
Speaker 1: like I had got a computer at a very young
Speaker 1: age and was really into computers and like early video
Speaker 1: games and things like that. And and I had made
Speaker 1: friends that were like that. And I went to like
Speaker 1: I went to an elementary school that I really liked
Speaker 1: in Nashville, and I had my best friends were triplets.
Speaker 1: There was a set of triplets named the Sanders who
Speaker 1: I'm still friends with this day, that were my best friends.
Speaker 1: And there was another kid named Jonathan Body who went
Speaker 1: on to start my first band with me, and another
Speaker 1: kid named Matt Reeser who was also in my first band.
Speaker 1: And then um. I went to another school called m
Speaker 1: b A in Nashville that was like an all boys
Speaker 1: like private school, and I hated it. I was really not.
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't get along with anybody there. It
Speaker 1: was a lot of preppy kind of job kids. That
Speaker 1: friend Matt Resur, went there, but he was the only
Speaker 1: friend I had, and I was really miserable there. And
Speaker 1: then I went to a kind of liberal arts school
Speaker 1: called University School of Nashville for the last two years,
Speaker 1: and I loved it, and I may and and my
Speaker 1: friend Jonathan Bodie he had gone there, so I was like,
Speaker 1: I want to go where he went. And I went
Speaker 1: there and and loved it, and and I really I
Speaker 1: made a lot of friends, and I had a lot
Speaker 1: of music loving friends. And again, you know, I was
Speaker 1: in the nine inch nails and ministry and found like
Speaker 1: minded people that were into the same kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: And there was like a record and you could walk around.
Speaker 1: It was kind of downtown Nashville. Ish was in like
Speaker 1: the Underbuld area, and you could walk around off campus
Speaker 1: and go eat for lunch. And my dad's office was
Speaker 1: like two blocks away, so I would like drive or
Speaker 1: walk down to where his office was and hang out
Speaker 1: with Nicki Mitchell, who was he ran his office and
Speaker 1: was his manager for a long time. And I would
Speaker 1: go down there and hang out with them. You know,
Speaker 1: I just had it. Just my life changed. I was
Speaker 1: like happy, and I was really falling in love with music,
Speaker 1: and I loved my teachers, and like, in fact, like
Speaker 1: next next Wednesday, we're released. I'm releasing some material I
Speaker 1: recorded a couple of years ago I never put out,
Speaker 1: And one of them is for this art teacher Jeane
Speaker 1: size More who passed away. He was who was an
Speaker 1: art teacher there, who I hung out with many years after.
Speaker 1: I go over and smoke cigarettes with and stuff and
Speaker 1: listen to the blues and anyway, like like you know,
Speaker 1: I just really fell in love with life in those
Speaker 1: last two years. And I think I was a better student.
Speaker 1: I started paying attention more because it wasn't like these
Speaker 1: teachers that were kind of like you gotta learn this,
Speaker 1: you gotta do this. It was like these teachers I had,
Speaker 1: Like I had this English teacher named Elizabeth cobe All
Speaker 1: who like turned me on too, like turned us onto
Speaker 1: Joseph Campbell and showed us Barton Fink and the Coen
Speaker 1: Brothers like stuff in school, and like I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: like I love this. I love literature. Like before that
Speaker 1: it was all work, you know, and and so it
Speaker 1: just kind of it mattered. And that was the that
Speaker 1: was the spot where I think I really enjoyed school
Speaker 1: was his last two years. You know what about going
Speaker 1: to college. I didn't go. I didn't want to go.
Speaker 1: I was like, I wanted to be in music. There's
Speaker 1: certain things I regret about it. And I tell my
Speaker 1: daughter this, because my daughter is fourteen and she's into music.
Speaker 1: She's done the exact same thing. She's so into it,
Speaker 1: plays piano, and she's like, why do I need to
Speaker 1: go to college? And I'm like, you know, I had
Speaker 1: the same thing. I took a year off. I was like,
Speaker 1: can I take a year off? I want to work
Speaker 1: on music a little bit. And my dad was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can take a year off. And I was looking
Speaker 1: at like I got accepted to Berkeley and I was
Speaker 1: looking at full sale and I was like, um, you know,
Speaker 1: music stuff. And I was like, I wanted to a
Speaker 1: year off. And then and then after the first year,
Speaker 1: I was like, and I just want to move to
Speaker 1: l A. And my dad was like, no, please, don't please.
Speaker 1: And I was like, he's like, you're gonna be a
Speaker 1: little fish in a big pond there, and you're a
Speaker 1: big fish and a little pond here. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I said, I really want to do it, this is
Speaker 1: my chance, like I really felt it, you know, And
Speaker 1: so I made the decision not to He supported me,
Speaker 1: but he knew, he knew. He saw me in my
Speaker 1: band play and he told my mom one night he said,
Speaker 1: I feel like I can rest like the music is
Speaker 1: in good hands. That was a very sweet thing. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that was an accurate thing, but he
Speaker 1: but that's what he said. So he he really believed
Speaker 1: in me and supported me. So I came out to
Speaker 1: l A and just did it, you know. But I
Speaker 1: tell my daughter, I'm like, I do wish I had
Speaker 1: had to read more. I wish I read a lot now.
