1
00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,840
Speaker 1: Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may

2
00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,320
Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses

3
00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:15,680
Speaker 1: alleged physical, verbal, and sexual abuse from iHeartRadio and Neon

4
00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,680
Speaker 1: thirty three. I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona,

5
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,240
Speaker 1: the story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing

6
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,079
Speaker 1: his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and

7
00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,040
Speaker 1: escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting

8
00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:37,960
Speaker 1: Robert Fisher, and I need your help. The Tale of

9
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,080
Speaker 1: Robert Fisher now takes us from the arid pine forests

10
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,560
Speaker 1: of the Arizona High Desert to the drizzly, misbeaten coasts

11
00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,040
Speaker 1: of Oregon, specifically Astoria, home of the Goonies, those treasure

12
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,680
Speaker 1: hunting misfits of cinema lore and seventy four year old

13
00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,200
Speaker 1: Greg Anderson, the man who found Mary Fisher's forerunner in

14
00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,520
Speaker 1: the woods in two thousand and one one grade. We

15
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,920
Speaker 1: knock on a door. A woman answers Greg's out back.

16
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,760
Speaker 1: She says, in the metal shed. A door opens slowly.

17
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,800
Speaker 1: We hear a voice, grizzled, gravelly. Greg invites us in.

18
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 1: We cross into his dimly lit layer shadows slice chilly air.

19
00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 1: His face is weathered, his hair white. We sit down

20
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,840
Speaker 1: at his desk explain who we are. He agrees to

21
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,200
Speaker 1: speak for the first time since police called him a

22
00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,480
Speaker 1: person of interest and the media labeled him a vagabond.

23
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 1: They call you vagabond.

24
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:37,240
Speaker 2: That was in the paper.

25
00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,520
Speaker 1: Greg is a recovering alcoholic many years ago. When he

26
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,720
Speaker 1: quit drinking, everyone told him to socialize. But Greg is

27
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 1: a solitary guy.

28
00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,600
Speaker 2: So I didn't go resocialize. I would leave.

29
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 1: He spent summers in Oregon and winters in Arizona laying

30
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:52,880
Speaker 1: concrete concrete work.

31
00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,600
Speaker 2: You could tie out there in the slabs and know

32
00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,520
Speaker 2: where to come out and bother you about anything.

33
00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,040
Speaker 1: When he wasn't working, Greg retreated into the wild one time.

34
00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,680
Speaker 1: He spent three months in near total isolation. After the

35
00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:05,960
Speaker 1: first month and a half.

36
00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,079
Speaker 2: He came back in bod groceries, did everything, didn't talk

37
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,440
Speaker 2: to anybody. The only thing I said was twenty bucks

38
00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,839
Speaker 2: on pump number three and that was it. Then drove

39
00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:15,400
Speaker 2: back out for another month and a half.

40
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,120
Speaker 1: To be alone for so long, you have.

41
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,639
Speaker 2: To be tough in your head. Your own mind will

42
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,600
Speaker 2: tear you apart if you let it. Out there, you'll

43
00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:24,760
Speaker 2: just rip yourself up.

44
00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,919
Speaker 1: Greg spent much of his time hiking. Other than hiking,

45
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:35,840
Speaker 1: what would you do? How would you kill time.

46
00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 2: Just wandering around? I didn't really like sitting that much,

47
00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,840
Speaker 2: and I'd have a little pot out there, but I'd

48
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:42,799
Speaker 2: have to watch that. If you smoke some pot, you're

49
00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,440
Speaker 2: not going to go for the walk. Take it with you,

50
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,120
Speaker 2: roll up a joint and put it in your sock

51
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,000
Speaker 2: and go. But then you're smoking it when you're out there,

52
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 2: up on top of a mountain, and then you're too

53
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,640
Speaker 2: stone to get back down, and you think that's a

54
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 2: stupid thing to do.

55
00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,160
Speaker 1: How do you find the balance between moving, moving, moving,

56
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,920
Speaker 1: always moving, hiking, walking, driving, traveling, and sitting still and

57
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,800
Speaker 1: being able to sit with your thoughts. Where's the balance

58
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:06,320
Speaker 1: there for you?

59
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,440
Speaker 2: I think the Arizona stuff gave me the ability to

60
00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,080
Speaker 2: sit and let things just go the way they're going

61
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 2: to go, and not get all worried about shit. I

62
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,800
Speaker 2: see all the people now are looking at their phones

63
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,720
Speaker 2: all the time. You've got to have somebody else around

64
00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,840
Speaker 2: or something going on. And I can sit stare at

65
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,400
Speaker 2: the wall and not feel bad at all. After about

66
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 2: four hours of just looking at the wall. Somebody would say, oh,

67
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,600
Speaker 2: you're what is it when you sit try to calm

68
00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 2: yourself down, your meditation meditating? Yeah, well you're just sitting meditating.

69
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,160
Speaker 2: Well I don't know exactly what that is. Maybe I'm

70
00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,160
Speaker 2: just sitting looking at the wall, and I can do

71
00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 2: that pretty easy.

72
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,840
Speaker 1: Did you ever worry that being alone for such a

73
00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,120
Speaker 1: long period of time would literally drive you crazy?

74
00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,040
Speaker 2: You can, yeah, yeah I thought that.

75
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 1: Were you scared about it?

76
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,440
Speaker 2: No, but you know you got to do something about it.

77
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,240
Speaker 2: When you come in and you're overwhelmed by the store,

78
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,520
Speaker 2: a grocery store with all the signage and crab it's

79
00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 2: just overmodulating. I look at a wall of foot writing

80
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,840
Speaker 2: and shit, I can't see any of it. None of

81
00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 2: it makes any sense. It's like having three people talk

82
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 2: to you can't understand any of one of them.

83
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,640
Speaker 1: A society that assaults your eyes and ears, trying to

84
00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,000
Speaker 1: twist your brain and empty your wallet. I consider myself

85
00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,320
Speaker 1: an introvert. People are surprised because I speak to people

86
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,039
Speaker 1: for a living, but I like my alone time. But

87
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,800
Speaker 1: I can imagine at a certain point, not only are

88
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,800
Speaker 1: you alone, but it's so quiet, it's so peaceful, out there.

89
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, fire don't make no noise. The first thing I

90
00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,480
Speaker 2: noticed is fire is quiet or doesn't pomp or snaprinding,

91
00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:38,800
Speaker 2: But it's just dead silent.

92
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,479
Speaker 1: What did it mean to be out in the wilderness

93
00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 1: to you? Did you find that to be a spiritual experience?

94
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,839
Speaker 2: Yeah? I never failed alone, never failed alone. Always talked

95
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,320
Speaker 2: to Jesus, talked to somebody. You're fine. I did more, bitch,

96
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 2: and as far as one on one with Jesus, I'd

97
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 2: be bitching about stuff. I don't use religious terms like

98
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,919
Speaker 2: rebuke you and all that. Hey, fucker, how come you

99
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 2: do this shit like that? What's going on? Why did

100
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 2: you get to why do you kill these little kids

101
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,279
Speaker 2: that didn't do anything wrong? I don't see the reasoning

102
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,280
Speaker 2: for that. Don't give me this god words and mysterious

103
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,839
Speaker 2: ways shit That don't cut it. That just catch twenty two.

