1
00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:12,239
Speaker 1: We have the return. Every time a search warrant is

2
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,680
Speaker 1: executed in the US anyway, there has to be what

3
00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,239
Speaker 1: it's called a return on that return. You see what

4
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:25,480
Speaker 1: was actually seized during the search warrant. It's really like

5
00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,640
Speaker 1: a laundry list of everything taken from the home. Now,

6
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,800
Speaker 1: as all you league egals know, the judge had sealed

7
00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,360
Speaker 1: the search warrant. The problem will cause supporting the search

8
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:42,279
Speaker 1: warrant and the return for Brian Coburger's apartment there at

9
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,760
Speaker 1: step two village impullment, Washington. Guys, what do we know

10
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,920
Speaker 1: about that return? I mean, see Grace, this is crime Stories.

11
00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,200
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation

12
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,680
Speaker 1: and Serious X one eleven. Take a listen to this.

13
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,959
Speaker 1: The highly anticipated warrants continue details about what investigators were

14
00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,039
Speaker 1: looking for and what they found. It also alleges that

15
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,480
Speaker 1: Koeburger preplanned the ambush and had studied other murders in

16
00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,320
Speaker 1: how to avoid detection as part of his preparations. And

17
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,040
Speaker 1: affidavit seeking the search warrant reads quote, these murders appeared

18
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,440
Speaker 1: to have been planned rather than a crime that happened

19
00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,600
Speaker 1: in a moment of conflict unquote, because the victim's home

20
00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,680
Speaker 1: contained a significant amount of blood spattering cast off. Investigators

21
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,120
Speaker 1: told the court they believed they would find some of

22
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 1: that evidence transferred to Koburger's department. Once inside his apartment,

23
00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 1: police found what they were looking for in the search warrant.

24
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,679
Speaker 1: Officers say, based on the locations of the suspect vehicle

25
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,800
Speaker 1: and the suspect's phone immediately following the murders, it is

26
00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,840
Speaker 1: probable that Koburger went home after the killings, and it

27
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,000
Speaker 1: is likely that he still had blood or other trace

28
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,880
Speaker 1: evidence on his person, including skin cells or hair from

29
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,640
Speaker 1: the victims or from Kailee Gonsalves's dog. You are hearing

30
00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,520
Speaker 1: our friends at Crime Online and CBS News with me

31
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 1: and All Star panel to make sense of what we

32
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,160
Speaker 1: know right now. But I can tell you this much

33
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,160
Speaker 1: a few words in my mind, summit, all up, A

34
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:16,799
Speaker 1: stained pillow and a glove. Straight out to Laura Ingle,

35
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,040
Speaker 1: joining us senior correspondent Fox News Channel, Laura, tell me everything.

36
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,200
Speaker 1: As you mentioned. Finally we are getting this glimpse of

37
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,200
Speaker 1: what police were looking for that's listed in this unsealed

38
00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 1: search warrant and what they found. The list of items

39
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,880
Speaker 1: that investigators seized in the search of suspect Brian Coburger's

40
00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,480
Speaker 1: Washington State apartment include fifteen items. It was on the

41
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,799
Speaker 1: last page of the search warrant that we got yesterday.

42
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,680
Speaker 1: This search warrant was about forty nine pages long, and

43
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,640
Speaker 1: when you go through the list, you mentioned the glove

44
00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,560
Speaker 1: one nitrate type black glove, a Walmart receipt with one

45
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,640
Speaker 1: Dickey's tag. Remember the suspect described by DM By Dylan,

46
00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,120
Speaker 1: the surviving roommate, said she saw somebody dressed head to

47
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,480
Speaker 1: toe in dark clothing. Dicky's has dark clothing. We know

48
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,000
Speaker 1: that two marshals receipts dust container from a vacuum, eight

49
00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,080
Speaker 1: possible hairs. One of those hairs is a possible animal hairstrand.

50
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,640
Speaker 1: As we know, Kayley consolves the victim. One of the victims, Murphy,

51
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 1: her dog was in the home at the time, a

52
00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,760
Speaker 1: computer tower, and a collection of dark red spots without testing.

53
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,959
Speaker 1: Now the stuff hasn't been tested without the other part

54
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,919
Speaker 1: that we're waiting for. Right once they test those hairstrands,

55
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,480
Speaker 1: once they test these dark red stains both on this

56
00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,720
Speaker 1: uncased pillow and the bottom of a mattress cover that

57
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,640
Speaker 1: was packaged and labeled. Put in a chain of custody,

58
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 1: everything labeled with evidence. But look, we saw right all

59
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,400
Speaker 1: that video of the investigators coming out of Brian Copoger's

60
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 1: apartment in Washington States, tubs and tubs, boxes, boxes, and

61
00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,920
Speaker 1: bat So this list that has those fifteen items is

62
00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,760
Speaker 1: most likely just a very small sample of what they

63
00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,600
Speaker 1: were covered, but it is at least what they told

64
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,520
Speaker 1: us that they have to substantiate the search warrant. And

65
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,320
Speaker 1: then also within the search warrant was a list of

66
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 1: what they were looking for. The long list, but the

67
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 1: highlights include they were looking for blood, human tissue, knives, sheaths,

68
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,200
Speaker 1: sharp tools, daggers, swords, and anything that had sales or

69
00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:25,600
Speaker 1: pieces are and specifically also any images digital or on

70
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,520
Speaker 1: paper of the victims and or the house at eleven

71
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,400
Speaker 1: twenty two a road, looking for dark clothing, and looking

72
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,680
Speaker 1: for data compilations, and of course you know, as we

73
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 1: heard there that report they also say, is this search warrant.

74
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,240
Speaker 1: They alleged that Copeger planned the ambush rather than this

75
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,800
Speaker 1: happening in a moment of conflict, and also noted that

76
00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,080
Speaker 1: he had studied other murders and how to avoid detection

77
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,880
Speaker 1: as part of this preparation. And remember a search warrant

78
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,200
Speaker 1: has to be very specific. You can't have a judge

79
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 1: sign a warrant where the cops says, well, we just

80
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 1: want to go fish around, see fun finding thing. That is,

81
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:13,240
Speaker 1: while you're hearing Laura Ingle, clearly detail what cops say,

82
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 1: they're interested in, what they hope to find Specifically, a

83
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,000
Speaker 1: judge will never sign off on basically a fishing expedition

84
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,880
Speaker 1: where you have no idea what you're looking for. Guys,

85
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,359
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Dave mack. In requesting

86
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,040
Speaker 1: the search warrant, it was pointed out that quote the

87
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,160
Speaker 1: King Road residence contained a significant amount of blood from

88
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,200
Speaker 1: the victims, including spatter and cast off, a bloodstained pattern

89
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,960
Speaker 1: resulting from blood drops release from an object due to

90
00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,920
Speaker 1: its motion, making it likely that this evidence was transferred

91
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: to Coburger's person, clothing, or shoes. Based on the locations

92
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,760
Speaker 1: of the suspect vehicle and the eight four or five

93
00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,960
Speaker 1: eight phone immediately following the murders, it is probable that

94
00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 1: Cooburger went home to his residence at sixteen thirty Northeast

95
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,320
Speaker 1: Valley Road at that time. It is likely that he

96
00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,520
Speaker 1: still had blood or other trace evidence on his person, clothes,

97
00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,839
Speaker 1: or shoes, including skin cells or hair from the victims

98
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,520
Speaker 1: or from Gonzalva's dog. Said here in the studio with

99
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:19,600
Speaker 1: me went along on our expedition where we went from

100
00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:25,599
Speaker 1: the crime scene there on King Road on the circuitous route,

101
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,760
Speaker 1: and Cheryl McCollum man, I wish he'd been in the

102
00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,039
Speaker 1: suv with us. There were times it takes takes of

103
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,039
Speaker 1: an hour and ten minutes to get home that way,

104
00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,520
Speaker 1: or it took us that long dark like where you

105
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,719
Speaker 1: and I grew up in the country, no street lights,

106
00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,960
Speaker 1: pinch dark, couldn't see the road. A lot of the

107
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:50,200
Speaker 1: road was dirt or gravel, so bumpy that it would

108
00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,080
Speaker 1: make everybody in the suv shape up and down. That's

109
00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,840
Speaker 1: so bumpy. He took that route for a reason what

110
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,960
Speaker 1: should have been a ten minute drive. That is why

111
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,800
Speaker 1: what's in that car is so significant. But I was

112
00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:10,200
Speaker 1: thinking about, as Dave Mack read from the warrant, all

113
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,480
Speaker 1: the spatter at the scene, the cast off a blood

114
00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,120
Speaker 1: stained pattern resulting from blood drop's release from an object

115
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 1: due to its motion, in other words, the stabbing motion

116
00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:27,120
Speaker 1: and the pullback of the knife for another stab, making

117
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 1: it likely this evidence was transferred to Coburger's person, clothing

118
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,440
Speaker 1: or shoes, and that based on what they could tell

119
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,480
Speaker 1: from his cell phone. He then gets into that white

120
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,760
Speaker 1: Elantra and sets off for the long drive that Sydney

121
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,840
Speaker 1: and I made just the other night. Nancy, that cast

122
00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 1: off is not only going to land on his clothing,

123
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,080
Speaker 1: It's going to land on his face. It's going to

124
00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 1: land in his hair, on his arms, if his hands

125
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,680
Speaker 1: had the nitrate gloves, so to speak, but his wrist

126
00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,400
Speaker 1: in his arms, it is going to be so easy

127
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,360
Speaker 1: for that to transfer when he pulls his clothing off,

128
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,280
Speaker 1: when he lays on the bed from exhaustion, whatever. All

129
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,440
Speaker 1: of those things are just this natural progression of how

130
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,680
Speaker 1: the Lockhart principle we talk about all the time, from

131
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,840
Speaker 1: one scene to another it is transferred. You can't go

132
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,880
Speaker 1: in a scene or leave a scene without taking something

133
00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 1: and leaving something. You're hearing Cheryl McCallum, forensic expert, founder

134
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,080
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her

135
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 1: at Cold Case crimes dot org and very important. She

136
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:37,360
Speaker 1: is a forensics expert still working the force also with me.

