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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Greetings, this is it could

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Speaker 1: happen here. I'm Garrison Davis, and this episode I will

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Speaker 1: once again be talking about the Defend the Atlanta Force project.

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Speaker 1: Last month I released two episodes totally like three hours

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Speaker 1: in content, uh, discussing the movement from its inception up

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Speaker 1: until the current state of affairs at time of recording,

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Speaker 1: which was like early May. If you want background on

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Speaker 1: this uh, really interesting and vital piece of resistance that's

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Speaker 1: happening in Atlanta, Georgia, then I would recommend you at

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Speaker 1: least attempts to check out the Juggernaut of Audio, which

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Speaker 1: is that too part a long story short. There's this

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Speaker 1: police training facility that the Atlanta Police Foundation and other

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Speaker 1: corporate interests in the city are trying to build on

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Speaker 1: one of the city's last remaining like massive swaths of

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Speaker 1: of a continuous forested land. On an adjacent piece of

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Speaker 1: forest at Land, a movie studio called Black Hall is

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Speaker 1: trying to expand their sound stage onto a whole other

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Speaker 1: section of the woods. The joint projects of the police

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Speaker 1: training Facility dubbed Cops City and the Black Hall Studios

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Speaker 1: sound stage expansion threatened hundreds of acres of the largest

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Speaker 1: continuous piece of the Atlantic Forest, located in southwest in

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Speaker 1: Decab County. The area is often referred to as the

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Speaker 1: Lungs of Atlanta and produces a massive amount of tree

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Speaker 1: canopy in the city and is a wonderful little ecological spot.

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Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to visit in late April to

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Speaker 1: help in putting together those those two episodes, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot a lot has happened since then.

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Speaker 1: Coming off the success of getting Reeves Young to cease

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Speaker 1: work on the Cops City project, I felt like there

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Speaker 1: was this sense of renewed optimism regarding the potential of

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Speaker 1: actually winning. On the other hand, in just during the

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Speaker 1: week before the Week of Action, attempts by cops to

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Speaker 1: enter the forest increased and there was talk of increasing

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Speaker 1: crackdowns against the forest offenders by local law enforcement, who

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Speaker 1: also announced that they called in the FBI to assist them,

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Speaker 1: which leads us to the Week of Action. On the

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Speaker 1: morning of May nine, which was a Monday, barely a

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Speaker 1: day into the Week of Action, a bulldozer was brought

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Speaker 1: into the Atlanta Forest. This is based on reporting by

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Speaker 1: the Great Folks at the Atlanta Community Press and other

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Speaker 1: on the ground reports from forced offenders hosted by the

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Speaker 1: Defend the Atlanta Forest account and scenes dot no blogs.

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Speaker 1: So around nine thirty a m Monday morning, people inhabiting

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Speaker 1: the Wilani Forest woke up to the sounds of trees

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Speaker 1: going down and metal machinery. A bulldozer marked with Dodd

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Speaker 1: Drilling LLC, accompanied by to Decab County cops, had bulldozed

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Speaker 1: a path through the forested Entrenchment Creek Park, directly adjacent

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Speaker 1: to the old Atlanta Prison Farm. The park land is

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Speaker 1: currently under threat by the Black Hall Studios sound stage development.

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Speaker 1: The Dodd Drilling bulldozer destroyed a significant swath of forests,

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Speaker 1: injuring plants and animals in its path. When people learned

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Speaker 1: about this, around forty folks quickly mobilized and gathered around

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Speaker 1: the bulldozer, confronting the project managers and the police officers

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Speaker 1: on the scene. Those gathered showed it at the workers

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Speaker 1: and cops to go home and declared that this is

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Speaker 1: a public park. When the two Decab County police who

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Speaker 1: were protecting the bulldozers were confronted, it was revealed that

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Speaker 1: they were actually working as off duty uniformed private security,

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Speaker 1: seemingly taking orders from the construction management. The management, who

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Speaker 1: wore vests labeled Contour Engineering and Dot Phillips, claimed that

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Speaker 1: they were not working for Black Hall Studios. Who who

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Speaker 1: knows if that's true or who they might be working

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Speaker 1: for that Georgia state law does permit off duty police

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Speaker 1: officers to be hired, along with their uniforms, service weapons,

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Speaker 1: and vehicles, by private companies for their own purposes. The

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Speaker 1: police expressed that they were not aware that they were

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Speaker 1: in a public park along with the bulldozer they were protecting,

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Speaker 1: and faced with a confident group of responders intent on

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Speaker 1: defending the forest from further destruction, police and the construction

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Speaker 1: management quickly made the decision to retreat from the woods.

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Speaker 1: The off duty cops had called in reinforcements from Decab County.

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Speaker 1: Seven more Decab County Leah calls showed up, but by

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Speaker 1: the time the extra police survived, workers were driving the

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Speaker 1: bulldozers back into the parking lot. The police were persuaded

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Speaker 1: to leave by the actions of intelligent people acting quickly

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Speaker 1: and collectively in defense of the land. The force defenders

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Speaker 1: then escorted the cops and the workers out of the

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Speaker 1: park and made sure the destruction of the woods had

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Speaker 1: truly ceased. Police scanners reported that vehicles transporting the bulldozer

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Speaker 1: faced a brage of rocks and had their windshield smashed.

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Speaker 1: Entrenchment Creek Park is still a public park and property

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Speaker 1: of Decab County under a civil court injunction. The pending

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Speaker 1: case prevents construction or clearing by Black Hall Studios. Later

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Speaker 1: that same day, a group of around forty people marched

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Speaker 1: to the home of Shepherd Long, the principle of Long Engineering,

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Speaker 1: an engineering firm subcontracted to do surveying and other preconstruction

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Speaker 1: work on the Atlanta Police Foundations Public Safety Training Center,

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Speaker 1: which we called Cops City. The group rallied for about

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Speaker 1: ten minutes outside Shepherd Lungs home and was demanding that

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Speaker 1: Long Engineering sever its contract with the Coup City Project.

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Speaker 1: One of the group members read aloud a statement directed

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Speaker 1: to Shephard Lung, which I will play the audio of here.

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Speaker 1: Atlanta is a city of forests with the most tree

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Speaker 1: coverage of any urban city in America. If you continue

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Speaker 1: to work with Brassfield and Gory, the entire city will

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Speaker 1: experience worse floods, higher temperatures at small Field afternoons. You

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Speaker 1: have the power to stop that. This proposed military training

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Speaker 1: compound is in the nucleus of a culturally rich Black

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Speaker 1: community full of churches, preschools, and community centers. Dozens of

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Speaker 1: children and grandparents have lived there for years. If you

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Speaker 1: continue to work with Brassfield and Gory, our streets and

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Speaker 1: backyards when we filled of shootings, explosions, and here gas,

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Speaker 1: where we want our children and neighbors to be able

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Speaker 1: to breathe clean air and experience the vastness of the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta for wris not to be victims of a domestic

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Speaker 1: war zone. You have the power to stop that. We

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Speaker 1: are here to fight for the future of our city,

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Speaker 1: our children, our neighbors, and our planet. We all no

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Speaker 1: ill will towards you personally. We just want you to

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Speaker 1: make this one right decision. We no long Engineering has

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Speaker 1: many other contracts with many other companies. We are only

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Speaker 1: here to ask you to drop this one company, brass

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Speaker 1: Field and Glory, until they dropped their contracts with the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Police Foundation. The group distributed flyers alerting neighbors to

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Speaker 1: the work of Shepherd Long and what his company was

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Speaker 1: doing in De capp County. After about ten minutes, the

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Speaker 1: group quickly dispersed without incident. The next day, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of other events related to the Week of Action.

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Speaker 1: There was a security culture workshop and activist primer about

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Speaker 1: building a collective understanding of ways to keep us all

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Speaker 1: safe from imprisonment the government repression. There was a night

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Speaker 1: of hip hop and punk at a local radical venue

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Speaker 1: that served as a benefit show for the Forest Defense,

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Speaker 1: and other random events throughout the Week of Action included

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Speaker 1: stuff like clothing swaps, bike rides through the forest, yoga

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Speaker 1: in the park, plus daily breakfast and dinners, history talks,

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Speaker 1: art parties, wood walks, skill shares, and a sick night

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Speaker 1: rave along with you know, forest tours and much more. So.

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Speaker 1: That's just two days of the Week of Action. Um

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Speaker 1: the Monday and the Tuesday, when we get back from

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Speaker 1: this ad break, I will get into what happened on

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Speaker 1: Wednesday and then and then Thursday. You know, we're going

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Speaker 1: to go through it linearly. Um, despite my criticisms of

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Speaker 1: linear time, we will go through this in a linear

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Speaker 1: fashion because that's how formatting this episode was easiest. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: here's some ads and we are back talking about the

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Speaker 1: Defending Atlanta Forest Week of Action. So, just after ten

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Speaker 1: am on Wednesday, May eleven, to de Cab County Park

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Speaker 1: Police entered the forest to inspect the path created by

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Speaker 1: the bulldozer that previous Monday. As they were exiting the forest,

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Speaker 1: forest offenders ambushed them by throwing rocks and bottles at

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Speaker 1: their vehicles and smashing the cars windows. At noons like

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Speaker 1: two hours later, a van marked law enforcement Department of

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Speaker 1: Juvenile Justice pulled up into the parking lot of Entrenchmant

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Speaker 1: Creek Park. It's worth noting that the area of Entrenchment

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Speaker 1: Creek Park and the forested area on the Atlanta Prison

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Speaker 1: Farm has like two child prisons on it. We talked

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Speaker 1: more about those in the in the two part series

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Speaker 1: from last month. But anyway, so this van marked Department

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Speaker 1: of Juvenal Justice pulled up into the parking lot inside

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Speaker 1: in Trenchmant Creek Park, But an hour later, the van

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Speaker 1: was attacked suddenly by a brage of rocks and multiple

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Speaker 1: tires were slashed. The van attempted to escape, but was

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Speaker 1: left stranded in the parking lot until the cab police

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Speaker 1: were able to escort it out. Police were nervously walking

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Speaker 1: backwards in order to keep their eyes on the tree line,

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Speaker 1: where they knew forced defenders would be watching them at

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Speaker 1: every moment. Multiple police vehicles were damaged. Nobody was detained

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Speaker 1: or arrested. Portions of that report came from scenes dot

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Speaker 1: no blogs dot org. Earlier that same day, like early

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Speaker 1: in the morning, around forty people visited the home of

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Speaker 1: Keith Lanier Johnson Jr. In Kensaw, Georgia. Keith is the

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Speaker 1: Eastern Regional president of Brassfield and Gory. Brassfield and Gory

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Speaker 1: are the current general contractor on the Atlanta Police Foundations

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Speaker 1: Cops City Project. Flyers were posted around the neighborhood, past

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Speaker 1: the low barrier fencing around the gated community. An anonymous

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Speaker 1: statement released online at scenes dot no blogs read quote

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Speaker 1: now that Keith is no longer busy on the board

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Speaker 1: of the Mount Perrin Christian School. It seems he is

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Speaker 1: now managing the one hundred and forty two thou dollars

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Speaker 1: of fines levied against his employer for safety and wage

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Speaker 1: theft violations. He's also overseeing the destruction of grave sites,

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Speaker 1: leveling of a vital tree canopy, and the militarization of

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Speaker 1: the American Police Force. It is for those reasons that

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Speaker 1: community members went to his home at six am. We

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Speaker 1: hope that Keith is able to convince the two owners

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Speaker 1: currently sitting comfortably back at home in Birmingham, that the

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Speaker 1: current Atlanta Police Foundation contract is untenable and there is

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Speaker 1: an urgent need to cancel it. It could turn out

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Speaker 1: that Keith personally is carrying to brunt the pressure for

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Speaker 1: his boss's decisions. Brassfield and Gory will eventually drop the

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Speaker 1: Cop City project. Anonymous groups are developing new methods for

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Speaker 1: disincentivizing the project. The next day, on May twelve, a

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Speaker 1: tightly packed crowd around eight mask protesters converged on the

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Speaker 1: Brassfield and Gory Atlanta office in broad daylight. People holding

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Speaker 1: banners and launching fireworks arrived at the building, and force

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Speaker 1: defenders covered the side of the office with stop Cops

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Speaker 1: City graffiti and chanting will be back as they left.

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Speaker 1: Unicorn Riot reported that five people were arrested following the

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Speaker 1: action and booked on several charges, including some felonies. Charges

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Speaker 1: were including riot and criminal damage to property and quote

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Speaker 1: terroristic threats and acts. I know that some but possibly

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Speaker 1: not all, people's charges got dropped, and the listed bond

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Speaker 1: amount for some individuals was extremely high, getting up to

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Speaker 1: around fifty dollars just for an individual. Nearing the end

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Speaker 1: of the week of action, on Saturday May eleven, a

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Speaker 1: march to Defend the Forest took the streets in East

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Village, led by local preschoolers. There were some really

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Speaker 1: nice signs and artwork done by kids. The Defend the

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Speaker 1: Forest twitter account posted some beautiful photos of kids protests.

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Speaker 1: Signs that says forest is life and love you trees stop,

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Speaker 1: never cut down the trees aloged with very very good art.

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Speaker 1: It was very very pleasant to see. A Few hours later,

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Speaker 1: another march to Atlanta at the top Cops City drew

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Speaker 1: around two hundred protesters. After about an hour of marching,

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Speaker 1: the crowd returned to Freedom Park, where they were then

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Speaker 1: attacked by police without warning. Dozens of cop cars pulled

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Speaker 1: up and police helicopters loomed overhead. Armored cops were arresting

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Speaker 1: people on the sidewalks for marching on the streets, for

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Speaker 1: playing drums, or for just standing in the wrong place.

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Speaker 1: Atlanta police and Georgia State Patrol officers assaulted, shoved, and

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Speaker 1: tackled multiple people, deployed tasers, and threatened neighbors who filmed

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Speaker 1: the arrests. One person violently arrested was taken to the

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Speaker 1: hospital for treatment. To defend the forest twitter account posted

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Speaker 1: quote at least seventeen arrests to night by Atlanta Police Department.

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Speaker 1: Spirits high as the forest raves and the encampment grows

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Speaker 1: outside the forest, men stand vigil at the jail, welcoming

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Speaker 1: arrestees as they are released. We are strong together. The

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Speaker 1: forest unites us. The cops cannot divide us. Atlanta police

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Speaker 1: say that the march was in violation of pedestrian laws,

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Speaker 1: which is why they charged and start of assaulting people

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Speaker 1: on the sidewalk. And that wraps up some of the

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Speaker 1: week of action stuff. I know there was a lot

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Speaker 1: more things that happened, but trying to crime it all

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Speaker 1: into a tight package was challenging. So that that was

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Speaker 1: the general general week week of action vibes. But there

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Speaker 1: is there's more. We still we still have like half

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Speaker 1: the episode to go because a lot, a lot else

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Speaker 1: has happened in in the days since then. In the

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Speaker 1: early morning on Monday May sixteen, a week after the

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Speaker 1: bulldozer descended on the forest, accompanied by off duty cops

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Speaker 1: acting as security, a home associated with Dodd Drilling LLC.

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Speaker 1: Was painted with slogans including Dodd Rilling, stay out, stop cops, city,

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Speaker 1: and drop a p D. A message for the homeowner

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Speaker 1: associated with Drilling was released, which you can read the

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Speaker 1: full version of online at scenes dot no blog dot org.

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Speaker 1: I'll read some portions of it here. Quote. Last Monday,

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Speaker 1: a bulldozer with your logo forced its way into the

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Speaker 1: Wolani Forest and left one hundred foot trail of destruction

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Speaker 1: in its wake. Forced defenders responded quickly with rocks and rage,

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Speaker 1: but some damage was already done. Despite having no permit,

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Speaker 1: you allowed Atlanta Police to use your equipment to intimidate

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Speaker 1: and injure the forest and its residents. Today, you know

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Speaker 1: what it's like to have your space invaded. You came

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Speaker 1: into our home, so we came to yours. Your private

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Speaker 1: property is not as private as you may think. We

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Speaker 1: demand that you stay out of the Wolani Forest and

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Speaker 1: stop working with Atlanta Police and Cops City contractors. To

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Speaker 1: all others who would support Cops City, it might have

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Speaker 1: more costs than you anticipate, financial and other wise. Many

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Speaker 1: creatures care deeply about this forest and are prepared to

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Speaker 1: defend it. Any partner of the A p D or

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Speaker 1: contractor for Cops City is our enemy and a potential target.

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Speaker 1: The Wulani Forest is not dying, it is being killed,

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Speaker 1: and those who are killing it have names and addresses.

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Speaker 1: A list of local Atlanta evil doers is available at

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Speaker 1: stop reeves young dot com. The next day, on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: May seventeenth, Atlanta police, backed by other state and federal

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Speaker 1: law enforcement, including the CAB Police, Georgia State Patrol, the

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Speaker 1: Georgia Bureau of Investigation, and the FBI, raided the South

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Forest. The raid came just days after the Week

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Speaker 1: of Action, which brought hundreds to the Atlanta Forest to

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Speaker 1: participate in workshops, plant gardens, watch films, and protest at

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Speaker 1: the homes of developers plotting the forests destruction. Shortly after

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Speaker 1: the scheduled events ended, police gathered their forces to raid

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Speaker 1: the forest encampment. Police started staging at around nine am

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Speaker 1: on Tuesday and started coming in at around ten am.

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Speaker 1: Force defenders started mobilizing and calling for support. Cops blocked

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Speaker 1: off the roads leading to the forest access points and

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Speaker 1: told drivers stuck at the blockade that quote were opening

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Speaker 1: up the site for construction. Soon, cops started arresting protesters

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Speaker 1: that gathered in Entrenchment Creek Park and towed any car

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Speaker 1: on the streets outside of the park. Helicopter circled the forest,

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Speaker 1: trying to track the movement of forest offenders under the

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Speaker 1: cover of the tree canopy. Police near occupied trees were

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Speaker 1: heard talking about quote flushing out people inside tree houses

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Speaker 1: in the face of militant resistance. Police did manage to

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Speaker 1: cut down trees and destroyed multiple treehouses, destroyed force defenders,

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Speaker 1: personal belongings, and other protest infrastructure set up by the

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Speaker 1: land defenders, all in an effort to allow contractors to

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Speaker 1: begin development of the ninety million in dollar Cops City project.

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Speaker 1: On Twitter, they defend the Atlanta Forest account posted quote

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Speaker 1: reports that the Atlanta Police and Georgia State Patrol are

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Speaker 1: chainsawing in an area of the old Atlanta prison farm

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Speaker 1: where people have occupied trees to defend the forest. Dozens

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Speaker 1: of forest defenders moving in groups all over the woods

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Speaker 1: throughout the raid. No arrests inside the forest reported so far,

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Speaker 1: only from the perimeter at the public park. Police seem

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Speaker 1: unwilling to pursue people through the forest. Swat rifles trained

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Speaker 1: on forest defenders occupying a treehouse to stop Cops City.

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Speaker 1: The Defend the Forest twitter account also posted a video

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Speaker 1: of a semitruck packed full of building supplies headed into

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Speaker 1: the north boundary of the proposed Cops City site where

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Speaker 1: police were raiding the forest defense occupation. I'm gonna do

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Speaker 1: a little quote from Unicorn and Riot, who reported on

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Speaker 1: the police raid. Quote. According to police, those committed to

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Speaker 1: defending the forest put up a fight, pelting the officers

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Speaker 1: with rocks, and what appeared to be a Molotov cocktail

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00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,920
Speaker 1: was deployed along a fence line. In the wake of

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Speaker 1: the raid, a truck barricade constructed months ago to protect

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Speaker 1: those occupying the forest from police incursions showed signs of

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Speaker 1: having being set on fire. Flaming barricades are a common

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Speaker 1: tactic used by protesters around the world. To push back

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Speaker 1: against police unquote. Eventually, police let media enter a small

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Speaker 1: contained area on the other side of the blockade. Police

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk with the multiple press outlets that had

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Speaker 1: gathered near the site in an attempt to gain control

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Speaker 1: of the media narrative. Atlanta Police Deputy Chief sheer Bomb, Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's how I'm pronouncing it. I've no idea has actually said,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's sheer Bomb held an interview staged

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Speaker 1: by the Public Affairs Office. Overall, the goal seemed to

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Speaker 1: be to control the media narrative by painting police as

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Speaker 1: the heroes and the protesters as a very small group

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Speaker 1: of outside agitators. After getting the statement from police, most

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Speaker 1: media left the scene. While the blockades were still up

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Speaker 1: on both sides of the forest access road. Deputy Chief

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Speaker 1: sheer Bomb said that police escorted contractors into the forest

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Speaker 1: and preliminary work was being done. Police later specified that

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Speaker 1: they were at this site to a company contractors tasked

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Speaker 1: with removing some temporary illegal structures that were set up

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Speaker 1: by protesters, and that quote no one was hurt. Media

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Speaker 1: framed the raid and subsequent arrests as the police cracking

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Speaker 1: down on a group of violent outside agitators cops giving

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Speaker 1: statements like quote, we will not be deterred by the

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Speaker 1: acts of a few that do not represent our community,

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Speaker 1: and with local news covering the incident like quote several

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Speaker 1: protesters who are arrested after they threw a molotov cocktail

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Speaker 1: at police as officers raided a camp on the grounds

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Speaker 1: of the planned Atlanta Police Departments training facility unquote, even

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Speaker 1: though the arrests took place in a completely different section

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Speaker 1: of the woods, where protesters were gathered openly in a

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Speaker 1: public park and actually happened before the cocktail was thrown.

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Speaker 1: Yet there was a lot of attempts to link the

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Speaker 1: arrests to them altof cocktail. But you know, media media

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Speaker 1: just do that, and they gobbled up the story of

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Speaker 1: of the of the cocktail and of the outside agitators

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Speaker 1: attacking Atlanta police and it's not representing our community. Eight

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00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 1: people were arrested and faced charges ranging from criminal trespassing

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Speaker 1: to police obstruction. Despite attempts by police to paint the

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Speaker 1: movement as the work of quote outside agitators, while also

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Speaker 1: working alongside of growing list of out of town law

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Speaker 1: enforcement organizations, the movement to Oppose Cops City has been

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Speaker 1: directly rooted within a broad localized opposition, whether that be

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Speaker 1: with Atlanta based organizations fighting against gentrification, local chapters of

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Speaker 1: climate change protest organizations, or just anonymous individuals that reside

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Speaker 1: across Atlanta, or the indigenous people who have incestral connections

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Speaker 1: to the land. And hours after the raid, there was

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Speaker 1: a Atlanta community press conference put on at Entrenchment Creek Park,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to read a statement that somebody gave

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Speaker 1: at the press conference. Quote, this is an attempt to

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Speaker 1: demoralize a vibrant and diverse movement led by local community

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Speaker 1: members against the replacement of the largest urban tree canopy

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Speaker 1: in the United States with the largest police training compound

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Speaker 1: in the United States. The police will attempt to depict

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Speaker 1: this movement as a small group of hard line activists.

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Speaker 1: We are all neighbors of the forest. We are intelligent

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Speaker 1: people who know that the future of the world is

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Speaker 1: on fire, and who are determined to act and to

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Speaker 1: defend what remains to sustain life in this city and

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Speaker 1: on this planet. The city is only going to get hotter,

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00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 1: wrench is only going to get more expensive. Food and

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00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 1: gas prices are only rising. The city has no answers

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Speaker 1: for this, except for a more militarized police force. You

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Speaker 1: can't prop up a free society with violence alone. The

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Speaker 1: next day, protesters from Saturday's Stop Cop City march had

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Speaker 1: court and all of their charges were dropped. Atlanta police

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Speaker 1: is just desperate to get a good boogeyman to blame

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Speaker 1: any potential uprising on, and they're not being super successful

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00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 1: and letting any of these charges stick. There was this

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Speaker 1: really great point made by this person named Audi Khali

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00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: and was going to quote from a thread they posted quote.

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Speaker 1: Thirty seven arrests were made in relation to the decentralized

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Speaker 1: Defend the Atlanta Force movement over the past weeks, mostly

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Speaker 1: for made up jaywalking charges, but only twelve had their

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00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 1: legal identities revealed to corporate media and right wing doctors.

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Speaker 1: Why all twelve protesters who were docked these past couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks were said to be from out of state.

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Speaker 1: When journalists asked if other protesters had Georgia residences, answers

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Speaker 1: were denied. The answer to why is simple. These twelve

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00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: currently possessed out of state I das and appeared white passing.

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Speaker 1: The other twenty four arrestees might not necessarily fit these categories.

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Speaker 1: Noticed that right wing troll and you know, amitted the

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00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: ages of the arrestees who are not in their twenties

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00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: as well. This is yet another iteration of the outside

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Speaker 1: educator and narrative and an attempt to delegitimize resistance while

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Speaker 1: denying local agency unquote. Police are continuing to target stop

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00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: copsy of protesters with extremely high bales. Just getting nine

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Speaker 1: protesters released during one week cost over a hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: So please if you're able to consider donating to the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Solidarity Fund, there will will be links in the description.

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Speaker 1: So that was the raid that took place a few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago. Six tree houses were destroyed. And those tree

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Speaker 1: houses weren't just like tree sets to defend the forest,

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00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 1: as were also like people's homes like that that that's

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Speaker 1: where people were living. Uh so six six of those

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00:24:54,880 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: were destroyed, multiple force defenders, personal belongings were stolen or

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00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: are just dismantled and decimated by the cops. And overall

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00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: the raid was pretty bad. I mean, it's it kind

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00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: of it kind of sucked. We will talk about what

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00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: has happened since the raid when we come back from

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Speaker 1: a little at break all right, we are back after

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Speaker 1: the raid. Officers from Atlanta Police Departments Zone three Field

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Speaker 1: Investigations Team discussed using deadly force against protesters if they

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Speaker 1: used molotov cocktails to defend themselves from a raid. According

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Speaker 1: to scanner audio publicized by activists, listen closely for like

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Speaker 1: thirty seconds to hear their conversation discussing deadly force. The

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00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: good thing we didn't get out the damnal today. I

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00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: don't do well with fire. Oh yeah, right, howld you

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00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: deadly force encounter? Wait? Whatever doing with fire? That's why

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00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: I brought it up. I was saying, as long as

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Speaker 1: we're all that they paid the deadly fourth encounter, you liar,

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00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: ro cop bails them at the road pure the treehouse

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00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: they had up, they had cars like on it, people

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00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: coming in a protest against copy. Sure, So I'm just

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00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: gonna reread one little section in case it was hard

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Speaker 1: to hear. Quote, I told you deadly force encounter. That's

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Speaker 1: why I brought it up. As long as we're on

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Speaker 1: the same page, I'm atop cocktail is the deadly force

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Speaker 1: encounter unquote. So a deadly force encounter is a situation

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Speaker 1: where officers are legally allowed to shoot to kill. Basically,

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00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: what this scanner audio ins anuates is that police are

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Speaker 1: preparing or thinking about just killing people when multov cocktails

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Speaker 1: are deployed. So that's a thing. Also, it's a little

431
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: interesting that police themselves referred to the project as cops City.

432
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: But yeah, keeping track of scanner audio has been a

433
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: big part of the not on the ground portion of

434
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: the movement is being all to track police communications, police

435
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: locations all using open source information, and tops are really

436
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: scared and paranoid when it comes to stuff around the

437
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: forest and just don't seem to be able to grasp

438
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: the idea of a decentralized resistance movement that is capable

439
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: of a diversity of tactics, including militant ones. There's this

440
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: other scanner audio that was released displaying Atlanta police's ignorance, cowardice,

441
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: and paranoia related to what they believe is a group

442
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: dubbed Black Flag Atlanta. You guys gotta be carefully had

443
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: a um to the cab jobs are sitting in the

444
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: van and they they attacked the van or you know,

445
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: knocking windows out with flatting attires and stuff. But they're

446
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: supposed to be a group called a Black Flag Atlanta

447
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: that are targeting police and they have an app and

448
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: stuff back can monitor our vehicles and shows about patrol

449
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: cars are sitting at with lab updates. You know, you know,

450
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: you know, they could be dropping the fans pointing something

451
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: or you know, sort of trap or damaged property and

452
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: shout in the range you said, they gotta what's the

453
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: name of that? I just pulled back around find it.

454
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: But the group is called black Flag Atlanta, So the

455
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: so called group that police refer to as black Flag

456
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: Atlanta is likely just referring to a hobbyist website that

457
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: simply collects on the ground reports and open source police

458
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: scanner information. The website is an open resource for anyone

459
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: to use. It's not a group of people. It's just

460
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 1: a random online tool that lets you listen to scanner audio.

461
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: The cops mentioned that they're afraid because of the actions

462
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: of some anonymous individuals who surrounded a law enforcement vehicle

463
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: and damaged it while officers were inside just sitting terrified,

464
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: and then did the same to a juvenile detention facility.

465
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: Van I discussed the details of that direct action earlier

466
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: in this episode, when anonymous people through rocks and slash

467
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: tires of those law enforcement vehicles. Quoting from an anonymous

468
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: statement on scenes dot no blogs, quote, the cops believe

469
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: that Black Flag Atlanta is a group that tracks and

470
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: monitors cops and their locations around the forest and works

471
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: to attack them. This is laughably wrong. Rather than understanding

472
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: that our power comes from open source intelligence, horizontal organizing,

473
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: and transparency, they have conjured up a shadowy organization that

474
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: organizes hits on police officers and publishes their targets right beforehand. Unquote.

475
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: Cops really just don't seem to have a clue on

476
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: what's what's actually going on um or how any types

477
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: of decentralized infrastructure works, or how movements are really operated.

478
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: It is an interesting thing to see. But scared cops

479
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: are also dangerous cops. As we just mentioned about them

480
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: planning to use lethal force if there's a multip cocktail

481
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: in the area right when cops are scared. That's not

482
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: necessarily always a good thing. Um. It just you know,

483
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: a lot of police training is based on being afraid

484
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: and then using deadly force if you are afraid. So

485
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: it's just a thing to think about. I'm not I'm

486
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: not I'm not making any like commentary here, I'm just saying, yeah,

487
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: cops seem really scared, and that can be good. It

488
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: also can be dangerous. I'm now going to talk a

489
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: bit about solidarity actions, because you know, not everyone's able

490
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: to go to Atlanta, even if even if they would

491
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: like to go to Land and help help participate, some

492
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: people just aren't able to. But that doesn't mean people

493
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 1: are unable to assist in the movement. I'm gonna do

494
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: a little quote from Unicorn riot quote. In recent weeks,

495
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: autonomous attacks in solidarity with efforts to defend the Atlanta

496
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: Forest have occurred throughout the country, according to a website

497
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: that tracks such actions, One repeated target has been at

498
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: Las Technical Consultants, the apparent company of Long and Airing,

499
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: a subcontractor of the cop City project, which had its

500
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: windows of its office smashed in Albany, New York, in Minneapolis, Minnesota,

501
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: and it's building tag with the graffiti in Highland, Indiana.

502
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: The website also received reports of attacks on Bank of America,

503
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: which donates money to the police foundations across the country,

504
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: including the Atlanta Police Foundation. Attacks were reported in Pittsburgh, Philadelphia,

505
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: Portland's Enemy Appolis unquote, and I'm going to just go

506
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: through a list of solidarity actions that have happened in

507
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: May and now up into June. Most of these were

508
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: posted on scenes dot no blogs that seems to be

509
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 1: the main site for anonymously posting communication or report backs.

510
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: You can find guides to how to do so with

511
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: more Internet security on websites like scenes and websites like

512
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: Warrior up. So anyway, here's just a list of little

513
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: communications that have been released related to solidarity actions that

514
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: have taken place in the past month. Quote. On the

515
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: evening of May to I smashed seven windows at the

516
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: office building where the northeast offices of Atlas are located

517
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: in Albany, New York. I also tagged Atlas stopped destroying

518
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: the Atlanta Forest, destroying concience of acres of forest during

519
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: the sixth greatest mass extinction of species. To build a

520
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: police training facility following one of the largest anti police

521
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: uprisings in decades is fucking disgusting with his vandalism. I

522
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: urge Atlas to do the right thing and to drop

523
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: any contracts with Brassfield and Gory and the Cops City Project.

524
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: During the week of Action, the brass Field and Gory

525
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: Corporate HQ in Birmingham, Alabama was targeted. According to a

526
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: strongly worded anonymous statement published on scenes. The report back

527
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: reads quote. On the morning of the thirteenth, the windows

528
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: and glass doors to the brass Field and Gory Corporate

529
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: HQ were smashed. The words drop cops city or else

530
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: were spray painted on the windows. Paint was applied to

531
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: the front sign. Let it serve as a warning to

532
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: the executives at brass Field and Gory. We know where

533
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: you work and we know where you sleep. Your houses

534
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: could be next Keith Johnson Miller, George James Gory. You

535
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: will drop this contract eventually. Why wait to see how

536
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: far will go? In solidarity with a struggle in Atlanta unquote.

