Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations
Speaker 1: about suicide that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners.
Speaker 1: If you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward
Speaker 1: to the end of this episode to find out where
Speaker 1: help is available. As Byron Case's legal team is working
Speaker 1: to chip away at what got their client convicted back
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, they consider finding the cleaner
Speaker 1: version of the June fifth tacited mission tape a strong start.
Speaker 2: We've got the tape, which is a material mistake of
Speaker 2: fact or fraud.
Speaker 1: But what else do they have?
Speaker 2: We have all this undisclosed evidence showing that Anastasia went
Speaker 2: home and changed clothes.
Speaker 1: Did Anastasia go home the night she was killed?
Speaker 3: I think she got a ride or she walked home,
Speaker 3: but I think she went home.
Speaker 1: I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer. Episode nine
Speaker 1: more questions than answers before we talk about whether or
Speaker 1: not Anastasia possibly went home on the night of October
Speaker 1: twenty second, nineteen ninety seven. There's someone who might be
Speaker 1: able to shed some light on what happened when Byron
Speaker 1: returned home that night. Knock knock, Hi, how are you
Speaker 1: is it okay to come next? Okay? Thank you, Napoleon Perez.
Speaker 1: He was dating Byron's mom, Evelyn Case and living with
Speaker 1: them back in nineteen ninety seven. Hikay cat such a
Speaker 1: lovely home. Napoleon's ever spoken before. Investigators never interviewed him
Speaker 1: during the almost three years the case was open and unsolved. Today,
Speaker 1: more than twenty seven years after the fact, Napoleon has
Speaker 1: agreed to talk with me at his home in Kansas City.
Speaker 1: I ask, for recording purposes, if we can go to
Speaker 1: the quietest room in the house. Napoleon suggests a bedroom
Speaker 1: a little atypical, but Napoleon seems harmless, and his wife
Speaker 1: is watching TV not far away in the living room.
Speaker 1: Napoleon is originally from Ecuador. In the mid nineties, he
Speaker 1: was living in Chicago. He actually met Evelyn while traveling
Speaker 1: in Europe and they hit it off right away. Napoleon
Speaker 1: says he moved to Kansas City around nineteen ninety six
Speaker 1: ninety seven. He and Evelyn married around two thousand and
Speaker 1: one two thousand and two, and they divorced some years later.
Speaker 1: I start off by asking Napoleon about his first impression
Speaker 1: of Byron.
Speaker 4: He was quiet, He was organized. That was I was
Speaker 4: impressed here was everything was clean or unorganized. We don't
Speaker 4: really talk too much because my English, they say, now
Speaker 4: it's that great. But then I.
Speaker 1: Then move on to asking what Napoleon remembers from the
Speaker 1: night Anastasia was killed. So on October twenty second, nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety seven, and I realized it's decades ago now, But
Speaker 1: you know, Byron goes out with Justin, Anastasia and Kelly
Speaker 1: and comes home and Evelyn said that you two were
Speaker 1: sitting on the sofa watching a movie when he came
Speaker 1: home that night. Do you remember him coming home that night?
Speaker 4: Yeah? He usually came say we even now, or go
Speaker 4: straight to his room. He was in the computer. The
Speaker 4: only thing I was remember so clear because I was
Speaker 4: kind of mild because I usually was janitors or sleeping late.
Speaker 4: He came early and Justin was calling him so many times,
Speaker 4: says why don't answer the phone. He said, well, he
Speaker 4: was sleeping. I talked to tomorrow and then the next
Speaker 4: day he said, oh, just on his best friend. And
Speaker 4: then I was feel bad because I was on the
Speaker 4: English to answer the phone. Why don't answer the phone,
Speaker 4: because he said I was tired. I don't want to
Speaker 4: talk to him. Oh and nobody. I said, I talk
Speaker 4: to tomorrow, and that was the last time because and
Speaker 4: then I feel bad because.
Speaker 1: Napoleon says, back then he was working as a janitor,
Speaker 1: mostly the night shift, and the reason he remembers this
Speaker 1: evening in particular is really because he remembers the next morning.
Speaker 1: He remembers Justin calling early, getting annoyed that Byron didn't
Speaker 1: want to answer the phone, then feeling awful after learning
Speaker 1: Justin had taken his own life. I'm surprised to hear
Speaker 1: Justin called multiple times that morning. It's the first time
Speaker 1: I'm hearing this, knowing Byron usually slept late. Why would
Speaker 1: Justin need to talk to Byron so desperately? Although maybe
Speaker 1: Justin called once and the phone just rang and rang
Speaker 1: and rang before Evelyn answered it. I email Evelyn about this,
Speaker 1: and she says she remembers the phone rang only once.
Speaker 1: She was at her desk at the time, so she
Speaker 1: picked it up right away. Next, I asked Napoleon what
Speaker 1: he remembers about Byron's demeanor when he got home the
Speaker 1: night of the twenty seconds. Did he seem weird or
Speaker 1: off or no?
Speaker 4: I must see you've calmed. I don't really see anything.
Speaker 1: That night, he like, I think, according to Evelyn, like
Speaker 1: went through to the kitchen and then maybe just went
Speaker 1: to his bedroom and was on the computer. Did you
Speaker 1: hear him on the computer? You knew he was on
Speaker 1: the computer?
Speaker 4: He well, I mean were watching TV, but he was
Speaker 4: always in the computer, he was.
Speaker 1: Is there any possibility that Byron went back out that
Speaker 1: night after you and Evelyn went to bed.
Speaker 4: I don't remember that. I don't know. I usually got
Speaker 4: the time go to better and go better and then
Speaker 4: I don't know if he left or not.
Speaker 1: Would you have heard him?
Speaker 4: If I think so, it opened the or that door
Speaker 4: is kind of squeeze, but yeah, that's quiet.
Speaker 1: It was a squeaky door. Yes. Do you remember seeing
Speaker 1: Byron after he found out that Anastasia had been killed?
Speaker 1: Did he say anything? How did he act?
Speaker 4: He was sad?
Speaker 1: He was sad. Did Evelyn or Byron seem concerned that
Speaker 1: he was talking with police?
Speaker 4: No? Not at all.
Speaker 1: Did investigators ever interview you?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 1: And you, I guess you didn't volunteer to go to
Speaker 1: police and say.
Speaker 4: At the same time and never asked me, well, I
Speaker 4: say we because Byron evident and myself, which everything is okay,
Speaker 4: so we not be nothing. I will worry about it.
Speaker 1: But then after he was arrested, did you think maybe
Speaker 1: I should go to the police and tell him I
Speaker 1: saw on that night at.
Speaker 4: The same time, what am I supported to say? Nobody
Speaker 4: asking me, so I said, hey, I was there even
Speaker 4: now and I could say I surprised recording.
Speaker 1: And I said, you're surprised by Michael.
Speaker 4: Yes, I remember clear everything happened with details. But then
Speaker 4: but now it's I don't remember. I was bothering in
Speaker 4: that time. That's all a.
Speaker 1: Mom wants to believe the very best of their son.
Speaker 1: Do you think Evelyn has like a blind spot when
Speaker 1: it no.
Speaker 4: That she is you know, we was a couple for
Speaker 4: so many years that she's anguish. There's a matter who
Speaker 4: is the person?
Speaker 1: If Byron committed this crime, she would not have any problems.
Speaker 4: No, I would even.
Speaker 1: Know like going to police and saying, like, I know
Speaker 1: my son.
Speaker 4: Even though she was to me because I was that
Speaker 4: said no, no, I believe No. He was so so
Speaker 4: nice with my cats. He was there with your cats,
Speaker 4: but they were so friendly, the animals. I don't think
Speaker 4: he is mean or anything. No, I believe. If I'll
Speaker 4: be honest, I don't think he did it. They crime
Speaker 4: that night.
Speaker 1: We next talk about the June fifth. We should shouldn't
Speaker 1: talk about this call. Napoleon says. That week Kelly was
Speaker 1: calling the house a lot.
Speaker 4: Yes, oh yeah, that week she was crazy calling. She
Speaker 4: was calling several days, two four days, and that we
Speaker 4: and sometimes I'm here in the morning or the evening.
Speaker 4: Some bider sleep, sometimes don't answer the phone or photo
Speaker 4: volume and then said hello, it's Byron there says no,
Speaker 4: it's not here. Sometimes yeah, he is here. There's Biron.
Speaker 4: Somebody asked for Biro. Hey, Birom, somebody call you.
Speaker 1: On June fifth, two thousand and one, around eleven thirty pm,
Speaker 1: Byron finally answered Kelly. During that recorded call, Byron was
Speaker 1: Byron living here?
Speaker 4: Was he living here?
Speaker 1: He was here?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was adjusted here this house here, Yes, who's
Speaker 4: a disapartment? This room, this.
Speaker 1: Room where we're recording your interview right now. This is
Speaker 1: a room where he took the call from Kelly that night.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So after that call, did he have any feelings like,
Speaker 1: oh shit, I just you know, might have gotten myself
Speaker 1: in trouble.
Speaker 4: Or not at all until he was more because he
Speaker 4: was sick. But no, he was normal to me. And
Speaker 4: then he one day he was arrested. I was surprised, why,
Speaker 4: how when did.
Speaker 1: You ever ask Byron after he was arrested did you
Speaker 1: do this?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 4: I never really ask here. I don't need to ask him.
Speaker 4: I believe.
Speaker 1: Was he arrested here?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And this house this is where swat came through.
