Speaker 1: Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may
Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses
Speaker 1: alleged physical, verbal, and sexual abuse from iHeartRadio and Neon
Speaker 1: thirty three. I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona,
Speaker 1: the story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing
Speaker 1: his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and
Speaker 1: escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting
Speaker 1: Robert Fisher, and I need your help. The Tale of
Speaker 1: Robert Fisher now takes us from the arid pine forests
Speaker 1: of the Arizona High Desert to the drizzly, misbeaten coasts
Speaker 1: of Oregon, specifically Astoria, home of the Goonies, those treasure
Speaker 1: hunting misfits of cinema lore and seventy four year old
Speaker 1: Greg Anderson, the man who found Mary Fisher's forerunner in
Speaker 1: the woods in two thousand and one one grade. We
Speaker 1: knock on a door. A woman answers Greg's out back.
Speaker 1: She says, in the metal shed. A door opens slowly.
Speaker 1: We hear a voice, grizzled, gravelly. Greg invites us in.
Speaker 1: We cross into his dimly lit layer shadows slice chilly air.
Speaker 1: His face is weathered, his hair white. We sit down
Speaker 1: at his desk explain who we are. He agrees to
Speaker 1: speak for the first time since police called him a
Speaker 1: person of interest and the media labeled him a vagabond.
Speaker 1: They call you vagabond.
Speaker 2: That was in the paper.
Speaker 1: Greg is a recovering alcoholic many years ago. When he
Speaker 1: quit drinking, everyone told him to socialize. But Greg is
Speaker 1: a solitary guy.
Speaker 2: So I didn't go resocialize. I would leave.
Speaker 1: He spent summers in Oregon and winters in Arizona laying
Speaker 1: concrete concrete work.
Speaker 2: You could tie out there in the slabs and know
Speaker 2: where to come out and bother you about anything.
Speaker 1: When he wasn't working, Greg retreated into the wild one time.
Speaker 1: He spent three months in near total isolation. After the
Speaker 1: first month and a half.
Speaker 2: He came back in bod groceries, did everything, didn't talk
Speaker 2: to anybody. The only thing I said was twenty bucks
Speaker 2: on pump number three and that was it. Then drove
Speaker 2: back out for another month and a half.
Speaker 1: To be alone for so long, you have.
Speaker 2: To be tough in your head. Your own mind will
Speaker 2: tear you apart if you let it. Out there, you'll
Speaker 2: just rip yourself up.
Speaker 1: Greg spent much of his time hiking. Other than hiking,
Speaker 1: what would you do? How would you kill time.
Speaker 2: Just wandering around? I didn't really like sitting that much,
Speaker 2: and I'd have a little pot out there, but I'd
Speaker 2: have to watch that. If you smoke some pot, you're
Speaker 2: not going to go for the walk. Take it with you,
Speaker 2: roll up a joint and put it in your sock
Speaker 2: and go. But then you're smoking it when you're out there,
Speaker 2: up on top of a mountain, and then you're too
Speaker 2: stone to get back down, and you think that's a
Speaker 2: stupid thing to do.
Speaker 1: How do you find the balance between moving, moving, moving,
Speaker 1: always moving, hiking, walking, driving, traveling, and sitting still and
Speaker 1: being able to sit with your thoughts. Where's the balance
Speaker 1: there for you?
Speaker 2: I think the Arizona stuff gave me the ability to
Speaker 2: sit and let things just go the way they're going
Speaker 2: to go, and not get all worried about shit. I
Speaker 2: see all the people now are looking at their phones
Speaker 2: all the time. You've got to have somebody else around
Speaker 2: or something going on. And I can sit stare at
Speaker 2: the wall and not feel bad at all. After about
Speaker 2: four hours of just looking at the wall. Somebody would say, oh,
Speaker 2: you're what is it when you sit try to calm
Speaker 2: yourself down, your meditation meditating? Yeah, well you're just sitting meditating.
Speaker 2: Well I don't know exactly what that is. Maybe I'm
Speaker 2: just sitting looking at the wall, and I can do
Speaker 2: that pretty easy.
Speaker 1: Did you ever worry that being alone for such a
Speaker 1: long period of time would literally drive you crazy?
Speaker 2: You can, yeah, yeah I thought that.
Speaker 1: Were you scared about it?
Speaker 2: No, but you know you got to do something about it.
Speaker 2: When you come in and you're overwhelmed by the store,
Speaker 2: a grocery store with all the signage and crab it's
Speaker 2: just overmodulating. I look at a wall of foot writing
Speaker 2: and shit, I can't see any of it. None of
Speaker 2: it makes any sense. It's like having three people talk
Speaker 2: to you can't understand any of one of them.
Speaker 1: A society that assaults your eyes and ears, trying to
Speaker 1: twist your brain and empty your wallet. I consider myself
Speaker 1: an introvert. People are surprised because I speak to people
Speaker 1: for a living, but I like my alone time. But
Speaker 1: I can imagine at a certain point, not only are
Speaker 1: you alone, but it's so quiet, it's so peaceful, out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, fire don't make no noise. The first thing I
Speaker 2: noticed is fire is quiet or doesn't pomp or snaprinding,
Speaker 2: But it's just dead silent.
Speaker 1: What did it mean to be out in the wilderness
Speaker 1: to you? Did you find that to be a spiritual experience?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I never failed alone, never failed alone. Always talked
Speaker 2: to Jesus, talked to somebody. You're fine. I did more, bitch,
Speaker 2: and as far as one on one with Jesus, I'd
Speaker 2: be bitching about stuff. I don't use religious terms like
Speaker 2: rebuke you and all that. Hey, fucker, how come you
Speaker 2: do this shit like that? What's going on? Why did
Speaker 2: you get to why do you kill these little kids
Speaker 2: that didn't do anything wrong? I don't see the reasoning
Speaker 2: for that. Don't give me this god words and mysterious
Speaker 2: ways shit That don't cut it. That just catch twenty two.
Speaker 2: If you keep a good bitch on, you're in good
Speaker 2: shape because you're talking to yourself and you're not letting
Speaker 2: your brain wander off by itself and get you all screwy.
Speaker 2: But I can see where you stay in that desert
Speaker 2: too long and you're banning for gold or digging a
Speaker 2: cave or something that you'll turn into a weirdo after
Speaker 2: a while. Anything you want out in the.
Speaker 1: Desert, including your sanity, you're gonna have.
Speaker 2: To work for or do something to get to keep it.
Speaker 1: What about food? Would you bring your food with you?
Speaker 1: Was there anything to scavengers? Did you hunt?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: I brought my own food with be all time. About
Speaker 2: a top ramen, about a chili and just anything that
Speaker 2: you're dealing with, just dry food or can food. And
Speaker 2: I didn't have any refrigerator any of that. So any
Speaker 2: of the water, I'd mixed it with crystal light, you know,
Speaker 2: just have some flavor in it. A lot of crackers
Speaker 2: and peanut butter at a different kind of bee engine,
Speaker 2: a lot of noodle stuff, just add water and the packages.
Speaker 2: I can't even think of the names of it.
