WEBVTT - Episode 10- Wild Country 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.280 Welcome to the piked In Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:07.760 and Katie's Studios. This is episode ten Wild Country. In 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:09.639 this episode, we're going to be answering a bunch of 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.080 questions we've received over social media. We are also going 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.960 to be going deeper into some subjects we've only touched 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.599 on and talking about some stories we haven't been able 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.960 to tell. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I work at Katie's Studios 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:26.280 with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Sheen. Just as a legal reminder, Angela, 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:29.560 Billy Jake, and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.240 Angela Wagner's mother Rita Joe Neucomb and Billy Wagner's mother, 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.800 Frederica were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.600 Nucom was also charged with forgery. All six of them 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.160 pled not guilty, and our justice system presumes innocence until 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:44.960 guilt is proven. 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:54.320 Ali from Ormond Beach, Florida asked us about the drugs 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.280 and how they relate to the case and if there's 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.840 anything else in the piked In area that pertains to 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:01.480 drugs that we should know. 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.280 So. One of the big theories behind the murders. We 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.920 explored was drugs and the fact that the Rodents did 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.000 have a pretty large marijuana grow operation on their property. 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:13.880 But it's not just specific to the Rodent or even 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.480 specific to Piked. In the immediate area is kind of 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.240 a hotbed that's been affected by drugs in myriad ways. 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.640 For starters, there's not a ton of jobs, and that 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:27.760 has really taken a toll on the town. And just 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:29.640 generally speaking, Ohio. 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:31.640 And the southern part of the state has been devastated 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:36.600 by drug abuse, mostly prescription painkillers and heroin. In Pike County, 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.679 the drug overdose mortality rate from twenty fourteen to twenty 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.679 eighteen was more than seventy one deaths per one hundred 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.600 thousand population. The rate for the rest of the country 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.080 was twenty seven deaths per one hundred thousand. That's nearly 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.280 three times the mortality rate of the rest of the country. 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.560 A lot of these drugs come in from Portsmouth. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.200 Portsmouth, Ohio, is the neighboring town to Pike and so 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.880 about a fifteen minute drive I spoke to investigative reporter 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:06.440 James Pilcher, who did an incredibly deep dive into Portsmouth 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.280 into the larger picture of what's happening in southeastern Ohio. 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:13.040 Sportsmith, which is in the next county over on the 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:17.440 river south of Pike County in Piketon, is known as 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.360 ground zero for the pill mill epidemic. That's where pill 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:24.680 mills and the opioid epidemic is known to have had 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.760 a major hotspot way early on in the late nineteen 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:31.799 nineties early two thousands, when the oxycon first hit the market. 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:33.560 And tell me what a pill mill is. 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:39.800 A pill mill is where a doctor who for whatever 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.920 reason isn't there to see clients, somebody just shows up 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.400 and you just hands some prescription for money, and then 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.079 they get the prescription there and then right next door 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.720 is a pharmacy and then they just put it in 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:55.880 and then those people get the pills because it's legal 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.000 in that state. They might drive them home to Florida 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.680 and then sell them for ten times the price or 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.720 trade them or whatever. But it was unregulated in Ohio 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:09.560 at the time, and Kentucky was bad too. Kentucky had 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.280 the same issues. So right there enforcements right there on 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.480 the Ohio River bordering Kentucky, so you had both sides 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.720 of the river. So there were cars lined up from 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:24.200 Florida and West Virginia and Georgia up and down all 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:28.200 over town for a decade, and it just ravaged the city, 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:33.280 which had already been decimated by you know, the pullout 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:37.120 of industrialization, and so all of that kind of flooded in. 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:41.680 You have all of these, you know, an economically depressed area, 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.080 all of a sudden, addiction becomes a major major issue. 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.240 People are driving from all over the country because it's 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:48.400 easy to get the pills there. 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:50.280 And then of course there's also the people who get 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.320 into kind of the illicit activities to make money, right. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:59.840 Absolutely, absolutely, a cottage industry of crime and drug associated 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:04.880 kind of sprung up, and you know, started to do 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.640 my own reporting on it. So one of our editors 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.760 worked as the managing editor of the Portsmouth Daily Times, 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.400 which is the daily newspaper there in the early twenty ten, 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.720 and so he was very familiar with the rumors that 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:24.000 had been circulating around about Michael Moran. Moran had already 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.080 been a city council but he wasn't on city council anymore, 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.840 but he was still well known within the legal circles 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.240 and chamber of commerce, and he did some work pro 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:38.720 bono work about legal defense, but he always seemed to 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:43.040 have a pretty girl in his army. In December of 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:47.880 twenty eighteen, a now former reporter with that newspaper put 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:52.640 out on Facebook segments of a federal affidavits from the 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:57.159 Drug Enforcement Administration, which basically laid there and put out 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:02.440 for public viewing. That's the federal law enforcement was investigating 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.359 the very same rumors that have been following Moran around 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.760 for years, that he was running girls and running drugs, 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:10.360 and that this was who he was. 