1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. I got to talk to 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: Toby Ball recently. That's the creator and host of the 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: podcast Rip Current. Rip Current explores the story of the 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: two assassination attempts that were carried out against President Gerald Ford. 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: Those took place less than three weeks apart in nineteen 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: seventy five. The first assassination attempt was carried out by 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: Lynette from also known as Squeaky, who was already infamous 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: because of her involvement with the Manson family. The other 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: was by Sarah Jane Moore, who had become an FBI 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: informant and is most known today for this assassination attempt. 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: Our interview talks a bit about these two women and 14 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: some parallels in what led each of them to try 15 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: to assassinate Gerald Ford. But it's also really about what 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: goes into creating a podcast like this, which incorporates a 17 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: lot of things like interviews and archival footage. So we'll 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: get to it. Hi, Toby, Welcome to the show. 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 20 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: Can you just start off telling me a little bit 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: about your background. 22 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 3: Sure, so I've sort of been a jack of all trades, 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 3: master of none. I started off working out a magazine. 24 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 3: I worked at a couple of universities. I've taught high school. 25 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 3: I worked at our state Humanities Council. And then I 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 3: started getting into podcasting. About ten years ago, I'm on 27 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: a panel discussion that's still going on, sort of reviews 28 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 3: true crime podcast and television. And then about you know, 29 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 3: five or six years ago, I you know, I had 30 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 3: been reviewing so many podcasts that I thought maybe I 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: should actually and make one and see what that was 32 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 3: all about and sort of the decisions you have to 33 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: make and the issues run into And so I did, 34 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 3: and that ended up being the first season of Strange Arrivals, 35 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 3: which is a sort of a skeptical look at belief 36 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: in UFOs. I did three seasons of that, and that's 37 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 3: an iHeart podcast. And about two years ago started working 38 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 3: on the podcast I'm here to talk about called Rip Current, 39 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 3: which was sort of more kind of up my alley 40 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,119 Speaker 3: and in my area of interest. 41 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: Okay, so I'd like our listeners to have sort of 42 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: a sense of the show that we're talking about so 43 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: we are going to play the trailer for it right here. 44 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 3: This summer, A lone gunman on a rooftop reminded us 45 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 3: that American presidents have long been the targets of assassins. 46 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 3: Nearly fifty years ago, President Gerald Ford faced two attempts 47 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: on his life in less than three weeks. September fifth, 48 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy five, Sacramento, California, in a crowd outside the 49 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 3: Capitol Building, a woman pulls a gun on President Ford. 50 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the 51 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: victim of an assassin. 52 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: Today, a woman dressed in a long red skirt pointed 53 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 3: a forty five caliber pistol at the President. 54 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: And I saw a woman start to go down and 55 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: her arm go back, and I saw the gun. 56 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 4: September twenty second, San Francisco, on the steps of the 57 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 4: Saint Francis Hotel, another woman tries to kill the President. 58 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 3: A woman fired a shot at President Ford in San 59 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 3: Francisco this afternoon. 60 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: She was right at the front of the robe and 61 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: forty feet away. 62 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 4: When he walked out, President waved to the crowds and 63 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 4: they had cheered him, and that's when it happened. 64 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: I yelled the she's got a gun. 65 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 3: In two hundred and fifty years of US history, these 66 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: are the only two times we know of that a 67 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: woman has tried to assassinate a sitting president. 68 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 4: The two events were separated by seventeen days, in less 69 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 4: than ninety miles, and the two assassins had never met. 70 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 3: One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. 71 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 3: She is twenty six year old Lynette Alice from nickname Squeaky. 72 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 4: I always felt like Glynnette was kind of his right 73 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 4: hand woman, a. 74 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 3: Good curtain, a very good person. The other a middle 75 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 3: aged housewife, an aspiring radical, rookie undercover for the FBI 76 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 3: in the Violent Revolutionary. 77 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: Underground, identified by police Sarah Jane Moore in her forties. 78 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 4: Because she didn't look like a radical, she could enter 79 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,239 Speaker 4: into these areas that other people couldn't. 80 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 2: A spy. 81 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 3: Basically, I was the person in the intent was exactly 82 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: as I stated in court, to wealthily and know any assassinator. 83 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 3: On Off four, the Persson of in United States. 84 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 4: This season, on the podcast Rip Current, we ask why 85 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 4: these women? She was a gentle client. 86 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 3: I thought he's loving girl. 87 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 4: Why did they want to kill President Ford, being the 88 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 4: appointee of President Nixon, it's understandable to me that in 89 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 4: their minds he should also be the object of their hatred. 90 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 4: And why this time, this place. 91 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: One does not have to condone everything in hate Ashbury 92 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: to know that it exists. 93 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 3: Back then, there were lots of communes, There were lots 94 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 3: of guru varieties. 95 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: Manson told his followers that this would be a blood 96 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: bath in the streets of every American city. What starts 97 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: as a hippie love called transmographied into a violent criminal enterprise. 98 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: Five persons, including actress Sharon Tape, were found dead. 99 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 4: We realize that we're dealing with very violent underground groups. 100 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 2: Or corporate enemies of the people. Will be shut on 101 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 2: at any time and any play. 102 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: The goals were anarchy, a lot of anarchy. 103 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 4: The revolutionary groups would get their power. 