Speaker 1: But you know, when I moved to l A, I
Speaker 1: just stopped all the education and I was like in
Speaker 1: a rock and roll band and I and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I wish I wish I had a learned cryptography. I
Speaker 1: wish I had a learned more programming and my I'm
Speaker 1: learning it now, but I feel handicapped by it. And
Speaker 1: and I wish that I had have had more extensive
Speaker 1: literature your classes, because I didn't read Rimbo and I
Speaker 1: didn't read until like late and I'm just getting into
Speaker 1: it now. And like I love like Hemingway, but I've
Speaker 1: only read like one book of his. You know, I
Speaker 1: loved Bukawski. I've read a bunch of his poetry and
Speaker 1: a bunch of his books. But in the last couple
Speaker 1: of years, like I really wish I had a hadn't
Speaker 1: done all that. But I don't know if college would
Speaker 1: have been for me, because because going all the way
Speaker 1: with all the other courses, I don't I think I
Speaker 1: would have been too frustrated to because I wanted to
Speaker 1: make music right away. You know what I mean? Okay,
Speaker 1: music is the family business. That's both the blessing and
Speaker 1: a curse. So tell me about that. I mean, how
Speaker 1: you decide to go in the family business. Inherently you're
Speaker 1: in your father's shadow. Well, you know, it's so weird
Speaker 1: because I almost looked at what I was doing is
Speaker 1: a completely different business. Because I loved country music, but
Speaker 1: I had not fallen in love with it like I
Speaker 1: I loved my dad's music, and I knew my dad's music,
Speaker 1: and I knew Willie's music, and I would listen to
Speaker 1: my dad like but I was an MTV kid. I listened.
Speaker 1: I listened to you know, my first record I bought
Speaker 1: with my own money. Was Dad's a one, and I
Speaker 1: like had like guns and Roses was a big band.
Speaker 1: And I would go to Sam Goody and I would
Speaker 1: watch MTV and I would watch like all of that
Speaker 1: the real world, and I was I was really in
Speaker 1: that world, and that was a completely different world than
Speaker 1: what my dad was, you know. And in Nashville had
Speaker 1: no appeal to me because at the time, Garth Brooks
Speaker 1: and all of that was big and I was too
Speaker 1: young to know about the Layla's scene like where three
Speaker 1: came out of and b R five for nine and
Speaker 1: all that that. I wasn't into that at the time.
Speaker 1: I was like, I thought, in my mind, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be in a rock band. So there's two places
Speaker 1: to go. It's the l A or New York. And
Speaker 1: I had loved l A from a little kid, like
Speaker 1: my dad. I came here when I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I was five years old. My dad was
Speaker 1: shooting um this stage Coach remake they did with all
Speaker 1: the Highwayman guys in it, and we stayed in like
Speaker 1: Beverly Hills, which is like hoity toity, I know, but
Speaker 1: it's like, uh, we stayed at a hotel, and I
Speaker 1: would make my mom take me over to I have
Speaker 1: like a second mom that lived and traveled with his
Speaker 1: name Maureen Rafferty, who who was like still a saint
Speaker 1: in my life, and I would have her take me
Speaker 1: into Hollywood because because I was obsessed with the Muppet movie.
Speaker 1: I love the Muppets, and they went to Hollywood, and
Speaker 1: there was this vision in my mind that that was
Speaker 1: the dream Factory, that that's really the reason why I
Speaker 1: moved to you know, I love it, you know, at
Speaker 1: the end with Worston Wells, Yeah, yeah, tell you. I'll
Speaker 1: tell him to write the standard Richard Famous contract, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: And Paul Williams and the whole thing, like that movie
Speaker 1: in itself was like like a training course of the
Speaker 1: greats of film and music in a weird way, you know.
Speaker 1: And so I was as a kid just obsessed with it,
Speaker 1: and I would like want to go into Hollywood, you know,
Speaker 1: and so so it kind of was always in my mind.
Speaker 1: And I still tell people it's like the Muppet Movie
Speaker 1: was the first thing that made me want to move here,
Speaker 1: and and it really and it's still it's so weird.
Speaker 1: I'm forty two years old and I still have the
Speaker 1: same feeling I had as a little kid here, like
Speaker 1: even just the history. Like I said, I love Bikowski,
Speaker 1: and I love like Marilynn row locations, and I love
Speaker 1: like all the band like the Warren Zevon and all
Speaker 1: the pockets of history, and I still get this feeling
Speaker 1: like it's still such a magical place to me, even
Speaker 1: even through all the changes that have happened here and
Speaker 1: all the craziness and how expensive it is, It's like
Speaker 1: there's still a little piece of me that's like I
Speaker 1: still feel like Kermit the Frog going to Hollywood and
Speaker 1: being here, you know, and and now I feel the
Speaker 1: same way. I know exactly what you're talking. Are you here, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm in l a I didn't have since before you
Speaker 1: were born. To me. When I grew up, California was
Speaker 1: a dream I used to beg my mother, Let's move
Speaker 1: to California. Let's move to California. I always say I
Speaker 1: moved to California because of the beach boys. They were
Speaker 1: seeing about a much better life. And it's just like
Speaker 1: I came to California, so it's true, Well I'm going there.
Speaker 1: That sounds like we have a lot in common. Then
Speaker 1: in that way. In that sense, I think I might
Speaker 1: have known that, but I think for some reason I
Speaker 1: thought you were on the East Coast. I don't know
Speaker 1: what I'm thinking, but but like, uh, I don't know
Speaker 1: what part of town you live in, but but I've
Speaker 1: kind of moved all around and I love this town
Speaker 1: and I still have that same kind of feeling like
Speaker 1: them uppets where my beach boys. And then you know,
Speaker 1: then there was like guns and Roses, and of course,
Speaker 1: like you know, Noted Nails was here and they all
Speaker 1: these guys had moved here, and I was like, that's
Speaker 1: where you gotta go. Has you gotta go there? So
Speaker 1: like in New York, while I loved loved it, it
Speaker 1: just wasn't my speed. It was like this is the weather.
Speaker 1: I didn't like the cold winners and and coal and
Speaker 1: hot human summers. In Nashville, I was like, well what
Speaker 1: I like about it? You know, you might know Nashville
Speaker 1: because I grew up in the suburbs, and l A
Speaker 1: is a giant suburbs. You can have a car, you
Speaker 1: can park. You know that makes terrible traffic, but it
Speaker 1: feels comfortably. You're supposed to being in a high rise
Speaker 1: all glob together. Yeah, totally. It's very similar to like Nashville,
Speaker 1: Like it was very easy trans issue. It's just like
Speaker 1: much more beautiful, you know. And and at the time too,
Speaker 1: my dad was getting sicker and he couldn't handle the
Speaker 1: cold winters in Nashville, so they would start going to Arizona.
