1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to the piked In Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio

2
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 1: and Katie's Studios. This is episode ten Wild Country. In

3
00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:09,639
Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to be answering a bunch of

4
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,080
Speaker 1: questions we've received over social media. We are also going

5
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,960
Speaker 1: to be going deeper into some subjects we've only touched

6
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,599
Speaker 1: on and talking about some stories we haven't been able

7
00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,960
Speaker 1: to tell. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I work at Katie's Studios

8
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,280
Speaker 1: with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Sheen. Just as a legal reminder, Angela,

9
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,560
Speaker 1: Billy Jake, and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder.

10
00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,240
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner's mother Rita Joe Neucomb and Billy Wagner's mother,

11
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 1: Frederica were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury.

12
00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 1: Nucom was also charged with forgery. All six of them

13
00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,160
Speaker 1: pled not guilty, and our justice system presumes innocence until

14
00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:44,960
Speaker 1: guilt is proven.

15
00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 2: Ali from Ormond Beach, Florida asked us about the drugs

16
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 2: and how they relate to the case and if there's

17
00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 2: anything else in the piked In area that pertains to

18
00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,480
Speaker 2: drugs that we should know.

19
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,280
Speaker 1: So. One of the big theories behind the murders. We

20
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,920
Speaker 1: explored was drugs and the fact that the Rodents did

21
00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 1: have a pretty large marijuana grow operation on their property.

22
00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,880
Speaker 1: But it's not just specific to the Rodent or even

23
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,480
Speaker 1: specific to Piked. In the immediate area is kind of

24
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,240
Speaker 1: a hotbed that's been affected by drugs in myriad ways.

25
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 3: For starters, there's not a ton of jobs, and that

26
00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,760
Speaker 3: has really taken a toll on the town. And just

27
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 3: generally speaking, Ohio.

28
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,640
Speaker 1: And the southern part of the state has been devastated

29
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 1: by drug abuse, mostly prescription painkillers and heroin. In Pike County,

30
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,679
Speaker 1: the drug overdose mortality rate from twenty fourteen to twenty

31
00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,679
Speaker 1: eighteen was more than seventy one deaths per one hundred

32
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,600
Speaker 1: thousand population. The rate for the rest of the country

33
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,080
Speaker 1: was twenty seven deaths per one hundred thousand. That's nearly

34
00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,280
Speaker 1: three times the mortality rate of the rest of the country.

35
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,560
Speaker 1: A lot of these drugs come in from Portsmouth.

36
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,200
Speaker 2: Portsmouth, Ohio, is the neighboring town to Pike and so

37
00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,880
Speaker 2: about a fifteen minute drive I spoke to investigative reporter

38
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,440
Speaker 2: James Pilcher, who did an incredibly deep dive into Portsmouth

39
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,280
Speaker 2: into the larger picture of what's happening in southeastern Ohio.

40
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 4: Sportsmith, which is in the next county over on the

41
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,440
Speaker 4: river south of Pike County in Piketon, is known as

42
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,360
Speaker 4: ground zero for the pill mill epidemic. That's where pill

43
00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,680
Speaker 4: mills and the opioid epidemic is known to have had

44
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,760
Speaker 4: a major hotspot way early on in the late nineteen

45
00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,799
Speaker 4: nineties early two thousands, when the oxycon first hit the market.

46
00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:33,560
Speaker 2: And tell me what a pill mill is.

