Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to it could happen here. I am
Speaker 1: Robert Evans, and this is the show where we talk
Speaker 1: about how everything is kind of falling apart and how
Speaker 1: we might put it back together again in a way
Speaker 1: that works better than it did before UM, or do
Speaker 1: something different that is even anyway. Whatever. It's a show
Speaker 1: about the future and about the messed up present UM
Speaker 1: And as a result of that, one of the things
Speaker 1: we talk about a lot is self sufficiency. We've had
Speaker 1: a number of episodes kind of covering the values of
Speaker 1: like replacing your lawn with food, guerilla gardening, that sort
Speaker 1: of stuff. And one of the critiques we get is
Speaker 1: people saying, well, you know, that's never gonna work on
Speaker 1: a large scale. It's never going to replace industrial agriculture
Speaker 1: or whatever. And that's perfectly true. But the point we're
Speaker 1: going for here and why we encourage these kind of
Speaker 1: resilience building activities is because they do improve the ability
Speaker 1: of communities to resist when they need to resist, and
Speaker 1: also provide opportunities by which people can reimagine their relationship to,
Speaker 1: for example, all the food supply chain, or reimagine the
Speaker 1: relationship to their community, and the kind of things that
Speaker 1: communities provide for each other rather than having them shipped
Speaker 1: in by Amazon. UM. And when we start talking about that,
Speaker 1: when we start talking about improving community resiliency for things like,
Speaker 1: you know, a general strike or even potentially more radical stuff.
Speaker 1: One of the big issues that any community has to
Speaker 1: confront is not just food, but medicine. I'm I do,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of other people have friends
Speaker 1: who cannot survive without medications that are very like reliant
Speaker 1: upon existing supply chains UM and to some extent, even
Speaker 1: the stability of the government, you know, UM, getting your insulin,
Speaker 1: getting your medication for whatever kind of disease you have
Speaker 1: that that needs constant medication. There's a bunch of different
Speaker 1: reasons why people are reliant upon the medical um supply
Speaker 1: lines and upon the kind of pharmaceutical industry. And that's
Speaker 1: one of the big when we talk about building more
Speaker 1: resilient communities, one of the big hurdles to jump. Well. Today,
Speaker 1: my guest is someone who is working on bridging some
Speaker 1: of these problems. UM. His name is Michael Lawfer, and
Speaker 1: he is the founder of an organization called the Four
Speaker 1: Thieves Vinegar Collective. They are bio hackers UM, and they
Speaker 1: are working on cracking certain pharmaceutical medications to allow individuals
Speaker 1: with resources that are generally available to people who are
Speaker 1: not rich or pharmaceutical companies UM to produce life saving medications. UM.
Speaker 1: The number one thing you would have heard of from
Speaker 1: four Thieves is the EPI pencil, which we'll talk about
Speaker 1: it a bit. But first, Michael, thank you for coming
Speaker 1: on the show. Thanks so much for having me. It's
Speaker 1: exciting to be able to shot and talk with you
Speaker 1: and all the people surrounding you who are trying to
Speaker 1: just unfunned things a little bit. Yeah, yeah, and I
Speaker 1: most of the conversation I want to have today is
Speaker 1: on the unfucking of things variety. But I do think
Speaker 1: we should start with a little bit technical talk first.
Speaker 1: Can you give people an idea of what kind of
Speaker 1: medications you and other people in the collective have figured
Speaker 1: out how to produce UM and what kind of resources
Speaker 1: and individual needs to be able to do some of
Speaker 1: this stuff. Sure. So, from a technical perspective, most of
Speaker 1: the things that we focus on are what's called small
Speaker 1: molecule chemistry, and to kind of describe that blanketly, if
Speaker 1: you can draw the molecule in a cocktail napkin. It
Speaker 1: probably qualifies as a small molecule if it's one of
Speaker 1: these things that like, you know, if you look at
Speaker 1: the diagram for the molecules approaching, it's got big ribbons
Speaker 1: that are colored and stuff that's a that's a biochemic thing,
Speaker 1: and it's a whole different set of problems. Now, the
Speaker 1: mean focide that we've had have been surrounding access to abortion,
Speaker 1: access to hive medications, access to hepatitis C medications, and
Speaker 1: access to reversal of jug overdose medications. So that's been
Speaker 1: sort of our main focus, but there's been a handful
Speaker 1: of others. The things that we tend to look for
Speaker 1: our where are there things that there's a great need
Speaker 1: and there's a huge barrier, And so you see those
Speaker 1: in those places a lot, because the three main barriers
Speaker 1: that tend to pop up between somebody and access to
Speaker 1: the medication they need are either price or legality or
Speaker 1: lack of infrastructure. And typically the weirdness that comes up
Speaker 1: mostly surrounds price because of intellectual property laws and marginalization
Speaker 1: of people who suffer from particular ailments or seem to
Speaker 1: suffer predominantly from particular ailments. And so if you're if
Speaker 1: you're poor, and you're in a class of people that
Speaker 1: is seen as something not to be cared about because
Speaker 1: they're not a strong voter base, then the ability to
Speaker 1: move access away from those people and put in more
Speaker 1: barriers and raise prices becomes easier to defend. UM. So
Speaker 1: the first drug that we focused on was a an
Speaker 1: anti parasitic um. Toxoplasmosis is a parasite that's pretty innocuous
Speaker 1: for most people anybody when you get from cats, right
Speaker 1: or is this not Gandhi? It is. It is the
Speaker 1: one you get from cats, and it's really fascinating parasite
Speaker 1: too if if if you ever dig into the behavioral
Speaker 1: biology of it, it's really really fascinating parasite. UM, I
Speaker 1: probably have it. Yeah, I have three cats. I definitely
Speaker 1: have it. So and so it's not a big deal
Speaker 1: for those people, but if you have a massively compromised
Speaker 1: immune system, especially with people with HIV or advanced stages
Speaker 1: of cancer, and that's why it was labeled sort of
Speaker 1: you know HIV drug, it's not it's a it's an
Speaker 1: anti parasitic, but it's used almost exclusively by people who
Speaker 1: are an advanced stages of cancer. Uh, people with fairly
Speaker 1: compromised immune systems from HIV or something else, and then
Speaker 1: pregnant women. Um, And it's not that big deal. If
Speaker 1: you have access to the medication, you can merely take
Speaker 1: it and eradicates from body. Uh. The difference was is
Speaker 1: that something that was a short course of treatment you
Speaker 1: take I think for um, you know, four doses the
Speaker 1: first time around, and then one dose each day subsequently
Speaker 1: for something like ten days. Um, And that's not a
Speaker 1: big deal when each dose each was about thirteen and
Speaker 1: a half dollars. And then Martin cry jacked up the
Speaker 1: price to seven fifty a pill, and so we're like, well,
Speaker 1: this is ridiculous. So that was the first one that
Speaker 1: we went after. Then of course access to abortion drugs, um,
Speaker 1: that's a big one. That's pretty topical lately. We released
Speaker 1: a video maybe three months ago on how you can
Speaker 1: make your own abortion pills without too much fuss. This
Speaker 1: would be mythopristone, right, Uh, mithopristone and Mr Pristall. So
Speaker 1: you can do it with just Mr Purstall, or you
Speaker 1: can do it in combination. And when you do it
Speaker 1: with just the one with just miso, you have about
Speaker 1: an eighty five percent chance of it working. And if
Speaker 1: you have both, they bumps it up to about and
Speaker 1: what is the like what when you're doing this? And
Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit with the hardware, but like
Speaker 1: what is the re agent that you have for this?
