WEBVTT - Weirdhouse Cinema: Labyrinth 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.120 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:14.840 Hey you welcome to Weird House Cinema. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.959 This is Rob Lamb and this is Joe McCormick. And 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.560 today on Weird House Cinema, we are going to be 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.120 talking about a childhood classic, I think for many people 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.920 roughly our age or between our ages, the nineteen eighty 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:33.919 six musical fantasy film Labyrinth, starring Jennifer Connelly and David Bowie, 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.200 directed by Jim Henson. I was thinking, this is actually 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:42.520 our second David Bowie film, since we did previously cover 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:46.440 Nicholas Rogues. The Man Who Fell to Earth, a very interesting, 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:50.280 very good, but mood withering film about an alien who 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:52.680 comes to our planet on a mission to save his 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.680 own from catastrophic drought, but gets derailed by our culture's 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:02.400 infinite and infinitely absorbing distractions like television, alcohol, and table tennis. 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:04.520 You remember all the ping pong and The Man Who 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:05.080 Fell to Earth. 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:07.600 I had kind of forgotten about the ping pong until 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.760 you mentioned it, but that's a solid point. 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.720 Yeah. So, while it also stars David Bowie, Labyrinth I 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.360 think is about as different a movie from the Man 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.800 Who Fell to Earth as one could possibly imagine. Bowie's 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.800 film career did have a lot of range. But thinking 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:28.080 about this actually raised a kind of humorous question for me. 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.080 Are there any similarities between the two movies? And the 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.520 more I thought about it, I thought, actually, there kind 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:37.600 of are, especially in the overall plot structure and the 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.240 journey of the hero. Both are stories in which the 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.440 hero or heroine is transported to an alien world on 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.280 an originally selfless quest to save their family or a 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.400 family member from a terrible fate, but faces obstacles along 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:57.160 the way, primarily in the form of temptations to go 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:02.160 off the path into narcissistic, self indulgent pursuits. So in 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.080 the case of Labyrinth, the heroine is played by a 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:08.720 young Jennifer Connolly, whose quest is to rescue her baby 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.960 brother from a goblin related predicament of her own making. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:17.240 And Connolly's character is I like the character because she 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.160 is smart and brave, but begins the story as a 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:27.119 very believable teenager, so self pitying and self absorbed, infuriated 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:29.919 by the inconvenience of having to look after her screeching 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.560 baby brother for an evening and wanting simultaneously to be 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.520 free of her family and to achieve adult independence, but 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:40.080 also at the same time to regress into childhood and 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.200 avoid all responsibilities, like you know, hiding in her bedroom 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:47.360 with her dolls and costumes. And thus her challenges in 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.560 the movie reflect these very common and relatable teenage character issues, 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.120 like she's tempted along the way to give into defeatism 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.160 and selfishness in the forms of both self pity and 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.480 self indulgence. In the end, she emerges much more successfully 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.600 than Bowie's character and the Man Who Fell to Earth, though, 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.200 as we were discussing off Mike before recording, the exact 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.520 mechanics of her victory over the goblin King Jarith are 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:14.480 somewhat difficult to schematize. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.160 That's right. This is a movie that I've seen so 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.480 many times over the years as a child, as an adult, 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.600 you know, as a parent, and so forth, And no 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.120 matter what phase of my life I am in, I 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:31.560 never completely get the details on how she defeats Jarreth, 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:36.920 but I never doubt the victory, like it's the emotional 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.200 accuracy of it feels one hundred percent there. This is 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.520 a film that will come back to this, I think 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.920 over and over again, but I think it speaks more 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:48.120 on an emotional level than it does on a logical level, 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.920 and I can't help but assume that that is one 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.960 of the factors playing into the disconnect between the way 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.240 the adult world reacted to this film when it came 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.240 out in eighty six and the way scores and scores 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.320 of children reacted to it over the years as they 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:05.680 grew up with the film. 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.320 Yeah, I think we'll have a lot to say about 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.040 this as we go on, But oh, we haven't yet 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:12.840 gotten to one of the main things you would need 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.520 to know to understand Labyrinth if you've never seen it 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.560 and have no idea of what's going on here, and 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.280 it's a movie full of muppets. This is a Jim 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.680 Hinson production, so the fantasy elements and characters are achieved 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:27.920 through the use of some of the best puppetry ever 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:31.679 committed to film. Labyrinth came out a few years after 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:35.599 Hinson's previous fantasy movie, The Dark Crystal from nineteen eighty two, 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.880 which I would say personally is probably the high watermark 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:44.440 for puppetry driven movies, Like I don't know what could 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.560 really be said to surpass it, And it's interesting to 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.480 compare the two films. We might also discuss that more 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.000 as we go on. But coming back to what you 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:57.120 were saying, Rob, about the way children reacted to Labyrinth 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.440 versus the way a lot of adults did. I also, Yeah, 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.200 I get the impression that for a lot of people 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:07.720 who were kids in the eighties, Labyrinth was just part 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:12.680 of the common texture of childhood, as uncritically accepted and 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:17.760 culturally canonical as Star Wars or Et or the mainline 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:19.440 muppets like Kermit and Miss Piggy. 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.600 Was that your experience, Rob, Yeah, I mean, I don't 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:27.719 remember how exactly Labyrinth was initially introduced into our lives. 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.359 I think maybe we rented it from the video store 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.000 on VHS, but we liked it so much that we 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.039 purchased a VHS copy of Labyrinth. We watched it so 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:40.000 many times that we broke the VHS tape and we 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:44.000 actually had to go take it to be repaired. I 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:46.599 don't even know I repaired. Yeah, we had it repaired. 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.360 I don't know who did that kind of thing. What 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.039 the price point was, I assumed cheaper than buying a 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.880 new VHS tape. So it was repaired and returned to us. 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.880 But after that, the audio and the tape was warped 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.000 from there on out. So part of me still sort 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.359 of pines for a certain like electronic warping sound to 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.919 be present in the film even when it's not. 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.080 What does the fire Gang song sound like? When it's 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:12.960 even more. 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.800 Discombobulated, it sounds weirder and more threatening? Okay, I know, 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:20.760 as if that were possible. How about you, do you 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:22.640 remember how Labyrinth came into your life? Show? 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.280 Well? Actually, I'm this is weird because I feel like 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.640 I should know for sure one way or another about this, 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.520 but I can only say what I think is the case. 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.800 I think I actually never saw this movie in full 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:38.960 when I was a kid, and yet I had full 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:42.320 awareness of it as like a movie that was part 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.640 of the common culture and that everybody liked. And I 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.479 think I really never sat down and saw the whole 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:49.960 thing until I was an adult. 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:52.320 Yeah, there's certainly a lot of movies like that where 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.600 they're just I mean, it's really a film like this 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:57.120 becomes a part of the atmosphere. You can't help but 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:58.680 breathe it in, and you have no idea how it 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.239 originally came into your house, you know, I just seep 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:01.640 through the. 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.720 Walls but I will have some more things to say 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.000 about it when when we get back to I don't know, 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.680 maybe when we talk about the critical reception. I do 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:13.160 remember being surprised by some things about it when I 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:15.680 saw it, either for the first time ever in my 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.160 life or for the first time as an adult, whichever 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.360 that was. You know, when I saw it in my 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:26.000 in my thirties, it wasn't exactly what I expected, And 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.520 maybe we can talk about some reasons for that when 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:32.000 we get into some stuff about the critical reception. Yeah, 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:35.120 but don't misinterpret me. I love Labyrinth. I mean, it's 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.960 just it's a trip. There's not there's not really anything 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.160 like it. The closest I could compare it to, I 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.560 guess is The Dark Crystal. But actually that's a totally 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.400 different kind of story, totally different kind of world and movie. There. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.240 There really just is nothing like Labyrinth I can think of. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.280 Yeah, yeah, I mean it is. It's in many ways, 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.600 as we'll discuss, it's it was the logical next step 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.000 after Dark Crystal, but it and it is as ambitious 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:04.120 a film in some respect in its use of groundbreaking puppetry, 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.520 you know, pushing the boundaries of what puppetry can do 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:10.600 while also looking to puppetry's past and finding things to uh, 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:15.320 you know, to to to utilize and reinvent. But it 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.480 is a very different story. It's a very different like 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.560 entertainment product in its own way. Yeah, So we'll get 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.120 into some of those differences and similarities as we go here. 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:25.760 All right, Well, let's go ahead and hear just a 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.520 little trailer audio for Jim Henson's Labyrinth. 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:37.720 Tri Star Pictures announces the collaboration of three extraordinary talents, 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.840 Jim Henson, creator of The Muppets and Dark Crystal. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:45.480 Where you want what I hay like that? 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:59.360 George Lucas, creator of the Star Wars Saga, and one 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:08.120 of the most innovative forces in modern entertainment, David Bowie. 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.560 Together they will take you into a dazzling world of 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.079 fantasy and adventure. 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.959 There's nothing to be afraid of, a world. 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:21.959 Where anything seems possible and nothing is what it seems. 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:31.600 Everything I've done, I've done for I move the stars 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:48.120 of novels. 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.160 The world of Labyrinth. 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.160 All right, if you want to go watch Labyrinth or 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:00.560 rewatch Labyrinth before proceeding with the rest of this podcast episode, 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.520 well more power to you. This one is widely available 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.120 in all formats and the special this is one of 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.320 those releases where I feel like the special editions just 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.000 keep rolling out. The limited edition steal book from shout 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.720 Factory looks really good. I was just getting some some 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:18.600 like social media ads about this the other day, and 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:20.600 I I feel like it's one of these things where 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:24.200 I don't own labyrinth ons and like a special edition 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.280 physical media release, but I'm always tempted to get one, 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:29.480 and each time they roll out a new one, I'm like, oh, 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:30.640 this is the one, this is the one. 