1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,196 --> 00:00:20,116 Speaker 2: He's giving us the thumbs of our air coups, so 3 00:00:20,156 --> 00:00:23,436 Speaker 2: as usual, we just have you start by introducing yourself. 4 00:00:24,276 --> 00:00:25,436 Speaker 3: Hi. I'm Dan Gilbert. 5 00:00:26,076 --> 00:00:28,956 Speaker 2: Dan Gilbert is a huge figure and happiness science. He's 6 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:31,876 Speaker 2: one of the field's most respected psychologists and in absolute 7 00:00:31,876 --> 00:00:35,076 Speaker 2: whiz explaining some of the most puzzling aspects of human nature. 8 00:00:35,596 --> 00:00:37,796 Speaker 2: And that is going to be a big help because 9 00:00:37,796 --> 00:00:40,156 Speaker 2: the question I have for him is as confounding as 10 00:00:40,156 --> 00:00:43,076 Speaker 2: it is serious. With Earth Month coming up in April, 11 00:00:43,276 --> 00:00:45,556 Speaker 2: I wanted to reshare this episode with Dan that we 12 00:00:45,596 --> 00:00:47,036 Speaker 2: originally released last year. 13 00:00:47,556 --> 00:00:48,676 Speaker 1: For decades, we've been. 14 00:00:48,596 --> 00:00:51,476 Speaker 2: Dealing with a host of disasters related to global heating, 15 00:00:51,956 --> 00:00:56,836 Speaker 2: raging forest fires, devastating hurricanes, and retreating glaciers. Hearing about 16 00:00:56,876 --> 00:01:00,076 Speaker 2: these things makes us feel pretty terrible. We feel anxious 17 00:01:00,076 --> 00:01:02,996 Speaker 2: about our future and that of our children. We get 18 00:01:03,036 --> 00:01:05,916 Speaker 2: anxious with ourselves and others for letting things get this bad, 19 00:01:06,356 --> 00:01:08,836 Speaker 2: and we feel overwhelmed and pretty helpless in the face 20 00:01:08,876 --> 00:01:11,516 Speaker 2: of such a big challenge. I wanted Dan to help 21 00:01:11,556 --> 00:01:15,156 Speaker 2: me answer a vexing psychological question. We've been talking about 22 00:01:15,156 --> 00:01:18,836 Speaker 2: the catastrophic danger of global warming for several decades, but 23 00:01:18,876 --> 00:01:21,636 Speaker 2: people are still debating whether it's a real crisis and 24 00:01:21,676 --> 00:01:24,596 Speaker 2: how urgently we need to act to fix it, which 25 00:01:24,636 --> 00:01:26,916 Speaker 2: is kind of weird because it seems like humans should 26 00:01:26,916 --> 00:01:30,156 Speaker 2: be pretty good at dealing with life threatening situations. I mean, 27 00:01:30,276 --> 00:01:33,436 Speaker 2: we've had millions of years of evolution. Our brains should 28 00:01:33,436 --> 00:01:36,476 Speaker 2: be amazing threat detectors. They should be good at noting 29 00:01:36,476 --> 00:01:39,516 Speaker 2: when we're in danger and taking action. Why then, do 30 00:01:39,596 --> 00:01:41,436 Speaker 2: so many of us seem to be ignoring a threat 31 00:01:41,476 --> 00:01:43,556 Speaker 2: big enough to wipe out our entire planet. 32 00:01:44,036 --> 00:01:45,156 Speaker 1: The action comes from the. 33 00:01:45,076 --> 00:01:47,316 Speaker 2: Fact that our brains are built to deal only with 34 00:01:47,476 --> 00:01:50,556 Speaker 2: certain kinds of threats. If a saber toothed tiger jumps 35 00:01:50,596 --> 00:01:52,676 Speaker 2: out at you from a bush, you'd address that threat 36 00:01:52,756 --> 00:01:55,116 Speaker 2: as best as you could right away. But if I 37 00:01:55,196 --> 00:01:57,716 Speaker 2: tell you you should probably change your diet or flash 38 00:01:57,756 --> 00:02:01,276 Speaker 2: your teeth to reduce clear risk of health problems developing decades. 39 00:02:00,876 --> 00:02:02,236 Speaker 1: From now, you might dither. 40 00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:04,796 Speaker 2: It's why we're bad at putting money into our four 41 00:02:04,836 --> 00:02:07,636 Speaker 2: to one ks, and why we sometimes don't put in 42 00:02:07,676 --> 00:02:08,836 Speaker 2: the work to make our happiness. 43 00:02:08,836 --> 00:02:10,676 Speaker 1: Practice is part of our daily lives. 44 00:02:11,036 --> 00:02:13,716 Speaker 2: We're great at addressing the urgent problems, but we're not 45 00:02:13,756 --> 00:02:16,436 Speaker 2: so hot when it comes to tackling other important ones, 46 00:02:17,036 --> 00:02:19,676 Speaker 2: and when those important things do become urgent and messy, 47 00:02:19,996 --> 00:02:23,076 Speaker 2: we wind up kicking ourselves for not acting sooner. And 48 00:02:23,116 --> 00:02:25,236 Speaker 2: that's why I was so excited to talk with Harvard 49 00:02:25,236 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 2: professor Dan Gilbert. He's been thinking about this mind biased 50 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:31,836 Speaker 2: for decades. He wondered why government seems so bad at 51 00:02:31,876 --> 00:02:35,036 Speaker 2: coordinating response to climate change, even though they're really good 52 00:02:35,076 --> 00:02:37,916 Speaker 2: at urgent action following events like terrorist attacks. 53 00:02:38,796 --> 00:02:42,636 Speaker 3: You know, everybody in America had a reaction to nine 54 00:02:42,676 --> 00:02:45,516 Speaker 3: to eleven, and all of us had the reaction. This 55 00:02:45,676 --> 00:02:48,316 Speaker 3: is terrible, and thousands of people have died. But because 56 00:02:48,316 --> 00:02:51,596 Speaker 3: I'm a psychologist, I also had another reaction, which is, 57 00:02:52,356 --> 00:02:57,996 Speaker 3: why are we not equally concerned about all things that 58 00:02:58,076 --> 00:03:02,396 Speaker 3: have killed even more people in our country? Ranging from 59 00:03:02,716 --> 00:03:06,676 Speaker 3: climate change to the flu. Many more people have died, 60 00:03:06,756 --> 00:03:10,196 Speaker 3: So why are we so concerned about one thing and 61 00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:14,796 Speaker 3: willing to sacrifice everything from resources to personal liberty to 62 00:03:14,836 --> 00:03:18,516 Speaker 3: fight it, But these other threats that are even greater 63 00:03:18,596 --> 00:03:22,236 Speaker 3: in magnitude, arguably we're willing to do nothing about. That 64 00:03:22,356 --> 00:03:25,916 Speaker 3: seemed to me a curious question that was ripe for 65 00:03:25,996 --> 00:03:27,676 Speaker 3: a psychological answer. 66 00:03:27,596 --> 00:03:30,236 Speaker 2: And you really applied that question directly to climate change too. 67 00:03:30,516 --> 00:03:33,076 Speaker 2: You'd think that if we knew the real threat, which 68 00:03:33,076 --> 00:03:35,476 Speaker 2: a lot of people say that they do, we'd be 69 00:03:35,516 --> 00:03:37,756 Speaker 2: freaked out and we'd be acting. But we're kind of not. 70 00:03:38,196 --> 00:03:41,036 Speaker 2: And so talk to me a little bit why evolutionarily 71 00:03:41,076 --> 00:03:42,076 Speaker 2: this might be the case. 72 00:03:42,596 --> 00:03:45,596 Speaker 3: Well, you know, several hundred years ago, two very smart 73 00:03:45,596 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 3: guys named Pascal and Vermont told us how we ought 74 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:52,156 Speaker 3: to think about threats. We ought to think about their likelihood, 75 00:03:52,556 --> 00:03:54,916 Speaker 3: and we ought to think about their magnitude. And those 76 00:03:54,996 --> 00:03:58,796 Speaker 3: two things tell us whether a threat really warrants our attention, 77 00:03:59,156 --> 00:04:01,156 Speaker 3: if it's really likely to happen and it's going to 78 00:04:01,156 --> 00:04:03,836 Speaker 3: be a very very bad outcome, if it does, take action, 79 00:04:04,156 --> 00:04:06,876 Speaker 3: If not, then don't. That's all logical, but it's not 80 00:04:06,996 --> 00:04:11,636 Speaker 3: very psychological because human beings, we're not evolved to compute 81 00:04:11,676 --> 00:04:15,076 Speaker 3: expected utility, if you will. Rather, we were evolved to 82 00:04:15,156 --> 00:04:18,836 Speaker 3: respond to a small set of threats that were really 83 00:04:19,076 --> 00:04:22,596 Speaker 3: big problems for our ancestors living in the African savannah. 84 00:04:22,636 --> 00:04:27,356 Speaker 3: And unfortunately, climate change has none of the features that 85 00:04:27,516 --> 00:04:30,756 Speaker 3: trigger this threat response system in the human brain. 86 00:04:30,956 --> 00:04:33,196 Speaker 2: And so let's talk about some of those four features. 87 00:04:33,236 --> 00:04:35,276 Speaker 2: The first one that you've talked about is that threats 88 00:04:35,316 --> 00:04:39,356 Speaker 2: have to be kind of agentive, they have to involve individuals. 89 00:04:39,636 --> 00:04:41,916 Speaker 2: Why do we really care about threats that come from people. 