47
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:39,800
Speaker 4: A pill mill is where a doctor who for whatever

48
00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,920
Speaker 4: reason isn't there to see clients, somebody just shows up

49
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,400
Speaker 4: and you just hands some prescription for money, and then

50
00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,079
Speaker 4: they get the prescription there and then right next door

51
00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,720
Speaker 4: is a pharmacy and then they just put it in

52
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,880
Speaker 4: and then those people get the pills because it's legal

53
00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,000
Speaker 4: in that state. They might drive them home to Florida

54
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,680
Speaker 4: and then sell them for ten times the price or

55
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,720
Speaker 4: trade them or whatever. But it was unregulated in Ohio

56
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 4: at the time, and Kentucky was bad too. Kentucky had

57
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 4: the same issues. So right there enforcements right there on

58
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 4: the Ohio River bordering Kentucky, so you had both sides

59
00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,720
Speaker 4: of the river. So there were cars lined up from

60
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:24,200
Speaker 4: Florida and West Virginia and Georgia up and down all

61
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,200
Speaker 4: over town for a decade, and it just ravaged the city,

62
00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:33,280
Speaker 4: which had already been decimated by you know, the pullout

63
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,120
Speaker 4: of industrialization, and so all of that kind of flooded in.

64
00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,680
Speaker 4: You have all of these, you know, an economically depressed area,

65
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, addiction becomes a major major issue.

66
00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,240
Speaker 4: People are driving from all over the country because it's

67
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 4: easy to get the pills there.

68
00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,280
Speaker 2: And then of course there's also the people who get

69
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 2: into kind of the illicit activities to make money, right.

70
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 4: Absolutely, absolutely, a cottage industry of crime and drug associated

71
00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,880
Speaker 4: kind of sprung up, and you know, started to do

72
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,640
Speaker 4: my own reporting on it. So one of our editors

73
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,760
Speaker 4: worked as the managing editor of the Portsmouth Daily Times,

74
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,400
Speaker 4: which is the daily newspaper there in the early twenty ten,

75
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,720
Speaker 4: and so he was very familiar with the rumors that

76
00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,000
Speaker 4: had been circulating around about Michael Moran. Moran had already

77
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,080
Speaker 4: been a city council but he wasn't on city council anymore,

78
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,840
Speaker 4: but he was still well known within the legal circles

79
00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,240
Speaker 4: and chamber of commerce, and he did some work pro

80
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,720
Speaker 4: bono work about legal defense, but he always seemed to

81
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 4: have a pretty girl in his army. In December of

82
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,880
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, a now former reporter with that newspaper put

83
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,640
Speaker 4: out on Facebook segments of a federal affidavits from the

84
00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:57,159
Speaker 4: Drug Enforcement Administration, which basically laid there and put out

85
00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:02,440
Speaker 4: for public viewing. That's the federal law enforcement was investigating

86
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,359
Speaker 4: the very same rumors that have been following Moran around

87
00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,760
Speaker 4: for years, that he was running girls and running drugs,

88
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,360
Speaker 4: and that this was who he was.

89
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,280
Speaker 1: It's important to note that Michael Moran has not been

90
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,800
Speaker 1: arrested or charged with any crimes. Also that Moran has

91
00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:22,600
Speaker 1: categorically denied all of this.

92
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:24,680
Speaker 4: My editor at the time, and I was working as

93
00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,440
Speaker 4: an investigative reporter at the Cincinnati Enquirer, said would James

94
00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 4: be interested in taking a look at this? And I'll

95
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,159
Speaker 4: be honest, I thought, I didn't think it was real

96
00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,120
Speaker 4: at first. I thought there was no way that this

97
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,920
Speaker 4: is as bad as they say it is and whatever.

98
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,560
Speaker 4: So I took a drive out there. The partnered me

99
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,960
Speaker 4: with a woman photographer whom we went out there a

100
00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,279
Speaker 4: couple of times, and I'll never forget it. We were

101
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,200
Speaker 4: doing some b roll shoot shots in front of a

102
00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,680
Speaker 4: pseudo abandoned shoe factory with graffiti about hookers and things

103
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,440
Speaker 4: like that, and a guy comes running up and says,

104
00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,480
Speaker 4: what are you doing? And I told him and I said,

105
00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 4: by the way, ever heard of Michael Moran. He says, oh, yeah,

106
00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,000
Speaker 4: that guy runs women. So this was not a secret

107
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:11,680
Speaker 4: in Portsmouth. Everybody knew the rumors and had known somebody

108
00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,359
Speaker 4: that knew somebody that had worked for him. It was

109
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,440
Speaker 4: going on that he was running women all over the country.

