WEBVTT - Hacking Pharmaceuticals with The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.360 Hey, everybody, welcome to it could happen here. I am 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:09.360 Robert Evans, and this is the show where we talk 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:11.559 about how everything is kind of falling apart and how 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.080 we might put it back together again in a way 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.279 that works better than it did before UM, or do 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.439 something different that is even anyway. Whatever. It's a show 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:23.960 about the future and about the messed up present UM 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:25.520 And as a result of that, one of the things 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.120 we talk about a lot is self sufficiency. We've had 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:30.680 a number of episodes kind of covering the values of 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.919 like replacing your lawn with food, guerilla gardening, that sort 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.159 of stuff. And one of the critiques we get is 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.279 people saying, well, you know, that's never gonna work on 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.360 a large scale. It's never going to replace industrial agriculture 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.520 or whatever. And that's perfectly true. But the point we're 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.199 going for here and why we encourage these kind of 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:52.120 resilience building activities is because they do improve the ability 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.680 of communities to resist when they need to resist, and 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:59.240 also provide opportunities by which people can reimagine their relationship to, 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.000 for example, all the food supply chain, or reimagine the 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:04.360 relationship to their community, and the kind of things that 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.640 communities provide for each other rather than having them shipped 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.319 in by Amazon. UM. And when we start talking about that, 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:15.280 when we start talking about improving community resiliency for things like, 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.480 you know, a general strike or even potentially more radical stuff. 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.760 One of the big issues that any community has to 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.880 confront is not just food, but medicine. I'm I do, 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:27.760 and I'm sure a lot of other people have friends 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:33.040 who cannot survive without medications that are very like reliant 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.320 upon existing supply chains UM and to some extent, even 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.640 the stability of the government, you know, UM, getting your insulin, 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:44.720 getting your medication for whatever kind of disease you have 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.200 that that needs constant medication. There's a bunch of different 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:51.080 reasons why people are reliant upon the medical um supply 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.400 lines and upon the kind of pharmaceutical industry. And that's 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.480 one of the big when we talk about building more 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.280 resilient communities, one of the big hurdles to jump. Well. Today, 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:04.000 my guest is someone who is working on bridging some 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:07.120 of these problems. UM. His name is Michael Lawfer, and 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.839 he is the founder of an organization called the Four 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.480 Thieves Vinegar Collective. They are bio hackers UM, and they 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:20.600 are working on cracking certain pharmaceutical medications to allow individuals 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.960 with resources that are generally available to people who are 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:31.320 not rich or pharmaceutical companies UM to produce life saving medications. UM. 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:33.400 The number one thing you would have heard of from 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.359 four Thieves is the EPI pencil, which we'll talk about 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:38.480 it a bit. But first, Michael, thank you for coming 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.680 on the show. Thanks so much for having me. It's 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.920 exciting to be able to shot and talk with you 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.240 and all the people surrounding you who are trying to 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.400 just unfunned things a little bit. Yeah, yeah, and I 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:55.520 most of the conversation I want to have today is 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.880 on the unfucking of things variety. But I do think 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:01.360 we should start with a little bit technical talk first. 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.760 Can you give people an idea of what kind of 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.040 medications you and other people in the collective have figured 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.960 out how to produce UM and what kind of resources 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.240 and individual needs to be able to do some of 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:19.480 this stuff. Sure. So, from a technical perspective, most of 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.120 the things that we focus on are what's called small 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:28.680 molecule chemistry, and to kind of describe that blanketly, if 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.200 you can draw the molecule in a cocktail napkin. It 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:34.200 probably qualifies as a small molecule if it's one of 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.520 these things that like, you know, if you look at 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.480 the diagram for the molecules approaching, it's got big ribbons 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.440 that are colored and stuff that's a that's a biochemic thing, 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:47.520 and it's a whole different set of problems. Now, the 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:57.000 mean focide that we've had have been surrounding access to abortion, 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:04.640 access to hive medications, access to hepatitis C medications, and 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.720 access to reversal of jug overdose medications. So that's been 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:10.920 sort of our main focus, but there's been a handful 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.480 of others. The things that we tend to look for 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:18.440 our where are there things that there's a great need 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.480 and there's a huge barrier, And so you see those 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:27.039 in those places a lot, because the three main barriers 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.560 that tend to pop up between somebody and access to 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:35.440 the medication they need are either price or legality or 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:41.320 lack of infrastructure. And typically the weirdness that comes up 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:50.880 mostly surrounds price because of intellectual property laws and marginalization 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:55.880 of people who suffer from particular ailments or seem to 0:04:55.920 --> 0:05:00.320 suffer predominantly from particular ailments. And so if you're if 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.680 you're poor, and you're in a class of people that 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.720 is seen as something not to be cared about because 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:11.919 they're not a strong voter base, then the ability to 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:16.680 move access away from those people and put in more 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:24.159 barriers and raise prices becomes easier to defend. UM. So 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:32.440 the first drug that we focused on was a an 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:43.360 anti parasitic um. Toxoplasmosis is a parasite that's pretty innocuous 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.560 for most people anybody when you get from cats, right 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:48.960 or is this not Gandhi? It is. It is the 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.440 one you get from cats, and it's really fascinating parasite 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.440 too if if if you ever dig into the behavioral 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.479 biology of it, it's really really fascinating parasite. UM, I 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:01.039 probably have it. Yeah, I have three cats. I definitely 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:05.080 have it. So and so it's not a big deal 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:07.919 for those people, but if you have a massively compromised 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.039 immune system, especially with people with HIV or advanced stages 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.320 