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.280 It's important to note that Michael Moran has not been 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.800 arrested or charged with any crimes. Also that Moran has 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:22.600 categorically denied all of this. 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:24.680 My editor at the time, and I was working as 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.440 an investigative reporter at the Cincinnati Enquirer, said would James 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.960 be interested in taking a look at this? And I'll 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.159 be honest, I thought, I didn't think it was real 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.120 at first. I thought there was no way that this 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.920 is as bad as they say it is and whatever. 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.560 So I took a drive out there. The partnered me 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.960 with a woman photographer whom we went out there a 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.279 couple of times, and I'll never forget it. We were 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.200 doing some b roll shoot shots in front of a 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.680 pseudo abandoned shoe factory with graffiti about hookers and things 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:55.440 like that, and a guy comes running up and says, 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:59.480 what are you doing? And I told him and I said, 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:01.440 by the way, ever heard of Michael Moran. He says, oh, yeah, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:06.000 that guy runs women. So this was not a secret 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:11.680 in Portsmouth. Everybody knew the rumors and had known somebody 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.359 that knew somebody that had worked for him. It was 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.440 going on that he was running women all over the country. 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:22.040 He was promising women drugs for sex. He had relationships 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:26.400 with judges and with members of law enforcement, all of it. 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:30.400 So you know, all of this is in a federal 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:31.600 document we're talking about. 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.280 It's like human trafficking, right, yes. 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.799 So so you know, some people this is an interesting distinction. 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.280 Some people will say, oh, well, these women knew what 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:42.960 they were doing, they were just trying to make money. Well, 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.920 if you talk to the experts, it went one step 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.640 beyond that. It went into trafficking because Moran was holding 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.800 over them a the fact that they were drug addicts, 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.279 and he would withhold their money or withhold their wherewithal 0:06:56.360 --> 0:07:00.920 to get drugs, which under federal statute and Ohio statute 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:07.240 is a form of trafficking B. He was intensively promising 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.800 more lenient sentences because he had friends in the legal system. 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:13.880 I'd like to point out here that we reached out 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:17.400 to Michael Moran as well as the prosecutors involved. Neither 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:19.080 side got back to us with comment. 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.560 So I talked to some folks, but getting those first 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.720 initial people to talk, that was their big fear, is 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.200 they these women just weren't afraid to go to jail. 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.560 They were afraid for their lives. And the reason they 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.040 were afraid for their lives is the name of one woman, 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.920 and that's Megan Lancaster. Meghan was a known prostitute in 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:40.840 the late two thousands in Sciotra County. If you talk 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.000 to her sister in law and you talk to other 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:47.000 people who knew her, she worked for Mike Moran. Meghan 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:51.280 got hooked on drugs early on in high school. Shortly 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.320 out after high school. If you talk to her sister 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:58.560 in law, who has led the charge, he started partying 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.880 later in high school and out of high school, and 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:07.960 that led her, according to our sources, into the circle 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:12.760 of Morane. So Moran would hire her out for bachelor parties, 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:17.680 and you know Katie Lancaster, her sister in law, even 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:21.200 tells the story about her running into Megan wearing Christmas 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:25.240 lingerie in a Walmart picking something up on her way 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.840 to a Christmas party where she was the entertainment for 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.600 a bunch of Moran's friends. And she mysteriously disappeared, so 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:38.000 we can't even say she was murdered. Her car was 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.320 found of blood on it, the door was left wide open, 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:44.360 half parked in a local fast food joint there in 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:49.040 downtown Portsmouth, and they have not found hide nor hair 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.200 of her. And I can tell you there are a 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.640 lot of places in Sciota County where you can hide 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:59.680 a body. It's full of hollers and dips and forests, 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:04.320 and it's wild country. It really is wild country. The 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.360 glaciers came through and cut a bunch of stuff, and 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:13.960 it's it's beautiful, but it's also wild country. And a 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:18.160 flew of women went missing or got killed that were 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:25.000 addicted prostitutes, sex workers up in Ross County, in Chilcoffee, 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.240 which is two counties to the north. Since twenty ten, 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.600 more than a dozen women have either been killed or 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.439 gone missing in Ross County which is the county north 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.480 of Pike County, which is probably an hour forty five 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:43.240 minutes north of pikedn in Chilicothee. So Megan, A lot 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.760 of people theorized that Meghan might have been wrapped up 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.480 in something that got those women killed. But there's a 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.680 lot of thought and there's a lot of theory or 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.920 rumor that now that that was separate from what happened 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.480 to her, and what happened to her points back to 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.760 possibly Michael Marine that he. 