137
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:44,920
Speaker 1: Giovanni Massuchi, Senior digital forensic examiner, thirty five years of experience,

138
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,520
Speaker 1: Giovanni follow up with Cheryl, what do you think of

139
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,680
Speaker 1: what she said? He's absolutely right on that as far

140
00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:57,880
Speaker 1: as as trace evidence blood splatter, and we're bringing something

141
00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 1: into the site and onto the site. Believe her on that.

142
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:07,840
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting to Giovanni and Cheryl A lot

143
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:13,000
Speaker 1: of times perps and crime scene texts not you two,

144
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:18,680
Speaker 1: of course, miss blood high up on the wall or

145
00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 1: on the ceiling. Forget to look up now what a

146
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,800
Speaker 1: tragedy that would have been, for instance, in the Ted

147
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:32,200
Speaker 1: Bundy case, because the ceiling blood spatter showed the exact

148
00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:38,320
Speaker 1: trajectory of the blood from the bludgeoning of the girls exactly.

149
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,560
Speaker 1: They could even get a pretty good idea, if not

150
00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,440
Speaker 1: the exact idea of the amount of force Bundy used

151
00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,560
Speaker 1: when he hit his victims based on the degree of

152
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,480
Speaker 1: blood and the way it's spattered on the ceiling. What

153
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,600
Speaker 1: about that, Cheryl? Yeah, not only did it show the force,

154
00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 1: but for me, when I first walked into a scene

155
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,720
Speaker 1: like that, tail by the number of cast offs that

156
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,959
Speaker 1: are on the wall, in the ceiling, how many times

157
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,480
Speaker 1: that victim was stabbed. So if I've got four cast

158
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 1: off patterns, the victim was stabbed at least five times

159
00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,960
Speaker 1: because the first time the knife was clean first time,

160
00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:20,680
Speaker 1: then you pull the knife, back stab again, back stab again,

161
00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:26,000
Speaker 1: back stab again. That's what she's talking about. So why

162
00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:32,120
Speaker 1: use nitrate gloves as opposed to rubber gloves or plastic gloves. Nitrate,

163
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:38,040
Speaker 1: water pref grease prices, oil prief and most importantly chemically resistant.

164
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,080
Speaker 1: Now with their care proofs, that's the most important thing.

165
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,280
Speaker 1: That's right, very good point. I'm hearing the voice of

166
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,160
Speaker 1: Dale Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former

167
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,400
Speaker 1: FED with the FBI. Jump in, go ahead, you know,

168
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,400
Speaker 1: talking about the magic Carrol. I will just tell you

169
00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:01,559
Speaker 1: can also determine the dominant hand of a striker often

170
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,959
Speaker 1: and the heights of the striker. So when when that

171
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,600
Speaker 1: first came out back in the nineteen eighties, it was

172
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:15,199
Speaker 1: classified FBI material. We were told not to disclose that

173
00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 1: technique to anyone. And now it's become pretty much mainstream.

174
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,199
Speaker 1: And if you could quickly, if there is a way

175
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 1: to do it quickly explain how you determine the height

176
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,360
Speaker 1: of the based on these markings. Well, it's all coming

177
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 1: from armlink. To just draw a circle from one point

178
00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,560
Speaker 1: to a swing to a swing with your shoulder and

179
00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,280
Speaker 1: your arm extended, and you go back to a common

180
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,960
Speaker 1: point that's the shoulder socket. And then you can guess

181
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,840
Speaker 1: at the heights of the individual when you do those

182
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,839
Speaker 1: sort of things, where they standing, where they're sitting. There

183
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,520
Speaker 1: are all sorts of technical abilities that they have with

184
00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,440
Speaker 1: that effort now that we're just unheard of forty years ago. Yeah,

185
00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 1: you're right, guys. Take a listener. More from Dave Mack.

186
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,400
Speaker 1: Court Documents released by Whitman County show what evidence investigators

187
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,760
Speaker 1: were looking for when they searched Coburger's residence and his office.

188
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,760
Speaker 1: They were searching for any blood, bodily fluid, or skin cells.

189
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 1: As for weapons, they searched for any knives, sheets, or

190
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 1: other sharp tools. They also searched for any digital or

191
00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,600
Speaker 1: paper images of the victims or the King Rode House.

192
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,440
Speaker 1: They look for clothing, including but not limited to, dark shirts,

193
00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,679
Speaker 1: dark pants, masks, or shoes with a diamond pattern soul.

194
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,280
Speaker 1: Investigators also sought any digital evidence linking him to the victims,

195
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,959
Speaker 1: the King Rode House, or any data compilations showing an

196
00:12:41,960 --> 00:13:00,400
Speaker 1: interest in murder crime stories With Nancy Grace, you know

197
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:05,560
Speaker 1: it's so dense, Laura ingle. I mean, I've had to

198
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,079
Speaker 1: read this several times. And I remember in law school, Laura,

199
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,760
Speaker 1: this is reminding me of that. I came from being

200
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,680
Speaker 1: a Shakespeare in Literature major, and I'd read a sentence

201
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,240
Speaker 1: in a US Supreme Court decision that was almost a

202
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,600
Speaker 1: whole paragraph, and I would actually have to dissect the sentence.

203
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,560
Speaker 1: And when I look back at my criminal law book,

204
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,280
Speaker 1: which is huge and thick, there are watermarks on so

205
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,200
Speaker 1: many pages because I'd have to study so much. I

206
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,440
Speaker 1: would even study in the bathtub, just reading constantly. And finally,

207
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,400
Speaker 1: at one time, I'm like, okay, this is going too far.

208
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 1: I studied on the back row of church one night.

209
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,800
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, this has got to start. This is

210
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 1: something is wrong about this. I don't know what it is,

211
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,120
Speaker 1: but my point is, did you just hear Dave Mac

212
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:55,480
Speaker 1: reading that. I mean, it's just so shot full of

213
00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:01,080
Speaker 1: so much evidence, listen, I mean legal aspects. Investigators also

214
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,440
Speaker 1: sought digital evidence linking him to the victims, right data

215
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 1: compilations showing an interest in murder, digital or paper images

216
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,720
Speaker 1: of the victims or the King Roadhouse. Clothing, including but

217
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,200
Speaker 1: not limited to, dark shirts, dark pants, mask or shoes,

218
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,680
Speaker 1: with a diamond pattern soul to hopefully match back up

219
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,040
Speaker 1: to the diamond pattern soul mark in the home. Every

220
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:33,640
Speaker 1: sentence here is just an explosion of information, Laura Ingle,

221
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,120
Speaker 1: that's right. And when you go through that list of

222
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 1: what they were looking for, you mentioned the data compilations

223
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,760
Speaker 1: and the plan that he was. They were looking for

224
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,880
Speaker 1: any data compilations of the planning of murder, but also

225
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:51,440
Speaker 1: specifically murder, violent assaults, stabbing, and or cutting of people.

226
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 1: And they were looking for an example of ledgers, papers, lists, books,

227
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 1: those letters, calendars, addressed books, contact lists, diaries, tapes, photographs, videos, emails,

228
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 1: text messages. They were looking for cell phones. They were passwords, phrases, codes, patterns, fingerprints,

229
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,320
Speaker 1: user names to operate any of those devices. They wanted

230
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,600
Speaker 1: the devices. They wanted to see if he had written

231
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,360
Speaker 1: down any of the passwords so they can get into

232
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,080
Speaker 1: those electronics. And you're right, it is very dense. They

233
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,840
Speaker 1: were very specific. And when you think about how a

234
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 1: search warrant is executed, I was speaking to a former

235
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,160
Speaker 1: NYPD officers yesterday, and tell me how you go in.

236
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,680
Speaker 1: He said, well, we get the warrant, we have the list,

237
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,560
Speaker 1: then your methodical going room by room. You've got the

238
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,800
Speaker 1: person who's actually looking for the items on the list.

239
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,960
Speaker 1: Then you've got the other police officer next to you.

240
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 1: We're recording how it's going down, but they're watching it.

241
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,440
Speaker 1: They're recording it. They are writing their own log of

242
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 1: how they're obtaining this evidence and ormation. We've talked about

243
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 1: the chain of command, how they're sealing it up, how

244
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,040
Speaker 1: they put their initials on it. There is a lot

245
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 1: more that we are going to learn. This is the

246
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 1: search warrant of this apartment. We've learned to find much

247
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,320
Speaker 1: or if anything in his office. You've got to get

248
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,240
Speaker 1: to the search warrant of the car that will hopefully

249
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,120
Speaker 1: be revealed soon. But this list of the apartment, you're right,

250
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 1: it is very dense and tells us how ridiculous they were.

251
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,440
Speaker 1: And you look at you look at the time stamp

252
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 1: on page one styled January third. Remember what we were doing? Yes,

253
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,480
Speaker 1: and less just happened. They had quickly put together exactly

254
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 1: what they wanted to find in this apartment, and they

255
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 1: found a good amount. What I want to know is

256
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,080
Speaker 1: you got to come back. Did he leave? There's the

257
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,560
Speaker 1: house abandoned, the apartment abandoned, which is an other indition

258
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,960
Speaker 1: of guilt because of the flight issue, and I as

259
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 1: you coming back. I mean you can look at their

260
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,040
Speaker 1: food in the refrigerator. All the kinds of things will

261
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,200
Speaker 1: give you an idea of where we intended to come back.

262
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 1: Del Carson speaking Dell Carson. You know, as I always say,

263
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,479
Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.

264
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,359
Speaker 1: He went straight back to school as if nothing had changed.

265
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,879
Speaker 1: He participating in classes. He texted his neighbor that I

266
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,040
Speaker 1: talked to Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. Active

267
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 1: said nothing was wrong, So I would venture to extrapolate

268
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,359
Speaker 1: he was coming back as if nothing had happened, also

269
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 1: with us. Chris mcdonno, director of the Cold Case Foundation,

270
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,199
Speaker 1: former homicide detective worked over three hundred homicides. Host of

271
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:44,200
Speaker 1: the Interview Room on YouTube, Chris, one thing I always

272
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 1: like to do during searches or when I would visit

273
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 1: a crime scene, it's just sit down. There's nothing to

274
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 1: sit on. Just stand there quietly and think if I

275
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 1: wanted to hide something in this room, where would I

276
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 1: hide it? And just sit there while everybody else is

277
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: going cray on everything and taking pictures and measurements and

278
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:18,040
Speaker 1: finding stuff to just sit and think, think calmly about

279
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 1: everything you might miss. What about it, Chris, I'm a

280
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 1: side one on one Nancy. They where you take in

281
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:33,640
Speaker 1: each wall independently. And if we look at this return here.

282
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,119
Speaker 1: Yesterday we talked about there's going to be a huge

283
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 1: push for digital footprint. We're starting to see that today.

284
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: But what we're missing here is there are stix locations

285
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 1: where these individual hairs were discovered. In one location there

286
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 1: were eight of them, and then in the others there

287
00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 1: was an animal hair, another possible hair, Item eight, item nine,

288
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:07,120
Speaker 1: Item ten, Item eleven. These are six locations where these

289
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:12,720
Speaker 1: hairs were discovered and they were transferred from something or somebody,

290
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 1: either the crime scene as Cheryl has talked about, the

291
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 1: sushback or the victims, but somebody caught each of these

292
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,959
Speaker 1: hairs independently. The other thing that we see is very interesting.

293
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 1: Here are the receipts items number two and three where

294
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 1: this guy had gone out, it appears, and purchased items

295
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 1: pre planning. Something's going on here with that, and we

296
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 1: see a new discovery I think it's on page eighteen,

297
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,119
Speaker 1: where he was caught on video at a chef's store

298
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:54,880
Speaker 1: at least passing a chef's store near the coffee area

299
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 1: where after the homicides he drove out there. So those

300
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 1: minute detail are starting to flow just as just as

301
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,160
Speaker 1: you've predicted. And then we've talked about here on your show, Sydney.

302
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 1: Do you remember when we were out in Idaho and

303
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 1: a woman came up to us and she was talking

304
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 1: about his route back home and that he would have

305
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,640
Speaker 1: crossed over was it the Red Bridge, red Wolf Bridge? Yeah, yeah,

306
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: that was it, red Wolf Bridge, That's it. And she

307
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 1: was talking about how he had passed a chef's store

308
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 1: and a coffee shop. That was the grocery store trip exactly.

309
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking back about that chef's store and

310
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 1: what type of cutlery and knives were sold there. Hey,

311
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,199
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah, don't worry, beff, I'm coming right to you.

312
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,360
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah speaking of a black glove, Sydney just reminded

313
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: me of this a black glove I think that was found. Yes, ma'am,

314
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:03,199
Speaker 1: what about the one black glove that you found that

315
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,440
Speaker 1: you spotted and pointed it out to a cop at

316
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: the scene, at the crime scene. It's certainly going to

317
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 1: be interesting. I couldn't tell what specific makeup the glove

318
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 1: was because they had had snow and looks like some

319
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 1: leaves over it. You could definitely see the fingers tips,

320
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 1: but I could not tell if it was consistent with

321
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: the type of materials that they have listed in this

322
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 1: return church warrant affidata. So it's going to be interesting, yeah,

323
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall with US high profile psychoanis joining us

324
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: out of LA She's at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com

325
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: and she is the star of a hit series on Netflix,

326
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 1: Bling Empire. Doctor Bethany, I want you to take a

327
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at KAT and I want to

328
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: talk to you about the blood on Kay Burger's Hello Listen.

329
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 1: Investigators searched his apartment on December thirtieth, the same day

330
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: he was arrested at his parents home in Pennsylvania. According

331
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 1: to that search warrant, investigators found and confiscated a number

332
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: of things, including a synthetic rubber black glove, several possible

333
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 1: hair strands both human and dog, two cuttings from an

334
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 1: uncased pillow with a reddish brown stain, as well as

335
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: two mattress covers package separately with multiple stains. Police also

336
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: searched Coburger's teaching office at Washington State University, but the

337
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 1: records show they did not take anything. In the search warrant,

338
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: there was a mention of how items such as blood

339
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: or hair could be transferred from the crime scene to

340
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: Coburger and end up back in his car or at

341
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 1: his apartment. Investigators located a possible animal hair strand. Now

342
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: remember Kaylie Gonzalva's dog was at the home the night

343
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: of the murders. They also found three possible hairs and

344
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: a possible hair strand. They collected what could be blood,

345
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 1: as there was a reddish round stain on an uncased pillow,

346
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: as well as multiple stains on a top and bottom

347
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 1: mattress cover. Doctor Bestany, I've been thinking a lot about

348
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: what we believed to be a blood stain on his pillow,

349
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: Coburger's pillow on his bend. Do you remember just a

350
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: day or two ago, photos came out of Coburger in

351
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 1: court and he had cuts all along his right jaw

352
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: and we were told it was from shaving. So if

353
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: you want to believe the blood, the potential blood on

354
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: his pillowcase was from shaving, that would mean he had

355
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: to shave before he went to bed, which really doesn't

356
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: make any sense, doesn't That makes no sense at all, Nancy.

357
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 1: You know, this was a very bloody crime scene, and

358
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: obviously the victim's supposed to have fought back. Even though

359
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 1: it was a surprise attack, it was a crime of opportunity.

360
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: He attacked them in their sleep, you know, instinctially they

361
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: were reactive, and it could be that even in the frenzy,

362
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: he caught himself with his own knife. It's a little

363
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: scary to speak up in front of this panel of

364
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: crime scene investigators. But I have a different way of

365
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: looking at this as a mental health expert, and that

366
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: is through the lens of Coburger's fantasy life. We're looking

367
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: at a thin slice of history here, the night of

368
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: the crime, the months proceeding, the week or two after

369
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: the crime. But I know that serial killers in the

370
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: making have prolific fantasy lives. They eat, sleep, breathe homicide.

371
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: That's all they think about. So his apartment is likely

372
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: going to be organized around his fantasy life, just like

373
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 1: a kid who's obsessed with dungeons and dragons is going

374
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 1: to have that kind of equipment all over their room,

375
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 1: or an alcoholic is going to have let's see tequila

376
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: bottles all over the apartment. What does the sear killer

377
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,479
Speaker 1: do in the making, If indeed my theory is correct

378
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: that he was a serial killer in the making, he

379
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: botched his first crime. We know that the reason they

380
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: strike and then they go underground for months at a

381
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: time before they strike again if they can feed off

382
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: of their own fantasy life. And that means that that

383
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: digital imprint, what he was looking at online, what he

384
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: was reading maybe even a pattern of semen around the household,

385
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: is he's looking at different images and using it to

386
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: fuel statistic sexual fantasies. That that is a dark, underground

387
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: layer that I don't know if crime scene investigators look at,

388
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: but I'm sure that leads an imprint too. I was

389
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: just thinking about what you said, doctor Bethany, And I

390
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: remember when I was not doing Dancing with the Stars,

391
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: I managed to wiggle into a couple of celebrities homes.

392
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: They had trophies everywhere, pictures of themselves and fancy artwork

393
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: and beautiful and weird sculptures that I didn't know what

394
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: they were. Then at our home, everything is covered in

395
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: pictures of the twins and our family, and you know

396
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: tacky little chotchkey from wherever we've visited. You know that's right, Nancy.

397
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: In the Bundy case, you know, he drew and drew

398
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: pictures of himself in various costumes with broken arms or

399
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: arms in a sling, and it was he was very

400
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: good at that, and those were drawn prior to the attacks.

401
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: And so what doctor buft he is saying is entirely accurate.

402
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: Those individuals live in a world that most of us

403
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: cannot understand because they are driven by a powerful biologic urge.

404
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: So you add that to your fantasy, and you've got

405
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: somebody who's a real animal. And you know, charyln cullum

406
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: with me, Oh, I was just coming to you, I

407
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: would Laura, I want to circle back with you about

408
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: the cutlery. Don't let me forget Laura Ingle. You're the

409
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: ringmaster today. Cheryl McCollum, remember in the District Attorney's office

410
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: what my office like? On the inside there were two

411
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: very old were they money prints? And then everything else.

412
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: I remember there was a sawed off shotgun from a

413
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: crimes like that big. There was a huge blow up

414
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: that I'd used for a jury. Don't touch the al

415
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: ram this is a robie from my dyslexic bank robber

416
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: who then when he did his writing sample, he also

417
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: did the writing sample with the letters reversed, so that

418
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: did not take a writing handwriting expert to win that

419
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: jury trial. So I was lucky about his handwriting, and

420
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: just all sorts of weird, bizarre memorabilia, things that had

421
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,239
Speaker 1: come from cases years back that had already gone up

422
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: and affirmed on appeal. Do you remember that I was

423
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: thinking about what Bethany said. Now I find that really insightful, right,

424
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: And it's something we talked about weeks ago. When we

425
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: use the analogy of somebody playing a wedding, it's all

426
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: they can think about, all they can look at, or

427
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: dresses and cakes and flowers and venues. They can't help

428
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: themselves and they can't hide it. And that's why I

429
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: thought he would have maps on the wall and photographs

430
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: and he would have this stuff lay out, because this

431
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: is what he wants. I've said multiple times it's porn

432
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: to him. He can't get enough of it, whether it's

433
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: doctor Ramsen's class, whether it's something online he's researching, whether

434
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: it's something he's putting together at home, and he's putting

435
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: on the clothes and practicing. I'm telling you he has

436
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: not hidden this in any way possible. And I want

437
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: to say again, remember that doctor Ramslin. They did not

438
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: make him. He went because of what he already was. Hey, Cheryl,

439
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: I just want to do Do you remember when that

440
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: sawd off shotgun came from that I had in my office?

441
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: A guy convicted on two rapes goes to the penitentiary

442
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: on a rape, does seven years, He gets out, and

443
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: what does he do? He gets a sawt off shotgun.

444
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: As soon as he leaves the jail, flags down a

445
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: lady like he needs help with a car, and he

446
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: kidnapped certain rape sir day one the day he got

447
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: out of jail. Within hour, Yes, within hours, he Nancy, Yes,

448
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: jump in. I'm sorry, Laura Angle, please blame it on

449
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall again, go ahead, mass okay, BTK killer didn't

450
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: he have like a red legateech outfit self sitting on

451
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: a chair all bound up. He had all these pictures

452
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: of himself in various BDSM styles of dress, and he

453
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: would look at these pictures. So it wasn't just that

454
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: the blood the crime, It was all these pictures. He

455
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: left behind and including on the disc that he sent

456
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: to the pastor of the church. There's some credible re

457
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: search that pedophiles when they're discharged, when they're released from jail,

458
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: are more primed to offend because they've been living in

459
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: their fantasy world while they're in prison, and it's sort

460
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: of a sexualized fantasy world, so it actually increases their

461
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: propensity to go out and look at victim. I've got

462
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: to tell you something, doctor Bethany, have no idea what's

463
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: happening while you're talking, Cheryl. This is a yes note.

464
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: Do you remember the beautiful court reporter that was the

465
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: murdered in the courthouse shootings, of course, Julie Julie and

466
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: then my other favorite court reporter, Miss Donna Keeble. I

467
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: was looking at Sydney here in the studio whenever doctor

468
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall starts talking, and other times, and I'll never

469
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: forget how Donna Keeble and Julie as Evotts would come

470
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: out during testimony. They would make all sorts of faces

471
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: and yeah, and Jie will be looking at them too,

472
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,719
Speaker 1: and the defendant would get up in say some bs

473
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: on the stand that role and they joy me looking

474
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: right at them, and Nastany Marshall said, BTK and his

475
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: red latex suit. I wish you could have seen. I

476
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: thought her hand was going to just fly off. But

477
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: it reminded me of my corboards time stories with Nancy Grace. Okay,

478
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: Laura Ingle, don't anybody say a word while Ingle is talking?

479
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: Hit me, Laura. Two things here, Well, we had our

480
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: guests mentioned the US chef Store that was part of

481
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: the route was along the route on the way home,

482
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: so obviously he didn't go there that day if he

483
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: has ever been to the store. But when you go

484
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: to that website, the US chef Store that's located in

485
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: Clark's Washington, next to that Kate's Cup of Jill play,

486
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: look at the thing that you can buy there. There

487
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: are many fixed blade knives that you can buy. And

488
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: we've all we've been talking about the k bar, we've

489
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: been talking about military hunting stores. But when you go

490
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: to that chef Store website, you do see that there

491
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: are the dynamic Chef's knife ten inches long, it forged

492
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: eight inch knife. These are huge knives, but would they

493
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 1: have a hilt? Look at well, look at the photos

494
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: for me, Laura Ingle, because there's something about the bodies.

495
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: Giovanni Massuchi, Senior Friends examiner, thirty five years in the business.

496
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,239
Speaker 1: They came out at the get go and said, and

497
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if this is because of the marks left

498
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: on the bodies that they believe the victims were murdered

499
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: with a military style type knife, fixed blade, which would

500
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: suggest it had a hilt. And I don't recall any

501
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: of our kitchen knives having a hilt, but I am

502
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: not a knife expert. I can't claim that. What about it, Giovanni,

503
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: Because of the way that the type of blade is made,

504
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: at least type of indentation on the bonny, so they're

505
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: looking at that as well, and what can come from

506
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: the blood splatters were on it. But the way that

507
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: the handle is made, the way that the blade is forged,

508
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: gives some kind of indication on the markets, and so

509
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: that's how they're they're able to determine between whether the

510
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: just a kitchen knife or a heavy grade knife or

511
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: military blade, or whether it was not fixed if it

512
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: wasn't a lock blade or military grade. And you know,

513
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: Laura angele, I do put a lot of store in

514
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: I've compared it to forensic dentistry because flesh, you know,

515
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: when you're analyzing by it marks and human flesh, flesh moves,

516
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: so you can't really get a slight Trying to take

517
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: a teeth mold for the orthodonist in Jella, you're not

518
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: going to get a good print, right. So I don't

519
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: know that there really was a hilt, you know, we

520
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: just we don't know, right because the item has not

521
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: been discovered. But when you look at you know, we

522
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: don't know if he went to this. I'm sure that

523
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: investigators have gone into the US chefs store. Yeah, and

524
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: we'll find out about that later. When you look at

525
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: a chef's knife overview, you see that it has a

526
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: blade and an edge and a heel and what's called

527
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: the bolsters. I'll just the anatomy of a chef's knife.

528
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: Is it possible? Sure? Another thing I want to bring

529
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: to your attention is I don't have this. I haven't

530
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 1: talked to this person, but the Daily Mail is reporting

531
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: that one of a girl that he went to school

532
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: with Brian Coburger in sixth grade. The FBI has reportedly

533
00:34:53,800 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: interviewed this lady, kim Neelie, and she was his middle

534
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: school crush and FBI reportedly has interviewed her because he

535
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: developed a crush and began romantically pursuing her and she

536
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: rebuffed him. And a lot of we've heard that a

537
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: lot of former classmates have been interviewed. These classmates are

538
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: describing Coburger as a chubby, awkward misfit. But what's important

539
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: to note here is one of the former students, a

540
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: third former classmate noted in this article, says, it's interesting

541
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: to me that the girls and he was made fun of.