of cancer, and that's why it was labeled sort of 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.440 you know HIV drug, it's not it's a it's an 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:20.279 anti parasitic, but it's used almost exclusively by people who 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:25.440 are an advanced stages of cancer. Uh, people with fairly 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.760 compromised immune systems from HIV or something else, and then 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:33.159 pregnant women. Um, And it's not that big deal. If 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:37.400 you have access to the medication, you can merely take 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:41.760 it and eradicates from body. Uh. The difference was is 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.000 that something that was a short course of treatment you 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:50.039 take I think for um, you know, four doses the 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:55.839 first time around, and then one dose each day subsequently 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.440 for something like ten days. Um, And that's not a 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.960 big deal when each dose each was about thirteen and 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:03.560 a half dollars. And then Martin cry jacked up the 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:08.600 price to seven fifty a pill, and so we're like, well, 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:10.760 this is ridiculous. So that was the first one that 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.960 we went after. Then of course access to abortion drugs, um, 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.600 that's a big one. That's pretty topical lately. We released 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:21.560 a video maybe three months ago on how you can 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.760 make your own abortion pills without too much fuss. This 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:29.040 would be mythopristone, right, Uh, mithopristone and Mr Pristall. So 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:34.080 you can do it with just Mr Purstall, or you 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.800 can do it in combination. And when you do it 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:42.559 with just the one with just miso, you have about 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.160 an eighty five percent chance of it working. And if 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.680 you have both, they bumps it up to about and 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:51.840 what is the like what when you're doing this? And 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:53.520 we'll talk a little bit with the hardware, but like 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.880 what is the re agent that you have for this? 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:57.600 Because I know that's been a big part of some 0:07:57.640 --> 0:07:59.680 of the discussions is like how do you get the 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:01.920 thing as you make the medicines from which is easier 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.800 for some than it is for others. Sure, there are 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:09.080 a couple different ways that you google about that. The 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:11.680 the interesting but more difficult way, of course, is to 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:16.280 do the chemistry from scratch, where like you say, get 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.680 access from the agents, you do some chemistry, and you 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:24.120 end up with the active pharmaceutical ingredient, which we lovingly 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:26.320 referred to as the API, and then you package it 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:31.520 somehow into a tablet or a pill or or some 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:40.600 other means of ingress into the body. Um. The instructions 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:47.720 that we distributed skip the difficult part because mr. Pristal 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:55.280 is an ulcer medication, and so for instance, if you 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.600 have access to Mexico or are in Mexico, it's kind 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.480 of not a big deal because as an ulcer medication, 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.760 it's over the counter, and you can just go in 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.880 and say, oh, you know, my grandmother can't get out 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.600 of bed. She needs this ulcer medication. I need just 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.640 a little bit of it to get her through the weekend. Um, 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:19.480 and then no problem. Uh. Not so easy in places 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.959 where it's a little more controlled, like the US. However, 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:33.679 one amazing trick when looking for medicines, access to medicines 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:40.560 that are generally blocked from people that the existing power 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.560 structure tries to disenfranchise from access is you look and 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:50.320 see if it's similarly used for other classes of person 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.800 or being that the infrastructure does care about. So interestingly, 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.400 you look for ulcer medication, you say, well, like, who 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.800 else has ulcers that you know, people might think are 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.800 important people. That doesn't really come up, and there are 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:08.520 other ulster medications are a little bit better. However, there 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.760 are a lot of really wealthy people in the United States, 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:16.520 and really wealthy people tend to keep horses and horses 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:25.320 interestingly um or something or maybe more some ungodly percentage 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:31.680 of domesticated horses have ulcers. UM. Now why that is 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:36.400 I'm not entirely clear about, but my own theory is 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.840 that it has something to do with taking a gigantic 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.600 wild animal and putting it into a very small box 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.160 for most of its life. Yeah, it doesn't seem like 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:49.000 the thing that horses evolved to do. Yeah. So, so 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:53.320 that said, people who are horse owners typically have to 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.000 treat them constantly for ulcers, and the best thing for 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:01.720 that is Mr. Perstal. And so you can get Mr. 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:07.640 Crystall powder in a tub from places that, yeah, feedstore 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:09.840 or something. Yeah, I go to a feed store every week. 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.200 I'm sure I could buy a bucket of this ship probably, 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.559 So it comes in tubs. And the other thing that's 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:17.439 great about it coming in a tub is that it's 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:22.560 already in with a buffer. Part of the thing about Mr. 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.719 Crystall is that the dosages in micrograms, and that's very 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.120 hard to weigh unless you have a really high precision scale. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.040 Even your good drug dealers generally don't have a scale 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.319 that can do that. Right. So, but the magic is, 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.600 this isn't a tub with a bunch of inert powder, 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:43.440 and it's it's already mixed up to be homogeneous. And 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:44.880 so what you can do is you can do a 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:49.160 little bit of back of the envelope arithmetic, and you 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.120 can measure out much larger quantities and know how much 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.920 active ingredients you have and then pack that into a tablet. 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.600 Now yeah, um, I mean that makes so much sense. 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:07.160 And it's also like like the you have kind of 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.280 the dark side and light side version. It's kind of 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.440 the light side version of all of those people buying 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.000 up ivermectin for for nonsense. It's like, well, no, there's 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:21.599 reasons to buy, you know, like, uh, livestock medication especially. Um. 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:23.559 I mean, I have a lot of friends who took 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.719 fishing antibiotics back in the day, and this is kind 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.880 of a much more um using it in a much 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:33.320 more rigorous way to provide people with something that can 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.559 is getting it will be getting increasingly difficult to access 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.040 in a lot of parts of the country. Yeah, it's 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.960 just such a smart way of approaching it, I think. Yeah. 