Speaker 1: Alone media, Welcome back to it could Happen here?
Speaker 2: A podcast normally about it happening here, being you know,
Speaker 2: the real world where you live. But for the next
Speaker 2: two weeks after this, and for the week before us,
Speaker 2: and for this week, we're talking about it happening in
Speaker 2: a galaxy far far away. That's right. This is the
Speaker 2: second in our four part series reviewing and discussing and
Speaker 2: Or Season two, which, due to a series of incredibly
Speaker 2: unlikely events, has become the most radical media to reach
Speaker 2: a wide audience in the United States and quite some time.
Speaker 2: I am here with Mio Wong and Garrison Davis. How
Speaker 2: are we all doing today?
Speaker 3: Hanging in there, hanging in there as we always are.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I just watched episodes seven through nine last night,
Speaker 2: which is really helping with the hanging in there.
Speaker 4: I have not seen that shit yet, so yeah, that's
Speaker 4: for next week, though we have to say that for
Speaker 4: next week.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we're not talking about them now, but we
Speaker 2: watched them this week and I'm happy.
Speaker 4: I did watch them, and oh boy, but we still
Speaker 4: have a lot to talk about for episodes four to six.
Speaker 4: It does kind of set up what we see later on,
Speaker 4: but I think there's a lot of interesting stuff there
Speaker 4: with like building an underground resistance, a lot of spies
Speaker 4: an espionage mixed in with like the personal cost of
Speaker 4: rebellion and how it affects like your personal life, your relationships.
Speaker 4: So there is a lot to discuss here. But oh boy,
Speaker 4: I am excited for next week.
Speaker 2: Yes, I am very excited for next week. I'm very
Speaker 2: excited for this week, which we should talk about so
Speaker 2: kind of there's a few themes running through these three episodes.
Speaker 2: One of them is, yeah, the cost in terms of
Speaker 2: your personal life on being part of a rebellion, And yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm interested kind of what are some of the I mean,
Speaker 2: there's one real standout moment in these episodes that I
Speaker 2: know we're all going to want to talk about, which
Speaker 2: is a speech given by Saul Gerrera saw Yeah, played
Speaker 2: by Forrest Whitaker, just amazingly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the speech, Yeah, the nitrous We'll get to it.
Speaker 2: We'll get to that. But yeah, we should start with
Speaker 2: the first of these episodes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, episode four. Ever been to Gorman? I guess once again,
Speaker 4: if you do not want to be giving Disney Plus
Speaker 4: your money, you can be like Hondo a Naka and
Speaker 4: acquire the show that way.
Speaker 3: Remember the torret combinations. Remember the variation's got to keep
Speaker 3: the ball.
Speaker 2: In your head?
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, all nine or eight variations. Let's do a
Speaker 4: quick recap of this episode, then we'll talk about some
Speaker 4: of these aspects. So one year later from the previous episodes,
Speaker 4: Cassiine and Bix are on the planet Coroissant, staying at
Speaker 4: a safe house in between running missions for Luthan. Bix
Speaker 4: is severely struggling with PTSD, while Cassian is stressed about
Speaker 4: having to avoid surveillance while hiding in the capital city.
Speaker 2: And Bix is also we find out abusing space stantics.
Speaker 4: Yeah, later on we can we can see that she's
Speaker 4: she's using using space drugs to help her cope with
Speaker 4: the massive amounts of trauma that she's been forced to
Speaker 4: deal with the past few years. Now, our favorite weasel,
Speaker 4: Cyril Karn, has been transferred to the planet Gormant, where
Speaker 4: he's running the local Bureau of Standards in the capital
Speaker 4: city of Palmo. He refutes Imperial propaganda about Gorman while
Speaker 4: on a FaceTime call with his Fox News addicted.
Speaker 2: Most talking about like, yeah, the Imperial the Imperial News
Speaker 2: says the Gormans are super arrogant, just real assholes.
Speaker 4: You gotta stop watching Imperial news Man. But this may
Speaker 4: be a ploy from Cyril, because Cyril knows he's being
Speaker 4: monitored and surveilled by members of the Gorman Front, a
Speaker 4: small underground resistance group, while working as a double agent
Speaker 4: for his ISB girlfriend Dedra. Sirtle gets invited to a
Speaker 4: town hall meeting where he's introduced to the leader of
Speaker 4: the Gorman Front, a local businessman and city councilor, and
Speaker 4: then Cyril is recruited into the resistance.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to say a little about the Gorman
Speaker 2: Front because they're very clearly French resistance in World War II.
Speaker 2: Coded they developed a whole like language for them to speak,
Speaker 2: which is basically like French.
Speaker 4: With French phonics, but different words.
Speaker 2: But different words, and so it sounds a little bit
Speaker 2: like French and German, like got mashed together. People who
Speaker 2: speak both have told me, I don't know, I'm not
Speaker 2: a not a language guy, but it sounds distinctive and
Speaker 2: they're very clearly like Again, their whole the whole industry
Speaker 2: of this planet is high quality textiles that come from
Speaker 2: like spider silk, but also clearly the the the guy
Speaker 2: who's leading the resistance. His business is kind of meant
Speaker 2: to evoke sort of like a classic like French vineyard. Like,
Speaker 2: so he's like he's not a poor man, right, Like.
Speaker 4: No, He's like he's like wealthy, he's like well off. Yes, yes,
Speaker 4: I mean that's a big part about like Gorman is
Speaker 4: this is like a you know, middle upper class like
Speaker 4: status planet.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: This is like a big part of like Luten's interest
Speaker 4: in the planet is if he can bring a planet
Speaker 4: with that status into the rebellion, that could have a
Speaker 4: whole bunch of advantages. And that's kind of why he's
Speaker 4: at least like looking into them as an option and
Speaker 4: eventually kind of setting them up for like an accelerationist push.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I actually think it's a slightly different even
Speaker 2: than that. But we'll talk about that and up when
Speaker 2: we get to episode nine. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Sure, there's an Iceby board meeting where they discuss a
Speaker 4: batch of new raids and arrests on rebel activity and
Speaker 4: how to deal with this influx of arrests that's making
Speaker 4: it hard to process and obtain useful information. Luthn's Iceby
Speaker 4: spy informs them of the Empire's increased interest in Gorman
Speaker 4: and that the ice be is running covert operations on
Speaker 4: the planet. Meanwhile, Senator Manmathma unsuccessfully lobbies against the Emperor's
Speaker 4: resentencing directive, and at Sagereri's hidot Willem teaches Saws partisans
Speaker 4: how to safety deploy a fuel pipeline of verter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and specifically, Saw puts him with one of his
Speaker 2: guys who's kind of coded as being like a close
Speaker 2: to Saul, Like this is somebody that he really trusts,
Speaker 2: and it's kind of implied fairly soon that like Saw
Speaker 2: doesn't want this guy going back to Luthen with information, right.
Speaker 4: He wants to keep Willim.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's just like kidnap this guy. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: he wants to kill him at first. That's the statement
Speaker 2: he makes to his guy, is like, once you have
Speaker 2: these variations down, we're going to ice him.
Speaker 4: Saw doesn't really trust Luthen very much anymore. He never
Speaker 4: did Luth and slowly losing a lot of the trust
Speaker 4: that he's built up throughout the galaxy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But like one of the things that's interesting here
Speaker 2: is that like we kind of see saws paranoia where
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of variations you need to know to
Speaker 2: get fuel out of any number of different things, and
Speaker 2: the guys like I have to memorize too many if
Speaker 2: you just let us know which one we're trying to
Speaker 2: go after, but that would make it clear which fuel
Speaker 2: station they're going after, So Saw doesn't want to say
Speaker 2: shit initially.
Speaker 4: So this episode we're introduced to the planet Gorman. Like
Speaker 4: in person, it's basically like northern Italy mixed with French culture. Yeah,
Speaker 4: the massive set they built is just gorgeous, huge town
Speaker 4: square for the capital city of Palmo.
Speaker 2: The amount of money they spent on this show.
