1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm Rebecca Levoy and this is you Can't Make This Up. 2 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: You Can't Make This Up as the podcast where we 3 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. 4 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: On today's episode, we take a closer look at the 5 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil the Seven M 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: TikTok Cult. 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: I still love dance, but I feel like it's just different, 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 2: Like it was Miranda and I together. 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 3: On this journey and now I'm alone. 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: Today we're talking to director Derek Donin and executive producer 11 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: Jessica Acevedo. Melanie and Miranda Wilking were TikTok's favorite dancing 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: sisters until Melanie left the act to perform for the 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: seven M management company. Robert Schen was more than an 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: agent to his famous dancers. He was a spiritual guide 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: who instilled the tenants of the Chicaina church he founded 16 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: decades earlier. When Miranda's family went public with their story, 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: many online fans believe the Dancers for seven M were 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: all in a cult. As other members escaped and worked 19 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: to rebuild their lives, it wasn't until they came together 20 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: to stop the cycle of their abuser that the real 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: healing began dancing for the Devil. The seven M TikTok 22 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: Cult tells the story of the coercive church, its former members, 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: and the performers still dancing online. It exposes the diabolical 24 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: tactics used by cult like organizations to exert control over people, 25 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: as well as the lane's families will go to keep 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: their loved ones safe. 27 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 4: I don't want to think which is still that weak, submissive, obedient, 28 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 4: afraid person. 29 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 5: I want him to know I will do this, even 30 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 5: for the last thing that I do. 31 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: And I'm joined now by series director Derek Donan and 32 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: executive producer Jessica Acevedo. 33 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: Welcome to you can't make this up. 34 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having us. 35 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 3: Thank you so, Jessica. 36 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: How did the story of the seven M Cult get 37 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: your attention? Did it come across your social media feed 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: or did you learn about it some other way? 39 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: I actually learned about it from a director and dance 40 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: studio owner Tim Milgram, I had worked with him in 41 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: the past, and a fellow producer, Breonna Frapphart. So they'd 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: actually told me that there was a lot of buzz 43 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: in the dance community around seven M and that one 44 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: of the families had gone live to. 45 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: Try to reconnect with their daughters. 46 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 2: So of course that was the Wilkings family, and that's 47 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: the Wilkings live video. So after I'd watched that, like 48 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: most people, I was like, what the heck is going 49 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: on here? So later that night I ended up getting 50 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: on the phone with the Wilkings and ended up talking 51 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: to them for quite a few hours actually, and ultimately 52 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: that conversation kick started us investigating seven M more deeply, 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: and we realized it was like much, much bigger than 54 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: we had ever thought. 55 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: So you start the series with the story a lot 56 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: of people know, but not everybody. I mean I certainly 57 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: didn't know a lot about this, but it has to 58 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: do with these famous TikTok dancers. But we learn in 59 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: the series that the story started a long time before 60 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: it broke on social media. So can you talk to 61 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: me about the origins of the Chicina Church, something that 62 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: we learn about in the series. 63 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, Honestly, the origin story for the church is still 64 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 4: a bit of a mystery in terms of how exactly 65 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 4: Robert put it together, but we know it's been going 66 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 4: on for roughly twenty five years. In fact, in the show, 67 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 4: as you see you know, we're with Priscilla and her 68 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 4: sister Melanie, who are part of that original group of members, 69 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 4: and you know, we start the show with the same 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 4: sort of entry point that we all had, which is 71 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 4: hearing about this on social media, seeing that it's impacting 72 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 4: these young dancers, this group that sort of masperating as 73 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 4: a management company that all of these young dancers have 74 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 4: been pulled into. And that's really what the first episode 75 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 4: is about. And it's not until the end of the 76 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 4: episode that we sort of reveal that this is something 77 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 4: that does go back, you know, two and a half decades, 78 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 4: and we widen the scope into that much broader story. 79 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: So, Jessica, can you talk about Robert Shin. Do we 80 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: know what he was doing before running this church? Like 81 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: what was this man about? 82 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: So from what we know, he was actually a medical 83 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: doctor of some sort. He had lived in Canada, and 84 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: from conversations that we had with people, he had moved 85 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: to la after having a calling from God and wanting 86 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: to change his profession completely. So he left medicine and 87 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: then just came in and started this church. And while 88 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: he was starting the church, there was also a real 89 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 2: estate component to it as well. I maybe wouldn't say 90 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 2: it an entrepreneur of some sort that just wanted to 91 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 2: kind of get his hands into quite a few different industries. 