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Speaker 1: This information is being put in the hands of a

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Speaker 1: government that seeks to actively harm those people.

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Speaker 2: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and unbost Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 2: is there are No Girls on the Internet. TikTok is

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Speaker 2: now officially operating under American ownership for users in the

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Speaker 2: United States, and that shift is happening at a moment

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Speaker 2: when a lot of people are already feeling angry, scared,

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Speaker 2: and on edge, including in the wake of yet another

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Speaker 2: killing at the hands of ice in Minnesota. So for

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Speaker 2: people who use TikTok to document abuse, organize, or speak

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Speaker 2: out about what's happening in their communities, this timing matters,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of us aren't really trusting that a

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Speaker 2: TikTok operating under this new American ownership and working hand

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Speaker 2: and glove with the Trump administration is going to protect

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Speaker 2: our ability to speak freely about real issues, especially when

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Speaker 2: those issues involve state violence or dissent. According to CNBC,

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Speaker 2: TikTok users have been deleting the app at a higher

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Speaker 2: rate since the company announced its US operations. The daily

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Speaker 2: average of users deleting TikTok in the US has increased

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Speaker 2: nearly one hundred and fifty percent over the past five

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Speaker 2: days compared with the previous three months. Now, there's been

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Speaker 2: no shortage of warnings, rumors, and worst case scenarios about

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Speaker 2: what this new era of TikTok might actually mean. So

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Speaker 2: rather than speculate, I wanted to get clear on what's

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Speaker 2: actually happening and what isn't. To help separate back from fear,

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Speaker 2: I turned to an expert.

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Speaker 1: My name is Jessica Maddox and I am an associate

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Speaker 1: professor of Media Studies at the University of Georgia.

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Speaker 2: Jess has been using her own social media platforms to

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Speaker 2: try and educate people about what this new leadership at

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Speaker 2: TikTok actually means. So, Jess, you're a social media expert,

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Speaker 2: not in the way that I sometimes say I am,

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Speaker 2: Like you literally have a PhD in this tell us

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Speaker 2: about your background and just how you became somebody who

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Speaker 2: is interested in studying social media and how it works. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I always joke I grew up with the Internet. I

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Speaker 1: mean going really far back. I got a computer and

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Speaker 1: the Internet in my house back in like nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: six because my dad was a software engineer. So we

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Speaker 1: were always on like the cutting edge of technology, I guess,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know. I always have just really loved

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Speaker 1: the Internet from like even when I was a kid

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Speaker 1: playing like Neo pets. Oh my god, Neo rights right right.

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Speaker 1: I think it was like the that was like the

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Speaker 1: precursor to animal crossing. I think in like a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways, but yeah, I have always loved it. I

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Speaker 1: was on live journal in Zanga back in the early days.

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Speaker 1: I actually went to Cus School nothing to do, nothing

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Speaker 1: related to this. I was an English major. And then

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Speaker 1: when I graduate in the last financial crash, there were

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Speaker 1: no jobs. So I was working part time on a

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Speaker 1: magazine and they were like, oh, well, you're the youngest

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Speaker 1: person in the office. Figure out this thing called social

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Speaker 1: media for us. And I was like, I get to

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Speaker 1: do this for a living, Like this could be a job.

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Speaker 1: And so I went back to school to get a

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Speaker 1: master's in public relations to do social media strategy. Got

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Speaker 1: introduced to the academic stuff and realized those were actually

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Speaker 1: my burning questions about the world. Got a PhD. I've

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Speaker 1: been a professor for nine no, no a year. That

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Speaker 1: nine sounds scary. Eight years now I have tenure, which

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Speaker 1: is a privilege I don't take lightly, and yeah, here

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Speaker 1: I am. I basically it's an occupational hazard that I

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Speaker 1: talked shit on the internet.

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Speaker 2: You're absolutely allowed. Yeah, okay, okay, I have to tell

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Speaker 2: you this is like, I'll be talking about this all day,

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Speaker 2: so I promise i'll read it in. I'm so glad

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Speaker 2: that you brought up things like Zanga, MySpace, neopets. I

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Speaker 2: can't tell you how many people I've interviewed on the

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Speaker 2: show where that was their entry point into tech. I've talked.

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Speaker 2: I've talked to people who like are high up in

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Speaker 2: tech companies and they're like, oh, it all started with neopets.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, yeah, if I had to say, it all started

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Speaker 1: for new with neopets.

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Speaker 2: For me to.

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Speaker 1: I have a PhD next.

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Speaker 2: Reporting on TikTok has not always been easy. At one point,

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Speaker 2: we actually put an internal moratorium on discussing any TikTok

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Speaker 2: ownership news on the podcast unless it was fully confirmed

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Speaker 2: by the company itself. And that's because there's been so

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Speaker 2: much speculative or incorrect information circulating about TikTok, often repeated

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Speaker 2: by people who really should know better. For example, you

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Speaker 2: might remember that in the summer of twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 2: reputable news outlets like Reuter's reported that TikTok was going

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Speaker 2: to be replaced in the US by a brand new

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Speaker 2: standalone app, sometimes referred to as M two now. According

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Speaker 2: to the those reports, the new app was going to

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Speaker 2: be launching on September fifth, twenty twenty five, and Americans

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Speaker 2: would have un told March of this year to migrate

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Speaker 2: or lose access entirely. This story went everywhere. I saw

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Speaker 2: it repeated across the internet over and over again. I

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Speaker 2: even almost included it in one of our news roundups,

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Speaker 2: but the sourcing just felt a little bit sketchy to me,

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Speaker 2: so I held back, and I am so glad that

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Speaker 2: I did, because it was totally not true. And that

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Speaker 2: episode is a pretty perfect example of just how far

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Speaker 2: bad information about TikTok can travel, even when it starts

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Speaker 2: with sources that are generally pretty trustworthy. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: talk to you about the changes that have been made

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Speaker 2: on TikTok recently, in part because it's one of those

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Speaker 2: things where there's just so much misreporting and misinformation about

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Speaker 2: what's happening with TikTok. I remember, and it might have

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Speaker 2: been last year when there was a wave of reporting

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, they've already revealed what they're gonna do

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Speaker 2: with TikTok to keep it in the US. They've got

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Speaker 2: this new app, and that ended up being not correct,

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Speaker 2: and I almost put out an episode on it until

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Speaker 2: reading some of the recording and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is a lot of sources say I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember that?