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:31.040 I should get. 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:35.440 That they keep upping the ante. But yeah, there are 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:37.680 a number of been a number of releases, and again 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:39.720 that shout Factory product looks really nice. 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.600 You know. I wonder if to people out in the 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:47.240 disc publishing world, is it especially movies that have nostalgic 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.000 tie ins to people's childhood that are most likely to 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:53.200 get bought up with these like big elaborate special edition 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.800 blu rays and boxes that you know, the special cases 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.840 and the posters and all the accessories that come with them. 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.320 I would have to think that nostalgia is a big 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.600 driver in selling these kind of things. 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.360 Yeah, I would guess so. But then again, I look 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.200 at my own experience and I think the most money 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.320 I've ever paid for a Blu ray was for a 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:17.120 special edition of Fool Cheese Conquest that came with a 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.280 special slipcase. And I can't quite explain why, because this 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.000 is not a movie I watched as a child. I 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:24.959 don't have that kind of deep nostalgia for it. But 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.320 I have a certain depth of nostalgia for the film, 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.560 and for some reason, it's like I had to have it. 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.360 You know, maybe it's like the fomo of a special 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.480 release slipcase and you're just like, somehow I've missed this. 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.880 I must have it. Yes, I will pay extra for 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:38.560 it on eBay. 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:43.680 There is something really perversely enjoyable about getting an elaborate, lavish, 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.800 lovingly produced edition of a movie that is grimy and 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.400 gauzy and is just really concerned with pus. 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.840 Yeah. Yeah, it has a prize place in the drawer 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.760 where I keep the discs. All right, well, let's get 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.240 into the folks involved in the creation of this picture, 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.560 starting at the time, of course, with Jim Henson. This 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:03.840 is the first time we've really talked about Jim Henson 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.960 on the show before, you know, in depth. You know, 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.520 work comes up time and time again, and I'm blanking 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.360 on to what extent we've ever discussed something that the 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:15.760 Creature Shop was involved in. It's possible the Creature Shop 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.080 has come up directly in an episode or two, but 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:20.959 at any rate, Jim Henson is the director, he has 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.920 a story credit. He is also an uncredited Goblin performer. 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.440 There were a lot of Goblin performances in this puppetry wise, 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:33.160 he lived nineteen thirty six through nineteen ninety easily one of, 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.200 if not the most important puppeteers of the twentieth century. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.720 I recently watched the excellent twenty twenty four documentary Jim 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.640 Henson Idea Man. This was directed by Ron Howard, and 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.520 I believe it's currently streaming on Disney in most places. 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:52.600 And this documentary does a really, really great, really entertaining 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:57.040 job of discussing Hinson, largely from the standpoint of his 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.160 ambition and his dreams, also getting the you know, litle 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.280 bit into his personal life, his family life, and of 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.360 course his professional life being like the main focus because 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.800 it's about, you know how all these ideas he had 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.439 ultimately the limited amount of time he had to pull 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.280 them off and yeah, like he was a guy that's 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:18.840 just constantly coming up with concepts that so many things 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.960 that didn't even come to fruition, Like he really had 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:24.640 all these plans for a nightclub at one point. Well yeah, yeah, 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.600 and I'd seen these some illustrations, some concept art that 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.160 he'd put together for this at the Center for Puppetry 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.000 Arts in a museum display years ago. But they get 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:35.560 into this in the documentary as well. 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.640 New York's Hottest Club is muppet essentially. 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.880 Like even one of the things that they drive home 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.120 in that documentary is that even you know, early on, 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.760 he was drawn more to the power of television than 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.040 he was to puppetry itself, though of course puppetry became 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:55.240 his core performance medium. And yeah, he continued to push 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.160 the boundaries of what was possible with puppets, the sorts 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.320 of audiences they could be reached through puppets, sometimes like 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.600 initially like rebelling against you know, a box that he 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.840 helped draw for himself, like going from becoming you know, 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.440 the the creator of Sesame Street in this you know, 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.199 huge property for children, and then breaking out and doing 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.560 something like The Muppet Show and beyond and again, you know, 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:23.119 incorporating diverse traditions of puppetry along the way related performance styles, 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.800 and pushing into new frontiers of things like animatronics, which 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:28.800 we see in this film, and even you know, late 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.080 in his career got a little bit into into CGI 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.640 and looking at what computer generated imagery could do, though 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.800 often through sort of the guise of puppetry, like you know, 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.160 some sort of like computer animated face that is controlled 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.760 by like live action puppeteering. 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.240 Is the owl at the beginning of Labyrinth and the 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:51.800 credit sequence is that CGI? 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.560 I believe it is. Yeah, I believe that's like early 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.240 I would argue largely effective CGI. It maybe doesn't look 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.880 as cool now as it did when I was a kid, 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.560 but it still looks pretty good. It's not you know, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.720 I feel like it mostly it's yeah for eighty six 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:08.520 especially Yeah. 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:08.760 Yeah. 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:09.640 So. 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.520 Of course, Hinson is famous for his Muppet based shows, again, 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:16.120 particularly Sesame Street and all the various series and films 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.200 to spin off of the Muppet Show, but of course 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.880 his creative output also includes the excellent Storyteller series we've 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.600 referenced on the show before, both the first season and 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.880 then the Greek season. I still hold those up as 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.400 excellent nineteen eighty two's Dark Crystal, and of course eighty 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.040 six is Labyrinth. This would prove to be his last 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:38.720 full length feature film directorial effort before his untimely death 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:40.760 in nineteen ninety at the age of fifty three. 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.200 Yeah. So I guess this brings us back to the 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.560 comparison between The Labyrinth and The Dark Crystal. I love 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:48.880 them both, though I think the Dark Crystal is a 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.720 little more impressive to me just because of the format 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.960 of its storytelling and its ambitions in that regard, in 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.880 that The Dark Crystal has no human characters in it. 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.560 You know, the Dark Crystal is not a like a 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.520 fairy tale integrated with our world as a kind of 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.240 you know, bridge fantasy from regular life like Labyrinth is. 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.800 The Dark Crystal is like a mythology that has nothing 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.040 to do with Earth, and there are no humans and 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.640 no Earth history and no Earth technology. It's just this 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:24.040 totally different world and everything in it is pure imagination. 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.800 Yeah, I mean, it's otherworldly, and and in fact that 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.520 the initial cut was maybe a little too otherworldly for 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.080 some test audiences because they had all these constructed languages, 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.840 so the sketchies are speaking a strange tongue and so forth, 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:41.200 and they had to do like subsequent cuts where they 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:46.280 added actual like English language dialogue to the picture. So, 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:51.280 you know, the Dark Crystal was certainly like aiming for 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:57.040 something epic and strange and wonderful and achieve that. And 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.640 so Labyrinth seems to be an attempt to make something 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:01.640 that has the same vision and the same you know, 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.280 like level of detail going into every nook and cranny 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.720 of the picture, but also calibrating all of that more 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:13.040 towards like pure popular entertainment, you know, music, humor, whimsy, 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.560 and build everything around relatable human actors, one a youth 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:19.920 and the other a very popular musician. 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:22.920 Yeah, Labyrinth to me seems like it's taking a lot 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:27.680 of the same creativity and creative energy behind The Dark Crystal, 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:32.600 but lightening the tone a bit and connecting it to 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:36.320 the human world with a human protagonist, and also orienting 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.679 the story a little. I mean, you could say in 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:43.000 both cases that probably the primary marketing was directed towards kids. 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.120 But the Dark Crystal is pretty as the title would 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.240 imply dark and Labyrinth I think is probably you would 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:51.960 argue a little bit more kid friendly. 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.480 Yeah, I mean, you still I certainly know people in 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.760 real life who are like, yeah, I never liked Dark Crystal. 0:17:57.840 --> 0:17:59.679 It was too scary for me. It's too scary for 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.360 me now. And and that will come into play here 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.200 in a second, because when Labyrinth came out in eighty six, 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:11.840 it was famously a commercial and critical failure. It was 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.520 it was one of a certified bomb, you know, and 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.320 one that, apparently, according to that documentary, hit Hintson really hard. 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.760 You know, he ultimately was able to, you know, to 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:24.840 roll with the punches and you know, move on to 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.280 the next thing. But I think, you know, everybody put 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.560 a lot of love into Labyrinth and were really bummed 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.520 out when critics didn't like it and when audiences didn't 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:34.639 come out to see it. But of course, as is 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.920 sometimes the case with films like this, the children did 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:39.520 end up seeing it. They might not have seen it 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:41.840 at the theater, their parents might not have taken them, 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.760 but they ended up renting it or seeing it on television. 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.959 They told each other about it, they watched it and 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.280 rewatched it. They grew up with it, and as such 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.880 it has it has built up this cult following over 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.600 the years, and it has become this much beloved film 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.600 that is, you know, not this not in any way 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.040 tarnish the careers of those involved, but is sometimes like 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.120 one of the most iconic things they ever did. 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:07.760 Yeah, as I was saying earlier, it's one of those 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:12.119 movies where, again to sort of interpret my perception of 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.880 its place and culture, it was a movie where you wouldn't, 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.720 even if you were a child, question whether it was 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.680 good or not, or whether there could be anything wrong 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.320 with it. It's just like it's the canon. It is 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:25.840 the canon of storytelling. 