92 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 2: It was never really clear. We don't have an exact 93 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: answer for exactly what he was doing. We tried to 94 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: investigate a little bit further on the medical practice of 95 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 2: it all, but never really landed on it. But from 96 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: our understanding, he was in medicine and then moved here 97 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 2: to the States and started chakaina. 98 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 4: Can you talk about. 99 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: What he would say, Derek, about the consequences of not 100 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: following his teachings, about the consequences of not tithing, about 101 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: the consequences of leaving, because I found that really striking. 102 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 4: The first is this sort of public rebuking where he 103 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 4: gets you on the pulpit and calls you out, shames 104 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 4: you in front of the rest of the congregation, makes 105 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 4: you feel as low as humanly possible, and encourages the 106 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 4: rest of the congregation to do the same if you. 107 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 3: Didn't do what you're told. 108 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 5: He would call you out when he's in the pulpit, 109 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 5: call your name, and call out everything you've done wrong. 110 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 5: Everyone just stares at you, and so then you feel 111 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 5: like so small and you feel embarrassed because now nobody's 112 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 5: talking to you, they're not even saying hi. 113 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 4: That might mean excluding you from other activities with the group, 114 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 4: you know, sort of forcing you into doing things that 115 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 4: you might not want to do or might be sort 116 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 4: of less desirable, you know, calling women out about the 117 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 4: food that they're eating, if he doesn't like their figure, 118 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 4: sort of constantly making quirks about, you know, how they look, 119 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 4: what they're wearing, what they're eating. For the dancers, it 120 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 4: might mean withholding jobs, it might mean, you know, withholding money, 121 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 4: and so what that creates as an environment where you 122 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 4: want to get back into his favor. As he's doing that, 123 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 4: he's praising those who are obeying, who are giving more 124 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 4: tithing or more offerings to the Man of God. It's 125 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 4: really important then if you're one of those people who's 126 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 4: being rebuked, who's sort of on the outside, to try 127 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 4: to get back into that inner circle and you're then 128 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 4: on your best behavior. He also creates this climate where 129 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 4: everybody sort of ratting on each other. They all, as 130 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 4: you see in the show, have to keep their mentors 131 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 4: abreast of everything that they're doing and all of those 132 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 4: messages he's reading. So he now has sort of has 133 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 4: this inside scoop as to what everybody's doing all day, 134 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 4: every day, using that against you and creating this culture 135 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 4: where if you do something that's against the rules, you 136 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 4: know it's going to be you're going to get reported on. 137 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 4: You know, that's going to get back to your mentor 138 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 4: that's going to then get back to Robert and he's 139 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 4: going to then use that against you. So everybody's sort 140 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 4: of always walking on eggshells, deeply distrustful of everybody around 141 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 4: them and trying to stay on their best behavior, not 142 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 4: knowing who they can trust, what they can say, and 143 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 4: what's ultimately going to sort of backfire. 144 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: Now I want to talk about this TikTok dancing culture 145 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: because for those who aren't on TikTok, or for people 146 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: like me who primarily get served up dog videos and 147 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: videos of people parodying home improvement stuff, there is this 148 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: like elite dancing content on TikTok, not just like Dad's dancing, 149 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: but like the elite dancers dancing. Can you talk about 150 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: TikTok has changed opportunities for up and coming dancers. I mean, 151 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: before this platform, it was about going on auditions and 152 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: hoping to be cast in things right, and this platform 153 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: has really changed the game, Jessica, Can you talk about that? 154 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the best to my knowledge is that 155 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: it has changed the industry. Even the way that I 156 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: believe artists release music. It's almost with a TikTok dance 157 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: component attached to it. So you have all of these 158 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: young people striving to be the first or the one 159 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: that's going to launch the video or be part of 160 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 2: that small elite group that makes it go viral, whether 161 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 2: that be the song or the dance specifically. So with 162 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: that there also comes all these other opportunities with sponsorships 163 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: and with brands that are coming in to look to 164 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: these TikTok dancers to help promote. So I think it's 165 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: just a different way. It's a different medium of how 166 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: we are ingesting content and how brands are utilizing this 167 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: platform to promote. So I could understand how someone could 168 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: see that as an opportunity, but it's just unfortunate because 169 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: then that could also be taken advantage of. 170 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: So isn't the part of the issue, Derek, that Like 171 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: from the artist perspective, you know, it's the modernization that 172 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: is like the hard thing to connect, Right, there's the opportunity. 173 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: There's the platform, but how do you then earn a 174 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: living like we see that in the documentary, Like I'm 175 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: out there, but I'm still sleeping on friends' couches. This, 176 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: I mean, this reminds me a lot of the nineties 177 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: when you had all these young talented singers and then 178 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: there was this wave of predatory producers creating boy bands. 