Speaker 1: My dad always loved Arizona. My mom's from there. They
Speaker 1: started going to Arizona in the winters, and I was
Speaker 1: old enough where I would not go all the time.
Speaker 1: I would stay at home in Nashville. And they rent
Speaker 1: a house. So when I told him I was going
Speaker 1: to come here, he was like, His threat to me was, well,
Speaker 1: then I'm going to sell this house and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: move to Arizona. And I was like, okay, do it, Dad,
Speaker 1: I'm ready, let's do it, you know, and he was like,
Speaker 1: damn it. It It didn't work, but but he did, and
Speaker 1: we just kind of migrated west, you know, and and
Speaker 1: to me, like it felt like home and then I
Speaker 1: could get to them very easily. They lived in Arizona.
Speaker 1: My mom still lives there and I drive down to
Speaker 1: see her and you know all that. So it all
Speaker 1: kind of worked out. But but it was it was
Speaker 1: the thing. I wanted to come here, and I wanted
Speaker 1: to skip college and I want to just try my
Speaker 1: hand at it, and and I wasn't And I didn't
Speaker 1: like the Wayland's Sun business either, like that. It's as
Speaker 1: proud as I was about him, I felt like people
Speaker 1: couldn't see me, you know, and I would. I didn't
Speaker 1: want to be that. And as many handouts as I
Speaker 1: could have gotten with it, I really wanted to really
Speaker 1: do my own thing. And I felt like in l A,
Speaker 1: I could be this transplant. And it was really like
Speaker 1: that nobody gave a ship like at all, like you
Speaker 1: know who my dad was, especially country and stuff there.
Speaker 1: Occasionally I would meet someone like you met like Jerry
Speaker 1: Cantrell very early on, and he was like, you're Jennings
Speaker 1: and I was thinking, he's like right on, like he
Speaker 1: knew he was said to my dad, you know, but
Speaker 1: there are very few people who were like that, um,
Speaker 1: so you know. And it did just that, and I
Speaker 1: felt like it's like I'm I'm proud that I've stayed
Speaker 1: here because I've had a lot of friends that have left,
Speaker 1: and I'm proud because I've hung onto it. And I
Speaker 1: really loved this city. I I go to Nashville. I
Speaker 1: don't recognize it, but I love Los Angeles and I
Speaker 1: would do anything for this city. It's given me my children,
Speaker 1: it's given me my life, it's given me my wife.
Speaker 1: It's you know, so to me, like, I feel like
Speaker 1: it was the best decision I ever made. But as
Speaker 1: long as I can just make enough money to live here. Okay,
Speaker 1: your father dies when you're young, how does that affect you? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, it's weird because like I was
Speaker 1: twenty two, and I remember when it happened, and it
Speaker 1: was it was a shock, but like at that age,
Speaker 1: it that I just the other day, I was talking
Speaker 1: to someone who whose father just died, a young man.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember who it was, and he was
Speaker 1: saying that He's like, I didn't cry, you know, and
Speaker 1: I cried, but I was like I felt like I
Speaker 1: had to be strong, and I was also I just
Speaker 1: twenty two. You don't really appreciate things. And this is
Speaker 1: kind of goes back to my apology in the beginning
Speaker 1: of this too, because it's like, you know, the periods
Speaker 1: of time in my twenties, I don't know what I
Speaker 1: was thinking. It's even like with social media, like I'm
Speaker 1: completely off of it. And I just there were periods
Speaker 1: of time when I you're so narcissistic in your youth
Speaker 1: that you don't realize what you're sending out and you
Speaker 1: don't realize what you're receiving, and you kind of just
Speaker 1: you're operating on instincts and they're not always right. And
Speaker 1: I think, like with my dad's dying, at the time,
Speaker 1: I was like the tough guy, like, I can make
Speaker 1: it through this. He was sick for a long time,
Speaker 1: so we were prepared for it. You know, he had
Speaker 1: been he had been struggling with his health for for
Speaker 1: a good five six years, so you know, there was
Speaker 1: definitely not easy, but it was it. I just kind
Speaker 1: of powered through it. And and at the time I was,
Speaker 1: I was in the middle of everything we were I
Speaker 1: just you know, I did my my band broke up
Speaker 1: that the year right after that, and when I started
Speaker 1: doing my own thing, and I got in the relationship
Speaker 1: with my kids mom and uh, we had kind of
Speaker 1: a whirlwind relationship that happened. And then I was going
Speaker 1: back and forth, visiting New York and doing all this time.
Speaker 1: I just never processed any of this, you know, And
Speaker 1: and then once I had kids, And it's really not
Speaker 1: even until like the last probably ten years that it's
Speaker 1: really like I've realized, a I didn't really know what
Speaker 1: to do in a lot of cases in my life,
Speaker 1: and I don't know that I made the right decisions,
Speaker 1: but I I was always operating on what I thought
Speaker 1: he would do, but I never I always I kind
Speaker 1: of had to defend for myself in a way, even
Speaker 1: though my mom is awesome and strong, you know, But
Speaker 1: it definitely, it definitely kind of cut it kind of
Speaker 1: stunted one part of my growth, you know, especially because
Speaker 1: of how uh close my dad and I were, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. But again, like I didn't really
Speaker 1: mourn it. I didn't really. I had never really mourned
Speaker 1: it in a weird way. It's like I kind of gradually,
Speaker 1: I think, started to mourn it, but more in his death.
Speaker 1: But man, but it was weird because like once I
Speaker 1: released my first single, my first sorry solo record, is
Speaker 1: when I like started to feel the shadow. I had
Speaker 1: never felt that before because I had this rock band
Speaker 1: in l A and then all this. So I'm doing
Speaker 1: these records that are kind of country themed and I'm
Speaker 1: kind of like giving my day, add using like the
Speaker 1: Whyland logo on them because I was like proudly flying it,
Speaker 1: you know, in his absence, and he'd only been dead
Speaker 1: two years or so, so I was kind of like
Speaker 1: like embracing his legacy and doing my own thing with it.