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Speaker 1: I absolutely remember that. And I actually I had a

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Speaker 1: private video on my own TikTok page because so many

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Speaker 1: people were asking me about like, are we gonna have

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Speaker 1: to download a new app? And I was like no

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Speaker 1: when they were like, well, they said we were going

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Speaker 1: to last year, and I was like, but we don't

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Speaker 1: have to now, and they're like, how do you know?

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Speaker 1: And I was like, because it just vanished into the

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Speaker 1: ether that nobody's talking about it anymore. Like trust me,

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Speaker 1: if we had to, TikTok would have been pushing that

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Speaker 1: so hard. Because I made the joke on that video.

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Speaker 1: I was like, it's like when you're at a bachelorette

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Speaker 1: party and everybody's drunk and you're moving from bar to

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Speaker 1: bar and you're the sober friend that has to make

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Speaker 1: sure all the girls get to the next bar, but

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Speaker 1: you lose somebody. That is what it's like trying to

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Speaker 1: move to a new app is you're gonna lose a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people along the way. So TikTok was gonna

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Speaker 1: make sure nobody did that. That is such a great analogy.

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Speaker 2: I have been on both ends of that, So that's

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Speaker 2: that's an analogy that.

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Speaker 1: Works for the same I have been the drunk friend

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Speaker 1: and I have been the one wrangling everybody.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, I'm curious. Why do you think, especially with

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Speaker 2: this TikTok joint us venture thing that we know actually

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Speaker 2: happened this week, why do you think there has been

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Speaker 2: so much misinformation floating around. I've seen screen shots floating around,

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Speaker 2: I've seen people. A lot of it is like I

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Speaker 2: don't want to say, like it's almost inflammatory some of it.

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Speaker 2: Some of it is, and there are there are reasons

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Speaker 2: to be concerned, which we'll get into, but some of

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Speaker 2: it is almost sort of like it seems like it

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Speaker 2: is designed to get a panicked response out of people.

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Speaker 2: Where do you think this comes from?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it comes from a lot of different places.

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Speaker 1: And what I'm about to say, I want to make

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Speaker 1: it clear that I actually I don't blame people for

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Speaker 1: maybe sharing wrong information or inflammatinginformation, not totally, because I

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Speaker 1: think it has been very lucrative for social media companies

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Speaker 1: in the United States to not educate people about how

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Speaker 1: social media actually work. Nobody reads the terms of services

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Speaker 1: or community guidelines or privacy policies, and that is because

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Speaker 1: that's by design, right, most of these things are written

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Speaker 1: in very intense legal easee also, so and why would you?

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Speaker 1: Most of us are just and even me to some extent,

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Speaker 1: and I know better. I'm like check yes, except cookies, Yes,

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Speaker 1: like let's go, because that's just how our modern social

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Speaker 1: media ecosystem has been built, and that we're just like

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Speaker 1: whatever we opt in. So that I think is part

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Speaker 1: of the problem is that until people know to look

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Speaker 1: at these documents like terms of service and privacy policies,

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Speaker 1: they don't know what we're looking at. And again I

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Speaker 1: don't blame individuals for that, because the landscape has been

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Speaker 1: designed that we don't look at them. So when we

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Speaker 1: do finally start looking at them, I think people see

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Speaker 1: things that should actually, yes, rightfully shock them because they're

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Speaker 1: some pretty damning stuff in there. I also do think

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Speaker 1: it is social media and everybody wants to be first.

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Speaker 1: Everybody wants to be sensationalist. Everybody wants to engagement, everybody

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Speaker 1: wants to clicks. So people are going to rush to

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Speaker 1: say things and share things and reshare things like even

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Speaker 1: this morning, when I was reading the terms of service

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Speaker 1: and privacy policies myself, I was getting some text messages

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Speaker 1: and I was like, this could be true. I'm not

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Speaker 1: taking it as fact until I read these documents myself

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Speaker 1: and see it for myself.

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Speaker 2: These companies have built this climate where nobody, as you said,

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Speaker 2: is reading the full terms of service, and they've built

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Speaker 2: a climate where it people are rewarded for being first

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Speaker 2: and being inflammatory, which also benefits them. So it's just

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Speaker 2: like a doubly benefiting thing where nobody is reading and

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Speaker 2: educating themselves. People are rewarded for like saying things that

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Speaker 2: maybe aren't even true, and the cycle just goes around

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Speaker 2: and round.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. When I teach my Social Media and Society class,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of just like an undergraduate survey of

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Speaker 1: things about social media, I use my own Amazon Alexa

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Speaker 1: data as a teaching point to my students. And again

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Speaker 1: I know better, and I still have an Amazon Alexa,

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Speaker 1: So take that with what you will. But also this

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Speaker 1: becomes actually a really good teaching tool because I have

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Speaker 1: no qualms showing my data, and so I download all

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Speaker 1: of my Amazon Alexa data, put it up on the screen,

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Speaker 1: and class, I said, this is everything Amazon is collecting

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Speaker 1: about me. And the thing that gets them the most

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Speaker 1: is when Amazon has coded how I speak to my

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Speaker 1: Alexa in a positive, negative, or neutral tone, and their

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Speaker 1: faces is just like horror. And I said, okay, so

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Speaker 1: why would they do this? And my students I teach