90 00:04:42,196 --> 00:04:44,556 Speaker 3: Well, we care about everything that comes from people, and 91 00:04:44,596 --> 00:04:48,676 Speaker 3: for good reason. People are the most significant source of 92 00:04:48,716 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 3: rewards and punishments for an animal like us. We're the 93 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:56,116 Speaker 3: most social animal on the planet Earth. So it's no 94 00:04:56,236 --> 00:04:58,716 Speaker 3: wonder and it's for good reason that we care a 95 00:04:58,756 --> 00:05:01,356 Speaker 3: lot about what other people do, what other people think, 96 00:05:01,396 --> 00:05:05,236 Speaker 3: and what other people say. With that said, climate change 97 00:05:05,316 --> 00:05:08,316 Speaker 3: is not an attack by a mean group of people 98 00:05:08,316 --> 00:05:11,676 Speaker 3: who are running at us with sticks, and that's what 99 00:05:11,676 --> 00:05:15,036 Speaker 3: we're evolved to respond to. I mean, look what happened 100 00:05:15,356 --> 00:05:18,116 Speaker 3: when the twin Towers came down and we went and 101 00:05:18,156 --> 00:05:21,076 Speaker 3: invaded a country because they had murdered three thousand people. 102 00:05:21,236 --> 00:05:24,116 Speaker 3: Those three thousand people had died from the flu. And 103 00:05:24,156 --> 00:05:26,036 Speaker 3: by the way, it's ten times that who die from 104 00:05:26,036 --> 00:05:29,236 Speaker 3: the flu every year. We just kind of hum along 105 00:05:29,316 --> 00:05:31,516 Speaker 3: and don't worry too much about it. So that's the 106 00:05:31,636 --> 00:05:34,316 Speaker 3: tragedy of climate change is that it doesn't have a face. 107 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:36,236 Speaker 3: It seems like a non agentic threat. 108 00:05:36,316 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 1: It also seems to not have an intent. 109 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:40,116 Speaker 2: You made this quip in one of your articles that 110 00:05:40,156 --> 00:05:43,276 Speaker 2: if climate change was trying to kill us, then we'd 111 00:05:43,316 --> 00:05:45,596 Speaker 2: take it very seriously. You know, talk about the power 112 00:05:45,596 --> 00:05:47,876 Speaker 2: of intent and why that matters for our psychology. 113 00:05:47,996 --> 00:05:51,076 Speaker 3: Well, we all know that if somebody pushes you in 114 00:05:51,116 --> 00:05:53,636 Speaker 3: the street and goes, oh, excuse me, I tripped, you're 115 00:05:53,676 --> 00:05:56,556 Speaker 3: not alarmed at all. But if they say, hey, take that, 116 00:05:57,116 --> 00:05:59,876 Speaker 3: suddenly you rise up with full force, You call the police, 117 00:05:59,916 --> 00:06:02,676 Speaker 3: you hit them back, you start yelling. So whether people 118 00:06:02,676 --> 00:06:05,836 Speaker 3: intend to harm us or not is almost more important 119 00:06:05,836 --> 00:06:08,676 Speaker 3: than the harm they inflict. Will forgive almost anything that's 120 00:06:08,676 --> 00:06:12,676 Speaker 3: an axis, and we will prosecute almost anything that isn't. 121 00:06:12,996 --> 00:06:17,596 Speaker 3: Climate change isn't. Nobody's actually trying to make the climate warmer, 122 00:06:17,716 --> 00:06:21,036 Speaker 3: nobody's trying to melt the polarized caps. People are doing 123 00:06:21,116 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 3: it as a result of their activity, but it's pretty 124 00:06:23,356 --> 00:06:26,356 Speaker 3: incidental to the activities that they're performing, you know, in 125 00:06:26,396 --> 00:06:29,396 Speaker 3: a way. That's too bad. We can't get too excited 126 00:06:29,396 --> 00:06:33,956 Speaker 3: about it because there's nobody who's meaning ill behind it. 127 00:06:34,276 --> 00:06:36,476 Speaker 2: And I love when our psychology gets really tripped up 128 00:06:36,476 --> 00:06:39,476 Speaker 2: by this. I remember one study where you had neuroscientists 129 00:06:39,476 --> 00:06:41,556 Speaker 2: putting people in a scanner, and these people were getting 130 00:06:41,556 --> 00:06:44,116 Speaker 2: the subjects were getting shocked, and the shocks varied whether 131 00:06:44,116 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 2: they were just kind of random, accidental shocks that were happening, 132 00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:49,916 Speaker 2: or there was somebody sitting behind the thing who intended 133 00:06:49,956 --> 00:06:52,156 Speaker 2: to shock you. And if you look at pain regions 134 00:06:52,156 --> 00:06:54,996 Speaker 2: in the rain, we actually feel more pain when we're 135 00:06:54,996 --> 00:06:57,756 Speaker 2: getting shocks that are intended when somebody's trying to give 136 00:06:57,796 --> 00:06:59,916 Speaker 2: them to us. And I think that's so powerful when 137 00:06:59,916 --> 00:07:02,196 Speaker 2: we think about climate change, because the fact that nobody's 138 00:07:02,276 --> 00:07:04,436 Speaker 2: trying to do it makes it just kind of like 139 00:07:04,476 --> 00:07:07,196 Speaker 2: water off a duck's back when we think about it psychologically. 140 00:07:07,356 --> 00:07:10,556 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a little less shocking, isn't it exactly? 141 00:07:10,716 --> 00:07:12,996 Speaker 2: And so the next kind of thing you've talked about 142 00:07:13,036 --> 00:07:15,316 Speaker 2: the fact that our brains tend to respond a lot 143 00:07:15,356 --> 00:07:18,036 Speaker 2: to threats that are immoral. And this one's kind of 144 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:19,996 Speaker 2: interesting because you know, in some ways you could think that, 145 00:07:20,076 --> 00:07:22,596 Speaker 2: you know, the destruction of a planet is actually causing harm, 146 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:25,276 Speaker 2: but moral harms tend to work a little bit differently. 147 00:07:25,356 --> 00:07:27,236 Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about how moral harms work. 148 00:07:27,516 --> 00:07:29,756 Speaker 3: You know, this is very intertwined with the first thing 149 00:07:29,796 --> 00:07:33,716 Speaker 3: we talked about with intentionality and agents, because moral harms 150 00:07:33,716 --> 00:07:37,716 Speaker 3: are harms from agents, but they are by moral harms. 151 00:07:37,756 --> 00:07:39,916 Speaker 3: I guess I'm talking about things that are more like 152 00:07:40,076 --> 00:07:44,116 Speaker 3: insults than injuries. And we are evolved to care a 153 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:48,356 Speaker 3: lot about insults because insults to our honor, insults to 154 00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 3: our face are in some sense reducing our or threats 155 00:07:53,116 --> 00:07:56,516 Speaker 3: to reduce our place in a social hierarchy. And so 156 00:07:56,636 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 3: we're very, very concerned with our reputations. What would people 157 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:03,436 Speaker 3: think of us? You know, I could probably steal your 158 00:08:03,476 --> 00:08:06,596 Speaker 3: pencil or you know, bump into your car and you 159 00:08:06,636 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 3: wouldn't get too upset about it. But if I called 160 00:08:08,876 --> 00:08:12,796 Speaker 3: your mother a dirty name, you would rise up viciously 161 00:08:12,876 --> 00:08:16,356 Speaker 3: and attack me. Why there's really no harm done, is there? Well, 162 00:08:16,396 --> 00:08:19,316 Speaker 3: the answer is yes, it's a moral harm. It violates 163 00:08:19,356 --> 00:08:22,196 Speaker 3: your sense of what's fair and just and right. So 164 00:08:22,236 --> 00:08:26,236 Speaker 3: we respond to moral harms with great power. And climate 165 00:08:26,316 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 3: change isn't a moral harm, is it. I mean, it's 166 00:08:28,236 --> 00:08:29,996 Speaker 3: going to ruin our air, in our water, and it's 167 00:08:29,996 --> 00:08:32,916 Speaker 3: going to make the world hot. But it's not insulting us, 168 00:08:32,996 --> 00:08:34,676 Speaker 3: it's not attacking our religion. 