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.960 And one of the things that becomes philosophically a bit 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:53.199 sticky is when you end up talking about the importance 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:59.920 of independent management of one's own health and decision making 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:04.320 not coming from above. There's this difficult moment that I've 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:08.720 had kind of having to cop to the reality that 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.319 if you're building mechanisms to empower people to have access 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:19.280 to make decisions about managing their own health. H Part 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:26.160 of that entails realizing that that will also lead to 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:30.720 a lot of people making what I might think are 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:35.080 bad decisions, but that the important thing is that it 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.560 doesn't matter what I think. That people should not be 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.439 controlled by other people, and if they make bad decisions, 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.839 that sucks, and hopefully we can help that, but not 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:54.880 not lamenting the importance of or not not backtracking, not 0:13:55.000 --> 0:14:01.720 having some sort of retrograde about offering more access even 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:07.800 if people misuse that access to the miss manage their 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:12.360 own health. Mismanagement of health happens no matter what right. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:16.280 It happens constantly, and people will ignore things that seem 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.280 like they're bigger problems and don't get them addressed. And 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.280 so I have to sort of retreat into this idea 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:26.520 that more access to more tools is better and that's 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.480 just the way of it. And yeah, the problem, yeah, 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.160 I mean, the problem with ivermectin isn't the problem. The 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.680 problem is that that people have access to ivermectin, and 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:36.600 so they're taking it in a way that is harmful 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.520 to them. The problem is that people have been have 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:43.120 have been blinded by disinformation and so are making a 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.360 horrible health care decision. The fact that they have it's 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.680 possessed to veterinary medication is fine, right, exactly, And and 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:52.920 it's and it's interesting that you say that because I 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.600 have a friend of Doctors Without Borders and they are 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.120 starting a couple of pretty strong programs to try and 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:08.040 combat misinformation, because just from a metric standpoint, they look 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.280 for sort of like, what's killing the greatest number of 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.480 people at the greatest rate in the worst way, And 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:15.800 currently the thing that's killing the most people in the 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:20.960 worst way at the greatest rate is misinformation. So yeah, 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.880 that's that's really the great danger. And one of the 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.440 things I found really interesting about kind of what you 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.960 all have been doing because obviously the question of how 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.000 to fight the misinformation in the medical sphere is a 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.560 much larger conversation without simple answers. When it comes to 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.760 a question like, oh, hey, this pharmaceutical company jacked up 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.280 the price by what seven for this necessary medication for 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:46.000 people a lot of people who have HIV UM What 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:48.080 are we The solution to that is simple, You find 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:49.880 a way for them to get it without paying hundreds 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.920 and hundreds of dollars per dose. UM the question. Some 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.160 of the work you all have done is with very 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.040 uh mass needed products like the the mythopres don't like 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.000 the epipencil um, where there's large numbers of people who 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:05.320 need it. But a lot of what I think, one 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:06.760 of the things I think is really cool is y'all 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:11.080 are also working on hacking medications that are very niche like, 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.640 very very few people have this particular disease, and so 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:18.160 the medication is the costs as much as a fully 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.880 loaded Toyota tacoma, you know, in order to sometimes far 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.600 worse than that. Because of this Orphan Drug Act that 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.960 got past in the US and equivalence that exists in 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:34.720 other places, you have all of these allowances that are 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:39.600 granted to people who invent I put in air quotes 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.560 m because really they just purchase the rights to it 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:53.040 um these these orphan drugs where when you talk about controls, 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:59.800 it's kind of the most tragic incidents of that entire 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.480 because what's happening is you've got somebody who has a 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:08.359 very rare disease, and in many cases you have something 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.560 that's the difference between somebody who just cannot function and 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.080 they're dealing with their life kind of moment to moment 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:21.120 there they're mostly cared for, and if they have access 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.600 to a particular medication, then they can go through life 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.640 in a fairly normal sort of way where they don't 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.840 need to be an assisted living, where that they can 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:36.000 do sort of basic things for themselves, and that that 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.200 seems so much more predatory. I mean, it's important, of course, 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:42.960 you know, to look at things with that macro lens 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:44.800 as well and say what can what can do a 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.240 lot of good for a lot of people. But then 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.560 the sort of micro ethical lens needs to come out 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:53.440 from time to time and say, all right, well here's 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.280 something that only affects a few hundred thousand people across 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:01.119 the world. But these are people who can just go 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:06.040 through life normally if only they had access to a 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:09.440 little bit of medicine. And the only reason they don't 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:15.360 is because of misplaced average or all averice is misplaced 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:20.639 because yeah, and you're you're you're providing individuals or a 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.600 way for people to to help individuals who have this 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.240 problem and who can't couldn't possibly afford this because they 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.080 don't have health care or something a way to deal 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:34.000 with these illnesses. Um and oftentimes like even even people 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:38.000 who are ensured get the medication that they need or 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:43.240 don't get an affordable rate because it's not seen as critical. Yeah, 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.080 it's like, oh, well there's a there's a solution that's 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:48.520 not as good, but it's much less expensive. So that's 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.360 the only thing we're going to cover. And so yeah, 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:54.040 and you're saying, well, it should be your decision whether 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.960 or not this is something you want to treat this way, 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:00.320 and we're this is a way if you, you know, 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.239 have access, this is a way for you to kind of, 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.359 as you've been saying, like take your