Speaker 4: That is why evident don't want to be here. She
Speaker 4: had about memories and then the two three days then
Speaker 4: and the court that was the town we know. That
Speaker 4: was the recording. That was the police give it to
Speaker 4: and that was to me, in my opinion, that was
Speaker 4: the one, says biskuilty.
Speaker 1: You think the tape is what did him ins Yes.
Speaker 1: I asked Napoleon how Byron's conviction and incarceration affected Evelyn.
Speaker 4: She was, yeah, she was really sad. Trying to support her,
Speaker 4: but yeah, she was a good person, good woman, wife,
Speaker 4: and she had the son.
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 4: I don't know how I say it, but she was
Speaker 4: crying every day. I'm trying to but nothing we can do.
Speaker 1: I see you getting emotional. It took a toll on her,
Speaker 1: on you on the relationship.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, because she now was the same. That was
Speaker 4: not the same. And like I said, I believed in Bio.
Speaker 4: I'll never believe anybody. He can't kill anybody.
Speaker 1: He's not capable of killing someone.
Speaker 4: That's my belief. I believe it can to me.
Speaker 1: Obviously, Evelyn has been hurting because her only son is
Speaker 1: in prison for life and she believes he's innocent. I
Speaker 1: can only imagine the constant pain and sadness Anastasia's family
Speaker 1: feels with the loss they've suffered. So Napoleon is Byron's alibi,
Speaker 1: but only if the murder happened after Byron got home.
Speaker 1: Although Napoleon can't say for sure that Byron didn't go
Speaker 1: back out that night, Kelly says the murder happened before
Speaker 1: Byron got home. If that's what in fact happened, that
Speaker 1: makes Napoleon as an alibi a moot point. Right now,
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Anastasia and whether or not she went home.
Speaker 1: You've heard it dozens of times already. Byron's lawyers believe
Speaker 1: Anastasia got out of Justin's car at t Truman Roade
Speaker 1: and the I four thirty five. Don Rand at the
Speaker 1: Amico station said he saw her there and there was
Speaker 1: also the father daughter at the Phillip sixty sixth station
Speaker 1: who allegedly saw someone they thought might be Anastasia use
Speaker 1: the payphone. If all of that is true, then what
Speaker 1: happened next? Did Anastasia ever make it home that night?
Speaker 1: It's an important question because her dad, Bob Whitbolesfugen, seemed
Speaker 1: to think she did, and I believe it first comes
Speaker 1: up on November twenty one, nineteen ninety seven, during a
Speaker 1: conversation between Bob and Sergeant Gary Kilgore. Kilgore writes in
Speaker 1: his report, quote mister Whitble's Fugen believes Anastasia returned to
Speaker 1: his house after Justin picked her up. Mister Whitbles Vugen
Speaker 1: believes that Anastasia returned to the house to change clothes
Speaker 1: for the evening, and she must have been there between
Speaker 1: nineteen hundred and nineteen thirty. That's military time for seven
Speaker 1: and seven thirty. Kill Gore continues, quote, mister whipples Fugen
Speaker 1: asked if we have been able to confirm this, and
Speaker 1: I told him I had no indication from anyone that
Speaker 1: they had went back to her house that evening. Bob
Speaker 1: then writes emails to Sergeant Kilgore about this. The first
Speaker 1: one is dated December thirtieth, nineteen ninety seven, so that's
Speaker 1: a little more than two months after Anastasia's death. Bob
Speaker 1: starts off by thanking Sergeant Kilgore for interviewing dairy queen
Speaker 1: worker Don Wright and Mount Washington Cemetery caretaker Glenn Calliver.
Speaker 1: He continues with quote, the time is just before eight pm,
Speaker 1: after dark. Certainly, the fact that the clothing description differs
Speaker 1: from the five thirty pm sightings indicates that she must
Speaker 1: have returned to our house to change clothes, but with whom.
Speaker 1: So that's Bob's first email about Anastasia possibly going home.
Speaker 1: Bob writes another email a few days later, on January
Speaker 1: Tewodeen ninety eight, subject line blue jeans. You heard about
Speaker 1: this email in episode three Bob Wright's quote, I don't
Speaker 1: remember if I ever told you. A couple of days
Speaker 1: after her death, I opened the washing machine and inside
Speaker 1: was a single pair of blue jeans. It was nothing unusual,
Speaker 1: because I frequently do laundry and often found that the
Speaker 1: girls had unfinished stuff in the wash. At the time,
Speaker 1: it only served to remind me that she was gone
Speaker 1: and life goes on. Then, after my talk with Glenn Cliver.
Speaker 1: It served as an important fact that she had returned
Speaker 1: to the house and in fact had time and thought
Speaker 1: to put it in the wash. Also in the wash
Speaker 1: basin in the basement, next to the washing machine was
Speaker 1: a pair of her underwear soaking. Here's one of Byron's attorneys,
Speaker 1: Nicole Gordon, So.
Speaker 3: We know from what Don Wright told us that Don
Speaker 3: said Anastatia was wearing socks, Birkenstock like style sandals, and
Speaker 3: baggy blue jeans. Those aren't the clothes she was found in.
Speaker 1: Anastasia was found in black jeans, black Doc Martin's shoes,
Speaker 1: a gray shirt, and a tan corduroy jacket. So if
Speaker 1: Bob found Anastasia's blue jeans and underwear clothes that seemed
Speaker 1: to match what dairy Queen worker Don Wright said she
Speaker 1: was wearing, that did Anastasia somehow go home and change?
Speaker 1: I do wonder how well did Bob know Anastasia's clothes
Speaker 1: and undergarments? How do we know the jeans and underwear
Speaker 1: didn't belong to Anastasia's sister Francesca. It needs to be
Speaker 1: said that Francesca has never wavered on what Anastasia was
Speaker 1: wearing when she left the house for Mount Washington Cemetery
Speaker 1: the afternoon of October twenty second, which was black jeans,
Speaker 1: her black Doc Martin's shoes, and a tan coat, which
Speaker 1: are the same clothes Anastasia was found in at Lincoln Cemetery.
Speaker 1: We'll talk more about this in just a bit. Bob
Speaker 1: then sends a third email to Sergeant Kilgore. This one's
Speaker 1: dated January eleventh, nineteen ninety eight, and it comes with
Speaker 1: a photo. We also mentioned this email in episode three,
Speaker 1: subject line purse. Bob writes, quote, is this possibly the
Speaker 1: purse that Don w said that Anastasia reportedly had at
Speaker 1: the DQ? She said it wasn't over the shoulder one
Speaker 1: just like this. Here's Nicole again.
Speaker 3: Don also said that Anastata had a purse, which is
Speaker 3: interesting because it was a unique purse. The purse had
Speaker 3: a long strap and instead of being a square, it
Speaker 3: was a rectangle purse, so it was short but wide.
Speaker 1: Don Wright describes the purse to Sergeant Kilgore as quote
Speaker 1: brown in color zipper top. The purse was nine to
Speaker 1: ten inches long and eight two nine inches in height.
Speaker 1: We've posted the photo of the purse on the Real
Speaker 1: Killer podcast on Instagram. Does it look to you like
Speaker 1: Anastasia's purse matches? Dawn writees description of what she said
Speaker 1: Anastasia was carrying that night. Now we're talking about the purse.
Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that Bob brings up Anastasia's billfold
Speaker 1: before any of this. He mentions her bill fold to
Speaker 1: Sergeant Ron Kellogg. On October twenty third, nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 1: the day Anastasia was found in Lincoln Cemetery, Bob says, quote,
Speaker 1: she left her billfold here and driver's license and credit card.
Speaker 1: By the way, a bill fold is a thinner wallet.
Speaker 1: I wonder could the billfold be the same thing as
Speaker 1: the purse. Then five days later, on October twenty eighth,
Speaker 1: in Bob's recorded interview with Sergeant Kilgore, the bill fold
Speaker 1: comes up again.
Speaker 4: Say when you're.
Speaker 6: Winning your hat and in a conversation about a station, no.
Speaker 4: Francesca.
Speaker 6: I looked in the living room and she was already
Speaker 6: sitting at the computer terminal. I guess the kitchen light
Speaker 6: was on, and the light to the stairway was on
Speaker 6: up the stairs, and so I looked up in that direction,
Speaker 6: and I think I saw my daughter's builhole lying on
Speaker 6: the stairway rail there, and I remember picking it up
Speaker 6: and running up the room, thinking, oh goodness, she's home.
Speaker 6: And when I got up there, I looked around her room.
Speaker 6: She wasn't there. Back down the hallway, didn't seem like
Speaker 6: any other lights in the house were on. I said, look,
Speaker 6: she's not home. Kind of disappointed. I was excited that
Speaker 6: she was home and safe after the big ordeal that
Speaker 6: I've been feeling, and.
Speaker 4: She's nowhere to be found. I went down.
Speaker 6: And I think I asked, Francesca, is Anastasia here?
Speaker 8: I don't think so.
Speaker 4: I just got home my style.
Speaker 8: If I don't know.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: With all of this, could don Wright have been mistaken
Speaker 1: in her description of what Anastasia was wearing, including the
Speaker 1: purse she says Anastasia was carrying. Unfortunately, Kilgore never collected
Speaker 1: the genes or purse slash billfold to show don Wright.