169 00:08:34,916 --> 00:08:36,916 Speaker 2: I mean, but it's incredible right that we're not getting 170 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:38,956 Speaker 2: freaked out about burning. So much coal, But we are 171 00:08:38,956 --> 00:08:41,556 Speaker 2: getting freaked out about, say, burning a single flag when 172 00:08:41,596 --> 00:08:43,676 Speaker 2: somebody does that. Now, all of a sudden, our moral 173 00:08:43,676 --> 00:08:45,596 Speaker 2: emotions are kind of going nut. 174 00:08:45,596 --> 00:08:48,836 Speaker 3: So yeah, they are. And it's easy to understand why 175 00:08:48,916 --> 00:08:51,956 Speaker 3: we care so much about these things. And the question 176 00:08:52,076 --> 00:08:56,556 Speaker 3: is whether we can subjugate this natural response. And you know, 177 00:08:56,636 --> 00:08:59,556 Speaker 3: get on board with those two French guys, Pascal and Vermont, 178 00:08:59,596 --> 00:09:02,076 Speaker 3: and say, you know what, flag burning It isn't very nice. 179 00:09:02,116 --> 00:09:04,596 Speaker 3: We don't much like it, but maybe we could worry 180 00:09:04,636 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 3: about that tomorrow after we've saved the planet. 181 00:09:07,676 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 2: Your moral point is really important because it suggests that 182 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:12,476 Speaker 2: climate change can make us scared, but it doesn't make 183 00:09:12,556 --> 00:09:15,116 Speaker 2: us outraged. And it seems like outrage is a sort 184 00:09:15,116 --> 00:09:17,196 Speaker 2: of special kind of emotion when it comes to causing 185 00:09:17,276 --> 00:09:18,076 Speaker 2: us to take action. 186 00:09:18,356 --> 00:09:20,236 Speaker 3: It really is, isn't it. I mean, you don't have 187 00:09:20,276 --> 00:09:23,236 Speaker 3: to spend too much time online to realize that it 188 00:09:23,316 --> 00:09:28,356 Speaker 3: is the fundamental driver of most people's online behavior on 189 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:32,596 Speaker 3: platforms like x formerly known as Twitter and others. It's 190 00:09:32,676 --> 00:09:37,996 Speaker 3: about moral outrage. Now, we occasionally feel moral outrage about 191 00:09:38,236 --> 00:09:42,956 Speaker 3: environmental disasters. If Exon, you know, runs their tanker into 192 00:09:42,996 --> 00:09:46,996 Speaker 3: an Heisberg, and you know, thousands of gallons spill and 193 00:09:47,116 --> 00:09:49,956 Speaker 3: penguins are dying. We all rise up and say, how 194 00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:52,236 Speaker 3: can you do this? You have to clean it up, right. 195 00:09:52,436 --> 00:09:56,196 Speaker 3: It's not like the domain of the environment is completely 196 00:09:56,236 --> 00:09:59,956 Speaker 3: insulated from the moral domain. It's just that when we 197 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:03,716 Speaker 3: hear there a glaciers melting and the seas are rising 198 00:10:03,756 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 3: and it's just getting warmer, we can't point to any 199 00:10:07,476 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 3: particular agent who is doing this in order to harm 200 00:10:10,756 --> 00:10:13,196 Speaker 3: us or insult us, and so it just doesn't get 201 00:10:13,196 --> 00:10:15,876 Speaker 3: our blood pressure up in the same way that calling 202 00:10:15,916 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 3: your mother a bad name does. 203 00:10:17,516 --> 00:10:19,436 Speaker 2: And your Eglon example is great because I think it 204 00:10:19,476 --> 00:10:21,716 Speaker 2: gets to the third feature that I think that gets 205 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:25,796 Speaker 2: our minds going, which is things that happen instantaneously. You know, 206 00:10:25,836 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 2: the eggs on disaster you described is oil pouring out 207 00:10:29,396 --> 00:10:33,436 Speaker 2: right now. It's happening immediately, and these immediate threats seem 208 00:10:33,476 --> 00:10:35,476 Speaker 2: to be ones that also really kind of get us going. 209 00:10:35,516 --> 00:10:37,316 Speaker 2: You've described the mind as a sort of get out 210 00:10:37,356 --> 00:10:39,476 Speaker 2: of the wave machine. Like, talk a little bit about 211 00:10:39,476 --> 00:10:40,196 Speaker 2: what you mean by that. 212 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:42,556 Speaker 3: We're very good at getting out of the way, aren't we. 213 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:45,116 Speaker 3: If I throw something at you, you will duck before 214 00:10:45,276 --> 00:10:49,036 Speaker 3: you even know it's coming. Your brain responds so quickly 215 00:10:49,156 --> 00:10:53,236 Speaker 3: to threats that appear immediately and instantly in your environment. 216 00:10:54,196 --> 00:10:57,156 Speaker 3: Most environmental threats are not like that. I mean, occasionally 217 00:10:57,156 --> 00:10:59,436 Speaker 3: they are. There's an oil spill one day, the water 218 00:10:59,596 --> 00:11:02,796 Speaker 3: was cleaned, the next day it's dirty. But by and large, 219 00:11:02,956 --> 00:11:05,596 Speaker 3: the temperature on Earth is not going to increase by 220 00:11:05,596 --> 00:11:10,076 Speaker 3: twenty degrees tomorrow. It's going to increase by point oh 221 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:14,516 Speaker 3: one and then the same amount the next day. We're 222 00:11:14,516 --> 00:11:17,316 Speaker 3: all familiar with the frog that never jumps out of 223 00:11:17,316 --> 00:11:19,916 Speaker 3: the water because the water is being heated from room 224 00:11:19,956 --> 00:11:23,236 Speaker 3: temperature to boiling very slowly. That's not a bad parable 225 00:11:23,276 --> 00:11:26,116 Speaker 3: for the place we are right now with regard to 226 00:11:26,196 --> 00:11:30,436 Speaker 3: the environment. These changes are going to be devastating, but 227 00:11:30,596 --> 00:11:35,796 Speaker 3: not tomorrow and not instantly. Things will change at the 228 00:11:35,876 --> 00:11:38,756 Speaker 3: speed at which we can adapt to them. And we 229 00:11:38,796 --> 00:11:40,676 Speaker 3: are remarkable adapters. 230 00:11:40,276 --> 00:11:43,236 Speaker 2: And so these instant changes are ones that we notice quickly. 231 00:11:43,516 --> 00:11:45,196 Speaker 2: But it is the case that we have minds that 232 00:11:45,236 --> 00:11:47,236 Speaker 2: can pay a little bit of attention to the future. 233 00:11:47,596 --> 00:11:49,716 Speaker 2: But a lot of your work has shown how bad 234 00:11:49,756 --> 00:11:51,716 Speaker 2: we are at doing that. Like it's this kind of 235 00:11:51,716 --> 00:11:53,996 Speaker 2: cool thing that our species can do. But it's still 236 00:11:54,036 --> 00:11:56,316 Speaker 2: a capacity that's a little bit in beta version. 237 00:11:56,636 --> 00:12:01,196 Speaker 3: This is a remarkably evolutionarily speaking, it's a remarkably new capacity. 238 00:12:01,396 --> 00:12:05,876 Speaker 3: We shouldn't be surprised that its reach is limited. I mean, 239 00:12:05,916 --> 00:12:08,516 Speaker 3: we really should be surprised that we have it at all, because, 240 00:12:08,516 --> 00:12:11,156 Speaker 3: as far as you know, no other animal does at 241 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:14,756 Speaker 3: least nothing like our ability to look into the far 242 00:12:14,836 --> 00:12:20,156 Speaker 3: future and reason about it. But with that said, every 243 00:12:20,276 --> 00:12:23,876 Speaker 3: day we see people failing to use this capacity, at 244 00:12:23,956 --> 00:12:27,396 Speaker 3: least as logic would have us. People don't save enough 245 00:12:27,436 --> 00:12:31,556 Speaker 3: for retirement. People don't floss when they know that little 246 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:34,956 Speaker 3: act would save them a lot of dental pain down 247 00:12:34,996 --> 00:12:38,316 Speaker 3: the road. People eat badly and say I'll die it tomorrow. 248 00:12:38,436 --> 00:12:42,236 Speaker 3: Why well, because it's kind of hard to take actions 249 00:12:42,276 --> 00:12:45,756 Speaker 3: that are difficult today in the service of someone you're 250 00:12:45,796 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 3: going to be in the far future. Climate change. You know, 251 00:12:50,476 --> 00:12:52,996 Speaker 3: I could have just been describing it. So I should 252 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:55,396 Speaker 3: go spend a lot of money changing all my light 253 00:12:55,516 --> 00:13:00,156 Speaker 3: bulbs because maybe someday that will help someone who isn't me. 254 00:13:01,836 --> 00:13:03,436 Speaker 3: That's pretty hard for most people to do. 255 00:13:03,636 --> 00:13:05,316 Speaker 2: Another thing that's hard for people to do is to 256 00:13:05,356 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 2: deal with these threats when they're not instantaneous when they're 257 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:11,076 Speaker 2: not happening really quickly, as you mentioned. And this seems 258 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:13,276 Speaker 2: to be kind of related to a different happiness bias 259 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 2: that we've talked a lot of this podcasts, right, that 260 00:13:15,316 --> 00:13:18,116 Speaker 2: we kind of get used to stuff over time because 261 00:13:18,156 --> 00:13:21,316 Speaker 2: these changes are happening so slowly. It's not the kind 262 00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:23,676 Speaker 2: of thing where the temperature changes so quickly and I 263 00:13:23,716 --> 00:13:25,956 Speaker 2: tend to notice it. It tends to kind of go 264 00:13:26,036 --> 00:13:28,396 Speaker 2: under the radar. And this is part and parcel of 265 00:13:28,436 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 2: a bigger kind of problem for our happiness. Right, this 266 00:13:30,916 --> 00:13:33,556 Speaker 2: idea of adaptation, tell me what adamptation is and why 267 00:13:33,596 --> 00:13:34,516 Speaker 2: it's so problematic. 