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.920 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and yeah, And like I said, you 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:32.200 grow up with them and sometimes you do reevaluate these things, 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.440 but maybe they do have an advantage because they've been 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.920 with you so long. And if it's a film like Labyrinth, 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.560 I feel like it's, you know, its flaws are not 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:45.639 enough to defeat that fire that was implanted in you 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.600 early on with the film. But again, the grown up 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.560 world of film critics did not feel the same way. 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.159 I was reviewing some of these, and it's interesting. So 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.160 Leonard Malton, a mere four years before he was killed 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.040 by Grimlins and Grimy too, he gave one of the 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:06.800 very few favorable like mainstream reviews for Labyrinth. Ebert gave 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:08.439 one that I think he gave it two out of 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:13.000 two stars total, and you know, like a generally like 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.560 an Ebert review, it's you know, it's not unkind it 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:19.399 it points out things he really likes, but ultimately it 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.080 doesn't see the logic in the picture. And then Gene 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.040 Siskel his review, if you want to dig that one up, 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.639 is one of the most brutal film reviews I've ever seen. 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.639 I'm mad he is mad. Not only does he not 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.600 like Labyrinth, he seems to have hated everything about it 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:36.760 and everyone in it. 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.399 Yeah. Actually, so we were reading this off mic and 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.840 this brought up a kind of funny difference between Ebert 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.120 and Siskel. You know, it's not across the board this way, 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.080 but I feel like more often when Roger Ebert didn't 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.000 like a movie, he had a kind of sense of 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:55.080 humor about it, whereas Gene Siskel was more likely to 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.399 come off as like really offended by the fact that 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.600 a movie was bad like him. 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.160 Yeah, yeah, well that definitely holds true when you look 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:08.160 at Cisco's review of Elabyrinth. Yeah, he called it quite 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:12.480 awful and visually ugly, which I mean, you know, say 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.280 what you will about Jim Henson Pictures and you know, 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:17.280 you don't have to like them. But I mean, generally 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.240 most people acknowledge that there's a lot of you know, 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.040 great visual design that goes into these things. But you know, 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:25.240 I don't know, everyone's entitled to their opinion. 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:31.040 I guess you might have different levels of personal tolerance, 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.800 and this might be a very learned thing. Personal tolerance 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:38.320 for ugly beautiful, like to see the beauty in designs 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.480 that are meant to be ugly but capture ugliness in 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.080 an exquisite way, which a lot of a lot of 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.160 this movie does. It has monsters in it that are 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.439 not supposed to be like, you know, Hoggle is not 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:54.760 supposed to look super attractive, but Hoggle looks wonderful, and 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.960 the goblins are not supposed to look like attractive people. 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:02.359 They look like goblins, but they are beautiful goblins. I 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:05.119 feel like Ciskel is just not approaching the movie with 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.040 a tolerance for that kind of ambition at all. 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.960 Yeah. So again, critics hated it, and people who listened 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.440 to critics, you know, probably decided, well, maybe we'll skip 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:16.480 this one since everyone seems to hate it so much 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:19.879 or dislike it or find it lacking, and I was 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:24.560 reading an article or a chapter rather in the Wider 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.400 Worlds of Jim Henson. It's a book that came out 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.359 years back. There's a part in it by the author 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:34.600 Tom Holst, and it's titled finding your Way through the Labyrinth, 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:37.000 and he points out that some parents are also thought 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:40.080 to have kept their kids away due to negative experiences 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.080 bringing them to see the Dark Crystal. Earlier, folks had 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:45.040 heard oh the Dark Crystal is going to be you know, 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:47.600 from the maker of the Muppets in the Sesame Street, 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:49.639 and it was maybe a little too scary, and so 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:52.280 that might have kept them from going out to see 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:54.400 Labyrinth when it came out, for fear that there would 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:58.399 be a similar experience. Finally, this is another thing that 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:01.080 Holst points out. We also look at Labyrinth in the 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:04.280 way it connects, though to various other themes explored in 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.600 other Hintson projects, including some of his short film works. 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:10.320 That some of those did have buppets and some of 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:15.880 them didn't. But these different themes include a fractured view 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.720 of time, the theme of being trapped a film as 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:25.280 a metatext, and the trappings of superficiality. So those are 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:27.679 all worth keeping in mind as we continue to discuss 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:28.280 the movie here. 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:32.600 Yeah, Rewatching Labyrinth with this knowledge of its reception history 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:37.359 is odd and interesting because you have this contrast, like 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:41.639 the as we've been talking about the Chili reception it 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:45.040 got from critics and people pointing out all of these 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.960 things that are arguably flaws with it, flaws in the storytelling, 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:52.119 flaws in the design, flows in the acting, and so forth. 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:55.520 And at the same time you contrast that with what 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:58.000 I've been saying about I'm pretty sure I'm right about this, 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:01.399 the way that so many kids just totally accepted this 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.760 movie as part of the very fabric of childhood. And 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:08.639 I was trying to think what accounts for that difference. 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:13.800 And I think Labyrinth is a movie where you could 0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:18.440 easily nitpick a lot of things about it if you're 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:22.240 not along for the ride. But if you're along for 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:25.560 the ride, it's just perfect and you don't question anything. 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:28.840 And so the real question is are you along for 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:33.000 this ride or not? And what determines if someone will 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.080 be or will not be along for the ride, Like 0:24:35.119 --> 0:24:37.840 clearly Gene Siskel was, he did not agree to be 0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:40.959 along for the ride. It's almost in this regard. I 0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:43.280 was thinking the inverse of a movie we talked about 0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:47.040 a few weeks ago, Ridley Scott's Legend. Legend is a 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:51.399 movie made of amazing parts, but somehow it is less 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:53.800 than the some of those parts. Something about it just 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:57.760 doesn't quite click as a story overall. Labyrinth, on the 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:00.040 other hand, I think has I mean, of course it 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:02.840 it also has amazing parts, and you know, great character 0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:05.639 designs and puppetry and all that, but it has a 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:09.960 lot of specific stuff you could criticize if you were 0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:13.200 so inclined, But if you just take the movie as 0:25:13.240 --> 0:25:16.560 an indivisible whole, the way you a lot of times 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:20.359 kids take movies as just a totally absorbing experience that 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:23.800 you don't really think about critically. It would never even 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:25.800 occur to you that any part of it could be 0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:28.840 less than perfect. It's just the ride you're on, and 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:29.920 it's it's amazing. 0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:32.560 I was thinking about something along these lines when I 0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:35.800 was swimming lapse this morning that like, for me, a 0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:39.240 movie is often like a Frankenstein's Monster. You know, yeah, 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:42.479 you know, sometimes it's made from the most beautiful pieces 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:45.960 imaginable and that you can't even see the stitch work 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:51.760 and then other times it's ghastly. The stitches are raw 0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:55.080 and apparent, you know, and there are other like design problems. 0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:58.920 But at the end of the experiment, if the creature 0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:03.040 can rise up and it has something like, you know, 0:26:03.520 --> 0:26:06.880 cohesive life to it, then like then you buy it. 0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:08.720 Like that, that's the thing. It has to be able 0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:12.119 to walk out of the laboratory. Yeah, and if it does, 0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:15.120 then yeah, the movie like works at least on some 0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:17.520 sort of level that I can get behind. And it's 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:19.800 it's interesting because you have sometimes you do have a 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:22.960 beautiful monster that's there on the slab, But if the 0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:26.600 spark doesn't happen, if it doesn't rise up, then you know, 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:27.239 what can you do? 0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:30.480 Yeah, but Labyrinth is getting up and walking, It's it's 0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:33.240 running around, it's dancing, it's taking its head off and 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:34.920 tossing it to the monster next door. 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:47.600 Yep, absolutely, all right, let's see other folks involved here. 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:51.119 A story credit goes to Dennis Lee born nineteen thirty nine. 0:26:51.400 --> 0:26:53.720 He'd previously worked as a composer on Fraggle Rock and 0:26:53.760 --> 0:26:55.720 We Could would continue to work in the music department 0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:59.199 and as a composer on subsequent Hints and projects. He 0:26:59.320 --> 0:27:02.359 is also an author and poet for children. Some of 0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:05.160 his poems were adapted into the nineteen ninety two TV 0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:08.480 movie Alligator Pie. And then, of course we have a 0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:11.800 screenplay credit to Terry Jones, who have nineteen forty two 0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:16.359 through twenty twenty the legendary Monty Python, writer, director, performer, 0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:20.919 and medieval historian. Jones worked on an early draft of 0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:24.400 the screenplay, and he retains the credit here, though I'm 0:27:24.440 --> 0:27:27.520 to understand only some of his original ideas remain. But 0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:29.840 I've always felt that you still get a very strong 0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:32.320 Pythhonian vibe off of the film. 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:36.399 Yes, I couldn't tell you exactly what those elements are 0:27:36.560 --> 0:27:38.439 off the top of my head, but I can feel 0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:41.920 the ghost of Monty Python in this beast. 0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:45.000 I feel like the specific things that feel like Terry Jones. 0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:46.600 And I could be wrong on this, you know, this 0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:48.960 is often the case the most authentic thing and a 0:27:49.080 --> 0:27:51.520 work is actually the most fake and so forth. But 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:54.520 I always get a strong Terry Jones vibe from the 0:27:54.520 --> 0:28:00.119 part where where Hoggle is spraying the fairies because we 0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:03.040 find out it's because fairies bite. Yes, that feels very 0:28:03.119 --> 0:28:07.960 Terry Jones. And then the logic puzzle of the door 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:11.080 Guardians that we hear we encounter later on. That also 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:13.520 feels very Terry Jones, and I again could be wrong 0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:14.600 in both of those cases. 