537
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: And then just a few days ago, construction offices in

538
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania were hit. The community was short and sweet, just

539
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: reads quote. Door windows smashed and building tagged at the

540
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: northeast office of Atlas Technical Consultants at two one to

541
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: six Fillmore Avenue in Erie, Pennsylvania. Stop cops City, defend

542
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: the Atlanta Forest and forests everywhere. A few days ago,

543
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: on May thirty one, there was a massive police mobilization

544
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: involving helicopters and a road checkpoint around the Atlanta Forest

545
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: at the proposed Cops City site. According to reports, Atlanta

546
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: Police Department accompanied Long Engineering, who seemingly were surveying for

547
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: a perimeter fence. No arrests were reported. Long Engineering, as

548
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: we've stated, is owned by Atlas Technical Consultants, and it's

549
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: currently being contracted by Brassfield and Gory, the Atlanta Police

550
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: Foundation's general contractor. The stoft Reeves Young Campaign least a

551
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: statement discussing the events of the past few days quote.

552
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: On May thirty one and June one, Brassfield and Gory

553
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: subcontractor Long Engineering entered the old Atlanta prison farm with

554
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: chainsaws and heavy machinery. They are cutting down trees in

555
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: order to build a fence around the zone. This is

556
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: where the Police Foundation believes they will build the Cops

557
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: City training compound. They hope to prevent the community from

558
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: seeing what they are doing. Long Engineering, owned by a

559
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: man named Shephard Long of ken Saw, Georgia, has already

560
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: participated in destructive acts in the South River Forest. For this,

561
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 1: they have become the object of a nationwide pressure campaign

562
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: by activists and communities organizing to oppose police militarization and

563
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: climate change. Long is a subsidy of Atlas Technical Consultants.

564
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: If activists in community bers can convince brass Field and

565
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: Gory to drop their contract with the Atlanta Police Foundation,

566
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 1: the project could lose funding and fall apart. Brass Field

567
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: and Gory uses many subcontractors to do their projects, including

568
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: Atlas Technical Consultants subsidy Long Engineering. By encouraging Long Engineering

569
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: to drop the contract with Brassfield and Gory, we encourage

570
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: Brassfield and Gory to drop their contract with cops city.

571
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: Climate collapse and police militarization are not abstract processes so

572
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: that nobody can stop. They happen because of observable and

573
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: preventable reasons. If you care about police brutality, if you

574
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: want to stop climate change, this is your chance to

575
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: do something unquote, and I do think there are a

576
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: lot of signs that people actually can make actual impacts.

577
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: At the last Community Stakeholder Advisory meeting, Atlanta Assistant Police

578
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: Chief Darien schnear Bomb said that construction plans could be

579
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: quote delayed or deferred because of the actions of a

580
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: very few unquote, and said that this is why police

581
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: agencies are working to quote addressed criminal protests very quickly

582
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: so it doesn't get into that realm unquote. And on

583
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: the day I record this, which is June second. Earlier

584
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: this morning, to police chased Force defenders into the woods

585
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: near a work site and found a camp. Ten Force

586
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: defenders confronted and surrounded a bulldozer that was in the woods,

587
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: resulting in a work stoppage. On a communicate released online

588
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: at scenes read quote work stopped today Thursday, June second,

589
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: as a group of ten Force defenders confronted a bulldozer

590
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: in the forest just west of the Duvy today forcet.

591
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 1: Defenders launched rocks and fireworks, yelling get the funk out

592
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: of the woods. As the machine was attacked. Four to

593
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: five workers, likely with long engineering, hid behind the bulldozer

594
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: while one Atlanta Police officer stood idly with his hands

595
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: on his hips. Force defenders retreated into the woods. How polling,

596
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: no arrests were made. We call upon anyone who wants

597
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: to defend the forest and stop cops city to support

598
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: the struggle by sewing chaos along the perimeter. Plan a

599
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: slow moving car caravan on Constitution Road, or a rally

600
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: at the juvie workers and pigs. We repeat, stay the

601
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: funk out of the woods unquote. And also today a

602
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: new timeline was released detailing the construction plans for a

603
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: cops City. The Atlanta Police Foundation plans to begin cutting

604
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: down massive swaths of trees in about two weeks. The

605
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:39,439
Speaker 1: clearing is planned for nearly of the four hundred acre property,

606
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 1: so defour stations seems to be just two weeks away

607
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: now based on the full site plans that are viewable online.

608
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: I will link the plans in the show notes along

609
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: with the Stop Reeves Young campaign, which details ways to assist,

610
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 1: like calling campaigns and random stuff that is maybe more

611
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: possible from afar. But the sty Copsdy project is going

612
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: to continue all throughout the summer and seems to have

613
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: no sign of cooling down. It is only it is

614
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: only heating up as the summer gets hotter, so well

615
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: the stuff in the forest in more ways than one,

616
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 1: But anyway, that doesn't for us. Today. You can check

617
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: out stop Reeves Young dot com for the calling campaign

618
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: and for the list of quote evildoers that are working

619
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: to DeForest sections of the Atlanta South River Forest. You

620
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 1: can go to scenes dot no blogs dot org to

621
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: read communicates and report backs, and I'll put links for

622
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: the Atlanta Solidarity Fund in the description as well. See

623
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: you on the other side. Welcome to it could happen here.

624
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: It's the show with things fall apart and we put

625
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: them back together again and there may may not be

626
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: enormously allowed lawnmowers in the background. Yeah, this is this

627
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: is This is a podcast also about abolishing lawns, although

628
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: I guess I guess not to today. It's only about

629
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: abolishing lawns because I'm extume we know it about neighbors.

630
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 1: But we can we can do an anti lne episode

631
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: in the near future. Yeah, one day, one day, but

632
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: but it is on on. On a more serious note,

633
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: is I have Garrison with me, and I have Tanya

634
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: with me, who is an abortion clinic escort and has

635
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: been doing this for a very very long time. Tanya,

636
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us, Thank you for having me. Yeah,

637
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: I'm I'm really excited to talk with you about this because, um,

638
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: this is well, this is something we've been wanting to

639
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: do for a while because I think not enough people

640
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: know what this is. So I guess I guess the

641
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: first thing is is, Yeah, can you explain to people

642
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: who aren't familiar with this what clinic escorting is. Absolutely so.

643
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: There are a number of volunteer clinic escorts across the

644
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: country and many are they're they're not necessarily organized nationwide,

645
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: but many metro areas do have organizations where you can

646
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: volunteer to be a clinical score. And what that means

647
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: is that you are essentially someone who goes to a

648
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: clinic that performs abortion services and you stand outside that

649
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: clinic and you help the patients get into the clinic,

650
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: uh hopefully free of harassment from protesters outside, and just

651
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 1: ensure that protesters don't block access to the clinic and

652
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: that the patients are able to get inside you know,

653
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: know where they're going and get insanely Yeah, and that

654
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: seems like that it seems like a really hard job

655
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: in a couple of ways. But both of the sense

656
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 1: that like there's a bunch of extremely angry and very

657
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: weird people with really signs and very sincerely held beliefs

658
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: on in a different uh side where they they do

659
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 1: want to stop people from going and convince them not

660
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: to go in um, you know, and it is interesting

661
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 1: as as a clinic escort, you know, you're you're really

662
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: you don't have an opinion, Like I don't have an

663
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: opinion on whether someone goes in, someone can go in,

664
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: someone cannot go in. It's not you know, where the

665
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: people who do the clinic escorting are there because we

666
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: believe that women and their partners should have a choice

667
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: about what to do. And so if a woman chooses

668
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: that she doesn't want to go into the clinic, you know,

669
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: that's fine by me. I'm just there to ensure that

670
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: she has the choice to go into the clinic um

671
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: and and get whatever services she needs, whether it's uh,

672
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: whether it's crenatal care or contraception or abortion services. So um,

673
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating because yeah, there are a lot of people.

674
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 1: You know, the protesters on the other side can really

675
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 1: run the gamuts. Some of them, um, are very angry

676
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: and have very interesting signs, but some of them, you know,

677
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: you they also range to those who are just standing

678
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: there saying the Rosary, walking up and down, and the

679
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: carrying crucifixes. And you know, if it was just people

680
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 1: saying the Rosary and then going coming saying the Rosary

681
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: and going, I probably wouldn't do what I do because

682
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: that's neither here nor there from me. It's the people

683
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: who are you know, they will try to get in

684
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: the window of a car when a car pulls up

685
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: if if they happen to have the windows down and uh,

686
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: you know, get in the like put their heads in

687
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: the car to try to talk to the people or

688
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: hand them literature. Um And I've seen some of the

689
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: literature that you know, people have shared with us after

690
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: it's been given to them, you know, and it's a

691
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: lot of it is full of misinformation, um and and

692
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: kind of also you know, as someone who was raised Catholic.

693
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: Uh and and it's coming from people many many of

694
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: the people who are protesting are Catholic. It's very emotionally

695
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: manipulative and not actual information on some of them. I

696
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 1: remember seeing one once around Christmas time that was like

697
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: a whole cartoon about how excited Mary was to be

698
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: Jesus mom and uh and and how therefore that means

699
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: that you should not have your pregnancy terminated because you

700
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 1: should be more like Mary and be excited too. Yeah, yeah,

701
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: pretty fascinated. Yeah, And I guess that's another thing that

702
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: that I was wondering about to what extent, like so

703
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 1: Obviously there's a physical component of this, right is okay,

704
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: trying to make sure that people aren't physically interfering. Um,

705
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: how much of it also is sort of like providing

706
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: emotional support to the to the people you're with, sure,

707
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: because it's really stressful it can be. I mean, the

708
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: clinic where I'm an escort is has a little bit

709
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:32,479
Speaker 1: of a perimeter where uh, there's there's a parking lot

710
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: and between the people where they can actually protest out

711
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: on the sidewalk which is public property obviously and the

712
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: actual entrance to the clinic. Um. But there are people

713
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: who come in off a public transport to and not

714
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: necessarily aren't necessarily coming in a car where they can

715
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: get sort of beyond where the protesters are um to

716
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 1: the clinic. And so I actually have a vivid memory.

717
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: I've been doing this for sixteen years, and I have

718
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 1: a vivid memory of a woman who came off the bus.

719
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: She got down off the bus at the bus stop, like,

720
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 1: and the protesters really got up in her face. And

721
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: one of them in particular was a guy who is

722
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm not a small person, I'm about five ten and

723
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: and and pretty decent size, but he's definitely over six

724
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,439
Speaker 1: ft tall, and he was just like looming over her,

725
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: and I had to physically insert myself in between her

726
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: and him and say, Hey, you want to go to

727
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,479
Speaker 1: the clinic, this is how you get there. You don't

728
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: have to listen to these people. If you want to

729
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 1: talk to them, you can, but you know you don't

730
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: have to, and you know, and and really, you know,

731
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: they're in such a fragile moment, most of them. Interestingly,

732
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: that that particular individual had come to find out wasn't

733
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: even coming for termination services. She was coming to get

734
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: an ultrasound. She was having twins, and it was the

735
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: lowest cost place that she could go to actually find

736
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: an ultrasound to make sure that her twins were okay,

737
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: um and so. And she even came out afterwards with

738
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: the ultrasound and like shoved it in the guy's face

739
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: and was like, you know, you know, go take a

740
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,919
Speaker 1: flying leap, but um so, But yeah, I mean, part

741
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: of it is just showing that there are people who

742
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: believe that you have the right to make the choice

743
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: you're making, and that we're not judging you. We're not here,

744
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: you know. I think a lot of women in the

745
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: position of who feel that the need to terminate a pregnancy,

746
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: they feel very judged. It's it's it's society is very

747
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: judgment Bault And I think you know, being there, we

748
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 1: have so many people who come up to us UM

749
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: and just say, hey, thanks for being just thanks for

750
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: being right. It's it's just helpful to know that someone

751
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: is here, uh, and and and and believes that I

752
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: have the right to make this decision and that I'm

753
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 1: the best person to make this decision about me and

754
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: my body and my family. UM is really it's it

755
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: makes it that much, it makes it better. And and

756
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: people will come up and tell the most personal stories

757
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: as well. We've had someone who came up to me

758
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: once and said, hey, no, ten years ago, my wife

759
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: was pregnant UM and we had been trying for so

760
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: long to have a baby, and we found out that

761
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: there was this massive, you know, genetic defect that was

762
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: not really compatible with life, and we had we had

763
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 1: we faced the tough decision about do we go ahead

764
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 1: and terminate this pregnancy and and try to start again

765
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: and have it and and and get pregnant again, or

766
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: do we carry this to term knowing that this child

767
00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 1: isn't going to live um for very long and that individual, uh,

768
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: you know, and his wife and decided to to terminate

769
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: the existing pregnancy, knowing that the baby wasn't going to live.

770
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: And he said, and uh, when we went to actually

771
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: have the abortion, we had to run the gauntlet of

772
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: all of those people outside, all those people like this

773
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: telling us how we were killing our baby. Um, I

774
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: wanted baby. You know that we were killing our child

775
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 1: and we were murderers and all of that. And so

776
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: he was just like, just thank you for being here,

777
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: thank you for being here and showing because you don't

778
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: know what what's going on in the lives of all

779
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: of these people who are coming in here and they

780
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,919
Speaker 1: don't know all what's going on. And so and he said,

781
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: I really wish we had had someone like you know,

782
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: you standing here to let us know that it was okay,

783
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: you know, at the end that moment of time to

784
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: to to do this. So, yeah, it's it's interesting people

785
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: will tell very very personal stories. The next thing I

786
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: was wondering is about how how this has changed over time.

787
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you've you've been in this for like

788
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 1: longer than I've been, like very seriously a conscious person.

789
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, so so I'm wondering what has it been like,

790
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: how how has this changed over the past sort of

791
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: like a decade and a half, And has there been

792
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: a change like very very recently as in in in

793
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: the sort of like as as Row looks like it's

794
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: dying and what do you think that's going to mean

795
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 1: going forward for this? Yeah? Um, so yes it has

796
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: changed over time. Um, and and yes it has changed

797
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 1: very recently as well. Um, what I what I can say.

798
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 1: You know, when I first started doing this, it was

799
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: really just kind of you know, the same hand and

800
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: and it still is the same handful of usual suspects

801
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 1: who show up at least at the clinic I escort

802
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: at um. But it was really it was it was

803
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: a small handful. And uh, it was the same people

804
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: every week, week week, week after week after week. And um,

805
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: you know on the clinic sport side, you know, we're volunteers,

806
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: so you know, we need people to come and be

807
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: sort of energized, and so you know, we have a

808
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: cadre of people who have been doing it. Yes, I've

809
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: been doing it for sixteen years. But there's a woman

810
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: that I I a sport with. There are several women

811
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: that I sport with who've been doing it decades longer

812
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: than I, right, and yeah, I mean really amazing, really

813
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 1: amazing women and who probably have even more interesting stories

814
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 1: than I do. But you know, in the you know,

815
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: we and we would see after after something happened, like

816
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: when George Tiller was murdered, we had an influx of

817
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: volunteers who came, people who were angry and said, you know,

818
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: I was so upset and I realized I needed to

819
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 1: do something about it. Um. So periodically there have been

820
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: you know, obviously, you know, the murder of George Schiller

821
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 1: was a tragedy, but we've had things like that that

822
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: have energized people and brought them in two actually doing

823
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: clinic escorting. UM. And there's been a little bit of

824
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 1: a pickup recently in the number of escorts, but it's

825
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 1: nothing like the pickup that I think I've seen in

826
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 1: terms of antis anders. And it's you know, and it's

827
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: important because you know, if you really believe that people

828
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: should have the right to bodily autonomy and the right

829
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: to make this choice, UM, that that requires people to

830
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: actually make it happen for them, and there are a

831
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: lot of people trying to make it not happen. And

832
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: I actually I was actually esporting, um because the clinic esports,

833
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: uh they you know, we actually change off, we have

834
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: a schedule. We don't all go every week at least

835
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: at the clinic where I am, because you know, we

836
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 1: also want to have our own lives and not just

837
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: be standing at this clinic every every weekend. Um. But

838
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: I was esporting the weekend after Ruth bader Ginsberg died

839
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: and I was standing by myself kind of it went

840
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: end well, another person went and just I think picked

841
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 1: up a sign or took a bathroom right or something,

842
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: and one of the newer anties um stood across from

843
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: me and yelled at me that Ruth bader Ginsburg was

844
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 1: was burning in hell now and that if I didn't repent,

845
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: you know, that the same thing would happen to me,

846
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: and that that's just how plan that, you know, people

847
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 1: who believe in in killing babies, uh just are going

848
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: to rotten hell for eternity. And and so that was

849
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: an interesting you know, and it was the first time.

850
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,240
Speaker 1: Most of the time they don't really try to engage

851
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: us in conversation, but it was the first time someone

852
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 1: was really just saying super super like sort of inflammatory

853
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: stuff to me as an personally, as an escort, we

854
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: certainly had heard, you know, they'll they'll say things to

855
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 1: patients where they say, you know, don't go in there,

856
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: it's not safe, you're good mom to your baby, and

857
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, which is also you know, obviously

858
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: incredibly emotional views to women going through uh, you know

859
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: what they're going through when they feel that they have

860
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: no better choice than determinate pregnancy. UM. But uh, yeah,

861
00:53:55,520 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: the actual sort of the vitriol towards towards the escorts

862
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: is a little is increasing UM. And I would say

863
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: around the time Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, we also have

864
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: seen an enormous uptick in the number of protesters outside

865
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: the clinic um each each week, as well as the

866
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 1: length of time that they will stay. UM. They actually

867
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 1: about doubled the length of time that they should stay UM.

868
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: And so you know, it's it's been a challenge. It's

869
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: been a challenge for us on the escorting side to

870
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: actually cover the ships because you know, we are again

871
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: we're all volunteers who have lives and want to live

872
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: our lives. You know, we're women who are mothers, grandmothers,

873
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: Uh men, who are you know, father's grandfathers who just

874
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, want want to do something good and help out. Um.

875
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: And you know, more and more of the time, Uh,

876
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: we were having to stay later, come earlier, stay later,

877
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,439
Speaker 1: to ensure that there's someone there, that there's a there's

878
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,760
Speaker 1: there's a friendly or at least protective president. Uh. For

879
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: the women coming into the have they gotten like have

880
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: they gotten more violent? Um? You know, like I said,

881
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 1: there's actually so for us. It's where we are in

882
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 1: kind of the clinic where I work, are in kind

883
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,240
Speaker 1: of a privileged position, so to speak. And that where

884
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 1: they are stationed, you know, out on the sidewalk is

885
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: uh is far enough away. Um, you know, across a

886
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 1: parking lot from from the clinic that you know that

887
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: the physical altered you know, interactions are are relatively rare. Um.

888
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know that that wouldn't really be better

889
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 1: A question? Better place to a clinic escort? Who's on

890
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: a clinic at a clinic where you know, the entrance

891
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: to the clinic is right on a public I'd walk

892
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: right where I think you know, they definitely do have

893
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: significantly more physical interactions. UM. I guess it's hard to say,

894
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: it depends on how you define that is it there

895
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: For a long time. The one of the signs outside

896
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 1: the clinic was a photo of of the doctor who

897
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: provided the termination services, um, a photo of him and

898
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: his name, and it said retire this person you know

899
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 1: his name and the retire abortionist and then his name um.

900
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: And that that showed up, I think, as I vaguely

901
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: recall around the time George Schiller was was murdered. UM,

902
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:58,280
Speaker 1: So what does that mean? Right? So that's that's violent

903
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: in and of itself. It's it's it's an a suggestion

904
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: there of UM. You know, I won't pretend that it's not.

905
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't sometimes go through my head like

906
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, because there are clinic esports who have been murdered. Um.

907
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 1: And and so it doesn't. It sometimes does go through

908
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: my head, especially like you know, certain times of year

909
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: when we're bundled up and it's cold. Um, you know,

910
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: someone could come up behind me and I you know,

911
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily always hear them or see them. Um. And

912
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: so it is, it's you know, there's definitely always an

913
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: undercurrent in a feeling of you know, something could escalate.

914
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: We're fortunate at my clinic that it It hasn't too

915
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: much recently, but we you know, I would say, you know, again,

916
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: as Roe is dying, you know, they're getting more bold. Um.

917
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: They're not supposed to trespass, they're not supposed to come

918
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: on into the parking lot. Um. And yet there are

919
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: some who are really trying to test that boundary now

920
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: who will go to their car not in the clinic

921
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 1: parking lot, and then as they leave, drive into the

922
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: parking lot and around the by the clinic just to

923
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: sort of um, intimidate people and and and to can

924
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: make the escorts concerned because obviously, you know, when we're

925
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 1: on foot, it's very hard to get physically between them

926
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 1: and something when they're when they're driving, um. And so yeah,

927
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: it's it's there's definitely an escalation in that front, and

928
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: and an escalation in in the rhetoric. Um. You know,

929
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: there are more I would say, kind of pointed signs,

930
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: uh that that are used to try to intimidate the

931
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 1: women into not going into the clinic. There was actually

932
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: there's a sign that had been used for for that

933
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: actually has been used for a little bit longer, but

934
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: it basically it had the names of two women who,

935
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 1: according to the antis uh had died under the care

936
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: of the services of the doctor at our clinic, which

937
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: in the end, when I actually did my own research,

938
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 1: wasn't true. One one just very unfortunately had an allergic

939
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: reaction to the anesthetic, which is not something you know

940
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 1: unless you've been under anesthesia, and uh the other and

941
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: and it wasn't and neither of them wasn't actually the

942
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: provider at at our clinic who was performing the service

943
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: at the time. Uh, those individuals died, but it said,

944
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, dead, and it had these two women's names,

945
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: um and a hundred and fifty thousand babies and um,

946
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: which is a little bit inflammatory. And then it and

947
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: also misleading when you think about it, because you know,

948
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 1: the maternal more totality rate in the United States is

949
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: like over twenty three women for a hundred thousands. So

950
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 1: I was like, well, even if this is accurate, even

951
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: if this sign was accurate, which is not, you know,

952
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 1: two women out of a hundred and fifty that's way

953
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 1: safer than actually for pregnancy UM. And you know, so

954
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: it's those kinds of things. It's it's the mind games.

955
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 1: And you know, as someone who uh, you know has

956
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: seen this for a while, Like you know, to me,

957
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: the mind game is part of the violence, even though

958
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 1: it's not physical. It's it's really you know, trying to

959
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: to make people feel ashamed and feel that they shouldn't

960
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: come out. And I think that you know, as as

961
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 1: we're looking at Robe possibly being overturned, you know, you're

962
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: suddenly seeing all of these people coming out of the woodwork.

963
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 1: Because you know, so many women in this country actually

964
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: do abort a pregnancy at some point in time, do

965
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: terminate a pregnancy, and yet it's not something anyone talks

966
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 1: about because it's it's still because of the dialogue in

967
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 1: this country, and because of the way it is portrayed.

968
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 1: It is something that most people, you know, I don't

969
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: want to be public about, not just because of the

970
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: politics of it, but because you know, there are people

971
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: who are made to feel ashamed and as opposed to

972
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: you know this, This was the right choice for me

973
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: at this point in time. Um, And maybe under different

974
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: circumstances it might have been a different choice. UM. But yeah,

975
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: So I think it's hard to say whether violence has increased, um,

976
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: because it's always had that undercurrent. I mean ever since

977
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 1: I've started, ever since I started doing. One of the

978
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 1: things that we've talked to a few other people, we

979
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 1: talked to someone who was doing security for sort of

980
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 1: security plans for clinics, and one of the things they

981
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: were talking about was like a shift in the kinds

982
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 1: of people who were getting involved in these clinics. And

983
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, in these clinic protests, like I wonder, have

984
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 1: have you have you seen like I don't know, they

985
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: were talking about, like there's been some specifically fascist groups

986
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: getting involved, and I was wondering if like the kinds

987
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: of people who've you've seen have been like that, or like,

988
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the new people who are

989
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 1: getting involved, are they closer to like the kinds of

990
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: people you usually see see outside these clinics. So that's

991
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 1: actually an interesting point that I hadn't I hadn't thought

992
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: too much about. But I think, you know, the previously,

993
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: you know, when I first started doing this, it tended

994
01:02:54,520 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: to be kind of your older Catholic uh folks who

995
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: are you know, coming and saying the rosary, you know, uh,

996
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: standing there with the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary,

997
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: like in front of the clinic and um and and

998
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: you know, some could be pushy. Um, but I think

999
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 1: it is accurate to say there is actually a younger

1000
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: element of anti abortion protester or anti choice really because

1001
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: in the end it's really about the choice, not and

1002
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: and so I think, yes, I'm seeing younger and younger people.

1003
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that you mentioned that because a lot

1004
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: of them are men. Uh, they're young, almost almost entirely white.

1005
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: There is a few a handful of people of color,

1006
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: but um, they they tend to come very very rarely. Um.

1007
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 1: And you know, the it's interesting, So it was largely

1008
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 1: older white men and women previously, and now I would

1009
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 1: say there are many more younger men getting involved, a

1010
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 1: few women. But when for most of the young and

1011
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 1: when I say young, I would say, you know, well,

1012
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:25,919
Speaker 1: while for the for the clinic I'm at, I would

1013
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 1: say anyone under probably the age of forty. But you know, also, um,

1014
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, really when when you know, even under the

1015
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: age of thirty or twenty five, it's with the exception

1016
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 1: of one, it's met it is it is white men. Um.

1017
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, so that's that's interesting. I hadn't It's

1018
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: quite possible. Um, certainly there are some that but you know,

1019
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 1: we as clinic escorts are not actually engaging these individuals

1020
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: and conversation. That's not something that you know, we have

1021
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,760
Speaker 1: to sign pledges that were you know, at least for

1022
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: the for the organization that we volunteer with, that we're

1023
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 1: not going to engage in conversation with them. That we're not,

1024
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 1: you know, because no one you know, and I guess

1025
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: this is sort of the whole point of your podcast.

1026
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,640
Speaker 1: No one is going to change each other's minds on

1027
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: this issue, right um, and you know over over the

1028
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 1: parking lot, uh and and one uh, you know sort

1029
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 1: of interaction. So we actually we we don't and we

1030
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: actively don't because we we just you know, it's it's

1031
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 1: not worth it. We're there. The point of being there

1032
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 1: is not to try to get to know the other

1033
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: the the anti choice demonstrators, it's not to try to

1034
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 1: you know, change their minds. It's just to ensure that

1035
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: the women who have made their decision are able to

1036
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: freely access the health care services that they have made

1037
01:05:56,720 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: the decision access. Yeah, that makes a lot of that.

1038
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: That's definitely seems like the like, it definitely seems like

1039
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 1: the best strategy for this. It seems like something that

1040
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 1: like other people could learn from as like a tactic

1041
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 1: to deal with this kind of stuff, because yeah, and

1042
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:21,120
Speaker 1: engaging with those people. It doesn't I have limited experience

1043
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: with this, but they showed up to my well, okay,

1044
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: show up to my high school, but then they also

1045
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 1: show up to my college, and we just like that

1046
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 1: they were trying to like get in use footage, and

1047
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: so we wound up just like sitting down in front

1048
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 1: of the like just sitting down in front of their

1049
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 1: signs so people couldn't see them, and then just like

1050
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 1: refusing to talk to them, And that I think worked

1051
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: a lot better than like, I don't know a lot

1052
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 1: of the other stuff that I've seen, because yeah, like

1053
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: definitely right, like yeah, like you're not gonna those people,

1054
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like just there's no way you're gonna change

1055
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: the mind of like someone if you's holding a sign there.

1056
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: And I guess that's also another thing that that that

1057
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:03,600
Speaker 1: it's interesting about this, which is yeah, like it's like

1058
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: your your emphasis on it's not about the audiological debate

1059
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 1: as much as it is, like it's not about like

1060
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: you going to confront these people. It's about making sure

1061
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 1: that the people who need these services are safe and

1062
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 1: are able to do it, and that that seems like

1063
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 1: a very powerful way to sort of like bypass this,

1064
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, bypass is weird like discourse circuit

1065
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 1: that everyone gets in. Yeah, I mean I think you

1066
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:34,960
Speaker 1: know what I what I can tell you. I mean, listen,

1067
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: I would love to sleep in on my Saturday mornings.

1068
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't like to to get up and

1069
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 1: give up, you know, you know, two to four hours

1070
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 1: of my Saturday um, you know, in the freezing rain

1071
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 1: or the you know wind and cold auran a really

1072
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 1: hot some more day and and get up out of

1073
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 1: bed to do that. But you know, on you know,

1074
01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 1: there are cold winter mornings and I'm like, oh gosh,

1075
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 1: it's it's early. I'm that that alarms awfully early and

1076
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 1: it's really cold outside. But I always just in my mind,

1077
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 1: the thing that I tell myself is you never know

1078
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 1: who's coming in today, who just needs to see you

1079
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 1: and just needs to see someone there too. You know,

1080
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 1: whether it's to give her the directions because she's so

1081
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 1: distraught after having to drive or walk by a number

1082
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 1: of protesters telling her how she's you know, going to

1083
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 1: regret her decision and how she's a terrible human being

1084
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 1: and she's a killer, and she's at this, she's a slut,

1085
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 1: she's a whole earld whatever, you know, whatever the message

1086
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 1: that someone in that um situation gets by walking past

1087
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 1: those protesters, um, you know, I never know who needs

1088
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 1: to just see me there, and whether it's that she

1089
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:55,519
Speaker 1: just needs directions because she's so distraught after going through,

1090
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 1: you know, running that gauntlet, that she's kind of lost

1091
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,240
Speaker 1: her bearings and she's Okay, which door do I need

1092
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:04,679
Speaker 1: to go in? How do I do this? Or actually

1093
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:09,639
Speaker 1: just needs to see you know, a friendly face or

1094
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, have someone tell her that it's okay to

1095
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:15,800
Speaker 1: not listen to what they have to say to her. Um,

1096
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:20,560
Speaker 1: and it's okay to not internalize that, which you know, UM,

1097
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 1: I think it is probably very very hard when you're

1098
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:29,760
Speaker 1: already in a somewhat emotionally frauds because how could how

1099
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:33,679
Speaker 1: could people who want to start escorting what what would

1100
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 1: be the best way that they could go about doing that?

1101
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 1: Or learning more information about how to do it and

1102
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:41,880
Speaker 1: the different places that that allow it and well not

1103
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: not allowed, but like the different places where different groups

1104
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 1: that help facilitate uh this type of work. Yeah, so

1105
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there there isn't necessarily that I'm

1106
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 1: aware of one sort of national site, but I think, UM,

1107
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 1: a lot of individual sort of local providers have clinic escorts. UM.

1108
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 1: I know that if you most like most, if not many,

1109
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 1: Planned parenthoods will have um, you know, a clinic escort program.

1110
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 1: And so I think you know, sometimes your best that

1111
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:20,840
Speaker 1: maybe just to google you know, clinic escort in my

1112
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:26,839
Speaker 1: area or contact a provider in your area to say, hey,

1113
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 1: how do I get involved? Um, because you know, at

1114
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:33,920
Speaker 1: least in my area where I where I live, there

1115
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 1: is one that sort of covers the area, but it

1116
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: is by no means nationwide, and there definitely are sort

1117
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 1: of localized groups that do it. So I think it

1118
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:45,919
Speaker 1: may be just a matter of reaching, you know, googling

1119
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:49,759
Speaker 1: the clinic escorts or reaching out to your local Planned

1120
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:53,919
Speaker 1: parenthood or if there's another abortion provider in your community

1121
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 1: that isn't planned PARENTO, because there are still many that

1122
01:10:57,160 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: are not in parented uh that you know they may

1123
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 1: And I guess my other thing is so for people

1124
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:09,760
Speaker 1: who for whatever reason can't to escorting but want to

1125
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,479
Speaker 1: help support, I mean it basically people who want to

1126
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,120
Speaker 1: support the providers and the people who need these services,

1127
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 1: UM is like, yeah, what what would you recommend that

1128
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:23,320
Speaker 1: they do? So there are also similarly to to those

1129
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:27,879
Speaker 1: those groups, there's UM there's abortion funds throughout the country

1130
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 1: UM that whether you know, many of them are you know,

1131
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 1: sort of dedicated to individual areas, like local areas, but

1132
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 1: you can look up the abortion fund in your area

1133
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:43,639
Speaker 1: and that is a you know, an organization that will

1134
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 1: actually take donations from from individuals who want to help

1135
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:52,600
Speaker 1: UM and provide sir, you know, provide financial support to

1136
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 1: women who are seeking abortion, whether they it's because they

1137
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:59,040
Speaker 1: have to travel out of state, uh or to somewhere

1138
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 1: even within their state but not where they live in

1139
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 1: order to to actually obtain an abortion UM. And you know,

1140
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 1: because many women who are are seeking seeking termination services,

1141
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 1: they can't always pay for them, you know, especially if

1142
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:17,520
Speaker 1: they're publicly insured. You know, a lot of public insurance,

1143
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:21,600
Speaker 1: you know, federal dollars cannot be spent on abortion services,

1144
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 1: and so they can also help pay for the abortion

1145
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 1: for those individuals, if you It's it's a little bit

1146
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 1: um tougher now that we're in you know, sort of

1147
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:36,480
Speaker 1: in the midst of coronavirus pandemic. There are some organizations

1148
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 1: that also if you live in an area that where

1149
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,840
Speaker 1: there are providers and there are people potentially traveling from

1150
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 1: out of state, especially if you're in an area where

1151
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 1: there is a provider who provides um, you know what

1152
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:53,880
Speaker 1: they call, you know, later term services for people who

1153
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:57,440
Speaker 1: you know, find out that there's a major genetic abnormality

1154
01:12:57,479 --> 01:12:59,599
Speaker 1: along far into the pregnancy or whatever and they need

1155
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 1: to term their pregnancy. UM, you know, there are organizations

1156
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 1: that will actually help you volunteer to house them or

1157
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 1: provide even transportation services to and from appointments if if

1158
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 1: you so choose. But then you know, there's also all

1159
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:19,080
Speaker 1: of the sort of national if if you're looking to

1160
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 1: kind of get more you know, involved at the sort

1161
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:26,760
Speaker 1: of overarching national legal level. UM. Certainly there are a

1162
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: number of organizations, whether it's you know, the Planned Parenthood

1163
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:34,640
Speaker 1: Federation or may Rail or any of those organizations that

1164
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 1: you could certainly don't to as well. Yeah, we will,

1165
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 1: we will will put some of the links in in

1166
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 1: theset description. And I'm sure that there are many things

1167
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 1: I forgot, but those are the ones that jump to

1168
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 1: mind right now. People listening to this, please like go

1169
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 1: help in whatever way you can, because like, if like

1170
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 1: if a wition services continue to be a thing where

1171
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,680
Speaker 1: them existing is a small number of volunteers, they're not

1172
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:13,559
Speaker 1: going to So yeah, please please do that. Yeah, Tanya, Tanya,

1173
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much for joining us, Thank

1174
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,680
Speaker 1: you for having me. Yeah. Yeah, this has been Make

1175
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:22,640
Speaker 1: it happen here. Uh yeah, it's happening here. Do the

1176
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 1: things that you can do to make sure it doesn't.