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Speaker 1: brilliant young young kids, and I love them. They are

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Speaker 1: always able to point out and get to the point where, oh,

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Speaker 1: because if you're buying something through your Amazon Alexa, if

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Speaker 1: you speak about it positively, it is going to push

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Speaker 1: those advertisements to you, right, So the tone is connected

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Speaker 1: to purchase intention. So yeah, I think people are shocked

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Speaker 1: at actually because we don't read the terms of service, right,

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Speaker 1: we don't read the terms of service, we don't read

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Speaker 1: the privacy policies, and so these are all the things

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Speaker 1: that actually are being collected about us every time we

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Speaker 1: interact with technology. You know, I always remember I had

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Speaker 1: a high school economics professor who said the thing all

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Speaker 1: economics professors say, which is like, there's no such thing

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Speaker 1: as a free lunch, and that's the same thing there's

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Speaker 1: no such thing as a free service because if if

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Speaker 1: you're not paying your the product, yourself is the payment

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Speaker 1: to use the service. And I don't think people realize

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Speaker 1: that about social media, is that yes, it's free, but

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Speaker 1: what you are paying is your is the cost of

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Speaker 1: your information.

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Speaker 2: And I do think it's easy to forget the nitty gritty,

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Speaker 2: granular level of that information. Your Alessa is such a

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Speaker 2: good teaching tool because I talked about this stuff all

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Speaker 2: day long, and I'm like, oh, yeah, it would be

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Speaker 2: weird if Amazon knew, Like, oh, looks sounds like another

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Speaker 2: bad morning for Bridget when she's talking boys. Right, Oh, she.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't like that. Maybe we should recommend those things to her.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So the big nownouncement is that TikTok is now

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Speaker 2: going to be operated via the TikTok USDs joint Venture.

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Speaker 2: Fucking mouthful, what a mouth? Yeah? So what exactly is

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Speaker 2: that entity?

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Speaker 1: Yes, so this is an entity that is made up

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Speaker 1: And forgive me, I may not have the exact statistics right,

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Speaker 1: but roughly forty five percent it comes from three companies Oracle,

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Speaker 1: Silver Lake, and Abu Dhabi based mg X. I believe

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Speaker 1: thirty point one percent was original byte Edance. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it was by Dance, and then nineteen point nine percent

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Speaker 1: was original by Dance investors. And then there was a

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Speaker 1: up until yesterday, there was like an unnamed five percent.

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Speaker 1: And I believe that unnamed five percent, I believe is

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Speaker 1: the board with like Shao Chow, the current TikTok CEO,

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Speaker 1: and some other hand picked individuals.

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Speaker 2: So, uh, this might be a stupid question. Did the

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Speaker 2: government like the like the White House did Were they

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Speaker 2: the one to amass this group of people?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: And I say that hesitantly because yes, the US when

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Speaker 1: we look back at what happened and what led us here, right,

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Speaker 1: TikTok was banned as part of the big bill that

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Speaker 1: came through back in twenty twenty four and the tick

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Speaker 1: and I should note that the provision to ban TikTok

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Speaker 1: was folded into a much larger international aid and military package.

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Speaker 1: So I understand ish, not really, but sure why politicians

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Speaker 1: didn't vote against it because freezings. But that's a whole

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Speaker 1: other podcast episode you know about that. That So, and

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Speaker 1: then it went through the court Supreme cup Court upholds it.

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Speaker 1: Biden is leaving office and says it literally kicks the

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Speaker 1: can to Donald Trump and says, this is yours now,

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Speaker 1: which I don't love. And so then Trump says, We're

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Speaker 1: going to make a deal, and so yes, I believe

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Speaker 1: he had jd Vance, who was like the TikTok czar,

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Speaker 1: to like come up with this deal. And so the

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Speaker 1: US government did essentially help bring the players together. So

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Speaker 1: they may not have had an explicit hand, but they

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Speaker 1: allowed these individuals to come together, and the deal had

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Speaker 1: to be approved by the government to meet the terms

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Speaker 1: and conditions set out in that Military aid International Aid

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Speaker 1: bill that said TikTok could not operate in the United States.

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Speaker 2: There was a time where Trump was talking about this

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Speaker 2: and some elected officials were talking about this like it

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Speaker 2: was the TikTok was the biggest threat to national security

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Speaker 2: that we had. Then for a while it was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we can just push it, we can change the dead vibe,

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Speaker 2: and it was like what happened? I thought this was

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Speaker 2: like the biggest threat to our national security.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we have been talking about this, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think since twenty nineteen. Yeah, really, I think it

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Speaker 1: really kicked in twenty twenty. But I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: so over it. I'm honestly so over that we're still

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Speaker 1: talking about it after all this time. But what I

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Speaker 1: do think, yeah, is that there has been some hypocrisy

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Speaker 1: from both the Biden and the Trump administrations, because I

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Speaker 1: remember when the Biden administration passed that law or you know,

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Speaker 1: approved designed the bill that this provision was in. They

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Speaker 1: then went and had, like the Biden campaign when it

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Speaker 1: was still Biden running or whatever, joined TikTok. I was like,

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Speaker 1: if this is such a threat, why are you having

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Speaker 1: the president of the United stance reelection campaign on TikTok?

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Speaker 1: I don't get it. Make it make sense. And then

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Speaker 1: I believe Alexandra A. Kasiocorthos has even come out and said, like,

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Speaker 1: we've received no briefing that says this is actually a threat. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I remember that so clearly, and that's kind of I mean,

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Speaker 1: I obviously care about national security risks and all of that.

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Speaker 1: Course it really showed to me, Okay, this is about

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Speaker 1: you know, I think there was somebody who made a

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Speaker 1: joke of like, China wants to have my data. Don't

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Speaker 1: they know that's reserved for Mark Zuckerberg and other American

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Speaker 1: tech company owned. Well, that's the thing. I stopped taking

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Speaker 1: any of these conversations about data privacy seriously after Caridge.

