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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Book Club Club, book Club, book Club club Club. It's

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Speaker 2: the Cool Zone Media book Club. Hello, Welcome to cools

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Speaker 2: On Media book Club, the only book club where you

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Speaker 2: don't have to do the reading because I do it

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Speaker 2: for you. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and my guest

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Speaker 2: today to talk about tech security as relates to this

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Speaker 2: piece of speculative fiction is Greg Hi.

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Speaker 3: Greg, Hi, Nice to see you again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, nice to see you. I think we called you

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Speaker 2: an anarchist technology enthusiast.

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Speaker 3: I believe I'm still enthusiastic. I think that's great.

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Speaker 2: I'm a like, I'm of two minds all the time

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Speaker 2: about technology. I'm both very interested in it. It's like

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Speaker 2: one of my hobbies since I was very young. And

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Speaker 2: I also think it's bad and we should just distort

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Speaker 2: throw or laptops in the ocean. That's I go back

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Speaker 2: and forth about these several times a day. It's very

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Speaker 2: expensive to go back and forth about it. Spent a

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Speaker 2: lot of money on laptops, and the ocean probably doesn't

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Speaker 2: appreciate it much. No, it really doesn't. But you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like so big anything you put in there, it's

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Speaker 2: just it's fine.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Car batteries in the ocean. That's what I hear.

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Speaker 2: What does that actually do.

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Speaker 3: Putting a car battery in the ocean, Well, I imagine

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Speaker 3: it leaks.

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Speaker 2: Is it like electrify the ocean? Is there like like

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Speaker 2: a mass of water at which it can no longer electrify?

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Speaker 3: I think that electric eels probably take care of that

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Speaker 3: enough for us. I think a single car battery is

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Speaker 3: not gonna do much. I mean, you're the one who

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Speaker 3: told me that you could just touch car batteries and

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah you can. Oh that's right. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I like twelve olt DC electricity or even twenty four

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Speaker 2: volt DC electricity in general, that's the stuff I like.

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Speaker 3: I mean, DC is the is the one that Tesla of,

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Speaker 3: right and Ace was the bad guy? Right? Or did

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Speaker 3: I make that up so much?

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Speaker 2: I think Edison and Tesla had a pissing match. And

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Speaker 2: I'm going to lose all of my long lost seapunk

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Speaker 2: cred that I don't remember which one was.

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Speaker 3: With jikes, Well, I know that Edison electricut in an

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Speaker 3: elephant and he's a nasshole.

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Speaker 2: So he also filmed when sho Gosh got executed. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: so we are reading from a piece called Escape put

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Speaker 2: out by Crime Think, just a anarchist publishing collective, and

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Speaker 2: it's a piece of speculative fiction by an anonymous author.

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Speaker 2: We started with part one last week. You should really

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Speaker 2: go back and listen to it. And it is based

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Speaker 2: on the idea that all of anarchists and presumably a

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Speaker 2: lot of other sort of political and desirables are suddenly

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Speaker 2: rated and declared illegal within the United States, a reasonably

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Speaker 2: near future sort of a could happen tonight kind of timeline.

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Speaker 2: And I brought Greg on because this piece talks a

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Speaker 2: lot about a lot of different technological solutions to various problems,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to talk through how realistic those different

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Speaker 2: solutions are if there's other solutions, but not to necessarily.

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Speaker 2: I like this piece because I like that people are

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Speaker 2: writing pieces like this, and I think that this is

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Speaker 2: a kind of conversation that we need to be having

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Speaker 2: more and more. I'm actually sort of hoping I get

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Speaker 2: to run more book clubs talking about kind of similar

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Speaker 2: things in the near future, or I'm hoping that everything

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Speaker 2: bad goes away and I'm just writing about the bad

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Speaker 2: old world anyway where we last left our heroes. There's

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Speaker 2: three different groups of people, and they've all gone on

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Speaker 2: the run, and they're all kind of going, now what

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Speaker 2: now that they've all just barely escaped. So this section chapter,

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Speaker 2: as it might be called, is called communications. Jake doesn't

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Speaker 2: have to trust the new app everyone's using while signals down.

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Speaker 2: Long ago, everyone in his Affinity group created GPG key pairs,

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Speaker 2: then verified each other's keys and signed them. They also

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Speaker 2: created private back up email accounts on other platforms, only

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Speaker 2: to be used in emergencies. Jake's rise up account may

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Speaker 2: be down, but his GPG keys or in the encrypted

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Speaker 2: folder on his cached USB, along with a list of

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Speaker 2: back up email accounts of his comrades. He goes through

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Speaker 2: each one, encrypting a message to that person's public key

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Speaker 2: and sending it to their back up email. After a

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Speaker 2: couple hours at the cafe, one of them sends a

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Speaker 2: message back to him. Ethan is still free. Jake asks

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Speaker 2: to know if he knows anything about Big C's supposed posts.

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Speaker 2: Ethan says he'll check with someone in Bigc's crew. He's

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Speaker 2: also in contact with. Ash. Ash emails back with a

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Speaker 2: public key for Big C. She signs his key with

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Speaker 2: her own. Ethan checks it and sees that it matches

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Speaker 2: the public key for Ash that he's signed. Then he

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Speaker 2: signs big C's key and sends it to Jake. Jake

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Speaker 2: messages Big C on the new app everyone is using.

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna interject here. See how that's confusing Anyway,

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Speaker 2: it's hard to follow, Okay, anyway, back to it. On

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Speaker 2: the other hand, I end up writing meetings, so I

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Speaker 2: can't really talk shit. Writing meetings into fiction is very complicated.

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Speaker 2: Writing GPG into fiction is very complicated. Okay, now, Actually,

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Speaker 2: back to it. Ash emails back with a public key

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Speaker 2: for Big C. She signs his key with her own

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Speaker 2: Ethan checks it and sees that it matches the public

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Speaker 2: key for Ash that he's signed. Then he signs big

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Speaker 2: C's key and sends it to Jake. Jake messages Big

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Speaker 2: C on the new app everyone is using. Instead of

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Speaker 2: sending anything in clear text, he encrypts a message to

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Speaker 2: the key he has for Big C. He adds his

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Speaker 2: own public key on that same app. In the general

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Speaker 2: channel they're all using, someone's screaming that another account is

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Speaker 2: a honeypot. People stop posting if they move to a

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Speaker 2: different channel or a different app. They never send Jake

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Speaker 2: anything about it, but that doesn't matter because Big C

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Speaker 2: responds his message likewise encrypted using GPG and then pasted

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Speaker 2: within this new app. Jake decrypts and checks that it

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Speaker 2: was signed by the same key for Big C that

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Speaker 2: his friend Ethan certify. There's a time and location back

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Speaker 2: room of a donut shop a couple punks work app

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Speaker 2: eleven PM. Jake spends most of the day at the cafe,

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Speaker 2: trying not to attract attention, and he scarfs down some

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Speaker 2: fast food and gets a bus across town to the