110
00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,040
Speaker 4: He was promising women drugs for sex. He had relationships

111
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,400
Speaker 4: with judges and with members of law enforcement, all of it.

112
00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 4: So you know, all of this is in a federal

113
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:31,600
Speaker 4: document we're talking about.

114
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,280
Speaker 2: It's like human trafficking, right, yes.

115
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,799
Speaker 4: So so you know, some people this is an interesting distinction.

116
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,280
Speaker 4: Some people will say, oh, well, these women knew what

117
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,960
Speaker 4: they were doing, they were just trying to make money. Well,

118
00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,920
Speaker 4: if you talk to the experts, it went one step

119
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,640
Speaker 4: beyond that. It went into trafficking because Moran was holding

120
00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 4: over them a the fact that they were drug addicts,

121
00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,279
Speaker 4: and he would withhold their money or withhold their wherewithal

122
00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,920
Speaker 4: to get drugs, which under federal statute and Ohio statute

123
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 4: is a form of trafficking B. He was intensively promising

124
00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,800
Speaker 4: more lenient sentences because he had friends in the legal system.

125
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 1: I'd like to point out here that we reached out

126
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 1: to Michael Moran as well as the prosecutors involved. Neither

127
00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,080
Speaker 1: side got back to us with comment.

128
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,560
Speaker 4: So I talked to some folks, but getting those first

129
00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,720
Speaker 4: initial people to talk, that was their big fear, is

130
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 4: they these women just weren't afraid to go to jail.

131
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,560
Speaker 4: They were afraid for their lives. And the reason they

132
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 4: were afraid for their lives is the name of one woman,

133
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,920
Speaker 4: and that's Megan Lancaster. Meghan was a known prostitute in

134
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 4: the late two thousands in Sciotra County. If you talk

135
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 4: to her sister in law and you talk to other

136
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 4: people who knew her, she worked for Mike Moran. Meghan

137
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 4: got hooked on drugs early on in high school. Shortly

138
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,320
Speaker 4: out after high school. If you talk to her sister

139
00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 4: in law, who has led the charge, he started partying

140
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 4: later in high school and out of high school, and

141
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:07,960
Speaker 4: that led her, according to our sources, into the circle

142
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 4: of Morane. So Moran would hire her out for bachelor parties,

143
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,680
Speaker 4: and you know Katie Lancaster, her sister in law, even

144
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,200
Speaker 4: tells the story about her running into Megan wearing Christmas

145
00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,240
Speaker 4: lingerie in a Walmart picking something up on her way

146
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,840
Speaker 4: to a Christmas party where she was the entertainment for

147
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,600
Speaker 4: a bunch of Moran's friends. And she mysteriously disappeared, so

148
00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:38,000
Speaker 4: we can't even say she was murdered. Her car was

149
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,320
Speaker 4: found of blood on it, the door was left wide open,

150
00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 4: half parked in a local fast food joint there in

151
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,040
Speaker 4: downtown Portsmouth, and they have not found hide nor hair

152
00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,200
Speaker 4: of her. And I can tell you there are a

153
00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,640
Speaker 4: lot of places in Sciota County where you can hide

154
00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:59,680
Speaker 4: a body. It's full of hollers and dips and forests,

155
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,320
Speaker 4: and it's wild country. It really is wild country. The

156
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,360
Speaker 4: glaciers came through and cut a bunch of stuff, and

157
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:13,960
Speaker 4: it's it's beautiful, but it's also wild country. And a

158
00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,160
Speaker 4: flew of women went missing or got killed that were

159
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:25,000
Speaker 4: addicted prostitutes, sex workers up in Ross County, in Chilcoffee,

160
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,240
Speaker 4: which is two counties to the north. Since twenty ten,

161
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,600
Speaker 4: more than a dozen women have either been killed or

162
00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,439
Speaker 4: gone missing in Ross County which is the county north

163
00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,480
Speaker 4: of Pike County, which is probably an hour forty five

164
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:43,240
Speaker 4: minutes north of pikedn in Chilicothee. So Megan, A lot

165
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 4: of people theorized that Meghan might have been wrapped up

166
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,480
Speaker 4: in something that got those women killed. But there's a

167
00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,680
Speaker 4: lot of thought and there's a lot of theory or

168
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,920
Speaker 4: rumor that now that that was separate from what happened

169
00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,480
Speaker 4: to her, and what happened to her points back to

170
00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 4: possibly Michael Marine that he.

