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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I Never told you, Protection of

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Speaker 2: iHeart Radio. And today, in honor of Pride Month, we

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Speaker 2: are bringing back one that I could have sworn we

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Speaker 2: already brought back, but we haven't. And it is a

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Speaker 2: book club episode we did on fun Home, a family

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Speaker 2: tragic comic.

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Speaker 3: Yes, which we've been.

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Speaker 2: Talking a lot about the whole thing with book banning

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Speaker 2: and especially around LGBTQ plus books in this context, and

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Speaker 2: I know Alison Bechdel has been speaking about it.

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Speaker 3: And when we did this episode, this book.

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Speaker 2: Was the target of a lot of book banning efforts

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Speaker 2: and some of them very very intense, very intense. But

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Speaker 2: we do love when we get the chance to do

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Speaker 2: graphic novel right, plays on graphic novels that maybe are

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Speaker 2: not what you would think of. Yes, and this was

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Speaker 2: a good I think this is one of the first

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Speaker 2: ones we did that was more serious than.

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Speaker 3: Like other things.

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Speaker 4: So good, it's so good, Yes, So please enjoy this

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Speaker 4: classic episode. Hey, this is Sandy and Samantha, and welcome

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Speaker 4: to Stephane Never told you Production of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: Samantha, were you did you ever get into drawing? Did

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Speaker 2: you ever want to be someone who could draw.

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Speaker 1: I did.

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Speaker 5: I really wanted to be an artist of sorts. I

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Speaker 5: felt like if I could just do something amazing, so

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Speaker 5: I used to do all of my pictures of people

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Speaker 5: would always be of their profile. I felt like, at

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Speaker 5: least if I had the nose already on there, then

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Speaker 5: I could do everything else.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, they were a big bubble face. It was

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Speaker 1: really sad.

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Speaker 5: So I had a lot of bubble face drawings. And

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Speaker 5: then I was able to draw penguins. I was very

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Speaker 5: proud of that. So I was like, oh, I can

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Speaker 5: draw a penguin. That's about the extent of it. I

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Speaker 5: can't draw stick figures really well either, Like you should

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Speaker 5: be easy.

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Speaker 1: But it's not for me. Nothing connects. I don't know why.

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Speaker 5: Whenever we play any type of like win loser draw

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Speaker 5: or you know, guessing games on those routes, people don't

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Speaker 5: want me on their team. I don't I do know why.

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Speaker 5: But I was never good at it. I really wish

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Speaker 5: I had the talent.

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Speaker 1: What about you?

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Speaker 2: Oh well, first of all, I forgot about the drawing

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Speaker 2: games on the phone. That's at the early stage of

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Speaker 2: the pandemic when everyone was like, oh, yes, right, we

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Speaker 2: shall do whatever we need to keep up these connections.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious about the penguins. Was that a choice that

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Speaker 2: you made or was that just something you discovered?

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Speaker 5: So I'm not really sure why we started drawing penguins,

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Speaker 5: but it became like where we use them as kind

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Speaker 5: of puns. So, but it wasn't necessarily about the penguins.

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Speaker 5: It would be about movie titles, so the one would

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Speaker 5: distinctly remember So a good friend of mine who actually

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Speaker 5: is the older sister of Krestin Conger of s Mentee.

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Speaker 1: That's how I met all of them. Honestly.

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Speaker 5: Anna and I used to just draw random like penguins

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Speaker 5: and then make little jokes out of them. And my

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Speaker 5: favorite one, which she did was Splenda in the Grass,

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Speaker 5: so it would be a penguin holding a splenda in

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Speaker 5: tall grass. One of my favorite movies growing up was

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Speaker 5: Splendor in the Grass, which is really really sad and ridiculous.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, so we would do things like that and

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Speaker 5: then we would just pass them all around to each other.

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Speaker 5: I don't know why, but and it was always penguins

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Speaker 5: holding something.

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Speaker 3: Uh huh, I love that. Yeah, that's fantastic. Do you

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Speaker 3: have a many any of them?