179 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: Can you talk about the dancer perspective here? 180 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's really important because there is a 181 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 4: sort of general perception when you look at something like this, 182 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 4: to say, how are these people just so gullible? How 183 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 4: could they not see it? How could they get pulled in? 184 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 4: I would that could never happen to me, right, ten 185 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 4: out of ten times, if you talk to somebody on 186 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 4: the street, your friends, that would be the response, Right, 187 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 4: that could never happen to me. And it was really 188 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 4: important for us to humanize the experience, for us to 189 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 4: see that it can that it can happen to somebody 190 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 4: from all walks of life. So you want you have 191 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 4: to think about this perspective. As a young dancer who's 192 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 4: coming from a community wherever you grew up, you're probably 193 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 4: the best at what you do, right, you've been dancing 194 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 4: competitively or performing in that community growing up, and you're 195 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 4: the star, and so you have big dreams. You want 196 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 4: to make it big. You come to Los Angeles in 197 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 4: pursuit of that dream, and all of a sudden, you 198 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 4: are now one of a million people who are just 199 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 4: as talented as you, auditioning for the same roles. And 200 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 4: social media is sort of that great equalizer, right. It's 201 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 4: where you can create a name for yourself and a 202 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 4: brand for yourself on your own right. And now, obviously, 203 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 4: as we know, it's become an industry and there are 204 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 4: managers and agents and professionals that will help you grow 205 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 4: that brand. But you really can be discovered online and 206 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 4: that's really exciting. But what that means is that you're 207 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 4: content has to stand out, it has to look professional, 208 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 4: it has to have great music, it has to be 209 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 4: edited right, and so all of a sudden, now there 210 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 4: is immense pressure. So I'm imagining this dancer perspective of 211 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 4: being quite isolating coming to this big city, going to 212 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 4: these auditions, trying to find community, and feeling really alone 213 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 4: and struggling, and so to all of a sudden is 214 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 4: have this opportunity to move into a house with other young, 215 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 4: like minded people who are all doing the same thing, 216 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 4: who have positive morals, right, who sort of believe the 217 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 4: same sort of ideals about the world that you might have. 218 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 4: Share those ideals with you. You know, they're not partying 219 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 4: and getting into drugs and drinking, but they really just 220 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 4: care about dancing. They're passionate, they care about God and 221 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 4: their walk with God like you might. And you have 222 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 4: somebody who's going to be filming that content for you, 223 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 4: it's going to look amazing. Who's going to edit it, 224 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 4: who's going to give you music, who's going to deal 225 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 4: with the paperwork and the management side of it. All 226 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 4: you have to do then is focus on your craft, 227 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 4: and to do that surrounded by people who you care about, 228 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 4: who are supporting you. That sounds like a pretty good deal. 229 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 4: I can understand from that perspective, then, how I would 230 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 4: be pulled into a group like that, where again, on 231 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 4: the surface, you're not walking into a cult, right, You're 232 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 4: walking into a group of like minded people who are saying, hey, 233 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 4: and we also pray over here at this church. You know, 234 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 4: in my mind, yeah, that sounds like something that I 235 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 4: want to do. It's not only going to benefit my career, 236 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 4: but benefit me as a person too. And then slowly 237 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 4: that control happens and you're not even seeing it happen 238 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 4: because again, your brand is growing, you're getting more and 239 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 4: more followers, you're getting opportunities that you didn't get before. 240 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 4: You're probably pocketing a lot more money. And that's Robert's messaging, right, 241 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 4: the more you give, the more you get return. And 242 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 4: so they're getting more and more jobs, they're giving more 243 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 4: and more back to the church. But in many ways 244 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 4: that's then validating his message because he's saying, see, you 245 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 4: gave me all of this last week, all this tithing, 246 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 4: all this offering, and now look at this brand deal. 247 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 4: You just got this right. And it sort of happened 248 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 4: at this perfect flash point during the pandemic when everybody 249 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 4: was kind of home. TikTok was exploding, people were seeking 250 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 4: this content out, so it's sort of this perfect storm. 251 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: Family is a recurring theme in this series, you know, 252 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: the bond with these kids with each other, but also 253 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: the bond with families. And you now have also two 254 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: pairs of sisters in the documentary. So let's start with 255 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: one of those, Miranda and Melanie Wilking, their parents Dean 256 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: and Kelly. So I'm curious. You know, we heard a 257 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: little bit about this in the documentary, but their story 258 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: really broke through because they spoke out, I think in 259 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: the very medium on which Miranda and Melanie sort of 260 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: found fame. Can you talk about the breakthrough of their story, 261 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: why it broke through, and how it amplified the seven 262 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: m story? Jessica like, can you talk about that moment? 263 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's rare. 264 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: It's rare that you see a family be so vulnerable 265 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 2: and willing to go on an Instagram live and kind 266 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: of put that all out there. 