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:02.600 Would want to silence her for some reason. 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:09.679 Yeah, these are powerful men taking advantage of addicted, unempowered women. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.520 And so how would you say, like Michael Moran in 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.280 tying this back to the road in case Michael Moran 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.520 and the situation in Portsmouth, I think just speaks to 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:24.360 this community, which I think includes Piked In as people. 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.320 You know, these men in power are kind of doing 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.000 what they want. And you know, when you look at 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.480 Sheriff Rider, who handled the investigation for the road and murder, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:33.400 he was also doing what he wanted. You know, now 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.559 he's indicted on all these charges of you know, theft 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:37.200 from the county. 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:42.160 Yeah, and so you know, you can the parallel if 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:43.640 you're wanting to make a parallel to the road in 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:49.040 cases absolutely either a you had ineffectual or corrupt or 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:55.439 both law enforcements, right you had a community or a 0:10:55.600 --> 0:11:00.000 culture of lawlessness that has descended on upon many play 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.760 in rural America. I will also say there's a major 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:08.079 issue in small town America with the quality and quantity 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.840 of law enforcement that happens there and the lack of accountability. 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:21.040 Because nobody's watching, you might. 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.480 Be wondering how the crimes in Portsmith fit into the 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.800 Road and Family case. While we probably know that Michael 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.640 Moran and what's happening in Portsmouth is not directly related 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.080 to the Road and murders, it does speak to the 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.320 distrust and lack of accountability in law enforcement. It's this 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:37.920 idea that all these men in power, from judges to 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:40.679 attorneys are involved in these crimes and their cover ups. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:44.080 It raises a pretty unnerving question who do you trust 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.400 if you can't trust elected officials and law enforcement. Furthermore, 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.120 this influx of drugs and lack of accountability from law 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.320 enforcement and the haphazard way piked and authorities tried to 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.000 recover some seemingly very important evidence is basically exactly what 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.840 reporter James Pilcher outlined so well in his work. 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.160 Yeah, it seems really systemic in the area and specifically 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:07.760 too piked in and that impacts everything from the top down. 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:14.920 Let's stop here for a quick commercial break. We'll be 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:28.400 back in a moment. Mike Land from Hoboken, New Jersey, 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.000 asked if there were any other personal stories we'd heard 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.280 from people along the way that hadn't made it into 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.120 the podcast, and here are a few that stand out 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:36.520 to us. 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.680 The relationship between Frederica Wagner and Angela Wagner, her daughter 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:42.720 in law, has been the basis of a lot of 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.719 conversation that it was a troubled relationship and that Angela 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.520 and her husband were vicious fighters. And we even have 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.720 heard from a very close source that Angela would actually 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.000 have to put a little sedative in Billy Wagner's shakes 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.600 every day because that would lower his temper and that's 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.200 how she would survive the day. It just paints a picture, 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.280 whether this is true or not. Here Angela enters the 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.840 Wagner family. She's feuding with her now mother in law, 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:13.600 the matriarch of the family, Frederica, her husband I don't 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:15.880 know how tall he actually is, but he's a tall 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:21.040 presence of a man, and you know, allegedly hot tempered. 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:25.920 So Angela is trying to survive this new dynamic homeschooling 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:31.040 her boys and sedating her husband and feuding with her 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.560 mother in law. It just paints a very complicated picture. 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.760 It does. And because I can be pedantic of allegedly 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:43.360 drugging her, but other stuff we did here because I 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.199 spoke to the same person who was a family member, 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.679 it was someone who was a family. 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:49.880 They were there. 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.040 This is apparently first hand account correct. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.160 And part of that which I thought also painted such 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.160 an interesting picture was, like you said, the Wagners were 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:03.280 known really widely to have get into it with the fights. 