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Speaker 2: doughnut shop. He gets off a couple stops early and

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Speaker 2: circles around it on backstreets, looking for any car or

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Speaker 2: person that could be staking things out. He decides to

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Speaker 2: wait a little longer in an alley, but the alley

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Speaker 2: isn't empty. Ethan's there, smoking a cigarette and also scoping

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Speaker 2: things out. They hug, You're the first person I've seen

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Speaker 2: in like two days. Man. Ethan's heard a rumor about

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Speaker 2: some kind of legal defense committee being set up, but

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Speaker 2: he can't stand one of the people he thinks is

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Speaker 2: in it. Jake quietly regales him with the saga of

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Speaker 2: his nearly new escape. They look at the doughnut shop

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Speaker 2: down the street. If it's a trap, maybe only one

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Speaker 2: of us should go. I'll go. If it's chill, I'll

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Speaker 2: come back out and get you. Maybe they raid us

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Speaker 2: only once we're all inside. Do you want to wait

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Speaker 2: out here all night? Fuck man? I don't know. Jake

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Speaker 2: goes in a punk he doesn't know ushers him through

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Speaker 2: the employee's side door. It's just three big c usually

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Speaker 2: known as Cookie, the unknown punk, and Ash. Ash is

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Speaker 2: chowing down on donuts. Nervously. Cookie gets up and extends

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Speaker 2: out a hand, then turns it into an awkward hug.

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Speaker 2: They don't really know each other like that, but Jake accepts,

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Speaker 2: surprisingly eager for physical touch. Are we waiting for anybody else?

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Speaker 2: Who'd you share this with? I don't fucking know. I

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Speaker 2: told Ash and Sydney, and Sidney said she just told

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Speaker 2: her band, But like, I don't trust them to Hey,

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Speaker 2: Mitch's cool. Yeah, sure, Mitch is cool. I'm just saying

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Speaker 2: I don't trust them not to tell someone random, you know, Jesus,

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Speaker 2: says the punk Jake doesn't know, looking out the cracked

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Speaker 2: open employee door. What it's Zoe. She's down the street,

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Speaker 2: but she's coming this way some shared glances. No one

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Speaker 2: wants to let Zoe in, Well let her in. Half

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Speaker 2: an hour later, the tiny donuts store back room is

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Speaker 2: swampy with seven nervous anarchists Ethan and Clue. What are

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Speaker 2: we fucking doing? Sid's running and hiding. I say we

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Speaker 2: make distractions, make them feel like they got the wrong folks.

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Speaker 2: They're not the threat, so what they've already grabbed everyone.

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Speaker 2: It's not like they're going to let them go to

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Speaker 2: get us. Instead, they'll just keep them detained and then

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Speaker 2: use all their resources on the few of us. No

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Speaker 2: last thing we need to do right now is remind

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Speaker 2: them they didn't get all of us to what fucking end.

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Speaker 2: Solidarity means attack. Look, if you think of some way

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Speaker 2: to bust people out, I'm all for it, But like

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Speaker 2: right now, we can't even keep ourselves safe. We bust

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Speaker 2: people out, we have no way to house them. They're

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Speaker 2: just rating random, totally apolitical squats. They just cleared the

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Speaker 2: last house lesson campment at the airport. Look, you can

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Speaker 2: run and hide if you want, honestly, honestly I mean that.

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Speaker 2: I don't judge, but I know if I was captured

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Speaker 2: right now, the number one thing I'd want to see

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Speaker 2: in this world would be cop cars on fire in

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Speaker 2: the county jail parking Lite. The meeting ends a couple

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Speaker 2: hours later. They have sorted into two groups and a

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Speaker 2: lone individual. One group will focus on risky active strikes.

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Speaker 2: The other group will try to build an underground capable

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Speaker 2: of keeping people safe. Ash is going to run a

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Speaker 2: clearing house email account to take submissions and push out

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Speaker 2: notifications only people within the signed network of gpgkeys. If

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Speaker 2: they shut down her email, she'll just pivot to a

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Speaker 2: different one using the same keys and sending to the

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Speaker 2: same recipients. They can't shut down email wholesale, too much

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Speaker 2: of capitalism runs on it. She'll try to maintain a

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Speaker 2: public counter info site for certain announcements marked to be public,

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Speaker 2: but no promises. Two of the punks present are going

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Speaker 2: to be showed how to use GPG. Jake and Ethan

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Speaker 2: head out into the night. Ethan's got a van they

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Speaker 2: can sleep in. Kat said that Vera could stay as

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Speaker 2: long as she needed, but they've never actually lived together before,

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Speaker 2: and as the weeks go by, little frictions keep coming up.

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Speaker 2: Vera forgot she sided with the bandmate of Cat's old

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Speaker 2: boyfriend that one time, but Cat hasn't. Cat doesn't approve

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Speaker 2: of the lengthy showers Vera takes. Vera had no idea

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Speaker 2: that Cat was such a morning person. Normally these would

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Speaker 2: be nothing, but the isolation in background stress is taking

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Speaker 2: a toll. Vera feels like it's hard to keep her

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Speaker 2: head together, hard to be her. Without the reference points

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Speaker 2: of her normal life, she feels unmoored and frazzled, always

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Speaker 2: a step behind saying things she would have thought through more.

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Speaker 2: Cat doesn't have a Netflix account, and Vera has nothing

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Speaker 2: to do all day but pace around Cat's basement and

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Speaker 2: read Cat's books. Cat doesn't use the internet much, and

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Speaker 2: Vera's trying not to suddenly flood Cat's router with a

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Speaker 2: ton of activity. Every morning around the time Cat said

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Speaker 2: she sometimes checks her work email, Vera takes the new

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Speaker 2: laptop Cat bought for her and connects to the internet.

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Speaker 2: In so far as the raids are getting attention, it

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Speaker 2: seems to be mostly because some prominent journalists got detained too.

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Speaker 2: It joins the background shrieking about journalists' rights being under attack,

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Speaker 2: but the news outlets mostly just want to use that

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Speaker 2: narrative to bolster their subscriptions. With social media effectively gone,

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Speaker 2: there's little coverage of the massed attentions of anarchists, save

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Speaker 2: some conservatives chortling that it was about time and see

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Speaker 2: the old establishment was deliberately choosing not to fight terrorism

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Speaker 2: the whole time. She's careful to build a profile of

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Speaker 2: Internet activity that doesn't match her prior use. She chooses

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Speaker 2: different websites for news, even to check weather reports. She

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Speaker 2: doesn't want to deviate too far from Kat's previous activity.

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Speaker 2: If Kat used bing for searching about mushroom harvests, so

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Speaker 2: will she. If Kat didn't use an ad blocker, she

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Speaker 2: won't add one. The goal is to slowly build up

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Speaker 2: Cat's Internet usage so she can use it more frequently.

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Speaker 2: While stuck at home, She holds herself back from checking

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Speaker 2: radical websites. In the last three weeks, Vera has almost

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Speaker 2: never left Cat's house. One afternoon, there was an unusual

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Speaker 2: car parked all day within view of the front door.