268 00:13:34,796 --> 00:13:37,676 Speaker 3: Well, people do get used to things, of course, but 269 00:13:37,716 --> 00:13:41,036 Speaker 3: they get used to them much better than they themselves predict. 270 00:13:41,156 --> 00:13:46,236 Speaker 3: We are world champion habituators and adapters and that's usually 271 00:13:46,276 --> 00:13:49,476 Speaker 3: really good. That means when bad things happen in our lives, 272 00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:52,356 Speaker 3: you know, we lose the use of a limb, or 273 00:13:53,156 --> 00:13:57,516 Speaker 3: relationship status changes from married to divorce, or any of 274 00:13:57,556 --> 00:14:00,876 Speaker 3: the normal slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that befall 275 00:14:00,996 --> 00:14:04,196 Speaker 3: people every day. We get on board with the new 276 00:14:04,236 --> 00:14:08,676 Speaker 3: program and we basically do just fine. But this remarkable 277 00:14:08,716 --> 00:14:11,716 Speaker 3: ability to adapt can also be our enemy, because it 278 00:14:11,796 --> 00:14:17,476 Speaker 3: makes us not react to bad things that happen slowly 279 00:14:17,596 --> 00:14:20,676 Speaker 3: enough for us to get used to them. My grandchildren 280 00:14:20,956 --> 00:14:23,996 Speaker 3: don't think there's anything odd about a river or a 281 00:14:24,116 --> 00:14:27,956 Speaker 3: stream that has a sign that says don't swim. When 282 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:30,036 Speaker 3: I was a kid, that would have been a science 283 00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:33,796 Speaker 3: fiction story. A stream or a river in which you 284 00:14:33,916 --> 00:14:36,876 Speaker 3: can't swim? What happened to the water? Well, what happened 285 00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 3: to the water in America? Has it got more polluted? 286 00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:41,836 Speaker 3: A little bit every day? I got used to it. 287 00:14:41,996 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 3: Whole generations are now being born who've never seen anything else. 288 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:48,196 Speaker 3: If tomorrow we were all told we could never go 289 00:14:48,316 --> 00:14:52,756 Speaker 3: outside our homes again, what would we do? I mean 290 00:14:52,836 --> 00:14:55,756 Speaker 3: we would riot, we would elect a new government, we 291 00:14:55,756 --> 00:14:59,356 Speaker 3: would protest in every possible way. But I assure you 292 00:14:59,556 --> 00:15:02,076 Speaker 3: that if the number of days you have to stay 293 00:15:02,076 --> 00:15:07,636 Speaker 3: indoors increases from zero to one next year, to two 294 00:15:07,796 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 3: the following year, in three hundred and sixty five years, 295 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:14,396 Speaker 3: people will not think it's strange that nobody ever can 296 00:15:14,476 --> 00:15:15,356 Speaker 3: go outdoors. 297 00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:17,716 Speaker 2: I think we even show this adaptation for things that 298 00:15:17,876 --> 00:15:20,596 Speaker 2: happen even a little bit more quickly. I remember this 299 00:15:20,716 --> 00:15:23,716 Speaker 2: year was the first year that I started noticing, you know, 300 00:15:23,796 --> 00:15:26,276 Speaker 2: the skies were looking hazy, because then the East coast 301 00:15:26,276 --> 00:15:28,596 Speaker 2: where I lived, there's so many fires happening in Canada. 302 00:15:28,756 --> 00:15:30,556 Speaker 2: I think the first day was really hazy, you know. 303 00:15:30,556 --> 00:15:32,636 Speaker 2: I remember my husband and I going outside and be like, wow, 304 00:15:32,676 --> 00:15:35,516 Speaker 2: it's so hazy. But day three, day four, all of 305 00:15:35,556 --> 00:15:37,636 Speaker 2: a sudden, I'm like, yeah, it's just hazy again. I've 306 00:15:37,636 --> 00:15:39,916 Speaker 2: sort of stopped remarking about it. So even some of 307 00:15:39,956 --> 00:15:42,676 Speaker 2: these changes that feel like they're happening a little bit faster, 308 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:45,036 Speaker 2: ones that we don't seem to notice that much. 309 00:15:44,836 --> 00:15:48,556 Speaker 3: We don't seem to notice, and we more importantly, we 310 00:15:48,676 --> 00:15:51,676 Speaker 3: don't object. And one reason we don't object, of course, 311 00:15:51,756 --> 00:15:53,756 Speaker 3: is because it's not just us. If you were the 312 00:15:53,796 --> 00:15:57,516 Speaker 3: only person who couldn't go outside, you'd be forming an 313 00:15:57,556 --> 00:16:00,316 Speaker 3: action group, you'd be writing to your senators. But it's 314 00:16:00,356 --> 00:16:03,276 Speaker 3: everybody else too, and none of them are going out. 315 00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:05,996 Speaker 3: And you know, what we think is normal is what 316 00:16:06,076 --> 00:16:09,396 Speaker 3: everybody is doing. That's the definition of normal for most people. 317 00:16:09,996 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 3: So as long as most people can't drink the water, 318 00:16:12,756 --> 00:16:15,996 Speaker 3: can't easily breathe the air, as long as most people 319 00:16:16,156 --> 00:16:21,716 Speaker 3: can't live south of Missouri, anymore. The other problem, of course, 320 00:16:21,796 --> 00:16:25,356 Speaker 3: is even if people thought, darn, this is really bad, 321 00:16:25,796 --> 00:16:28,596 Speaker 3: I need to do something, most people don't know what 322 00:16:28,636 --> 00:16:31,796 Speaker 3: they could do. They understand that climate change is far 323 00:16:31,836 --> 00:16:35,956 Speaker 3: too big a threat for anything they do today. To 324 00:16:36,036 --> 00:16:39,276 Speaker 3: make a bit of difference, it requires mass action. 325 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:42,076 Speaker 2: There's also lots of evidence that our actions, even though 326 00:16:42,076 --> 00:16:44,716 Speaker 2: we often think of them as happening in isolation, they don't. 327 00:16:45,036 --> 00:16:46,876 Speaker 2: You know. So if I put solar panels up, that 328 00:16:46,916 --> 00:16:49,396 Speaker 2: has an interesting effect on your psychology if you live 329 00:16:49,436 --> 00:16:51,716 Speaker 2: next door to me. So talk about how that effect 330 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:54,956 Speaker 2: might actually allow for collective action out of individual action. 331 00:16:55,116 --> 00:16:57,356 Speaker 3: Well, you're making a great point, which is that your 332 00:16:57,436 --> 00:17:01,716 Speaker 3: action has direct effects on problems. So you put solar 333 00:17:01,756 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 3: panels on your house and you have actually reduced the 334 00:17:04,716 --> 00:17:08,436 Speaker 3: electrical usage in your city by an extremely small amount. 335 00:17:09,116 --> 00:17:12,796 Speaker 3: We've also created an example. As we mentioned earlier, human 336 00:17:12,916 --> 00:17:17,116 Speaker 3: beings define normal by what they see done around them, 337 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:20,156 Speaker 3: and once solar panels are going up in the neighborhood, 338 00:17:20,196 --> 00:17:23,156 Speaker 3: it suddenly seems like a thing a reasonable person could do. 339 00:17:23,396 --> 00:17:26,916 Speaker 3: So there are these cascading effects. There are indirect effects 340 00:17:26,996 --> 00:17:28,236 Speaker 3: of doing the right thing. 