0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:16.760 No, I agree with you there So. 0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:20.680 Jones apparently worked off a novella by Dennis Lee, as 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:23.160 well as the drawings of artists Brian Froud who will 0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:25.560 come back to But the shooting script apparently had a 0:28:25.640 --> 0:28:27.879 number of different fingerprints on it. You had like Jim Henson, 0:28:27.960 --> 0:28:32.199 of course, producer George Lucas Fraggle, writer Laura Phillips, and 0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:35.959 also writer Elaine May. Anyway, Terry Jones is best known 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:38.720 for his work with Money Python. He co directed Holy 0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:41.240 Grail in seventy five, Monty Python and The Holy Grail, 0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:44.200 and directed both Life of Brian and seventy nine and 0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:46.520 The Meaning of Life in eighty three, followed by various 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:49.400 works including nineteen eighty nine's Eric the Viking. He wrote 0:28:49.480 --> 0:28:54.080 numerous fiction and nonfiction books, including nineteen eighty's Chaucer's Knight, 0:28:54.600 --> 0:28:58.680 The Portrait of a Medieval Mercenary. All right, of course, 0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:00.880 as we've been saying, this is a David Bowie film. 0:29:01.000 --> 0:29:04.160 David Bowie, who lived nineteen forty seven through twenty sixteen 0:29:04.240 --> 0:29:08.200 plays Jareth the Goblin King Again. We previously talked about 0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:09.920 David Bowie in our episode on The Man Who Fell 0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:13.320 to Earth, and here we return once more to what 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:16.240 would become one of his most iconic film roles, and 0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:19.560 rather than revisit everything we said before, I thought we 0:29:19.640 --> 0:29:23.440 might instead just sort of position Labyrinth within his filmography 0:29:23.680 --> 0:29:26.920 and his discography, So in the case of the latter, 0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:30.680 it falls between his nineteen eighty four album Tonight and 0:29:30.800 --> 0:29:33.840 nineteen eighty seven's Never Let Me Down Now. 0:29:34.120 --> 0:29:36.520 I love David Bowie, but I don't know either of 0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:38.640 these albums. I don't think I've ever listened to them. 0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:41.440 I had never listened to them before. I had listened 0:29:41.440 --> 0:29:43.880 to them both at least a couple of times through 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:49.080 each bill while researching and doing notes for this episode, because, 0:29:49.160 --> 0:29:52.320 like the former was long considered and I think maybe 0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:54.479 it is still considered one of his lesser albums and 0:29:54.640 --> 0:29:58.000 was poorly received, though it was apparently re released with 0:29:58.080 --> 0:30:02.080 new instrumentation and the deletion of a track titled Too Dizzy. 0:30:03.080 --> 0:30:05.200 But again, I didn't listen to the original version of 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:07.800 the album. All I have is this, I believe the 0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:10.400 new version that's on the streaming platforms to listen to, 0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:14.760 and you know, I can't compare, but you know, I 0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:18.960 didn't hate it. The reggae elements are interesting. The title 0:30:19.040 --> 0:30:22.440 track is a duet with Tina Turner, and he collaborated 0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:24.320 with Iggy Pop on some of the tracks as well. 0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:28.240 And then Never Let Me Down was an attempt apparently 0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:31.040 to sort of course correct, but was also poorly received. 0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:35.720 Even though you have a track. There's one track, Shining Star, 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:38.440 which features a rap by Mickey Rourke. You I would 0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:41.280 think that would be successful, but I don't know. But again, 0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:43.200 I listened to this all the way through and I 0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:46.240 didn't hate anything. I really liked the track Bang Bang, 0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:50.680 which is an Iggy Pop cover. Oh and then Time 0:30:50.720 --> 0:30:53.240 Will Crawl is also one that I thought was pretty good. 0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.280 But Bowie himself would end up distancing himself from both 0:30:56.280 --> 0:30:58.520 of these albums later on, so you could sort of 0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:01.840 see this as like, from his standpoint, you know, this 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:04.600 was kind of like a low point in his creative output. 0:31:05.120 --> 0:31:08.960 Now on the film front, this one occurs after John 0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:12.480 Landis's nineteen eighty five thriller Into the Night and Julian 0:31:12.560 --> 0:31:15.520 Temple's Absolute Beginners. The same year, and he'd follow it 0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:18.120 up with nineteen eighty nine's The Last Temptation of Christ. 0:31:18.640 --> 0:31:20.960 So it's interesting that while the mid eighties are not 0:31:21.040 --> 0:31:24.240 considered the high point of his musical output, in Labyrinth, 0:31:24.240 --> 0:31:27.160 at least he busts out one of what would become 0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:32.200 his most iconic roles ever, and also a soundtrack album's 0:31:32.200 --> 0:31:34.560 worth a material I think, with five tracks in total 0:31:35.200 --> 0:31:37.240 that I think have stood the test of time, like 0:31:37.280 --> 0:31:41.480 these are beloved songs today, even though at the time, 0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:44.440 again the movie was not a critical or financial success, 0:31:45.000 --> 0:31:47.880 and it's I don't think he ever performed a single 0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:50.160 one of these songs live, you know. I think he, 0:31:50.680 --> 0:31:52.400 like a lot of people, just kind of like rolled 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:55.520 with the punches and just moved on from Labyrinth, even 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:58.960 though it would go on to generate this kind of 0:31:59.440 --> 0:32:01.160 love and this kind of an audience. 0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:05.400 I think Bowie's presence in this movie is very interesting 0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:09.720 to analyze. On one hand, he is, you know, he's 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:13.120 David Bowie, so he's captivating whenever he's on screen. On 0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:16.400 the other hand, he seems a little checked out. Did 0:32:16.440 --> 0:32:19.680 you feel the same way, Like it seems like he's 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:23.920 his engagement with the material and in his scenes is 0:32:23.960 --> 0:32:28.160 often it seems quite muted and like he's he's a 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:29.160 little bit hazy. 0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:32.000 Yeah, I mean, this is one of those things where 0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:33.720 and we kind of got into this a little bit 0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:36.040 with in the episode of The Man Who Fell to Earth, 0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:41.840 Like these tendencies might also ultimately benefit the character, because 0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:45.080 what is Jareth Jareth is he is a tyrant. He 0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:49.560 is like a manchild who has apparently grown perhaps from 0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:54.040 infancy into this position of great power without any checks 0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:57.000 and balances in place. And so yeah, maybe he does 0:32:57.080 --> 0:32:59.120 kind of check out at times because he can. He 0:32:59.120 --> 0:33:02.320 can do so, he's he's a little bit aloof you know, 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:08.200 he's vain, but he's also vulnerable. He's charismatic and can 0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:10.719 also be quite cruel. Like there are a number of 0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:12.760 sort of paradoxes with this guy. 0:33:13.720 --> 0:33:16.920 Yeah, he's villainous, he can be cruel, but he's also 0:33:17.000 --> 0:33:20.280 a little bit dreamy at a i don't know, a 0:33:20.320 --> 0:33:22.480 slightly reduced state of consciousness. 0:33:22.760 --> 0:33:27.720 Yeah, yeah, I mean, ultimately he's of the fairy folk 0:33:27.840 --> 0:33:30.840 in his own way. Now, one thing that I was 0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:33.080 thinking about is that the character of Jared is never 0:33:33.120 --> 0:33:36.160 fully explained here, not in the final cut of the film, 0:33:36.400 --> 0:33:39.080 you know, And I've read that like Hinson and Lucas 0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:41.000 kind of like went back and forth on the final edit, 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:44.480 where Hinson would have more dialogue and Lucas would cut 0:33:44.520 --> 0:33:46.479 dialogue and then they'd kind of like find the balance. 0:33:46.520 --> 0:33:48.800 So maybe an earlier cut it went into this, but 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:52.080 you don't really know like what he is or why 0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:54.360 he's there, Like he's the King of the Goblins, but 0:33:54.400 --> 0:34:01.200 he's obviously or presumably not a Goblin himself. And apparently 0:34:01.200 --> 0:34:03.160 at some time, at some points in pre production, they 0:34:03.200 --> 0:34:07.040 intended for Jareth to be a more darkly satanic, more 0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:10.200 in line with what Legend does with darkness, and knowing 0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:12.920 what Legend was going to do with that character, they 0:34:13.000 --> 0:34:16.439 kind of went in a different direction. But I've read 0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:18.920 that in an earlier draft of the script it was 0:34:18.960 --> 0:34:22.040 revealed that Jareth was once a mortal who solved the Labyrinth. 0:34:22.640 --> 0:34:27.920 And then I also have a Labyrinth bestiari by St. Binde, 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:32.440 and she writes that Jareth himself was a changeling, so 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.640 he was brought into the Goblin realm as an infant 0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:39.000 to serve as the heir to the previous Goblin ruler. 0:34:39.400 --> 0:34:42.759 I guess it's because goblins need a ruler, and none 0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:44.759 of them want to do it themselves, Like can't we 0:34:44.800 --> 0:34:47.360 steal a baby to do this? Can't we train a 0:34:47.360 --> 0:34:49.799 baby to do this? And the answer is yes, that's 0:34:49.880 --> 0:34:51.120 how they live their lives. 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:54.080 I have a question, which is is it fun to 0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:57.520 be the Goblin King? I see the goblins having fun, 0:34:57.600 --> 0:35:01.319 They're you know, horsing around the getting into all kinds 0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:04.680 of mischief, But David Bowie seems to be just kind 0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:08.600 of languidly presiding over all the mischief. Is he having 0:35:08.640 --> 0:35:10.040 fun being Goblin King? 0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:12.919 I think he gets bored and I think he gets 0:35:13.920 --> 0:35:15.759 I think there's a lot of anxiety there. You know, 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:22.000 we see like his boredom often turns into cruelty. And yeah, 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:26.360 he is also deeply invested in the theft of this baby, 0:35:26.440 --> 0:35:30.120 in the acquisition of Sarah. I think because he feels 0:35:30.160 --> 0:35:33.920 like like there's incompleteness in his life and in the 0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:37.279 stability of his reign, Like he needs fresh blood, he 0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:40.480 needs an air, He needs someone who loves him as 0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:43.040 opposed to just the goblins, who certainly serve him. But 0:35:43.480 --> 0:35:45.960 I think love would be a strong word. And that's 0:35:46.000 --> 0:35:48.360 where Sarah comes in. Sarah is, of course, played by 0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:52.760 Jennifer Connelly born nineteen seventy Academy Award winning actress whose 0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:55.680 credits as a child actress date back to a nineteen 0:35:55.719 --> 0:35:59.520 eighty two episode of Rhaldahl's anthology series Tales of the Unexpected. 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:01.920 It's one. I don't think I've seen this one, but 0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:06.319 it's titled Stranger in Town. It stars Derek Jacoby, and 0:36:06.560 --> 0:36:08.480 I included it's still from it. Here you can see 0:36:08.520 --> 0:36:12.320 a very young Jennifer Connolly standing there next to a 0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:15.600 Derek Jacoby in a ridiculous, I don't know, some sort 0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:18.680 of a jester or magician costume. Yeah, a cross between 0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:21.920 the two, okay. She also pops up in the music 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:25.120 video for Duran Durand's Union of the Snake from nineteen 0:36:25.160 --> 0:36:26.880 eighty three. I think she's supposed to be like a 0:36:26.920 --> 0:36:30.960 cult member or something cool. And she followed this up 0:36:30.960 --> 0:36:34.200 with a small role in Sergio Leone's Once Upon a 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:36.839 Time in America that's an eighty four l and then 0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:41.880 Dario Argento's Phenomena in nineteen eighty five opposite Donald pleasants Joe. 0:36:41.920 --> 0:36:44.200 I still haven't seen this one, so you'll have to summarize. 0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:48.000 It's impossible to summarize the plot of Phenomena. It involves. 0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:52.319 It involves like, I think, a super intelligent chimpanze and 0:36:52.560 --> 0:36:57.279 swarms of insects that are controlled by a psychic and 0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:01.480 I don't know, because it's it's Jallo film, so he 0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:04.400 has like murders at a Swiss boarding school, of course, 0:37:05.040 --> 0:37:07.680 and I don't know. I can't describe it all. But 0:37:07.719 --> 0:37:12.840 it does involve Donald pleasance and a chimpanzee and insects 0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:16.520 and murder mysteries, and Jennifer Connolly is the main character. 0:37:16.560 --> 0:37:20.080 All right. So these are essentially the credits that led 0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:23.560 into her playing Sarah in Labyrinth at the age of fourteen, 0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:26.359 at least in the early stages of the production, and 0:37:26.480 --> 0:37:28.960 her subsequent credits would include the likes of nineteen ninety 0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:32.520 one's The Rocketeer, ninety eight's Dark City, two thousands, Requiem 0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:34.720 for a Dream two thousand and one, is a Beautiful 0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:37.600 Mind two thousand and threes, Hulk, twenty fourteen's Noah, and 0:37:37.640 --> 0:37:39.240 the TV series Snow Piercer. 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:41.960 I think she's great in all those later movies, By 0:37:42.000 --> 0:37:44.520 the way, some of the ones I remember really standing 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:47.120 out to me were like Dark City, and all that. 0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:50.440 But you know, I remember liking her even in movies 0:37:50.480 --> 0:37:53.279 that I liked less overall, Like I remember thinking A 0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:55.919 Beautiful Mind is just kind of some some oscar bait. 0:37:56.719 --> 0:37:58.759 But you know, Jennifer Connolly is always great. 0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:02.400 Yeah, yeah, I really enjoy on snow Piercer Now. Sarah's 0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:04.440 parents are only briefly in the film, but as the 0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:08.240 only other two adult humans present, they deserve mention. Shelley 0:38:08.280 --> 0:38:11.800 Thompson born nineteen fifty nine plays Sarah's stepmother, a Canadian 0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:14.560 actor and director whose credits also include eighty five episodes 0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:15.879 of Trailer Park Boys. 0:38:15.800 --> 0:38:18.000 Really Yeah Wow. 0:38:18.080 --> 0:38:20.759 And then Sarah's father is played by Christopher Malcolm who 0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:24.120 lived nineteen forty six through twenty fourteen. A Scottish born 0:38:24.160 --> 0:38:27.120 actor of stage and screen who actually originated the role 0:38:27.160 --> 0:38:29.600 of Brad in the stage musical The Rocky Horror Show, 0:38:29.640 --> 0:38:33.520 which become The Rocky Horror Picture Show, and he appears 0:38:33.520 --> 0:38:36.920 in Richard O'Brien's nineteen eighty one follow up to Rocky Horror, 0:38:36.960 --> 0:38:40.640 Shock Treatment, and he also had small roles in nineteen 0:38:40.640 --> 0:38:43.920 eighties Superman two and The Empire Strikes Back, and he 0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:48.200 has a role in Highlander, a role that I think 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:51.919 I always forget that this features into the plot, even 0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:54.640 the slightest. But there's like a vigilante character running the 0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:59.319 streets in Highlander, and Christopher Malcolm plays that digilante. I 0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:02.880 think he's killed by the Kurgan. It's a very forgettable 0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:05.080 part of the film. Yeah, this one is one that 0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:08.000 felt like an insert from another dimension, Like really that 0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:09.960 was part of this film that I've seen multiple times. 