Speaker 1: Because I know that's been a big part of some
Speaker 1: of the discussions is like how do you get the
Speaker 1: thing as you make the medicines from which is easier
Speaker 1: for some than it is for others. Sure, there are
Speaker 1: a couple different ways that you google about that. The
Speaker 1: the interesting but more difficult way, of course, is to
Speaker 1: do the chemistry from scratch, where like you say, get
Speaker 1: access from the agents, you do some chemistry, and you
Speaker 1: end up with the active pharmaceutical ingredient, which we lovingly
Speaker 1: referred to as the API, and then you package it
Speaker 1: somehow into a tablet or a pill or or some
Speaker 1: other means of ingress into the body. Um. The instructions
Speaker 1: that we distributed skip the difficult part because mr. Pristal
Speaker 1: is an ulcer medication, and so for instance, if you
Speaker 1: have access to Mexico or are in Mexico, it's kind
Speaker 1: of not a big deal because as an ulcer medication,
Speaker 1: it's over the counter, and you can just go in
Speaker 1: and say, oh, you know, my grandmother can't get out
Speaker 1: of bed. She needs this ulcer medication. I need just
Speaker 1: a little bit of it to get her through the weekend. Um,
Speaker 1: and then no problem. Uh. Not so easy in places
Speaker 1: where it's a little more controlled, like the US. However,
Speaker 1: one amazing trick when looking for medicines, access to medicines
Speaker 1: that are generally blocked from people that the existing power
Speaker 1: structure tries to disenfranchise from access is you look and
Speaker 1: see if it's similarly used for other classes of person
Speaker 1: or being that the infrastructure does care about. So interestingly,
Speaker 1: you look for ulcer medication, you say, well, like, who
Speaker 1: else has ulcers that you know, people might think are
Speaker 1: important people. That doesn't really come up, and there are
Speaker 1: other ulster medications are a little bit better. However, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of really wealthy people in the United States,
Speaker 1: and really wealthy people tend to keep horses and horses
Speaker 1: interestingly um or something or maybe more some ungodly percentage
Speaker 1: of domesticated horses have ulcers. UM. Now why that is
Speaker 1: I'm not entirely clear about, but my own theory is
Speaker 1: that it has something to do with taking a gigantic
Speaker 1: wild animal and putting it into a very small box
Speaker 1: for most of its life. Yeah, it doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: the thing that horses evolved to do. Yeah. So, so
Speaker 1: that said, people who are horse owners typically have to
Speaker 1: treat them constantly for ulcers, and the best thing for
Speaker 1: that is Mr. Perstal. And so you can get Mr.
Speaker 1: Crystall powder in a tub from places that, yeah, feedstore
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, I go to a feed store every week.
Speaker 1: I'm sure I could buy a bucket of this ship probably,
Speaker 1: So it comes in tubs. And the other thing that's
Speaker 1: great about it coming in a tub is that it's
Speaker 1: already in with a buffer. Part of the thing about Mr.
Speaker 1: Crystall is that the dosages in micrograms, and that's very
Speaker 1: hard to weigh unless you have a really high precision scale.
Speaker 1: Even your good drug dealers generally don't have a scale
Speaker 1: that can do that. Right. So, but the magic is,
Speaker 1: this isn't a tub with a bunch of inert powder,
Speaker 1: and it's it's already mixed up to be homogeneous. And
Speaker 1: so what you can do is you can do a
Speaker 1: little bit of back of the envelope arithmetic, and you
Speaker 1: can measure out much larger quantities and know how much
Speaker 1: active ingredients you have and then pack that into a tablet.
Speaker 1: Now yeah, um, I mean that makes so much sense.
Speaker 1: And it's also like like the you have kind of
Speaker 1: the dark side and light side version. It's kind of
Speaker 1: the light side version of all of those people buying
Speaker 1: up ivermectin for for nonsense. It's like, well, no, there's
Speaker 1: reasons to buy, you know, like, uh, livestock medication especially. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a lot of friends who took
Speaker 1: fishing antibiotics back in the day, and this is kind
Speaker 1: of a much more um using it in a much
Speaker 1: more rigorous way to provide people with something that can
Speaker 1: is getting it will be getting increasingly difficult to access
Speaker 1: in a lot of parts of the country. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just such a smart way of approaching it, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that becomes philosophically a bit
Speaker 1: sticky is when you end up talking about the importance
Speaker 1: of independent management of one's own health and decision making
Speaker 1: not coming from above. There's this difficult moment that I've
Speaker 1: had kind of having to cop to the reality that
Speaker 1: if you're building mechanisms to empower people to have access
Speaker 1: to make decisions about managing their own health. H Part
Speaker 1: of that entails realizing that that will also lead to
Speaker 1: a lot of people making what I might think are
Speaker 1: bad decisions, but that the important thing is that it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what I think. That people should not be
Speaker 1: controlled by other people, and if they make bad decisions,
Speaker 1: that sucks, and hopefully we can help that, but not
Speaker 1: not lamenting the importance of or not not backtracking, not
Speaker 1: having some sort of retrograde about offering more access even
Speaker 1: if people misuse that access to the miss manage their
Speaker 1: own health. Mismanagement of health happens no matter what right.