Speaker 1: And I realized very quickly, like oh wow, like like
Speaker 1: that shadow thing it exists out there. Doesn't exist here
Speaker 1: in l A, but it exists once I put myself
Speaker 1: out there, you know. So that was also my own
Speaker 1: kind of like struggle with it and understanding it without
Speaker 1: him here, you know. Um. But but at the same time,
Speaker 1: like you know, it wasn't until like I had my kids,
Speaker 1: and then that changed because my daughter Alabama's fourteen now,
Speaker 1: like she's like just we're a lot a lot alike,
Speaker 1: and she's very in her own head and creative, and
Speaker 1: I can do everything by myself and very independent. And
Speaker 1: my son, who is we call black Jack, but his
Speaker 1: name is Whalen. Also he uh, he's like a little barbarian,
Speaker 1: like he likes, he likes he's really into computers, really
Speaker 1: in the video games, so that that side of me
Speaker 1: is there, but he's like doesn't know what he's gonna
Speaker 1: do quite with his life. But he's like into everything,
Speaker 1: you know. And once I kind of like as a parent,
Speaker 1: kind of saw what it was like and what the
Speaker 1: responsibility was and how the relationship could be, it started
Speaker 1: to get I started to mourn my dad, but I
Speaker 1: also started to understand aside that I didn't understand before,
Speaker 1: which is just like how attentive he was to me,
Speaker 1: because it would been like my old older brothers and sisters,
Speaker 1: Like they got the Whalon that was on the road
Speaker 1: in the very early parts of his career. They lived
Speaker 1: with their mom and Texas for a long time. Then
Speaker 1: they came and worked for him on the road, so
Speaker 1: they were there for all the crazy stuff in the seventies,
Speaker 1: you know, I got the older, kinder, gentler Whalon that
Speaker 1: was in his forties and and cleaning his act up
Speaker 1: and going into this like legacy twilight phase of his career,
Speaker 1: and he was very attentive to me, like and I
Speaker 1: think I was. I realized how attentive he was to
Speaker 1: me after I had kids and realized how important it
Speaker 1: was to be attentive to them and how much it meant,
Speaker 1: how much it fulfilled something in me, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Okay, your father dies, their assets, songs, records, uh,
Speaker 1: name and likeness. Do you benefit financially from any of
Speaker 1: that or your that's all your mother or when she passes,
Speaker 1: will you benefit or you have to share it with people?
Speaker 1: What's going on there? Well, there's uh, you know, I
Speaker 1: didn't we didn't like when he passed away, Like the
Speaker 1: trust is in my mom's name and all that, and
Speaker 1: there are certain things that of course will go to
Speaker 1: all my other brothers and sisters. They're like a couple
Speaker 1: of have passed away, but like my brother Buddy, and
Speaker 1: there's grandchildren and everything like like for instance, the Dukes
Speaker 1: of Hazard song, the publishing from that song is split
Speaker 1: across all the kids and grandkids already, so that that
Speaker 1: that has happened. But I don't, you know, I never
Speaker 1: got like some payout and and I don't really anticipate
Speaker 1: one because a lot of that, you know was me
Speaker 1: and my my A lot of that was my mom
Speaker 1: and my dad's legacy, and she, while she is maintained
Speaker 1: it and kept up with it. Um you know, that's
Speaker 1: that's basically been her thing that you know when she goes.
Speaker 1: I know, my sister Jennifer, that's her daughter and everything.
Speaker 1: I'm sure, you know, I'm sure like certain things will
Speaker 1: get transferred where they are and I know what goes
Speaker 1: where and everything. But to me, like that's all, it's
Speaker 1: all part of his legacy. And I like hate the
Speaker 1: idea of even thinking about that because it's like again
Speaker 1: like I never looked at his thing as a monetary thing,
Speaker 1: like I look, I deal with his his legacy all
Speaker 1: the time, Like I started the merchandise company that we do.
Speaker 1: I I've been working to do a film about his life.
Speaker 1: I have all these masters that we're going through and
Speaker 1: I'm involved in all of the kind of legacy stuff.
Speaker 1: We just signed a deal with a great guy, Philip
Speaker 1: phil Sandhouse, who works at um W ME Legends to
Speaker 1: manage the estate. We've stayed away from that for a
Speaker 1: long time. We did it ourselves, and now I really
Speaker 1: felt like we we found the right partner and we
Speaker 1: needed to to kind of move it that way because
Speaker 1: and you talk to my mom, She'll say, you better
Speaker 1: get a movie out. All the Whitland fans are dying.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you know, she says stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and so in that keeping that kind of jokingly but
Speaker 1: but like keeping all that in mind. I really felt
Speaker 1: like at this point, I'm getting so busy, I'm getting older,
Speaker 1: my mom's getting older, Like we need to like put
Speaker 1: this in the hands of somebody that can really manage
Speaker 1: it and grow it and recapture masters and do things
Speaker 1: that we've tried to do but never had like the
Speaker 1: reach in the in the power to do. So that's
Speaker 1: been cool, but I'm I'm involved in all that. But
Speaker 1: as far as like pay out after you know, what
Speaker 1: happens happens, I look at it like it's going to
Speaker 1: go to my kids whatever I get, And I look
Speaker 1: at I look, I'm already at a place in my
Speaker 1: life where everything I do is to try and set
Speaker 1: up a life for them or at least leave something
Speaker 1: for them. So to me, that will be awesome if
Speaker 1: if some of that comes and helps their life. But
Speaker 1: I'm looking at it like I gotta do that all
Speaker 1: by myself, and if that happens, it happens. I hope
Speaker 1: my mom never dies. I hope they figured a way
Speaker 1: to make her a cyborg and she lasts longer than
Speaker 1: everybody else, you know. So so it is what it is.