0:39:10.000 --> 0:39:13.480 But I guess so if you say Internet okay, And 0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:16.360 of course there's a long list of Muppet performers and 0:39:16.480 --> 0:39:20.400 voice actors and other creatives. They include the likes of 0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:26.160 Warwick Davis, Kenny Baker, Kevin Klash, Stephen Whitmeyer, Frank Oz, 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:30.759 Karen Prell, Dave Goles, Jim Hinson himself, of course, and 0:39:30.800 --> 0:39:34.720 his son Brian Hinson born nineteen sixty three, who voices Hoggle, 0:39:35.640 --> 0:39:40.399 who of course is Sarah's. The word friend is thrown 0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:42.480 around a lot, and I guess we'd get there eventually, 0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:45.960 but mostly he just betrays her over and over again. 0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:50.640 But yes, Brian Hinson provides the voice there, but he. 0:39:50.440 --> 0:39:53.000 Helps her too, and yeah, it's a you know, your 0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:54.600 friendship is something you grow into. 0:39:55.480 --> 0:39:57.640 Yeah, he's I just love the parts where he's like, 0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:01.680 He's like, she's my friend, I won't betray her. And 0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:05.080 then Jared is like, Holdtle, I need you to poison her, 0:40:05.080 --> 0:40:09.280 and he's like, all right, I'll do it. So anyway, 0:40:09.280 --> 0:40:11.799 we'll come back to some of these individuals as we 0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:15.440 proceed here, but I will point out that among the 0:40:15.480 --> 0:40:19.000 voice actors, Michael Horden, who lived in nineteen eleven through 0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:22.359 nineteen ninety five, provides the voice of the wise Man, 0:40:22.880 --> 0:40:25.640 the one with the bird on his hat. He's also 0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:28.080 known for his performance as the voice of Frith, the 0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:31.080 sun god in nineteen seventy eight's Watershipped Down, and his 0:40:31.120 --> 0:40:34.399 other credits include sixty three's Cleopatra, sixty Eights Where Eagles Dare, 0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:37.880 seventy threes Theater of Blood, seventy five's Barry Lindon. In 0:40:37.960 --> 0:40:39.600 nineteen eighty two is Gandhi. 0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:43.920 Theater of bloods eventsent Price movie, Yeah, with almost the 0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:48.640 same plot as Doctor Fibes, except with a more overtly 0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:52.480 comedic Hammi theater orientation Shakespearean theater. 0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:57.719 All right, we mentioned Brian Froud earlier conceptual designer and 0:40:57.800 --> 0:41:02.040 costume designer born nineteen forty seven English fantasy illustrator who 0:41:02.040 --> 0:41:03.920 had worked with Alan Lee on the nineteen seventy eight 0:41:03.920 --> 0:41:07.800 book Fairies. His work often calls back to nineteenth century 0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:12.480 and early twentieth century fantasy illustration, particularly like fairytale inspiration. 0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:15.200 And I've heard from friends who have seen him speak 0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:17.399 in the past that he's something of like a true 0:41:17.440 --> 0:41:20.200 believer in fairy folk like he doesn't just draw the fairies, 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:23.839 he knows that they are real. He of course served 0:41:23.880 --> 0:41:26.680 as a conceptual as the conceptual designer on The Dark 0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:30.200 Crystal previously, he also later worked on The Storyteller. His 0:41:30.280 --> 0:41:33.120 other conceptual artist credits include two thousand and three's Peter 0:41:33.200 --> 0:41:36.920 Penn in twenty sixteen's Pete's Dragon Interesting as well. He 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:40.480 met his wife, Wendy on the set of The Dark Crystal. 0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:42.759 She worked in the creature workshop on that film and 0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:46.279 also on this film as well, and they had a son, 0:41:46.400 --> 0:41:50.680 Toby famously born eighty four, who of course plays baby Toby, 0:41:51.280 --> 0:41:56.440 Sarah's brother in this picture. So real life. Toby has 0:41:56.440 --> 0:41:59.160 gone onto work in special effects and animation on such 0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:01.640 films as two thousand and fourteen's The Box Trolls and 0:42:01.719 --> 0:42:04.600 the twenty nineteen series The Dark Crystal, The Age of Resistance. 0:42:05.040 --> 0:42:08.120 Oh nice, but yeah, you actually do get to see 0:42:08.160 --> 0:42:10.960 a real baby crying in this movie though. I was 0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:14.840 watching close when the Goblin King Jarrett starts like throwing 0:42:14.920 --> 0:42:17.480 him really high up in the air. That is a doll. 0:42:17.640 --> 0:42:18.880 That's not the real baby. 0:42:19.120 --> 0:42:20.880 That's good. I mean his parents were on set. They 0:42:20.880 --> 0:42:23.960 weren't going to allow that to happen. Okay. Alex Thompson 0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:26.480 was cinematographer on this. I only mentioned it because we 0:42:26.520 --> 0:42:30.040 brought We mentioned him briefly in Legend, same cinematographer as Legend, 0:42:30.160 --> 0:42:35.400 so that's that's interesting. And then you know, music is 0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:38.280 a big part of this film. Trevor Jones did the score. 0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:41.920 Born nineteen forty nine, South African composer with some very 0:42:41.960 --> 0:42:44.440 impressive credentials going back to the late seventies. The other 0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:48.320 scores include ex Caliber from eighty one, eighty two's The Cinder, 0:42:48.719 --> 0:42:52.000 The Dark Crystal, eighty five's Runaway Train, eighty seven's Angel Heart, 0:42:52.040 --> 0:42:55.680 eighty eights, Mississippi Burning, ninety two is Free Jack, as 0:42:55.719 --> 0:42:58.879 well as the Last of the Mohicans Dark City, and 0:42:59.000 --> 0:43:01.480 two thousand and one is from Hell and He's Still 0:43:01.560 --> 0:43:02.200 still active. 0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:05.000 I wonder if he's still getting residuals on free Jack. 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:09.799 Well, one would hope. Now I'm not current enough on 0:43:09.960 --> 0:43:12.040 all of his scores, or even most of his scores. 0:43:12.760 --> 0:43:15.480 I've never seen The Cinder, but it's it's on my list. 0:43:15.880 --> 0:43:17.640 But I think his score for The Dark Crystal is 0:43:17.719 --> 0:43:21.000 really really good, and I love the glistening electronic splendor 0:43:21.080 --> 0:43:23.960 of his work in Labyrinth here fused, of course, with 0:43:24.000 --> 0:43:28.200 the musical stylings of David Bowie. And again, yes, David 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:31.239 Bowie's music is key here as well. It is a 0:43:31.280 --> 0:43:35.120 full fledged musical featuring five original tracks from David Bowie. 0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:36.759 We'll come back to these as we go, but they 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:41.359 are Underground, Magic Dance, Chili Down, as the World Falls Down, 0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:42.360 and within You. 0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:46.280 I say, possibly the opening track Underground is the most 0:43:46.280 --> 0:43:49.719 memorable for me, like as a good song. But what's 0:43:49.760 --> 0:43:52.600 the most memorable just as an experience. I think it 0:43:52.719 --> 0:43:56.560 might be Chili Down? Which is that? I don't know, 0:43:56.680 --> 0:44:00.600 is this song terrifying, horrible, wonderful? What is going on? 0:44:01.000 --> 0:44:03.520 There's a lot to process with Chili Down. I think 0:44:04.160 --> 0:44:07.359 I think all of us who began watching Labyrinth as 0:44:07.360 --> 0:44:09.520 a child are still trying to figure out how we 0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:15.279 feel about Chili Down, and of course the sights and 0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:18.600 traumas that accompany it. Like if you went into this 0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:23.840 film having found the Dark Crystal uncomfortable, then the Chili 0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:28.040 Down sequence is basically like a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, 0:44:28.640 --> 0:44:31.040 but luckily the rest of Labyrinth doesn't have quite the 0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:31.600 same flavor. 0:44:31.880 --> 0:44:35.279 Yeah. But it is that track Underground that plays with 0:44:35.320 --> 0:44:37.839 the opening credits, with the CGI owl, because it's got 0:44:37.840 --> 0:44:40.480 these lines that are uh, these are quite memorable. It 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:43.680 says it's only for forever. It's not long at all. 0:44:44.400 --> 0:44:48.040 Yeah, Yeah, which fits nicely into this treatment of time 0:44:48.120 --> 0:44:51.960 in this picture. But yeah, I love the score when 0:44:51.960 --> 0:44:55.080 it hits us, the score that transitions into Bowie's Underground, 0:44:55.719 --> 0:44:58.960 a track that's going to play again in the closing credits. Yeah, lyrically, 0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:00.920 I think it's a It's a song that really captures 0:45:00.960 --> 0:45:05.319 both Sarah's emotional state and the temptations of the Goblin King. 0:45:05.400 --> 0:45:08.480 You know, it just feels emotionally on point as we 0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:11.520 enter in at first, not necessarily not really into the 0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:14.640 world of the Labyrinths just yet, but into the real world, 0:45:14.719 --> 0:45:18.759 into the mundane world that Sarah finds herself trapped in 0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:20.839 like this is a film that's ultimately about her being 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:23.400 trapped in a fantasy world, but in the beginning she 0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:34.120 is trapped in her mundane life. 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:38.120 So yeah, the action begins in a beautiful outdoor location. 0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:42.160 Actually the place that's almost shockingly green. It's this park 0:45:42.280 --> 0:45:46.440 with a small river running through it, stone bridges, lush grass, 0:45:46.440 --> 0:45:50.000 and these dark, shadowy trees. I am pretty sure this 0:45:50.280 --> 0:45:53.560 was shot at a place called west Wycombe Park in 0:45:53.600 --> 0:45:57.040 the UK. I looked it up to do some comparison. 0:45:57.719 --> 0:46:00.319 But in the foreground of this shot we get the 0:46:00.480 --> 0:46:03.319 animated owl from the credits, which has become a live 0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:07.000 action owl, which settles on a granite obelisk. And then 0:46:07.040 --> 0:46:10.280 in the background, our heroine, Sarah played by Jennifer Connelly 0:46:10.320 --> 0:46:12.799 comes running into the scene over one of these low 0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:17.400 stone bridges, and when we first meet her, she's dressed 0:46:17.480 --> 0:46:20.800 in a costume, a sort of a Renaissance era gown 0:46:20.920 --> 0:46:23.440 with a garland in her hair. And I think this 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:25.239 is meant to be a kind of fake out, like 0:46:25.280 --> 0:46:28.000 we might assume that the movie takes place in another 0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:31.160 time period, but no, it turns out she is I 0:46:31.800 --> 0:46:34.879 think rob Let me know if you disagree. I think 0:46:34.960 --> 0:46:38.640 she's supposed to be rehearsing for a play, and she's 0:46:38.680 --> 0:46:42.879 apparently in costume for that, but either way, she's practicing 0:46:42.960 --> 0:46:45.440 some kind of lines. She's trying to memorize something from 0:46:45.480 --> 0:46:49.200 a book, and as she runs and dances through the park, 0:46:49.360 --> 0:46:51.600 she says her lines, and the lines go like this. 0:46:51.719 --> 0:46:55.720 They are important because they recur throughout the film. She says, 0:46:55.960 --> 0:47:00.000 give me the child through dangers untold and hardship's unnumber. 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:03.120 I have fought my way here to the castle beyond 0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:05.600 the Goblin City to take back the child that you 0:47:05.680 --> 0:47:08.760 have stolen for my will is as strong as yours, 0:47:08.880 --> 0:47:12.760 and my kingdom is as great. And then she starts 0:47:12.800 --> 0:47:15.759 to stumble. She can't remember the next line, and she 0:47:18.120 --> 0:47:20.520 struggles for a bit and then eventually gets the book 0:47:20.560 --> 0:47:23.400 out of her pocket and looks at it and remembers 0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:26.200 the next line is you have no power over me. 0:47:26.920 --> 0:47:30.520 After she gets the line, thundercracks, a rainstorm is beginning, 0:47:30.960 --> 0:47:34.480 and a nearby clock tower strikes at seven o'clock and 0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:38.600 Sarah realizes, oh, she is late for something. So we 0:47:38.640 --> 0:47:41.160 get to see her run back through the park through 0:47:41.200 --> 0:47:45.960 a neighborhood through sort of downtown area of a small 0:47:46.000 --> 0:47:48.759 town in the rain to get back home, and her 0:47:48.800 --> 0:47:51.680 adorable shaggy dog Merlin is with her. By the way. 0:47:51.719 --> 0:47:54.239 He's one of these mop like dog breeds, sort of 0:47:54.280 --> 0:47:56.680 more fur than body. I don't know what breed that is, 0:47:56.680 --> 0:48:01.080 but I love Merlin. Question is Merlin the same dog 0:48:01.239 --> 0:48:04.600 as Ambrosious, the dog of Sir Didymus later in the story, 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:06.000 or is that a different dog? 0:48:06.200 --> 0:48:08.160 Oh? You know, I'm not sure if we're I mean, 0:48:08.239 --> 0:48:13.600 in a sense, definitely, but in terms of dog actors maybe. 0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:17.640 Okay, So I know it's not part of the main 0:48:17.719 --> 0:48:20.240 fantasy setting, which is the real draw of the film. 0:48:20.280 --> 0:48:23.640 But for some reason, I also really love the real 0:48:23.719 --> 0:48:26.360 world locations at the beginning of the movie, the park, 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:30.479 the town, and the storefronts, the rainy neighborhood. I think 0:48:30.520 --> 0:48:34.040 they look wonderful and they're this interesting mix of dreary 0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:34.840 but lovely. 0:48:35.840 --> 0:48:37.840 Yeah, and it it really works because the more we 0:48:38.280 --> 0:48:41.200 see of Sarah's real life, we realize that, yeah, it's 0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:47.160 like she's she's not to discount her displeasure or her emotions, 0:48:47.840 --> 0:48:49.680 you know, because of course these are gonna be going 0:48:49.760 --> 0:48:51.960 to be very subjective and all, but like you know, 0:48:52.040 --> 0:48:55.080 she is what she is in what to all appearances 0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:57.399 would look like a very comfortable house and a very 0:48:57.440 --> 0:49:01.759 comfortable life, but that is not how she feels. She 0:49:01.800 --> 0:49:05.680 feels very set upon. She feels that she is trapped 0:49:05.680 --> 0:49:07.520 here and deserally wants escape. 0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:11.279 Yes, so, and when we see that conflict immediately when 0:49:11.320 --> 0:49:14.400 Sarah gets home, she's confronted on the porch by her stepmother. 0:49:15.200 --> 0:49:17.880 Sarah is late. She was supposed to be home to 0:49:17.960 --> 0:49:21.360 babysit her little brother Toby so her father and stepmother 0:49:21.400 --> 0:49:25.440 could go out for the evening, and there are sort 0:49:25.480 --> 0:49:29.680 of multiple levels of conflict. Sarah is very frustrated and 0:49:29.760 --> 0:49:33.400 put upon. She resents being asked to babysit when she 0:49:33.520 --> 0:49:38.279 should be outliving her own life. But then her stepmother says, basically, well, 0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:40.680 if you had plans, you could have told me I'd 0:49:40.719 --> 0:49:42.239 like for you to go out and have dates in 0:49:42.280 --> 0:49:46.680 a social life. And it's almost like the fact that 0:49:46.800 --> 0:49:51.399 her stepmother is not being more unreasonable further enrages Sarah, 0:49:51.440 --> 0:49:54.759 and she runs upstairs, yelling, pouting that apparently she can't 0:49:54.760 --> 0:49:59.680 do anything right. And I like this relatively complex depiction 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:04.160 of teen angst because it feels real to me, like 0:50:04.239 --> 0:50:07.239 the conflict is not one dimensional or about just a 0:50:07.320 --> 0:50:11.360 single subject. Instead, it seems that Sarah is living in 0:50:11.440 --> 0:50:15.600 a stew of many conflicting emotions and desires, all of 0:50:15.640 --> 0:50:18.320 which are thwarted at the same time, Like she wants 0:50:18.360 --> 0:50:21.600 to be an adult and have independence and self determination, 0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:25.399 but feels like something is preventing her. But also there 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:28.040 are signs that she wants to go the other way 0:50:28.080 --> 0:50:31.920 and regress into the self centered mind space of childhood 0:50:32.239 --> 0:50:34.880 and just be free of all responsibilities and all cares 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:37.319 about others. And we see this in the way that 0:50:37.360 --> 0:50:40.239 she hides in a room and finds solace in her 0:50:40.239 --> 0:50:43.319 collection of stuffed animals, and later in the way she 0:50:43.560 --> 0:50:47.759 unfairly projects resentment onto her baby brother. And I think 0:50:47.800 --> 0:50:52.960 that feeling of complex and even mutually exclusive, thwarted desires 0:50:53.080 --> 0:50:56.880 is very relatable to anybody who remembers being a teenager themselves, 0:50:57.120 --> 0:50:59.440 Like I remember what that felt like in a way 0:50:59.440 --> 0:51:02.880 where it was just like everything was confusing and frustrating 0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:06.880 and nothing felt right and there wasn't actually one single 0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:09.560 cause of it. It's just that that's what it's like 0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:12.600 to be fifteen or sixteen. The conflict here isn't just 0:51:12.640 --> 0:51:13.680 about babysitting. 