Speaker 1: It happens constantly, and people will ignore things that seem
Speaker 1: like they're bigger problems and don't get them addressed. And
Speaker 1: so I have to sort of retreat into this idea
Speaker 1: that more access to more tools is better and that's
Speaker 1: just the way of it. And yeah, the problem, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, the problem with ivermectin isn't the problem. The
Speaker 1: problem is that that people have access to ivermectin, and
Speaker 1: so they're taking it in a way that is harmful
Speaker 1: to them. The problem is that people have been have
Speaker 1: have been blinded by disinformation and so are making a
Speaker 1: horrible health care decision. The fact that they have it's
Speaker 1: possessed to veterinary medication is fine, right, exactly, And and
Speaker 1: it's and it's interesting that you say that because I
Speaker 1: have a friend of Doctors Without Borders and they are
Speaker 1: starting a couple of pretty strong programs to try and
Speaker 1: combat misinformation, because just from a metric standpoint, they look
Speaker 1: for sort of like, what's killing the greatest number of
Speaker 1: people at the greatest rate in the worst way, And
Speaker 1: currently the thing that's killing the most people in the
Speaker 1: worst way at the greatest rate is misinformation. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's really the great danger. And one of the
Speaker 1: things I found really interesting about kind of what you
Speaker 1: all have been doing because obviously the question of how
Speaker 1: to fight the misinformation in the medical sphere is a
Speaker 1: much larger conversation without simple answers. When it comes to
Speaker 1: a question like, oh, hey, this pharmaceutical company jacked up
Speaker 1: the price by what seven for this necessary medication for
Speaker 1: people a lot of people who have HIV UM What
Speaker 1: are we The solution to that is simple, You find
Speaker 1: a way for them to get it without paying hundreds
Speaker 1: and hundreds of dollars per dose. UM the question. Some
Speaker 1: of the work you all have done is with very
Speaker 1: uh mass needed products like the the mythopres don't like
Speaker 1: the epipencil um, where there's large numbers of people who
Speaker 1: need it. But a lot of what I think, one
Speaker 1: of the things I think is really cool is y'all
Speaker 1: are also working on hacking medications that are very niche like,
Speaker 1: very very few people have this particular disease, and so
Speaker 1: the medication is the costs as much as a fully
Speaker 1: loaded Toyota tacoma, you know, in order to sometimes far
Speaker 1: worse than that. Because of this Orphan Drug Act that
Speaker 1: got past in the US and equivalence that exists in
Speaker 1: other places, you have all of these allowances that are
Speaker 1: granted to people who invent I put in air quotes
Speaker 1: m because really they just purchase the rights to it
Speaker 1: um these these orphan drugs where when you talk about controls,
Speaker 1: it's kind of the most tragic incidents of that entire
Speaker 1: because what's happening is you've got somebody who has a
Speaker 1: very rare disease, and in many cases you have something
Speaker 1: that's the difference between somebody who just cannot function and
Speaker 1: they're dealing with their life kind of moment to moment
Speaker 1: there they're mostly cared for, and if they have access
Speaker 1: to a particular medication, then they can go through life
Speaker 1: in a fairly normal sort of way where they don't
Speaker 1: need to be an assisted living, where that they can
Speaker 1: do sort of basic things for themselves, and that that
Speaker 1: seems so much more predatory. I mean, it's important, of course,
Speaker 1: you know, to look at things with that macro lens
Speaker 1: as well and say what can what can do a
Speaker 1: lot of good for a lot of people. But then
Speaker 1: the sort of micro ethical lens needs to come out
Speaker 1: from time to time and say, all right, well here's
Speaker 1: something that only affects a few hundred thousand people across
Speaker 1: the world. But these are people who can just go
Speaker 1: through life normally if only they had access to a
Speaker 1: little bit of medicine. And the only reason they don't
Speaker 1: is because of misplaced average or all averice is misplaced
Speaker 1: because yeah, and you're you're you're providing individuals or a
Speaker 1: way for people to to help individuals who have this
Speaker 1: problem and who can't couldn't possibly afford this because they
Speaker 1: don't have health care or something a way to deal
Speaker 1: with these illnesses. Um and oftentimes like even even people
Speaker 1: who are ensured get the medication that they need or
Speaker 1: don't get an affordable rate because it's not seen as critical. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well there's a there's a solution that's
Speaker 1: not as good, but it's much less expensive. So that's
Speaker 1: the only thing we're going to cover. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're saying, well, it should be your decision whether
Speaker 1: or not this is something you want to treat this way,
Speaker 1: and we're this is a way if you, you know,
Speaker 1: have access, this is a way for you to kind of,
Speaker 1: as you've been saying, like take your health care and
Speaker 1: your ability to get medication into your own hands and
Speaker 1: produce the things that you need without needing to beg
Speaker 1: an insurance company or go fund me eight dollars or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: does go fund me to break my heart so much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's especially when people say, oh, look, how great somebody
Speaker 1: got the money that they needed, and I say, look,
Speaker 1: I am happy that people get healthcare, but this should
Speaker 1: be entirely unnecessary. And the fact that this comes up
Speaker 1: is criminal. Yeah, we can, we can as a species
Speaker 1: produce this ship for less than the cost of like
Speaker 1: a lamp, you know, Like, why why don't why isn't
Speaker 1: this available? Um now, I And that's what I think
Speaker 1: is kind of so powerful about what y'all are doing,
Speaker 1: And is that so so often we kind of get
Speaker 1: stuck in this like the horror of how bad health
Speaker 1: care is, of how funked up the pharmaceutical industry is,
Speaker 1: and then we get our relief from that in these
Speaker 1: stories of people like crowdfunding so they can get their medication.