171
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 2: Would want to silence her for some reason.

172
00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:09,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, these are powerful men taking advantage of addicted, unempowered women.

173
00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,520
Speaker 2: And so how would you say, like Michael Moran in

174
00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,280
Speaker 2: tying this back to the road in case Michael Moran

175
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 2: and the situation in Portsmouth, I think just speaks to

176
00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,360
Speaker 2: this community, which I think includes Piked In as people.

177
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,320
Speaker 2: You know, these men in power are kind of doing

178
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,000
Speaker 2: what they want. And you know, when you look at

179
00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,480
Speaker 2: Sheriff Rider, who handled the investigation for the road and murder,

180
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,400
Speaker 2: he was also doing what he wanted. You know, now

181
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,559
Speaker 2: he's indicted on all these charges of you know, theft

182
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:37,200
Speaker 2: from the county.

183
00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so you know, you can the parallel if

184
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:43,640
Speaker 4: you're wanting to make a parallel to the road in

185
00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:49,040
Speaker 4: cases absolutely either a you had ineffectual or corrupt or

186
00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:55,439
Speaker 4: both law enforcements, right you had a community or a

187
00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 4: culture of lawlessness that has descended on upon many play

188
00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 4: in rural America. I will also say there's a major

189
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,079
Speaker 4: issue in small town America with the quality and quantity

190
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,840
Speaker 4: of law enforcement that happens there and the lack of accountability.

191
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:21,040
Speaker 4: Because nobody's watching, you might.

192
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 2: Be wondering how the crimes in Portsmith fit into the

193
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,800
Speaker 2: Road and Family case. While we probably know that Michael

194
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 2: Moran and what's happening in Portsmouth is not directly related

195
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,080
Speaker 2: to the Road and murders, it does speak to the

196
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,320
Speaker 2: distrust and lack of accountability in law enforcement. It's this

197
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,920
Speaker 2: idea that all these men in power, from judges to

198
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,679
Speaker 2: attorneys are involved in these crimes and their cover ups.

199
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,080
Speaker 2: It raises a pretty unnerving question who do you trust

200
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 2: if you can't trust elected officials and law enforcement. Furthermore,

201
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,120
Speaker 2: this influx of drugs and lack of accountability from law

202
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,320
Speaker 2: enforcement and the haphazard way piked and authorities tried to

203
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,000
Speaker 2: recover some seemingly very important evidence is basically exactly what

204
00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,840
Speaker 2: reporter James Pilcher outlined so well in his work.

205
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems really systemic in the area and specifically

206
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 1: too piked in and that impacts everything from the top down.

207
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,920
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a quick commercial break. We'll be

208
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:28,400
Speaker 1: back in a moment. Mike Land from Hoboken, New Jersey,

209
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,000
Speaker 1: asked if there were any other personal stories we'd heard

210
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,280
Speaker 1: from people along the way that hadn't made it into

211
00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 1: the podcast, and here are a few that stand out

212
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:36,520
Speaker 1: to us.