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Speaker 4: Men.

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Speaker 5: I think they're gone. Oh I know, I'm very sorry

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Speaker 5: about this. I can distinctly remember hers was much better

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Speaker 5: than mine too, by the way, way better. Mine would

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Speaker 5: just be a penguin who like would wear a hat

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Speaker 5: or something.

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Speaker 2: Still, I love drawing and coloring, as you have seen

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Speaker 2: as an adult, Samantha. If the table mat at a restaurant, yes,

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Speaker 2: has the crowns and like the canvas, then forget the food.

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm doing.

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Speaker 2: And I still like there's a restaurant I went to

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Speaker 2: a couple of years ago where it's kind of hard to.

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Speaker 3: Get your picture on the wall, and I got my

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Speaker 3: picture on the wall.

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Speaker 2: And I took a picture of it as if I'd

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Speaker 2: won some great award, like a picture that you color

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Speaker 2: on the wall. But I was never very good at

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Speaker 2: it either. I think I've said before the lowest grade

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Speaker 2: I've ever gotten was an art. But both of my

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Speaker 2: friends were really good at it, so I was desperate.

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Speaker 2: I kept trying and trying and trying, and I would

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Speaker 2: illustrate all the stuff I would write. I would put

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Speaker 2: in like little boxes, and the pictures were terrible. They

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Speaker 2: were so bad. I could trace things. Though I was

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Speaker 2: good at tracing. I guess that's not so great overall.

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Speaker 1: But better than what I can do.

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Speaker 2: Then I'm not sure that's the case. I have been

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Speaker 2: drawing a lot for D and D for Dungeons and Dragons. Nice,

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Speaker 2: I draw the maps and uh. We recently played Dungeons

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Speaker 2: and Dragons for the first time in person since this

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Speaker 2: particular campaign started, and I got out my very silly,

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Speaker 2: childishly drawn maps and they act as if I was

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Speaker 2: like presenting them the Decoration of Independence.

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Speaker 3: They were so excited, like this the real thing.

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Speaker 5: Yes, unlike you compared it to the Declaration of Independence.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing.

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Speaker 3: They like gas allows. Well.

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Speaker 2: For this edition, book Club, we are talking about a

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Speaker 2: graphic novel, which is why this was on my mind,

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Speaker 2: and because it is Pride Month, we wanted to talk

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Speaker 2: about fun Home, a family tragic comic written by American

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Speaker 2: cartoonist Alison Bechdell in two thousand and six, and yes,

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Speaker 2: that Bechdel of the Bechdel Test. She also wrote the

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Speaker 2: comic strip Dykes to Watch Out for Are You My Mother?

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Speaker 3: A comic drama, and.

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Speaker 2: A memoir published in twenty twenty one called The Secret

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Speaker 2: to Superhuman Strengths. I think it just came out in May,

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Speaker 2: so very recent. In twenty thirteen, A fun Home was

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Speaker 2: adapted for the stage by playwright Lisa Krohn and composer

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Speaker 2: Janine Tassori, and the play went on to win several

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Speaker 2: Tony Awards. Fun Home is an autobiographical look at Bechdell's

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Speaker 2: complicated relationship with her father growing up in rural Pennsylvania

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Speaker 2: at the fun Home, the funeral home her dad runs,

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Speaker 2: but I guess it also functions for the house that

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Speaker 2: they actually live in, which was sort of this Victorian museum, right,

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Speaker 2: which we'll talk about more a bit later. After her

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Speaker 2: father's death, possibly by suicide, she wrestled with understanding her father,

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Speaker 2: his choices and the things he kept from her, and

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Speaker 2: how that interacts with her own coming out and understanding

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Speaker 2: of gender identities, sexual orientation, and gender roles. The book

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Speaker 2: also delves into family dysfunction and emotional abuse, suicide, coming

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Speaker 2: of age literature and how that can be a tool

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Speaker 2: for understanding ourselves in each other, and sexual orientation and

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Speaker 2: attitudes around it and how they've changed or.

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Speaker 3: Haven't over the years.