267 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 3: We don't know what to do anymore. I love this 268 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 3: girl right here. She has been our rock and she 269 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: is our pride and joy. But we have two daughters. 270 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: We don't just have one, and we will not fight 271 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: the staff fighting for our other one too. 272 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 3: No, no way, they messed with the wrong family. 273 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 4: We're not going away. 274 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: It's important that people know that the Wilkins had tried 275 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: to get in contact with Miranda for a little over 276 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: a year, so there was that distance that was happening 277 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: for quite some time. So really that Instagram life for them, 278 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: it felt like their last hope. And so even though 279 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 2: that's where it started. The backstory for them is much 280 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: further than that. So we were made aware of it, 281 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 2: and I think just naturally how social media works now, 282 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: it's just things go viral, and when you see a 283 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: family being viral, when you know that these young women 284 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: had had quite a bit of a following, it just 285 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 2: started to like spread like wildfire. So one social account 286 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 2: picked it up, another social account, then you had big 287 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: media outlets picking it up as well. So I think 288 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: that was just the kind of catalyst to everything unraveling 289 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: at that point. So I think it picked up even 290 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: faster than they had even imagined and that they had 291 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: ever thought, because ultimately their objective was just to get 292 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 2: back in contact with their daughter, So it was never 293 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: for any of this. This was not what was motivating 294 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 2: them by any means. If anything, was kind of quite 295 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: the opposite. They were quite hesitant and fearful that any 296 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: more exposure would lose more contact with their daughter because 297 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: after the live there was a lot of repercussions. There 298 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: was a lot of divide that was happening between Miranda 299 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: and the family, even more so than they had already 300 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: been experiencing. So that was really difficult for them to navigate. 301 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: But yes, I think the live was their kind of 302 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: last ditch effort to try to get in contact with 303 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: the Miranda, to reconnect with her in some way, and 304 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: then all of these other accounts just picked it up 305 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: and then it went viral way faster than they had 306 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: even imagined. 307 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: Now, before they did the live, I noticed that Melanie 308 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: was keeping up a ruse of sorts, as if she 309 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: and Miranda still had a good relationship and as if 310 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: Miranda was taking a break and could come back. Was 311 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: that an attempt to sort of like keep the door open, 312 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: just sort of say, like, I didn't think she was 313 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: keeping up the ruse, by the way, in order to 314 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: keep the brand alive and keep making money, because when 315 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: you look at it after you sort of see what happened, 316 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: it really sort of seems like maybe she'll come back, 317 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: Maybe she'll come back. 318 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 3: Am I reading that right? Yeah? 319 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: I think it was always about reconnecting, and so Melanie never, 320 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: from our conversations, she never wanted to separate from her sister, 321 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 2: and so I think, yes, it was about keeping that 322 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 2: door open in hopes that they would reconnect. 323 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 4: Imagine being I have two sons who are very close 324 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 4: they're much younger, obviously five and two years old, but 325 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 4: they're very, very close. We have a very tight knit family, 326 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 4: and I'm trying to imagine the experience of one of 327 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 4: them dropping off the face of the map that on 328 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 4: its own would be horrifying, but then to see them 329 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 4: posting content day after day, so I can see that 330 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 4: they're alive. I can see in many ways they're thriving 331 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 4: every single day. They're posting new videos. But they've changed 332 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 4: their phone number, they've changed their address, they're not responding 333 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 4: to texts, emails, phone calls. I don't even know where 334 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: they are. I can't even go knock on the door 335 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 4: if I wanted to. I'm trying to imagine what that 336 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 4: experience might feel like, and that's something we wanted to 337 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 4: try and show in the movie. And so from Melanie's perspective, 338 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 4: of course, I think she wanted to keep the door open, 339 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 4: but also what other choice did she have. The goal 340 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 4: was not to go public with this. They didn't have 341 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 4: new content to post, So her two options are go 342 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 4: public and let the world know, or keep up the 343 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 4: ruse and keep the door open and hope that she 344 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 4: can work some thing out with her sister, and she 345 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 4: tried that for as long as she possibly could, and 346 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 4: as just said, they were doing everything they could behind 347 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 4: the scenes, and it was out of pure desperation, you know, 348 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 4: that they finally went live as a sort of last 349 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 4: ditch attempt to reach their daughter, and they did right. 350 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 4: It provoked a response, and they weren't looking for a 351 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 4: big public drama, but that really did come out of 352 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 4: having no other options, nowhere else to go, right. 353 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: So, Derek, your documentary makes a big shift, you said, 354 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: the stage, Dean and Kelly sort of recreate for us 355 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: the investigations that they did, you know, trying to find 356 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: out where Miranda was. But then there's this shift in 357 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: the documentary where it becomes more of a real time story. 