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Speaker 1: The Cambridge Analytical data scandal happened in twenty sixteen when

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Speaker 1: a rogue Facebook app that like told you your IQ

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Speaker 1: or something used a backdoor to get into people's profiles

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Speaker 1: and access their friends profiles. That it was something I

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Speaker 1: believe like almost two hundred million, maybe one hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighty million people's data was compromised that was then sold

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Speaker 1: to political advertising firms in the United States, And I

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Speaker 1: realized then, I was like that no one cares. It's

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Speaker 1: a matter of who has your data. That's really what

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Speaker 1: people care about is which political groups have your data,

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Speaker 1: not actually that another country has your data.

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Speaker 2: I just feel like if we really gave a shit

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Speaker 2: about data and security and all that we would have

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Speaker 2: some sort of meaningful, comprehensive data privacy legislation in this country,

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Speaker 2: and we don't. And so until that that's the case,

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Speaker 2: it is just very difficult for me to take any

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Speaker 2: of these conversations seriously.

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Speaker 1: I completely agree and to any of your listeners in California, congratulations,

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Speaker 1: they have more data privacy than the rest of us,

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Speaker 1: because that state actually did pass some laws. So you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're ever on a site shopping or whatever. Even

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Speaker 1: in terms of service on social media, it says like,

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Speaker 1: if you live in California, click here, that's what that is.

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Speaker 1: If you've ever wondered, thank you for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard people say like, oh, I'm gonna get

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Speaker 2: a VPN and just try to tell that I'm in California. Ye,

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Speaker 2: so I can enjoy a little bit of data privacy legislation.

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Speaker 1: God, I wish right.

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Speaker 2: So what exactly is in those new TikTok policies just

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Speaker 2: breaks it down after this quick.

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Speaker 3: Break at our back.

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Speaker 2: In the US. TikTok officially moved to American ownership on

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Speaker 2: January twenty second, twenty six and since then you might

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Speaker 2: have seen a lot of pretty sensational posts about what

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Speaker 2: exactly this means. But Jess says it's really important to

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Speaker 2: slow down and look at what's actually true because a

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Speaker 2: lot of the things that folks are reacting to now

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Speaker 2: aren't really new.

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Speaker 1: Many of these.

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Speaker 2: Practices have already been happening, both on TikTok and other

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Speaker 2: social media platforms for quite some time. In other words,

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Speaker 2: there are more or less normal platform policies with some

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Speaker 2: big exceptions that we will get into, even if when

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Speaker 2: you really think about it, the amount of data we

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Speaker 2: give to social media companies has never really been all

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Speaker 2: that normal in the first place. Okay, So one of

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Speaker 2: the things I like about how you've been breaking down

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Speaker 2: these changes on TikTok is that you sort of helpfully

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Speaker 2: framed it as abnormal versus normal, with the big caveat

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Speaker 2: that stepping back in a kind of way, none of

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Speaker 2: this is really normal. I really liked that. How did

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Speaker 2: you land on that framework?

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Speaker 1: God, that's a great question. So I mean, I I

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Speaker 1: think that's it gets back to what we were saying

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Speaker 1: too about like all the misinformation and sensationalism is that

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Speaker 1: whenever there has been a change on TikTok, like I remember,

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Speaker 1: like I see people being like, oh, if you block

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Speaker 1: a certain company, your algorithm returns to normal, And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: that's not how algorithms work. But again, the lack of

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Speaker 1: education has gotten us to that point. So I don't

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Speaker 1: fault people for that. So whenever I try to make

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Speaker 1: a video about this stuff, I try to debunk some

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Speaker 1: stuff that seems to be kind of running uncontrolled. And

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Speaker 1: so one of the things I first saw was people

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Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, they're geolocating and like tracking

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Speaker 1: us now. And I was like, I hate to break

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Speaker 1: it to you, babes. That has been happening for a

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Speaker 1: long time from every social media platform ever. And this

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Speaker 1: is you should see the comments on my TikTok video.

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Speaker 1: It is a currently a people are fighting with each

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Speaker 1: other immensely about how they think this stuff works. And

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Speaker 1: I wish they wouldn't. I wish people would realize we

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Speaker 1: all can learn a lot about how this stuff works.

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Speaker 1: So that's my is like, Okay, look, so there was

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Speaker 1: some stuff updated about location tracking, but that's not new

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Speaker 1: and every social media platform does that. What is new again,

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Speaker 1: And I mentioned this in my social media posts about

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Speaker 1: this is the government's closeness to this all, and that

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Speaker 1: is what also concerns me about tracking for demographic characteristics. Again,

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Speaker 1: every social media platform tracks demographics. They track age, race,

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Speaker 1: country of origin, ethnicity, sexuality, gender. They do make profiles

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Speaker 1: about you based on what you do and what you post.

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Speaker 1: This has been another question I've gotten all in my comments,

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Speaker 1: like how would they know that? Well, if you say

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Speaker 1: that about yourself in a post or in a video

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Speaker 1: that gets recorded about you and to your your secret

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Speaker 1: profile over here, and that gets sold to advertisers. So

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Speaker 1: again that's nothing new. But what does concern me again

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Speaker 1: is the closeness of the government that this was a

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Speaker 1: deal that was again brought together by the Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: by this House, and we don't know again the level

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Speaker 1: of closes or how close that goes moving forward.

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Speaker 2: So that really sounds like the kind of abnormal piece

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Speaker 2: of this that yes, you know, collecting information about you.

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Speaker 2: I'm so sorry to be the person to tell you,

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Speaker 2: but it's been happening for a long time at every

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Speaker 2: social media platform that is yes, quote normal again none

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Speaker 2: of the right like normal from social media platforms.