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Speaker 2: It's beautifully illustrated and draws you into the world. It's

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Speaker 2: often called a graphic novel for word lovers. A lot

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Speaker 2: of the reviews will say like it made me go

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Speaker 2: to the dictionary more than once, which, yes, me too.

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Speaker 2: It's told in a nonlinear way, with new memories being

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Speaker 2: repeated and re examined in light of new information.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so we definitely have to talk about the author.

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Speaker 5: Bechtel was born in nineteen sixty and started drawing as

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Speaker 5: a child. At one time during her childhood, she expressed

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Speaker 5: interest in being a cartoonist. She started drawing characters that

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Speaker 5: looked a lot like her out of college when she

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Speaker 5: didn't see them anywhere. Some of her first jobs after

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Speaker 5: college were boring jobs she took so that she could draw,

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Speaker 5: and this is where she created Dyce to Watch Out for,

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Speaker 5: a humorous comic strip published from nineteen eighty three to

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Speaker 5: two thousand and eight that followed a group of radical

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Speaker 5: lesbians partly inspired by Howard Cruse's gay comics founded in

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Speaker 5: the nineteen seventies. It's from one of these strips that

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Speaker 5: we get the famous Bechdel test and the idea she

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Speaker 5: credits to her friend Liz Wallace. Where you know, I

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Speaker 5: didn't read this out of the actual comic, but it

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Speaker 5: is stated where the friend says, I will not go

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Speaker 5: see this movie unless at least two female characters are

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Speaker 5: talking to each other and it's not about a man.

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Speaker 5: And so she talks about how the last film she

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Speaker 5: saw was Alien, right, and I thought of you.

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Speaker 2: But yes, it was funny reading about it because it's

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Speaker 2: named after Bechdale. She was like, yeah, I don't really

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Speaker 2: like movies really.

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Speaker 3: Before my friend she.

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Speaker 1: Was just like, hey, I'll take it though. It's cool.

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Speaker 5: Hey.

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Speaker 2: So this book took Bechdel several years to create. I

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Speaker 2: believe I read seven. She would photograph herself in the

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Speaker 2: poses of the characters to use as reference when drawing,

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Speaker 2: over four thousand photos in total, and you can see

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Speaker 2: side by side comparisons and it's really amazing. I recommend

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Speaker 2: looking it up. She also referenced real diary entries from

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Speaker 2: her life. She was meticulous in documenting things and has

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Speaker 2: discussed the failings of memory, and she even discusses that

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Speaker 2: within the book. And this hammers home the fact that

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Speaker 2: while this is a graphic novel, it is autobiographical with

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Speaker 2: real life and real events and real loss and violence

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Speaker 2: and pain behind it.

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Speaker 5: Right in twenty fourteen, Bechdel was one of the twenty

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Speaker 5: first recipients chosen for the MacArthur Foundation Genius Grant in

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Speaker 5: part for quote changing our notions of contemporary memoir and

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Speaker 5: explaining the expressive potential of the graphic form. And she's

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Speaker 5: appeared in an episode of The Simpsons in which in

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Speaker 5: the episode where Lisa writes her own graphic novel autobiography

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Speaker 5: called Sad Girl, with illustrationations by March, and they appear

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Speaker 5: together on a comic panel with several other famous cartoonists

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Speaker 5: as well, So that's really fun. It was definitely targeted

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Speaker 5: by many scissorship and banning efforts, with some labeling at

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Speaker 5: pornography because it contained all sex between two women and

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Speaker 5: a woman masturbating four pages of the two hundred and

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Speaker 5: forty page book, by the way, and it still was like, huh, really,

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Speaker 5: this is pornography.

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Speaker 1: I guess it could be.

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Speaker 5: It was even censored in banned at the college level,

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Speaker 5: so that says a lot during our time period, I'm sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that made national headlines, so you can read

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Speaker 2: all about what happened there because it caught, which.

