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Speaker 1: I get everybody on Dan Horden.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for downloading the Bengals Booth Podcast.

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Speaker 1: The super free, super free.

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Speaker 2: Addition, as I pose five questions to the mutant Bengals

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Speaker 2: rookie Chris Jenkins. Plus Can't Lee Platt, the guy who

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Speaker 2: invented relative athletics score discusses the freakiness of this year's

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Speaker 2: draft class, and finally, I'll talk to a quarterback who

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Speaker 2: is back on the Bengals roster six years after being

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Speaker 2: drafted by Cincinnati. The Bengals Booth Podcast is brought to

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Speaker 2: you by pay Corps, proud to be the Bengals official

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Speaker 2: HR software provider, by Ulta Fiber, future proof fiber Internet

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Speaker 2: designed to elevate your home, business, and community to a

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Speaker 2: new level, and by Kettering Health the best care for

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Speaker 2: the best fans. Kettering Health is the official healthcare provider

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Speaker 2: of the Bengals. Now here's a quick reminder that you

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Speaker 2: can have the latest edition of this poto delivered right

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Speaker 2: to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts. It's the greatest thing since Howard denneroff.

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Speaker 2: On Wednesday, it was announced that Howard is leaving Westwood

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Speaker 2: One Sports after being the executive producer of its national

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Speaker 2: radio broadcasts for roughly thirty years. So if you were

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Speaker 2: in your car and couldn't be in front of the

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Speaker 2: TV for part of a Super Bowl or the Final Four,

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Speaker 2: or the Masters, or the Kentucky Derby or the Olympics,

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Speaker 2: and wound up listening on the radio, chances are Howard

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Speaker 2: was in charge of the broadcast. I don't know of

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Speaker 2: anybody in any walk of life who does his or

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Speaker 2: her job better. Howard's knowledge, attention to detail, and ear

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Speaker 2: for what makes a great broadcast and broadcaster is simply unmatched.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what he plans to do next, but

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Speaker 2: any company would be fortunate to higher Howard Denaroff. Now

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Speaker 2: let's get to football. Last week on this podcast, I

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Speaker 2: posed five questions to first round draft pick of Marius Mims, where,

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Speaker 2: among other things, we learned that he hasn't surrendered a

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Speaker 2: sack since he was a junior in high school. That

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Speaker 2: was five years ago. I told him, Marius, we'd all

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Speaker 2: be perfectly happy if he averages one sack allowed every

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Speaker 2: five years in Cincinnati. Now time for another round of

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Speaker 2: five questions with the team's second round selection, a defensive

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Speaker 2: tackle out of Michigan with a fantastic nickname. Time for

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Speaker 2: five questions with second round draft pick Chris Jenkins. Question

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Speaker 2: number one is, Bengals fans have now learned your nickname

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Speaker 2: is the Mutant, which is a fantastic sports nickname. What

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Speaker 2: did you think the first time you heard it? And

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Speaker 2: is there a better sports nickname than the Mutant?

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Speaker 3: So, you know, my sophomore year, that's when our head

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Speaker 3: strength coach, Coach heard gave me that nickname. And this

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Speaker 3: is before I earned my stripes. I've really proved myself

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Speaker 3: on the team, so you know, getting that from him

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Speaker 3: when I first heard it, you know, I was kind

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Speaker 3: of starshucking the moment. I was kind of shocked, and

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Speaker 3: then the whole team embraced that before I feel like

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Speaker 3: I really embraced it. And you know, ever since I

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Speaker 3: got that nickname, you know, I just tried to embrace

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Speaker 3: what people saw in me and just get that right back.

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Speaker 2: And then so Mamba Magic, I mean, does anything compare?

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Speaker 2: Is there anything that you think, all right, that one's

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Speaker 2: even better?

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Speaker 3: I think no, I think the Mutant definitely up there.

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Speaker 3: But with that, with such a cold nickname, that just

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Speaker 3: means I have to be that much colder on the field.

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Speaker 1: I like it all right.

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Speaker 2: There's a guy that puts out a freak list every

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Speaker 2: year before the college football season, supposedly the top one

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Speaker 2: hundred athletic freaks in college football. You were in the

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Speaker 2: top ten prior to last year. And one of the

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Speaker 2: things they showed, which is some video that's now like

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Speaker 2: making the rounds on the internet, it's called the Turkish

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Speaker 2: get up that you did with one hundred seven tventy

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Speaker 2: pound dumbbells. I didn't even know they existed at one

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy pounds. Describe the Turkish get up?

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Speaker 3: Well, the Turkish get up, you know, it's really like

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Speaker 3: a full body movement. It's a full body lift. You know,

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Speaker 3: you start with it, you're holding you know, one hundred

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Speaker 3: and seventy or one hundred and seventy pounds, you know,

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Speaker 3: on a single arm and start off, but you got

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Speaker 3: to use your core to push up off the ground.

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Speaker 3: You got to be able to stand up with it

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Speaker 3: all the way off the ground and then get back

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Speaker 3: down with it without without it fall and without losing

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Speaker 3: track of it. And you know, that's really something where

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Speaker 3: before I really came to the Canda, Michigan. I didn't

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Speaker 3: even know I could do, let alone do that much

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Speaker 3: amount of weight, So, you know, and really, those dumbells

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Speaker 3: get to about two ten and I've yet to break

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Speaker 3: the record there yet. But really I'm trying to get

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Speaker 3: I really won't feel satisfied until I could at least

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Speaker 3: get to some completely unheard of I want to break

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Speaker 3: the limit the heaviest dumb bell if I could do

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Speaker 3: it with it.

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Speaker 1: Oh heck yeah, all right.

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Speaker 2: For people that haven't checked it out, look up Chris Jenkins, Turkish,

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Speaker 2: get up.

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Speaker 1: You will be impressed. Question number three.

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Speaker 2: You were the captain on a national championship team last

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Speaker 2: year with the Wolverines. They just released them video sometime

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Speaker 2: in the last week or two of your national championship

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Speaker 2: rings and what they're going to look like. I assume

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Speaker 2: you've seen that. What'd you think and what other swag

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Speaker 2: do you have? Did you save from the national championship?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no rings. When we saw them, they're beautiful, man,

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Speaker 3: The Rose Bowl ring, it is honestly the best, to

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Speaker 3: be honest, is beautiful. But you know, finally getting those rings,

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Speaker 3: seeing them and putting them on, man, it was just

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Speaker 3: having that jip. You know that's what you worked for

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Speaker 3: and having that and to be honest with you, don't

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Speaker 3: got no other jet really from the natty you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't got I really don't. I'm not that joypy

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Speaker 3: in general. So that's what makes the rings that much better.

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Speaker 3: That's why we got to get more and more and more,

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Speaker 3: as many as possible.

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Speaker 1: So you've actually had the ring. It wasn't just video.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, we got the rings. We got the rings

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Speaker 3: right now, all four of them, all four of the

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Speaker 3: beautiful rings, right where they belong.

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Speaker 1: Nice. Okay, I didn't see that.

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Speaker 2: Question Number four for Chris Jenkins, your coach at Michigan

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Speaker 2: was Jim Harbaugh. Tremendous coach now with the LA Chargers,

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Speaker 2: but famously quirky.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a best Jim Harbaugh story?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? I think I want to say his really, his

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Speaker 3: workout stories are the best stories for me because you

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Speaker 3: wouldn't expect it, like say, whatever you're wearing now, whatever

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Speaker 3: I'm wearing now plus a polo plus a cap khakis.

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Speaker 3: He's he's working like that at six am. It don't

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Speaker 3: matter if we're getting in the if coach, our strength

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Speaker 3: coach told us to get in the cold top submerge,

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Speaker 3: you know, as a mental test before we do a workout.

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Speaker 3: He would do that in the khakis and a polo

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Speaker 3: before not working at it. Both like, that's that's his

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Speaker 3: type of versity, and that's what we fell in love with,

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, being at Michigan because you know

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Speaker 3: you're gonna you're gonna.

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Speaker 1: Do that cold top in the khakis. Absolutely, that is fantastic.

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Speaker 1: I wish there was a video of.

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Speaker 2: That on the end ofnet all right, fifth and final question,

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Speaker 2: tell us something about you that not many people know.

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Speaker 3: Really probably not a lot of people know, But I'm

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Speaker 3: an anime lover. I'm really just a nerd in general,

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Speaker 3: huge nerd, Like I got comic book collection at the crib,

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Speaker 3: you know that I've had since I was like young,

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Speaker 3: in like a ten year old. So you know, when

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Speaker 3: I'm off the field, I'm really just like i'd say,

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Speaker 3: like a giant dork and a big football jock's body.

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Speaker 3: Like me and me on and off the field are

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Speaker 3: kind of two completely different people. But at the same time,

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Speaker 3: you know, like it's yeah, I'm just I'm just a

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Speaker 3: nerd for real, for real, legos all that.

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Speaker 1: Oh my kid, loves lego.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember former NFL defensive lineman Mike Daniels, mostly

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Speaker 2: of the Packers, a little bit with the Bengals, Absolutely,

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Speaker 2: a little bit.

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Speaker 3: If I'm if I'm not mistaken, I think he might

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Speaker 3: have played with my uncle for the time.

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Speaker 2: Well, I bring it up because he was a huge

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Speaker 2: anime guy. So you're not the only NFL defensive tackle

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Speaker 2: who loves animating.

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Speaker 3: Okay, No, that's what's up. Nah, that's what's up. Then

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Speaker 3: we definitely gonna have to collab at some point on anime,

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Speaker 3: you know, at least in the off season, at least

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Speaker 3: when we know you feel me during in season. We

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Speaker 3: gotta we gotta take our business.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: The mutant is off the hot seat. I appreciate your time.

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Speaker 2: Look forward to gtting to know you better.

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Speaker 3: Yes, appreciate you. Thank you for having me, Thank you

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Speaker 3: very much.

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Speaker 2: So the Turkish get up is not the only evidence

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Speaker 2: that Chris Jenkins is a physical freak. His forty yard dash,

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Speaker 2: broad jump, and then press numbers were all graded as

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Speaker 2: elite by a guy that many of you have undoubtedly

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Speaker 2: heard of, Kent Lee Platt, the inventor of raz Or

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Speaker 2: relative athletic score that takes many of the things that

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Speaker 2: are measured at the combine like height, weight, forty times,

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Speaker 2: vertical leap, etc. And combines them to form one number

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Speaker 2: on a scale of one to ten. Jenkins RAS score

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Speaker 2: was eight point nine to nine, which is very high

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Speaker 2: for a defensive tackle. I caught up with Kent this

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Speaker 2: week to discuss his work and what it tells us

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Speaker 2: about the Bengals. Can't you are described on the internet

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Speaker 2: as a map chunkie and a football nerd?

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Speaker 1: Is that accurate?

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Speaker 4: That's very accurate. That's what I go for.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: So give us a description for how our as relative

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Speaker 2: athletic score came about.

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Speaker 4: So I started rasback in twenty thirteen. This was the

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Speaker 4: Leveon Beld. It wasn't just Leveon Bell, but he was

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Speaker 4: kind of the catalyst, like that turning point that really

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Speaker 4: made me want to go through with doing something about it.

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Speaker 4: But at the time he had run a four to

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Speaker 4: six in the forty yard dash and the entire argument

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Speaker 4: about him going into the draft that year was about

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Speaker 4: how unathletic Leveon Bell was and I just did not

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Speaker 4: It just didn't track with what the data actually said.

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Speaker 4: And I'd been looking at the data for a while,

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Speaker 4: so I knew that, but just the fact that that

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Speaker 4: was the whole argument was he ran a bad forty.

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Speaker 4: He's unathletic. You're talking about the guy that was two

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Speaker 4: hundred and thirty pounds as a running back, and he

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Speaker 4: had a six seventy five to three cone, which is

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Speaker 4: one of the better three cones you can possibly get

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Speaker 4: for any physician, let alone a two hundred and thirty

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Speaker 4: pounds running back. So the idea that we use all

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Speaker 4: those terms that don't really mean anything if they don't

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Speaker 4: have any context behind him. I wanted to add a

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Speaker 4: little bit of that context. So I developed a system

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Speaker 4: that puts all of those testing numbers on a zero

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Speaker 4: to ten scale compared to the player's position group, dating

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Speaker 4: back all the way back into nineteen eighty seven until

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Speaker 4: the player draft year. Everything is stop light color coded again,

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Speaker 4: because it's easy, it's accessible. The intention is that anybody

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Speaker 4: can look at these scores and kind of understand what

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Speaker 4: they mean and what they're for. And it's been a

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Speaker 4: lot of fun and I feel like people have enjoyed

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Speaker 4: it so far.

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Speaker 2: There's no questions that fans enjoy it. Have you gotten

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Speaker 2: feedback from NFL teams.

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Speaker 4: So NFL teams all have their own dedicated analytics departments,

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Speaker 4: They've got their own teams of personnel, they have access

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Speaker 4: to data that we will never have access to. What

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Speaker 4: RAZ provides is a useful analog to what a lot

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Speaker 4: of the NFL teams are using. It's similar to what

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Speaker 4: they use and close enough for some teams that it's

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Speaker 4: virtually indistinguishable. I do talk to scouts fairly regularly, and

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Speaker 4: usually for them when they're coming to me for data,

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Speaker 4: it's just like, hey, I want to see if these

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Speaker 4: two guys are comparable, or hey, can you check and

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Speaker 4: see how many guys fell within this range for forty

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Speaker 4: yard dash at this weight or something like that. It's

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Speaker 4: usually little requests like that. Because I have such good

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Speaker 4: data availability, it's easier to get at my data than

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Speaker 4: a lot of the teams still have. But generally they

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Speaker 4: all have their own stuff that they've been using for years,

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Speaker 4: and this is just similar enough to it.

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Speaker 2: And it seems to me that fans are most interested

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Speaker 2: in RAS in association with the draft. Is that the

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Speaker 2: case for you or are you using it now in

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Speaker 2: other ways as well?

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Speaker 4: I use it for all kinds of stuff outside of

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Speaker 4: not even just the draft, but the NFL, NFL players,

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Speaker 4: college college players that are going to the NFL. They

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Speaker 4: don't really need guys like me to advertise for them,

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Speaker 4: right they don't. They don't need me to go out

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Speaker 4: there and talk about how athletic these guys are. Everyone knows.

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Speaker 4: Everybody can watch it. They're going to get talked about

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Speaker 4: for months leading up to the draft. I do some

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Speaker 4: work with high school students that are trying to get

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Speaker 4: into college. Those guys don't get any anybody to advocate

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Speaker 4: for them. There isn't really a good way to propose

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Speaker 4: or to show the kind of testing that they have.

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Speaker 4: I've been working on that for a couple of years

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Speaker 4: and have made some pretty good headways in doing that

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Speaker 4: and using the metrics in a way that kind of

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Speaker 4: helps high schole students get their names out there. But generally,

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Speaker 4: when it comes to the stuff that's for that's that's

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Speaker 4: like public facing. It's all draft stuff and just looking

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Speaker 4: at neat trends. I mean, I'll do stuff at free

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Speaker 4: agency and other times of the year just because it's fun,

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Speaker 4: Like it's just fun to do that. Does it really

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Speaker 4: matter what a guy tested? Eight nine years ago, but

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Speaker 4: when he came out of the drafts on his second

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Speaker 4: free agency period. No, no, it doesn't matter at all.

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Speaker 4: But it's still fun, you know, it's always good to

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Speaker 4: look back on that stuff and see what's up.

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Speaker 2: We're going to get to the Bengals here in a second.

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Speaker 2: But are there positions where RAZ judges success best and

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Speaker 2: others where it doesn't.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, tight end is always the one that we bring up.

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Speaker 4: It has one of the cleanest correlations to success for

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Speaker 4: any position, just because it's just one of those positions

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Speaker 4: where you've got to be athletic to win. Every other

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Speaker 4: position has at least one player who has found success

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Speaker 4: in the NFL just despite testing poorly. Tight end doesn't

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Speaker 4: have that. Since since the year two thousand, there's only

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Speaker 4: been one player who had a poor RAZ at tight

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Speaker 4: end who still found reasonable success in the NFL, and

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Speaker 4: it was Jordan Reed, who barely qualified for RAZ because

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Speaker 4: of injury, which was ultimately the story of a good

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Speaker 4: portion of Jordan Reid's career. But every single tight end

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Speaker 4: since the year two thousand has been either a well

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Speaker 4: above average athlete or an elite tier athlete. And you

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Speaker 4: see that every single year. Anytime that guys come out.

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Speaker 4: It's never a good sign on a tight end test poorly. Consequently,

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Speaker 4: you look at the other side and you have guys

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Speaker 4: like our positions like quarterback, where a lot of the

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Speaker 4: skills that make a good quarterback aren't what we're testing

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Speaker 4: with the drills that go into RAZ. If a quarterback

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Speaker 4: is a pocket passer, pretty much none of those metrics

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Speaker 4: are going to matter. You can argue that the cone might,

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Speaker 4: you can argue that the shuttle might, but generally those

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Speaker 4: drills don't really mean a whole lot for the success

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Speaker 4: of a quarterback. While the math says that there's a

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Speaker 4: correlation with center, I've found that there's a lot of

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Speaker 4: NFL centers who have tested poorly and still found NFL success.

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Speaker 4: I generally chalked that up to being just a more

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Speaker 4: cerebral position. You know, you're paying attention more to what

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Speaker 4: a guy has north of the neckline than the general athleticism.

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Speaker 4: The math still tells us that there's a strong correlation there,

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Speaker 4: but there's enough guys that have tested poorly and found

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Speaker 4: success that it's notable to look at that position a

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Speaker 4: little differently.

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Speaker 2: Our guest is Kent Lee Platt. He is the creator

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Speaker 2: of RAS Relative Athletics Score, and he is a great

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Speaker 2: X follow at math bomb. Yes math bomb, you can

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Speaker 2: see his data online as well at rasis dot football.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a look at the Bengals draft class, beginning

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Speaker 2: with their first pick, number eighteen, overall offensive lineman A

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Speaker 2: Marius Mims. He had an Elite RAS score of nine

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Speaker 2: point five nine on a scale up to ten. After

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Speaker 2: the pick, you sent out the following tweet, I'm very

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Speaker 2: happy for Bengals fans as their team took their first

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Speaker 2: Elite RAS offense linemen in a decade. This seems to

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Speaker 2: be something that you've been following for a while where

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Speaker 2: the Bengals are concerned.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not just the Bengals. The overall athleticism on

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Speaker 4: the offensive line was a big deal for me when

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Speaker 4: I first started RAZ because I'm a Lions fan. I

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Speaker 4: follow the Lions. That's my team, and the Lions had

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Speaker 4: one of the least athletic offensive lines in the NFL

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Speaker 4: for for years and years and years, and right around

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Speaker 4: there with them was the Bengals. They were also there

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Speaker 4: with a very unathletic offensive line. The Lions eventually got

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Speaker 4: away from that. They switched general managers they changed their

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Speaker 4: focus a little bit when it came to drafting athletes

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Speaker 4: on the offensive line, but the Bengals never did and

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Speaker 4: it bled into their free agency signings. The type of

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Speaker 4: guys they brought into free agency, it's like they were

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Speaker 4: actively avoiding anyone who could move. And I've had a

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Speaker 4: lot of good laughs. I have a lot of friends

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Speaker 4: that are Bengals fans, and I've been doing this for

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Speaker 4: a while and we've had a lot of really good

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Speaker 4: laughs joking about just how extreme it was, because it's

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Speaker 4: not a small difference. I mean, they're they're on average

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Speaker 4: like three or four points lower on a scale of

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Speaker 4: zero to ten, like three or four points lower than

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Speaker 4: the next worst team in general. So they just just

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Speaker 4: an extreme outlier in that regard. But they drafted a

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Speaker 4: couple of guys in this draft class, and coming from

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Speaker 4: what they've been doing for the last decade and seeing

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Speaker 4: them finally change that has got to be a little

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Speaker 4: bit of a breath of fresh air.

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Speaker 2: So you're right, there's seventh rounder Matt Lee also had

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Speaker 2: a very high eras score. Have you found historically that

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Speaker 2: the higher rated offensive lines in terms of rushing yard

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Speaker 2: sacks allowed, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Have higher RAS scores.

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Speaker 4: Generally, it's more it's a better indicator of individual performance

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Speaker 4: than it is group. Anytime you look at an average,

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Speaker 4: especially when you only have a couple of a couple

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Speaker 4: of numbers, right so there's only five players on an

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Speaker 4: offensive line, one bad score can really throw off the average,

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Speaker 4: so overall looking that you don't really see that. Now,

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Speaker 4: as far as a general trend, two of the teams

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Speaker 4: that are generally add or near the top are the

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Speaker 4: Chiefs and the Eagles. Those are generally very good teams

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Speaker 4: and they usually have good offensive lines. The Indianapolis Colts

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Speaker 4: have been up and down with their offensive line performance,

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Speaker 4: but they're consistently one of the highest athletic offensive lines

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Speaker 4: in the NFL. So there are some general trends that

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Speaker 4: we can get from it, but we also know that

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Speaker 4: it has to do a little bit with scheme as well.

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Speaker 4: A few years ago, when the Raiders had a good

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Speaker 4: offensive line, that wasn't a very athletic offensive line, but

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Speaker 4: they were also very power heavy. They were all about

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Speaker 4: those big people movers that can just bully people around.

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Speaker 4: So it was very much a schematic choice for them

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Speaker 4: to do that. And when you have teams that follow

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Speaker 4: what the Eagles have been doing for the last fifteen

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Speaker 4: or twenty years. They've been doing it for a long time,

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Speaker 4: and you're trying to find those guys that have all

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Speaker 4: that athleticism. They can move, they can pull along the

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Speaker 4: offensive line. It just opens up a lot of what

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Speaker 4: you can do. Statistically speaking, its correlates better the further

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Speaker 4: on the outside of the offensive line that you are.

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Speaker 4: Tackles have a bigger correlation than guards. Guards have a

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Speaker 4: bigger correlation than center. But you just want athletes when

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Speaker 4: you can get them.

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Speaker 2: So if the Bengals have not historically drafted offensive lineman

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Speaker 2: with high RAZ scores, what about other positions historically?

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Speaker 4: I know that they've they've they've went up and down

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Speaker 4: for wide receivers, but kind of at the extreme. So

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Speaker 4: Jamar Chase was one of the most athletic wide receivers

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Speaker 4: of all time. But then you have guys like T

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Speaker 4: Higgins who didn't test all that well. I actually had

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Speaker 4: a whole thread on t Higgins before he was drafted

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Speaker 4: about how you know, RAZ is really good at at

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Speaker 4: identifying general trends, but there's certain players who have a

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Speaker 4: style of play where it doesn't necessarily illustrate what they're

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Speaker 4: good at. We saw it with Ceedee Lamb, we saw

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Speaker 4: it with Calvin Ridley. We've seen it with my favorite one,

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Speaker 4: An Kwan Bolden, who you know, for An Kwon Bolden,

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Speaker 4: it didn't matter that he wasn't fast or explosive or quick,

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Speaker 4: because if the ball was in the air, it was

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Speaker 4: his football and you had to beat him for it,

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Speaker 4: and most of the time you were losing that fight.

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Speaker 4: You know. With t Higgins, he mostly used his length.

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Speaker 4: He was very adept at boxing players out by using

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Speaker 4: his body and using that control that he had over

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Speaker 4: his size and his length to do a lot of

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Speaker 4: the work for him. It doesn't matter that he didn't

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Speaker 4: run a great forty times because he's not a burner

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Speaker 4: that's trying to outrun everybody. He's using his body and

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Speaker 4: his size to get rid of people. As long as

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Speaker 4: he's not slow, you're fine. And he isn't slow. You know,

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Speaker 4: he tested decent with speed, So sometimes it doesn't really

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Speaker 4: matter as much. If you're looking at the style of play,

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Speaker 4: the Bengals have primarily paid attention to defensive guys on

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Speaker 4: the defensive side, or sorry athletic guys on the defensive

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Speaker 4: side of the ball. They haven't really paid as much

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Speaker 4: obviously the offensive line, and then I said they mixed

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Speaker 4: it up a bit both at running back and at

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Speaker 4: wide receiver. They've done that, so mostly they they paid

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Speaker 4: attention to defense, which could just be keeping up in

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Speaker 4: division because the Steelers have done the same thing, the

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Speaker 4: Ravens have done the same thing, and you really can't

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Speaker 4: let yourself fall behind in a competitive division.

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Speaker 2: So that's a very good segue into my next question,

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Speaker 2: because one member of this year's draft class had a

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Speaker 2: very poor ras score, and that is three hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty six pound nose tackle McKinley Jackson, the second of

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Speaker 2: their two third round picks. But you tweeted that his

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Speaker 2: score is fine for a nose tackle.

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Speaker 1: Why.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So the ras US is traditional NFL positional alignments,

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Speaker 4: which it means the defensive tackles but not nose tackle

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Speaker 4: and defensive end but not necessarily edge, which kind of

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Speaker 4: puts us a little bit behind. And I am working

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Speaker 4: on updating that a little bit, modernizing a little bit,

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Speaker 4: But when it comes to nose tackles, you're kind of

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Speaker 4: just looking at the overall testing and saying is this

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Speaker 4: guy such a terrible athlete that he can't stand there

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Speaker 4: and push guys around. You know, nose tackles don't need

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Speaker 4: to run well. They don't run forty yards. They don't

436
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 4: even run ten yards most plays. They don't need to

437
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 4: be quick or agile. It's great if they are. See

438
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 4: all these things are bonuses if they have them, But

439
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 4: they don't need to be a quick and agile guy

440
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 4: if you're a nose tackle, because that's not how you're

441
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 4: moving on a football field. So it doesn't matter if

442
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 4: you don't test well there. When you have a nose tackle,

443
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 4: you want them to weigh a good amount. Obviously they're big.

444
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 4: Size is a big deal for them. He weighs three

445
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,879
Speaker 4: hundred and twenty six pounds over ninetieth percentile for a

446
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 4: defensive tackle. That's great. You got the weight, you're good.

447
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 4: You want them to be strong. He had a twenty

448
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 4: four bench, which is kind of average, but he's got

449
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 4: longer arms so that an average bench is perfectly fine.

450
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 4: You would prefer that they have a good broad jump.

451
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 4: Bigger guys that can propel themselves forward quickly and with

452
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 4: a lot of power. That's a big bonus when you

453
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 4: have a guy that's playing on the defensive line and

454
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 4: nose tackles that can do that. That's a lot of

455
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 4: weight to move forward with, so even having it just

456
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 4: above average broad jump is important, and he did for that,

457
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 4: and then of course the ten yard split for the

458
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 4: exact same reason. You want a guy that can explode

459
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 4: out of his stands and use that lower body power

460
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 4: to provide force for the rest of his body. He

461
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 4: can do that just fine. McKinley. Jackson didn't test well

462
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 4: as a defensive tackle. He's not an interior pass rusher.

463
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter that he didn't well test well for

464
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 4: the same way it doesn't matter that he didn't test

465
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 4: well for a receiver. He's not playing that position.

466
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: Let's hope not now.

467
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 2: One player that really stood out to me in terms

468
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: of his RAS score was the Bengals' second sixth round pick,

469
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 2: edge rusher Cedric Johnson. He's a little undersized six three

470
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 2: two sixty but had a thirty eight inch vertical ran

471
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 2: a four to six three forty. Is that exactly what

472
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 2: a team should be looking for in a late sixth

473
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 2: round pick. Somebody with measurables like that, quote unquote, A

474
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 2: potential diamond in the rock.

475
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 4: Absolutely, especially for guys late pass rushers, and I mentioned

476
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 4: tight ends earlier on the other side of the ball,

477
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 4: that's defensive ends. Those are the types of guys that

478
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 4: fall into that category. You want those elite tier athletes.

479
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 4: And I've posted threads on it every year about the

480
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 4: top sack artists in the NFL, and it is rare

481
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 4: that we have a guy with below average testing. It's

482
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 4: rare that we have a guy with below elite testing

483
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 4: who becomes a double digit sack guy in the NFL.

484
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 4: You generally want from a broad perspective, not looking at

485
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 4: play style or anything. You want a player that tests

486
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 4: really well for agility, and Johnson didn't test well for agility.

487
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 4: But that's a broad assumption. Right Again, these positional alignments

488
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 4: are not perfect. They're based on pretty outdated concepts. If

489
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 4: you have a defensive lineman who is very explosive. You

490
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 4: mentioned his vert which was ninety six percentile. He has

491
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 4: an almost ninetieth percentile broad jump as well, so very

492
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 4: good testing from an explosiveness standpoint, and then he has

493
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 4: that speed. That's a guy that can burst off the line.

494
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 4: He can use that lower body explosiveness and get off

495
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 4: out of his stance very quickly, and he can get

496
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 4: up to speed quickly, which is great for pursuit trying

497
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 4: to get after the quarterback. Those are all translatable skills,

498
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 4: things that you see on a football field. So having

499
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 4: traits in that area means there's something there you can develop,

500
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 4: something you can work with. Smart teams recognize that and

501
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 4: pay attention to it.

502
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: Our guest has Kent Lee plapped the creative Relative Athletics score.

503
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 2: You can and should be following him on x at

504
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: math bomb. He shares a lot of great data and

505
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 2: it's free. Give us your overall impressions of this year's

506
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: draft class. We've obviously covered a few of the guys,

507
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 2: but how about the Bengals class top to bottom.

508
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 4: So I already mentioned that I'm very excited that the

509
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 4: Bengals are taking a step forward in terms of their

510
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 4: offensive line. From an overall athletic standpoint, I think they

511
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 4: ranked twenty twenty fourth. There's not a lot of separation

512
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 4: when you're ranking, and like this same reason I mentioned

513
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 4: before for averaging, it's small numbers in your averaging, so

514
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 4: there's not going to be a huge huge difference overall,

515
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 4: but generally they went for really strong athletes, and the

516
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 4: guys that they took that weren't elite athletes had some

517
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 4: elite traits. Tanner McLachlan from Arizona there I think that

518
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 4: was another six or seventh round pick. Didn't have elite agility,

519
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 4: which is what kept his score from being above that

520
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 4: eight elite mark, but he has great speed. You want

521
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 4: a guy that can run up the seam cool he's

522
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 4: he's got that trade, he's a thing. There's a thing

523
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 4: that he can do at an elite level that provides

524
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 4: an opportunity for the team to use him to contribute.

525
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 4: Not everybody's going to be an All star, and you

526
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 4: shouldn't expect them all to be All pros. But if

527
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 4: you can contribute from day one, or have those developmental

528
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 4: traits that you can contribute long term, then the team

529
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 4: can find value for you rather quickly. And getting guys

530
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 4: with strong athletic traits, even if it's specialized in areas,

531
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 4: is very smart. It's a very very wise way to

532
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,719
Speaker 4: approach the draft. Guys that don't test well, they've got

533
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 4: to have something else to make up for it. They've

534
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 4: got They're going to be going up against guys that

535
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 4: are way more athletic than them, so they've got to

536
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 4: have some other trait that sets them apart. The Bengals

537
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,239
Speaker 4: very much just avoided having to make decision with their

538
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 4: class this year. They didn't take anybody where they'd have

539
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 4: to go, Okay, well is this guy going to be

540
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 4: an exception? They don't need to worry about it. They

541
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 4: didn't take any exceptions. They just took a bunch of

542
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 4: really good athletes and called it a day.

543
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 2: How do the Bengals compare to their opponents in the

544
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 2: AFC North the Steelers, Ravens, and Browns.

545
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 4: So the Steelers, I know, have been trying to get

546
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 4: a little bit more defensive on there, are a little

547
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 4: bit more athletic on their defense. They've they've had a

548
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 4: few a few weaker picks on that side of the

549
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 4: ball over the last few years and they've been trying

550
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 4: to make up for it. They've generally gotten better there.

551
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 4: The Browns have been a little bit up and down

552
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 4: with some of that stuff, but they've overall been pretty

553
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 4: analytics focused for several years. I mean, they went through

554
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 4: what fourteen GMS or something like that. Eventually something had

555
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 4: to stick right, But generally they kind of looked at

556
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 4: the Ravens are always a difficult team to evaluate because

557
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 4: they're they're so they have such a different approach to

558
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 4: talent evaluation than any other team in the NFL. So

559
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 4: sometimes they will take big, big swings on guys with

560
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 4: lower athletic testing. They didn't really do that this year.

561
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 4: They tended to focus on on athletes, so did the Browns,

562
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 4: so did the Steelers. Overall, the conference as a whole

563
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 4: and the division as a whole spent a lot of

564
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 4: time trying to find those those top athletes, and that

565
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 4: means it's competitive. That means that you're fighting with people

566
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 4: who are looking for the same thing. So they're they're

567
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 4: all trying to get a bit more fast, a bit

568
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 4: more explosive.

569
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: Looking at the Bengals current roster andre Yosi, Bosh had

570
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 2: the highest RAZ at nine point nine to six, which

571
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 2: makes sense since he is a world class heptathlete. I

572
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 2: imagine that was kind of a fun one to study

573
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 2: coming out of Princeton.

574
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, any anytime you get those guys that are that

575
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 4: are and I'm using the term it sounds kind of derived,

576
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 4: but are just athletes, right, That's that's their whole calling

577
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 4: card is the fact that they are extremely strong athletically.

578
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 4: It's always exciting to watch those guys grow because it's

579
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 4: it is a big risk to take a swing on

580
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 4: guys like that. I don't think it's as big of

581
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 4: a risk. I actually know some people who who have

582
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 4: worked with him and have coached with have coached him,

583
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 4: and none of them think that he's this developmental, long

584
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 4: term thing. They all believe that he's a guy that

585
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 4: can step in and start and start working right away

586
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 4: and contribute right away. But when you're looking at it

587
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 4: from a broader perspective, you're looking at a guy with

588
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 4: all of the traits that you need, not one or two,

589
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 4: all of the traits you need to be a successful

590
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 4: wide receiver in the NFL, and you give yourself that

591
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 4: little playing piece that you can start working into your offense,

592
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,239
Speaker 4: that you can start trying to find, Okay, what can

593
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 4: we do with that? What can we do with a

594
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 4: guy that has this size, the speed, this explosiveness, this agility,

595
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 4: What can we do to get him more involved. It's

596
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 4: always exciting to watch those guys and see how it

597
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 4: works out. Sometimes it's a little messy, but sometimes you

598
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 4: get guys you don't expect to be as good as

599
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 4: they are. Jason Peters was a tight end coming up

600
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 4: by college. He was an undrafted tight end who went

601
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 4: on to become one of the best offensive tackles in

602
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 4: NFL history. Sometimes you take those swings and they work out,

603
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 4: and using mid late round picks on guys like that

604
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 4: is a good, good idea to go ahead and take

605
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 4: those swings.

606
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: So this offseason, the Chiefs picked up Hollywood Brown. They

607
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: drafted Xavier Worthy, who set the forty yard dash record

608
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: at the combine. I'm half convinced that they're going to

609
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: sign you Saint Bolt tomorrow. It seems like anybody that

610
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: can run that fast is going to be a Kansas

611
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: City Chief. Do they stand out as the most athletic

612
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: team in the NFL? Or are they high on the list?

613
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: What do you find in looking at Kansas City over

614
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: the years.

615
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 4: I don't think they've been number one in any draft

616
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 4: in a while, but they're always very high up there.

617
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 4: They're either a top five or top ten team pretty

618
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 4: much every year, and that kind of predates Andy Reid.

619
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 4: That's not something that was specific just to Andy Reid.

620
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 4: It's something they've been doing through multiple, multiple leadership groups.

621
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 4: But they they are very much at the top of

622
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 4: the NFL when it comes to selecting athletes. They were

623
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 4: a top five team this year. Actually they might have

624
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 4: think they might have been two. They're they're very very high,

625
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 4: whichever it was. They, like you said, they want fast guys.

626
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 4: They know who they are, they know what they want

627
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 4: to do. They look for the guys that do those

628
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 4: things and that that thing just happens to be very

629
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 4: fast on offense. So, like you said, if a guy

630
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 4: runs fast, he's a he's a candidate to be a chief.

631
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: Are there any misconceptions about raz.

632
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 3: Yes, lots.

633
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 4: One of the biggest things that comes up is is

634
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 4: how we chart like success or how likely guys are

635
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 4: to be successful. A guy testing well doesn't mean that

636
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 4: he's going to be successful in the NFL, and it

637
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 4: doesn't even really mean that he is likely to be

638
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 4: successful in the NFL. Most NFL prospects fail and it's

639
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 4: I discussed it every year, but it's just really hard

640
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 4: to wrap your around sometimes that there's about two hundred

641
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 4: and fifty players that are drafted every year, and of

642
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 4: those two hundred and fifty, maybe ten percent will become

643
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 4: starters in the NFL, so maybe twenty players something like that.

644
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 4: There are over two thousand players in every draft. It's

645
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 4: generally about twenty two to twenty five hundred players in

646
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 4: every draft. Most of those players won't get drafted. Most

647
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 4: of those players will never see an NFL field, They'll

648
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 4: never be in an NFL training camp, whether or not

649
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 4: they tested well. So when you start looking at things

650
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 4: like RAZ, you're looking at what are the successful players

651
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 4: in the NFL and what common traits do they share

652
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 4: with NFL prospects.

653
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 3: And that is.

654
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 4: Generally where you find your athletes, your guys like Amarius

655
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 4: Mims who have all these very strong athletic traits that

656
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 4: line up very well with players who have been successful previously,

657
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 4: and if they test well, you look at how they

658
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 4: win on the football field. And this is where the

659
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 4: biggest misconception is, which is that I'm just the numbers guy, right,

660
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 4: and I'm all, it's just the numbers, and that's it.

661
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 4: RAZ is meant to be a part of an evaluation.

662
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 4: It is not the evaluation. You should never start and

663
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 4: stop with RAZ. It should always be a piece of

664
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 4: that puzzle. And if you're looking at a guy that

665
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 4: tests really well. That's obviously a positive thing, but if

666
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 4: it doesn't show up on a football field, you have

667
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 4: to ask yourself, why while why am I not seeing

668
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 4: those athletic traits? And sometimes it's attitude. Sometimes they just

669
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 4: they just check out. They don't really care that much

670
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 4: about football, they don't want to be out there. Sometimes

671
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 4: it's technique. Danielle Hunter is one of my favorite examples

672
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 4: for that because he had none in college. He had

673
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,239
Speaker 4: I think three total sacks in his career something like

674
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 4: that when he was in college. A perennial double digit

675
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 4: sack guy now, but he had all those athletic traits,

676
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 4: and the Vikings were smart enough to look at that

677
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 4: and say, Okay, there's a lot that we can work with.

678
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 4: He just needs to do things with his arms. He's

679
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 4: got to learn how to use his arms. You know,

680
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 4: you've got to be able to marry the testing with

681
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 4: the tape, and you've got to have you got I

682
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 4: have that gumption to be able to look at a

683
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 4: player's testing, whether it's very poor or very good, and

684
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 4: if it doesn't match the tape, you've got to be

685
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 4: able to say to yourself, I am comfortable drafting this

686
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 4: player or I am not regardless of the testing, but

687
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 4: you need to acknowledge that, you need to be aware

688
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 4: that that's a thing that you're doing, because if you

689
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 4: just ignore the numbers, you're going to make mistakes. We

690
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 4: see it every year with some of the guys that

691
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 4: get drafted, and you always hear people say, oh, you

692
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 4: can't measure heart, and yeah, that's I mean, that's true,

693
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 4: but it's not inversely proportional to athletic ability. Guys. Guys

694
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 4: still got to be able to move, you know.

695
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 2: So you take all of these things that are measured

696
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: at the combine and at players pro day's height, weight,

697
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: forty time, bench press, broad jump, vertical, three cone drill,

698
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: et cetera, and combine it into one easy to understand number.

699
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: But having said all that, do you think that any

700
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: of those tests is most important?

701
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 4: Not for every position. I think for individual types of players,

702
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 4: there are some that very much stand out. There's some

703
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 4: broad generalizations that you can make the shuttle drill and

704
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 4: offensive lineman. If you have a very elite shuttle time

705
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 4: four or five or below, there is a very high

706
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 4: probability you're going to be an NFL starter. Whether you're

707
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 4: drafted in the first round or drafted in the seventh

708
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 4: there's a very high probability you're going to end up

709
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 4: starting in the NFL. Very hard to ignore when the

710
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 4: data lines up that cleanly. For pass rushers, if you

711
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 4: want guys that are going to be bending the edge,

712
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 4: they're gonna be those agile guys that can bend around

713
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 4: the side. You want them to have a really good

714
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 4: cone drill. You want them to have a sub seven cone.

715
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 4: If you have a speed receiver, obviously you want them

716
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 4: to test good in the forty. If a guy runs

717
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 4: a four or five and you expect him to be

718
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 4: your speedster, there's a lot of corners that are going

719
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 4: to be faster than him. That's not going to be

720
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 4: as successful as you think it's going to be. So

721
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 4: there are some individual traits that are are are specific

722
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 4: to individual positions in different areas, but none that are broad.

723
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 4: The cone, I think, tends to line up with the

724
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 4: most number of positions. So if there was one drill

725
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 4: that was the most important one, it's probably going to

726
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 4: be the three cone. But I don't think that that's universal.

727
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: You have lived up to your description as a math

728
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: chunkie and a football nerd. I have told people how

729
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: they can find you on Twitter, but where are all

730
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: the various places that they can see your work?

731
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 4: So I'm on multiple socials, I'm primarily on Twitter. You

732
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 4: already mentioned that math bomb. My website is RAZ dot Football.

733
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 4: You can go and check out anything there for free.

734
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: We're up to twenty six thousand players I think on

735
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 4: there from nineteen eighty seven to twenty twenty four. I

736
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 4: also run the Pro Football Network, a mock draft simulator,

737
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 4: so if you're one of those people who likes doing

738
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 4: mock drafts, you can always give that a try and

739
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 4: hopefully you enjoy that as much as you like the

740
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 4: other stuff that we do. And if you're just bored

741
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 4: and want to talk football, obviously like talking football, so

742
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 4: I'm always up for that.

743
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 2: Well, this has been great. I've been very intrigued by

744
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: RAZ for years now, and I'm glad we finally had

745
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: the opportunity to chat. I appreciate your time, Thanks for

746
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: coming on the pod, and keep up the great work.

747
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 4: Thanks so much, appreciate you having me.

748
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: Here's a quick reminder that the Bengals Booth podcast is

749
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: brought to you by pay Corps, Proud to be the

750
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: Bengals Official HR software provider by Alta Fiber future proof

751
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: fiber Internet designed to elevate your home, business, and community

752
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 2: to a new level, and by Kettering Health the best

753
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: care for the best fans. Kettering Health is the official

754
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 2: healthcare provider of the Bengals. The Bengals open the Rookie

755
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: Mini Camp on Friday. In addition to their ten draft picks,

756
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 2: the Bengals will be signing nearly fifteen undrafted free agents.

757
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 2: The team can announce them until they've passed physicals and

758
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: signed their contracts, but the players and or their colleges

759
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,919
Speaker 2: have shared their plans to sign at Cincinnati. I checked

760
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: out the RAS scores for all of those players, and

761
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 2: the guy with the highest number is a wide receiver

762
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: named Cole Burgess. He's from Dan Pitchers alma mater, Cortland,

763
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 2: a Division III school in upstate New York, not far

764
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 2: from Syracuse. The six foot tall, one hundred ninety two

765
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: pound Burgess helped the Red Dragons win the Division III

766
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 2: national championship last year by catching eighty seven passes for

767
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: nearly fourteen hundred yards, including sixteen for touchdowns. In his

768
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 2: college career, he averaged more than seventeen yards a catch,

769
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: and Burgess also had three kick returns for touchdowns. His

770
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: RAS score was nine point eight. That would have ranked

771
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: eighth among wide receivers who tested at the NFL Combine,

772
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: as Burgess ran a four four five forty with a

773
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 2: forty one and a half inch vertical and he broad

774
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 2: jumped more than eleven feet. I'll be eager to get

775
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: a look at Cole Burgess on Friday. Finally, two years

776
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: before the Bengals drafted Joe Burrow, they used a seventh

777
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 2: round pick on a quarterback from the University of Toledo

778
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: named Logan Woodside. He never played in the regular season

779
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: for Cincinnati, but Woodside has played in the NFL for

780
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 2: Tennessee and Atlanta. Now, Logan has returned to the Bengals

781
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 2: as a free agent and will likely battle an undrafted

782
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 2: rookie named Rocky Lombardi who played at Michigan State in

783
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: Northern Illinois, to be the bengals number three quarterback. I

784
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: caught up with Logan on his first day back in

785
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 2: the Bengals locker room. Logan, It's funny sometimes how things

786
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: come full circle. You are back with the team that

787
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: originally drafted you. Tell us about signing with the Bengals.

788
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, super excited, super super grateful to be back and

789
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 5: to have this opportunity, and yeah, it's funny how things

790
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 5: work out.

791
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 3: And then I'm super grateful to be here.

792
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: What appealed to you about this opportunity?

793
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 5: I think just to come back and obviously be a

794
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 5: part of a great organization, a team that's had a

795
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 5: lot of success over the last couple of years, and

796
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 5: you know, just being close to home definitely helps.

797
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: And uh, just excited to be here.

798
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: Obviously being a Joe Burrow teammate speaks for itself. But

799
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: Jake Browning also had a lot of success last year

800
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 2: when he got the opportunity.

801
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: Do you see a.

802
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 2: Quarterback room that can help you bring out the best

803
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 2: in yourself?

804
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: I think so.

805
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 5: You know, obviously I've known Jake a little bit through

806
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 5: college and then you know, obviously meeting him this past

807
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 5: week and youet to meet Joe, but excited to do

808
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 5: that as well. And two great dudes and obviously great quarterbacks,

809
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 5: and I'm excited to be a part of it.

810
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: You've had some success when given the opportunity to play

811
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: for other teams in the NFL, how would you characterize

812
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: your career and how you've done so far, you know.

813
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 5: Just tried to you know, fight each and every day

814
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 5: to to earn a roster spot, and also just with

815
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 5: every opportunity, just just being just being ready and trying

816
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 5: to take advantage of that moment.

817
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 2: You aren't far from home, as you alluded to. How

818
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: have friends and family reacted to this news? Really surprised?

819
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, super, they're super excited.

820
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: You know.

821
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 5: Obviously, my wife is super excited to be back here.

822
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 5: You know, we met it up here and just excited

823
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 5: to be back.

824
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: Have the Bengals giving you any indication of what your

825
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: role might be?

826
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: Are they?

827
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 2: Did they tell you they're likely to keep two on

828
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: the active roster, another person on the practice squad or

829
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: what kind of info did you get from them?

830
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: Not a ton of info on that.

831
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 5: Just really trying to come in here each and every

832
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 5: day and learn my teammates and you know, learn this

833
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 5: offense as quickly as possible, and try to find myself

834
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 5: a role.

835
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: We'll certainly be throwing to some great targets. That has

836
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: to be appealing, I would think to anybody looking to

837
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 2: play quarterback in the NFL.

838
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, great group of skill receivers and obviously running

839
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 5: backs tight ends. So super sided to continue to meet

840
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 5: all these guys and continue.

841
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 3: To work with them.

842
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: Welcome back, appreciate your time, Thank you very much.

843
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 2: Woodside has played very well in NFL preseason games and

844
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: in a stint with the San Antonio commanders of the

845
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,959
Speaker 2: now defunct AAF.

846
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: That's going to do it.

847
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 2: For This episode of the Bengals Booth pot brought to

848
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: you by pay Core, Proud to be the Bengals official

849
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 2: HR software provider, by Ulta Fiber, future proof fiber Internet

850
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: designed to elevate your home, business and community to a

851
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: new level, and by Kettering Health the best care for

852
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: the best fans. Kettering Health is the official healthcare provider

853
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: of the Bengals. If you haven't done so already, please

854
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: subscribe to this podcast and if you have a minute,

855
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: give it a rating or share a comment that helps

856
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: more Bengals fans find us. I'm Dan Hord and thanks

857
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: for listening to The Bengals Booth Podcast