104
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,360
Speaker 2: If you keep a good bitch on, you're in good

105
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,880
Speaker 2: shape because you're talking to yourself and you're not letting

106
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,040
Speaker 2: your brain wander off by itself and get you all screwy.

107
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,119
Speaker 2: But I can see where you stay in that desert

108
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 2: too long and you're banning for gold or digging a

109
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 2: cave or something that you'll turn into a weirdo after

110
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,360
Speaker 2: a while. Anything you want out in the.

111
00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,719
Speaker 1: Desert, including your sanity, you're gonna have.

112
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 2: To work for or do something to get to keep it.

113
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,360
Speaker 1: What about food? Would you bring your food with you?

114
00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,400
Speaker 1: Was there anything to scavengers? Did you hunt?

115
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:41,760
Speaker 3: No?

116
00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 2: I brought my own food with be all time. About

117
00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,280
Speaker 2: a top ramen, about a chili and just anything that

118
00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,359
Speaker 2: you're dealing with, just dry food or can food. And

119
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,720
Speaker 2: I didn't have any refrigerator any of that. So any

120
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,919
Speaker 2: of the water, I'd mixed it with crystal light, you know,

121
00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 2: just have some flavor in it. A lot of crackers

122
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,359
Speaker 2: and peanut butter at a different kind of bee engine,

123
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,240
Speaker 2: a lot of noodle stuff, just add water and the packages.

124
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,080
Speaker 2: I can't even think of the names of it.

125
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,000
Speaker 1: If you weren't surviving off the land.

126
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,599
Speaker 2: No, not at all. No. I didn't fish and didn't hunt.

127
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,320
Speaker 1: As for water, Greg always kept an eye out for

128
00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 1: creeks and cattle holes, but for the most part he

129
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,920
Speaker 1: survived on the forty gallons he bought when he went

130
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:19,440
Speaker 1: into town.

131
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,800
Speaker 2: You shudn't use a lot of water for bathe in

132
00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,760
Speaker 2: or shaven. You drank that water and you'd get pretty

133
00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,679
Speaker 2: ripe out there. After a while, you take a sponge bath.

134
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,440
Speaker 2: I'd have my shower bag, put water in that with

135
00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,200
Speaker 2: if you found some quick I'd fill up that shower

136
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,320
Speaker 2: bag and it'd get warm. In an hour, it'd be

137
00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,120
Speaker 2: hotter and you'd have to put cold water in it

138
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,080
Speaker 2: to cool it off. Hang it from a tree and

139
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,120
Speaker 2: get a pretty good shower out of it. I use

140
00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,280
Speaker 2: that a lot. If you left it in the sun,

141
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:44,840
Speaker 2: I'd throw it on top of the van, and if

142
00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,200
Speaker 2: you forgot about it, it would pop and all the

143
00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 2: water and shoot out of it, and you have to

144
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:49,679
Speaker 2: buy another one.

145
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,440
Speaker 1: Greg also had to watch out for certain menaces of nature,

146
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,400
Speaker 1: including snakes.

147
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,560
Speaker 2: If you get three days warm, real warm snakes will

148
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,960
Speaker 2: wake up down the desert and they get out, and

149
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,880
Speaker 2: they're real cantankerous because they know it's not time to

150
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,640
Speaker 2: get up yet. They'll start rattling when you're two hundred

151
00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,960
Speaker 2: feet away. You usually got to be right up on

152
00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,040
Speaker 2: them and then they'll rattle. That's another thing. Some of

153
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,120
Speaker 2: them don't rattle. They sound like you left the air

154
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:19,640
Speaker 2: out of a truck tire. Just louder shit bears. I've

155
00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,480
Speaker 2: running into bears a couple of times. I had a

156
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,040
Speaker 2: bear come in my van once in uh Signal Vite

157
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,640
Speaker 2: and they were saying on the news that the bears

158
00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,800
Speaker 2: were coming down because there's nothing up there in the

159
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,320
Speaker 2: mountains from me. So they're catching a lot of them

160
00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 2: in scott today, Old a few other places. They're sitting

161
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 2: in the trees. They're darkning them and getting them out

162
00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,440
Speaker 2: of there. And I think the same night or same

163
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 2: couple of nights, woke up, I had my door open

164
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,320
Speaker 2: all the time in the van because it's beautiful out

165
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 2: the moon's out. Can't see out the door, and it's

166
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,760
Speaker 2: stunk smelled in there, and there was something right in

167
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 2: front of it, and I couldn't see what it was

168
00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,520
Speaker 2: because I'm just laying there. It got it backed up.

169
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 2: They see the little goopy years they got sticking out

170
00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,880
Speaker 2: of his head. Fuck, that's a bear. And I don't

171
00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 2: have a gun and around nothing, so jumped out of

172
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,440
Speaker 2: the way. His face was right here. I jumped in

173
00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 2: the back, grabbed my cooking pan and I just started

174
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,040
Speaker 2: beating it on his racket, just making a lot of noise,

175
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 2: and bear you could see him got out. Let him

176
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,119
Speaker 2: pause out there and start walking away and then I

177
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,360
Speaker 2: could grab my flashlight and I was shining it at it,

178
00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 2: and you could see the red eyes just looking at me.

179
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,040
Speaker 2: Just don't fuck with me. I'll kick your ass. But

180
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,520
Speaker 2: that's the scaredest I've ever been in my life. And

181
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,680
Speaker 2: the bear was after I had a flat of strawberries

182
00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,040
Speaker 2: and I'd been eating on it, so that brought that

183
00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:32,920
Speaker 2: bear in there, and I wanted to give him all

184
00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,360
Speaker 2: the strawberries, but you know, fed bears are dead bear

185
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 2: they don't like to doing that humans. I was standing

186
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,040
Speaker 2: out in the middle of nowhere, just my van was

187
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,760
Speaker 2: somewhere else. I was on the side of this little

188
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 2: dirt road. It was dusk. It was just about dark,

189
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 2: all the way dark. He comes just in the BMW

190
00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:52,920
Speaker 2: or something up the highway and then it turned came

191
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,400
Speaker 2: down to the gravel road, and then it turned down

192
00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,000
Speaker 2: this little dinky road that I was on.

193
00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,600
Speaker 1: Greg's the hidden behind brush and trees.

194
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 2: This car pulled up right next to me. I could

195
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:04,960
Speaker 2: reach out and tap on the window if I wanted to,

196
00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,600
Speaker 2: and they got out their crack pipe or something. People

197
00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,840
Speaker 2: in business lady driving and the other guy in business

198
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:13,680
Speaker 2: suits that looked like they were lawyers or something. But

199
00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,520
Speaker 2: they said to find a sneaky place to smoke the crack.

200
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 2: And it was just weird that way out in the

201
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,800
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere like that, somebody pulls right up next

202
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 2: to you. And where was that? That was up on

203
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,120
Speaker 2: the rim, not too far from where the car was at.

204
00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,480
Speaker 1: Just to be clear, you're saying that was a whole difference.

205
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,000
Speaker 2: If it was just to say, weird shit happens out there,

206
00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,600
Speaker 2: that somebody to pull right up, I mean, I could

207
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,400
Speaker 2: have got them in big trouble. They looked like they

208
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,120
Speaker 2: were in nice professional people.

209
00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,480
Speaker 1: I get the sense that your personalities to handle that

210
00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,559
Speaker 1: would be don't mess with them. Yeah, just kind of

211
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 1: keep clear, do your own thing, and don't start any trouble.

212
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,280
Speaker 1: They won't start any trouble.

213
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,319
Speaker 2: With exactly conflict avoidant's personality. They used to accuse me

214
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:52,680
Speaker 2: that in American lake.

215
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,520
Speaker 1: Out here, it's a safety mechanism. Isolated corners of the

216
00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,040
Speaker 1: American Southwest have always drawn out laws, people gridge to

217
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,640
Speaker 1: avoid desperation and ferocity stalk this thirsty landscape. Many incidents

218
00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:10,120
Speaker 1: never make the news. A few do, including the Tyson

219
00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,960
Speaker 1: gang July nineteen seventy eight. Gary Tyson's three sons break

220
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,520
Speaker 1: him and another man, Randy greenawalt out of prison. The

221
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,640
Speaker 1: Tyson gang goes on a rampage, killing six people, including

222
00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,479
Speaker 1: a two year old boy, on the back rows of Colorado,

223
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 1: New Mexico, and Arizona. On day twelve, the gang barrels

224
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,319
Speaker 1: through a checkpoint in a stolen van. Bullets rain down.

225
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 1: One son dies, two are captured, along with Randy. Gary

226
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,920
Speaker 1: disappears ten days later. He's found in the desert.

227
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 4: Dead Danny Ray Horning.

228
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,560
Speaker 1: May nineteen ninety two. Horning, a bank robber, breaks out

229
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,680
Speaker 1: of the same prison as Gary Tyson. For two months,

230
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,360
Speaker 1: he zigzags through Arizona, eating cacti. He makes his way

231
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 1: to the Grand Canyon, where he kidnaps two taurusts and

232
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,439
Speaker 1: slips past police. Media call him Arizona's Rambo. Speeding down

233
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,520
Speaker 1: a highway one hundred miles an hour, Horning shoots at

234
00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 1: a cop. He crashes, but escapes again to Sedona, where

235
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 1: he escapes again just kidding. He's caught.

236
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,240
Speaker 4: The Four Quarters Fugitives.

237
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,520
Speaker 1: May nineteen ninety eight, the spot where Colorado, Utah, New Mexico,

238
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,680
Speaker 1: and Arizona meet. Three men kill a cop and steal

239
00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,600
Speaker 1: a water truck. Their plan is to rob a casino,

240
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 1: destroy a power plant, or blow up a dam. They fail,

241
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,240
Speaker 1: They die, or at least two of them do. Police

242
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,079
Speaker 1: find a body at a riverside campsite. Thirteen months later,

243
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,880
Speaker 1: on Halloween at sunset, a group of hunters find another

244
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 1: body on a mesa. Both men died of gunshot wounds.

245
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,440
Speaker 1: Did they commit suicide or were they killed by the

246
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:56,720
Speaker 1: final fugitive, Jason mcveen. No one knows. Mcven slips away,

247
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,680
Speaker 1: melting into the red desert. Nine years later, a cowboy

248
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 1: finds his skeletonized remains in an isolated canyon next to

249
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 1: an AK forty seven, five hundred rounds of AMMO five

250
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,040
Speaker 1: pipe bombs and survival gear.

251
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,600
Speaker 4: Frank Bannashley Junior and Senior.

252
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,040
Speaker 1: December ninth, nineteen ninety nine. Tenny Gatewood Junior is the

253
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,520
Speaker 1: only officer on duty on the Ford Apache Indian Reservation,

254
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,840
Speaker 1: one cop covering one point seven million acres. While struggling

255
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,680
Speaker 1: with two burglary suspects, he shot in the head with

256
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,160
Speaker 1: his own gun. Frank Banashley Senior and his son, Frank Junior,

257
00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,920
Speaker 1: flee into the wild. A massive manhunt ensues. The next day,

258
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,720
Speaker 1: a police helicopter spots two campfires in the forest below.

259
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 1: The cops catch the Banashlees by chance. Robert Fischer is

260
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,520
Speaker 1: nearby when the murder occurs. The final photo we have

261
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,719
Speaker 1: of him was taken that day in the Apache Sickreaves

262
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,440
Speaker 1: National Forests. So, yes, these wild lands are populated not

263
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 1: only by bears and bats and pinion pines and dust

264
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,800
Speaker 1: storms and monsoons, but also by murderous men, and yes,

265
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,880
Speaker 1: Greg Gunderson wants to avoid them.

266
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,880
Speaker 2: His conflict AVOIDANTCE personality.

267
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:39,880
Speaker 1: Comes in handy April nineteenth, two thousand and one. Greg

268
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,760
Speaker 1: Gunderson is driving home Arizona to Oregon. As he rumbles

269
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 1: up Young Road to Highway two sixty on top of

270
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,400
Speaker 1: the muggy on rim afternoon evaporates into a darkening sky.

271
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:52,119
Speaker 1: The weather worsens.

272
00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,079
Speaker 2: You're just a slushy snow was coming down. I figure, well,

273
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 2: it's going to get crappy. You got to get a

274
00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,719
Speaker 2: spot before it gets dark or you're never going to

275
00:13:58,840 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 2: have a fire.

276
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,959
Speaker 1: You were just transitting, You weren't planning on camping at

277
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,079
Speaker 1: that time for a while.

278
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 2: No, it was the weather made me want to just

279
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,679
Speaker 2: and it was getting dark and I wanted to scoop

280
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,120
Speaker 2: up to firewood because it was cold. It's either that

281
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,120
Speaker 2: or when it's snowing like that, you're going to sit

282
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,760
Speaker 2: in the van or go to sleep at five o'clock

283
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 2: getting dark early, so you want some firewood anyway, So

284
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,160
Speaker 2: you've got to find a camp spot when it's still

285
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 2: light enough to find some firewood.

286
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,000
Speaker 1: Greg knows a great spot, but it's twenty minutes south.

287
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 1: He already passed it, so he turns around, drives back,

288
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,440
Speaker 1: takes a left onto our forest service road and parks.

289
00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 2: The sun was already down. It was just the end

290
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,320
Speaker 2: of the evening, darker than this, but it was getting

291
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 2: down there to where it was fifteen minutes it could

292
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 2: be dark.

293
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 1: What was it like to be out there at night?

294
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,160
Speaker 2: Couldn't see it starts that night, But normally I liked

295
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:47,920
Speaker 2: it at night because you've got to see the moon

296
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,000
Speaker 2: go through its changes. It's out every night. There was

297
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 2: nights when midnight the moon would be a full moon.

298
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 2: If you were down in the Superstitions, there's a zinc

299
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 2: mine area that they used to haul zink out of them.

300
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 2: The roads are white, just white white. So when the

301
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,119
Speaker 2: moon's out midnight, that bright You can see a tarantula

302
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 2: two hundred feet away walking across the road at midnight,

303
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,000
Speaker 2: which is pretty amazing to see that bark. It's just

304
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 2: bright out at night. Saw a lot of shit the

305
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 2: rim especially. You see a lot of satellite stuff, a

306
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,960
Speaker 2: lot of shit moving up in the air. You stare

307
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,200
Speaker 2: at the stars, you're all over the place. They start

308
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:25,760
Speaker 2: moving on.

309
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,880
Speaker 1: You tonight, though. The only dots Greg sees in the

310
00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,040
Speaker 1: sky are the snowflakes falling on his eyes. Was it

311
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 1: heavy or just kind of white?

