WEBVTT - Shooter Jennings 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.240 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sense Podcast. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:17.360 My guest today is artist producer shootor Jenny Shooter. Good 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:19.760 to be here with you, man, Good to be here 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.400 with you. I understand. I's got to start by saying, 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:26.079 I owe you an apology because I guess I said 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.840 something about you on Twitter years ago, and I don't 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.200 know what I said because I love you. I think 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:34.360 you're a fantastic voice, and I love your letter. So 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:36.440 I don't know what I said, but whatever I said, 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:38.800 I'm sure who knows what I was thinking at the time, 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:41.279 And I'm sorry. Well, you and the mother of your 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.120 children were going on, but you were very nice about it. 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.080 Let's call that history. So okay, everybody in your life, 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.600 like your wife, etcetera, they all call you shooter or 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.440 do they call you something else? They all call me shooter. 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.480 I mean my wife Misty calls me s J sometimes, 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.880 but otherwise Shooter it is. It was always I used 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:03.680 to say, cops and uh, substitute teachers would call me 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.280 Whalen because it's just on my I D and that's 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.440 what my name is. But everyone else has always called 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:12.560 me shooter. Okay, so what are you working on right now. Man, 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:14.399 I've been working on a lot of records that you know, 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.320 I've kind of changed my focus a bit, which I 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.000 I I'm very happy with. I kind of always wanted 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.920 to get into production, had been doing it here and there, 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.319 but we really wanted to move towards that and really 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:28.640 in a you know, being on the road for so 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.040 many years, and while I've enjoyed it, I've always felt 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.920 like I kind of plateaued in different spots it and 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.680 and to be able to start working on records really 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:40.520 brought out a different joy. And now I've kind of 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.760 fast tracked that as my primary focus. So I'm working 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.000 on a lot of records. I just finished a record 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:48.640 on a band from Reno called hell Bound Glory, and 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.680 I started I'm starting another record on Tanya Tucker in January, 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.080 are second one, and and just kind of we just 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:57.600 you know, did Brandy did, a guy named av Kaplan, 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.080 Kelsey Walden, bunch of artists. I'm just kind of every 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.840 month doing records if I can. So why did you 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.480 always want to be a producer? Well, It's funny because 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.600 it's weird because like when I was young, I didn't 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.560 really realize how much I I really had a head 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.079 for for that part of the business. When I was young, 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.000 I set up a studio at my house where I 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.440 grew up at my my mom dad's house in Nashville, 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:23.679 because I wanted to be in a band. And I 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.520 was really inspired by nine Inch Nails because when I 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:28.840 was a computer kid and I was a keyboard kid, 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:33.640 and uh I when that when I really discovered nine 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.959 inch Nails and discovered that Trent Resider was doing a 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.119 lot of this stuff by himself, Like it was really 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:41.160 inspiring to me because I was like, hey, I could 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.200 I could probably learn to do this. I'm really into computers. 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.360 I played piano, I played drums a little bit in 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.760 a little guitar, you know. So I started doing like 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.560 kind of like programming and making full productions at home. 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.000 And I had a couple of friends that were guitar 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.200 players because I wasn't a very good guitar player, so 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:00.240 they would be in my band and they would play tar, 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.720 and I would like program drums and things and and 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.000 I was always really focused on the on the production 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.920 layering and all that. And but in my heart, I 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.440 was I was young. I was like eighteen nineteen, you know, 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:12.760 and I wanted to be in a band, so, like, 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.280 you know, I felt like, well, this is how you 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:17.680 do it, all right, And and so I moved to 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.800 l A and and kind of got away from the 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.360 programming side, had a live band, and we we tried 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.360 real hard to get a deal and breakthrough and didn't 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.280 really ever get a big deal or anything. And then 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.280 I decided to kind of do my solo thing, and 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.160 I just went down that path for a long time. 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.640 And I met Dave Cobb very early on in that 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.920 and he we did like seven records together, and he 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:44.040 taught me so much about like because I hear I 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.840 was coming from this industrial side, and he was like 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.840 this Beatles guy, Like he knew everything about the Beatles. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:51.960 And I always say he put the he brought the 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.920 Beatles into country music like nowadays, because so much of 0:03:55.920 --> 0:04:00.960 his mindset was the Beatles and the Faces and all 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:05.320 this kind of that era English rock, you know. And 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:07.880 so he taught me so much about gear Like I 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.200 I just really didn't know anything about Abbey Road and 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.480 I and Mine and Chandler. So and it took me 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.640 a while to actually become a gearhead because I was 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.520 still in the band. He was my producer, you know, 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:19.800 and we we would kind of barrel along. And when 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.640 he when he moved to Nashville, I didn't want to 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.280 work with anybody else because I loved Dave, like still 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:27.400 to this day. He's he's like a brother to me. 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.720 And and so I decided, you know, I'm gonna I'm 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:32.960 gonna start doing my own records. And I and I 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.680 did um self produced uh two records of Mine Family 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.440 Man and the Other Life, Other Life, and uh, then 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.040 I started At that point, I there was a lot 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.440 of other bands that I liked out there in this 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:49.000 kind of burgeoning scene that later became like you know, 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.160 the Isbels and all these guys. But there was like 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.800 all these bands like uh, Scott h Biram and hell 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.039 Bound Glory and this band called Fifth on the Floor 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.880 from Kentucky, and and they were all kind of making 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.320 this great music, but they the records were like home spun, 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.520 you know. And so I started to say, like, hey, 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:08.480 maybe I could get into working with some of these 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.920 these other artists. They're like my age and and try 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.840 and like use what I had learned with Dave and 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.120 along the way to make good records on him, you know, 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:18.919 And it was hard to kind of break into that. 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:20.480 But I got to do a couple of records and 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.200 Jason Boland asked me to do a record on him. 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.000 He was the first person to ever asked me to 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.280 produce a record. And that was many years ago. It 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.520 was like two thousand twelve. We did a record and 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:35.200 it kind of started there. And then I met this manager, Um, 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.240 this guy that who became my manager. His name was 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.440 John Hensley. He passed away about five years ago, but 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.680 he um, he became like my best friend and and 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.120 he he was younger than me, but he really took 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.600 me under his wing to give me a different kind 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:54.680 of confidence. Um, because I had coming. I'm sorry to 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.520 ramble so much by no great keep going okay, okay, Um, 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.159 well John, you know like part of it. There was 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.480 like a kind of mental struggle with the whole like 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.240 be being Wayland's son thing, because I always not I 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:10.080 had no problem with it, Like my dad was a 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:11.880 great dad and we were very close and there was 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.600 no like riff for like any bitterness. But I think 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.520 I always felt like I had to be like a 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:22.920 certain way being his son, no matter what it was, 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.120 no matter how my career works. So John kind of 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.080 taught me like, don't do so many interviews. You don't 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.159 have to like you don't have to like be nice 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.320 to everybody, you have to go do everything like and 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.640 he kind of taught me how to like pull back 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.360 and he goes. And he also said, you know, you 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.119 need to be producing records. And he wanted to start 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:42.440 a label like we like Jack Whites, you know, third 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:44.560 Man Records, And at the time, there was a lot 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:46.560 of other people kind of popping up, like Ryan Adams 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:48.760 had his pack Sam and and he was like, we 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:50.839 can do that. Let's do that. And so me and 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.280 him started a label and then we started doing these 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.520 projects and they weren't like high profile projects or anything, 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:58.560 but we there were some cool ones that that got 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:00.400 mixed in there, Like I there was the thing with 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.000 Billy Ray Cyrus that was really fun, and did a 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.800 thing with like McK foley that was like a Christmas 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.280 album that him and his son did. And we did 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.760 all these kind of seven inches and kind of you know, 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.800 fun record store day projects, and he just really encouraged 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.240 me to keep producing and doing things like that. So 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.440 like as that started happening, I did this record of 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.200 my own because I was starting to get really experimental 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.160 and I did this record called Coon Tosh. It was 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.880 like a tribute to Georgio Moroder. And I had met 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.960 Brandy Carlisle in two thousand and twelve and we had 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.400 instantly hit it off. And I and she had these 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.280 tattoos on her arms that are the logo from the 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.440 never Ending Story and I'm a kid. I'm kind of 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:43.920 like the guy who's like trapped in his childhood, like 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.440 but by my own making. And I like it, you know. 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.440 But um so I loved that and we when I 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.080 was doing this Georgio Moroder record, Georgio wrote the never 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.400 Ending Story theme song. So I reached out to Brandy 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.520 and said, would you would you be on this album? 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:00.800 Like if you would, if you would be on this album, 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.720 I would put this out on my record. I put 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:06.000 the everything story on there, you know. And she did 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.600 it and we put it on the record, put it 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.679 out and everything. And then she called me and she said, 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:14.040 I don't know what it is, but I want you 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.800 to be involved in my next record. I want you 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.240 to help produce it. And I said, man, I was like, 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:21.440 this is the opportunity of a lifetime for me. Because 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.360 I loved her, and I was like, I would love to, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:25.320 and she goes, do you know Dave Cobb And I 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.840 go yes, I said, we've done seven records together. We've 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.800 we've done We're like brothers. Yeah, and she goes, well, 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.040 I want you both to do my record, and and 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.480 me and Dave hadn't worked together and in several years, 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.880 so I was like it was like a she brought 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.160 us back together in a way, and and uh, and 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:45.240 it was just that kind of kicked the doors open. 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.920 Then after that, like Duff mccagan and Marilyn Manson and 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.680 asked me to do their records, and and then um, 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.160 Tanya Tucker was my my project because I was I 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.960 was working with her, but I wanted to produce her. 0:08:58.000 --> 0:08:59.959 I had heard her sing on something I was producing. 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.320 I had had her sing on it, and I was like, wow, 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.160 she's so good still, She's just got it. And I 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.080 asked her I want to do a record, and and 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.880 I just kind of briefly mentioned it to Brandy after 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.880 we had done her record and everything, and and she said, 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.400 oh God, I loved Tanny Tucker. She's my favorite. I 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:17.240 used to sing all these songs and I go well, 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.040 why don't you co produce it with me? If you 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.200 I don't know all of her songs, I love Tanya, 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:22.720 but if you know all of her songs, you know 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.160 her voice, then let's let's do this together, you know. 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.280 And that's kind of kicked that off, and then like 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.840 everything kind of happened, and then I started being asked 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.080 to do a lot of records and and it just 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.400 it made it fulfilled something that I didn't realize it 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.319 was yearning I was yearning for, you know, because I've 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.480 been getting really worn out being away from my kids 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.360 and traveling on the road and kind of playing clubs 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.840 NonStop and and and doing one record maybe two records 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.640 a year. And to be able to do like all 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.360 these records constantly and work with other artists and like 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.200 their ideas and their visions and try and make them happen, 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.840 it like unlocked this side of me. That that was, 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.040 like I didn't realize was so fulfilling. And so after 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:03.480 that it was kind of like, I want to do 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.760 this constantly, and I but I thought, okay, five years, 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:08.480 five years, I'll be able to get off the road 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.120 and do it. And then the pandemic hit and it 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.280 like fast tracked the entire process, and even though it 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.640 was a horrible thing for the world, it was very 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.360 good for my emotional state in creative state because it 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.040 kind of opened fast tracked my my dreams, you know. 