health care and 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.000 your ability to get medication into your own hands and 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.440 produce the things that you need without needing to beg 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:18.600 an insurance company or go fund me eight dollars or whatever. Yeah, 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.480 does go fund me to break my heart so much. Yeah, 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.679 it's especially when people say, oh, look, how great somebody 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.760 got the money that they needed, and I say, look, 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:32.080 I am happy that people get healthcare, but this should 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:36.040 be entirely unnecessary. And the fact that this comes up 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.680 is criminal. Yeah, we can, we can as a species 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.240 produce this ship for less than the cost of like 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.400 a lamp, you know, Like, why why don't why isn't 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.880 this available? Um now, I And that's what I think 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.280 is kind of so powerful about what y'all are doing, 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.760 And is that so so often we kind of get 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.399 stuck in this like the horror of how bad health 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.800 care is, of how funked up the pharmaceutical industry is, 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:04.920 and then we get our relief from that in these 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.000 stories of people like crowdfunding so they can get their medication. 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:11.280 And what you're saying is, well, what's actually much more 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.439 inspiring than that is people just making finding ways to 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:16.480 make what they need. Um. Again, the kind of the 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.919 most popular popular is the wrong word. The most press 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.280 y'all have received, I think is for the epipencil, which 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.719 is an EpiPen is a device that you take that 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.600 is used when people are going into anaphylactic shock, which 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:30.560 is when they have an allergic reaction that will kill 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:35.280 them if untreated. Generally, UM and it you injected into 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.720 your muscles or generally, like an EpiPen does the injecting, 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.320 you just kind of put it in place. Um and 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.160 it it is a life saving medication when people need it. 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.679 It's the choice between that and death. UM. And they 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.560 are very expensive. There is a company that owns the 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:52.600 patent because of how the EpiPen actually does the injecting. 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.120 The actual medicine is very cheap and very easy to make, 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.960 but it's unbelievably expensive and people die as a result 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:03.280 of lack lack of access. UM, and you've provided a 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.320 way using both kinds of this thing called a bio 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.400 lab that people You've developed plans that people can build 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.080 it for themselves in order to make this, and also 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:15.040 using a three D printer, you can make UM an epipencil, 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:17.680 which is a little less kind of a more analog version. 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.120 I think, I guess you'd say, uh, no, it's it's 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:22.960 it's equivalent. It's equivalent. It works the same way. The 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:27.520 things that are different about it that UM are critical. 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:29.520 The first one that you mentioned, of course, is that 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:32.440 you can you can build it for a little over 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.520 thirty dollars US, and you can reload it for about 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:42.199 three dollars, unlike the EpiPen, which is I think it's 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:47.600 about fifty dollars for yeah, UM, and that might be 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:53.680 for a pair, but even so to UM. But the 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:59.560 other two critical differences are that EpiPens are single use, 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:06.520 so you can't test whether it's faulty or not until 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:12.159 you use it, And there have been a lot of failures. 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.400 In fact, there was a big EpiPen recall a bunch 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:19.639 of years ago, and there were just these tragic, tragic stories. 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.520 Some guy had to watch his little kid die. He 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:27.080 had had a pair of EpiPens. The kid went into shock. 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.400 He used it, the thing failed, He brought the other one. 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:32.479 The other one failed, and they're in the air and 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:34.960 you can't land in fifteen minutes and the little kid died, 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:37.600 which just and I'm sure there are dozens of dozens 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:39.280 of stories like that, that just happens to be one 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:43.000 of the ones I know. So one of the things 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:45.800 that's great about the epipencils because you're putting it together 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.000 yourself and it only takes four parts, you can test it. 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:52.800 You can make sure that it works as many times 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:55.000 as you need to. You can dry running with saline 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.440 and just double check that it does what it's supposed 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:05.600 to um and so it's safer. So the fact that 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:09.600 it's you can control yourself, you can reload it, and 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:14.240 you can test it. All these things fix a lot 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:19.000 of these immediate problems that come with and it still 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:22.359 has the benefit that everybody wants from the EpiPen, which 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:27.840 is that it doesn't require um, you know, measurement or 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:33.560 like knowing how deep to press the needle before you 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:36.040 depress the plunger. All of that happens automatically, and it 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:39.520 happens very quickly. UM. And yeah, we as you say, 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:42.960 we've got a lot of pressed for that because essentially 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:46.080 a good timing. We've released at the same time that 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.160 Heather Brush was lying to Congress about why they hit 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:54.280 raised the price on the EpiPens and then so it 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:58.360 was in the public eye. Yeah, and and that's that's 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:01.560 a huge one, being able to produce that because that 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:03.880 is I mean, there's a tremendous number of people who 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:08.760 rely on UH EpiPens um and and I think the 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:13.960 potential of that project is staggering UM. And there's some 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.320 there's some you know, we when we talk about kind 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:18.320 of the different people who are who are working on 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.359 similar problems to you, there's also a group of people 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:23.760 who are working on UM cracking insulin, being able to 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:26.960 produce insulin UM. And Yeah, the Open Insulin project is 0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:31.560 an amazing group of people, incredibly important. They're yeah, they're 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:37.960 working on mm hmm probably the largest scale public health crisis. 