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Speaker 1: Yes, great, great caveat that. Yes, this is not normal

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Speaker 1: and should not be normal, how much data I collect

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Speaker 1: about you, But given that that has become our de

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Speaker 1: facto normal, it is unfortunately normal.

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Speaker 2: And two pieces of demographic information that I know. TikTok

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Speaker 2: has updated their policy to say that they collect are

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Speaker 2: someone's gender status, like if they're trends or non binary

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Speaker 2: and their immigration status. Is collecting that bit of information

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Speaker 2: about people normal?

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Speaker 1: Well, unfortunately, yes, actually doing some research in the way

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Speaker 1: back machine. TikTok has actually collected this data about people

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Speaker 1: for years unbeknownst to us. However, is that the big

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Speaker 1: abnormal part is how the close relationship, how this deal

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Speaker 1: came to be, the close relationship to the White House,

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Speaker 1: and the fact specifically that this information is being is

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Speaker 1: being put in the hands of a government that seeks

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Speaker 1: to actively harm those people. I mean, we are seeing

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Speaker 1: that across the country with anti trans legislation, the absolutely

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Speaker 1: horrific and despicable actions of Ice, and that deeply concerns

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Speaker 1: me and I feel that is deeply abnormal for TikTok

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Speaker 1: to have this information listed, that says, hey, we track

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Speaker 1: this about you, and this now being controlled you know,

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Speaker 1: fifteen percent by the company of Oracle and the Ellisons,

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Speaker 1: who are very close and well documented Trump supporters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know how to ask this or if

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Speaker 2: it's even a question that you would would be comfortable

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Speaker 2: even like speaking to it all, But like you know,

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Speaker 2: the point of this show is to make tech accessible,

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Speaker 2: but particularly amplify the voices and represent folks who are

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Speaker 2: not often included in the conversation. Right, So, women, queer, folks,

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Speaker 2: trans folks, immigrants, all of that. And so if you

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Speaker 2: had a loved one or were in close community with

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Speaker 2: someone who you know was non binary, or trans or undocumented.

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Speaker 1: What would you would you tell?

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Speaker 2: Like, I don't, I don't. I want to be careful.

433
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: If people are wondering why I'm asking it this way,

434
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: is that I want to be so careful to not

435
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 2: be like, if you represent one of these groups, you

436
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 2: no longer have a voice on this platform. You don't,

437
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: You shouldn't. I'm not saying for you to show up

438
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: on this platform because that's so how our voices are

439
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 2: erased and minimized in these spaces already. So like what

440
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: do we do with that? Like, like how do we

441
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 2: turn that into practical advice?

442
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so I'm really glad you asked that question, and

443
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: I think you framed it beautifully, And that what I

444
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 1: always tell my students to is it is a matter

445
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 1: of personal comfort level, right, I don't know someone's personal

446
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: comfort level to handle these issues. Does this give me pause?

447
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 2: Yes?

448
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: Does it?

449
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: You know?

450
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely? It absolutely gives me pause. And I would And again,

451
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to ever tell anybody to get off

452
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: social media, because I do think people deserve to see

453
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: themselves and their stories represented online and again, and if

454
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: everybody runs off the platform, then again the bullies win.

455
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: And that's how tech stays white, cisgender, male, and that's

456
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: not good. That's not good for anybody. So I would

457
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: encourage people assess your own comfort level, that is something

458
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: you know more intimately than I do. Be careful, right, like,

459
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: always be smart, Always be careful. And I do think

460
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: that you know, you can also take a step back

461
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: without leaving forever. I do that in my own line

462
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: of work as well. Sometimes it just gets really overwhelming

463
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: to be online for whatever reason, and I think being

464
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 1: able to take a step back and say, hey, this

465
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: is not for me right now, and I'm going to

466
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: wait till I know more to see how things play out,

467
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: I think that is smart, right. I think a healthy

468
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: dose of caution is really good moving forward. But of

469
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: course I am aware. I'm also saying, this is a

470
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: white woman who has immense privilege. I also have the

471
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: privilege of academic freedom, even though with all the attacks

472
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: in the United States, to kind of hide behind that

473
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: shield to make these critiques. So just to I hope

474
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: everyone keeps that in mind. And as I listened to

475
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: this that you know your own comfort level better than

476
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 1: I do. If we all do run away, the bullies

477
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 1: win and it becomes an even bigger sauce pool. But

478
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: we also have to be smart and safe in these very,

479
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: very very awful times.

480
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, God, you said it, Like I there was a

481
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: time where Twitter was my most used social media place.

482
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,719
Speaker 2: Tim Now, I mean, I still have an account, but

483
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: my my pin TWI I have my bio says please

484
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: see pin tweet, and my pin tweet is like I'm

485
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: not really here anymore and same here. Yeah, and I

486
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: in a scheme of things, big deal, but it is

487
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 2: sort of like, I'm just so sick of getting pushed

488
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 2: out of these corners of the Internet that we that

489
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 2: we you know, carved out for ourselves. And not to

490
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: say that old Twitter was perfect, I had a lot

491
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: about it too, but I just I'm so sick of

492
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: sort of the handful of billionaires with some of the

493
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: most odious people taking over more and more and more

494
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 2: of our internet landscape. And it just I don't even

495
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: have a question, it's just it's I'm really sick of it.

496
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: I am the same way. I also, I mean, I

497
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: was also extremely active on Twitter, and I stayed for

498
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: a long time, even after Elon Musk ran it into

499
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: the ground and made it more of a cesspool. And

500
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: it was the Charlie kirkshooting that made me. I was like,

501
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: I'm done, I'm done at this site. But I do yeah,

502
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: I hate that too. I'm like, fuck you, stop ruining

503
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: my platforms. Basically, I because I think I don't know,

504
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't know what I think there.