542
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: Everybody here says that the popular girls, the cheerleader literally

543
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: tortured him. Girls started making fun of him in middle school,

544
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: and then when he seemed to turn his life around

545
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: in high school and he started boxing and lost weight,

546
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: he was a totally different person. But they described him

547
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: as someone with a short fuse, constantly trying to change

548
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: his style and personality. And then this third former classmate

549
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: says this, it's interesting to me that the girls he's

550
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: accused of killing or nice looking and seemingly popular, much

551
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: like the ones that made fun of him throughout his childhood. Okay,

552
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: I know right where to go with that. That's doctor

553
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, John Pan Bethany Well What comes to mind

554
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: is the as I talked about so many times, stalkers

555
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: that they take like little bits and pieces of a connection.

556
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: Maybe they just see an image of somebody or a

557
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: high school or walking down the hallway, and they fantasize

558
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: an entire relationship with that person, and then because that

559
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: person's not responding, that person may not even know that

560
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 1: he existed. Then they get stuck in these profound feelings

561
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: of rejection, which then give with a crush on this teacher, Nancy.

562
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: Isn't it kind of creepy that everyone knew about it?

563
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: I mean, both high school and middle aged boys have

564
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: crushes here and there, but nobody knows about it. So

565
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: it tells me how obsessional this guy was. And you know,

566
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: the idea that girls i've in one report actually throw

567
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: things at him, that that's how much they didn't like him,

568
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: means that his creepy, obsessional, stock rish nature it was

569
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 1: kind of just exuding out of every pore. This wasn't

570
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: a guy that was for hiding in plain sight look

571
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: normal and oh he just snapped and nobody knew about it.

572
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: There were clues all the way leading up here. So

573
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: we're going to know so much more as this trial

574
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: gets underway. Dell Carson final thought, well, I think they've

575
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: done a really good job of doing that search warrant.

576
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: They'll find much more evidence than was listed on that return.

577
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and we're going to learn that that air

578
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: is connected with something connected with a cranching anti Givanni Masucchi,

579
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: senior digital forensic examiner, what do you make of the

580
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: computers and digital data they took from the apartment. I

581
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: was excited to see that they wrote to search warrant

582
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: doccelent I used to reduce search warrants to law enforcement

583
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: and help them with the digital data to make sure

584
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: they had a right if they weren't going back to

585
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: the judge two or three times, which the judge does

586
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: not like. But firestick, I was excited to see that

587
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: because that can be gail broken and with a genil

588
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 1: Ho compire stick you can answer you want an internet

589
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: with you social media, So there's potential evidence that they

590
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 1: can pull from that. Also. Computer tower, Oh my gosh,

591
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: from um you know everybody was talking about you'd expect

592
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: to see it at his apartment, you know, pictures and

593
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: so on. Well, guess what you can have digital pictures

594
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 1: on there you can have, you know, all this data

595
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: of him collecting potential evidence on the four, you know,

596
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: because I mean it's so seemed that was pre planned obviously,

597
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: and so in my opinion, and so you know, the

598
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: data that could been collected on there, Oh my gosh,

599
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: unbelievable amounts of evidence potential on as they can find

600
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: from that computer tower and both the fires. You know,

601
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: another thing I was just thinking about regarding photos and

602
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: digital photos of what would be in home. The neighbor

603
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: told me when he glanced into Cobroker's apartment, it was

604
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: very very sparse, Okay. Chris mcdonna joinings the col Case Foundation.

605
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: Final thought. I believe Nancy, at this point it's going

606
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: to continue to emerge that this guy had many weird

607
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: encounters with women over time, and probably many underlying fetishes

608
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: will will produce themselves, and that I still am going

609
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: with the idea that he believed he was the deliverer

610
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: of justice, and that as these women come forward and

611
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: the digital evidence starts to present his personality a little

612
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: bit deeper, it's not going to surprise me one iota

613
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: that he had a contact point within that digital footprint

614
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: of these four victims, at least one of them in

615
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: that home, and that drove him to that home. I'm

616
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: going to talk about the totality of this evidence. So

617
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: when you look at the house where the crimes occurred,

618
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: his apartment, his car, his digital footprint, his debit card

619
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: where he made purchases and payments, the cell phone not

620
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: just pings and calls and takes us, but people keep

621
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: notes on their phone and photograph. But I'm going to

622
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: go to the animal hair. This suspected alleged killer did

623
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: not have a pet. If that comes back to be

624
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: Murphy Kayley's dog, that is a money tree. And they're

625
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: going to be able to take the DNA from that

626
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: hair and match it straight to that dog. And I'll

627
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: tell you two reasons. Not only is the DNA from

628
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: the actual hair, but dogs groom themselves by licking. That

629
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: means that hair's got double the DNA on it. That's

630
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: going to be a money tree. It's Yeah. When we

631
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: hear or Laura Ingle reporting the facts and our awesome

632
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: experts analyzing them picking them apart, sometimes some people can

633
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: forget that we're talking about Kelly Madison, Zanna and Ethan.

634
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: I'm not forgetting goodbye friend,