1177
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:46,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it could happen here. It being a podcast

1178
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 1: hosted by myself, Christopher Wong and the minute It's inimitable, Amena,

1179
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: but blah blah blah blah blah, and Andrew, Andrew High,

1180
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:59,280
Speaker 1: you're in charge. Thank you. Thank I almost stuck that landing.

1181
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 1: I was so still not sucking it up. Are you

1182
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 1: guys proud the way there being consistent and I consisted,

1183
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:10,120
Speaker 1: I mean that you funked it up again, I'm proud. Yeah.

1184
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have tried to say inimitable. That was that

1185
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:14,600
Speaker 1: that was always going to be a disaster. Yeah, it was,

1186
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 1: it was. It was. It was like one of those

1187
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 1: gymnastics landings where it's like they landed and then both

1188
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 1: your feet go in the ground and they jump and

1189
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:25,920
Speaker 1: they fall. Yeah, it's very impressive stuff like that. When yeah,

1190
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 1: well all right, Andrew, what do you? What do you?

1191
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:29,439
Speaker 1: What do you? What do you? What do you? What

1192
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:31,639
Speaker 1: do you? What do you got for us today? Right?

1193
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 1: So for this UM, this this episode's topic. UM. The

1194
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:46,559
Speaker 1: story begins with reddittun god, that's not a great sign. Well,

1195
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:54,600
Speaker 1: reddits and Twitter? Yeah, the the two horsemen UM and

1196
01:15:54,800 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 1: the discourse that occurred on those sites. Uh a while

1197
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:07,439
Speaker 1: ago UM, particularly related to like infrastructure and infrastructure under

1198
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:12,840
Speaker 1: anarchis right. I mean, we all know the basic principles

1199
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 1: a society UM related to autonomy allow people to define

1200
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 1: themselves and organize themselves on their own terms. UM horizontalism.

1201
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:25,960
Speaker 1: You know, people able to organize so that no one

1202
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:31,200
Speaker 1: dominates anyone else and no one exercises power UM move others.

1203
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,480
Speaker 1: Mutual aid, so the people able to help one another voluntarily,

1204
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 1: their bonds of solidarity and networks of generosity that keep

1205
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,880
Speaker 1: the social fabric together. You know. Free association allows people

1206
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:46,680
Speaker 1: to cooperate with who they want to and how they

1207
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:51,840
Speaker 1: see fit and also converously you know, refuse and disassociate

1208
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 1: when needs to be. Yeah, that's a key one that

1209
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 1: people don't emphasize it. Yeah, the free disassociation to not

1210
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 1: be associated it with certain people. Yeah yeah, I mean,

1211
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 1: because you can't freely associate. If you don't have the

1212
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: option to freely disassociate, it's like running into a cage

1213
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 1: and then you can't exit. Everyone should be able to

1214
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 1: move freely as well. Can emphasize which is I think

1215
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 1: one of the things that radicalized me most was, um,

1216
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:25,240
Speaker 1: the existence of borders, because to me, at least, like

1217
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:27,960
Speaker 1: when you're born, you know, you have this spawn point,

1218
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:31,920
Speaker 1: and it seems absurd to me that your spawn point

1219
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:37,519
Speaker 1: should have so much control over you know, the outcome

1220
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:40,920
Speaker 1: of your life, you know, what rights and stuff you enjoy,

1221
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:45,439
Speaker 1: and where you can and can't go freely because none

1222
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 1: of us have a choice in that matter. You know,

1223
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 1: we can't exactly choose our parents or choose or you know,

1224
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:53,840
Speaker 1: neighborhood or where we grew up whatever. And of course,

1225
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 1: borders of the national kind of the only ones. And

1226
01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:00,120
Speaker 1: I guess suppose you know, um you also put as

1227
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:04,640
Speaker 1: bort as related to gender and race and citizenship, and

1228
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:08,720
Speaker 1: well that's relates to borders. But yeah, and so how

1229
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 1: anarchists proposed we get to this society is first and

1230
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 1: foremost the people liberating themselves. The concept of self liberation.

1231
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 1: So people and not even speaking just in terms of workers,

1232
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 1: you know, speaking in terms of gender and sexual minorities,

1233
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 1: speaking to terms of racial groups, um, speaking in terms

1234
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:36,240
Speaker 1: of disabled people. You know, they must be at the

1235
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:39,599
Speaker 1: forefront of their own liberation. Freedom cannot be given, it

1236
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:43,840
Speaker 1: has to be taken. And so through direct action, which

1237
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:51,360
Speaker 1: is when we directly act, without the middle channels of

1238
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 1: authorities representatives, we make those changes for ourselves, and through

1239
01:18:56,120 --> 01:19:01,800
Speaker 1: other methods we pursue the world that we wish to

1240
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,719
Speaker 1: live in, which is the whole prefigurative process of building

1241
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 1: a new in the shell of the old. And so

1242
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 1: I think part of the issue when it comes to

1243
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 1: discussions of anarchism and infrastructure and supply lines and all

1244
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 1: these different things, is that, um, I think people have

1245
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:24,000
Speaker 1: this misconception. There's this real strange idea of what an

1246
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:28,000
Speaker 1: anarchist revolution looks like. Um, where you know, we flip

1247
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 1: a switch just overnight and boom anarchist society. We have

1248
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:36,960
Speaker 1: nothing in place, We have no organizations or systems or

1249
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 1: networks in places, just boom, staff of fingers and all

1250
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 1: of a sudden we are all living under anarchy. But

1251
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:49,320
Speaker 1: in reality, um, you know, as Kirpotkin expressed, there's no

1252
01:19:49,439 --> 01:19:53,080
Speaker 1: fallacy as harmful as the fallacy the One day revolution.

1253
01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 1: Obviously there's going to be a transition. UM. In fact,

1254
01:19:57,040 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people like to define anarchism as an

1255
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:04,519
Speaker 1: ongoing process moving food and food towards the ideal of anarchy. UM.

1256
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 1: The whole idea is not whether or not there will

1257
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:09,760
Speaker 1: be a transitional society or kind of transition that will be.

1258
01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:13,000
Speaker 1: And so in this period of transition is when we

1259
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:16,400
Speaker 1: would be engaging in the different forms of social experimentation

1260
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 1: to UM manifest you know, anarchist principles in every facet

1261
01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 1: of life. And of course this is a process will

1262
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 1: involved engaging with local conditions and UM local people and

1263
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:41,960
Speaker 1: allowing those communities, those individuals to the two in for themselves,

1264
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 1: what structures and systems are put in place. Part of

1265
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:50,680
Speaker 1: the struggle is going to involve mirroring the society that

1266
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:54,599
Speaker 1: we wish to create. So for our final goal is

1267
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, communistic and archistic society. That our methods must

1268
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:02,640
Speaker 1: be communistic kind as an artistic as possible, basic you know,

1269
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:07,240
Speaker 1: duality of means and ends. So when we speak of

1270
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:11,439
Speaker 1: supply lines, when we speak of infrastructure, the reality is

1271
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:15,280
Speaker 1: that existing infrastructure is not going to disippay overnight. Were

1272
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 1: are starting from complete scratch. This isn't a new you know,

1273
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:21,040
Speaker 1: minecraft world that we have to go and punch some

1274
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:25,480
Speaker 1: trees and start society all over again. Revolution is destructive,

1275
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:31,080
Speaker 1: but it's also constructive and transformative. So I mean, we're

1276
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 1: not going to get rid of all experts and all expertise.

1277
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 1: We're not going to be floundering to figure out how

1278
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:38,120
Speaker 1: to make penicillin. You know, people in all fields and

1279
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 1: all industries and all layers and all um you know

1280
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:46,519
Speaker 1: backgrounds are going to be involved in the process, you know,

1281
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:51,080
Speaker 1: adapting their work places, adapting the industries towards sustainable and

1282
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:53,960
Speaker 1: anarchic ends. And it's a process that is going on

1283
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:57,519
Speaker 1: now and will continue because if you know, we look

1284
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 1: at at revolution as a combination of I think Eric

1285
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 1: Ollen right, he had in his book Envisioning Real Real

1286
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 1: Utopias three basic concepts of transformation. You had ruptural transformation,

1287
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:20,120
Speaker 1: interstitial transformation, and symbiotic transformation. And so interstitial revolution is

1288
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:23,720
Speaker 1: basically the idea. Um It's basically a mirror of you know,

1289
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:27,880
Speaker 1: prefigurative politics as a theoretical means of societal transformation through

1290
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:34,360
Speaker 1: progressively and strategically enlarging spaces of social empowerment and ruptural

1291
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 1: transformation is of course, I guess, the dichotomy between the

1292
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:45,280
Speaker 1: insurrectionists and everybody else, you know, where you have these

1293
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:50,599
Speaker 1: moments of social outposts, these moments of rupture, where social

1294
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:58,200
Speaker 1: forms and social developments you know, undertaken and we sort

1295
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,840
Speaker 1: of figure out how we are, or rather we directly

1296
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 1: fight back against you know, the systems are in place.

1297
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:10,240
Speaker 1: I think rupture is one of the more exciting forms.

1298
01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:12,320
Speaker 1: It's a kind of form of revolution that people tend

1299
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:14,680
Speaker 1: to think of when they think of the tomb revolution,

1300
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:17,640
Speaker 1: this idea of you know, all these this is this

1301
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:22,880
Speaker 1: massive people that's crowd of people storming the bastille or whatever. Um.

1302
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:27,680
Speaker 1: But the real work of transformission is the stuff that occurs,

1303
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:33,040
Speaker 1: you know, prior to and post those moments of rupture. Well,

1304
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 1: I I one of the terms I tend to like

1305
01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:37,679
Speaker 1: that I've been thinking and reading about a lot is

1306
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,160
Speaker 1: is shatter zones. And these are this is like the

1307
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 1: post rupture, right, These are the areas where state power

1308
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:48,799
Speaker 1: kind of collapses, or at least pieces of state power collapse,

1309
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:52,040
Speaker 1: and it's you know, the the shatter zones were kind

1310
01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:54,360
Speaker 1: of you you see, the state retreat in the wake

1311
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:57,920
Speaker 1: of a rupture are where very terrible things tend to happen,

1312
01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:00,479
Speaker 1: but they are also these zones of possibility. You know.

1313
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 1: It's the places. It's the kind of place where you

1314
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 1: you can get an ethnic cleansing, and it's the kind

1315
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:08,599
Speaker 1: of place where you can get um rojava, you know,

1316
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:10,960
Speaker 1: like it's it's there. They're these kind of zones of

1317
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:14,719
Speaker 1: possibility in the wake of of rupture, and I think

1318
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:17,880
Speaker 1: that's you know, a lot of the a lot of

1319
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:22,839
Speaker 1: the revolutionary kind of um imagery focuses on on the rupture,

1320
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:28,160
Speaker 1: but the future is decided in the shatter zones, you know. Yeah.

1321
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:31,439
Speaker 1: And I think what people miss as well is the

1322
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:35,120
Speaker 1: stuff that builds up to those you know, shatter zoons,

1323
01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:42,360
Speaker 1: which is that their organizations, their affinity groups, their networks

1324
01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:45,639
Speaker 1: and structures in place that are able to support those zoons,

1325
01:24:45,880 --> 01:24:48,680
Speaker 1: that are able to you know, when those ruptures are

1326
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:52,439
Speaker 1: could support the people taking part in those fights and

1327
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 1: expand you know, those zoons of possibilities. Yeah, I mean

1328
01:24:57,400 --> 01:24:58,840
Speaker 1: This is the kind of thing where like if you're

1329
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:02,960
Speaker 1: looking at what what causes the difference between you know,

1330
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:07,920
Speaker 1: these disastrous, uh like disasters that happened kind of in

1331
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:10,360
Speaker 1: the wake of a rupture, horrible crimes against humanity, and

1332
01:25:10,479 --> 01:25:14,400
Speaker 1: situations where something better gets built. Like again to use

1333
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:18,000
Speaker 1: the example of Rajava. The reason why that happened there

1334
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:20,639
Speaker 1: and why isis didn't win in that terrain is that

1335
01:25:21,120 --> 01:25:25,080
Speaker 1: groups of activists had been organizing in a variety of

1336
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:28,200
Speaker 1: ways for years in that area, and so when the

1337
01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:31,639
Speaker 1: state collapsed, there were armed groups, and those armed groups

1338
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:34,720
Speaker 1: were supported by farming cooperatives and groups of people who

1339
01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:37,479
Speaker 1: had been organizing to provide supplies to each other and

1340
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 1: um like community organizations like focused on social like development

1341
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:47,840
Speaker 1: and aid like there was. It's it's yeah, there's an

1342
01:25:49,080 --> 01:25:52,320
Speaker 1: exactly exactly and that's that's what when you know, things

1343
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:57,559
Speaker 1: fall down and you could catch Yeah. And I think

1344
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,080
Speaker 1: that's also because there's another way this can go to

1345
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:03,160
Speaker 1: where it's like you get a lot of moments where

1346
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:06,880
Speaker 1: you know, like like May sixty eight in France looks

1347
01:26:06,920 --> 01:26:10,800
Speaker 1: like this right where like like the like the prime

1348
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:14,559
Speaker 1: minister at the present, I forget what deal was at

1349
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:17,439
Speaker 1: that time. But that's like you like literally like the

1350
01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:21,400
Speaker 1: country's leaders are flying out of the country on helicopters

1351
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 1: because I think everything is going to collapse and then

1352
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 1: it just sort of doesn't. And I think one of

1353
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:28,360
Speaker 1: one of the ways you get you get this period

1354
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:32,519
Speaker 1: that looks like rupture but then everything sort of closes

1355
01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:35,400
Speaker 1: back up in on itself is if those networks aren't

1356
01:26:35,439 --> 01:26:38,879
Speaker 1: strong enough and you don't have some kind of sufficient

1357
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:41,759
Speaker 1: level of organization, like there there isn't there isn't anything.

1358
01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:45,040
Speaker 1: It's like it's like you have these moments where the

1359
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:49,600
Speaker 1: state is discredited but there's nothing to replace it, and

1360
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:52,720
Speaker 1: then the and the sort of void, the void isn't

1361
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:57,040
Speaker 1: strong enough to just sort of like have the state

1362
01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 1: collapsed entirely. And so what you guys at this moment

1363
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:02,360
Speaker 1: where it looks like everything is going to change and

1364
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:05,240
Speaker 1: then nothing happens. And I think that's also a product

1365
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:09,439
Speaker 1: of essentially the same thing. It's just depending on the

1366
01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:12,280
Speaker 1: strength of the state, you can get very different sort

1367
01:27:12,280 --> 01:27:14,920
Speaker 1: of outcomes from these moments where sometimes it's able to

1368
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:18,400
Speaker 1: restabilize it self, sometimes it isn't. Right, Yeah, And I

1369
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:20,800
Speaker 1: think we kind of saw that in a way with

1370
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:26,120
Speaker 1: protests where you had this massive, massive rupture, probably the

1371
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:30,719
Speaker 1: largest one of the largest American history. Um yeah, people

1372
01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:34,440
Speaker 1: in the streets and cities all over the country. Um

1373
01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:37,120
Speaker 1: it's what's the vast majority of them were just peaceful marches,

1374
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:40,639
Speaker 1: but you also did have some like serious movements of rupture,

1375
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:45,840
Speaker 1: like in Minneapolis and stuff. And I mean look at us,

1376
01:27:46,479 --> 01:27:51,760
Speaker 1: you know, two years later, and while they are you know,

1377
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:55,720
Speaker 1: more community organizations, I think they're more people who are

1378
01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:58,120
Speaker 1: a bit more conscious, with more whale who are you know,

1379
01:27:58,280 --> 01:28:04,200
Speaker 1: radicalized and expanded their knowledge through that rupture, things basically

1380
01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 1: went back to the way they were in a lot

1381
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:11,000
Speaker 1: of ways and other ways, you know, police budgets were

1382
01:28:11,040 --> 01:28:14,680
Speaker 1: just increased. I think there was a current with the

1383
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:16,439
Speaker 1: analogy but I'll just go to the analogy of like

1384
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:21,040
Speaker 1: a hydro, where you know, the state, whatever it's attacked

1385
01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:24,080
Speaker 1: and stuff, it's able to just restore itself, just able

1386
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:27,799
Speaker 1: to recover itself and able to like adapt to those

1387
01:28:28,160 --> 01:28:32,439
Speaker 1: sorts of attacks. I remember reading in Tone of Everything

1388
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:37,720
Speaker 1: where the David's were talking about how the state they're

1389
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:39,680
Speaker 1: using the example the American state. They were saying, you know,

1390
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:44,800
Speaker 1: the American state of right is completely different in a

1391
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 1: lot of ways from the American state of the two

1392
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:52,400
Speaker 1: thous you know, because the the state and statecraft is

1393
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:58,240
Speaker 1: constantly evolving, constantly expanding, constantly responding to you know, the

1394
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:00,920
Speaker 1: conditions that they face. We saw what happened in the

1395
01:29:01,080 --> 01:29:04,479
Speaker 1: twentieth century, you know, the different movements that I could

1396
01:29:04,479 --> 01:29:07,320
Speaker 1: in that time, the state was able to respond to

1397
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:17,760
Speaker 1: those movements and adjust itself accordingly. And so obviously when

1398
01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:22,799
Speaker 1: we have these ruptures, we have these you know, moments

1399
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:26,840
Speaker 1: of struggle, and obviously the times in between where we

1400
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:33,719
Speaker 1: are prefiguring um robust systems and alternative institutions that can

1401
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:38,000
Speaker 1: support people those moments of rupture. Um. Part of that

1402
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:45,160
Speaker 1: isn't going to involve you know, defense, and the sue

1403
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:49,040
Speaker 1: is not, oh, well, how you defend revolution? Christ to

1404
01:29:49,080 --> 01:29:51,680
Speaker 1: want to defend revolution, They don't know how to defend revolution.

1405
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:55,080
Speaker 1: But rather part of defending it is defending it from

1406
01:29:56,880 --> 01:30:02,120
Speaker 1: people's attempts to seize power from the masses, from the

1407
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:06,400
Speaker 1: working class. Two you know, cipher and that energy and

1408
01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:12,960
Speaker 1: use it for the ends of smaller group, smaller class

1409
01:30:13,080 --> 01:30:17,640
Speaker 1: of you know, whether it being partties or whatever the

1410
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:21,240
Speaker 1: case may be. Yeah, there's something there I think you're

1411
01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:25,080
Speaker 1: going back to like thinking about borders and freedom of movement,

1412
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:28,160
Speaker 1: because if you look at like both the USSR and

1413
01:30:28,240 --> 01:30:32,160
Speaker 1: China do this very quickly, which is that, okay, so

1414
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:34,680
Speaker 1: you you you you have the communist revolution, okay, and

1415
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 1: theoretically class and power, and then like the first thing

1416
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:39,120
Speaker 1: they do is set up in turn of border controls

1417
01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:44,800
Speaker 1: and these like like I mean in China that they're

1418
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:51,479
Speaker 1: technically like the the prohibition on movement is like technically over,

1419
01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:55,800
Speaker 1: but the like the household registration system still exists, and

1420
01:30:55,840 --> 01:30:57,920
Speaker 1: it's still determines whether you where you can get benefits

1421
01:30:57,960 --> 01:30:59,640
Speaker 1: and how you get benefits and whether you can live

1422
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:03,080
Speaker 1: in a say and like what like how what's so

1423
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:05,639
Speaker 1: security you can access? Can you buy houses? Things like that,

1424
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:11,560
Speaker 1: like that kind of stuff. If if you're not if

1425
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:15,080
Speaker 1: if what you're doing is just putting a group of

1426
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:19,080
Speaker 1: people in power and not actually putting you know, like

1427
01:31:19,479 --> 01:31:21,360
Speaker 1: if you want to talk about it in class terms, right,

1428
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:25,639
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, either the actual working class governs itself,

1429
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:30,000
Speaker 1: like the class in the entirety collectively makes decisions, or

1430
01:31:30,240 --> 01:31:32,400
Speaker 1: you've just created to do like buacrat class. And if

1431
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:33,840
Speaker 1: you wind up with a new baruracract classes like yeah,

1432
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:36,040
Speaker 1: immediately look at what happens. It's like, oh, hey, a

1433
01:31:36,080 --> 01:31:38,360
Speaker 1: bunch of people have now decided that, like you can't

1434
01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:40,960
Speaker 1: leave your home province because you don't have the right registration.

1435
01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:44,799
Speaker 1: And it's like okay. It's like that kind of reminds

1436
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:46,400
Speaker 1: me what you were saying about, you know, if all

1437
01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:48,519
Speaker 1: the looking classes was met with the steam reminds you

1438
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:51,720
Speaker 1: of the video I was watching last night actually from

1439
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:58,639
Speaker 1: this Youtuba Anak Daniel Brian Um and he was talking

1440
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:05,920
Speaker 1: about I believe how the state is necessarily um exclusive.

1441
01:32:06,560 --> 01:32:12,000
Speaker 1: If everybody holds power, then the state necessarily um must

1442
01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:14,519
Speaker 1: be wiped out, must be wipe to it. If not,

1443
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:17,519
Speaker 1: it's going to try to reclaim its monopoly on power,

1444
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:23,120
Speaker 1: it's monopoly on violence. UM. It cannot exist without people

1445
01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 1: under it, you know. And so as you know, we

1446
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:33,799
Speaker 1: are engaging in this as we are you know, organizing strikes,

1447
01:32:33,840 --> 01:32:39,400
Speaker 1: creating networks of activists, creating assemblies UM, creating you know,

1448
01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 1: self financed schools and social centers and co operatives and

1449
01:32:46,040 --> 01:32:51,800
Speaker 1: all these different forms of infrastructure that can weather and

1450
01:32:51,920 --> 01:32:58,560
Speaker 1: exists under capitalism, but serve as prefigurations of all potential

1451
01:32:58,720 --> 01:33:03,639
Speaker 1: beyond capitalism. And so I guess the pivot um back

1452
01:33:03,640 --> 01:33:06,839
Speaker 1: to the topic I was speaking of in the beginning

1453
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:11,800
Speaker 1: with regard to infrastructure. You know, all of history books

1454
01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:14,719
Speaker 1: and stuff, general history books tend to speak of the government,

1455
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:18,200
Speaker 1: centralized government, states and souff arising all do they need

1456
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:21,920
Speaker 1: to build and maintain like these big infrastructure projects. They

1457
01:33:21,920 --> 01:33:25,280
Speaker 1: tend to use example of irrigation. It's taken for granted,

1458
01:33:25,439 --> 01:33:28,760
Speaker 1: you know, staken as a given that bureaucracies and such

1459
01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 1: were necessary for organizing these large populations, and that while

1460
01:33:32,160 --> 01:33:34,080
Speaker 1: you know, the Galter and principles may thrive in a

1461
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:38,040
Speaker 1: small scale, they just cannot scale up when populations get

1462
01:33:38,080 --> 01:33:41,240
Speaker 1: any bigger than like a small band of people. But

1463
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:46,520
Speaker 1: what we do know is that complex rural irrigation systems

1464
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:49,679
Speaker 1: and the Galter and urban decision making systems have occuld

1465
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:52,960
Speaker 1: in you know, human history, that our answers were able

1466
01:33:53,000 --> 01:33:56,640
Speaker 1: to organize those those institutions without the state, without a

1467
01:33:56,680 --> 01:34:02,760
Speaker 1: centralized body, with a h with with cosive you know, authority.

1468
01:34:05,160 --> 01:34:08,120
Speaker 1: There's also like this implicit assumption, you know, when people

1469
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:13,840
Speaker 1: make these assolutions, that societies must necessarily grow and endlessly grew,

1470
01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 1: and that we cannot choose to limit our scale in

1471
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:22,040
Speaker 1: any way to avoid centralization, to enhance eqalitarianism. You know,

1472
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:25,479
Speaker 1: we can't skeeal ourselves down to more manageable levels a

1473
01:34:25,840 --> 01:34:30,880
Speaker 1: d growth um. And as we've see, that's just not true.

1474
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:35,760
Speaker 1: You know, we are capable of making those shifts. You know,

1475
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:40,599
Speaker 1: large scale projects like irrigation or or you know, supply

1476
01:34:40,760 --> 01:34:44,439
Speaker 1: lines and stuff. They do require coordination, but coordination is

1477
01:34:44,479 --> 01:34:49,599
Speaker 1: not synonymous with the state. Coordination is not synonymous with hierarchy. Yeah,

1478
01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:52,120
Speaker 1: and that's something that's interest It's interesting to me the

1479
01:34:52,160 --> 01:34:56,080
Speaker 1: way people, like how badly people think about that because

1480
01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:59,280
Speaker 1: like even even even in terms of sort of like

1481
01:34:59,479 --> 01:35:03,840
Speaker 1: im berking tal is trade right, like that kind of

1482
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:07,240
Speaker 1: like long range coordination, long range like moving goods across

1483
01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:12,880
Speaker 1: the world has like it's but mostly not been states

1484
01:35:12,920 --> 01:35:16,519
Speaker 1: doing that. Like it's you know, and you can talk

1485
01:35:16,520 --> 01:35:19,400
Speaker 1: about like, okay, whatever, it's like it's however, you sort

1486
01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:21,559
Speaker 1: of want to think about the market mechanisms here, but like, yeah,

1487
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:25,559
Speaker 1: like people have been people, people have been moving stuff

1488
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:27,920
Speaker 1: from one side of the world to the other, like

1489
01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:30,519
Speaker 1: essentially without the state having anything to do with it

1490
01:35:30,640 --> 01:35:34,680
Speaker 1: for like as long as there have been people exactly.

1491
01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:37,760
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that frustrates me

1492
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:41,200
Speaker 1: most about the discourse about like any kind of post capitalism,

1493
01:35:41,320 --> 01:35:46,080
Speaker 1: is this um this purposefully. I think in a lot

1494
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:51,360
Speaker 1: of cases like malignant ly um inaccurate um attitude that

1495
01:35:51,479 --> 01:35:57,840
Speaker 1: like the idea of people like exchanging goods and services

1496
01:35:57,840 --> 01:36:01,120
Speaker 1: is fundamentally capitalist. That the idea of people like organizing

1497
01:36:01,120 --> 01:36:03,880
Speaker 1: that the that like a factory right is something that

1498
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:07,240
Speaker 1: has to be has to be either organized under capitalist

1499
01:36:07,280 --> 01:36:13,200
Speaker 1: models or under state socialist models exactly as if people

1500
01:36:13,360 --> 01:36:15,960
Speaker 1: haven't done it in other ways. Right, this is not theoretical.

1501
01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:17,800
Speaker 1: We're not like trying to pose it like, well maybe

1502
01:36:17,800 --> 01:36:19,680
Speaker 1: it could work this way. It's like, no, motherfucker's have

1503
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:26,160
Speaker 1: done this. Yeah, we have practical examples even, Yeah, because

1504
01:36:26,160 --> 01:36:29,080
Speaker 1: stuff like the mon Dragon Corporation and whatnot, Like it's

1505
01:36:29,080 --> 01:36:33,280
Speaker 1: not um, it's like it's this is not like theoretical

1506
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:35,960
Speaker 1: stuff that we're talking about. I was thinking more long

1507
01:36:36,040 --> 01:36:39,240
Speaker 1: lines of what happened in Argentina. Yeah, yeah, you don't

1508
01:36:41,200 --> 01:36:45,519
Speaker 1: something going back as you know, like the CNT get

1509
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:49,519
Speaker 1: into Yeah yeah, yeah, like that's something. Well, I mean,

1510
01:36:49,520 --> 01:36:50,920
Speaker 1: I think I think part of what's happening there is.

1511
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:54,679
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, like people have run factories in other ways,

1512
01:36:54,720 --> 01:36:56,880
Speaker 1: and every single time they try to do it, every

1513
01:36:56,920 --> 01:36:59,479
Speaker 1: other political faction on Earth sets out, set aside all

1514
01:36:59,479 --> 01:37:01,840
Speaker 1: their political which just goes and tries to kill them,

1515
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:06,280
Speaker 1: and it's like this is not that's that's true. That's true.

1516
01:37:06,439 --> 01:37:08,800
Speaker 1: I'm also reminded of the fact that you know part

1517
01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:11,680
Speaker 1: of what happened and probably assue that you know, it

1518
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:15,639
Speaker 1: could in Argentina and as I could elsewhere. Um is

1519
01:37:16,479 --> 01:37:19,760
Speaker 1: this concept that I think Michael albert Um talks about

1520
01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:22,559
Speaker 1: a lot, this idea how they coordinates a class and

1521
01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:24,839
Speaker 1: the issues that arise out of that sort of coordinates

1522
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:29,360
Speaker 1: a class, And so I think part of that sort

1523
01:37:29,360 --> 01:37:31,560
Speaker 1: of organization is going to involve confronting that, you know,

1524
01:37:31,600 --> 01:37:33,760
Speaker 1: we tend to think of it in terms of, you know,

1525
01:37:34,120 --> 01:37:37,600
Speaker 1: the capitalist ownership and getting rid of the capitalist but

1526
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:43,320
Speaker 1: there's you know, a lot more play than than just

1527
01:37:43,320 --> 01:37:48,719
Speaker 1: just the capitalist kind of the firm is the firm.

1528
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:52,040
Speaker 1: I think it's also like this sort of assumption that

1529
01:37:52,360 --> 01:37:55,720
Speaker 1: people aren't capable of like taking any kind of you know,

1530
01:37:56,280 --> 01:37:58,120
Speaker 1: I think there's this kind of way to submition that

1531
01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:02,759
Speaker 1: people aren't capable of taking initiative that people aren't capable

1532
01:38:02,800 --> 01:38:06,200
Speaker 1: of of, you know, um, seeing the needs around them

1533
01:38:06,240 --> 01:38:10,000
Speaker 1: and organizing to fulfill them. So when people end up,

1534
01:38:10,160 --> 01:38:12,640
Speaker 1: you know, trying to do these scultures and stuff with

1535
01:38:12,760 --> 01:38:14,280
Speaker 1: archists like oh well, how are you going to do

1536
01:38:14,360 --> 01:38:19,680
Speaker 1: with garbage? It's like people don't like garbage around them,

1537
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:22,839
Speaker 1: you know, which is why we have a sanitation system,

1538
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 1: which is why we have corbage disposal systems in place.

1539
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:32,519
Speaker 1: But you know, under this system, because everything is all

1540
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:35,519
Speaker 1: the costs of you know, our consumption and stuff are

1541
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:39,160
Speaker 1: externalized and hidden, people don't have to think about the

1542
01:38:39,200 --> 01:38:43,360
Speaker 1: ways that you know, our actions are affecting our local

1543
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:47,240
Speaker 1: um you know ecosystem. You know, we see that we

1544
01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:49,640
Speaker 1: pay other countries to or at least one like I

1545
01:38:49,720 --> 01:38:53,880
Speaker 1: say a week um, the US, the USPS, other countries.