358 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 3: Can you talk about that. 359 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: Were they reluctant to sort of let the cameras in 360 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: on their real time experiences or were they were they 361 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: were they willing to do that knowing that the camera 362 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: being present made a difference the last time that they 363 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: wanted their story to be a public one and hoping 364 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: to make a breakthrough. 365 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 4: It was part of the vision from the very beginning, 366 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 4: and we spent Jess and I both spent so many 367 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 4: hours with all of the subjects before we started rolling cameras, 368 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 4: so that when we were there with cameras that trust 369 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 4: had been established, that comfort level had been established. It 370 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 4: was really important for us to show in real time 371 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 4: what it feels like to lose a loved one and 372 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 4: to desperately and try and get them out. 373 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: Everything gets worse, but as. 374 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 4: Loving parents, what can we do or how can we 375 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 4: get them back? 376 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 3: The goal these adult children is to keep the minds 377 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 3: of communication open. 378 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 4: That I think separates this from you know, the dozen 379 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 4: or so other cult documentaries that are out there, which 380 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 4: are generally retrospective looks back. But we came into the 381 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 4: story as it was evolving and was really important for 382 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 4: us to capture it in real time and create an 383 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 4: experience for the audience that felt very human and visceral, 384 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 4: and allow them to see the pain and desperation that 385 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 4: the families are going through, not just see it, but 386 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 4: feel it and live it with them, because ultimately that 387 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 4: is then something I think that becomes much more relatable 388 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 4: and ultimately, you know, drives a more urgent call to action. 389 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 4: So no, that was something that we had talked about 390 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 4: from the very beginning, and ultimately the decision for the 391 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 4: families to participate was out of a wanting desperately to 392 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 4: do anything they could to reunite their families, and this 393 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 4: being that sort of last ditch sort of hope that 394 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 4: maybe if they told their story and in some ways 395 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 4: use the film to talk directly to their daughters in 396 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 4: the Wilking case or son and the Rihano case, that 397 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 4: maybe they'd be able to break through in a way 398 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 4: they hadn't, you know, with all of their other attempts 399 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 4: in the past. And also to help others who are 400 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 4: out there going through a similar experience. I think it 401 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 4: was really important for them to say this is our 402 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 4: experience and we want to be a cautionary tale of sorts. 403 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 4: And also, finally, I'll just add that from a production standpoint, 404 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 4: you know, often those Verita shoots, the sort of fly 405 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 4: on the Wall shoots, were just a three person crew, 406 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 4: you know, me, Jess and a sound person. We didn't 407 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 4: come in with you know, lights and a DP and 408 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 4: various crew members that you might typically expect. It was 409 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 4: very very small and intimate and the same three people 410 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 4: that were there day in and day out, so that 411 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 4: we could always sort of stay within what the subjects 412 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 4: were comfortable with. 413 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: It was while we were having those conversations, it was 414 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: wanting the audience to feel what we were feeling in 415 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 2: the moment, and that was there was so many oh 416 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: shit moments, if you will, along the way as we 417 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 2: started to investigate this. I mean when the day dancers 418 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 2: got out, we were already months into the development and 419 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 2: the conversations, and it wasn't initially that they were going 420 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,239 Speaker 2: to be a part of this because they were all 421 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: still in there. 422 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: That was the hope. 423 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 4: Wow. 424 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 3: And so when the dancers got. 425 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: Out, it was this moment that, oh my gosh, there's 426 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: dancers getting out. And of course, even from our perspective, 427 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: were like, is this real? 428 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:21,479 Speaker 3: Is this the ruse? 429 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: Because whenever it seemed that social media would state something 430 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 2: about Robert, there seemed to have been a response from 431 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 2: Robert's side. So even we were like, is this real? 432 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: Did the dancers really get out? And so sitting down 433 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 2: with Kalia and I actually met her in Vegas and 434 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 2: we sat down in a fuss shop for a few 435 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: hours that had conversations. We both had our guards up 436 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 2: because she had heard about this media from Robert and 437 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 2: how essentially for lack of better words, we're the bad guys. 438 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 2: And I had my guard up because I wasn't sure 439 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 2: if this was me being pulled into one of Robert's 440 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 2: schemes if you will. 441 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: Right, no, right, the schemes that we hear about in 442 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: his audio that we hear in the film. So I 443 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: have a question about the art of this. I have 444 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: watched a lot of documentaries with a lot of b roll, 445 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: and what you have here, and something that you've created 446 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: here is really really special. You have these interstitial, gorgeous 447 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: dance scenes with some of your subjects. You have them 448 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: with Melanie, you have them with former church members. It 449 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: really reminds me as if you were that you're not 450 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: just talking about young people who were involved in something 451 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: really really scary and they are victims of something, but 452 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: that they are also exceptionally talented young people. They're just 453 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: exceptional in many ways. I would love to hear about 454 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,239 Speaker 1: the decision to do it that way and what it 455 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: was like filming those Sure. 456 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 4: What I've learned as a doc filmmaker is that often 457 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 4: the most powerful moments are what's read between the lines. 