505
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: I think that these are spaces where we all build

506
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: such good communities, and we build such wonderful things, and

507
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: it shows us just how precarious that is, and how

508
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: it is built on sand, and that poor business decisions,

509
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 1: or rather maybe not even poor business decisions, but very

510
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: deliberate business decisions that are at odds with how people

511
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: actually use social media can ruin them. And I hate it.

512
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: I hate keep having to rebuild platforms in new places.

513
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: I hate keep telling people find me here, find me here,

514
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: because it feels like we're all just chasing each other

515
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: around a school yard now with no kind of rhyme

516
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: or reason, trying to find each other, trying to play

517
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: tag to some extent, and it's just it's incredibly frustrating.

518
00:27:47,119 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: More after a quick break, let's get right back in it.

519
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 2: So you might have seen that people are doing this

520
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen throwback trend on social media right now. And

521
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: when I think back to twenty sixteen, what I remember

522
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: most is how angry I felt. I was angry watching

523
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: folks get killed in the street, angry watching abusers not

524
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: just get away with it, but a mass power. But

525
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't just me. That anger was everywhere, and it's

526
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: part of what helped spark movements like Black Lives Matter

527
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: and Me Too. Those movements gave people a way to

528
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 2: take that anger and turn it into something meaningful. Social

529
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: media made it possible for people to find each other,

530
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: to realize that you didn't have to be alone in

531
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: that anger. You could channel it into something that felt

532
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: like real change. There was this feeling that other people

533
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: felt the way that you did, and together, using the Internet,

534
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 2: you could actually build something. But now ten years later,

535
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: when I scroll social media, I don't know that I

536
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: really feel that anymore. Instead, I feel overwhelmed and also

537
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: weirdly disengaged at the same time, like I'm just screaming

538
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: about my rage and also dwelling in it and I

539
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: don't think that's an accident, because billionaires like Elon Musk

540
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 2: and Larry Ellison, TikTok's new owner, didn't just buy up

541
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: pieces of our digital media landscape at random. They understood

542
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: how powerful these platforms were, how good they were at

543
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 2: building real power, and just how important it would be

544
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: to control them. I think, especially right now, against the

545
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: backdrop of the very stuff that you were describing earlier,

546
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: of communities that are really under attack right now, immigrants,

547
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: transphots to your folks, I think back to a time

548
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: where these platforms were places that you could build a

549
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: voice and build a build real political and social power.

550
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: Like I don't have access to publishing an op ed

551
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: in the New York Times, however I might be able

552
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: to get enough Twitter followers. And I think about, like

553
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: all the different movements that were started on social media,

554
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: me too, Black Lives Matter. I wonder if part of

555
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: the reason why everything feels especially awful right now was

556
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: because those platforms have been so overtaken by these people,

557
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: and they've been tweaked in ways that make finding that

558
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: voice easy, and we're just sort of scrambling not I mean,

559
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 2: I'm speaking for myself, I'm sure there are people out

560
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: there that are still using those tools to build power

561
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: and shout out to them and speaking very much about

562
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: how I feel. I feel like I have so much

563
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: less of an understanding of like what are we all doing?

564
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: How do we organize online? We're like, where are we going?

565
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: Who's starting the hashtag? Whatever? I should say. I'm pretty

566
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: tapped in in my own neighborhood and community with offline

567
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: actions irl, So I know that online actions are not

568
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: like the end all be all, But I guess what

569
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,959
Speaker 2: I'm saying is the climate online just feels so different

570
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: than it did ten years ago, and it just feels terrible.

571
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: It does. And I do think that this is partially

572
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: by design, right, that there was a lot of grassroots

573
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: power that came from social media in the twenty tens.

574
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking back even like the Arab spring

575
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: back in like twenty ten, when I you know, a

576
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: bunch of Middle Eastern countries you were able to kind

577
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: of like push back on their political regimes through social media,

578
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: and we're able to kind of circumvent uh government, the

579
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: government through social media, and I do think, you know,

580
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: there again, there was a lot of good grassroots stuff

581
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: like you said, me too, just building collectives, finding like

582
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: minded people, refusing to shut up, right, and we had

583
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: that power, And I think that scares a lot of

584
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: people at that grassroots flower. Yet at the same time,

585
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: I do want to I always caution against Internet nostalgia because,

586
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: like the Internet was never good, right, you know, I

587
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: was like really harassed on Twitter for the first time.

588
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: I remember in like twenty fifteen, like we're like people

589
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: were like tweeting about my account and being like, go

590
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: bother her. She's like a stupid feminist PhD student. How

591
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: dare you say feminist stuff on the internet? Right, So

592
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: it's it's never been good. But I will say my

593
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: optimistic take, actually, I do have an optimistic take in

594
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: all of this, is that we are currently in a

595
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: moment that is the backlash to that utopian grassroots power

596
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: of social media of the twenty tens, where a bunch

597
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: of people are not happy with how marginalized individuals we're

598
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: able to get voice and power. I see that, you know,

599
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: we're very much in a backlash to me too. We're

600
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: very much in a backlash to body positivity, right with

601
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: like skinny talk and I had to say GLP ones

602
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: and all these things. So we are currently in a

603
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: pushback moment, but the pendulum always swings back, and so

604
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: I do believe. I don't know when. I can't tell

605
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: you when it's gonna happen, And that is of course

606
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: rather optimistic take because I know some people don't make

607
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: it to where the pendulum swings back. But the pendulum

608
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: does swing back, and that is the one thing I

609
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: do think about. When I'm able to see how it

610
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: has swung and swung back before that I know will

611
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: be there again. It just may take some time. So

612
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: you're optimistic about this, I kind of have to be,

613
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: because through all the horror and all how awful things

614
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: are and doing what I do for a living, I

615
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: would go crazy if I didn't have a sliver of

616
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: optimism because I mean, I average like fifteen hours of

617
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: screen time a day because I do this for a living, right,

618
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: My research is on social media. I'm connecting with people,

619
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: I'm watching trends, I'm watching posts. So yeah, it's absurd

620
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,239
Speaker 1: how much screen time I have a day. So I

621
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: actually but I have to actively choose to be optimistic

622
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: because man, it is really hard too sometimes. So how

623
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: do I try?