Speaker 1: If you weren't surviving off the land.
Speaker 2: No, not at all. No. I didn't fish and didn't hunt.
Speaker 1: As for water, Greg always kept an eye out for
Speaker 1: creeks and cattle holes, but for the most part he
Speaker 1: survived on the forty gallons he bought when he went
Speaker 1: into town.
Speaker 2: You shudn't use a lot of water for bathe in
Speaker 2: or shaven. You drank that water and you'd get pretty
Speaker 2: ripe out there. After a while, you take a sponge bath.
Speaker 2: I'd have my shower bag, put water in that with
Speaker 2: if you found some quick I'd fill up that shower
Speaker 2: bag and it'd get warm. In an hour, it'd be
Speaker 2: hotter and you'd have to put cold water in it
Speaker 2: to cool it off. Hang it from a tree and
Speaker 2: get a pretty good shower out of it. I use
Speaker 2: that a lot. If you left it in the sun,
Speaker 2: I'd throw it on top of the van, and if
Speaker 2: you forgot about it, it would pop and all the
Speaker 2: water and shoot out of it, and you have to
Speaker 2: buy another one.
Speaker 1: Greg also had to watch out for certain menaces of nature,
Speaker 1: including snakes.
Speaker 2: If you get three days warm, real warm snakes will
Speaker 2: wake up down the desert and they get out, and
Speaker 2: they're real cantankerous because they know it's not time to
Speaker 2: get up yet. They'll start rattling when you're two hundred
Speaker 2: feet away. You usually got to be right up on
Speaker 2: them and then they'll rattle. That's another thing. Some of
Speaker 2: them don't rattle. They sound like you left the air
Speaker 2: out of a truck tire. Just louder shit bears. I've
Speaker 2: running into bears a couple of times. I had a
Speaker 2: bear come in my van once in uh Signal Vite
Speaker 2: and they were saying on the news that the bears
Speaker 2: were coming down because there's nothing up there in the
Speaker 2: mountains from me. So they're catching a lot of them
Speaker 2: in scott today, Old a few other places. They're sitting
Speaker 2: in the trees. They're darkning them and getting them out
Speaker 2: of there. And I think the same night or same
Speaker 2: couple of nights, woke up, I had my door open
Speaker 2: all the time in the van because it's beautiful out
Speaker 2: the moon's out. Can't see out the door, and it's
Speaker 2: stunk smelled in there, and there was something right in
Speaker 2: front of it, and I couldn't see what it was
Speaker 2: because I'm just laying there. It got it backed up.
Speaker 2: They see the little goopy years they got sticking out
Speaker 2: of his head. Fuck, that's a bear. And I don't
Speaker 2: have a gun and around nothing, so jumped out of
Speaker 2: the way. His face was right here. I jumped in
Speaker 2: the back, grabbed my cooking pan and I just started
Speaker 2: beating it on his racket, just making a lot of noise,
Speaker 2: and bear you could see him got out. Let him
Speaker 2: pause out there and start walking away and then I
Speaker 2: could grab my flashlight and I was shining it at it,
Speaker 2: and you could see the red eyes just looking at me.
Speaker 2: Just don't fuck with me. I'll kick your ass. But
Speaker 2: that's the scaredest I've ever been in my life. And
Speaker 2: the bear was after I had a flat of strawberries
Speaker 2: and I'd been eating on it, so that brought that
Speaker 2: bear in there, and I wanted to give him all
Speaker 2: the strawberries, but you know, fed bears are dead bear
Speaker 2: they don't like to doing that humans. I was standing
Speaker 2: out in the middle of nowhere, just my van was
Speaker 2: somewhere else. I was on the side of this little
Speaker 2: dirt road. It was dusk. It was just about dark,
Speaker 2: all the way dark. He comes just in the BMW
Speaker 2: or something up the highway and then it turned came
Speaker 2: down to the gravel road, and then it turned down
Speaker 2: this little dinky road that I was on.
Speaker 1: Greg's the hidden behind brush and trees.
Speaker 2: This car pulled up right next to me. I could
Speaker 2: reach out and tap on the window if I wanted to,
Speaker 2: and they got out their crack pipe or something. People
Speaker 2: in business lady driving and the other guy in business
Speaker 2: suits that looked like they were lawyers or something. But
Speaker 2: they said to find a sneaky place to smoke the crack.
Speaker 2: And it was just weird that way out in the
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere like that, somebody pulls right up next
Speaker 2: to you. And where was that? That was up on
Speaker 2: the rim, not too far from where the car was at.
Speaker 1: Just to be clear, you're saying that was a whole difference.
Speaker 2: If it was just to say, weird shit happens out there,
Speaker 2: that somebody to pull right up, I mean, I could
Speaker 2: have got them in big trouble. They looked like they
Speaker 2: were in nice professional people.
Speaker 1: I get the sense that your personalities to handle that
Speaker 1: would be don't mess with them. Yeah, just kind of
Speaker 1: keep clear, do your own thing, and don't start any trouble.
Speaker 1: They won't start any trouble.
Speaker 2: With exactly conflict avoidant's personality. They used to accuse me
Speaker 2: that in American lake.
Speaker 1: Out here, it's a safety mechanism. Isolated corners of the
Speaker 1: American Southwest have always drawn out laws, people gridge to
Speaker 1: avoid desperation and ferocity stalk this thirsty landscape. Many incidents
Speaker 1: never make the news. A few do, including the Tyson
Speaker 1: gang July nineteen seventy eight. Gary Tyson's three sons break
Speaker 1: him and another man, Randy greenawalt out of prison. The
Speaker 1: Tyson gang goes on a rampage, killing six people, including
Speaker 1: a two year old boy, on the back rows of Colorado,
Speaker 1: New Mexico, and Arizona. On day twelve, the gang barrels
Speaker 1: through a checkpoint in a stolen van. Bullets rain down.
Speaker 1: One son dies, two are captured, along with Randy. Gary
Speaker 1: disappears ten days later. He's found in the desert.
Speaker 4: Dead Danny Ray Horning.
Speaker 1: May nineteen ninety two. Horning, a bank robber, breaks out
Speaker 1: of the same prison as Gary Tyson. For two months,
Speaker 1: he zigzags through Arizona, eating cacti. He makes his way
Speaker 1: to the Grand Canyon, where he kidnaps two taurusts and
Speaker 1: slips past police. Media call him Arizona's Rambo. Speeding down
Speaker 1: a highway one hundred miles an hour, Horning shoots at
Speaker 1: a cop. He crashes, but escapes again to Sedona, where
Speaker 1: he escapes again just kidding. He's caught.
Speaker 4: The Four Quarters Fugitives.
Speaker 1: May nineteen ninety eight, the spot where Colorado, Utah, New Mexico,
Speaker 1: and Arizona meet. Three men kill a cop and steal
Speaker 1: a water truck. Their plan is to rob a casino,
Speaker 1: destroy a power plant, or blow up a dam. They fail,
Speaker 1: They die, or at least two of them do. Police
Speaker 1: find a body at a riverside campsite. Thirteen months later,
Speaker 1: on Halloween at sunset, a group of hunters find another
Speaker 1: body on a mesa. Both men died of gunshot wounds.