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:41.080 I mean in terms of queries that we get. I 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:43.760 think we get people asking about insulin more than anything else. 0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:47.760 And I always say, oh, yeah, they're very, very bright 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:49.680 people already work around this. Go talk to the open 0:24:49.720 --> 0:25:02.800 insulin um and and they're just amazing. I want to 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:04.720 move on because I want to talk about kind of 0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:08.199 the more um philosophical dimensions of some of this. But 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:11.239 before we get into that, i'd like to so, like, 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:12.679 you know, one of the things you and I've been 0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:14.760 talking about a little bit behind the scenes is I 0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:18.080 am not a technically savvy person, but I'm I want 0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:20.600 to try and i'd like to be able to like 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:23.320 produce an epipencil. I want to like understand this it 0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:26.960 kind of and and potentially be able to contribute UM 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:30.520 in a more direct sense, in part because I'm curious, 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:33.919 like how how doable actually is this? For I consider 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:35.879 myself a pretty normal person when it comes to like 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:39.399 technical understanding, right, Like, I'm reasonably handy, but I'm not 0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:42.159 I'm not a chemist. I'm not a I'm not a 0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:45.240 I haven't really I have no I have no prior 0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:48.399 experience three D printing or anything like that, what is 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:52.240 what is required in terms of financial investment, and what 0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:54.440 is kind of your general estimate in terms of time 0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:58.600 to get up to you know, a kind of the 0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:01.560 level where you can start learning how to do some 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:05.119 of this stuff. I think the barrier to entry is 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:10.320 pretty low, depending on how you want to start. As 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:14.959 I said, there are different avenues to doing it. You can, 0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:17.600 of course one of the one of the greatest hacks. 0:26:17.680 --> 0:26:20.400 If if anybody listening this doesn't pick up anything else, 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:24.080 here's the best hack in terms of getting access to medication. 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:27.399 You have a medication you don't have access to for 0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:32.119 whatever reason, assuming it comes in a capsule form, you 0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:35.960 can merely go to a chemical supplier, purchase the active 0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:40.240 pharmaceutical ingredient, wait out, put it into a capsule, and 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:43.919 you've made your medication. That's a very simple thing, you know. 0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:46.240 That takes nothing more than being able to read a 0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:49.679 scale and scooping powder into a little you know, capsules. 0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:54.600 The next step up, there are things that you can do. 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:56.160 They're a little more involved. If you want to build 0:26:56.160 --> 0:27:00.240 an epic pencil, again, this is three or four hearts, 0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:04.040 depending on how you count. You take the needle from 0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:07.399 one syringe needle set on you put it onto a 0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:09.680 different syringe needle set, and then you put it into 0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:14.639 this auto injector, this design for needle phobic diabetics. You 0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:18.240 load it with the up and ron and you close 0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:22.560 it up and you're done. Then if you want to 0:27:22.640 --> 0:27:25.479 step into this a little bit further, if something is 0:27:25.960 --> 0:27:29.119 so barriered for whatever reason that you can't get the 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:33.720 actual ingredient, then you might start messing around with our 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:37.840 micro lab. The micro lab, I would say probably takes 0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:43.200 around a hundred dollars US to build um it, but 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:47.960 it's not super technical. Our latest version doesn't require any soldering. 0:27:48.119 --> 0:27:51.560 Everything snaps together, which is really nice. You can plug 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:54.960 everything in UM. All the wires are just screw terminals, 0:27:55.000 --> 0:27:59.480 which is really convenient. UM And it takes some time, 0:28:00.200 --> 0:28:05.320 and you do have to load some code. But we're 0:28:05.320 --> 0:28:10.520 looking to release a a new set of documentation in 0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:14.199 the summer that will be very very stripped down of 0:28:14.640 --> 0:28:17.080 here's your bill of materials. You can order all of 0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:21.360 this stuff. Here's how you can put the disk image 0:28:21.520 --> 0:28:24.480 onto the SD card that you put in and you 0:28:24.520 --> 0:28:31.320 should start it and it will wake up and work independently. UM. 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:35.520 We had a video of our head hardware guy actually 0:28:35.600 --> 0:28:40.480 building the micro lab from just parts that we're sitting on, 0:28:40.680 --> 0:28:43.080 laid out on a table, and I think all told 0:28:43.080 --> 0:28:46.680 it took him about forty five minutes, maybe a little 0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:50.080 bit longer, but again, like granted, this guy's a hardware 0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:54.600 specialist and he you know, designed it, so for somebody 0:28:54.600 --> 0:28:57.320 who's not done before, it might take an afternoon, but 0:28:57.520 --> 0:29:01.520 it's not. It's not a pro bitively long or involved 0:29:01.560 --> 0:29:04.760 project that you know, would take you weeks to put together, 0:29:04.960 --> 0:29:12.600 or any specialized understanding of you know, biomedical engineering or 0:29:12.600 --> 0:29:16.360 anything like that. Now, UM, I kind of want to 0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:18.000 move at this point because I think that gives people 0:29:18.400 --> 0:29:20.760 an idea of what's actually necessary and they can go 0:29:20.840 --> 0:29:23.600 to y'all's website, UM or look up you have plans 0:29:23.640 --> 0:29:25.840 on a get hub if they want to kind of 0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:29.200 look at what's what's involved, and it's um some of 0:29:29.240 --> 0:29:31.400 it seems a little daunting to me, like look looking 0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:33.960 at the construction of the bio lab, But I'm that 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:36.040 that's going to be a project that I'll be engaging 0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:37.640 in over the next couple of weeks, so we'll keep 0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:41.040 people updated on how I do there. UM I want 0:29:41.040 --> 0:29:44.520 to move on to talk Michael about what you see 0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:50.320 as kind of the I don't know, the the the 0:29:50.480 --> 0:29:53.880 potential from kind of a revolutionary perspective, from a perspective 0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:58.360 of actually building dual power of this project. And obviously 0:29:58.400 --> 0:30:00.240 you are and I think what would would be called 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:03.600 the early stages of this idea of kind of democratizing 0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:09.720 and decentralizing the production of life saving medications. UM. Although 0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:11.400 I guess you could argue in some ways it's kind 0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:14.120 of a return to more traditional attitudes about health care 0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:17.840 in a lot of ways. Yeah, there's a cyclic nature there, 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:21.800 and in the sort of zen mind, beginner's mind, we'd 0:30:21.800 --> 0:30:24.880 like to think that the revolution is always in its 0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:31.120 beginning stages, right. Um. That to say, over the past decade, 0:30:31.200 --> 0:30:37.120 roughly looking at trying to find ways to give people 0:30:37.600 --> 0:30:44.120 more independent access that doesn't require infrastructure to medicines and 0:30:44.160 --> 0:30:54.680 medical technologies. The the hope really is to create a 0:30:54.800 --> 0:31:01.440 certain amount of cultural shift. I remember one point a 0:31:01.480 --> 0:31:05.440 friend of mine, who as a business school graduate, asked 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:09.240 me a very sort of like business school type question 0:31:09.360 --> 0:31:15.400 where he said, how would you measure success of your project? Um? 0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:19.640 And I said, well, we cease to exist as an organization, 0:31:20.280 --> 0:31:21.640 and he kind of had this moment of like, what 0:31:21.720 --> 0:31:25.760 do you mean we shouldn't be pushing this right, the 0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:30.160 ideas that eventually the concept of managing your own health 0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:36.960 is sufficiently normalized that it's not something that has to 0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:40.200 be explained between people. But somebody says, oh, yeah, I 0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:47.120 just I just did that up in my micro lab um. 0:31:47.400 --> 0:31:50.680 In the same way that when you look at the 0:31:50.760 --> 0:31:57.240 shift that happened between oh, you know, the mid eighties 0:31:57.320 --> 0:32:03.280 in the mid nineties, where computers were this strange, scary 0:32:03.360 --> 0:32:07.640 thing that was you know, we're only accessible or usable 0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:11.440 by people who were very specialized. Is something that you know, 0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:13.800 everybody knew about and everybody kind of had and everybody 0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.280 sort of used. And the same sort of thing that 0:32:16.400 --> 0:32:22.280 happened between the period of time I don't know, maybe 0:32:22.760 --> 0:32:27.000 ten twelve years ago and now with with three D printing, 0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:30.960 where like stereo lithography and rapid prototyping was again the 0:32:31.040 --> 0:32:34.440 specialized thing that a bunch of people who were essentially 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:38.720 at the machine tool industry had started to spearhead. And 0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:41.200 now you say, three D printing, everybody knows what it means. 