624
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: How do you balance. You know, this is your work,

625
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: your your body of academic study. How do you balance

626
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: the need to be online, which like, don't I know

627
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: it can be a flog with you, you know, having

628
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: a healthy outlook on things. How do you balance that?

629
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's a great question, and it's one I

630
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: don't think I'm perfect at by any means. But I'm

631
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: a big believer in like folders and books. So if

632
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: I'm having like my bedrot time at night and I'm

633
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: like scrolling threads and I see something, I'm like, oh,

634
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: that tickles something in my academic brain, it goes into

635
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: a bookmark, and then I look at it in business

636
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: hours again, so I'm not constantly thinking about I also

637
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: do I try to do a good job of curating

638
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: my algorithms. So right now it's all heated rivalry. Well

639
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: then it's just it's so fun and it just makes

640
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: me happy, so I try to do Sometimes I'll like also,

641
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: like on TikTok, I'll be like, oh god, I'm getting

642
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: too much like work stuff, and then I go and

643
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: search just like dogs, and I like lot my algorithm though,

644
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: I want to see all the TikTok pets, and then

645
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 1: I just get to watch your tektok pets and it's

646
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: it's great. So it's very deliberate. I joke, you know,

647
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: like my screen time and all of this is like

648
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: my occupational hazard of I just have to be online

649
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: all the time. I would never advocate for anybody to

650
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: be online as much as I am online. But yeah,

651
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 1: because it's hard, especially making content myself that is real

652
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: where you see some of the worst of people. People

653
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: really hate my glasses. If you're listening to this a

654
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: dnsanti social media preview. I have very thick black glasses

655
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: that I love. I think they're a statement to my face,

656
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: but people on TikTok hate them. I frequently am just

657
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: like told I'm the ugliest person alive or that like

658
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: somebody called my glasses birth control glasses, and so like

659
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: some girl even went so far one time to like

660
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: start sending me glasses I should buy instead. So it's hard.

661
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: It is very and honestly like becoming a creator myself

662
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: as opposed to just being an academic, Like I'm like, oh,

663
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: this is kind of terrible sometimes.

664
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: What made you want to take that leap to be

665
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 2: like I'm going to be somebody who has an academic

666
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: perspective and a body of research on social media, but

667
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: also a public face and creator.

668
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: God, that's a good question. Then sometimes I'm like, maybe

669
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: I should just quit. No, I should just quit. I've

670
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: always been really public about my work. I don't believe

671
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 1: knowledge in an ivory tower, or at least it shouldn't

672
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: to me. That's my view on it. So even on Twitter,

673
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: I was always very public. I kind of went viral

674
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 1: for the first time to talk about Bama Rush talk

675
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: because before my current job, I was a professor at

676
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: the University of Alabama for seven years, so I knew

677
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: that phenomenon very well. So that kind of I was

678
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: already doing a lot of media, and then that phenomenon,

679
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: like tweeting about that, like pushed me into a whole

680
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: other level.

681
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: TikTok.

682
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: I have a distinct memory of downloading TikTok at the

683
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: start of the pandemic like everybody else and telling my husband,

684
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: I will be making videos by the time this is over.

685
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: Sure enough, I was, But I think probably maybe twenty

686
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: two or twenty three, I really started making videos in

687
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: earnest just I was like, you know, I have something

688
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: to say and I have a perspective that isn't in

689
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: the conversation, and this is where people are, and if

690
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: I believe knowledge should be public, I got to go

691
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: where the people are.

692
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: And also it's just nice to have somebody who genuinely

693
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: knows what they're talking about on these platforms, in these

694
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: spaces educating people because like it's I think there's something

695
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: about tech and we were sort of getting at this

696
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: earlier where it is intentionally legally intentionally so long so

697
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 2: that people automatically see this and they're like, I'm out

698
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 2: reading this or worse, they think like I'm not a

699
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 2: tech person, what do I know about all this? I'll

700
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: just hit except and I'll never think about it again.

701
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: And I I think the work that of people like

702
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: you being on these platforms, having you know, accessible conversations

703
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: about this, it is really bringing so many people in

704
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: who I think they intentionally want locked out.

705
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: I hope, So, I really hope. So you know, somebody

706
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: even asked me in a comment on my video earlier today,

707
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: they are like, are you worried you're going to be

708
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: like banned? I'm like, girl, I'm band all the time.

709
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: I'm shadowed or not not essentially, but I'm shadow band

710
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: all the time whenever I critique. So I was always

711
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: shadow band on Twitter for even before Elon Musk, before

712
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: critiquing Twitter, I have been shadow band on reels. I

713
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: have been shadow banded on TikTok. So I'm like, this

714
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: is just another day in my life. Is being banned? Yes,

715
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: these platforms?

716
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, do you see these changes

717
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: at TikTok? Like I'm often loath to have these conversations

718
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 2: in ways they're framed as like like what does this

719
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 2: need for the business or whatever whatever, But I have

720
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: seen so many people vocally talking about how they're gonna

721
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: They're not They're never logging into TikTok again, do you

722
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: how do you see this impacting the platform long term?

723
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: TikTok has made some really interesting moves this week that

724
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: they and I don't think they're worried at all. So

725
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: first and foremost, they launched a new microdrama platform. Oh

726
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: god call it's called Pine something. I can't remember what

727
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: it's called right now, but so they are now moving

728
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: into original entertainment content. They have been. They have had

729
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: a huge showing at Sundance out of Park City, Utah.

730
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: Right now where they are really promoting entertainment first, advertising

731
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: and marketing on the platform, and they have also really

732
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: been pushing a lot of e commerce decisions this week.