Speaker 1: That might have cleared up some of this confusion. But
Speaker 1: if don Wright was correct about Anastasia's clothes and purse
Speaker 1: that night, might there be more to the story. Anastasia's father,
Speaker 1: Bob Whitbolsfuchen, believed that on the night of October twenty second,
Speaker 1: his daughter came home and changed her clothes. He said
Speaker 1: he found her blue jeans in the washing machine and
Speaker 1: a pair of her underwear. Soaking in a sink doesn't
Speaker 1: make it fact because, as we know, Bob said a
Speaker 1: lot of things that turned out to not be true.
Speaker 1: But is there more evidence that says Anastasia did make
Speaker 1: it home. Here's Byron's attorney, Nicole Gordon.
Speaker 3: Anastasia started her period while she was out. We know
Speaker 3: that because of what Don Wright told Sergeant Kilgore that
Speaker 3: she needed a tampon and she didn't have one. We
Speaker 3: know she used the tampon because she used the Dairy
Speaker 3: Queen restroom was a private restroom. It wasn't open for public,
Speaker 3: and when the manager or owner of Dairy Queen was
Speaker 3: the owner used the bathroom after Anastasia. He sees the
Speaker 3: tampon wrapper in the trash, and Anasta hadn't flushed the toilet,
Speaker 3: so there was blood in the toilet as well, so
Speaker 3: we know.
Speaker 1: Here's Byron's investigator, Quinn O'Brien.
Speaker 9: So we know that Anastasia is using a tampon when
Speaker 9: she's picked up by Byron and Kelly and Justin. There
Speaker 9: are two people on the team who have periods and
Speaker 9: know a little something about it. So when we were
Speaker 9: reading the autopsy report and found that she was in
Speaker 9: a pad that was not soiled, and that her underwear
Speaker 9: was also clean, we were like, wait a second, So
Speaker 9: she's using a tampon, but she's found in the cemetery
Speaker 9: with a pad and clean underwear, and that doesn't check out.
Speaker 9: Gravity is going to make sure that that pad has
Speaker 9: something on it. But the pad that she's found and
Speaker 9: is clean, and so is her underwear, and I suspect
Speaker 9: that on her old underwear there was probably some blood,
Speaker 9: and in fact, what Bob finds in the laundry room
Speaker 9: confirms this to me. Bob finds her underwear soaking in
Speaker 9: the sink, which again anyone with a period knows. You
Speaker 9: get a little blood on your underwear, you put it
Speaker 9: in cold water for a little bit to soak. Bob
Speaker 9: fines light colored jeans and when John Wright says that
Speaker 9: she saw Anastasia, don Wright says that she was in
Speaker 9: light colored jeans, she had to have gone home. If
Speaker 9: she hadn't gone home, she would still be wearing a
Speaker 9: tampon and there would be blood spotting on her underwear.
Speaker 1: According to Anastasia's mother, Betsy Owens, her daughter had a
Speaker 1: strong dislike for blood. Here she is talking about that
Speaker 1: in her interview with Sergeant Kilbour.
Speaker 8: An act of at ten plus. I knew that she
Speaker 8: just doesn't like blood at all. We should just go
Speaker 8: freak out. And she got a little cut from the
Speaker 8: time she was a kid, and she didn't like menstal
Speaker 8: periods because of waiting in that type of thing, and
Speaker 8: she just does not like blood at all.
Speaker 1: So, considering Anastasia's intense feelings about blood, would she have
Speaker 1: made it a priority to go home and change her underwear,
Speaker 1: her jeans and tampon or pad. It still doesn't answer
Speaker 1: the question why was Anastasia found wearing a clean pad
Speaker 1: and not a tampon if that's what don Wright gave her?
Speaker 1: And I have another question, and it goes back to
Speaker 1: what Quinn said about gravity. Let's say for the sake
Speaker 1: of argument, Anastasia was given a pad not a tampon
Speaker 1: at the Dairy Queen, then killed a short time after,
Speaker 1: like Kelly said she was. That would be less time
Speaker 1: for gravity to take hold and less time for any
Speaker 1: blood to show up on the pad. So maybe she
Speaker 1: could have died with a clean pad. I don't know
Speaker 1: what to make of the clean underwear part of this,
Speaker 1: But if Anastasia had been given a tampon and she
Speaker 1: went home to change from a tampon to a pad
Speaker 1: and was killed later that night, wouldn't that mean there's
Speaker 1: more time for gravity to take over and more time
Speaker 1: for blood to end up on the pad. Although you know,
Speaker 1: periods are weird, like you can go from bleeding to
Speaker 1: not to back to bleeding. Maybe Anastasia was killed during
Speaker 1: one of those breaks in the bleeding. Also, I still
Speaker 1: really wonder did Don Write really give Anastasia a tampon
Speaker 1: or did she give her a pad? I asked Nicole
Speaker 1: about that, because Don did change her story. Don first
Speaker 1: says it was a pad. Then a trial she says
Speaker 1: it was a tampon.
Speaker 3: Well, that she was found wearing an unsoiled pad, and
Speaker 3: Don says that she gave Anna Stasia a tampon. Don
Speaker 3: knows that it was a tampon because according to her,
Speaker 3: that's all she used since she was twelve. She wouldn't
Speaker 3: have given her a pad, and so that's that's very
Speaker 3: important fact. It means that Anastesa could not have gone
Speaker 3: directly from dairy Queen to where she was found, and
Speaker 3: that Kelly's stories a lie.
Speaker 1: So let me break this down for you. In nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety seven, Don Wright tells Sergeant Kilgore she gave Anastasia
Speaker 1: a pad. Actually, she says she didn't have anything with her,
Speaker 1: so she called her husband, who brought a pad to
Speaker 1: the dairy Queen. Then, at trial, almost five years later,
Speaker 1: she says it was actually a tampon she gave Anastasia.
Speaker 1: When prosecutor Teresa Crayon cross examines Don about this discrepancy,
Speaker 1: don says, quote, it was a tampon, and I know
Speaker 1: I told that guy that I just couldn't think of
Speaker 1: a polite name. Don finally says she knows it was
Speaker 1: a tampon because since she was thirteen or fourteen, she's
Speaker 1: used nothing but a tampon. Here's Byron's attorney, Brian Russell.
Speaker 2: When it came to the tampon and the pad stuff,
Speaker 2: I just kept thinking, like, well she made you know,
Speaker 2: don Wright must have made a mistake, or you know,
Speaker 2: she was mixed up about what she gave Anastasia. And
Speaker 2: for a while I was not. I didn't believe the
Speaker 2: she went home theory and It was only when Quinn
Speaker 2: and Nicole and Amanda are paralegal were like, no, women
Speaker 2: know what product they use, She's not gonna mistake that.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm a guy. I've never had a period,
Speaker 2: and so having that perspective and listening to it really did.
Speaker 2: I mean, that was a big part of breaking this
Speaker 2: open and realizing, well, shoot, she went home just like
Speaker 2: everyone said. And then looking at those emails where Bob
Speaker 2: says I found her blue jeans in the washing machine.
Speaker 2: I found a pair of her underwear soaking in the
Speaker 2: utility sync those that's what she was wearing at Dairy Queen.
Speaker 2: And if those made it home, that means she went home.
Speaker 2: And if she went home, Byron didn't do it.
Speaker 1: And so sadly, Don Wright passed away in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: The only other person who can answer the tampon versus
Speaker 1: pad question is Don Wright's husband from that time. He's
Speaker 1: the one who actually brought whatever it was to the
Speaker 1: Dairy Queen. I get him on the phone, and it
Speaker 1: is a major understatement to say he was annoyed by
Speaker 1: my call and my questions. He remembers that Don worked
Speaker 1: at the Dairy Queen and that's about it. We don't
Speaker 1: know if Anastasia preferred a tampon over a pad, but
Speaker 1: we do know from her mother's police interview that she
Speaker 1: hated the sight of blood. On November fifth, nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 1: when Kilgore goes to the Whitbol's Fugen house and looks
Speaker 1: in Anastasia's room, he writes in his report, quote inside
Speaker 1: a box setting on the floor, I observed several items.
Speaker 1: Included were numerous unused tampons. I asked mister Whitpble's Fugen
Speaker 1: if these belonged to Anastasia, and he stated they did so.
Speaker 1: Did she prefer tampon's or pads? Maybe what don Wright
Speaker 1: first told kil Gore is true, that she gave Anastasia
Speaker 1: a pad, and a pad is what she was found
Speaker 1: dead in, which could mean that Anastasia went right from
Speaker 1: the Dairy Queen to Mount Washington Cemetery to being killed
Speaker 1: in Lincoln Cemetery, like Kelly said. At any rate, it
Speaker 1: seems Sergeant Kilgore didn't spend any time investigating the genes,
Speaker 1: the underwear, the purse, the pad versus tampon thing, or
Speaker 1: whether or not Anastasia might have gone home here's Quinn again.
Speaker 9: We looked at Bob's emails, we looked at photographs from
Speaker 9: the crime scene. We looked at the timeline starting with
Speaker 9: don Wright's statements to the police and her testimony and
Speaker 9: Don Rand's statements to the police, and we created a
Speaker 9: timeline what we think is a much more accurate timeline,
Speaker 9: and we found ourselves agreeing with Bob. We think Anastasia
Speaker 9: went home that night. I think that dismissing things out
Speaker 9: of hand, even from people that you don't believe have credibility,
Speaker 9: you need to investigate. And I really think that Bob's
Speaker 9: harassment of the clerks, and Bob's harassment of Detective kill
Speaker 9: Gore and of the desk sergeants at Jackson County really
Speaker 9: caused them to dismiss everything he said out of hand.