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.800 And what this source said to us was that she 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.040 was at the family home, at the Wagner family home, 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:14.360 and she commented that Angela had very many decorative baskets 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.400 all over and she said those are very beautiful. And 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.960 Angela allegedly said, well, every time we get into a 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.280 fight and Billy needs to apologize, he buys me another 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.280 basket because I like him. And so just picturing this 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:33.320 house filled with decorative baskets, each one emblematic of an argument, 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:41.880 just an interesting picture. Here's a rich question and it 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:46.720 comes from Aaron from Malvern, New York, and she asks 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:51.560 how to Sheriff Reader play into the investigations and how 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:56.400 mighty play into the upcoming court trials. He complicates this, 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.600 I mean, he's been accused of many things. In court 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.760 documents filed just last month, they alleged Reader of misappropriating 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.960 about fifteen thousand dollars and SEES funds and borrowing six 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.480 thousand dollars from employees, which can be seen as coercion. 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.920 The records also accuse him of circumventing rules at auctions 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.640 to improperly get impounded vehicles for his family, so to 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:25.960 his benefit. Additionally, the court alleges that Reader on June 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:31.280 twenty seventeen, seized seven thousand dollars that prosecutors call quote 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.200 possible proceeds of drug trafficking. So these are charges that 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.760 have gone for several years, and there's even new allegations 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.160 that charge him and engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:47.000 which is a first degree felony, and prosecutors have long 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.360 used the charge as a way to attack organized crime 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.520 figures and major drug dealers by seeking long prison sentences. 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.600 So the fact that they're using this against a sheriff 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:57.400 is interesting strategy. 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.600 You know. The issue is now that his character is 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.400 being called into question, and according to sources we've talked to, 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.800 the criminal justice experts agree that if Reader is found 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.080 of any wrongdoing, it could pose obstacles for the prosecution 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:14.640 in the trials against the Wagners. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:19.080 You know, Reader was the frontman of making everybody feel 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.880 at ease that the investigation was being handled, but frankly 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.440 was kind of doing a messy job from the jump. 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:25.800 Yeah. 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.240 I mean, in theory, you could look at every single 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.640 case Sheriff Reader took the lead on and wonder what 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.400 he was doing behind the scenes in order to make 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.760 an arrest, which would include the rodent investigation. On the 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.960 other side of that, though, you know, what experts are 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.440 saying is that the prosecution might argue to the judge 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.080 on the case that Reader's criminal history isn't relevant to 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.120 the Wagner trials and thus shouldn't be heard by a jury, 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.200 and they'll do that by downplaying his role in the investigation. 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.040 And if that becomes the case, then it won't necessarily 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:02.000 be a death blow to the state case. Another expert 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.960 was quoted as saying in the press, officers are human 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.680 beings like everybody else, and so sometimes juries can weigh 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.040 in on that and decide what kind of credence they 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:11.520 want to give to his behavior. 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.159 Shriff Frieder also potentially jeopardized the investigation by having the 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.520 Rodents cars and mobile homes moved off site, which Attorney 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.840 Mike Allen an investigative reporter Jodi Barr talked about in 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:28.479 episode five. So Shriffrieder's involvement is far reaching and it 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.120 has the potential to effect in multiple ways, not only 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.240 during the investigation but moving forward with the trials. 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.400 Yeah, there was something else early on in the investigation 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.040 that happened that really did cause a stir and that's 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.960 the road in autopsy reports, And for some reason these 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.040 were held up in being released to the media outlets, 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.399 which is something that happens occasionally in criminal cases, but 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.720 it garnered a lot of attention specifically with the road 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:53.320 in case. 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:58.359 Probably the reason why is oftentimes autopsies are not released 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:00.800 to the public because there might be a hell or 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:05.359 something very significant in those autopsy reports. For example, this 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.480 is just top of head not related to the Wagner 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.320 or Roding case at all. If somebody had a certain 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.520 tattoo marking or had been cut in a certain way 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:19.760 that only the perpetrator slash killer would know, then authorities 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.040 don't want that information to be wildly known because it's 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.960 something that would be helpful to know if there was 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.560 a confession, for example, So if somebody confessed, they would 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:33.679 know that information. So that is not entirely uncommon, although 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:36.520 in this case it seems that was not the reason why. 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.479 Yeah, it's speculated that it's not the reason why. And 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:41.879 this is this one actually all the way up to 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:46.359 the Ohio Supreme Court. Two outlets, the Columbus Dispatch and 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.320 the Cincinnati Inquirer, sued the state for the right to 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.959 the autopsies. The suit was filed against the Pike County Coroner, 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.040 David Kessler, and that came after the Dispatch was denied 0:18:56.200 --> 0:19:00.880 three separate times officially asking for the final autops reports. 