0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:46.040 In the same sort of way, I'd very much like 0:32:46.120 --> 0:32:52.960 to see a cultural shift where when somebody is unwell, 0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:58.240 that when discussions between people happened, that instead of the 0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:04.080 have you had that looked at it, or you might 0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:09.520 instead here from somebody saying well have you read up 0:33:09.560 --> 0:33:13.880 on that? You know, to see people actually engaged in 0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:19.400 their own health and not going through this very typical 0:33:19.520 --> 0:33:22.840 process of outsourcing responsibility. Now, it's not to say that 0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:27.200 like experts aren't good people with whom to consult, right, Yeah, 0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:31.320 we're not talking about replacing the idea of medical professionals 0:33:31.320 --> 0:33:34.360 who can help you understand what your health and diagnose 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:37.760 and stuff like. Yeah, but there is again this drastic 0:33:37.840 --> 0:33:43.720 difference between going to a doctor and essentially just like 0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:46.640 throwing the problem on their desk and saying fixed it, 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:50.560 call me when it's over, versus going to a doctor 0:33:50.560 --> 0:33:54.960 and saying, hey, i'd like to talk about this, I'd 0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:58.200 like to know more about what's wrong here, and I'd 0:33:58.240 --> 0:34:04.240 like to discus us what the options are and what 0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:09.920 seems best. Um that would be great on a lot 0:34:09.920 --> 0:34:15.480 of levels. And and then these questions of access to 0:34:15.520 --> 0:34:21.240 medication then become even more relevant because when you're talking 0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:24.319 with a doctor and the doctor says Okay, well we 0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:27.719 could try this therapy, but your insurance won't pay for it. 0:34:27.760 --> 0:34:30.799 This three hundred dollars. You can say, all right, well 0:34:30.880 --> 0:34:32.799 let's just do a little thought experiment and if that 0:34:32.880 --> 0:34:35.000 fell from a truck, what would I do with it? 0:34:35.480 --> 0:34:37.759 And then maybe you can go home and say, you know, 0:34:38.200 --> 0:34:40.000 I'll call you and let you know how it goes. 0:34:42.239 --> 0:34:47.600 I that's that's really my my grant, Hope. And there 0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:49.600 are so many different ways that that can play out. 0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:53.600 In fact, I'll tell you a hilarious story in regards 0:34:53.640 --> 0:34:57.160 to this, which was in I guess it was when 0:34:57.160 --> 0:35:01.920 we presented it, Hope. UM. I called Martin Shakraley's cell 0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:05.319 phone from stage UH to try and ask him what 0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:09.319 he thought about what we were doing, given that I 0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:12.320 was handing his drug out for free, UM and showing 0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:15.319 people how to make it. And he didn't answer the 0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:17.000 phone when I called him then, but he called me 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:22.360 back a few hours later, which was really hilarious. We 0:35:22.480 --> 0:35:25.480 actually chatted for a while and the guys, I mean 0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:30.280 a little detached from reality, but he's he's no dummy, UM. 0:35:31.040 --> 0:35:33.359 And when I sort of described what we were trying 0:35:33.400 --> 0:35:38.640 to do with the micro lab, he had some interesting insights, 0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:40.600 and he said, yeah, you know, one way I can 0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:45.480 imagine that working really well is if somebody with a 0:35:45.560 --> 0:35:52.760 little more knowledge of pharmaceutical medicine were too, maybe build 0:35:52.760 --> 0:35:56.160 one of these and serve a small community. I think 0:35:56.239 --> 0:35:59.719 that could be very efficient. And I was like, that's 0:35:59.719 --> 0:36:05.160 a good saw it you chiseling bastard Um. Yeah, I 0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:07.560 mean that there's a degree which that's That's kind of 0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:10.759 how I see the most realistic potential. This is not 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:13.319 every individual making all of their medicine, but kind of 0:36:13.360 --> 0:36:16.160 like you know we had during the fires last year, 0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:18.720 when when our local and state governments during the heatwave 0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:22.160 this year like completely shut the bed. We had different 0:36:22.239 --> 0:36:25.080 mutual aid collectives do things like we are providing people 0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:27.400 with like oh it's a blizzard, We're providing people with firewood. 0:36:27.680 --> 0:36:30.520 We are providing people with cooling stations because of the heat. 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:32.480 You know, we are providing people with they've just fled 0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:35.320 their houses. We have kits that have food and basic 0:36:35.400 --> 0:36:38.160 necessities so they can get through mutual aid collectives that 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:40.120 are like, well, we are making we specialize and we 0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:42.799 can produce this and this and this medication like these 0:36:42.800 --> 0:36:44.680 three and we have and here's the information you can 0:36:44.719 --> 0:36:46.759 find online about our process. You know that we know 0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:48.719 what we're doing, and if you need these things, you 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:50.480 let us know and we we get them to you. 0:36:50.760 --> 0:36:52.960 And here's different ways in which people can volunteer if 0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:55.120 you want to help engage in this mutual aid process, 0:36:55.120 --> 0:36:58.440 even if you're not someone who's going to be doing 0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:00.480 a lot of the technical stuff. We need people to 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:02.160 go pick up parts, so we need people to do this, 0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:07.000 and you can help us here, you know, And I think, yeah, yeah, 0:37:07.080 --> 0:37:08.759 And I think in a similar way, right, a lot 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:11.399 of that sort of thing is already happening in other 0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:14.160 realms right where it's the sort of thing where you 0:37:14.360 --> 0:37:17.279 you might be building something, or you you see some 0:37:17.320 --> 0:37:19.719 project on GitHub or whatever, and some there are these 0:37:19.880 --> 0:37:22.759 STL files and you go, oh, gosh, well I don't 0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:24.600 want how to do that, but oh right, x y 0:37:24.680 --> 0:37:27.520 z down the street as a three D printer. I'll 0:37:27.520 --> 0:37:30.280 go ask her. She's really good at making these things. 0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:32.799 And you say, hey, look, I have this thing. Would 0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:35.920 this be difficult to print? And with their experience, they 0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:38.439 can kind of look at me like, I know that 0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:41.040 that shouldn't be too hard. Um, you know, I I 0:37:41.080 --> 0:37:42.719 have some time this weekend, maybe I can make that 0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:46.080 for you. And in the same way, you say, hey, 0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:48.920 it looks like I seem to have this rare infection 0:37:49.600 --> 0:37:54.080 from whatever whatever, or I have this odd condition. Um, 0:37:54.120 --> 0:37:57.080 I wanted to try this medication because it might be 0:37:57.120 --> 0:38:00.360 really helpful, but it's not legal in this kind treat 0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:02.920 Do you think you can put this together? Again? You know, 0:38:02.960 --> 0:38:05.520 you call somebody and whoever's on the other lines, and so, 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:09.120 oh yeah, I have a micro lab. I can try 0:38:09.120 --> 0:38:11.080 and put a program together for that and see if 0:38:11.080 --> 0:38:13.480 I can make it for you. That sort of thing, 0:38:13.520 --> 0:38:19.160 I think is a potentially really positive avenue for that 0:38:19.280 --> 0:38:22.920 sort of thing to proliferate and again eventually to have 0:38:24.120 --> 0:38:31.200 a cultural shift where the idea of medicine and medical 0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:36.800 technology not being something that is comes down from above 0:38:36.920 --> 0:38:42.239 from some authority, but instead is something that's managed by 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:46.480 people who are part of your community, who you already trust. 0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:49.240 I mean, that's why going to a doctor is so scary. 