Speaker 1: And what you're saying is, well, what's actually much more
Speaker 1: inspiring than that is people just making finding ways to
Speaker 1: make what they need. Um. Again, the kind of the
Speaker 1: most popular popular is the wrong word. The most press
Speaker 1: y'all have received, I think is for the epipencil, which
Speaker 1: is an EpiPen is a device that you take that
Speaker 1: is used when people are going into anaphylactic shock, which
Speaker 1: is when they have an allergic reaction that will kill
Speaker 1: them if untreated. Generally, UM and it you injected into
Speaker 1: your muscles or generally, like an EpiPen does the injecting,
Speaker 1: you just kind of put it in place. Um and
Speaker 1: it it is a life saving medication when people need it.
Speaker 1: It's the choice between that and death. UM. And they
Speaker 1: are very expensive. There is a company that owns the
Speaker 1: patent because of how the EpiPen actually does the injecting.
Speaker 1: The actual medicine is very cheap and very easy to make,
Speaker 1: but it's unbelievably expensive and people die as a result
Speaker 1: of lack lack of access. UM, and you've provided a
Speaker 1: way using both kinds of this thing called a bio
Speaker 1: lab that people You've developed plans that people can build
Speaker 1: it for themselves in order to make this, and also
Speaker 1: using a three D printer, you can make UM an epipencil,
Speaker 1: which is a little less kind of a more analog version.
Speaker 1: I think, I guess you'd say, uh, no, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's equivalent. It's equivalent. It works the same way. The
Speaker 1: things that are different about it that UM are critical.
Speaker 1: The first one that you mentioned, of course, is that
Speaker 1: you can you can build it for a little over
Speaker 1: thirty dollars US, and you can reload it for about
Speaker 1: three dollars, unlike the EpiPen, which is I think it's
Speaker 1: about fifty dollars for yeah, UM, and that might be
Speaker 1: for a pair, but even so to UM. But the
Speaker 1: other two critical differences are that EpiPens are single use,
Speaker 1: so you can't test whether it's faulty or not until
Speaker 1: you use it, And there have been a lot of failures.
Speaker 1: In fact, there was a big EpiPen recall a bunch
Speaker 1: of years ago, and there were just these tragic, tragic stories.
Speaker 1: Some guy had to watch his little kid die. He
Speaker 1: had had a pair of EpiPens. The kid went into shock.
Speaker 1: He used it, the thing failed, He brought the other one.
Speaker 1: The other one failed, and they're in the air and
Speaker 1: you can't land in fifteen minutes and the little kid died,
Speaker 1: which just and I'm sure there are dozens of dozens
Speaker 1: of stories like that, that just happens to be one
Speaker 1: of the ones I know. So one of the things
Speaker 1: that's great about the epipencils because you're putting it together
Speaker 1: yourself and it only takes four parts, you can test it.
Speaker 1: You can make sure that it works as many times
Speaker 1: as you need to. You can dry running with saline
Speaker 1: and just double check that it does what it's supposed
Speaker 1: to um and so it's safer. So the fact that
Speaker 1: it's you can control yourself, you can reload it, and
Speaker 1: you can test it. All these things fix a lot
Speaker 1: of these immediate problems that come with and it still
Speaker 1: has the benefit that everybody wants from the EpiPen, which
Speaker 1: is that it doesn't require um, you know, measurement or
Speaker 1: like knowing how deep to press the needle before you
Speaker 1: depress the plunger. All of that happens automatically, and it
Speaker 1: happens very quickly. UM. And yeah, we as you say,
Speaker 1: we've got a lot of pressed for that because essentially
Speaker 1: a good timing. We've released at the same time that
Speaker 1: Heather Brush was lying to Congress about why they hit
Speaker 1: raised the price on the EpiPens and then so it
Speaker 1: was in the public eye. Yeah, and and that's that's
Speaker 1: a huge one, being able to produce that because that
Speaker 1: is I mean, there's a tremendous number of people who
Speaker 1: rely on UH EpiPens um and and I think the
Speaker 1: potential of that project is staggering UM. And there's some
Speaker 1: there's some you know, we when we talk about kind
Speaker 1: of the different people who are who are working on
Speaker 1: similar problems to you, there's also a group of people
Speaker 1: who are working on UM cracking insulin, being able to
Speaker 1: produce insulin UM. And Yeah, the Open Insulin project is
Speaker 1: an amazing group of people, incredibly important. They're yeah, they're
Speaker 1: working on mm hmm probably the largest scale public health crisis.
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of queries that we get. I
Speaker 1: think we get people asking about insulin more than anything else.
Speaker 1: And I always say, oh, yeah, they're very, very bright
Speaker 1: people already work around this. Go talk to the open
Speaker 1: insulin um and and they're just amazing. I want to
Speaker 1: move on because I want to talk about kind of
Speaker 1: the more um philosophical dimensions of some of this. But
Speaker 1: before we get into that, i'd like to so, like,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things you and I've been
Speaker 1: talking about a little bit behind the scenes is I
Speaker 1: am not a technically savvy person, but I'm I want
Speaker 1: to try and i'd like to be able to like
Speaker 1: produce an epipencil. I want to like understand this it
Speaker 1: kind of and and potentially be able to contribute UM
Speaker 1: in a more direct sense, in part because I'm curious,
Speaker 1: like how how doable actually is this? For I consider
Speaker 1: myself a pretty normal person when it comes to like
Speaker 1: technical understanding, right, Like, I'm reasonably handy, but I'm not
Speaker 1: I'm not a chemist. I'm not a I'm not a
Speaker 1: I haven't really I have no I have no prior
Speaker 1: experience three D printing or anything like that, what is
Speaker 1: what is required in terms of financial investment, and what
Speaker 1: is kind of your general estimate in terms of time
Speaker 1: to get up to you know, a kind of the
Speaker 1: level where you can start learning how to do some
Speaker 1: of this stuff. I think the barrier to entry is
Speaker 1: pretty low, depending on how you want to start. As
Speaker 1: I said, there are different avenues to doing it. You can,
Speaker 1: of course one of the one of the greatest hacks.
Speaker 1: If if anybody listening this doesn't pick up anything else,
Speaker 1: here's the best hack in terms of getting access to medication.
Speaker 1: You have a medication you don't have access to for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, assuming it comes in a capsule form, you
Speaker 1: can merely go to a chemical supplier, purchase the active
Speaker 1: pharmaceutical ingredient, wait out, put it into a capsule, and
Speaker 1: you've made your medication. That's a very simple thing, you know.
Speaker 1: That takes nothing more than being able to read a
Speaker 1: scale and scooping powder into a little you know, capsules.
Speaker 1: The next step up, there are things that you can do.
Speaker 1: They're a little more involved. If you want to build
Speaker 1: an epic pencil, again, this is three or four hearts,
Speaker 1: depending on how you count. You take the needle from
Speaker 1: one syringe needle set on you put it onto a
Speaker 1: different syringe needle set, and then you put it into
Speaker 1: this auto injector, this design for needle phobic diabetics. You
Speaker 1: load it with the up and ron and you close
Speaker 1: it up and you're done. Then if you want to
Speaker 1: step into this a little bit further, if something is
Speaker 1: so barriered for whatever reason that you can't get the
Speaker 1: actual ingredient, then you might start messing around with our
Speaker 1: micro lab. The micro lab, I would say probably takes
Speaker 1: around a hundred dollars US to build um it, but
Speaker 1: it's not super technical. Our latest version doesn't require any soldering.
Speaker 1: Everything snaps together, which is really nice. You can plug
Speaker 1: everything in UM. All the wires are just screw terminals,
Speaker 1: which is really convenient. UM And it takes some time,
Speaker 1: and you do have to load some code. But we're
Speaker 1: looking to release a a new set of documentation in
Speaker 1: the summer that will be very very stripped down of
Speaker 1: here's your bill of materials. You can order all of
Speaker 1: this stuff. Here's how you can put the disk image
Speaker 1: onto the SD card that you put in and you
Speaker 1: should start it and it will wake up and work independently. UM.
Speaker 1: We had a video of our head hardware guy actually
Speaker 1: building the micro lab from just parts that we're sitting on,
Speaker 1: laid out on a table, and I think all told
Speaker 1: it took him about forty five minutes, maybe a little
Speaker 1: bit longer, but again, like granted, this guy's a hardware
Speaker 1: specialist and he you know, designed it, so for somebody
Speaker 1: who's not done before, it might take an afternoon, but
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not a pro bitively long or involved
Speaker 1: project that you know, would take you weeks to put together,
Speaker 1: or any specialized understanding of you know, biomedical engineering or
Speaker 1: anything like that. Now, UM, I kind of want to
Speaker 1: move at this point because I think that gives people
Speaker 1: an idea of what's actually necessary and they can go
Speaker 1: to y'all's website, UM or look up you have plans
Speaker 1: on a get hub if they want to kind of
Speaker 1: look at what's what's involved, and it's um some of
Speaker 1: it seems a little daunting to me, like look looking
Speaker 1: at the construction of the bio lab, But I'm that
Speaker 1: that's going to be a project that I'll be engaging
Speaker 1: in over the next couple of weeks, so we'll keep
Speaker 1: people updated on how I do there. UM I want
Speaker 1: to move on to talk Michael about what you see
Speaker 1: as kind of the I don't know, the the the
Speaker 1: potential from kind of a revolutionary perspective, from a perspective
Speaker 1: of actually building dual power of this project. And obviously
Speaker 1: you are and I think what would would be called
Speaker 1: the early stages of this idea of kind of democratizing
Speaker 1: and decentralizing the production of life saving medications. UM. Although
Speaker 1: I guess you could argue in some ways it's kind
Speaker 1: of a return to more traditional attitudes about health care
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Yeah, there's a cyclic nature there,
Speaker 1: and in the sort of zen mind, beginner's mind, we'd
Speaker 1: like to think that the revolution is always in its
Speaker 1: beginning stages, right. Um. That to say, over the past decade,
Speaker 1: roughly looking at trying to find ways to give people
Speaker 1: more independent access that doesn't require infrastructure to medicines and
Speaker 1: medical technologies. The the hope really is to create a
Speaker 1: certain amount of cultural shift. I remember one point a
Speaker 1: friend of mine, who as a business school graduate, asked
Speaker 1: me a very sort of like business school type question
Speaker 1: where he said, how would you measure success of your project? Um?
Speaker 1: And I said, well, we cease to exist as an organization,
Speaker 1: and he kind of had this moment of like, what
Speaker 1: do you mean we shouldn't be pushing this right, the
Speaker 1: ideas that eventually the concept of managing your own health
Speaker 1: is sufficiently normalized that it's not something that has to
Speaker 1: be explained between people. But somebody says, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 1: just I just did that up in my micro lab um.
Speaker 1: In the same way that when you look at the
Speaker 1: shift that happened between oh, you know, the mid eighties
Speaker 1: in the mid nineties, where computers were this strange, scary
Speaker 1: thing that was you know, we're only accessible or usable
Speaker 1: by people who were very specialized. Is something that you know,
Speaker 1: everybody knew about and everybody kind of had and everybody
Speaker 1: sort of used. And the same sort of thing that
Speaker 1: happened between the period of time I don't know, maybe
Speaker 1: ten twelve years ago and now with with three D printing,
Speaker 1: where like stereo lithography and rapid prototyping was again the
Speaker 1: specialized thing that a bunch of people who were essentially
Speaker 1: at the machine tool industry had started to spearhead. And
Speaker 1: now you say, three D printing, everybody knows what it means.
Speaker 1: In the same sort of way, I'd very much like
Speaker 1: to see a cultural shift where when somebody is unwell,
Speaker 1: that when discussions between people happened, that instead of the
Speaker 1: have you had that looked at it, or you might
Speaker 1: instead here from somebody saying well have you read up
Speaker 1: on that? You know, to see people actually engaged in
Speaker 1: their own health and not going through this very typical
Speaker 1: process of outsourcing responsibility. Now, it's not to say that
Speaker 1: like experts aren't good people with whom to consult, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're not talking about replacing the idea of medical professionals
Speaker 1: who can help you understand what your health and diagnose
Speaker 1: and stuff like. Yeah, but there is again this drastic
Speaker 1: difference between going to a doctor and essentially just like
Speaker 1: throwing the problem on their desk and saying fixed it,
Speaker 1: call me when it's over, versus going to a doctor
Speaker 1: and saying, hey, i'd like to talk about this, I'd
Speaker 1: like to know more about what's wrong here, and I'd
Speaker 1: like to discus us what the options are and what
Speaker 1: seems best. Um that would be great on a lot
Speaker 1: of levels. And and then these questions of access to
Speaker 1: medication then become even more relevant because when you're talking
Speaker 1: with a doctor and the doctor says Okay, well we
Speaker 1: could try this therapy, but your insurance won't pay for it.
Speaker 1: This three hundred dollars. You can say, all right, well
Speaker 1: let's just do a little thought experiment and if that
Speaker 1: fell from a truck, what would I do with it?
Speaker 1: And then maybe you can go home and say, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll call you and let you know how it goes.
Speaker 1: I that's that's really my my grant, Hope. And there
Speaker 1: are so many different ways that that can play out.
Speaker 1: In fact, I'll tell you a hilarious story in regards
Speaker 1: to this, which was in I guess it was when
Speaker 1: we presented it, Hope. UM. I called Martin Shakraley's cell
Speaker 1: phone from stage UH to try and ask him what
Speaker 1: he thought about what we were doing, given that I
Speaker 1: was handing his drug out for free, UM and showing
Speaker 1: people how to make it. And he didn't answer the
Speaker 1: phone when I called him then, but he called me
Speaker 1: back a few hours later, which was really hilarious. We
Speaker 1: actually chatted for a while and the guys, I mean
Speaker 1: a little detached from reality, but he's he's no dummy, UM.
Speaker 1: And when I sort of described what we were trying
Speaker 1: to do with the micro lab, he had some interesting insights,
Speaker 1: and he said, yeah, you know, one way I can
Speaker 1: imagine that working really well is if somebody with a
Speaker 1: little more knowledge of pharmaceutical medicine were too, maybe build
Speaker 1: one of these and serve a small community. I think
Speaker 1: that could be very efficient. And I was like, that's
Speaker 1: a good saw it you chiseling bastard Um. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean that there's a degree which that's That's kind of
Speaker 1: how I see the most realistic potential. This is not
Speaker 1: every individual making all of their medicine, but kind of
Speaker 1: like you know we had during the fires last year,
Speaker 1: when when our local and state governments during the heatwave
Speaker 1: this year like completely shut the bed. We had different
Speaker 1: mutual aid collectives do things like we are providing people
Speaker 1: with like oh it's a blizzard, We're providing people with firewood.
Speaker 1: We are providing people with cooling stations because of the heat.
Speaker 1: You know, we are providing people with they've just fled
Speaker 1: their houses. We have kits that have food and basic
Speaker 1: necessities so they can get through mutual aid collectives that
Speaker 1: are like, well, we are making we specialize and we
Speaker 1: can produce this and this and this medication like these
Speaker 1: three and we have and here's the information you can
Speaker 1: find online about our process. You know that we know
Speaker 1: what we're doing, and if you need these things, you
Speaker 1: let us know and we we get them to you.
Speaker 1: And here's different ways in which people can volunteer if
Speaker 1: you want to help engage in this mutual aid process,
Speaker 1: even if you're not someone who's going to be doing
Speaker 1: a lot of the technical stuff. We need people to
Speaker 1: go pick up parts, so we need people to do this,
Speaker 1: and you can help us here, you know, And I think, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think in a similar way, right, a lot
Speaker 1: of that sort of thing is already happening in other
Speaker 1: realms right where it's the sort of thing where you
Speaker 1: you might be building something, or you you see some
Speaker 1: project on GitHub or whatever, and some there are these
Speaker 1: STL files and you go, oh, gosh, well I don't
Speaker 1: want how to do that, but oh right, x y
Speaker 1: z down the street as a three D printer. I'll
Speaker 1: go ask her. She's really good at making these things.
Speaker 1: And you say, hey, look, I have this thing. Would
Speaker 1: this be difficult to print? And with their experience, they
Speaker 1: can kind of look at me like, I know that
Speaker 1: that shouldn't be too hard. Um, you know, I I
Speaker 1: have some time this weekend, maybe I can make that
Speaker 1: for you. And in the same way, you say, hey,
Speaker 1: it looks like I seem to have this rare infection
Speaker 1: from whatever whatever, or I have this odd condition. Um,
Speaker 1: I wanted to try this medication because it might be
Speaker 1: really helpful, but it's not legal in this kind treat
Speaker 1: Do you think you can put this together? Again? You know,
Speaker 1: you call somebody and whoever's on the other lines, and so,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I have a micro lab. I can try
Speaker 1: and put a program together for that and see if
Speaker 1: I can make it for you. That sort of thing,
Speaker 1: I think is a potentially really positive avenue for that
Speaker 1: sort of thing to proliferate and again eventually to have
Speaker 1: a cultural shift where the idea of medicine and medical
Speaker 1: technology not being something that is comes down from above
Speaker 1: from some authority, but instead is something that's managed by
Speaker 1: people who are part of your community, who you already trust.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's why going to a doctor is so scary.
Speaker 1: They seem to be the arbiter of your fate. They're
Speaker 1: going to tell you whether you're well or not, and
Speaker 1: and that is just the truth, and much better to
Speaker 1: have it where people are making up their own mind
Speaker 1: based on learning about their own health and consulting with
Speaker 1: people who can give them perspective. Um. And if there's
Speaker 1: more of that, and if it's closer to the person
Speaker 1: who's actually suffering, that I think will be on the
Speaker 1: whole much better. Yeah. It's this the and this gets
Speaker 1: tangled up in a lot of the more toxic things
Speaker 1: we've seen this year, But it's this this understanding that
Speaker 1: with any given problem, if individuals trying to solve that
Speaker 1: problem have more autonomy, and part of autonomy is knowledge,
Speaker 1: that's nearly always better. Um. The problem, of course is
Speaker 1: that like we we get into this situation, we are
Speaker 1: now where some people take I'm take some people some
Speaker 1: people use I want to take control of my health
Speaker 1: care to you know, do stuff that's nonsense. And that
Speaker 1: brings us back to the question of like, yeah, you
Speaker 1: need in for the quality of the information that you're
Speaker 1: getting is very important, right because if if you're if
Speaker 1: you if your research is some YouTube video that has
Speaker 1: convinced you that you need to you know, take this
Speaker 1: this horse paste or something, then yeah, that's not good.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't change the fact that like with food,
Speaker 1: like with with everything, that you need to survive, the
Speaker 1: more of a role you have in understanding that, deciding
Speaker 1: what to do with that, understanding where it comes from
Speaker 1: and how it is produced. Um. Not just like, not
Speaker 1: only is that I think more satisfying as a human,
Speaker 1: but it's it's also critical to to your well being. UM.
Speaker 1: It's critical to like on two levels, right on two levels,
Speaker 1: because not only when your health is taken from you,
Speaker 1: it doesn't deprive you of life, but it deprives you
Speaker 1: participating in any of the acts that make life meaningful.
Speaker 1: And part of that key thing that makes life meaningful
Speaker 1: is having a participatory role in the things that decide
Speaker 1: the trajectory of your life. And so when you go
Speaker 1: to the lengths of managing your own health, two things happen.
Speaker 1: First off, your health improves, assuming you've made good decisions
Speaker 1: and get lucky. But second, you're also having a participatory
Speaker 1: role in your life, and that makes life more meaningful.
Speaker 1: And it beyond just kind of the self actualization benefits
Speaker 1: from from a perspective of actually enabling people to participate
Speaker 1: in the move for radical change in our society. One
Speaker 1: necessary element of that to any of the kind of
Speaker 1: things that we need is a belief in your own
Speaker 1: agent see and power. Um. And also and a freedom
Speaker 1: from the kind of fear that comes from feeling helpless.
Speaker 1: And there is I think probably no feeling worse in
Speaker 1: the world than feeling completely helpless about a treatable medical problem. UM.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one thing I just went through my mom,
Speaker 1: when when you get a disease where there's just nothing
Speaker 1: that science can do, right, We're like, yeah, you've got
Speaker 1: this cancer, and there there ain't ship anybody has for you.
Speaker 1: You know, that's one kind of horrible, but I think
Speaker 1: it's a lot less terrible than you. I have this
Speaker 1: thing that we can deal with, but I either can't
Speaker 1: afford it or I don't know that I'll be able
Speaker 1: to afford it. I had a horrible I lost my
Speaker 1: job in my healthcare in seventeen and so did a
Speaker 1: person who was on my healthcare with me that I
Speaker 1: love very much. And I got this, you know, hired
Speaker 1: here in healthcare a couple of years later. And it
Speaker 1: happened that a month before the the I started my
Speaker 1: health care at this new job, this person who was
Speaker 1: on my healthcare with me UM diagnosed with a brain
Speaker 1: tumor and thankfully not a cancerous one, but the one
Speaker 1: that they had to take medication for that would have
Speaker 1: been would have bankrupted us, you know, without the without insurance.
Speaker 1: And thankfully it worked out fine, the timing worked out okay.
Speaker 1: But there's not a week that goes by that I
Speaker 1: don't and it it's it's it is something that makes
Speaker 1: you less willing to take risks, less willing to participate
Speaker 1: in in things that because you have in the back
Speaker 1: of your head, well, I have to I have to
Speaker 1: keep this job, I have to keep this insurance, I
Speaker 1: have to y yeah that And that's another thing that
Speaker 1: I find so heartbreaking. There's so many people that I've
Speaker 1: I've met totally outside of my activism who lament about
Speaker 1: working a job that they hate, and I say, gosh,
Speaker 1: for you know, I mean, you consider just bailing on
Speaker 1: it and looking for something else and trying something else.
Speaker 1: And they have this total paralysis of saying, but if
Speaker 1: I quit my job, I won't have healthcare mhm and
Speaker 1: and and mind you like, these were people who were
Speaker 1: incredibly healthy. These were not people who had any regular
Speaker 1: visits to healthcare. They're just scared that if something comes up,
Speaker 1: they want people to handle it. And it's it's a
Speaker 1: perfectly well grounded fear. But as you point out, what
Speaker 1: this does is it works as this sort of shadow
Speaker 1: oppressive mechanism to keep people from exploring, trying things, as
Speaker 1: you say, taking risks, or or just doing things that
Speaker 1: don't involve a an optimization toward a stable state of
Speaker 1: maybe just like yeah, maybe I'll start a small business
Speaker 1: and yeah, it probably will fail, but that will be
Speaker 1: a cool adventure. And most people, you know, so many people,
Speaker 1: maybe not most, but many, many people, um get just
Speaker 1: terrified into this state of inertial paralysis. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: contributes to people being afraid to take to the street
Speaker 1: to protest the police because maybe they get arrested, and
Speaker 1: maybe they get fired, and then you know, maybe their
Speaker 1: kid can't afford their Like there's a thousand ways. I think, honestly,
Speaker 1: the fear of losing your health care is in some
Speaker 1: ways as great a greater counterrevolutionary force than any law
Speaker 1: enforcement agency could hope to be, because the fear is
Speaker 1: so much more immediate to so many people. Nobody talks
Speaker 1: about that. And thank you so much for mentioning it,
Speaker 1: because it's something that like, oftentimes I try to bring
Speaker 1: up when I'm discussing things in public for it, and
Speaker 1: and oftentimes people kind of raise an eyebrow on me
Speaker 1: and be like, that's what's the big deal, And I'm like, no, no,
Speaker 1: Like you look two layers deep. There's something that's really
Speaker 1: working against people being able to exercise protests, and it's, uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's this really silent, terrifying force that seems
Speaker 1: to underlie everything. And if you could alleviate that, if
Speaker 1: you can get to the point where people are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: the hell with it, you know, I don't need a
Speaker 1: job to take care of me, then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: so many possibilities just blossomed in the mind. Yeah, if
Speaker 1: you have, like it, say, if you're a parent who
Speaker 1: has a child with you know who, who's insolent dependent. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of difference in my mind between
Speaker 1: the fact that between someone holding a gun to your
Speaker 1: head and your boss being able to fire you and
Speaker 1: take away your your kids access to that insulent there's
Speaker 1: not a tremendous moral difference to me. Um, I'd say
Speaker 1: getting a gun to your head is actually more likely
Speaker 1: to survive that for it's less inevitable. You could talk
Speaker 1: your way out of that, and yeah, whatever, but there
Speaker 1: are any number of things that might go wrong there.