104 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,679 Speaker 1: The bloodiest and most massive gun battle in the history 105 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: of Los Angeles. 106 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 2: Random violence, political violence. There was just no let up. 107 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: Yes to the fact that insect the praise to find 108 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: the life of the people. 109 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: These people aren't just a bunch of nuts. They're perfectly 110 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 2: willing to die for what they're doing. Someplace else that 111 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 2: would have been like a big deal, but not in California. 112 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 3: The story of one strange and violent Summer this season 113 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 3: on Rip Current. 114 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: So tell me what drew you to this particular story. 115 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: So I was doing some research. 116 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 3: I wanted to do something about, you know, radicalism. I 117 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 3: was looking at the nineteen seventies. I was doing a 118 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 3: lot of research, and I ran across the story of 119 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 3: Sarah Jane Moore, who I'm sure we're about to talk 120 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 3: more about. She's just a very interesting story. And then 121 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 3: doing that research, found out that she was actually the 122 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: second person to try and assassinate Gerald Ford in September 123 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 3: of nineteen seventy five, and the first person was a 124 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 3: woman named Lynette From, better known as Squeaky From, who 125 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 3: is one of Charles Manson's followers. And in fact, those 126 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: are the only two women who have ever tried to 127 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 3: assassinate a sitting US president as far as we know. 128 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: So starting with that seemed like a quirk of history. 129 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 3: So started doing some more research into them and trying 130 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 3: to find out are there commonalities between their two stories, 131 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 3: like why in two hundred and fifty years of US 132 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 3: history are there only two times that a woman has 133 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 3: tried to assassinate a president and why was it seventeen 134 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 3: days apart in September of nineteen seventy So I had 135 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: sort of these questions. I wasn't sure if there was 136 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 3: going to be sort of a satisfactory answer, right. It 137 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 3: could just be a complete quirk, or one could have 138 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 3: been inspired by the other. But the more I kind 139 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 3: of dug into it, the more sort of pattern sort 140 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 3: of emerged in things commonalities you could find. Even though 141 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 3: it wasn't they didn't follow exactly the same path, there 142 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: was enough that was common in their situations, and then 143 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 3: also some other people who are sort of tangentially involved 144 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 3: in the story. 145 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: So one of the things that really has stood out 146 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: to me in the episodes that I've listened to, which 147 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: are the ones that are publicly available as of when 148 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: we are recording this, is that you have really gone 149 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: deep into the background on both of them. So the 150 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: first several episodes we've got a lot of context setting 151 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: about the Manson family to give all the detail of 152 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: sort of how Lynette from got to where she was. 153 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,599 Speaker 1: Same thing with the episodes that get into the background 154 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: involving things like the Symbonese Liberation Army and the SLA 155 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: kidnapping of Patty Hurst, kind of telling the story of 156 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: how Sarah Jane Moore got to where she was. How 157 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: did you decide how much background you wanted to include 158 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: on these two women and the other organizations and other 159 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: movements that they were connected to. 160 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 3: That's actually the stuff that I found most interesting when 161 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 3: I was doing the research. I sort of feel like 162 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 3: my sort of modus opera anddi is you know what 163 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 3: am I finding really interesting? And can I sort of 164 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: maximize that as I'm telling the story? And in fact, 165 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 3: the actual assassination attempts themselves are interesting, and especially Sarah 166 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 3: Jane moorees is sort of suspenseful, but that's just a 167 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 3: very small part of the story. The the real story 168 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 3: to me is how did they get to this point? 169 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: Right? 170 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 3: And then by going through the research, I sort of 171 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 3: developed this theory is probably too strong a word, but 172 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: sort of recognized sort of this pattern that was occurring 173 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 3: with them, and I wanted to kind of demonstrate how, 174 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: despite the fact that their lives were quite different in 175 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 3: a lot of ways, and especially the details they sort 176 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 3: of unfolded in a sort of generally similar way, and 177 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 3: that that might in some way have led them to 178 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 3: taking this sort of very strong, probably irrational action, which 179 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 3: is trying to kill the president. So as far as 180 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: Lynette from goes, you know, her story is really about 181 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 3: being with Charles Manson, and then when Charles Manson goes 182 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 3: to prison, she still remains sort of very devoted to him, 183 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 3: and so she tries to help help him while she's 184 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 3: outside and he's inside prison, and she's in this very 185 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 3: strange situation where she's famous. You know, people know who 186 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: she is, but that doesn't really help her in a way. 187 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 3: It actually hinders her, Like nobody's going to hire her 188 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 3: to work. She really lives on the fringes up until 189 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 3: the time that she takes a shot at Ford. 190 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: With Sara Jane Moore. 191 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: You know, the sort of the crux of her story 192 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: in my mind is this is a woman who's lived 193 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: this this fairly. You know, from a distance, looks very 194 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 3: conventional life of she She was married and divorced several times, 195 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 3: but you know, she was married to a couple of 196 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 3: military men, she was married to a Hollywood sound designer, 197 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 3: she was married to a doctor. 198 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 2: So this was kind of her life beforehand. 199 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 3: And then she goes through a series of events having 200 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 3: to do with Patty Hursts kidnapping. She becomes an underground 201 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 3: informant for the FBI in the radical scene in the 202 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: Bay Area in nineteen seventy four. In nineteen seventy five, 203 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: so she goes from this very well off, conventional lifestyle 204 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 3: to suddenly being in the midst of really the furthest 205 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 3: reaches of you know, violent radical groups. And so that 206 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 3: was why sort of diving into the Simbonese Liberation Army, 207 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 3: we probably haven't gotten to Tribal Thumb yet, no, or 208 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 3: some of these other smaller groups that she interacts with, 209 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 3: and her story is really one of feeling increasing pressure 210 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 3: on her, feeling increasingly in danger as the months go 211 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: on and. 212 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: She gets further and further sort of ensconced in this 213 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 2: app misphere. 214 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 3: So some of it's set up to sort of tell 215 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: these stories, but it's also I just found it really 216 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 3: interesting in and of itself, especially Bay Area middle seventies. 217 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 3: It's sort of the last vestiges of sixties radicalism, and 218 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 3: you have these very small groups with these very big 219 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 3: plans about overthrowing the government, but without really. 220 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 2: Much of a plan to do it. 221 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know how you overthrow the government 222 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 3: with twelve or fifteen you know people. So anyway, that 223 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 3: was kind of what I thought was really interesting and 224 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 3: might have some parallels to stuff that's going on now. 225 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you also talk a lot about like the 226 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: idea of Middle America and how Middle America was responding 227 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: to what was happening with all the radicals in the 228 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: Bay Area and the climate, like the political climate of 229 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: the day, which that's the year that I was born, 230 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: So I have no memory of it personally, but there 231 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: are definitely elements of it that I'm like, this feels 232 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: very comparable to things that happen now regarding sort of 233 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: what you think of as the mainstream reacting to what 234 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: the mainstream considers to be a fringe element, with some 235 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: of those fringe elements later becoming like more of a 236 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: mainstream thought. Like some of the things that were that 237 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: you talked about in terms of Squeaky From's activism were 238 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: about climate and what was happening to the planet. And 239 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: I think the perception of people who are looking at 240 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: the climate in nineteen seventy five versus today, Like there 241 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: are some parallels and some dissimilarities, and so I thought 242 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: those were all really interesting things. To talk about in 243 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: your show. 244 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 3: Also, Yeah, So it's funny because when Lynette from and 245 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 3: her sort of best friend, this woman Sandra Good, who 246 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 3: is also a Manson follower, moved to Sacramento, they catch 247 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: this sort of environmentalism bug. But the way, the way, 248 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 3: you know, two former Manson girls approach environmentalism is to 249 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 3: send threatening letters to CEOs of companies and government officials 250 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 3: who oversee the maintenance of you know, wilderness areas, particularly 251 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 3: in California. So so, yeah, so they become very concerned. 252 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: They're they're both sort of interacting with the local press. 253 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 3: Instead of giving them press releases, they send these threatening letters. 254 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 3: At the time, Lynette and Sandra are sort of dressing 255 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 3: in these weird outfits, which are sort of these long 256 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: gowns with these I don't know how to describe them 257 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: other than as sort of like deflated witches hats, where 258 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 3: they would be like tall coned hats, except there's nothing 259 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 3: holding the cone up, so it just kind of flops 260 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 3: over to the side. 261 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 2: And Lynette would wear red and Sandra. 262 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 3: Would wear blue, and they, you know, even in nineteen 263 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 3: seventy four, nineteen seventy five, they look very distinct They 264 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 3: don't look like anybody else, And at one point they 265 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 3: go to San Francisco and they go to Berkeley and 266 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 3: they go to the offices of CEOs and try and 267 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 3: get meetings with them dressed like this. I mean, it's 268 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 3: very it's very strange, and I think, you know, people 269 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 3: didn't know really what to make of it and whether 270 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 3: to take them seriously. After Lynette gets tries to shoot 271 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 3: forward and gets arrested, Sandra Good ends up being interviewed 272 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 3: quite a bit, and she's talking about how they're part 273 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 3: of this organization which is completely faittional, called the International 274 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 3: People's Court of Retribution, that was going to carry out, 275 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 3: you know, hundreds of assassinations around the world to save 276 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 3: the environment. So it's really it's pretty it's pretty strange, 277 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 3: crazy stuff. 278 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, listening to the like audio from interviews where she 279 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: is being asked one question and the answers are not 280 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: answers to that question. They are answers about the environment 281 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: and what's happening to the planet. And the whole time 282 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: I was I was like, this is this is wild, 283 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: Like it goes much farther than hearing somebody spin an 284 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: answer into the direction. It's just answering a totally different question. 285 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 3: It just very aggressively. Yeah, right, she's just very antagonistic. 286 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 3: In one of the episodes, we play sort of sort 287 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 3: of an extended bit of an interview that Sandra does 288 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 3: just a few days after the assassination attempts with the 289 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 3: Canadian Broadcasting Company with this very sort of nice professional 290 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: reporter and Sandra just, you know, she's just clearly so 291 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 3: angry and she just wants to sort of take a 292 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 3: bite out of this woman who's trying to get sort 293 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 3: of the information that you'd expect a reporter to get, 294 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 3: and Sandra just doesn't have any time for it. 295 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, So your podcast, rip Current is radically different from 296 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: Stuffy miss In history class, we have a show. It's 297 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: Holly and me most of the time. Sometimes we have 298 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: a guest, but like it's each of us. We're talking 299 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: into the microphone and we are usually telling a pretty 300 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: linear story that has a beginning, in a middle, an 301 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: end in most cases, and rip Current is very different. 302 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: You've got all of these interviews and clips of audio 303 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: or you know, the audio from video footage from the time, 304 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: and in some cases reenactments tell me more about the 305 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: process of what it takes to go through all of 306 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: that and put it together into an episode of a podcast. 307 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 3: That's an interesting question the way it worked. I guess 308 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 3: it's worked with all the sort of podcasts like this 309 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 3: I've done limited series. It's really I do a lot 310 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 3: of research before I even start working on scripts and 311 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 3: things like that, and so it's some of it's sort 312 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: of what you would consider I think, more traditional research. 313 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 3: I go through newspapers, you know, that were current at 314 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 3: the time, books that have been written about the subjects, 315 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 3: court documents, things like that, and then I try and 316 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 3: identify people who would have some insight or some firsthand knowledge. 317 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 3: So in the case of rip Current, especially about Lynette 318 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 3: from there's been a bunch of books written about her 319 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 3: and and and you know, Charles Manson that whole thing. So, 320 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 3: you know, identifying authors who I could talk to either 321 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 3: generally about what was happening in her life or sort 322 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 3: of about specific little bits. And so there's a there's 323 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 3: a there's a bunch of author interviews, and then as 324 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 3: far as sourcing sort of archival audio, you know, it's 325 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 3: it's just a lot of web searching. To be honest 326 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 3: with you, it's you know, it's finding what's what's available 327 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 3: out there. As I kind of went through the process, 328 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 3: I got a little bit better about finding where things 329 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: might be. You know, there are universities that have, you know, 330 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 3: collections of local news broadcasts at times. San Francisco State 331 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 3: University is a place that I got a lot of 332 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 3: stuff from some state history museums. Archive dot org, which, 333 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 3: as we're recording, has has been taken down. 334 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: Upset about a little bit. 335 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, we just talked about it in our behind 336 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: the scenes that I oh you did. Yeah, I think 337 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: it will. It will have come out before this episode 338 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: comes out because of that. Archive dot organ is a 339 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: major part of our research. 340 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 3: Also, Yeah, hopefully that comes back up. I think there's 341 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 3: a lot of podcasts who are sweating it out. 342 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 343 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 344 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 3: So you know, I've spent I spent a lot of 345 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: time listening to three hours of a pacifica radio broadcast 346 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 3: from nineteen seventy five to try and find little clips 347 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 3: that are contemporaneous about the events that I'm covering, or 348 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 3: about some of the people, or or sort of explaining 349 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 3: how things were thought of at the time that we're 350 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 3: talking about. So I guess that's kind of the process 351 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 3: and then I end up I do. I'm kind of 352 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 3: old school in the way. I mean, people aren't gonna 353 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 3: be able to see it, but I'm holding out. I 354 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 3: use these, uh, I use index cards, and I take 355 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 3: notes on index cards and then sort them into piles 356 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 3: about which notes go with which episode. And then it's 357 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: I take from transcripts of interviews, transcripts from audio notes 358 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 3: I've taken from written sources, and kind of sort of 359 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 3: placement in order that seems to make sense in a script, 360 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 3: and then write narrative to kind of tie everything together 361 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 3: and explain the things I want to explain and set 362 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: things up. So that's that's kind of the process. I've 363 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 3: never really tried to explain it before, actually, but I 364 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 3: think that's kind of what I go through. 365 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: Index cards sorted into piles was my way of structuring 366 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: writing for a long time before before like word processing 367 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: software really got to the point that you could just 368 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: move things around with the mouse, which has become how 369 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: I do that kind of a thing now. So, yeah, 370 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: that's a blast of nostalgia. 371 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 3: Yes, I've got colored note cards too. Yeah, there's green 372 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 3: for one thing, pink for another, orange for another. Na 373 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 3: it's definitely sort of seventh grade stuff. 374 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: So like, how many people does it take to then 375 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: craft that into an episode of the podcast? Because I 376 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: know there are three producers from iHeart that are credited 377 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: on the podcast, but I don't have a sense of 378 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: like what each of them do on the show. 379 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: Sure, So so I read all the scripts, I record 380 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 3: voiceover and send it to them, and then there's an 381 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 3: executive producer and then three other producers, and so there's 382 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 3: a couple of rounds of putting things together. That's what 383 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 3: they call the dry pass or the dry cut, which 384 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 3: is without any sort of sound design behind it. It's 385 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 3: just each piece of spoken or archival audio, you know, 386 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 3: place in the right places, and you kind of listen 387 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 3: and you say, you know, separate these a little bit. 388 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 3: This looked great on paper, doesn't sound so good when 389 00:23:58,760 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 3: you're listening. 390 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: To it on tape. 391 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 3: And then the second past is where they take the 392 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 3: musical score or if you're going to add sort of 393 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 3: you know, sound effects, which we don't really do very much, 394 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 3: and you add that in to sort of create the 395 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 3: tone and feel of the program. 396 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 2: You know, add you know. 397 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 3: Suspenseful music where it should be, propulsive music where it 398 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 3: should be things like that, and that's each of the 399 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 3: three producers would kind of take there's gonna be twelve 400 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 3: episodes and then seven, I guess bonus episodes. So they 401 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: get split up among the producers and they take a 402 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 3: certain amount, so they're so responsible for both mixes, and 403 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 3: then they pass it on to an executive producer who 404 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 3: does sort of the final mix and quality assurance and 405 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 3: all that. 406 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: One of the things that you encountered while working on 407 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: this was a news organization that did not allow footage 408 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: of the reporters to be reused. Can you tell me 409 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: a little bit about that and how you wound up 410 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: recording instead re enactments of that. 411 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 3: One of the television stations in Sacramento, which is owned 412 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 3: by a huge news organization. 413 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: They you know, you can find on. 414 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 3: YouTube if you just search on Squeaky from Ford Assassination, 415 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 3: news coverage or whatever, you can find it all on YouTube. 416 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 3: But they don't they don't license if any of their 417 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: actual reporters are talking. And they had this really really 418 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 3: interesting piece of a reporter who goes to when Lynette 419 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 3: from and Sandra Good moved to Sacramento and it becomes known, 420 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 3: she's like, well, I'll just go and see what they're 421 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 3: up to. So she goes to their house and sort 422 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 3: of interviews them and stuff. You don't see that, but 423 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 3: after the after the assassination attempt, she's on the set 424 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 3: of the newscast and she just kind of talked about 425 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 3: her experience going in there and what they were like, 426 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 3: and what their apartment was like and stuff like that, 427 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 3: but in a very sort of conversational, not very newsy way. 428 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 3: And you know, when we were putting together an early 429 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 3: version of the episode, we cut the stuff we wanted 430 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 3: in there to see how it sounded. Sounded sounded great, 431 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 3: but you know, through multiple email exchanges, yeah, the you know, 432 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 3: the parent company was just not going to budge. So 433 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 3: it kind of it came down to we were trying 434 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 3: to figure out is this something that we can just 435 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 3: let let go? But we thought it was. It really 436 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 3: gave the best picture of what Lynnette's life was like 437 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 3: at the time, right before she made the assassination attempt. 438 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 3: So then it was do we want me just sort 439 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 3: of summarizing what she said as as sort of the 440 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 3: omniscient narrator, or do we want to. 441 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: Bring in an actor just sort of you. 442 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 3: Know, basically read from the transcript, you know, but in 443 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 3: a way that it's a little more immersive than my 444 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 3: like struggling not to do a monotone. 445 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: And so that's what we ended up doing. 446 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 3: And it kind of felt like as long as we're 447 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 3: upfront about the fact that this isn't actually that piece 448 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 3: of footage, but that we have an actor reading from 449 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 3: the transcript, and that we're doing it for this reason, 450 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 3: which is we can't get the rights, but we still 451 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 3: feel like it's important. 452 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that was just that was sort of the 453 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 2: process there. It was. It's frustrating. 454 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 3: It's always kind of interesting what rights you can get 455 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 3: and what rights you can't, because it's not always intuitive. 456 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: I wonder if that had anything to do with like 457 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: likeness rights for the reporter, and whether it just wasn't 458 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: something somebody foresaw in that reporter's contract in nineteen seventy 459 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: five that one day there might be a podcast want 460 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: to use the audio for something. That's the explanation I 461 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: can think of. Anyway, let's take one more quick break 462 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,239 Speaker 1: and then we'll be back to talk a little bit 463 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: more about the show. So earlier today I was listening 464 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: to the seventh episode of the podcast, and there was 465 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: an incident in which Sarah Jane Moore what did not 466 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: have ID with her, but did have several pictures of herself. 467 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: And it's obvious from the you know, the context the 468 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: description of that that at the time that was weird 469 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: to not have your ID and also to have several 470 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: pictures of yourself just on you. And what really hit 471 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: me in that moment was that today a lot of 472 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: us are walking around with a phone full of selfies. 473 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,959 Speaker 1: It's very normal to just have a bunch of pictures 474 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: of yourself on you at all times. Are there things 475 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: that similarly really stuck out to you in terms of 476 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: differences in day to day living between what was happening 477 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: in this period that you are, you know, reporting on 478 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: on this podcast. 479 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 2: And now that's interesting. 480 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: I guess what kind of struck me is how much 481 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 3: more connected we are, or potentially connected we are with 482 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 3: everybody all the time that we want to talk to 483 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 3: now that everybody's walking around with cell phones because a 484 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: fair amount of you know, what's going on in San 485 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 3: Francisco at the time. Sometimes a communication is done like 486 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 3: literally through the letters page of a newspaper. Right there's 487 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 3: no way to get a message to somebody physically. When 488 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 3: everybody's underground and people are suspicious of each other and 489 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 3: they think there may be FBI plants and stuff, it's 490 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 3: only communication becomes very, very difficult. So that was one thing. 491 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 3: It's a really interesting question, you know. I just kind 492 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 3: of feel like now, like somebody like Lynette from. 493 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 2: Would be. 494 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 3: In the news on cable TV all the time if 495 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 3: she had been involved in something. I mean, she wasn't 496 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 3: amongst the people who committed the Charles Manson associated murders, 497 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 3: but she's a very well known, high profile member of 498 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 3: his group. 499 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 2: And the idea that. 500 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 3: You know, she basically goes off the grid, like people 501 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 3: don't really know much about what's going on with her, 502 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 3: and she's kind of involved in these sort of sketchy dealings, 503 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 3: and every once in a while she'll kind of pop 504 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 3: up in the newspaper for something that she's she's involved in, 505 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 3: but for the most part, she just kind of lives 506 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 3: her life and there's no there's One of the controversies 507 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 3: that comes out of her assassination attempt is that there 508 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 3: wasn't any real security that she wasn't considered a security risk, right, 509 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 3: so she wasn't put under surveillance people didn't really know 510 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 3: where she was. I mean, she wasn't trying to hide, 511 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 3: like she showed up dressed in her red gown and 512 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: funny red hat, and I mean she stuck out. Like 513 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 3: if you look in the crowd in some of these pictures, 514 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 3: it's like, oh, who's that And it's still that from 515 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 3: and she's the one who's gonna pull the trigger. But 516 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 3: the just you know, the heightened security awareness just kind 517 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: of wasn't there. You know, there's that, and then there's 518 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 3: just the general sense at that time in California of 519 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 3: the potential for violence. I don't think we've gotten to 520 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 3: it yet in what's been released so far, but San 521 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 3: Francisco was a very, very sort of violent city at 522 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 3: that period of time, both because of radical groups, but 523 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 3: just i you know, not coincidentally necessarily, but unconnected is 524 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 3: when the Zodiac murders were going on, thing called the 525 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 3: Zebra murders, which were these apparently random didn't turn out 526 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 3: to be random murders that were being committed on the street. 527 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 3: There was a lot of sort of anti police sentiment 528 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 3: going around, and then Patty Hurst was missing, and that 529 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 3: is sort of the thing that hangs over everything to 530 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 3: do with Sarah Jane Moore and sort of the radical 531 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 3: scene in the Bay Area is that this you know, 532 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 3: this Hurst heiress is missing and it's sort of the 533 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 3: biggest story in the country is like can we find her? 534 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 3: And all these groups that Sarah Jane Moore is associating 535 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 3: with are, at least in the eyes of sort of 536 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 3: the establishments or of law enforcement and journalism and it's such, 537 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 3: are connected to the Simbonese Liberation Army, which is the 538 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 3: group that has Patty Hurst. So they're under surveillance, the 539 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 3: police raid places associated with journalists, get in touch with 540 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 3: members of these groups, against touch with Sarah Jane Moore 541 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 3: to see if she can provide information on where Patty 542 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 3: Hurst is. So I guess I guess those were the 543 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 3: things that kind of kind of stood out to me. 544 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 3: But again, I'm you know, I'm looking at this fairly 545 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: narrow slice of sort of people living in sort of 546 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 3: one extreme situation compared to to most of what was 547 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 3: going on in America. 548 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: So beyond that sort of then versus now things that 549 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: are different. What really surprised you as you were researching 550 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: and working on this show? 551 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 3: So what I kind of came around to really focusing 552 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 3: on was this idea that if you live sort of 553 00:33:53,600 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 3: a conventional life and then under duress, are soddenly given 554 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 3: this whole new way of looking at things. In a 555 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 3: situation where you're probably in danger, it happens very very fast. 556 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 3: You don't really have sort of outside moderating influences around you, 557 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 3: and what happens to somebody. And so that's what happened 558 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 3: with Lynette from I mean, she essentially got kicked out 559 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 3: of her house and left and very quickly ran into 560 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 3: Charles Manson and jumped in his van and was part 561 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 3: of his group. Sarah Jane Moore like volunteered for this 562 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 3: thing that was associated with trying to get Patty Hurst released, 563 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 3: met up with these sort of Marxist prison radicals or 564 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 3: former prison radicals. The FBI told her to go underground, 565 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 3: so she became radicalized while she was in these groups, 566 00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 3: Like she considered herself sort of a revolutionary. After amount 567 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 3: of time, she felt like her eyes had been open 568 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 3: to the plight of black people at that time that 569 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 3: she hadn't really taken in and she was given sort 570 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 3: of a framework with which to look at it. Both 571 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 3: as it was and what could be done about it. 572 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 3: She became she considered herself a Marxist or a Maoist, 573 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 3: and then Patty Hurst herself. I mean, she was put 574 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 3: in a closet for six weeks and sort of pilloried 575 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 3: with the beliefs of the Siminese Liberation Army, which were 576 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 3: sort of a combination of sort of typical revolutionary Maoist 577 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 3: ideas and then this other really bizarre sort of conspiracy stuff. 578 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 3: But when she was finally given some freedom, she whether 579 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 3: it was a conscious decision or whether it was sort 580 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 3: of course of control, joined her captors right and she 581 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 3: went in. She helped rob a bank. There's famous picture 582 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 3: of her holding a a gun. So that was that 583 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 3: was what I found really interesting was sort of that 584 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 3: dynamic and how these people changed. They start off as 585 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 3: one thing, went through this process of just rapid, sort 586 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 3: of under pressure change, and came out as people who 587 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 3: were willing to do things that you never would have 588 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 3: imagined them being involved in prior to that change. 589 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: There is so much in the you know, the episodes 590 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: that I've listened to so far, so much little details 591 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 1: that I really did not know that nineteen seventy five 592 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: is a little more recent than what we normally talk 593 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: about on our podcast. So it's because it's also a 594 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 1: period where my life started was not a period when, 595 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: like my school classes did not talk about the history 596 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy five and later really at all until 597 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: I got to college, and even then it was just 598 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: the sketchiest little amount, So I did not know much 599 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: detail about a lot of what was happening that you 600 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: talk about in the podcast. So it's been all very 601 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: interesting to listen to you. I am hoping to keep 602 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: on top of it. I tend to get very behind 603 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: in my podcast listening very quickly, so as the subsequent 604 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: episodes come out, there will be more of them out 605 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: by the time this interview comes out for our listeners 606 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: than there are right now, so I am looking forward 607 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,479 Speaker 1: to listening to them. Is there anything that you think 608 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: our listeners should absolutely know, either about this podcast or 609 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: about your work in general, Like, what is there any 610 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: particular thing that just folks you want them to be 611 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,479 Speaker 1: aware of or have in mind? 612 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 3: It's another good question that I probably should have some 613 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 3: thought too before we started this, because I ask it 614 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 3: of people myself. It's not an original thought, but I 615 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 3: think being able to look at sort of analogous or 616 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 3: somewhat analogous times in history. And for me, it's not 617 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 3: even necessarily what people do, but kind of the way 618 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 3: they conceive of the situation that they're in and what 619 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 3: sort of the possibilities are and what's realistic and what's 620 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,399 Speaker 3: not realistic. I mean, I think one of the things 621 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 3: I found interesting, and I think this is true of 622 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 3: the late sixties or maybe even all the sixties as well, 623 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 3: is this idea that you can take a look at 624 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 3: at at our society and think about making major major changes, right. 625 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 3: And I think that's you know, that's it probably started 626 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 3: with the civil rights movement and then people said, well, 627 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 3: what else is out there that can make our country, 628 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 3: you know, fundamentally fairer or more in line with what 629 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 3: I believe. 630 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 2: And the thoughts were big. 631 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 3: The thoughts weren't, you know, we let's mess with the 632 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 3: tax code a little bit. It's you know, or do 633 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 3: things like that. It was really like, can we remake 634 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 3: our country in a way that sort of is more 635 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 3: aligned with what we feel it should be like. And 636 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 3: by the time we kind of jump into it in 637 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four nineteen seventy five, in sort of the 638 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 3: radical scene. I mean, it's really kind of tailing off, 639 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 3: so the people who are left, it's really sort of 640 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 3: the most radical people and there's just not many people 641 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 3: out there. But I do spend some time talking about 642 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 3: you know, prison revolutionaries in California, which I think is 643 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 3: you know, the more I learned about that, I was like, oh, 644 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 3: I could have just done a podcast on this, because 645 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 3: there was a sense that, especially for you know, black 646 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 3: men and Latinos and Native Americans as well, that prison 647 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 3: is sort of an extreme example of what society is 648 00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 3: actually like, and so that you know, you you become 649 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 3: radicalized and become a revolutionary in prison. And the idea 650 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 3: is that is when you're released, you can bring the 651 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 3: fight against the same sort of inequalities and oppressive systems 652 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 3: that are very clear in prison, where you have warden 653 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 3: and you have guards, and you have you know, things 654 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 3: that you can and can't do, and then you go 655 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 3: out into the world outside prison and you see the 656 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 3: same structures and you know you want to address them. 657 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 2: And that was how. 658 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 3: Groups like the Siminese Liberation Army or or Tribal Thumb, 659 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 3: which there'll be stuff on them a little bit later 660 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 3: in the season, they're they're really they're run by by 661 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 3: guys who are prison revolutionaries, black men who come out 662 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,839 Speaker 3: and get largely young white, sort of college age radicals 663 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 3: to kind of fall along with them, and they sort 664 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 3: of take in this this way of looking at our society, right, 665 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 3: is that it's it sort of the prison system and 666 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 3: who has possibilities and things like that. 667 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 2: So it's like a lot of words that I just said, 668 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 2: we're just saying that. 669 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 3: I just and I'm certainly not advocating for anything that 670 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 3: any of these people did in the podcast, because you know, 671 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 3: assassinating the president. 672 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 2: I mean, these are violent groups that they sort of 673 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 2: no hope. 674 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 3: But I think the idea of, you know, looking at 675 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,240 Speaker 3: society in a way of can we make big changes 676 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,839 Speaker 3: to make things better for people? I guess that might 677 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 3: have been actually the sort of the what makes me 678 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 3: interested in that era is that it just seemed like 679 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 3: there was just a lot more sort of big thinking 680 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 3: about those things. And sometimes the big thinking ended up 681 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 3: in the civil rights movement with its like absolutely positive outcomes, 682 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 3: and then sometimes it's the weathermen or something who just 683 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 3: sort of had this neilistic view about how you go 684 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 3: about affecting that change. 685 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: So do you already know what your next project is 686 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: after this one or are you just trying to get 687 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: this one out for everyone to hear. 688 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 3: So, Yeah, so it's funny that you mentioned that I 689 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 3: was actually just working on a proposal for the next project, 690 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 3: and it's in it's sort of a similar vein of 691 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 3: taking a look at another movement that was trying to 692 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 3: make significant change, sort of against the tide of sort 693 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 3: of public sentiment, which, in hindsight, in this particular case 694 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 3: i'm looking at right now, I think it's kind of 695 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 3: been born out that people should have listened, right. But yeah, 696 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 3: so I'm sort of keeping with this sort of radical 697 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,320 Speaker 3: thought and action and trying to create a big difference, 698 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,839 Speaker 3: even in a way in this way it's I think 699 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 3: a little bit less misguided, but the same sort of 700 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,920 Speaker 3: think big I guess is how to summarize it. 701 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, thank you so much for taking the time 702 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: to talk to me today. 703 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. 704 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: Most of the episodes of this season of Rip Current 705 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: will be out by the time this episode airs, so 706 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: listeners you can go find all of this to listen 707 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: to in the iHeartRadio app or wherever else you like. 708 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: To get your podcast, and you'll still have I think 709 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: two or three more episodes to look forward to that 710 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: will be coming out after this one airs, but plenty 711 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 1: to catch up on if you have not already. Thanks 712 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: so much to Toby for talking to me. Rip Current 713 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: is also co hosted by Mary Catherine Garrison, who played 714 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: Squeaky from in the original Broadway production of Stephen Sondheim's Assassins. 715 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: New episodes of rip Current come out on Thursdays on 716 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app and anywhere else you like to get 717 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: your podcasts. The whole entire limited series will be available 718 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: just within a couple of weeks from when this episode 719 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: is coming out. Now, do you have some listeners? I 720 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,320 Speaker 1: do have some listener mail. This is from a net 721 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 1: and a net wrote to us with an update about 722 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: William marsh Rice, who if you do not remember, we 723 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: did an episode about the death of William marsh Rice 724 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, and we talked about a 725 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 1: statue of him that was on the campus at Rice University, 726 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: which is named for him. So Annett wrote, Hello, Holly 727 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: and Tracy. A couple of years ago, I wrote to 728 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: tell you that Rice University Task Force on slavery, segregation, 729 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: and racial injustice had been charged with, among many other things, 730 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: deciding what to do with the statue of founder William 731 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: Marsh Rice that was located central to the main campus quadrangle. 732 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: They announced in February twenty twenty two that the statue 733 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: would be moved to the perimeter of the quadrangle as 734 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: part of a design overhaul. In September twenty twenty four, 735 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: the academic Quadrangle was reopened after about sixteen months of construction. 736 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: The statue was now in a corner of the quadrangle, 737 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,799 Speaker 1: near the first building on campus, love It Hall and 738 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,760 Speaker 1: the Welcome Center, and the newest building on the quad 739 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: Sewell Hall. As the landscape architect said and their rededication ceremony, 740 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: William Marsh Rice is essential to the Rice story, but 741 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: not central to it. Rice's remains were reinterred in the 742 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: Rice family plot at Glenwood Cemetery, a historic Houston cemetery. 743 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: The statue was now at ground level rather than elevated 744 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: on a high plinth. There's a sign with a QR 745 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: code that links to information about Rice, including his connections 746 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: to slavery. Unfortunately, it feels a bit labyrinthin even using 747 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: the QR code to get to the document that acknowledges 748 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: Rice as an enslaver. The platform on which the plinth 749 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,280 Speaker 1: statue was on has been incorporated into the quad redesign 750 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: as sort of a speaker's corner near the center of 751 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: the quadrangle by the platform is a quote from when 752 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy gave his We chose to go to 753 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,880 Speaker 1: the Moon's speech on the Rice campus in nineteen sixty two. 754 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: We meet at a college noted for knowledge, in a 755 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,240 Speaker 1: city noted for progress, in a state noted for strength, 756 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: and we stand in need of all three sea attached photos. 757 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: There are also some links about the redesign of the quad, 758 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: and Nett talks about being an alumnus of Rice and 759 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 1: one of the many things about this whole thing, meaning 760 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: that there will now be green space around the quad 761 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: so that it will not be a heat island as 762 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: it has been previously. A net for pet tax Attached 763 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: photos of Swirl, our border collie mix who crossed the 764 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: Rainbow Bridge sometime ago, and a pet portrait that was 765 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 1: commissioned for them, which is very sweet. So yes, I've 766 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,319 Speaker 1: got some pictures here that I'm looking at that sort 767 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 1: of show where the new location of the statue is, 768 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,719 Speaker 1: as well as the plinth that it used to stand on, 769 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 1: and all what a sweet puppy dog and I love 770 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,879 Speaker 1: this pet portrait. It was commissioned from a photo. There's 771 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: also a paw print impression, so sweet. Thank you so 772 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:08,239 Speaker 1: much ANT for this and for forwarding along to your 773 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: earlier email as part of it. I had not really 774 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: kept up with any of the developments in that since 775 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,640 Speaker 1: we had done that episode a while back, so thank 776 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,400 Speaker 1: you so much for that. If you would like to 777 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 1: send us a note about this or any other podcasts 778 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: where History podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. You can subscribe 779 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,120 Speaker 1: to the show on the iHeartRadio app and wherever else 780 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 1: you like to get your podcasts. Stuff You Missed in 781 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 782 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 783 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.