213
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,680
Speaker 3: The relationship between Frederica Wagner and Angela Wagner, her daughter

214
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,720
Speaker 3: in law, has been the basis of a lot of

215
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,719
Speaker 3: conversation that it was a troubled relationship and that Angela

216
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,520
Speaker 3: and her husband were vicious fighters. And we even have

217
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,720
Speaker 3: heard from a very close source that Angela would actually

218
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,000
Speaker 3: have to put a little sedative in Billy Wagner's shakes

219
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,600
Speaker 3: every day because that would lower his temper and that's

220
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,200
Speaker 3: how she would survive the day. It just paints a picture,

221
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,280
Speaker 3: whether this is true or not. Here Angela enters the

222
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,840
Speaker 3: Wagner family. She's feuding with her now mother in law,

223
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,600
Speaker 3: the matriarch of the family, Frederica, her husband I don't

224
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 3: know how tall he actually is, but he's a tall

225
00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:21,040
Speaker 3: presence of a man, and you know, allegedly hot tempered.

226
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 3: So Angela is trying to survive this new dynamic homeschooling

227
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:31,040
Speaker 3: her boys and sedating her husband and feuding with her

228
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,560
Speaker 3: mother in law. It just paints a very complicated picture.

229
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,760
Speaker 1: It does. And because I can be pedantic of allegedly

230
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 1: drugging her, but other stuff we did here because I

231
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,199
Speaker 1: spoke to the same person who was a family member,

232
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,679
Speaker 1: it was someone who was a family.

233
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:49,880
Speaker 2: They were there.

234
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 3: This is apparently first hand account correct.

235
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,160
Speaker 1: And part of that which I thought also painted such

236
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 1: an interesting picture was, like you said, the Wagners were

237
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,280
Speaker 1: known really widely to have get into it with the fights.

238
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,800
Speaker 1: And what this source said to us was that she

239
00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,040
Speaker 1: was at the family home, at the Wagner family home,

240
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 1: and she commented that Angela had very many decorative baskets

241
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,400
Speaker 1: all over and she said those are very beautiful. And

242
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 1: Angela allegedly said, well, every time we get into a

243
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,280
Speaker 1: fight and Billy needs to apologize, he buys me another

244
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,280
Speaker 1: basket because I like him. And so just picturing this

245
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 1: house filled with decorative baskets, each one emblematic of an argument,

246
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:41,880
Speaker 1: just an interesting picture. Here's a rich question and it

247
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,720
Speaker 1: comes from Aaron from Malvern, New York, and she asks

248
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,560
Speaker 1: how to Sheriff Reader play into the investigations and how

249
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,400
Speaker 1: mighty play into the upcoming court trials. He complicates this,

250
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,600
Speaker 1: I mean, he's been accused of many things. In court

251
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,760
Speaker 1: documents filed just last month, they alleged Reader of misappropriating

252
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,960
Speaker 1: about fifteen thousand dollars and SEES funds and borrowing six

253
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,480
Speaker 1: thousand dollars from employees, which can be seen as coercion.

254
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 1: The records also accuse him of circumventing rules at auctions

255
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,640
Speaker 1: to improperly get impounded vehicles for his family, so to

256
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:25,960
Speaker 1: his benefit. Additionally, the court alleges that Reader on June

257
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:31,280
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, seized seven thousand dollars that prosecutors call quote

258
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,200
Speaker 1: possible proceeds of drug trafficking. So these are charges that

259
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 1: have gone for several years, and there's even new allegations

260
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,160
Speaker 1: that charge him and engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity,

261
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,000
Speaker 1: which is a first degree felony, and prosecutors have long

262
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,360
Speaker 1: used the charge as a way to attack organized crime

263
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,520
Speaker 1: figures and major drug dealers by seeking long prison sentences.

264
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 1: So the fact that they're using this against a sheriff

265
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 1: is interesting strategy.

266
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 2: You know. The issue is now that his character is

267
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,400
Speaker 2: being called into question, and according to sources we've talked to,

268
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 2: the criminal justice experts agree that if Reader is found

269
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 2: of any wrongdoing, it could pose obstacles for the prosecution

270
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 2: in the trials against the Wagners.

271
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:19,080
Speaker 3: You know, Reader was the frontman of making everybody feel

272
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,880
Speaker 3: at ease that the investigation was being handled, but frankly

273
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,440
Speaker 3: was kind of doing a messy job from the jump.