1546
01:38:54,400 --> 01:38:56,040
Speaker 1: I mean, we have a problem and in turned out

1547
01:38:56,080 --> 01:38:58,920
Speaker 1: as well, where all of our waste um just gets

1548
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:03,400
Speaker 1: dumped like right next amount groove and there's a community

1549
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:08,759
Speaker 1: right opposite the highway where the dump is located, and

1550
01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:11,720
Speaker 1: you know they burnt garbage day and it's like the

1551
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:14,439
Speaker 1: bunt garbage is like a constant smell of boont garbage

1552
01:39:14,439 --> 01:39:16,920
Speaker 1: around that community and it's of course the most impoverished

1553
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:22,400
Speaker 1: community in the country, and it's it's a whole thing. Um,

1554
01:39:22,400 --> 01:39:27,240
Speaker 1: But I digress. You know, when we aren't able to

1555
01:39:27,479 --> 01:39:31,599
Speaker 1: just you know, externalize the costs of you know, how

1556
01:39:31,640 --> 01:39:35,880
Speaker 1: we live, communities are able to you know, notice how

1557
01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:38,280
Speaker 1: to you know, who notice the problem and figure out

1558
01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:40,320
Speaker 1: who used to handle it, you know, whether it be

1559
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:44,679
Speaker 1: um small rewards people who volunteer to you know, deal

1560
01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:51,240
Speaker 1: with trash um or you know, just there's people who

1561
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 1: enjoy doing that as well, you know, UM and the

1562
01:39:55,120 --> 01:40:01,639
Speaker 1: same goes for other undesirable jobs or you know, people

1563
01:40:01,680 --> 01:40:04,440
Speaker 1: have decided to go on like a routating basis. And

1564
01:40:04,479 --> 01:40:06,080
Speaker 1: the reality is, you know, we don't have to like

1565
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:12,320
Speaker 1: define our lives around a career, so you know, a

1566
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:15,040
Speaker 1: person doesn't have to be entirely like a garbage collector.

1567
01:40:15,800 --> 01:40:17,599
Speaker 1: On top of that, you know, as we scale down

1568
01:40:17,640 --> 01:40:20,639
Speaker 1: the mount of garbage we produce, that task would become

1569
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:23,720
Speaker 1: you know, less and less necessary. Yeah, so you know

1570
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:27,320
Speaker 1: what waste infrastructure people are able to take care of that.

1571
01:40:27,400 --> 01:40:30,599
Speaker 1: You know, we can't externalize those sorts of issues. UM

1572
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:35,120
Speaker 1: with food infrastructure, you know, we're able to like for example,

1573
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:38,040
Speaker 1: in in the title Hills region of what is now Kenya.

1574
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:41,360
Speaker 1: You know, people were able to create these complex irrigation

1575
01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:44,920
Speaker 1: systems that you know, lasted hundreds of years before you know,

1576
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:49,160
Speaker 1: colonial states moved in and ended these agricultural practices. You know,

1577
01:40:49,200 --> 01:40:51,600
Speaker 1: the back then, you know, the households would share the

1578
01:40:51,680 --> 01:40:54,000
Speaker 1: day to day means and the uns of that irrigation infrastructure.

1579
01:40:54,320 --> 01:40:56,160
Speaker 1: You know, everyone will take care of the part of

1580
01:40:56,200 --> 01:40:59,360
Speaker 1: the infrastructure that was closest where they lived. And you know,

1581
01:40:59,720 --> 01:41:04,880
Speaker 1: as it was commons, people enjoyed it in common, people

1582
01:41:05,200 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 1: maintained it in common, people benefited in common. People will

1583
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:17,960
Speaker 1: also come together um periodically for like major repairs. And

1584
01:41:18,000 --> 01:41:21,759
Speaker 1: it was a form of collective, socially motivated rule work

1585
01:41:22,320 --> 01:41:26,000
Speaker 1: that we see in many other you know, essentialized societies.

1586
01:41:26,320 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 1: And often he had um conversations where I often read about,

1587
01:41:32,439 --> 01:41:36,280
Speaker 1: you know, these different societies and even on the capitalism

1588
01:41:36,320 --> 01:41:40,920
Speaker 1: you have communities that you know, when someone needs somewhere

1589
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:43,120
Speaker 1: to live, the whole community gets together and helps them

1590
01:41:43,120 --> 01:41:45,920
Speaker 1: build their house. And when someone else needs somewhere to live,

1591
01:41:45,960 --> 01:41:48,240
Speaker 1: you know, everyone gets together and builds their houps and

1592
01:41:48,240 --> 01:41:51,000
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. You know, people already doing

1593
01:41:51,080 --> 01:41:53,920
Speaker 1: this in parts of the world. These systems already in

1594
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:56,560
Speaker 1: place in parts of the world, these sort of reciprocal

1595
01:41:57,760 --> 01:42:02,720
Speaker 1: networks of of of support UM. And I mean whether

1596
01:42:02,760 --> 01:42:07,600
Speaker 1: you're talking transportation or power, or communications, or housing or

1597
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:12,599
Speaker 1: food or healthcare, there's a precedent set. You know. These

1598
01:42:12,600 --> 01:42:15,760
Speaker 1: presidents may have certain flows, but we could study them,

1599
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:20,439
Speaker 1: we can learn from them, and we could establish something better.

1600
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:23,200
Speaker 1: You know. For example, like as we mentioned earlier in

1601
01:42:23,200 --> 01:42:25,880
Speaker 1: Anarchists Spain, Right and Felt. During the Spanish Civil War,

1602
01:42:26,479 --> 01:42:31,000
Speaker 1: Barcelona's Medical Syndicate, which is organized largely by anarchists, managed

1603
01:42:31,040 --> 01:42:35,560
Speaker 1: eighteen hospitals, six of which they had created, seventeen sanatoriums,

1604
01:42:35,920 --> 01:42:40,360
Speaker 1: twenty two clinics, six psychiatric established ones, three nurseries, and

1605
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:44,879
Speaker 1: one motility hospital. Whenever they had a request, the syndicate

1606
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:49,320
Speaker 1: would send doctors to places in need, because medicine was

1607
01:42:49,360 --> 01:42:51,600
Speaker 1: considered to be in suis of the community, not the

1608
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:54,320
Speaker 1: other way around. You know. Funds these clinics would come

1609
01:42:54,320 --> 01:42:59,640
Speaker 1: from the contributions of like local municipalities, and this syndicate

1610
01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:05,080
Speaker 1: UM had a health workers union that included eight thousand

1611
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:11,760
Speaker 1: health workers dying, operated three six health centers and distributed

1612
01:43:11,880 --> 01:43:15,519
Speaker 1: through Catalonia and fried Health get to everyone in the region.

1613
01:43:17,720 --> 01:43:21,080
Speaker 1: And these syndicates would send delegates you know, um to

1614
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:23,439
Speaker 1: Barcelona and they would be able to deal with common

1615
01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:27,720
Speaker 1: problems and implement common plans. But every department was both

1616
01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:33,880
Speaker 1: autonomous but also not isolated, so they supported one another

1617
01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:38,240
Speaker 1: where needs to be and under the CNT. You know,

1618
01:43:38,280 --> 01:43:45,400
Speaker 1: we also see like lands being taken by peasants syndicates um,

1619
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:52,599
Speaker 1: who would organized properties and allow equal community to take

1620
01:43:52,640 --> 01:43:56,000
Speaker 1: care of you know, their land and their animals and

1621
01:43:56,120 --> 01:44:00,000
Speaker 1: you know, their crops as needs be. Yeah, there were

1622
01:44:00,040 --> 01:44:02,160
Speaker 1: something I've been the more I've read about it, the

1623
01:44:02,160 --> 01:44:06,679
Speaker 1: more impressed I've been with the way that I guess

1624
01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:09,640
Speaker 1: you would call it like the like the anarchists in

1625
01:44:09,640 --> 01:44:13,160
Speaker 1: Spain like did basically did a universal healthcare program in

1626
01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:16,200
Speaker 1: one year in the middle of the civil war, and

1627
01:44:16,280 --> 01:44:18,240
Speaker 1: like you know, and like the I think the other

1628
01:44:18,240 --> 01:44:19,760
Speaker 1: thing about it that that was important is it like

1629
01:44:19,800 --> 01:44:25,320
Speaker 1: they were able to, like they had this whole program

1630
01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 1: that was about like sending like sending doctors into the

1631
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:31,000
Speaker 1: countryside to get to like into committees that have never

1632
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:34,439
Speaker 1: actually had regular access to medical care before. And they're

1633
01:44:34,479 --> 01:44:38,599
Speaker 1: able to do this extremely quickly and had a system

1634
01:44:38,720 --> 01:44:42,040
Speaker 1: the benefits of which are like enormously better than like

1635
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:50,360
Speaker 1: basically like if you can go find I'm forgetting the exactly,

1636
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:53,920
Speaker 1: but like you can go find like their their their

1637
01:44:53,960 --> 01:44:56,760
Speaker 1: policy for like how much time off you can get

1638
01:44:56,800 --> 01:44:59,479
Speaker 1: for like an injury and stuff, and it's like, yeah,

1639
01:44:59,520 --> 01:45:01,599
Speaker 1: you can take you can get like six months, eight

1640
01:45:01,600 --> 01:45:05,800
Speaker 1: months off at like full pay, like people family will

1641
01:45:05,800 --> 01:45:07,240
Speaker 1: be provided for. Like they had. They had all of

1642
01:45:07,240 --> 01:45:12,479
Speaker 1: this just like incredible, like health care infrastructure. They they're

1643
01:45:12,520 --> 01:45:18,280
Speaker 1: able to set up like really really fast. Yeah, yeah,

1644
01:45:18,400 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 1: because they also had you know, these regional federations of

1645
01:45:21,080 --> 01:45:28,160
Speaker 1: different collectives and they were able to basically you know,

1646
01:45:28,439 --> 01:45:34,559
Speaker 1: distributes surplus goods and distribute as you said, healthcare, and

1647
01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, basically pool infrastructure so that everybody are the

1648
01:45:39,040 --> 01:45:42,920
Speaker 1: pool resources so that everybody was able to benefit. You know,

1649
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:46,960
Speaker 1: they often pool resources for things where you know areas

1650
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:51,280
Speaker 1: well unevenly developed, you know, so that you know, more

1651
01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:57,520
Speaker 1: um developed regions able to help other regions improve their infrastructure,

1652
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:00,760
Speaker 1: you know, build roads and canals and hospitals as this.

1653
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:04,240
Speaker 1: When I read about you know, what happened Cantonia, I'm

1654
01:46:04,240 --> 01:46:05,880
Speaker 1: not seeing they were perfect they definitely had a lot

1655
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:09,120
Speaker 1: of issues when I read what what happened there, you know,

1656
01:46:09,240 --> 01:46:13,760
Speaker 1: in the midst of a civil war, Um, the possibilities

1657
01:46:13,800 --> 01:46:23,160
Speaker 1: that room present and what could have potentially happened further along, Um,

1658
01:46:23,200 --> 01:46:31,240
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's very inspiring. Yeah, And I

1659
01:46:31,280 --> 01:46:34,600
Speaker 1: think it goes back to the sort of the the

1660
01:46:34,680 --> 01:46:37,040
Speaker 1: point we've been we've been talking about, which is that

1661
01:46:37,160 --> 01:46:42,640
Speaker 1: like the capacity to provide care for people, the capacity

1662
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:45,200
Speaker 1: to do stuff like this exists in our society, right.

1663
01:46:45,240 --> 01:46:46,760
Speaker 1: It's not something that has to be just sort of

1664
01:46:46,800 --> 01:46:50,640
Speaker 1: just like completely manufactured from the ground up. It's just

1665
01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:54,640
Speaker 1: that the capacity is not being used to actually like

1666
01:46:54,840 --> 01:46:57,200
Speaker 1: give to the benefits of people what they need. Is like, well, okay,

1667
01:46:57,200 --> 01:47:01,200
Speaker 1: it's not a it's it's it's it's less like a

1668
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:04,439
Speaker 1: process of just completely reconstructing the society and more a

1669
01:47:04,560 --> 01:47:08,479
Speaker 1: process of like, hey, why don't we use the resources

1670
01:47:08,560 --> 01:47:10,680
Speaker 1: we already have to do the things that are like

1671
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:16,000
Speaker 1: actually useful. And people for some reason think that likes

1672
01:47:16,040 --> 01:47:17,960
Speaker 1: being true if you don't have a state, and it's

1673
01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:24,160
Speaker 1: like no, like the state disappearing to every single doctor

1674
01:47:24,240 --> 01:47:27,240
Speaker 1: suddenly vanishes from the face of the earth, Like yeah,

1675
01:47:27,280 --> 01:47:30,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean every single salentation we suddenly disappears every

1676
01:47:30,160 --> 01:47:33,280
Speaker 1: single construction we because suddenly disappears every single like every

1677
01:47:33,280 --> 01:47:38,479
Speaker 1: every teach us and disappears every Yeah. Yeah, like I said,

1678
01:47:38,520 --> 01:47:40,559
Speaker 1: we're not starts and from like a new Minecraft food

1679
01:47:40,640 --> 01:47:42,160
Speaker 1: you know, you not to go and kill the end

1680
01:47:42,200 --> 01:47:48,160
Speaker 1: of dragon and all that. But um, I mean, I

1681
01:47:48,160 --> 01:47:50,600
Speaker 1: guess that's a that's a good place to wrap up. Basically,

1682
01:47:51,439 --> 01:47:55,840
Speaker 1: we have these possibilities we always have, UM and in

1683
01:47:55,840 --> 01:47:59,360
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, the state and you know, capitalism

1684
01:47:59,439 --> 01:48:04,679
Speaker 1: and all these other um manifestations of hierarchy holding us back.

1685
01:48:04,920 --> 01:48:10,519
Speaker 1: They're preventing us from reaching all full creative the full

1686
01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:14,880
Speaker 1: unleashing of our creative potential as people. Yeah, we should

1687
01:48:14,880 --> 01:48:19,680
Speaker 1: do that instead of this. Yeah, we should do this

1688
01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:23,320
Speaker 1: instead of that, you know, rather, we should do that

1689
01:48:23,400 --> 01:48:29,880
Speaker 1: instead of this. Yeah. Well, Andrew, thank you so much.

1690
01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:32,200
Speaker 1: Where can where can people follow you? I believe I

1691
01:48:32,240 --> 01:48:34,360
Speaker 1: believe you just put out a new a new video

1692
01:48:34,439 --> 01:48:38,800
Speaker 1: this week if I'm remembering correctly. Yes, I don't know

1693
01:48:38,800 --> 01:48:42,320
Speaker 1: if they will hear this episode before my next video

1694
01:48:42,400 --> 01:48:46,679
Speaker 1: is out, um, but um you can find me on

1695
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:50,200
Speaker 1: YouTube dot com slash Andrewism and you can find me

1696
01:48:50,240 --> 01:48:55,639
Speaker 1: on Twitter at under school saying true. Awesome. Alright, well

1697
01:48:56,320 --> 01:49:18,879
Speaker 1: go start a hospital. Lookt hi everybody, Wow, you served

1698
01:49:19,200 --> 01:49:21,760
Speaker 1: Jesus Sharne. Oh, I thought that's what Sophie said I

1699
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:23,960
Speaker 1: should do. I should I know you did that. You

1700
01:49:24,000 --> 01:49:26,320
Speaker 1: did the right thing. I'm the one being an asshole here. Okay,

1701
01:49:26,360 --> 01:49:30,439
Speaker 1: well this is Sharine. This is also what can happen here.

1702
01:49:30,960 --> 01:49:34,840
Speaker 1: It's a podcast that happens every day that I am

1703
01:49:34,920 --> 01:49:38,479
Speaker 1: now on. Um, what is it about again? It's about

1704
01:49:39,600 --> 01:49:44,280
Speaker 1: everything happening here. Yes, it's about everything happening here. And

1705
01:49:44,520 --> 01:49:48,639
Speaker 1: this week's episode is about my neighbor Dave, who appears

1706
01:49:48,680 --> 01:49:51,920
Speaker 1: to be gardening. No, that's not what this show is about.

1707
01:49:51,920 --> 01:49:56,400
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. No, society is crumbling and how maybe we

1708
01:49:56,439 --> 01:49:59,200
Speaker 1: could put it back to here? There it is? That's what. Yeah,

1709
01:49:59,400 --> 01:50:03,439
Speaker 1: that's what. That's what is Wantinginess is going to take

1710
01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:06,320
Speaker 1: lead today. But we also have Christopher Long, Robert Evans,

1711
01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:09,479
Speaker 1: and it is me Sophie. Yes, that's good to see that.

1712
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:10,880
Speaker 1: This is what I'm going to keep in mind next

1713
01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:12,280
Speaker 1: time if I ever have to do this again. Like

1714
01:50:12,320 --> 01:50:14,559
Speaker 1: what in trowing this show means? But it is a

1715
01:50:14,640 --> 01:50:17,920
Speaker 1: daily show so I have a lot of opportunities to

1716
01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:21,320
Speaker 1: get this right. Um yeah. I wanted to do something

1717
01:50:21,320 --> 01:50:25,840
Speaker 1: a little different today. So hopefully the listeners are okay

1718
01:50:25,880 --> 01:50:29,800
Speaker 1: with it, be easy on me well, and if they're not,

1719
01:50:29,840 --> 01:50:33,160
Speaker 1: we will simply club them into submission. Um yeah, Well

1720
01:50:33,240 --> 01:50:36,640
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Um. I live for violence. That is

1721
01:50:36,680 --> 01:50:39,800
Speaker 1: why we've spent half of our years podcasting budget on

1722
01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:48,320
Speaker 1: she ailes Um. But I wanted to take a couple

1723
01:50:48,360 --> 01:50:51,439
Speaker 1: episodes to talk about something very important that I don't

1724
01:50:51,439 --> 01:50:53,640
Speaker 1: think it's not a lot like enough news coverage, and

1725
01:50:53,640 --> 01:50:56,839
Speaker 1: I want to talk about Palestine, and this first episode

1726
01:50:56,840 --> 01:51:01,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to focus on how bias these coverages as

1727
01:51:01,120 --> 01:51:05,760
Speaker 1: far as depicting what's happening in Palestine in Israel. So

1728
01:51:05,920 --> 01:51:09,400
Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna talk about today. So are you ready?

1729
01:51:09,520 --> 01:51:12,080
Speaker 1: Are you all strapped in? I'm gonna start talking at

1730
01:51:12,080 --> 01:51:16,559
Speaker 1: you guys for a long time. Oh yeah, okay. At

1731
01:51:16,560 --> 01:51:19,640
Speaker 1: the height of the war between the Israeli military and

1732
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:23,080
Speaker 1: Palestinian factions in the Gaza Strip, New York Times ran

1733
01:51:23,120 --> 01:51:27,000
Speaker 1: an article headlined Israel says that Hamas uses children's shields,

1734
01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:30,640
Speaker 1: reviving debate. It was a reference to the hundreds of

1735
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:33,479
Speaker 1: Palestinian civilians who have been killed in the Israeli attacks

1736
01:51:33,520 --> 01:51:35,600
Speaker 1: by that point in the war, and there was no

1737
01:51:35,680 --> 01:51:38,599
Speaker 1: question about who had killed them, yet the language shifted

1738
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:41,520
Speaker 1: the subject to a debate about who was really responsible.

1739
01:51:42,040 --> 01:51:44,360
Speaker 1: A few weeks earlier, after an Israeli air strike had

1740
01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:48,679
Speaker 1: killed several Palestinian soccer fans, the Times ran another absurd

1741
01:51:48,680 --> 01:51:54,639
Speaker 1: title titled Missile at beachside Gaza Cafe finds patrons poised

1742
01:51:54,640 --> 01:52:01,160
Speaker 1: for the World Cup, and they later found the poise

1743
01:52:01,320 --> 01:52:04,960
Speaker 1: just sitting there. It's amazing people talk about the exonerative

1744
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:08,120
Speaker 1: case in like journalism, and it it appears to apply

1745
01:52:08,200 --> 01:52:12,480
Speaker 1: to the Israeli military and American cops. Yes, exactly, um

1746
01:52:12,520 --> 01:52:15,080
Speaker 1: And they did later ament this title because they had

1747
01:52:15,640 --> 01:52:18,759
Speaker 1: like a widespread like backlash and discussed that was expressed

1748
01:52:18,760 --> 01:52:22,280
Speaker 1: on social media. It only changed after that. But the

1749
01:52:22,280 --> 01:52:25,599
Speaker 1: whole point is that headlines matter, and it's the first

1750
01:52:25,640 --> 01:52:29,360
Speaker 1: and sometimes only exposure the general public has two world events,

1751
01:52:29,880 --> 01:52:32,759
Speaker 1: and especially like now, I believe that in our current time,

1752
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:34,720
Speaker 1: the words at the top of that page or like

1753
01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:37,000
Speaker 1: sometimes the only words that show up in a hyperlink

1754
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:40,280
Speaker 1: are more important the articles themselves, because sometimes it's all

1755
01:52:40,320 --> 01:52:44,160
Speaker 1: people see before they keep on scrolling UM, and in

1756
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:47,439
Speaker 1: the case of Israel and Palestine, UH, inappropriate, misleading and

1757
01:52:47,439 --> 01:52:49,720
Speaker 1: biased headlines like those that appeared in The New York

1758
01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:52,559
Speaker 1: Times that I just mentioned have been all too common,

1759
01:52:52,680 --> 01:52:58,439
Speaker 1: accepted and treated as accurate reporting and quote unquote journalism. UH.

1760
01:52:58,439 --> 01:53:01,439
Speaker 1: In twenty and nineteen, there was a study titled fifty

1761
01:53:01,520 --> 01:53:04,519
Speaker 1: Years of Occupation that was published by four one six Labs,

1762
01:53:04,520 --> 01:53:07,800
Speaker 1: which is a research and data data analytics firm based

1763
01:53:07,800 --> 01:53:11,360
Speaker 1: in Canada. This firm analyzed nearly a hundred thousand news

1764
01:53:11,360 --> 01:53:14,320
Speaker 1: headlines about the conflict and the American press over the

1765
01:53:14,360 --> 01:53:16,920
Speaker 1: past five decades and found that the Israeli point of

1766
01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:19,960
Speaker 1: view surprise surprise, was featured much more prominently than the

1767
01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:24,000
Speaker 1: Palestinian one, and that references to Palestinians experiences of being

1768
01:53:24,160 --> 01:53:28,720
Speaker 1: refugees or living under occupation that word especially, that has

1769
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:32,760
Speaker 1: steadily declined over time. So one of the studies authors,

1770
01:53:32,760 --> 01:53:36,400
Speaker 1: Ohi sahre He, told The Intercept that the findings demonstrate

1771
01:53:36,400 --> 01:53:39,599
Speaker 1: a persistent bias and coverage of the Israeli Palestinian issue,

1772
01:53:39,960 --> 01:53:42,840
Speaker 1: one where Israeli narratives are privileged and where despite the

1773
01:53:42,840 --> 01:53:46,479
Speaker 1: continued entrenchment of the occupation. The very topics remain to

1774
01:53:46,520 --> 01:53:49,840
Speaker 1: the Palestinians day today, reality have disappeared. It calls to

1775
01:53:49,920 --> 01:53:52,800
Speaker 1: attention the need to more critically evaluate the scope of

1776
01:53:52,840 --> 01:53:56,320
Speaker 1: coverage of the Israeli occupation and recognize that readers are getting,

1777
01:53:56,360 --> 01:54:00,960
Speaker 1: at best, a heavily filtered rendering of the issue. So

1778
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:03,960
Speaker 1: this study analyzed fifty years of news headlines on the

1779
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:06,759
Speaker 1: Israeli Palestine conflict. I put that in quotes, I feel

1780
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:15,840
Speaker 1: like conflict is suggested equal. Uh, also like understating it. Yes, come, yeah,

1781
01:54:16,000 --> 01:54:19,479
Speaker 1: it's very Uh, it's understating what's that. Actually it's happening,

1782
01:54:19,479 --> 01:54:23,360
Speaker 1: and it just depicts a a somehow neutral playing field.

1783
01:54:23,360 --> 01:54:26,240
Speaker 1: But it's not. But the study analyzed fifty years of

1784
01:54:26,240 --> 01:54:30,600
Speaker 1: headlines from five major American publications, The Chicago Tribune, the

1785
01:54:30,760 --> 01:54:33,040
Speaker 1: l A Times, the New York Times, the Washington Post,

1786
01:54:33,120 --> 01:54:35,960
Speaker 1: and the Wall Street Journal. It employed this thing called

1787
01:54:36,120 --> 01:54:40,040
Speaker 1: natural language processing or n lp UM, and these techniques

1788
01:54:40,040 --> 01:54:43,520
Speaker 1: are used to analyze massive databases of headlines published over

1789
01:54:43,520 --> 01:54:47,120
Speaker 1: this period. NLP is a big data analysis approach used

1790
01:54:47,160 --> 01:54:51,360
Speaker 1: to identify statistical trends and patterns and large caches of text.

1791
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:55,120
Speaker 1: In this case, researchers analyzed nearly a hundred thousand headlines

1792
01:54:55,160 --> 01:54:59,000
Speaker 1: and identified dozens of frequently recurring terms and word sequences

1793
01:54:59,000 --> 01:55:03,200
Speaker 1: and stories about Israel and Palestine. While studies of media

1794
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:06,800
Speaker 1: coverage Israel and Palestine have been conducted before, this one

1795
01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:09,760
Speaker 1: by the four one six Labs analysis is the largest

1796
01:55:09,800 --> 01:55:13,120
Speaker 1: and most comprehensive look at headline coverage since the occupation

1797
01:55:13,160 --> 01:55:18,520
Speaker 1: began in and they're finding show a clear slant towards

1798
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:21,200
Speaker 1: the Israeli perspective. Headlines like the one that I mentioned

1799
01:55:21,240 --> 01:55:23,800
Speaker 1: earlier from New York Times about civilian deaths in Gaza

1800
01:55:24,360 --> 01:55:26,720
Speaker 1: that used the term Israel says where two and a

1801
01:55:26,760 --> 01:55:30,880
Speaker 1: half times more likely to appear than headlines citing Palestinian equivalents.

1802
01:55:31,280 --> 01:55:34,800
Speaker 1: Headlines centering Israel were published four times more than those

1803
01:55:34,800 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 1: centering Palestinians, and words connoting violence such as terror appeared

1804
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:42,920
Speaker 1: three times more than the word occupation. And since nineteen

1805
01:55:43,000 --> 01:55:46,000
Speaker 1: sixty seven, that's the year that the Israeli military took

1806
01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:48,320
Speaker 1: control of the West Bank, there has been an eighty

1807
01:55:48,400 --> 01:55:51,240
Speaker 1: five percent overall decrease in the mention of the term

1808
01:55:51,280 --> 01:55:54,480
Speaker 1: occupation and headlines about Israel, despite the fact that the

1809
01:55:54,520 --> 01:55:57,960
Speaker 1: Israeli militaries occupation of the Palestine territory has in fact

1810
01:55:58,000 --> 01:56:01,040
Speaker 1: intensified over this time, and the mention of the term

1811
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:05,920
Speaker 1: Palestinian refugees, meanwhile has declined a massive And while this

1812
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:09,800
Speaker 1: is maybe subtle from the outside, it's just a consistent

1813
01:56:09,800 --> 01:56:13,280
Speaker 1: disproportion of article headlines which by default gives a greater

1814
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:17,160
Speaker 1: airtime to one side and avoid certain key issues, and

1815
01:56:17,200 --> 01:56:20,560
Speaker 1: this obviously can impact public perception. Yeah, I mean it's

1816
01:56:20,720 --> 01:56:25,560
Speaker 1: very noticeable ones you realize what the biases looking, especially

1817
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:28,000
Speaker 1: on like social media and stuff. When you see just

1818
01:56:28,000 --> 01:56:33,960
Speaker 1: just the headline of an article, it's it's it's obvious. Yeah,

1819
01:56:34,040 --> 01:56:37,200
Speaker 1: it's it's just I don't know, Like what you have

1820
01:56:37,480 --> 01:56:41,360
Speaker 1: is a a conflict where one side is treated like

1821
01:56:41,400 --> 01:56:45,720
Speaker 1: a military force and the other side is treated like um,

1822
01:56:45,880 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 1: almost like weather like. That's that's almost how they write

1823
01:56:48,360 --> 01:56:52,160
Speaker 1: about when the Israeli military does something, it's like like

1824
01:56:52,160 --> 01:56:55,000
Speaker 1: like a thunderstorm came in right, like it's nobody's fault.

1825
01:56:55,000 --> 01:56:57,640
Speaker 1: This is just what happened, you know, like the palaceine

1826
01:56:57,800 --> 01:56:59,400
Speaker 1: that you know, the Hamas or whatever, that's like a

1827
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:01,840
Speaker 1: military force, and so we talk about them the way

1828
01:57:01,840 --> 01:57:04,240
Speaker 1: that we talk about you know, a military force carrying

1829
01:57:04,240 --> 01:57:06,720
Speaker 1: out a strike or something. But but the Israeli military

1830
01:57:06,800 --> 01:57:09,080
Speaker 1: is like it's like with a weather right, like there's

1831
01:57:09,080 --> 01:57:11,040
Speaker 1: nothing to be there's no blame to go around. It

1832
01:57:11,160 --> 01:57:14,800
Speaker 1: just rained, you know. Yeah, and also like legitimizes Israel

1833
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:18,200
Speaker 1: and like the legitimizes any kind of force that Palestine

1834
01:57:18,360 --> 01:57:20,480
Speaker 1: exerts because it's like shown in this like yeah, like

1835
01:57:20,480 --> 01:57:24,200
Speaker 1: a militant terrorist lens um when I was just acting

1836
01:57:24,200 --> 01:57:28,040
Speaker 1: in self defense. It's interesting because the US media actually

1837
01:57:28,080 --> 01:57:31,800
Speaker 1: does a better job of discussing the US military as

1838
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:34,960
Speaker 1: if it actually can be like guilty of crimes, Like

1839
01:57:34,960 --> 01:57:37,760
Speaker 1: the New York Times in particular has done some like

1840
01:57:38,280 --> 01:57:40,240
Speaker 1: not that there's not still problems with it, but they

1841
01:57:40,320 --> 01:57:42,800
Speaker 1: it's like there's there's something unique about the way they

1842
01:57:42,800 --> 01:57:45,320
Speaker 1: write about Israel that I guess not quite unique, because

1843
01:57:45,360 --> 01:57:47,680
Speaker 1: they do often write about police in a similar way,

1844
01:57:47,720 --> 01:57:51,440
Speaker 1: but it's it's very peculiar that it's like, I don't know, Yeah,

1845
01:57:51,440 --> 01:57:55,720
Speaker 1: there's definitely a lot of crossover with US police and

1846
01:57:55,880 --> 01:57:59,480
Speaker 1: Israel and more ways than one. Yes, they trained them

1847
01:57:59,520 --> 01:58:02,160
Speaker 1: first of all, but also just like the way and

1848
01:58:02,240 --> 01:58:04,160
Speaker 1: I'll talk more about this later, but the fact that

1849
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:07,360
Speaker 1: there are so many videos like blatantly showing like brutal

1850
01:58:07,400 --> 01:58:09,920
Speaker 1: acts against like humanity or like just brutalism in Britain

1851
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:12,520
Speaker 1: in general, and like they still get away with it.

1852
01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:15,320
Speaker 1: It just shows that they know there's no punishment, they

1853
01:58:15,400 --> 01:58:18,400
Speaker 1: know that there's a certain amount of immunity because they

1854
01:58:18,440 --> 01:58:21,560
Speaker 1: have big brother America to always fucking get their back.

1855
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:26,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, despite this ongoing American involvement, the total volume

1856
01:58:26,880 --> 01:58:29,480
Speaker 1: of US media coverage about the conflict has been in

1857
01:58:29,520 --> 01:58:33,720
Speaker 1: an overall decline since the Oslo Peace Accords. This was

1858
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:37,240
Speaker 1: a negotiate agreement between the then Palestine leader Yasser Arafat

1859
01:58:37,360 --> 01:58:41,000
Speaker 1: and then Israeli Prime Minister yet Daike Raban, and it

1860
01:58:41,080 --> 01:58:44,080
Speaker 1: was intended to establish conditions for peace in the region.

1861
01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:47,640
Speaker 1: The decline and use coverage says little about the conditions

1862
01:58:47,680 --> 01:58:52,360
Speaker 1: on the ground because they didn't get better. But the

1863
01:58:52,440 --> 01:58:55,080
Speaker 1: hopes that were briefly raised by this Oslo piece accord

1864
01:58:55,200 --> 01:59:00,760
Speaker 1: effectively died. After an Israeli extremists assassin, they had Rabine

1865
01:59:01,080 --> 01:59:05,040
Speaker 1: and a new hardline Israeli leader, Benjamin and Yahoo. He

1866
01:59:05,080 --> 01:59:09,960
Speaker 1: took power and since then, the Israeli military their occupation

1867
01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:13,000
Speaker 1: of the West Bank, has only expanded, with new settlements

1868
01:59:13,120 --> 01:59:16,400
Speaker 1: eating away at the remaining areas of Palestinian control, even

1869
01:59:16,480 --> 01:59:20,200
Speaker 1: while global media attention has declined. And it's not just

1870
01:59:20,280 --> 01:59:23,280
Speaker 1: American media that shows a clear bias that favors Israel.