733
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: So I don't think TikTok worried at all. Unfortunately, I

734
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: do think that to me, I see TikTok moving in

735
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: the way of an Amazon, especially because also if we

736
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: look at what TikTok is outside of the United States,

737
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: we look at it it's sister app du Yin, which does

738
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: operate in China. It is e commerce first. So I

739
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,439
Speaker 1: really see TikTok leaning into e commerce and entertainment, which

740
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: to me feels like they are fighting Amazon. They are

741
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,479
Speaker 1: gunning to be the next Amazon, and they have something

742
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: Amazon doesn't, which is a social media platform of content creators.

743
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: I'm waiting for Amazon to get their own content creative platform,

744
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: by the way, that is one thing I'm waiting for.

745
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: It hasn't happened yet, but I'm waiting for it. And

746
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: so I don't see TikTok that worried, and I think

747
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 1: it kind of goes back to again our complacency again,

748
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: even my own I don't read these things most of

749
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: the time myself, where a lot of people are going

750
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: to delete their cons Today, I do think there will

751
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 1: be a dip. A lot of people will log off,

752
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: but we'll come back. And me, I'm everywhere until the

753
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: lights go off for the most part, or until it

754
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: becomes pretty untenable to be on like it was with Twitter.

755
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: So unfortunately, I don't see too much changing for TikTok.

756
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: I actually think I see them getting more power, not less.

757
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: Oh I how how do I wish? I wish that

758
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 2: you had been like, oh, it's curtains for TikTok. But

759
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: deep down I knew, deep down, I knew you were

760
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: gonna say that. I haven't. I mean, I there was

761
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,439
Speaker 2: a time, especially in like the height of COVID, when

762
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: TikTok and me, like I was a little bit of

763
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: a late adopter to TikTok, and there was a time

764
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: where it was the platform where I was spending the

765
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: most time and the thing that got me off of it,

766
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 2: and I really it kind of broke the Habit was

767
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: when TikTok was briefly I guess i'll put it in

768
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: quotes banned, and then they came back and it was

769
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 2: like they had that little thing that was like thank

770
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: you to the Trump administration. For bringing you that shit

771
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 2: was too cute by a mile for me, and like

772
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: literally that for me personally, that was the day the

773
00:40:59,440 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: vibe shifted.

774
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: I was like, I am huge four I had.

775
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: I had kind of like cautiously respected the CEO of

776
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 2: TikTok because I was like always a younger guy. I

777
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 2: appreciated his comments when he was in front of Congress,

778
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 2: like I this is like I'm hearing myself say this,

779
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 2: So I'm like, this is exactly why you should never

780
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 2: start having warm, fuzzy feelings for a tech leader. But yeah,

781
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,919
Speaker 2: that really just shifted the vibe. But I never got

782
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: it back after that.

783
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: I know, I distinctly remember that as well. And that

784
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: was the dumbest fourteen hours in American social media history.

785
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: I mean it was so dumb. I was so mad,

786
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: and not even because I thought it was gonna go away.

787
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: It was just like this is all to me. It

788
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: was all performative and unnecessary and yeah, sodent. When I

789
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: got that message too, that was like thank you to

790
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: President Trump. I was like this, there's gonna be a deal.

791
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: They're going to figure it out, but I'm not gonna

792
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: like what happens on the other side. Of it and again,

793
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: so I mean the kind of updates that has been implemented,

794
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: even though again they're not necessarily abnormal, they are abnormal

795
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 1: because I don't like this presidential administration being this close

796
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: to a social media company.

797
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 2: Very very succinct summary. I guess I one of my

798
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: last questions for you, but you still have answered it.

799
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: Will you still use TikTok? Is you're not gonna You're

800
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: not being like I'm deleting it.

801
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will be there. I'll be there for a while.

802
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 1: I mean, over the past couple of weeks, I've already

803
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: tried to like migrate a little bit more to reels

804
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: and threads, just because I didn't know what was going

805
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: to happen to TikTok moving forward. Again, I will be

806
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: there for a little while, especially because it was kind

807
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: of this way with Twitter too. As an academic, I

808
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: have colleagues all over the world, and so sometimes those

809
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: are places to connect with them as opposed to other

810
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: social media platforms, because we have to remember the rest

811
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: of the world. It's having a very different TikTok experience.

812
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: Now it's fine for them. I'm jealous. I hope they

813
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: adopt me. I'm kidding. I love I love my I

814
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: love where I am, so yeah, I'll be.

815
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: There for a while. I think.

816
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: They're you know, I'll keep talking and trying to explain

817
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: things until I'm so shadow banned or actually banned that

818
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 1: I can't do it anymore. But I'm so sad. I

819
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: love my tech talk platform. I like it's been so fun.

820
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: And I teach a content creation class too to college undergrads,

821
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: and so I also feel like for teaching wise, I

822
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: need to be there, so we'll see what happens.

823
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 2: Well for folks who are deleting their app or thinking

824
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: about deleting their app, where can folks keep up with

825
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: you just across this disparate internet landscape that we now have.

826
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I am on threads and Instagram as Jessmatics twenty one,

827
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: I'm on substack at by the Way btw social, and

828
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: I am on blue Sky at just maadix, dot psguide

829
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: dot social.

830
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 2: Jess, thank you so much for being here. This has

831
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: been a delight. I really really appreciate it. Thank you

832
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 2: for breaking it down.

833
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me, and I hope everybody makes

834
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 1: smart and good social media decisions for themselves.

835
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

836
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: just want to say hi. You can reach us at

837
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 2: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts

838
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

839
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Toad.

840
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 2: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland

841
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

842
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,959
Speaker 2: sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

843
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 2: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

844
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: and review.

845
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 3: Us on Apple Podcasts.

846
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

847
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

848
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: You