274
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

275
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,240
Speaker 2: I mean, in theory, you could look at every single

276
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,640
Speaker 2: case Sheriff Reader took the lead on and wonder what

277
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,400
Speaker 2: he was doing behind the scenes in order to make

278
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 2: an arrest, which would include the rodent investigation. On the

279
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,960
Speaker 2: other side of that, though, you know, what experts are

280
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,440
Speaker 2: saying is that the prosecution might argue to the judge

281
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 2: on the case that Reader's criminal history isn't relevant to

282
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 2: the Wagner trials and thus shouldn't be heard by a jury,

283
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,200
Speaker 2: and they'll do that by downplaying his role in the investigation.

284
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,040
Speaker 2: And if that becomes the case, then it won't necessarily

285
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 2: be a death blow to the state case. Another expert

286
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,960
Speaker 2: was quoted as saying in the press, officers are human

287
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,680
Speaker 2: beings like everybody else, and so sometimes juries can weigh

288
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 2: in on that and decide what kind of credence they

289
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,520
Speaker 2: want to give to his behavior.

290
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,159
Speaker 1: Shriff Frieder also potentially jeopardized the investigation by having the

291
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 1: Rodents cars and mobile homes moved off site, which Attorney

292
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 1: Mike Allen an investigative reporter Jodi Barr talked about in

293
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:28,479
Speaker 1: episode five. So Shriffrieder's involvement is far reaching and it

294
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,120
Speaker 1: has the potential to effect in multiple ways, not only

295
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,240
Speaker 1: during the investigation but moving forward with the trials.

296
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was something else early on in the investigation

297
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,040
Speaker 2: that happened that really did cause a stir and that's

298
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 2: the road in autopsy reports, And for some reason these

299
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,040
Speaker 2: were held up in being released to the media outlets,

300
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 2: which is something that happens occasionally in criminal cases, but

301
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,720
Speaker 2: it garnered a lot of attention specifically with the road

302
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:53,320
Speaker 2: in case.

303
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,359
Speaker 3: Probably the reason why is oftentimes autopsies are not released

304
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 3: to the public because there might be a hell or

305
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,359
Speaker 3: something very significant in those autopsy reports. For example, this

306
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 3: is just top of head not related to the Wagner

307
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 3: or Roding case at all. If somebody had a certain

308
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,520
Speaker 3: tattoo marking or had been cut in a certain way

309
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,760
Speaker 3: that only the perpetrator slash killer would know, then authorities

310
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 3: don't want that information to be wildly known because it's

311
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 3: something that would be helpful to know if there was

312
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,560
Speaker 3: a confession, for example, So if somebody confessed, they would

313
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,679
Speaker 3: know that information. So that is not entirely uncommon, although

314
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,520
Speaker 3: in this case it seems that was not the reason why.

315
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's speculated that it's not the reason why. And

316
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,879
Speaker 1: this is this one actually all the way up to

317
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 1: the Ohio Supreme Court. Two outlets, the Columbus Dispatch and

318
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 1: the Cincinnati Inquirer, sued the state for the right to

319
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,959
Speaker 1: the autopsies. The suit was filed against the Pike County Coroner,

320
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 1: David Kessler, and that came after the Dispatch was denied

321
00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,880
Speaker 1: three separate times officially asking for the final autops reports.

322
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 1: And what the Dispatch's claim was was that the final

323
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,679
Speaker 1: autopsy reports are of great public interest and quote significant

324
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,400
Speaker 1: value to the Dispatch and our news gathering activities.

325
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,280
Speaker 2: The authorities really were apprehensive to release the autopsy information,

326
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,680
Speaker 2: arguing that the release could hinder the investigation. I wonder,

327
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 2: just to harp on this a little longer, like what

328
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 2: was the city, like what was Pike County really trying

329
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 2: to protect?

330
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 1: You know?