1871
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:26,360
Speaker 1: British media coverage on the violence and Palestine is also

1872
01:59:26,480 --> 01:59:30,520
Speaker 1: very biased against Palestinians, which in turn skews public perception internationally.

1873
01:59:31,960 --> 01:59:36,440
Speaker 1: The Muslim Council of Britain's Center for Media Marketing, the CFMM,

1874
01:59:36,440 --> 01:59:39,320
Speaker 1: published a forty four page report that was titled media

1875
01:59:39,360 --> 01:59:43,800
Speaker 1: Reporting on Palestine one. And this report came after two

1876
01:59:43,880 --> 01:59:46,840
Speaker 1: weeks of violence in which Israeli police cracked down on

1877
01:59:46,920 --> 01:59:50,440
Speaker 1: protests against the eminent evictions of Palestinians and the occupied

1878
01:59:50,480 --> 01:59:54,080
Speaker 1: East Jerusalem neighborhood of Schecha. This report came after two

1879
01:59:54,080 --> 01:59:56,680
Speaker 1: weeks of violence in which Israeli police cracked down on

1880
01:59:56,760 --> 01:59:59,960
Speaker 1: protests against the eminent eviction of Palestinians and the Occupi

1881
02:00:00,040 --> 02:00:03,440
Speaker 1: hid East Jerusalem neighborhood of schechtered off and the subsequently

1882
02:00:03,480 --> 02:00:07,400
Speaker 1: attacked Palestine you worshippers and at the Luxe Mosque, and

1883
02:00:07,440 --> 02:00:09,440
Speaker 1: that wounded hundreds. I don't know if you guys remember,

1884
02:00:09,560 --> 02:00:12,840
Speaker 1: but in one last year there was a lot of

1885
02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:16,640
Speaker 1: violence occurring in Palestine. There was more coverage than usual,

1886
02:00:16,760 --> 02:00:22,320
Speaker 1: especially covering Schechtera, and obviously news headlines didn't always come

1887
02:00:22,360 --> 02:00:26,640
Speaker 1: out in an even handed way. But the brutal escalation

1888
02:00:26,680 --> 02:00:29,560
Speaker 1: of violence that followed as rockets were fired from Gaza

1889
02:00:29,640 --> 02:00:33,080
Speaker 1: and Israeli air strikes on the besieged enclave, it killed

1890
02:00:33,120 --> 02:00:36,560
Speaker 1: at least two hundred and forty eight Palestinians, including sixty

1891
02:00:36,640 --> 02:00:40,600
Speaker 1: six children. The occupied West Bank in East Jerusalem, twenty

1892
02:00:40,680 --> 02:00:43,960
Speaker 1: nine Palestinians were killed, and the rockets fired from Gaza

1893
02:00:44,040 --> 02:00:48,280
Speaker 1: killed twelve people in Israel. The CFMM stated that between

1894
02:00:48,320 --> 02:00:53,800
Speaker 1: May seven and um that's twenty when a ceasefire was announced,

1895
02:00:54,160 --> 02:00:58,120
Speaker 1: there were sixty two thousand, four hundred online print articles

1896
02:00:58,440 --> 02:01:01,680
Speaker 1: in nearly eight thousand television broadcast reporting on the events,

1897
02:01:02,120 --> 02:01:05,240
Speaker 1: and this report found that the narrative was extremely unbalanced

1898
02:01:05,280 --> 02:01:09,480
Speaker 1: due to quote skewed language, misleading headlines, and problematic framing.

1899
02:01:10,240 --> 02:01:13,400
Speaker 1: Razwanna Hamid, the director of CFMM and the co author

1900
02:01:13,400 --> 02:01:15,680
Speaker 1: of this report, told The Middle East I that the

1901
02:01:15,720 --> 02:01:18,440
Speaker 1: overwhelming amount of complaints that was received by the maunchoring

1902
02:01:18,520 --> 02:01:23,040
Speaker 1: organization about the biased media coverage in Britain um covering

1903
02:01:23,040 --> 02:01:25,880
Speaker 1: the events in Palestine. It aligned with the analysis and

1904
02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:28,720
Speaker 1: evidence that this is all skewed and it makes sense

1905
02:01:28,760 --> 02:01:32,760
Speaker 1: to get defensive when being rightfully called out, um just

1906
02:01:32,840 --> 02:01:35,800
Speaker 1: to kind of talk a little bit about sex really quick.

1907
02:01:36,560 --> 02:01:39,600
Speaker 1: This report cited several examples of media referring to the

1908
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:44,320
Speaker 1: situation and sea which the situation was Palestinians being forcibly

1909
02:01:44,320 --> 02:01:47,959
Speaker 1: removed from their homes. Um. They called this an eviction

1910
02:01:48,200 --> 02:01:51,600
Speaker 1: or a real estate dispute, which implies a legal basis

1911
02:01:51,720 --> 02:01:54,680
Speaker 1: for these forced displacements, when in reality it was a viola,

1912
02:01:54,800 --> 02:01:58,640
Speaker 1: a violation of international law. So that's minimizing it to

1913
02:01:58,680 --> 02:02:03,040
Speaker 1: an extreme. UM. It also found that fifty of broadcast

1914
02:02:03,080 --> 02:02:06,440
Speaker 1: media clips between May seven and May t referred to

1915
02:02:06,600 --> 02:02:10,520
Speaker 1: quote unquote evictions or similar terms to describe illegal sentiment

1916
02:02:10,560 --> 02:02:15,240
Speaker 1: plans in Schechterra, And that also kind of just conflates

1917
02:02:15,280 --> 02:02:17,200
Speaker 1: that this is there's nothing you can do. This is

1918
02:02:17,240 --> 02:02:19,840
Speaker 1: like a legal dispute, not your problem, you know, like

1919
02:02:19,920 --> 02:02:22,680
Speaker 1: let them let the mess be over there, and we're

1920
02:02:22,680 --> 02:02:24,640
Speaker 1: just sitting here all pretty In America, they make it

1921
02:02:24,680 --> 02:02:31,200
Speaker 1: seem like it's like, oh, landlord, thing, this is like yeah, yeah,

1922
02:02:31,440 --> 02:02:35,440
Speaker 1: there's there's also this this way in which the actual

1923
02:02:35,520 --> 02:02:37,240
Speaker 1: thing that is happening is a bunch of people are

1924
02:02:37,240 --> 02:02:40,400
Speaker 1: showing up with guns and stealing people's houses, and this

1925
02:02:40,440 --> 02:02:42,240
Speaker 1: is getting treated as like, oh, this is like this

1926
02:02:42,280 --> 02:02:43,560
Speaker 1: is you know this, this is some kind of sort

1927
02:02:43,600 --> 02:02:47,520
Speaker 1: of like it's like a rental dispute. It's like it

1928
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:50,800
Speaker 1: shurts into this this like completely bloodless legal thing, and

1929
02:02:50,840 --> 02:02:52,640
Speaker 1: then you know, you look at what's actually happening and

1930
02:02:52,680 --> 02:02:55,040
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, they're stealing people's houses at gunpoints. They

1931
02:02:55,040 --> 02:03:00,560
Speaker 1: are like blowing up children with high explosives. It's just like, yeah,

1932
02:03:00,920 --> 02:03:04,680
Speaker 1: it's definitely not presented an accurate way. And especially if

1933
02:03:04,680 --> 02:03:07,400
Speaker 1: you don't know what's actually happening, like you do, and

1934
02:03:07,440 --> 02:03:10,280
Speaker 1: you just see these like random headlines and whatever, you

1935
02:03:10,320 --> 02:03:12,960
Speaker 1: don't think it's anything but what it is what they're

1936
02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:15,720
Speaker 1: telling you, Like, why would you deep dive any further

1937
02:03:15,760 --> 02:03:19,040
Speaker 1: if you're not affected by it? You know. Um. And

1938
02:03:19,080 --> 02:03:20,360
Speaker 1: one of the one of the things I noticed, like

1939
02:03:20,400 --> 02:03:21,760
Speaker 1: when I was reading some of the coverage that this

1940
02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:25,400
Speaker 1: is like the the reporters would like go try to

1941
02:03:25,440 --> 02:03:28,160
Speaker 1: find some kind of legal basis for this, and they'd

1942
02:03:28,200 --> 02:03:31,920
Speaker 1: start like they these like like five paragraph long things

1943
02:03:31,960 --> 02:03:35,240
Speaker 1: about like weird legal stuff from like nineteen three, like

1944
02:03:35,280 --> 02:03:38,320
Speaker 1: this has nothing to do with what's happening, Like this

1945
02:03:38,360 --> 02:03:41,960
Speaker 1: is you've taken you've taken the Yeah, yeah, it's it's

1946
02:03:42,000 --> 02:03:44,960
Speaker 1: like they've they've they've taken the exonerative case from from

1947
02:03:44,960 --> 02:03:49,760
Speaker 1: the title and then gone and just done exonerative journalism. Yeah.

1948
02:03:50,160 --> 02:03:52,600
Speaker 1: I do have to say that is we are. We

1949
02:03:52,680 --> 02:03:55,920
Speaker 1: keep using the term exonerative case. Somebody came up with that,

1950
02:03:56,000 --> 02:03:58,400
Speaker 1: and I keep forgetting who it was. But it's a

1951
02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:02,000
Speaker 1: one of the better, one of the better developments and

1952
02:04:02,040 --> 02:04:07,440
Speaker 1: discussing the way the media talks about Palestine. Yeah, yeah,

1953
02:04:07,480 --> 02:04:10,880
Speaker 1: it's uh yeah, I I just hate the word. I

1954
02:04:10,920 --> 02:04:13,520
Speaker 1: hate that even the word journalism has like it's not

1955
02:04:13,920 --> 02:04:15,600
Speaker 1: I don't even like calling this journalism, you know what

1956
02:04:15,640 --> 02:04:17,520
Speaker 1: I mean. I don't like that New York Times doesn't

1957
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:19,800
Speaker 1: use anything anything, but it is what it is. That's

1958
02:04:19,800 --> 02:04:22,920
Speaker 1: what we got well and it's you know, as is

1959
02:04:22,920 --> 02:04:25,520
Speaker 1: always the frustration with the New York Times. They have

1960
02:04:25,600 --> 02:04:28,680
Speaker 1: also done some really good journalism on fucked up ship

1961
02:04:28,720 --> 02:04:31,520
Speaker 1: done by like on them. I think it was the

1962
02:04:31,520 --> 02:04:33,400
Speaker 1: New York Times. We did one of the articles on

1963
02:04:33,640 --> 02:04:35,920
Speaker 1: Sharene's murder, but that I know that was seen in

1964
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:39,200
Speaker 1: I think this Time did a really good article. Ye

1965
02:04:40,000 --> 02:04:43,160
Speaker 1: a really good And it's like all of these, like

1966
02:04:43,280 --> 02:04:46,000
Speaker 1: these problems are systemic. All of these news agencies have

1967
02:04:46,120 --> 02:04:48,360
Speaker 1: people who do care and who have been over there

1968
02:04:48,360 --> 02:04:50,720
Speaker 1: and know how fucked up things are. So it's not

1969
02:04:50,760 --> 02:04:54,680
Speaker 1: like there aren't people within the system trying to wrench it.

1970
02:04:54,680 --> 02:04:56,960
Speaker 1: It's just like a sign of kind of how powerful,

1971
02:04:57,800 --> 02:05:00,560
Speaker 1: um the fucking how much a ner ship there is

1972
02:05:00,600 --> 02:05:02,920
Speaker 1: built up in Israel's favor here, I guess, but maybe

1973
02:05:02,920 --> 02:05:06,360
Speaker 1: that's maybe that's too exonerative for what's actually happening. I

1974
02:05:06,400 --> 02:05:10,240
Speaker 1: think it's also like I'll get into this a little

1975
02:05:10,240 --> 02:05:12,760
Speaker 1: bit later, but New York Times, for example, it's like

1976
02:05:14,600 --> 02:05:17,200
Speaker 1: there are some writers that are clearly had to clearly

1977
02:05:17,200 --> 02:05:19,600
Speaker 1: have a bias in favor of Israel, whether it's like

1978
02:05:19,640 --> 02:05:23,000
Speaker 1: they've described themselves as being like right wing or whatever. Obviously,

1979
02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:25,960
Speaker 1: so it's like it's there's no, there's not even an

1980
02:05:26,000 --> 02:05:29,560
Speaker 1: option for balanced journalism if you're giving someone that kind

1981
02:05:29,600 --> 02:05:33,160
Speaker 1: of voice, and there I mean even if you are, uh,

1982
02:05:33,240 --> 02:05:35,200
Speaker 1: if you have an opinion, you would think as a journalist,

1983
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:38,040
Speaker 1: you would understand what journalism means when it comes to

1984
02:05:38,080 --> 02:05:41,120
Speaker 1: like reporting accurate and fair information. But I think bias

1985
02:05:41,160 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 1: always wins. Yeah, well because not like if you're even

1986
02:05:46,360 --> 02:05:48,720
Speaker 1: if you're like because I think, honestly, if you know

1987
02:05:48,760 --> 02:05:52,200
Speaker 1: what's going on there, if you've actually spent time in

1988
02:05:52,240 --> 02:05:54,120
Speaker 1: the area and not just like hung out with the

1989
02:05:54,200 --> 02:05:59,400
Speaker 1: Israeli military, Uh, the honest take is a tremendous amount

1990
02:05:59,400 --> 02:06:03,760
Speaker 1: of sympathy for the Palestinian cause and Palestinian people. Um.

1991
02:06:03,800 --> 02:06:05,880
Speaker 1: But even so, if you're an honest journalist, you're going

1992
02:06:05,920 --> 02:06:08,400
Speaker 1: to try to be carefully like you do have to

1993
02:06:08,400 --> 02:06:14,400
Speaker 1: report on stuff like you know, missile strikes. But because

1994
02:06:14,760 --> 02:06:17,280
Speaker 1: you've got that side, and then you've got the people

1995
02:06:17,280 --> 02:06:20,600
Speaker 1: who are overwhelmingly in Israel's corner and refused to report

1996
02:06:20,600 --> 02:06:23,560
Speaker 1: on the other side of things, the coverage de facto

1997
02:06:23,680 --> 02:06:26,960
Speaker 1: is always going to tilt towards Israel because the side

1998
02:06:27,000 --> 02:06:31,120
Speaker 1: that would be kind of reflexively and purely on kind

1999
02:06:31,160 --> 02:06:34,720
Speaker 1: of the Palestinian side just has no visibility here. You know. Um,

2000
02:06:35,440 --> 02:06:37,280
Speaker 1: I I don't know like what you do with that,

2001
02:06:37,320 --> 02:06:39,640
Speaker 1: because this is again a broader as with all these things,

2002
02:06:39,720 --> 02:06:44,400
Speaker 1: is your broader problems in media. Um. But yeah, you

2003
02:06:44,440 --> 02:06:47,840
Speaker 1: know what else is a broader problem in media. It

2004
02:06:48,040 --> 02:06:50,320
Speaker 1: is the fact. It is the fact that me that

2005
02:06:50,320 --> 02:06:54,400
Speaker 1: that news and journalism is heavily advertising supported, which leads

2006
02:06:54,440 --> 02:06:58,400
Speaker 1: to deep amounts of bias UH in journalism and and

2007
02:06:58,480 --> 02:07:02,360
Speaker 1: also problematic graphic seeking behaviors in a wide variety of

2008
02:07:02,400 --> 02:07:06,000
Speaker 1: things that are careening us all towards an unsurvivable outcome.

2009
02:07:06,800 --> 02:07:10,840
Speaker 1: And we're back. Hopefully that was um and if not,

2010
02:07:11,000 --> 02:07:13,400
Speaker 1: well it is what you get. But I want to

2011
02:07:13,400 --> 02:07:17,480
Speaker 1: bring up something about ahead. No, I just was apologizing

2012
02:07:17,520 --> 02:07:21,160
Speaker 1: for calling the audience motherfucker's never alze for that. Never

2013
02:07:21,200 --> 02:07:24,920
Speaker 1: apologize for go to hell, you sons of bitches. Thank

2014
02:07:24,960 --> 02:07:29,400
Speaker 1: you for listening. Yeah, thank you so much. Also be

2015
02:07:29,480 --> 02:07:31,400
Speaker 1: nice to me. But I want to bring up something

2016
02:07:31,640 --> 02:07:33,560
Speaker 1: that I hear all the time as far as like

2017
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:37,880
Speaker 1: people that have been to Israel UM on birthright. I

2018
02:07:37,880 --> 02:07:40,360
Speaker 1: want to say that birthright does not count unless you

2019
02:07:40,400 --> 02:07:43,200
Speaker 1: have like critical thinking and you understand how biased that

2020
02:07:43,240 --> 02:07:46,480
Speaker 1: trip even is and the fact that like you don't

2021
02:07:46,520 --> 02:07:51,280
Speaker 1: even have to be from that land to go back there. Meanwhile,

2022
02:07:51,320 --> 02:07:53,800
Speaker 1: Palestinians are not allowed to even step foot in that land.

2023
02:07:53,920 --> 02:07:56,360
Speaker 1: So that's another episode entirely. I won't get into it,

2024
02:07:56,560 --> 02:08:00,800
Speaker 1: but it does really make me mad. And I'll stop

2025
02:08:00,840 --> 02:08:06,040
Speaker 1: there before I rage talk any further. But um, let's

2026
02:08:06,040 --> 02:08:12,200
Speaker 1: go back to Israeli violence and police. So with regards

2027
02:08:12,240 --> 02:08:15,120
Speaker 1: to the violence at the ax A Mosque, it resulted

2028
02:08:15,120 --> 02:08:18,400
Speaker 1: in hundreds of Palestinians being wounded. And the report, uh,

2029
02:08:18,560 --> 02:08:22,360
Speaker 1: the British report that we're talking about, documented widespread instances

2030
02:08:22,480 --> 02:08:27,960
Speaker 1: of media outlets using terms like clashes, conflict, scuffles and skirmishes,

2031
02:08:28,920 --> 02:08:31,600
Speaker 1: which kind of applies equal blame, which is obviously not

2032
02:08:31,640 --> 02:08:36,400
Speaker 1: true because one side is armed in swat gear um.

2033
02:08:36,440 --> 02:08:38,920
Speaker 1: And it also cited several news reports speaking of an

2034
02:08:38,920 --> 02:08:43,000
Speaker 1: into fada, which it said played into fearmongering and framing

2035
02:08:43,000 --> 02:08:46,680
Speaker 1: Palestinians as violent aggressors. I want to point out that

2036
02:08:46,800 --> 02:08:50,440
Speaker 1: the word into fathera is just an Arabic word that

2037
02:08:50,480 --> 02:08:54,680
Speaker 1: means rebellion or uprising and or a resistance, a resistance movement.

2038
02:08:54,720 --> 02:08:58,000
Speaker 1: It's a key concept in contemporary Arabic usage. It refers

2039
02:08:58,040 --> 02:09:00,960
Speaker 1: to a legitimate uprising against a pre usion. And I

2040
02:09:01,000 --> 02:09:04,120
Speaker 1: feel like, like so many Arabic words, it's been skewed

2041
02:09:04,160 --> 02:09:07,800
Speaker 1: into something to fear, like even the words allaho akbud,

2042
02:09:07,840 --> 02:09:11,200
Speaker 1: which literally just means like thank you God or like

2043
02:09:11,480 --> 02:09:13,240
Speaker 1: dear God. You know what I mean, Like, I think

2044
02:09:13,680 --> 02:09:15,760
Speaker 1: the fact that those words are invoked in fear like

2045
02:09:15,880 --> 02:09:19,920
Speaker 1: it's really breaks my heart to hear like my native

2046
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:24,120
Speaker 1: language being used to incite fear. Like trust me, I've

2047
02:09:24,120 --> 02:09:26,240
Speaker 1: been on airports in my parents who have gotten really

2048
02:09:26,280 --> 02:09:30,720
Speaker 1: strange looks just for speaking in Arabic. So again another episode.

2049
02:09:30,720 --> 02:09:32,760
Speaker 1: I keep getting distracted. There are so many things that

2050
02:09:32,760 --> 02:09:35,880
Speaker 1: make me bad. But um, I just wanted to bring

2051
02:09:35,960 --> 02:09:38,520
Speaker 1: up that if you're free afraid of the word and defaulta,

2052
02:09:38,640 --> 02:09:43,480
Speaker 1: don't be because that's also public media skewing your brain.

2053
02:09:43,880 --> 02:09:49,839
Speaker 1: Don't believe it. And um I mean the director of

2054
02:09:49,880 --> 02:09:52,320
Speaker 1: this organization and the co author of this report. She

2055
02:09:52,440 --> 02:09:55,520
Speaker 1: said that as far as language is concerned, terms like

2056
02:09:55,600 --> 02:09:59,520
Speaker 1: evictions max they mask the illegal force removals and expulsion

2057
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:03,680
Speaker 1: of Palace Indians from their homes, references to conflict and clashes.

2058
02:10:03,720 --> 02:10:06,320
Speaker 1: They try to equalize what's what's in effect a battle

2059
02:10:06,360 --> 02:10:10,480
Speaker 1: between David and Goliath. And it also, as I said earlier,

2060
02:10:10,560 --> 02:10:16,760
Speaker 1: masking ethnic cleansing as rental disagreements is absurd, but it's uh.

2061
02:10:16,800 --> 02:10:19,840
Speaker 1: It also like implies that there's like a legal basis

2062
02:10:19,880 --> 02:10:22,680
Speaker 1: for everything. Um, but it's all surprising at this point,

2063
02:10:23,080 --> 02:10:26,200
Speaker 1: Like I feel like clashes also, isn't. It's just anytime

2064
02:10:26,280 --> 02:10:28,960
Speaker 1: you see a writer using the word clashes, it like

2065
02:10:29,080 --> 02:10:32,240
Speaker 1: clashes is just like is it's it's just a coward tense.

2066
02:10:33,240 --> 02:10:37,880
Speaker 1: It's clashes. Yeah, Clashes is what you say when you

2067
02:10:37,920 --> 02:10:41,640
Speaker 1: are incredibly desperate not to at any point talk about

2068
02:10:41,920 --> 02:10:45,280
Speaker 1: who started the violence as happening and why, because clashes,

2069
02:10:45,320 --> 02:10:47,400
Speaker 1: let's just righte it off. Okay, there's two people, Funny,

2070
02:10:47,400 --> 02:10:49,960
Speaker 1: I mean a clashes fight, like if you're just if

2071
02:10:50,000 --> 02:10:54,720
Speaker 1: you're discussing like Ukrainian and Russian troops like fighting in

2072
02:10:54,920 --> 02:10:57,440
Speaker 1: a village, Like, yeah, you can call that a clash.

2073
02:10:57,520 --> 02:11:01,040
Speaker 1: Both sides showed up with tanks and and weaponry to

2074
02:11:01,120 --> 02:11:03,800
Speaker 1: like fight a war. And if you're talking about the

2075
02:11:03,800 --> 02:11:06,080
Speaker 1: band the clash, you can talk about the clash. But

2076
02:11:06,120 --> 02:11:09,440
Speaker 1: otherwise maybe don't use the term clash. Yeah, if you're

2077
02:11:09,440 --> 02:11:11,600
Speaker 1: talking unless you're talking about someone who's not dressed well

2078
02:11:11,840 --> 02:11:13,640
Speaker 1: or who's dressed really well, one of the two, I

2079
02:11:13,680 --> 02:11:17,440
Speaker 1: forget what. No, but you're right, I think, especially if

2080
02:11:17,440 --> 02:11:21,360
Speaker 1: you're talking about literal an army coming to an unarmed

2081
02:11:21,480 --> 02:11:24,480
Speaker 1: family's home and kicking them out. That's not a fucking

2082
02:11:24,520 --> 02:11:29,760
Speaker 1: clash that is, yeah, yeah, Or like you're tear gassing

2083
02:11:29,840 --> 02:11:33,000
Speaker 1: someone in a mosque and it's like, this is not

2084
02:11:33,000 --> 02:11:36,720
Speaker 1: not a clash, No, this is a chemical weapons attack.

2085
02:11:36,800 --> 02:11:39,920
Speaker 1: Like what, Yeah, it's a chemical weapons attack on a

2086
02:11:40,000 --> 02:11:43,080
Speaker 1: house of warship, which is what what we in the

2087
02:11:43,120 --> 02:11:47,040
Speaker 1: biz call not cool. What's really ironic, too, is that

2088
02:11:47,040 --> 02:11:51,400
Speaker 1: that mosque and that region, like that point in particular,

2089
02:11:51,480 --> 02:11:55,160
Speaker 1: is sacred to Muslims, Jewish people, and Christians alike. So

2090
02:11:55,200 --> 02:11:57,240
Speaker 1: the fact that they're desecrating it at all in any

2091
02:11:57,240 --> 02:12:01,680
Speaker 1: way is really ironic to me because it's they don't

2092
02:12:01,720 --> 02:12:06,760
Speaker 1: care about anything. Um. But another area of concerns surrounding

2093
02:12:06,920 --> 02:12:09,919
Speaker 1: this reporting on Jerusalem was an over emphasis on religion.

2094
02:12:10,240 --> 02:12:12,560
Speaker 1: That's a good segue. Look at that, an accidental segue.

2095
02:12:12,600 --> 02:12:16,200
Speaker 1: I'll take it. It's pronounced s okay. The report found

2096
02:12:16,200 --> 02:12:19,480
Speaker 1: that nearly two thirds of nine nearly two thirds of

2097
02:12:19,640 --> 02:12:24,800
Speaker 1: ninety clips in this timeframe referred to Palestinians religion, in

2098
02:12:24,840 --> 02:12:27,800
Speaker 1: some cases explicitly just saying that they're Muslim. One I

2099
02:12:27,880 --> 02:12:31,520
Speaker 1: TV report from a tent reference sirens, which prompted quote

2100
02:12:31,600 --> 02:12:34,440
Speaker 1: Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall to flee and run

2101
02:12:34,480 --> 02:12:38,280
Speaker 1: for cover, and Palestinians using the quote third holies Sitan

2102
02:12:38,400 --> 02:12:41,600
Speaker 1: Islam as a base to throw stones at Israeli police.

2103
02:12:42,280 --> 02:12:46,200
Speaker 1: And while religious significance may be important to know at times,

2104
02:12:46,920 --> 02:12:50,480
Speaker 1: journalists I believe should avoid implying this religious motivation unless

2105
02:12:50,480 --> 02:12:53,960
Speaker 1: it's necessary, because it portrays the history of Israel versus

2106
02:12:53,960 --> 02:12:58,040
Speaker 1: Palestine as anything other than settler colonialism. If it's a

2107
02:12:58,040 --> 02:13:00,080
Speaker 1: religious dispute, then it's just like a far away, a

2108
02:13:01,000 --> 02:13:04,560
Speaker 1: decades centuries long fight that there's nothing we can do about.

2109
02:13:04,640 --> 02:13:07,280
Speaker 1: Our hands are in the air. But really it's really simple,

2110
02:13:07,400 --> 02:13:12,080
Speaker 1: it's just settler colonialism. And skewing as anything kind of

2111
02:13:12,160 --> 02:13:16,640
Speaker 1: any kind of religious conflict is very purposeful to get

2112
02:13:16,640 --> 02:13:19,160
Speaker 1: people not to care and get people not to think

2113
02:13:19,160 --> 02:13:23,800
Speaker 1: that there's a solution. And as I said, not only

2114
02:13:23,840 --> 02:13:26,480
Speaker 1: that's this false religious narrative, it ignores the existence of

2115
02:13:26,560 --> 02:13:30,520
Speaker 1: persecution also of Palestinian Christians, because not not all Palestinians

2116
02:13:30,520 --> 02:13:34,600
Speaker 1: are Muslim, There are Palestinian Christians UM and Palestinian Jews,

2117
02:13:35,240 --> 02:13:39,520
Speaker 1: but it ignores their existence and of their in their

2118
02:13:39,520 --> 02:13:41,960
Speaker 1: persecution by Israel. And it further is a narrative that

2119
02:13:42,000 --> 02:13:45,200
Speaker 1: there is a centuries long religious war that is too complex.

2120
02:13:45,360 --> 02:13:48,280
Speaker 1: That word is always used in this conflict. Conflict Again,

2121
02:13:48,320 --> 02:13:50,600
Speaker 1: I hate that word, but it's always used to describe

2122
02:13:50,600 --> 02:13:53,160
Speaker 1: what's happening is too complex to talk about or understand,

2123
02:13:53,480 --> 02:13:56,280
Speaker 1: when instead it's opposite. It's the opposite. It's simple. It's

2124
02:13:56,320 --> 02:13:59,440
Speaker 1: an oppressor, and there's an oppressed. Israel is an apartheid

2125
02:13:59,480 --> 02:14:01,880
Speaker 1: state that had has been ethnic cleansing Palestinians and stealing

2126
02:14:01,920 --> 02:14:06,080
Speaker 1: their land ever since it was established. Uh. And i'd

2127
02:14:06,080 --> 02:14:09,200
Speaker 1: even say that war and conflict, it's not a fair fight.

2128
02:14:09,240 --> 02:14:12,360
Speaker 1: It's not an even word. And we've been witnessing a

2129
02:14:12,400 --> 02:14:15,040
Speaker 1: genocide that has been occurring in Israel since it was established.

2130
02:14:15,120 --> 02:14:18,120
Speaker 1: And it's like there's a clearer pressor and a clearer pressed.

2131
02:14:18,960 --> 02:14:23,400
Speaker 1: Any kind of wording that implies otherwise is a lie.

2132
02:14:24,000 --> 02:14:27,560
Speaker 1: Let's go on to Gaza for a moment, and the

2133
02:14:27,560 --> 02:14:30,480
Speaker 1: headlines that describe what's happening in Gaza. There are multiple

2134
02:14:30,480 --> 02:14:34,160
Speaker 1: examples of problematic language and framing regarding violence in Gaza.

2135
02:14:34,520 --> 02:14:37,640
Speaker 1: An article in the Sun on May twelve one was

2136
02:14:37,680 --> 02:14:41,960
Speaker 1: titled fifteen kids mass occurred in Israel Hamas conflict as

2137
02:14:41,960 --> 02:14:45,400
Speaker 1: an and Yahoo warns we will inflict blows you couldn't

2138
02:14:45,480 --> 02:14:48,800
Speaker 1: dream of. This headline failed to mention that fourteen and

2139
02:14:48,880 --> 02:14:52,360
Speaker 1: the fifteen children were that were killed or Palestinians, because

2140
02:14:52,520 --> 02:14:55,720
Speaker 1: reading it, it implies that those children, all Israeli and

2141
02:14:56,000 --> 02:15:00,640
Speaker 1: Palestinians are monsters. That's not the case. Um. And then

2142
02:15:00,680 --> 02:15:04,720
Speaker 1: on the seventeenth of May, i Knews reported that forty

2143
02:15:04,760 --> 02:15:09,120
Speaker 1: two Palestinians died over the weekend. They died over the

2144
02:15:09,120 --> 02:15:16,880
Speaker 1: weeks from heart failure, Like fuck you, um it failed

2145
02:15:16,880 --> 02:15:19,360
Speaker 1: to mention is that all of those deaths were Palestinians

2146
02:15:19,360 --> 02:15:22,560
Speaker 1: in Gaza that were killed. Because died does not give

2147
02:15:22,600 --> 02:15:26,200
Speaker 1: the same impression as murder. If you swap out the

2148
02:15:26,240 --> 02:15:28,560
Speaker 1: truthful word at any of these headlines, it makes a

2149
02:15:28,640 --> 02:15:31,320
Speaker 1: huge difference for people that only see these headlines, like

2150
02:15:31,800 --> 02:15:34,880
Speaker 1: forty two Palestinians died is not the same as forty

2151
02:15:34,880 --> 02:15:38,800
Speaker 1: two Palestinians were murdered. There's a huge into like connotation

2152
02:15:38,840 --> 02:15:41,640
Speaker 1: difference for the people that just read something and move on,

2153
02:15:42,600 --> 02:15:46,160
Speaker 1: and popular headlines tell us time and time again, just

2154
02:15:46,200 --> 02:15:50,320
Speaker 1: like this, that Palestinians have died, while stating that Israeli's

2155
02:15:50,320 --> 02:15:52,920
Speaker 1: on the other hand were killed. Israelis don't die, they're

2156
02:15:52,920 --> 02:15:55,880
Speaker 1: always killed. Palestinians they always died, though they're never killed.

2157
02:15:56,000 --> 02:16:00,920
Speaker 1: There's a huge misproportion of those two words being used

2158
02:16:00,960 --> 02:16:04,600
Speaker 1: for those sides. Christopher brought up earlier about like passive

2159
02:16:04,800 --> 02:16:09,320
Speaker 1: voice in journalism and saying Palestinians died. It's another example

2160
02:16:09,360 --> 02:16:12,640
Speaker 1: of that. And biased media outlets use this passive voice

2161
02:16:12,680 --> 02:16:15,320
Speaker 1: and they avoid specifying in its headlines who was killed

2162
02:16:15,360 --> 02:16:18,760
Speaker 1: and who was responsible if it portrays Israel as the aggressor.