0:38:49.320 --> 0:38:52.399 They seem to be the arbiter of your fate. They're 0:38:52.400 --> 0:38:56.120 going to tell you whether you're well or not, and 0:38:56.120 --> 0:39:01.880 and that is just the truth, and much better to 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:05.040 have it where people are making up their own mind 0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:09.640 based on learning about their own health and consulting with 0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:14.280 people who can give them perspective. Um. And if there's 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:17.880 more of that, and if it's closer to the person 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:22.360 who's actually suffering, that I think will be on the 0:39:22.400 --> 0:39:26.879 whole much better. Yeah. It's this the and this gets 0:39:26.920 --> 0:39:28.839 tangled up in a lot of the more toxic things 0:39:28.880 --> 0:39:31.120 we've seen this year, But it's this this understanding that 0:39:33.160 --> 0:39:37.319 with any given problem, if individuals trying to solve that 0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:40.760 problem have more autonomy, and part of autonomy is knowledge, 0:39:41.680 --> 0:39:45.799 that's nearly always better. Um. The problem, of course is 0:39:45.840 --> 0:39:47.680 that like we we get into this situation, we are 0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:50.920 now where some people take I'm take some people some 0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:54.160 people use I want to take control of my health 0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:57.319 care to you know, do stuff that's nonsense. And that 0:39:57.400 --> 0:39:59.680 brings us back to the question of like, yeah, you 0:39:59.760 --> 0:40:02.239 need in for the quality of the information that you're 0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:05.200 getting is very important, right because if if you're if 0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:08.160 you if your research is some YouTube video that has 0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:10.960 convinced you that you need to you know, take this 0:40:10.960 --> 0:40:13.480 this horse paste or something, then yeah, that's not good. 0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:17.280 But that doesn't change the fact that like with food, 0:40:17.440 --> 0:40:20.799 like with with everything, that you need to survive, the 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:26.600 more of a role you have in understanding that, deciding 0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:28.759 what to do with that, understanding where it comes from 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:32.600 and how it is produced. Um. Not just like, not 0:40:32.680 --> 0:40:34.759 only is that I think more satisfying as a human, 0:40:34.800 --> 0:40:42.200 but it's it's also critical to to your well being. UM. 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:46.120 It's critical to like on two levels, right on two levels, 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:52.560 because not only when your health is taken from you, 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:57.080 it doesn't deprive you of life, but it deprives you 0:40:57.200 --> 0:41:02.880 participating in any of the acts that make life meaningful. 0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:06.680 And part of that key thing that makes life meaningful 0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:14.120 is having a participatory role in the things that decide 0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:17.919 the trajectory of your life. And so when you go 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:24.320 to the lengths of managing your own health, two things happen. 0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:29.160 First off, your health improves, assuming you've made good decisions 0:41:29.160 --> 0:41:34.160 and get lucky. But second, you're also having a participatory 0:41:34.320 --> 0:41:39.680 role in your life, and that makes life more meaningful. 0:41:40.320 --> 0:41:44.600 And it beyond just kind of the self actualization benefits 0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:48.000 from from a perspective of actually enabling people to participate 0:41:48.520 --> 0:41:52.080 in the move for radical change in our society. One 0:41:52.200 --> 0:41:54.839 necessary element of that to any of the kind of 0:41:54.880 --> 0:41:59.520 things that we need is a belief in your own 0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:03.720 agent see and power. Um. And also and a freedom 0:42:03.760 --> 0:42:07.080 from the kind of fear that comes from feeling helpless. 0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:10.160 And there is I think probably no feeling worse in 0:42:10.280 --> 0:42:15.280 the world than feeling completely helpless about a treatable medical problem. UM. 0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:17.120 I mean, it's one thing I just went through my mom, 0:42:17.160 --> 0:42:19.040 when when you get a disease where there's just nothing 0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:21.319 that science can do, right, We're like, yeah, you've got 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:24.279 this cancer, and there there ain't ship anybody has for you. 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:28.560 You know, that's one kind of horrible, but I think 0:42:28.600 --> 0:42:31.879 it's a lot less terrible than you. I have this 0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:34.399 thing that we can deal with, but I either can't 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:35.879 afford it or I don't know that I'll be able 0:42:35.920 --> 0:42:38.080 to afford it. I had a horrible I lost my 0:42:38.239 --> 0:42:41.480 job in my healthcare in seventeen and so did a 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:43.319 person who was on my healthcare with me that I 0:42:43.320 --> 0:42:48.000 love very much. And I got this, you know, hired 0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:50.480 here in healthcare a couple of years later. And it 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:55.279 happened that a month before the the I started my 0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:57.920 health care at this new job, this person who was 0:42:57.920 --> 0:43:00.879 on my healthcare with me UM diagnosed with a brain 0:43:00.960 --> 0:43:03.160 tumor and thankfully not a cancerous one, but the one 0:43:03.200 --> 0:43:05.080 that they had to take medication for that would have 0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:10.400 been would have bankrupted us, you know, without the without insurance. 0:43:10.560 --> 0:43:14.200 And thankfully it worked out fine, the timing worked out okay. 0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:16.000 But there's not a week that goes by that I 0:43:16.040 --> 0:43:20.000 don't and it it's it's it is something that makes 0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:23.040 you less willing to take risks, less willing to participate 0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:26.160 in in things that because you have in the back 0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:28.239 of your head, well, I have to I have to 0:43:28.320 --> 0:43:30.120 keep this job, I have to keep this insurance, I 0:43:30.160 --> 0:43:34.400 have to y yeah that And that's another thing that 0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:39.040 I find so heartbreaking. There's so many people that I've 0:43:39.520 --> 0:43:45.560 I've met totally outside of my activism who lament about 0:43:45.560 --> 0:43:48.080 working a job that they hate, and I say, gosh, 0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:52.640 for you know, I mean, you consider just bailing on 0:43:52.680 --> 0:43:55.600 it and looking for something else and trying something else. 0:43:55.680 --> 0:44:04.080 And they have this total paralysis of saying, but if 0:44:04.080 --> 0:44:08.400 I quit my job, I won't have healthcare mhm and 0:44:08.400 --> 0:44:13.200 and and mind you like, these were people who were 0:44:13.960 --> 0:44:17.960 incredibly healthy. These were not people who had any regular 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:22.239 visits to healthcare. They're just scared that if something comes up, 0:44:22.600 --> 0:44:25.279 they want people to handle it. And it's it's a 0:44:25.480 --> 0:44:29.480 perfectly well grounded fear. But as you point out, what 0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:34.240 this does is it works as this sort of shadow 0:44:34.960 --> 0:44:42.480 oppressive mechanism to keep people from exploring, trying things, as 0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:46.200 you say, taking risks, or or just doing things that 0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:54.000 don't involve a an optimization toward a stable state of 0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:56.520 maybe just like yeah, maybe I'll start a small business 0:44:56.520 --> 0:44:58.480 and yeah, it probably will fail, but that will be 0:44:58.520 --> 0:45:03.280 a cool adventure. And most people, you know, so many people, 0:45:03.560 --> 0:45:08.680 maybe not most, but many, many people, um get just 0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:13.120 terrified into this state of inertial paralysis. Yeah, and it 0:45:13.160 --> 0:45:16.400 contributes to people being afraid to take to the street 0:45:16.440 --> 0:45:19.000 to protest the police because maybe they get arrested, and 0:45:19.040 --> 0:45:21.400 maybe they get fired, and then you know, maybe their 0:45:21.440 --> 0:45:25.200 kid can't afford their Like there's a thousand ways. I think, honestly, 0:45:25.239 --> 0:45:28.680 the fear of losing your health care is in some 0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:31.960 ways as great a greater counterrevolutionary force than any law 0:45:32.040 --> 0:45:34.759 enforcement agency could hope to be, because the fear is 0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:39.560 so much more immediate to so many people. Nobody talks 0:45:39.640 --> 0:45:42.520 about that. And thank you so much for mentioning it, 0:45:42.560 --> 0:45:45.439 because it's something that like, oftentimes I try to bring 0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:49.200 up when I'm discussing things in public for it, and 0:45:49.200 --> 0:45:51.520 and oftentimes people kind of raise an eyebrow on me 0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:53.759 and be like, that's what's the big deal, And I'm like, no, no, 0:45:54.080 --> 0:45:57.800 Like you look two layers deep. There's something that's really 0:45:57.840 --> 0:46:06.160 working against people being able to exercise protests, and it's, uh, 0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:10.360 it's it's it's this really silent, terrifying force that seems 0:46:10.360 --> 0:46:15.960 to underlie everything. And if you could alleviate that, if 0:46:16.000 --> 0:46:18.719 you can get to the point where people are like, yeah, 0:46:18.719 --> 0:46:21.160 the hell with it, you know, I don't need a 0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:25.400 job to take care of me, then all of a sudden, 0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:31.919 so many possibilities just blossomed in the mind. Yeah, if 0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:33.960 you have, like it, say, if you're a parent who 0:46:33.960 --> 0:46:38.320 has a child with you know who, who's insolent dependent. Uh, 0:46:38.480 --> 0:46:41.560 there's not a lot of difference in my mind between 0:46:41.640 --> 0:46:44.560 the fact that between someone holding a gun to your 0:46:44.560 --> 0:46:47.200 head and your boss being able to fire you and 0:46:47.239 --> 0:46:49.839 take away your your kids access to that insulent there's 0:46:49.880 --> 0:46:54.439 not a tremendous moral difference to me. Um, I'd say 0:46:54.480 --> 0:46:57.720 getting a gun to your head is actually more likely 0:46:57.760 --> 0:47:02.080 to survive that for it's less inevitable. You could talk 0:47:02.160 --> 0:47:05.520 your way out of that, and yeah, whatever, but there 0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:07.520 are any number of things that might go wrong there. 