Speaker 3: The protesters I think is really interesting because it's.
Speaker 4: Like protesters at like the monument of the Tarkan massacre.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, they're kind of fascinating because like the way
Speaker 3: that their banners are designed really really remind me of
Speaker 3: like pictures you see from like nineteen seventeen. Is it's
Speaker 3: like very very similar to that. And also they have
Speaker 3: a thing that's a very common protest thing where it's
Speaker 3: like there's as you know, there's protests going on, so
Speaker 3: there's like just like ten guys in the square all
Speaker 3: the time, yes, kind of like chantons, Yeah, always making noise.
Speaker 2: They're kind of keeping a vigil because basically what happened.
Speaker 2: And this is another interesting Tony Gurroy is kind of
Speaker 2: famously not a Star Wars fan like prior to working
Speaker 2: on this, and so there was a lot of like
Speaker 2: anxiety from big Star Wars nerds that like, oh, this
Speaker 2: isn't going to feel like Star Wars, but it clearly
Speaker 2: has a lot of folks who understand, not just like
Speaker 2: the stuff that's come out, you know, since Disney started,
Speaker 2: in the different books and comics, but like the legend
Speaker 2: stuff because in legends, like a major spark of the
Speaker 2: whole rebellion was the Gorman massacre, which is in tarkan Lands,
Speaker 2: and Tarkan's the old guy in the Death Star in
Speaker 2: a New Hope, right, Like, he's the guy who's Darth
Speaker 2: Vader's boss in the first movie, and he lands a
Speaker 2: craft on a crowd at Gorman, and that's supposed to
Speaker 2: have been one of the major sparks. And they've retconned
Speaker 2: it a little but to the point where that still happened,
Speaker 2: but it's clearly the setup for a larger massacre that
Speaker 2: this season is building towards.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Man, Spacebox News very good. We see the Ministry
Speaker 4: of Enlightenment's efforts to weaponize public opinion, and how much
Speaker 4: it's working on someone on someone like Cyril's mother, who
Speaker 4: who then becomes convinced that like that the propaganda that
Speaker 4: she's being fed is stuff that she like already believed
Speaker 4: absolutely right, is stuff that she she's like red conned
Speaker 4: into her own memory of being like no, like I've
Speaker 4: I've always never trusted the Gore. Yeah. Meanwhile, she's like
Speaker 4: sitting in front of her like TV like twenty four
Speaker 4: to seven, watching this like garbage get beamed into her brain.
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering, did y'all wonder for a second if
Speaker 2: Cyril was legitimately getting pilled by totally the GORMANSI yeah,
Speaker 2: because it's good. Right, there's like that moment where like, well,
Speaker 2: fuck is he is our boy like starting to have
Speaker 2: a break already, and then he realized like.
Speaker 3: No, that's what we're getting.
Speaker 4: Like that's kind of what's being set up, is like
Speaker 4: like will will this experience for Cyril change him as
Speaker 4: a person? And like, I think, yeah, the audience is
Speaker 4: meant to not fully know, and I think I think
Speaker 4: it's it's definitely like possible. But but Cyril might be
Speaker 4: more of a hard ass than what some people give
Speaker 4: him credit for. Yeah, because he is. He's very excited
Speaker 4: to get invited to this meeting. He purchases a spider
Speaker 4: from one of like the Gorman Front like recruiters that
Speaker 4: has information on how to how to go to this
Speaker 4: like public town hall, where he talks about, hey, you
Speaker 4: know if maybe maybe we can start working together, maybe
Speaker 4: we can start feeding information. One point, hilariously, he gets
Speaker 4: he gets accused of being an Imperial spy in like
Speaker 4: a joking manner, yeah, and denies it. And then he
Speaker 4: gets on the phone with his IP girlfriend and he's like.
Speaker 3: I'm in also, this is this is this is one
Speaker 3: of the first time we see is the Gorman Front people.
Speaker 3: These people have no idea what the fuck they're doing.
Speaker 3: They are amateurs there they are like yeah, like their
Speaker 3: operational security is unbelievably dog shit. They like wiretaffed one
Speaker 3: guy and were like, hey, let me introduce you to
Speaker 3: the leader of our organization. We have met you one time.
Speaker 3: We have listened to one phone call. You're in now.
Speaker 2: I just I think they probably listen to more than
Speaker 2: but it's yeah, they've definitely been watching hi him much.
Speaker 3: They just were kind of like, hey, you're going to
Speaker 3: meet their leader now at the first meeting you've shown
Speaker 3: up to he.
Speaker 4: Met Like the public facing aspect of it, Yeah, I
Speaker 4: guess yeah.
Speaker 2: You can see the gorman like they have some degree
Speaker 2: of sophistication and that they're tapping like him and they've
Speaker 2: been listening probably for quite a while and they sweep
Speaker 2: their shit every day for bugs, so you understand that,
Speaker 2: Like they have an idea of what they need to
Speaker 2: be doing. But when it comes to all of the
Speaker 2: in person stuff, that's where they're incompetent right where they
Speaker 2: they don't have the actual operational experience to know when
Speaker 2: someone feels off right, Like that's the stuff that they're missing,
Speaker 2: Like man to man on the ground is where the
Speaker 2: problems come in. Like you can tell they're thinking this
Speaker 2: stuff through, but they just don't know what they're doing enough.
Speaker 3: This is this is the thing you I mean, this
Speaker 3: is the thing you genuine wine you run into, like
Speaker 3: in the field a lot where there's people who like
Speaker 3: have read a lot of self bought operational security but
Speaker 3: haven't done anything and so they don't under and there's
Speaker 3: there's varying levels of this right, but you get this
Speaker 3: to do people where it's like they don't know what
Speaker 3: the important things are. So they do some of the
Speaker 3: stuff right that they've read, but they don't understand how
Speaker 3: to put all of it together to like do something securely.
Speaker 3: And so you'll get these things where like some of
Speaker 3: their stuff is like unbelievably secure to a point where
Speaker 3: it's useless, and then some.
Speaker 4: Of it is like very open.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're just like, hey have I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they'll just bring people into stuff that instantly compromises everything
Speaker 3: that they're doing because they haven't like bought it through. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, and this is something that that Cassian talks
Speaker 4: about in the next episode, which we will get to shortly.
Speaker 4: I mean, so much of these episodes is built around
Speaker 4: like paranoia and like surveillance. We like Cassie's talking about
Speaker 4: not wanting to go like on a walk in the
Speaker 4: park because the Empire just put up cameras. He's nervous
Speaker 4: about like where they go grocery shopping. Like he's trying
Speaker 4: to like do everything right, but it's like hurting his
Speaker 4: relationship with Bicks, and it's making their life like very
Speaker 4: very challenging. En core assant as they're like stationed there
Speaker 4: in between missions. Like meanwhile, like Luthan's just trying to
Speaker 4: gain as much information on Gorman as possible. He has
Speaker 4: a line that I like, a smear campaign is an
Speaker 4: opening move, not an endgame. I need the end game. Yeah,
Speaker 4: talking about like the limits of you know, the Empire's
Speaker 4: Fox News style propaganda is only is only like a
Speaker 4: starting position, like this is obviously leading somewhere, and I
Speaker 4: need to know where that is. And he's going to
Speaker 4: obtain that information slowly over the course of the next few episodes.
Speaker 4: And then I think the other thing I want to
Speaker 4: talk about before we go on break is Mon Mathma's
Speaker 4: lobbying against like the prison sentencing guidelines. She says, quote
Speaker 4: sector boundaries, civil liberties, personal freedom, respect for local traditions.
Speaker 4: You've been voting with me on these issues for years.
Speaker 4: And the Gorman senator replies, this is security. Mon, You're
Speaker 4: confusing criminality and politics here. Mon says, really, are we
Speaker 4: finding criminals or are we making them? Yeah, this is
Speaker 4: where you see senators parroting like fake crime stats about
Speaker 4: how there's been like you know, this increased wave of surgery.