2163
02:16:19,120 --> 02:16:21,960
Speaker 1: The use of passive voice that d emphasizes or hides

2164
02:16:22,160 --> 02:16:26,520
Speaker 1: those perpetrating such negative action on Palestinians, and this has

2165
02:16:26,560 --> 02:16:31,320
Speaker 1: the rhetorical effect of minimizing the responsibility of Israeli aggressors

2166
02:16:31,320 --> 02:16:35,760
Speaker 1: and and causing Palestinians suffering. A lot of headlines also

2167
02:16:35,800 --> 02:16:39,720
Speaker 1: refer to the Israeli military while referring to Palestinian groups

2168
02:16:39,760 --> 02:16:44,240
Speaker 1: as militants or Slamists, which implies differences in legitimacy. Like

2169
02:16:44,320 --> 02:16:47,920
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, there are also headlines describing Israeli air

2170
02:16:47,920 --> 02:16:51,720
Speaker 1: strikes of having come quote after Hamas rocket attacks, but

2171
02:16:51,760 --> 02:16:54,560
Speaker 1: this ignores that the violence from Israeli settlers and police

2172
02:16:54,560 --> 02:16:57,920
Speaker 1: in Jerusalem preceded those rocket attacks. It's like starting in

2173
02:16:57,959 --> 02:17:00,360
Speaker 1: the middle of a fight where you punched themselves to fence,

2174
02:17:00,720 --> 02:17:03,360
Speaker 1: and that's where the argo starts. Like you punch someone,

2175
02:17:03,879 --> 02:17:06,240
Speaker 1: not the person that punched you first. Maybe that's a

2176
02:17:06,240 --> 02:17:09,360
Speaker 1: bad example, but it's just think of it that way.

2177
02:17:09,360 --> 02:17:11,640
Speaker 1: You're starting in the middle of a timeline versus the beginning.

2178
02:17:12,720 --> 02:17:17,280
Speaker 1: And Hamide told the Middle East Ie that the media

2179
02:17:17,360 --> 02:17:20,840
Speaker 1: narrative a racist history, context and legitimacy of the Palestinian

2180
02:17:20,879 --> 02:17:24,560
Speaker 1: cause by presenting Palestinians as the aggressors and Israel as

2181
02:17:24,600 --> 02:17:27,400
Speaker 1: acting in self defense when it is quite the opposite.

2182
02:17:28,360 --> 02:17:32,240
Speaker 1: And I can't talk about Palestine or Israel without mentioning

2183
02:17:32,360 --> 02:17:35,080
Speaker 1: the anti semitism claims that a lot of people bring

2184
02:17:35,160 --> 02:17:39,520
Speaker 1: up every time you mentioned Palestine. Other instances of skewed

2185
02:17:39,600 --> 02:17:43,680
Speaker 1: media coverage, they included articles that conflated pro Palestinian activism

2186
02:17:43,720 --> 02:17:46,760
Speaker 1: with anti Semitism. There was an article in the Telegraph

2187
02:17:46,800 --> 02:17:49,199
Speaker 1: that said that demonstrators in London that were in support

2188
02:17:49,240 --> 02:17:52,040
Speaker 1: of ha Mass were therefore anti Semitic because the group

2189
02:17:52,160 --> 02:17:56,160
Speaker 1: was committed to the ilimination of Jews, which is not correct.

2190
02:17:57,360 --> 02:18:00,160
Speaker 1: I don't agree obviously with everything that Hamas does is

2191
02:18:00,240 --> 02:18:01,880
Speaker 1: but you have to keep in mind that no one

2192
02:18:01,959 --> 02:18:07,119
Speaker 1: else is fighting for Palestinians, and desperate times desperate measures,

2193
02:18:07,320 --> 02:18:11,160
Speaker 1: and there's no there's never a reason to excuse any

2194
02:18:11,240 --> 02:18:14,200
Speaker 1: kind of murder if any anyone that's unarmed or innocent,

2195
02:18:15,000 --> 02:18:19,120
Speaker 1: but against David and Goliath, which what choices Palestine have

2196
02:18:19,280 --> 02:18:21,640
Speaker 1: if no one in the international community is coming to

2197
02:18:21,680 --> 02:18:26,840
Speaker 1: the rescue and h and every everyone who anyone who

2198
02:18:26,959 --> 02:18:30,959
Speaker 1: supports any military action anywhere supports the kind of collateral

2199
02:18:31,040 --> 02:18:34,359
Speaker 1: damage that Hamas does. They just supported under different circumstances

2200
02:18:34,360 --> 02:18:37,240
Speaker 1: and with different weapons systems. Doesn't make it okay to

2201
02:18:37,320 --> 02:18:40,880
Speaker 1: fire rockets blindly into a city, but the United States

2202
02:18:40,959 --> 02:18:44,680
Speaker 1: Air Force fires way more rockets just as blindly into

2203
02:18:44,760 --> 02:18:48,240
Speaker 1: way more cities. Um, It's like, yeah, war is horrible,

2204
02:18:48,280 --> 02:18:51,240
Speaker 1: it's fucked up in bad. It doesn't say anything about

2205
02:18:51,280 --> 02:18:53,920
Speaker 1: the broader cause, Like sure, certainly you can have you know,

2206
02:18:53,959 --> 02:18:56,680
Speaker 1: whatever the moral there's moral condemnation to be had for

2207
02:18:56,800 --> 02:19:00,000
Speaker 1: military leaders with Hamas as there is for the military

2208
02:19:00,240 --> 02:19:03,080
Speaker 1: leaders with any militant force, and for you know, some

2209
02:19:03,160 --> 02:19:05,320
Speaker 1: of the soldiers doing some of those things. But at

2210
02:19:05,320 --> 02:19:07,520
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it says nothing about the

2211
02:19:07,520 --> 02:19:11,080
Speaker 1: overall righteousness of the cause, because there's not a discrepancy

2212
02:19:11,120 --> 02:19:15,760
Speaker 1: in the willingness to accept civilian casualties between Hamas and Israel. Um,

2213
02:19:15,840 --> 02:19:19,520
Speaker 1: they're both very willing to accept civilian casualties in pursuit

2214
02:19:19,560 --> 02:19:22,080
Speaker 1: of their goals. So you have to set that aside

2215
02:19:22,120 --> 02:19:24,800
Speaker 1: when you're trying to determine what is what is happening

2216
02:19:24,800 --> 02:19:27,840
Speaker 1: here and where is righteousness? And I think righteousness overall

2217
02:19:27,920 --> 02:19:31,080
Speaker 1: lies on the side being ethnically cleansed. M hmm, yeah,

2218
02:19:31,800 --> 02:19:34,280
Speaker 1: very well said. I think it's a good place to

2219
02:19:34,360 --> 02:19:38,439
Speaker 1: take an ad break. And you know who also condones

2220
02:19:38,959 --> 02:19:46,280
Speaker 1: heavy civilian casualties in pursuit of their goals, the good people.

2221
02:19:47,200 --> 02:19:50,600
Speaker 1: But that works too. That does also work. Honestly, has

2222
02:19:50,600 --> 02:19:54,480
Speaker 1: gotten a lot more people killed than Hamas right to

2223
02:19:54,560 --> 02:19:57,240
Speaker 1: be to be fair, they may have gotten more people

2224
02:19:57,320 --> 02:20:01,120
Speaker 1: killed than the Israeli military has cost a lot of

2225
02:20:01,120 --> 02:20:07,880
Speaker 1: blood shed over the years. Nikes. Anyway, here's our sponsors it. Okay,

2226
02:20:07,920 --> 02:20:12,640
Speaker 1: we're back, Um before the break, we're talking about pro

2227
02:20:12,720 --> 02:20:15,680
Speaker 1: Palestinian activism being complated with anti Semitism, and I want

2228
02:20:15,680 --> 02:20:19,480
Speaker 1: to bring up this um quote from a Daily Mail

2229
02:20:19,560 --> 02:20:24,400
Speaker 1: column commentator Richard little John stated that anti Semitism like

2230
02:20:24,560 --> 02:20:32,320
Speaker 1: COVID comes in waves. This is the Palestinian variant. Excuse me, Wow,

2231
02:20:33,240 --> 02:20:35,040
Speaker 1: Sometimes I just have to like read that and really

2232
02:20:35,120 --> 02:20:39,000
Speaker 1: just remember what planet I'm on. But this research also

2233
02:20:39,040 --> 02:20:43,680
Speaker 1: mentions examples of insufficient challenge to views and broadcast interviews.

2234
02:20:44,000 --> 02:20:47,600
Speaker 1: This included a Sky News interview with to Zippi Hotel

2235
02:20:47,680 --> 02:20:51,760
Speaker 1: Levy Hotel Velli, the Israeli Ambassador to the UK, failing

2236
02:20:51,840 --> 02:20:55,320
Speaker 1: to sufficiently answer or be challenged on questions about ethnic

2237
02:20:55,320 --> 02:20:59,600
Speaker 1: cleansing and check. She has previously described herself as a

2238
02:20:59,600 --> 02:21:04,000
Speaker 1: religious right winger and has referred to the displacement of

2239
02:21:04,440 --> 02:21:09,680
Speaker 1: seven and fifty tho Palestinians No listen. She describes it

2240
02:21:09,760 --> 02:21:15,640
Speaker 1: as a quote strong and popular Arab Live. This is

2241
02:21:15,680 --> 02:21:20,600
Speaker 1: the Israeli Ambassador to the UK. And it's like there's

2242
02:21:20,640 --> 02:21:23,280
Speaker 1: a lot that's frustrating here. One is that, like you

2243
02:21:23,320 --> 02:21:25,520
Speaker 1: do have to take some care when you particularly when

2244
02:21:25,520 --> 02:21:29,720
Speaker 1: you talk about the media complicity and like pushing the

2245
02:21:29,760 --> 02:21:32,680
Speaker 1: Israeli narrative and all of the different things like a

2246
02:21:32,760 --> 02:21:35,480
Speaker 1: pack that like fund us politicians and whatnot, because like

2247
02:21:35,920 --> 02:21:38,240
Speaker 1: it is, you do have to be careful to not

2248
02:21:38,440 --> 02:21:41,920
Speaker 1: like vierendos conspiracy territory, and I have to be careful

2249
02:21:41,920 --> 02:21:44,200
Speaker 1: with the sources that you pick, because since a lot

2250
02:21:44,240 --> 02:21:46,720
Speaker 1: of mainstream news doesn't cover it, you find some of

2251
02:21:46,760 --> 02:21:49,959
Speaker 1: this written about by people who are definitely not the

2252
02:21:50,000 --> 02:21:52,360
Speaker 1: folks you want to have on your side. But that

2253
02:21:52,440 --> 02:21:56,320
Speaker 1: doesn't make talking about this anti semitic. It just means

2254
02:21:56,360 --> 02:21:59,040
Speaker 1: that the entire discourse is poisoned because of the way

2255
02:21:59,080 --> 02:22:04,039
Speaker 1: the Internet functions. Yeah and yeah, no, good point. I'm

2256
02:22:04,080 --> 02:22:06,440
Speaker 1: not going to expand because I will restated in a

2257
02:22:06,480 --> 02:22:11,480
Speaker 1: worse way. But um, that quote just really baffles my mind,

2258
02:22:11,560 --> 02:22:13,440
Speaker 1: especially because this person has a lot of power as

2259
02:22:13,440 --> 02:22:16,160
Speaker 1: an ambassador, but she has also been accused of holding

2260
02:22:16,240 --> 02:22:19,440
Speaker 1: racist and Islamophobic views and has expressed support for the

2261
02:22:19,480 --> 02:22:24,160
Speaker 1: annexation of the entire illegally occupied West Bank. Yeah. Really

2262
02:22:24,200 --> 02:22:27,560
Speaker 1: great stuff there something No, it seems like nobody's calling

2263
02:22:27,560 --> 02:22:31,560
Speaker 1: that racist though you don't, like, like like you think about

2264
02:22:31,560 --> 02:22:34,240
Speaker 1: the reaction to like to like, hey, yeah, we're like

2265
02:22:34,280 --> 02:22:36,480
Speaker 1: we want to literally take over all of this landing,

2266
02:22:36,520 --> 02:22:38,120
Speaker 1: Like you can compare that to the reaction to like

2267
02:22:38,160 --> 02:22:40,760
Speaker 1: someone saying from the river to the sea, which like

2268
02:22:40,920 --> 02:22:43,720
Speaker 1: everyone immediately loses their minds and it's just like ya,

2269
02:22:43,800 --> 02:22:49,199
Speaker 1: this is the ambassador saying this stuff and nothing happens. Yeah,

2270
02:22:49,600 --> 02:22:52,800
Speaker 1: it's really unsettling. And having someone like that in power,

2271
02:22:52,879 --> 02:22:57,119
Speaker 1: as I will mention later with than Yahoo. Uh, someone

2272
02:22:57,160 --> 02:23:02,280
Speaker 1: that is so right wing or uh can extremist. It's

2273
02:23:02,320 --> 02:23:08,400
Speaker 1: just like um, it encourages people like that, that that

2274
02:23:08,800 --> 02:23:11,440
Speaker 1: in the in the population, encourages that kind of leases

2275
02:23:11,520 --> 02:23:13,160
Speaker 1: them to like expand just like Donald Trump did, Just

2276
02:23:13,160 --> 02:23:16,240
Speaker 1: like Donald Trump did with his fan base or fan base,

2277
02:23:16,760 --> 02:23:21,720
Speaker 1: his base. But here. Yeah. The British report that I'm

2278
02:23:21,720 --> 02:23:25,680
Speaker 1: mentioning are also reported that Palestinians were regularly asked to

2279
02:23:25,760 --> 02:23:29,440
Speaker 1: answer for the actions of Hamas and recommended that spokespeople

2280
02:23:29,480 --> 02:23:31,600
Speaker 1: for the group should instead be given a platform to

2281
02:23:31,640 --> 02:23:34,960
Speaker 1: respond to allegations. Meanwhile, you don't see like random Israeli's

2282
02:23:35,000 --> 02:23:38,880
Speaker 1: being asked to answer for murders committed by the ideas.

2283
02:23:38,959 --> 02:23:42,560
Speaker 1: It's always very one sided. There was also another study

2284
02:23:42,600 --> 02:23:45,760
Speaker 1: that was conducted by M I T titled The New

2285
02:23:45,800 --> 02:23:49,119
Speaker 1: York Times Distores the Palestinian Struggle. It was written by

2286
02:23:49,120 --> 02:23:52,320
Speaker 1: Holly M. Jackson and it was tracking changes in news

2287
02:23:52,400 --> 02:23:56,680
Speaker 1: coverage bias UH, showing how anti Palestinian bias has persisted

2288
02:23:56,680 --> 02:23:59,720
Speaker 1: in The Times coverage by analyzing its articles during the

2289
02:23:59,760 --> 02:24:03,280
Speaker 1: Fur and Second Palestinian into Father's, both periods in which

2290
02:24:03,320 --> 02:24:08,640
Speaker 1: Israeli violence far exceeded that committed by Palestinians. Deploying machine

2291
02:24:08,720 --> 02:24:12,279
Speaker 1: learning methods to analyze over thirty three thousand articles, Jackson

2292
02:24:12,280 --> 02:24:14,960
Speaker 1: focused on bias and the language of The Times reporting

2293
02:24:15,000 --> 02:24:18,360
Speaker 1: through two linguistic features. First was to identify with their

2294
02:24:18,400 --> 02:24:22,120
Speaker 1: actions by Israeli and Palestinian groups were being described in

2295
02:24:22,160 --> 02:24:24,560
Speaker 1: the active and passive voice, and the second was to

2296
02:24:24,560 --> 02:24:28,440
Speaker 1: classify the objectivity and tone of the language used. And

2297
02:24:28,520 --> 02:24:32,400
Speaker 1: this content analysis conducted across sixteen thousand articles during the

2298
02:24:32,400 --> 02:24:36,360
Speaker 1: first and fifather, which was from nine to sepend nine,

2299
02:24:36,480 --> 02:24:42,039
Speaker 1: it revealed some revealing results. Nearly of these articles reference

2300
02:24:42,200 --> 02:24:46,320
Speaker 1: Israeli's while only forty percent reference Palestinians, and about twelve

2301
02:24:46,320 --> 02:24:50,080
Speaker 1: percent all references to Palestinians used violent language, as opposed

2302
02:24:50,080 --> 02:24:54,160
Speaker 1: to only five point nine percent for Israeli's Palestinians. Meanwhile,

2303
02:24:54,240 --> 02:24:57,440
Speaker 1: We're referred to in the passive voice nearly sixteen percent

2304
02:24:57,480 --> 02:25:00,320
Speaker 1: of the time, while the passive voice was used only

2305
02:25:00,400 --> 02:25:03,400
Speaker 1: about six percent of the time to describe Asraeli's and

2306
02:25:03,440 --> 02:25:05,920
Speaker 1: like I know this is just like all numbers and percentages,

2307
02:25:06,520 --> 02:25:09,040
Speaker 1: because we obviously know how bias it is. But I

2308
02:25:09,080 --> 02:25:13,080
Speaker 1: think it's helpful to like scientifically mathematically see that this

2309
02:25:13,160 --> 02:25:15,800
Speaker 1: is like actually accurate and there's not just like us

2310
02:25:15,879 --> 02:25:18,520
Speaker 1: talking about it. This is actually true. So I do

2311
02:25:18,600 --> 02:25:22,080
Speaker 1: believe these studies are very important in showing people that

2312
02:25:22,160 --> 02:25:26,880
Speaker 1: might be uh, I don't know, um, skeptical, that this

2313
02:25:26,959 --> 02:25:30,800
Speaker 1: is actually the reality. And then Jackson also highlighted that

2314
02:25:30,879 --> 02:25:34,680
Speaker 1: during this period, the Times stable of reporters were filled

2315
02:25:35,120 --> 02:25:38,840
Speaker 1: with those, know, those with those with no prejudices, like

2316
02:25:38,920 --> 02:25:43,560
Speaker 1: Thomas L. Freedman and Joel who framed their articles by

2317
02:25:43,560 --> 02:25:49,320
Speaker 1: elevating Israeli perspectives alongside blatant anti Palestinian sentiment. So, like

2318
02:25:49,400 --> 02:25:54,920
Speaker 1: we said, they're giving platforms of people with really clear biases. Um. Yeah. Oh.

2319
02:25:55,000 --> 02:26:00,520
Speaker 1: Also Tom Tomas Friedman uh famously super fucking ish on

2320
02:26:00,560 --> 02:26:05,160
Speaker 1: the Iraq War. Uh and also very famously said when

2321
02:26:05,200 --> 02:26:07,640
Speaker 1: he was trying to rally support for the Iraq War

2322
02:26:07,959 --> 02:26:10,560
Speaker 1: that the Iraq War was about telling Muslims to quote

2323
02:26:10,560 --> 02:26:17,040
Speaker 1: suck on this good guy Tom Friedman, real cool, dude, unbiased.

2324
02:26:18,000 --> 02:26:21,320
Speaker 1: They gave this man a pulitzer. I think they gave

2325
02:26:21,400 --> 02:26:25,320
Speaker 1: him multiple I I would give him a pulitzer very

2326
02:26:25,480 --> 02:26:32,080
Speaker 1: quickly and thrown overhand. Yeah. Uh, that makes me sick.

2327
02:26:32,200 --> 02:26:33,879
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. I'm glad I know that.

2328
02:26:33,920 --> 02:26:39,199
Speaker 1: Now it's cool. He doesn't talk about that anymore. Shut

2329
02:26:39,320 --> 02:26:42,840
Speaker 1: the absolute funk up. I mean, realizing that was the

2330
02:26:42,879 --> 02:26:46,200
Speaker 1: Iraq War and now he's he's still obviously given a

2331
02:26:46,200 --> 02:26:49,960
Speaker 1: platform talking about Palestine. There's no there's no repercussion or

2332
02:26:50,000 --> 02:26:52,680
Speaker 1: even like red flags about this kind of language because

2333
02:26:52,680 --> 02:26:57,640
Speaker 1: it's accepted and it's very really normalized. Um it sucks, Yes,

2334
02:26:58,640 --> 02:27:02,600
Speaker 1: Um headlines served aid for bias, drudge up editorials like

2335
02:27:03,160 --> 02:27:06,840
Speaker 1: quote Israel and Arab neighbors must bend a little no

2336
02:27:06,920 --> 02:27:11,880
Speaker 1: more Palestine and quote and Israel has controlled little of Palestine.

2337
02:27:12,360 --> 02:27:15,280
Speaker 1: So they're really clearly trying Jesus to frame this an

2338
02:27:15,320 --> 02:27:20,640
Speaker 1: incorrect way as if is if Israel's Arab neighbors haven't

2339
02:27:20,720 --> 02:27:23,600
Speaker 1: basically just abandoned Palestine by this point, right, like it

2340
02:27:23,640 --> 02:27:26,840
Speaker 1: has been pretty much like even the like fucking idiot

2341
02:27:26,840 --> 02:27:29,240
Speaker 1: tankies talk about how like Assad supports them, but he

2342
02:27:29,280 --> 02:27:31,959
Speaker 1: put them into fucking camps. He's like arrested and tortured

2343
02:27:32,000 --> 02:27:35,120
Speaker 1: and killed Palestinian activist it like it like you know.

2344
02:27:35,320 --> 02:27:38,039
Speaker 1: One of the thing none of these people ever want

2345
02:27:38,080 --> 02:27:41,360
Speaker 1: you to do is google Google what have al Asad

2346
02:27:41,480 --> 02:27:44,760
Speaker 1: was sucking doing? And uh, why why why he didn't

2347
02:27:44,800 --> 02:27:47,000
Speaker 1: bring in the air force at a a certain very

2348
02:27:47,040 --> 02:27:53,560
Speaker 1: critical moment that al Asad famed buddy of Henry Kay

2349
02:27:53,760 --> 02:28:00,840
Speaker 1: my friend. Yeah, everyone's friends. Everybody's friends. That's what makes

2350
02:28:00,840 --> 02:28:05,360
Speaker 1: politics fun. Yeah. Additionally, there are a systematic attempt to

2351
02:28:05,440 --> 02:28:09,960
Speaker 1: highlight petty disputes between Palestinian groups or contradictions in their

2352
02:28:10,040 --> 02:28:16,200
Speaker 1: leader strategy to frame Palestinians as a rational or disorganized um.

2353
02:28:16,240 --> 02:28:18,680
Speaker 1: And I will say that there has been significant changes

2354
02:28:18,760 --> 02:28:21,160
Speaker 1: in US media coverage of a conflict, especially in the

2355
02:28:21,200 --> 02:28:23,520
Speaker 1: last couple of years, and this is driven in part

2356
02:28:23,560 --> 02:28:27,600
Speaker 1: by popular pressure coming from social media. UM. There are

2357
02:28:27,600 --> 02:28:29,960
Speaker 1: also signs that Israel is becoming a part as an

2358
02:28:29,959 --> 02:28:32,960
Speaker 1: issue that divides liberals and conservatives in the US, with

2359
02:28:33,080 --> 02:28:35,880
Speaker 1: polls showing that growing numbers of Americans would like their

2360
02:28:35,920 --> 02:28:40,000
Speaker 1: government to take a more even handed stance on the conflict. However,

2361
02:28:40,240 --> 02:28:43,680
Speaker 1: hardline supporters of the Israeli government have seemingly shifted their

2362
02:28:43,680 --> 02:28:47,800
Speaker 1: approach from winning quote hearts and minds to punishing opponents.

2363
02:28:48,240 --> 02:28:52,880
Speaker 1: They've published blacklists of Palestinian activists, they've censored public figures

2364
02:28:52,879 --> 02:28:55,000
Speaker 1: that are vocal about the conflict, they've speared them as

2365
02:28:55,040 --> 02:28:59,600
Speaker 1: anti Semitics, and they've advocated for laws to restrict boycotts

2366
02:28:59,640 --> 02:29:02,400
Speaker 1: of his really goods. I want to just take a

2367
02:29:02,400 --> 02:29:05,480
Speaker 1: really quick sidebar to mention that boycotting works. I'll lose

2368
02:29:05,480 --> 02:29:08,240
Speaker 1: another episode probably one day about the BDS movement. But

2369
02:29:08,360 --> 02:29:12,440
Speaker 1: BDS stands for boycott investment in sanctions and it works

2370
02:29:12,440 --> 02:29:17,360
Speaker 1: to end international support for Israel's oppression of Palestinians UM

2371
02:29:17,400 --> 02:29:21,880
Speaker 1: and pressure Israel to comply with international law UM just

2372
02:29:22,000 --> 02:29:26,040
Speaker 1: by boycotting products and companies that are either based in

2373
02:29:26,120 --> 02:29:28,959
Speaker 1: Israel or have products from Israel. And it works because

2374
02:29:29,000 --> 02:29:31,240
Speaker 1: Israel doesn't like it, and I think that's fair, Like

2375
02:29:31,320 --> 02:29:34,600
Speaker 1: that's telling enough that if Israel's has a problem with

2376
02:29:34,640 --> 02:29:37,320
Speaker 1: boycotting ship, you should keep doing it. And it's now

2377
02:29:37,360 --> 02:29:40,360
Speaker 1: a vibrant global movement made up it's made up of unions,

2378
02:29:40,360 --> 02:29:44,760
Speaker 1: academic associations, churches, and grassroots movements across the world. B

2379
02:29:44,920 --> 02:29:48,080
Speaker 1: d S launch in two thousand and five, and it

2380
02:29:48,120 --> 02:29:51,160
Speaker 1: has a major impact and effectively challenging international support for

2381
02:29:51,240 --> 02:29:54,920
Speaker 1: Israeli apartheid and settler colonialism. So that's my sidebar about

2382
02:29:54,920 --> 02:29:58,680
Speaker 1: b DS. But nonetheless, people that have followed the US

2383
02:29:58,760 --> 02:30:01,760
Speaker 1: debate on the quote quote conflict for decades say that

2384
02:30:01,840 --> 02:30:05,160
Speaker 1: there are serious tectonic changes occurring at the level of

2385
02:30:05,160 --> 02:30:08,520
Speaker 1: the American public, both in media and in popular sentiment.

2386
02:30:09,360 --> 02:30:13,960
Speaker 1: Phyllis Bennie, the director of the New Internationalism Project at

2387
02:30:13,959 --> 02:30:18,960
Speaker 1: the Institute for Policy Studies, a DC based progressive think tank, said,

2388
02:30:19,320 --> 02:30:21,920
Speaker 1: although news coverage is not even handed and is still

2389
02:30:22,000 --> 02:30:25,360
Speaker 1: generally skewed towards the Israeli perspective, there has been a

2390
02:30:25,360 --> 02:30:27,840
Speaker 1: massive shift over the past five years and how this

2391
02:30:27,920 --> 02:30:30,600
Speaker 1: issue is both reported and discussed in the United States.

2392
02:30:31,400 --> 02:30:33,440
Speaker 1: We are seeing a shift in the types of stories

2393
02:30:33,440 --> 02:30:35,800
Speaker 1: that are being covered by major outlets, as well as

2394
02:30:35,800 --> 02:30:38,640
Speaker 1: the stances that public figures are willing to take. There

2395
02:30:38,680 --> 02:30:42,280
Speaker 1: are still huge problems, but things are changing. The discourse

2396
02:30:42,320 --> 02:30:45,879
Speaker 1: on Israel Palestine is nothing like it was in decades past,

2397
02:30:46,160 --> 02:30:49,840
Speaker 1: which is very true and for me personally, seeing the

2398
02:30:49,879 --> 02:30:55,240
Speaker 1: public discords change firsthand has been very surreal, uh and amazing,

2399
02:30:55,520 --> 02:30:58,240
Speaker 1: but really surreal because I think a lot of Palestinians

2400
02:30:58,240 --> 02:31:03,520
Speaker 1: and Palestinian supporters never thought it would happen um seeing

2401
02:31:03,560 --> 02:31:07,840
Speaker 1: public figures talk so actively about being pro Palestine, and

2402
02:31:07,959 --> 02:31:14,560
Speaker 1: even though this occupation, this problem seems insurmountable, outing these

2403
02:31:15,080 --> 02:31:18,879
Speaker 1: quote unquote journalists and news outlets is extremely important. Because

2404
02:31:18,879 --> 02:31:21,720
Speaker 1: of public opinion and pressure is strong enough, things have

2405
02:31:21,800 --> 02:31:24,200
Speaker 1: to change. And the proof of this is seeing the

2406
02:31:24,200 --> 02:31:26,680
Speaker 1: headline that I mentioned at the very top, where The

2407
02:31:26,720 --> 02:31:30,320
Speaker 1: Times changed their headline because of widespread discussed express on

2408
02:31:30,320 --> 02:31:34,360
Speaker 1: social media and speaking up and sharing the truth on

2409
02:31:34,400 --> 02:31:38,119
Speaker 1: social media is extremely important, especially if you aren't Palestinian,

2410
02:31:38,120 --> 02:31:40,720
Speaker 1: and especially if you live somewhere that is skewing all

2411
02:31:40,760 --> 02:31:43,959
Speaker 1: these news headlines against Palestinians. There's nothing else but your

2412
02:31:44,040 --> 02:31:48,000
Speaker 1: voice left and Palestinian voices have been and are continuing

2413
02:31:48,040 --> 02:31:51,640
Speaker 1: to be silenced. And this is not simply Palestinian issue.

2414
02:31:52,000 --> 02:31:54,199
Speaker 1: It's a human issue that calls for humans to stand

2415
02:31:54,240 --> 02:31:57,440
Speaker 1: up when they are witnessing extreme injustice take place and

2416
02:31:57,600 --> 02:32:00,480
Speaker 1: boycotting works or else Israel wouldn't be so afraid of it.

2417
02:32:01,120 --> 02:32:04,240
Speaker 1: Choosing to remain silent is choosing the side of the oppressor.

2418
02:32:04,280 --> 02:32:07,480
Speaker 1: You've heard it before, It's true, uh, and I am

2419
02:32:07,520 --> 02:32:09,520
Speaker 1: hopeful with the chains that we've seen the last few

2420
02:32:09,640 --> 02:32:12,200
Speaker 1: years with public figures using their platforms to speak out

2421
02:32:12,240 --> 02:32:15,640
Speaker 1: and depend Palestine. I think it's honestly the best use

2422
02:32:15,680 --> 02:32:18,800
Speaker 1: of their platform and I respect them for that. Uh

2423
02:32:18,840 --> 02:32:20,840
Speaker 1: And I know that, like the concept of celebrity is

2424
02:32:20,920 --> 02:32:25,480
Speaker 1: ridiculous and stupid, but I think if you have the

2425
02:32:25,560 --> 02:32:28,879
Speaker 1: platform and you have millions of people watching you, using

2426
02:32:28,920 --> 02:32:32,360
Speaker 1: your voice in a way to support people that are

2427
02:32:32,360 --> 02:32:34,920
Speaker 1: in danger and like stand up for the oppressed is

2428
02:32:35,200 --> 02:32:37,640
Speaker 1: the one of the only things you should do. And

2429
02:32:37,680 --> 02:32:40,680
Speaker 1: people that I respect this includes Bella Hadid, Susan Sarandon,

2430
02:32:40,800 --> 02:32:43,840
Speaker 1: Nightie Portman, Selena Gomez, Dualipa The Weekend, just to name

2431
02:32:43,840 --> 02:32:46,520
Speaker 1: a few. These people are huge names, they have millions

2432
02:32:46,520 --> 02:32:48,920
Speaker 1: of people watching them, and they're not afraid to speak up,

2433
02:32:49,240 --> 02:32:52,640
Speaker 1: especially Bella Hadid recently, like every other story she posts

2434
02:32:52,680 --> 02:32:56,280
Speaker 1: on Instagram is about these really occupation um which I

2435
02:32:56,320 --> 02:33:00,040
Speaker 1: really respect. I really respect that she has take in

2436
02:33:00,120 --> 02:33:04,280
Speaker 1: such a clear stance and utilizing their platform. It does

2437
02:33:04,320 --> 02:33:08,800
Speaker 1: make a difference in public perception because fans that follow

2438
02:33:08,840 --> 02:33:12,600
Speaker 1: her might not follow news or anything else. It's there's

2439
02:33:12,600 --> 02:33:14,560
Speaker 1: just a lot of crossover that I think is really valuable,

2440
02:33:15,320 --> 02:33:18,039
Speaker 1: and ultimately, I think using your voice is the only

2441
02:33:18,120 --> 02:33:22,400
Speaker 1: right thing to do and any alternative or silence is

2442
02:33:22,440 --> 02:33:29,080
Speaker 1: simply cowardice. And that's my time. That's what I got today.