Speaker 9: Do I trust everything Bob what Bill Sveegan says, Absolutely not?
Speaker 9: Absolutely not. Do I think there's some truth in some
Speaker 9: of what he said? Yes, because there are things in
Speaker 9: the world and other people in the world who corroborate
Speaker 9: what he said. When I have someone else telling me
Speaker 9: the same story, or when I have physical evidence that
Speaker 9: matches what he said, I'm going to take it more seriously.
Speaker 1: In one of my few calls with Bob, I try
Speaker 1: to ask him about this. Bob, tell me about you
Speaker 1: wrote to kill Gore and shared that you had found
Speaker 1: Anastasia's jeans and underwear at the house. Can you tell
Speaker 1: me about that?
Speaker 10: Yeah, No, I'm going to go there.
Speaker 1: Not going to go there now now I know I'm
Speaker 1: talking about it, Okay.
Speaker 2: Was not?
Speaker 10: Was not part of the part of the scenario that way,
Speaker 10: Taylor or.
Speaker 1: M yes, nom okay. So Bob doesn't want to talk
Speaker 1: about it. There was something else I would have liked
Speaker 1: to ask him. It has to do with something that
Speaker 1: was found at his house, on Anastasia's bed. Actually, here's
Speaker 1: Byron's attorney, Sean O'Brien.
Speaker 4: See.
Speaker 10: The other curious fact that nobody has talked about is
Speaker 10: that on Anastasia's bed in the middle of it is
Speaker 10: a stun gun. But nobody knows how did he get there,
Speaker 10: why was it there?
Speaker 1: That's right. When Sergeant Ron Kellogg goes to the Whipple's
Speaker 1: Fugen house on October twenty third to talk with Bob
Speaker 1: and his wife Diane, he finds a stun gun believed
Speaker 1: to be Anastasia's, on her bed, Sergeant's Kilgore and Kellogg
Speaker 1: asked Kelly Moffett about it in her first interview the
Speaker 1: day after Anastasia's body was found.
Speaker 7: Gun.
Speaker 6: You know what I'm talking about, like a taser type
Speaker 6: of thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Now, well Byron had one him.
Speaker 6: And Justin like always bought like super little toys.
Speaker 4: But he doesn't have my fevors hit. They have like
Speaker 4: number three hundred dollars.
Speaker 6: I never like looked at it closely.
Speaker 4: What is that one on a bay?
Speaker 8: It might have I'm not sure it might have been
Speaker 8: Justin him and Byron bought one.
Speaker 1: I don't think Byron has this anymore, but Justin just
Speaker 1: had all kinds of like real stuff. So Kelly says
Speaker 1: she's not sure if Anastasia had a stun gun, but
Speaker 1: she believes Byron and Justine at least at some point.
Speaker 1: In Tara McDowell's February third, nineteen ninety eight interview, remember
Speaker 1: Tara is part of that friend group, she is also
Speaker 1: asked about the stun gun. I don't know the audio
Speaker 1: for her interview, but I'll tell you what she says
Speaker 1: because I have the transcript, which is that Anastasia did
Speaker 1: own a stun gun, but she only carried it with
Speaker 1: her on a few occasions. Tara says Byron had a
Speaker 1: stun gun too. Tara then tells a troubling story that
Speaker 1: one day they wanted to see how the stun gun
Speaker 1: worked and quote, they didn't want to shock one of
Speaker 1: the three of themselves. Not sure exactly who the three
Speaker 1: she's referring to are, but Tara says, they quote tased
Speaker 1: a drunk guy behind Mill Creek down in Westport. They
Speaker 1: tased him. He was just sitting there on the steps,
Speaker 1: and they walked up and stuck it to his neck,
Speaker 1: held it there for a minute, then pulled it away.
Speaker 1: Tara said, so she didn't think Anastasia's stun gun was
Speaker 1: that powerful, and the guy was drunk, so she wasn't
Speaker 1: sure it even phazed the guy anyway. Bob even talks
Speaker 1: about the stun gun found on Anastasia's bed in his
Speaker 1: interview with Kilgore back in November of nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 6: The crime You asked me once if I had any
Speaker 6: physical evidence from the crime scene, and I said no
Speaker 6: at that time, and I started thinking, well, what possibly
Speaker 6: could have been considered the crime scene? Since I'm assuming
Speaker 6: it's the Lincoln Cemetery, at least by some scenarios. I'm thinking, okay,
Speaker 6: I can reasonably suspect that my daughter was at my
Speaker 6: home that evening, and that at my home that evening
Speaker 6: or the next day, I discovered the stun gun, and
Speaker 6: unfortunately that was never gathered as information as evidence, but
Speaker 6: I think it may lead to a possible scenario the
Speaker 6: confirmation thereof Unfortunately, mister Kellogg, who came out to the house,
Speaker 6: handled that item and destroyed any possibility for that to
Speaker 6: be used with fingerprint evidence.
Speaker 1: The stun gun isn't taken into evidence, and from what
Speaker 1: I can tell, the Whippel's Fugen home is not searched
Speaker 1: until November fifth, nineteen ninety seven, fourteen days after Anastasia
Speaker 1: was murdered. Even at that time, the stun gun isn't
Speaker 1: taken into evidence. So why was Anastasia's stun gun out
Speaker 1: on her bed? What if anything happened at the house,
Speaker 1: And again, if she really did go home, how did
Speaker 1: she get there? Did she get a ride from someone
Speaker 1: or did she walk? Remember Bob's wife, Diane allegedly said
Speaker 1: that the cold back would do her good. But Diane
Speaker 1: would have been talking about Anastasia walking the three plus
Speaker 1: miles home around five point thirty pm. According to everyone
Speaker 1: else who saw Anastasia that night, that walk home after
Speaker 1: she allegedly got out of Justin's car would have happened
Speaker 1: much later than that. Starting route to North Delaware Avenue, well,
Speaker 1: I'm in Kansas City. I want to see what the
Speaker 1: roughly three and a half mile walk from Truman Road
Speaker 1: and the I four thirty five to Anastasia's house would
Speaker 1: have been like. However, I don't walk it. I drive
Speaker 1: it multiple times. According to Google Maps, driving it takes
Speaker 1: about eight minutes. It says it would take an hour
Speaker 1: and twenty four minutes to walk it. And remember that night,
Speaker 1: Anastasia was either wearing Doc Martin's shoes or Birkenstock sandals
Speaker 1: with socks. Can you imagine walking ninety minutes in slides
Speaker 1: and socks. I record the early part of the drive,
Speaker 1: which I will put on the Real Killer Podcast Instagram page. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: starting out, Truman Road is a four lane road, two
Speaker 1: lanes going each way, and there are no sidewalks for
Speaker 1: a long stretch of it. Today there's a fireworks store
Speaker 1: where in nineteen ninety seven, the Amico station used to
Speaker 1: be the old Phillip sixty sixth station. Next door is
Speaker 1: still a gas station, but with a different name, Erotic City.
Speaker 1: The adult bookstore is still there. All of that is
Speaker 1: on my right A short way up on Truman Road.
Speaker 1: On my left is where an entrance to Lincoln's Cemetery
Speaker 1: used to be. Today, that entrance is closed. As I
Speaker 1: continue on, there are woods on both sides of Truman Road.
Speaker 1: Then there's a bridge at the top of the hill.
Speaker 1: That road is Blue Ridge Boulevard, where to the left
Speaker 1: is the main entrance to Lincoln Cemetery. To the right
Speaker 1: of that bridge is the Cimarron Apartments. That's where Bob
Speaker 1: said he heard that eleven thirty pm gunshot come from
Speaker 1: when he was standing nearby at Mount Washington Cemetery. As
Speaker 1: I continue driving towards Anastasia's house, there are several homes, businesses,
Speaker 1: high school, and in the distance you can see the
Speaker 1: shiny spire of the Independence Mormon Temple. I drive a
Speaker 1: bit longer than I come upon the National Historic Site,
Speaker 1: the Truman Home, where Harry and best Truman lived after
Speaker 1: they married in nineteen nineteen. It was their summer white
Speaker 1: house while Harry Truman was president, and it's where they
Speaker 1: lived after leaving Washington through Harry Truman's death in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy two. Just down the street from the Truman home
Speaker 1: is where Anastasia lived. It's a lovely block with big
Speaker 1: houses and mature trees. As I pass by her beautiful home,
Speaker 1: I feel a wave of melancholy. I can't help but
Speaker 1: think of what her life could have been. I can't
Speaker 1: help but think of the sadness that must have filled
Speaker 1: that house in the years after she died. I have
Speaker 1: to say, And I realize I'm not Anastasia, and this
Speaker 1: is pure speculation on my part, but after just driving
Speaker 1: the route, I can't imagine walking it after dark, even
Speaker 1: if I were super mad at my boyfriend, I kind
Speaker 1: of just don't think that happened. And remember, Anastasia was
Speaker 1: waiting for a ride to go to Mount Washington Cemetery
Speaker 1: that day. If she wasn't willing to walk there, why
Speaker 1: would she be okay with walking home. So maybe Anastasia
Speaker 1: got a ride, or maybe what Kelly said was true,
Speaker 1: Anastasia never made it home. If Anastasia made it home
Speaker 1: that night, whether it was by car or on foot,
Speaker 1: is still unknown. But if she did, there's almost a
Speaker 1: bigger question still lingering. Here's Attorney Sean O'Brien.