458 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 4: Often it's a look on somebody's face, where it's the 459 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 4: way that a line is delivered. Often I do a 460 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 4: lot of writing as I'm editing, but then you get 461 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 4: into the the actual editing process and you realize that 462 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 4: it's not just about the words that are being said 463 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 4: and what's on the page, but how it's felt and interpreted. 464 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 4: And again, sometimes it's about what's not said. And so 465 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 4: when we started this process knowing that we were going to, 466 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 4: especially once more of the dancers sort of signed on 467 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 4: to the project and agreed to tell their stories, it 468 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 4: was sort of immediate for Justin and I to allow 469 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 4: their dancing to help tell their story. Right. It is 470 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 4: one of the oldest forms of self expression, something that 471 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 4: we as humans have been doing for thousands of years, 472 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 4: and so it was really important for us to allow 473 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 4: them to tell their own story, not only in their 474 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 4: own words, but true this form of self expression. And 475 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 4: that was something, of course that they were all really 476 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 4: excited about, you know, invariably that we used in almost 477 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 4: all of these scenes or the moments where they're just freestyling, right. 478 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 4: Some of them came with sort of choreographed pieces, but 479 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 4: we talked through the emotions that we were hoping to convey. 480 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 4: We talked through what scenes we were going to be 481 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 4: using this dance footage for so that was something that 482 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 4: was in their mind. And then we started throwing sort 483 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 4: of curve balls at them and playing different music than 484 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 4: they had prepared, and that's where we got I think, 485 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 4: the best stuff because it was raw and honest and 486 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 4: from the heart, and you really feel that emotion and 487 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 4: it says so much more than can be said in 488 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 4: words because it is coming straight from the heart. It 489 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 4: is their sort of purest expression of how they're feeling. 490 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: So later in the series, we meet another pair of 491 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: sisters integral to the story, Melanie and Priscilla, and their 492 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: involvement goes back to the early days of the Chicaina Church. 493 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: Priscilla stayed for many years, but Melanie got out. She 494 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: reveals that Shin's bagdis back then, you know, weren't just financial, 495 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: but they included coerced sex, sexual assault. Are these allegations 496 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: that were well publicized before your series. 497 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 4: Well, Priscilla and her sister, you know, many of the 498 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 4: older members weren't the focus of a lot of the 499 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 4: press coverage, So I think some of the details that 500 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 4: we reveal in the show hadn't been publicized. That said, 501 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 4: there were a lot of brave voices who had come forward. 502 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 4: Kylie's experience had been publicized, so some of the allegations 503 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 4: were out there. Some of the reporting done by you know, 504 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 4: some of the internet sleuths and reporters that you see 505 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 4: in the show had uncovered some of that information. So 506 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 4: some of it was out there. But I don't think 507 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 4: the details that we sort of uncover in the show 508 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 4: were out there. And even since, I've heard more allegations 509 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 4: that have come directly to me from former members who 510 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 4: didn't participate in the documentary who've shared their. 511 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 3: Experiences as well. 512 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 2: There were some of the slu's accounts, and there were 513 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: some reporters that had spoke about it, it wasn't really widespread. 514 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: A lot of people didn't really know about it. 515 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 2: But outside of the Lee sisters and Kylie's account, there 516 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: were more people that had come forward that weren't a 517 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 2: part of the doc that spoke out about their abuses, 518 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: and we had conversations with other women that had chosen 519 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: not to be a part of the documentary but have 520 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 2: maybe spoken to different media outlets. But it wasn't highly 521 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't fully out there, but because it 522 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: was a story in real time, We just slowly started 523 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 2: to see people come forward, and we actually had some 524 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 2: women say like, thank you for speaking out. I thought 525 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 2: I would never talk about this, like I had put 526 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: it away and thought I would just live with this 527 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 2: for the rest of my life, and it gave them 528 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 2: an opportunity to share their side of the story. It 529 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: was there here and there, but not highly publicized. 