331
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 2: Four times, three times seems like a lot of times

332
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,240
Speaker 2: to continue to fight the release of this, and now

333
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 2: that we know what they say, like what in there

334
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 2: was so damning to the investigation? You know, it's just

335
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 2: like seems like a lot.

336
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 1: Well. I actually spoke with attorney Jack Grenier, and he

337
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 1: was one of the lawyers who filed the suit on

338
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 1: behalf of the dispatch, and he had some really compelling thoughts.

339
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 5: You have to kind of wonder, in light of the

340
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,879
Speaker 5: trouble that the sheriff ultimately got into, what was motivating

341
00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,479
Speaker 5: the desire to keep things kind of quiet, Because is

342
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 5: a pretty good example of, in my view, law enforcement overreacting.

343
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 5: And I say that kind of cautiously because you know,

344
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 5: it's say it was multiple murders in a gruesome situation.

345
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:18,680
Speaker 5: But I think the.

346
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 6: Idea of you know, you just have to withhold as

347
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,880
Speaker 6: much information as you possibly can.

348
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 5: From the public, and even maybe more information than you're

349
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:34,719
Speaker 5: allowed to withhold, is to me an overreaction and I

350
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 5: think we saw that in this case. You know that somehow, you.

351
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,919
Speaker 6: Know, if any piece of information got out.

352
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 5: There would somehow derail the whole investigation.

353
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 6: I just I just don't buy into that.

354
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 2: The Inquirer really argued that it was in the public's

355
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 2: best interest to know what the autopsy said and to review.

356
00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 2: I meant, what we learned from the autopsies is pretty

357
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 2: important in terms of what happened to the rod Ends.

358
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 2: We learned how many times they were shot, where they

359
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,159
Speaker 2: were shot, which really did speak to how personal the

360
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 2: crimes were. Some of these family members were shot multiple

361
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 2: times in the face with a shotgun, and so if

362
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 2: this was a drug cartel hit, you know, it wasn't

363
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 2: once and quick. It was personal and it was an overkill,

364
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 2: which is what we learned from the autopsies.

365
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 3: Once these autopsies would be released, here we go again,

366
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 3: more questions with few answers, and sure enough, that's exactly

367
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,400
Speaker 3: what happened. Thankfully we have this information and we could

368
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 3: actually really look at these autopsy reports in great detail,

369
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 3: and I can speak for myself saying it was really

370
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 3: dark and twisted when you really do see just how

371
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 3: much to your point, Chef of an overkill.

372
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 1: This really was.

373
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it made me think like what releasing this autopsy

374
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 2: would do to the town of piked In and speaking

375
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 2: to a fair amount of the residents and just the

376
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 2: feeling of uncertainty. I don't know how it would if

377
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 2: it was a good thing or a bad thing, because

378
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: the people in piked In were thinking it was a

379
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 2: drug cartel who did this prior to the autopsy release,

380
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 2: and that created a sense of fear. But then I

381
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 2: think after the autopsies were released, people started circling in

382
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 2: on the Wagners and really thinking they did it, which

383
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: created a whole other set of problems in terms of

384
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 2: this kind of small town justice that the Wagner's faced,

385
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 2: whether they deserve it or not, creates a whole new

386
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 2: problem for the sheriff's office.

387
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back

388
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: in a moment. So we were talking about the informant,

389
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: which we've covered in the past, but I know there's

390
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: been some other questions out there.

391
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Woody from Comack, New York asked us on

392
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 2: social media about the likelihood that the informant is in

393
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 2: fact one of the Wagner four.

394
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 3: I'm obsessed with understanding more about the informant personally, So

395
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 3: you definitely think it must be a family member.

396
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: Who must is a strong statement. I think the likelihood,

397
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: I think it seems likely only because if this family

398
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: allegedly did commit this careful, careful, planned out murders that

399
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: they spent months planning, why would they then be so

400
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: careless and have someone else involved enough with the information

401
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: that they could turn state's evidence. So to me, it

402
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 1: says that if they kept it all within the family,

403
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: then necessarily it would have to be someone in the family.