2443
02:33:30,840 --> 02:33:35,199
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you Sharne. Um. This was pretty

2444
02:33:35,200 --> 02:33:38,480
Speaker 1: bleak but important, and um I tried to uplift at

2445
02:33:38,520 --> 02:34:01,560
Speaker 1: the very end, all of you go go okay, oh oh,

2446
02:34:01,840 --> 02:34:08,920
Speaker 1: don't ever do it again. Nope, it could be How

2447
02:34:08,920 --> 02:34:14,160
Speaker 1: are we opening a show? We're going to distance? Sharine

2448
02:34:15,040 --> 02:34:19,480
Speaker 1: going the distance? Hello for speed. Hello, this is Sharene

2449
02:34:19,959 --> 02:34:24,160
Speaker 1: and I'm talking to you from It can happen here? Oh,

2450
02:34:24,160 --> 02:34:28,600
Speaker 1: it could happen here. Isn't that a podcast? Yeah? Robert,

2451
02:34:28,640 --> 02:34:33,480
Speaker 1: you're correct. Do you want to tell everybody what that is? Okay,

2452
02:34:33,840 --> 02:34:39,600
Speaker 1: jortya today is Robert Evans, Sophie and Chris and Garrison. Um,

2453
02:34:39,680 --> 02:34:42,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to be running the show today for those

2454
02:34:42,040 --> 02:34:46,160
Speaker 1: of you but didn't like yesterday. Too bad. Yeah, motherfucker's

2455
02:34:47,680 --> 02:34:51,000
Speaker 1: die and go to hell. I'm sorry at much that

2456
02:34:51,080 --> 02:34:54,320
Speaker 1: was a little much death threats. It was more of

2457
02:34:54,320 --> 02:35:00,200
Speaker 1: a promise. Okay, Okay, I do want to take over today. Uh.

2458
02:35:00,320 --> 02:35:03,360
Speaker 1: I wanted I wanted to focus an episode on Sharin

2459
02:35:03,480 --> 02:35:06,520
Speaker 1: a blue acklet who was a Palestinate American journalist who

2460
02:35:06,520 --> 02:35:10,480
Speaker 1: worked as a reporter for Aldo Zeerra for twenty five years. UH.

2461
02:35:10,760 --> 02:35:12,640
Speaker 1: She was one of the most prominent names across the

2462
02:35:12,680 --> 02:35:15,720
Speaker 1: Middle East for her decades of reporting on the Israeli

2463
02:35:15,760 --> 02:35:20,160
Speaker 1: occupied Palestinian territories. And she was killed last month. And

2464
02:35:20,720 --> 02:35:22,280
Speaker 1: you might have heard of it, you might have not.

2465
02:35:22,480 --> 02:35:26,160
Speaker 1: But I think her death deserves some more attention. And

2466
02:35:26,240 --> 02:35:31,720
Speaker 1: I also think it reflects a bigger issue. Um, let's

2467
02:35:31,720 --> 02:35:35,119
Speaker 1: just jump right in. She was killed by Israeli soldiers

2468
02:35:35,160 --> 02:35:39,680
Speaker 1: on May eleven. UM. And although Israel commits these kinds

2469
02:35:39,720 --> 02:35:43,240
Speaker 1: of like vile crimes against humanity and against Palestinians virtually

2470
02:35:43,280 --> 02:35:47,520
Speaker 1: every day, including but not limited to murder, torture, imprisonment, harassment,

2471
02:35:47,600 --> 02:35:51,520
Speaker 1: force displacement aka ethnic cleansing, um, Israel gets away with

2472
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:54,199
Speaker 1: its crimes every time. And last episode we talked about

2473
02:35:54,200 --> 02:35:57,200
Speaker 1: how the media enforces a blameless view of Israel and

2474
02:35:57,280 --> 02:36:00,360
Speaker 1: how that's an element to all the passes it was eaves.

2475
02:36:00,840 --> 02:36:02,800
Speaker 1: And even though I'm going to focus mostly on one

2476
02:36:02,800 --> 02:36:05,680
Speaker 1: woman's death in this episode, like I said, she represents

2477
02:36:05,760 --> 02:36:08,320
Speaker 1: something so much more. And while I wish I can

2478
02:36:08,400 --> 02:36:11,480
Speaker 1: give every victim of Israel an entire episode. I would

2479
02:36:11,480 --> 02:36:15,160
Speaker 1: take a million episodes. Um. So here we are Palestinians

2480
02:36:15,160 --> 02:36:17,520
Speaker 1: live in a constant state of trauma, and there's no

2481
02:36:17,640 --> 02:36:20,560
Speaker 1: time to grieve. They're dead, and even when they do grieve,

2482
02:36:20,680 --> 02:36:22,840
Speaker 1: it becomes a target for the I d F, which

2483
02:36:22,879 --> 02:36:25,200
Speaker 1: I'll get into later, but I want to tell you

2484
02:36:25,240 --> 02:36:28,400
Speaker 1: for now how Sharne was killed. For a while, there

2485
02:36:28,440 --> 02:36:30,880
Speaker 1: was only one video, which should be more than enough,

2486
02:36:30,920 --> 02:36:33,320
Speaker 1: but I digress. There's only one video in the beginning

2487
02:36:33,360 --> 02:36:36,240
Speaker 1: that seemed to prove that Sharne was targeted and assassinated

2488
02:36:36,280 --> 02:36:39,000
Speaker 1: despite wearing a press vest. She had been standing with

2489
02:36:39,000 --> 02:36:41,280
Speaker 1: a group of journalists near the entrance of the Agenda

2490
02:36:41,320 --> 02:36:44,600
Speaker 1: refugee camp, where the journalists were there to cover uh

2491
02:36:44,640 --> 02:36:48,120
Speaker 1: in Israeli raid. While the footage does not show of

2492
02:36:48,720 --> 02:36:52,000
Speaker 1: being killed, eye witnesses told CNN that they believe Israeli

2493
02:36:52,040 --> 02:36:55,640
Speaker 1: forces on the same street deliberately fired on the reporters

2494
02:36:55,920 --> 02:36:59,000
Speaker 1: in a targeted attack. All of the journalists were wearing

2495
02:36:59,040 --> 02:37:02,800
Speaker 1: protective blue vest and um they identified themselves as a

2496
02:37:02,800 --> 02:37:05,520
Speaker 1: member of the news media to the Israelis that were

2497
02:37:05,520 --> 02:37:09,000
Speaker 1: across the street. So this video This first video was

2498
02:37:09,080 --> 02:37:11,920
Speaker 1: filmed by al Jazi or a cameraman Meschi Banura, and

2499
02:37:11,959 --> 02:37:14,640
Speaker 1: it shows that round six thirty am on May eleventh

2500
02:37:14,680 --> 02:37:18,800
Speaker 1: and Genin, multiple shots are fired. The cameraman filming the

2501
02:37:18,840 --> 02:37:22,320
Speaker 1: scene scrambles backwards to take cover behind a low concrete wall.

2502
02:37:22,760 --> 02:37:26,800
Speaker 1: The man cries out in Arabic Sharine injured, Sharine, ambulance.

2503
02:37:27,360 --> 02:37:31,119
Speaker 1: When the camera finally pans around the corner, you see

2504
02:37:31,120 --> 02:37:35,880
Speaker 1: Sharine lying motionless on the ground, face down, and another

2505
02:37:35,920 --> 02:37:40,199
Speaker 1: Palestine reporter shaped the Handsha She She crouches down beside

2506
02:37:40,200 --> 02:37:43,320
Speaker 1: her and uses a tree chunk for cover. She reaches

2507
02:37:43,360 --> 02:37:46,680
Speaker 1: out and tries to get her colleague. The gunshots continue

2508
02:37:47,280 --> 02:37:50,200
Speaker 1: and there's no response. Both women are wearing helmets and

2509
02:37:50,200 --> 02:37:54,279
Speaker 1: blue protective vests. Mark Press and in the moments that followed,

2510
02:37:54,280 --> 02:37:56,080
Speaker 1: there's a man in a white shirt that makes several

2511
02:37:56,120 --> 02:38:00,480
Speaker 1: attempts to move a Buckle's body Uh and is forced

2512
02:38:00,480 --> 02:38:04,320
Speaker 1: to repeatedly back away by gunfire, and after a few

2513
02:38:04,440 --> 02:38:07,720
Speaker 1: very long minutes, he manages to drag her body from

2514
02:38:07,760 --> 02:38:12,240
Speaker 1: the street. One of the reporters, Hanaisia. She told CNN

2515
02:38:12,400 --> 02:38:14,920
Speaker 1: that we stood in front of the Israeli military vehicles

2516
02:38:14,959 --> 02:38:17,960
Speaker 1: for about five to ten minutes before we made moves

2517
02:38:18,000 --> 02:38:20,199
Speaker 1: to ensure that they saw us. This is a habit

2518
02:38:20,200 --> 02:38:22,320
Speaker 1: of ours as journalists. We move as a group and

2519
02:38:22,320 --> 02:38:24,000
Speaker 1: we stay in front of them so they know we

2520
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:27,959
Speaker 1: are journalists, and then we start moving. So this is

2521
02:38:28,120 --> 02:38:31,600
Speaker 1: like they do this cautious approach every time towards when

2522
02:38:31,640 --> 02:38:34,800
Speaker 1: they're in the midst of the Israeli military so they

2523
02:38:34,840 --> 02:38:37,800
Speaker 1: can be safe. And she says that I didn't think

2524
02:38:37,800 --> 02:38:40,520
Speaker 1: they were trying to kill us. On the day of

2525
02:38:40,520 --> 02:38:44,720
Speaker 1: the shooting, is really military spokesperson Ran Katchov told Army

2526
02:38:44,840 --> 02:38:48,240
Speaker 1: Radio that Abu Akla had been filming and working for

2527
02:38:48,280 --> 02:38:52,720
Speaker 1: a media outlet amidst armed Palestinians. He said, they're armed

2528
02:38:52,720 --> 02:38:56,080
Speaker 1: with cameras, if you'll permit me to say so. According

2529
02:38:56,120 --> 02:39:00,840
Speaker 1: to the Times of Israel, the Israeli military says it

2530
02:39:01,000 --> 02:39:03,520
Speaker 1: is not clear who fired the fatal shot, and in

2531
02:39:03,560 --> 02:39:05,920
Speaker 1: a preliminary inquiry, the army said that there was a

2532
02:39:05,920 --> 02:39:09,800
Speaker 1: possibility that she was either hit by an indiscriminate Palestinian

2533
02:39:09,800 --> 02:39:14,640
Speaker 1: gunfire or by Israeli sniper positioned about two ds away

2534
02:39:14,680 --> 02:39:17,480
Speaker 1: that was in an exchange with a Palestinian gunmen, So

2535
02:39:18,080 --> 02:39:21,120
Speaker 1: no blame to the Israelis at all. The i d

2536
02:39:21,320 --> 02:39:24,040
Speaker 1: F said that on May nineteenth had not yet decided

2537
02:39:24,040 --> 02:39:27,200
Speaker 1: whether to pursue a criminal investigation into her death. On

2538
02:39:27,280 --> 02:39:31,199
Speaker 1: May three, the Israeli military's top lawyer, Major General Yafat

2539
02:39:31,280 --> 02:39:34,640
Speaker 1: tomd you you're a shelm me. I'm sorry, I probably

2540
02:39:35,440 --> 02:39:37,240
Speaker 1: saying that wrong, but he said in a speech that

2541
02:39:37,320 --> 02:39:40,880
Speaker 1: under the military's policy, a criminal investigation is not automatically

2542
02:39:40,959 --> 02:39:43,440
Speaker 1: launched if a person is killed in quote the midst

2543
02:39:43,520 --> 02:39:46,480
Speaker 1: of an active combat zone, unless there is credible and

2544
02:39:46,520 --> 02:39:50,400
Speaker 1: immediate suspicion of a criminal offense. A lot of US

2545
02:39:50,480 --> 02:39:53,720
Speaker 1: lawmakers and UH, the U N and international community have

2546
02:39:53,760 --> 02:39:56,360
Speaker 1: called for an independent probe, which hasn't really met anything

2547
02:39:56,360 --> 02:40:00,720
Speaker 1: because it's not happening. An investigation by CNN. Uh, it

2548
02:40:00,760 --> 02:40:03,640
Speaker 1: offers a lot of new evidence and UH, it's an

2549
02:40:03,640 --> 02:40:06,039
Speaker 1: investigation that really respect. The article is really well done.

2550
02:40:06,040 --> 02:40:08,279
Speaker 1: It will be in the sources whenever that comes out whatever.

2551
02:40:08,720 --> 02:40:12,560
Speaker 1: But this report, this investigation included two videos of the

2552
02:40:12,600 --> 02:40:16,720
Speaker 1: scene of the shooting. Uh. There was no active combat

2553
02:40:17,000 --> 02:40:21,680
Speaker 1: nor any Palestinian militants near Abo the moment that led

2554
02:40:21,760 --> 02:40:24,200
Speaker 1: up to her death, and the videos are Crow crob

2555
02:40:24,280 --> 02:40:28,240
Speaker 1: raided by testimony from eight eyewitnesses, an audio forensic analysts,

2556
02:40:28,240 --> 02:40:31,800
Speaker 1: and an explosive weapons expert that suggests that she was

2557
02:40:31,840 --> 02:40:35,320
Speaker 1: shot dead in a targeted attack by Israeli forces. A

2558
02:40:35,320 --> 02:40:38,800
Speaker 1: lot of the footage shows a calm scene before the

2559
02:40:38,840 --> 02:40:41,720
Speaker 1: reporters came under fire in the outskirts of the jen

2560
02:40:41,840 --> 02:40:45,359
Speaker 1: And refugee camp. The other journalists and three local residents

2561
02:40:45,400 --> 02:40:47,440
Speaker 1: said that it had been a normal morning in Jenin.

2562
02:40:47,959 --> 02:40:51,800
Speaker 1: It's home to about three forty five thousand people, eleven

2563
02:40:52,120 --> 02:40:55,000
Speaker 1: thousand and four hundred of whom live in the refugee camp.

2564
02:40:55,520 --> 02:40:58,000
Speaker 1: Many this morning were on their way to work or school,

2565
02:40:58,440 --> 02:41:02,720
Speaker 1: and the street was relatively quiet it. Sharienabu Klea was

2566
02:41:02,800 --> 02:41:05,840
Speaker 1: a veteran journalist. She's a household name across the Arab

2567
02:41:05,879 --> 02:41:09,000
Speaker 1: world for her coverage of Israel and Palestine and Israel's

2568
02:41:09,000 --> 02:41:12,400
Speaker 1: occupation of the Palestinian territories. She arrived in Jenna to

2569
02:41:12,400 --> 02:41:15,800
Speaker 1: report on the raid uh. She was an icon. She's

2570
02:41:15,800 --> 02:41:18,440
Speaker 1: really loved, or was really loved and admired by the

2571
02:41:18,560 --> 02:41:20,520
Speaker 1: entire Arab world. It's weird to use past tense. It's

2572
02:41:20,560 --> 02:41:23,120
Speaker 1: really sad for me. But when she arrived there but

2573
02:41:23,200 --> 02:41:25,560
Speaker 1: a dozen or so men, some dressed in sweats or

2574
02:41:25,560 --> 02:41:28,039
Speaker 1: flip flops, They had gathered to watch Abu Klea and

2575
02:41:28,080 --> 02:41:31,800
Speaker 1: her colleagues at work. They were milling around, chatting, some

2576
02:41:31,879 --> 02:41:34,560
Speaker 1: smoking cigarettes, and others were filming the scene on their phones.

2577
02:41:35,160 --> 02:41:39,240
Speaker 1: In one sixteen minute cell phone video, the man filming

2578
02:41:39,400 --> 02:41:42,360
Speaker 1: walks towards the spot where journalists had gathered, zooming in

2579
02:41:42,400 --> 02:41:44,560
Speaker 1: on the Israeli armored vehicles that were parked in the

2580
02:41:44,600 --> 02:41:47,280
Speaker 1: distance that they could see, and he says, look at

2581
02:41:47,280 --> 02:41:51,320
Speaker 1: the snipers. This is before anything had happened. And a

2582
02:41:51,360 --> 02:41:55,120
Speaker 1: teenager in this video that he peers tentatively over the

2583
02:41:55,120 --> 02:41:57,400
Speaker 1: street and he shouts, don't kid around. Do you think

2584
02:41:57,440 --> 02:41:59,240
Speaker 1: it's a joke. We don't want to die, We want

2585
02:41:59,280 --> 02:42:03,400
Speaker 1: to live. The person that recorded the sixteen minute video

2586
02:42:03,440 --> 02:42:06,360
Speaker 1: Salim Awad. He's a twenty seven year old jedd And

2587
02:42:06,480 --> 02:42:10,880
Speaker 1: Camp refugee resident who filmed the video and told CNN

2588
02:42:10,959 --> 02:42:13,440
Speaker 1: that there were no armed Palestinians or any clashes of

2589
02:42:13,440 --> 02:42:15,800
Speaker 1: any kind in the area and he hadn't expected there

2590
02:42:15,800 --> 02:42:19,560
Speaker 1: to be gunfire at all given the presence of journalists nearby.

2591
02:42:20,120 --> 02:42:22,480
Speaker 1: He said that there was no conflict or confrontations at all.

2592
02:42:22,600 --> 02:42:25,080
Speaker 1: We were about ten guys give or take, walking around,

2593
02:42:25,200 --> 02:42:28,000
Speaker 1: laughing and joking with journalists. We were not afraid of anything.

2594
02:42:28,080 --> 02:42:30,640
Speaker 1: We didn't expect anything would happen because when we saw

2595
02:42:30,760 --> 02:42:34,640
Speaker 1: journalists around, we thought it would be a safe area. Obviously,

2596
02:42:34,720 --> 02:42:38,160
Speaker 1: the situation changed rapidly, and he said that the shooting

2597
02:42:38,200 --> 02:42:40,840
Speaker 1: broke out about seven minutes after he arrived at the scene,

2598
02:42:41,280 --> 02:42:44,080
Speaker 1: and his video captures this, and he also captures the

2599
02:42:44,080 --> 02:42:46,720
Speaker 1: moments that the shots were fired at the four journalists.

2600
02:42:47,200 --> 02:42:51,480
Speaker 1: And the four journalists by the way uh Abuka that

2601
02:42:51,480 --> 02:42:55,920
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, another Palestinian journalist Jahil Sadi, and then

2602
02:42:56,080 --> 02:42:59,360
Speaker 1: the L Jazeera producer Ali Elsa Maudi, who was injured

2603
02:42:59,360 --> 02:43:02,440
Speaker 1: in the gunfire. But these four journalists, they walked towards

2604
02:43:02,440 --> 02:43:05,560
Speaker 1: the Israeli vehicles. They showed them that their pressed in

2605
02:43:05,600 --> 02:43:09,280
Speaker 1: the footage, as the gunfire starts, can be seen turning

2606
02:43:09,320 --> 02:43:12,440
Speaker 1: away from the barrage, and then the footage shows a

2607
02:43:12,480 --> 02:43:17,800
Speaker 1: direct line of sight towards the Israeli convoy. He said,

2608
02:43:18,000 --> 02:43:20,480
Speaker 1: we saw around four or five military vehicles on that

2609
02:43:20,600 --> 02:43:22,600
Speaker 1: street with rifles sticking out of them, and one of

2610
02:43:22,600 --> 02:43:25,280
Speaker 1: them shot Sharine. We were standing right there. We saw it.

2611
02:43:25,480 --> 02:43:27,560
Speaker 1: When we tried to approach her, they shot at us.

2612
02:43:28,200 --> 02:43:30,400
Speaker 1: I tried to cross the street to help, but I couldn't.

2613
02:43:31,120 --> 02:43:34,080
Speaker 1: He added that he saw a bullet strike a lackland

2614
02:43:34,120 --> 02:43:37,680
Speaker 1: then gap between her helmet and her protectivest right by

2615
02:43:37,720 --> 02:43:42,879
Speaker 1: her ear. Another sixteen year old he was among the

2616
02:43:42,879 --> 02:43:45,320
Speaker 1: group of men and boys on the street, told CNN

2617
02:43:45,400 --> 02:43:47,920
Speaker 1: that they were no shots fired, no stone throwing, nothing

2618
02:43:48,360 --> 02:43:50,600
Speaker 1: when she was shot. And he said that journalists had

2619
02:43:50,600 --> 02:43:52,600
Speaker 1: told them to not follow them as they walked towards

2620
02:43:52,680 --> 02:43:55,480
Speaker 1: these really forces to identify themselves, so they so he

2621
02:43:55,520 --> 02:43:58,320
Speaker 1: stayed back, and then when gunfire broke out, he ducked

2622
02:43:58,320 --> 02:44:01,000
Speaker 1: behind a car in the road and he watched the

2623
02:44:01,040 --> 02:44:04,000
Speaker 1: moment that Shrine was killed, and he shared his video

2624
02:44:04,000 --> 02:44:06,920
Speaker 1: with CNN that was filmed at six thirty six am,

2625
02:44:07,080 --> 02:44:09,920
Speaker 1: just after the journalist left the scene too for the hospital,

2626
02:44:10,440 --> 02:44:14,080
Speaker 1: and it showed the five Israeli army vehicles driving slowly

2627
02:44:14,120 --> 02:44:18,080
Speaker 1: past the spot where Sharne was killed before leaving the camp.

2628
02:44:18,720 --> 02:44:22,080
Speaker 1: CNN reviewed a total of eleven videos showing the scene

2629
02:44:22,120 --> 02:44:26,000
Speaker 1: and the Israeli military convoy from different angles, before, during,

2630
02:44:26,040 --> 02:44:30,320
Speaker 1: and after a was killed. Eyewitnesses who were filming when

2631
02:44:30,320 --> 02:44:32,680
Speaker 1: the journalist was shot, were also in the line of fire,

2632
02:44:32,720 --> 02:44:35,120
Speaker 1: and they pulled back when the gunfire started, so it

2633
02:44:35,120 --> 02:44:37,440
Speaker 1: doesn't capture the exact moment that she was hit with

2634
02:44:37,480 --> 02:44:40,120
Speaker 1: the bullet, which I think is the little amount of

2635
02:44:40,680 --> 02:44:44,400
Speaker 1: sliver of space that Israel needs to be like. It

2636
02:44:44,440 --> 02:44:47,520
Speaker 1: wasn't us, but obviously it was our multiple witnesses. There

2637
02:44:47,600 --> 02:44:52,680
Speaker 1: multiple videos that show it. Um. But regardless, there wasn't

2638
02:44:52,720 --> 02:44:55,920
Speaker 1: a clash, there wasn't any Palestinian gunfire. The idea for

2639
02:44:55,959 --> 02:44:59,840
Speaker 1: shooting directly at the journalists and they assassinated Sharine. A. Buachl,

2640
02:45:01,160 --> 02:45:04,760
Speaker 1: a senior is really security official, flatly denied to CNN

2641
02:45:04,760 --> 02:45:08,560
Speaker 1: on May eighth that has really troops killed her intentionally.

2642
02:45:08,959 --> 02:45:12,280
Speaker 1: The officials spoke under the condition of anonymity to discuss

2643
02:45:12,360 --> 02:45:17,480
Speaker 1: details about an investigation that remains formally open. UH. The

2644
02:45:17,520 --> 02:45:19,720
Speaker 1: officials said, in no way would the I d F

2645
02:45:19,840 --> 02:45:22,920
Speaker 1: ever target a civilian, especially a member of the press.

2646
02:45:23,920 --> 02:45:26,120
Speaker 1: An I d F soldier would never fire at M

2647
02:45:26,160 --> 02:45:31,160
Speaker 1: sixteen on automatic. They shoot bullet by bullet. Uh. This

2648
02:45:31,280 --> 02:45:35,200
Speaker 1: is in contrast with israel assertion that Palestinian militants were

2649
02:45:35,240 --> 02:45:39,240
Speaker 1: firing recklessly and indiscriminately while its soldiers conducted the raid.

2650
02:45:39,280 --> 02:45:44,480
Speaker 1: In Genin, there's a security consultant and British Army veteran

2651
02:45:44,680 --> 02:45:48,600
Speaker 1: Cobb Smith uh. He told CNN that he believed Doubly

2652
02:45:48,760 --> 02:45:51,360
Speaker 1: was killed in discrete shots, not by a burst of

2653
02:45:51,400 --> 02:45:54,320
Speaker 1: automatic gunfire, and to reach the conclusion, he looked at

2654
02:45:54,320 --> 02:45:57,680
Speaker 1: imagery obtained by CNN that showed markings that the bullets

2655
02:45:57,760 --> 02:46:01,680
Speaker 1: left behind on the tree where she had fallen and

2656
02:46:01,800 --> 02:46:05,640
Speaker 1: her other colleague was taken cover. He told CNN that

2657
02:46:05,879 --> 02:46:08,320
Speaker 1: the number of strike marks on the tree where Sharine

2658
02:46:08,320 --> 02:46:11,120
Speaker 1: was standing proves this wasn't a random shot. She was

2659
02:46:11,160 --> 02:46:14,480
Speaker 1: targeted at two. He said that there was no chance

2660
02:46:14,520 --> 02:46:16,840
Speaker 1: that the random firing would result in the three or

2661
02:46:16,879 --> 02:46:20,160
Speaker 1: four shots hitting such a light or such a tight configuration.

2662
02:46:21,000 --> 02:46:23,039
Speaker 1: From the strike marks on the tree, it appears that

2663
02:46:23,080 --> 02:46:26,240
Speaker 1: the shots, one of which hit Sharine, came from down

2664
02:46:26,240 --> 02:46:28,400
Speaker 1: the street from the direction of the I d F troops.

2665
02:46:28,840 --> 02:46:32,000
Speaker 1: The relatively tight grouping of the rounds indicate Sharine was

2666
02:46:32,040 --> 02:46:35,080
Speaker 1: intentionally targeted with aim shots and not the victim of

2667
02:46:35,080 --> 02:46:39,280
Speaker 1: a random or stray fire. This tree is now referred

2668
02:46:39,320 --> 02:46:42,280
Speaker 1: to in Jenin as the Journalist Tree and has become

2669
02:46:42,320 --> 02:46:45,760
Speaker 1: a makeshift shrine to ebo Auklet with photographs of the

2670
02:46:45,760 --> 02:46:50,279
Speaker 1: beloved reporter taped to the trunk and Palestinian hafia scarves

2671
02:46:50,280 --> 02:46:53,119
Speaker 1: the checkered, not checkered, but like the black and white

2672
02:46:53,120 --> 02:46:57,600
Speaker 1: scarves that you probably see Palestine and protests UH draped

2673
02:46:57,640 --> 02:47:01,240
Speaker 1: on the branches. She was lugged by very many and

2674
02:47:01,360 --> 02:47:04,600
Speaker 1: the entirety of Palestine, everyone who supports its liberation, have

2675
02:47:04,720 --> 02:47:09,240
Speaker 1: been grieving for this like insurmountable loss. Uh. And to

2676
02:47:09,360 --> 02:47:13,600
Speaker 1: look this discussion back into yesterday's extreme media bias episode

2677
02:47:14,360 --> 02:47:18,320
Speaker 1: where the media favors Israel. Here are a few headlines

2678
02:47:18,360 --> 02:47:23,039
Speaker 1: that describe her murder. The New York Times said, Sharine

2679
02:47:23,040 --> 02:47:28,440
Speaker 1: abu akly, trailblazing Palestinian journalists dies at fifty one. She

2680
02:47:28,600 --> 02:47:36,760
Speaker 1: dies from what heart failure disease? Like and I will

2681
02:47:36,800 --> 02:47:40,000
Speaker 1: I will, I will bet you. And this is not

2682
02:47:40,120 --> 02:47:44,640
Speaker 1: to let the the the New the New York Times

2683
02:47:44,640 --> 02:47:46,320
Speaker 1: off the hook, but I will bet you the fact

2684
02:47:46,360 --> 02:47:49,800
Speaker 1: that the title even acknowledged her death that much was

2685
02:47:49,959 --> 02:47:53,840
Speaker 1: the result of a tremendous battle behind the scenes, for sure,

2686
02:47:54,000 --> 02:47:59,120
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, it's which they wouldn't do for anybody else, right,

2687
02:47:59,200 --> 02:48:01,760
Speaker 1: Like they would, they would fucking immediately call out, like

2688
02:48:01,800 --> 02:48:04,280
Speaker 1: the Russian military or even the U. S Military if

2689
02:48:04,320 --> 02:48:07,440
Speaker 1: it had killed an American journalist, which I'm not saying that.

2690
02:48:07,680 --> 02:48:09,080
Speaker 1: I don't think it's you know, I'm going to bring

2691
02:48:09,160 --> 02:48:10,800
Speaker 1: that up right now than if she was Palestinian. No,

2692
02:48:10,800 --> 02:48:13,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to bring that up right now. Brent Renaud,

2693
02:48:13,320 --> 02:48:15,800
Speaker 1: he's an American journalist that was killed in Ukraine. There

2694
02:48:15,800 --> 02:48:19,320
Speaker 1: were two headlines that were that for articles. His headline

2695
02:48:19,360 --> 02:48:23,840
Speaker 1: read an American journalist killed in Ukraine. Hers said a

2696
02:48:23,920 --> 02:48:27,600
Speaker 1: Palestinian journalist dies at fifty one. Keep in mind, Sharine

2697
02:48:27,680 --> 02:48:30,680
Speaker 1: is a it's a Palestinian American. Not that it fucking matters,

2698
02:48:30,720 --> 02:48:33,520
Speaker 1: but these are both American journalists and they were killed

2699
02:48:33,520 --> 02:48:37,440
Speaker 1: working on their assignment. It matters to highlight the hypocrisy,

2700
02:48:37,480 --> 02:48:41,240
Speaker 1: not because one nationality of journalist is less worthy of

2701
02:48:41,240 --> 02:48:44,320
Speaker 1: being killed than another. I mean even it's even frustrating

2702
02:48:44,400 --> 02:48:49,360
Speaker 1: that their their value of life is even greater because

2703
02:48:49,360 --> 02:48:52,560
Speaker 1: they're a quote unquote journalist. Yes, there's a lot that's

2704
02:48:52,560 --> 02:48:57,400
Speaker 1: frustrating about it. They can killed dozens of like Palestinian

2705
02:48:57,920 --> 02:49:01,160
Speaker 1: people and it doesn't matter, But one quote unquote American

2706
02:49:01,240 --> 02:49:03,320
Speaker 1: journalist eyes, and now it's a big story, which like

2707
02:49:03,640 --> 02:49:06,160
Speaker 1: it's horrible, it would be. They're not not downplay how

2708
02:49:06,200 --> 02:49:09,760
Speaker 1: bad it is. But I am really uncomfortable with how

2709
02:49:09,840 --> 02:49:13,000
Speaker 1: much emphasis we put on like Americans. And then of

2710
02:49:13,000 --> 02:49:15,240
Speaker 1: course just like someone being a journalist as opposed to

2711
02:49:15,240 --> 02:49:18,760
Speaker 1: just like people who are like worshiping or killing people

2712
02:49:18,760 --> 02:49:21,879
Speaker 1: in the street, right, who are just regular Palestinians. And

2713
02:49:21,920 --> 02:49:24,680
Speaker 1: that's that's a whole other aspect. You know, war zone,

2714
02:49:24,760 --> 02:49:27,720
Speaker 1: the only like ethically, really the only division should be

2715
02:49:27,720 --> 02:49:32,160
Speaker 1: between soldiers, people under arms and civilians who are not

2716
02:49:32,440 --> 02:49:35,800
Speaker 1: right um, and it should always be seen as like

2717
02:49:35,879 --> 02:49:39,440
Speaker 1: a tragedy and a mistake worthy of like some sort

2718
02:49:39,640 --> 02:49:43,400
Speaker 1: of restitution or vengeance when civilians are killed by soldiers

2719
02:49:43,400 --> 02:49:45,720
Speaker 1: in a war zone like that would be ideal. But

2720
02:49:45,800 --> 02:49:50,879
Speaker 1: also you know the world, that's what it is. But no,

2721
02:49:51,080 --> 02:49:54,440
Speaker 1: I second everything you guys said. And I'm looking at

2722
02:49:54,520 --> 02:49:58,120
Speaker 1: tweet from Amon Martin Dean. He's an Egyptian board journalist

2723
02:49:58,120 --> 02:50:00,680
Speaker 1: that's based in New York and he works for NBC MSNBC.

2724
02:50:01,360 --> 02:50:04,920
Speaker 1: But he tweeted this contrast these headlines of right Renaud,

2725
02:50:05,040 --> 02:50:08,480
Speaker 1: an American journalist killed in Ukraine, and Sharina Buccoli, a

2726
02:50:08,560 --> 02:50:13,640
Speaker 1: Palestinian journalists dying at fifty one. Like, first of all, everything,

2727
02:50:13,640 --> 02:50:15,720
Speaker 1: you guys, just it's it's repetitive at this point to

2728
02:50:15,800 --> 02:50:18,960
Speaker 1: keep talking about it. But they've stripped her of her

2729
02:50:19,000 --> 02:50:24,360
Speaker 1: American identity. Her Palestinian identity erases um the importance that

2730
02:50:24,400 --> 02:50:27,320
Speaker 1: her death has for some reason, because she's not seen

2731
02:50:27,360 --> 02:50:30,800
Speaker 1: that as an American journalist, even though she is. And again,

2732
02:50:30,840 --> 02:50:34,039
Speaker 1: the concept of that being important is ludicrous to begin with.