530 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: Jessica, can you talk about what seems to be a 531 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: really complicated relationship between Melanie and Priscilla. Loving relationship, but 532 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,479 Speaker 1: a complicated relationship in particular. I'm thinking of the scene 533 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: where they have this argument in public. They both have 534 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: strong feelings, you know, about themselves, about their experiences in 535 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: this cult and their implicated feelings. Priscilla in particular expresses 536 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: some very complicated feelings. What was it like being there 537 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: for that conversation? What was it like, you know, watching 538 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: the film back. 539 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: I'll be honest, I was very emotional throughout this entire process. 540 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: I think I cried more doing this project and in 541 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 2: the last two years than I have. It's so real 542 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 2: and it's honest, and there's growth that's happening. There's a 543 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: lot of hurt that people are expressing, and when we 544 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: as content creators are there for this. I feel for 545 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: them on a different level, just because that vulnerability is 546 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 2: very hard to ask if people, let alone ask if 547 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 2: those people while a camera is in a room, Like 548 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 2: Derek said, we were pretty lean and mean. So Derek 549 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 2: was really great at letting people have that space. So 550 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: you can feel that we were in the room. But 551 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: it's family. It's two sisters that love each other so 552 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 2: much that it's hard to kind of navigate those feelings 553 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: at times, and those emotions go from anger to hurt 554 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: to happiness in a second. 555 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what it means to care about a child. 556 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 3: How can you get mad me? 557 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 2: Look at me? 558 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 4: Money? 559 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 3: How can you put the border on me? 560 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 5: I told you everything. I want to die, and you 561 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 5: want me to fucking be on time when you sit 562 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 5: on his birthday? 563 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 3: Boys, I'm sorry because I'm late. That is show up boy, Kilo, 564 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 3: I said, which one do you want. 565 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: Me to do? 566 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 4: It was really important for us to show the audience 567 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 4: the experience of reconciliation, family reconciliation. How I think my 568 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 4: perception at least coming into this was, you know, you 569 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 4: get out of a situation like that and you're just 570 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 4: running back into the open arms of your parents and siblings, 571 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 4: so grateful and happy to be out and sort of 572 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 4: find your freedom again. And it's obviously now obvious to me, 573 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 4: but not at the time, and I think won't be 574 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 4: obvious to our audience that it's much more complicated than that. 575 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 4: You know, you're coming out a shell of yourself, trying 576 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 4: to pick up the pieces, trying to rediscover who you are, 577 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 4: what you believe, your place in the world, your place 578 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 4: within your own family. And so we had observed as 579 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 4: Priscilla and Melanie were trying to rebuild their relationship, they 580 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 4: were making a lot of strides, but it never really 581 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 4: had that serious sort of heart to heart conversation. The 582 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 4: sort of bravery it took to ultimately have that conversation 583 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 4: while we were there in the room with the cameras 584 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 4: rolling was painful but beautiful. You know, it's something I 585 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 4: think we can all relate to, you know, with our 586 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 4: own families, we go through those experiences and if you 587 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 4: have that sort of enduring love, you come out the 588 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 4: other side stronger. And in that moment, while there was 589 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 4: a lot of vulnerability and pain on display, to see 590 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 4: them work through that in real time and come out 591 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 4: the other side more connected, and a deepening of their 592 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 4: relationship was profound. 593 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: Shin seems to have a strategy to keep members of 594 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: his cult from reconciling with their families and to keep 595 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: the cult intact, which is to say to the members 596 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: of his church, visit your families, talk to them, but 597 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: limit conversation about us. Just give them a little bit 598 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: and keep them at an arm's length. And we see 599 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: this really complicated scene again where Miranda re engages with 600 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: her family at Christmas, and at other times we see 601 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: this Christmas scene and then we hear her mom say, 602 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: you know, she wants the visits to go, well, she 603 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: just wants to see her daughter, so she will continue 604 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: to pretend I really just wanted to be like come 605 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: in and just like forget everything, and let's just almost 606 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: pretend like nothing happened, you know, like just. 607 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 4: To that's all. 608 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 3: That's all we've ever done. 609 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 4: What's that That's how we've averatize. 610 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 3: It's just person like nothing happened. 611 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because the only times you've ever said anything, 612 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: she said, I'm not going to see you again if 613 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 2: you keep talking about it. 614 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: Right, And Melanie and her dad seem really frustrated by this. 615 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: So to some extent it shows me that Shin's technique 616 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: is working, but it also shows that this family is 617 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: stuck in this phase of non reconciliation. Yet they're also 618 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: making this film with you, which I know is going 619 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: to shift things. So how did that feel for you 620 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: to be in that moment because it is so layered, 621 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: and as a viewer, you're experiencing it with them, you know, 622 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: watching them play this play and also knowing that they're 623 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: making this film at the same time. 624 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 4: Gosh, yeah, yes, I mean, you know, it's a it's 625 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 4: a hard question to answer. You know, again, I sort 626 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 4: of go back to asking the audience to put themselves 627 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 4: in their shoes. You know, what would you do in 628 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 4: that situation where you're so desperate to resume your relationship, 629 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 4: to have contact with your daughter or your sister or 630 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 4: your son, and to then be sort of granted that access. 