Speaker 1: Did they commit suicide or were they killed by the
Speaker 1: final fugitive, Jason mcveen. No one knows. Mcven slips away,
Speaker 1: melting into the red desert. Nine years later, a cowboy
Speaker 1: finds his skeletonized remains in an isolated canyon next to
Speaker 1: an AK forty seven, five hundred rounds of AMMO five
Speaker 1: pipe bombs and survival gear.
Speaker 4: Frank Bannashley Junior and Senior.
Speaker 1: December ninth, nineteen ninety nine. Tenny Gatewood Junior is the
Speaker 1: only officer on duty on the Ford Apache Indian Reservation,
Speaker 1: one cop covering one point seven million acres. While struggling
Speaker 1: with two burglary suspects, he shot in the head with
Speaker 1: his own gun. Frank Banashley Senior and his son, Frank Junior,
Speaker 1: flee into the wild. A massive manhunt ensues. The next day,
Speaker 1: a police helicopter spots two campfires in the forest below.
Speaker 1: The cops catch the Banashlees by chance. Robert Fischer is
Speaker 1: nearby when the murder occurs. The final photo we have
Speaker 1: of him was taken that day in the Apache Sickreaves
Speaker 1: National Forests. So, yes, these wild lands are populated not
Speaker 1: only by bears and bats and pinion pines and dust
Speaker 1: storms and monsoons, but also by murderous men, and yes,
Speaker 1: Greg Gunderson wants to avoid them.
Speaker 2: His conflict AVOIDANTCE personality.
Speaker 1: Comes in handy April nineteenth, two thousand and one. Greg
Speaker 1: Gunderson is driving home Arizona to Oregon. As he rumbles
Speaker 1: up Young Road to Highway two sixty on top of
Speaker 1: the muggy on rim afternoon evaporates into a darkening sky.
Speaker 1: The weather worsens.
Speaker 2: You're just a slushy snow was coming down. I figure, well,
Speaker 2: it's going to get crappy. You got to get a
Speaker 2: spot before it gets dark or you're never going to
Speaker 2: have a fire.
Speaker 1: You were just transitting, You weren't planning on camping at
Speaker 1: that time for a while.
Speaker 2: No, it was the weather made me want to just
Speaker 2: and it was getting dark and I wanted to scoop
Speaker 2: up to firewood because it was cold. It's either that
Speaker 2: or when it's snowing like that, you're going to sit
Speaker 2: in the van or go to sleep at five o'clock
Speaker 2: getting dark early, so you want some firewood anyway, So
Speaker 2: you've got to find a camp spot when it's still
Speaker 2: light enough to find some firewood.
Speaker 1: Greg knows a great spot, but it's twenty minutes south.
Speaker 1: He already passed it, so he turns around, drives back,
Speaker 1: takes a left onto our forest service road and parks.
Speaker 2: The sun was already down. It was just the end
Speaker 2: of the evening, darker than this, but it was getting
Speaker 2: down there to where it was fifteen minutes it could
Speaker 2: be dark.
Speaker 1: What was it like to be out there at night?
Speaker 2: Couldn't see it starts that night, But normally I liked
Speaker 2: it at night because you've got to see the moon
Speaker 2: go through its changes. It's out every night. There was
Speaker 2: nights when midnight the moon would be a full moon.
Speaker 2: If you were down in the Superstitions, there's a zinc
Speaker 2: mine area that they used to haul zink out of them.
Speaker 2: The roads are white, just white white. So when the
Speaker 2: moon's out midnight, that bright You can see a tarantula
Speaker 2: two hundred feet away walking across the road at midnight,
Speaker 2: which is pretty amazing to see that bark. It's just
Speaker 2: bright out at night. Saw a lot of shit the
Speaker 2: rim especially. You see a lot of satellite stuff, a
Speaker 2: lot of shit moving up in the air. You stare
Speaker 2: at the stars, you're all over the place. They start
Speaker 2: moving on.
Speaker 1: You tonight, though. The only dots Greg sees in the
Speaker 1: sky are the snowflakes falling on his eyes. Was it
Speaker 1: heavy or just kind of white?
Speaker 2: It was mushy. It messed with your vision, but it
Speaker 2: wasn't sticking real good.
Speaker 1: So there wasn't like accumulation on the ground.
Speaker 2: A little bit, yeah, a little bit, but not. I
Speaker 2: can still see the wood. I remember picking up.
Speaker 1: The branches, walking down a tiny rutted road, gathering firewood.
Speaker 1: Darkness falling, the final glimmers of muted light on the horizon.
Speaker 1: Greg sees a glint of silver.
Speaker 2: I noticed this carpark truck SUV out no one's and
Speaker 2: he wasn't camping, that was just parked. You could tell,
Speaker 2: you know, I could say, you could see if that's
Speaker 2: a drug deal or that's somebody's staying forever. If the
Speaker 2: blue tarps come out, they're staying for a long time.
Speaker 2: If there's any transmissions laying around, they've been there for
Speaker 2: two months. You'd just tell it, you know, win a
Speaker 2: bago just louder in hell with the old bikes strapped
Speaker 2: to the side of it. You see one of them
Speaker 2: every so often, or a school bus.
Speaker 1: Have you been in that area before?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, so you.
Speaker 1: Were familiar with like some of the camp area of
Speaker 1: the camp.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll try. I knew that that fore runner was.
Speaker 2: That's not how you camped there. He was parked in
Speaker 2: the wrong spot. Like he just got out of the
Speaker 2: car and left, and that's pretty much what he had done.
Speaker 1: I think what about it. Immediately said something's wrong here.
Speaker 2: The way the car was sitting there, it wasn't level.
Speaker 2: If you're going to spend the night, your level of
Speaker 2: the car up that kind of that's the first thing
Speaker 2: you'd do. And then parking the spot, maybe that you
Speaker 2: could have a little fire. The fire pits all over
Speaker 2: the place. You just got to move the rocks around
Speaker 2: where you want it. That car wasn't in there right,
Speaker 2: and it was too far out in the middle of
Speaker 2: nowhere to be a drug deal. The drug deals you
Speaker 2: see right outside of town. You see somebody leaning on
Speaker 2: the roof of their car, standing there out in the
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere. Well, he's waiting for somebody. Looked like
Speaker 2: somebody had just abandoned that car. It just looked odd
Speaker 2: the way he was sitting in. And that's not even
Speaker 2: how you go in that spot. You drive over here
Speaker 2: and you build a little fire over there. It's pretty
Speaker 2: blase a little spot. But it wouldn't camp angled like that.
Speaker 2: I parked flat. I mean, it just dead flat. That's
Speaker 2: the way I wanted. If not, I'll jack up my
Speaker 2: bed with some books underneath his legs. But you don't
Speaker 2: want to be sleeping downhill if you're sleeping in the rig.
Speaker 2: And he was parked just a little off. I don't
Speaker 2: know if it was right, so he was down or
Speaker 2: the front or whatever, but he wasn't He wasn't flat.
Speaker 1: Do you remember seeing anything else when you saw the Forerunner?
Speaker 1: Did you see any camping equipment and any cans of food,
Speaker 1: any water bottles? Nothing, so just a car.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I thought it was just parked there.
Speaker 2: It wasn't camping, and it was parked at an angle
Speaker 2: and in the wrong spot, and it was just.
Speaker 1: Don't Greg knows it could be Fisher, but he isn't sure.
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to get involved. He's cold, he's tired.
Speaker 1: He walks back to his man. Did you see a
Speaker 1: fire that night?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Do you see any fires anywhere in the distance?
Speaker 2: No, you couldn't really see that far.
Speaker 1: But no, did you hear anything that night?
Speaker 2: Oh? There are no people up there.
Speaker 1: Did you light a fire that night?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I had a fire that night. Well, the
Speaker 2: branches that are in the stumps where they taper down there,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of resident in them that burned real good.
Speaker 1: Were you worried that if it was Robert Fisher, that
Speaker 1: he would see her fire and come after you.
Speaker 2: No, I was concerned about it, that that could be him,
Speaker 2: But it didn't seem like anybody was there, just from
Speaker 2: the looks of it, like there's not even a chair, nothing,
Speaker 2: just there's just nothing.
Speaker 1: Were you worried that he would come over and kill
Speaker 1: you and take your van?
Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking like that, but that would cross through
Speaker 2: your mind real quick. But yeah, what would I do?
Speaker 2: I din'te a gun. I never took a gun with me.
Speaker 1: Did you think, well, if he comes at me, how
Speaker 1: am I going to protect myself?
Speaker 2: I didn't even think like that.
Speaker 1: But just in case. Greg stands in the dark, away
Speaker 1: from his fire in the woods, watching for movement. He
Speaker 1: sees none. Between when you got to that spot and
Speaker 1: when you left the next day. Do you recall seeing
Speaker 1: or hearing any vehicles pass by?
Speaker 2: You go a long time up? She had a vehicle
Speaker 2: up here? No, I don't remember any.
Speaker 1: Cold air biting his face, exhaustion his mind. Greg nods
Speaker 1: in and out of lucidity. How much sleep did you
Speaker 1: got that night?
Speaker 2: Oh? Probably not much? Two hours? Maybe?
Speaker 1: Were you in a sleeping bag of tent?
Speaker 2: Sleeping bag? I stay in the back of the van.
Speaker 1: So you slept in the van that night? Yeah, So
Speaker 1: you didn't like go a little ways off in the
Speaker 1: woods to try to put some distance. Did you not
Speaker 1: worry that you would be a target?
Speaker 2: I didn't worry about that. No, I didn't. I was thinking,
Speaker 2: he's got more trouble than come over. Wuck with me.
Speaker 2: He's got to get out of there. If he did that, Jeff,
Speaker 2: somebody took him away.
Speaker 1: The next morning, I got up and I.
Speaker 2: Wanted to go over and see what kind of car.
Speaker 1: That was greg an axe Marine zig zags through the woods.
Speaker 2: I kind of walked in herky jerky behind the tree,
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to be a steady target if
Speaker 2: he was down there, I didn't know. I saw it
Speaker 2: down there, and I walked along this ridge looking down
Speaker 2: at it and got to where I got behind the
Speaker 2: back and I could see the back door, got the
Speaker 2: binoculars up and it had had the big four on it.
Speaker 2: I couldn't see the runner, but I know with the
Speaker 2: four on it, that's the four runner.
Speaker 1: He sees movement, there's the dog.
Speaker 2: Damn. I mean it kind of went up in increments.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a four runner. Holy shit. And that's
Speaker 2: a perfect place for somebody to go stash a car
Speaker 2: way up out in the middle of nowhere. And I
Speaker 2: started walking back to my campus spot and I saw
Speaker 2: the dog came up to me. It had porcupine crap
Speaker 2: around his mouth. It was real odd acting dog. I've
Speaker 2: had dogs all my life. He was looking at me
Speaker 2: and looking back at the car and looking at me
Speaker 2: and not wanting to go anywhere.
Speaker 1: Greg worries Robert is dead in the creek bed or
Speaker 1: alive waiting to shoot him.
Speaker 2: It's not threatening or anything. Then it was stop and
Speaker 2: look back again. So I was thinking maybe he was
Speaker 2: down in that, or that he went down in that cave.
Speaker 2: You know, you jump in that and you're gone. That
Speaker 2: was gobbling up enough water. There had to be a
Speaker 2: big opening down there.
Speaker 1: This is significant. On the morning of April twentieth, Greg
Speaker 1: sees water flowing into the cave Apex Cave, the one
Speaker 1: surrounded hours later by a swat team. It's impossible to
Speaker 1: imagine Robert Fisher choosing to hide in a water guzzling cave,
Speaker 1: entering via a tide opening at the bottom of a
Speaker 1: sinkhole like a rat trying to crawl down a bathtub
Speaker 1: drain as water circles and empties. Did you ever go
Speaker 1: in that cave?
Speaker 2: No, you'd have to be a speed lunker to do that,
Speaker 2: you know, and be tied off and all that. One
Speaker 2: of them deals is dark. You wouldn't even know what
Speaker 2: was happening. You could call five hundred feet before you
Speaker 2: even knew what happened. No, I'm not that bold.
Speaker 1: Greg hustles back to his campsite, puts out his fire,
Speaker 1: and then I left and went up to Heber.
Speaker 2: That's where the road comes out at. I went to
Speaker 2: their mini mart there at Hebert, and I remember one
Speaker 2: of the only numbers I had was Jim Jacka. I
Speaker 2: called him because I didn't want to call the cops myself.
Speaker 1: Why why does Greg flee? Why does he disappear for
Speaker 1: a month. My first guest before I meet him is
Speaker 1: that he's trafficking drugs commercially, But that's not true. The
Speaker 1: answer is simple.
Speaker 2: Because I had some pot that I wanted to save
Speaker 2: and use on the trip back, and if I called
Speaker 2: the cops, they're going to say you stay right there,
Speaker 2: we'll be right up there, don't go nowhere, And I
Speaker 2: would have to throw that pot out because the dogs
Speaker 2: would be over barking at me. You know, they want
Speaker 2: my pot and I have to get rid of it,
Speaker 2: trying to be a nice guy. Well fuck that, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm out of here. You call it in, Jim. It's
Speaker 2: forest road, YadA YadA, and it's a Forerunner I don't
Speaker 2: remember the collar, gray or something, and there's a dog
Speaker 2: there and it's an Australian sheep dog or something like that,
Speaker 2: blue whatever. He's got porcupine needles on. So that was
Speaker 2: enough information that they knew he shouldn't have known what
Speaker 2: kind of dog that is? Unmust he saw it?
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about the call when you called
Speaker 1: the jackas What did you say?
Speaker 2: I said, what do you used to call it? Dickhead? Hey, dickhead?
Speaker 2: How you doing? Yeah? Whatever? Dream? I said, I think
Speaker 2: I found that Robert Fisher's car and write this down,
Speaker 2: give him the forest service road? And he had a dog.
Speaker 2: The dog is this? You got a kind of dog?
Speaker 2: Said for a runner? And I pretty much nailed it.
Speaker 2: I said, call that in for me because I'm having to.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know where I told him, I said, patient.
Speaker 2: Maybe I didn't want them guys telling me to stay
Speaker 2: there and disobey the law, because if I get Jim
Speaker 2: to do it, then I'm scott free. I'm fine.
Speaker 1: So you were just worried because he got weed with
Speaker 1: you thought they would.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd been saving it for myself for the trip back.
Speaker 2: I had a whole month I and I wandered around.
Speaker 2: It was just a little bit of pot there. But
Speaker 2: I'm not throwing that ship out just because they're going
Speaker 2: to come up there with her dogs barking and go
Speaker 2: do your job out there. Look for Fisher quit looking
Speaker 2: at my van.
Speaker 1: Do you think that's why they were suspicious later, because
Speaker 1: you left town and they didn't understand why you left
Speaker 1: without speaking to them.
Speaker 2: I think so. But they had heard from everybody that
Speaker 2: this guy just he doesn't have an address, he didn't
Speaker 2: have a phone. You don't give a shit about what
Speaker 2: you guys are doing. I don't know how you find him.
Speaker 2: I don't know what. You're not gonna call him, you know,
Speaker 2: just when he shows up, you'll find him. But I
Speaker 2: kind of took pride in that you can't touch me.
Speaker 2: Don't matter what kind of rich you are or whatever
Speaker 2: they are, you can't touch me. I'm separate from you guys.
Speaker 2: You do what you want, and I don't care. I
Speaker 2: don't care what's going on with Fisher. I don't like
Speaker 2: what he did, but my life is going to keep
Speaker 2: going this way. I'm gonna go over here and go
Speaker 2: over there and drive up towards Fregan fuck Fisher.
Speaker 1: On May eleventh, Greg speaks to Arizona detectives by phone
Speaker 1: from his brother's house in Oregon.
Speaker 2: I couldn't understand why there was such a big deal
Speaker 2: out of it. I didn't do anything. I just drive
Speaker 2: along and there's a car and a runner, and there's
Speaker 2: a dog.
Speaker 1: But the cops don't know that. All they know is
Speaker 1: that a critical witness fled the state. They immediately and
Speaker 1: understandably consider him a suspect.
Speaker 2: They were thinking that I probably picked him up and
Speaker 2: took him somewhere.
Speaker 1: Later, the FBI speaks to Greg at his mom's house.
Speaker 2: She's pissed because they were being real nice, and then
Speaker 2: they would throw these questions in that, well, what do
Speaker 2: you think about murder? What do you think about killing
Speaker 2: your slitting the throats to the kids or whatever. She
Speaker 2: didn't want to hear that shit, And I didn't really
Speaker 2: want to answer them questions. What I got to do
Speaker 2: with me slitting throats? What do you think about getting
Speaker 2: the fuck out of here? Pieces of shit?
Speaker 1: But you understand why they asked the questions.
Speaker 2: Kind of, But I don't think what they're going to
Speaker 2: get out of that? What do I think about cutting throats?
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1: What do you say? When I asked those questions?
Speaker 2: Probably the same thing. I'm sandy, what do you mean
Speaker 2: I found his car? I didn't cut throats. I don't
Speaker 2: know why you're asking that. What are you going to
Speaker 2: gain from that.
Speaker 1: I think for them that they just didn't have many leads.
Speaker 1: And then, yeah, well, am I just kind of desperate
Speaker 1: to find something?
Speaker 2: And I'm going to say, yeah, I love to cut
Speaker 2: throats on kids. I really like doing that. You got
Speaker 2: any kids I can slash up. I don't understand the
Speaker 2: reasoning for what if I said yes or no? What
Speaker 2: good'sa gonna do.
Speaker 1: Does it make you angry that Sto's the only FBI
Speaker 1: considered you suspect.
Speaker 2: No, not really, because they do that to everybody. I'd
Speaker 2: talked to a couple of guys since then. One guy
Speaker 2: who was the library in the city had found a
Speaker 2: body outside the library. Out there, unassuming guy just required
Speaker 2: he says, Man, they beat him up, thinking that he
Speaker 2: did it. He just didn't look like somebody's going to
Speaker 2: bother anybody. He was the one that was saying, if
Speaker 2: you see a body, just keep walking. You didn't see nothing,
Speaker 2: just keep going. Don't help him out because they're not
Speaker 2: going to take you that way.
Speaker 1: Unlike our next person of interest, who I'll get to
Speaker 1: in a minute, I'm confident Greg had nothing to do
Speaker 1: with the Fisher case other than finding Mary's SUV He's
Speaker 1: just an interesting character who lived a life many of
Speaker 1: us fantasize about. Unencumbered in nature. Greg used to sit
Speaker 1: on top of the muggy on rim as thunderstorms rolled in,
Speaker 1: sweeping down onto the force that expands below, turning dust
Speaker 1: to mud, pelting an agitated land with the life blood
Speaker 1: it greedily soaked up.
Speaker 2: Like fires in the trees. I think I've seen two
Speaker 2: burning at once. They go out because it's raining so hard.
Speaker 2: Whoever said lighting? And don't hit the same place twice?
Speaker 2: It's full of shit. I've watched it hit the same
Speaker 2: place ten times in a row.
Speaker 1: At seventy four, Greg now kills time alone tinkering with stuff.
Speaker 1: He sits at a desk, wrapped in shadows, puffs of
Speaker 1: breath dispersing into the dim light of his chili metal shed.
Speaker 1: He's drinking again, lightly, not like the old days.
Speaker 2: The VA to over here a while back. You've got
Speaker 2: curosis the liver. Oh yeah, I've deserved that, and I
Speaker 2: should have. My lungs should be shot, but they're fine.
Speaker 2: I smoked for fifty years. I've been going through the
Speaker 2: VA and everything's come out fine, all the tests, and
Speaker 2: I don't deserve that. There's too many people that don't
Speaker 2: smoke and don't drink any die early, and I want
Speaker 2: to have day do wrong. I've just been trying to
Speaker 2: kill myself my whole life.
Speaker 1: Seems like Greg is content, he's prepared to die. He
Speaker 1: doesn't want to, but he's ready. And really, when we're old,
Speaker 1: what more can we ask?
Speaker 2: I would have a do not resuscitate, but you got
Speaker 2: to do much paperwork for that.
Speaker 1: Do you feel a peace?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm feeling more than I have in a lot
Speaker 2: of years. Well, I tell people I never get anything
Speaker 2: I want. So every night when I go to bed,
Speaker 2: I pray to the Lord, please kill me tonight, please
Speaker 2: just get this shit over with. I'm done, I'm out
Speaker 2: of here. And next morning I wake up. I'm fine
Speaker 2: because I don't ever get what I want. So as
Speaker 2: long as I keep wanting to want to be dead,
Speaker 2: and I'll be one hundred and twenty years old here
Speaker 2: in a little while.
Speaker 1: If you like this show, please download our first two seasons,
Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates,
Speaker 1: visit meon thirty three dot com or follow me on
Speaker 1: Twitter at John waalzac Jo n Wa l Czak, thanks
Speaker 1: for listening. Our final person of interest is the most
Speaker 1: important by far, the person I consider likeliest to have
Speaker 1: helped Robert Fisher before, during, or after the murders. Police
Speaker 1: got a lead never made public until now that he
Speaker 1: directly assisted Fisher. His name is Okay, I can't tell
Speaker 1: you his name. I'm sorry. I'm in a tough spot.
Speaker 1: I find him highly suspicious, but I'm unaware of any
Speaker 1: evidence proving his complicity in these crimes. Furthermore, one of
Speaker 1: his kids accused him of physic, cole verbal, and sexual abuse.
Speaker 1: To protect her identity, I need to hide his so
Speaker 1: let's call him Tony. Tony is a fifty nine year
Speaker 1: old white male, four years younger than Robert Fisher. He
Speaker 1: used to work for the State of Arizona. He's now retired.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, Scottsdeal detective Hugh Lockerby and
Speaker 1: FBI agent Bob Caldwell showed up at Tony's job. They
Speaker 1: first went to human resources, trying to get his employment
Speaker 1: records from April two thousand and one. A manager confirmed
Speaker 1: they existed, but said she would need a subpoena to
Speaker 1: release them. They then spoke to Tony's supervisor, and finally
Speaker 1: they tried to find Tony himself. They ran into him
Speaker 1: outside his building asked to speak in private. He agreed.
Speaker 1: From a police report quote.
Speaker 5: We interviewed Tony about his knowledge of Robert Fisher. At first,
Speaker 5: when we asked Tony if he knew Robert Fisher, he
Speaker 5: stated he did not recognize the name. We next explained
Speaker 5: to Tony that Fisher had gone to the same church,
Speaker 5: Scottsdale Baptist as him in two thousand and one, and
Speaker 5: Fisher had killed his family in Scottsdale and burned the
Speaker 5: house down. At this time, Tony acknowledged that he did
Speaker 5: remember Fisher but did not know him. Tony then began
Speaker 5: stating that the incident was a tragedy and he remembered
Speaker 5: when it occurred. As the interview continued, we asked Tony
Speaker 5: if he recognized Fisher at church, and he said no.
Speaker 5: Tony stated that when he saw Fisher's picture in the paper,
Speaker 5: he did not recognize him. Tony stated when he saw
Speaker 5: Fisher's wife, Mary's picture, he recognized her because his ex
Speaker 5: wife used to talk to Mary after church. Tony stated
Speaker 5: that when his wife was speaking with Mary, he never
Speaker 5: saw Fisher around her. We asked Tony if his children
Speaker 5: ever played with the Fisher children, and he said they did,
Speaker 5: but that his ex wife arranged that. We asked Tony
Speaker 5: if he ever did any activities with Fisher, and he
Speaker 5: said no. We asked Tony if he ever went hunting
Speaker 5: or fishing with Fisher, and he said no. Tony stated
Speaker 5: that he does not hunt, but only Fisher's. Tony told
Speaker 5: us that he got a divorce from sometime in two
Speaker 5: thousand and one. Tony stated that he thinks moved to
Speaker 5: with their kids. Tony stated that he has not seen
Speaker 5: them in a long time. During the interview with Tony,
Speaker 5: he appeared to be very nervous and was breathing heavily.
Speaker 1: When I hear this, what jumps out to me is
Speaker 1: not that Tony got nervous when the police and FBI
Speaker 1: showed up at his job, which is understandable. It's that
Speaker 1: he denied recognizing the name Robert Fisher, and then, with
Speaker 1: gentle prodding, he remembered the guy at his church who
Speaker 1: murdered his family, burned down their house, and was on
Speaker 1: the FBI's ten most wanted list. Ah yes him. Suddenly
Speaker 1: he recalled that his wife knew Mary Fisher, and that
Speaker 1: his kids knew and played with the Fisher kids. It's
Speaker 1: a big leap from I don't recognize the name Robert
Speaker 1: Fisher to my wife knew his wife, my kids, his kids,
Speaker 1: all the while appearing nervous, breathing heavily. This lead stunned me.
Speaker 1: I immediately started investigating independently. Here's what I learned. First,
Speaker 1: I verified that Tony and his family did, in fact
Speaker 1: attend Scottsdale bout A Church at the same time as
Speaker 1: the Fishers. Their names appear in a nineteen ninety seven directory,
Speaker 1: a copy of which I obtained. One of Tony's kids
Speaker 1: was the same age as Brittany Fisher. Second, Tony had
Speaker 1: some rough years in the late nineties and early two thousands.
Speaker 1: In April nineteen ninety nine, his wife filed for divorce.
Speaker 1: She moved out and took their two kids with her.
Speaker 1: That September, Tony crashed his truck into a tree, killing
Speaker 1: his brother. The accident took place in the Apache Sikgreaves
Speaker 1: National Forest, where Robert Fisher was photographed less than three
Speaker 1: months later, at a spot only thirty miles from where
Speaker 1: police later found Mary's fore runner. At the time, Tony
Speaker 1: was driving a green pickup truck. I'm not sure what
Speaker 1: happened to it, if it was discarded or salvaged, but
Speaker 1: a green pickup later shows up in two leads tied
Speaker 1: to the Fisher case. Listen to this clip. I found
Speaker 1: it while combing through archival news footage.
Speaker 6: Right now, we're looking for a late model Dodge Dakota truck.
Speaker 1: HeLa County Sheriff's deputy got a bird's eye view of
Speaker 1: the Tanto National Forest, eyes peeled to the ground looking
Speaker 1: for any signs of Fisher.
Speaker 6: This truck earlier went through the little roadblock we have
Speaker 6: down there, didn't stop, and everybody's been looking for it.
Speaker 1: It's unclear how or why someone drove through a roadblock
Speaker 1: on Young Highway as police hunted Fisher in April two
Speaker 1: thousand and one. This isn't just suspicious, it's also an
Speaker 1: embarrassing security breach. Later that year, on August, twelve, weeks
Speaker 1: before nine to eleven, someone reported seeing Fisher driving a
Speaker 1: green pickup in Scottsdale. Now, obviously a ton of people
Speaker 1: owned green pickups, not just Tony, but still I want
Speaker 1: to mention it just in case the nineteen ninety nine
Speaker 1: crash that killed Tony's brother took place only seventy two
Speaker 1: hours after police investigated Tony for allegedly abusing his daughter physically, verbally,
Speaker 1: and sexually. It's feasible to think that the investigation took
Speaker 1: a toll on him, severely affect his mental state, possibly
Speaker 1: playing a role in the crash. I obtained a copy
Speaker 1: of a police report on the alleged abuse. I'm not
Speaker 1: publishing certain details, for example, on the sexual abuse claims,
Speaker 1: but here's what I can tell you. Tony quote terrified
Speaker 1: his daughter. She was scared he would hurt her mom.
Speaker 1: She wrote a school paper titled Fearful for Life, in
Speaker 1: which she said, quote, every night, I'd wonder if he'd
Speaker 1: really kill me if he had the chance, with the
Speaker 1: same conclusion, yes. She showed scars to officers and said
Speaker 1: they were from her father's abuse. She claimed he punched
Speaker 1: her and hit her with a belt, knocking her down
Speaker 1: and leaving her in pain for days. She said he
Speaker 1: threw glasses at her feet, which shattered and cut her legs.
Speaker 1: She claimed he made her and her sibling hold soap
Speaker 1: in their mouths until they gagged and threw up when
Speaker 1: she was younger. She said her dad told her a
Speaker 1: story about a wolf, and then as she was falling asleep,
Speaker 1: he would quote makes scratching noises at the door and
Speaker 1: wild animal sounds until she cried. He allegedly did this
Speaker 1: for years. As a result, she feared the dark and
Speaker 1: had trouble sleeping without a night light. She told police
Speaker 1: that he was capable of killing her and her sibling.
Speaker 1: Remember this was in nineteen ninety nine, a year and
Speaker 1: a half before the Fisher murders. That May, a judge
Speaker 1: barred Tony from contacting his wife or kids in person.
Speaker 7: Quote the court finds that the defendant represents a credible
Speaker 7: threat to the physical safety of the plaintiff, his wife
Speaker 7: or other protected person, his children, and or may inflict
Speaker 7: bodily injury or death on the plaintiff. The judge prohibited
Speaker 7: Tony from possessing, receiving, or purchasing guns or ammunition. In July,
Speaker 7: his daughter told a counselor that Tony used the threat
Speaker 7: of murder to keep her quiet. Quote if you tell
Speaker 7: mom about the abuse, I will kill you, counselor, you
Speaker 7: mean he would get physical with you, No, I mean
Speaker 7: he would kill me. She said, why didn't you tell
Speaker 7: your mom? He said he would hurt mom. Tony's daughter
Speaker 7: told a different counselor that she worried her dad would
Speaker 7: abduct her. He only wanted to remain in her life
Speaker 7: quote based on his need to control. Years earlier, Tony
Speaker 7: faced a separate allegation that he sexually abused a child
Speaker 7: his wife babysat. He vehemently denied abusing any child. He
Speaker 7: was never prosecuted. Not only that, he said, but after
Speaker 7: his daughter's allegations, police didn't even bother contacting him, indicating
Speaker 7: to him that they didn't believe her. In April two thousand,
Speaker 7: a year before the Fisher murders, in a court filing,
Speaker 7: Tony submitted a list of character witnesses who might testify
Speaker 7: on his behalf.
Speaker 1: I immediately recognized two names. Greg Cantelmo, Robert Fisher's pastor, who
Speaker 1: didn't respond to interview requests, and Jim Rodin, Robert's friend,
Speaker 1: who doesn't remember Tony. Do you recognize the name's.
Speaker 2: Questions No.
Speaker 1: By early two thousand and one, Tony was broke. He
Speaker 1: was in debt, He needed money. He couldn't even afford
Speaker 1: to pay his attorney, who like his wife dumped him.
Speaker 1: One night in February two thousand and one, seven weeks
Speaker 1: before the Fisher murders, Tony allegedly idled outside his family's
Speaker 1: home ominously before speeding off, prompting his wife to obtain
Speaker 1: a second protective order. On March twentieth, a judge told
Speaker 1: Tony's wife to put his belongings, including camping gear and
Speaker 1: fishing equipment, in a storage unit. On April third, a
Speaker 1: week before the Fisher murders, Tony met his wife's attorney
Speaker 1: to pick up his stuff. Two other witnesses were present.
Speaker 1: On April tenth, Robert Fisher allegedly slit the throats of
Speaker 1: his wife and kids, blew up his house, and escaped.
Speaker 1: On April sixteenth, Tony provided the court a list of
Speaker 1: items he claimed his wife failed to return, including, intriguingly,
Speaker 1: a red handled fishing knife. Let me pause and review
Speaker 1: what we've learned so far. Police got a lead that
Speaker 1: Tony assisted Robert before, during, or after the murders. Tony,
Speaker 1: his family, and the Fishers attended the same church. Tony's
Speaker 1: wife knew Mary, Tony's kids knew the Fisher kids. In
Speaker 1: a court filing, Tony named two people who knew Robert,
Speaker 1: Greg Cantelmo and Jim Rodin as potential character witnesses. Investigators
Speaker 1: interviewed Tony in two thousand and eight. He appeared nervous
Speaker 1: and was breathing heavily. He claimed not to recognize the
Speaker 1: name Robert Fisher. Then magically his memory returned. He suddenly
Speaker 1: remembered not only Robert, but that their families were friends.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety nine, Tony's wife left him, took the kids,
Speaker 1: got a protective order. His daughter accused him of abuse, physical, verbal,
Speaker 1: and sexual. She expressed fear that he would kill their family.
Speaker 1: The cops investigated Tony. Only seventy two hours later, he
Speaker 1: crashed his pickup truck into a tree, killing his brother
Speaker 1: in a forest in which Robert Fisher was photographed. Left
Speaker 1: less than three months later at a spot thirty miles
Speaker 1: from where police later found Mary Fisher's forerunner. Tony was
Speaker 1: heavily in debt he needed money. Six days after the
Speaker 1: Fisher murders, Tony claimed in a court filing that his
Speaker 1: wife hadn't given him back a red handled fishing knife,
Speaker 1: which was now missing. He said, next, I found the
Speaker 1: name of a woman with whom Tony was allegedly having
Speaker 1: an affair in two thousand and one, I reached out
Speaker 1: to her, she didn't respond. I had a private investigator
Speaker 1: run a background check on Tony. It came back clean,
Speaker 1: no criminal charges. But I kept digging and discovered that
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, Tony was arrested for soliciting a prostitute.
Speaker 1: He allegedly saw an ad on backpage dot com. An
Speaker 1: undercover cop texted you coming to see me today eighty
Speaker 1: or one hundred for bareback. Tony showed up at a
Speaker 1: motel to meet the woman, was arrested, but again, for
Speaker 1: some reason, not prosecuted. Here's why this matter. Because of
Speaker 1: the arrest, Tony's fingerprints are now on file with the
Speaker 1: department that arrested him, not Scottsdale, a different department. In
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, when investigators interviewed Tony, his prints
Speaker 1: were not on file and they didn't have probable cause
Speaker 1: to obtain them. I don't think Scottsdale or the FBI
Speaker 1: were aware until now that a different department subsequently arrested
Speaker 1: and finger printed him. They should compare his prints to
Speaker 1: those recovered from Mary Fisher's forerunner. They should reinterview Tony,
Speaker 1: his ex wife, his parents, who by the way, had
Speaker 1: property in northern Arizona, and what happened to the red
Speaker 1: handled fishing knife. This is a critical lead. It should
Speaker 1: be investigated again. Let's sink back to episode two. We
Speaker 1: found two new witnesses, both of whom changed the case.
Speaker 1: Timeline Peter, a neighbor, and Bud Wolfe, a newspaper delivery man.
Speaker 1: Both saw Mary's suv at the Fisher house on April
Speaker 1: tenth at three thirty am and Bud at five point thirty,
Speaker 1: proving that Robert Fisher did not flee the night before
Speaker 1: after visiting the atm. Their testimony tells us that between
Speaker 1: three point thirty and seven thirty am, someone pulled Robert's
Speaker 1: truck out of the driveway, Mary's suv into the driveway,
Speaker 1: Robert's truck behind the suv, the truck out again, the
Speaker 1: suv out, the truck back, and then drove away in
Speaker 1: the suv, all on a small cul de sac. I
Speaker 1: can't explain this. My best guess, which is still lacking,
Speaker 1: is that after the murders, Robert wanted to load up
Speaker 1: Mary's for runner with supplies without drawing attention from the neighbors,
Speaker 1: so he parked as close as possible to the house,
Speaker 1: then moved his truck behind the suv to better hide
Speaker 1: his activity. Regardless of why this game of musical cars
Speaker 1: took place, it seems to be a small piece of
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence that someone else was at the Fisher house
Speaker 1: the night of the murders. It makes more sense that
Speaker 1: two people shuffled around the vehicles, which, if true, would
Speaker 1: mean Robert had help and accomplice at least to clean
Speaker 1: up and escape. Now, let's think back to episode three.
Speaker 1: I shared emails I got from the son of the
Speaker 1: Fisher's next door neighbor, the odd Son, whose mom heard
Speaker 1: Robert and Mary fighting the night of April ninth. I
Speaker 1: bleeped things, said i'd share them later, and I did,
Speaker 1: except for one a final reveal. The odd Son told
Speaker 1: me that on April ninth, his mom.
Speaker 4: Saw and Fisher fiddling with the gas light into the
Speaker 4: house heard the gunshot that killed Mary.
Speaker 1: Okay, y'all, let's remove that beep. On the night of
Speaker 1: the murders, he said, his mom.
Speaker 4: Saw the helper's white truck in the alley and Fisher
Speaker 4: fiddling with the gas light into the house. Heard the
Speaker 4: gunshot that killed Mary.
Speaker 1: The helper's white truck in the alley. Okay, So we're
Speaker 1: in the alley behind Robert Fisher's home. It's kind of
Speaker 1: overgrown a little bit. There's detritus in garbage. This alley
Speaker 1: is kind of impressive. It loops all the way around
Speaker 1: the cul de sac and now we're going back to
Speaker 1: the main street. What is that street? Ok okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: Is that detecting like obstacles?
Speaker 2: Why is it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, So this is overgrown enough that there are
Speaker 1: bushes and trees that are poking out, and the car
Speaker 1: is detecting and beeping for obstacles. The alley is actually
Speaker 1: a small road. It circles the entire block and connects
Speaker 1: directly to Oak Street, a thoroughfare. It makes sense that
Speaker 1: if Robert Fisher had help, his accomplice would use the alley.
Speaker 1: Listen closely to this clip from a Fisher home video.
Speaker 4: Baby Bi Tira, you say I.
Speaker 2: Love it, I love you.
Speaker 1: That click at the end was Robert closing a gate
Speaker 1: connecting his backyard to the alley after driving a pickup
Speaker 1: truck through it. I decide to ask investigators about Tony
Speaker 1: the likeliest accomplice.
Speaker 3: His wife left him.
Speaker 1: Former FBI agent Bob calledwell.
Speaker 3: He was an abusive abuser in the family, according to
Speaker 3: the wife, to the point where she had to get
Speaker 3: the kids and leave.
Speaker 1: He lied to us about Noan Robert.
Speaker 3: We know that, but we kept pressing, kept pressing, kept
Speaker 3: looking into him, and at that time, again, he's one.
Speaker 2: Of those people.
Speaker 3: He just didn't want to talk to us, didn't want
Speaker 3: anything to do with it, kept denying it. But we
Speaker 3: didn't have enough anything to charge him with. He's got
Speaker 3: his rights, he doesn't have to talk to us. That
Speaker 3: was one It was always left open. It's like, you know, okay,
Speaker 3: we know you're lying to us. We know you knew
Speaker 3: him a lot better than you're saying you did, but
Speaker 3: we had nothing to other than to prove.
Speaker 1: It's such a massive red flag though for somebody to say,
Speaker 1: I don't remember that name. It's one thing to say
Speaker 1: I don't have anything to do with it. It's another
Speaker 1: to say, the person at my church in a nice,
Speaker 1: quiet suburb who murdered his family and blewt their house,
Speaker 1: So I don't remember who you're talking about. Wouldn't that
Speaker 1: indicate that he was hiding something?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, was a person of interests Yeah, gods still, Lieutenant
Speaker 1: Hugh Lockerby.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a person of an interest.
Speaker 1: We tried to get him to come to a polygraph.
Speaker 2: He said he would do it, and then the next
Speaker 2: day you never showed up.
Speaker 6: Bob and I were pretty convinced that he knew some
Speaker 6: more about it than he was leading us to believe.
Speaker 1: At this point, I know that I have to try
Speaker 1: to speak to Tony myself. I want to catch him
Speaker 1: off guard, so I show up at his home unannounced.
Speaker 1: I'm concerned for my safety that he'll fly into a
Speaker 1: rage and attack me, but I figure the odds of
Speaker 1: him being home are low, and even if he is home,
Speaker 1: he'll slam the door in my face, and even if
Speaker 1: he doesn't, he'll tell me to get lost. No matter what.
Speaker 1: He won't talk right next time, I'm missing in Arizona,
Speaker 1: and if you keep asking me this, I'm going to
Speaker 1: call the police and have you removed from my property.
Speaker 1: You can reach just by phone at one eight three
Speaker 1: three new tips that's one eight three three six three
Speaker 1: nine eight four seven seven by email at tips at
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. Tips at iHeartMedia dot com, online at
Speaker 1: Neon thirty three dot com or on Twitter at John Waalzac,
Speaker 1: j O n w A l Czak. This episode produced
Speaker 1: by Taylor Shacoyne and nik JOA Worski at Podcast Monster.
Speaker 1: Paul Dekan is our executive producer. Chris Brown is our
Speaker 1: supervising producer. Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer. Additional production
Speaker 1: support by Evan Tyre. Paul Gemberlin is our researcher, Ben
Speaker 1: Bolan is a consulting producer, and I'm your host and
Speaker 1: executive producer John Waalzac. Recreation's voice by Ben Hackett, Taylor Shacogne,
Speaker 1: and Ben Bolan. Header's voiced by Ben Bolan and using
Speaker 1: altraed Ai software. Cover art by Pam Peacock. Neon thirty
Speaker 1: three logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro song is
Speaker 1: Utopia by ruby Cube. Please download the first two seasons
Speaker 1: of our show, Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine
Speaker 1: to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give us a
Speaker 1: five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a co production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three.