Speaker 1: But Okay, a lot of the records you were involved
Speaker 1: with can be classified under the Americana umbrella. So tell
Speaker 1: me what do you think about that scene and where
Speaker 1: it fits in the overall scene. Well, I have I
Speaker 1: have opinions on it because Okay, first of all, like
Speaker 1: I love Jed Hilly, and he's been very kind to me,
Speaker 1: and he's been very kind to the whole scene. I
Speaker 1: know that, like the Americana thing was kind of born
Speaker 1: out of this John pryor Nammy Lou Harris era of
Speaker 1: things that were happening, and so I look at it
Speaker 1: as a great thing. But I have this other opinion
Speaker 1: that I remember like Tyler Children, and I always felt
Speaker 1: this way. And and he's a I love him, He's
Speaker 1: a good friend of mine, and and he's he's an
Speaker 1: amazing singer. And I always felt like and and Jed Hilly,
Speaker 1: like I said, God bless him. I love love what
Speaker 1: he's doing. But I kind of felt like when you
Speaker 1: created Americana, it created a license to root for country,
Speaker 1: to go down the gutter. And I feel like had
Speaker 1: there never been Americana, that maybe a lot of these
Speaker 1: other artists would have been kind of considered country, and
Speaker 1: it might have it might have kind of kept us
Speaker 1: from they kept country from maybe going as far down
Speaker 1: the path as it currently has. That that being said,
Speaker 1: we don't I don't know that that is the case.
Speaker 1: I definitely don't know if like shovels and rope would
Speaker 1: have been gotten the chance that they got in the
Speaker 1: country Moniker. And at the end of the day, I
Speaker 1: think genres are kind of outdated in the first place,
Speaker 1: because they were always just a marketing tool for radio
Speaker 1: and stores, which are both kind of gone. But you know,
Speaker 1: I always felt like Americana was like creating an area
Speaker 1: for for the country world to say, no, that's not us,
Speaker 1: that's to us to this, put it over to Americana,
Speaker 1: you know, and it kind of like created a ditch
Speaker 1: to throw all the stuff that that was expanding the
Speaker 1: borders of country, you know, and this allowed them to
Speaker 1: kind of keep inside there a little like uh, you
Speaker 1: know whatever you call it echo chamber, you know. So
Speaker 1: so I'm kind of conflicted on on it, but I
Speaker 1: appreciate it, and I appreciate the hard work that has
Speaker 1: gone into making it become as big as it has.
Speaker 1: And like, like for instance, Brandy, Brandy was upset that
Speaker 1: her new record, the Grammy Stuff for Right On Time
Speaker 1: was considered pop and that was done by the Grammys.
Speaker 1: They made that choice, and she was upset by it
Speaker 1: because she felt like, as a LGBTQ woman who had
Speaker 1: fought like she had to get where she is, that
Speaker 1: the representation Americana was very important, which I agree, you know,
Speaker 1: and a representation in country as well. But I, on
Speaker 1: the other hand, when I spoke to her about this,
Speaker 1: I was like, I think this is a fantastic thing
Speaker 1: because look at who is generally in the pop category,
Speaker 1: and then look what you're doing. And if if you know,
Speaker 1: on the chance that we win or if we don't,
Speaker 1: either either way, it's already happened that this has now
Speaker 1: been accepted as pop. So like, think of how much
Speaker 1: better pop might get because you're in this this you know,
Speaker 1: you're you're all of a sudden, they're now going to
Speaker 1: have to take the plastic stuff and put it next
Speaker 1: to something that's very real, and I think that's that's
Speaker 1: a very important thing. So so in that way, I
Speaker 1: feel like it was a really cool choice. And if
Speaker 1: she wins, I was like, think how much better music
Speaker 1: might get, you know, because they're gonna try and copy
Speaker 1: that success, you know, So I look at it like that,
Speaker 1: but um, at the same time, you know, it's genres.
Speaker 1: And Buddy Holly told my Daddy told me at a
Speaker 1: very young age, he said, Buddy Holly told him. He said,
Speaker 1: don't call yourself country or don't call yourself rock, call
Speaker 1: yourself pop because you've always got room to wiggle in
Speaker 1: any direction from that. And I always took that to mind,
Speaker 1: like pop is the center and if you can get
Speaker 1: right there, then you can be anything you know at
Speaker 1: any time. So who knows. Okay, But the scene has changed, certainly,
Speaker 1: I'm older than you. We have the Beatles in the
Speaker 1: FM explosion after that and the seventies, we're all about that.
Speaker 1: You cannot have a hit single. You could be a
Speaker 1: gigantic act, you know, Stairway to Heaven, not a single.
Speaker 1: MTV comes along turns it into a monoculture. If you're
Speaker 1: on MTV, you're incredibly successful, and it's about having the
Speaker 1: hit single. Then more than ever nineties or an era
Speaker 1: of confusion, you have the Seattle scene, you have hip hop.
Speaker 1: Then the Internet comes along blows it all apart. Yea,
Speaker 1: So what do we know? You know, we fought the
Speaker 1: trif al trading wars, streaming is here, but the media
Speaker 1: continues to focus on what they consider to be hits,
Speaker 1: the Spotify Top fifty, which have a smaller part of
Speaker 1: the overall marketplace than ever before. So I guess when
Speaker 1: you're working in the area, other than with brand you
Speaker 1: who had such huge success, a lot of these other
Speaker 1: artists you're working with, I would assume, And that's why
Speaker 1: I want to know it's not about having a hit signal,
Speaker 1: but by the same token, it must be frustrating that
Speaker 1: to a degree they're ghetto wised and they're not bigger
Speaker 1: boy the same token, they're actually pretty big, just people
Speaker 1: don't know. Then, as you talk about the plastic stuff,
Speaker 1: you know, the Americana forgetting how the music sounds, that
Speaker 1: where you that's where you might go for songs that
Speaker 1: actually say something and those usually resonate most. So what
Speaker 1: do you think about all that? Well, I had to
Speaker 1: say that there was one of your lessons letters where
Speaker 1: you you talked about this with the Spotify by and
Speaker 1: and all of that, and I loved it. I remember
Speaker 1: feeling that you really were saying something I wish I could.