Speaker 2: But that's not true.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because just because they're arresting more people, that makes
Speaker 4: there be more crime. And like you see this in
Speaker 4: season one where Cassiean's arrested at the Beach planet for
Speaker 4: like no reason and then sentenced to the Forever prison. Yeah, like, yeah,
Speaker 4: they are arresting more people. So if you just look
Speaker 4: at those stats by itself without any context on like
Speaker 4: how how other policing is working, then yeah, I can
Speaker 4: look a certain way. And this is what Mon's trying
Speaker 4: to push back on, and and the other senators are
Speaker 4: just too like bought into the empire or too scared,
Speaker 4: like the Gorman senator believes that voting against the Emperor
Speaker 4: at this point would further endanger his planet. Yeah, even
Speaker 4: though this type of thing is actually going to end
Speaker 4: up biting him in the ass in the next few years.
Speaker 2: Yes, and yeah, he is like very much desperate to like, no, please,
Speaker 2: we can we can calm this down if we just
Speaker 2: don't piss the empire off enough.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: The thing I think is actually it's interesting about the
Speaker 3: crime statistic stuff is that this is actually a more
Speaker 3: sophisticated operation than what happened in real life. We're in
Speaker 3: real life, all the actual crime statists were like crime
Speaker 3: is falling, but everyone just kept saying there was more
Speaker 3: crime totally. Yeah, this is like arrestly more people to
Speaker 3: jack the crime rates. That He's a more sophisticated thing
Speaker 3: than what we actually dealt with, which was the media just.
Speaker 4: Live our own version of this are not outer space
Speaker 4: version of like propaganda news. Media can just say something
Speaker 4: and you don't even need this tats to back it up. Yeah,
Speaker 4: let's go and break and we'll come back to talk
Speaker 4: about episode five. I have friends everywhere.
Speaker 5: Ah and we're back.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, let's start with the summary of this episode.
Speaker 4: All right, Luthen wants a first person assessment of the
Speaker 4: Gorman front, but he's like too high profile to go himself,
Speaker 4: so he sends Cassie and undercover as fashion designer variants Sky.
Speaker 4: The ISB stage is a performative raid of Cyril Karan's
Speaker 4: office to gain more cred with local rebels as Cyril
Speaker 4: begins to feed them select information, and.
Speaker 2: He does such a good job of seeming pissed at it.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, he loves he loves pretending to be pissed
Speaker 4: at the ISB. He has so much fun kicking his
Speaker 4: little trash can across the room. This is outrageous. Yeah,
Speaker 4: very good stuff. And I do like, like, yeah, like
Speaker 4: the weaponization of like state repression as a tactic to
Speaker 4: actually increase state repression, like long term doing this like
Speaker 4: performative show so that Cyril like builds trust and like
Speaker 4: solidarity with the other rebels. Very good. Luthen visits Bicks
Speaker 4: at the safehouse and grows concern for her well being
Speaker 4: as she uses space drugs to cope with trauma.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Cyril arrives back on Coruissant to report to ICE B Command,
Speaker 4: has a one hour meeting with his girlfriend where they
Speaker 4: turn off the lights.
Speaker 2: Yeah, after arguing because she's had him followed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a little the pause that she's having him followed,
Speaker 4: and then she orders into Toronto lights and then they
Speaker 4: do something for an hour in their apartment.
Speaker 2: God only knows.
Speaker 3: I don't want to know. I don't want to know
Speaker 3: what this fascist weirdness.
Speaker 4: But at ICE the Command they plan how to like
Speaker 4: carefully push the Gorman Front into taking action against the Empire.
Speaker 4: Cassian makes contact on Gorman and is unimpressed with their
Speaker 4: operational security and Warren's against trusting an imperial source, as
Speaker 4: the ISB could be feeding false intel.
Speaker 2: Some of the best moments in the episode so far
Speaker 2: because it's it's they don't know shit about Cassian, so
Speaker 2: they don't know who they're talking to. And when he's like,
Speaker 2: you guys, shouldn't do fuck right now because you don't
Speaker 2: know shit about fuck, they're like, well, you're not a
Speaker 2: real revolutionary.
Speaker 4: You don't get it, And like, honestly, I understand what
Speaker 4: what's being expressed there too, and like, well, we'll get
Speaker 4: ahead in a sec Like the Gorman Front is adamant
Speaker 4: that their source is vetted and reliable, even though they
Speaker 4: haven't really been vetted. The plan is is that the
Speaker 4: resistance seeks to expose the construction of an imperial military
Speaker 4: based on Palmo, something that the Empire denies, though it
Speaker 4: seems most of the citizens actually already take this to
Speaker 4: be true, so and Or questions the necessity of this
Speaker 4: plan and relations sour with the group. Back on Coruscant,
Speaker 4: Clea learns through radio chatter that one of Luthan's listening
Speaker 4: devices may be discovered. During an artifact reappraisal, Saw kills
Speaker 4: an imperial spy and his crew forcibly recruits Willem, and
Speaker 4: while on mission installing a fuel diverter, Saw convinces Willem
Speaker 4: to huff the fuel fumes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll talk about that in a second.
Speaker 4: I want to talk a little bit about like Cassian
Speaker 4: on Gorman. Yes, And there's a lot of interesting stuff there,
Speaker 4: and like specifically when the Gorman Front leader like calls
Speaker 4: Cassian out for like not being a real revolutionary, which
Speaker 4: I think is kind of true. Like Cassia at this
Speaker 4: point is a thief and a soldier. He thinks about
Speaker 4: things purely from that like operationally like like tactical point
Speaker 4: of view. He doesn't have like a larger like politics.
Speaker 4: He's like focused on right, like like Luthin is more
Speaker 4: of like a revolutionary, a very like manipulative one, but
Speaker 4: like he is focused on like this like larger political game.
Speaker 4: And this is something that at this point Cassiean's not
Speaker 4: fully like interested in. He's more interested on like on
Speaker 4: the ground like tactical preparedness.
Speaker 2: He is interested in what he can do and get
Speaker 2: away with right exactly as opposed to Luthan is interested
Speaker 2: in what does more damage to the Empire. Now, what's
Speaker 2: interesting to me is that the Gorman Front are actually
Speaker 2: in the middle. They think totally that they are willing
Speaker 2: to do whatever, but they don't understand what that is.
Speaker 2: And part of what you are seeing here is the
Speaker 2: Gorman Front are adamant, we are ready for war. We're
Speaker 2: already in a war. Yeah, and they're not technically wrong
Speaker 2: about that because the Empire is planning to wipe them out. Right.
Speaker 2: We know the Empire does not plan for there to
Speaker 2: be a Gorman in the future. So the stakes are
Speaker 2: where they're saying they are. But even though they're saying that,
Speaker 2: most of them don't truly believe or understand it. And
Speaker 2: Cassian understands what war is, and what he is telling
Speaker 2: them is that you are and he's right about this.
Speaker 2: You are not ready for what you think you're ready
Speaker 2: for totally because what you're going to do is die
Speaker 2: all of you.
Speaker 4: That's what makes all their interactions so interesting, because there
Speaker 4: is that unspoken tention which slowly gets like aired, because
Speaker 4: like they're really assessing different things, Like what Cassie's assessing
Speaker 4: is different from what Lusen wants assessed, and that's different
Speaker 4: from what the Gorman Front actually want to do. Like
Speaker 4: they're okay with a degree of casualties like being had
Speaker 4: because they just want to like have control over their
Speaker 4: planet again and put up any resistance even if it
Speaker 4: ends up like leading to hardship.
Speaker 3: But I think the other angle of that too, though,
Speaker 3: is it like they don't know what they're doing, right, No, likeha,
Speaker 3: they like their plan. Their plan is not genuinely really bad, right.
Speaker 3: Like the plan is that they want to like steal
Speaker 3: an imperial weapons shipment and then reveal that the Empire
Speaker 3: shipping weapons in. But if you do that, then you've
Speaker 3: just like and Andrew points it out, like, okay, so
Speaker 3: if you if you do this, then you reveal that
Speaker 3: you did you hijacked the shipment. So they're just going
Speaker 3: to like.
Speaker 4: Raid you all, and they're okay with that, yeah, And
Speaker 4: they're like okay with that visibility at this point.
Speaker 2: And there's this this very standard. It's also this very
Speaker 2: common and this is part of what Casside recognizes, this
Speaker 2: common myopic thing that you get with people who again
Speaker 2: think they want a war that they don't truly understand
Speaker 2: the meaning of, where they're like, we need, we need weapons,
Speaker 2: and when they think of weapons, they think of guns
Speaker 2: that they can hold, and so that's what they're focused
Speaker 2: on getting and that's what they think will let them
Speaker 2: fight the Empire. When Casside understands there's no fighting the
Speaker 2: Empire with what you can possibly get from a raid
Speaker 2: like this. All there is is suicide. And then there's
Speaker 2: the other level of what Luthan understands is so the fuck.
Speaker 4: Was sometimes that needs to happen.
Speaker 2: What matters is that these people die in public and
Speaker 2: it pisses people off. Yeah, right, And that's there's this
Speaker 2: there's this escalation of like the Gormans think having guns
Speaker 2: means you and fight.
Speaker 4: Back, or like guns guns means that they'll be safer.
Speaker 2: Right, and they're wrong. Cassie and thinks staying alive for
Speaker 2: a future moment means that you can fight back, and
Speaker 2: he is wrong. Luthan understands that the only ammunition that
Speaker 2: really counts in this war is human life and that sucks,
Speaker 2: and that sucks. That's why he's lost his mind and soul.
Speaker 4: Yes, and that's why people are starting to really like
Speaker 4: dislike working with him, because he's even though he might
Speaker 4: not be like completely wrong here, Yeah, I like so
Speaker 4: much of this episode is built around finding bugs. Yeah,
Speaker 4: the ISB looks for bugs, in Cyro's office. The Iceba's
Speaker 4: planting bugs in Zero's office. Bugs are hidden in the
Speaker 4: artifacts that Luthen's selling to high society. Everyone's listening, everyone's always,
Speaker 4: everyone's trying to collect more intel.
Speaker 2: And there's this this this issue the Empire and Luthan's
Speaker 2: organization are of having with like we're getting too much,
Speaker 2: you know. The Empire's like we're arresting too many people,
Speaker 2: like yeah, number one, it's like cutting into our ability
Speaker 2: to get into these organizations. And it also is just
Speaker 2: like we're drowning. And Lutan says the same thing. I'm
Speaker 2: always spacing on her name, but she's wonderful to his
Speaker 2: his his consent, lady, like, we're drowning, we have too
Speaker 2: much shit.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Something I love is when when Cyril's talking with the
Speaker 4: Gorman Front about the ISB rate of his office, the
Speaker 4: Gorman Front remarks, quote, we think the ISB is running
Speaker 4: a shadow government without the Emperor's yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, And it's a real You hear this when you
Speaker 2: read about histories of like Tsarist Russia, like even a
Speaker 2: lot of people who take part in the nineteen seventeen
Speaker 2: revolution right right up till it started, their attitude was like, oh,
Speaker 2: if the Czar knew what his advisors were doing in
Speaker 2: his name, he'd exactly it'd be on our side. And
Speaker 2: the same thing happened in the Third Reich. If only
Speaker 2: Hitler knew was a common phrase. We're like, well, Hitler,
Speaker 2: who doesn't know the Gestapo's doing all these awful things?
Speaker 4: Of course, And it's it's so sad because like this
Speaker 4: is this is their like local like resistance group who
Speaker 4: still has that level of delusion because they come from
Speaker 4: the high society, right, they come from this like diplomatic
Speaker 4: background where they can like solve solved through through like
Speaker 4: free trade. And they're like, sure, surely, surely the Emperor
Speaker 4: doesn't actually know what's going on here. It must it
Speaker 4: must be like the CIA, it must be the FBI.
Speaker 4: It's like the is SB is running a shadow government.
Speaker 4: They're the ones that are actually like ruining things. Yes,
Speaker 4: And you're like, no, your enemy is the entire empire. Yes,
Speaker 4: your enemy is the ISB, but it's also Cyril Karn
Speaker 4: and it's also Emperor Palpatine.
Speaker 2: Yes. And I love That's part of what I love
Speaker 2: about that that laddered interaction between them and Cassie and
Speaker 2: Cassie and Luthan is they're not really revolutionaries either. They
Speaker 2: they are protesters right totally. They still think that the
Speaker 2: overall Empire, once it realizes how bad things are, will
Speaker 2: be on their side, and Cassian thinks they can wait. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's Luthan who's like, no, no, no, there's one
Speaker 2: way out, right, you know, back going back to season one,
Speaker 2: there's one way out.
Speaker 4: Before we talk about the Sagerera stuff at the end,
Speaker 4: I do want to point out how wonderful it was
Speaker 4: to see Cyril Karn in the ISB control room where
Speaker 4: he remarks that this is the greatest day of his life.
Speaker 3: Oh god, it's like Libby finally getting to spy.
Speaker 2: And part of Guys even makes that great that great
Speaker 2: comment where he's directly talking about the Gorman Front and
Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, there's a lot of people who think
Speaker 2: they understand shit better than they do because they're new
Speaker 2: to it. But he's also he's clearly talking to Cyril
Speaker 2: like you don't know what you're doing, but I'll use you.
Speaker 3: Fine. It's so good.
Speaker 4: Cyril gains cred amongst the Gorman Front when they find
Speaker 4: out that his background is that he lost his job
Speaker 4: because the ISP found out how badly he fucked up
Speaker 4: Ferricks Like They're like, ah, I see, Cyril must have
Speaker 4: good reason to hate the Empire because of that. You're like, No,
Speaker 4: he's like fuckers, He's desperately trying to like become some
Speaker 4: like ISP secret agent. Yeah, Like he just wants approval
Speaker 4: from like the daddy state, like.
Speaker 2: And from his girlfriend right and has taken over for
Speaker 2: his mom in being like the primary source the person
Speaker 2: he's trying to impress.
Speaker 4: The last thing I want to talk about in this
Speaker 4: episode is this episode displays like two different types of
Speaker 4: drug use. Yes, we have Bix who's trying to get
Speaker 4: over the immense amount of fucked up stuff that's happened
Speaker 4: to her by taking space XENX if you will.
Speaker 2: She's barred out every night holding a gun watching TV
Speaker 2: and yeah, and it's like who amongst us? It is
Speaker 2: disrupting her personal life.
Speaker 4: It's also disrupting her like operational capacity.
Speaker 2: She has been sent out in the recent past and
Speaker 2: she can't be sent back out again. And the specific
Speaker 2: we don't even see the mission that most recently fucked
Speaker 2: her up, but we're through her nightmares were lid to
Speaker 2: in first she and Cassie and captured an Imperial pilot
Speaker 2: and Cassian killed the guy because he'd seen her face,
Speaker 2: and she's, in addition to having been tortured in season one,
Speaker 2: fucked up because like we didn't need to kill him,
Speaker 2: and Cassiean's like, yeah we did, Like he saw your face.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 4: The weight of Resistance is really getting to Bix. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and like Luthen comes over to like check on her
Speaker 4: and also like see if she's able to like work
Speaker 4: and see if she can like appraise some like weapons
Speaker 4: or something, and he realizes like she is not like
Speaker 4: well enough to work at this point, yeah, and becomes
Speaker 4: like getting worried for her and like like try to
Speaker 4: like plead with her, like you have to you have
Speaker 4: to make sure that you like stay healthy. I don't know,
Speaker 4: it's it's it's definitely it's it's definitely hard to watch.
Speaker 4: I think this is definitely like this moment. It's like,
Speaker 4: I don't Bix has always had a lot of agency
Speaker 4: taken away from her, Like we see this like in
Speaker 4: season one, and we see this kind of now and
Speaker 4: I definitely would like to would like to see her
Speaker 4: get put back in like the driver's seat of her
Speaker 4: own life at a certain point. But like like like
Speaker 4: living through like PTSD and living through like these types
Speaker 4: of like you know, political movements does does like destroy
Speaker 4: people and like this does happen.
Speaker 2: Well, and just what torture does, right, Like, Yeah, torture
Speaker 2: breaks people, that's its purpose, you know.
Speaker 4: So we have space n X and then we have Salgerera.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we fucking do.
Speaker 2: So let's I want to talk a little bit about
Speaker 2: his background, some stuff that's not in the show. And
Speaker 2: the show you see him when when he is already
Speaker 2: basically the hardest son of a bitch in the rebellion. Right,
Speaker 2: he is the only leader of a rebel faction that
Speaker 2: Luthen treats as an equal right where like Luthan is
Speaker 2: meeting with him, we see Luthan meeting with him directly.
Speaker 2: Luthen is not willing to sacrifice he and his men
Speaker 2: in like in order to maintain the cover of a spy,
Speaker 2: which he.
Speaker 4: Is serious militants.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they are serious and there and every time we
Speaker 2: see them, there's more of them and they have more ships.
Speaker 2: They're the first ones, they're the first rebels.
Speaker 3: To use X quest ones, X wings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Saws background and you have this is way
Speaker 2: a bunch of the expanded stuff. But he's he started
Speaker 2: out as essentially a local rebel on this planet during
Speaker 2: the Clone Wars that was not aligned between either major faction,
Speaker 2: but basically the Jedi, taking the role of Space Cia,
Speaker 2: armed him and his sister to lead like a rebel
Speaker 2: group against the other power they were fighting in the Clone.
Speaker 4: Wars occupation, like separatist forces.
Speaker 2: He was meant to be Mujahideen coded right initially, right,
Speaker 2: So he's like a space musja Hideen who's armed by
Speaker 2: the Space Cia, who are the Jedi y and then
Speaker 2: when the Republic ends, he immediately starts fighting the Empire.
Speaker 2: And one of the kind of like moments that Form
Speaker 2: saw is his sister dies in the in the process
Speaker 2: of this failed attempt to gain independence for their homeworld,
Speaker 2: this place called Hoduron.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 2: You don't need to know any of that to perfectly
Speaker 2: get and enjoy his character in these shows. But the
Speaker 2: moment that we're talked about to talk about means more
Speaker 2: if you understand his backstory with his sister, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and he's been doing this ever since he was
Speaker 4: like a kid, like.
Speaker 2: Yes, and yet this has been his whole life, right,
Speaker 2: I think he's supposed to be like forty six when
Speaker 2: he dies in Rogue one.
Speaker 4: Hard forty six.
Speaker 2: If you look at him, you know, he looks clearly older,
Speaker 2: but also he looks like, well, yeah, he's been fighting
Speaker 2: his entire life. That age is a teenager and he
Speaker 2: has this. So the first thing that he does is
Speaker 2: he executes this guy who was set up as his friend.
Speaker 2: When it becomes clear that that guy was a spy
Speaker 2: and it's insinuated, he than it's a spy for the Empire.
Speaker 2: That guy might have been a spy for Lutheren or
Speaker 2: someone else. We don't actually know.
Speaker 4: Sure, we know he was sending info to someone he
Speaker 4: was transmitting. Yeah, saw things that they were going to
Speaker 4: set up like an ambush at their next mission. Yeah,
Speaker 4: And instead they evacuate their base.
Speaker 2: And Saw blasts him and basically says, hey, to the kid,
Speaker 2: your mind now, and we're going to go steal this
Speaker 2: fucking fuel. Yeah. So the next time we see them,
Speaker 2: they've they've busted onto this Imperial fuel lot and they're
Speaker 2: fueling up their ships and while the kid is like
Speaker 2: working out to set this thing up to allow them
Speaker 2: to take the ribo, which is the rum Riydonium rhydo sorry,
Speaker 2: the starship fuel. While the kid is like doing this
Speaker 2: job that we've been told if you don't do it perfectly,
Speaker 2: it kills you and everyone around. You saw his monologuing
Speaker 2: and he's talking about his childhood where he was like,
Speaker 2: I was a child slave, you know, forced to labor
Speaker 2: in these rhido mines, right, and one day there was
Speaker 2: a gas leak and all everyone ran and you know
Speaker 2: this stuff, it was so bad out there. The old
Speaker 2: people would die and you'd come back the next day
Speaker 2: and the jungle was so thick they'd been eaten down
Speaker 2: to bones and want everybody has to flee because of
Speaker 2: this leak. But I don't run away because, like I'm
Speaker 2: huffing this gas, I get high and I like realize
Speaker 2: for the first time I'm alive, you know. He has
Speaker 2: this like yeah, this moment. And then when the kid
Speaker 2: figures out how to get the fuel hooked up, Saw
Speaker 2: immediately leans in and starts huffing what is effectively gasoline
Speaker 2: and going and the kid's like what the fuck. The
Speaker 2: kid who's wearing gas mask, who's like wearing a gasp
Speaker 2: is like, what are you doing, and he's like, she's
Speaker 2: my sister, right, Oh, she's my sister and she loves me.
Speaker 4: I want to read it here. I have this back
Speaker 4: of the monologu quote. Yeah, you feel how badly she
Speaker 4: wants to explode. Yeah, remember this moment. You think I'm crazy? Yes,
Speaker 4: I am. Revolution is not for the saane. Look at us, unloved,
Speaker 4: hunted cannon fodder. Will all be dead before the Republic
Speaker 4: is back. And yet here we are. Where are you, boy?
Speaker 3: You're here.
Speaker 4: You're not with Luthin, You're here. You're right here, and
Speaker 4: you're ready to fight. We're the rido kid, We're the fuel.
Speaker 4: We're the thing that explodes when there's too much friction
Speaker 4: in the air. Let it in, boy, that's freedom calling
Speaker 4: Let it in, Let it run, let it run wild.
Speaker 2: And he is just for one thing.
Speaker 4: The kid is choking on the on the fumes, is.
Speaker 2: Nearly dying from the gas fumes that clearly saw as
Speaker 2: barely affected by anymore. Right, it's again this thing I
Speaker 2: love that they do in terms of they're calling back
Speaker 2: to the older lore when he calls this his sister. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but you don't need to know that his sister died
Speaker 2: to get this moment. It just makes it adds an
Speaker 2: extra layer of meaning if you're a nerd for the lore,
Speaker 2: which I appreciate a lot. And it also sets up
Speaker 2: in Rogue one when we see Saw Near Death he's
Speaker 2: huff he's on he's on the oxygen. He's well, I
Speaker 2: think he's on O two because he's destroyed his lung suffing.
Speaker 4: He's having this now, this is this is what he's
Speaker 4: hughing that it has been like like like RETCONND.
Speaker 2: Confirmed it wasn't oxygen.
Speaker 4: Okay, yes, bo the writer, yeah, old Tony Gilroy and said, hey,
Speaker 4: what if we have him huff and fumes and they
Speaker 4: went for it.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but I but I think that was to
Speaker 2: try to explain because because Tony said he didn't know
Speaker 2: why Saul was on oxygen when yeah put it in
Speaker 2: Rogue one, and so they came to explain it. But
Speaker 2: I think he's on oxygen because I.
Speaker 4: Think it's been reckon to being that he's just huffing rising.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I saw it in an article. You yeah, so either way,
Speaker 4: we'll see, we'll see. I could be wrong. I was
Speaker 4: wrong last because of one thing. I miscredited the quote
Speaker 4: about about the empire's grip tightening and systems falling through
Speaker 4: because the theory twinks British actor has a has an
Speaker 4: accent very similar to the one Carry Fisher poorly tries
Speaker 4: to imitate in a New Hope where she says that
Speaker 4: line so sorry, George, Sorry George, that was your line.
Speaker 4: Good line. The theory twink just has some very similar ones.
Speaker 4: So I got confused accountability.
Speaker 2: Wow, mean to Carry Fisher Garrison.
Speaker 4: Everyone knows her accent's been in that movie.
Speaker 3: We all know it.
Speaker 2: I fucking of this speech by Oh.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the most Robert thing I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's perfect. It's perfect. Everything about it makes me
Speaker 2: so happy. Bo Willman continues to be like maybe the
Speaker 2: best monologuest writing for TV right now. It's just such
Speaker 2: a raw scene and it explains both like why Saw
Speaker 2: is still around, because he's the most paranoid, crazy son
Speaker 2: of a bitch there is and because he unlike everyone
Speaker 2: else and unlike the Gorman's, unlike even Cassie, and he's
Speaker 2: the only guy who understands what Luthan understands, which is
Speaker 2: that like totally, we're not here to see the other
Speaker 2: side of this now we're here to catch on fire,
Speaker 2: you know, like that's the.
Speaker 3: Whole thing, and hopefully that fire will grow.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and yeah, if that means we get burned up
Speaker 4: in the process, that is that's how it be. Yeah,
Speaker 4: if the fire will burn very brightly. Yes, all right,
Speaker 4: let's go and break and then come back to discus
Speaker 4: the final episode in this arc. Okay, we are back.
Speaker 4: And Or Season two, episode six, What a festive evening.
Speaker 4: Luthen sends Mon Mathma's cousin Val to re establish relations
Speaker 4: with the Gorman front after Cassian's icy reception. Cassian and
Speaker 4: Bis reunite on Corrossant, but then Cassian shows up at
Speaker 4: Luthen's shop to confront him about checking in on Bis
Speaker 4: at the safe house while and Or was on mission.
Speaker 4: In a possibly like OPSEC irresponsible huge.
Speaker 2: OPSEC fuck huge ox Casian Andor's face is known.
Speaker 4: Yeah, not good. This is like the Cassian's emotions getting
Speaker 4: the better of him here. Senator man Mathma and her
Speaker 4: husband Paren attend a party of the Empire's elite, where
Speaker 4: she debates Krenik on imperial cruelty and the mindset of
Speaker 4: a rebel underdog. Meanwhile, Claya uses their undercover ice b
Speaker 4: agent to help remove a listening device hidden in the
Speaker 4: Price collection of artifacts. Vell reunites with Sinta as they
Speaker 4: helped to lead the Gorman Front's first attack, stealing imperial
Speaker 4: weapons on a cargo transport. At first, things go according
Speaker 4: to plan. Cyril watches from a distance and reports to
Speaker 4: Iceby headquarters.
Speaker 2: We should note ahead of this that during the meeting
Speaker 2: where they had about this, one point that they had
Speaker 2: made is none of you have guns. None of you
Speaker 2: carry guns on this Me and her are the only
Speaker 2: people with blasters. You don't need them, you're not competent
Speaker 2: to use them.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, near the end of this operation, a civilian confronts
Speaker 4: the rebels, but what they're doing and in the struggle,
Speaker 4: Sinta is accidentally shot and killed by one of the
Speaker 4: members of the Gorman Front, a guy named Sam with
Speaker 4: two ms. I love Star Wars. This episode ends with
Speaker 4: Bix and Cassian going on a mission to kill the
Speaker 4: Imperial interrogation expert doctor Gorst, which they succeed and then
Speaker 4: walk away heroically from the explosion, similar to.
Speaker 2: Kill him by torturing him the way he tortured her.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then then they love the building and they
Speaker 4: play the music que from the very first arc, Yeah,
Speaker 4: the very first season where Cassian is walking away with
Speaker 4: that fast drum beat. So this episode has so much
Speaker 4: about like like relationships complicating political activity.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: We have we have and orn bicks. We have the
Speaker 4: lesbians of Valen Senta killed lesbian. They did kill your lesbian.
Speaker 4: We'll talk about that. Yeah, we'll talk about a second.
Speaker 4: They also have They also have Cyril and Dedra. We
Speaker 4: have like like a lot of a lot of like
Speaker 4: how relationships and politics like function, how where there's friction,
Speaker 4: when things can go well, with things can go bad.
Speaker 4: Let's talk I guess a little bit of about this
Speaker 4: party where where where uh Luthen talks with Cretic very
Speaker 4: very briefly and at the end, I mean this is
Speaker 4: this is a very effective scene where they like build
Speaker 4: tension with Clay trying to remove this bug while critics
Speaker 4: like in the room seeing seeing these other artifacts and
Speaker 4: it's like debating Mond. But when when Luthen and Claya
Speaker 4: leave they jokingly remark, oh, good man, we should have
Speaker 4: killed critic when we were up there, and they laugh
Speaker 4: and you're like, yeah, you know, you guys should have that's.
Speaker 2: You really should have killed critic.
Speaker 4: You really should have killed critic. It would have bummed
Speaker 4: things up. But then the Death Star may not have
Speaker 4: been completed. Yeah, and this whole thing would have gone differently.
Speaker 4: Although you know, you know, in a way, the death
Speaker 4: sto Operation does lead to the Ball of the Empire
Speaker 4: in like a paradox way.
Speaker 3: To be fair, they don't know exists some.
Speaker 4: Business, but he's like he's like a super high up guy. Yes,
Speaker 4: and man, yeah, that is tough. That's that's a tough scene.
Speaker 2: It's a tough's Also what's interesting is that it's a
Speaker 2: tough scene in light of the rest of the lore.
Speaker 2: It's a really nice because they've been fighting, bickering for
Speaker 2: this whole cycle of episodes and like you're, yeah, things
Speaker 2: are breaking down, and this is a moment where like
Speaker 2: they get back on the same page and you're like.
Speaker 3: Tension eases, Yeah, because part of it, because like part
Speaker 3: of what's going on here is like Lousen is losing it, right,
Speaker 3: and this is the thing because like he's he's struggling
Speaker 3: to the part and like, yeah, everyone's fucking seen this, Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: your friend is jruggling fifteen products at once. They're losing
Speaker 3: their goddamn minds and then like the girl in your
Speaker 3: group was on top of it has to just slap
Speaker 3: them and be like locked the fuck in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Nola is a scary monster. She is on it.
Speaker 2: Well, it's made really clear in these cycles. She is
Speaker 2: not his subordinates.
Speaker 3: Oh no.
Speaker 2: They are handling very different parts of the operation, but
Speaker 2: she is not working under him. No, and she is
Speaker 2: like the one who like is the reason any of
Speaker 2: the shit works. Absolutely, And it's like that's the thing
Speaker 2: you see very often. There's a line in the season
Speaker 2: one where things are looking bad for them and he
Speaker 2: specifically asks her is your go bag ready? And he
Speaker 2: doesn't check his own, so he I think he understands
Speaker 2: if one of us has to get out, it should
Speaker 2: be you.
Speaker 4: She has to survive, yeah, utally yeah, and I think
Speaker 4: that is that is where things are going to are
Speaker 4: going to be moving.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean when when Cassie's coming back from Gorman, like
Speaker 4: Luthen picks him up and they start like arguing over
Speaker 4: like is the Gorman front like a real thing to
Speaker 4: like spend effort and like time on Like they're kind
Speaker 4: of all like like green, they don't really have good
Speaker 4: op sect they're not. They're just not like ready yet. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and and and Luthen pushes back and says to Cassie
Speaker 4: and like you're thinking small, you're thinking like a thief.
Speaker 4: And cassiean robuts like, no, I'm thinking like a soldier.
Speaker 4: And you have to think like a leader. You have
Speaker 4: to actually and like from Luten's point of view, a
Speaker 4: leader is like a very like manipulative role and like
Speaker 4: like you you have to start using these guys as
Speaker 4: pawns for this like larger game, because the empire is
Speaker 4: bigger than just Gorman. The Empire is bigger than us.
Speaker 4: We have to think bigger. You can't just you can't
Speaker 4: just think like a you know, a small illegalist who's
Speaker 4: gonna steal your food and not pay for parking and
Speaker 4: and just like get by while still doing crying. But
Speaker 4: like you know, try to like outsmart the empires like no,
Speaker 4: like we we are, we are, we are beyond that.