312
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 2: It was mushy. It messed with your vision, but it

313
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:37,600
Speaker 2: wasn't sticking real good.

314
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 1: So there wasn't like accumulation on the ground.

315
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,720
Speaker 2: A little bit, yeah, a little bit, but not. I

316
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,720
Speaker 2: can still see the wood. I remember picking up.

317
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,480
Speaker 1: The branches, walking down a tiny rutted road, gathering firewood.

318
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,640
Speaker 1: Darkness falling, the final glimmers of muted light on the horizon.

319
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:55,720
Speaker 1: Greg sees a glint of silver.

320
00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,560
Speaker 2: I noticed this carpark truck SUV out no one's and

321
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,080
Speaker 2: he wasn't camping, that was just parked. You could tell,

322
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 2: you know, I could say, you could see if that's

323
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,440
Speaker 2: a drug deal or that's somebody's staying forever. If the

324
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,800
Speaker 2: blue tarps come out, they're staying for a long time.

325
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,360
Speaker 2: If there's any transmissions laying around, they've been there for

326
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 2: two months. You'd just tell it, you know, win a

327
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 2: bago just louder in hell with the old bikes strapped

328
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 2: to the side of it. You see one of them

329
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,080
Speaker 2: every so often, or a school bus.

330
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:23,800
Speaker 1: Have you been in that area before?

331
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, so you.

332
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 1: Were familiar with like some of the camp area of

333
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:28,000
Speaker 1: the camp.

334
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll try. I knew that that fore runner was.

335
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 2: That's not how you camped there. He was parked in

336
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,640
Speaker 2: the wrong spot. Like he just got out of the

337
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,080
Speaker 2: car and left, and that's pretty much what he had done.

338
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,880
Speaker 1: I think what about it. Immediately said something's wrong here.

339
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 2: The way the car was sitting there, it wasn't level.

340
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 2: If you're going to spend the night, your level of

341
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 2: the car up that kind of that's the first thing

342
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 2: you'd do. And then parking the spot, maybe that you

343
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 2: could have a little fire. The fire pits all over

344
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 2: the place. You just got to move the rocks around

345
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,200
Speaker 2: where you want it. That car wasn't in there right,

346
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:57,720
Speaker 2: and it was too far out in the middle of

347
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,560
Speaker 2: nowhere to be a drug deal. The drug deals you

348
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 2: see right outside of town. You see somebody leaning on

349
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,480
Speaker 2: the roof of their car, standing there out in the

350
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,679
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere. Well, he's waiting for somebody. Looked like

351
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 2: somebody had just abandoned that car. It just looked odd

352
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,520
Speaker 2: the way he was sitting in. And that's not even

353
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,400
Speaker 2: how you go in that spot. You drive over here

354
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,560
Speaker 2: and you build a little fire over there. It's pretty

355
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,080
Speaker 2: blase a little spot. But it wouldn't camp angled like that.

356
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 2: I parked flat. I mean, it just dead flat. That's

357
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 2: the way I wanted. If not, I'll jack up my

358
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,680
Speaker 2: bed with some books underneath his legs. But you don't

359
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,000
Speaker 2: want to be sleeping downhill if you're sleeping in the rig.

360
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,880
Speaker 2: And he was parked just a little off. I don't

361
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,280
Speaker 2: know if it was right, so he was down or

362
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 2: the front or whatever, but he wasn't He wasn't flat.

363
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 1: Do you remember seeing anything else when you saw the Forerunner?

364
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 1: Did you see any camping equipment and any cans of food,

365
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,200
Speaker 1: any water bottles? Nothing, so just a car.

366
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I thought it was just parked there.

367
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,480
Speaker 2: It wasn't camping, and it was parked at an angle

368
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,400
Speaker 2: and in the wrong spot, and it was just.

369
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:03,679
Speaker 1: Don't Greg knows it could be Fisher, but he isn't sure.

370
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,120
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to get involved. He's cold, he's tired.

371
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 1: He walks back to his man. Did you see a

372
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:10,880
Speaker 1: fire that night?

373
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:11,680
Speaker 2: No?

374
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,359
Speaker 1: Do you see any fires anywhere in the distance?

375
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 2: No, you couldn't really see that far.

376
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 1: But no, did you hear anything that night?

377
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,879
Speaker 2: Oh? There are no people up there.

378
00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:22,640
Speaker 1: Did you light a fire that night?

379
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I had a fire that night. Well, the

380
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,200
Speaker 2: branches that are in the stumps where they taper down there,

381
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 2: there's a lot of resident in them that burned real good.

382
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,520
Speaker 1: Were you worried that if it was Robert Fisher, that

383
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 1: he would see her fire and come after you.

384
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,280
Speaker 2: No, I was concerned about it, that that could be him,

385
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,160
Speaker 2: But it didn't seem like anybody was there, just from

386
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,119
Speaker 2: the looks of it, like there's not even a chair, nothing,

387
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 2: just there's just nothing.

388
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,680
Speaker 1: Were you worried that he would come over and kill

389
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:52,600
Speaker 1: you and take your van?

390
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking like that, but that would cross through

391
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,359
Speaker 2: your mind real quick. But yeah, what would I do?

392
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,359
Speaker 2: I din'te a gun. I never took a gun with me.

393
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 1: Did you think, well, if he comes at me, how

394
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:03,440
Speaker 1: am I going to protect myself?

395
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 2: I didn't even think like that.

396
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 1: But just in case. Greg stands in the dark, away

397
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 1: from his fire in the woods, watching for movement. He

398
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 1: sees none. Between when you got to that spot and

399
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 1: when you left the next day. Do you recall seeing

400
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,160
Speaker 1: or hearing any vehicles pass by?

401
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:23,760
Speaker 2: You go a long time up? She had a vehicle

402
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,920
Speaker 2: up here? No, I don't remember any.

403
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,719
Speaker 1: Cold air biting his face, exhaustion his mind. Greg nods

404
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,199
Speaker 1: in and out of lucidity. How much sleep did you

405
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 1: got that night?

406
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,720
Speaker 2: Oh? Probably not much? Two hours? Maybe?

407
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,680
Speaker 1: Were you in a sleeping bag of tent?

408
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 2: Sleeping bag? I stay in the back of the van.

409
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,280
Speaker 1: So you slept in the van that night? Yeah, So

410
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,200
Speaker 1: you didn't like go a little ways off in the

411
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,919
Speaker 1: woods to try to put some distance. Did you not

412
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,119
Speaker 1: worry that you would be a target?

413
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 2: I didn't worry about that. No, I didn't. I was thinking,

414
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,399
Speaker 2: he's got more trouble than come over. Wuck with me.

415
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 2: He's got to get out of there. If he did that, Jeff,

416
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 2: somebody took him away.

417
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 1: The next morning, I got up and I.

418
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 2: Wanted to go over and see what kind of car.

419
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,400
Speaker 1: That was greg an axe Marine zig zags through the woods.

420
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,119
Speaker 2: I kind of walked in herky jerky behind the tree,

421
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to be a steady target if

422
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,239
Speaker 2: he was down there, I didn't know. I saw it

423
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,680
Speaker 2: down there, and I walked along this ridge looking down

424
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 2: at it and got to where I got behind the

425
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,119
Speaker 2: back and I could see the back door, got the

426
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 2: binoculars up and it had had the big four on it.