Speaker 1: It has been a long time, so I don't can't
Speaker 1: remember exactly what you were saying in it, all of it,
Speaker 1: but you were saying something that I you know, here
Speaker 1: we are what what unfortunately I think has happened. I
Speaker 1: know this is quite the answer to what you're saying,
Speaker 1: but I'll say it very quickly. Is that, like it's
Speaker 1: like with social media, the Internet is an open protocol,
Speaker 1: but like people, for people to understand it, it it had
Speaker 1: to be translated in terms they can understand at first,
Speaker 1: Like not everybody are going to be computer nerds and
Speaker 1: figure out that you can just do all of this
Speaker 1: peer to peer stuff. So so like Twitter and all
Speaker 1: these other companies figured out or Spotify or anything that
Speaker 1: you could build a layer on top of it that
Speaker 1: would be a translation layer for people who didn't really
Speaker 1: made it very easy to use what the Internet was,
Speaker 1: but then therefore gain control over all of the information
Speaker 1: very quickly. So there's this layer that could be cut out.
Speaker 1: Of course, there's not like a technological solution that has
Speaker 1: been built that that would be easy enough for people
Speaker 1: to use, but there people figured out where we can
Speaker 1: build this layer very quickly make all the money you know,
Speaker 1: so to me, like with with all of the Spotify
Speaker 1: and the kind of lack of hits and everything. It
Speaker 1: is frustrating because I see artists write songs or or
Speaker 1: have songs that are so profoundly good. Um, and I
Speaker 1: also see them be influenced by the news system and
Speaker 1: how like it all works in trying to apply to
Speaker 1: that and like like you're saying it in a great way,
Speaker 1: because when you had hits, Like I'll tell you a
Speaker 1: really random example is Betty Davis Eyes the Kim Karen's
Speaker 1: song Okay, And it's like such a it just sticks
Speaker 1: in your head and is such an amazing beautiful chords
Speaker 1: and the changes, and it's kind of reflective of the
Speaker 1: time of what tracks sounded like and everything. But those
Speaker 1: songs still make so much money and they still resonate,
Speaker 1: you know. And people were writing too to the to
Speaker 1: get hits in a way and it was working. And
Speaker 1: those songs are still out there and still making money
Speaker 1: and still are big hits and people still love them.
Speaker 1: And now and then when now people make records, yeah,
Speaker 1: like they're not writing to have hits, but at the
Speaker 1: same time, I think that they don't. Like it's hard
Speaker 1: to explain this. It's like it's almost like the the
Speaker 1: someone could write that song now and I feel like
Speaker 1: it would resonate just the same as it did in
Speaker 1: the eighties. I mean, but but would it would it
Speaker 1: even connect? Would would it go up the charts? Would
Speaker 1: it get on this Spotify playlist? Like the entire process
Speaker 1: I feel like has has kind of numbed people's concept
Speaker 1: of songwriting and what they should do and what they
Speaker 1: shouldn't do, and and and I don't, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not really making a lot of sense because I'm just
Speaker 1: doing I just gotta feel like it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: things are changing in a way because it's almost like
Speaker 1: artists don't have hopes of becoming Like when I went
Speaker 1: and moved to l a like Kermit the Frog, my
Speaker 1: dream wasn't to get rich, but the concept was if
Speaker 1: you could do something this type of art, then you
Speaker 1: could go and make a career out of it. And
Speaker 1: you could then go and if you were lucky and
Speaker 1: if you were good, you could go and make a difference.
Speaker 1: You could change, like the way that Trent Resner changed
Speaker 1: my approach and made me really want to play music
Speaker 1: I hoped to do to somebody else, you know, And
Speaker 1: but now like like to buy a five thou dollar
Speaker 1: les Paul's almost out of the question for most artists
Speaker 1: or people starting up, because like you've got to really
Speaker 1: make some serious touring money to really get some serious
Speaker 1: gear and and and it comes. It's so much more
Speaker 1: of a struggle that like there's almost like an anti
Speaker 1: songs that really resonate with people mindset. It's almost this
Speaker 1: kind of like like it's almost cool to to I mean,
Speaker 1: besides obviously like there's certain markets like hip hop and
Speaker 1: some other ones where they're really being innovative and really
Speaker 1: doing stuff that does really resonate and and is experimental
Speaker 1: and cool. But it's almost like like everything else has
Speaker 1: kind of been beaten to death to the point where
Speaker 1: people are kind of trying their hardest, but they know
Speaker 1: they're never gonna, you know, take it to this other level.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, it's it's kind of it's kind
Speaker 1: of heartbreaking to watch. And that's why it's awesome when
Speaker 1: you see somebody breakthrough, like Chris Stapleton, for instance, with
Speaker 1: like no radio play, doing this whole thing that was
Speaker 1: real and just you know what it maybe it just
Speaker 1: took the timber Lake and him on the c m
Speaker 1: A Awards or whatever it was, but like overnight, he's
Speaker 1: selling two million copies of and there's great songs on there.
Speaker 1: But had that not happened, maybe it would have just
Speaker 1: stayed in the lane it was in. I mean maybe
Speaker 1: if that was the moment or whatever, the moment was
Speaker 1: that kind of splash moment. I guess, like what you
Speaker 1: said makes the most sense here is that MTV was
Speaker 1: that you could instantly have that effect if you really
Speaker 1: made it onto these centralized channels and I in Spotify.
Speaker 1: While it is the same kind of thing, it's not.
Speaker 1: You're not a hit overnight on this stuff. You're not.
Speaker 1: You don't go on David Letterman is a comic and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're huge in the country. Like now,
Speaker 1: if you go on Colbert and your comic it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean anything, you know what I mean? So, like people,
Speaker 1: the way people digest things has changed so much that
Speaker 1: it almost is affecting the way the songs are made
Speaker 1: and the way songs are written and and all of
Speaker 1: that seems like a really negative thing, but I think
Speaker 1: there will be a turnaround to it. But okay, let's
Speaker 1: say you gave the example of Stapleton and you know
Speaker 1: it's all great, but let's leave him aside. In terms
Speaker 1: of a lower league, the American league, the only person
Speaker 1: who has truly broken through is Jason is Bill. That's right.