0:47:07.600 --> 0:47:10.400 But if somebody takes takes away your insulin, that's the 0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:14.000 end of the story. Yeah, I guess the more salient 0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:16.840 point than the comparison issues. They're both acts of violence, 0:47:17.239 --> 0:47:19.600 and in every way that's meaningful, I think they're both 0:47:19.600 --> 0:47:23.399 acts of violence. And one way that when I rail 0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:28.080 against intellectual property as a concept and intellectual property law, 0:47:28.719 --> 0:47:31.400 the example that I give is they say, if somebody 0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:34.759 were dying and you knew how to save them, would 0:47:34.800 --> 0:47:39.399 you ever not tell them how and just watch them die? Say, 0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:41.960 oh no, that idea belongs to me, and I'm not 0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:45.960 going to share unless you pay me. Like no human 0:47:46.120 --> 0:47:50.319 being that I think I've ever heard of would do that. 0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:57.440 And yet this happens every day because we've sort of 0:47:57.520 --> 0:48:02.680 carried these questions of copy into patents and despite the 0:48:02.680 --> 0:48:04.719 fact that they are hundreds of years old and not 0:48:05.080 --> 0:48:10.279 applicable anymore, assuming they were ever applicable, and people just 0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:13.239 die because people say, oh, well, we can make more 0:48:13.239 --> 0:48:25.239 money if we do it this way. There's a fascinating 0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:29.160 thing going on there when you really drilled into that idea. 0:48:29.160 --> 0:48:31.120 Because I suspect. There are a lot of people who 0:48:31.160 --> 0:48:36.520 have who are are integral in propping up this system, 0:48:36.560 --> 0:48:39.040 both of kind of medical intellectual property and of just 0:48:39.120 --> 0:48:41.439 like the pharmaceutical industry, the way that it works people 0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:44.239 in politics, huge numbers of people who are integral in 0:48:44.760 --> 0:48:48.480 some facet of keeping that going, who also, were they 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:51.439 to see an individual and immediate medical distress, would never 0:48:51.600 --> 0:48:55.160 think of like try getting their debit card number or 0:48:55.160 --> 0:48:58.640 whatever like asking them, would would without thinking attempt because 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:00.800 that's what people do, and it's I mean, this is 0:49:00.800 --> 0:49:02.440 where we get into kind of some of these more 0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:07.640 philosophical anarchist ideas about what hierarchy does and what these 0:49:07.680 --> 0:49:11.520 structures do, because structures enable people to participate in evil 0:49:11.520 --> 0:49:15.200 that they never would as an individual. Um, yeah, there's 0:49:15.239 --> 0:49:19.759 this easy route that many easy routes that pop up 0:49:20.440 --> 0:49:25.280 that allow people or force i should say force people 0:49:25.360 --> 0:49:29.040 to be displaced from their humanity in that sort of 0:49:29.080 --> 0:49:33.080 way where yes, of course, you you help somebody up 0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:36.640 off of subway tracks if they've fallen. Yes of course, 0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:40.239 if somebody were drowning, you drag them out and save them. 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:44.600 And yet just because it's a degree removed and it's 0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:49.560 mediated by an agency. Suddenly it's so easy to forget 0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:54.680 and ignore and be sort of complicit. And yeah, and 0:49:54.719 --> 0:49:58.000 I just to go back around to what four Thieves 0:49:58.080 --> 0:50:00.319 is doing and what y'all are doing it. It's one 0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:04.600 of the few projects going on right now that fits 0:50:04.760 --> 0:50:08.800 what my idealistic nineteen year old brain thought the Internet 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:10.840 would be sixteen fifteen, Like when I when it was, 0:50:10.920 --> 0:50:14.000 when things were newer and a little less We're like, oh, 0:50:14.120 --> 0:50:16.120 this is like one of these days, Well, this kind 0:50:16.120 --> 0:50:19.919 of ship's gonna happen um. And that is I think, 0:50:19.960 --> 0:50:23.000 I mean, that's that's not without value from again a 0:50:23.040 --> 0:50:26.600 revolutionary perspective, the fact that it is pretty rad. You 0:50:26.640 --> 0:50:30.200 know well, I mean I will not deny the fact 0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:33.160 that it feels good, you know. There. I think that 0:50:34.880 --> 0:50:36.799 I think that we all grew up with that sort 0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:42.000 of hope and belief that we were gonna open these 0:50:42.120 --> 0:50:44.040 new doors and they were going to be these new 0:50:44.080 --> 0:50:48.080 possibilities and things that we have been reading about in 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:52.400 science fiction. We're going to become real and and there's 0:50:52.680 --> 0:50:57.640 there's a great satisfaction in not just witnessing your childhood 0:50:57.760 --> 0:51:00.600 dreams become realities, but actually, you know, having a hand 0:51:00.640 --> 0:51:04.600 in it. Uh, it's there's there's something quite satisfying about that. 0:51:04.640 --> 0:51:08.879 I will yeah, I will admit, well, I think that's 0:51:08.920 --> 0:51:11.640 a pretty good point to close out on today. I 0:51:11.640 --> 0:51:13.600 don't need to take up too much more of your 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:16.360 time right now, Michael. But but as I told people, 0:51:16.400 --> 0:51:19.160 I'm gonna be I'm gonna be trying to get into 0:51:19.200 --> 0:51:21.799 some of this because I find it just both fascinating 0:51:21.840 --> 0:51:27.680 and incredibly hopeful. Um. In a world where it seems like, uh, 0:51:27.719 --> 0:51:31.120 there are constantly forces conspiring to strip people of their 0:51:31.160 --> 0:51:34.240 ability to take control of critical aspects of their lives, 0:51:34.680 --> 0:51:37.560 you and your your colleagues in this are trying to 0:51:37.600 --> 0:51:43.680 give people opportunities to take some some power back for themselves, 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:47.960 and I just think that's it's pretty dope. Thank you 0:51:48.080 --> 0:51:51.080 so much. Yeah, and see your listeners. If there are 0:51:51.080 --> 0:51:52.920 people out there who like what we're doing and you 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:57.239 want to support the project, please go find somebody who 0:51:57.320 --> 0:52:00.279 needs your help but doesn't deserve it, and then help 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:05.360 them anyway. Yeah. Yeah, that's always a good thing to do. Um, Michael, 0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:08.200 anything else, any like a thing else you want to 0:52:08.280 --> 0:52:10.320 kind of put this is normally this section where people 0:52:10.320 --> 0:52:13.239 plug websites or projects or anything, you've got anything in 0:52:13.239 --> 0:52:17.719 particularly you want to throw out there right now. Uh sure, 0:52:17.400 --> 0:52:20.200 We're hoping to do a bunch of big releases in 0:52:20.239 --> 0:52:23.799 the summer um, so look for those. In the meantime, 0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:28.759 we're always looking for help, So if you're out there 0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:32.879 and you'd like to be assisted in the project, uh, 0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:35.560 please get in touch. There's the contact us page on 0:52:35.600 --> 0:52:38.560 the website. And by the way, this do not have 0:52:38.640 --> 0:52:41.480 to be a technical person we're looking for currently, we're 0:52:41.480 --> 0:52:44.480 looking for writers. We have a lot of documentation that 0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:46.919 we need to do, So if you're out there and 0:52:47.040 --> 0:52:53.799 you have you know, background in in language, then that 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:56.560 would be great. If if you're somebody who feels that 0:52:56.600 --> 0:53:00.160 you're entirely without skills, please get in touch. We have 0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:03.239 any number of endless small tasks that just need to 0:53:03.239 --> 0:53:05.640 be taken care of because we don't have enough people. 0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:09.400 So if you'd like to participate, we'd love to have you. 0:53:09.640 --> 0:53:13.640 Please get in touch and in the meantime, keep each 0:53:13.680 --> 0:53:17.320 other healthy, keep each other. Thank you so much, Michael, 0:53:18.000 --> 0:53:23.520 thanks so much for having me. It could happen here 0:53:23.520 --> 0:53:26.200 as a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 0:53:26.200 --> 0:53:28.800 from Cool Zone Media, visit our website. Cool zone media 0:53:28.880 --> 0:53:30.680 dot com or check us out on the I Heart 0:53:30.719 --> 0:53:33.799 Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, 0:53:34.320 --> 0:53:36.440 you can find sources for It could happen here, Updated 0:53:36.520 --> 0:53:39.959 monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 0:53:40.000 --> 0:53:40.560 for listening.