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Speaker 2: Even Kat was convinced it was sketchy. Cat's home cooking

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Speaker 2: is very cumin and vegetables oriented, but she picks up

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Speaker 2: the Thai food Vera loves a couple times with cash,

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Speaker 2: not card Vera is hesitant about booting Tails off the

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Speaker 2: USB she had on hand and connecting on the home

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Speaker 2: network because she's worried that will draw attention. Instead, she

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Speaker 2: gets Kat to go to a nearby cafe during the

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Speaker 2: day and write down the Wi Fi password. Then in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the night, she goes out with Cat's

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Speaker 2: crusty old laptop, sits behind the cafe's dumpster, boots Tails

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Speaker 2: and connects to the open inner. A lot of anarchist's

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Speaker 2: websites are gone, and the foreign ones are thin on

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Speaker 2: substantive reportbacks, meaningful news, or how two guides are overshadowed

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Speaker 2: by essays that triumphantly advocate one or another grotesque alliance

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Speaker 2: and declare the time of principles to be over. This provokes,

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Speaker 2: in turn, angry evocative screeds that fetishize death to survive

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Speaker 2: as a betrayal of our fallen says one. It's our

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Speaker 2: duty to die beautifully together. Someone else is aggressively promoting

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Speaker 2: a Patreon in her back up email account. There's an

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Speaker 2: encrypted message to her, signed by her old comrade, Matthew.

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Speaker 2: He survived the raids that got every other anarchist in

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Speaker 2: their town and has taken formal sanctuary in the basement

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Speaker 2: of a Quaker house. The cops seem to know he's there, though,

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Speaker 2: or at least suspect it. They keep a squad car

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Speaker 2: parked out front at all hours and have followed the

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Speaker 2: two old Quakers who come and go. He's heard from

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Speaker 2: a friend who escaped the raids in another city and

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Speaker 2: has been riding the rail. Matthew has a normy friend,

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Speaker 2: a former movement lawyer who has fallen off the radar

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Speaker 2: doing corporate work for a decade, but who he is

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Speaker 2: certain would put his other friend up. It's just that

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Speaker 2: he's got no way to contact him. He has another

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Speaker 2: friend who made it down across the southern border but

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Speaker 2: is penniless. Needs a money transfer to get an apartment

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Speaker 2: and look for a job. It could be cryptocurrency, even

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Speaker 2: a mailed check. Is it possible to get an anonymous

259
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Speaker 2: money transfer? When Kat gets home, Vera is ready with questions.

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Speaker 2: In the middle of the night, Julie and Maggie have

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Speaker 2: to leave the farm. They drive out with six of

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Speaker 2: their friends lying flat in the back of their truck,

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Speaker 2: supplies and blankets packed on top of them. Every time

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Speaker 2: they swerve around a bend on a back road and

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Speaker 2: see headlights. They flinch, waiting to see if it is

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Speaker 2: the cops or the local militia who promised to kill

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Speaker 2: all of them. The sudden collapse of two major cities

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Speaker 2: from back to back environmental disasters has killed but it

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Speaker 2: has also resulted in the establishment of an immense internal

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Speaker 2: refugee camp in the South. The rumor is that the

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Speaker 2: authorities can't demand id because so many people have lost theirs.

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Speaker 2: There are enough white people in the vast camp, with

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Speaker 2: enough friends and family outside that it looks unlikely they

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Speaker 2: will be purged like so many immigrants had been. If

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Speaker 2: they just keep their stories straight and avoid speaking with

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Speaker 2: an accent, they should be safer there than at the

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Speaker 2: farm where they have lived for the last year. The

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Speaker 2: roads are too chaotic, the internal border checkpoints too overwhelmed.

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Speaker 2: The eight of them make it south intact. They buy

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Speaker 2: taco bell and doughnuts along the way. When they get

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Speaker 2: to the camp, the armed guards shake them down, pilfering

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Speaker 2: whatever they think might be of value from the shoddy

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Speaker 2: posters everywhere. They quickly discover that there are out leftists

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Speaker 2: in the sprawling camp, the kind that want to be

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Speaker 2: an armed gang and won't countenance any organizing that isn't

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Speaker 2: under their umbrella. Every few weeks one of the men's

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Speaker 2: up dead, and it's rarely from the guards or conservatives.

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Speaker 2: The better relief organizations are all fatigued and finn on resources.

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Speaker 2: They keep getting squeezed out by Christian groups and political

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Speaker 2: organizations looking to gain contracts or legitimacy. It's unclear to

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Speaker 2: what extent this is the ruler's accolytes cannibalizing a federal

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Speaker 2: project in an orgy of corruption, and to what extent

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00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 2: the powers that be here deliberately inflicting pressure on the refugees.

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Speaker 2: Buses with corporate branding on the sides promise quick work

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Speaker 2: contracts to those in the camps. People come back bone weary,

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Speaker 2: but they do come back through the security cordons and

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Speaker 2: fencing that surrounds the camp. The ruler brags at this

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Speaker 2: program is finally providing jobs for real citizens. It's said

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00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,080
Speaker 2: that Amazon is restructuring its national supply chain to center

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00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,879
Speaker 2: around the concentrated, cheap labor that the refugee camp provides.

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00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 2: Julie and Maggie keep their head heads down, forming a

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00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 2: tight circle with their friends from the farm. When administrators

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00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,120
Speaker 2: try to split them up into separate tracts of tin sheds,

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00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 2: they find a way to meet up again. When the

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00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,760
Speaker 2: guards took their jewelry and cash, they left them with

306
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,879
Speaker 2: their bulk filtration system, chemical water purifying tabs, and beaten laptop.

307
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Speaker 2: These turn out to be worth more than gems within

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Speaker 2: the camp. Being able to purify gallons of water every

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Speaker 2: day makes their crew self sufficient. What remains of the

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Speaker 2: Internet and the rest of the nation isn't much to

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Speaker 2: speak of, but there's almost nothing in the camp besides

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Speaker 2: a single app that takes over your phone, charges you dearly,

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Speaker 2: and pronounces news headlines from a single source. Julie and

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Speaker 2: Maggie ignore phones entirely, sticking to Maggie's Cassio watch in

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Speaker 2: their laptop. They disable the Wi Fi on it and

316
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 2: pretend it is just for showing pirated shows. Electrical power

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00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 2: is available in the camp for a hefty charge, but

318
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 2: folks rig up DIY tin can and magnet turbines in

319
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 2: the river that can recharge batteries if you wait long enough.

320
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Speaker 2: Once you're in camp, you can't leave, but smugglers promise

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Speaker 2: to get letters or even packages to and from the

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Speaker 2: outside world. Rumor has it that many of them steal

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Speaker 2: whatever you entrust to them and turn anything incriminating over

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00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 2: to the cops for rewards. Julie and Maggie have signed

325
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 2: GPG keys with everyone they lived with at the farm,

326
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Speaker 2: and those who didn't flee with them to the camps

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00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 2: are now vital relays to a wider network. The uncle

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00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,160
Speaker 2: of the three girls they saved has left the adjoining

329
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,480
Speaker 2: farm to join up with the family further east. His

330
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 2: white father's name and address is above suspicion. So far,

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00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 2: they operate a rudimentary onion network mailing USB's out with

332
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 2: the smugglers. First they encrypt a message to the final recipient.

333
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 2: Then they encrypt that encrypted message plus a note about

334
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,919
Speaker 2: how to relay it to them to a friend like

335
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 2: the uncle. This encrypted file they hide is a malformed

336
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 2: gift among other memes and similar drunk of the sort

337
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,320
Speaker 2: that has passed around the internal refugee camp. If the

338
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 2: smugglers or anyone else inspect the USB on its way

339
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 2: to the uncle, they just see some memes in a

340
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,919
Speaker 2: broken gift. It's crude and not every message makes it,

341
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,959
Speaker 2: but enough do. Soon enough, Julie and Maggie are writing

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00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,680
Speaker 2: reports on the camps that are getting to anarchist journalists

343
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,119
Speaker 2: and infosites in other countries. One of the companies that

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00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 2: oversees the camp's most hated enforcement drones, gets its supply

345
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,960
Speaker 2: lines attacked in the Mediterranean. The CTO is assassinated at

346
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 2: a gala. When news reaches the camp, even conservative Grannis,

347
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,439
Speaker 2: who are always on about racist conspiracy theories, are suddenly

348
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,680
Speaker 2: praising those anarchists. A communicate from distant Comrades makes its

349
00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 2: way back through the laborious series of USB exchange solidity.

350
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 2: It reads means attack, dun, dun, dunn. But you know

351
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 2: what doesn't mean attack, but instead means shifting to advertisements.

352
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:16,400
Speaker 2: It's when I shift to advertisements like now.

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Speaker 1: And we're back.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that was a chapter. What's your take on

355
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 2: their onion network of USBs.

356
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 3: It seems complicated, honestly, it's it's a little, it's a little.

357
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 3: So this this section starts to think get into a

358
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 3: little bit of science fiction y, just because I don't

359
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 3: really know what it would look like now, because it's

360
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 3: hard for me to sort of imagine it. But yes,

361
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 3: you could do this. I was thinking of a story though,

362
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 3: So during the Edward Snowden links he was trying to

363
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 3: get his stuff out to journalist and Glenn Greenwald now

364
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 3: has gone off the deep end, but back then he

365
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 3: was a person to talk to about these sorts of things.

366
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 3: And Edward Snowden and a researcher from the EFF both

367
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 3: tried to get Glenn Greenwald to understand GPG and they

368
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 3: couldn't do it. So I think that there's like, you know,

369
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 3: and these both very technical people and they're like, okay,

370
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Speaker 3: we're going to teach this journalists how to eat GPG.

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Speaker 3: They couldn't do it. So I'm very impressed in this

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Speaker 3: section of like how much they're like, oh yeah, we're

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Speaker 3: going to teach these two punks GPG in an evening,

374
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 3: and like maybe you can do that. But again, like

375
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 3: you as you interrupted yourself in the piece, this stuff

376
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 3: is complicated and it's complicated to get right and maintain.

377
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 3: Like I think that's also it's like you do it

378
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 3: and you're like, okay, it's done, and then you don't

379
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 3: think you have to think about it, but then you

380
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 3: lose your key, or you lose your private key, and

381
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 3: then everything's borked, or you sign somebody's key and they

382
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 3: change keys or something like. It's just it. It's very complicated,

383
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 3: and like this piece tries to break it down, and

384
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 3: I appreciate that, but I would really like to see

385
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 3: sort of like a broken down guide. And I think

386
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 3: that at the end of this piece they go into

387
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 3: it a little bit and I didn't go through that,

388
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 3: but I want to challenge, you know, people who aren't

389
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 3: really familiar with this stuff on a day to day basis,

390
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 3: go through that tutorial and see how easy it is,

391
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 3: because I don't know if you would make it through

392
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 3: the first first pass. Yeah, I know, what were your thoughts.

393
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: I think that it's actually the kind of thing that's

394
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: a little bit easier with someone teaching you than reading

395
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 2: things on the internet about it. Yeah, which is sort

396
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 2: of ironic considering kind of what it's about. I can

397
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: imagine this kind of working. But I think that the

398
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 2: like lost nodes, like over all the Internet wants to

399
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 2: reroute around damage, right, Yeah, this system doesn't seem like

400
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: the way I understand. It doesn't seem like it can

401
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: really reroute around damage, and so it just has damage.

402
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 2: And they talk about not everything getting through and things

403
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 2: like that, and I think I think having signed gpgkeys

404
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 2: with your friends in affinity group and stuff like that

405
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 2: makes a certain amount of sense. I think that there's

406
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: a use case that actually is kind of interesting about GPG,

407
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 2: about how you can use it in these other apps. Right, Oh,

408
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: I don't trust this other thing that people are doing,

409
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 2: so I'm going to you know, use this thing. But

410
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 2: I also I think that it presumes like a complete

411
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 2: omniscient state actor.

412
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: You know.

413
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 2: Actually, one of the things that I was thinking about

414
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: with this piece is like, you know, they're talking about

415
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: like being nervous, meeting up in the donut shop and

416
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 2: things like that, right, And that makes sense. I would

417
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 2: be too. I would be incredibly nervous. This sounds like

418
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 2: the most terrifying thing that anyone could have to well,

419
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 2: among the most terrifying things that people could have to

420
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: go through. But I also think that I don't know,

421
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: my touchdown is more history reading than anything else. Right,

422
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 2: because of my other podcasts, they should listen to cool

423
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: people did cool stuff. And one of the things that

424
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 2: I feel like comes up is that shit gets done

425
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 2: when people trust people more than they think they should. Yeah,

426
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: and this idea of like only trusting the most secure

427
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 2: and I'm not even saying the author is saying this,

428
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: but like this like level of like only the most

429
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: secure thing. Like, look, if you are planning certain kinds

430
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,959
Speaker 2: of stuff, which spoiler they start planning in this story,

431
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: maybe that's the kind of thing you are planning with

432
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: like absolute complete opsee right, But like this getting news

433
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 2: in and out stuff, it might not need to be

434
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 2: so complicated, like I would suspect a more likely way

435
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: is that it is clear text and it comes with

436
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: a bribe, you know. Like, Yeah, I don't know. I

437
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: find the GPG USB thing really interesting and I think

438
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 2: it's like an interesting framework. But I also think that

439
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: like where's mesh networking in this where is well, I

440
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: guess radio is going to come up in a little bit,

441
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 2: but like mesh networking seems more interesting to me, right, Yeah,

442
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 2: I don't know.

443
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 3: I think mesh networking solves a little bit different of

444
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 3: a problem of more of just like being able to

445
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 3: put together sort of a quick ad hoc network. But

446
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 3: I agree with you, and I also think like I

447
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 3: was talking to a friend about this piece and they

448
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 3: were like, oh, I would just use a one time pad.

449
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 3: I'm not going to go into the details at one

450
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 3: time pad but yeah, but like one time pads are

451
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: a little bit more simpler, but still offer unbreakable encryption

452
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 3: as long as you're keeping the key together. And again

453
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: I guess it's you know, you don't get the advantage

454
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 3: of a public and private key, but you still get

455
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 3: some security. And I do think that like there may

456
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 3: be a technique though for this of like getting out

457
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 3: of information is maybe you want it as public as

458
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 3: possible sometimes because it sounds like in this world they're

459
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 3: in a space where it's like it's a media blackout

460
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 3: almost and it's like maybe it's a sticker you put

461
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 3: on every single package or something that's going out of

462
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 3: a particular place, or like my mind went to also

463
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 3: HF radio, which is with a very little wattage, you

464
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 3: can get across the world a message and then you

465
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 3: could at least get it out. Yes, there is ways

466
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: to triangulate a radio station if it was broadcasting all

467
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 3: the time, but I think that that would come up

468
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 3: as well. So yeah, there's something to be said with

469
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: like this is a little bit of like you using

470
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 3: technical terminology, but like having a data classification standard for

471
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: the types of messaging you're saying, so like you know,

472
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 3: like you got to consider like what's public information versus

473
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 3: private information essentially, So it's like, you know, you don't

474
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 3: want to put your social security number out there or

475
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 3: your name and address, but like information and news maybe

476
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 3: as something that's a different data classification standard and can

477
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: be like, oh, okay, these are the precautions that I'm

478
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 3: going to take at these different levels of the who

479
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: needs to know?

480
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: That makes sense to me. I actually think one of

481
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: the things that I liked about this particular piece, this

482
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: chapter of it, the part where they're just changing where

483
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: I think it's Verra is just using cats Internet and

484
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: doesn't want to like change the way that the Internet

485
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 2: gets used and change the way that the algorithm sees

486
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,239
Speaker 2: it and stuff like that. I feel like there is

487
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: like understanding threat models at different levels. I think that

488
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 2: like sometimes you're like, oh, I just kind of need

489
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: to make sure the algorithm doesn't catch like I don't

490
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: trigger any like flags of like an AI that's snooping

491
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: on me and looking for algorithm like looking for changes

492
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: in behavior or something like that.

493
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 3: Do you know about like browser fingerprinting?

494
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: I don't.

495
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 3: So there's this thing that exists that is basically like

496
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 3: your browser can be a unique identifier for an individual

497
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 3: based on things as minute as like the window size.

498
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: And this is one of the reasons that TAILS has

499
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 3: a standard window size that it does not change, like

500
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: it always gives a certain resolution, so it's the exactly

501
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: the same So anybody using TAILS shows up in exactly

502
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 3: the same way, because there are like you give up

503
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: when you go to a website, your device gives like

504
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 3: the the browser, you know, the version number, and like

505
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 3: you have cookies in your browser that tell different information.

506
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 3: And then also it's like things like they can determine

507
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 3: different people based on like they're your screen size. Yeah,

508
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: and so I did appreciate it that part, and its

509
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 3: like she understood this threat model, like Okay, these are

510
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 3: the different ways that like things can be tracked, and

511
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: I'm just going to use it exactly like this person,

512
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 3: so it doesn't look like anybody else. I think that's

513
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 3: there are more technical ways to implement that, and I

514
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 3: think TAILS does that, of course, But thinking about that,

515
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 3: I think is a good idea, especially if you and

516
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 3: again I don't think it's saying this in the piece,

517
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: but I think we're supposed to be expecting that, like, yes,

518
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: we're in a very heightened monitoring state, which maybe we

519
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: don't exist in today, but like I know, like Chinese Internet,

520
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 3: for example, is more heavily monitored than United States Internet,

521
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 3: at least at an explicit level.

522
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I mean, I feel like in the

523
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: US we're just being monitored in a way that they

524
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: just sell our information advertisers.

525
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 3: But I feel like, yeah, that.

526
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: Threat model could change or is changing. One more thing

527
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: I want to say about this chunk of it. I

528
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: don't think that hitchhiking and hopping trains is a good

529
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: way to move around when you want to avoid police. Yeah,

530
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: I understand why that was used, and I even suspect

531
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: just literally based on the outlet that is crime think

532
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: that the author might have experienced with both of those

533
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: forms of travel. But I also have experienced both of

534
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: those forms of travel, and in my mind, hitchhiking is

535
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: the easiest way to interact with police. I can't think

536
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: of a hitch hiking trip I went on where I

537
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: didn't end up searched or at least stopped and had

538
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: my ID run, you know, And that's without living in

539
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: like fascist dystopia. Look for the anarchist land and riding

540
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: trains is a really good way to go to jail

541
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: in the modern world. I've read a lot of fiction

542
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: where people are like, we gotta go off grid. I know,

543
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: let's ride the rails, and everyone's like yeah, And I'm like,

544
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: there isn't a good easy way to get around without

545
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: drawing attention to yourself or being surveilled like bicycles or

546
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: you know, draw some attention to yourself anyway.

547
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I felt there was another part of this, like

548
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 3: around the legal defense, and like I felt there was

549
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 3: like a moment of infighting too. It's like there was

550
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 3: like an individual who was coming who was like I

551
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 3: don't like them. Yeah, yeah, And I thought that was

552
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: very on point, because yeah, I.

553
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: Like the realization that you're like, sometimes you just got

554
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: to get over that shit exactly, even though like some

555
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: of that stuff is real, but it's like there's just

556
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: a scale. There's just a scale of like how much

557
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: is this person in your enemy. It's the thing that

558
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: I always go on and on about is de escalate

559
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: all conflict that isn't with the enemy. And people are like, well, well,

560
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: how do you define the enemy? And I'm like I

561
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: kind of defined the enemy as if there was a

562
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: shooting war, they'd be shooting at me. Yeah, you know,

563
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: not that they are currently that that's currently what's happening,

564
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: But if there was one, they'd be shooting at me.

565
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, well it's the enemy, you know. Yeah,

566
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: And if they're not that, then it's not ignore the conflict.

567
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 3: It's de escalated, all right, exactly.

568
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: You're ready for attack, yes, attack, okay, but you know

569
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 2: what else you're ready for?

570
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 3: So solidarity means attack, right.

571
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: And solidarity means ads.

572
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 3: Oh that's what that's the old saying I forgot.

573
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Did you know that I learned this more recently? Well, no,

574
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: I learned this a bit ago, but I've been very

575
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: happy about it since I'm someone who accidentally sells ads

576
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: for a living through radical content. Do you know that

577
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: all the old radical news papers they alsold ads?

578
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 3: Makes sense to me.

579
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like this local barber is down with the

580
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: like you know, socialist organizing in this town or the

581
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: you know whatever. Anyway, here's ads and if they're for gambling,

582
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: don't do it. Oh man sel get away with saying that.

583
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: And here they are.

584
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 3: And we're back.

585
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: Attack. It's actually pretty hard to live in the forest.

586
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: Jake and Ethan knew it would be when they drove

587
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: their van far off an abandoned logging road and began

588
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: burying it with dirt and branches to avoid detection by

589
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: overhead drones. But they couldn't live in the city anymore,

590
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: not after the attack on city hall. Every night they

591
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: laugh about the video of the supposedly progressive mayor, the

592
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: one who had approved the executions of so many of

593
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: their friends in black saides or ditches, screaming as he

594
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: emerged from the burning ruins. Every night, we are still

595
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 2: alive to cherish this as a gift, they tell each other.

596
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: It makes freezing on a punctured air mattress and throwing

597
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 2: centipedes out of their bedding a little more tolerable. Before

598
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: they had escaped the city in their increasingly suspect van,

599
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: stencils had started appearing of the dying Mare's face on

600
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 2: the newsreel. Printed underneath was no pity. Food is a problem.

601
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: Though they rapidly pick the surrounding valleys clean of dandelions, miners, lettuce, chickweed,

602
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: and blackberries. After they almost get caught rating a dumpster

603
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: for something with calories in it, they realize they need

604
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 2: a better system. Once a month they make their way

605
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: through the forest to the outer suburbs of the city.

606
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: Cookie leaves two plastic bags of food and stove gas

607
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: canisters for them to pick up in a forested nook

608
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 2: just outside an army graveyard. Peanut butter, chocolate, granola, olive oil,

609
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: instant rice chili. Sometimes there's also a book or a

610
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: board game. There's never any tea for Ethan, though it's

611
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: impossible to get hormones for anyone these days. Back at

612
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: the buried van, they carefully ration their laptop use, laboriously

613
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: rebuilding battery charge from a damaged solar panel. They hook

614
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 2: up to the Baufang radio at specific times. With email

615
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 2: effectively banned, Ash is now running communication bursts in the

616
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 2: region via radio. About once a week. She bikes out

617
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: to random locations around the edge of the city and

618
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: fires off a blast of noise over ham radio before

619
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: taking off. A few drones now circle the city, taking

620
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 2: pictures triangulating her signal each time she sends it. She's

621
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: in a race against time with them. This noise is encrypted,

622
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: of course, and decrypted via private keys now shared by

623
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 2: a wider set of anarchist survivors. Each communication bursts includes

624
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 2: the time of the next burst, though not the place.

625
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: Jake and Ethan connect their radio to a program on

626
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 2: their laptop each time, waiting to read and to crypt.

627
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 2: Most nights, it's just news from the wider world ferried

628
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 2: in via underground networks, warnings of systemic sweeps planned for

629
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: certain neighborhoods or local highways being closed by militias. But

630
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: one night it's something new. The ruler of the new

631
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: regime is coming for a photo op. They're going to

632
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 2: drag out one of the comrades that kept alive from

633
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 2: the original raids and execute her as the mastermind of

634
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 2: the attack on city Hall. There will be a ton

635
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 2: of security, but maybe not enough for six different shooters.

636
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: It's dangerous to keep connecting to the Wi Fi in

637
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: the middle of the night at the same cafe, so

638
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: Via rotates cafes, making sure that Kat doesn't get the

639
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: Wi Fi password on the same days and doesn't bring

640
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: a phone or device when she does go with tour blocked.

641
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 2: Vera knows that every time she uses the Internet at

642
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: a cafe to check sketchy websites, it's a signal to

643
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 2: the authorities. There's a radical still running around her town.

644
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 2: She tries not to check sketchy websites the same nights

645
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 2: at the same cafes where she checks the backup email

646
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: account she's been using to message with Matthew. She writes

647
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 2: most of her emails ahead of time to minimize time

648
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: on the ground, no more than three minutes connected, then

649
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 2: back into the night. The cops could catch her if

650
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: they really put resources into it, but she's banking on

651
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: their laziness. Then one day her emails are blocked. All

652
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 2: email seems to be blocked. There's new idea legislation that's

653
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 2: gone into place. This is the last night Vera goes

654
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: out to a cafe, but by that point she's already

655
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: helped build a relay network across town. Every Monday, Matthew

656
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 2: hands a USB to one of his Quaker hosts, who

657
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 2: slips it down the side of a bench while sipping

658
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 2: coffee in a park. Cat checks on the side of

659
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: the same bench a couple hours later and brings it

660
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 2: home to Vera, who decrypts it. Relay points and drop

661
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: spots now exist across town because Matthew's efforts to rope

662
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: in the former movement lawyer have succeeded. There are now

663
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: two anarchists hiding out on the lamb from other cities

664
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: in his house. One lives in the attic. The other

665
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: has changed her hair color, removed some piercings, added a

666
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: full face of makeup, and is working a job under

667
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 2: the table. A month ago they helped relay the complete

668
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: archives of a major anarchist collection that had supposedly been

669
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: purged from a university. It went south with an anarchist

670
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: backpacking a long mountain trail. Our drives with copies of

671
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 2: the collection are now squirreled away in various places. Another

672
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: anarchist that their new network loosely knows, has set up

673
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: a hidden camp on an island in the river, taking

674
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: a little canoe back and forth into a national park

675
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: in the wee hours once a week and getting supplies.

676
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 2: Kat and the lawyer are finding ways to slip an

677
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: extra hundred a month to him. Conservatives have been screaming

678
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: about demolishing the little libraries on people's lawns because liberals

679
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: stuck a few banned books in them. They have no

680
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 2: idea that Vera's network uses them as flags to notify

681
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: couriers about drops. A pulp sci fi book with a

682
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 2: spine turned inward placed on top of a certain little

683
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: library means to surreptitiously pick up a USB from a

684
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: Burger king bag and a trash can down the street.

685
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: They're getting a whole system going. Vera doesn't need to

686
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: know the network beyond her immediate circles. With her pre

687
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 2: existing GPG public keys for certain distant comrades, she can

688
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: just send encrypted messages with a distant city as a

689
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: public destination and wait for couriers and swaps to copy

690
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: and circulate it until her recipient can decrypt it. Messages

691
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: get lost, but some get through through the network. Distant

692
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: strangers trade tips and tricks they have learned keeping their

693
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: local networks up. With so much of the Internet down,

694
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: normies have started engaging in wider swap networks for saved files.

695
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 2: It's almost like the libs are making their own little,

696
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: really really free markets. It doesn't matter that Kat doesn't

697
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: have a Netflix account, because now Vera has access to

698
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: every show once torrented by local nerds. She keeps the

699
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 2: new laptop that accepts such USB as air gapped from

700
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 2: everything else, even if it's not the show she'd prefer

701
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: Vera can watch TV again, have something to do, knowing

702
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: they can make a difference helping other anarchists as Cat

703
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: and Vera in a much better mood. Their city is

704
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: a locust point in an emerging national underground railroad. That

705
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: friend of Matthew south of the border that Kat sent

706
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: cash to he has a job now and his apartment

707
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: is packed with anarchists who have survived the dangerous trek

708
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 2: across the border. They still have internet down there as

709
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: Vera's little sneaker net devices. Folks begin to loop in

710
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 2: around the edges, certain liberals from the pirate networks who

711
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: have proven they can be trusted, at least with some things,

712
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: at least to help relay GPG messages. One of the

713
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 2: liberals in the network finds a way to tap into

714
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 2: the credit card reader communications network and sneak packages of

715
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: information back and forth with the programmer friend in another country.

716
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 2: When the Quaker house is raided and Matthew is summarily

717
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 2: shot inside, it hardly breaks anyone's stride, and soon enough

718
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: the network of safe houses and dead drop couriers is

719
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: so well established that a subsection of it can risk moving.

720
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: Not just people and money, but guns. Julie holds the

721
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 2: wound closed while Maggie applies the glue, a contraband gift

722
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 2: slipped into the camp via their smuggler friends. The fallen

723
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 2: striker is cursing up a storm, but at least he's

724
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 2: not fainting. Where's that blasted Red Cross worker? The crowd

725
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 2: around them isn't howling or chanting. They're just jumping up

726
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: and down in waves, a tactics somehow revived from decades

727
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 2: ago in apartheid South Africa. It makes the earth seem

728
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: to shiver and shift, an avalanche of people, a force

729
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: of nature. The usually sandy ground of the camp is

730
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: already muddy with the reins of the flash flood. All

731
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 2: the jumping makes it squelch in a way that adds

732
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: up to something like the roar of the ocean.

733
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 3: This is it.

734
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 2: More bullets are going to fly, but the Guards don't

735
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 2: have enough, and the camp knows it. The gangs have disappeared.

736
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 2: The leftists who talk endlessly about a mass strike are

737
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: nowhere to be seen. The ruin tattooed fascists who work

738
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: hand in hand with the guards are magically gone too.

739
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: A scrawny white boy who usually proudly hawks black market items,

740
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: is beating his chest wildly as he jumps alongside the

741
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: grizzled Latina dyke who drives the aid workers around. Maggie's

742
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,479
Speaker 2: cassio watch is beeping with some irrelevant reminder. Their mud

743
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 2: soaked dog is jumping excitedly too, deciding the vast crowd

744
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: is playing a game with her. Maybe the three of

745
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: them will survive this too. If that video of the

746
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: ruler's photo op that was smuggled in is to be believed,

747
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: anything is possible. Dun dun dune. And also it is

748
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 2: worth pointing out that crime Think has attended a specific

749
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: note the publishers endorse Signal as the most secure, widely

750
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 2: used option for encrypted messaging. But yeah, all right, the

751
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: fourth and final chapter.

752
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 3: What you're thinking, Well, one of the things is just

753
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 3: this is probably my piece punk roots of just like

754
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: I don't think I would be one to be repetively

755
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 3: watching a video of somebody dying and laughing about it.

756
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: I know, and I think like shit sucks, and it's

757
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 3: really important that we keep our humanity in times of crisis,

758
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 3: and I don't know if I would be able to

759
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 3: do that. But I do think it's important. Yeah, but

760
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 3: I'm not sad when you know, like Nazis get hurt.

761
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 3: But I don't know, No.

762
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: There should probably be a heaviness to it, even when

763
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: it's necessary, yeah, in the science fiction story.

764
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 3: But yeah, then they started talking about this like radio

765
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 3: noise encryption thing, which I was thinking a lot about. Like,

766
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: I don't know, so a bow thing is a analog

767
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 3: radio and so you would have to connect it to

768
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 3: a computer of course, which they do talk about. But

769
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: I don't know of any current protocols that you could

770
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 3: send in that way that they're describing. But if there

771
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 3: was a sort of a network of it sounds like

772
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: they're just talking about two individuals, which I was doing

773
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 3: a little bit of research, and it looks like if

774
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,479
Speaker 3: you have two people holding a radio at like head

775
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: height that are they're both like about six feet tall,

776
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 3: you get about six miles of distance. So that's your

777
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 3: area of communication. Now, if you're on top a mountain.

778
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 3: I've known people to get like, you know, halfway across

779
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: the state through a handheld radio. It's kind of pretty amazing.

780
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 3: So you'd have to put that into account as well.

781
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 3: And so maybe these people are relatively close by, and

782
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 3: then they're using some technology that doesn't exist yet to

783
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 3: communicate crypted messages.

784
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: I thought you could transmit data, like, I know, isn't

785
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: there a thing where you can like get pictures on

786
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 2: your phone from the space station that they send down viral?

787
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's slow scan television, So that would be

788
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 3: a way to do it. Is you could use slow

789
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 3: scan television send images, but again those aren't encrypted.

790
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: Right, But if you can send data, can't you send

791
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: encrypted data potentially?

792
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 3: Yeah? I just don't know what exactly that would look

793
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 3: like today. Like I don't know if there's a way

794
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 3: to like put GPG into audio, So I'd have to

795
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 3: look up that. But if anybody knows, maybe they can

796
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 3: tell us.

797
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: I think you can transmit data over an ANALOGO and

798
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 2: if you can transmit data, you can then you can

799
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 2: transmit encrypted data.

800
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know you know more about radios than me.

801
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 3: I'm just like you definitely can. I just don't know

802
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 3: what protocol they would be using. That's what I'm curious about.

803
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: Ah.

804
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like the like the encryption protocol that's used by

805
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 3: police is digital. It's P twenty.

806
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: Five basically, it's like that's not something a bo fan

807
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 2: can do, is what you're saying.

808
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 3: No, Yeah, it also depends on sort of what you're like,

809
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 3: if you connect an analog radio to a computer, there's

810
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 3: a lot you can do, Like there's one of the

811
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 3: main ways that ham radio operators communicate today is through

812
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 3: computer to computer communication over high frequency bands. Okay, Like, yeah,

813
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 3: the email blocking thing was interesting to me. I don't

814
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 3: know if commerce would allow emails to be blocked, but

815
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 3: maybe like businesses maybe would be exempt. But I that

816
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 3: one was a little bit like I just feel like

817
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 3: there's so much commerce that up and see a email.

818
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 3: I don't know.

819
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would have to be like I mean, you know,

820
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: we're obviously I'm out a fairly different society. I feel

821
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 2: like society changes very dramatically from the start of the

822
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 2: story to the end of this story. Yeah, and I

823
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: guess I could imagine, like, well, if there's just like

824
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: other ways that commerce is like communicating, just like different channels,

825
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 2: different different protocols that are being developed for it or whatever.

826
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: It seems like if they can block the tour network,

827
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 2: they could probably block sketchy websites from other countries.

828
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's like maybe nitpicky.

829
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 2: I like that they use the underground Railroad. I actually

830
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 2: like this section a lot. This might be my favorite

831
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 2: of the four sections in terms of partly because it

832
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 2: starts breaking out of and now maybe even just being

833
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: critical of it, like as a piece. Again, I like

834
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 2: this piece. I wouldn't have read it if I wouldn't

835
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: find it interesting. But there's a lot of like ideological

836
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: like us anarchists or the good ones and all the

837
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 2: like everyone else's kind of a bunch of dumb dumbs

838
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 2: or whatever implied until you get to this part. You know, Yeah,

839
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: and now you have liberals who are like part of

840
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: the dead drop system, and you have like in Quakers. Yeah,

841
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 2: that's true, and like it almost makes sense. This most

842
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 2: hopeful section is when they stop only talking to other

843
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 2: anarchists and like start working with a broader coalition of people. Yeah,

844
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 2: and I really like that the one of the main

845
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: references points that they use at the underground Railroad. I

846
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 2: actually think that when it comes to this country, we

847
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 2: have an incredibly rich history in this country of what

848
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 2: resistance to a system that's even worse than what's presented.

849
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: And this story is like the like genocide, slave nightmare,

850
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 2: country that this country was slash is built upon, you know,

851
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 2: and like the underground Railroad wasn't. I mean, yeah, I

852
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: had a disproportionate number of Quakers, right, but they weren't like, yeah, hey,

853
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: you better be Quaker or the following type of abolitionist

854
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 2: in order to be part of this. You know, there

855
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 2: was a lot of trust, and there was a lot

856
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 2: of like just being like, well, we're going to do

857
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: it's right, you know, and like finding people who are

858
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 2: going to do it's right. And so I think the

859
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: underground railroad is a really brilliant touch point.

860
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I wanted to talk about that a little

861
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 3: bit too, because like at the end of the piece,

862
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 3: it seems like they're sort of like having a gorilla war,

863
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 3: and you know, we have the example of Spain, the

864
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 3: Spanish Civil War of having a period of you know,

865
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 3: at least winning or progress or not being completely annihilated.

866
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: But like.

867
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 3: I just get really, I guess despondent about the fact

868
00:49:53,840 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 3: that like win fascism has been sort of like stamped out.

869
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 3: It's been because of other states, like in World War Two,

870
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 3: like there was a lot of resistance movement, but if

871
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,720
Speaker 3: it weren't for the other governments what would have happened.

872
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 3: And I think that, like the it's a two tiered

873
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 3: system that needs to happen. I'm not trying to say that,

874
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 3: like the only resistance to fascism is more state, but.

875
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 2: Certainly the fascist governments that fell quickly, you know, Italy

876
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 2: and Germany, And by quickly I mean twenty years and

877
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 2: ten years yeah each you know, my numbers aren't exact, sorry,

878
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: And those fell because they andrew to war that they lost, right, Yeah.

879
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: A lot of times dictators last until they die, but

880
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 2: dictatorships do fall, just often a generation or two later,

881
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 2: and often because of this upswell of social movements. Yeah,

882
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 2: and especially when the social movements are not afraid of

883
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 2: being down with the people who are also doing violence,

884
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 2: like for that cause, you know. And I haven't done

885
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: as much reading about the resistance apartheid South Africa as

886
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 2: I would like to, but everything I've read about it,

887
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: you have groups that are working both above ground and underground,

888
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 2: and like, yeah, and you're pulling in political pressure from elsewhere.

889
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 2: And a lot of the Latin American dictatorships that I've

890
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: read about have fallen in similar ways, you know, where

891
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: like combination social movement. But then like the people kind

892
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 2: of keeping the flame alive are often the people who

893
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 2: are burning things down, you know.

894
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and the burning things down and feeding people

895
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 3: and taking care of people's kids and like totally, Like

896
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 3: I think that there's definitely totally I like to see about,

897
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: you know, the network. You know, that it's not just

898
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 3: one thing that is needed. And what this piece I

899
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 3: think does really well is kind of calls out like

900
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 3: we do kind of need everybody to do whatever they're

901
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 3: good at or whatever they yeah, you know, feel like

902
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:58,720
Speaker 3: is important totally.

903
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: And You're looking at our three protagonists groups doing three

904
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 2: different things. Two of them are like burning stuff and

905
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 2: shooting people, one of them is you know, two of

906
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: them are just moving information around, and two of them

907
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 2: are like participating in a broad coalition social like movement. Yeah,

908
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,399
Speaker 2: which I do think is a strength of this piece.

909
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,760
Speaker 2: And seeing how like the three of them relate, well,

910
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 2: hopefully all that stays science fiction. When I look at this,

911
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 2: this is not quite my threat model. And I'm more

912
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 2: concerned about things going very badly than most of the

913
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 2: people I know, to be honest, But this is not

914
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 2: quite my threat model. But I think it is absolutely

915
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 2: worth thinking about a lot of possibilities and thinking about

916
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 2: like how we prepare. And I really appreciate this piece

917
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: is like attempt at just breaking down like I don't know,

918
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 2: here's an idea of how to do some technological stuff,

919
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:58,760
Speaker 2: and like, I think there's a lot of good ideas

920
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 2: in it. And hopefully it never comes to any of that,

921
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 2: but you know, we'll see.

922
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's always good to practice. And

923
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 3: I think that if you're somebody who isn't as familiar

924
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 3: with these technologies, or haven't done your own threat models,

925
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 3: or you know, have had a passing interest in this

926
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 3: stuff but never sat down with it, it's totally useful

927
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 3: to just say, like, I think one good piece of

928
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 3: homework would be try to learn how to use PGP,

929
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 3: you know, and understand at least what's going on under

930
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 3: the hood. When somebody mentions it, you're like, oh, yeah,

931
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 3: I'm familiar with that. I know what's going on. Or

932
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 3: try to send your b rend a message. I don't know,

933
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 3: but yeah, I think if we constantly are sort of

934
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 3: I guess it is a form of play. If you know,

935
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 3: we're we're playing around with these technologies, we're trying to

936
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 3: see what works and what doesn't. And you know, in

937
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 3: low stake situations where we're just sending each other cat memes,

938
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 3: we can maybe figure out how to do things when

939
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 3: it does matter.

940
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would say in general, I think radio

941
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 2: communications and a lot of these things can be fun

942
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 2: to play with. Also, those people who lived in a

943
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: van would have done great if they had cashed a

944
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff in the woods ahead of time, or

945
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 2: kept their van more prepared if their van had is

946
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 2: a very good place to cash things is a van.

947
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 2: You have many five gallon buckets of beans and rice

948
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 2: you can fit in a van. How many I don't know,

949
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 2: but I have a fair number of Anyway. Yep, that's

950
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 2: it for cools on Media book Club, and next week

951
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 2: I will probably get back to my book. The barrel

952
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:28,879
Speaker 2: will send what it may unless something like this comes

953
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 2: up and then it gets interrupted again, but who knows.

954
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 2: Talk to you all soon.

955
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 3: Thank you.

956
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

957
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

958
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

959
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

960
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: You can find sources for it could happen here. Updated

961
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.