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Speaker 5: Is kind of ironic because she talks about censorship in

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Speaker 5: the graphic novel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people rightfully pointed out to say it's

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Speaker 2: pornography when it's so few, like four pages out of

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Speaker 2: two hundred and forty or whatever. I mean, that's like

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Speaker 2: saying a movie is pornographic for having one sex scene

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Speaker 2: in it in the whole movie.

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Speaker 3: It's just disingenuous, right and incorrect.

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Speaker 2: A few years ago, in twenty seventeen, Bechdel returned to

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Speaker 2: her small hometown to see a production of the play.

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Speaker 2: She said it was super surreal. It was the same

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Speaker 2: theater where my mother would do her amateur dramatics, and

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Speaker 2: my father was on the board.

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Speaker 3: I was a little afraid.

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Speaker 2: I felt anxious, like, oh my god, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: see all these people and they're going to be pissed

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Speaker 2: off with me. Because there were people in my hometown

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Speaker 2: who did not think fun Home was a good thing.

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Speaker 2: They thought it dishonored my family. There was this great

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Speaker 2: warmth that I just hadn't expected. I had thought I

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Speaker 2: was going back to nineteen seventy seven, but the place

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Speaker 2: has changed, it has evolved. My parents, who had met

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Speaker 2: in a play would get to go on living in one, right,

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I do.

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Speaker 5: Like how she mentions the fact that she was kind

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Speaker 5: of glad her mother wasn't alive to see it because

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Speaker 5: her mother did have a hard time with a book

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Speaker 5: in general, which.

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Speaker 1: I've thought about that, you know, you and I have

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Speaker 1: talked about this.

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Speaker 5: We talked about this with Nicole, the author who came

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Speaker 5: and talked about her book. And when we were talking

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Speaker 5: about what would our parents think is it?

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Speaker 1: Is it going to dishonor them do? Are they gonna

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Speaker 1: be hurt by this?

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Speaker 5: And yeah, she talked about that fact that she her mother,

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Speaker 5: I think eventually accepted it, didn't love it, accepted it,

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Speaker 5: but that.

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Speaker 1: The musical may have been too much for her.

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Speaker 5: It would have to be the only way she could

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Speaker 5: really view it is if she was alone watching it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, I mean, I hate to harp

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Speaker 2: on this point all the time, but coming from a

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Speaker 2: small town, I cannot imagine going back to that small town,

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Speaker 2: right and having a play about like me coming out

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Speaker 2: and family drama and having conservative small town Georgia watching.

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Speaker 3: It, right.

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Speaker 5: As well as the fact that not the coming out

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Speaker 5: was also kind of indicated some really unsavory things for

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Speaker 5: the town and especially from her family that.

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Speaker 1: You're like, ooh, ooh yeah, oh, she gonna let it

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Speaker 1: all out. Okay, here we go.

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Speaker 5: But of course, even with all the controversy, as we

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Speaker 5: talked about before, she has won many awards in accolades,

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Speaker 5: including The book was listed as one of the top

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Speaker 5: ten best books of two thousand and six by Time Magazine.

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Speaker 5: It was also given the Eisner Award for the Best

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Speaker 5: Reality Series Works in two thousand and seven, but it

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Speaker 5: also was part given the Award for Best Graphic Album

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Speaker 5: as well, and she was nominated as Best Writer and

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Speaker 5: Artist with the same award. She also won the Stonewall

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Speaker 5: Book Awards Israel Fishman Non Fiction Award in two thousand

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Speaker 5: and seven. She was given the Guggenheim A Fellowship in

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Speaker 5: twenty twelve, Ink Part Award in twenty twelve, as well

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Speaker 5: the Bill Whitehead Award for Lifetime Achievement from Publishing Triangle

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Speaker 5: in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 1: So many awards.

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Speaker 5: She again won the MacArthur Fellowship in twenty fourteen, Lambda

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Speaker 5: Board of Trustees Award for Excellence in Literature in twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 5: the Eric sent Institute Pride for Excellence in Mental Health

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Speaker 5: and Media in twenty fifteen, and.