0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:16.000 Yeah, and it's not that your stepmom is telling you 0:51:16.040 --> 0:51:20.080 to go water a stump. Yeah yeah, yeah. And so 0:51:20.120 --> 0:51:22.440 of course she goes to her room, and boy, what 0:51:22.520 --> 0:51:25.399 a room it is. I think we've talked about kids 0:51:25.520 --> 0:51:28.479 rooms on the show before, but this is always something 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:30.719 that I pay a lot of attention to when I 0:51:30.719 --> 0:51:33.839 watch a film. How have you decorated this child's room? 0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:37.280 Did you just print out some stuff from Getty Images 0:51:37.400 --> 0:51:39.440 and you're pretending it's a poster or did you use 0:51:39.480 --> 0:51:42.520 real posters? You know? Is it all fake franchise stuff? 0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:45.840 Does it feel like a child actually lived in this 0:51:45.960 --> 0:51:48.480 room or not? And I think they do just a 0:51:48.680 --> 0:51:53.320 fabulous job with Sarah's room here, with her reality of stuff, 0:51:53.480 --> 0:51:55.560 which is going to be vitally important to the plot, 0:51:55.880 --> 0:51:58.479 of course, but it also needs to feel real. 0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:01.600 Yeah. What are her music posters? She have like staying 0:52:01.640 --> 0:52:02.600 on the wall or something. 0:52:02.719 --> 0:52:02.959 Yeah. 0:52:03.080 --> 0:52:06.439 Yeah. But also we see in the room. I think 0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:08.439 it's in her room that there's a copy of Where 0:52:08.440 --> 0:52:11.800 the Wild Things Are. That really caught my eye because 0:52:12.160 --> 0:52:14.920 currently my daughter is obsessed with Where the Wild Things Are? 0:52:14.960 --> 0:52:17.480 She calls it Max Boat you know, Max gets in 0:52:17.480 --> 0:52:19.120 a boat goes across the ocean. 0:52:19.360 --> 0:52:21.400 Oh that's a great one. Yeah, yeah, we read that 0:52:21.440 --> 0:52:22.160 one a lot too. 0:52:22.719 --> 0:52:25.920 She likes to here where the wild things are, like 0:52:26.040 --> 0:52:30.160 while she's eating, she's having dinner, and she wants us 0:52:30.160 --> 0:52:32.640 to read it to her while she's having dinner, which 0:52:32.640 --> 0:52:33.800 we indulge in sometimes. 0:52:33.800 --> 0:52:35.000 And what's her favorite wild thing? 0:52:35.480 --> 0:52:38.480 Well, honestly, I think it's Max. She likes Max. He's 0:52:38.520 --> 0:52:40.200 the king of the wild things. He's the one who 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:42.759 says it's time to let the wild rump us begin. 0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:45.080 So all right, solid solid. 0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:47.239 I don't know. Maybe as we continue to read it 0:52:47.280 --> 0:52:49.799 over time, she'll she'll find more more to love down 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:54.919 the character sheet. But anyway, Sarah is left to take 0:52:55.000 --> 0:52:58.360 care of Toby while her parents go out, and so 0:52:58.680 --> 0:53:02.719 she discovers at some point that one of her old 0:53:02.800 --> 0:53:05.279 stuffed animals I think it's named Lancelot. It's like a 0:53:05.280 --> 0:53:08.600 teddy bear named Lancelot has been taken from her room 0:53:08.680 --> 0:53:11.880 and given to the baby, and this makes her even 0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:15.680 more angry. And then the baby's crying and she doesn't 0:53:15.719 --> 0:53:18.520 know how to make him stop, which again, you know, 0:53:18.640 --> 0:53:21.719 is a relatable feeling. It does create this feeling of helplessness, 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:25.160 and while in the middle of all these frustrations about 0:53:25.160 --> 0:53:29.680 to boil over, Sarah suddenly gets an idea, a terrible idea, 0:53:30.040 --> 0:53:32.680 an idea that seems to be related to the book 0:53:32.800 --> 0:53:35.920 or the play that she's been memorizing. She gets the 0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:39.680 idea to, I think, sort of say a magic spell 0:53:39.840 --> 0:53:44.080 from whatever the story is that makes goblins come and 0:53:44.400 --> 0:53:47.839 take a child away. And this actually leads to one 0:53:47.840 --> 0:53:51.640 of my favorite little stylistic choices, one of my favorite 0:53:51.760 --> 0:53:55.800 editing moments in the movie. So when she's trying to 0:53:55.800 --> 0:53:58.640 remember the words to say to summon the goblin magic 0:53:58.680 --> 0:54:03.320 and remove Toby from her life, suddenly, with no warning 0:54:03.360 --> 0:54:06.840 at all, we just cut to a bunch of goblin 0:54:06.960 --> 0:54:10.320 faces waiting with baited breath for her to say the words. 0:54:10.360 --> 0:54:13.000 They're like yelling at each other, like know listen She's 0:54:13.000 --> 0:54:16.920 gonna say the words. Such an odd and surprising choice, 0:54:17.239 --> 0:54:20.200 the way we just smash cut to goblins with no 0:54:20.440 --> 0:54:25.000 previous introduction or even indication that they exist. Everything up 0:54:25.040 --> 0:54:28.920 to this point has been fully realistic, no fantasy elements 0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:32.000 at all, and so the first time we see anything 0:54:32.040 --> 0:54:37.080 magical is an absolutely unexpected smash cut. It almost reminds 0:54:37.120 --> 0:54:40.120 me of the moment in the Exorcist when Reagan is 0:54:40.160 --> 0:54:42.279 at the doctor's office and she's staring up at the 0:54:42.280 --> 0:54:45.640 ceiling and we smash cut to the Pazuzu face peering 0:54:45.640 --> 0:54:49.160 out of the darkness. This isn't as as evil and 0:54:49.239 --> 0:54:52.160 menacing as that, but it's semi evil and a little 0:54:52.160 --> 0:54:55.600 bit scary. And I love the way that the magic 0:54:55.800 --> 0:54:58.520 just bursts in like that with no warning at all. 0:54:59.200 --> 0:55:01.200 Yeah, we don't and really get a clear sense of 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:03.520 where the goblins are. Are they in the closet, and 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:05.680 are in the walls? Are they just in the nether void? 0:55:06.400 --> 0:55:10.120 You know that's easily accessible, but equally distance distant from 0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:13.520 you know, our real life at any time. But yeah, 0:55:13.640 --> 0:55:15.680 all this build up is wonderful. I love too how 0:55:15.719 --> 0:55:20.160 she's self narrating her plight here, including talking about one 0:55:20.239 --> 0:55:24.240 day when baby was especially cruel to her, Yes, which 0:55:24.239 --> 0:55:28.439 of course is just such a deliciously over the top 0:55:28.480 --> 0:55:33.000 exaggeration of her current circumstance. Yes, the baby Toby was 0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:37.080 cruel to you today, Baby Toby definitely stole your stuffed animal. 0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:43.080 So anyway, she does eventually remember the words to say, 0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:47.480 and then the magic descends, Toby disappears, he is gone, 0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:51.360 and instead she is now faced with David Bowie playing 0:55:51.360 --> 0:55:55.560 the Goblin King Jerreth. He appears in Toby's room and 0:55:55.800 --> 0:55:59.160 she quite quickly regrets that she sent Toby away. You know, 0:55:59.200 --> 0:56:02.480 she wants him back, but Jared says, at first I 0:56:02.480 --> 0:56:04.359 think he says she can't have him back, and then 0:56:04.400 --> 0:56:06.520 finally he says, okay, she can only have him back 0:56:06.840 --> 0:56:09.320 if she makes it to his castle at the center 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:13.000 of the Great Labyrinth before midnight, and if not, Toby 0:56:13.040 --> 0:56:15.920 will become absorbed into the Goblin Horde. He will just 0:56:15.960 --> 0:56:16.920 become goblin. 0:56:17.680 --> 0:56:20.960 Yes, yeah, I mean, there's just so many great details 0:56:21.040 --> 0:56:23.359 in this moment and leading up to it. I mean, 0:56:23.400 --> 0:56:26.920 I love the goblins when they start invading the room. Yes, 0:56:27.040 --> 0:56:32.040 I love. I love Jared laying out the challenge you 0:56:32.120 --> 0:56:34.960 have thirteen hours in which to solve the Labyrinth and 0:56:35.400 --> 0:56:38.239 making a time go weird on her, and then the 0:56:38.640 --> 0:56:40.760 first of what will be kind of a recurring element 0:56:40.760 --> 0:56:44.160 in the film of characters really trying to shoot down 0:56:44.160 --> 0:56:47.600 her optimism, you know, where she says, Okay, I can 0:56:47.640 --> 0:56:49.800 do this, and he's like, it's further than you think, 0:56:50.280 --> 0:56:52.799 you know, and we'll get something similar from Hoggle later on, 0:56:52.880 --> 0:56:54.640 where he's like, yeah, it just gets tougher from here 0:56:54.680 --> 0:56:57.400 on out, you know which, These lines seem to like 0:56:57.480 --> 0:57:00.920 echo a sort of adult sensibility that has been handed 0:57:00.960 --> 0:57:04.000 down to Sarah and is reflected in the fantasy world here. 0:57:04.400 --> 0:57:08.319 Yeah. Yeah, So suddenly we're in a different place. We 0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:10.520 have been taken to the Goblin Kingdom. We're not in 0:57:10.560 --> 0:57:14.320 Sarah's house anymore. How would you describe the esthetics of 0:57:14.360 --> 0:57:16.040 the Goblin Kingdom? What is this world? 0:57:16.240 --> 0:57:16.320 Like? 0:57:16.920 --> 0:57:20.400 Oh, it's beautiful for starters, but it's also a little 0:57:20.400 --> 0:57:24.680 bit desolate and everything. So many surfaces in the Goblin realm, 0:57:24.880 --> 0:57:27.400 and it varies depending on what section of the labyrinth 0:57:27.440 --> 0:57:30.320 you're in. So many surfaces look like they have very 0:57:30.360 --> 0:57:32.840 recently been crawled over by some sort of a fairy 0:57:32.960 --> 0:57:35.680 slug that leaves just a little bit of a like 0:57:35.720 --> 0:57:38.080 a glistening sparkle to everything. 0:57:38.000 --> 0:57:40.120 A glittering mucus trail overall. 0:57:40.280 --> 0:57:44.480 Yeah, but it does, I think read rather accurately like 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:48.200 a fine kingdom that has been ruled too long by goblins. Like, yes, 0:57:48.760 --> 0:57:51.840 upkeep is happening, but it's maybe not as loving as 0:57:51.920 --> 0:57:52.479 it could be. 0:57:52.800 --> 0:57:57.960 Yes now pretty quickly. While finding her way to the 0:57:58.720 --> 0:58:01.640 entrance of the labyrinth so she can get Toby back, 0:58:02.680 --> 0:58:06.280 Sarah runs into someone. She meets, a character named Hoggle, 0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:07.960 who's going to be one of the main characters in 0:58:08.000 --> 0:58:11.200 the movie. When we first meet Hoggle, he is urinating 0:58:11.240 --> 0:58:16.720 into a reflecting pool. Yeah yeah, but so that's I 0:58:16.720 --> 0:58:20.040 guess an inauspicious beginning. But it's sort of a difficult 0:58:20.040 --> 0:58:22.680 meeting at first. Hoggle is not inclined to be very 0:58:22.720 --> 0:58:27.240 helpful to her. Instead, he is busy poisoning fairies, I think, 0:58:27.320 --> 0:58:30.400 like dusting them with some like fairy insecticide. 0:58:30.920 --> 0:58:34.000 Yep, yep, he is exterminating fairies. He is not helpful. 0:58:34.280 --> 0:58:38.720 He is grumpy. Hoggle is interesting because Hoggle is not 0:58:40.320 --> 0:58:46.400 maybe not objectively cute, but you do grow to love him. 0:58:46.840 --> 0:58:49.600 He is a character that will betray Sarah over and 0:58:49.640 --> 0:58:54.000 over again and really struggles to muster any like true 0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:58.080 sustaining courage. But you know eventually he's going to get there, 0:58:58.320 --> 0:59:00.200 but you do have to be patient with him on 0:59:00.240 --> 0:59:01.320 that journey. 0:59:01.440 --> 0:59:04.680 That's right, And he does sort of disappear and reappear 0:59:04.720 --> 0:59:06.160 repeatedly throughout the story. 0:59:06.480 --> 0:59:08.560 Yeah yeah, he's difficult to count on for a while. 0:59:08.800 --> 0:59:15.080 Yeah, So, when Sarah first goes into the quick question 0:59:15.360 --> 0:59:18.440 of terminology, should we continue to call it the labyrinth 0:59:18.560 --> 0:59:22.040 or should we call it a maze? I think I 0:59:22.160 --> 0:59:26.200 recall from our episodes on the Minotaur that technically a 0:59:26.280 --> 0:59:29.720 labyrinth is one in which there is only one path 0:59:29.760 --> 0:59:32.960 and it does lead ineluctably to the ending. Is that 0:59:33.040 --> 0:59:34.080 right you. 0:59:34.080 --> 0:59:38.560 By some definitions? Absolutely? So, Yeah, in some respects you 0:59:38.560 --> 0:59:40.800 could think of the labyrinth here as more of a maze. 0:59:42.000 --> 0:59:45.120 But I don't know. I mean, if the ruler of 0:59:45.120 --> 0:59:47.160 this room calls it a labyrinth, I guess we have 0:59:47.200 --> 0:59:50.280 to respect his goblin word choices. 0:59:50.600 --> 0:59:53.439 Well, I guess that's true. In any case, it does 0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:55.760 not seem that this is a place where you just 0:59:56.000 --> 0:59:58.200 continue walking and you will eventually get to the end. 0:59:58.280 --> 1:00:00.960 You have to make choices about where to where to go. 1:00:02.280 --> 1:00:06.120 But when Sarah first gets into the labyrinth, it's interesting 1:00:06.160 --> 1:00:09.760 that the first real challenge she faces is that she 1:00:09.800 --> 1:00:11.960 can't find anywhere to turn. It just seems like one 1:00:12.160 --> 1:00:15.400 endless corridor. And so she has a wonderful little scene 1:00:15.440 --> 1:00:18.800 where she discusses this with a worm who tells her 1:00:18.960 --> 1:00:20.880 he's like, ah, yeah, I can't tell you. I can't 1:00:20.920 --> 1:00:23.919 help you. I'm just a worm. But then he does 1:00:24.040 --> 1:00:28.240 provide some helpful advice because she discovers that there are 1:00:28.720 --> 1:00:31.400 gaps in the walls that she can move through to 1:00:31.400 --> 1:00:34.560 make turns and find new ways to navigate through the maze, 1:00:34.840 --> 1:00:37.720 but they're hidden by optical illusions. And I love the 1:00:37.760 --> 1:00:40.840 effects used here because from what I can tell, there's 1:00:41.000 --> 1:00:44.440 no real trickery going on except that they just like, 1:00:44.920 --> 1:00:47.400 for example, we'll have a gap in the walls of 1:00:47.440 --> 1:00:51.320 the maze that from the perspective we're looking at it 1:00:51.360 --> 1:00:54.520 totally blends in with the wall behind it, so you 1:00:54.560 --> 1:00:57.040 can't even tell their two separate walls. 1:00:57.360 --> 1:01:00.320 Yeah. Absolutely, I think it's just a complete practical illusion 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:01.360 that they depend on here. 1:01:01.560 --> 1:01:12.360 Yeah, now we don't have time to talk through the 1:01:12.520 --> 1:01:16.080 entire plot seen by scene, but maybe maybe we should 1:01:16.120 --> 1:01:19.040 just pick out some of our favorite moments as Sarah 1:01:19.160 --> 1:01:24.120 is navigating the labyrinth and its challenges and and and 1:01:24.200 --> 1:01:27.160 the people she meets along the way. One thing I 1:01:27.200 --> 1:01:29.360 know you wanted to talk about was the riddle of 1:01:29.400 --> 1:01:31.760 the doors. Who with the dogs guarding them? 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:34.600 Yeah? Yeah, these guys are a lot of fun. I 1:01:34.640 --> 1:01:37.680 covered these on the monster fact a while back. They're 1:01:37.680 --> 1:01:40.080 they're they're delightfully weird enough on their own, of course, 1:01:40.560 --> 1:01:45.440 two headed dog like humanoid creatures that are fixed behind shields, 1:01:45.600 --> 1:01:48.560 kind of in the manner of double headed European playing cards. 1:01:48.760 --> 1:01:51.880 It's already a wild design. But then the scenario gets 1:01:51.920 --> 1:01:55.320 even wilder because we find out, of course, that one 1:01:55.360 --> 1:01:57.080 door leads to the castle at the center of the 1:01:57.160 --> 1:01:59.960 labyrinth and the other one leads to Bubba Bubom stain 1:02:00.080 --> 1:02:03.400 and death. The lower heads have no idea what's going on, 1:02:03.440 --> 1:02:06.560 which door is which the upper heads do, but Sarah 1:02:06.600 --> 1:02:09.560 is only permitted to ask one of them. Furthermore, one 1:02:09.560 --> 1:02:12.240 of the two guardians always tells the truth, while the 1:02:12.240 --> 1:02:15.680 other one always lies. So Sarah faces a conundrum here. 1:02:15.720 --> 1:02:18.280 How can she find out which door is which? How 1:02:18.320 --> 1:02:22.000 can she risk asking the wrong guardian and being lied to? 1:02:22.880 --> 1:02:27.080 And this is really fascinating because the scenario here, of course, 1:02:27.120 --> 1:02:30.360 instantly invokes what is known as the liar's paradox. If 1:02:30.400 --> 1:02:32.840 a liar tells you they are lying, then they are 1:02:32.840 --> 1:02:35.400 telling the truth. So you can consider the statement this 1:02:35.480 --> 1:02:38.120 sentence is a lie. If that statement is true, then 1:02:38.120 --> 1:02:40.720 it's false. If it's false, then it's true. 1:02:40.680 --> 1:02:43.240 Right, hence that it's a paradox it's self contradictory. 1:02:43.800 --> 1:02:47.840 Yeah. Now the scenario that Sarah is facing here, I 1:02:47.880 --> 1:02:49.960 have to admit that I really have to do some 1:02:50.000 --> 1:02:52.480 mental gymnastics to make sense of the riddle here. I 1:02:52.520 --> 1:02:54.960 think when I was younger, at one point I did 1:02:55.000 --> 1:02:57.880 like settle down and think about it long and hard 1:02:57.960 --> 1:02:59.960 enough to where it clicked. But for the most part, 1:03:00.440 --> 1:03:02.600 I just really have to trust that the film is 1:03:02.640 --> 1:03:04.280 not lying to me when it tells me that this 1:03:04.360 --> 1:03:07.240 is the correct answer. But I did research it a 1:03:07.240 --> 1:03:10.400 little bit. As John Tourre points out in the paper 1:03:10.480 --> 1:03:14.480 objective falsity is essential to lying an argument from convergent 1:03:14.520 --> 1:03:18.280 evidence published in Philosophy Studies twenty twenty one, Sarah here 1:03:18.360 --> 1:03:22.520 is engaging in what is called answer laundering. The truth 1:03:22.800 --> 1:03:26.680 and the lie dependably cancel each other out in this scenario, 1:03:26.800 --> 1:03:30.840 provided Toy stresses that lies cannot be true because the 1:03:31.240 --> 1:03:34.160 answer laundering she engages here is, of course, she asks 1:03:34.840 --> 1:03:37.439 one of the guards what the other guard would say 1:03:38.040 --> 1:03:42.320 in reaction to her question, and she uses that answer 1:03:42.560 --> 1:03:44.160 to figure out which way is which. 