Speaker 1: Has another artist not broken through because they're not writing
Speaker 1: Betty Davis size or is the system holding them back?
Speaker 1: You know? I think it's it's like the system perpetuates
Speaker 1: the problem, and then therefore, like the system is holding
Speaker 1: them back, therefore they're not writing the Bettie Davis eye.
Speaker 1: Like somehow it's almost like the the banks, you know,
Speaker 1: like they like corruption perpetuates at the expense of the
Speaker 1: people to the point where like you have, like there's
Speaker 1: a great speech in the movie I Love called Sneakers
Speaker 1: that that that's my favorite movie of all time, the
Speaker 1: Ben Kingsley speech where he's talking about the the kind
Speaker 1: of cycle of corruption and how it perpetuates itself, not
Speaker 1: saying that all this is corruption, but but it kind
Speaker 1: of That's what kind of popped into my mind, was that,
Speaker 1: because it's almost like the problem perpetuates the almost lack
Speaker 1: of confidence and artists in a weird way. Like Isabel
Speaker 1: is a great example because he he's he writes great
Speaker 1: songs that really stick with people. I remember you wrote
Speaker 1: a thing about Jamie Johnson one time, and I loved
Speaker 1: it and it was one of the first me too.
Speaker 1: But he's a great example to me who wrote those
Speaker 1: kind of songs, who writes those kind of songs that
Speaker 1: that really stick in your head and perpetuate its or
Speaker 1: and and and you know, really hooks and beautiful compositions.
Speaker 1: And now he's not writing, you know, like he's in
Speaker 1: a physician, he's not cutting records. And I'm like, like,
Speaker 1: is it the system that that broke Jamie in this situation?
Speaker 1: Because like I want to, I always tell him, I'm
Speaker 1: and me and I have been closed for years, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, please let me do a record on you, please,
Speaker 1: you know, And he and he wants he's writing stuff
Speaker 1: and he's recording stuff. But I don't know why he's that.
Speaker 1: I don't know where he's at with it, and and
Speaker 1: it's his journey and I respect it all the way.
Speaker 1: But like I could use like another one of his
Speaker 1: songs right now, and I think, you know, country music
Speaker 1: could use it. So I wonder is that he has
Speaker 1: that mentally affected him, Has the system having kind of changed,
Speaker 1: like he was in the middle of it while it
Speaker 1: was changing. Has that given him an impression or a
Speaker 1: feeling that he that he just kind of doesn't want
Speaker 1: to jump into this or or you know. And I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to talk out of turn with him because
Speaker 1: he's my buddy. He knows, like I know, he writes
Speaker 1: some of the best songs. He sung some on the
Speaker 1: phone to me over the years that he wrote, and
Speaker 1: he hasn't recorded and put him out. So I'm always
Speaker 1: like why and is it? What is the you know,
Speaker 1: everyone's gonna love it, Like why, like please do it?
Speaker 1: You know, And I just sometimes wonder is it. Is
Speaker 1: it just the environment that kind of discourages certain artists
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, But then you have people
Speaker 1: like you said, like like Jason Nisbel who fought and
Speaker 1: fought and came from all these different areas, and that
Speaker 1: cuts this really there are different you know, his experiences,
Speaker 1: and it cuts this really intimate record after he finds
Speaker 1: a sobriety and it really hooks people and other people
Speaker 1: start covering his work and it's just and and to me,
Speaker 1: he's a great example of where true songwriting and talent
Speaker 1: meet and and really resonates with people you know, and
Speaker 1: and you have that and then you have like other
Speaker 1: guys who I don't even know any of their music
Speaker 1: in country or something that are selling out like massive arenas,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't get it, And I know
Speaker 1: people aren't dumb. I have faith in people like the
Speaker 1: average person. I think that they they get conditioned and
Speaker 1: trained to a certain thing, But I don't think that
Speaker 1: people don't have emotional feelings for music. Like again, if
Speaker 1: if Bendy David's Eyes came out and it was right
Speaker 1: next to like something really corny out there, I feel
Speaker 1: like someone would be like, man, that's a eight song,
Speaker 1: and like it would really hit them, you know. But
Speaker 1: people aren't writing those songs anymore. And it's even like
Speaker 1: like I was listening to Tina Turner. I was going
Speaker 1: through a bunch of Tina Turner and that she's such
Speaker 1: got so many great songs people wrote, whether it be
Speaker 1: even all the back to like Nutbush City Limits all
Speaker 1: the way to like simply the Best, And I was like,
Speaker 1: do you feel like if somebody wrote simply the Best,
Speaker 1: like Chris Stapleton wrote that and cut it, it would
Speaker 1: be huge. It would be as big as it was
Speaker 1: when she did it, you know what I mean? And
Speaker 1: you know, so, so I don't know, I don't have
Speaker 1: an answer. I think Americana definitely, like you said, it
Speaker 1: definitely is like a section in the store where you know,
Speaker 1: you can go over there and you can almost pick
Speaker 1: anything and you're gonna get something that that is meaningfully
Speaker 1: written and and thought out and thoughtful music. You know.
Speaker 1: So in that way, it's a great thing to have
Speaker 1: that access to. But how does that cut through? How
Speaker 1: do you know, how does that cut through all the noise?
Speaker 1: There's so much noise now, So I just I just
Speaker 1: kind of wonder. I think we're in an evolution that
Speaker 1: will it's going to solve itself. And I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of problems that people don't know were problems yet.
Speaker 1: But as technology and collectively as a culture, we start
Speaker 1: to become more aware. Like things like bitcoin are like wait,
Speaker 1: like that's become mainstream so quickly that I think people
Speaker 1: are going to start becoming aware of what has been
Speaker 1: going on with the Internet experience for them, and that
Speaker 1: might change the rules for Apple and Spotify, which I
Speaker 1: really hope it does. You know, when somebody wakes up
Speaker 1: and realizes, hey, like if there was a system in
Speaker 1: place with like cryptocurrency that was direct where you could
Speaker 1: still get music just as easily as you did. But
Speaker 1: now every time you play it, the artists, all the
Speaker 1: people that are supposed to get the cuts, producers, band members, whatever,
Speaker 1: would get payouts like every time somebody played their song instantly.