341 00:17:30,796 --> 00:17:33,036 Speaker 2: One of the things I love about human psychology is 342 00:17:33,156 --> 00:17:36,436 Speaker 2: just how complicated it is. We have so many stubborn 343 00:17:36,436 --> 00:17:39,196 Speaker 2: biases that prevent us from doing stuff that will directly 344 00:17:39,196 --> 00:17:42,316 Speaker 2: benefit us and our planet. But there are also other 345 00:17:42,356 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 2: biases that we can harness for good, like Dan's example 346 00:17:45,516 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 2: of us wanting to emulate the environmental. 347 00:17:47,516 --> 00:17:48,596 Speaker 1: Habits of our neighbors. 348 00:17:49,436 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 2: So what other psychological hacks might help us deal more 349 00:17:52,556 --> 00:17:56,196 Speaker 2: effectively with climate change? Dan will tell us more after 350 00:17:56,236 --> 00:18:07,036 Speaker 2: the break. Tragically, climate change isn't the kind of threat 351 00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:10,036 Speaker 2: humans are good at dealing with. Wing into action if 352 00:18:10,036 --> 00:18:12,516 Speaker 2: we're put in danger by something sudden or by some 353 00:18:12,596 --> 00:18:16,036 Speaker 2: cruel person out to harm us, and Harvard's psychologist Dan 354 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:19,036 Speaker 2: Gilbert says we're also more likely to take action if 355 00:18:19,036 --> 00:18:21,676 Speaker 2: we think our individual behaviors will have a real effect 356 00:18:21,716 --> 00:18:25,236 Speaker 2: on the problem. Unfortunately, we don't always feel like that's 357 00:18:25,276 --> 00:18:27,836 Speaker 2: the case with an issue as huge as global heating. 358 00:18:29,156 --> 00:18:32,476 Speaker 3: Do I pay for offsetting the carbon on my next 359 00:18:32,596 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 3: airplane ride? Okay, I guess that would be good. But 360 00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:39,116 Speaker 3: surely if I do that or don't, I can't imagine 361 00:18:39,116 --> 00:18:41,676 Speaker 3: that the world will feel the effects of my tiny 362 00:18:41,836 --> 00:18:42,996 Speaker 3: little action. 363 00:18:43,836 --> 00:18:47,316 Speaker 2: But don't despair, because our mind's biases can be harnessed 364 00:18:47,356 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 2: to help solve environmental problems in the blink of an eye, 365 00:18:50,476 --> 00:18:53,076 Speaker 2: provided those problems are framed in the right way. 366 00:18:53,556 --> 00:18:57,116 Speaker 3: There is a wonderful study by Bob Chaldeeni and his group. 367 00:18:57,316 --> 00:18:59,636 Speaker 3: They just tried to find out if they could put 368 00:18:59,796 --> 00:19:05,236 Speaker 3: signs in hotel rooms that would make the person who 369 00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:08,156 Speaker 3: checked into that room a little more likely to reuse 370 00:19:08,196 --> 00:19:12,316 Speaker 3: their beth towels. Evidently, having somebody wash your towel every 371 00:19:12,396 --> 00:19:16,236 Speaker 3: day just because they will and it's free, is pretty 372 00:19:16,236 --> 00:19:18,796 Speaker 3: bad for the environment. So you can get hotel guests 373 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:21,196 Speaker 3: to use their towels for a couple of days as 374 00:19:21,236 --> 00:19:23,716 Speaker 3: they probably do at home, it's a great thing for 375 00:19:23,756 --> 00:19:27,036 Speaker 3: the environment. Well, Charldony and his team tried a number 376 00:19:27,076 --> 00:19:29,996 Speaker 3: of things. You can threaten people, you can cajole people, 377 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:32,996 Speaker 3: you can reward people. But the single most effective sign 378 00:19:33,076 --> 00:19:35,036 Speaker 3: that they put in the room was the one that 379 00:19:35,196 --> 00:19:38,316 Speaker 3: simply said, most of the guests who stay in this 380 00:19:38,476 --> 00:19:43,476 Speaker 3: room reuse their towels. Human beings want to be like 381 00:19:43,676 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 3: most people. If everyone's doing it, it's probably the right thing, 382 00:19:47,196 --> 00:19:50,916 Speaker 3: so I should do it too. And they played on 383 00:19:50,956 --> 00:19:53,996 Speaker 3: this little piece of psychology to great effect. You see 384 00:19:54,036 --> 00:19:55,836 Speaker 3: the same thing most of us. Now, when we get 385 00:19:55,916 --> 00:19:59,436 Speaker 3: an electric bill, it includes some little graph that shows 386 00:19:59,516 --> 00:20:02,516 Speaker 3: us how much electricity we're using compared to our neighbors. 387 00:20:03,236 --> 00:20:07,636 Speaker 3: Nobody did this fifteen years ago, but the Sacramento Municipal 388 00:20:07,756 --> 00:20:10,676 Speaker 3: Utility District, I believe, was the first to try this, 389 00:20:11,276 --> 00:20:15,156 Speaker 3: and suddenly people were embarrassed. I'm using way too much electricity. 390 00:20:15,436 --> 00:20:18,596 Speaker 3: Why because look how little other people are using. I 391 00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:20,996 Speaker 3: want to be like them. So this is a lever 392 00:20:21,156 --> 00:20:23,756 Speaker 3: we can push for the good of the world. But 393 00:20:23,876 --> 00:20:26,676 Speaker 3: whether it comes to climate change or anything else. When 394 00:20:26,676 --> 00:20:30,836 Speaker 3: I lived in Texas in the nineteen eighties, there was 395 00:20:30,876 --> 00:20:34,556 Speaker 3: a massive litter problem, and studies showed that a lot 396 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:37,756 Speaker 3: of highway litter was being thrown out of the windows 397 00:20:37,796 --> 00:20:41,716 Speaker 3: of pickup trucks by men between the ages of eighteen 398 00:20:41,796 --> 00:20:45,556 Speaker 3: and thirty two. And somebody somewhere deep in the bowels 399 00:20:45,596 --> 00:20:49,876 Speaker 3: of government, somebody who deserves a Nobel prize in my opinion, 400 00:20:50,436 --> 00:20:52,996 Speaker 3: had the idea of coming up with a slogan that 401 00:20:53,076 --> 00:20:57,836 Speaker 3: would appeal to this particular demographic, and it was now 402 00:20:57,996 --> 00:21:03,796 Speaker 3: the now famous don't mess with Texas seventy two percent 403 00:21:03,956 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 3: reduction in litter due to four really well play words Now, 404 00:21:12,996 --> 00:21:15,236 Speaker 3: in some sense, the person who came up with those 405 00:21:15,276 --> 00:21:18,996 Speaker 3: four words was appealing to a bias. They were appealing 406 00:21:19,036 --> 00:21:22,356 Speaker 3: to the fact that the litterers were young men with 407 00:21:22,436 --> 00:21:26,196 Speaker 3: great pride in their state who didn't want to be 408 00:21:26,316 --> 00:21:28,556 Speaker 3: messed with in any way. There was kind of a 409 00:21:28,596 --> 00:21:31,596 Speaker 3: macho element, and this message was crafted so that it 410 00:21:31,676 --> 00:21:35,436 Speaker 3: appealed to these people. I just think it's a masterful 411 00:21:35,476 --> 00:21:39,676 Speaker 3: example of how you can do very, very small things 412 00:21:39,716 --> 00:21:42,236 Speaker 3: to make a very big difference. 413 00:21:42,756 --> 00:21:44,996 Speaker 2: And those small things were powerful in part because they 414 00:21:45,036 --> 00:21:48,356 Speaker 2: played on this idea of our moral violations. They caused 415 00:21:48,356 --> 00:21:51,756 Speaker 2: people to see litter as outrageous rather than just kind 416 00:21:51,756 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 2: of annoying or dirty. Kind of played into our moral 417 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:55,556 Speaker 2: emotions they did. 418 00:21:55,556 --> 00:21:58,796 Speaker 3: Indeed, so throwing something out the window of a pickup 419 00:21:58,796 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 3: truck is not only a moral violation, but it's a 420 00:22:00,916 --> 00:22:07,756 Speaker 3: moral violation by somebody. Somebody, somebody is messing with Texes. Well, 421 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 3: we can't let that happen, can And this seems to be. 422 00:22:10,116 --> 00:22:13,436 Speaker 2: A strategy that climate change activists are using a little 423 00:22:13,476 --> 00:22:16,116 Speaker 2: bit more often. I'm not sure what's happening at Harvard, 424 00:22:16,116 --> 00:22:18,236 Speaker 2: but a lot of our climate activists on campus are 425 00:22:18,236 --> 00:22:20,956 Speaker 2: calling out the president and saying because Yale is investing 426 00:22:20,996 --> 00:22:25,316 Speaker 2: in fossil fuels, you know, President Peter Salave are causing 427 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:28,596 Speaker 2: this problem, and so talk about how this is activating 428 00:22:28,596 --> 00:22:30,556 Speaker 2: our psychology in a way that might get people to 429 00:22:30,596 --> 00:22:32,956 Speaker 2: sort of respond more than the normal techniques. 