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.560 And what the Dispatch's claim was was that the final 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.679 autopsy reports are of great public interest and quote significant 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.400 value to the Dispatch and our news gathering activities. 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.280 The authorities really were apprehensive to release the autopsy information, 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.680 arguing that the release could hinder the investigation. I wonder, 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.560 just to harp on this a little longer, like what 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:24.200 was the city, like what was Pike County really trying 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:24.840 to protect? 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:25.320 You know? 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.000 Four times, three times seems like a lot of times 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.240 to continue to fight the release of this, and now 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.720 that we know what they say, like what in there 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:38.280 was so damning to the investigation? You know, it's just 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:39.119 like seems like a lot. 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.320 Well. I actually spoke with attorney Jack Grenier, and he 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:45.639 was one of the lawyers who filed the suit on 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.000 behalf of the dispatch, and he had some really compelling thoughts. 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.920 You have to kind of wonder, in light of the 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.879 trouble that the sheriff ultimately got into, what was motivating 0:19:55.880 --> 0:20:00.479 the desire to keep things kind of quiet, Because is 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:08.200 a pretty good example of, in my view, law enforcement overreacting. 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:12.720 And I say that kind of cautiously because you know, 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.760 it's say it was multiple murders in a gruesome situation. 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:18.680 But I think the. 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:23.520 Idea of you know, you just have to withhold as 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:25.880 much information as you possibly can. 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.400 From the public, and even maybe more information than you're 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:34.719 allowed to withhold, is to me an overreaction and I 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:39.040 think we saw that in this case. You know that somehow, you. 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:40.919 Know, if any piece of information got out. 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:44.160 There would somehow derail the whole investigation. 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:46.040 I just I just don't buy into that. 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.920 The Inquirer really argued that it was in the public's 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.320 best interest to know what the autopsy said and to review. 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:58.560 I meant, what we learned from the autopsies is pretty 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.439 important in terms of what happened to the rod Ends. 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:03.520 We learned how many times they were shot, where they 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.159 were shot, which really did speak to how personal the 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:08.800 crimes were. Some of these family members were shot multiple 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:10.960 times in the face with a shotgun, and so if 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:14.000 this was a drug cartel hit, you know, it wasn't 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.480 once and quick. It was personal and it was an overkill, 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:19.040 which is what we learned from the autopsies. 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.520 Once these autopsies would be released, here we go again, 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.359 more questions with few answers, and sure enough, that's exactly 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.400 what happened. Thankfully we have this information and we could 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.280 actually really look at these autopsy reports in great detail, 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:35.359 and I can speak for myself saying it was really 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.359 dark and twisted when you really do see just how 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:42.760 much to your point, Chef of an overkill. 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:43.439 This really was. 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:46.120 Yeah, it made me think like what releasing this autopsy 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.080 would do to the town of piked In and speaking 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:49.840 to a fair amount of the residents and just the 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.720 feeling of uncertainty. I don't know how it would if 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:55.400 it was a good thing or a bad thing, because 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:56.840 the people in piked In were thinking it was a 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:00.560 drug cartel who did this prior to the autopsy release, 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:03.359 and that created a sense of fear. But then I 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.479 think after the autopsies were released, people started circling in 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.000 on the Wagners and really thinking they did it, which 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:11.760 created a whole other set of problems in terms of 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.400 this kind of small town justice that the Wagner's faced, 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.000 whether they deserve it or not, creates a whole new 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:23.080 problem for the sheriff's office. 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.880 Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:41.240 in a moment. So we were talking about the informant, 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:43.560 which we've covered in the past, but I know there's 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:45.000 been some other questions out there. 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:48.879 Yeah, so Woody from Comack, New York asked us on 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.320 social media about the likelihood that the informant is in 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:53.720 fact one of the Wagner four. 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:57.480 I'm obsessed with understanding more about the informant personally, So 0:22:57.560 --> 0:22:59.680 you definitely think it must be a family member. 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:04.600 Who must is a strong statement. I think the likelihood, 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:08.240 I think it seems likely only because if this family 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:12.119 allegedly did commit this careful, careful, planned out murders that 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.119 they spent months planning, why would they then be so 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:21.119 careless and have someone else involved enough with the information 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:25.240