2733
02:50:34,120 --> 02:50:37,760
Speaker 1: But that's the world. It's still a way to do

2734
02:50:37,920 --> 02:50:40,080
Speaker 1: it's still in their minds. It's still a way to

2735
02:50:40,160 --> 02:50:43,280
Speaker 1: dehumanize them, which is like gross on a whole other level.

2736
02:50:43,720 --> 02:50:46,360
Speaker 1: But it's it's it's yeah, there's there's so many ways

2737
02:50:46,400 --> 02:50:51,160
Speaker 1: that it's horrible that it's hard to even like cover head. Yeah, totally,

2738
02:50:51,520 --> 02:50:56,280
Speaker 1: I agree. And now it's time for a break. And

2739
02:50:56,840 --> 02:51:00,560
Speaker 1: I don't have a great segue, like this is a

2740
02:51:00,600 --> 02:51:09,000
Speaker 1: hard one to you know, who will X the break?

2741
02:51:11,879 --> 02:51:14,200
Speaker 1: We're back. I want to talk about her funeral now,

2742
02:51:14,240 --> 02:51:17,480
Speaker 1: Sharne's funeral. Just to bring up one last headline, I'll

2743
02:51:17,520 --> 02:51:20,440
Speaker 1: get into a half at the funeral. But the BBC

2744
02:51:20,600 --> 02:51:24,480
Speaker 1: News said that Sharine abu Akle violence at Al Jazeera

2745
02:51:24,560 --> 02:51:28,600
Speaker 1: reporter's funeral in Jerusalem. Side note, Even saying that she's

2746
02:51:28,600 --> 02:51:31,200
Speaker 1: an El Jazeera reporter versus just like an American journalist

2747
02:51:31,240 --> 02:51:34,120
Speaker 1: is another way to dehumanize her because Al Jazeera is

2748
02:51:34,160 --> 02:51:39,280
Speaker 1: seen as like this scary Arabic organization. It's like, oh,

2749
02:51:39,440 --> 02:51:43,160
Speaker 1: they're brown people, is what they're trying to say exactly.

2750
02:51:43,720 --> 02:51:46,280
Speaker 1: And the real headline that should have been shared is

2751
02:51:46,320 --> 02:51:49,640
Speaker 1: that Israeli forces were attacking and beating Palestinian mortars at

2752
02:51:49,680 --> 02:51:54,720
Speaker 1: her funeral. Let's talk about that. The Friday following her death, May,

2753
02:51:55,520 --> 02:51:59,400
Speaker 1: a funeral procession was held for Sharine in Jerusalem, but

2754
02:51:59,520 --> 02:52:01,920
Speaker 1: her funeral role was marred by another burst of violence

2755
02:52:02,160 --> 02:52:05,840
Speaker 1: early that afternoon, as thousands of people masked East Jerusalem

2756
02:52:05,959 --> 02:52:09,000
Speaker 1: for one of the largest Palestinian funerals in recent memory.

2757
02:52:09,320 --> 02:52:11,879
Speaker 1: A mob of Israeli riot police assaulted a group of

2758
02:52:11,920 --> 02:52:15,560
Speaker 1: mourners that were carrying the casket containing her body, uh

2759
02:52:15,560 --> 02:52:18,800
Speaker 1: and they almost dropped the casket because of the attack.

2760
02:52:19,360 --> 02:52:21,640
Speaker 1: There are videos of this and it was streamed live

2761
02:52:21,800 --> 02:52:25,160
Speaker 1: at one point, and it shows Idea soldiers clearly attacking

2762
02:52:25,400 --> 02:52:28,680
Speaker 1: people holding up a coffin, a coffin holding the body

2763
02:52:28,720 --> 02:52:33,000
Speaker 1: of someone Palestine loved, um, and they're just attempting to mourn.

2764
02:52:33,080 --> 02:52:36,360
Speaker 1: And even this is deemed punishable by Israel. I want

2765
02:52:36,360 --> 02:52:38,400
Speaker 1: to bring up that it was live and then all

2766
02:52:38,440 --> 02:52:42,640
Speaker 1: these videos are shown because there's just so many videos

2767
02:52:42,680 --> 02:52:48,560
Speaker 1: of a blatant blame like blatant attacks by Israeli's and uh,

2768
02:52:48,600 --> 02:52:54,920
Speaker 1: the Israeli military, and that that's not enough to condemn anything. Um.

2769
02:52:54,959 --> 02:52:58,240
Speaker 1: And there were no weapon, there was no provoking on

2770
02:52:58,360 --> 02:53:02,400
Speaker 1: any of any kind on the side of Palestinians. And again,

2771
02:53:02,440 --> 02:53:04,360
Speaker 1: like we have thousands of videos like this and the

2772
02:53:04,360 --> 02:53:07,600
Speaker 1: idea of clearly beating and at times killing Palestinians and

2773
02:53:07,640 --> 02:53:11,360
Speaker 1: nothing happens. Um. It's like similar to me of videos

2774
02:53:11,360 --> 02:53:14,200
Speaker 1: of police brutality in the US. Uh. They both keep

2775
02:53:14,280 --> 02:53:16,560
Speaker 1: doing it because they know they can't keep they won't

2776
02:53:16,560 --> 02:53:19,360
Speaker 1: be punished. Um. If this is what they duan camera,

2777
02:53:19,400 --> 02:53:20,880
Speaker 1: you can only imagine what they do off camera and

2778
02:53:20,879 --> 02:53:24,440
Speaker 1: when it's not being captured. Uh. In a separate episode,

2779
02:53:24,440 --> 02:53:27,280
Speaker 1: I'm sure I can bring up the crossover of Israel

2780
02:53:27,360 --> 02:53:32,560
Speaker 1: and US police because Israel trains US police um, and

2781
02:53:32,600 --> 02:53:36,680
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of connection there, But I digress. Um.

2782
02:53:36,720 --> 02:53:40,400
Speaker 1: It's just really horrifying if they know that this is

2783
02:53:40,440 --> 02:53:42,960
Speaker 1: all being captured, it doesn't stop them. It doesn't matter.

2784
02:53:44,240 --> 02:53:47,280
Speaker 1: And this assault occurred outside a hospital in East Jerusalem,

2785
02:53:47,360 --> 02:53:50,320
Speaker 1: where her body had been kept since another memorial happened

2786
02:53:50,320 --> 02:53:53,000
Speaker 1: the day before on Thursday, where hundreds had gathered to

2787
02:53:53,040 --> 02:53:57,520
Speaker 1: witness the start of her funeral cortage. Tensions arose between

2788
02:53:57,560 --> 02:54:01,279
Speaker 1: Palestinians and these really police officers after Palestinians began waving

2789
02:54:01,280 --> 02:54:05,320
Speaker 1: Palestinian flags. Things escalated after the police refused to allow

2790
02:54:05,400 --> 02:54:08,119
Speaker 1: mourners to take the coffin on their shoulders to the church,

2791
02:54:08,440 --> 02:54:11,920
Speaker 1: and then they began beating anyone in sight. The Israeli

2792
02:54:12,000 --> 02:54:15,279
Speaker 1: police later said that they had intervened because the mourners

2793
02:54:15,360 --> 02:54:17,600
Speaker 1: who wanted to carry the coffin by foot to the

2794
02:54:17,640 --> 02:54:20,760
Speaker 1: funeral had refused to put it in a hearse, which

2795
02:54:20,760 --> 02:54:23,360
Speaker 1: is an arrangement the police said had previously been agreed

2796
02:54:23,400 --> 02:54:27,840
Speaker 1: upon by her family. This obviously is address cause for

2797
02:54:28,440 --> 02:54:32,119
Speaker 1: starting to beat people um, which is absurd. It's so

2798
02:54:32,200 --> 02:54:36,760
Speaker 1: absurd because it's just like a traditional mourning. It's they're

2799
02:54:36,800 --> 02:54:41,760
Speaker 1: they're carrying this loved one on their backs, and the

2800
02:54:41,800 --> 02:54:45,679
Speaker 1: fact that she was almost dropped is like horrifying to me, Um,

2801
02:54:45,840 --> 02:54:49,080
Speaker 1: But regardless, there was this standoff between mourners and the

2802
02:54:49,160 --> 02:54:51,959
Speaker 1: police who refused to let them leave with the coffin

2803
02:54:52,040 --> 02:54:54,199
Speaker 1: from the hospital or like in the in the direction

2804
02:54:54,360 --> 02:54:56,840
Speaker 1: from the hospital to the church. And keep in mind

2805
02:54:56,959 --> 02:55:01,720
Speaker 1: again this is the standoff is really unbalanced. One side

2806
02:55:01,720 --> 02:55:04,360
Speaker 1: of it is as heavily armed and wearing helmets and

2807
02:55:04,400 --> 02:55:07,320
Speaker 1: swat gear, and the other side is holding a fucking coffin.

2808
02:55:07,320 --> 02:55:10,480
Speaker 1: And mourning officers swung their batons and they kicked and

2809
02:55:10,520 --> 02:55:14,160
Speaker 1: beat the men carrying the coffin, forcing them backward. They

2810
02:55:14,240 --> 02:55:16,680
Speaker 1: knocked over one man who had backed into the group

2811
02:55:16,800 --> 02:55:18,920
Speaker 1: that was carrying the coffin, and then they proceeded to

2812
02:55:19,000 --> 02:55:21,120
Speaker 1: kick him as he was lying on the ground. This

2813
02:55:21,200 --> 02:55:24,120
Speaker 1: is caught on video. Uh and I don't understand how

2814
02:55:24,120 --> 02:55:28,000
Speaker 1: anyone could possibly defend or gloss over why this happened.

2815
02:55:28,640 --> 02:55:31,119
Speaker 1: And as they were being hit, the coffin carriers briefly

2816
02:55:31,160 --> 02:55:33,560
Speaker 1: lost control, as I said, of one end of the coffin,

2817
02:55:33,760 --> 02:55:37,640
Speaker 1: which sagged suddenly to the ground. Um and mourners through

2818
02:55:37,680 --> 02:55:41,960
Speaker 1: projectiles in response, included what appeared to be a stick

2819
02:55:42,480 --> 02:55:45,080
Speaker 1: it officers through what appeared to be a stun a

2820
02:55:45,120 --> 02:55:49,800
Speaker 1: stunt in smoke grenades in response, so super warranted on

2821
02:55:49,840 --> 02:55:53,160
Speaker 1: their on their side. Um, but this occasion that was

2822
02:55:53,200 --> 02:55:56,200
Speaker 1: intended to be a moment of Catharsis had instead descended

2823
02:55:56,200 --> 02:56:00,480
Speaker 1: into chaos, and it just compounds the indignity the pain

2824
02:56:00,680 --> 02:56:05,280
Speaker 1: that too many Palestinians Abu Akli's death had embodied. And

2825
02:56:05,360 --> 02:56:08,760
Speaker 1: let's quickly fast forward to Sunday May twenty nine, where

2826
02:56:09,200 --> 02:56:12,800
Speaker 1: about seventy thousand Israelis marched through the Old City occupied

2827
02:56:12,840 --> 02:56:17,120
Speaker 1: East Jerusalem, waving Israeli flags, emphasizing that they, in their eyes,

2828
02:56:17,120 --> 02:56:21,000
Speaker 1: were the true rulers of Jerusalem. They were celebrating Jerusalem Day,

2829
02:56:21,040 --> 02:56:23,440
Speaker 1: which is an Israeli holiday that marks the capture of

2830
02:56:23,440 --> 02:56:27,560
Speaker 1: the Old City in nine seven seven also marks the

2831
02:56:27,600 --> 02:56:32,080
Speaker 1: occupation and the subsequent annexation of East Jerusalem, and Palestinians

2832
02:56:32,080 --> 02:56:34,360
Speaker 1: see this event, which passes through the heart of the

2833
02:56:34,440 --> 02:56:38,320
Speaker 1: Muslim center, as a provocation. Last year, the parade helped

2834
02:56:38,320 --> 02:56:42,480
Speaker 1: trigger an eleven day war with Goza militants. This doesn't

2835
02:56:42,520 --> 02:56:45,680
Speaker 1: stop the Paradian papping again, and this year it attracted

2836
02:56:45,680 --> 02:56:50,000
Speaker 1: one of the largest crowds on record. Palestinians old and

2837
02:56:50,080 --> 02:56:54,360
Speaker 1: young were attacked while Israeli forces watched on. Some marchers

2838
02:56:54,560 --> 02:56:57,960
Speaker 1: sprayed pepper spray at Palestinians and journalists. In one video

2839
02:56:57,959 --> 02:57:00,520
Speaker 1: shared on social media, a young Jewish man kicked and

2840
02:57:00,600 --> 02:57:03,680
Speaker 1: sprayed an older Palestinian woman in the face, sending her

2841
02:57:03,680 --> 02:57:07,800
Speaker 1: crumbling to the ground. Police fired rubber bullets, um and

2842
02:57:07,959 --> 02:57:11,360
Speaker 1: use clubs and pepper spray to disperse Palestinian protesters from

2843
02:57:11,360 --> 02:57:14,200
Speaker 1: the area, and all this time Palestinians were forced to

2844
02:57:14,240 --> 02:57:19,039
Speaker 1: listen as ultra nationalist Jews chanted anti Palestinian and Islamophobic

2845
02:57:19,120 --> 02:57:25,080
Speaker 1: chants such as death to Arabs and Muhammad is dead. Um.

2846
02:57:25,240 --> 02:57:30,160
Speaker 1: Groups of Orthodox Jewish youths gathered outside Damascus Gate, waving flags,

2847
02:57:30,160 --> 02:57:34,640
Speaker 1: singing religious and nationalistic songs. The crowds, who were overwhelmingly

2848
02:57:34,800 --> 02:57:38,959
Speaker 1: young Orthodox Jewish men, were shouting the Jewish nation lives

2849
02:57:39,000 --> 02:57:43,440
Speaker 1: before entering the Muslim quarter, one large group chanted death

2850
02:57:43,480 --> 02:57:46,320
Speaker 1: to Arabs and mayor village bird, which is a reference

2851
02:57:46,480 --> 02:57:49,240
Speaker 1: of the ethnic cleansing and the start of the occupation

2852
02:57:49,720 --> 02:57:54,680
Speaker 1: that occurred in and it's one of their very common chants.

2853
02:57:54,720 --> 02:57:58,200
Speaker 1: A lot of Zionists that parade through. These are the

2854
02:57:58,280 --> 02:58:01,959
Speaker 1: two most popular chance, if you want to call them that.

2855
02:58:02,760 --> 02:58:06,760
Speaker 1: Another chance, accompanied by boisterous dancing and the sound of drums.

2856
02:58:07,200 --> 02:58:10,440
Speaker 1: Included a Jew is a soul, an Arab is the

2857
02:58:10,440 --> 02:58:14,760
Speaker 1: son of a whore, and Shofayatte is on fire. And

2858
02:58:14,920 --> 02:58:18,960
Speaker 1: this is a disgusting chant. I mean, they're all disgusting,

2859
02:58:18,959 --> 02:58:21,720
Speaker 1: but this one, Shiffayatta is on fire. It celebrates the

2860
02:58:21,760 --> 02:58:24,800
Speaker 1: murder of fifteen year old Palestinian teenager in Muhammad Abuhadir

2861
02:58:24,920 --> 02:58:30,119
Speaker 1: by Israeli settlers in Jerusalem. And this child was kidnapped

2862
02:58:30,120 --> 02:58:34,240
Speaker 1: by Israeli settlers, tortured, forced to drink gasoline, and burned alive.

2863
02:58:35,040 --> 02:58:38,000
Speaker 1: So that's what they're celebrating when they're saying Shayata is

2864
02:58:38,000 --> 02:58:41,920
Speaker 1: on fire, and there's this tragedy is the focus of

2865
02:58:42,080 --> 02:58:44,560
Speaker 1: a miniseries that HBO did in twenty nineteen, which is

2866
02:58:44,600 --> 02:58:48,280
Speaker 1: pretty good and I recommend watching. It's called Our Boys, Um,

2867
02:58:48,320 --> 02:58:51,320
Speaker 1: and it was created by collaboration of both Israeli filmmakers

2868
02:58:51,320 --> 02:58:54,880
Speaker 1: and Palestinian filmmakers, so I respected their approach to this

2869
02:58:55,000 --> 02:58:56,520
Speaker 1: and I highly recommend watching it if you have the

2870
02:58:56,560 --> 02:59:01,480
Speaker 1: stemach for it. I cried a lot, but it's really good, um. Regardless,

2871
02:59:01,720 --> 02:59:04,680
Speaker 1: settlers were also chanting Sharin is a whore and Sharine

2872
02:59:04,720 --> 02:59:09,320
Speaker 1: is dead. So not only was her funeral this huge,

2873
02:59:09,600 --> 02:59:13,760
Speaker 1: like this huge portrayal of disrespect and in humanity, but

2874
02:59:13,840 --> 02:59:20,000
Speaker 1: this is the sentiment of these ultra nationalist Jewish protesters.

2875
02:59:20,040 --> 02:59:23,400
Speaker 1: They are happy she's dead. That's why she was targeted

2876
02:59:23,400 --> 02:59:25,320
Speaker 1: by the idea of probably they recognized her as a

2877
02:59:25,400 --> 02:59:28,080
Speaker 1: threat and this icon in the eyes of the Palestinians.

2878
02:59:28,680 --> 02:59:31,760
Speaker 1: Prime Minister and of Tally Bennett issued a statement instructing

2879
02:59:31,760 --> 02:59:35,119
Speaker 1: police to show quote no tolerance towards the racist groups.

2880
02:59:35,400 --> 02:59:37,600
Speaker 1: He described them as a minority that came to set

2881
02:59:37,640 --> 02:59:41,560
Speaker 1: the area on fire and vowed to prosecute violent extremists,

2882
02:59:41,640 --> 02:59:45,160
Speaker 1: which never happens and hasn't happened. An article in the

2883
02:59:45,240 --> 02:59:49,240
Speaker 1: Israeli daily Jerusalem Post that interviewed some of the Israelis

2884
02:59:49,280 --> 02:59:53,360
Speaker 1: participating in the march reflected a fervent nationalist mentality that

2885
02:59:53,440 --> 02:59:57,200
Speaker 1: interchanged the words Arabs and terrorists without a second thought.

2886
02:59:59,000 --> 03:00:02,160
Speaker 1: According to this article, most of the marchers are quote

2887
03:00:02,200 --> 03:00:04,959
Speaker 1: not driven by hate for Palestinians, but rather a love

2888
03:00:05,000 --> 03:00:07,200
Speaker 1: for Israel and the constant fear that it might not

2889
03:00:07,280 --> 03:00:10,280
Speaker 1: exist forever. Yeah, it would suck to feel like your

2890
03:00:10,280 --> 03:00:16,600
Speaker 1: home is not going to be around forever. Yeah, exactly. Yes, Uh,

2891
03:00:17,000 --> 03:00:22,440
Speaker 1: the irony is definitely lost on them. It's definitely the

2892
03:00:23,200 --> 03:00:27,280
Speaker 1: yes um. But the director of the Palestinian Forum for

2893
03:00:27,400 --> 03:00:30,920
Speaker 1: Israeli Studies, j Does Anim, she said that the political

2894
03:00:30,959 --> 03:00:34,000
Speaker 1: views of Israelis who attended the march are absolutely not

2895
03:00:34,080 --> 03:00:39,080
Speaker 1: a fringe element of Israeli society. She says, demographically speaking,

2896
03:00:39,160 --> 03:00:42,280
Speaker 1: they are from the religious settler class. They transformed from

2897
03:00:42,280 --> 03:00:45,320
Speaker 1: being a marginal group to an essential part within Israeli

2898
03:00:45,440 --> 03:00:49,280
Speaker 1: society and the Jewish body as a whole. And I

2899
03:00:49,320 --> 03:00:50,720
Speaker 1: mentioned this briefly. I don't know if it was this

2900
03:00:50,760 --> 03:00:53,760
Speaker 1: episode of going before, but former Prime Minister Benjamin and

2901
03:00:53,840 --> 03:00:57,000
Speaker 1: Yah who's twelve year rule bolstered the presence of this

2902
03:00:57,120 --> 03:01:00,160
Speaker 1: class into the mainstream, this very right wing mental be

2903
03:01:00,920 --> 03:01:04,039
Speaker 1: where their figureheads held top positions in state institutions and

2904
03:01:04,040 --> 03:01:09,840
Speaker 1: in various governments. Regardless the current Prime Minister Tally Bennett,

2905
03:01:10,160 --> 03:01:12,560
Speaker 1: he used to be the Minister of the Settlement Council,

2906
03:01:12,879 --> 03:01:16,360
Speaker 1: and that should speak volumes about the change and in

2907
03:01:16,440 --> 03:01:20,760
Speaker 1: the heart of Israeli society. This mentality is really encouraged.

2908
03:01:20,920 --> 03:01:24,760
Speaker 1: And Klanem went on to say the Israeli government is

2909
03:01:24,760 --> 03:01:27,480
Speaker 1: getting more religious and giving more powers to the ultra

2910
03:01:27,640 --> 03:01:31,240
Speaker 1: orthodox factions and to the ultra religious and ultra nationalists,

2911
03:01:31,240 --> 03:01:34,520
Speaker 1: the extreme settlers. It is a continuous shift for the

2912
03:01:34,560 --> 03:01:37,600
Speaker 1: whole society to be on the right of the political spectrum,

2913
03:01:37,920 --> 03:01:42,520
Speaker 1: the fanatical religious and the settler right. And before I

2914
03:01:42,600 --> 03:01:45,280
Speaker 1: continue you further, let's take a second break, because I

2915
03:01:45,320 --> 03:01:47,959
Speaker 1: can rage for a long time. I don't have a

2916
03:01:47,959 --> 03:01:52,280
Speaker 1: segue again, Robert, it's not this is the break, I know,

2917
03:01:52,440 --> 03:01:54,400
Speaker 1: but Sophie still has to believe it because you said it.

2918
03:01:54,520 --> 03:01:59,640
Speaker 1: So my goal has been a conflience. We did it

2919
03:01:59,680 --> 03:02:03,040
Speaker 1: to get or we did it. Okay, we're back. Wow,

2920
03:02:03,720 --> 03:02:06,640
Speaker 1: that wasn't that a fun ad? Okay, let's go back

2921
03:02:06,680 --> 03:02:10,720
Speaker 1: to we were talking about right extremism being like bolstered

2922
03:02:10,720 --> 03:02:14,640
Speaker 1: in Israeli society. Ole Renoi is an Israeli political activist

2923
03:02:14,680 --> 03:02:18,199
Speaker 1: and journalist, and they agreed and described this annual event

2924
03:02:18,360 --> 03:02:22,320
Speaker 1: as a congratuatory, mainstream is Israeli event, and she said

2925
03:02:22,360 --> 03:02:25,120
Speaker 1: the marchers are not the minority, not in numbers, not

2926
03:02:25,160 --> 03:02:29,480
Speaker 1: in ideology, and not in their political status. So regardless

2927
03:02:29,520 --> 03:02:31,600
Speaker 1: of what the Prime Minister says, it's not a fringe

2928
03:02:31,640 --> 03:02:34,360
Speaker 1: element at all. She goes on to say that maybe

2929
03:02:34,440 --> 03:02:36,960
Speaker 1: many Israelis do not like to see photos of an

2930
03:02:36,959 --> 03:02:39,800
Speaker 1: old Palestinian woman being beaten up by a kid, but

2931
03:02:39,879 --> 03:02:43,240
Speaker 1: the march itself is a huge Israeli celebration. It's not

2932
03:02:43,360 --> 03:02:47,160
Speaker 1: something on the political periphery anymore. I also want to

2933
03:02:47,200 --> 03:02:49,800
Speaker 1: quickly mention that as I was writing this, another Palestinian

2934
03:02:49,840 --> 03:02:53,280
Speaker 1: journalist was killed by the IDEA F last week. Thirty

2935
03:02:53,280 --> 03:02:56,320
Speaker 1: one year old lefran I made uh what Esna was

2936
03:02:56,360 --> 03:02:59,959
Speaker 1: shot in the chest. Um at the autub refugee camp

2937
03:03:00,000 --> 03:03:03,080
Speaker 1: and the occupied West Bank, Israel said that she tried

2938
03:03:03,120 --> 03:03:07,080
Speaker 1: to attack a soldier with a knife. In a statement,

2939
03:03:07,120 --> 03:03:09,760
Speaker 1: these really armies, said, an assailant armed with a knife

2940
03:03:09,840 --> 03:03:12,480
Speaker 1: advanced toward an I d F soldier who was conducting

2941
03:03:12,560 --> 03:03:16,840
Speaker 1: routine security activity. However, witnesses told Al Jazira that in

2942
03:03:16,879 --> 03:03:20,080
Speaker 1: their view, she posed little threat to the soldiers. She

2943
03:03:20,120 --> 03:03:22,520
Speaker 1: had just started a new job at a radio station

2944
03:03:22,680 --> 03:03:25,840
Speaker 1: three days prior to being killed. She was leaving her

2945
03:03:25,840 --> 03:03:28,760
Speaker 1: home on the way to work, according to eyewitnesses, and

2946
03:03:28,920 --> 03:03:31,520
Speaker 1: doctors at the hospital said the bullet she was shot

2947
03:03:31,600 --> 03:03:37,280
Speaker 1: with pierced her heart. Um and local and international rights

2948
03:03:37,280 --> 03:03:41,039
Speaker 1: groups have condemned what they call Israel's excessive use of

2949
03:03:41,120 --> 03:03:44,920
Speaker 1: force and their shoot to kill policy against Palestinians, including

2950
03:03:45,640 --> 03:03:50,320
Speaker 1: suspected assailants and the occupied West Bank and got the strip. Um.

2951
03:03:51,120 --> 03:03:55,320
Speaker 1: Senior Israeli politicians, including Prime Minister Bennett, have encouraged the

2952
03:03:55,400 --> 03:03:58,279
Speaker 1: use of legal force and given orders to shoot Palestinians

2953
03:03:58,280 --> 03:04:01,120
Speaker 1: who did not post an eminent threat. These other orders

2954
03:04:01,160 --> 03:04:04,560
Speaker 1: to shoot Palestinians even if they don't pose a eminent threat.

2955
03:04:05,760 --> 03:04:08,080
Speaker 1: The United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human

2956
03:04:08,120 --> 03:04:11,320
Speaker 1: Rights noted that in the reports, Israeli forces quote often

2957
03:04:11,400 --> 03:04:15,120
Speaker 1: use firearms against Palestinians on mere suspicion or as a

2958
03:04:15,120 --> 03:04:23,320
Speaker 1: precautionary measure in violation of international standards. Um. And yeah, surprise, surprise.

2959
03:04:23,400 --> 03:04:26,879
Speaker 1: Her funeral was also attacked by these really occupation, just

2960
03:04:26,959 --> 03:04:32,400
Speaker 1: like Sharnes was. Um. They beat the mourners and uh,

2961
03:04:32,600 --> 03:04:36,680
Speaker 1: nothing nothing changed in the the several days that followed

2962
03:04:36,680 --> 03:04:39,440
Speaker 1: that funeral. It happened again because they knew they could

2963
03:04:39,720 --> 03:04:44,560
Speaker 1: happen again. There was no punishment for the first round. Um.

2964
03:04:44,640 --> 03:04:50,199
Speaker 1: And that's all I got for today. Um, I do,

2965
03:04:51,200 --> 03:04:54,400
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much more to talk about, but

2966
03:04:55,000 --> 03:04:57,800
Speaker 1: just they'll take a lifetime and maybe I'll chip out

2967
03:04:57,840 --> 03:05:00,800
Speaker 1: it away over time. I do want to plug a

2968
03:05:00,959 --> 03:05:04,040
Speaker 1: film that I really love called Gaza Fights for Freedom.

2969
03:05:04,120 --> 03:05:06,880
Speaker 1: It's a twenty nineteen documentary. It's on YouTube for free,

2970
03:05:07,720 --> 03:05:12,680
Speaker 1: and it's by Abby Martin and it's filmed by Caraman

2971
03:05:12,800 --> 03:05:16,039
Speaker 1: on the ground and Gaza, and it really shows the

2972
03:05:16,120 --> 03:05:19,120
Speaker 1: imbalance that takes place, especially in that region. I know

2973
03:05:19,160 --> 03:05:21,240
Speaker 1: we didn't cover Gaza that much in this episode, but

2974
03:05:22,200 --> 03:05:24,959
Speaker 1: just like Shrine's death, that reflects the larger issue and

2975
03:05:25,600 --> 03:05:30,320
Speaker 1: the just blatant genocide and ethic cleansing that's happening. So

2976
03:05:30,360 --> 03:05:33,080
Speaker 1: I would really recommend that if you want to learn more. Again,

2977
03:05:33,240 --> 03:05:36,040
Speaker 1: just like our boys the mini series, it's really hard

2978
03:05:36,080 --> 03:05:41,880
Speaker 1: to watch um, at least for me, UM and another.

2979
03:05:41,959 --> 03:05:44,760
Speaker 1: I mean, the reason I mentioned I wanted to describe

2980
03:05:44,800 --> 03:05:47,280
Speaker 1: the video Shreen's death earlier is because I haven't seen

2981
03:05:47,320 --> 03:05:48,640
Speaker 1: it and I don't want to see it. Like I

2982
03:05:49,959 --> 03:05:52,000
Speaker 1: it really triggers me when I see like a photo

2983
03:05:52,360 --> 03:05:56,200
Speaker 1: of and I mean anybody like I don't want to

2984
03:05:56,240 --> 03:05:59,320
Speaker 1: sensationalize their death. UM, but I do want you guys

2985
03:05:59,360 --> 03:06:03,920
Speaker 1: to know about it and to understand that it's important. UM.

2986
03:06:03,959 --> 03:06:08,440
Speaker 1: That's my shoe. I have. I have seen it, and

2987
03:06:08,720 --> 03:06:10,520
Speaker 1: just as a general rule of someone who's worked in

2988
03:06:10,520 --> 03:06:15,280
Speaker 1: those conditions, she's very obviously not in a situation which

2989
03:06:15,280 --> 03:06:16,879
Speaker 1: it makes sense that she would have gotten on a

2990
03:06:16,879 --> 03:06:20,599
Speaker 1: cross fire between a gunfight like obviously this has been documented,

2991
03:06:20,640 --> 03:06:23,680
Speaker 1: but it was pretty obvious from the beginning that this

2992
03:06:23,760 --> 03:06:25,760
Speaker 1: was not like two sides shooting at each other and

2993
03:06:25,800 --> 03:06:31,520
Speaker 1: someone getting caught up in the middle. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

2994
03:06:31,680 --> 03:06:33,960
Speaker 1: it's depressing. I guess I didn't end this one with

2995
03:06:34,000 --> 03:06:39,039
Speaker 1: any kind of uplifting anything, But I just encourage everyone

2996
03:06:39,400 --> 03:06:43,360
Speaker 1: who's interested or who doesn't know uh and who wants

2997
03:06:43,400 --> 03:06:47,800
Speaker 1: to know more to just get your information from Palestinians.

2998
03:06:48,080 --> 03:06:52,720
Speaker 1: Um spread awareness of social media because Palestinian voices are

2999
03:06:52,800 --> 03:06:57,560
Speaker 1: usually silenced, and it really makes a difference when people

3000
03:06:57,600 --> 03:07:00,160
Speaker 1: speak up, because that's the only way things change, just

3001
03:07:00,200 --> 03:07:02,520
Speaker 1: the only way articles change their headlines. That's the only

3002
03:07:02,520 --> 03:07:08,040
Speaker 1: way anything even pivots in the right direction. But this

3003
03:07:08,080 --> 03:07:13,480
Speaker 1: is the end. Should I say goodbye now? Goodbye? Now? Okay,

3004
03:07:13,680 --> 03:07:17,000
Speaker 1: thank you, but no, I appreciate the listeners of today

3005
03:07:17,040 --> 03:07:20,680
Speaker 1: and yesterday's episodes. It means a lot to me. You know,

3006
03:07:20,640 --> 03:07:25,440
Speaker 1: I'll see you when I see you. Bye bye. Bye,

3007
03:07:25,440 --> 03:07:32,039
Speaker 1: now Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every

3008
03:07:32,040 --> 03:07:34,280
Speaker 1: week from now until the heat death of the universe.

3009
03:07:34,879 --> 03:07:37,240
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3010
03:07:37,440 --> 03:07:40,119
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3011
03:07:40,160 --> 03:07:42,280
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on

3012
03:07:42,320 --> 03:07:44,840
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

3013
03:07:44,920 --> 03:07:47,400
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could

3014
03:07:47,400 --> 03:07:50,400
Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com

3015
03:07:50,440 --> 03:07:52,359
Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.