Speaker 1: That could totally be done. The infrastructures there, and Spotify
Speaker 1: wouldn't be taking a billion dollars of it, you know,
Speaker 1: and not to keep ripping them. I mean, look, they
Speaker 1: got they were smart, is what they are, you know,
Speaker 1: on ahead of the curve. But but like the infrastructures there,
Speaker 1: and eventually I think it will happen. When that happens,
Speaker 1: it might we might get back to that place where
Speaker 1: where there's a real future in in um in you know,
Speaker 1: in art, like movie like books got decimated. Music had
Speaker 1: the books as a running start, but it was too
Speaker 1: quick for them. They got decimated too. And then movies
Speaker 1: have been sitting back going, okay, we watched books, we
Speaker 1: want we watched this. Let's let's not let that happen
Speaker 1: to us. And even with like the Netflix, they've still
Speaker 1: figured out a model that works that better and didn't
Speaker 1: like totally decimate the industry, you know, but who knows.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to get a long discussion
Speaker 1: of this because soft topic. But I don't have you know,
Speaker 1: I think Spotify is not the enemy. They take of
Speaker 1: the overall pie. They have to pay all their expenses
Speaker 1: and it doesn't scale where people go on they have
Speaker 1: to pay. And historically, as you talked, now, it would
Speaker 1: be great if there was the blockchain and everything was direct.
Speaker 1: This is an opaque business and everybody involved other than
Speaker 1: the artist likes it that way. So you know, the
Speaker 1: English hearing said, the real problem is the labels themselves.
Speaker 1: But the other thing I must say is a lot
Speaker 1: of people complaining about lack of success were either in
Speaker 1: the old system, benefit from the old system, or still
Speaker 1: in that headspace when they made records a year and
Speaker 1: you're in a major label, you think you can still
Speaker 1: tour based on that promotion, whereas today there's sixty thousand
Speaker 1: tracks a day, so just getting noticed is hard. So
Speaker 1: when someone says, hey, you know I play music, I'm
Speaker 1: making any money? Well, okay, let's look at the Spotify.
Speaker 1: Think how many people are listening to you? Not that many.
Speaker 1: And the other thing is, prior to Spotify, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: be in the music business at all. I don't want
Speaker 1: to beat up on those people because you can transfer
Speaker 1: between these elements overnight. Grandy, but the interesting you think,
Speaker 1: you say, especially with Jamie Johnson within Color had incredible
Speaker 1: success on you know, an artistic success as well commercial success.
Speaker 1: And when you're talking about um, the overall state impacting
Speaker 1: the quality of the art, that's fascinating. For for twelve
Speaker 1: or fourteen years, we debated technology that's been figured out.
Speaker 1: We live in an on demand society. Ever you get
Speaker 1: your music, you're gonna get it on demand. So I
Speaker 1: agree with you. We're focusing on the software, i e.
Speaker 1: The music right now, and it will work itself out.
Speaker 1: It's just that we're in a crazy talk. Yeah, I agree,
Speaker 1: And I think we're in that like wild West period
Speaker 1: of of of everything socially solving. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: mean like in the world. I mean just like in
Speaker 1: music and an art It just just the entire system
Speaker 1: was so shaken by the Internet. The entire world was
Speaker 1: so shaken up by the Internet that I think it's it.
Speaker 1: We're still about ten years away from it being solved,
Speaker 1: all of these problems. But I do agree with you.
Speaker 1: I think you know, it's easy to blame Spotify and
Speaker 1: to blame Apple Music, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: they were just first to create a system which would
Speaker 1: allow the average person to be able to listen to
Speaker 1: all this music and the straining platform and do it
Speaker 1: in a way. With the new model, nobody's gonna want
Speaker 1: to pay per song, just like nobody's gonna want to
Speaker 1: pay for movie. You know. It's like that's why they
Speaker 1: gotta put every movie out on HBO Max and one thing,
Speaker 1: and they do the deal with HBO Max as opposed
Speaker 1: to asking people to to buy a copy of it
Speaker 1: every time. You know, So who knows and any of
Speaker 1: that listen, I can talk to you for days. You're
Speaker 1: a very warm, loquacious person, quite the rack and tour,
Speaker 1: and I can see why you're successful. But you're a
Speaker 1: very likable guy and whatever history that's in the your
Speaker 1: view mirror as far as I'm concerned. So thanks so
Speaker 1: much for taking the time to talk to me. Hey man,
Speaker 1: it's really an honor. And I think, like I just
Speaker 1: I just admire what you do and I love your
Speaker 1: words that I love your perspective, and it's almost like
Speaker 1: there's very few trusted sources anymore, but you're one of those,
Speaker 1: and I get you. Wouldn't believe how many people like
Speaker 1: I subscribe to your letter. But before I did, people
Speaker 1: would send me your letters about different topics that you
Speaker 1: do this, you know, check this out. And I don't
Speaker 1: even remember whatever the issue was, and I'm sure it
Speaker 1: was something stupid, and it was about country music as that,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I thought I was talking about.
Speaker 1: I have no idea, but uh, but like it's very insightful,
Speaker 1: very intelligent, and you ask really important questions and you
Speaker 1: you bring up really important issues. So to be able
Speaker 1: to meet you and be face to face and talk
Speaker 1: about this stuff to me is just it's a highlight.
Speaker 1: So I really appreciate it. And I hope maybe one
Speaker 1: day we can meet up in town and and have
Speaker 1: dinner or something. You know, I would love to do that.
Speaker 1: When this aw this COVID craziness is history. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: ready to get back into the real l A scene.
Speaker 1: So Shooter, thanks again so much for doing this. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Have a great day, man, you bet.
Speaker 1: Until next time, Bob se