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.920 So there you go in a nutshell. No, that's a 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.199 great that's a great overview. So how did you actually 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.360 meet Dave Cobb? Uh? Well, so I had made some 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.920 demos for what would be my first record, put the 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.880 Obacky Country with UM the band there. I met him 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.360 here in l A. Uh the band guys, and we 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.720 put together a band and we've written all these songs 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:47.319 and made some demos and uh, we were going I 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:49.480 don't remember even remember the guy's name, but there was 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.760 a band called Hot Hot Heat back when this we 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.360 were doing this, it was like two thousand three. UM 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.199 and the producer who had done their album with that 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.600 song Bandages, I think was an aim of the song. 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.959 He was we were gonna work with him. And coincidentally, 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.280 when I moved to l A into nineteen or sorry 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.760 the year two thousand, I had a manager who moved 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.439 me here. His name was Shan Racigliano and his partner 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:18.240 was named Andrew Brightman, and uh, they co managed us, 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:19.960 and then at one point Sean split off and I 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.360 stayed with Sean, but Andrew and I remained friends. And 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.200 Andrew's twin brother was one of my dearest friends still is. 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:31.520 But Andrew manages Dave Cob. He got Andrew had gone 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.320 out of the artist management thing and gotten more into 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:38.559 the producer management thing. And I was gonna go do 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:40.840 this record with this hot, hot heat guy. And Andrew 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.840 called me and said, Hey, before you go meet this guy, 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:46.680 there's a guy who just moved to l A. He's 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:48.760 from your neck of the woods. I think you guys 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:50.800 would get along really well. I'd love for you to 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.199 like meet him. And and I went and met Dave 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.240 and and he had kind of just gotten here from 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.160 Atlanta and we had worked on some cool stuff, but 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.400 like I was really finding his way in l A. 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.719 And we kind of met and instantly loved each other. 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.080 And then we went in the studio and cut two 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.000 songs which ended up on that record, Um Daddy's Farm 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.720 and bustin Baylor County. We kind of at Paramount Studios 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.760 here and and it was so cool sounding. I was like, 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.720 this guy knows how to do what I want to do. 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.319 You know, it was like we just instantly we were 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.520 like rednecks who didn't didn't like being rednecks, and we're 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.079 like MTV kids and liked rock and roll and liked 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.080 all these other things and and like in that way, 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.360 we just were instantly like brothers. Like it was just 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.160 like a connection that was instant, you know. Okay, So 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:42.600 how has Dave changed with all his success, talking less 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.800 in terms of personality and more in terms of his productions. Well, 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:50.800 I think, I mean, Dave is like the coolest thing 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.920 about I mean, he hasn't changed, you know, personally really 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:58.080 in my opinion at all. He Uh, what's cool is 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:02.160 that the old Dave when when he was just starting out, 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.760 like you could tell like he was ready to play 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.920 in the room with all the gear. He was ready 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.920 to record the record at Abbey Road with the Beatles, 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.160 you know, but but like the world was catching up 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.560 to him. So like it's just awesome to see him. 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.720 Like once he got like our Cia Studio A and 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:19.880 he's got like all the gear he ever wanted, and 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.720 it's and he's like trading out boards and getting new 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.240 getting an a p I and then he gets sells 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.720 at and gets a Knave and like now he's getting 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.240 to play with all the stuff that he always dreamed of. 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.599 So it's like it's almost like fully realized Dave, you 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:34.720 know what I mean. It's like he he was there, 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:36.760 but the world was catching up to him, and not 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.160 once the world caught up to him, it's like, you know, 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.920 he's he's getting a lot of respect, which he very 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.720 much deserves. Well, he's the hottest guy in Nashville certainly 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.480 when you talk about credibility. So what is his secret sauce? 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:56.000 His secret sauce? I would say his he Okay, First 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.960 of all, Dave is like not afraid to to say 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.439 doesn't like something. You know, that's definitely like It's a 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.800 good thing about Dave is that he's he's a very 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:09.880 personable person. He's a Southerner, so he's a gentleman. But like, uh, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.800 you know, he he knows he knows how to steer 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.520 something in a direction that he wants gently, which is 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:21.400 a great thing. But I would say the greatest asset 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.840 with Dave is his knowledge of music, which with a 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.080 lot of producers this way, but his catalog of music 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.600 in his mind and what his taste is when it 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.600 comes to the equipment. Like you know, Dave is a 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.640 geared He's the gear guy. Like if I'm buying something, 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.680 I buy stuff from Dave all the time. Like when 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:40.680 we were doing Brandy's last record, he had this piece 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.240 of gear that was a it was a single channel 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:47.400 strip from the Electra Asylum board that they cut warren 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.920 Zevon warren z von On here in l a On 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.960 Los Angele Boulevard hit a single channel from it. He's like, 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:54.520 you want to buy it? I was like, yes, I 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.440 want to buy that. You know, he was over it. 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.040 He loved it, but he was over and ready to 0:14:58.040 --> 0:14:59.480 sell it, and I was like, I'm buying it. I'm 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.720 buying you. It's my favorite piece of gear. So the 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.560 thing about Dave is he collects all this stuff and 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.120 he's he knows everything about all this gear. So like 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.120 when you record with Dave, you know you're you're gonna 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.520 be getting something that's like so authentic and like old 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.520 school yet like modern. You know, like he just is 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.800 he's a sound crafter. And that's really like when you 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.000 when he he mixed the first Brandy record except for 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:26.920 the joke, and I loved it. When we were doing it, 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.360 he was like, I'm gonna mix this, and I was like, yes, 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.920 because I knew what that meant. You know, any other 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.640 mixer is is gonna do a great job, I'm sure, 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.000 but Dave, it's gonna sound like like a Beatles record. 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.240 It's gonna sound like a uh like you know, I 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.080 can't find my way home or like like uh, Paul 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.160 Simon like he's obsessed with all these these producers and 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.560 these engineers from those eras. So you know he has 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.880 studied that stuff and he's and he just shares the knowledge, 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.640 which is another thing that is fantastic about him. Okay, 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.120 you said he turned you into a gear head. Tell 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.400 me that process. Well, because I didn't, you know, like 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.800 when I was as a as the artist. Uh, I 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:11.560 was like, well, Dave's got it all. Why wh why 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.400 do why do I need you to go down this road? 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.320 You know? And then once I started getting into the 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.520 production side, I'm like, Okay, I need to start getting 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.120 some gear and like really learning the gear and like 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:22.520 so when I when I first started, I would call 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:24.680 Dave and I was like, hey, like I need to 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.440 get some preamps, you know, and and he would he'd 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.760 be he'd send me a reverb. Like he's like, these 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.800 are the actual preamps that we recorded Electric Rodeo on, 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.320 and it was these these E M I, t G 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:37.000 two and this channel or t G two And I 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:40.000 was like all right, you know so and then he's like, 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:41.320 and you need to get one of these. And then 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:42.920 like when I was doing the manson record, I was like, 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.760 he was like, you gotta get one of these hues. Uh. 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.040 There's this little box that's like it was made in 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:52.840 the nineties for UM. It was made for home stereo 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:57.080 systems to make it like using phase it would emulate 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.840 three D kind of sound, but on a home just 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.360 two speaker system. But like Chad Blake would use it 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.320 with reverb because you can like put reverb or any 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.639 channels through it and then mess with this weird phase 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.280 and it kind of makes the reverb sound like they're 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.760 behind the speaker or makes the audio sound like it's 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:15.639 coming from elsewhere in the room and it's just a 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.240 phase trick between the two speakers. So like he would 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.080 just kind of throw ideas at me, and I would 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.840 what's the name of that product us the name of 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.760 the company, and it's an S R S. Let's see. Yeah, 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.600 just ther s r S a K. Sound Retrieval System 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.000 is what it's called. And it's just sitting right here 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:36.600 up here, and but you know, and he would just 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:38.760 always throw throw me a bone. And then and then 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:40.479 once I got to a place where I was like 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.919 discovering some gear, I would be like so excited and 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:45.800 proud to like be like, Dave, have you checked out 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.440 this thing? And He's like no, And I'm like, let 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.080 me tell you all about it, you know what I mean, 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.600 because it was it was made me feel like I 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.879 had learned something, you know. But but really like like 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:59.040 he's one of those kind of dudes who who shares 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.879 the knowledge is excited to to turn people other people 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.800 onto cool stuff, you know. So but he turned me 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.040 into a gearhead. And now I've bought so much crap. 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.480 And like I didn't used to like go on the 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.600 reverb and sell things and then use that money and 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.359 buy more things and do all this. You know, I 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.040 just didn't have the patience for it. But now I've 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:21.080 become addicted to it. And it's all his fault. Okay, 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.080 so you're in l A, yes, sir, been here's something 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.920 not the street of just but generally generally uh, kind 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:32.760 of near the Hollywood Bowl that's okay, on the valley side, 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.120 or the Hollywood right on the valley side, like where 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.560 the Barn bridges. I'm near there, okay. And you have 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:40.560 a studio in your house that you're in right now. 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:45.080 I do, I do, Okay, So how extensive is your studio? 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.400 We can you cut in your studio or everything? I can? 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.080 I've never cut drums, and yet my wife and I 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.679 bought this house last year, so we we haven't gotten 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:55.640 to where I've cut on an entire session in here, 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.439 but I've I've I can do them. I can do 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:02.280 anything in here. I've cut um, of course, like vocals. 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.080 I've cut full tracks that are programmed. I've got a 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.720 piano that's all wired up, and I've cut piano tracks. 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:09.680 You know. I've mixed. I can mix in here. I 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:11.920 mixed one of the songs on Brandy's new record in 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.040 this room. And I've got a big, nice wall of 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.480 outboard gear right here in this little studio desk with 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:19.720 a lot of all the gear that I need. Like 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:21.800 I wouldn't say I could rent this out to someone 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.520 and that they would enjoy it, but for me, it's 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.679 like perfect for me, it's just set up kind of 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:31.400 what kind of board, No board, It's all pro tools 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:33.760 I have. I know, I have like a lot of 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.679 pre amps, and I have a lot of like outboard 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.760 gear that I run things through. I have, like I said, 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.159 I had that one channel from that board that was 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.840 at the Electro Asylum. So when it like when I 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.440 mixed the song was called Center Sanson Fools off Brandy's album. 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.320 But when I mixed that, I ran every single track 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.440 through that one channel, so that kind of emulated as 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.880 if I was using that same board from the war 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.760 van was cut on, you know, But like I just 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:04.600 had to do it one by one. I basically recorded 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:08.240 into pro Tools and then dump it through this thing, 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:10.359 each channel through that thing, and it comes back and 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:14.080 it sounds like sounds like an old console. But I 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.040 have no physical console in here. I'd like to get 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.040 one eventually, but I do so much in pro Tools, 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.120 and and I've always been able to do that no problem. 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.480 I have like a little automated desk that controls pro Tools, 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.840 but no physical poork. Okay, where are you on on 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:34.600 the analog digital debate. I'm I've done plenty of records 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:39.560 all analog, while I enjoy it, I you know, the 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.800 pro tools digital to me has come so far the 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:47.560 audio quality, it's really hard to differentiate it. Of course, 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:51.040 there's like tape sound and things, but I prefer to 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.439 work on the computer. Again, I'm the computer nerd at 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:56.920 heart anyway, and I love all the things you can 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.040 do with the computer, so I I kind of look 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:03.520 at it like a never ending exploration machine, you know. 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:09.760 So So why did Dave Dave not mix the Joke? Well, 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:13.320 he did originally, and I loved his mix, but he 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:17.879 felt he wanted Tom Elmhurst to take a shot at it, 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:22.159 who did most of the new record, Who's a great mixer. Um, 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:24.080 it's funny. I think Dave makes two songs on the 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.560 new record. I mixed one and Tom mix the rest. 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.960 But on the original, like I said, I love Dave's mix, 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.080 but he and Brandy eventually said no, we want to 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.639 We want somebody else to mix the single, and I 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:38.800 think Tom did a great job with that. But I'm 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.520 a fan of Dave's mixes. That So, what's the difference 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:46.320 between Dave's mixed on the Joke and the ultimate release version? 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:50.840 Not a ton But there's like Dave's mixes sound like 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.679 they're they're like nine, you know, with with a modern 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:58.440 low end, like they really sound like classic. And Tom's 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:01.399 while it was recorded using a lot of classic gears. 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.880 So so Tom's is similar, but you know, he's he's 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.239 a professional mixer, so he's mixing everything like from I mean, 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:11.280 I don't want to I'm not ripping on Tom's mixed 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.000 by any means, there's just a different You can hear 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:19.520 Dave's touch in a mix in my opinion, and it's 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:25.040 it's kind of like instant, instantaneously identifiable, instantly, I should 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:28.720 say identifiable to me. So like Tom, like you know, 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.880 he brought up the high hat, like put some verb 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:32.800 on the high hat and away and it and some 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:35.880 of the high end on the drums kind of popped 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:38.800 more than than Dave's would days. Is again more classic, 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.000 you know, and kind of like like an old record 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:42.720 that even though we didn't cut it to tape, like 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:45.600 his mixes kind of sound like like their tape, you know. 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.040 And so there were just some some kind of EQ 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:53.399 differences and and and Tom's really good with Brandy's voice. 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:54.960 That was the first time he had mixed it, and 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:58.119 Brandy really flipped out, like he he whatever his chain is, 0:22:58.160 --> 0:22:59.960 which I'm not aware of what it is he uses, 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.560 but whatever he uses on her voice, it really brings 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:05.320 it out front and center. And I think I think 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.120 that was part of the decision at least on Brandy's 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:10.960 part with that mix, was like how front and center 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:22.080 her voice was on it. But I liked them both. Okay, 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:24.480 so let's assume I want to make a record with you, 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:31.560 and I'm not an artist. But what's the approach I use? Wait, 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:33.399 if you're if you want to make it, what do 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:34.399 you mean by that? If you want to make a 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:36.399 record with me but you're not an artist? No, I 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:40.240 mean me personally, I'm using a hypothetic. Okay, Well, I 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:43.480 mean when I look when somebody comes to me and 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.320 wants to make a record, if somebody asked me to 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.560 make record, Like sometimes i'm introduced to people. Sometimes it's 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:52.359 kind of like it. It depends on the situation of 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.840 how we end up getting in the room. But like 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:59.320 I'll give you an example with like Duff mccagan. I 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.560 was I had known Duff a long time, but I 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.119 was not in his He was not aware that I 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:07.840 was producing records like We've known each other from my 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:10.919 old band and and been like fifteen years, but we 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:12.719 hadn't like hung out. We didn't like hang out all 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:16.760 the time. And Um Greg Nadel, who were who runs Electra, 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:21.000 we were. I was actually at Colbert same day that 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:23.639 I told Brandy about the Tanner record and she freaked 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:24.919 out and I was like, come do it with me. 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:27.320 That same day, Greg Nadel was like, hey, he pulled 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:30.800 me aside. He said, Deaf mccagan is doing a new record, 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.080 and what's a producer would you be interested in? He's 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:35.320 like it's kind of like a Stones type thing, and 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:37.359 I was like, of course I would love to because 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:41.520 I loved I loved um his stuff like camp can't 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:43.679 put my arms around a memory when he covered the 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:47.160 Johnny Thunders on the Guns and Roses Spaghetti Incident record 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:51.399 and stuff like. I liked his style. And so when 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:53.600 we met, he came over. He came over my house 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:55.880 and this is not this house. It was the last 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:57.800 house we had, which was much smaller. In my studio 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:00.879 is basically a closet. But I had this little electronic 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:03.560 piano and he had all these pieces of songs. So 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:07.520 we sat down and probably spent about a week total 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:11.119 going through all this material, and and one thing that 0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:13.920 I feel like I'm good at is kind of completing 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:17.359 musical arrangements. So some somebody has like a part of 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:20.399 a song. Like he had pieces of songs choruses and 0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:25.439 verses and melodies with not even completed lyrics, you know. 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:30.040 And so we would sit down and I would he 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:32.720 would play me like on his guitar. He had a guitar, 0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:35.800 and I was sitting at the piano, and he would play, uh, 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:37.639 this piece of a song like converse the chorus, and 0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:40.240 I'd be like, Okay, what if we like do this 0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:42.880 as a connector between the chorus and the next verse, 0:25:42.960 --> 0:25:45.199 and maybe this is a bridge or whatever. And we 0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:47.040 would kind of like mess with them until we had 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:51.199 these kind of you know, arrangements. Basically they weren't he 0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:54.119 wasn't even done with the lyrics, but there were complete arrangements, 0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:56.919 you know. And so we worked through all that, and 0:25:56.960 --> 0:25:59.600 then once that happened, he let me put together the band. 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:02.000 And I have a band that I love working with 0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:04.479 here that I've worked with for many years. If if 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.000 I get the option to pick the band for them, 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:10.160 I always picked these guys and we kind of got 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.280 in and did the whole thing on the spot, you know. 0:26:13.359 --> 0:26:15.800 So that so that's one way of working. Like when 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:19.040 I when I did Manson's record, he he had nothing, 0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:21.400 so we made it all up. I made up all 0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:24.520 the music myself with him, and he wrote all the 0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:27.160 lyrics and we we just kind of constructed of nowhere, 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:31.560 like with with Tanya with Brandy, you know, with that project, 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:33.879 it was kind of different because with that we me 0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:37.320 and Brandy were picking material for her and writing material 0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:39.639 and then once we got in, like she she was 0:26:39.680 --> 0:26:41.080 so hard to even get her to listen to any 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:43.040 of the materials. She didn't like it, she didn't want 0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:45.520 to do it, she didn't think she thought we were crazy. 0:26:46.119 --> 0:26:48.240 And we convinced her to get to l A to 0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:50.840 Sunset Sound, and once we got there, it just kind 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:52.600 of was like on the fly. You know. So every 0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:55.920 every time when somebody does the record, it's it's different, 0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:58.800 you know, And that's kind of what I feel a 0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:01.639 producer's job is anyways, like is to kind of be 0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:06.359 this malleable um, have a have a malleable role because 0:27:06.400 --> 0:27:09.840 sometimes you the artist in the band, have all the 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:12.679 songs figured out and it's really about just facilitating it 0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:16.240 or or setting you know, getting good sounds or whatever. 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:19.560 But then sometimes you have an artist, like right after 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:25.080 Duff um So, Duff's manager is best friends with Slashes manager, 0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:28.960 and Slashes manager manages White Buffalo. So after I got 0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:32.320 done with Duff and Duff was really happy, they suggested 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:36.200 suggested me to work with White Buffalo, and I met Jake. 0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:37.760 We went out and met at a bar and had 0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:40.240 had like a little date, a little blind date, and 0:27:40.320 --> 0:27:44.000 hung out and had some beers and and um went 0:27:44.119 --> 0:27:46.760 and we really hit it off, like instantly hit it off. 0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:49.159 And he didn't have really any material. He was just 0:27:49.240 --> 0:27:51.000 kind of like tinkering. But I think he was in 0:27:51.040 --> 0:27:54.359 a place where he didn't know what was next, and 0:27:54.520 --> 0:27:58.119 I think he like had his last producer had like left, 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:01.000 or I don't know what happened. Jake said, wonderful guy, 0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:03.919 so like I don't know what had happened. But he 0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:06.120 didn't have a producer or anything. And we sat down 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:08.119 and he was like, I was like, what material do 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:09.440 you have? He's like, oh, I don't really have anything. 0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:11.520 And then he started like listening in his voice notes 0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:13.560 and finding little pieces of songs that he had written 0:28:13.560 --> 0:28:15.560 over the years, and I was like, that's great, and 0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:17.320 then we kind of like duff, like I said, at 0:28:17.320 --> 0:28:19.520 the piano, and we worked him out and worked some 0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:21.400 arrangements and and the next thing, you know, we had 0:28:21.480 --> 0:28:23.840 we had a record and and it was there, you know. 0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:27.080 So it just kind of depends. Like this time around 0:28:27.119 --> 0:28:29.160 with Tanya, it's very different than it was last time 0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:31.359 with Tanya because this time I kind of had an 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:34.439 idea and wrote some songs as a vision for the record, 0:28:34.520 --> 0:28:36.720 and Brandy got on board with that, and and now 0:28:36.720 --> 0:28:39.680 we're going in January. And you know, last time, a 0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:41.800 guy in her band, Tim hands are Off, wrote a 0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:44.040 lot of the songs for the record. This time around, 0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:47.280 it's different. So Brandy's written some, I've written some. So 0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:49.360 it's just kind of like it always changes, you know. 0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:52.760 But but either way, I'm into, Like I love meeting people, 0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:57.640 I love doing records getting I really respect being taken 0:28:57.640 --> 0:29:00.280 into their process and into their bands and being a 0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:02.520 part of it. And I really want them to have 0:29:02.560 --> 0:29:04.160 a good time and I want them to be happy 0:29:04.240 --> 0:29:06.960 every day in the studio and be excited. I don't 0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:09.880 believe in roadblocks, and I don't believe in like they're 0:29:09.880 --> 0:29:12.360 being tension Like I know, I just I'm just not 0:29:12.440 --> 0:29:15.120 that type of person. So like to me, I want 0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:17.600 to get in there and have everybody be all smiles 0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:20.160 and I'm so excited from day one to the end, 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:23.520 you know, and no matter what it takes. Okay, So 0:29:23.640 --> 0:29:27.200 let's assume the people tend to come to you. Is 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:30.120 it serendipitous like with the Dell or do you have 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:34.080 a manager and where does money come in? Well? I 0:29:34.160 --> 0:29:37.160 have a manager who who after the guy I told 0:29:37.160 --> 0:29:39.840 you about, the Colonel John Hensley passed away, um that 0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:42.320 there was a there was a guy who we hung 0:29:42.320 --> 0:29:43.920 out with. It I had known since I was a 0:29:44.000 --> 0:29:46.880 kid whose grandfather played bass for my dad. And his 0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:49.600 name is Adam Bridges and he's ten years younger than me. 0:29:49.920 --> 0:29:51.880 And after John died, I was like, you know what 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:56.000 I did? You know, I can't remember what it's called. 0:29:56.400 --> 0:29:58.760 And I sound like an idiot. I'm speaking out of turn. 0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:01.720 But but like in the Jewish family, when someone dies, 0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:06.240 they take thirty days to like two mourn and figure out, 0:30:06.440 --> 0:30:09.320 you know, what's next. And so I said, I'm going 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:11.280 to do that. After he died, and I took thirty 0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:12.880 days because I was like, I don't want to hire 0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:15.480 another manager. I don't know what to do, and and 0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:16.920 it just kind of came to me and I was 0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:19.360 like Adam was not even a manager at the time, 0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:21.200 but I was like, come, come manage me, you know, 0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:24.720 and he started. Now he's like started a whole management company, 0:30:24.720 --> 0:30:26.960 managed tons of people, and it's like he's doing so great. 0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:30.040 But but um, so he's my manager, he's my partner. 0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:33.040 He also runs our label that we have BCR together. 0:30:33.240 --> 0:30:37.200 But he so he he's the key to a lot 0:30:37.240 --> 0:30:40.080 because he is my schedule keeper because I'm I'm so 0:30:40.120 --> 0:30:43.080 all over the place, like between records and devoting I 0:30:43.160 --> 0:30:45.760 devote a lot of time to my children and everything. 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:49.680 Like he kind of schedules and budgets and puts all 0:30:49.720 --> 0:30:51.760 that together so that I don't have to worry about it. 0:30:51.840 --> 0:30:54.880 And and it also has a flow with the engineers 0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:58.680 and studios I work with and everything. But um you know, 0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:03.720 usually the artists either I come to them or they 0:31:03.760 --> 0:31:06.040 come to me, like tany I came to them, like 0:31:06.120 --> 0:31:11.920 Brandy uh duff. You know, let's I mean, there's I'm 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:15.120 trying to think it kind of is different sometimes I'm 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:17.160 set up on the date, like with the White Buffalo, 0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:20.720 but that worked really great. Sometimes like my my booking agent, 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:24.600 John Folk and introduced me to American Aquarium and that 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:28.040 record happened that way. Jason Boland, the master Sins were 0:31:28.040 --> 0:31:30.560 old friends. They asked me to do it. Um you know, 0:31:31.000 --> 0:31:34.200 was more than happy to do it. So it usually 0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:37.320 comes through people I know and that channel. But then 0:31:37.320 --> 0:31:41.400 I then I I joined Concord as a staff producer 0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:46.480 and a and R under Tom Wally, and so in 0:31:46.520 --> 0:31:49.560 that I do three records. I can still do outside records, 0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:53.719 but I do three records with them a year. And 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:57.040 so in that they that which I love the company 0:31:57.080 --> 0:32:00.240 and I love the network. I love Fantasy I. I 0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:03.640 had worked with them with Tanya Um you know, Margie 0:32:03.640 --> 0:32:06.680 over there and a bunch of great people at all 0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:09.440 the different labels, John Strom at Rounders. So I've gotten 0:32:09.480 --> 0:32:12.200 to know them and be kind of in the system there, 0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:14.760 which has been really interesting and wonderful experience and worked 0:32:14.880 --> 0:32:18.440 really closely Bryan Wally um on loan of this to stuff. 0:32:18.480 --> 0:32:21.400 So they all set me up for meetings with different 0:32:21.480 --> 0:32:24.480 artists like Avi Kaplan was a good one and who 0:32:24.840 --> 0:32:27.480 uh We did a whole record last last winter that 0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:30.160 turned out really great. And I've had some meetings with 0:32:30.240 --> 0:32:33.360 some artists there and you know, they didn't pick me. 0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:36.160 They went with other people or for whatever reasons. You know. 0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:38.280 It wasn't always wentn't like we didn't get along. It 0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:40.920 was just like whatever the situation was, it right. And 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:43.320 that's that's very different than what I'm used to, which 0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:45.840 is like people that I know kind of reaching out. 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:48.280 But I like this because it's a challenge and it 0:32:48.360 --> 0:32:52.160 and it kind of also it puts me in situations 0:32:52.240 --> 0:32:54.840 musically that I've never been in. And to me, I'm like, 0:32:55.120 --> 0:32:57.200 I want to learn all the time, i want to 0:32:57.200 --> 0:33:01.040 get better and I want to like ex arians different things, 0:33:01.040 --> 0:33:04.080 you know. So so in that sense, I'm really enjoying 0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:07.400 doing it that way. But it's different for me. Okay, 0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:09.520 But let's talk about budgets. Needle to say, you came 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:13.080 on board when the old system was in its last throws. 0:33:13.760 --> 0:33:15.480 So you know, you get a big budget, a couple 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:18.640 of hundred k from the label you're cutting a big studio. 0:33:19.200 --> 0:33:21.800 So what kind of budgets do you work with today 0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:26.440 and what's your deal? Well, I mean, my price is 0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:29.320 like it depends. It depends on how much time and 0:33:29.480 --> 0:33:31.600 it's gonna take. You know, if it's a short record, 0:33:31.680 --> 0:33:34.040 it's whatever. I mean, we we kind of work out 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:37.720 different prices. But but like with studios, you know, it's 0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:40.000 very different, Like you said, it's very different. I mean 0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:43.680 it's it's not Bust Rhymes spending like seven thousand dollars 0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:46.080 on a record in the studio, you know, or it's 0:33:46.120 --> 0:33:49.400 not like like you know, Paul Simon, Simon and Garfunkel, 0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:52.479 I think they mixed uh Bridge over Trouble Water for 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:56.080 six months, you know. So nowadays it's so different that 0:33:56.160 --> 0:33:59.600 you gotta kind of do it for quick and and 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:02.400 you know, under budget if you can. And so I 0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:06.520 when I when we do records, they usually are total 0:34:06.680 --> 0:34:11.640 encapsulated probably eighty two honor twenty dollars these day. That 0:34:11.640 --> 0:34:15.480 that's kind of usually what what they're working with, you know, 0:34:15.600 --> 0:34:19.000 And that's that's with a label behind them. Sometimes it's 0:34:19.160 --> 0:34:22.560 it's you know, we're doing it like hell Abound Glories 0:34:22.600 --> 0:34:25.480 on my label, and so we're paying for all of it. 0:34:25.800 --> 0:34:28.319 So we did their last record in two days. We 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:31.440 did five songs a day, two days nailed at this 0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:33.360 time we just got out. We did five days, and 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:35.880 I was really happy because I wanted they deserve the time, 0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:39.319 but it was like the budget didn't allow it last time. 0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:41.040 This time we've made a little bit, so we're able 0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:43.080 to do it. So it just it just kind of matters, 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:46.560 you know, that kind of what kind of record it is. 0:34:46.880 --> 0:34:49.359 But again, it's it's all guerrilla these days. It's all 0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:52.960 kind of stealth. But I love working. My favorite studio 0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:55.880 is Sunset Sound, which has just been around forever, and 0:34:55.920 --> 0:34:57.799 I love those guys over there. And if I can't 0:34:57.800 --> 0:35:00.400 do it there, there's a studio called Dave's Room that 0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:02.239 used to be a guy named Dave Bianco used to 0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:06.279 run you passed away who engineered like Wildflowers for Tom 0:35:06.320 --> 0:35:08.800 Petty and stuff. And his engineer who I've known a 0:35:08.880 --> 0:35:12.360 long time, David Spring, took over his studio. So I 0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:14.359 worked there a lot, and we can we can do 0:35:14.440 --> 0:35:17.399 it within a smaller budget if we do it there, 0:35:17.400 --> 0:35:20.279 because it's David's studio, so he's charging me, him and 0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:23.800 the studio in one fee. And if I'm picking the band, 0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:25.680 my guys will do it for a good price. A 0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:27.799 lot of the time, you know, in l A you're 0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.640 not bound to the restrictions of the union, which could 0:35:30.680 --> 0:35:32.440 could be viewed is a good or bad thing. But 0:35:32.520 --> 0:35:35.319 in some situations where a band really needs it and 0:35:35.400 --> 0:35:38.040 the union is like making everybody take a certain amount, 0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:40.880 it can make it really hard, like in Nashville to 0:35:40.920 --> 0:35:43.160 make a cheap record. But out here, if the band's 0:35:43.160 --> 0:35:45.440 into it and they like the music, they'll do it. 0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:47.560 And we can really kind of cut some stealth records 0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:50.800 very quickly and and everybody get taken care of and 0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:54.000 and be cool. So you know, it's like it all 0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:56.200 just kind of is. It moves, but it's a lot 0:35:56.200 --> 0:35:57.760 smaller than he used to be. But you can still 0:35:57.800 --> 0:36:01.760 make records. I think that our our fantastic and sound great. 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:04.520 And sometimes you spend a year on a record at 0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:07.120 home doing it, and sometimes you spend six days, but 0:36:07.520 --> 0:36:10.560 they can all be good. Okay, So you say such 0:36:10.600 --> 0:36:15.440 that sound is expensive? Uh, do you always cut in 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:19.120 sunset or Dave's room where sometimes you're just cutting in 0:36:19.160 --> 0:36:24.040 your house? It depends on the project. Like lately, I've 0:36:24.040 --> 0:36:27.239 been working with this guy DJ Paul who's was in 0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:30.279 three six Mafia, and he wanted to do kind of 0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:33.240 a rock record, So We've done that all at my house, 0:36:33.400 --> 0:36:35.920 and and the same went for that Manson record. We 0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:37.319 did that all at my house and then we went 0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:40.120 to a studio and cut live drums over a period 0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:42.920 a couple of days, and so doing doing albums at 0:36:42.960 --> 0:36:46.880 home it's a different process. It usually involves a lot 0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:50.280 of programming. Usually, like I don't, I'm not usually cutting 0:36:50.640 --> 0:36:53.600 because like I haven't really built any kind of baffles 0:36:53.680 --> 0:36:57.000 or soundproofing in here, which I'm fine with. Piano is fine, 0:36:57.040 --> 0:36:59.440 acoustic is fine, but if I want to set up 0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:01.879 big tar amps and stuff, I could do it here. 0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:04.040 But I prefer to do it all in a room 0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:06.879 where it's laid out because I usually, if if it's 0:37:06.920 --> 0:37:09.839 a live band album, I wanted to all be cut 0:37:09.880 --> 0:37:11.879 at the same time. I don't. I'm not. We don't 0:37:11.920 --> 0:37:14.439 usually do it piece by piece, instrument by instrument, which 0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:17.239 a lot of people do do, but I prefer to 0:37:17.320 --> 0:37:19.520 have it be all tracked at once, and in that case, 0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:22.160 I need the space. But if we're doing something like 0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:26.879 the DJ Paul project where we're programming a lot of it, um, 0:37:26.920 --> 0:37:28.319 I can do that and we can do it piece 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:29.880 by piece here and then we can take it to 0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:32.040 a studio and cut the live stuff that we need 0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:35.600 that way. But but most of the time, uh, most 0:37:35.680 --> 0:37:39.120 the types of records that I do require a live space, 0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:41.919 and and you know, Dave's room and since it sound, 0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:46.399 both have wonderful wood rooms in great drum rooms and 0:37:46.840 --> 0:37:49.840 isolation booths and pianos and things, so we're able to 0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:53.239 kind of get a really warm, rich sound out of them, 0:37:53.239 --> 0:37:58.040 you know. Okay, So the newest Randy record you're doing. 0:37:58.080 --> 0:38:02.080 The previous one, she hadn't had that level of success 0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:05.640 whatsoever in terms of recordings. It was earlier stuff with 0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:09.400 Tibo and Burnett that had the most commercial connection. So 0:38:09.480 --> 0:38:14.880 you do this record is unbelievably successful. Okay, now you 0:38:14.960 --> 0:38:18.880 have to do a follow up. There's so many questions involved, 0:38:18.960 --> 0:38:21.520 I mean, because now you have the pressure, now you 0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:26.240 have the notoriety. So walk me through in terms of 0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:29.440 how that affected the process, in terms of writing the 0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:33.719 material and the attitude in the wanting to find you know, 0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:39.520 the trucks that would resonate with listeners. Well, you know, 0:38:39.800 --> 0:38:44.840 the greatest thing about Brandy Carlyle is that she, like 0:38:45.040 --> 0:38:48.520 her and Phil and Tim hands Wrath, are a writing collective. 0:38:49.480 --> 0:38:53.560 And they did this for so long together, and they 0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:56.160 wrote so many songs, and they developed their craft and 0:38:56.239 --> 0:38:59.359 their arts so much that I think that they were 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:03.080 so far into their own process and it had been 0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:07.000 so far refined that I did when I heard the 0:39:07.000 --> 0:39:09.799 demos for this new album, it did not feel like 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:12.440 someone who had just gotten some success and we're trying 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:15.560 to replicate that success. It was a whole new batch 0:39:15.600 --> 0:39:19.759 of songs that was very much in there their wheelhouse. 0:39:20.280 --> 0:39:24.120 But it there was nothing that there that was like, oh, 0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:26.319 we got to do another joke, or oh we've got 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:29.319 to do something popular to keep up with this, or that. 0:39:29.560 --> 0:39:32.120 It felt very authentic and real. And the demos, like 0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:35.239 I remember the demos from the first record and what 0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:38.239 they sounded like, and it stayed very true to them 0:39:38.360 --> 0:39:41.040 um as far, and they were just like acoustic and 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:44.080 her and them singing, you know. With this one, like 0:39:44.120 --> 0:39:46.080 I remember I was, I was laying in bed with 0:39:46.120 --> 0:39:47.840 my wife, You're about to go to bed, and I 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:49.879 got all these texts from Brandy and it was like 0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:53.840 Broken Horses was in there, and Broken Horses had like 0:39:53.840 --> 0:39:56.200 a little bit different of a chorus, and there was 0:39:56.280 --> 0:40:00.520 some different elements that were changed and refined during the process, 0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:02.680 but pretty much they were. They were very true to 0:40:02.719 --> 0:40:04.359 the thing like you and me, and the rock was 0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:08.160 in there right on time, was in there, like there 0:40:08.239 --> 0:40:11.000 was these songs that were already kind of fully developed, 0:40:11.040 --> 0:40:13.760 but they were they were they felt like another step. 0:40:13.920 --> 0:40:15.800 It just didn't. It didn't feel like they were turning 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:17.880 around and looking back at what they've done and trying 0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:20.279 to do something. It's like to them, they've been doing 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:23.719 this so long that they were almost unfazed by the 0:40:23.800 --> 0:40:26.640 pressure because they've already been through that, like doing that 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:29.960 first record and then kind of having all this success 0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:34.000 and and then kind of you know, continuing, but but 0:40:34.200 --> 0:40:36.239 it always kind of staying in that spot. And I'm 0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:38.480 not saying that critically, like I know that I know 0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:41.520 how hard it is like to kind of break through 0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:44.839 the levels, and especially when when Brandy like this has 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:48.000 a lot going against her going in there, like you know, 0:40:48.239 --> 0:40:51.440 she's a woman, she's gay, like she's outward about it, 0:40:51.480 --> 0:40:55.000 like she had resistance in different areas because of all 0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:58.120 of this, which she just shattered and broke because she 0:40:58.320 --> 0:41:01.080 doesn't care, and she's very true to her heart and 0:41:01.080 --> 0:41:04.400 and very true to who she is, and um, you know, 0:41:04.600 --> 0:41:07.520 so I think they were just continuing their exact same 0:41:07.600 --> 0:41:10.439 growth and process that they'd always done. And in that way, 0:41:10.480 --> 0:41:13.400 I don't think that there was a pressure if anything. Brandy, 0:41:13.719 --> 0:41:18.120 you know, the one thing she talked about was she said, uh, 0:41:18.640 --> 0:41:20.600 she doesn't mind me saying that, which I don't think 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:22.200 you will. But she was like, she really wanted to 0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:24.640 make sure this record had fallopian tubes, is what she 0:41:24.680 --> 0:41:26.640 said it was. And it was like kind of the 0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:31.879 way of saying, like the tender feminine moments. She knew 0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:33.839 there were some rockers that they had come up with 0:41:33.880 --> 0:41:36.800 like this Broken Horses and and Centers, Saints and Fools 0:41:36.840 --> 0:41:39.279 and these songs and even you and Me on the Rock, 0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:42.600 which is kind of jony ish, but it's like, but 0:41:42.760 --> 0:41:45.400 she had this throwing good after bad, Like when she 0:41:45.480 --> 0:41:47.320 sent me that song that was in that first batch, 0:41:47.400 --> 0:41:49.920 I like, that was my favorite song of the bunch 0:41:50.040 --> 0:41:51.759 at first, and I was like, oh my god, I 0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:54.080 love this song, you know, and she was like, that's 0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:57.319 what she meant by the floppian tubes like that, and um, 0:41:58.120 --> 0:42:01.160 let's see my letter to the paths Like those songs. 0:42:01.160 --> 0:42:06.720 She really wanted to have that that sensitive feminine energy 0:42:06.800 --> 0:42:09.799 be really present on this record, and not that it 0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:11.920 wasn't on the last one, but I think I think 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:14.040 she succeeded in that. And so she has a vision 0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:16.920 for where she wants to go. And like an artist 0:42:17.040 --> 0:42:20.799 like David Bowie or somebody, she's always evolving and she 0:42:20.880 --> 0:42:26.480 knows it and she's always um wanting to you know. 0:42:27.760 --> 0:42:30.279 It's like what, there's a there's saying that says like 0:42:31.560 --> 0:42:35.040 that an entrepreneur is someone that always thinks that their 0:42:35.120 --> 0:42:37.200 next thing is going to be the big one that hits. 0:42:37.760 --> 0:42:40.680 And in a way, it's not like she's thinking that commercially. 0:42:40.760 --> 0:42:43.279 I think she's just thinking like this one is the masterpiece. 0:42:43.320 --> 0:42:45.680 Like every time she cuts a record, she's like, this 0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:48.799 one is the one, you know, And like that translates, 0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:52.120 and that kind of confidence is on her part, and 0:42:52.160 --> 0:42:55.279 the Twins is very and there's it's confidence that is 0:42:55.320 --> 0:42:58.839 like draped in a in a humility because they know 0:42:58.880 --> 0:43:01.719 who they are and they don't put on airs that 0:43:01.760 --> 0:43:04.920 they're amazing. But like yet the minute they start playing 0:43:04.920 --> 0:43:07.040 their songs, you're just kind of I'm like, you know, 0:43:07.239 --> 0:43:09.480 blown away by it, and her voice blows me away. 0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:13.560 So it's like to them, the pressure was there, but 0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:15.880 it didn't really feel like it really more than anything, 0:43:15.960 --> 0:43:18.080 felt like we were just really excited to get back 0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:20.760 in together because here we had done this one record 0:43:20.840 --> 0:43:22.920 and had all this success, and we're like, let's do 0:43:22.960 --> 0:43:33.320 it again, Like this is really fun, you know. So okay. 0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:37.000 So in terms of making that record you co produced 0:43:37.000 --> 0:43:40.440 with Dave, what did Dave Cobb do? What did you do? 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:44.760 And you talk about like with other artists helping write 0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:48.120 the songs, to what degree were you involved in changing 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:52.920 the songs? Well, it's funny because between the two records 0:43:54.520 --> 0:43:57.520 it was it was a little different, but but it's 0:43:57.520 --> 0:44:01.719 still the same thing. Like Dave and I, like when 0:44:01.719 --> 0:44:04.839 Brandy first realized that we like really knew each other 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:06.760 and we got in the studio, she kind of described 0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:09.080 it like like two kids building a rocket ship in 0:44:09.080 --> 0:44:12.120 their basement, Like we are like that together. So with 0:44:12.239 --> 0:44:14.680 the first record, like Dave and I had talked a 0:44:14.680 --> 0:44:17.200 lot previously, and we had all these ideas which immediately 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:18.640 went out the window of the minute we got in 0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:22.120 there and heard the material and and I didn't know 0:44:22.200 --> 0:44:24.040 I was gonna play piano on the whole record. I 0:44:24.320 --> 0:44:26.240 didn't think I was gonna play anything on the record, 0:44:26.320 --> 0:44:29.160 and when the minute we got in there, Dave got 0:44:29.160 --> 0:44:31.239 on the acoustic and I was on the piano, and 0:44:31.239 --> 0:44:33.120 it kind of stayed that way for the whole record. 0:44:33.360 --> 0:44:36.399 And I remember at the time I wasn't as good 0:44:36.400 --> 0:44:39.000 as a piano player as I am now. I played, 0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:42.160 but I wasn't. I didn't play for other people, and 0:44:42.200 --> 0:44:44.359 there was a lot of songs and black keys, and 0:44:44.360 --> 0:44:47.160 I was so nervous because I didn't play very well 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:48.960 in black keys, but I didn't want to let on 0:44:49.400 --> 0:44:51.359 that I wasn't good at it, so I just kind 0:44:51.360 --> 0:44:53.919 of like toughed my way through it and did did 0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:58.480 the whole record. And so the second time around, well, 0:44:58.520 --> 0:45:00.640 I mean, first of all, so that that was the 0:45:00.640 --> 0:45:02.480 first thing in the first record, and then I started 0:45:02.560 --> 0:45:04.879 like it was like finding our place was interesting because 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:06.839 I was kind of like, where am I gonna Where 0:45:06.840 --> 0:45:09.719 am I gonna fit? Because I always I love Dave. 0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:12.640 Working with Dave, but he's always been my producer. We 0:45:12.680 --> 0:45:15.239 had never like co produced together, so I was never 0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:18.399 really sure going in like how it was gonna work like. 0:45:18.960 --> 0:45:21.880 But once we got in, I realized, like that there's 0:45:22.440 --> 0:45:28.040 there's very much a um like a it's hard to explain. 0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:33.120 It's like a it's like a chemistry with all of 0:45:33.200 --> 0:45:36.680 us as a group encouraging each other in certain ways. 0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:39.839 That part is almost more powerful than the actual production 0:45:39.920 --> 0:45:42.399 part of it. Like there's parts where like I mean, 0:45:42.440 --> 0:45:44.359 for me, I'm big into arrangement, so to be parts 0:45:44.400 --> 0:45:45.719 where would be like I'd be like, what if we 0:45:45.760 --> 0:45:47.560 cut this out? And what if we change this or 0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:50.160 we put this here instead of there, Like that kind 0:45:50.160 --> 0:45:53.759 of stuff I jump into a lot. Dave also does that. 0:45:53.880 --> 0:45:56.440 He's also more like when we sit down and go 0:45:56.520 --> 0:45:58.319 through the songs, Dave will be like, oh, what if 0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:01.040 we do discord instead of that chord? He does more 0:46:01.080 --> 0:46:04.160 of the chord like changing things because he's guitar minded, 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:06.080 so he would sit there on the on the guitar 0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:09.560 and do that, whereas like I uncertain things would do 0:46:09.600 --> 0:46:11.200 that with the piano. But most of the time I'm 0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:14.440 kind of accompanying. I'm not driving as much as as 0:46:14.440 --> 0:46:16.640 the guitar does. So there would be some like kind 0:46:16.640 --> 0:46:19.000 of changes like that. And then of course Dave and 0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:21.279 his knowledge of gear, I'm not going to get in 0:46:21.280 --> 0:46:23.120 the way of like that. You know, there'd be certain 0:46:23.160 --> 0:46:26.080 things keyboard wise, or synthesizer wise. I'd be let's get 0:46:26.080 --> 0:46:28.440 that in here, let's do that. But Dave is the 0:46:28.440 --> 0:46:30.680 guy when it comes to the equipment, and he's got 0:46:30.719 --> 0:46:33.440 all of it, so so you know, you know that 0:46:33.480 --> 0:46:35.120 he knows what he's doing there, so I stay out 0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:38.120 of the way there. Um. The second record was different. 0:46:38.320 --> 0:46:44.000 Second record had I felt I was more involved in 0:46:44.120 --> 0:46:47.759 certain aspects than I was before, like especially in like 0:46:49.120 --> 0:46:53.120 a mediation sense, because there was a lot of like 0:46:53.280 --> 0:46:56.320 there was just a lot of information flying around because 0:46:56.360 --> 0:46:59.480 it was it was during COVID. We're doing the record 0:46:59.560 --> 0:47:02.040 in the middle of the in the middle of our 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:04.360 c A instead of in a separate room like before 0:47:04.400 --> 0:47:06.680 it was in the control room and we're tracking in 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.160 the large room, but because of COVID, Dave decided to 0:47:09.160 --> 0:47:12.560 set the board up in the center of our ci 0:47:12.680 --> 0:47:15.479 A Studio A and we're all recorded in the same 0:47:15.560 --> 0:47:20.480 room with the board. So when that's happening, like where 0:47:20.480 --> 0:47:23.520 where I was physically in the room was between the 0:47:23.560 --> 0:47:26.399 board and the band, and then Dave is over here 0:47:26.960 --> 0:47:30.719 and Chris the drummer was in a booth. So there 0:47:30.800 --> 0:47:34.600 was I remember kind of feeling like where I was 0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:39.120 physically was allowed me to be kind of a conduit 0:47:39.160 --> 0:47:42.080 in communications person in this room more than I was 0:47:42.120 --> 0:47:44.120 in the last one, because in the last one, I 0:47:44.160 --> 0:47:45.799 was tucked off in this corner and I'd have to 0:47:45.800 --> 0:47:48.600 be listening and and chiming in, And this time I'm doing, 0:47:48.600 --> 0:47:52.480 oh he said this, you know or whatever, like relaying information. 0:47:52.840 --> 0:47:54.200 So there was a little bit of that, and then 0:47:54.200 --> 0:47:56.560 there was a little bit of like this time around, 0:47:56.800 --> 0:47:59.400 I was really confident on the piano, and I was 0:47:59.560 --> 0:48:04.160 very ashing it about some of the arrangements like uh, 0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:11.000 broken Horses and Center Saints and Fools, some of those 0:48:11.120 --> 0:48:13.600 kind of songs. Like especially I was like this is 0:48:14.000 --> 0:48:16.799 this felt like my wheelhouse, Like even though the other 0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:19.960 record did as well, the other record was pretty mellow 0:48:20.000 --> 0:48:23.080 besides some Sugartooth Like Sugartooth was like that was my 0:48:23.080 --> 0:48:28.200 wheelhouse on that one, uh you know fulsome County Jane Doe. Also, 0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:31.680 this time around, I felt I just felt really confident. 0:48:32.000 --> 0:48:35.000 I also, you know, the last record, I was kind 0:48:35.000 --> 0:48:37.759 of stepping in and was been being brought into the 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:39.640 situation that was a big deal, and it was kind 0:48:39.680 --> 0:48:41.680 of like my first big deal record, you know, not 0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:44.080 Dave's by any means, but it was kind of my, 0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:46.759 in my opinion, my first really big deal records. So 0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:50.080 this time around, I felt like really confident, really excited, 0:48:50.239 --> 0:48:51.680 and I felt like I could bring a lot more 0:48:51.719 --> 0:48:54.000 to the table than I could last time. Even though 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:57.200 I felt like I did do a lot. This time around, 0:48:57.200 --> 0:49:00.359 I felt very at the center of it with Dave, 0:49:00.600 --> 0:49:04.320 and I felt like, uh, also, there was a different 0:49:04.320 --> 0:49:06.920 communication with me and Dave. This time. Me and Dave 0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:10.840 were kind of I don't know, it's almost like like 0:49:11.040 --> 0:49:13.839 last time. And I mean this in like a great way, 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:18.160 but like last time, we were both still finding our 0:49:18.239 --> 0:49:21.040 voices out there. Like he he had really hit it 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:23.680 in Nashville, had all the success with with Chris, but 0:49:23.800 --> 0:49:26.480 his his thing was still starting to like really crank 0:49:26.600 --> 0:49:29.240 up and and again like I had kind of stepped 0:49:29.239 --> 0:49:31.600 into this new direction of my life. So this time around, 0:49:31.960 --> 0:49:34.399 we both have this like kind of different piece about us, 0:49:34.440 --> 0:49:36.680 I think, and and I think it allowed for us 0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:41.400 to to really be two sides of the the tesla 0:49:41.480 --> 0:49:45.480 coil for like them to um you know, or conduits 0:49:45.520 --> 0:49:47.719 for for them to do their things, So that there 0:49:47.760 --> 0:49:49.640 was definitely some of that. And it's really cool because 0:49:50.239 --> 0:49:52.480 Dave plays the acoustic and I played the piano right, 0:49:52.560 --> 0:49:55.480 so like when he's got his sound that's very seventies, 0:49:56.120 --> 0:49:58.120 like just just him playing the acoustics that way, and 0:49:58.160 --> 0:50:00.759 I've got my sound that's kind of like like I 0:50:00.840 --> 0:50:03.360 love Elton John So I'm always kind of aping that world, 0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:06.640 which is something Brandy you know, loves, and so so 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:09.480 we kind of got into a groove both records. It 0:50:09.560 --> 0:50:12.040 was so fun and we had never done before. We'd 0:50:12.080 --> 0:50:15.680 never jammed together, so me and Dave kind of being 0:50:15.680 --> 0:50:17.960 on either side of that was it was a really 0:50:18.000 --> 0:50:23.280 cool part of of the sound developing of these records, 0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:25.280 and I think it kind of made the records stand 0:50:25.280 --> 0:50:28.520 out from previous records because really we were holding down 0:50:28.560 --> 0:50:31.840 the fort on almost all the songs together and and 0:50:31.920 --> 0:50:34.440 that part was really fun. But like this time around, 0:50:34.440 --> 0:50:37.160 and also this time around when it got to the end, 0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:39.239 like me and Dave were both mixing songs, you know, 0:50:39.360 --> 0:50:41.440 and and Tom mixed most of the record with but 0:50:41.600 --> 0:50:44.799 there was one song Brandy didn't feel like that we 0:50:44.800 --> 0:50:46.680 were getting the right mix, and I said, let me 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:47.960 take a shot at it, and I did it, and 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:50.279 she loved it and ended up on the record. And 0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:52.480 there was there was another one Dave like the same thing. 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:55.040 Dave like didn't mix the whole record this time, but 0:50:55.080 --> 0:50:57.480 there was two songs on the record of Dave mix 0:50:57.920 --> 0:51:00.200 and you could tell because it's like Dave stuff like 0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:03.480 stay gentle and this time tomorrow. He's just great at 0:51:03.480 --> 0:51:07.359 that acoustic like can't find my way home sound like 0:51:07.400 --> 0:51:09.560 that's where he's a master at it, you know. And 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:11.960 and so it was really cool, was it? Really? It 0:51:12.040 --> 0:51:15.120 was kind of a different experience, but it felt really 0:51:15.200 --> 0:51:18.040 fulfilling because it felt like we really busted our asses 0:51:18.040 --> 0:51:21.360 on this one together, you know. Okay, you talk about 0:51:21.400 --> 0:51:25.759 working with all these different artists, sometimes writing stuff, sometimes arranging. 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:28.239 You know, in today's rule where there's so much money 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:32.680 and publishing, what happens with the songwriter credits? Well, I 0:51:32.719 --> 0:51:36.960 don't you know, Duff offered me songwriter for all the 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:40.359 songs that I helped create. But I don't take it. 0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:42.319 I I don't. I mean, I'm just not that type 0:51:42.320 --> 0:51:44.160 of person. I think it's my job to do that. 0:51:44.600 --> 0:51:47.680 Like if I went in the studio with some songs 0:51:48.239 --> 0:51:52.400 and somebody changed my stuff and then ask for songwriter credit, 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:55.080 like it could be one thing if they like really 0:51:55.160 --> 0:51:57.560 changed it, and and I was like, you deserve Like 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:01.480 I gave Dave credit on songs in the past, like 0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:05.280 for sure, like and I've given you know, there's songs 0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:07.640 that were created on the spot, and you know I 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:10.359 give it out. But like, I think it's the producer's job. 0:52:10.400 --> 0:52:13.520 And I think Dave feels this way to like arrangement 0:52:14.040 --> 0:52:17.080 means sometimes you're gonna change stuff, or you're gonna tell 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:20.920 the artists change from You're gonna give suggestions, and unless 0:52:20.960 --> 0:52:25.320 it's like crazy, you know, obviously like this person wrote 0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:27.960 this song, I think it's our job. I don't think 0:52:28.000 --> 0:52:30.439 we should be asking them. And I said Noted Duff, 0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:32.719 and I don't. I don't want to even get into 0:52:32.760 --> 0:52:35.960 that because again, it's my job. I'm being paid for that. 0:52:36.120 --> 0:52:37.840 I'm also getting a cut of the record, you know, 0:52:37.880 --> 0:52:40.120 I'm getting a whether it be three points or whatever, 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:43.279 four points on a record that is already part of 0:52:43.320 --> 0:52:47.120 their career. I don't. I don't. I don't personally feel 0:52:47.120 --> 0:52:50.120 like I should be aping their publishing because I made 0:52:50.120 --> 0:52:53.839 some suggestions. And it also opens a whole other conversation 0:52:53.920 --> 0:52:56.800 because then if I'm going to do that as an artist, 0:52:56.840 --> 0:53:00.520 I would probably not want the producer to get involved 0:53:00.520 --> 0:53:02.080 if I know they're going to try and chop take 0:53:02.120 --> 0:53:04.360 my publishing and all this stuff you know you're publishing 0:53:04.440 --> 0:53:07.239 is like your kids stuff when when you die, you know. 0:53:07.320 --> 0:53:10.320 So it's like, I just I don't I don't agree 0:53:10.320 --> 0:53:13.319 with with producers who do that or even you know 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:15.719 a lot of time musicians who feel like, oh, I 0:53:16.040 --> 0:53:18.000 wrote that baseline, I need to have a little cut 0:53:17.960 --> 0:53:20.200 in there, And you're like, I don't know, man, I 0:53:20.200 --> 0:53:22.239 don't know. I could just change that baseline and to 0:53:22.400 --> 0:53:26.040 be mine again, you know what I mean. Okay, So 0:53:26.120 --> 0:53:31.479 growing up, when did you realize who your parents were? Man, 0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:34.640 that's funny. That's funny because I was, you know, I 0:53:34.719 --> 0:53:36.759 was on the road as a baby, so like like 0:53:36.840 --> 0:53:40.120 we I would be sleeping on the bus in the 0:53:40.160 --> 0:53:46.200 back with my mom or like on airplanes and I 0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:49.440 and I traveled with until I started school, so like 0:53:50.520 --> 0:53:52.960 it was normal. There was this was just normal. And 0:53:52.960 --> 0:53:56.200 I was around other people like Willie Nelson's family or 0:53:56.239 --> 0:53:59.200 the Cashes and Christofferson's like their kids are out on 0:53:59.239 --> 0:54:00.839 the road and we would out in the roads. You're 0:54:00.920 --> 0:54:03.680 kind of like it's kind of like people who grew 0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:06.520 up in a completely different culture, and it's totally normal 0:54:06.520 --> 0:54:09.160 to them, you know, but everybody else is like like wow, 0:54:09.200 --> 0:54:11.279 like you grew up in tree houses, you know that 0:54:11.400 --> 0:54:14.000 kind of thing. It's like for us, it was normal. 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:17.799 So it wasn't until you get in school around other 0:54:17.800 --> 0:54:20.600 people who don't live that and you go, oh, I'm different. 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:25.040 You know, this is different. And I remember my dad 0:54:25.120 --> 0:54:26.759 used to tell the story, but it's so true because 0:54:26.760 --> 0:54:28.360 I remember I went over to this kid's house. His 0:54:28.440 --> 0:54:31.680 name was Cliff, and I was probably in second grade, 0:54:32.600 --> 0:54:36.160 and Cliff's dad was was a doctor. And so when 0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:38.359 my dad, my dad came over to pick me up 0:54:38.480 --> 0:54:42.000 from this play date, and Cliff goes, oh, hi, Dr Jennings, right, 0:54:42.040 --> 0:54:45.680 because he thought everybody's dad was doctor something. And it 0:54:45.760 --> 0:54:48.080 was kind of that effect, you know. I And it 0:54:48.160 --> 0:54:51.680 was weird because like I remember, as a kid, like 0:54:51.760 --> 0:54:54.279 before I was born, my dad used to party, right, 0:54:54.480 --> 0:54:57.560 and I was unaware of this. It never affected me 0:54:57.680 --> 0:55:00.520 as a child. I never saw him. You know, he 0:55:00.560 --> 0:55:02.680 did cocaine and stuff before they did pills whatever it 0:55:02.680 --> 0:55:05.080 was what they all did or whatever, But like he 0:55:05.160 --> 0:55:07.439 was never a drinker ever, So like I never saw 0:55:07.520 --> 0:55:10.239 any of this, but when I got in school, he 0:55:10.320 --> 0:55:14.240 was concerned that I would hear this because other parents 0:55:14.280 --> 0:55:16.759 knew and he had at one point gotten busted for 0:55:16.800 --> 0:55:19.000 this whole thing with drugs at one time and didn't 0:55:19.000 --> 0:55:21.440 go to jail or anything, but it was like a 0:55:21.440 --> 0:55:25.040 whole thing and uh, and so he was really worried 0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:27.560 I'd find out that kind of stuff in school, and 0:55:27.840 --> 0:55:30.799 you know, I understand, but you know, I think he 0:55:30.840 --> 0:55:33.600 thought I was gonna be disappointed in him or be 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:36.680 embarrassed by him or something. And I never found out 0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:39.560 it that way. In fact, he tried to tell me 0:55:39.719 --> 0:55:42.600 many times, and I remember clearly one time him saying, 0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:45.479 you know, a long time ago, and then he said, 0:55:45.520 --> 0:55:47.719 I used to cuss a lot because he couldn't bring 0:55:47.800 --> 0:55:52.560 himself to say it. And I think, um, eventually my 0:55:52.600 --> 0:55:54.719 mom or somebody told me, and I was kind of like, 0:55:55.320 --> 0:55:58.000 so like, I didn't, you know, it didn't even really 0:55:58.080 --> 0:56:02.279 rattle me, but he, um, you know. So there was 0:56:02.320 --> 0:56:04.080 a lot of like weird. I don't know why I 0:56:04.080 --> 0:56:05.680 brought that up, but there's a lot of weird elements 0:56:05.680 --> 0:56:09.200 growing up with all of this, but they seemed very normal, 0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:12.280 and I don't think I think maybe I realized that 0:56:12.280 --> 0:56:15.080 that that he was a big deal and that like 0:56:16.600 --> 0:56:20.200 what it all was once Like other parents like we're 0:56:20.239 --> 0:56:23.040 like kind of that's Waal and Jennings or like this, 0:56:23.200 --> 0:56:26.359 but you know, it just kind of was how it was. 0:56:26.440 --> 0:56:28.120 And I remember I would go to the mall with 0:56:28.160 --> 0:56:30.799 my dad and I would tell him like just put 0:56:30.800 --> 0:56:32.560 on a hat and tell him you're his cousin or something, 0:56:32.560 --> 0:56:34.479 because I would be like get annoyed that people would 0:56:34.480 --> 0:56:37.200 bother him for autographs and stuff, you know, and when 0:56:37.200 --> 0:56:39.240 he would go out, like I don't know, it was weird. 0:56:39.719 --> 0:56:41.720 It was just a weird thing. It's hard to explain 0:56:41.760 --> 0:56:45.000 when you're when you grow up in it. And like again, 0:56:45.120 --> 0:56:49.280 my dad was like very present and very very kind 0:56:49.480 --> 0:56:52.680 and very like a big kid. So I never had 0:56:52.719 --> 0:56:55.920 any like misgivings about it, you know, I he just 0:56:56.080 --> 0:57:00.120 he just was always just a kind guy to me, 0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:02.479 a kind dad. I mean, he didn't have his grumpy days, 0:57:03.160 --> 0:57:06.279 but just like any anybody you know, but but he 0:57:06.320 --> 0:57:08.920 was he was a wonderful, wonderful guy. So he always 0:57:08.920 --> 0:57:11.120 made me feel very comfortable. So it all made sense. 0:57:11.160 --> 0:57:13.400 And so what kind of kid were you? In school? 0:57:13.400 --> 0:57:17.400 Remember the group outsider, A good student, bad student. I 0:57:17.440 --> 0:57:20.360 was not very popular because I was. I was. I 0:57:20.440 --> 0:57:22.560 was a good student. I mean it wasn't like straight 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:26.440 a's or anything like I I struggled with math at 0:57:26.440 --> 0:57:29.320 certain times, and like, you know whatever, like any other kid, 0:57:29.640 --> 0:57:33.280 I guess, I was. I was just kind of a loaner. 0:57:33.360 --> 0:57:35.439 I had friends. I was. I was a nerdy kid, 0:57:35.560 --> 0:57:37.440 like I had got a computer at a very young 0:57:37.520 --> 0:57:41.920 age and was really into computers and like early video 0:57:42.040 --> 0:57:45.720 games and things like that. And and I had made 0:57:45.800 --> 0:57:48.400 friends that were like that. And I went to like 0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:51.600 I went to an elementary school that I really liked 0:57:51.600 --> 0:57:55.360 in Nashville, and I had my best friends were triplets. 0:57:55.360 --> 0:57:57.600 There was a set of triplets named the Sanders who 0:57:57.600 --> 0:57:59.840 I'm still friends with this day, that were my best friends. 0:58:00.040 --> 0:58:02.640 And there was another kid named Jonathan Body who went 0:58:02.640 --> 0:58:06.520 on to start my first band with me, and another 0:58:06.560 --> 0:58:09.120 kid named Matt Reeser who was also in my first band. 0:58:09.680 --> 0:58:13.000 And then um. I went to another school called m 0:58:13.080 --> 0:58:15.960 b A in Nashville that was like an all boys 0:58:16.080 --> 0:58:19.040 like private school, and I hated it. I was really not. 0:58:19.200 --> 0:58:21.160 I didn't I didn't get along with anybody there. It 0:58:21.240 --> 0:58:24.240 was a lot of preppy kind of job kids. That 0:58:24.320 --> 0:58:26.400 friend Matt Resur, went there, but he was the only 0:58:26.440 --> 0:58:28.560 friend I had, and I was really miserable there. And 0:58:28.600 --> 0:58:31.160 then I went to a kind of liberal arts school 0:58:31.720 --> 0:58:34.320 called University School of Nashville for the last two years, 0:58:34.360 --> 0:58:36.280 and I loved it, and I may and and my 0:58:36.320 --> 0:58:38.880 friend Jonathan Bodie he had gone there, so I was like, 0:58:38.920 --> 0:58:40.360 I want to go where he went. And I went 0:58:40.400 --> 0:58:44.760 there and and loved it, and and I really I 0:58:44.840 --> 0:58:46.919 made a lot of friends, and I had a lot 0:58:46.920 --> 0:58:49.720 of music loving friends. And again, you know, I was 0:58:49.760 --> 0:58:53.160 in the nine inch nails and ministry and found like 0:58:53.280 --> 0:58:55.360 minded people that were into the same kind of stuff. 0:58:55.360 --> 0:58:57.160 And there was like a record and you could walk around. 0:58:57.280 --> 0:58:59.680 It was kind of downtown Nashville. Ish was in like 0:58:59.720 --> 0:59:03.720 the Underbuld area, and you could walk around off campus 0:59:03.800 --> 0:59:06.440 and go eat for lunch. And my dad's office was 0:59:06.480 --> 0:59:09.920 like two blocks away, so I would like drive or 0:59:10.080 --> 0:59:13.160 walk down to where his office was and hang out 0:59:13.160 --> 0:59:15.360 with Nicki Mitchell, who was he ran his office and 0:59:15.480 --> 0:59:18.880 was his manager for a long time. And I would 0:59:18.880 --> 0:59:20.080 go down there and hang out with them. You know, 0:59:20.120 --> 0:59:22.000 I just had it. Just my life changed. I was 0:59:22.040 --> 0:59:24.920 like happy, and I was really falling in love with music, 0:59:25.040 --> 0:59:28.320 and I loved my teachers, and like, in fact, like 0:59:28.440 --> 0:59:31.720 next next Wednesday, we're released. I'm releasing some material I 0:59:31.720 --> 0:59:33.360 recorded a couple of years ago I never put out, 0:59:33.400 --> 0:59:35.919 And one of them is for this art teacher Jeane 0:59:35.960 --> 0:59:38.040 size More who passed away. He was who was an 0:59:38.200 --> 0:59:40.320 art teacher there, who I hung out with many years after. 0:59:40.400 --> 0:59:43.160 I go over and smoke cigarettes with and stuff and 0:59:43.320 --> 0:59:46.120 listen to the blues and anyway, like like you know, 0:59:46.200 --> 0:59:48.880 I just really fell in love with life in those 0:59:48.960 --> 0:59:50.920 last two years. And I think I was a better student. 0:59:50.920 --> 0:59:53.920 I started paying attention more because it wasn't like these 0:59:53.960 --> 0:59:56.000 teachers that were kind of like you gotta learn this, 0:59:56.120 --> 0:59:58.160 you gotta do this. It was like these teachers I had, 0:59:58.160 --> 1:00:00.160 Like I had this English teacher named Elizabeth cobe All 1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:03.400 who like turned me on too, like turned us onto 1:00:03.720 --> 1:00:07.200 Joseph Campbell and showed us Barton Fink and the Coen 1:00:07.240 --> 1:00:09.880 Brothers like stuff in school, and like I was like, wow, 1:00:09.920 --> 1:00:13.200 like I love this. I love literature. Like before that 1:00:13.280 --> 1:00:15.000 it was all work, you know, and and so it 1:00:15.160 --> 1:00:17.840 just kind of it mattered. And that was the that 1:00:17.960 --> 1:00:20.040 was the spot where I think I really enjoyed school 1:00:20.360 --> 1:00:22.880 was his last two years. You know what about going 1:00:22.920 --> 1:00:25.280 to college. I didn't go. I didn't want to go. 1:00:25.440 --> 1:00:27.800 I was like, I wanted to be in music. There's 1:00:27.800 --> 1:00:29.320 certain things I regret about it. And I tell my 1:00:29.440 --> 1:00:32.160 daughter this, because my daughter is fourteen and she's into music. 1:00:32.240 --> 1:00:34.720 She's done the exact same thing. She's so into it, 1:00:34.720 --> 1:00:37.760 plays piano, and she's like, why do I need to 1:00:37.760 --> 1:00:39.800 go to college? And I'm like, you know, I had 1:00:39.840 --> 1:00:42.600 the same thing. I took a year off. I was like, 1:00:42.640 --> 1:00:44.600 can I take a year off? I want to work 1:00:44.600 --> 1:00:46.200 on music a little bit. And my dad was like, yeah, 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:47.520 you can take a year off. And I was looking 1:00:47.520 --> 1:00:50.280 at like I got accepted to Berkeley and I was 1:00:50.320 --> 1:00:54.040 looking at full sale and I was like, um, you know, 1:00:54.320 --> 1:00:56.240 music stuff. And I was like, I wanted to a 1:00:56.320 --> 1:00:58.200 year off. And then and then after the first year, 1:00:58.240 --> 1:01:00.880 I was like, and I just want to move to 1:01:01.000 --> 1:01:04.600 l A. And my dad was like, no, please, don't please. 1:01:04.680 --> 1:01:06.720 And I was like, he's like, you're gonna be a 1:01:06.720 --> 1:01:08.440 little fish in a big pond there, and you're a 1:01:08.440 --> 1:01:10.160 big fish and a little pond here. And I was like, 1:01:11.240 --> 1:01:12.840 I said, I really want to do it, this is 1:01:12.880 --> 1:01:14.800 my chance, like I really felt it, you know, And 1:01:14.840 --> 1:01:17.360 so I made the decision not to He supported me, 1:01:17.560 --> 1:01:19.600 but he knew, he knew. He saw me in my 1:01:19.640 --> 1:01:21.560 band play and he told my mom one night he said, 1:01:21.600 --> 1:01:23.960 I feel like I can rest like the music is 1:01:24.000 --> 1:01:25.520 in good hands. That was a very sweet thing. I 1:01:25.560 --> 1:01:28.120 don't know if that was an accurate thing, but he 1:01:28.280 --> 1:01:30.600 but that's what he said. So he he really believed 1:01:30.640 --> 1:01:33.520 in me and supported me. So I came out to 1:01:33.640 --> 1:01:34.840 l A and just did it, you know. But I 1:01:35.040 --> 1:01:37.320 tell my daughter, I'm like, I do wish I had 1:01:37.680 --> 1:01:39.880 had to read more. I wish I read a lot now. 1:01:39.920 --> 1:01:41.760 But you know, when I moved to l A, I 1:01:41.840 --> 1:01:44.080 just stopped all the education and I was like in 1:01:44.080 --> 1:01:46.240 a rock and roll band and I and I'm like, 1:01:46.280 --> 1:01:50.480 I wish I wish I had a learned cryptography. I 1:01:50.520 --> 1:01:53.640 wish I had a learned more programming and my I'm 1:01:53.720 --> 1:01:57.200 learning it now, but I feel handicapped by it. And 1:01:57.200 --> 1:01:59.640 and I wish that I had have had more extensive 1:01:59.680 --> 1:02:03.280 literature your classes, because I didn't read Rimbo and I 1:02:03.320 --> 1:02:06.160 didn't read until like late and I'm just getting into 1:02:06.200 --> 1:02:09.360 it now. And like I love like Hemingway, but I've 1:02:09.400 --> 1:02:11.200 only read like one book of his. You know, I 1:02:11.240 --> 1:02:13.480 loved Bukawski. I've read a bunch of his poetry and 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:15.400 a bunch of his books. But in the last couple 1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:18.520 of years, like I really wish I had a hadn't 1:02:18.520 --> 1:02:20.080 done all that. But I don't know if college would 1:02:20.080 --> 1:02:22.320 have been for me, because because going all the way 1:02:22.360 --> 1:02:24.920 with all the other courses, I don't I think I 1:02:24.920 --> 1:02:28.760 would have been too frustrated to because I wanted to 1:02:28.840 --> 1:02:31.840 make music right away. You know what I mean? Okay, 1:02:32.200 --> 1:02:36.040 music is the family business. That's both the blessing and 1:02:36.080 --> 1:02:40.200 a curse. So tell me about that. I mean, how 1:02:40.240 --> 1:02:42.960 you decide to go in the family business. Inherently you're 1:02:42.960 --> 1:02:47.640 in your father's shadow. Well, you know, it's so weird 1:02:47.680 --> 1:02:49.480 because I almost looked at what I was doing is 1:02:49.680 --> 1:02:52.920 a completely different business. Because I loved country music, but 1:02:52.960 --> 1:02:56.200 I had not fallen in love with it like I 1:02:56.200 --> 1:02:58.640 I loved my dad's music, and I knew my dad's music, 1:02:58.680 --> 1:03:00.720 and I knew Willie's music, and I would listen to 1:03:00.760 --> 1:03:04.040 my dad like but I was an MTV kid. I listened. 1:03:04.120 --> 1:03:07.520 I listened to you know, my first record I bought 1:03:07.560 --> 1:03:09.640 with my own money. Was Dad's a one, and I 1:03:09.680 --> 1:03:12.280 like had like guns and Roses was a big band. 1:03:12.320 --> 1:03:14.400 And I would go to Sam Goody and I would 1:03:14.440 --> 1:03:17.520 watch MTV and I would watch like all of that 1:03:17.640 --> 1:03:20.680 the real world, and I was I was really in 1:03:20.800 --> 1:03:23.520 that world, and that was a completely different world than 1:03:23.560 --> 1:03:26.280 what my dad was, you know. And in Nashville had 1:03:26.320 --> 1:03:29.760 no appeal to me because at the time, Garth Brooks 1:03:29.800 --> 1:03:33.040 and all of that was big and I was too 1:03:33.080 --> 1:03:36.160 young to know about the Layla's scene like where three 1:03:36.200 --> 1:03:37.880 came out of and b R five for nine and 1:03:37.920 --> 1:03:40.560 all that that. I wasn't into that at the time. 1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:44.160 I was like, I thought, in my mind, Okay, I'm 1:03:44.160 --> 1:03:46.240 gonna be in a rock band. So there's two places 1:03:46.240 --> 1:03:48.320 to go. It's the l A or New York. And 1:03:48.360 --> 1:03:51.560 I had loved l A from a little kid, like 1:03:51.640 --> 1:03:55.480 my dad. I came here when I mean, I don't 1:03:55.480 --> 1:03:57.600 know if I was five years old. My dad was 1:03:57.600 --> 1:04:01.800 shooting um this stage Coach remake they did with all 1:04:01.840 --> 1:04:04.840 the Highwayman guys in it, and we stayed in like 1:04:04.920 --> 1:04:08.000 Beverly Hills, which is like hoity toity, I know, but 1:04:08.080 --> 1:04:10.440 it's like, uh, we stayed at a hotel, and I 1:04:10.440 --> 1:04:14.120 would make my mom take me over to I have 1:04:14.160 --> 1:04:15.960 like a second mom that lived and traveled with his 1:04:16.040 --> 1:04:18.840 name Maureen Rafferty, who who was like still a saint 1:04:18.840 --> 1:04:21.680 in my life, and I would have her take me 1:04:21.720 --> 1:04:25.200 into Hollywood because because I was obsessed with the Muppet movie. 1:04:25.720 --> 1:04:28.400 I love the Muppets, and they went to Hollywood, and 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:30.440 there was this vision in my mind that that was 1:04:30.480 --> 1:04:32.600 the dream Factory, that that's really the reason why I 1:04:32.600 --> 1:04:34.000 moved to you know, I love it, you know, at 1:04:34.000 --> 1:04:37.080 the end with Worston Wells, Yeah, yeah, tell you. I'll 1:04:37.080 --> 1:04:41.880 tell him to write the standard Richard Famous contract, oh yeah. 1:04:41.920 --> 1:04:44.320 And Paul Williams and the whole thing, like that movie 1:04:44.320 --> 1:04:48.000 in itself was like like a training course of the 1:04:48.040 --> 1:04:50.680 greats of film and music in a weird way, you know. 1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:53.560 And so I was as a kid just obsessed with it, 1:04:53.600 --> 1:04:55.360 and I would like want to go into Hollywood, you know, 1:04:55.440 --> 1:04:58.440 and so so it kind of was always in my mind. 1:04:58.960 --> 1:05:00.880 And I still tell people it's like the Muppet Movie 1:05:00.920 --> 1:05:02.440 was the first thing that made me want to move here, 1:05:02.480 --> 1:05:05.160 and and it really and it's still it's so weird. 1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:07.600 I'm forty two years old and I still have the 1:05:07.680 --> 1:05:09.640 same feeling I had as a little kid here, like 1:05:10.000 --> 1:05:12.360 even just the history. Like I said, I love Bikowski, 1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:15.600 and I love like Marilynn row locations, and I love 1:05:15.640 --> 1:05:18.880 like all the band like the Warren Zevon and all 1:05:18.880 --> 1:05:21.400 the pockets of history, and I still get this feeling 1:05:21.480 --> 1:05:24.000 like it's still such a magical place to me, even 1:05:24.040 --> 1:05:26.880 even through all the changes that have happened here and 1:05:26.920 --> 1:05:29.480 all the craziness and how expensive it is, It's like 1:05:29.520 --> 1:05:32.040 there's still a little piece of me that's like I 1:05:32.040 --> 1:05:35.920 still feel like Kermit the Frog going to Hollywood and 1:05:36.000 --> 1:05:38.520 being here, you know, and and now I feel the 1:05:38.560 --> 1:05:43.280 same way. I know exactly what you're talking. Are you here, Yeah, yeah, 1:05:43.280 --> 1:05:46.480 I'm in l a I didn't have since before you 1:05:46.480 --> 1:05:48.320 were born. To me. When I grew up, California was 1:05:48.360 --> 1:05:50.400 a dream I used to beg my mother, Let's move 1:05:50.440 --> 1:05:54.120 to California. Let's move to California. I always say I 1:05:54.120 --> 1:05:56.480 moved to California because of the beach boys. They were 1:05:56.480 --> 1:05:58.520 seeing about a much better life. And it's just like 1:05:58.600 --> 1:06:00.840 I came to California, so it's true, Well I'm going there. 1:06:01.240 --> 1:06:03.240 That sounds like we have a lot in common. Then 1:06:03.280 --> 1:06:05.120 in that way. In that sense, I think I might 1:06:05.120 --> 1:06:06.840 have known that, but I think for some reason I 1:06:06.840 --> 1:06:08.560 thought you were on the East Coast. I don't know 1:06:08.600 --> 1:06:11.200 what I'm thinking, but but like, uh, I don't know 1:06:11.280 --> 1:06:13.560 what part of town you live in, but but I've 1:06:13.600 --> 1:06:16.040 kind of moved all around and I love this town 1:06:16.080 --> 1:06:17.920 and I still have that same kind of feeling like 1:06:17.960 --> 1:06:20.280 them uppets where my beach boys. And then you know, 1:06:20.320 --> 1:06:22.400 then there was like guns and Roses, and of course, 1:06:22.480 --> 1:06:25.120 like you know, Noted Nails was here and they all 1:06:25.160 --> 1:06:27.880 these guys had moved here, and I was like, that's 1:06:27.880 --> 1:06:30.280 where you gotta go. Has you gotta go there? So 1:06:30.360 --> 1:06:33.080 like in New York, while I loved loved it, it 1:06:33.160 --> 1:06:35.920 just wasn't my speed. It was like this is the weather. 1:06:36.040 --> 1:06:39.040 I didn't like the cold winners and and coal and 1:06:39.160 --> 1:06:41.800 hot human summers. In Nashville, I was like, well what 1:06:41.880 --> 1:06:43.760 I like about it? You know, you might know Nashville 1:06:43.840 --> 1:06:46.000 because I grew up in the suburbs, and l A 1:06:46.120 --> 1:06:48.000 is a giant suburbs. You can have a car, you 1:06:48.000 --> 1:06:51.440 can park. You know that makes terrible traffic, but it 1:06:51.480 --> 1:06:54.120 feels comfortably. You're supposed to being in a high rise 1:06:54.240 --> 1:06:58.480 all glob together. Yeah, totally. It's very similar to like Nashville, 1:06:58.560 --> 1:07:00.840 Like it was very easy trans issue. It's just like 1:07:01.560 --> 1:07:04.120 much more beautiful, you know. And and at the time too, 1:07:04.240 --> 1:07:07.480 my dad was getting sicker and he couldn't handle the 1:07:07.520 --> 1:07:11.240 cold winters in Nashville, so they would start going to Arizona. 1:07:11.320 --> 1:07:14.000 My dad always loved Arizona. My mom's from there. They 1:07:14.040 --> 1:07:16.200 started going to Arizona in the winters, and I was 1:07:16.480 --> 1:07:18.720 old enough where I would not go all the time. 1:07:18.720 --> 1:07:21.040 I would stay at home in Nashville. And they rent 1:07:21.080 --> 1:07:23.000 a house. So when I told him I was going 1:07:23.040 --> 1:07:25.480 to come here, he was like, His threat to me was, well, 1:07:25.480 --> 1:07:26.959 then I'm going to sell this house and I'm gonna 1:07:27.000 --> 1:07:29.840 move to Arizona. And I was like, okay, do it, Dad, 1:07:29.920 --> 1:07:31.680 I'm ready, let's do it, you know, and he was like, 1:07:31.760 --> 1:07:34.120 damn it. It It didn't work, but but he did, and 1:07:34.160 --> 1:07:36.560 we just kind of migrated west, you know, and and 1:07:36.640 --> 1:07:39.080 to me, like it felt like home and then I 1:07:39.080 --> 1:07:41.240 could get to them very easily. They lived in Arizona. 1:07:41.280 --> 1:07:43.600 My mom still lives there and I drive down to 1:07:43.600 --> 1:07:45.200 see her and you know all that. So it all 1:07:45.280 --> 1:07:47.800 kind of worked out. But but it was it was 1:07:47.840 --> 1:07:50.680 the thing. I wanted to come here, and I wanted 1:07:50.680 --> 1:07:52.480 to skip college and I want to just try my 1:07:52.560 --> 1:07:54.840 hand at it, and and I wasn't And I didn't 1:07:54.840 --> 1:07:58.960 like the Wayland's Sun business either, like that. It's as 1:07:59.000 --> 1:08:01.480 proud as I was about him, I felt like people 1:08:01.480 --> 1:08:04.520 couldn't see me, you know, and I would. I didn't 1:08:04.520 --> 1:08:07.240 want to be that. And as many handouts as I 1:08:07.240 --> 1:08:10.840 could have gotten with it, I really wanted to really 1:08:11.200 --> 1:08:13.240 do my own thing. And I felt like in l A, 1:08:13.360 --> 1:08:15.720 I could be this transplant. And it was really like 1:08:15.800 --> 1:08:18.320 that nobody gave a ship like at all, like you 1:08:18.360 --> 1:08:21.120 know who my dad was, especially country and stuff there. 1:08:21.160 --> 1:08:23.880 Occasionally I would meet someone like you met like Jerry 1:08:23.920 --> 1:08:26.920 Cantrell very early on, and he was like, you're Jennings 1:08:26.960 --> 1:08:28.600 and I was thinking, he's like right on, like he 1:08:28.680 --> 1:08:30.439 knew he was said to my dad, you know, but 1:08:30.479 --> 1:08:34.000 there are very few people who were like that, um, 1:08:34.040 --> 1:08:36.559 so you know. And it did just that, and I 1:08:36.600 --> 1:08:39.840 felt like it's like I'm I'm proud that I've stayed 1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:41.679 here because I've had a lot of friends that have left, 1:08:41.680 --> 1:08:43.960 and I'm proud because I've hung onto it. And I 1:08:44.040 --> 1:08:46.560 really loved this city. I I go to Nashville. I 1:08:46.560 --> 1:08:48.640 don't recognize it, but I love Los Angeles and I 1:08:48.640 --> 1:08:51.759 would do anything for this city. It's given me my children, 1:08:51.800 --> 1:08:53.719 it's given me my life, it's given me my wife. 1:08:53.760 --> 1:08:56.559 It's you know, so to me, like, I feel like 1:08:56.560 --> 1:08:59.640 it was the best decision I ever made. But as 1:08:59.720 --> 1:09:03.960 long as I can just make enough money to live here. Okay, 1:09:04.040 --> 1:09:09.439 your father dies when you're young, how does that affect you? Well, 1:09:09.520 --> 1:09:13.200 you know, you know, it's weird because like I was 1:09:13.200 --> 1:09:15.720 twenty two, and I remember when it happened, and it 1:09:15.760 --> 1:09:18.439 was it was a shock, but like at that age, 1:09:20.960 --> 1:09:23.240 it that I just the other day, I was talking 1:09:23.240 --> 1:09:26.000 to someone who whose father just died, a young man. 1:09:26.040 --> 1:09:28.600 I'm trying to remember who it was, and he was 1:09:28.640 --> 1:09:30.439 saying that He's like, I didn't cry, you know, and 1:09:30.520 --> 1:09:33.920 I cried, but I was like I felt like I 1:09:33.960 --> 1:09:35.519 had to be strong, and I was also I just 1:09:36.520 --> 1:09:39.920 twenty two. You don't really appreciate things. And this is 1:09:40.000 --> 1:09:42.679 kind of goes back to my apology in the beginning 1:09:42.680 --> 1:09:44.639 of this too, because it's like, you know, the periods 1:09:44.680 --> 1:09:47.040 of time in my twenties, I don't know what I 1:09:47.080 --> 1:09:49.280 was thinking. It's even like with social media, like I'm 1:09:49.320 --> 1:09:51.759 completely off of it. And I just there were periods 1:09:51.760 --> 1:09:55.840 of time when I you're so narcissistic in your youth 1:09:56.720 --> 1:09:59.760 that you don't realize what you're sending out and you 1:09:59.760 --> 1:10:02.800 don't realize what you're receiving, and you kind of just 1:10:04.080 --> 1:10:06.920 you're operating on instincts and they're not always right. And 1:10:06.960 --> 1:10:10.479 I think, like with my dad's dying, at the time, 1:10:11.120 --> 1:10:13.880 I was like the tough guy, like, I can make 1:10:13.920 --> 1:10:16.720 it through this. He was sick for a long time, 1:10:16.760 --> 1:10:18.479 so we were prepared for it. You know, he had 1:10:18.479 --> 1:10:20.840 been he had been struggling with his health for for 1:10:20.880 --> 1:10:24.720 a good five six years, so you know, there was 1:10:24.760 --> 1:10:28.479 definitely not easy, but it was it. I just kind 1:10:28.479 --> 1:10:31.760 of powered through it. And and at the time I was, 1:10:32.320 --> 1:10:34.240 I was in the middle of everything we were I 1:10:34.360 --> 1:10:37.000 just you know, I did my my band broke up 1:10:37.080 --> 1:10:39.559 that the year right after that, and when I started 1:10:39.600 --> 1:10:42.000 doing my own thing, and I got in the relationship 1:10:42.040 --> 1:10:46.120 with my kids mom and uh, we had kind of 1:10:46.120 --> 1:10:49.679 a whirlwind relationship that happened. And then I was going 1:10:49.720 --> 1:10:52.040 back and forth, visiting New York and doing all this time. 1:10:52.080 --> 1:10:55.360 I just never processed any of this, you know, And 1:10:55.360 --> 1:10:57.240 and then once I had kids, And it's really not 1:10:57.320 --> 1:11:00.599 even until like the last probably ten years that it's 1:11:00.680 --> 1:11:05.760 really like I've realized, a I didn't really know what 1:11:05.800 --> 1:11:07.479 to do in a lot of cases in my life, 1:11:07.520 --> 1:11:09.160 and I don't know that I made the right decisions, 1:11:09.200 --> 1:11:11.719 but I I was always operating on what I thought 1:11:11.920 --> 1:11:15.000 he would do, but I never I always I kind 1:11:15.000 --> 1:11:16.720 of had to defend for myself in a way, even 1:11:16.760 --> 1:11:20.040 though my mom is awesome and strong, you know, But 1:11:20.240 --> 1:11:23.400 it definitely, it definitely kind of cut it kind of 1:11:23.439 --> 1:11:26.200 stunted one part of my growth, you know, especially because 1:11:26.240 --> 1:11:29.640 of how uh close my dad and I were, you 1:11:29.640 --> 1:11:32.200 know what I mean. But again, like I didn't really 1:11:32.280 --> 1:11:35.439 mourn it. I didn't really. I had never really mourned 1:11:35.479 --> 1:11:37.920 it in a weird way. It's like I kind of gradually, 1:11:37.960 --> 1:11:40.519 I think, started to mourn it, but more in his death. 1:11:40.560 --> 1:11:43.479 But man, but it was weird because like once I 1:11:43.920 --> 1:11:49.320 released my first single, my first sorry solo record, is 1:11:49.360 --> 1:11:52.200 when I like started to feel the shadow. I had 1:11:52.240 --> 1:11:54.360 never felt that before because I had this rock band 1:11:54.400 --> 1:11:56.240 in l A and then all this. So I'm doing 1:11:56.280 --> 1:11:58.360 these records that are kind of country themed and I'm 1:11:58.400 --> 1:12:01.360 kind of like giving my day, add using like the 1:12:01.400 --> 1:12:04.240 Whyland logo on them because I was like proudly flying it, 1:12:04.400 --> 1:12:06.479 you know, in his absence, and he'd only been dead 1:12:07.000 --> 1:12:09.639 two years or so, so I was kind of like 1:12:09.640 --> 1:12:13.240 like embracing his legacy and doing my own thing with it. 1:12:13.840 --> 1:12:17.240 And I realized very quickly, like oh wow, like like 1:12:17.320 --> 1:12:20.720 that shadow thing it exists out there. Doesn't exist here 1:12:20.720 --> 1:12:23.439 in l A, but it exists once I put myself 1:12:23.479 --> 1:12:25.360 out there, you know. So that was also my own 1:12:25.439 --> 1:12:29.519 kind of like struggle with it and understanding it without 1:12:29.600 --> 1:12:32.880 him here, you know. Um. But but at the same time, 1:12:32.920 --> 1:12:36.200 like you know, it wasn't until like I had my kids, 1:12:36.280 --> 1:12:39.720 and then that changed because my daughter Alabama's fourteen now, 1:12:39.800 --> 1:12:43.040 like she's like just we're a lot a lot alike, 1:12:43.240 --> 1:12:45.920 and she's very in her own head and creative, and 1:12:46.280 --> 1:12:48.880 I can do everything by myself and very independent. And 1:12:48.960 --> 1:12:51.439 my son, who is we call black Jack, but his 1:12:51.520 --> 1:12:55.520 name is Whalen. Also he uh, he's like a little barbarian, 1:12:55.600 --> 1:12:58.160 like he likes, he likes he's really into computers, really 1:12:58.160 --> 1:12:59.800 in the video games, so that that side of me 1:12:59.880 --> 1:13:01.920 is there, but he's like doesn't know what he's gonna 1:13:01.920 --> 1:13:04.080 do quite with his life. But he's like into everything, 1:13:04.200 --> 1:13:06.719 you know. And once I kind of like as a parent, 1:13:07.000 --> 1:13:10.120 kind of saw what it was like and what the 1:13:10.160 --> 1:13:13.839 responsibility was and how the relationship could be, it started 1:13:13.840 --> 1:13:16.280 to get I started to mourn my dad, but I 1:13:16.320 --> 1:13:19.519 also started to understand aside that I didn't understand before, 1:13:20.080 --> 1:13:22.880 which is just like how attentive he was to me, 1:13:23.240 --> 1:13:26.320 because it would been like my old older brothers and sisters, 1:13:26.400 --> 1:13:29.880 Like they got the Whalon that was on the road 1:13:30.360 --> 1:13:33.000 in the very early parts of his career. They lived 1:13:33.000 --> 1:13:34.519 with their mom and Texas for a long time. Then 1:13:34.560 --> 1:13:36.760 they came and worked for him on the road, so 1:13:36.800 --> 1:13:39.400 they were there for all the crazy stuff in the seventies, 1:13:39.439 --> 1:13:42.800 you know, I got the older, kinder, gentler Whalon that 1:13:42.880 --> 1:13:46.080 was in his forties and and cleaning his act up 1:13:46.120 --> 1:13:49.559 and going into this like legacy twilight phase of his career, 1:13:49.600 --> 1:13:51.880 and he was very attentive to me, like and I 1:13:51.920 --> 1:13:55.640 think I was. I realized how attentive he was to 1:13:55.680 --> 1:13:57.920 me after I had kids and realized how important it 1:13:58.000 --> 1:14:00.559 was to be attentive to them and how much it meant, 1:14:00.600 --> 1:14:02.519 how much it fulfilled something in me, you know what 1:14:02.520 --> 1:14:14.439 I mean? Okay, your father dies, their assets, songs, records, uh, 1:14:14.560 --> 1:14:18.080 name and likeness. Do you benefit financially from any of 1:14:18.120 --> 1:14:21.559 that or your that's all your mother or when she passes, 1:14:21.680 --> 1:14:24.080 will you benefit or you have to share it with people? 1:14:24.280 --> 1:14:27.600 What's going on there? Well, there's uh, you know, I 1:14:27.640 --> 1:14:29.479 didn't we didn't like when he passed away, Like the 1:14:29.520 --> 1:14:32.439 trust is in my mom's name and all that, and 1:14:32.920 --> 1:14:35.680 there are certain things that of course will go to 1:14:36.600 --> 1:14:39.280 all my other brothers and sisters. They're like a couple 1:14:39.320 --> 1:14:42.160 of have passed away, but like my brother Buddy, and 1:14:42.600 --> 1:14:45.479 there's grandchildren and everything like like for instance, the Dukes 1:14:45.520 --> 1:14:48.759 of Hazard song, the publishing from that song is split 1:14:48.800 --> 1:14:52.640 across all the kids and grandkids already, so that that 1:14:52.640 --> 1:14:55.040 that has happened. But I don't, you know, I never 1:14:55.080 --> 1:14:58.360 got like some payout and and I don't really anticipate 1:14:58.439 --> 1:15:01.880 one because a lot of that, you know was me 1:15:01.920 --> 1:15:03.639 and my my A lot of that was my mom 1:15:03.640 --> 1:15:08.760 and my dad's legacy, and she, while she is maintained 1:15:08.800 --> 1:15:12.280 it and kept up with it. Um you know, that's 1:15:12.320 --> 1:15:16.080 that's basically been her thing that you know when she goes. 1:15:16.640 --> 1:15:19.280 I know, my sister Jennifer, that's her daughter and everything. 1:15:19.400 --> 1:15:23.559 I'm sure, you know, I'm sure like certain things will 1:15:23.560 --> 1:15:26.599 get transferred where they are and I know what goes 1:15:26.640 --> 1:15:29.160 where and everything. But to me, like that's all, it's 1:15:29.160 --> 1:15:30.960 all part of his legacy. And I like hate the 1:15:31.000 --> 1:15:34.360 idea of even thinking about that because it's like again 1:15:34.520 --> 1:15:38.320 like I never looked at his thing as a monetary thing, 1:15:38.360 --> 1:15:41.960 like I look, I deal with his his legacy all 1:15:42.000 --> 1:15:45.280 the time, Like I started the merchandise company that we do. 1:15:45.400 --> 1:15:48.400 I I've been working to do a film about his life. 1:15:48.479 --> 1:15:50.960 I have all these masters that we're going through and 1:15:51.200 --> 1:15:54.320 I'm involved in all of the kind of legacy stuff. 1:15:54.360 --> 1:15:56.960 We just signed a deal with a great guy, Philip 1:15:57.080 --> 1:16:01.240 phil Sandhouse, who works at um W ME Legends to 1:16:01.360 --> 1:16:04.320 manage the estate. We've stayed away from that for a 1:16:04.320 --> 1:16:07.000 long time. We did it ourselves, and now I really 1:16:07.040 --> 1:16:09.800 felt like we we found the right partner and we 1:16:09.840 --> 1:16:12.000 needed to to kind of move it that way because 1:16:12.640 --> 1:16:14.760 and you talk to my mom, She'll say, you better 1:16:14.760 --> 1:16:17.040 get a movie out. All the Whitland fans are dying. 1:16:17.280 --> 1:16:19.760 And I'm like, you know, she says stuff like that, 1:16:19.840 --> 1:16:23.160 and so in that keeping that kind of jokingly but 1:16:23.160 --> 1:16:25.080 but like keeping all that in mind. I really felt 1:16:25.120 --> 1:16:28.360 like at this point, I'm getting so busy, I'm getting older, 1:16:28.800 --> 1:16:30.760 my mom's getting older, Like we need to like put 1:16:30.800 --> 1:16:33.200 this in the hands of somebody that can really manage 1:16:33.240 --> 1:16:37.360 it and grow it and recapture masters and do things 1:16:37.400 --> 1:16:40.120 that we've tried to do but never had like the 1:16:40.160 --> 1:16:42.920 reach in the in the power to do. So that's 1:16:42.920 --> 1:16:44.880 been cool, but I'm I'm involved in all that. But 1:16:44.920 --> 1:16:48.240 as far as like pay out after you know, what 1:16:48.320 --> 1:16:50.160 happens happens, I look at it like it's going to 1:16:50.280 --> 1:16:52.519 go to my kids whatever I get, And I look 1:16:52.520 --> 1:16:54.320 at I look, I'm already at a place in my 1:16:54.360 --> 1:16:56.240 life where everything I do is to try and set 1:16:56.320 --> 1:16:59.439 up a life for them or at least leave something 1:16:59.520 --> 1:17:03.559 for them. So to me, that will be awesome if 1:17:03.600 --> 1:17:06.040 if some of that comes and helps their life. But 1:17:06.080 --> 1:17:08.920 I'm looking at it like I gotta do that all 1:17:08.960 --> 1:17:11.720 by myself, and if that happens, it happens. I hope 1:17:11.720 --> 1:17:13.920 my mom never dies. I hope they figured a way 1:17:13.920 --> 1:17:15.880 to make her a cyborg and she lasts longer than 1:17:15.880 --> 1:17:19.600 everybody else, you know. So so it is what it is. 1:17:19.720 --> 1:17:23.200 But Okay, a lot of the records you were involved 1:17:23.200 --> 1:17:29.240 with can be classified under the Americana umbrella. So tell 1:17:29.240 --> 1:17:31.360 me what do you think about that scene and where 1:17:31.400 --> 1:17:36.519 it fits in the overall scene. Well, I have I 1:17:36.600 --> 1:17:39.040 have opinions on it because Okay, first of all, like 1:17:39.080 --> 1:17:41.479 I love Jed Hilly, and he's been very kind to me, 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:45.600 and he's been very kind to the whole scene. I 1:17:45.680 --> 1:17:48.000 know that, like the Americana thing was kind of born 1:17:48.080 --> 1:17:50.840 out of this John pryor Nammy Lou Harris era of 1:17:50.880 --> 1:17:54.040 things that were happening, and so I look at it 1:17:54.400 --> 1:17:58.080 as a great thing. But I have this other opinion 1:17:58.920 --> 1:18:01.479 that I remember like Tyler Children, and I always felt 1:18:01.520 --> 1:18:05.040 this way. And and he's a I love him, He's 1:18:05.040 --> 1:18:07.080 a good friend of mine, and and he's he's an 1:18:07.120 --> 1:18:12.040 amazing singer. And I always felt like and and Jed Hilly, 1:18:12.080 --> 1:18:14.559 like I said, God bless him. I love love what 1:18:14.600 --> 1:18:18.200 he's doing. But I kind of felt like when you 1:18:18.320 --> 1:18:22.519 created Americana, it created a license to root for country, 1:18:22.600 --> 1:18:25.960 to go down the gutter. And I feel like had 1:18:26.080 --> 1:18:29.880 there never been Americana, that maybe a lot of these 1:18:29.920 --> 1:18:33.760 other artists would have been kind of considered country, and 1:18:33.840 --> 1:18:36.120 it might have it might have kind of kept us 1:18:36.200 --> 1:18:39.160 from they kept country from maybe going as far down 1:18:39.160 --> 1:18:42.559 the path as it currently has. That that being said, 1:18:42.960 --> 1:18:44.719 we don't I don't know that that is the case. 1:18:45.080 --> 1:18:47.559 I definitely don't know if like shovels and rope would 1:18:47.560 --> 1:18:50.280 have been gotten the chance that they got in the 1:18:50.320 --> 1:18:53.080 country Moniker. And at the end of the day, I 1:18:53.120 --> 1:18:55.920 think genres are kind of outdated in the first place, 1:18:55.960 --> 1:18:57.920 because they were always just a marketing tool for radio 1:18:57.960 --> 1:19:00.840 and stores, which are both kind of gone. But you know, 1:19:01.560 --> 1:19:05.120 I always felt like Americana was like creating an area 1:19:05.840 --> 1:19:08.960 for for the country world to say, no, that's not us, 1:19:09.000 --> 1:19:11.240 that's to us to this, put it over to Americana, 1:19:11.320 --> 1:19:13.000 you know, and it kind of like created a ditch 1:19:13.080 --> 1:19:16.320 to throw all the stuff that that was expanding the 1:19:16.360 --> 1:19:19.000 borders of country, you know, and this allowed them to 1:19:19.080 --> 1:19:23.160 kind of keep inside there a little like uh, you 1:19:23.200 --> 1:19:26.200 know whatever you call it echo chamber, you know. So 1:19:26.200 --> 1:19:30.680 so I'm kind of conflicted on on it, but I 1:19:30.720 --> 1:19:33.880 appreciate it, and I appreciate the hard work that has 1:19:33.920 --> 1:19:36.479 gone into making it become as big as it has. 1:19:36.560 --> 1:19:39.880 And like, like for instance, Brandy, Brandy was upset that 1:19:40.000 --> 1:19:43.439 her new record, the Grammy Stuff for Right On Time 1:19:43.560 --> 1:19:46.160 was considered pop and that was done by the Grammys. 1:19:46.160 --> 1:19:48.920 They made that choice, and she was upset by it 1:19:49.000 --> 1:19:54.479 because she felt like, as a LGBTQ woman who had 1:19:54.560 --> 1:19:58.639 fought like she had to get where she is, that 1:19:58.880 --> 1:20:02.800 the representation Americana was very important, which I agree, you know, 1:20:02.920 --> 1:20:06.600 and a representation in country as well. But I, on 1:20:06.640 --> 1:20:08.519 the other hand, when I spoke to her about this, 1:20:08.640 --> 1:20:11.840 I was like, I think this is a fantastic thing 1:20:12.000 --> 1:20:16.400 because look at who is generally in the pop category, 1:20:16.479 --> 1:20:19.040 and then look what you're doing. And if if you know, 1:20:19.160 --> 1:20:21.400 on the chance that we win or if we don't, 1:20:21.479 --> 1:20:25.000 either either way, it's already happened that this has now 1:20:25.080 --> 1:20:28.559 been accepted as pop. So like, think of how much 1:20:28.600 --> 1:20:33.160 better pop might get because you're in this this you know, 1:20:33.240 --> 1:20:35.240 you're you're all of a sudden, they're now going to 1:20:35.320 --> 1:20:37.639 have to take the plastic stuff and put it next 1:20:37.680 --> 1:20:41.759 to something that's very real, and I think that's that's 1:20:41.880 --> 1:20:45.200 a very important thing. So so in that way, I 1:20:45.200 --> 1:20:47.639 feel like it was a really cool choice. And if 1:20:47.680 --> 1:20:50.080 she wins, I was like, think how much better music 1:20:50.160 --> 1:20:52.120 might get, you know, because they're gonna try and copy 1:20:52.200 --> 1:20:55.240 that success, you know, So I look at it like that, 1:20:55.320 --> 1:20:58.440 but um, at the same time, you know, it's genres. 1:20:58.479 --> 1:21:00.840 And Buddy Holly told my Daddy told me at a 1:21:00.920 --> 1:21:03.000 very young age, he said, Buddy Holly told him. He said, 1:21:03.040 --> 1:21:05.800 don't call yourself country or don't call yourself rock, call 1:21:05.880 --> 1:21:08.479 yourself pop because you've always got room to wiggle in 1:21:08.520 --> 1:21:11.840 any direction from that. And I always took that to mind, 1:21:11.960 --> 1:21:14.479 like pop is the center and if you can get 1:21:14.600 --> 1:21:16.640 right there, then you can be anything you know at 1:21:16.680 --> 1:21:21.679 any time. So who knows. Okay, But the scene has changed, certainly, 1:21:21.720 --> 1:21:24.599 I'm older than you. We have the Beatles in the 1:21:24.680 --> 1:21:29.280 FM explosion after that and the seventies, we're all about that. 1:21:29.360 --> 1:21:32.720 You cannot have a hit single. You could be a 1:21:32.720 --> 1:21:36.000 gigantic act, you know, Stairway to Heaven, not a single. 1:21:36.520 --> 1:21:39.639 MTV comes along turns it into a monoculture. If you're 1:21:39.640 --> 1:21:43.680 on MTV, you're incredibly successful, and it's about having the 1:21:43.800 --> 1:21:47.800 hit single. Then more than ever nineties or an era 1:21:47.880 --> 1:21:51.040 of confusion, you have the Seattle scene, you have hip hop. 1:21:51.160 --> 1:21:54.519 Then the Internet comes along blows it all apart. Yea, 1:21:54.880 --> 1:21:57.439 So what do we know? You know, we fought the 1:21:57.479 --> 1:22:02.160 trif al trading wars, streaming is here, but the media 1:22:02.439 --> 1:22:05.719 continues to focus on what they consider to be hits, 1:22:06.600 --> 1:22:10.360 the Spotify Top fifty, which have a smaller part of 1:22:10.479 --> 1:22:15.320 the overall marketplace than ever before. So I guess when 1:22:15.320 --> 1:22:18.120 you're working in the area, other than with brand you 1:22:18.120 --> 1:22:21.240 who had such huge success, a lot of these other 1:22:21.360 --> 1:22:24.800 artists you're working with, I would assume, And that's why 1:22:24.840 --> 1:22:27.559 I want to know it's not about having a hit signal, 1:22:28.120 --> 1:22:31.720 but by the same token, it must be frustrating that 1:22:31.840 --> 1:22:34.639 to a degree they're ghetto wised and they're not bigger 1:22:34.720 --> 1:22:38.439 boy the same token, they're actually pretty big, just people 1:22:38.560 --> 1:22:41.879 don't know. Then, as you talk about the plastic stuff, 1:22:42.200 --> 1:22:45.360 you know, the Americana forgetting how the music sounds, that 1:22:45.439 --> 1:22:47.880 where you that's where you might go for songs that 1:22:48.000 --> 1:22:53.519 actually say something and those usually resonate most. So what 1:22:53.600 --> 1:22:55.640 do you think about all that? Well, I had to 1:22:55.680 --> 1:22:58.040 say that there was one of your lessons letters where 1:22:58.080 --> 1:23:01.040 you you talked about this with the Spotify by and 1:23:01.040 --> 1:23:03.919 and all of that, and I loved it. I remember 1:23:04.080 --> 1:23:08.280 feeling that you really were saying something I wish I could. 1:23:08.320 --> 1:23:10.240 It has been a long time, so I don't can't 1:23:10.240 --> 1:23:12.080 remember exactly what you were saying in it, all of it, 1:23:12.120 --> 1:23:17.599 but you were saying something that I you know, here 1:23:17.600 --> 1:23:20.080 we are what what unfortunately I think has happened. I 1:23:20.120 --> 1:23:22.000 know this is quite the answer to what you're saying, 1:23:22.040 --> 1:23:25.679 but I'll say it very quickly. Is that, like it's 1:23:25.680 --> 1:23:29.520 like with social media, the Internet is an open protocol, 1:23:29.840 --> 1:23:33.800 but like people, for people to understand it, it it had 1:23:33.800 --> 1:23:36.200 to be translated in terms they can understand at first, 1:23:36.240 --> 1:23:38.479 Like not everybody are going to be computer nerds and 1:23:38.479 --> 1:23:41.479 figure out that you can just do all of this 1:23:41.560 --> 1:23:45.559 peer to peer stuff. So so like Twitter and all 1:23:45.600 --> 1:23:48.800 these other companies figured out or Spotify or anything that 1:23:48.840 --> 1:23:52.800 you could build a layer on top of it that 1:23:52.920 --> 1:23:55.519 would be a translation layer for people who didn't really 1:23:55.800 --> 1:23:58.280 made it very easy to use what the Internet was, 1:23:58.920 --> 1:24:02.360 but then therefore gain control over all of the information 1:24:02.479 --> 1:24:05.360 very quickly. So there's this layer that could be cut out. 1:24:06.080 --> 1:24:09.360 Of course, there's not like a technological solution that has 1:24:09.400 --> 1:24:11.760 been built that that would be easy enough for people 1:24:11.760 --> 1:24:14.599 to use, but there people figured out where we can 1:24:14.680 --> 1:24:17.240 build this layer very quickly make all the money you know, 1:24:17.600 --> 1:24:20.640 so to me, like with with all of the Spotify 1:24:20.920 --> 1:24:23.439 and the kind of lack of hits and everything. It 1:24:23.640 --> 1:24:28.160 is frustrating because I see artists write songs or or 1:24:28.280 --> 1:24:34.040 have songs that are so profoundly good. Um, and I 1:24:34.120 --> 1:24:38.920 also see them be influenced by the news system and 1:24:38.960 --> 1:24:41.360 how like it all works in trying to apply to 1:24:41.400 --> 1:24:45.080 that and like like you're saying it in a great way, 1:24:45.120 --> 1:24:48.360 because when you had hits, Like I'll tell you a 1:24:48.400 --> 1:24:52.200 really random example is Betty Davis Eyes the Kim Karen's 1:24:52.200 --> 1:24:56.679 song Okay, And it's like such a it just sticks 1:24:56.680 --> 1:24:59.839 in your head and is such an amazing beautiful chords 1:24:59.840 --> 1:25:02.040 and the changes, and it's kind of reflective of the 1:25:02.120 --> 1:25:05.960 time of what tracks sounded like and everything. But those 1:25:06.000 --> 1:25:10.120 songs still make so much money and they still resonate, 1:25:11.160 --> 1:25:14.400 you know. And people were writing too to the to 1:25:14.520 --> 1:25:16.519 get hits in a way and it was working. And 1:25:16.560 --> 1:25:20.519 those songs are still out there and still making money 1:25:20.560 --> 1:25:22.639 and still are big hits and people still love them. 1:25:22.720 --> 1:25:25.960 And now and then when now people make records, yeah, 1:25:26.040 --> 1:25:28.439 like they're not writing to have hits, but at the 1:25:28.439 --> 1:25:33.040 same time, I think that they don't. Like it's hard 1:25:33.120 --> 1:25:36.680 to explain this. It's like it's almost like the the 1:25:37.080 --> 1:25:39.960 someone could write that song now and I feel like 1:25:40.000 --> 1:25:42.280 it would resonate just the same as it did in 1:25:42.320 --> 1:25:46.000 the eighties. I mean, but but would it would it 1:25:46.040 --> 1:25:48.760 even connect? Would would it go up the charts? Would 1:25:48.800 --> 1:25:52.360 it get on this Spotify playlist? Like the entire process 1:25:52.760 --> 1:25:57.080 I feel like has has kind of numbed people's concept 1:25:57.120 --> 1:25:59.120 of songwriting and what they should do and what they 1:25:59.120 --> 1:26:03.599 shouldn't do, and and and I don't, you know, I'm 1:26:03.640 --> 1:26:05.400 not really making a lot of sense because I'm just 1:26:05.439 --> 1:26:09.519 doing I just gotta feel like it's it's you know, 1:26:10.360 --> 1:26:13.160 things are changing in a way because it's almost like 1:26:13.240 --> 1:26:16.519 artists don't have hopes of becoming Like when I went 1:26:16.680 --> 1:26:19.680 and moved to l a like Kermit the Frog, my 1:26:19.760 --> 1:26:23.200 dream wasn't to get rich, but the concept was if 1:26:23.240 --> 1:26:26.559 you could do something this type of art, then you 1:26:26.600 --> 1:26:28.519 could go and make a career out of it. And 1:26:28.560 --> 1:26:31.200 you could then go and if you were lucky and 1:26:31.240 --> 1:26:34.280 if you were good, you could go and make a difference. 1:26:34.360 --> 1:26:37.479 You could change, like the way that Trent Resner changed 1:26:37.600 --> 1:26:40.080 my approach and made me really want to play music 1:26:40.640 --> 1:26:43.439 I hoped to do to somebody else, you know, And 1:26:44.080 --> 1:26:48.040 but now like like to buy a five thou dollar 1:26:48.120 --> 1:26:52.160 les Paul's almost out of the question for most artists 1:26:52.360 --> 1:26:55.120 or people starting up, because like you've got to really 1:26:55.160 --> 1:26:58.080 make some serious touring money to really get some serious 1:26:58.120 --> 1:27:01.000 gear and and and it comes. It's so much more 1:27:01.040 --> 1:27:04.679 of a struggle that like there's almost like an anti 1:27:05.840 --> 1:27:08.560 songs that really resonate with people mindset. It's almost this 1:27:08.960 --> 1:27:13.120 kind of like like it's almost cool to to I mean, 1:27:13.200 --> 1:27:16.120 besides obviously like there's certain markets like hip hop and 1:27:16.160 --> 1:27:18.920 some other ones where they're really being innovative and really 1:27:18.960 --> 1:27:23.480 doing stuff that does really resonate and and is experimental 1:27:23.600 --> 1:27:26.680 and cool. But it's almost like like everything else has 1:27:26.760 --> 1:27:28.960 kind of been beaten to death to the point where 1:27:28.960 --> 1:27:32.479 people are kind of trying their hardest, but they know 1:27:32.560 --> 1:27:35.679 they're never gonna, you know, take it to this other level. 1:27:35.760 --> 1:27:38.639 So I don't know, it's it's kind of it's kind 1:27:38.640 --> 1:27:41.160 of heartbreaking to watch. And that's why it's awesome when 1:27:41.200 --> 1:27:44.040 you see somebody breakthrough, like Chris Stapleton, for instance, with 1:27:44.120 --> 1:27:47.120 like no radio play, doing this whole thing that was 1:27:47.200 --> 1:27:50.400 real and just you know what it maybe it just 1:27:50.439 --> 1:27:52.760 took the timber Lake and him on the c m 1:27:52.800 --> 1:27:55.360 A Awards or whatever it was, but like overnight, he's 1:27:55.360 --> 1:27:58.760 selling two million copies of and there's great songs on there. 1:27:59.000 --> 1:28:01.840 But had that not happened, maybe it would have just 1:28:02.160 --> 1:28:04.519 stayed in the lane it was in. I mean maybe 1:28:04.640 --> 1:28:06.640 if that was the moment or whatever, the moment was 1:28:07.080 --> 1:28:09.120 that kind of splash moment. I guess, like what you 1:28:09.160 --> 1:28:11.240 said makes the most sense here is that MTV was 1:28:11.320 --> 1:28:14.759 that you could instantly have that effect if you really 1:28:14.800 --> 1:28:19.680 made it onto these centralized channels and I in Spotify. 1:28:19.760 --> 1:28:21.760 While it is the same kind of thing, it's not. 1:28:22.040 --> 1:28:24.479 You're not a hit overnight on this stuff. You're not. 1:28:24.520 --> 1:28:27.080 You don't go on David Letterman is a comic and 1:28:27.120 --> 1:28:29.040 all of a sudden you're huge in the country. Like now, 1:28:29.040 --> 1:28:31.439 if you go on Colbert and your comic it doesn't 1:28:31.479 --> 1:28:33.559 mean anything, you know what I mean? So, like people, 1:28:33.600 --> 1:28:37.360 the way people digest things has changed so much that 1:28:37.479 --> 1:28:41.000 it almost is affecting the way the songs are made 1:28:41.040 --> 1:28:43.080 and the way songs are written and and all of 1:28:43.120 --> 1:28:45.200 that seems like a really negative thing, but I think 1:28:45.200 --> 1:28:48.599 there will be a turnaround to it. But okay, let's 1:28:48.600 --> 1:28:52.280 say you gave the example of Stapleton and you know 1:28:52.640 --> 1:28:55.519 it's all great, but let's leave him aside. In terms 1:28:55.560 --> 1:29:00.360 of a lower league, the American league, the only person 1:29:00.520 --> 1:29:03.639 who has truly broken through is Jason is Bill. That's right. 1:29:05.680 --> 1:29:10.280 Has another artist not broken through because they're not writing 1:29:10.360 --> 1:29:14.080 Betty Davis size or is the system holding them back? 1:29:16.560 --> 1:29:20.640 You know? I think it's it's like the system perpetuates 1:29:20.680 --> 1:29:24.639 the problem, and then therefore, like the system is holding 1:29:24.680 --> 1:29:30.120 them back, therefore they're not writing the Bettie Davis eye. 1:29:30.160 --> 1:29:33.439 Like somehow it's almost like the the banks, you know, 1:29:33.600 --> 1:29:38.400 like they like corruption perpetuates at the expense of the 1:29:38.400 --> 1:29:41.639 people to the point where like you have, like there's 1:29:41.640 --> 1:29:43.640 a great speech in the movie I Love called Sneakers 1:29:43.720 --> 1:29:47.920 that that that's my favorite movie of all time, the 1:29:48.400 --> 1:29:51.400 Ben Kingsley speech where he's talking about the the kind 1:29:51.400 --> 1:29:55.400 of cycle of corruption and how it perpetuates itself, not 1:29:55.479 --> 1:29:58.000 saying that all this is corruption, but but it kind 1:29:58.000 --> 1:30:00.920 of That's what kind of popped into my mind, was that, 1:30:01.000 --> 1:30:08.240 because it's almost like the problem perpetuates the almost lack 1:30:09.000 --> 1:30:13.160 of confidence and artists in a weird way. Like Isabel 1:30:13.280 --> 1:30:17.040 is a great example because he he's he writes great 1:30:17.120 --> 1:30:20.479 songs that really stick with people. I remember you wrote 1:30:20.479 --> 1:30:22.559 a thing about Jamie Johnson one time, and I loved 1:30:22.560 --> 1:30:25.160 it and it was one of the first me too. 1:30:25.360 --> 1:30:27.240 But he's a great example to me who wrote those 1:30:27.280 --> 1:30:29.760 kind of songs, who writes those kind of songs that 1:30:29.760 --> 1:30:32.680 that really stick in your head and perpetuate its or 1:30:32.720 --> 1:30:37.720 and and and you know, really hooks and beautiful compositions. 1:30:38.280 --> 1:30:40.800 And now he's not writing, you know, like he's in 1:30:40.800 --> 1:30:43.280 a physician, he's not cutting records. And I'm like, like, 1:30:43.640 --> 1:30:47.479 is it the system that that broke Jamie in this situation? 1:30:47.479 --> 1:30:49.439 Because like I want to, I always tell him, I'm 1:30:49.479 --> 1:30:51.280 and me and I have been closed for years, and 1:30:51.320 --> 1:30:54.479 I'm like, please let me do a record on you, please, 1:30:54.520 --> 1:30:57.200 you know, And he and he wants he's writing stuff 1:30:57.200 --> 1:30:59.640 and he's recording stuff. But I don't know why he's that. 1:30:59.760 --> 1:31:01.680 I don't know where he's at with it, and and 1:31:01.720 --> 1:31:03.880 it's his journey and I respect it all the way. 1:31:03.920 --> 1:31:06.559 But like I could use like another one of his 1:31:06.640 --> 1:31:08.960 songs right now, and I think, you know, country music 1:31:09.000 --> 1:31:12.040 could use it. So I wonder is that he has 1:31:12.080 --> 1:31:16.320 that mentally affected him, Has the system having kind of changed, 1:31:17.080 --> 1:31:18.479 like he was in the middle of it while it 1:31:18.560 --> 1:31:22.479 was changing. Has that given him an impression or a 1:31:22.479 --> 1:31:24.320 feeling that he that he just kind of doesn't want 1:31:24.320 --> 1:31:26.680 to jump into this or or you know. And I'm 1:31:26.720 --> 1:31:28.160 not trying to talk out of turn with him because 1:31:28.160 --> 1:31:31.320 he's my buddy. He knows, like I know, he writes 1:31:31.400 --> 1:31:33.519 some of the best songs. He sung some on the 1:31:33.560 --> 1:31:35.160 phone to me over the years that he wrote, and 1:31:35.200 --> 1:31:37.639 he hasn't recorded and put him out. So I'm always 1:31:37.680 --> 1:31:42.040 like why and is it? What is the you know, 1:31:42.160 --> 1:31:44.840 everyone's gonna love it, Like why, like please do it? 1:31:44.920 --> 1:31:47.840 You know, And I just sometimes wonder is it. Is 1:31:47.880 --> 1:31:54.960 it just the environment that kind of discourages certain artists 1:31:55.000 --> 1:31:57.160 I don't know, you know, But then you have people 1:31:57.200 --> 1:32:00.800 like you said, like like Jason Nisbel who fought and 1:32:00.840 --> 1:32:03.519 fought and came from all these different areas, and that 1:32:03.600 --> 1:32:08.040 cuts this really there are different you know, his experiences, 1:32:08.320 --> 1:32:10.800 and it cuts this really intimate record after he finds 1:32:10.800 --> 1:32:13.439 a sobriety and it really hooks people and other people 1:32:13.439 --> 1:32:17.160 start covering his work and it's just and and to me, 1:32:17.760 --> 1:32:21.559 he's a great example of where true songwriting and talent 1:32:21.680 --> 1:32:26.040 meet and and really resonates with people you know, and 1:32:26.040 --> 1:32:28.200 and you have that and then you have like other 1:32:28.240 --> 1:32:30.160 guys who I don't even know any of their music 1:32:30.360 --> 1:32:34.080 in country or something that are selling out like massive arenas, 1:32:34.160 --> 1:32:37.880 And I'm like, I don't get it, And I know 1:32:38.000 --> 1:32:41.680 people aren't dumb. I have faith in people like the 1:32:41.720 --> 1:32:45.640 average person. I think that they they get conditioned and 1:32:45.680 --> 1:32:48.000 trained to a certain thing, But I don't think that 1:32:49.000 --> 1:32:52.760 people don't have emotional feelings for music. Like again, if 1:32:53.280 --> 1:32:55.400 if Bendy David's Eyes came out and it was right 1:32:55.439 --> 1:32:58.519 next to like something really corny out there, I feel 1:32:58.520 --> 1:33:00.400 like someone would be like, man, that's a eight song, 1:33:00.439 --> 1:33:02.200 and like it would really hit them, you know. But 1:33:02.479 --> 1:33:05.880 people aren't writing those songs anymore. And it's even like 1:33:05.880 --> 1:33:07.640 like I was listening to Tina Turner. I was going 1:33:07.640 --> 1:33:09.599 through a bunch of Tina Turner and that she's such 1:33:09.720 --> 1:33:13.200 got so many great songs people wrote, whether it be 1:33:13.240 --> 1:33:15.680 even all the back to like Nutbush City Limits all 1:33:15.680 --> 1:33:17.400 the way to like simply the Best, And I was like, 1:33:17.960 --> 1:33:20.120 do you feel like if somebody wrote simply the Best, 1:33:20.640 --> 1:33:24.840 like Chris Stapleton wrote that and cut it, it would 1:33:24.880 --> 1:33:26.600 be huge. It would be as big as it was 1:33:26.680 --> 1:33:29.439 when she did it, you know what I mean? And 1:33:29.479 --> 1:33:32.040 you know, so, so I don't know, I don't have 1:33:32.080 --> 1:33:35.439 an answer. I think Americana definitely, like you said, it 1:33:35.560 --> 1:33:40.240 definitely is like a section in the store where you know, 1:33:40.360 --> 1:33:42.000 you can go over there and you can almost pick 1:33:42.040 --> 1:33:44.960 anything and you're gonna get something that that is meaningfully 1:33:45.000 --> 1:33:48.720 written and and thought out and thoughtful music. You know. 1:33:48.840 --> 1:33:51.320 So in that way, it's a great thing to have 1:33:51.439 --> 1:33:54.720 that access to. But how does that cut through? How 1:33:54.760 --> 1:33:57.040 do you know, how does that cut through all the noise? 1:33:57.080 --> 1:33:59.439 There's so much noise now, So I just I just 1:33:59.520 --> 1:34:01.400 kind of wonder. I think we're in an evolution that 1:34:01.479 --> 1:34:03.639 will it's going to solve itself. And I think there's 1:34:03.680 --> 1:34:06.960 a lot of problems that people don't know were problems yet. 1:34:07.000 --> 1:34:10.679 But as technology and collectively as a culture, we start 1:34:10.720 --> 1:34:13.960 to become more aware. Like things like bitcoin are like wait, 1:34:14.040 --> 1:34:17.479 like that's become mainstream so quickly that I think people 1:34:17.479 --> 1:34:20.679 are going to start becoming aware of what has been 1:34:20.680 --> 1:34:23.400 going on with the Internet experience for them, and that 1:34:23.520 --> 1:34:26.160 might change the rules for Apple and Spotify, which I 1:34:26.200 --> 1:34:28.280 really hope it does. You know, when somebody wakes up 1:34:28.280 --> 1:34:30.600 and realizes, hey, like if there was a system in 1:34:30.640 --> 1:34:34.639 place with like cryptocurrency that was direct where you could 1:34:34.640 --> 1:34:37.760 still get music just as easily as you did. But 1:34:37.920 --> 1:34:40.680 now every time you play it, the artists, all the 1:34:40.720 --> 1:34:44.280 people that are supposed to get the cuts, producers, band members, whatever, 1:34:44.320 --> 1:34:47.960 would get payouts like every time somebody played their song instantly. 1:34:48.000 --> 1:34:51.919 That could totally be done. The infrastructures there, and Spotify 1:34:51.960 --> 1:34:53.720 wouldn't be taking a billion dollars of it, you know, 1:34:53.760 --> 1:34:55.840 and not to keep ripping them. I mean, look, they 1:34:55.880 --> 1:34:57.840 got they were smart, is what they are, you know, 1:34:57.880 --> 1:35:01.599 on ahead of the curve. But but like the infrastructures there, 1:35:01.600 --> 1:35:04.120 and eventually I think it will happen. When that happens, 1:35:04.120 --> 1:35:06.280 it might we might get back to that place where 1:35:06.280 --> 1:35:11.240 where there's a real future in in um in you know, 1:35:11.400 --> 1:35:17.280 in art, like movie like books got decimated. Music had 1:35:17.320 --> 1:35:21.080 the books as a running start, but it was too 1:35:21.120 --> 1:35:23.799 quick for them. They got decimated too. And then movies 1:35:23.840 --> 1:35:26.000 have been sitting back going, okay, we watched books, we 1:35:26.040 --> 1:35:29.719 want we watched this. Let's let's not let that happen 1:35:29.720 --> 1:35:32.559 to us. And even with like the Netflix, they've still 1:35:32.600 --> 1:35:35.759 figured out a model that works that better and didn't 1:35:35.760 --> 1:35:39.679 like totally decimate the industry, you know, but who knows. 1:35:40.760 --> 1:35:42.479 You know, I don't want to get a long discussion 1:35:42.479 --> 1:35:44.599 of this because soft topic. But I don't have you know, 1:35:44.640 --> 1:35:49.120 I think Spotify is not the enemy. They take of 1:35:49.160 --> 1:35:52.440 the overall pie. They have to pay all their expenses 1:35:52.600 --> 1:35:55.439 and it doesn't scale where people go on they have 1:35:55.479 --> 1:35:58.519 to pay. And historically, as you talked, now, it would 1:35:58.520 --> 1:36:01.400 be great if there was the blockchain and everything was direct. 1:36:01.880 --> 1:36:04.559 This is an opaque business and everybody involved other than 1:36:04.560 --> 1:36:07.360 the artist likes it that way. So you know, the 1:36:07.400 --> 1:36:12.320 English hearing said, the real problem is the labels themselves. 1:36:12.360 --> 1:36:15.800 But the other thing I must say is a lot 1:36:15.840 --> 1:36:21.280 of people complaining about lack of success were either in 1:36:21.400 --> 1:36:24.519 the old system, benefit from the old system, or still 1:36:24.520 --> 1:36:27.600 in that headspace when they made records a year and 1:36:27.600 --> 1:36:30.759 you're in a major label, you think you can still 1:36:30.840 --> 1:36:35.679 tour based on that promotion, whereas today there's sixty thousand 1:36:35.720 --> 1:36:40.599 tracks a day, so just getting noticed is hard. So 1:36:40.640 --> 1:36:44.120 when someone says, hey, you know I play music, I'm 1:36:44.120 --> 1:36:47.640 making any money? Well, okay, let's look at the Spotify. 1:36:47.720 --> 1:36:51.759 Think how many people are listening to you? Not that many. 1:36:51.800 --> 1:36:54.439 And the other thing is, prior to Spotify, you wouldn't 1:36:54.439 --> 1:36:56.840 be in the music business at all. I don't want 1:36:56.840 --> 1:36:59.960 to beat up on those people because you can transfer 1:37:00.080 --> 1:37:07.200 between these elements overnight. Grandy, but the interesting you think, 1:37:07.240 --> 1:37:10.440 you say, especially with Jamie Johnson within Color had incredible 1:37:10.479 --> 1:37:14.240 success on you know, an artistic success as well commercial success. 1:37:14.560 --> 1:37:20.120 And when you're talking about um, the overall state impacting 1:37:20.320 --> 1:37:23.759 the quality of the art, that's fascinating. For for twelve 1:37:23.880 --> 1:37:27.559 or fourteen years, we debated technology that's been figured out. 1:37:27.560 --> 1:37:29.840 We live in an on demand society. Ever you get 1:37:29.880 --> 1:37:32.400 your music, you're gonna get it on demand. So I 1:37:32.479 --> 1:37:35.280 agree with you. We're focusing on the software, i e. 1:37:35.479 --> 1:37:39.200 The music right now, and it will work itself out. 1:37:39.800 --> 1:37:43.759 It's just that we're in a crazy talk. Yeah, I agree, 1:37:43.920 --> 1:37:46.559 And I think we're in that like wild West period 1:37:46.600 --> 1:37:51.280 of of of everything socially solving. I mean, I don't 1:37:51.320 --> 1:37:53.040 mean like in the world. I mean just like in 1:37:53.160 --> 1:37:56.439 music and an art It just just the entire system 1:37:57.240 --> 1:38:00.519 was so shaken by the Internet. The entire world was 1:38:00.560 --> 1:38:03.640 so shaken up by the Internet that I think it's it. 1:38:03.800 --> 1:38:06.280 We're still about ten years away from it being solved, 1:38:06.320 --> 1:38:08.439 all of these problems. But I do agree with you. 1:38:08.479 --> 1:38:12.080 I think you know, it's easy to blame Spotify and 1:38:12.120 --> 1:38:15.120 to blame Apple Music, but at the end of the day, 1:38:15.160 --> 1:38:19.439 they were just first to create a system which would 1:38:19.479 --> 1:38:22.800 allow the average person to be able to listen to 1:38:22.800 --> 1:38:24.840 all this music and the straining platform and do it 1:38:24.880 --> 1:38:27.920 in a way. With the new model, nobody's gonna want 1:38:27.920 --> 1:38:30.120 to pay per song, just like nobody's gonna want to 1:38:30.120 --> 1:38:32.559 pay for movie. You know. It's like that's why they 1:38:32.600 --> 1:38:35.880 gotta put every movie out on HBO Max and one thing, 1:38:35.920 --> 1:38:39.360 and they do the deal with HBO Max as opposed 1:38:39.400 --> 1:38:43.760 to asking people to to buy a copy of it 1:38:43.800 --> 1:38:47.400 every time. You know, So who knows and any of 1:38:47.400 --> 1:38:49.400 that listen, I can talk to you for days. You're 1:38:49.439 --> 1:38:53.719 a very warm, loquacious person, quite the rack and tour, 1:38:53.760 --> 1:38:56.200 and I can see why you're successful. But you're a 1:38:56.320 --> 1:39:00.120 very likable guy and whatever history that's in the your 1:39:00.200 --> 1:39:03.559 view mirror as far as I'm concerned. So thanks so 1:39:03.680 --> 1:39:06.000 much for taking the time to talk to me. Hey man, 1:39:06.400 --> 1:39:09.280 it's really an honor. And I think, like I just 1:39:09.520 --> 1:39:12.800 I just admire what you do and I love your 1:39:12.840 --> 1:39:17.519 words that I love your perspective, and it's almost like 1:39:17.640 --> 1:39:20.639 there's very few trusted sources anymore, but you're one of those, 1:39:20.680 --> 1:39:22.920 and I get you. Wouldn't believe how many people like 1:39:23.000 --> 1:39:26.639 I subscribe to your letter. But before I did, people 1:39:26.640 --> 1:39:29.240 would send me your letters about different topics that you 1:39:29.520 --> 1:39:31.880 do this, you know, check this out. And I don't 1:39:31.880 --> 1:39:35.120 even remember whatever the issue was, and I'm sure it 1:39:35.160 --> 1:39:37.680 was something stupid, and it was about country music as that, 1:39:38.360 --> 1:39:40.200 I don't know what I thought I was talking about. 1:39:40.240 --> 1:39:43.920 I have no idea, but uh, but like it's very insightful, 1:39:44.080 --> 1:39:47.599 very intelligent, and you ask really important questions and you 1:39:47.600 --> 1:39:50.240 you bring up really important issues. So to be able 1:39:50.280 --> 1:39:52.519 to meet you and be face to face and talk 1:39:52.560 --> 1:39:54.799 about this stuff to me is just it's a highlight. 1:39:54.880 --> 1:39:56.880 So I really appreciate it. And I hope maybe one 1:39:56.960 --> 1:39:58.920 day we can meet up in town and and have 1:39:58.960 --> 1:40:01.040 dinner or something. You know, I would love to do that. 1:40:01.240 --> 1:40:04.839 When this aw this COVID craziness is history. Yeah, I'm 1:40:04.880 --> 1:40:07.080 ready to get back into the real l A scene. 1:40:07.320 --> 1:40:09.840 So Shooter, thanks again so much for doing this. Thank 1:40:09.880 --> 1:40:12.280 you so much. Have a great day, man, you bet. 1:40:12.360 --> 1:40:14.880 Until next time, Bob se