430 00:22:33,276 --> 00:22:35,356 Speaker 3: Well, I do think that if you can find a 431 00:22:35,436 --> 00:22:38,316 Speaker 3: face for the problem, you have some chance of getting 432 00:22:38,356 --> 00:22:41,676 Speaker 3: people more riled up about it. But I'm not sure 433 00:22:41,716 --> 00:22:45,596 Speaker 3: it's worked so far. I'm not sure naming the CEO 434 00:22:45,796 --> 00:22:50,116 Speaker 3: of Exxon makes people any more angry at Exon than 435 00:22:50,236 --> 00:22:54,036 Speaker 3: it just being a company they feel angry about. I 436 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:58,156 Speaker 3: understand the psychology behind the attempt. Let's blame somebody and 437 00:22:58,236 --> 00:23:01,916 Speaker 3: we can get everybody upset at this particular guy, then 438 00:23:01,956 --> 00:23:04,476 Speaker 3: they'll take action. Maybe they are data out there showing 439 00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:06,516 Speaker 3: they have but it sure doesn't look like it to me. 440 00:23:06,836 --> 00:23:08,876 Speaker 3: It just sounds like they're chanting a name and they're 441 00:23:09,236 --> 00:23:12,476 Speaker 3: holding somebody liable for the problems. My guess is most 442 00:23:12,516 --> 00:23:16,196 Speaker 3: of the public thinks this person isn't the evil actor 443 00:23:16,276 --> 00:23:19,196 Speaker 3: who if only we could assassinate them, everything would go 444 00:23:19,316 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 3: back to normal. 445 00:23:20,836 --> 00:23:23,836 Speaker 2: Another lever Weekend push is starting to recognize that climate 446 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 2: change is a little bit more immediate, which for better 447 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:29,316 Speaker 2: or for worse, Since you actually started talking about this, 448 00:23:29,436 --> 00:23:32,276 Speaker 2: we have started recognizing just because the problem has felt 449 00:23:32,316 --> 00:23:35,276 Speaker 2: more immediate. There's more fires, there's more terrible storms, and 450 00:23:35,316 --> 00:23:37,676 Speaker 2: so on. So you first started talking about this almost 451 00:23:37,716 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 2: twenty years ago, I don't know what does that make 452 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:42,876 Speaker 2: you feel like with these we've known about these biases 453 00:23:42,876 --> 00:23:44,276 Speaker 2: for a while, but we haven't taken action. 454 00:23:44,556 --> 00:23:47,636 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, twenty years ago I was telling people, you know, 455 00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:49,876 Speaker 3: one of the reasons we're not doing anything is we 456 00:23:49,876 --> 00:23:53,556 Speaker 3: don't see the effects of climate change yet. Well they're here. 457 00:23:53,836 --> 00:23:57,516 Speaker 3: They've arrived, and I do think there's been an uptick 458 00:23:57,756 --> 00:24:00,876 Speaker 3: in response to it because suddenly people are going the 459 00:24:01,036 --> 00:24:04,036 Speaker 3: reason it's too hot for me to go outside, the 460 00:24:04,116 --> 00:24:08,396 Speaker 3: reason planes can't land in Phoenix today, the reason we're 461 00:24:08,436 --> 00:24:11,756 Speaker 3: running out of the reason the hurricanes have gotten worse 462 00:24:11,956 --> 00:24:16,396 Speaker 3: is climate change. So finally the damage is arriving and 463 00:24:16,436 --> 00:24:20,516 Speaker 3: we are paying more attention. The problem is, this was 464 00:24:20,556 --> 00:24:23,716 Speaker 3: the kind of threat you needed to respond to before 465 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:28,996 Speaker 3: it arrived. Once it has arrived, it's too late. We 466 00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 3: need a much bigger response to get much less of 467 00:24:32,076 --> 00:24:35,436 Speaker 3: an outcome today than we did twenty years ago. But 468 00:24:35,516 --> 00:24:38,276 Speaker 3: it is upon us, and I think most people see 469 00:24:38,316 --> 00:24:41,076 Speaker 3: it and recognize it and now accept it. Remember twenty 470 00:24:41,156 --> 00:24:45,116 Speaker 3: years ago we had an entire wing of in our 471 00:24:45,156 --> 00:24:48,076 Speaker 3: democracy saying there is no such thing as climate change. 472 00:24:48,116 --> 00:24:50,876 Speaker 3: It isn't getting warmer, and if it is, it's only 473 00:24:50,916 --> 00:24:53,556 Speaker 3: an act of God. It has nothing to do with 474 00:24:53,596 --> 00:24:57,356 Speaker 3: our use of resources. So twenty years we've been fighting 475 00:24:57,356 --> 00:25:00,196 Speaker 3: against people who didn't even want to acknowledge it was happening, 476 00:25:00,516 --> 00:25:02,556 Speaker 3: much less asked the question about what should we do 477 00:25:02,636 --> 00:25:05,756 Speaker 3: about it. I think those people are finally in a minority, 478 00:25:05,836 --> 00:25:10,476 Speaker 3: even the Republican Party. Most Republicans are yes, the climate 479 00:25:10,556 --> 00:25:13,676 Speaker 3: is changing, Yes, we probably should do something about it. 480 00:25:13,876 --> 00:25:16,756 Speaker 3: And the discussion is only about what does something mean? 481 00:25:17,236 --> 00:25:19,636 Speaker 2: And I think this figuring out what something means actually 482 00:25:19,676 --> 00:25:21,316 Speaker 2: it gets back to another part of your work that 483 00:25:21,356 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 2: I think is so relevant for the climate discussion, which 484 00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:26,036 Speaker 2: is this idea that we have these brains that can 485 00:25:26,116 --> 00:25:29,356 Speaker 2: imagine different futures. A lot of times when we imagine 486 00:25:29,356 --> 00:25:31,996 Speaker 2: the climate future, we imagine the doom and gloom version 487 00:25:32,036 --> 00:25:33,556 Speaker 2: of it. Right, you know, the seas are going to rise, 488 00:25:33,596 --> 00:25:35,396 Speaker 2: and Lower Manhattan is going to be flooded, and all 489 00:25:35,396 --> 00:25:37,956 Speaker 2: these terrible things are going to happen, but talk about 490 00:25:37,996 --> 00:25:41,116 Speaker 2: the possibility of imagining positive futures and what that might 491 00:25:41,156 --> 00:25:44,596 Speaker 2: do to kind of help our actions on climate change. 492 00:25:44,916 --> 00:25:47,996 Speaker 3: Well, human beings respond to carrots and they respond to sticks, 493 00:25:47,996 --> 00:25:50,396 Speaker 3: and we've known for a very long time that the 494 00:25:50,436 --> 00:25:54,236 Speaker 3: response to sticks is more immediate and stronger, but it's 495 00:25:54,276 --> 00:25:57,236 Speaker 3: not very effective if people don't know what to do 496 00:25:57,596 --> 00:26:00,716 Speaker 3: to avoid getting hit with the stick. There's very old 497 00:26:00,716 --> 00:26:03,796 Speaker 3: work in social psychology by a Yale professor in fact 498 00:26:03,876 --> 00:26:07,516 Speaker 3: named irv Janis, who showed that fear messages can be 499 00:26:07,556 --> 00:26:12,076 Speaker 3: effective if accompanied by a clear indicator of what you 500 00:26:12,196 --> 00:26:15,036 Speaker 3: do to avoid being afraid. But if you just tell 501 00:26:15,116 --> 00:26:18,236 Speaker 3: people it's all bad and it's getting worse, and you 502 00:26:18,276 --> 00:26:20,796 Speaker 3: can't tell them exactly what they should do to make 503 00:26:20,836 --> 00:26:24,316 Speaker 3: it better, they basically tune out. So carrots are very 504 00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:27,236 Speaker 3: effective in this regard, and we do need carrots and 505 00:26:27,276 --> 00:26:29,996 Speaker 3: we have them, but they're not carrots, like, let's look 506 00:26:29,996 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 3: on the bright side of climate change. You'll be able 507 00:26:32,316 --> 00:26:35,076 Speaker 3: to sail in Vermont. Won't that be wonderful? No? No, the 508 00:26:35,116 --> 00:26:38,636 Speaker 3: messages I think are actually economic, and there are messages 509 00:26:38,716 --> 00:26:41,556 Speaker 3: that are now coming through loud and clear that we're 510 00:26:41,636 --> 00:26:44,636 Speaker 3: not doing these things necessarily to solve a problem. We're 511 00:26:44,636 --> 00:26:47,116 Speaker 3: doing it because it's going to create jobs. It's going 512 00:26:47,156 --> 00:26:50,196 Speaker 3: to create a vibrant new economy. Look