Speaker 3: We ain't robbing banks anymore.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly right, like we are beyond the illegalist like
Speaker 4: point of view. We have to start thinking like much more,
Speaker 4: much more like strategically and with like the bigger picture
Speaker 4: in mind, because like we are we are slowly getting
Speaker 4: closer to the Battle of Yavn here, Yeah, and I
Speaker 4: find I find their little argument they're really really interesting.
Speaker 4: And then their secondary meet up where where Cassian's mad
Speaker 4: about Luthen checking in on bicks and I think, like
Speaker 4: I can understand both their point of view here is this.
Speaker 4: I think this is still a big fuck up from Cassian,
Speaker 4: but it's like it makes sense, but like, yeah, the
Speaker 4: relationship is getting like the better of him on like
Speaker 4: a strategic standpoint, like yet at this at this plot point,
Speaker 4: and Luthen still trusts them though, Like Luthen still gives
Speaker 4: them the assignment to kill doctor Gorst, so like Luthen
Speaker 4: still is able to work with these people, and he's
Speaker 4: still actually like oddly enough, like prioritizes empathy and like
Speaker 4: he says like like like empathy, like you can you
Speaker 4: cannot have a you cannot have a revolution without empathy.
Speaker 4: That's what this is built on. And and and even
Speaker 4: though he's a bit of a hard ass sometimes he
Speaker 4: still does like trust.
Speaker 3: Them, yeah, yeah, but he's he also is deliberately fucking
Speaker 3: with him like one of these Yeah, totally, he's very minific,
Speaker 3: Like he like he's like he's being unbelievaignaive like like
Speaker 3: one of the things here is like he deliberately gives
Speaker 3: Bis tells Bigs about this assignment that he was going
Speaker 3: to give her and then doesn't specifically just see if
Speaker 3: she would tell Andrew about it. And that's how Andrew
Speaker 3: would react to that, which is like, don't do that.
Speaker 3: That's unhinged, Like that's like not And this is like
Speaker 3: also part of like, you know, the thing you have
Speaker 3: to like balance youre right is like you know, you
Speaker 3: have to be able to balance like getting people to
Speaker 3: do things that need to be done with like not
Speaker 3: being a fucking asshole and alienating everyone. And this is
Speaker 3: like a and especially when you yourself, because like Luthor
Speaker 3: is also falling apart.
Speaker 4: And he's not going to change. He's not he's never
Speaker 4: gonna change.
Speaker 3: He's not changing, but.
Speaker 2: He's like he's like the thing though, that's not his job, right,
Speaker 2: His job was to make the later stages of this
Speaker 2: where people act differently inevitable totally, and he understands that
Speaker 2: you need something that horrifies people to do that, right, like,
Speaker 2: and that's that's all he's trying to set up Luth.
Speaker 4: It is absolutely like a moral very manipulative I am.
Speaker 4: I am still I'm still teaming even though he like
Speaker 4: sucks as a dude, like I would hate to work
Speaker 4: with him. Well, it's like like I still gotta the team.
Speaker 6: Luthen in the yet Yeah, well I would just say
Speaker 6: like like if the thing is like, if you try
Speaker 6: to act like this in like an actual organizing space,
Speaker 6: this isn't gonna work.
Speaker 3: You're just gonna.
Speaker 7: Put organization's not doing that, right, That's that's what I'm
Speaker 7: saying though, right right, Like like this this works because
Speaker 7: of the exact specific thing that he's doing, which is he.
Speaker 3: Is the guy who is coordinating a bunch of networks.
Speaker 3: The thing is, in order for networks to hold together
Speaker 3: and work, people have to have relationships with each other.
Speaker 3: And if you behave like this in that situation, it
Speaker 3: will funck out everything. And this is like the conflict
Speaker 3: that's happening, like even inside of his own limited network
Speaker 3: is that like he's he is like fucking with everyone.
Speaker 3: And we'll get to that with the lesbian.
Speaker 2: You see you see how you see the different levels
Speaker 2: at which networks work. Here, like the Gorman Front works
Speaker 2: because they're all friends and neighbors who care about each other, right,
Speaker 2: and that's why they are like real, tactile, solid, and
Speaker 2: they're able to stick together even though they're not. They
Speaker 2: don't have perfect competence. We see Saws group where someone
Speaker 2: made the comment that like, well, he's basically a fascist
Speaker 2: and because of like the hold, he has a nice group,
Speaker 2: which is not what I saw at all. I saw
Speaker 2: as soon as he shoots.
Speaker 4: A spy, he has but he's not a fashion.
Speaker 2: He has to prove to the rest of his group
Speaker 2: that guy was a spy and needed to die. And
Speaker 2: once he does, they're like, all right, well back to
Speaker 2: the job, right, I mean yeah, But and he gets
Speaker 2: he has to get fucked you know, he gets fucked
Speaker 2: up as part of like the just the necessity of
Speaker 2: it's it's literally the only thing he has in between
Speaker 2: acts of terrifying violence. But that's how that group bands together.
Speaker 2: And then we see, you know, these smaller cells of experts,
Speaker 2: right who they have their connections with each other and
Speaker 2: they have their little moments of vengeance and that's what
Speaker 2: keeps them going. And the only thing that keeps Luthen
Speaker 2: going is the pure logic of the calculus of what
Speaker 2: he's put together. That's all he's got.
Speaker 4: Yeah, information collecting boyfriend, always collecting information. All right, let's
Speaker 4: talk about the space lesbians who are running the French Resistance.
Speaker 4: So I liked. I liked a lot of what they
Speaker 4: did with them in this episode. I liked how they
Speaker 4: were like reuniting. I liked the way they talked about
Speaker 4: the on again, off again style of their relationship based
Speaker 4: on like having to live in this rebellion like life,
Speaker 4: like they can't always see each other, they're always being
Speaker 4: moved around by Luthen. But they both specifically took this
Speaker 4: assignment like hoping and like and I think like knowing
Speaker 4: that it would mean that they could see each other.
Speaker 4: So I liked the development that we had with them
Speaker 4: as people who like your are like in the same spaces,
Speaker 4: but do not have the luxury of actually having like
Speaker 4: a life together at this point in time. They advised
Speaker 4: the little resistance group there, they're much more friendly than
Speaker 4: than Cassie and is.
Speaker 3: Oh, well they do come in or like all right,
Speaker 3: you motherfuckers like you people are amateur yes, oh yeah,
Speaker 3: yeah yeah, no fucking guns.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like no, Like, I guess they have more
Speaker 4: of a willingness to put up with the amateurs than
Speaker 4: Cassie does. I think, I think is kind of what's
Speaker 4: going on there. And you know, they're they're hoping that
Speaker 4: after this mission's over, maybe they'll be able to spend
Speaker 4: more time together. And then Cinta does get killed. And
Speaker 4: I've seen a lot of criticism of this. I've seen
Speaker 4: people invoking like a like a like a barrier gaze
Speaker 4: type crope, and I don't think that's my personal outlook
Speaker 4: on what's going on here. I think a lot of
Speaker 4: people die throughout this show. We had Brasso die, and
Speaker 4: this sort of thing like just happens.
Speaker 2: That's that's the point is, Yes, she's really good, she's
Speaker 2: really good, she's incredibly it.
Speaker 4: Feels so like purposeless and like welcome to war. I
Speaker 4: think that is part of the problem, part of the point.
Speaker 4: And like the upset like a reaction that you have
Speaker 4: I think is like that's that's showing I think the
Speaker 4: strength of the strength of this, Like it sucks to
Speaker 4: see a lesbian get killed, but I think we're seeing
Speaker 4: so many relationships get like fall apart. We're seeing a
Speaker 4: lot of people get killed.
Speaker 2: Brasso didn't die, if for any better reason, right, this
Speaker 2: is just how war works.
Speaker 3: No, I mean I think I think the reason and
Speaker 3: this isn't It has been an interesting part of this.
Speaker 3: I talked to me about this last episode was like,
Speaker 3: this is the most like, this is by far the
Speaker 3: most like gay Star Wars we've ever had, right, and
Speaker 3: it's the most like I'm trying to think of the
Speaker 3: number of other shows the.
Speaker 2: Only time they didn't lean away from it or insinuate it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, like well just kissing this episode. It's like
Speaker 3: I'm legitimately like I'm like racking my brain. I'm trying
Speaker 3: to think of like the number of like major TV
Speaker 3: shows I have ever seen in my life run non
Speaker 3: white lesbian gets to kiss someone. It's like not that high,
Speaker 3: And I think that's why people just like, yeah, like
Speaker 3: this is this is this is an this is the
Speaker 3: best representation of my culture, which is like the leftist
Speaker 3: lesbian Yeah, you're gonna see each other I've ever seen
Speaker 3: and then it's like, yeah, she fucking dies. It's it hurts.
Speaker 4: I think like we were able to watch these characters
Speaker 4: develop over the course of like a few arcs, right,
Speaker 4: Like we saw these in the Aldanni Heist, where they
Speaker 4: were like basically the only two people to survive besides
Speaker 4: casting and like everyone else on that ant heist died, right, Yeah,
Speaker 4: so they the lesbian's made it out of that. They
Speaker 4: they struggle to maintain their relationship in the interim as
Speaker 4: as things happened. They had this emotional reunion here. I think,
Speaker 4: you know, you could you could make an argument maybe
Speaker 4: you'd be better to kill Val. But we've had more
Speaker 4: development with Voal because of being related to mon So, Like, yeah,
Speaker 4: it is, it is, it is. It is tough with
Speaker 4: like the disposability, but that is that is that that
Speaker 4: is a part of us fighting in an environment like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not that they're disposable, it's that combat is random,
Speaker 2: like and fuck ups are random, like this this exact thing.
Speaker 2: Somebody screws up and shoots when they're not supposed to,
Speaker 2: and the bullet doesn't stop. Happens all the goddamn time,
Speaker 2: and like it's part of what fucks people up. If
Speaker 2: you talk to people about there who have war experiences,
Speaker 2: one of the things that will fuck someone up the
Speaker 2: most is watching someone they know and care about get
Speaker 2: turned into pink mist. And it's usually a situation where
Speaker 2: somebody hits or steps on or whatever an ied or
Speaker 2: takes a rocket a bad time, and there's this person
Speaker 2: that you knew and you care about and they're three
Speaker 2: dimensional to you and you probably plan to keep knowing
Speaker 2: them after that, and then they're just fucking missed and
Speaker 2: it just it shatters people's minds and that's what happens.
Speaker 4: Like and then like yeah, vow's little like speech to
Speaker 4: to Sam afterwards, being like like you are you now
Speaker 4: have to live your entire life knowing that you took
Speaker 4: this person away, and like every action you take for
Speaker 4: the rest of your life is going to be like
Speaker 4: it's gonna be all in all an attempt to like
Speaker 4: make up for this, Like every every every imperial you
Speaker 4: kill will just be one for Santa. Yeah, because like
Speaker 4: the Cinta was like a professional. This is like the
Speaker 4: life that she led, Like you will never be able
Speaker 4: to understand how important she was. You'll never be able
Speaker 4: to understand like how good she was at this and
Speaker 4: you're like a fucking like French kid. Yeah, like you
Speaker 4: don't know what you're doing, and now you have to
Speaker 4: spend your entire life making up for it. And it
Speaker 4: was a very hard speech, but I think Val did
Speaker 4: a really good job with that and like understanding like
Speaker 4: the political necessity of like you can't let this be
Speaker 4: like in vain either, like you have to like push
Speaker 4: back guy using him, making making his life like worthwhile. Now, yeah,
Speaker 4: and I mean yeah, it's it was rough. I mean
Speaker 4: I would love I would love more more like gay
Speaker 4: characters living happy life in Star Wars, but we rarely
Speaker 4: see anyone living a happy life in Star Wars.
Speaker 2: This is not about happy lives.
Speaker 4: I also, that's not what we're seeing love.
Speaker 2: The thing that doesn't get a huge amount of attention
Speaker 2: in these episodes but is interesting to me is the
Speaker 2: guy that he was he pulled that Matt or whatever
Speaker 2: his name was, Samama, the guy that Sama man told
Speaker 2: his gun to try to stop. Is just this random
Speaker 2: Gorman dude who's like, hey, no, I'm not gonna like leave,
Speaker 2: this is like my city. What are you doing here?
Speaker 4: What's going?
Speaker 2: Realized he carries her body like he goes with them,
Speaker 2: you know, and we it's kind of unclear is he
Speaker 2: likes some sort of spot or is he literally a
Speaker 2: Gorman who it the whole time was looking for a
Speaker 2: way to get involved, and once he realized what was happening.
Speaker 2: He's like, yeah, these are my people. I'm with this.
Speaker 3: Was that the guy from the meeting or was it
Speaker 3: a different the one from the He wasn't he wasn't
Speaker 3: the men?
Speaker 2: Yeah okay, yeah yeah yeah, so I guess he just
Speaker 2: wasn't in the inner circle. But like he hops on,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but no, I do understand like the racial disposability
Speaker 4: and like the barrier gaze like aspect that could be
Speaker 4: read into this. It's a tough thing to to thread here.
Speaker 4: And I think if if you view this in context
Speaker 4: of all of the people that we have seen like
Speaker 4: get killed, like the entire Aldannie Crewe, like Brass so basically,
Speaker 4: you know, the droid from season one gets like abandoned
Speaker 4: on that planet, I think, like it does it does
Speaker 4: make sense. I think in that larger context, I think
Speaker 4: there's a way that not everyone like has to die
Speaker 4: to lead to rogue one like besides Cassian, No, not everyone,
Speaker 4: but but someone like Since and like frankly, like someone
Speaker 4: like Santa, the type of militant she is, they do
Speaker 4: have a short life span, like that is that is
Speaker 4: part of the specific thing Sinta is doing is like
Speaker 4: you burn fast, and you burn bright and sometimes you
Speaker 4: will die in a way that's like really purposeless, and
Speaker 4: that fucking sucks. And that happens in war, that happens
Speaker 4: in like activist spaces, that happens that happens in the
Speaker 4: United States with people here, and often they are like
Speaker 4: non white gay people. Yep, Like that's what happened in Atlanta.
Speaker 4: So like these these things happen.
Speaker 2: The number of people who committed suicide too after twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: you know, like, yeah, do we.
Speaker 4: Have anything else? You want to want to say me?
Speaker 4: Do do you have anything? When I close out on as
Speaker 4: the resident non white lesbian on the podcast, they killed
Speaker 4: by lesbian. So it's sad.
Speaker 5: There aren't What.
Speaker 3: Is the next time I'm getting a non white lesbian
Speaker 3: in Star Wars is gonna work? Like I Am going
Speaker 3: to be right, like raising a black flag over Shensend.
Speaker 3: But the next time we get another one of.
Speaker 4: These characters of the series, you know, we had we
Speaker 4: we had a non white lesbian uh in acolyte who
Speaker 4: also taught it. Yeah, yeah, I do not see people
Speaker 4: talking about the barrier gay stuff with the acolyte as well.
Speaker 2: Nobody because.
Speaker 3: Because it wasn't bad, but I think it's.
Speaker 4: Also worth I think it's also worth remembering like like
Speaker 4: this is this is a show starring like a non
Speaker 4: white leading role, like like a Cassine is not white.
Speaker 4: So I think the racial politics are a little bit
Speaker 4: a little bit more more complex. I think some people
Speaker 4: are discussing.
Speaker 3: But yeah, all right.
Speaker 2: Well these episodes have been amazing. Everybody get into inhalance
Speaker 2: and steal fuel from the military. That's the message of
Speaker 2: andand or.
Speaker 4: Run wild.
Speaker 2: Don't do that. That's a joke.
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Speaker 1: could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.