1:03:44.600 --> 1:03:47.800 But that makes sense because you know either way that 1:03:47.880 --> 1:03:49.840 will point you to the wrong door. If you ask 1:03:49.880 --> 1:03:53.240 the truth telling guard what the other guard would say, 1:03:53.680 --> 1:03:56.080 they will truthfully tell you that the other guard will 1:03:56.160 --> 1:03:58.240 lead you to the wrong door. And if you ask 1:03:58.280 --> 1:04:00.880 the lying guard what the truth tells guard would say, 1:04:00.920 --> 1:04:04.680 they will lie and tell you the wrong door. So 1:04:04.960 --> 1:04:07.560 either way that indicates which door is the wrong one. 1:04:07.680 --> 1:04:09.840 So by elimination you know which is the right one. 1:04:10.200 --> 1:04:12.920 It's a piece of gay. So Terry points out that 1:04:12.960 --> 1:04:15.800 the riddle here of the four guards is a variant of, 1:04:16.320 --> 1:04:18.640 or seems to be a variant of the Knights and Knaves, 1:04:18.640 --> 1:04:22.760 a logic puzzle from Raymond Smulliam's nineteen seventy eight publication 1:04:23.160 --> 1:04:26.280 What is the Name of This Book? Yeah, This scenario 1:04:26.360 --> 1:04:28.680 closely resembles what we see in Labyrinth. It involves a 1:04:28.760 --> 1:04:32.600 knight and a nave otherwise indistinguishable. Who guard a fork 1:04:32.640 --> 1:04:34.919 in the road? Which road are you going to take? 1:04:35.240 --> 1:04:37.920 Dare you ask these two men given that one is 1:04:37.960 --> 1:04:40.880 secretly a noble knight and one is secretly a vile nave. 1:04:41.440 --> 1:04:45.880 The solution, again is via answer laundering. You ask which 1:04:45.960 --> 1:04:48.680 path the other individual would say is the correct one, 1:04:48.880 --> 1:04:50.560 and then you can use that to determine which is 1:04:50.560 --> 1:04:54.000 the correct way. Sarah guesses correctly, but of course Sarah 1:04:54.080 --> 1:04:57.040 gets cocky and she gets the trap door for her efforts. 1:04:58.040 --> 1:05:00.480 It almost indicates that she got it wrong, but I 1:05:00.480 --> 1:05:01.800 think she did get it right. 1:05:02.400 --> 1:05:03.480 I believe so. Right. 1:05:03.600 --> 1:05:07.600 Yeah, yeah, So she goes through the door and then 1:05:07.640 --> 1:05:11.560 immediately falls down a trapdoor into and there's like a 1:05:12.040 --> 1:05:14.640 so the pit she falls into. It's kind of funny 1:05:14.680 --> 1:05:17.040 that there are all these hands poking out the walls, 1:05:17.520 --> 1:05:20.160 you know, like they like stop her from falling, and 1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:22.760 they say they're helping hands, and they form faces that 1:05:22.920 --> 1:05:25.800 talk out of the gloved hands. So it's kind of 1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:28.680 a weird creepy scene. It reminds me of something actually 1:05:28.680 --> 1:05:31.640 that would be in Return to Oz and they feel right. 1:05:31.760 --> 1:05:35.680 Yeah, absolutely, yeah, great sequence, a very inventive use of 1:05:35.760 --> 1:05:39.040 hand puppetry. Yeah, there's nothing else like it. 1:05:39.640 --> 1:05:41.120 But they ask her if she wants to go back 1:05:41.200 --> 1:05:42.760 up or to go back or to go all the 1:05:42.760 --> 1:05:45.320 way down, and for some reason she chooses down. So 1:05:45.400 --> 1:05:50.200 that ends up dropping her into an oubliette where she eventually, 1:05:51.000 --> 1:05:53.360 oh she here. She meets back up with Hoggle again. 1:05:53.520 --> 1:05:57.640 Yeah. Rescued by Hoggle, they make a deal over some jewelry, right. 1:05:58.520 --> 1:06:02.160 I think there's some addition negotiations with Jareth down here. 1:06:03.120 --> 1:06:04.760 I think this is the sequence where they have to 1:06:04.880 --> 1:06:07.800 run from this like nightmare device that's chasing them down 1:06:07.800 --> 1:06:10.240 a tunnel, threatening to grind them into the wall. But 1:06:10.280 --> 1:06:13.160 they eventually they bust through and find a ladder up 1:06:13.160 --> 1:06:16.760 to the surface, after which they talk to like a 1:06:17.240 --> 1:06:19.680 snoozy old wise man who I think is sort of 1:06:19.680 --> 1:06:22.000 a dog but also is a human and then has 1:06:22.000 --> 1:06:23.160 a bird on his head. 1:06:23.280 --> 1:06:27.160 Yep, yep, and they gets some limited amounts of wisdom 1:06:27.200 --> 1:06:27.880 from this character. 1:06:28.840 --> 1:06:31.600 Somewhere around here also is where we meet another one 1:06:31.800 --> 1:06:35.400 of the Lovable Friend characters who become a part of 1:06:35.400 --> 1:06:40.640 Sarah's gang. This is Ludo. Ludo is initially caught in 1:06:40.720 --> 1:06:43.680 a trap and hanging upside down and being badgered by 1:06:43.720 --> 1:06:47.479 a bunch of goblins. Ludo is like a large sort 1:06:47.520 --> 1:06:51.240 of sasquatch type creature with sort of curving horns on 1:06:51.320 --> 1:06:54.680 his head, who appears very monstrous but in fact is 1:06:54.720 --> 1:06:56.160 actually quite sweet natured. 1:06:56.600 --> 1:06:59.440 Yeah, or if you're Gene Siskel, this is a ripoff 1:06:59.480 --> 1:07:01.320 of Chewbac. What a ripoff? 1:07:03.000 --> 1:07:07.160 Because he has fur? Is that it I guess he's 1:07:07.200 --> 1:07:09.640 big and has fur, therefore is Chewbacca. 1:07:10.080 --> 1:07:12.400 But yeah, Ludo's great, Ludo's a gentle giant. 1:07:12.480 --> 1:07:16.360 You love him, Yes, lovable. Sarah rescues Ludo from being 1:07:16.720 --> 1:07:18.680 harassed by the goblins. 1:07:18.440 --> 1:07:21.280 With the nibbler sticks. Great sequence. And oh and then 1:07:21.280 --> 1:07:24.160 this is where they're doing the hobby horse technique here 1:07:24.200 --> 1:07:25.480 for the little guys running around. 1:07:25.480 --> 1:07:25.880 It's great. 1:07:26.000 --> 1:07:27.840 Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, so they've got like these 1:07:27.880 --> 1:07:30.680 little monsters attached to the ends of sticks that they're 1:07:30.840 --> 1:07:34.400 using to bite Ludo with. But then she frees him. 1:07:34.560 --> 1:07:36.960 She she like gets the goblins all fighting each other 1:07:37.040 --> 1:07:40.480 until they run away, and then she frees him, and 1:07:40.800 --> 1:07:45.520 after that Ludo is friend. Now in this sequence, Hoggle 1:07:45.640 --> 1:07:47.920 runs away, but he'll show back up again later. I 1:07:47.920 --> 1:07:50.800 think somewhere around in here is where Sarah ends up 1:07:50.840 --> 1:07:52.680 running into the fire Gang. 1:07:53.480 --> 1:07:58.200 Yes, the Fire Gang or the Fieries. Oh, these are 1:07:58.240 --> 1:08:01.480 creatures that have always been pure nightmare fuel to me. 1:08:02.160 --> 1:08:06.040 They're a band of musical bird like goblinoids with like 1:08:06.160 --> 1:08:11.600 bright you know, orange and fire colored feathers fur somewhere 1:08:11.600 --> 1:08:16.240 in between, and they have disturbing natural abilities in the 1:08:16.280 --> 1:08:20.880 realms of pyrokinesis as well as dismemberment. They can rip 1:08:20.960 --> 1:08:25.080 their bodies apart and reattach them at will willy nilly 1:08:25.240 --> 1:08:28.400 in various positions. They can even connect their limbs together 1:08:28.560 --> 1:08:33.639 into new monstrous shapes. It's a sequence full of body horror, 1:08:34.240 --> 1:08:39.600 dance music, Menace Mayham. It is a lot to process, 1:08:40.240 --> 1:08:42.920 but it is a musical number. The song here is 1:08:43.040 --> 1:08:46.640 David Bowie's Chili Down. If you listen to the soundtrack 1:08:46.680 --> 1:08:49.080 Slash Score album you get to hear Bowie singing on 1:08:49.160 --> 1:08:51.479 it a little bit of belief. But in the film 1:08:51.880 --> 1:08:55.360 it is performed by Kevin Klash born nineteen sixty. Know, 1:08:56.000 --> 1:08:58.439 you know as the voice of Elmo, the original voice 1:08:58.439 --> 1:09:02.120 of Elmo. He the voice of the main Fiery. Then 1:09:02.120 --> 1:09:05.760 you have Danny John Jules born nineteen sixty a British actor, 1:09:05.840 --> 1:09:08.080 dancer and singer who is also a member of the 1:09:08.120 --> 1:09:12.080 Blood Pack in Blade two. He voices Fiery four, the 1:09:12.120 --> 1:09:15.800 really dangerous looking one. Then you have Charles Oggens, a 1:09:15.840 --> 1:09:19.880 British actor, dancer and choreographer who also choreographed this scene 1:09:19.880 --> 1:09:23.200 as well as the excellent magic dance scene from earlier. 1:09:24.240 --> 1:09:26.880 And then also you have the actor Richard Bodkin doing 1:09:26.880 --> 1:09:32.880 a voice as well. So just some horrifying, freaky goblinoid 1:09:32.880 --> 1:09:37.639 creatures here performing a very wild song. And this whole sequence, 1:09:37.680 --> 1:09:41.800 of course, escalates into them deciding they need to dismember 1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:45.000 Jennifer Connolly Sarah. They need to rip her head off, 1:09:45.240 --> 1:09:47.880 because you're not supposed to throw other people's heads, even 1:09:47.920 --> 1:09:50.040 though they throw each other's heads around earlier, Like they 1:09:50.040 --> 1:09:52.679 don't even follow their own rules. They're just pure creatures 1:09:52.720 --> 1:09:53.320 of chaos. 1:09:53.560 --> 1:09:55.360 Yeah, what are the lines where they're like trying to 1:09:55.360 --> 1:09:57.400 pull her head off? They're like, Eh, it's not coming off. 1:09:57.400 --> 1:09:58.040 What's going on? 1:09:58.320 --> 1:09:58.519 Yeah? 1:09:58.600 --> 1:09:59.240 Pull harder? 1:09:59.680 --> 1:10:01.720 Yeah. And that's one of the things that I think 1:10:01.760 --> 1:10:04.040 always like really struck me about this scene. It's like 1:10:04.560 --> 1:10:08.080 it's two different realities clashing. Their reality is one of 1:10:08.360 --> 1:10:13.840 just fun dismemberment. It's easily reversible and you can play 1:10:13.880 --> 1:10:16.759 with it. It's a good time for everybody. But Sarah 1:10:16.800 --> 1:10:19.759 is from a world where dismemberment is permanent, is permanent 1:10:20.200 --> 1:10:24.240 and fatal, and they just don't understand that. Why don't 1:10:24.240 --> 1:10:25.680 you want to take your head off? What is the 1:10:25.720 --> 1:10:26.760 matter with you? Now? 1:10:26.800 --> 1:10:29.160 You mentioned that there was an earlier part of the 1:10:29.200 --> 1:10:32.439 movie that featured a musical number called the Magic Dance. 1:10:32.479 --> 1:10:34.600 I didn't remember exactly where this came, but this is 1:10:34.640 --> 1:10:38.160 the one where we get to see inside the Goblin 1:10:38.240 --> 1:10:42.680 Castle where David Bowie's hanging out. Toby is there with 1:10:42.760 --> 1:10:45.000 all the goblins. He's sort of crying. It looks like 1:10:45.120 --> 1:10:47.439 Toby's not having a great time, but the goblins are 1:10:47.479 --> 1:10:50.360 all partying, and I guess this song is sort of 1:10:50.360 --> 1:10:52.240 about how Toby's going to become one of them. 1:10:52.800 --> 1:10:57.120 Yeah. Yeah, it's a great sequences, a great song. Bowie 1:10:57.120 --> 1:10:59.000 seems to be having a great time as Jareth here 1:10:59.120 --> 1:11:01.759 with throwing the bait be around and just so many 1:11:01.800 --> 1:11:05.519 goblin shenanigans as well. This is a goblin packed musical number. 1:11:05.840 --> 1:11:08.439 You got a goblin doing the Barney gumbel, like laying 1:11:08.479 --> 1:11:10.880 down with his mouth under the tap of the beer keg. 1:11:11.120 --> 1:11:13.400 Yeah. When I was watching it here, I said to 1:11:13.400 --> 1:11:14.760 my son he was watching with me, I was like, 1:11:14.800 --> 1:11:17.360 why why doesn't this goblin just get a cup? Like 1:11:18.200 --> 1:11:20.400 they're not charging by the cup here? This is just 1:11:20.479 --> 1:11:22.599 this seems to be free for any goblins. But now 1:11:22.600 --> 1:11:24.680 he's like, it's just so much easier if I just 1:11:24.760 --> 1:11:27.759 lay down underneath it on the floor and just catch 1:11:27.760 --> 1:11:29.719 straight droplets of the stuff. 1:11:29.920 --> 1:11:33.000 Yeah, the cup requires too much arm exercise. It's difficult. 1:11:33.479 --> 1:11:37.480 It's goblin mode, I guess. Yeah, so at any rate, Yeah, 1:11:37.560 --> 1:11:40.920 the fire Gang is something else, Yes, But Sarah does 1:11:40.960 --> 1:11:44.439 eventually escape the fire Gang with the help of Hoggle. 1:11:44.479 --> 1:11:46.760 I think Hoggle like throws down a ladder to her 1:11:46.800 --> 1:11:49.120 from the top of a top of a wall to 1:11:49.160 --> 1:11:52.120 help him get away, or maybe a rope. Maybe that's it. 1:11:52.400 --> 1:11:55.000 Yeah, yeah, And so she's able to escape and doesn't 1:11:55.000 --> 1:11:56.280 get ripped to pieces. 1:11:56.800 --> 1:12:00.519 But Hoggle and Sarah end up in the Ball of 1:12:00.760 --> 1:12:05.000 Eternal Stench. This is a place Hoggle has been threatened 1:12:05.000 --> 1:12:07.360 with before. I think that, you know, it's like, if 1:12:07.400 --> 1:12:10.200 he doesn't do what Jarreed, the Goblin King says, he's 1:12:10.200 --> 1:12:12.360 going to be cast into the Bog of Eternal Stench. 1:12:12.680 --> 1:12:15.760 The premise is that the bog smells very bad, and 1:12:16.000 --> 1:12:18.960 if any part of your body touches the liquid in 1:12:19.040 --> 1:12:20.799 the bog, you will stink forever. 1:12:21.640 --> 1:12:24.760 Yeah, for the rest of your life. And I've long 1:12:24.920 --> 1:12:27.519 puzzled over that, like how it works. How does it 1:12:27.560 --> 1:12:30.480 permanently taint you like that? Does it change your biology? 1:12:30.960 --> 1:12:33.839 What would it look like in like Dungeons and Dragons rules. 1:12:33.920 --> 1:12:38.320 Is it like a permanent like disadvantage to all charisma 1:12:38.400 --> 1:12:39.680 roles or something I don't know. 1:12:40.120 --> 1:12:42.760 Yeah, now here in the bog of Eternal Stench, they're 1:12:42.800 --> 1:12:47.960 trying to get out without touching the cursed water, and 1:12:48.120 --> 1:12:50.040 at one point they need to cross a bridge, but 1:12:50.120 --> 1:12:53.519 their path is blocked by a feisty little character who 1:12:53.560 --> 1:12:56.400 will later become part of our group of friends. This 1:12:56.600 --> 1:12:59.680 is Serditimus, who I think is either supposed to be 1:12:59.680 --> 1:13:02.559 a fire or some type of dog. Though it's sort 1:13:02.600 --> 1:13:06.160 of confusing because he's a muppet who is an anthropomorphic 1:13:06.280 --> 1:13:09.200 fox or dog, but he rides a dog. He's got 1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:11.559 a dog that is a dog, and he rides the dog. 1:13:11.800 --> 1:13:15.599 Yeah, it's kind of the Pluto goofy paradox once more. 1:13:15.840 --> 1:13:19.320 Yes, Yeah, Sir Dinamus is kind of a reap, a 1:13:19.400 --> 1:13:22.720 cheap sort of character. He's like, he's very small and 1:13:22.880 --> 1:13:27.519 feisty and thinks himself very chivalrous and he's always itching 1:13:27.600 --> 1:13:28.040 for a fight. 1:13:28.400 --> 1:13:31.479 Yeah, he's a lot of fun. He's always down to joust. 1:13:31.680 --> 1:13:35.479 But his mout, of course, frequently is not as we'll see. 1:13:35.880 --> 1:13:40.439 So Sarah Ludo and Hoggle are trying to trying to 1:13:40.439 --> 1:13:42.320 get through this place, and I think they get blocked 1:13:42.320 --> 1:13:44.760 at a bridge by Sir Dinymus. But I think Sarah 1:13:44.840 --> 1:13:48.200 is the one who figures out that Sir Dinimus is saying, 1:13:48.240 --> 1:13:50.800 no one may pass this bridge without my permission, so 1:13:50.920 --> 1:13:53.719 she realizes she can just ask his permission. It seems 1:13:53.760 --> 1:13:55.800 this has never occurred to Sir Didymus, that he can 1:13:55.920 --> 1:13:58.200 just grant permission and still keep his vow. 1:13:58.720 --> 1:14:01.400 Yeah, yeah, He's like, oh, yeah, sure, granted. They're like 1:14:01.439 --> 1:14:02.479 all right, good, let's go. 1:14:03.520 --> 1:14:05.880 Yeah, and so they're like leaving. Now there is an 1:14:05.880 --> 1:14:09.120 interesting thing here where we discovered that Ludo is not 1:14:09.240 --> 1:14:13.000 only friend to Sarah, he is also friend to rocks. 1:14:13.200 --> 1:14:15.880 Because there's one point where Sarah is sort of like, 1:14:16.040 --> 1:14:18.880 I think a bridge collapses underneath her. She's dangling over 1:14:18.920 --> 1:14:21.960 the bog by hanging onto a tree branch, and she 1:14:22.120 --> 1:14:25.679 is saved when Ludo summons his rock friends to emerge 1:14:25.760 --> 1:14:27.400 up out of the earth so that she can use 1:14:27.439 --> 1:14:29.200 them as stepstones to cross the water. 1:14:29.680 --> 1:14:31.599 That's right, and of course this will come into play 1:14:32.479 --> 1:14:34.679 in one of the climaxes of the picture. 1:14:35.000 --> 1:14:37.840 Now there is up here somewhere we get one of 1:14:37.880 --> 1:14:42.759 the Hoggle betrayals, because Hoggle gives Sarah a poisoned peach 1:14:42.920 --> 1:14:47.000 that the Goblin King gave to him, and this turns 1:14:47.360 --> 1:14:49.960 this sort of sends Sarah into a trance where she 1:14:50.200 --> 1:14:54.960 experiences a magic masquerade ball where she is she is 1:14:55.040 --> 1:14:58.160 tempted to divert from her mission to save Toby and 1:14:58.280 --> 1:15:00.880 instead just sort of, I don't know, becomes some kind 1:15:00.880 --> 1:15:02.160 of evil queen of magic. 