Speaker 10: How did she get back out to the cemetery. I
Speaker 10: do not know, We don't know. That's a non answered.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm in the area. I drive through Mount Washington Cemetery,
Speaker 1: I go across the street to where the Dairy Queen
Speaker 1: used to be, and of course I go to Lincoln Cemetery.
Speaker 1: On this particular day, I asked Sean and his daughter,
Speaker 1: investigator Quinn O'Brien, to meet me there. So here we
Speaker 1: are at Lincoln Cemetery. Can you just sort of can
Speaker 1: we go in? Yeah?
Speaker 9: Bet you bet.
Speaker 10: The gates are open today so that we could actually
Speaker 10: drive in.
Speaker 9: The really nice marble sign. Right there is brand new
Speaker 9: Lincoln's Cemetery sign over there. I was not here in
Speaker 9: the nineties.
Speaker 1: We enter the main gate, which is the only entrance
Speaker 1: that exists day, and walk the long, narrow road.
Speaker 9: Most of the headstones here are flat. It really doesn't
Speaker 9: look like a cemetery until you get inside.
Speaker 10: This is a historically black cemetery. This was a black
Speaker 10: neighborhood that neither city wanted, and so it's this odd
Speaker 10: little bubble in between two cities that is not part
Speaker 10: of a city. It's a vestige of racism in city government.
Speaker 10: Soon we'll see Charlie Parker's grave. He is buried here,
Speaker 10: and several Negro Leagues baseball players are buried here, So
Speaker 10: it's really a historic cemetery.
Speaker 1: It is, but Charlie Parker, the famous jazz musician and composer,
Speaker 1: was buried at Lincoln Cemetery in nineteen fifty five.
Speaker 10: You know, the other thing about this cemetery is how
Speaker 10: isolated it is.
Speaker 5: Even though it is in the city.
Speaker 10: The only traffic you would see is on this road,
Speaker 10: Blue Ridge cut Off, that goes north and south along
Speaker 10: the eastern boundary of the cemetery. When you look south,
Speaker 10: there's thick woods and at the bottom of the hill,
Speaker 10: but you can't see it from here is Truman Road.
Speaker 5: We've been out.
Speaker 10: Here in the dark, and it is dark. And then
Speaker 10: looking to the north, it's even more heavily wooded, and
Speaker 10: it's probably half a mile to three quarters of a
Speaker 10: mile before you would see the next house to the
Speaker 10: north of here. So on all four sides it's surrounded
Speaker 10: by woods.
Speaker 9: There are no lights here at all.
Speaker 1: No light poles.
Speaker 10: Right, no sources of ground lights.
Speaker 9: We're just about to the spot where Anastasia was found.
Speaker 9: There's a loop at the top of the hill where
Speaker 9: the roads come together, the one that used to come
Speaker 9: up from Truman Road that's no longer passable, and the
Speaker 9: one that we came in on, just off Blue Ridge,
Speaker 9: and they come together in a place and form a
Speaker 9: little grass triangle. And it's here at the very top
Speaker 9: of this hill, in this little grass triangle that Anastasia
Speaker 9: was found.
Speaker 10: Her head was right here on the edge of the
Speaker 10: grassy part of this small triangle of grass, and her
Speaker 10: feet were pointing to the north. And so this is
Speaker 10: where this is where Anastasia died.
Speaker 9: And this is where Bob was standing when Epperson drove
Speaker 9: up and found him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there in the last episode we talked a
Speaker 1: lot about how Deputy David Epperson found Bob at the
Speaker 1: exact spot where Anastasia died. Eperson found it significant enough
Speaker 1: that he wrote a lengthy report about it. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: there there was no caution tape up that day when
Speaker 1: Bob came.
Speaker 10: No, all that had been removed.
Speaker 1: I'm just playing Devil's advocate. Had the news crews come
Speaker 1: in and shown on the news where her body was found.
Speaker 10: There really wasn't anything that would have told him this
Speaker 10: was the spot. You know, she was clearly deceased when
Speaker 10: she was found, so there weren't like bandages or things
Speaker 10: from you know that ambulance crews or paramedics would often
Speaker 10: leave behind, no clues like that at all. There had
Speaker 10: been some rain, I think after and so even any
Speaker 10: blood that you know, frankly, some soaked into the ground,
Speaker 10: but the rain would have taken it away. So he
Speaker 10: came in the entrance that we just walked down, and
Speaker 10: Eperson was surprised to see Whitbills Fugen standing right here.
Speaker 10: Bulsfugen was startled when he saw Eperson, and so he
Speaker 10: said something like, is this about the right place?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 10: And so yeah, I mean when you look at the
Speaker 10: vastness of this, the fact that he would notice stop
Speaker 10: right here, I find kind of suspicious, frankly.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 9: Eperson, right, Yeah, A person found it suspicious enough to
Speaker 9: record it in great detail.
Speaker 1: Where was the tree that had the glass and paint chips?
Speaker 10: Right, so from where we're standing, you see to the
Speaker 10: left of the lane there is a tree there. There
Speaker 10: was also a tree to the right of the lane
Speaker 10: a little closer to us from this, but they measured
Speaker 10: about about eighty feet to the east of here, there
Speaker 10: was a tree that had damage on the bark. There
Speaker 10: had been paint transfer from the car to the tree,
Speaker 10: and there was headlight glass and colored glass at the
Speaker 10: trunk of the tree. So that was about eighty feet
Speaker 10: directly east of where we're standing.
Speaker 1: And I know I've asked Quinn this, but do we
Speaker 1: know what color the paint chips were.
Speaker 10: We don't know what color the paint chips were. We
Speaker 10: have the regional crime lab logs, and while there is
Speaker 10: a report that it was discovered the paint chips were collected,
Speaker 10: the glass was collected, we don't have it logged into
Speaker 10: the crime lab, and we don't have it logged into
Speaker 10: the property room.
Speaker 1: And no description is given.
Speaker 10: No description of the color of the paint.
Speaker 1: We do know again, Bob's car was never processed. Neither
Speaker 1: was Byron's. Justin's car was processed and then excluded.
Speaker 10: I think that if Bob did what he told Eperson
Speaker 10: that he did driving up and down Truman Road to
Speaker 10: see where that shot came from, that he felt in
Speaker 10: his heart at eleven thirty pm on October twenty second,
Speaker 10: was the shot that took his daughter's life. I don't
Speaker 10: know if he's right about that or not, but he
Speaker 10: believed that. And if you believe that, he drove up
Speaker 10: and down Truman Road like he said, he'd have found
Speaker 10: the Truman Road entrance.
Speaker 1: Was there a sign for Lincoln Cemetery back then at
Speaker 1: that north entrance?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 10: I don't know. I don't know if there was.
Speaker 1: On October twenty second, twenty twenty two, which was the
Speaker 1: twenty fifth anniversary of Anastasia's death, Byron's legal team and
Speaker 1: a professional photographer went to Lincoln Cemetery to document what
Speaker 1: the light and visibility are at various stages of sunset.
Speaker 1: I'm going to post those photos on Instagram. Byron's team
Speaker 1: says they did this because they believe Anastasia was killed
Speaker 1: later than what Kelly testified to. Kelly said in regard
Speaker 1: to seeing Anastasia on the ground after she was shot, quote,
Speaker 1: it was light enough for me to be able to see.
Speaker 1: Byron's legal team says, because there are no lights in
Speaker 1: Lincoln Cemetery in order for Kelly to have seen the
Speaker 1: murder take place, it would have had to have happened
Speaker 1: between seven and seven fifteen pm. And they say that's
Speaker 1: impossible because Don Wright said Anastasia was at the Dairy
Speaker 1: Queen between eight and nine thirty pm. Her boss, Suleiman
Speaker 1: Saliz said she was there from seven seven thirty to
Speaker 1: about eight thirty or nine. Don Rand at the Ambuko
Speaker 1: station said he saw Anastasia get out of the car
Speaker 1: on Truman Road around eight thirty. If those three saw
Speaker 1: Anastasia alive as late as eight thirty nine, then how
Speaker 1: could Kelly have seen her killed before making it home
Speaker 1: for her curfew at nine pm? Because the only thing
Speaker 1: we know for sure is that Kelly made at home
Speaker 1: to Kansas for her curfew around nine pm. Now, Glenn Caliver,
Speaker 1: the Mount Washington Cemetery caretaker, originally told investigators around seven
Speaker 1: oh five pm he saw car lights going towards the
Speaker 1: Nelson Mausoleum. That turned out to be the car Anastasia, Justin,
Speaker 1: Byron and Kelly were in. They left soon after. At trial,
Speaker 1: mister Cliver changed his story to say that he saw
Speaker 1: them at nine pm. Regardless if what mister Cliver said
Speaker 1: in his original statement is true that he saw them
Speaker 1: around seven oh five pm. And if what Kelly said
Speaker 1: is true that after they were ushered out of Mount
Speaker 1: Washington Cemetery they went to Lincoln Cemetery where Byron killed Anastasia,
Speaker 1: doesn't that make sense in terms of light and time?
Speaker 1: Maybe Don Wright, Suleiman Slid and Don Rand were mistaken
Speaker 1: about what time they saw Anastasia, or in Don Rand's case,
Speaker 1: that he saw Anastasia at all. And one more quick thing,
Speaker 1: call Over said he saw headlights going towards the Nelson Mausoleum.
Speaker 1: That means Justin had his lights on right Cultin Justin's
Speaker 1: headlights have helped illuminate the scene for Kelly at Lincoln Cemetery.
Speaker 1: While I'm there with Shawn and Quinn, I ask if
Speaker 1: there was anyone in Anastasia's circle familiar with Lincoln Cemetery.
Speaker 1: According to them, just Patrick Rock, Anastasia and Bob's close.
Speaker 10: Friend Pat Rock knew about Lincoln Cemetery because his one
Speaker 10: of his hobbies is Negro League's baseball history. And we
Speaker 10: saw on a website, you know, thanking him for identifying
Speaker 10: the graves of four Negro Leagues baseball players who are
Speaker 10: buried here. And he made that find before Anastasia died.
Speaker 9: In nineteen ninety five. That you made that find. One
Speaker 9: of the headstones is just right over there. You can
Speaker 9: see it from here in that b one row.
Speaker 1: Can we walk over there?
Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, sure, Yeah. So it was Fred Hicks.
Speaker 1: Yep, he's a.
Speaker 9: Negro League ballplayer. Yeah, this is one of the headstones
Speaker 9: that Pat Rock identified back in nineteen ninety five. You know,
Speaker 9: he was a historian of the Negro leagues. We have
Speaker 9: our Negro League Baseball Museum here in Kansas City. Yeah,
Speaker 9: Fred Hicks eighteen eighty eight to nineteen fifty.
Speaker 5: Wow, we go right there, there's Fred.
Speaker 9: Hicks, and then there's at least one other Negro league
Speaker 9: ballplayer buried close by. But I think we're about, I
Speaker 9: don't know, fifty sixty feet from where Anastasia died, probably sixty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just to be clear, Pat Rock was never
Speaker 1: interviewed by police, by investigators in an official set like
Speaker 1: there were emails, there were you know, there was correspondence
Speaker 1: and there were conversations, but he never sat down for
Speaker 1: an inner.
Speaker 10: No. And now Bob Whitbolls Fugen mentioned Pat. Bob and
Speaker 10: Pat were good friends. When Bob recently got his probation
Speaker 10: revoked and was sent to prison. Pat Rock was there
Speaker 10: in the courtroom and took Bob's wallet and keys and
Speaker 10: personal property, so we know they are and they were
Speaker 10: very good friends. And Bob did tell Detective Killgre that
Speaker 10: if Anastasia were going to call anybody, it would be
Speaker 10: Pat Rock, because apparently they were close.
Speaker 9: But that would have been something hard to look up
Speaker 9: because the morning after Anastasia's body was found, Pat Rock
Speaker 9: changed his phone number.
Speaker 10: So one of the questions we're asking was Pat Rock
Speaker 10: her ride home.
Speaker 1: Although we talked about Patrick Rock and all of that
Speaker 1: in the last episode, I wonder did Sergeant Kilgore write
Speaker 1: anything substantial about Patrick Rock in any of his reports
Speaker 1: he did. Here is what Kilgore writes in his report
Speaker 1: after talking with Bob on November twenty one, nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 1: quote mister whipples Fugen thanked me for talking to Patrick
Speaker 1: Rock and for not disclosing any information about the case
Speaker 1: to him. Mister whipples Fugen then asked me if Rock
Speaker 1: had an alibi for that evening. I told mister whitbles
Speaker 1: Fugen that I had not inquired about his whereabouts of
Speaker 1: that evening. Mister Whipples fugen stated Rock was a contact
Speaker 1: that Anastasia would call if no other ride was available.
Speaker 1: Mister whipples fugen stated Rock has had in the past
Speaker 1: a pager and Anastasia knew the number by heart. I
Speaker 1: asked mister Whipple's fugen if he suspected Patrick Rock. Mister
Speaker 1: Whipple's fugen stated he would suspect that Rock had contact
Speaker 1: with Anastasia sometime that night if she needed a ride
Speaker 1: or had to get to Kansas, Rock may have offered
Speaker 1: to take her to Justin's apartment or somewhere else. Here's
Speaker 1: Quinn again.
Speaker 9: I don't know if that was Bob's way of phishing
Speaker 9: for more information to see if the Jackson County Sheriff
Speaker 9: had any evidence that Pat Rock was at the scene.
Speaker 9: It could have also been Bob trying to throw his
Speaker 9: best friend under the bos so that, you know, whatever
Speaker 9: his involvement or culpability might be, the attention would be
Speaker 9: shifted to Pat instead of him.
Speaker 1: Once Patrick and I got past him and Kelly accusing
Speaker 1: me of harassing Kelly's mom, Deborah Moffatt, which we talked
Speaker 1: about in the last episode, I sent Patrick some questions
Speaker 1: and he responded. Over the course of several emails. By
Speaker 1: the way, Patrick is quite loquacious, so some of his
Speaker 1: responses are edited for time. I start with some questions
Speaker 1: about Anastasia and whether or not Patrick thinks she went
Speaker 1: home that night. His responses are read by an actor.
Speaker 7: All of which I am certain is that Anastasia changed
Speaker 7: her clothes and feminine protection and put her genes in
Speaker 7: underwear in the washing machine. Just my opinion, but I
Speaker 7: believe that while Case had earlier abandoned his idea of
Speaker 7: killing her, hence justin not bothering to pick her up
Speaker 7: at Mount Washington, he undeniably decided at that time to
Speaker 7: kill her and suggested they go back to Mount Washington
Speaker 7: to talk. I believe they went from the DQ straight
Speaker 7: to her house and then to the cemeteries.
Speaker 1: I then ask why didn't Kelly say they went to
Speaker 1: Anastasia's house if that's in fact what happened.
Speaker 7: I believe it was because Case had rehearsed her to
Speaker 7: tell one story to the police, and he omitted the
Speaker 7: detour to Anastasia's house because it would have raised unanswerable questions.
Speaker 7: It was just four days past her fifteenth birthday when
Speaker 7: she saw the murderer and it was easily manipulated by Case.
Speaker 7: I asked her about it earlier this year, and she
Speaker 7: could not remember twenty five plus years later whether it
Speaker 7: happened or not, since she had been made to tell
Speaker 7: the same story for two years. D Q Mount Washington
Speaker 7: around the Truman Road, Anastasia exits to police and additional
Speaker 7: details were purged to keep the alib by as simple
Speaker 7: as possible. When she finally broke down and confessed, no
Speaker 7: one asked about it and it was not in her
Speaker 7: memory by then. We have evidence that Anastasia was at
Speaker 7: home closed in the wash, so I believe that they
Speaker 7: did come to Anastasia's home, and I believe that Kelly
Speaker 7: was so traumatized after witnessing the murder and so well
Speaker 7: trained manipulated to tell the one story Case convinced her
Speaker 7: that she was an accomplice and was just as guilty
Speaker 7: as he, that she could not remember relatively minor details
Speaker 7: having been omitted.
Speaker 1: I asked Patrick what he makes of the stun gun
Speaker 1: found on Anastasia's bed. He writes, quote, I do not know.
Speaker 7: All I know is Bob found it, told an officer
Speaker 7: and watched the officer pick it up bare handed. Spoiling
Speaker 7: any fingerprints, which was his first complain about the unprofessional
Speaker 7: behavior of the Sheriff's department.
Speaker 5: I heard all this days after the fact.
Speaker 1: I then asked Patrick about how Bob said he changed
Speaker 1: his phone number that evening or that day, because the
Speaker 1: day after the day when Anastasia's body was found, Bob
Speaker 1: couldn't get a hold of Patrick. He responds with quote.
Speaker 7: This was in the days of internet by dialog, and
Speaker 7: I had two separate phone lines, one for voice communication
Speaker 7: and the other strictly for Internet dial up. AT and
Speaker 7: T had recently offered the feature of call notes, where
Speaker 7: I could be on line and let a message go
Speaker 7: directly to voicemail, not interrupting my online work, but still
Speaker 7: not rendering me completely incommunocado while doing so. The change
Speaker 7: went into place on the twenty third of October nineteen
Speaker 7: ninety seven.
Speaker 5: By sheer coincidence.
Speaker 7: Bob had my work phone, but I had changed jobs
Speaker 7: only a month earlier, and he only had my old number. Fortunately,
Speaker 7: I kept in touch with my old coworkers and they
Speaker 7: had my number, but it was a difficult few hours.
Speaker 7: Bob admitted to me much later that just for an
Speaker 7: hour or so, he wondered if I was involved in
Speaker 7: the murder and had absconded, or alternatively, whether something had
Speaker 7: also happened to me and was part of a big conspiracy.
Speaker 7: Such are the fears and paranoia that can hit us
Speaker 7: during a tragedy when information is incomplete. My cruel fate
Speaker 7: changing my phone plan also wiped out the voicemail messages
Speaker 7: I had saved on the pous line, including my last
Speaker 7: two or three messages from Anastasia, and did so on
Speaker 7: the day after her death.
Speaker 1: I asked Patrick when was the last time he spoke
Speaker 1: with Anastasia. Did she call him that night? He says
Speaker 1: that she called him two nights before the murder.
Speaker 7: She called me on twenty October just to say hello,
Speaker 7: around ten thirty in the evening. We chatted for about
Speaker 7: twenty minutes about how she was doing about her relationship
Speaker 7: with Justin. She said at the time that she had
Speaker 7: it under control, which was something I doubted she could
Speaker 7: understand at eighteen years old. We closed our conversation the
Speaker 7: way we always did. The last words I said to
Speaker 7: her were I love you, and her reply was love
Speaker 7: you too.
Speaker 1: Another question is about how Bob asked Sergeant Kilgore where
Speaker 1: Patrick was the night of October twenty second? Why does
Speaker 1: Patrick think Bob ask Kilgore that and where was he
Speaker 1: that night?
Speaker 7: Patrick responds with because I personally asked Bob to do so.
Speaker 5: Kil Gore kept going on and on about.
Speaker 7: How none was being ruled out as a suspect, primarily
Speaker 7: as an excuse for his own inaction. He'd only talked
Speaker 7: to me briefly about Anastasia, never checking whether I had
Speaker 7: an alibi, but was being vindictive with Bob, and I
Speaker 7: wanted to see whether he was going to play that
Speaker 7: game with me. Kilgore didn't bite. I still consider him
Speaker 7: a poor detective and a rather petty individual, but he
Speaker 7: is not dumb.
Speaker 1: I asked Patrick why Anastasia's mom, Betsy Owens said in
Speaker 1: her interview with Kilgore that she had been keeping the
Speaker 1: kids away from him, and that she told one of
Speaker 1: her brothers she thought he was a quote latent pedophile.
Speaker 1: He responds with.
Speaker 7: Well, I fail to see why your question has even
Speaker 7: the slightest connection with Byron Case's attempts to reverse his conviction,
Speaker 7: other than a supporter's use of anything which they can
Speaker 7: get hold to attack and damage people. I will answer
Speaker 7: if only in the hope of putting it to rest.
Speaker 7: They say that we should speak no ill of the dead,
Speaker 7: but occasionally it may be necessary, and this is just
Speaker 7: such a case. Betsy was an old friend we met
Speaker 7: in nineteen eighty one, but was also a frequently manipulative
Speaker 7: and vindictive person, and she and I had been on
Speaker 7: very bad terms for more than a year at that point.
Speaker 7: I felt that her marriage to Bart, a habitual cocaine user,
Speaker 7: had become a code of pendent relationship, that she was
Speaker 7: putting her daughters in danger as a result. We stopped
Speaker 7: speaking after a serious incident in nineteen ninety six. I
Speaker 7: can count on one hand the number of times we
Speaker 7: spoke after that. In November nineteen ninety seven, when speaking
Speaker 7: to police, Betsy thought what she was saying was confidential,
Speaker 7: would never get back to me or anyone else, and,
Speaker 7: to use one of her daughter's phrase, she had no filters.
Speaker 5: She was angry.
Speaker 7: She would say things to hurt others, irrespective of the truth,
Speaker 7: and here she twisted and exaggerated minor moments into major accusations.
Speaker 7: If you read her entire interview thirty two pages, you
Speaker 7: may note she frequently would go off on tangents. It
Speaker 7: is significant to me that JCSD never asked me anything
Speaker 7: about it, nor used it in any way during the trial,
Speaker 7: but when it was released as part of the body
Speaker 7: of the investigation, the FBC group leapt upon it as
Speaker 7: a way to attack others. I met her in nineteen
Speaker 7: eighty one when I sought psychological counseling for work related stress,
Speaker 7: and Betsy was my therapist for a period of six months.
Speaker 7: She quit her job when she gave birth to her
Speaker 7: second daughter, Francesca. She helped me a great deal with
Speaker 7: that issue, and I became a family friend. I am
Speaker 7: eternally grateful for her girls having become such a large
Speaker 7: and important part of my life. It turns out, however,
Speaker 7: that there are limits to a friendship. Slander is one
Speaker 7: such limit. She blamed me for Anastasia deciding to become
Speaker 7: a religious skeptic. I did not talk religion with any
Speaker 7: of the girls, something of which I made a strict point,
Speaker 7: having actually driven them to church a few times in
Speaker 7: their younger days, until such time as they brought up
Speaker 7: the subject themselves. Contrary to Betsy's claims, I am not
Speaker 7: an atheist, falling mostly into the category of spiritual but
Speaker 7: non religious. Anastasia first came to her own conclusions about
Speaker 7: sixteen and called me as a trusted mentor, only having
Speaker 7: brought the subject up with her mother. She told me
Speaker 7: at the time that her mother had blamed me for
Speaker 7: even thinking of such things. By that time, Betsy and
Speaker 7: I were barely on speaking terms due to the danger
Speaker 7: in which I felt she was putting them. On page
Speaker 7: nine of her interview, she blithely states that her husband,
Speaker 7: Bart was a crack addict in recovery, with two to
Speaker 7: three relapses during that time, and described how they were
Speaker 7: broken into while Bart was drinking. The truth is that
Speaker 7: he was drinking and using crack and chased her and
Speaker 7: her children out of the house with violent threats, then
Speaker 7: ransacked the house, including the girls rooms, with a friend
Speaker 7: for whatever they could sell and converted to more drugs
Speaker 7: and my urging. Anastasia filed charges against her stepfather, but
Speaker 7: her mother coerced her in a dropping them.
Speaker 5: However, she did not return to the home.
Speaker 7: Yes, Betsy blamed me for having encouraged Anastasia and Francesca
Speaker 7: to move out and live with their father in nineteen
Speaker 7: ninety six. I actually encouraged alfoorda move out for their
Speaker 7: own safety. She never forgave me, and for the fact
Speaker 7: that her husband was physically afraid of me.
Speaker 5: This was her revenge.
Speaker 1: Patrick goes on to.
Speaker 7: Write, yes, I had a stepmother who was an alcoholic,
Speaker 7: which did indeed leave scars on me and my siblings.
Speaker 7: But I told that to Betsy during counseling, as well
Speaker 7: as the fact that I had an older half brother,
Speaker 7: fifteen years my senior, who pled guilty to sexual battery
Speaker 7: after having had an affair with a teenage girl when
Speaker 7: he was nearly forty. It was consensual, but she was
Speaker 7: under age and he knew better, and he served a
Speaker 7: sentence of a year in county jail. He died in
Speaker 7: two thousand and one in New Mexico. I recall that
Speaker 7: Betsy mentioned him in her police statement as if it
Speaker 7: reflected upon me again information gained as a psychological counselor.
Speaker 7: I did not turn the girls against their stepparents. Their
Speaker 7: stepparents did that by themselves. It is odd to me
Speaker 7: that she would claim she thought me a latent pedophile
Speaker 7: when she personally called on me numerous times.
Speaker 5: The babysit them for each girl's.
Speaker 7: Tenth birthday, I took them on a special night dinner
Speaker 7: at a Japanese steakhouse, a movie of their choice, and
Speaker 7: a horse drawn carriage ride through the country club Plaza
Speaker 7: Casey shopping district. I did not recall their mother being
Speaker 7: anything but absolutely supportive of the nights out. Betsy was
Speaker 7: nominally a member of her mother's fundamentalist congregation, but only.
Speaker 5: Grabbed a hold of her faith.
Speaker 7: I put it in quotes for an obvious reason to
Speaker 7: justify her codependent marriage to a drug addict. Since she
Speaker 7: had earlier decided that Anastasia had lost her faith due
Speaker 7: to my influence, it was something to blame me for
Speaker 7: his punishment for not having supported her one hundred percent.
Speaker 7: As it is, My relationship with the girls continued and
Speaker 7: does to this day. Bob's younger brother, Hugo, is still alive,
Speaker 7: so I feel no qualms in calling him a nutcase.
Speaker 5: Bob calls him that as well. Well.
Speaker 7: As Hugo is both a religious and political extremist, he
Speaker 7: could not understand my relationship with Anastasia and her sisters
Speaker 7: and assumed the worst in his dirty mind. I find
Speaker 7: that people of this mindset tend to project their worst
Speaker 7: fears onto others, assuming that others are all capable of
Speaker 7: the same dark urges as they, but much more impure.
Speaker 7: Hugo never confronted me nor the girls about such matters,
Speaker 7: never sought to confirm or refute his beliefs, but just
Speaker 7: muttered his suspicions to Bob, which Bob casually repeated to Betsy,
Speaker 7: and never to me, which Betsy twisted and used a
Speaker 7: police interview as a forum. As I said, she was vindictive.
Speaker 7: I first learned of her accusations only when they were
Speaker 7: released to the FBC group, which published them on their website,
Speaker 7: and Betsy refused to repudiate the statement for fear of
Speaker 7: losing her license to practice psychology. It ended up with
Speaker 7: her voluntarily surrendering her license and retiring anyway after I
Speaker 7: decided to file a complaint against her with the board
Speaker 7: in two thousand and three. My complaint against Betsy was
Speaker 7: that she had wrongfully disclosed information which I had confided
Speaker 7: to her as a patient, had done so for a
Speaker 7: malicious reason, and had included falsehoods with that information in
Speaker 7: an effort to slander me. I was not aware until
Speaker 7: I filed the complaint that she had violated her ethics
Speaker 7: many years before, simply by befriending me immediately after having
Speaker 7: been my counselor. Missouri law requires not having a personal
Speaker 7: relationship with a client for one year after they ceased
Speaker 7: to be one's client. I did not file that charge,
Speaker 7: and they became moot after she retired, even though it
Speaker 7: did not repair the damage she did me. That was
Speaker 7: the last time we spoke to each other.
Speaker 1: Patrick continues with.
Speaker 7: And now, after having spent an unnecessary amount of time
Speaker 7: on this, I must ask what makes this even the
Speaker 7: least bit relevant to Byron case the supporter's efforts to
Speaker 7: free him. What makes this so relevant that you felt
Speaker 7: a need to raise it. I do not recall it
Speaker 7: being used anywhere except by the FBC group as a
Speaker 7: way to slander me.
Speaker 1: For the record, I asked Patrick about this because legally
Speaker 1: I have to give him a chance to respond to
Speaker 1: Betsy's allegations. Unfortunately, I can't ask Betsy to verify or
Speaker 1: deny Patrick's allegations because she passed away in April of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. Another question I asked Patrick is about
Speaker 1: how he was is a Negro Baseball League researcher and historian.
Speaker 1: His connection to Lincoln Cemetery and how he felt about
Speaker 1: Anastasia being killed there. Patrick responds with.
Speaker 7: I remain a Negro league research you're only remotely active
Speaker 7: now of Famer Wilbur Bullet Rogan is buried in Blue
Speaker 7: Ridge Lawn Memorial, just a mile or so south of
Speaker 7: Lincoln Cemetery on the same road. But there are no
Speaker 7: Negro leaguers of whom I know buried at Lincoln. However,
Speaker 7: Jazz immortal Charlie Bird Parker is buried not one hundred
Speaker 7: and fifty feet from where Case murdered Anastasia. I was
Speaker 7: unaware of that fact until after the murder, never having
Speaker 7: visited Lincoln until November nineteen ninety seven. However, because members
Speaker 7: of the FBC group occasionally would visit the cemetery on
Speaker 7: the anniversary of the murder and leave posters and placards,
Speaker 7: for a few years, I took to sitting inside the
Speaker 7: cemetery in my car near the spot of the murder,
Speaker 7: holding vigil until about seven thirty PM, the approximate time
Speaker 7: of the murder, and then leave. Kids who never knew
Speaker 7: Anastasia but had heard of the murder also liked to
Speaker 7: come up there on a Dare on that anniversary, only
Speaker 7: nine days before Halloween, and whole seances or generally littered
Speaker 7: the place, and I had run ins with both groups
Speaker 7: at least once each. The last time, I was sitting
Speaker 7: with the car's engine running but lights off, when I
Speaker 7: saw a car coming up the backway the route that
Speaker 7: case had justin drive. I waited until they were within
Speaker 7: one hundred feet, turned on my brights, red my engines,
Speaker 7: and hit the emergency blinkers. That is a treacherously narrow pathway.
Speaker 7: They came up, and they surprised me and how quickly
Speaker 7: they turned.
Speaker 5: The car around and retreated.
Speaker 7: I'm sure they thought I was the police. Nothing is
Speaker 7: exciting with the FBC. They just stood and glared at me.
Speaker 7: I assumed they glared. I could not see their expressions
Speaker 7: from that far away in such dim light, and then
Speaker 7: retreated without putting up any signs. One time they left
Speaker 7: but tried entering later on the same night, hoping I
Speaker 7: had left by then. That was the one time that
Speaker 7: Bob joined me, so they were actually outnumbered. Eventually, Lincoln's
Speaker 7: Cemetery finally blocked the back entrance people were dumping trash
Speaker 7: there as well, and put a gate up in front,
Speaker 7: which was locked in the evening, and I seized my
Speaker 7: vigils about twenty twenty. No, it is not particularly stressful
Speaker 7: about Lincoln's Cemetery other than it being the place where
Speaker 7: Anastasia died. A stressful thing for me is being forced
Speaker 7: to relive this trauma over and over again every time
Speaker 7: FBC makes another attempt to spring case and then inevitably
Speaker 7: drags Anastasia's family into it.
Speaker 1: Patrick continues with I am usually.
Speaker 7: The firewall between the girls in FBC's annex, but even
Speaker 7: then they were all forced to go through this again.
Speaker 7: In my first email to you, I made the remark
Speaker 7: i'll quoted he killed her more than a quarter century ago.
Speaker 7: He killed her yesterday, He will kill her tomorrow.
Speaker 5: This is what I mean.
Speaker 7: They keep dredging this up, putting new spin on all lies,
Speaker 7: and he keeps killing her again and again and again.
Speaker 7: And having to again read the lies that Betsio and
Speaker 7: surreptitiously told police twenty seven years ago, and have to
Speaker 7: defend myself again from attacks from beyond the grave. Tends
Speaker 7: to put a hard knot of anger in my stomach.
Speaker 7: Understand I do not directly blame you for this I
Speaker 7: assume you were brought in by the O'Briens. Usually everyone
Speaker 7: is recruited by FBC, if not Evelyn Case herself. But
Speaker 7: I wonder why you deem it of such importance.
Speaker 1: Patrick closes one of his emails with quote, I only
Speaker 1: looked at a single one of your podcasts to get
Speaker 1: a feel for your style, But I do not know
Speaker 1: if in all of them so far you have found
Speaker 1: the real killer to be the one already in prison.
Speaker 1: Back to Sean and Quinn in Lincoln Cemetery, standing on
Speaker 1: the spot, what do you two feel?
Speaker 10: I've had different feelings over the years. I've thought that
Speaker 10: if you wanted to end your own life, that this
Speaker 10: is a beautiful, tranquil spot that you might choose to
Speaker 10: do that. I've also thought that, you know, a young
Speaker 10: person wanting to come and you know, talk with the
Speaker 10: boyfriend or girlfriend and you know, make out, you know,
Speaker 10: like kids do, that this would be a good place
Speaker 10: for that. It does not seem to me like a
Speaker 10: place you'd bring someone to kill them if that was
Speaker 10: year intent. It is isolated, But I just don't know.
Speaker 10: You know, all of that is just speculation. Did she
Speaker 10: get here still a big question for us. We know
Speaker 10: that Byron and Justin did not drive her here because
Speaker 10: it just doesn't fit all the other things we know
Speaker 10: about what they did and where they went that evening.
Speaker 10: There just isn't any evidence that they ever were. The
Speaker 10: only word on that was Kelly Moffett.
Speaker 9: I don't think Kelly was ever here. I don't think
Speaker 9: Byron or Kelly or Justin ever made it into the cemetery.
Speaker 9: And I don't think Kelly ever came here until she
Speaker 9: was brought here by members of the Jackson County Sheriff's Department.
Speaker 9: I think the first time Kelly moffittt saw this cemetery
Speaker 9: was the first time she was brought here by Kilgore.
Speaker 1: I feel very sad here.
Speaker 9: Yeah, first time it came, I brought flowers. It just
Speaker 9: felt like the right thing to do. You know, this
Speaker 9: is still a spot where someone died and you know,
Speaker 9: a pretty remarkable young person.
Speaker 10: And yeah, yeah, that's the part of this case. It
Speaker 10: gets to me is that we have access to so
Speaker 10: much of who Anastasia is because we have her letters,
Speaker 10: notes to friends, we have poetry that she's written. She
Speaker 10: was a bright, empathetic, loving young woman, and it's really
Speaker 10: sad yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very sad. I know this episode is a lot.
Speaker 1: You might need to listen to it again, maybe all
Speaker 1: the episodes for that matter. And I told you from
Speaker 1: the very beginning this story has me pulling my hair out.
Speaker 1: Although there are many people who believe there are no
Speaker 1: unanswered questions Kelly watched Byron kill Anastasia and that's the
Speaker 1: end of it, there are still others who believe this
Speaker 1: is not an open and shut case. Did Anastasia go
Speaker 1: home and change her clothes? Byron's legal team thinks she did,
Speaker 1: so does Patrick rock Bob used to think that. Now
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to say. If Anastasia did go home,
Speaker 1: how did she get there, what happened while she was there,
Speaker 1: and how did she make it back out to Lincoln Cemetery.
Speaker 1: How is it that Anastasia was found in the same
Speaker 1: clothes she was seen leaving the house in when Don
Speaker 1: Wright says she had something on completely different? How is
Speaker 1: it that Anastasia was found in a clean pad and underwear?
Speaker 1: What time did people see her alive and what time
Speaker 1: was she killed? And how does logic play into any
Speaker 1: of this? If you're anything like me and our team,
Speaker 1: you have a million questions about this story, So we
Speaker 1: want to hear from you dm us on Instagram or
Speaker 1: email us at The Real Killer Podcast at gmail dot com,
Speaker 1: and hopefully we can answer your questions in future episodes.
Speaker 1: Next time on The Real Killer, he comes into.
Speaker 3: The room, he sets down, and we said, well, what
Speaker 3: did you think? And the first thing that said that
Speaker 3: everything that Kelly said after two thousand was a lie.
Speaker 1: Her story cannot be true. Are some of the key
Speaker 1: players starting to waiver on Byron's guilt.
Speaker 11: I would run into the judge and I said, Judge gent, well, Cap,
Speaker 11: you got a minute? And I just told him, I says, help.
Speaker 11: Byron didn't do this. And then one day he sent
Speaker 11: me a letter.
Speaker 1: What does it say?
Speaker 11: When we read it? It's a good one.
Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
Speaker 1: those of the individuals participating in the podcast. If you,
Speaker 1: or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis,
Speaker 1: please no help is available. Call or text nine eight eight,
Speaker 1: or chat online at the Suicide and Crisis Lifelines website
Speaker 1: at nine eight eight lifeline dot org. To see photos, maps,
Speaker 1: and documents related to this season's story, follow The Real
Speaker 1: Killer podcast on Instagram and at trk podcast on TikTok.
Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia,
Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Speaker 1: Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Editing
Speaker 1: and sound design by Cameron Taggi, mixed and mastered by
Speaker 1: Cameron Taggi. Production coordinator Andy Levine, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam
Speaker 1: studio engineer Graham Gibson. Voice acting by Art Garza. Legal
Speaker 1: counsel for AYR Media, Giannie Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartMedia,
Speaker 1: Maya Howard