at you know 513 00:26:50,276 --> 00:26:52,516 Speaker 3: what we're going to be able to do with electric cars. 514 00:26:52,916 --> 00:26:55,956 Speaker 3: I think that's actually a very effective way to get 515 00:26:55,956 --> 00:26:58,836 Speaker 3: people to do the right thing, by showing them how 516 00:26:58,876 --> 00:27:02,756 Speaker 3: attractive the opportunities are in this new world we're trying 517 00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:05,876 Speaker 3: to create, rather than just scaring them about how bad 518 00:27:06,156 --> 00:27:07,356 Speaker 3: it is if they don't do it. 519 00:27:07,396 --> 00:27:08,916 Speaker 2: When we think about the kinds of actions we need 520 00:27:08,916 --> 00:27:10,996 Speaker 2: to take to fix climate change, I think this is 521 00:27:11,036 --> 00:27:13,596 Speaker 2: another spot where our biases mess us up, because when 522 00:27:13,636 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 2: I try to simulate how I'll feel, you know, making 523 00:27:16,596 --> 00:27:19,076 Speaker 2: the sorts of sacrifices that might be required to kind 524 00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 2: of fix climate I can sometimes think that those things 525 00:27:22,116 --> 00:27:23,836 Speaker 2: are going to hurt me much more than they could. 526 00:27:24,116 --> 00:27:26,076 Speaker 2: Right I simulate I don't have an EV right now, 527 00:27:26,316 --> 00:27:29,356 Speaker 2: very embarrassing you from this or social comparison thing. But 528 00:27:29,396 --> 00:27:31,516 Speaker 2: when I simulate getting an EV, I'm like, oh, that's 529 00:27:31,556 --> 00:27:32,996 Speaker 2: going to be a pain to figure out where I'm 530 00:27:32,996 --> 00:27:34,876 Speaker 2: going to plug it in, or kind of mapping out 531 00:27:34,916 --> 00:27:37,316 Speaker 2: my drive so I can find a charger, But in practice, 532 00:27:37,356 --> 00:27:39,276 Speaker 2: when I actually do that, it might not be as 533 00:27:39,356 --> 00:27:41,796 Speaker 2: bad as we think. This gets back to another bias 534 00:27:41,796 --> 00:27:43,756 Speaker 2: that I know you've studied in detail, this bias of 535 00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:47,396 Speaker 2: affective forecasting. You know, explain what effective forecasting is and 536 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:49,836 Speaker 2: why changing our behavior to be a little bit more 537 00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:51,836 Speaker 2: sustainable might not be as bad as we think. 538 00:27:51,916 --> 00:27:54,756 Speaker 3: Well. Affect to forecasting is just a mouthful of words 539 00:27:54,796 --> 00:27:57,156 Speaker 3: that means looking into the future and figuring out what 540 00:27:57,236 --> 00:27:59,716 Speaker 3: will make you happy, If it'll make you happy, how 541 00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:02,996 Speaker 3: long that happiness will last. This is a prediction about 542 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:05,956 Speaker 3: what will be good and what will be bad for you. 543 00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:08,476 Speaker 3: And you're right that people make errors when they try 544 00:28:08,516 --> 00:28:11,516 Speaker 3: to do that kind of work. And you're imagining that 545 00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:14,276 Speaker 3: getting an EV will be very difficult at plugging, and 546 00:28:14,316 --> 00:28:17,356 Speaker 3: it will be hard, And you're probably right about some 547 00:28:17,436 --> 00:28:20,196 Speaker 3: of those things, but you're also failing to imagine a 548 00:28:20,236 --> 00:28:22,676 Speaker 3: number of things. You're failing to imagine how good you're 549 00:28:22,676 --> 00:28:24,556 Speaker 3: going to feel every time you get in it, drive 550 00:28:24,596 --> 00:28:27,076 Speaker 3: down the street, and show all those other drivers that 551 00:28:27,316 --> 00:28:29,756 Speaker 3: you mean business when it comes to climate change, on 552 00:28:29,836 --> 00:28:32,276 Speaker 3: and on and on. You'll imagine some of the things 553 00:28:32,316 --> 00:28:35,116 Speaker 3: about this, but you'll fail to imagine others. So your 554 00:28:35,116 --> 00:28:38,156 Speaker 3: imagination turns out not to be a great guide as 555 00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:40,396 Speaker 3: to how good you will feel? Well, what should you 556 00:28:40,436 --> 00:28:44,196 Speaker 3: do instead if your imagination is going to not serve 557 00:28:44,236 --> 00:28:46,756 Speaker 3: you well. Well, one easy way to find out how 558 00:28:46,756 --> 00:28:48,636 Speaker 3: you'll feel if you buy an EV is to see 559 00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:52,356 Speaker 3: how people who have already done it actually do feel. 560 00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:55,596 Speaker 3: And what you'll find is that Tesla owners are among 561 00:28:55,596 --> 00:28:58,636 Speaker 3: the most satisfied humans on earth. They love their cars 562 00:28:58,676 --> 00:29:01,156 Speaker 3: and they love having bought them. Is there any reason 563 00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:03,156 Speaker 3: you don't think you would join their ranks? 564 00:29:03,276 --> 00:29:03,716 Speaker 1: It's funny. 565 00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:06,036 Speaker 2: I just had a conversation at a dinner party yesterday 566 00:29:06,076 --> 00:29:08,876 Speaker 2: with an EV owner who is evangelical about their EV, 567 00:29:08,916 --> 00:29:10,716 Speaker 2: and they're like, oh my gosh, it's so easy and 568 00:29:10,756 --> 00:29:12,996 Speaker 2: it's so fun and it's so much faster than you think. 569 00:29:13,316 --> 00:29:16,036 Speaker 2: And it really was one of these cases of getting testimony. 570 00:29:16,116 --> 00:29:18,436 Speaker 2: That person's testimony is an owner of an EV is 571 00:29:18,476 --> 00:29:20,556 Speaker 2: so much better than my simulation is ever going to 572 00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:21,436 Speaker 2: be about what it's like. 573 00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:24,316 Speaker 3: There's no doubt it's better in helping you make an 574 00:29:24,316 --> 00:29:27,436 Speaker 3: accurate forecast. But we also know people don't trust it 575 00:29:27,476 --> 00:29:31,556 Speaker 3: as much. People place undue stock in their own imaginations, 576 00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:36,316 Speaker 3: and they don't properly value the experiences of others because 577 00:29:36,356 --> 00:29:39,596 Speaker 3: they say, yeah, but that's Fred. I'm not Fred. Fred 578 00:29:39,676 --> 00:29:42,516 Speaker 3: is different than I am. Actually, in most ways, Fred 579 00:29:42,556 --> 00:29:45,436 Speaker 3: isn't different than you are. Human beings are much more 580 00:29:45,756 --> 00:29:48,636 Speaker 3: like than they expect. They have an illusion of uniqueness 581 00:29:48,676 --> 00:29:51,236 Speaker 3: that makes them think that there's no way anybody else 582 00:29:51,276 --> 00:29:54,196 Speaker 3: can tell me about my future. Yes. Actually, if everybody 583 00:29:54,196 --> 00:29:57,036 Speaker 3: who's a lawyer is miserable, you're almost surely going to 584 00:29:57,036 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 3: be a miserable lawyer too. 585 00:29:58,316 --> 00:29:59,596 Speaker 2: So the last thing we can do to try to 586 00:29:59,636 --> 00:30:02,756 Speaker 2: promote better climate behavior is to recognize what helps us 587 00:30:02,796 --> 00:30:05,276 Speaker 2: get that sort of future planning going a little bit, 588 00:30:05,596 --> 00:30:08,156 Speaker 2: because as you've mentioned, we can simulate the future, but 589 00:30:08,196 --> 00:30:10,916 Speaker 2: it's kind of hard, and save for retirement, but it's hard. 590 00:30:11,356 --> 00:30:13,276 Speaker 1: Talk about the things that help us get our. 591 00:30:13,196 --> 00:30:15,476 Speaker 2: Future planning going, and how we might be able to 592 00:30:15,516 --> 00:30:18,236 Speaker 2: harness those same kinds of things to help with climate change. 