1:15:02.960 --> 1:15:06.440 Yeah, yeah, it's like this is one of Jared's temptations 1:15:06.479 --> 1:15:08.280 to her, like this is what your life could be 1:15:08.400 --> 1:15:11.080 if you just loved me and stayed with me here 1:15:11.080 --> 1:15:14.439 in this realm. And so it's this dreamy but also 1:15:15.240 --> 1:15:20.080 frightening sequence, you know, it is it feels like some 1:15:20.120 --> 1:15:23.320 sort of a weird trip, you know, it's it's a 1:15:23.360 --> 1:15:26.120 great sequence, but it's not like there are there are 1:15:26.120 --> 1:15:28.519 a lot of uncanny elements to it. They're creepy masks, 1:15:29.400 --> 1:15:33.160 you know, sort of typical I guess, you know, period 1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:38.439 masks that the other dancers are wearing. They're also there's 1:15:38.479 --> 1:15:43.559 a feeling of actually being like drugged, of reality being 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:45.439 slowed down because she is drugged. But we have to 1:15:45.520 --> 1:15:48.400 remember if she ate a poisoned peach, and that's how 1:15:48.439 --> 1:15:51.920 she's entered into this realm. And it's this feeling of like, Okay, 1:15:51.960 --> 1:15:55.560 now the hallucination is upon her, and can she recognize 1:15:55.560 --> 1:15:58.400 it for the hallucination it is and break free from it? 1:15:58.760 --> 1:16:00.559 And in the midst of this, of course, we have 1:16:00.560 --> 1:16:03.759 another musical number, we get as the World Falls Down, 1:16:03.920 --> 1:16:07.360 which I mean, no big surprise. I love all of 1:16:07.400 --> 1:16:09.640 these songs, so I will also say this is a 1:16:09.640 --> 1:16:14.040 great one. But yeah, it has a nice dreamy air 1:16:14.120 --> 1:16:16.920 to it, a nice dancing and slow motion within a 1:16:17.000 --> 1:16:18.639 silver prison kind of a song. 1:16:26.760 --> 1:16:29.960 Now, Sarah does not fully succumb to these temptations, and 1:16:30.000 --> 1:16:33.679 she does wake up in a different place. She wakes 1:16:33.760 --> 1:16:37.200 up in a sort of a garbage world, a giant 1:16:37.400 --> 1:16:40.719 junkyard that seems to lie outside of the Goblin City, 1:16:41.400 --> 1:16:44.000 and she meets a character who is like a junk 1:16:44.040 --> 1:16:48.280 trader woman who I think is trying to like Sarah's 1:16:48.400 --> 1:16:52.360 memory seems only partially intact at this point, and she's 1:16:52.400 --> 1:16:55.160 not fully aware of what she was supposed to be doing, 1:16:55.720 --> 1:16:58.960 and this junk trader woman is like offering her up 1:16:59.000 --> 1:17:03.439 a little like trinket and baubles and toys to I 1:17:03.479 --> 1:17:06.160 think this is part of a different type of temptation 1:17:06.360 --> 1:17:08.960 we were talking about earlier about her like multiple different 1:17:09.000 --> 1:17:11.280 desires at the beginning of the movie, and this is 1:17:11.360 --> 1:17:14.040 the temptation to just sort of regress, to go back 1:17:14.080 --> 1:17:17.960 into childhood and just obsess over over little trinkets and 1:17:18.680 --> 1:17:23.720 selfish toys and collecting little magic, glittering things. And the 1:17:23.800 --> 1:17:26.120 Lady of the junk World is trying to tempt her 1:17:26.160 --> 1:17:27.040 into that fate. 1:17:27.960 --> 1:17:30.519 Yeah, it's a great sequence. This also perhaps a little 1:17:30.520 --> 1:17:33.559 bit frightening, because you know, she goes into what seems 1:17:33.600 --> 1:17:36.559 to be her childhood room and it seems like maybe 1:17:36.560 --> 1:17:39.479 she's back, but then imburse the junk Lady, and the 1:17:39.520 --> 1:17:43.040 junk Lady has this enormous backpack of stuff that has 1:17:43.120 --> 1:17:47.760 just seemed to like crush and wither her. And there 1:17:47.800 --> 1:17:50.720 is this scene where Sarah's seated in front of her 1:17:50.800 --> 1:17:53.040 mirror in her childhood room, but the junk Lady is 1:17:53.040 --> 1:17:56.040 bringing her all over things and at least visibly from 1:17:56.080 --> 1:17:59.679 an invisible sense, piling up like a pile of things 1:17:59.720 --> 1:18:03.360 behind and Sarah's back, as if constructing her own backpack 1:18:03.640 --> 1:18:06.800 that will eventually wither and crush her, you know, like, 1:18:06.920 --> 1:18:09.800 here are your earthly possessions, and they are meaningful in 1:18:09.840 --> 1:18:13.280 and of themselves, and this is what you should cling to, 1:18:13.880 --> 1:18:17.120 you know, forget what they might represent. That's not important. 1:18:17.160 --> 1:18:19.479 Here's your stuff. Just focus on your stuff. 1:18:19.720 --> 1:18:23.200 But fortunately, while being weighed down with these things that 1:18:23.280 --> 1:18:25.479 I think, in the view of the movie, don't really matter, 1:18:25.560 --> 1:18:29.360 all these trinkets and treasures, she is saved by the 1:18:29.360 --> 1:18:32.599 things that do matter, which are her friendships. She starts 1:18:32.640 --> 1:18:35.160 to kind of realize something is wrong. The place is 1:18:35.200 --> 1:18:37.599 sort of crumbling, and she's like climbing out of this 1:18:37.760 --> 1:18:41.559 false room prison, and she meets up with and is 1:18:41.600 --> 1:18:45.799 rescued by her group of friends, including Hoggle and Didymus 1:18:45.920 --> 1:18:46.800 and Ludo. 1:18:47.000 --> 1:18:49.639 And so from here, basically to get to the castle 1:18:49.680 --> 1:18:51.559 at the center of the center of the Goblin City, 1:18:51.880 --> 1:18:55.719 they're like two more obstacles. First there's like the gate, 1:18:56.040 --> 1:18:58.439 which has a big automaton in it, and then there 1:18:58.479 --> 1:19:04.040 is the Goblin City. The automaton battle is a sequence 1:19:04.080 --> 1:19:06.479 that I've always found to be very visually impressive. You know, 1:19:06.520 --> 1:19:10.719 I really like the creature design here, but it also 1:19:10.840 --> 1:19:13.040 has always felt like kind of a natural bathroom break. 1:19:13.360 --> 1:19:16.400 I don't know there's something about it that it shouldn't. 1:19:17.080 --> 1:19:19.439 I'm not saying it's boring, but it is not as 1:19:19.479 --> 1:19:20.639 exciting as it should be. 1:19:20.800 --> 1:19:23.120 Hoggle is actually this is one where we get to 1:19:23.120 --> 1:19:25.559 see Hoggle. You're brave though he's the one who defeats 1:19:25.600 --> 1:19:26.719 the Goblin mech. 1:19:26.800 --> 1:19:30.640 Yeah, it's actually it's absolutely essential from that standpoint, But 1:19:31.080 --> 1:19:33.360 I don't know. I've always found something was lacking here. 1:19:33.720 --> 1:19:36.759 But anyway, we passed that test and now the party 1:19:36.840 --> 1:19:39.680 is united. Everyone's behind Sarah. But yet they have to 1:19:39.680 --> 1:19:42.240 move through the Goblin City and that's where they are 1:19:42.240 --> 1:19:46.839 met with the Goblin army and we get this enormous battle. 1:19:46.920 --> 1:19:49.840 It is. It's a real blast, a mad cap slapstick 1:19:50.000 --> 1:19:53.760 battle for the ages, featuring every goblin you've seen in 1:19:53.800 --> 1:19:57.240 the film thus far. Just hordes of goblins of varying types, 1:19:57.640 --> 1:20:03.400 all sorts of shenanigans, explode usions, sword fights, Ludo calls 1:20:03.439 --> 1:20:07.240 the Rocks. I always enjoy watching this sequence. 1:20:07.880 --> 1:20:10.439 It's a great thing when he calls the Rocks for help, 1:20:10.479 --> 1:20:12.840 and then we get to see boulders rolling uphill to 1:20:12.920 --> 1:20:14.040 attack the goblins. 1:20:15.200 --> 1:20:17.680 So they get through that, and then it's time for 1:20:17.720 --> 1:20:22.599 the final showdown. With Jarreth in Jared's stronghold, and we 1:20:22.600 --> 1:20:25.479 get the scene where we see versions of this in 1:20:25.520 --> 1:20:27.320 a lot of pictures, right, and a lot of stories. 1:20:27.600 --> 1:20:29.839 Sarah has to go in alone, she has to confront 1:20:29.880 --> 1:20:33.439 Jarreth alone. Her friends can't help her in this part 1:20:33.479 --> 1:20:35.439 of the quest, and so they say goodbye to her 1:20:35.720 --> 1:20:40.240 and she ventures into this mc escher world of you know, 1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:43.040 mind bending paradoxical staircases. 1:20:43.640 --> 1:20:46.000 That's right, And it's not just a comparison. She basically 1:20:46.200 --> 1:20:49.400 literally is in the MCEs you're drawing with the staircases 1:20:49.439 --> 1:20:51.320 and the doorways going in every direction. 1:20:51.640 --> 1:20:53.360 Yeah, this was another I think there's a poster in 1:20:53.360 --> 1:20:54.840 her room to this effect as well. 1:20:55.439 --> 1:20:58.000 Yeah, and we get a song here, right. 1:20:58.080 --> 1:21:01.280 Yeah, this is within You. That is is really great 1:21:01.280 --> 1:21:03.960 because it's threatening, it's very threatening in places, but it's 1:21:03.960 --> 1:21:08.280 also very vulnerable in places. And Bowie's vocal performance here 1:21:08.320 --> 1:21:10.800 is great too, because you have these parts of it 1:21:10.840 --> 1:21:14.639 where he's very firm and commanding, and then other bits 1:21:14.680 --> 1:21:18.320 where his voice is like trailing off and growing weak, 1:21:18.920 --> 1:21:22.000 like almost like he is dying while singing it. Because 1:21:22.040 --> 1:21:24.799 this is all of course, Jarreff's final appeal to Sarah, 1:21:24.920 --> 1:21:29.200 like please you know, just fall in line, you know, 1:21:29.320 --> 1:21:34.400 be here with me, don't defy me. And but no, 1:21:34.560 --> 1:21:36.720 Sarah is going to stick to her guns and she 1:21:36.840 --> 1:21:39.080 is going to do what it takes to defeat Jarreff. 1:21:40.120 --> 1:21:43.040 What exactly that is I still have questions about but 1:21:43.080 --> 1:21:43.599 she doesn't. 1:21:44.040 --> 1:21:47.000 Well, I checked. So what she does to defeat him 1:21:47.040 --> 1:21:51.599 is she remembers the words, which is interesting because that's 1:21:51.640 --> 1:21:54.360 the same thing she did to get into this trouble 1:21:54.360 --> 1:21:58.040 in the first place. By remembering the words, the lines 1:21:58.120 --> 1:22:01.120 from the Goblin story. That's how she got Toby kidnapped 1:22:01.120 --> 1:22:04.439 by the goblins. Remembering the lines from the story is 1:22:04.479 --> 1:22:08.040 also how she defeats Jarreth. She says she has the 1:22:08.080 --> 1:22:10.200 same lines she was reciting at the very beginning of 1:22:10.200 --> 1:22:14.080 the story when she says, through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, 1:22:14.080 --> 1:22:16.120 I fought my way here to the castle beyond the 1:22:16.120 --> 1:22:18.360 Goblin City, and so on and so on. It goes 1:22:18.360 --> 1:22:21.520 on several more sentences, but it ends with her remembering 1:22:21.560 --> 1:22:24.080 the final line that she couldn't remember at the beginning. 1:22:24.479 --> 1:22:27.400 My kingdom is as great and you have no power 1:22:27.520 --> 1:22:30.360 over me. She repeats this, you have no power over me, 1:22:30.960 --> 1:22:33.960 And then I think the clock chimes midnight or one 1:22:34.040 --> 1:22:36.200 whatever it is that the time that she had to 1:22:36.320 --> 1:22:40.320 rescue Toby by and Jareth is defeated, and so she 1:22:40.720 --> 1:22:43.080 gets to go back home with Toby. 1:22:42.880 --> 1:22:45.160 Thirteen o'clock, I believe, think I don't know if it's 1:22:45.200 --> 1:22:46.160 thirteen pm or. 1:22:46.080 --> 1:22:50.240 Am, But I like how there's an ending where she 1:22:50.760 --> 1:22:54.599 sort of reconciles her earlier frustrations with Toby, Like she 1:22:55.000 --> 1:23:00.360 repents of her earlier scapegoating of Toby because Toby wasn't 1:23:00.400 --> 1:23:03.320 really the problem, you know, she was. Like she's just 1:23:03.400 --> 1:23:06.200 struggling with herself and her role in life at this point, 1:23:06.880 --> 1:23:09.400 and I think she has some perspective on that. But 1:23:09.439 --> 1:23:12.720 also I like how she ends up sort of reconciling 1:23:13.200 --> 1:23:18.000 her relationship with fantasy. She realizes she has to part 1:23:18.080 --> 1:23:20.400 ways with her magical friends, she has to live in 1:23:20.439 --> 1:23:22.800 this world, but she also needs to see them from 1:23:22.800 --> 1:23:23.479 time to time. 1:23:24.120 --> 1:23:28.559 Yeah. Yeah, So she defeats Jarreth again. I never doubt 1:23:28.600 --> 1:23:31.880 this on an emotional level, you know what's happening, Like 1:23:31.920 --> 1:23:34.559 she finds the strength to overcome him, and then she's 1:23:34.560 --> 1:23:37.479 back in her room. She sees like the reflection of 1:23:37.479 --> 1:23:40.760 her friends through the mirror. But realizes she can call 1:23:40.800 --> 1:23:42.759 on them when she needs them, and then she does 1:23:43.120 --> 1:23:45.320 and we get like a final big party sequence in 1:23:45.360 --> 1:23:48.559 her room, which is great. Though I've always been disturbed 1:23:48.560 --> 1:23:52.880 by the fact that the Fire Gang members are there, Yes, like, 1:23:52.960 --> 1:23:54.840 why did you invite them? Why did you could have 1:23:54.880 --> 1:23:57.320 maybe just let them go, Sarah, It's right, you don't 1:23:57.320 --> 1:24:00.639 have to keep all of these strange creatures. Maybe let 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:03.320 the fire guys go off and live their own life 1:24:03.360 --> 1:24:06.960 and oblivion. But no, they're there as well, but they 1:24:06.960 --> 1:24:08.639 seem to be well behaved. They're not trying to pull 1:24:08.680 --> 1:24:09.439 anybody apart. 1:24:09.840 --> 1:24:14.640 I invited the bog of eternal stench here it's in 1:24:14.720 --> 1:24:15.559 my sink now. 1:24:15.960 --> 1:24:19.759 And we once more get the theme song underground and 1:24:19.800 --> 1:24:23.320 we roll back. We see that the owl, the animal 1:24:23.400 --> 1:24:25.920 form of Jared, has like been watching through the window 1:24:26.200 --> 1:24:28.360 and then takes off and flies away into the night. 1:24:29.040 --> 1:24:31.720 It's beautiful. It is. It's, like I say, very like 1:24:31.800 --> 1:24:35.880 emotionally and visually beautiful, satisfying conclusion to the picture. 1:24:36.240 --> 1:24:38.759 So in the end, you agree with Ciskel that it's awful, 1:24:38.880 --> 1:24:39.920 ugly and terrible. 1:24:40.720 --> 1:24:45.760 I could not disagree with ciscl more on Labyrinth. I mean, 1:24:46.720 --> 1:24:48.880 it really was challenging to talk about Labyrinth here in 1:24:48.880 --> 1:24:51.560 some respects because you could go on and on, or 1:24:51.600 --> 1:24:53.639 I could go on and on about just about any 1:24:53.720 --> 1:24:57.559 moment in the picture. There's always something interesting going on 1:24:57.720 --> 1:25:00.559 in the set design or in the costuming, in the 1:25:00.560 --> 1:25:04.599 particular dialogue choices that are in play lyrics to the songs. 1:25:04.600 --> 1:25:07.439 There are some weird lyrics to these songs we didn't 1:25:07.439 --> 1:25:10.400 even get into. There are also lines of dialogue, particularly 1:25:10.439 --> 1:25:13.880 from David Bowie. Some of them I never fully understood, 1:25:13.920 --> 1:25:16.559 Like I couldn't really understand what he's saying until like 1:25:16.760 --> 1:25:18.800 this viewing of the picture where I was like, all right, 1:25:18.960 --> 1:25:21.479 I'm going to turn on the captions for a minute, 1:25:21.479 --> 1:25:23.519 and it's like, oh, he's saying, well laugh. And I 1:25:23.560 --> 1:25:25.800 always thought he said well love. I don't know why 1:25:25.920 --> 1:25:27.920 I thought that was the line, but that's what I've 1:25:27.960 --> 1:25:29.320 been hearing for decades. 1:25:29.680 --> 1:25:32.559 Huh. Yeah, this is the kind of movie where I 1:25:32.560 --> 1:25:34.679 feel like a lot of things, especially when you're watching 1:25:34.720 --> 1:25:36.679 as a kid, can just go right over your head. 1:25:37.920 --> 1:25:39.800 But you know, there are lots of confusing things in 1:25:39.840 --> 1:25:42.400 the world of the Labyrinth. Yeah, you know, it's a 1:25:42.439 --> 1:25:46.360 film in a world full of paradoxes and illusions, and 1:25:46.400 --> 1:25:50.880 it's part of its texture. There was some essay I 1:25:50.880 --> 1:25:52.759 was looking at. Maybe it's the one I started earlier 1:25:52.760 --> 1:25:55.360 talking about, Well, some people were confused when they saw Jared, 1:25:55.439 --> 1:25:57.679 when they saw David Bowie's charif, and it's like, well, yeah, 1:25:57.920 --> 1:26:01.880 you should be confused whole Jared. He is supposed to 1:26:01.920 --> 1:26:05.200 be this alluring and kind of confusing character, Like that's 1:26:05.479 --> 1:26:06.320 that's intentional. 1:26:07.000 --> 1:26:09.879 It was the confusion like why isn't he a goblin 1:26:10.040 --> 1:26:12.639 like the others? Like why are the goblins ruled over 1:26:12.720 --> 1:26:14.880 by a rock star who with a human form? 1:26:15.240 --> 1:26:18.400 Right? That? And then also some of the aspects of 1:26:19.439 --> 1:26:23.800 Jariff being a like a sexually alluring character, but in 1:26:23.840 --> 1:26:26.599 a way that makes sense, like he is he is 1:26:26.960 --> 1:26:30.679 like his role is in relationship to Sarah, a young woman, 1:26:31.080 --> 1:26:33.719 and therefore he has these kind of like pop star 1:26:34.000 --> 1:26:36.920 elements to him, you know. Yeah, And and so there 1:26:36.920 --> 1:26:39.479 are a lot of deliberate choices with the way that 1:26:39.520 --> 1:26:43.559 he is presented as an object of obsession and desire, Like. 1:26:43.560 --> 1:26:45.879 Would be on a poster on a bedroom wall. 1:26:45.920 --> 1:26:48.080 Yeah, yeah, but a bedroom but a poster on the 1:26:48.080 --> 1:26:52.960 bedroom wall that also is directly bordering the fay world 1:26:53.040 --> 1:26:56.559 and is influenced by the strange energies of the fairy folk. 1:26:56.880 --> 1:26:59.679 Yes, why do you think Jared is an owl? 1:27:00.479 --> 1:27:02.519 Well, you know, the owl is a is a magical 1:27:02.600 --> 1:27:05.080 bird of the night, so I guess it is a 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:07.240 fitting animal form. 1:27:07.640 --> 1:27:11.920 The owl is dangerous, the owl is inscrutable, the owl 1:27:12.160 --> 1:27:15.520 is yeah, yeah, it seems like it's got secrets. 1:27:15.880 --> 1:27:18.360 Yeah, all right, Well, we're gonna gohead and close this 1:27:18.360 --> 1:27:19.920 one out, but we would love to hear from everyone 1:27:19.960 --> 1:27:22.280 about Labyrinth. I'm sure a lot of you have thoughts, 1:27:22.720 --> 1:27:25.400 thoughts about things that we discussed in this episode, but 1:27:25.479 --> 1:27:28.320 also again, many of the details in the picture that 1:27:28.360 --> 1:27:31.280 we didn't have time to get into, so right in 1:27:31.400 --> 1:27:33.519 we would love to hear from you. A reminded The 1:27:33.520 --> 1:27:35.280 Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and 1:27:35.280 --> 1:27:37.800 culture podcast, with core episodes in Tuesdays and Thursdays, but 1:27:37.840 --> 1:27:40.240 on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to talk 1:27:40.280 --> 1:27:42.640 about a weird film here on Weird House Cinema. And 1:27:42.680 --> 1:27:44.040 if you want to see a full list of the 1:27:44.080 --> 1:27:46.360 movies we've done over the years on Weird House Cinema, 1:27:46.479 --> 1:27:48.479 go to letterbox dot com. That's l E. T T 1:27:48.600 --> 1:27:50.800 E R B O x D dot com. Our user 1:27:51.120 --> 1:27:53.160 name there is weird House and you'll find the nice 1:27:53.240 --> 1:27:55.960 list and if you're on Instagram, follow us at stb 1:27:56.200 --> 1:27:57.120 ym podcast. 1:27:57.800 --> 1:28:01.439 Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 1:28:01.600 --> 1:28:03.240 If you would like to get in touch with us 1:28:03.240 --> 1:28:05.759 with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 1:28:05.760 --> 1:28:07.760 a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 1:28:07.840 --> 1:28:10.360 you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 1:28:10.400 --> 1:28:18.040 your Mind dot com. 1:28:18.160 --> 1:28:21.120 Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 1:28:21.200 --> 1:28:24.000 more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 1:28:24.120 --> 1:28:27.080 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.