Speaker 1: But if somebody takes takes away your insulin, that's the
Speaker 1: end of the story. Yeah, I guess the more salient
Speaker 1: point than the comparison issues. They're both acts of violence,
Speaker 1: and in every way that's meaningful, I think they're both
Speaker 1: acts of violence. And one way that when I rail
Speaker 1: against intellectual property as a concept and intellectual property law,
Speaker 1: the example that I give is they say, if somebody
Speaker 1: were dying and you knew how to save them, would
Speaker 1: you ever not tell them how and just watch them die? Say,
Speaker 1: oh no, that idea belongs to me, and I'm not
Speaker 1: going to share unless you pay me. Like no human
Speaker 1: being that I think I've ever heard of would do that.
Speaker 1: And yet this happens every day because we've sort of
Speaker 1: carried these questions of copy into patents and despite the
Speaker 1: fact that they are hundreds of years old and not
Speaker 1: applicable anymore, assuming they were ever applicable, and people just
Speaker 1: die because people say, oh, well, we can make more
Speaker 1: money if we do it this way. There's a fascinating
Speaker 1: thing going on there when you really drilled into that idea.
Speaker 1: Because I suspect. There are a lot of people who
Speaker 1: have who are are integral in propping up this system,
Speaker 1: both of kind of medical intellectual property and of just
Speaker 1: like the pharmaceutical industry, the way that it works people
Speaker 1: in politics, huge numbers of people who are integral in
Speaker 1: some facet of keeping that going, who also, were they
Speaker 1: to see an individual and immediate medical distress, would never
Speaker 1: think of like try getting their debit card number or
Speaker 1: whatever like asking them, would would without thinking attempt because
Speaker 1: that's what people do, and it's I mean, this is
Speaker 1: where we get into kind of some of these more
Speaker 1: philosophical anarchist ideas about what hierarchy does and what these
Speaker 1: structures do, because structures enable people to participate in evil
Speaker 1: that they never would as an individual. Um, yeah, there's
Speaker 1: this easy route that many easy routes that pop up
Speaker 1: that allow people or force i should say force people
Speaker 1: to be displaced from their humanity in that sort of
Speaker 1: way where yes, of course, you you help somebody up
Speaker 1: off of subway tracks if they've fallen. Yes of course,
Speaker 1: if somebody were drowning, you drag them out and save them.
Speaker 1: And yet just because it's a degree removed and it's
Speaker 1: mediated by an agency. Suddenly it's so easy to forget
Speaker 1: and ignore and be sort of complicit. And yeah, and
Speaker 1: I just to go back around to what four Thieves
Speaker 1: is doing and what y'all are doing it. It's one
Speaker 1: of the few projects going on right now that fits
Speaker 1: what my idealistic nineteen year old brain thought the Internet
Speaker 1: would be sixteen fifteen, Like when I when it was,
Speaker 1: when things were newer and a little less We're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is like one of these days, Well, this kind
Speaker 1: of ship's gonna happen um. And that is I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's not without value from again a
Speaker 1: revolutionary perspective, the fact that it is pretty rad. You
Speaker 1: know well, I mean I will not deny the fact
Speaker 1: that it feels good, you know. There. I think that
Speaker 1: I think that we all grew up with that sort
Speaker 1: of hope and belief that we were gonna open these
Speaker 1: new doors and they were going to be these new
Speaker 1: possibilities and things that we have been reading about in
Speaker 1: science fiction. We're going to become real and and there's
Speaker 1: there's a great satisfaction in not just witnessing your childhood
Speaker 1: dreams become realities, but actually, you know, having a hand
Speaker 1: in it. Uh, it's there's there's something quite satisfying about that.
Speaker 1: I will yeah, I will admit, well, I think that's
Speaker 1: a pretty good point to close out on today. I
Speaker 1: don't need to take up too much more of your
Speaker 1: time right now, Michael. But but as I told people,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be I'm gonna be trying to get into
Speaker 1: some of this because I find it just both fascinating
Speaker 1: and incredibly hopeful. Um. In a world where it seems like, uh,
Speaker 1: there are constantly forces conspiring to strip people of their
Speaker 1: ability to take control of critical aspects of their lives,
Speaker 1: you and your your colleagues in this are trying to
Speaker 1: give people opportunities to take some some power back for themselves,
Speaker 1: and I just think that's it's pretty dope. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, and see your listeners. If there are
Speaker 1: people out there who like what we're doing and you
Speaker 1: want to support the project, please go find somebody who
Speaker 1: needs your help but doesn't deserve it, and then help
Speaker 1: them anyway. Yeah. Yeah, that's always a good thing to do. Um, Michael,
Speaker 1: anything else, any like a thing else you want to
Speaker 1: kind of put this is normally this section where people
Speaker 1: plug websites or projects or anything, you've got anything in
Speaker 1: particularly you want to throw out there right now. Uh sure,
Speaker 1: We're hoping to do a bunch of big releases in
Speaker 1: the summer um, so look for those. In the meantime,
Speaker 1: we're always looking for help, So if you're out there
Speaker 1: and you'd like to be assisted in the project, uh,
Speaker 1: please get in touch. There's the contact us page on
Speaker 1: the website. And by the way, this do not have
Speaker 1: to be a technical person we're looking for currently, we're
Speaker 1: looking for writers. We have a lot of documentation that
Speaker 1: we need to do, So if you're out there and
Speaker 1: you have you know, background in in language, then that
Speaker 1: would be great. If if you're somebody who feels that
Speaker 1: you're entirely without skills, please get in touch. We have
Speaker 1: any number of endless small tasks that just need to
Speaker 1: be taken care of because we don't have enough people.
Speaker 1: So if you'd like to participate, we'd love to have you.
Speaker 1: Please get in touch and in the meantime, keep each
Speaker 1: other healthy, keep each other. Thank you so much, Michael,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for having me. It could happen here
Speaker 1: as a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from Cool Zone Media, visit our website. Cool zone media
Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,
Speaker 1: you can find sources for It could happen here, Updated
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening.