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Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations

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Speaker 1: about suicide that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners.

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Speaker 1: If you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward

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Speaker 1: to the end of this episode to find out where

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Speaker 1: help is available. As Byron Case's legal team is working

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Speaker 1: to chip away at what got their client convicted back

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, they consider finding the cleaner

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Speaker 1: version of the June fifth tacited mission tape a strong start.

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Speaker 2: We've got the tape, which is a material mistake of

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Speaker 2: fact or fraud.

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Speaker 1: But what else do they have?

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Speaker 2: We have all this undisclosed evidence showing that Anastasia went

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Speaker 2: home and changed clothes.

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Speaker 1: Did Anastasia go home the night she was killed?

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Speaker 3: I think she got a ride or she walked home,

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Speaker 3: but I think she went home.

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Speaker 1: I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer. Episode nine

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Speaker 1: more questions than answers before we talk about whether or

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Speaker 1: not Anastasia possibly went home on the night of October

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Speaker 1: twenty second, nineteen ninety seven. There's someone who might be

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Speaker 1: able to shed some light on what happened when Byron

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Speaker 1: returned home that night. Knock knock, Hi, how are you

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Speaker 1: is it okay to come next? Okay? Thank you, Napoleon Perez.

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Speaker 1: He was dating Byron's mom, Evelyn Case and living with

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Speaker 1: them back in nineteen ninety seven. Hikay cat such a

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Speaker 1: lovely home. Napoleon's ever spoken before. Investigators never interviewed him

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Speaker 1: during the almost three years the case was open and unsolved. Today,

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Speaker 1: more than twenty seven years after the fact, Napoleon has

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Speaker 1: agreed to talk with me at his home in Kansas City.

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Speaker 1: I ask, for recording purposes, if we can go to

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Speaker 1: the quietest room in the house. Napoleon suggests a bedroom

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Speaker 1: a little atypical, but Napoleon seems harmless, and his wife

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Speaker 1: is watching TV not far away in the living room.

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Speaker 1: Napoleon is originally from Ecuador. In the mid nineties, he

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Speaker 1: was living in Chicago. He actually met Evelyn while traveling

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Speaker 1: in Europe and they hit it off right away. Napoleon

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Speaker 1: says he moved to Kansas City around nineteen ninety six

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Speaker 1: ninety seven. He and Evelyn married around two thousand and

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Speaker 1: one two thousand and two, and they divorced some years later.

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Speaker 1: I start off by asking Napoleon about his first impression

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Speaker 1: of Byron.

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Speaker 4: He was quiet, He was organized. That was I was

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Speaker 4: impressed here was everything was clean or unorganized. We don't

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Speaker 4: really talk too much because my English, they say, now

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Speaker 4: it's that great. But then I.

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Speaker 1: Then move on to asking what Napoleon remembers from the

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Speaker 1: night Anastasia was killed. So on October twenty second, nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety seven, and I realized it's decades ago now, But

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Speaker 1: you know, Byron goes out with Justin, Anastasia and Kelly

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Speaker 1: and comes home and Evelyn said that you two were

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Speaker 1: sitting on the sofa watching a movie when he came

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Speaker 1: home that night. Do you remember him coming home that night?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? He usually came say we even now, or go

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Speaker 4: straight to his room. He was in the computer. The

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Speaker 4: only thing I was remember so clear because I was

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Speaker 4: kind of mild because I usually was janitors or sleeping late.

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Speaker 4: He came early and Justin was calling him so many times,

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Speaker 4: says why don't answer the phone. He said, well, he

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Speaker 4: was sleeping. I talked to tomorrow and then the next

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Speaker 4: day he said, oh, just on his best friend. And

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Speaker 4: then I was feel bad because I was on the

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Speaker 4: English to answer the phone. Why don't answer the phone,

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Speaker 4: because he said I was tired. I don't want to

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Speaker 4: talk to him. Oh and nobody. I said, I talk

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Speaker 4: to tomorrow, and that was the last time because and

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Speaker 4: then I feel bad because.

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Speaker 1: Napoleon says, back then he was working as a janitor,

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Speaker 1: mostly the night shift, and the reason he remembers this

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Speaker 1: evening in particular is really because he remembers the next morning.

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Speaker 1: He remembers Justin calling early, getting annoyed that Byron didn't

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Speaker 1: want to answer the phone, then feeling awful after learning

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Speaker 1: Justin had taken his own life. I'm surprised to hear

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Speaker 1: Justin called multiple times that morning. It's the first time

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing this, knowing Byron usually slept late. Why would

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Speaker 1: Justin need to talk to Byron so desperately? Although maybe

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Speaker 1: Justin called once and the phone just rang and rang

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Speaker 1: and rang before Evelyn answered it. I email Evelyn about this,

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Speaker 1: and she says she remembers the phone rang only once.

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Speaker 1: She was at her desk at the time, so she

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Speaker 1: picked it up right away. Next, I asked Napoleon what

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Speaker 1: he remembers about Byron's demeanor when he got home the

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Speaker 1: night of the twenty seconds. Did he seem weird or

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Speaker 1: off or no?

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Speaker 4: I must see you've calmed. I don't really see anything.

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Speaker 1: That night, he like, I think, according to Evelyn, like

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Speaker 1: went through to the kitchen and then maybe just went

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Speaker 1: to his bedroom and was on the computer. Did you

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Speaker 1: hear him on the computer? You knew he was on

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Speaker 1: the computer?

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Speaker 4: He well, I mean were watching TV, but he was

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Speaker 4: always in the computer, he was.

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Speaker 1: Is there any possibility that Byron went back out that

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Speaker 1: night after you and Evelyn went to bed.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember that. I don't know. I usually got

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Speaker 4: the time go to better and go better and then

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Speaker 4: I don't know if he left or not.

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Speaker 1: Would you have heard him?

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Speaker 4: If I think so, it opened the or that door

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Speaker 4: is kind of squeeze, but yeah, that's quiet.

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Speaker 1: It was a squeaky door. Yes. Do you remember seeing

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Speaker 1: Byron after he found out that Anastasia had been killed?

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Speaker 1: Did he say anything? How did he act?

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Speaker 4: He was sad?

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Speaker 1: He was sad. Did Evelyn or Byron seem concerned that

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Speaker 1: he was talking with police?

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Speaker 4: No? Not at all.

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Speaker 1: Did investigators ever interview you?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 1: And you, I guess you didn't volunteer to go to

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Speaker 1: police and say.

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Speaker 4: At the same time and never asked me, well, I

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Speaker 4: say we because Byron evident and myself, which everything is okay,

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Speaker 4: so we not be nothing. I will worry about it.

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Speaker 1: But then after he was arrested, did you think maybe

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Speaker 1: I should go to the police and tell him I

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Speaker 1: saw on that night at.

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Speaker 4: The same time, what am I supported to say? Nobody

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Speaker 4: asking me, so I said, hey, I was there even

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Speaker 4: now and I could say I surprised recording.

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Speaker 1: And I said, you're surprised by Michael.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I remember clear everything happened with details. But then

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Speaker 4: but now it's I don't remember. I was bothering in

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Speaker 4: that time. That's all a.

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Speaker 1: Mom wants to believe the very best of their son.

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Speaker 1: Do you think Evelyn has like a blind spot when

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Speaker 1: it no.

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Speaker 4: That she is you know, we was a couple for

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Speaker 4: so many years that she's anguish. There's a matter who

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Speaker 4: is the person?

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Speaker 1: If Byron committed this crime, she would not have any problems.

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Speaker 4: No, I would even.

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Speaker 1: Know like going to police and saying, like, I know

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Speaker 1: my son.

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Speaker 4: Even though she was to me because I was that

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Speaker 4: said no, no, I believe No. He was so so

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Speaker 4: nice with my cats. He was there with your cats,

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Speaker 4: but they were so friendly, the animals. I don't think

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Speaker 4: he is mean or anything. No, I believe. If I'll

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Speaker 4: be honest, I don't think he did it. They crime

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Speaker 4: that night.

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Speaker 1: We next talk about the June fifth. We should shouldn't

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Speaker 1: talk about this call. Napoleon says. That week Kelly was

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Speaker 1: calling the house a lot.

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Speaker 4: Yes, oh yeah, that week she was crazy calling. She

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Speaker 4: was calling several days, two four days, and that we

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Speaker 4: and sometimes I'm here in the morning or the evening.

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Speaker 4: Some bider sleep, sometimes don't answer the phone or photo

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Speaker 4: volume and then said hello, it's Byron there says no,

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Speaker 4: it's not here. Sometimes yeah, he is here. There's Biron.

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Speaker 4: Somebody asked for Biro. Hey, Birom, somebody call you.

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Speaker 1: On June fifth, two thousand and one, around eleven thirty pm,

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Speaker 1: Byron finally answered Kelly. During that recorded call, Byron was

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Speaker 1: Byron living here?

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Speaker 4: Was he living here?

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Speaker 1: He was here?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was adjusted here this house here, Yes, who's

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Speaker 4: a disapartment? This room, this.

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Speaker 1: Room where we're recording your interview right now. This is

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Speaker 1: a room where he took the call from Kelly that night.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So after that call, did he have any feelings like,

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Speaker 1: oh shit, I just you know, might have gotten myself

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Speaker 1: in trouble.

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Speaker 4: Or not at all until he was more because he

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Speaker 4: was sick. But no, he was normal to me. And

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Speaker 4: then he one day he was arrested. I was surprised, why,

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Speaker 4: how when did.

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Speaker 1: You ever ask Byron after he was arrested did you

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Speaker 1: do this?

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Speaker 6: No?

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Speaker 4: I never really ask here. I don't need to ask him.

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Speaker 4: I believe.

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Speaker 1: Was he arrested here?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And this house this is where swat came through.

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Speaker 4: That is why evident don't want to be here. She

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Speaker 4: had about memories and then the two three days then

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Speaker 4: and the court that was the town we know. That

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Speaker 4: was the recording. That was the police give it to

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Speaker 4: and that was to me, in my opinion, that was

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Speaker 4: the one, says biskuilty.

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Speaker 1: You think the tape is what did him ins Yes.

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Speaker 1: I asked Napoleon how Byron's conviction and incarceration affected Evelyn.

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Speaker 4: She was, yeah, she was really sad. Trying to support her,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, she was a good person, good woman, wife,

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Speaker 4: and she had the son.

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Speaker 7: No.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how I say it, but she was

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Speaker 4: crying every day. I'm trying to but nothing we can do.

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Speaker 1: I see you getting emotional. It took a toll on her,

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Speaker 1: on you on the relationship.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, because she now was the same. That was

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Speaker 4: not the same. And like I said, I believed in Bio.

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Speaker 4: I'll never believe anybody. He can't kill anybody.

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Speaker 1: He's not capable of killing someone.

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Speaker 4: That's my belief. I believe it can to me.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, Evelyn has been hurting because her only son is

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Speaker 1: in prison for life and she believes he's innocent. I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine the constant pain and sadness Anastasia's family

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Speaker 1: feels with the loss they've suffered. So Napoleon is Byron's alibi,

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Speaker 1: but only if the murder happened after Byron got home.

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Speaker 1: Although Napoleon can't say for sure that Byron didn't go

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Speaker 1: back out that night, Kelly says the murder happened before

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Speaker 1: Byron got home. If that's what in fact happened, that

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Speaker 1: makes Napoleon as an alibi a moot point. Right now,

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about Anastasia and whether or not she went home.

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Speaker 1: You've heard it dozens of times already. Byron's lawyers believe

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Speaker 1: Anastasia got out of Justin's car at t Truman Roade

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Speaker 1: and the I four thirty five. Don Rand at the

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Speaker 1: Amico station said he saw her there and there was

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Speaker 1: also the father daughter at the Phillip sixty sixth station

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Speaker 1: who allegedly saw someone they thought might be Anastasia use

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Speaker 1: the payphone. If all of that is true, then what

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Speaker 1: happened next? Did Anastasia ever make it home that night?

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Speaker 1: It's an important question because her dad, Bob Whitbolesfugen, seemed

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Speaker 1: to think she did, and I believe it first comes

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Speaker 1: up on November twenty one, nineteen ninety seven, during a

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Speaker 1: conversation between Bob and Sergeant Gary Kilgore. Kilgore writes in

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Speaker 1: his report, quote mister Whitble's Fugen believes Anastasia returned to

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Speaker 1: his house after Justin picked her up. Mister Whitbles Vugen

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Speaker 1: believes that Anastasia returned to the house to change clothes

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Speaker 1: for the evening, and she must have been there between

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundred and nineteen thirty. That's military time for seven

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Speaker 1: and seven thirty. Kill Gore continues, quote, mister whipples Fugen

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Speaker 1: asked if we have been able to confirm this, and

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Speaker 1: I told him I had no indication from anyone that

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Speaker 1: they had went back to her house that evening. Bob

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Speaker 1: then writes emails to Sergeant Kilgore about this. The first

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Speaker 1: one is dated December thirtieth, nineteen ninety seven, so that's

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Speaker 1: a little more than two months after Anastasia's death. Bob

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Speaker 1: starts off by thanking Sergeant Kilgore for interviewing dairy queen

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Speaker 1: worker Don Wright and Mount Washington Cemetery caretaker Glenn Calliver.

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Speaker 1: He continues with quote, the time is just before eight pm,

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Speaker 1: after dark. Certainly, the fact that the clothing description differs

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Speaker 1: from the five thirty pm sightings indicates that she must

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Speaker 1: have returned to our house to change clothes, but with whom.

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Speaker 1: So that's Bob's first email about Anastasia possibly going home.

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Speaker 1: Bob writes another email a few days later, on January

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Speaker 1: Tewodeen ninety eight, subject line blue jeans. You heard about

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Speaker 1: this email in episode three Bob Wright's quote, I don't

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Speaker 1: remember if I ever told you. A couple of days

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Speaker 1: after her death, I opened the washing machine and inside

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Speaker 1: was a single pair of blue jeans. It was nothing unusual,

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Speaker 1: because I frequently do laundry and often found that the

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Speaker 1: girls had unfinished stuff in the wash. At the time,

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Speaker 1: it only served to remind me that she was gone

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Speaker 1: and life goes on. Then, after my talk with Glenn Cliver.

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Speaker 1: It served as an important fact that she had returned

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Speaker 1: to the house and in fact had time and thought

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Speaker 1: to put it in the wash. Also in the wash

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Speaker 1: basin in the basement, next to the washing machine was

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Speaker 1: a pair of her underwear soaking. Here's one of Byron's attorneys,

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Speaker 1: Nicole Gordon, So.

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Speaker 3: We know from what Don Wright told us that Don

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Speaker 3: said Anastatia was wearing socks, Birkenstock like style sandals, and

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Speaker 3: baggy blue jeans. Those aren't the clothes she was found in.

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Speaker 1: Anastasia was found in black jeans, black Doc Martin's shoes,

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Speaker 1: a gray shirt, and a tan corduroy jacket. So if

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Speaker 1: Bob found Anastasia's blue jeans and underwear clothes that seemed

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Speaker 1: to match what dairy Queen worker Don Wright said she

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Speaker 1: was wearing, that did Anastasia somehow go home and change?

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Speaker 1: I do wonder how well did Bob know Anastasia's clothes

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Speaker 1: and undergarments? How do we know the jeans and underwear

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Speaker 1: didn't belong to Anastasia's sister Francesca. It needs to be

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Speaker 1: said that Francesca has never wavered on what Anastasia was

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Speaker 1: wearing when she left the house for Mount Washington Cemetery

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Speaker 1: the afternoon of October twenty second, which was black jeans,

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Speaker 1: her black Doc Martin's shoes, and a tan coat, which

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Speaker 1: are the same clothes Anastasia was found in at Lincoln Cemetery.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk more about this in just a bit. Bob

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Speaker 1: then sends a third email to Sergeant Kilgore. This one's

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Speaker 1: dated January eleventh, nineteen ninety eight, and it comes with

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Speaker 1: a photo. We also mentioned this email in episode three,

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Speaker 1: subject line purse. Bob writes, quote, is this possibly the

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Speaker 1: purse that Don w said that Anastasia reportedly had at

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Speaker 1: the DQ? She said it wasn't over the shoulder one

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Speaker 1: just like this. Here's Nicole again.

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Speaker 3: Don also said that Anastata had a purse, which is

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Speaker 3: interesting because it was a unique purse. The purse had

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Speaker 3: a long strap and instead of being a square, it

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Speaker 3: was a rectangle purse, so it was short but wide.

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Speaker 1: Don Wright describes the purse to Sergeant Kilgore as quote

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Speaker 1: brown in color zipper top. The purse was nine to

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Speaker 1: ten inches long and eight two nine inches in height.

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Speaker 1: We've posted the photo of the purse on the Real

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Speaker 1: Killer podcast on Instagram. Does it look to you like

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Speaker 1: Anastasia's purse matches? Dawn writees description of what she said

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Speaker 1: Anastasia was carrying that night. Now we're talking about the purse.

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Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that Bob brings up Anastasia's billfold

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Speaker 1: before any of this. He mentions her bill fold to

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Ron Kellogg. On October twenty third, nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: the day Anastasia was found in Lincoln Cemetery, Bob says, quote,

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Speaker 1: she left her billfold here and driver's license and credit card.

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Speaker 1: By the way, a bill fold is a thinner wallet.

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Speaker 1: I wonder could the billfold be the same thing as

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Speaker 1: the purse. Then five days later, on October twenty eighth,

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Speaker 1: in Bob's recorded interview with Sergeant Kilgore, the bill fold

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Speaker 1: comes up again.

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Speaker 4: Say when you're.

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Speaker 6: Winning your hat and in a conversation about a station, no.

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Speaker 4: Francesca.

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Speaker 6: I looked in the living room and she was already

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Speaker 6: sitting at the computer terminal. I guess the kitchen light

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Speaker 6: was on, and the light to the stairway was on

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Speaker 6: up the stairs, and so I looked up in that direction,

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Speaker 6: and I think I saw my daughter's builhole lying on

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Speaker 6: the stairway rail there, and I remember picking it up

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Speaker 6: and running up the room, thinking, oh goodness, she's home.

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Speaker 6: And when I got up there, I looked around her room.

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Speaker 6: She wasn't there. Back down the hallway, didn't seem like

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Speaker 6: any other lights in the house were on. I said, look,

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Speaker 6: she's not home. Kind of disappointed. I was excited that

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Speaker 6: she was home and safe after the big ordeal that

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Speaker 6: I've been feeling, and.

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Speaker 4: She's nowhere to be found. I went down.

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Speaker 6: And I think I asked, Francesca, is Anastasia here?

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Speaker 8: I don't think so.

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Speaker 4: I just got home my style.

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Speaker 8: If I don't know.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: With all of this, could don Wright have been mistaken

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Speaker 1: in her description of what Anastasia was wearing, including the

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Speaker 1: purse she says Anastasia was carrying. Unfortunately, Kilgore never collected

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Speaker 1: the genes or purse slash billfold to show don Wright.

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Speaker 1: That might have cleared up some of this confusion. But

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Speaker 1: if don Wright was correct about Anastasia's clothes and purse

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Speaker 1: that night, might there be more to the story. Anastasia's father,

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Speaker 1: Bob Whitbolsfuchen, believed that on the night of October twenty second,

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Speaker 1: his daughter came home and changed her clothes. He said

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Speaker 1: he found her blue jeans in the washing machine and

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Speaker 1: a pair of her underwear. Soaking in a sink doesn't

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Speaker 1: make it fact because, as we know, Bob said a

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Speaker 1: lot of things that turned out to not be true.

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Speaker 1: But is there more evidence that says Anastasia did make

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Speaker 1: it home. Here's Byron's attorney, Nicole Gordon.

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Speaker 3: Anastasia started her period while she was out. We know

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Speaker 3: that because of what Don Wright told Sergeant Kilgore that

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Speaker 3: she needed a tampon and she didn't have one. We

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Speaker 3: know she used the tampon because she used the Dairy

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Speaker 3: Queen restroom was a private restroom. It wasn't open for public,

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Speaker 3: and when the manager or owner of Dairy Queen was

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Speaker 3: the owner used the bathroom after Anastasia. He sees the

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Speaker 3: tampon wrapper in the trash, and Anasta hadn't flushed the toilet,

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Speaker 3: so there was blood in the toilet as well, so

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Speaker 3: we know.

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Speaker 1: Here's Byron's investigator, Quinn O'Brien.

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Speaker 9: So we know that Anastasia is using a tampon when

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Speaker 9: she's picked up by Byron and Kelly and Justin. There

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Speaker 9: are two people on the team who have periods and

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Speaker 9: know a little something about it. So when we were

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Speaker 9: reading the autopsy report and found that she was in

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Speaker 9: a pad that was not soiled, and that her underwear

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Speaker 9: was also clean, we were like, wait a second, So

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Speaker 9: she's using a tampon, but she's found in the cemetery

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Speaker 9: with a pad and clean underwear, and that doesn't check out.

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Speaker 9: Gravity is going to make sure that that pad has

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Speaker 9: something on it. But the pad that she's found and

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Speaker 9: is clean, and so is her underwear, and I suspect

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Speaker 9: that on her old underwear there was probably some blood,

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Speaker 9: and in fact, what Bob finds in the laundry room

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Speaker 9: confirms this to me. Bob finds her underwear soaking in

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Speaker 9: the sink, which again anyone with a period knows. You

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Speaker 9: get a little blood on your underwear, you put it

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Speaker 9: in cold water for a little bit to soak. Bob

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Speaker 9: fines light colored jeans and when John Wright says that

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Speaker 9: she saw Anastasia, don Wright says that she was in

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Speaker 9: light colored jeans, she had to have gone home. If

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Speaker 9: she hadn't gone home, she would still be wearing a

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Speaker 9: tampon and there would be blood spotting on her underwear.

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Speaker 1: According to Anastasia's mother, Betsy Owens, her daughter had a

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Speaker 1: strong dislike for blood. Here she is talking about that

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Speaker 1: in her interview with Sergeant Kilbour.

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Speaker 8: An act of at ten plus. I knew that she

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Speaker 8: just doesn't like blood at all. We should just go

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Speaker 8: freak out. And she got a little cut from the

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Speaker 8: time she was a kid, and she didn't like menstal

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Speaker 8: periods because of waiting in that type of thing, and

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Speaker 8: she just does not like blood at all.

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Speaker 1: So, considering Anastasia's intense feelings about blood, would she have

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Speaker 1: made it a priority to go home and change her underwear,

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Speaker 1: her jeans and tampon or pad. It still doesn't answer

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Speaker 1: the question why was Anastasia found wearing a clean pad

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Speaker 1: and not a tampon if that's what don Wright gave her?

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Speaker 1: And I have another question, and it goes back to

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Speaker 1: what Quinn said about gravity. Let's say for the sake

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Speaker 1: of argument, Anastasia was given a pad not a tampon

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Speaker 1: at the Dairy Queen, then killed a short time after,

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Speaker 1: like Kelly said she was. That would be less time

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Speaker 1: for gravity to take hold and less time for any

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Speaker 1: blood to show up on the pad. So maybe she

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Speaker 1: could have died with a clean pad. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what to make of the clean underwear part of this,

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Speaker 1: But if Anastasia had been given a tampon and she

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Speaker 1: went home to change from a tampon to a pad

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Speaker 1: and was killed later that night, wouldn't that mean there's

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Speaker 1: more time for gravity to take over and more time

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Speaker 1: for blood to end up on the pad. Although you know,

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Speaker 1: periods are weird, like you can go from bleeding to

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Speaker 1: not to back to bleeding. Maybe Anastasia was killed during

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Speaker 1: one of those breaks in the bleeding. Also, I still

401
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: really wonder did Don Write really give Anastasia a tampon

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00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: or did she give her a pad? I asked Nicole

403
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Speaker 1: about that, because Don did change her story. Don first

404
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 1: says it was a pad. Then a trial she says

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Speaker 1: it was a tampon.

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Speaker 3: Well, that she was found wearing an unsoiled pad, and

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Speaker 3: Don says that she gave Anna Stasia a tampon. Don

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Speaker 3: knows that it was a tampon because according to her,

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Speaker 3: that's all she used since she was twelve. She wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have given her a pad, and so that's that's very

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Speaker 3: important fact. It means that Anastesa could not have gone

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Speaker 3: directly from dairy Queen to where she was found, and

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Speaker 3: that Kelly's stories a lie.

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Speaker 1: So let me break this down for you. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety seven, Don Wright tells Sergeant Kilgore she gave Anastasia

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Speaker 1: a pad. Actually, she says she didn't have anything with her,

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Speaker 1: so she called her husband, who brought a pad to

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Speaker 1: the dairy Queen. Then, at trial, almost five years later,

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Speaker 1: she says it was actually a tampon she gave Anastasia.

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Speaker 1: When prosecutor Teresa Crayon cross examines Don about this discrepancy,

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Speaker 1: don says, quote, it was a tampon, and I know

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Speaker 1: I told that guy that I just couldn't think of

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Speaker 1: a polite name. Don finally says she knows it was

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Speaker 1: a tampon because since she was thirteen or fourteen, she's

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Speaker 1: used nothing but a tampon. Here's Byron's attorney, Brian Russell.

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Speaker 2: When it came to the tampon and the pad stuff,

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Speaker 2: I just kept thinking, like, well she made you know,

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Speaker 2: don Wright must have made a mistake, or you know,

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Speaker 2: she was mixed up about what she gave Anastasia. And

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Speaker 2: for a while I was not. I didn't believe the

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Speaker 2: she went home theory and It was only when Quinn

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Speaker 2: and Nicole and Amanda are paralegal were like, no, women

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Speaker 2: know what product they use, She's not gonna mistake that.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I'm a guy. I've never had a period,

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Speaker 2: and so having that perspective and listening to it really did.

436
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: I mean, that was a big part of breaking this

437
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 2: open and realizing, well, shoot, she went home just like

438
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 2: everyone said. And then looking at those emails where Bob

439
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: says I found her blue jeans in the washing machine.

440
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: I found a pair of her underwear soaking in the

441
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: utility sync those that's what she was wearing at Dairy Queen.

442
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: And if those made it home, that means she went home.

443
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: And if she went home, Byron didn't do it.

444
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: And so sadly, Don Wright passed away in twenty twenty one.

445
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: The only other person who can answer the tampon versus

446
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: pad question is Don Wright's husband from that time. He's

447
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: the one who actually brought whatever it was to the

448
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: Dairy Queen. I get him on the phone, and it

449
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: is a major understatement to say he was annoyed by

450
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: my call and my questions. He remembers that Don worked

451
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: at the Dairy Queen and that's about it. We don't

452
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: know if Anastasia preferred a tampon over a pad, but

453
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: we do know from her mother's police interview that she

454
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: hated the sight of blood. On November fifth, nineteen ninety seven,

455
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: when Kilgore goes to the Whitbol's Fugen house and looks

456
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: in Anastasia's room, he writes in his report, quote inside

457
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: a box setting on the floor, I observed several items.

458
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: Included were numerous unused tampons. I asked mister Whitpble's Fugen

459
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 1: if these belonged to Anastasia, and he stated they did so.

460
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: Did she prefer tampon's or pads? Maybe what don Wright

461
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: first told kil Gore is true, that she gave Anastasia

462
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: a pad, and a pad is what she was found

463
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: dead in, which could mean that Anastasia went right from

464
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: the Dairy Queen to Mount Washington Cemetery to being killed

465
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: in Lincoln Cemetery, like Kelly said. At any rate, it

466
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: seems Sergeant Kilgore didn't spend any time investigating the genes,

467
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: the underwear, the purse, the pad versus tampon thing, or

468
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: whether or not Anastasia might have gone home here's Quinn again.

469
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 9: We looked at Bob's emails, we looked at photographs from

470
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 9: the crime scene. We looked at the timeline starting with

471
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 9: don Wright's statements to the police and her testimony and

472
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 9: Don Rand's statements to the police, and we created a

473
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 9: timeline what we think is a much more accurate timeline,

474
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 9: and we found ourselves agreeing with Bob. We think Anastasia

475
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 9: went home that night. I think that dismissing things out

476
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 9: of hand, even from people that you don't believe have credibility,

477
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 9: you need to investigate. And I really think that Bob's

478
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 9: harassment of the clerks, and Bob's harassment of Detective kill

479
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 9: Gore and of the desk sergeants at Jackson County really

480
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 9: caused them to dismiss everything he said out of hand.

481
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 9: Do I trust everything Bob what Bill Sveegan says, Absolutely not?

482
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 9: Absolutely not. Do I think there's some truth in some

483
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 9: of what he said? Yes, because there are things in

484
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 9: the world and other people in the world who corroborate

485
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 9: what he said. When I have someone else telling me

486
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 9: the same story, or when I have physical evidence that

487
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 9: matches what he said, I'm going to take it more seriously.

488
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: In one of my few calls with Bob, I try

489
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: to ask him about this. Bob, tell me about you

490
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: wrote to kill Gore and shared that you had found

491
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: Anastasia's jeans and underwear at the house. Can you tell

492
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: me about that?

493
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 10: Yeah, No, I'm going to go there.

494
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: Not going to go there now now I know I'm

495
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: talking about it, Okay.

496
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 2: Was not?

497
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 10: Was not part of the part of the scenario that way,

498
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 10: Taylor or.

499
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: M yes, nom okay. So Bob doesn't want to talk

500
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: about it. There was something else I would have liked

501
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: to ask him. It has to do with something that

502
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: was found at his house, on Anastasia's bed. Actually, here's

503
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: Byron's attorney, Sean O'Brien.

504
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 4: See.

505
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 10: The other curious fact that nobody has talked about is

506
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 10: that on Anastasia's bed in the middle of it is

507
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 10: a stun gun. But nobody knows how did he get there,

508
00:30:58,520 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 10: why was it there?

509
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: That's right. When Sergeant Ron Kellogg goes to the Whipple's

510
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: Fugen house on October twenty third to talk with Bob

511
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: and his wife Diane, he finds a stun gun believed

512
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: to be Anastasia's, on her bed, Sergeant's Kilgore and Kellogg

513
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: asked Kelly Moffett about it in her first interview the

514
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: day after Anastasia's body was found.

515
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 7: Gun.

516
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 6: You know what I'm talking about, like a taser type

517
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 6: of thing.

518
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, Now, well Byron had one him.

519
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 6: And Justin like always bought like super little toys.

520
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 4: But he doesn't have my fevors hit. They have like

521
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 4: number three hundred dollars.

522
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 6: I never like looked at it closely.

523
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 4: What is that one on a bay?

524
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 8: It might have I'm not sure it might have been

525
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,959
Speaker 8: Justin him and Byron bought one.

526
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: I don't think Byron has this anymore, but Justin just

527
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: had all kinds of like real stuff. So Kelly says

528
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: she's not sure if Anastasia had a stun gun, but

529
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: she believes Byron and Justine at least at some point.

530
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: In Tara McDowell's February third, nineteen ninety eight interview, remember

531
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: Tara is part of that friend group, she is also

532
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: asked about the stun gun. I don't know the audio

533
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: for her interview, but I'll tell you what she says

534
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: because I have the transcript, which is that Anastasia did

535
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: own a stun gun, but she only carried it with

536
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: her on a few occasions. Tara says Byron had a

537
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: stun gun too. Tara then tells a troubling story that

538
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: one day they wanted to see how the stun gun

539
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: worked and quote, they didn't want to shock one of

540
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: the three of themselves. Not sure exactly who the three

541
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: she's referring to are, but Tara says, they quote tased

542
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: a drunk guy behind Mill Creek down in Westport. They

543
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: tased him. He was just sitting there on the steps,

544
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: and they walked up and stuck it to his neck,

545
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: held it there for a minute, then pulled it away.

546
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: Tara said, so she didn't think Anastasia's stun gun was

547
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: that powerful, and the guy was drunk, so she wasn't

548
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: sure it even phazed the guy anyway. Bob even talks

549
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: about the stun gun found on Anastasia's bed in his

550
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: interview with Kilgore back in November of nineteen ninety nine.

551
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 6: The crime You asked me once if I had any

552
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 6: physical evidence from the crime scene, and I said no

553
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 6: at that time, and I started thinking, well, what possibly

554
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 6: could have been considered the crime scene? Since I'm assuming

555
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 6: it's the Lincoln Cemetery, at least by some scenarios. I'm thinking, okay,

556
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 6: I can reasonably suspect that my daughter was at my

557
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 6: home that evening, and that at my home that evening

558
00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 6: or the next day, I discovered the stun gun, and

559
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 6: unfortunately that was never gathered as information as evidence, but

560
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 6: I think it may lead to a possible scenario the

561
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 6: confirmation thereof Unfortunately, mister Kellogg, who came out to the house,

562
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 6: handled that item and destroyed any possibility for that to

563
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 6: be used with fingerprint evidence.

564
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: The stun gun isn't taken into evidence, and from what

565
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: I can tell, the Whippel's Fugen home is not searched

566
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: until November fifth, nineteen ninety seven, fourteen days after Anastasia

567
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: was murdered. Even at that time, the stun gun isn't

568
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: taken into evidence. So why was Anastasia's stun gun out

569
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: on her bed? What if anything happened at the house,

570
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: And again, if she really did go home, how did

571
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 1: she get there? Did she get a ride from someone

572
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: or did she walk? Remember Bob's wife, Diane allegedly said

573
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: that the cold back would do her good. But Diane

574
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: would have been talking about Anastasia walking the three plus

575
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: miles home around five point thirty pm. According to everyone

576
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: else who saw Anastasia that night, that walk home after

577
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: she allegedly got out of Justin's car would have happened

578
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: much later than that. Starting route to North Delaware Avenue, well,

579
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: I'm in Kansas City. I want to see what the

580
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: roughly three and a half mile walk from Truman Road

581
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: and the I four thirty five to Anastasia's house would

582
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: have been like. However, I don't walk it. I drive

583
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: it multiple times. According to Google Maps, driving it takes

584
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: about eight minutes. It says it would take an hour

585
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: and twenty four minutes to walk it. And remember that night,

586
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: Anastasia was either wearing Doc Martin's shoes or Birkenstock sandals

587
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: with socks. Can you imagine walking ninety minutes in slides

588
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: and socks. I record the early part of the drive,

589
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: which I will put on the Real Killer Podcast Instagram page. Okay, So,

590
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: starting out, Truman Road is a four lane road, two

591
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: lanes going each way, and there are no sidewalks for

592
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: a long stretch of it. Today there's a fireworks store

593
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: where in nineteen ninety seven, the Amico station used to

594
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: be the old Phillip sixty sixth station. Next door is

595
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: still a gas station, but with a different name, Erotic City.

596
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: The adult bookstore is still there. All of that is

597
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: on my right A short way up on Truman Road.

598
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: On my left is where an entrance to Lincoln's Cemetery

599
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: used to be. Today, that entrance is closed. As I

600
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: continue on, there are woods on both sides of Truman Road.

601
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: Then there's a bridge at the top of the hill.

602
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: That road is Blue Ridge Boulevard, where to the left

603
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: is the main entrance to Lincoln Cemetery. To the right

604
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: of that bridge is the Cimarron Apartments. That's where Bob

605
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 1: said he heard that eleven thirty pm gunshot come from

606
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: when he was standing nearby at Mount Washington Cemetery. As

607
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: I continue driving towards Anastasia's house, there are several homes, businesses,

608
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: high school, and in the distance you can see the

609
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: shiny spire of the Independence Mormon Temple. I drive a

610
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 1: bit longer than I come upon the National Historic Site,

611
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: the Truman Home, where Harry and best Truman lived after

612
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: they married in nineteen nineteen. It was their summer white

613
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: house while Harry Truman was president, and it's where they

614
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: lived after leaving Washington through Harry Truman's death in nineteen

615
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: seventy two. Just down the street from the Truman home

616
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 1: is where Anastasia lived. It's a lovely block with big

617
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: houses and mature trees. As I pass by her beautiful home,

618
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: I feel a wave of melancholy. I can't help but

619
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: think of what her life could have been. I can't

620
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: help but think of the sadness that must have filled

621
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: that house in the years after she died. I have

622
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: to say, And I realize I'm not Anastasia, and this

623
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: is pure speculation on my part, but after just driving

624
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,959
Speaker 1: the route, I can't imagine walking it after dark, even

625
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,439
Speaker 1: if I were super mad at my boyfriend, I kind

626
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: of just don't think that happened. And remember, Anastasia was

627
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: waiting for a ride to go to Mount Washington Cemetery

628
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 1: that day. If she wasn't willing to walk there, why

629
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: would she be okay with walking home. So maybe Anastasia

630
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: got a ride, or maybe what Kelly said was true,

631
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: Anastasia never made it home. If Anastasia made it home

632
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: that night, whether it was by car or on foot,

633
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: is still unknown. But if she did, there's almost a

634
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: bigger question still lingering. Here's Attorney Sean O'Brien.

635
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 10: How did she get back out to the cemetery. I

636
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 10: do not know, We don't know. That's a non answered.

637
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: Well, I'm in the area. I drive through Mount Washington Cemetery,

638
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: I go across the street to where the Dairy Queen

639
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: used to be, and of course I go to Lincoln Cemetery.

640
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: On this particular day, I asked Sean and his daughter,

641
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: investigator Quinn O'Brien, to meet me there. So here we

642
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: are at Lincoln Cemetery. Can you just sort of can

643
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: we go in? Yeah?

644
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 9: Bet you bet.

645
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 10: The gates are open today so that we could actually

646
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 10: drive in.

647
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 9: The really nice marble sign. Right there is brand new

648
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 9: Lincoln's Cemetery sign over there. I was not here in

649
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 9: the nineties.

650
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: We enter the main gate, which is the only entrance

651
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: that exists day, and walk the long, narrow road.

652
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 9: Most of the headstones here are flat. It really doesn't

653
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 9: look like a cemetery until you get inside.

654
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 10: This is a historically black cemetery. This was a black

655
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 10: neighborhood that neither city wanted, and so it's this odd

656
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 10: little bubble in between two cities that is not part

657
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 10: of a city. It's a vestige of racism in city government.

658
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 10: Soon we'll see Charlie Parker's grave. He is buried here,

659
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 10: and several Negro Leagues baseball players are buried here, So

660
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 10: it's really a historic cemetery.

661
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: It is, but Charlie Parker, the famous jazz musician and composer,

662
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: was buried at Lincoln Cemetery in nineteen fifty five.

663
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 10: You know, the other thing about this cemetery is how

664
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 10: isolated it is.

665
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 5: Even though it is in the city.

666
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 10: The only traffic you would see is on this road,

667
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 10: Blue Ridge cut Off, that goes north and south along

668
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 10: the eastern boundary of the cemetery. When you look south,

669
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 10: there's thick woods and at the bottom of the hill,

670
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 10: but you can't see it from here is Truman Road.

671
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 5: We've been out.

672
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 10: Here in the dark, and it is dark. And then

673
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 10: looking to the north, it's even more heavily wooded, and

674
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 10: it's probably half a mile to three quarters of a

675
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 10: mile before you would see the next house to the

676
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 10: north of here. So on all four sides it's surrounded

677
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 10: by woods.

678
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 9: There are no lights here at all.

679
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: No light poles.

680
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 10: Right, no sources of ground lights.

681
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 9: We're just about to the spot where Anastasia was found.

682
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 9: There's a loop at the top of the hill where

683
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 9: the roads come together, the one that used to come

684
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 9: up from Truman Road that's no longer passable, and the

685
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 9: one that we came in on, just off Blue Ridge,

686
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 9: and they come together in a place and form a

687
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 9: little grass triangle. And it's here at the very top

688
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 9: of this hill, in this little grass triangle that Anastasia

689
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 9: was found.

690
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 10: Her head was right here on the edge of the

691
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 10: grassy part of this small triangle of grass, and her

692
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 10: feet were pointing to the north. And so this is

693
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 10: where this is where Anastasia died.

694
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 9: And this is where Bob was standing when Epperson drove

695
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 9: up and found him.

696
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there in the last episode we talked a

697
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: lot about how Deputy David Epperson found Bob at the

698
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: exact spot where Anastasia died. Eperson found it significant enough

699
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: that he wrote a lengthy report about it. Yeah, and

700
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: there there was no caution tape up that day when

701
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: Bob came.

702
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 10: No, all that had been removed.

703
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: I'm just playing Devil's advocate. Had the news crews come

704
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: in and shown on the news where her body was found.

705
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 10: There really wasn't anything that would have told him this

706
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 10: was the spot. You know, she was clearly deceased when

707
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 10: she was found, so there weren't like bandages or things

708
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 10: from you know that ambulance crews or paramedics would often

709
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 10: leave behind, no clues like that at all. There had

710
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 10: been some rain, I think after and so even any

711
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 10: blood that you know, frankly, some soaked into the ground,

712
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 10: but the rain would have taken it away. So he

713
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,479
Speaker 10: came in the entrance that we just walked down, and

714
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 10: Eperson was surprised to see Whitbills Fugen standing right here.

715
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 10: Bulsfugen was startled when he saw Eperson, and so he

716
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 10: said something like, is this about the right place?

717
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 5: You know?

718
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 10: And so yeah, I mean when you look at the

719
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 10: vastness of this, the fact that he would notice stop

720
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 10: right here, I find kind of suspicious, frankly.

721
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: So.

722
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 9: Eperson, right, Yeah, A person found it suspicious enough to

723
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 9: record it in great detail.

724
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: Where was the tree that had the glass and paint chips?

725
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 10: Right, so from where we're standing, you see to the

726
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 10: left of the lane there is a tree there. There

727
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 10: was also a tree to the right of the lane

728
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 10: a little closer to us from this, but they measured

729
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 10: about about eighty feet to the east of here, there

730
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 10: was a tree that had damage on the bark. There

731
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 10: had been paint transfer from the car to the tree,

732
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 10: and there was headlight glass and colored glass at the

733
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 10: trunk of the tree. So that was about eighty feet

734
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 10: directly east of where we're standing.

735
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: And I know I've asked Quinn this, but do we

736
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: know what color the paint chips were.

737
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 10: We don't know what color the paint chips were. We

738
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 10: have the regional crime lab logs, and while there is

739
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 10: a report that it was discovered the paint chips were collected,

740
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 10: the glass was collected, we don't have it logged into

741
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 10: the crime lab, and we don't have it logged into

742
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 10: the property room.

743
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: And no description is given.

744
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 10: No description of the color of the paint.

745
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 1: We do know again, Bob's car was never processed. Neither

746
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: was Byron's. Justin's car was processed and then excluded.

747
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 10: I think that if Bob did what he told Eperson

748
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 10: that he did driving up and down Truman Road to

749
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 10: see where that shot came from, that he felt in

750
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 10: his heart at eleven thirty pm on October twenty second,

751
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 10: was the shot that took his daughter's life. I don't

752
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 10: know if he's right about that or not, but he

753
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 10: believed that. And if you believe that, he drove up

754
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 10: and down Truman Road like he said, he'd have found

755
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 10: the Truman Road entrance.

756
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: Was there a sign for Lincoln Cemetery back then at

757
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: that north entrance?

758
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 2: I don't know.

759
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 10: I don't know. I don't know if there was.

760
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 1: On October twenty second, twenty twenty two, which was the

761
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: twenty fifth anniversary of Anastasia's death, Byron's legal team and

762
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: a professional photographer went to Lincoln Cemetery to document what

763
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: the light and visibility are at various stages of sunset.

764
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,959
Speaker 1: I'm going to post those photos on Instagram. Byron's team

765
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: says they did this because they believe Anastasia was killed

766
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: later than what Kelly testified to. Kelly said in regard

767
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: to seeing Anastasia on the ground after she was shot, quote,

768
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: it was light enough for me to be able to see.

769
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: Byron's legal team says, because there are no lights in

770
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: Lincoln Cemetery in order for Kelly to have seen the

771
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: murder take place, it would have had to have happened

772
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 1: between seven and seven fifteen pm. And they say that's

773
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: impossible because Don Wright said Anastasia was at the Dairy

774
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: Queen between eight and nine thirty pm. Her boss, Suleiman

775
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: Saliz said she was there from seven seven thirty to

776
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: about eight thirty or nine. Don Rand at the Ambuko

777
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 1: station said he saw Anastasia get out of the car

778
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,959
Speaker 1: on Truman Road around eight thirty. If those three saw

779
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 1: Anastasia alive as late as eight thirty nine, then how

780
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: could Kelly have seen her killed before making it home

781
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 1: for her curfew at nine pm? Because the only thing

782
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: we know for sure is that Kelly made at home

783
00:47:55,360 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 1: to Kansas for her curfew around nine pm. Now, Glenn Caliver,

784
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 1: the Mount Washington Cemetery caretaker, originally told investigators around seven

785
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: oh five pm he saw car lights going towards the

786
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: Nelson Mausoleum. That turned out to be the car Anastasia, Justin,

787
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: Byron and Kelly were in. They left soon after. At trial,

788
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: mister Cliver changed his story to say that he saw

789
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: them at nine pm. Regardless if what mister Cliver said

790
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: in his original statement is true that he saw them

791
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: around seven oh five pm. And if what Kelly said

792
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: is true that after they were ushered out of Mount

793
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: Washington Cemetery they went to Lincoln Cemetery where Byron killed Anastasia,

794
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 1: doesn't that make sense in terms of light and time?

795
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: Maybe Don Wright, Suleiman Slid and Don Rand were mistaken

796
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: about what time they saw Anastasia, or in Don Rand's case,

797
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: that he saw Anastasia at all. And one more quick thing,

798
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: call Over said he saw headlights going towards the Nelson Mausoleum.

799
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: That means Justin had his lights on right Cultin Justin's

800
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: headlights have helped illuminate the scene for Kelly at Lincoln Cemetery.

801
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: While I'm there with Shawn and Quinn, I ask if

802
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: there was anyone in Anastasia's circle familiar with Lincoln Cemetery.

803
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: According to them, just Patrick Rock, Anastasia and Bob's close.

804
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 10: Friend Pat Rock knew about Lincoln Cemetery because his one

805
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 10: of his hobbies is Negro League's baseball history. And we

806
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 10: saw on a website, you know, thanking him for identifying

807
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 10: the graves of four Negro Leagues baseball players who are

808
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 10: buried here. And he made that find before Anastasia died.

809
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 9: In nineteen ninety five. That you made that find. One

810
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 9: of the headstones is just right over there. You can

811
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 9: see it from here in that b one row.

812
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: Can we walk over there?

813
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, sure, Yeah. So it was Fred Hicks.

814
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 1: Yep, he's a.

815
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 9: Negro League ballplayer. Yeah, this is one of the headstones

816
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 9: that Pat Rock identified back in nineteen ninety five. You know,

817
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 9: he was a historian of the Negro leagues. We have

818
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 9: our Negro League Baseball Museum here in Kansas City. Yeah,

819
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 9: Fred Hicks eighteen eighty eight to nineteen fifty.

820
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 5: Wow, we go right there, there's Fred.

821
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,439
Speaker 9: Hicks, and then there's at least one other Negro league

822
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 9: ballplayer buried close by. But I think we're about, I

823
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 9: don't know, fifty sixty feet from where Anastasia died, probably sixty.

824
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just to be clear, Pat Rock was never

825
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 1: interviewed by police, by investigators in an official set like

826
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 1: there were emails, there were you know, there was correspondence

827
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: and there were conversations, but he never sat down for

828
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: an inner.

829
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 10: No. And now Bob Whitbolls Fugen mentioned Pat. Bob and

830
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 10: Pat were good friends. When Bob recently got his probation

831
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 10: revoked and was sent to prison. Pat Rock was there

832
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 10: in the courtroom and took Bob's wallet and keys and

833
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 10: personal property, so we know they are and they were

834
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 10: very good friends. And Bob did tell Detective Killgre that

835
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 10: if Anastasia were going to call anybody, it would be

836
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 10: Pat Rock, because apparently they were close.

837
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 9: But that would have been something hard to look up

838
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 9: because the morning after Anastasia's body was found, Pat Rock

839
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 9: changed his phone number.

840
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 10: So one of the questions we're asking was Pat Rock

841
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 10: her ride home.

842
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: Although we talked about Patrick Rock and all of that

843
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: in the last episode, I wonder did Sergeant Kilgore write

844
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: anything substantial about Patrick Rock in any of his reports

845
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: he did. Here is what Kilgore writes in his report

846
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: after talking with Bob on November twenty one, nineteen ninety seven,

847
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: quote mister whipples Fugen thanked me for talking to Patrick

848
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: Rock and for not disclosing any information about the case

849
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 1: to him. Mister whipples Fugen then asked me if Rock

850
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 1: had an alibi for that evening. I told mister whitbles

851
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 1: Fugen that I had not inquired about his whereabouts of

852
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: that evening. Mister Whipples fugen stated Rock was a contact

853
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: that Anastasia would call if no other ride was available.

854
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: Mister whipples fugen stated Rock has had in the past

855
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: a pager and Anastasia knew the number by heart. I

856
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: asked mister Whipple's fugen if he suspected Patrick Rock. Mister

857
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: Whipple's fugen stated he would suspect that Rock had contact

858
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 1: with Anastasia sometime that night if she needed a ride

859
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: or had to get to Kansas, Rock may have offered

860
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 1: to take her to Justin's apartment or somewhere else. Here's

861
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: Quinn again.

862
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 9: I don't know if that was Bob's way of phishing

863
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 9: for more information to see if the Jackson County Sheriff

864
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 9: had any evidence that Pat Rock was at the scene.

865
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 9: It could have also been Bob trying to throw his

866
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 9: best friend under the bos so that, you know, whatever

867
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 9: his involvement or culpability might be, the attention would be

868
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 9: shifted to Pat instead of him.

869
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 1: Once Patrick and I got past him and Kelly accusing

870
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: me of harassing Kelly's mom, Deborah Moffatt, which we talked

871
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: about in the last episode, I sent Patrick some questions

872
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 1: and he responded. Over the course of several emails. By

873
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: the way, Patrick is quite loquacious, so some of his

874
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 1: responses are edited for time. I start with some questions

875
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: about Anastasia and whether or not Patrick thinks she went

876
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,240
Speaker 1: home that night. His responses are read by an actor.

877
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 7: All of which I am certain is that Anastasia changed

878
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 7: her clothes and feminine protection and put her genes in

879
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 7: underwear in the washing machine. Just my opinion, but I

880
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 7: believe that while Case had earlier abandoned his idea of

881
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 7: killing her, hence justin not bothering to pick her up

882
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 7: at Mount Washington, he undeniably decided at that time to

883
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 7: kill her and suggested they go back to Mount Washington

884
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 7: to talk. I believe they went from the DQ straight

885
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 7: to her house and then to the cemeteries.

886
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: I then ask why didn't Kelly say they went to

887
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,240
Speaker 1: Anastasia's house if that's in fact what happened.

888
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 7: I believe it was because Case had rehearsed her to

889
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 7: tell one story to the police, and he omitted the

890
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 7: detour to Anastasia's house because it would have raised unanswerable questions.

891
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 7: It was just four days past her fifteenth birthday when

892
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 7: she saw the murderer and it was easily manipulated by Case.

893
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 7: I asked her about it earlier this year, and she

894
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 7: could not remember twenty five plus years later whether it

895
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 7: happened or not, since she had been made to tell

896
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 7: the same story for two years. D Q Mount Washington

897
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 7: around the Truman Road, Anastasia exits to police and additional

898
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 7: details were purged to keep the alib by as simple

899
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 7: as possible. When she finally broke down and confessed, no

900
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 7: one asked about it and it was not in her

901
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 7: memory by then. We have evidence that Anastasia was at

902
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 7: home closed in the wash, so I believe that they

903
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,720
Speaker 7: did come to Anastasia's home, and I believe that Kelly

904
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 7: was so traumatized after witnessing the murder and so well

905
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 7: trained manipulated to tell the one story Case convinced her

906
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 7: that she was an accomplice and was just as guilty

907
00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 7: as he, that she could not remember relatively minor details

908
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 7: having been omitted.

909
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 1: I asked Patrick what he makes of the stun gun

910
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: found on Anastasia's bed. He writes, quote, I do not know.

911
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 7: All I know is Bob found it, told an officer

912
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 7: and watched the officer pick it up bare handed. Spoiling

913
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 7: any fingerprints, which was his first complain about the unprofessional

914
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 7: behavior of the Sheriff's department.

915
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 5: I heard all this days after the fact.

916
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 1: I then asked Patrick about how Bob said he changed

917
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: his phone number that evening or that day, because the

918
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: day after the day when Anastasia's body was found, Bob

919
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: couldn't get a hold of Patrick. He responds with quote.

920
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 7: This was in the days of internet by dialog, and

921
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 7: I had two separate phone lines, one for voice communication

922
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 7: and the other strictly for Internet dial up. AT and

923
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 7: T had recently offered the feature of call notes, where

924
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 7: I could be on line and let a message go

925
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 7: directly to voicemail, not interrupting my online work, but still

926
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 7: not rendering me completely incommunocado while doing so. The change

927
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 7: went into place on the twenty third of October nineteen

928
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 7: ninety seven.

929
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 5: By sheer coincidence.

930
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 7: Bob had my work phone, but I had changed jobs

931
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 7: only a month earlier, and he only had my old number. Fortunately,

932
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 7: I kept in touch with my old coworkers and they

933
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 7: had my number, but it was a difficult few hours.

934
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 7: Bob admitted to me much later that just for an

935
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 7: hour or so, he wondered if I was involved in

936
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 7: the murder and had absconded, or alternatively, whether something had

937
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 7: also happened to me and was part of a big conspiracy.

938
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 7: Such are the fears and paranoia that can hit us

939
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 7: during a tragedy when information is incomplete. My cruel fate

940
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 7: changing my phone plan also wiped out the voicemail messages

941
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 7: I had saved on the pous line, including my last

942
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 7: two or three messages from Anastasia, and did so on

943
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 7: the day after her death.

944
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: I asked Patrick when was the last time he spoke

945
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: with Anastasia. Did she call him that night? He says

946
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: that she called him two nights before the murder.

947
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 7: She called me on twenty October just to say hello,

948
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 7: around ten thirty in the evening. We chatted for about

949
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 7: twenty minutes about how she was doing about her relationship

950
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 7: with Justin. She said at the time that she had

951
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 7: it under control, which was something I doubted she could

952
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 7: understand at eighteen years old. We closed our conversation the

953
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 7: way we always did. The last words I said to

954
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 7: her were I love you, and her reply was love

955
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 7: you too.

956
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: Another question is about how Bob asked Sergeant Kilgore where

957
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: Patrick was the night of October twenty second? Why does

958
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: Patrick think Bob ask Kilgore that and where was he

959
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: that night?

960
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 7: Patrick responds with because I personally asked Bob to do so.

961
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 5: Kil Gore kept going on and on about.

962
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 7: How none was being ruled out as a suspect, primarily

963
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 7: as an excuse for his own inaction. He'd only talked

964
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 7: to me briefly about Anastasia, never checking whether I had

965
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 7: an alibi, but was being vindictive with Bob, and I

966
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 7: wanted to see whether he was going to play that

967
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 7: game with me. Kilgore didn't bite. I still consider him

968
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 7: a poor detective and a rather petty individual, but he

969
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 7: is not dumb.

970
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: I asked Patrick why Anastasia's mom, Betsy Owens said in

971
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: her interview with Kilgore that she had been keeping the

972
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: kids away from him, and that she told one of

973
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: her brothers she thought he was a quote latent pedophile.

974
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: He responds with.

975
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 7: Well, I fail to see why your question has even

976
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 7: the slightest connection with Byron Case's attempts to reverse his conviction,

977
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 7: other than a supporter's use of anything which they can

978
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 7: get hold to attack and damage people. I will answer

979
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 7: if only in the hope of putting it to rest.

980
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 7: They say that we should speak no ill of the dead,

981
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 7: but occasionally it may be necessary, and this is just

982
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 7: such a case. Betsy was an old friend we met

983
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 7: in nineteen eighty one, but was also a frequently manipulative

984
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 7: and vindictive person, and she and I had been on

985
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 7: very bad terms for more than a year at that point.

986
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 7: I felt that her marriage to Bart, a habitual cocaine user,

987
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 7: had become a code of pendent relationship, that she was

988
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 7: putting her daughters in danger as a result. We stopped

989
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 7: speaking after a serious incident in nineteen ninety six. I

990
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 7: can count on one hand the number of times we

991
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 7: spoke after that. In November nineteen ninety seven, when speaking

992
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 7: to police, Betsy thought what she was saying was confidential,

993
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 7: would never get back to me or anyone else, and,

994
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 7: to use one of her daughter's phrase, she had no filters.

995
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 5: She was angry.

996
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 7: She would say things to hurt others, irrespective of the truth,

997
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 7: and here she twisted and exaggerated minor moments into major accusations.

998
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 7: If you read her entire interview thirty two pages, you

999
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 7: may note she frequently would go off on tangents. It

1000
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 7: is significant to me that JCSD never asked me anything

1001
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 7: about it, nor used it in any way during the trial,

1002
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 7: but when it was released as part of the body

1003
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 7: of the investigation, the FBC group leapt upon it as

1004
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 7: a way to attack others. I met her in nineteen

1005
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 7: eighty one when I sought psychological counseling for work related stress,

1006
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 7: and Betsy was my therapist for a period of six months.

1007
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 7: She quit her job when she gave birth to her

1008
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 7: second daughter, Francesca. She helped me a great deal with

1009
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 7: that issue, and I became a family friend. I am

1010
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 7: eternally grateful for her girls having become such a large

1011
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 7: and important part of my life. It turns out, however,

1012
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 7: that there are limits to a friendship. Slander is one

1013
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:20,919
Speaker 7: such limit. She blamed me for Anastasia deciding to become

1014
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 7: a religious skeptic. I did not talk religion with any

1015
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 7: of the girls, something of which I made a strict point,

1016
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 7: having actually driven them to church a few times in

1017
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 7: their younger days, until such time as they brought up

1018
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 7: the subject themselves. Contrary to Betsy's claims, I am not

1019
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 7: an atheist, falling mostly into the category of spiritual but

1020
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 7: non religious. Anastasia first came to her own conclusions about

1021
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 7: sixteen and called me as a trusted mentor, only having

1022
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 7: brought the subject up with her mother. She told me

1023
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 7: at the time that her mother had blamed me for

1024
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 7: even thinking of such things. By that time, Betsy and

1025
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 7: I were barely on speaking terms due to the danger

1026
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 7: in which I felt she was putting them. On page

1027
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 7: nine of her interview, she blithely states that her husband,

1028
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 7: Bart was a crack addict in recovery, with two to

1029
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 7: three relapses during that time, and described how they were

1030
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 7: broken into while Bart was drinking. The truth is that

1031
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 7: he was drinking and using crack and chased her and

1032
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 7: her children out of the house with violent threats, then

1033
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 7: ransacked the house, including the girls rooms, with a friend

1034
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 7: for whatever they could sell and converted to more drugs

1035
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 7: and my urging. Anastasia filed charges against her stepfather, but

1036
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 7: her mother coerced her in a dropping them.

1037
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 5: However, she did not return to the home.

1038
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 7: Yes, Betsy blamed me for having encouraged Anastasia and Francesca

1039
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 7: to move out and live with their father in nineteen

1040
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 7: ninety six. I actually encouraged alfoorda move out for their

1041
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 7: own safety. She never forgave me, and for the fact

1042
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 7: that her husband was physically afraid of me.

1043
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 5: This was her revenge.

1044
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 1: Patrick goes on to.

1045
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 7: Write, yes, I had a stepmother who was an alcoholic,

1046
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 7: which did indeed leave scars on me and my siblings.

1047
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 7: But I told that to Betsy during counseling, as well

1048
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 7: as the fact that I had an older half brother,

1049
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 7: fifteen years my senior, who pled guilty to sexual battery

1050
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 7: after having had an affair with a teenage girl when

1051
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 7: he was nearly forty. It was consensual, but she was

1052
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 7: under age and he knew better, and he served a

1053
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 7: sentence of a year in county jail. He died in

1054
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 7: two thousand and one in New Mexico. I recall that

1055
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 7: Betsy mentioned him in her police statement as if it

1056
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 7: reflected upon me again information gained as a psychological counselor.

1057
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 7: I did not turn the girls against their stepparents. Their

1058
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 7: stepparents did that by themselves. It is odd to me

1059
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 7: that she would claim she thought me a latent pedophile

1060
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 7: when she personally called on me numerous times.

1061
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 5: The babysit them for each girl's.

1062
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 7: Tenth birthday, I took them on a special night dinner

1063
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 7: at a Japanese steakhouse, a movie of their choice, and

1064
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 7: a horse drawn carriage ride through the country club Plaza

1065
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:19,439
Speaker 7: Casey shopping district. I did not recall their mother being

1066
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 7: anything but absolutely supportive of the nights out. Betsy was

1067
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 7: nominally a member of her mother's fundamentalist congregation, but only.

1068
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 5: Grabbed a hold of her faith.

1069
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 7: I put it in quotes for an obvious reason to

1070
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 7: justify her codependent marriage to a drug addict. Since she

1071
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 7: had earlier decided that Anastasia had lost her faith due

1072
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 7: to my influence, it was something to blame me for

1073
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 7: his punishment for not having supported her one hundred percent.

1074
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 7: As it is, My relationship with the girls continued and

1075
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 7: does to this day. Bob's younger brother, Hugo, is still alive,

1076
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 7: so I feel no qualms in calling him a nutcase.

1077
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 5: Bob calls him that as well. Well.

1078
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:04,440
Speaker 7: As Hugo is both a religious and political extremist, he

1079
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 7: could not understand my relationship with Anastasia and her sisters

1080
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 7: and assumed the worst in his dirty mind. I find

1081
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 7: that people of this mindset tend to project their worst

1082
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 7: fears onto others, assuming that others are all capable of

1083
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 7: the same dark urges as they, but much more impure.

1084
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 7: Hugo never confronted me nor the girls about such matters,

1085
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 7: never sought to confirm or refute his beliefs, but just

1086
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 7: muttered his suspicions to Bob, which Bob casually repeated to Betsy,

1087
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 7: and never to me, which Betsy twisted and used a

1088
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 7: police interview as a forum. As I said, she was vindictive.

1089
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 7: I first learned of her accusations only when they were

1090
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:52,919
Speaker 7: released to the FBC group, which published them on their website,

1091
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 7: and Betsy refused to repudiate the statement for fear of

1092
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 7: losing her license to practice psychology. It ended up with

1093
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 7: her voluntarily surrendering her license and retiring anyway after I

1094
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:08,560
Speaker 7: decided to file a complaint against her with the board

1095
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 7: in two thousand and three. My complaint against Betsy was

1096
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,440
Speaker 7: that she had wrongfully disclosed information which I had confided

1097
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 7: to her as a patient, had done so for a

1098
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 7: malicious reason, and had included falsehoods with that information in

1099
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 7: an effort to slander me. I was not aware until

1100
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 7: I filed the complaint that she had violated her ethics

1101
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 7: many years before, simply by befriending me immediately after having

1102
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 7: been my counselor. Missouri law requires not having a personal

1103
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 7: relationship with a client for one year after they ceased

1104
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 7: to be one's client. I did not file that charge,

1105
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 7: and they became moot after she retired, even though it

1106
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 7: did not repair the damage she did me. That was

1107
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 7: the last time we spoke to each other.

1108
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: Patrick continues with.

1109
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 7: And now, after having spent an unnecessary amount of time

1110
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 7: on this, I must ask what makes this even the

1111
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 7: least bit relevant to Byron case the supporter's efforts to

1112
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 7: free him. What makes this so relevant that you felt

1113
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 7: a need to raise it. I do not recall it

1114
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 7: being used anywhere except by the FBC group as a

1115
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 7: way to slander me.

1116
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 1: For the record, I asked Patrick about this because legally

1117
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: I have to give him a chance to respond to

1118
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:32,720
Speaker 1: Betsy's allegations. Unfortunately, I can't ask Betsy to verify or

1119
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 1: deny Patrick's allegations because she passed away in April of

1120
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. Another question I asked Patrick is about

1121
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: how he was is a Negro Baseball League researcher and historian.

1122
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:51,200
Speaker 1: His connection to Lincoln Cemetery and how he felt about

1123
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 1: Anastasia being killed there. Patrick responds with.

1124
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 7: I remain a Negro league research you're only remotely active

1125
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 7: now of Famer Wilbur Bullet Rogan is buried in Blue

1126
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,720
Speaker 7: Ridge Lawn Memorial, just a mile or so south of

1127
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 7: Lincoln Cemetery on the same road. But there are no

1128
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:13,719
Speaker 7: Negro leaguers of whom I know buried at Lincoln. However,

1129
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:17,400
Speaker 7: Jazz immortal Charlie Bird Parker is buried not one hundred

1130
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 7: and fifty feet from where Case murdered Anastasia. I was

1131
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:25,479
Speaker 7: unaware of that fact until after the murder, never having

1132
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 7: visited Lincoln until November nineteen ninety seven. However, because members

1133
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 7: of the FBC group occasionally would visit the cemetery on

1134
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:39,520
Speaker 7: the anniversary of the murder and leave posters and placards,

1135
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:42,320
Speaker 7: for a few years, I took to sitting inside the

1136
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:45,759
Speaker 7: cemetery in my car near the spot of the murder,

1137
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 7: holding vigil until about seven thirty PM, the approximate time

1138
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,760
Speaker 7: of the murder, and then leave. Kids who never knew

1139
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:57,639
Speaker 7: Anastasia but had heard of the murder also liked to

1140
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 7: come up there on a Dare on that anniversary, only

1141
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 7: nine days before Halloween, and whole seances or generally littered

1142
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 7: the place, and I had run ins with both groups

1143
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:13,200
Speaker 7: at least once each. The last time, I was sitting

1144
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 7: with the car's engine running but lights off, when I

1145
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,160
Speaker 7: saw a car coming up the backway the route that

1146
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 7: case had justin drive. I waited until they were within

1147
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 7: one hundred feet, turned on my brights, red my engines,

1148
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 7: and hit the emergency blinkers. That is a treacherously narrow pathway.

1149
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 7: They came up, and they surprised me and how quickly

1150
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:34,680
Speaker 7: they turned.

1151
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 5: The car around and retreated.

1152
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:40,640
Speaker 7: I'm sure they thought I was the police. Nothing is

1153
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 7: exciting with the FBC. They just stood and glared at me.

1154
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:48,600
Speaker 7: I assumed they glared. I could not see their expressions

1155
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 7: from that far away in such dim light, and then

1156
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 7: retreated without putting up any signs. One time they left

1157
01:10:57,160 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 7: but tried entering later on the same night, hoping I

1158
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 7: had left by then. That was the one time that

1159
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 7: Bob joined me, so they were actually outnumbered. Eventually, Lincoln's

1160
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 7: Cemetery finally blocked the back entrance people were dumping trash

1161
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 7: there as well, and put a gate up in front,

1162
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 7: which was locked in the evening, and I seized my

1163
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 7: vigils about twenty twenty. No, it is not particularly stressful

1164
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 7: about Lincoln's Cemetery other than it being the place where

1165
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 7: Anastasia died. A stressful thing for me is being forced

1166
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:33,800
Speaker 7: to relive this trauma over and over again every time

1167
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 7: FBC makes another attempt to spring case and then inevitably

1168
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 7: drags Anastasia's family into it.

1169
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 1: Patrick continues with I am usually.

1170
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:47,160
Speaker 7: The firewall between the girls in FBC's annex, but even

1171
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 7: then they were all forced to go through this again.

1172
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:54,160
Speaker 7: In my first email to you, I made the remark

1173
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 7: i'll quoted he killed her more than a quarter century ago.

1174
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:02,520
Speaker 7: He killed her yesterday, He will kill her tomorrow.

1175
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 5: This is what I mean.

1176
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 7: They keep dredging this up, putting new spin on all lies,

1177
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:14,679
Speaker 7: and he keeps killing her again and again and again.

1178
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 7: And having to again read the lies that Betsio and

1179
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 7: surreptitiously told police twenty seven years ago, and have to

1180
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 7: defend myself again from attacks from beyond the grave. Tends

1181
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:28,839
Speaker 7: to put a hard knot of anger in my stomach.

1182
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 7: Understand I do not directly blame you for this I

1183
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 7: assume you were brought in by the O'Briens. Usually everyone

1184
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 7: is recruited by FBC, if not Evelyn Case herself. But

1185
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 7: I wonder why you deem it of such importance.

1186
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 1: Patrick closes one of his emails with quote, I only

1187
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 1: looked at a single one of your podcasts to get

1188
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:56,600
Speaker 1: a feel for your style, But I do not know

1189
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 1: if in all of them so far you have found

1190
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,639
Speaker 1: the real killer to be the one already in prison.

1191
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 1: Back to Sean and Quinn in Lincoln Cemetery, standing on

1192
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:13,799
Speaker 1: the spot, what do you two feel?

1193
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 10: I've had different feelings over the years. I've thought that

1194
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:25,880
Speaker 10: if you wanted to end your own life, that this

1195
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:29,840
Speaker 10: is a beautiful, tranquil spot that you might choose to

1196
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 10: do that. I've also thought that, you know, a young

1197
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,000
Speaker 10: person wanting to come and you know, talk with the

1198
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 10: boyfriend or girlfriend and you know, make out, you know,

1199
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:45,240
Speaker 10: like kids do, that this would be a good place

1200
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:48,519
Speaker 10: for that. It does not seem to me like a

1201
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:51,680
Speaker 10: place you'd bring someone to kill them if that was

1202
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:56,040
Speaker 10: year intent. It is isolated, But I just don't know.

1203
01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 10: You know, all of that is just speculation. Did she

1204
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 10: get here still a big question for us. We know

1205
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:09,519
Speaker 10: that Byron and Justin did not drive her here because

1206
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:12,800
Speaker 10: it just doesn't fit all the other things we know

1207
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 10: about what they did and where they went that evening.

1208
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 10: There just isn't any evidence that they ever were. The

1209
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:20,560
Speaker 10: only word on that was Kelly Moffett.

1210
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 9: I don't think Kelly was ever here. I don't think

1211
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:26,840
Speaker 9: Byron or Kelly or Justin ever made it into the cemetery.

1212
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:29,960
Speaker 9: And I don't think Kelly ever came here until she

1213
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:33,759
Speaker 9: was brought here by members of the Jackson County Sheriff's Department.

1214
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:37,600
Speaker 9: I think the first time Kelly moffittt saw this cemetery

1215
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 9: was the first time she was brought here by Kilgore.

1216
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 1: I feel very sad here.

1217
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, first time it came, I brought flowers. It just

1218
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,280
Speaker 9: felt like the right thing to do. You know, this

1219
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 9: is still a spot where someone died and you know,

1220
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:57,759
Speaker 9: a pretty remarkable young person.

1221
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 10: And yeah, yeah, that's the part of this case. It

1222
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 10: gets to me is that we have access to so

1223
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:12,679
Speaker 10: much of who Anastasia is because we have her letters,

1224
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:16,880
Speaker 10: notes to friends, we have poetry that she's written. She

1225
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:23,679
Speaker 10: was a bright, empathetic, loving young woman, and it's really

1226
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:29,799
Speaker 10: sad yeah.

1227
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very sad. I know this episode is a lot.

1228
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 1: You might need to listen to it again, maybe all

1229
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:39,800
Speaker 1: the episodes for that matter. And I told you from

1230
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:43,760
Speaker 1: the very beginning this story has me pulling my hair out.

1231
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 1: Although there are many people who believe there are no

1232
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:51,680
Speaker 1: unanswered questions Kelly watched Byron kill Anastasia and that's the

1233
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:54,800
Speaker 1: end of it, there are still others who believe this

1234
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,720
Speaker 1: is not an open and shut case. Did Anastasia go

1235
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 1: home and change her clothes? Byron's legal team thinks she did,

1236
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 1: so does Patrick rock Bob used to think that. Now

1237
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:10,679
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to say. If Anastasia did go home,

1238
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:13,719
Speaker 1: how did she get there, what happened while she was there,

1239
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:16,880
Speaker 1: and how did she make it back out to Lincoln Cemetery.

1240
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 1: How is it that Anastasia was found in the same

1241
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 1: clothes she was seen leaving the house in when Don

1242
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 1: Wright says she had something on completely different? How is

1243
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 1: it that Anastasia was found in a clean pad and underwear?

1244
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:34,599
Speaker 1: What time did people see her alive and what time

1245
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: was she killed? And how does logic play into any

1246
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 1: of this? If you're anything like me and our team,

1247
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:48,720
Speaker 1: you have a million questions about this story, So we

1248
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 1: want to hear from you dm us on Instagram or

1249
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:55,719
Speaker 1: email us at The Real Killer Podcast at gmail dot com,

1250
01:16:56,200 --> 01:17:00,120
Speaker 1: and hopefully we can answer your questions in future episodes.

1251
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:08,240
Speaker 1: Next time on The Real Killer, he comes into.

1252
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 3: The room, he sets down, and we said, well, what

1253
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 3: did you think? And the first thing that said that

1254
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 3: everything that Kelly said after two thousand was a lie.

1255
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:20,680
Speaker 1: Her story cannot be true. Are some of the key

1256
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:23,400
Speaker 1: players starting to waiver on Byron's guilt.

1257
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:27,760
Speaker 11: I would run into the judge and I said, Judge gent, well, Cap,

1258
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:30,519
Speaker 11: you got a minute? And I just told him, I says, help.

1259
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:33,880
Speaker 11: Byron didn't do this. And then one day he sent

1260
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:34,519
Speaker 11: me a letter.

1261
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:35,760
Speaker 1: What does it say?

1262
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:41,639
Speaker 11: When we read it? It's a good one.

1263
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

1264
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: those of the individuals participating in the podcast. If you,

1265
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:57,280
Speaker 1: or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis,

1266
01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 1: please no help is available. Call or text nine eight eight,

1267
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 1: or chat online at the Suicide and Crisis Lifelines website

1268
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 1: at nine eight eight lifeline dot org. To see photos, maps,

1269
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:15,160
Speaker 1: and documents related to this season's story, follow The Real

1270
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:20,240
Speaker 1: Killer podcast on Instagram and at trk podcast on TikTok.

1271
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:29,160
Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia,

1272
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and

1273
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:39,799
Speaker 1: Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Editing

1274
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:44,280
Speaker 1: and sound design by Cameron Taggi, mixed and mastered by

1275
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 1: Cameron Taggi. Production coordinator Andy Levine, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam

1276
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:57,880
Speaker 1: studio engineer Graham Gibson. Voice acting by Art Garza. Legal

1277
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:03,520
Speaker 1: counsel for AYR Media, Giannie Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartMedia,

1278
01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:04,799
Speaker 1: Maya Howard