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Speaker 1: Goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 5: I feel like we also haven't mentioned it yet, but

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Speaker 5: about how she addresses the mental health stuff that she

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Speaker 5: had to go through with her compulsiveness and her fears

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Speaker 5: and anxiety that kind of came out because partially from

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Speaker 5: her family and her trying to figure out her own identity.

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Speaker 5: But it was really interesting as she talks about it,

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Speaker 5: especially when she talks about writing and doing the diary

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Speaker 5: and journaling and how that became compulsive.

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Speaker 1: For her but also a release. It was a very

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Speaker 1: interesting dynamic to see as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's been very very outspoken about therapy, a

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Speaker 2: strong proponent of therapy. So the plot is primarily an

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Speaker 2: examination of Bechdel's father, Bruce, a closeted gay man, and

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Speaker 2: her own coming out as a lesbian and the relationship

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Speaker 2: that the two of them had, the very very complicated relationship.

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Speaker 2: After going to college and realizing her own sexual orientation,

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Speaker 2: Bechdel sends a letter home to her parents about it,

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Speaker 2: and this is and she learns from her mother that

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Speaker 2: her father had affairs with several men, including a few

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Speaker 2: who were underaged. With this revelation, both Alison and her

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Speaker 2: dad struggled to come to terms with how repressing his

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Speaker 2: sexual orientation may have impacted both of them. Her father

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Speaker 2: died a few months later after her letter, and also

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Speaker 2: two weeks after her mother. Bechdel's mother filed for divorce

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Speaker 2: from him.

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Speaker 5: While Allison and her father are the primary characters, her

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Speaker 5: mother and brothers are consistently present, along with her first girlfriend, Joan,

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Speaker 5: as is the house they live in itself, an elaborate,

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Speaker 5: meticulous nineteenth century home styled by her father but maintained

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Speaker 5: by her mother, a home that her father more openly

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Speaker 5: cared for than his family, and all the beautiful ornate

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Speaker 5: objects in it. And I do love the beginning comparison

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Speaker 5: that she has of it with the Adams family. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: it was such a big, great beginning. It was like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: I see exactly what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 5: It has an outward appearance of perfection that he projects

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Speaker 5: only possible with the help and pain of others. So

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Speaker 5: they're constantly having to rearrange and dust the funeral home

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Speaker 5: he inherited after his own father's death. He and his wife, Helen,

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Speaker 5: who had been living in Europe before that, had to

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Speaker 5: return to Pennsylvania once his father had died. The depth

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Speaker 5: of passion and hope and dreams, the thought of escaping

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Speaker 5: the past of a new life. It kind of just

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Speaker 5: all disappeared. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were Helen and Bruce were off in

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Speaker 2: Europe and there's all the like happiness in front of them,

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Speaker 2: and then Bruce's father died after return.

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Speaker 3: Home and it did kind of represent like his.

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Speaker 2: Father's death, but also yes, he's inheriting this funer home

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Speaker 2: and all those dreams they had in Europe are kind of.

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Speaker 3: Like gone, yeah, fizzled outs.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I do love Bechdel's drawings of the comparison

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Speaker 5: of her mom before and after. It's it's it's like, oh,

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Speaker 5: that's too real for her and her.

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Speaker 1: Family was like yeah, I did. That resonate everywhere.

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Speaker 2: And art is almost character in this book too, something

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Speaker 2: that moves all of the human characters. Allison's parents met

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Speaker 2: out a play. Bruce takes refuge in literature and house design,

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Speaker 2: Helen and music. In one of the few ways that

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Speaker 2: Allison can connect to her emotionally abusive father is through literature.

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Speaker 3: It is constant throughout.

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Speaker 2: At first, he is the one doing most of the

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Speaker 2: recommending to Allison, and he's pretty fierce about his opinions,

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Speaker 2: but after Allison goes to college, she recommends some books

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Speaker 2: to him, almost as a way to open the door

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Speaker 2: to them, talking about her coming out as a lesbian

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Speaker 2: and her father's closeted homosexuality or bisexuality, don't know for sure,

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Speaker 2: trying to bond over their sharede yet queerness. Also, just

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Speaker 2: want to throw in here, there was seventeen year Cicadas

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Speaker 2: Nixon Watergate was happening, and I was like, wow, time

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Speaker 2: really is a flat circle.

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Speaker 3: So we have so many themes we want to go over.

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Speaker 2: First, are going to pause for a quick break for

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Speaker 2: word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor.

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Speaker 2: So one of the themes we wanted to start out with,

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Speaker 2: which is probably one of the biggest of not the

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Speaker 2: biggest throughout, is Allison's relationship with her father, which was

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Speaker 2: fraught with yes, emotional abuse and miscommunication, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of her thoughts on this came out after her father's

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Speaker 2: death and her kind of re examining a lot of memories,

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Speaker 2: which I think is one of the most interesting parts

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Speaker 2: of this book is that like you see one a

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Speaker 2: memory presented and then she gets new information like, oh,

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Speaker 2: your father had affairs with young men and it recontects

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Speaker 2: memories right that she has, she understands them differently. But

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Speaker 2: as something that we've talked about a lot on this

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Speaker 2: show is we get to see her processing through the

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Speaker 2: grief over his death in ways that are quote unquote

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Speaker 2: not normal. So for one, she gets really angry when

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Speaker 2: I can't remember it's the priest or the person presiding

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Speaker 2: over the funeral like pats her shoulder and she wants

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Speaker 2: to like rip his arm away. She throws like their

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Speaker 2: flags put on his grave at one point when she

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Speaker 2: comes to visit and she throws them away, little flags.

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Speaker 2: And then when someone asked her about it, how are you,

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Speaker 2: and she's like, oh, my dad died, and she says

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Speaker 2: it really upbeat, is kind of laughing, and he's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's funny, that's weird, and she's like, no, he actually did,

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Speaker 2: and she starts laughing, And that's just how she reacts

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Speaker 2: to it. But it does, I mean, it is presented

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Speaker 2: in a way even through the literature she cites through

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Speaker 2: it where it's absurdist. Almost his death is kind of absurdist,

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Speaker 2: especially when she was raised in the fun home, this

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Speaker 2: funeral home, and that did make your kind of cavalier towards.

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Speaker 3: Death, right.

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Speaker 5: I think it's interesting too that she uses death as

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Speaker 5: it intertwines through the entire book, and it's not just

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Speaker 5: the father's death. We're talking about the death in literature.

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Speaker 5: So she talks about those things so many times in

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Speaker 5: comparison to her father and an author that he left

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Speaker 5: that died, or something that happens within the book that.

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Speaker 1: HiT's right on the head again.

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Speaker 5: Yes, the origins of fun home or funeral home, and

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Speaker 5: her own understanding of death and mortality, which she had

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Speaker 5: to grow up with at a very young age because

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Speaker 5: she was face to the face with death often, whether

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Speaker 5: it's because she had to vacuum, you know, the actual

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Speaker 5: funeral home, or whether she was had to go and

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Speaker 5: hand scissors to her father while he was embalming a body,

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Speaker 5: and the fact that she didn't know if this was

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Speaker 5: a test or not, and so she made sure to

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Speaker 5: be completely unemotional and without fear, and she felt like

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Speaker 5: that was something that she had to do in the

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Speaker 5: face of death to prove to him that she was okay,

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Speaker 5: or that she was worthy something along those lines. So

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Speaker 5: I feel like even though we do, yes, we definitely

402
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Speaker 5: talk about grief and having to grieve over or not

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Speaker 5: grieve over in the most normal, as she would like

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Speaker 5: to say, and we would not categorize anything as normal,

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Speaker 5: but quote unquote normal. In her father's death, we see

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Speaker 5: that she's had to confront it and to show a

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Speaker 5: different reaction than what we would consider normal as a child,

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Speaker 5: especially like she has that confrontation of seeing the family

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Speaker 5: that died. So he said, she called it the triple Yeah,

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Speaker 5: that came into it, and one of them was a child,

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Speaker 5: her cousin. It turns out, I believe that was her age,

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Speaker 5: and he would just show her and like this is

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Speaker 5: his broken neck and just having to look and identifying

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Speaker 5: like yeah, there he is, and moving on without any fear,

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Speaker 5: without any real emotions to it. So I find that

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Speaker 5: interesting that she puts that as part of the string

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Speaker 5: throughout the entire book, that yes, we're talking about someone's

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Speaker 5: specific death, but also there was death, whether it's also

419
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Speaker 5: death and identity, whether we're talking about her mom who

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Speaker 5: had to give up so much, or her dad who

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Speaker 5: had to closet his own orientation or whatever whatnot.

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Speaker 1: It is kind of like oking is.

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Speaker 2: Here, yeah, yeah, And that is probably one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest themes in the book as well, which we're definitely

425
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Speaker 2: going to delve into more later, but of the almost

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Speaker 2: preference for fiction and living in a kind of absurdist world,

427
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Speaker 2: and that fits that very well, and just the idea

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Speaker 2: Allison's grandmother lives in the fun home and you know,

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Speaker 2: if there's somebody living there that you knows not long

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Speaker 2: for this world perhaps, and it's just like those blurring

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Speaker 2: line of life and death. And then her dad went

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Speaker 2: through this very after he died. He ended up being

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Speaker 2: embalmd at his own the funeral home that he worked at, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so there's a lot of layers in that way. And

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Speaker 2: then yes, there is this ambiguous nature of his death

436
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Speaker 2: of did he kill himself? If so, why was it

437
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Speaker 2: something he planned in advance? And Allison is always trying

438
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Speaker 2: to find clues to find meaning in that, like if

439
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Speaker 2: he had underlined a sentence in a passage, or he

440
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 2: was the same age as f.

441
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 3: Scott Fitzgerald.

442
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: Plus he remnus a couple of weeks when he died,

443
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 2: just like trying to find all these things to give

444
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: it some sort of meaning because there was no note

445
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 2: or anything.

446
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 3: He just got hit by a sunbeam bread truck was she.

447
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 5: Menture to point out, I did find it interesting when

448
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 5: she brings out the narrative of seeing the snake when

449
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 5: they went camping, and then she was like, maybe he

450
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 5: saw a snake and he jumped back, because that's what

451
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 5: the truck driver or the motorist said that.

452
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 1: He was across the road. I think was fine. All

453
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: of a sudden he jumps back, So no one really.

454
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 5: Knows because he was doing what he loved, gardening, which

455
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 5: is apparently something that he does almost impulsively throughout her life.

456
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 5: And she sees it, whether it's they're playing game, he

457
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 5: sees something wrong with the garden, so you must fix

458
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 5: it immediately, and that's what he was doing.

459
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 1: So it's kind of interesting to.

460
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 5: Hear her talk about that because like, maybe it really

461
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 5: was an accident. Maybe it was the snake that's scared him,

462
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 5: and we just don't know.

463
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's the pain, the uncertainty, not

464
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 2: that either is necessarily better, but especially in terms of

465
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 2: people in this context who love to give meaning or

466
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 2: to read these books, and they even if it is

467
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 2: absurdist ultimately, which is the word I keep come back to,

468
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: but she uses it a lot throughout this that it

469
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 2: has weight, so you're always trying to find that the story,

470
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 2: the thread, and even the fact that it feels so

471
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: strange to be talking about this because this is a

472
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 2: real person, right and we're referring to her with her

473
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 2: first name, but it's a real person. But it's also

474
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 2: like a fictional almost a fictional world she created to

475
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 2: make sense of all of this, right, Yeah, So I

476
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 2: did want to read a couple quotes. Maybe I'm trying

477
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: to render my senseless personal loss meaningful by linking it, however,

478
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 2: posthumously to a more coherent narrative, a narrative of injustice,

479
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 2: sexual shame, and fear of life considered expendable. And I

480
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 2: think that's a very human trait. I think in my case,

481
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: I always want to think about, like horror movies.