593 00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:20,556 Speaker 3: You know, I think there are two paths that we 594 00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:23,756 Speaker 3: can take. One is the path that most psychologists like 595 00:30:23,796 --> 00:30:26,476 Speaker 3: you and me are tempted to take, which to think 596 00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:30,076 Speaker 3: about the things we could do to get every day 597 00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:34,236 Speaker 3: people to take different actions in their everyday lives. But 598 00:30:34,276 --> 00:30:37,156 Speaker 3: the fact is that all of that is not going 599 00:30:37,196 --> 00:30:40,156 Speaker 3: to add up to a lot, and most people aren't 600 00:30:40,156 --> 00:30:41,796 Speaker 3: going to do it. And I think it was Al 601 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:44,476 Speaker 3: Gore who said, if you really care about the climate, 602 00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:48,316 Speaker 3: instead of changing your light bulbs or worrying about carbon offsets, 603 00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:50,796 Speaker 3: you should vote. I mean, if you really want to 604 00:30:50,836 --> 00:30:54,196 Speaker 3: make change, you make change to the system in which 605 00:30:54,236 --> 00:30:58,796 Speaker 3: people function, rather than asking individuals to please defy their 606 00:30:58,836 --> 00:31:02,996 Speaker 3: own nature. A little bit differently, retirement savings is a 607 00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:06,996 Speaker 3: great example. If we were to just cajole people, convince them, 608 00:31:07,156 --> 00:31:11,316 Speaker 3: tempt them, amuse them into saving for retirement, no one 609 00:31:11,316 --> 00:31:14,076 Speaker 3: in America would be doing it right, just like they 610 00:31:14,076 --> 00:31:16,916 Speaker 3: don't floss. We wouldn't do those things. But we've managed 611 00:31:16,956 --> 00:31:20,636 Speaker 3: to institutionalize retirement savings. So now your employer says to you, 612 00:31:21,076 --> 00:31:23,836 Speaker 3: I will be withholding some of your salary. I will 613 00:31:23,876 --> 00:31:26,556 Speaker 3: be putting it away for you for retirement because I 614 00:31:26,676 --> 00:31:29,156 Speaker 3: know you are just too flawed to do it on 615 00:31:29,196 --> 00:31:31,956 Speaker 3: your own. And as a result, a lot of Americans 616 00:31:31,956 --> 00:31:35,236 Speaker 3: now have retirement savings. One of your colleagues, Kelly Brownell, 617 00:31:35,356 --> 00:31:37,356 Speaker 3: once told me, he said, you know, if you want 618 00:31:37,396 --> 00:31:39,196 Speaker 3: to get people to eat better. You can try a 619 00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:41,676 Speaker 3: million different things, almost none of them work. But the 620 00:31:41,716 --> 00:31:43,596 Speaker 3: best thing you can do is make sure there's a 621 00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:46,276 Speaker 3: grocery store that has produced within one mile of their home. 622 00:31:46,516 --> 00:31:49,396 Speaker 3: I think the same thing is true for climate change. 623 00:31:49,716 --> 00:31:52,156 Speaker 3: We have to stop saying to people it's on you 624 00:31:52,236 --> 00:31:54,876 Speaker 3: to change your light bulb. That's going to fix the problem. No, 625 00:31:55,516 --> 00:31:57,876 Speaker 3: we have to stop using fossil fuels. There are a 626 00:31:57,876 --> 00:32:01,356 Speaker 3: lot of people who are deeply economically invested in making 627 00:32:01,396 --> 00:32:04,676 Speaker 3: sure we keep using fossil fuels. You have to vote 628 00:32:04,756 --> 00:32:08,276 Speaker 3: for a government that will tell them no. Until we 629 00:32:08,356 --> 00:32:11,876 Speaker 3: do that, everything else is just working around the margins. 630 00:32:11,996 --> 00:32:13,916 Speaker 3: So I'm sorry to say as a psychologist that I 631 00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:17,036 Speaker 3: think there's a lot less psychology to fixing this problem 632 00:32:17,316 --> 00:32:19,316 Speaker 3: than there is just politics. 633 00:32:19,476 --> 00:32:22,036 Speaker 2: But I think it actually comes from understanding our psychology. 634 00:32:22,036 --> 00:32:23,916 Speaker 2: There's things we can do with our own psychology that 635 00:32:23,996 --> 00:32:26,916 Speaker 2: might not require as much government intervention. Like you know, 636 00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:29,356 Speaker 2: somebody burns a flag. We don't need a politician to 637 00:32:29,436 --> 00:32:32,076 Speaker 2: tell us like, hey, get upset about that. But with 638 00:32:32,116 --> 00:32:34,916 Speaker 2: these things that don't activate our evolutionary biases, we do 639 00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:37,956 Speaker 2: need the system, and that is coming from psychology that's 640 00:32:38,036 --> 00:32:40,476 Speaker 2: understanding our psychology to know when we need help and 641 00:32:40,516 --> 00:32:41,076 Speaker 2: when we don't. 642 00:32:41,356 --> 00:32:43,596 Speaker 3: Well, I like the fact that you have given us 643 00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:46,316 Speaker 3: credit for something, even if we don't deserve it. I'll 644 00:32:46,356 --> 00:32:48,236 Speaker 3: take it. You're right, it's all psychology. 645 00:32:49,156 --> 00:32:49,796 Speaker 1: We'll take it. 646 00:32:50,356 --> 00:32:53,556 Speaker 3: With that said, I don't want to seem like I'm 647 00:32:53,596 --> 00:32:59,556 Speaker 3: saying there's no room for changing the behavior of individuals 648 00:32:59,596 --> 00:33:02,396 Speaker 3: so that they contribute less to the problem and more 649 00:33:02,436 --> 00:33:06,676 Speaker 3: to the solution. There is. I think there's a large role, 650 00:33:06,876 --> 00:33:10,556 Speaker 3: maybe even the largest role is for government to change 651 00:33:10,596 --> 00:33:14,396 Speaker 3: the behavior of nations. But with that said, I'm all 652 00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:18,236 Speaker 3: for anything that gets human beings to do what is 653 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:21,436 Speaker 3: better for the climate, and I think psychologists are there 654 00:33:21,476 --> 00:33:24,116 Speaker 3: to help you with a whole host of tricks that 655 00:33:24,236 --> 00:33:27,156 Speaker 3: can get at least some percentage of individuals to do 656 00:33:27,276 --> 00:33:29,476 Speaker 3: better in their everyday lives. I mean, here's the good 657 00:33:29,516 --> 00:33:34,356 Speaker 3: news about climate change. There aren't many people who are going, no, 658 00:33:34,716 --> 00:33:36,996 Speaker 3: I don't want to fix this problem. I really think 659 00:33:37,036 --> 00:33:39,716 Speaker 3: it's great. I'm so glad there are more wildfires in 660 00:33:39,756 --> 00:33:43,476 Speaker 3: California and that Arizonas won't have water to drink. Right, 661 00:33:43,556 --> 00:33:46,556 Speaker 3: we're kind of all almost all of us, at least 662 00:33:46,636 --> 00:33:49,116 Speaker 3: almost all of us are on the same side of 663 00:33:49,156 --> 00:33:52,396 Speaker 3: this problem, and we're only talking about how do we 664 00:33:52,476 --> 00:33:54,476 Speaker 3: solve it. If you think of the most of the 665 00:33:54,516 --> 00:33:58,436 Speaker 3: problems that face us, we're arguing about whether there is 666 00:33:58,476 --> 00:34:01,516 Speaker 3: a problem and what the problem is. We all agree 667 00:34:01,556 --> 00:34:03,996 Speaker 3: about all of this now, and we just have to 668 00:34:03,996 --> 00:34:05,796 Speaker 3: get on board with what we're going to do to 669 00:34:05,876 --> 00:34:08,236 Speaker 3: solve it. I think that gives us at least a 670 00:34:08,276 --> 00:34:09,036 Speaker 3: good head start. 671 00:34:09,876 --> 00:34:12,076 Speaker 2: That was a second chance to hear my conversation with 672 00:34:12,156 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 2: Dan Gilbert this Earth Month. I hope you have time 673 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:17,476 Speaker 2: to think about the small ways you can contribute to 674 00:34:17,516 --> 00:34:20,716 Speaker 2: taking on the big problems facing our planet. Every little 675 00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:23,796 Speaker 2: step leads us in the right direction. We'll be back 676 00:34:23,836 --> 00:34:27,436 Speaker 2: for a special show on March twentieth, celebrating World Happiness Day. 677 00:34:27,916 --> 00:34:31,076 Speaker 2: I've even been given early access to the World Happiness Report, 678 00:34:31,356 --> 00:34:33,476 Speaker 2: so I'll be announcing which country has been declared the 679 00:34:33,516 --> 00:34:35,916 Speaker 2: happiest on Earth, and I'll tell you about a really 680 00:34:35,956 --> 00:34:38,156 Speaker 2: simple change you can make to your life that will 681 00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:40,996 Speaker 2: make you, your family, and your friends so much happier. 682 00:34:41,676 --> 00:34:44,156 Speaker 2: All that next time on the Happiness Lab with me, 683 00:34:44,396 --> 00:34:48,036 Speaker 2: Doctor Laurie Santos