404
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 1: It's unknowable at this point, but that's what makes sense

405
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 1: to me.

406
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 3: Is it possible that it's Rita Angela Wagner's mother because

407
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 3: she would have maybe been witnessed of some of these conversations.

408
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 3: I mean, it's possible that it's any of them, assuming

409
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 3: it's one of the four. Let's just play this out

410
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 3: for a second. If Courtney, if you're correct, and it's

411
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 3: one of the four of the Wagners that are the accused.

412
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 3: To me, if one of them was going to fold, George,

413
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 3: the eldest son, seems the most likely, And for that

414
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 3: I say simply because he had the least amount of

415
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 3: skin in the game. If he wasn't fighting for his

416
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 3: niece solely, you know, he wasn't you know, maybe supercharged

417
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 3: by love the way Jake was. He wasn't supercharged about

418
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 3: protecting his children the way Angela maybe was about her

419
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 3: son Jake and her granddaughter. We know the dads potentially

420
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 3: had some sort of a confrontation leading up that could

421
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 3: be you know, charged by emotion. But that said, he

422
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 3: turns now he's the one asking for solitary confinement in

423
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: a bible. The fact that they were trying to get

424
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 3: George Wagner off on bail very recently, that would speak

425
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 3: to this as well. That A, he's the informant b

426
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 3: just through the basic ways that you would be released

427
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 3: from prison on bail. They made that attempt. It was

428
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 3: unsuccessful on the behalf of the defense, but that is

429
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 3: interesting strategy. By the way, how shocking would this be

430
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 3: if George Wagner, the eldest son, had to actually appear

431
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 3: in court and testify against his mother and his father

432
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 3: and his younger brother Jake.

433
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 1: That would be shocking. So while it is all speculation,

434
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: it is all possible, and several reputable sources have said

435
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: it's not the most unlikely thing. Just as a legal reminder, Angela,

436
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: Billy Jake, and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder.

437
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner's mother Rita Joe Nukomb and Billy Wagner's mother

438
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: Frederica were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury.

439
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: Nucomb was also charged with forgery. All six of them

440
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: pled not guilty, and our justice system presumes innocence until

441
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: guilt is proven. Jody Barr, who we heard from throughout

442
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: the course of this podcast, has summed up pretty well

443
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: how the three of us feel about this case.

444
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 7: Soby this is a case that I think about it.

445
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure every day.

446
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 7: And you know again, that's why I'm very eager to

447
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 7: hear from Yeah, I just want to see this trial.

448
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 7: I want to know more about what happened here and

449
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 7: if they really do have the right people. Sounds like

450
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 7: they do. I mean, these indictments are.

451
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 4: Very linked in very detailed, but that's only.

452
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 7: One side of this. I want to hear from the

453
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 7: Wagoners and see if they have an explanation because at

454
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 7: the end of the day, when the last trial is

455
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 7: held and the last jury, if it gets to that point,

456
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 7: you know, I would hope that the Rodent family can

457
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 7: walk out of that courtroom and know for sure that

458
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 7: the people who did this are the people who go

459
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 7: to prison for it. I can't think of a better

460
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 7: way to hand down justice.

461
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 3: We've talked about this a lot, and people ask us,

462
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 3: you know why we work in crime investigations in general,

463
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 3: and I think their truth is victims have a voice

464
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 3: even after death, and for us, we really do want

465
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 3: to share our deepest sympathy with the Rodent family.

466
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: I think the point of this podcast is to really

467
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: angle towards shining light on the injustices that the Rodent

468
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: family faced and help bring a sense of closure and

469
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: answers to the surviving Rodin family.

470
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 5: Well.

471
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 3: I think also when the Wagners finally do have their

472
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 3: day in court, our hope is that the Rodents finally

473
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 3: see justice.

474
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: Piked In Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Leidecker and

475
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by executive producer

476
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker.

477
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: The Piked In Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and

478
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: KAT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

479
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.