427
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,399
Speaker 2: I couldn't see the runner, but I know with the

428
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:28,840
Speaker 2: four on it, that's the four runner.

429
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 1: He sees movement, there's the dog.

430
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,959
Speaker 2: Damn. I mean it kind of went up in increments.

431
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 2: You know, it's a four runner. Holy shit. And that's

432
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 2: a perfect place for somebody to go stash a car

433
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 2: way up out in the middle of nowhere. And I

434
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 2: started walking back to my campus spot and I saw

435
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 2: the dog came up to me. It had porcupine crap

436
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 2: around his mouth. It was real odd acting dog. I've

437
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 2: had dogs all my life. He was looking at me

438
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 2: and looking back at the car and looking at me

439
00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 2: and not wanting to go anywhere.

440
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,199
Speaker 1: Greg worries Robert is dead in the creek bed or

441
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 1: alive waiting to shoot him.

442
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: It's not threatening or anything. Then it was stop and

443
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 2: look back again. So I was thinking maybe he was

444
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,439
Speaker 2: down in that, or that he went down in that cave.

445
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: You know, you jump in that and you're gone. That

446
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 2: was gobbling up enough water. There had to be a

447
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 2: big opening down there.

448
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 1: This is significant. On the morning of April twentieth, Greg

449
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 1: sees water flowing into the cave Apex Cave, the one

450
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 1: surrounded hours later by a swat team. It's impossible to

451
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 1: imagine Robert Fisher choosing to hide in a water guzzling cave,

452
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: entering via a tide opening at the bottom of a

453
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: sinkhole like a rat trying to crawl down a bathtub

454
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 1: drain as water circles and empties. Did you ever go

455
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: in that cave?

456
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 2: No, you'd have to be a speed lunker to do that,

457
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,719
Speaker 2: you know, and be tied off and all that. One

458
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 2: of them deals is dark. You wouldn't even know what

459
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 2: was happening. You could call five hundred feet before you

460
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 2: even knew what happened. No, I'm not that bold.

461
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: Greg hustles back to his campsite, puts out his fire,

462
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: and then I left and went up to Heber.

463
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 2: That's where the road comes out at. I went to

464
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: their mini mart there at Hebert, and I remember one

465
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 2: of the only numbers I had was Jim Jacka. I

466
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 2: called him because I didn't want to call the cops myself.

467
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: Why why does Greg flee? Why does he disappear for

468
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 1: a month. My first guest before I meet him is

469
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: that he's trafficking drugs commercially, But that's not true. The

470
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 1: answer is simple.

471
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 2: Because I had some pot that I wanted to save

472
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: and use on the trip back, and if I called

473
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,640
Speaker 2: the cops, they're going to say you stay right there,

474
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 2: we'll be right up there, don't go nowhere, And I

475
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 2: would have to throw that pot out because the dogs

476
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: would be over barking at me. You know, they want

477
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 2: my pot and I have to get rid of it,

478
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,239
Speaker 2: trying to be a nice guy. Well fuck that, you know,

479
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 2: I'm out of here. You call it in, Jim. It's

480
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: forest road, YadA YadA, and it's a Forerunner I don't

481
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 2: remember the collar, gray or something, and there's a dog

482
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 2: there and it's an Australian sheep dog or something like that,

483
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 2: blue whatever. He's got porcupine needles on. So that was

484
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 2: enough information that they knew he shouldn't have known what

485
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 2: kind of dog that is? Unmust he saw it?

486
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about the call when you called

487
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 1: the jackas What did you say?

488
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 2: I said, what do you used to call it? Dickhead? Hey, dickhead?

489
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: How you doing? Yeah? Whatever? Dream? I said, I think

490
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: I found that Robert Fisher's car and write this down,

491
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 2: give him the forest service road? And he had a dog.

492
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 2: The dog is this? You got a kind of dog?

493
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 2: Said for a runner? And I pretty much nailed it.

494
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 2: I said, call that in for me because I'm having to.

495
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know where I told him, I said, patient.

496
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: Maybe I didn't want them guys telling me to stay

497
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 2: there and disobey the law, because if I get Jim

498
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 2: to do it, then I'm scott free. I'm fine.

499
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: So you were just worried because he got weed with

500
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: you thought they would.

501
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd been saving it for myself for the trip back.

502
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: I had a whole month I and I wandered around.

503
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 2: It was just a little bit of pot there. But

504
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 2: I'm not throwing that ship out just because they're going

505
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 2: to come up there with her dogs barking and go

506
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: do your job out there. Look for Fisher quit looking

507
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 2: at my van.

508
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: Do you think that's why they were suspicious later, because

509
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: you left town and they didn't understand why you left

510
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: without speaking to them.

511
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 2: I think so. But they had heard from everybody that

512
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: this guy just he doesn't have an address, he didn't

513
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: have a phone. You don't give a shit about what

514
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 2: you guys are doing. I don't know how you find him.

515
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: I don't know what. You're not gonna call him, you know,

516
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 2: just when he shows up, you'll find him. But I

517
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 2: kind of took pride in that you can't touch me.

518
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: Don't matter what kind of rich you are or whatever

519
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 2: they are, you can't touch me. I'm separate from you guys.

520
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: You do what you want, and I don't care. I

521
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: don't care what's going on with Fisher. I don't like

522
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: what he did, but my life is going to keep

523
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: going this way. I'm gonna go over here and go

524
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: over there and drive up towards Fregan fuck Fisher.

525
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: On May eleventh, Greg speaks to Arizona detectives by phone

526
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: from his brother's house in Oregon.

527
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 2: I couldn't understand why there was such a big deal

528
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: out of it. I didn't do anything. I just drive

529
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 2: along and there's a car and a runner, and there's

530
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 2: a dog.

531
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: But the cops don't know that. All they know is

532
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: that a critical witness fled the state. They immediately and

533
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: understandably consider him a suspect.

534
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: They were thinking that I probably picked him up and

535
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: took him somewhere.

536
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: Later, the FBI speaks to Greg at his mom's house.

537
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 2: She's pissed because they were being real nice, and then

538
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 2: they would throw these questions in that, well, what do

539
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 2: you think about murder? What do you think about killing

540
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: your slitting the throats to the kids or whatever. She

541
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: didn't want to hear that shit, And I didn't really

542
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: want to answer them questions. What I got to do

543
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: with me slitting throats? What do you think about getting

544
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: the fuck out of here? Pieces of shit?

545
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: But you understand why they asked the questions.

546
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 2: Kind of, But I don't think what they're going to

547
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 2: get out of that? What do I think about cutting throats?

548
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that?

549
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: What do you say? When I asked those questions?

550
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 2: Probably the same thing. I'm sandy, what do you mean

551
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 2: I found his car? I didn't cut throats. I don't

552
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: know why you're asking that. What are you going to

553
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: gain from that.

554
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: I think for them that they just didn't have many leads.

555
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: And then, yeah, well, am I just kind of desperate

556
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: to find something?

557
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: And I'm going to say, yeah, I love to cut

558
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,239
Speaker 2: throats on kids. I really like doing that. You got

559
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: any kids I can slash up. I don't understand the

560
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: reasoning for what if I said yes or no? What

561
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: good'sa gonna do.

562
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: Does it make you angry that Sto's the only FBI

563
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: considered you suspect.