631 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 4: So you're grateful to now, you know, have the thing 632 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 4: that you've been fighting for for over a year, but 633 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,959 Speaker 4: to know that it is under the control and ultimately 634 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 4: manipulation of this other person, that he's the one behind 635 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 4: the scenes pulling the strings, and that he's using that 636 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 4: as a way to sort of deepen his control over 637 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 4: his members by telling them that, you know, you're cutting 638 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 4: them off to save them right, to allow them to 639 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 4: get to heaven, and then only sort of allowing them 640 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 4: access and sort of back into their lives, to sort 641 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 4: of keep the family satiated, to keep them at bay. 642 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 4: And the families know that, yet it's still incredibly complicated 643 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 4: and painful again because they crave that connection more than anything, 644 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 4: and so they'll take it even though they know that 645 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 4: while the interaction might be genuine, it is still part 646 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 4: of a larger manipulation by Robert and part of his 647 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 4: larger control. I'm at a loss trying to verbalize how 648 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 4: that must feel for these parents. 649 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: But Jessica, you know that this series is also like 650 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: a bigger version of that Instagram Live in many ways 651 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: for this family, right. 652 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, like the Instagram Live. 653 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 2: It wasn't easy, like you were saying with Christmas, that 654 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 2: was hard for us to be there in that moment. 655 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 3: They didn't know whether or not Miranda. 656 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,959 Speaker 2: I mean, they had seen this before where she says 657 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 2: one thing and then maybe she has to cancel, and 658 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: you know, again you have this puppeteer if you will 659 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 2: and Robert's really controlling that they were on edge. 660 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 3: They had this whole conversation of like, do you think 661 00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 3: she's going to come? 662 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 2: Are they going to make an excuse because the snowstorm's 663 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: coming in, and like, I can't even imagine what that's like. 664 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: That everything that you do you have to think about 665 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 2: what that other person might be saying on the other end. 666 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 2: So having us in the room, having us be there 667 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 2: was really difficult for them too, because they felt that 668 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 2: it was maybe not being fully transparent, and as a 669 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 2: family that had always been so close knit, that wasn't 670 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 2: easy for them. Ultimately, they did tell Miranda they were 671 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 2: a part of this project because they didn't want to 672 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 2: feel that anymore. They didn't want to feel that they 673 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: were playing two sides in any sort of way. But 674 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 2: they also wanted her to know that they were doing 675 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 2: this in hopes that she would see it, in hopes 676 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 2: that she would maybe see Robert for who we've learned 677 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 2: he is and ultimately maybe get out of that controlled environment. 678 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 4: And also to see I would just add, to see 679 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 4: the love that they have and to really sort of 680 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 4: hopefully see their perspective and POV and all of this, 681 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 4: because the way that they have interpreted the actions of 682 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 4: their parents has been filtered through what Robert tells them, 683 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 4: you know, and so this again is sort of that 684 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 4: opportunity to show their kids that and their family like, 685 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 4: this is really who we are and what you know. Again, 686 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 4: like sort of to have the opportunity to speak directly 687 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 4: to them, this is what we want you to hear, 688 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 4: and this is why we're doing this. 689 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 1: I thought one of the most moving moments was seeing 690 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: Melanie talk about how she's kind of a prisoner of 691 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: this cult too, and she feels a little bit controlled 692 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: by the situation, and that was really astounding moment. And 693 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, I found myself wondering what Miranda is going 694 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: to think and feel when she sees that as well. 695 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: Derek Donin and Jessica Ascevedo. The series is Dancing for 696 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: the Devil, the Seven m TikTok Cult. Thank you so 697 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 1: much for joining me on the podcast to talk about it. 698 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: It's a fascinating conversation and a fascinating series. I really 699 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: really enjoyed watching it and speaking with you about it. 700 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:52,720 Speaker 4: It's been a pleasure. 701 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. 702 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having us. 703 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: That's it for this week's episode. Thanks again to Derek 704 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: Doning and Jessica Assevedo. More of my takes, check out 705 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: my other podcast, Crime Writers. On Each week, on that show, 706 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: we break down the latest and true crime documentaries, TV shows, podcasts, 707 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: and pop culture. If you like you Can't make this up, 708 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: please rate and review this show and share it with 709 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: your friends. Find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever 710 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: you're listening right now, and make sure to follow the 711 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: show to stay tuned for all new episodes. You can't 712 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: make this up. As a production of Netflix, I'm Rebecca Lavoy. 713 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening.