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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to short stuff. I'm Josh. There's chuck and

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Speaker 1: this is short stuff when we are talking about a

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Speaker 1: little nursery rhyme pretty adorable in its nature that you

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Speaker 1: may have heard of before. It's called Mary had a

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Speaker 1: little lamb. Wait a minute, was was this lamb's fleece

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Speaker 1: as white as snow? It was? And there was something

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Speaker 1: remarkable about it, and that wherever Mary went, the lamb

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Speaker 1: went as well. It sounds like a stalker to me

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Speaker 1: a little bit. So this is pretty interesting and that

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Speaker 1: this is controversial. I mean this cute little nursery rhyme

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Speaker 1: that every English speaking kid on the planet has heard

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Speaker 1: at one time or another, especially if you're raised in America.

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Speaker 1: Um may have had Number one a real life origin

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Speaker 1: and number two. There are two towns in Massachusetts and

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire where the local historical societies will fight each

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Speaker 1: other with bike chains and brass knuckles if they run

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Speaker 1: into one another in public. Yeah, this is really interesting.

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Speaker 1: In Sterling, Massachusetts, if you go, you're going to see

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Speaker 1: a little copper statue of a little lamb and it's

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Speaker 1: um Mary saw yours little lamb, specifically, which she brought

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Speaker 1: to school in eighteen fifteen. She was a little girl

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Speaker 1: who uh, and this I guess we should say allegedly

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Speaker 1: for all this stuff, because there everyone's saying that each

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Speaker 1: other is wrong. So allegedly, Mary say this little lamb

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Speaker 1: nursed it back to health overnight, and over a few

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Speaker 1: days the lamb got much better. And then she was

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Speaker 1: going to go to school one day, and her brother

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Speaker 1: Nat said, won't you bring that lamb to school since

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Speaker 1: you love it so much? And she did bring the

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Speaker 1: lamb to school, hiding it in a basket under her chair,

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Speaker 1: And at one point she stands up to take part

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Speaker 1: in a recitation lesson and the lamb bleats. The teacher laughs.

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Speaker 1: She takes a lamb outside and kills it. No, just

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Speaker 1: takes a lamb outside and stores it in the shed.

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Speaker 1: But this caught the idea of a guy named or

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Speaker 1: the eye of a guy named John roll Stone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was an older boy who I guess was visiting

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Speaker 1: the schoolhouse where all this took place that day. He

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Speaker 1: was on his way off to Harvard, and he died

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Speaker 1: shortly after of tuberculosis. But before that he wrote a

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Speaker 1: poem through several lines, just basically what everybody knows from

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Speaker 1: Mary had a little lamb. Um. Supposedly that night he

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Speaker 1: was so taken by this thing, by this event, came

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Speaker 1: back the next day on horseback and handed Mary the

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Speaker 1: little poem he wrote for her. And Mary Sawyer went

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Speaker 1: on for the rest of her life as Mary the

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Speaker 1: girl with the little lamb that she'd nurse back to health.

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Speaker 1: And these the source of the famous nursery rhyme Mary

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Speaker 1: had a little lamb. Yeah, And it's important to note

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Speaker 1: that he wrote but three stanzas of that poem. And

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Speaker 1: I think he was just thought it was cute. I

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Speaker 1: think it's an adorable story that not only did she

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Speaker 1: nurse this little lamb and take it to school, but this,

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Speaker 1: you know, rising freshman at Harvard, was so smitten with

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Speaker 1: this whole thing on his little visit to the school

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Speaker 1: that he wrote a poem about it. That's right, it's adorable.

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Speaker 1: Then he died of tuberculosis later that year. Point that

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Speaker 1: out again and so he um he So John Rawlstone

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Speaker 1: and Mary Sawyer are the source of the inspiration and

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Speaker 1: the basis of that nursery roome. Mary had a little lamb.

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Speaker 1: As far as Sterling, Massachusetts is concerned. But if you

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Speaker 1: uh drive a little further north, about ninety miles north

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Speaker 1: into New Hampshire, southwest New Hampshire, you come across the

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Speaker 1: town of Newport, UM, you will get a totally different

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Speaker 1: story that their their position is basically that Mary Sawyer

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Speaker 1: was a lying old lady who lied her whole life

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Speaker 1: and made up this fantastic tale, and that it was

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Speaker 1: really Sarah Joseph Hale, who was a native of Newport,

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire, UM, who was very famous for setting up

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Speaker 1: the first Thanksgiving in the United States, UM, like as

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Speaker 1: a as a national holiday. She's the one that made

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Speaker 1: that happen. UM. That she's the one who wrote Mary

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Speaker 1: had a little lamb, Right, And I think we should

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Speaker 1: take a break. Uh. And before we do that, I

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Speaker 1: want to point out that Josh did not misspeak. Her

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Speaker 1: middle name was Josepha and not Joseph or Joseph. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it just sounded a little funny and people might think,

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Speaker 1: why did Josh spice that one up? But a little

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Speaker 1: mustard on. So we'll come back and explain more about

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Speaker 1: her story and where Henry Ford figures in right after this.

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Speaker 1: All right, So, Sarah Josepha Josepha Hale, I like Josepha

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Speaker 1: but I hadn't considered Josepha. That's a good one too.

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Speaker 1: That sounds really biblical, Like she she suddenly just grew

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Speaker 1: a beard without a mustache, right, you know what I mean? Yes, Like,

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Speaker 1: come to me, Josepha and let me put oils on

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Speaker 1: your feet. Right, That's exactly what I was thinking. Weird.

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Speaker 1: Remember what congressman was it that literally anointed? It was Ashcroft?

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Speaker 1: I think, wasn't it? Was it? Yeah, what a bizarre

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Speaker 1: time it was. I think it was. It was Ashcroft.

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Speaker 1: You're totally right. I think he also sang some weird

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Speaker 1: patriotic song about the eagle flying high around the same

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Speaker 1: time he got some bad press. Everybody was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: you're bonkers, buddy, oh man, I missed that guy. He

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Speaker 1: was fun fund for the news cycle. He really was, alright.

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Speaker 1: So Sarah Josepha Hale moved to Boston in eight She

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Speaker 1: was a poet and a writer, and she was actually

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Speaker 1: the editor of the very first women's magazine in the

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Speaker 1: US called Gotti's Ladies Book. And it was here in

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Speaker 1: Boston that she met a man named Lowell Mason, who

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Speaker 1: was a musician and composer, who said, you know what

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Speaker 1: if we get some of these poems and set them

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Speaker 1: to music. They would be called songs, and we can

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Speaker 1: use these in schools to make a little kid's good

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Speaker 1: moral kids. When I think of Lowell Um, this kind

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Speaker 1: of folk musician, children's music study proponent guy. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever seen that Mr. Show where David Crosses, like the

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Speaker 1: the guy who sculpted the little the little body that

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Speaker 1: he moves from Appalachian folk art. That guy, That's who

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Speaker 1: I think of when I think of this guy, you know,

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Speaker 1: just kind of weird and hapless and like out of

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Speaker 1: it and um, like his whole focus is learning to

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Speaker 1: to to get music into schools for children and just

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Speaker 1: I don't know why, but it's really stuck in there.

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Speaker 1: You know. Our buddy Scott Ackerman wrote for Mr. Show.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of his entree into the entertainment industry.

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Speaker 1: And he does, yeah, he does a spot on impression

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Speaker 1: of Bob Odenkirk. Oh yeah, Oh it's great. I gotta

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Speaker 1: see that. It's very funny. Alright, So Mason and Hale

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Speaker 1: are writing uh songs together. They put fifteen poems to

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Speaker 1: music called Poems for Our Children, and uh, we should

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Speaker 1: point out that the original tune that they wrote for

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Speaker 1: her version of Mary had a Little Lamb was not

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Speaker 1: the familiar melody that we know that came on later.

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, apparently that comes from a British song

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Speaker 1: that goes, um, merrily we roll along, roll along, roll

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Speaker 1: along merrily, we roll along over the dark blue sea.

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Speaker 1: Hey nice, Oh, thank you, thank you. I've practiced pretty

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Speaker 1: extensively for it was on key um, I'm a little

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Speaker 1: tone deaf, was a little pitchy, but it was fine.

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Speaker 1: I'll go with it was fine, No, it was good.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that came on later. The original melody. I

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Speaker 1: don't even think we know that, do we No? But

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Speaker 1: if you can get your hands on Juvenile Liar leer

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Speaker 1: l y r e that that book that it was

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Speaker 1: originally in, I think the notes are in there. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like in a Gotta Da Vida, that's your

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Speaker 1: go to. So Mary Sawyer going back to her the

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Speaker 1: little girl who allegedly actually nurse this little lamb who

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Speaker 1: followed her around and stalked her. She said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: those first three verses of your poem, miss Hale, is

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Speaker 1: exactly like the ones that John roll Stone wrote about

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Speaker 1: my true story. What is up with that? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: guess she just thought that somehow, Sarah Josepha Hale Um

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Speaker 1: had gotten her hands somehow on this this poem that

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Speaker 1: John Rolstone had had written for and just expanded on

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Speaker 1: that um. And Sarah Joseph Hale was like, no, that's

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Speaker 1: not it at all. I made this whole thing up

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Speaker 1: from scratch, using strictly my imagination. I've never heard of

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Speaker 1: you or your delightful little story from your childhood about

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Speaker 1: the lamb h sounds totally made up by the way, right,

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Speaker 1: And so that this was like, so now you had

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Speaker 1: two upstanding women, Sarah Joseph Hale, the founder of the

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Speaker 1: the American holiday Thanksgiving, and Mary Sawyer, who went on

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Speaker 1: to become the matron of her local hospital. We're basically

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Speaker 1: saying that one another was lying without saying that one

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Speaker 1: another was lying, and two towns like reputations were on

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Speaker 1: the line. Yeah, and they they actually, as older ladies,

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Speaker 1: signed sworn statements saying that what they were saying was

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Speaker 1: true and correct. And uh, it kind of went on

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Speaker 1: like this for a little while. And I promised Henry

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Speaker 1: Ford and here we're going to deliver, because in automobile

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Speaker 1: magnate Henry Ford got involved and was firmly in the

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Speaker 1: Mary Sawyer camp. Um. He was just a fan of hers,

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Speaker 1: I guess, because he bought the original frame from that

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Speaker 1: red schoolhouse and moved it to Sudbury, where he owned

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Speaker 1: an inn. And he wrote a book about this, called

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Speaker 1: The Story of Mary and her Little Lamb. I find

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Speaker 1: that him moving the end to Sudbury confuses this story

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Speaker 1: tremendously because it just takes two small towns and adds

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Speaker 1: a third one unnecessarily if you ask me, sure you know.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, Henry Ford wrote a sixty page book just

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Speaker 1: basically touting Mary Sawyer's story, much to the chagrin of

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Speaker 1: the town of Newport, New Hampshire and its historical society. UM.

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Speaker 1: And to this day they will say, like Henry Ford

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Speaker 1: made a great car. Um. I don't know how he

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Speaker 1: would be really as in a story, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: his opinion doesn't count for much. What I want to

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Speaker 1: know is what was on the other fifty six pages, right?

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Speaker 1: You know, couldn't have taken more than four to tell

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Speaker 1: this little story. No, I know, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: he he talked about. And I think my my joke

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Speaker 1: bone is broken because I can't come up with anything

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Speaker 1: stupid to add, well, it depends on There are very

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Speaker 1: much two camps here and to this day, people that

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Speaker 1: defend Hale, I mean people that defense Sawyers are like,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is a sweet, sweet girl who had

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Speaker 1: the sweet story. Why would she make this up and

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Speaker 1: tell it her whole life? And Hail defenders were like, well,

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Speaker 1: why would she just conjure up this poem out of

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Speaker 1: thin air? Or I mean, why would she copy it

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Speaker 1: and claim she conjured it from thin air? Because they like,

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Speaker 1: she wouldn't have even known about this poem? Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: just from what I can tell, she doesn't seem like

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Speaker 1: the type who would have committed plagiarism and then stuck

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Speaker 1: to the lie her entire life. Yeah, so mystery. It's

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Speaker 1: a mystery, and even Henry Ford couldn't solve it. But

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Speaker 1: to end this one because we don't really have a

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Speaker 1: resolution to it. There is um Like the the full

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Speaker 1: poem by Sarah Joseph Hale. It ends pretty cutely because

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Speaker 1: she's talking about how um everyone wanted to know why

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Speaker 1: the lamb loved Mary so much, and in the poem

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Speaker 1: it says, well, it's because Mary loves the lamb back

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Speaker 1: and then it ends with and you, each gentle animal,

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Speaker 1: and confidence may bind and make them follow at your will,

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Speaker 1: if only you are kind. And then a sweet thing

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Speaker 1: to teach little kids be kind of animals, and you

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Speaker 1: can basically be the boss of them. Yes, and you

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Speaker 1: will never be a serial killer. That's right, because you're

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Speaker 1: kind to them rather than tortures of them. That's right. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's it for short stuff. Everybody, we're out. Stuff you

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Speaker 1: should know is a production of iHeart Radios. How stuff

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Speaker 1: works for more podcasts for my heart Radio because at

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Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. H m hm