564
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: No, not really, because they do that to everybody. I'd

565
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 2: talked to a couple of guys since then. One guy

566
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 2: who was the library in the city had found a

567
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: body outside the library. Out there, unassuming guy just required

568
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: he says, Man, they beat him up, thinking that he

569
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: did it. He just didn't look like somebody's going to

570
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: bother anybody. He was the one that was saying, if

571
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 2: you see a body, just keep walking. You didn't see nothing,

572
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: just keep going. Don't help him out because they're not

573
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: going to take you that way.

574
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: Unlike our next person of interest, who I'll get to

575
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: in a minute, I'm confident Greg had nothing to do

576
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: with the Fisher case other than finding Mary's SUV He's

577
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: just an interesting character who lived a life many of

578
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: us fantasize about. Unencumbered in nature. Greg used to sit

579
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: on top of the muggy on rim as thunderstorms rolled in,

580
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: sweeping down onto the force that expands below, turning dust

581
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: to mud, pelting an agitated land with the life blood

582
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: it greedily soaked up.

583
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 2: Like fires in the trees. I think I've seen two

584
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 2: burning at once. They go out because it's raining so hard.

585
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: Whoever said lighting? And don't hit the same place twice?

586
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 2: It's full of shit. I've watched it hit the same

587
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: place ten times in a row.

588
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 1: At seventy four, Greg now kills time alone tinkering with stuff.

589
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: He sits at a desk, wrapped in shadows, puffs of

590
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 1: breath dispersing into the dim light of his chili metal shed.

591
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: He's drinking again, lightly, not like the old days.

592
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: The VA to over here a while back. You've got

593
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 2: curosis the liver. Oh yeah, I've deserved that, and I

594
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: should have. My lungs should be shot, but they're fine.

595
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: I smoked for fifty years. I've been going through the

596
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 2: VA and everything's come out fine, all the tests, and

597
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: I don't deserve that. There's too many people that don't

598
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,360
Speaker 2: smoke and don't drink any die early, and I want

599
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 2: to have day do wrong. I've just been trying to

600
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 2: kill myself my whole life.

601
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: Seems like Greg is content, he's prepared to die. He

602
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: doesn't want to, but he's ready. And really, when we're old,

603
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: what more can we ask?

604
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: I would have a do not resuscitate, but you got

605
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 2: to do much paperwork for that.

606
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: Do you feel a peace?

607
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm feeling more than I have in a lot

608
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: of years. Well, I tell people I never get anything

609
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 2: I want. So every night when I go to bed,

610
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 2: I pray to the Lord, please kill me tonight, please

611
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 2: just get this shit over with. I'm done, I'm out

612
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: of here. And next morning I wake up. I'm fine

613
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 2: because I don't ever get what I want. So as

614
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: long as I keep wanting to want to be dead,

615
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: and I'll be one hundred and twenty years old here

616
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: in a little while.

617
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: If you like this show, please download our first two seasons,

618
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates,

619
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: visit meon thirty three dot com or follow me on

620
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: Twitter at John waalzac Jo n Wa l Czak, thanks

621
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: for listening. Our final person of interest is the most

622
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: important by far, the person I consider likeliest to have

623
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: helped Robert Fisher before, during, or after the murders. Police

624
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: got a lead never made public until now that he

625
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: directly assisted Fisher. His name is Okay, I can't tell

626
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: you his name. I'm sorry. I'm in a tough spot.

627
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: I find him highly suspicious, but I'm unaware of any

628
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: evidence proving his complicity in these crimes. Furthermore, one of

629
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: his kids accused him of physic, cole verbal, and sexual abuse.

630
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: To protect her identity, I need to hide his so

631
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: let's call him Tony. Tony is a fifty nine year

632
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: old white male, four years younger than Robert Fisher. He

633
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: used to work for the State of Arizona. He's now retired.

634
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, Scottsdeal detective Hugh Lockerby and

635
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: FBI agent Bob Caldwell showed up at Tony's job. They

636
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: first went to human resources, trying to get his employment

637
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: records from April two thousand and one. A manager confirmed

638
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: they existed, but said she would need a subpoena to

639
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: release them. They then spoke to Tony's supervisor, and finally

640
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: they tried to find Tony himself. They ran into him

641
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: outside his building asked to speak in private. He agreed.

642
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: From a police report quote.

643
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 5: We interviewed Tony about his knowledge of Robert Fisher. At first,

644
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 5: when we asked Tony if he knew Robert Fisher, he

645
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 5: stated he did not recognize the name. We next explained

646
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 5: to Tony that Fisher had gone to the same church,

647
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 5: Scottsdale Baptist as him in two thousand and one, and

648
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 5: Fisher had killed his family in Scottsdale and burned the

649
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 5: house down. At this time, Tony acknowledged that he did

650
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 5: remember Fisher but did not know him. Tony then began

651
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 5: stating that the incident was a tragedy and he remembered

652
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 5: when it occurred. As the interview continued, we asked Tony

653
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 5: if he recognized Fisher at church, and he said no.

654
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 5: Tony stated that when he saw Fisher's picture in the paper,

655
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 5: he did not recognize him. Tony stated when he saw

656
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 5: Fisher's wife, Mary's picture, he recognized her because his ex

657
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 5: wife used to talk to Mary after church. Tony stated

658
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 5: that when his wife was speaking with Mary, he never

659
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 5: saw Fisher around her. We asked Tony if his children

660
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 5: ever played with the Fisher children, and he said they did,

661
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 5: but that his ex wife arranged that. We asked Tony

662
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 5: if he ever did any activities with Fisher, and he

663
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 5: said no. We asked Tony if he ever went hunting

664
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 5: or fishing with Fisher, and he said no. Tony stated

665
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 5: that he does not hunt, but only Fisher's. Tony told

666
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 5: us that he got a divorce from sometime in two

667
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 5: thousand and one. Tony stated that he thinks moved to

668
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 5: with their kids. Tony stated that he has not seen

669
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 5: them in a long time. During the interview with Tony,

670
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 5: he appeared to be very nervous and was breathing heavily.

671
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: When I hear this, what jumps out to me is

672
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: not that Tony got nervous when the police and FBI

673
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: showed up at his job, which is understandable. It's that

674
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: he denied recognizing the name Robert Fisher, and then, with

675
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: gentle prodding, he remembered the guy at his church who

676
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: murdered his family, burned down their house, and was on

677
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: the FBI's ten most wanted list. Ah yes him. Suddenly

678
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: he recalled that his wife knew Mary Fisher, and that

679
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: his kids knew and played with the Fisher kids. It's

680
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: a big leap from I don't recognize the name Robert

681
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: Fisher to my wife knew his wife, my kids, his kids,

682
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: all the while appearing nervous, breathing heavily. This lead stunned me.

683
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: I immediately started investigating independently. Here's what I learned. First,

684
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: I verified that Tony and his family did, in fact

685
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: attend Scottsdale bout A Church at the same time as

686
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: the Fishers. Their names appear in a nineteen ninety seven directory,

687
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: a copy of which I obtained. One of Tony's kids

688
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: was the same age as Brittany Fisher. Second, Tony had

689
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: some rough years in the late nineties and early two thousands.

690
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: In April nineteen ninety nine, his wife filed for divorce.

691
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: She moved out and took their two kids with her.

692
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: That September, Tony crashed his truck into a tree, killing

693
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: his brother. The accident took place in the Apache Sikgreaves

694
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: National Forest, where Robert Fisher was photographed less than three

695
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: months later, at a spot only thirty miles from where

696
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: police later found Mary's fore runner. At the time, Tony

697
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: was driving a green pickup truck. I'm not sure what

698
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: happened to it, if it was discarded or salvaged, but

699
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: a green pickup later shows up in two leads tied

700
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: to the Fisher case. Listen to this clip. I found

701
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: it while combing through archival news footage.

702
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 6: Right now, we're looking for a late model Dodge Dakota truck.

703
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: HeLa County Sheriff's deputy got a bird's eye view of

704
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: the Tanto National Forest, eyes peeled to the ground looking

705
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: for any signs of Fisher.

706
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 6: This truck earlier went through the little roadblock we have

707
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 6: down there, didn't stop, and everybody's been looking for it.

708
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: It's unclear how or why someone drove through a roadblock

709
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: on Young Highway as police hunted Fisher in April two

710
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: thousand and one. This isn't just suspicious, it's also an

711
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 1: embarrassing security breach. Later that year, on August, twelve, weeks

712
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: before nine to eleven, someone reported seeing Fisher driving a

713
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: green pickup in Scottsdale. Now, obviously a ton of people

714
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 1: owned green pickups, not just Tony, but still I want

715
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: to mention it just in case the nineteen ninety nine

716
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: crash that killed Tony's brother took place only seventy two

717
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: hours after police investigated Tony for allegedly abusing his daughter physically, verbally,

718
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: and sexually. It's feasible to think that the investigation took

719
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: a toll on him, severely affect his mental state, possibly

720
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: playing a role in the crash. I obtained a copy

721
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: of a police report on the alleged abuse. I'm not

722
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: publishing certain details, for example, on the sexual abuse claims,

723
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: but here's what I can tell you. Tony quote terrified

724
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: his daughter. She was scared he would hurt her mom.

725
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: She wrote a school paper titled Fearful for Life, in

726
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: which she said, quote, every night, I'd wonder if he'd

727
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: really kill me if he had the chance, with the

728
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: same conclusion, yes. She showed scars to officers and said

729
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: they were from her father's abuse. She claimed he punched

730
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: her and hit her with a belt, knocking her down

731
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: and leaving her in pain for days. She said he

732
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: threw glasses at her feet, which shattered and cut her legs.

733
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: She claimed he made her and her sibling hold soap

734
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: in their mouths until they gagged and threw up when

735
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: she was younger. She said her dad told her a

736
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: story about a wolf, and then as she was falling asleep,

737
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: he would quote makes scratching noises at the door and

738
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: wild animal sounds until she cried. He allegedly did this

739
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: for years. As a result, she feared the dark and

740
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: had trouble sleeping without a night light. She told police

741
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: that he was capable of killing her and her sibling.

742
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: Remember this was in nineteen ninety nine, a year and

743
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: a half before the Fisher murders. That May, a judge

744
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: barred Tony from contacting his wife or kids in person.

745
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 7: Quote the court finds that the defendant represents a credible

746
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 7: threat to the physical safety of the plaintiff, his wife

747
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 7: or other protected person, his children, and or may inflict

748
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 7: bodily injury or death on the plaintiff. The judge prohibited

749
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 7: Tony from possessing, receiving, or purchasing guns or ammunition. In July,

750
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 7: his daughter told a counselor that Tony used the threat

751
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 7: of murder to keep her quiet. Quote if you tell

752
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 7: mom about the abuse, I will kill you, counselor, you

753
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 7: mean he would get physical with you, No, I mean

754
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 7: he would kill me. She said, why didn't you tell

755
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 7: your mom? He said he would hurt mom. Tony's daughter

756
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 7: told a different counselor that she worried her dad would

757
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 7: abduct her. He only wanted to remain in her life

758
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 7: quote based on his need to control. Years earlier, Tony

759
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 7: faced a separate allegation that he sexually abused a child

760
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 7: his wife babysat. He vehemently denied abusing any child. He

761
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 7: was never prosecuted. Not only that, he said, but after

762
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 7: his daughter's allegations, police didn't even bother contacting him, indicating

763
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 7: to him that they didn't believe her. In April two thousand,

764
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 7: a year before the Fisher murders, in a court filing,

765
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 7: Tony submitted a list of character witnesses who might testify

766
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 7: on his behalf.

767
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: I immediately recognized two names. Greg Cantelmo, Robert Fisher's pastor, who

768
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: didn't respond to interview requests, and Jim Rodin, Robert's friend,

769
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: who doesn't remember Tony. Do you recognize the name's.

770
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: Questions No.

771
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: By early two thousand and one, Tony was broke. He

772
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 1: was in debt, He needed money. He couldn't even afford

773
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: to pay his attorney, who like his wife dumped him.

774
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: One night in February two thousand and one, seven weeks

775
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: before the Fisher murders, Tony allegedly idled outside his family's

776
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 1: home ominously before speeding off, prompting his wife to obtain

777
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: a second protective order. On March twentieth, a judge told

778
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: Tony's wife to put his belongings, including camping gear and

779
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: fishing equipment, in a storage unit. On April third, a

780
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: week before the Fisher murders, Tony met his wife's attorney

781
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: to pick up his stuff. Two other witnesses were present.

782
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: On April tenth, Robert Fisher allegedly slit the throats of

783
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: his wife and kids, blew up his house, and escaped.

784
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: On April sixteenth, Tony provided the court a list of

785
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: items he claimed his wife failed to return, including, intriguingly,

786
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: a red handled fishing knife. Let me pause and review

787
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: what we've learned so far. Police got a lead that

788
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: Tony assisted Robert before, during, or after the murders. Tony,

789
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: his family, and the Fishers attended the same church. Tony's

790
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: wife knew Mary, Tony's kids knew the Fisher kids. In

791
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 1: a court filing, Tony named two people who knew Robert,

792
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: Greg Cantelmo and Jim Rodin as potential character witnesses. Investigators

793
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: interviewed Tony in two thousand and eight. He appeared nervous

794
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: and was breathing heavily. He claimed not to recognize the

795
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: name Robert Fisher. Then magically his memory returned. He suddenly

796
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: remembered not only Robert, but that their families were friends.

797
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety nine, Tony's wife left him, took the kids,

798
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: got a protective order. His daughter accused him of abuse, physical, verbal,

799
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: and sexual. She expressed fear that he would kill their family.

800
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: The cops investigated Tony. Only seventy two hours later, he

801
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 1: crashed his pickup truck into a tree, killing his brother

802
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: in a forest in which Robert Fisher was photographed. Left

803
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: less than three months later at a spot thirty miles

804
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: from where police later found Mary Fisher's forerunner. Tony was

805
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: heavily in debt he needed money. Six days after the

806
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: Fisher murders, Tony claimed in a court filing that his

807
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: wife hadn't given him back a red handled fishing knife,

808
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: which was now missing. He said, next, I found the

809
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: name of a woman with whom Tony was allegedly having

810
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 1: an affair in two thousand and one, I reached out

811
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: to her, she didn't respond. I had a private investigator

812
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: run a background check on Tony. It came back clean,

813
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: no criminal charges. But I kept digging and discovered that

814
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, Tony was arrested for soliciting a prostitute.

815
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: He allegedly saw an ad on backpage dot com. An

816
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: undercover cop texted you coming to see me today eighty

817
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: or one hundred for bareback. Tony showed up at a

818
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: motel to meet the woman, was arrested, but again, for

819
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: some reason, not prosecuted. Here's why this matter. Because of

820
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: the arrest, Tony's fingerprints are now on file with the

821
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: department that arrested him, not Scottsdale, a different department. In

822
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, when investigators interviewed Tony, his prints

823
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: were not on file and they didn't have probable cause

824
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: to obtain them. I don't think Scottsdale or the FBI

825
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: were aware until now that a different department subsequently arrested

826
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: and finger printed him. They should compare his prints to

827
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: those recovered from Mary Fisher's forerunner. They should reinterview Tony,

828
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: his ex wife, his parents, who by the way, had

829
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: property in northern Arizona, and what happened to the red

830
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 1: handled fishing knife. This is a critical lead. It should

831
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: be investigated again. Let's sink back to episode two. We

832
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,479
Speaker 1: found two new witnesses, both of whom changed the case.

833
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: Timeline Peter, a neighbor, and Bud Wolfe, a newspaper delivery man.

834
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 1: Both saw Mary's suv at the Fisher house on April

835
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: tenth at three thirty am and Bud at five point thirty,

836
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: proving that Robert Fisher did not flee the night before

837
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: after visiting the atm. Their testimony tells us that between

838
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: three point thirty and seven thirty am, someone pulled Robert's

839
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: truck out of the driveway, Mary's suv into the driveway,

840
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: Robert's truck behind the suv, the truck out again, the

841
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: suv out, the truck back, and then drove away in

842
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: the suv, all on a small cul de sac. I

843
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: can't explain this. My best guess, which is still lacking,

844
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: is that after the murders, Robert wanted to load up

845
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: Mary's for runner with supplies without drawing attention from the neighbors,

846
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: so he parked as close as possible to the house,

847
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: then moved his truck behind the suv to better hide

848
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 1: his activity. Regardless of why this game of musical cars

849
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: took place, it seems to be a small piece of

850
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence that someone else was at the Fisher house

851
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: the night of the murders. It makes more sense that

852
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: two people shuffled around the vehicles, which, if true, would

853
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: mean Robert had help and accomplice at least to clean

854
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: up and escape. Now, let's think back to episode three.

855
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: I shared emails I got from the son of the

856
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: Fisher's next door neighbor, the odd Son, whose mom heard

857
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: Robert and Mary fighting the night of April ninth. I

858
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: bleeped things, said i'd share them later, and I did,

859
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 1: except for one a final reveal. The odd Son told

860
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: me that on April ninth, his mom.

861
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 4: Saw and Fisher fiddling with the gas light into the

862
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 4: house heard the gunshot that killed Mary.

863
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: Okay, y'all, let's remove that beep. On the night of

864
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: the murders, he said, his mom.

865
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 4: Saw the helper's white truck in the alley and Fisher

866
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 4: fiddling with the gas light into the house. Heard the

867
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 4: gunshot that killed Mary.

868
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: The helper's white truck in the alley. Okay, So we're

869
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: in the alley behind Robert Fisher's home. It's kind of

870
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: overgrown a little bit. There's detritus in garbage. This alley

871
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 1: is kind of impressive. It loops all the way around

872
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: the cul de sac and now we're going back to

873
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: the main street. What is that street? Ok okay, okay, yeah.

874
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: Is that detecting like obstacles?

875
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: Why is it?

876
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, So this is overgrown enough that there are

877
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,959
Speaker 1: bushes and trees that are poking out, and the car

878
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 1: is detecting and beeping for obstacles. The alley is actually

879
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: a small road. It circles the entire block and connects

880
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: directly to Oak Street, a thoroughfare. It makes sense that

881
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: if Robert Fisher had help, his accomplice would use the alley.

882
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: Listen closely to this clip from a Fisher home video.

883
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 4: Baby Bi Tira, you say I.

884
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 2: Love it, I love you.

885
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: That click at the end was Robert closing a gate

886
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: connecting his backyard to the alley after driving a pickup

887
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: truck through it. I decide to ask investigators about Tony

888
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 1: the likeliest accomplice.

889
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 3: His wife left him.

890
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: Former FBI agent Bob calledwell.

891
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: He was an abusive abuser in the family, according to

892
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 3: the wife, to the point where she had to get

893
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 3: the kids and leave.

894
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 1: He lied to us about Noan Robert.

895
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 3: We know that, but we kept pressing, kept pressing, kept

896
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,959
Speaker 3: looking into him, and at that time, again, he's one.

897
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: Of those people.

898
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 3: He just didn't want to talk to us, didn't want

899
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 3: anything to do with it, kept denying it. But we

900
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 3: didn't have enough anything to charge him with. He's got

901
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 3: his rights, he doesn't have to talk to us. That

902
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 3: was one It was always left open. It's like, you know, okay,

903
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 3: we know you're lying to us. We know you knew

904
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 3: him a lot better than you're saying you did, but

905
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 3: we had nothing to other than to prove.

906
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: It's such a massive red flag though for somebody to say,

907
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: I don't remember that name. It's one thing to say

908
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: I don't have anything to do with it. It's another

909
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: to say, the person at my church in a nice,

910
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 1: quiet suburb who murdered his family and blewt their house,

911
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: So I don't remember who you're talking about. Wouldn't that

912
00:45:58,160 --> 00:45:59,720
Speaker 1: indicate that he was hiding something?

913
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 6: Yeah?

914
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, was a person of interests Yeah, gods still, Lieutenant

915
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: Hugh Lockerby.

916
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a person of an interest.

917
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: We tried to get him to come to a polygraph.

918
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: He said he would do it, and then the next

919
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 2: day you never showed up.

920
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 6: Bob and I were pretty convinced that he knew some

921
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 6: more about it than he was leading us to believe.

922
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: At this point, I know that I have to try

923
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: to speak to Tony myself. I want to catch him

924
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: off guard, so I show up at his home unannounced.

925
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: I'm concerned for my safety that he'll fly into a

926
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: rage and attack me, but I figure the odds of

927
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: him being home are low, and even if he is home,

928
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: he'll slam the door in my face, and even if

929
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: he doesn't, he'll tell me to get lost. No matter what.

930
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: He won't talk right next time, I'm missing in Arizona,

931
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: and if you keep asking me this, I'm going to

932
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: call the police and have you removed from my property.

933
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,879
Speaker 1: You can reach just by phone at one eight three

934
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: three new tips that's one eight three three six three

935
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: nine eight four seven seven by email at tips at

936
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. Tips at iHeartMedia dot com, online at

937
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: Neon thirty three dot com or on Twitter at John Waalzac,

938
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 1: j O n w A l Czak. This episode produced

939
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: by Taylor Shacoyne and nik JOA Worski at Podcast Monster.

940
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: Paul Dekan is our executive producer. Chris Brown is our

941
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 1: supervising producer. Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer. Additional production

942
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,399
Speaker 1: support by Evan Tyre. Paul Gemberlin is our researcher, Ben

943
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: Bolan is a consulting producer, and I'm your host and

944
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: executive producer John Waalzac. Recreation's voice by Ben Hackett, Taylor Shacogne,

945
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 1: and Ben Bolan. Header's voiced by Ben Bolan and using

946
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: altraed Ai software. Cover art by Pam Peacock. Neon thirty

947
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: three logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro song is

948
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: Utopia by ruby Cube. Please download the first two seasons

949
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: of our show, Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine

950
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give us a

951
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a co production

952
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three.