482
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 3: I think that's a.

483
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 2: Very you know, if I hadn't done this then, or

484
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: if this person hadn't done this, they'd still be a

485
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 2: lot to day. And it feels like you're giving meaning

486
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 2: to your choices that if you do the right things

487
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: you'll be fine, or if you do the wrong things.

488
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: And these are like heavy right wrong quotes, but you know,

489
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: like that then there's some sort of punishment that happens,

490
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: and that makes us feel better because it makes us

491
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: feel like we have more control over things.

492
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: Right.

493
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: And then there's another story that her grandmother, Allison's grandmother

494
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: used to tell the children, and it was a story

495
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: about her father being very young and getting stuck in

496
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: the mud and not being able to get out and

497
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: having to be rescued, like pulled out.

498
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: By an older man.

499
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 2: And after he dies and Allison is thinking she's hard

500
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: for her to imagine him in the ground rotting, she says,

501
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: stuck in the mud for good this time, or she

502
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: thinks that right, Yeah.

503
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I do love that she and her brothers love

504
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 5: these stories because it makes her dad so human and fallible,

505
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 5: as where you know, the man that she sees at

506
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 5: that point in time is seeking perfection in everything and

507
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 5: everything must be beautiful and pristine, and so for hard to

508
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 5: imagine that he was a stuck be in mud, see

509
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 5: having to be unclothed and naked and being taken care of,

510
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 5: and such a whole thing for her that she's like

511
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 5: what and humanizing and that she just loves it as

512
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 5: if it's a fairy tale.

513
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I think you know, not to get

514
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: too deep. But I feel like he was kind of

515
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 2: stuck in the mud for most of his life, right,

516
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 2: because he couldn't really move on or accept himself fully,

517
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: and he really wanted to present this certain persona and

518
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: it made him and everyone else around him unhappy.

519
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 3: So it was like being stuck, right.

520
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 5: And yeah, you mentioned about the fact that about Fitzgerald

521
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 5: and in the parallels in his death kind of the

522
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 5: age and the upbringing and kind of that whole level,

523
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 5: like his love for these books. I know Ulysses ended

524
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 5: up being his most read and most loved book, but

525
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 5: he also really absolutely loved Fitzgerald's books and made sure

526
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 5: to talk about it on a consistent basis.

527
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: Apparently. I think that's how he I won't say seduce, but.

528
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 5: Seeks a long conversation with younger men is by handing

529
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 5: out Fitzgerald's books a lot of the times. But the

530
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 5: fact is, like she sees the similarity, like he kind

531
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 5: of wanted that life, and he understood that life of

532
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 5: being hidden and wanting to become someone different and being

533
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 5: something so grandiose.

534
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: And big.

535
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 5: And I think she also talks about comparing him to

536
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 5: Robert Redford and from the movie when they saw it

537
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 5: as a family that like, I always talk about it

538
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 5: as if he made a little more sense when she

539
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 5: watched this movie and I'm like, yeah, I could get that.

540
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 5: M h.

541
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

542
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 2: So we did want to talk about the sexual orientation

543
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: and coming out aspect of this too, because yes, the

544
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: damage of being caoseted on both her father and the

545
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: family is something that Allison examines throughout, but also wondering

546
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: if it would.

547
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: Have been better or not if it was different.

548
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: She recognizes she would not exist for one or probably wouldn't,

549
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: and speculated that maybe he wouldn't have lived much longer

550
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: due to the AIDS epidemic, which you do see like

551
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 2: on newspapers and stuff throughout news about that. Here's another quote.

552
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: I suppose that a lifetime spent hiding one's erotic truth

553
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: could have a cumulative renunciary effect. Sexual shame is in

554
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: itself a kind of death. So, like you were talking

555
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: about Samantha about the multiple layers of death in this book.

556
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: And then when Allison does send the letter to her

557
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: parents and then kind of gets this not what she

558
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 2: was expecting reaction, but also this bombshell or revelation her

559
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 2: about her dad. She has these feelings of being upstaged

560
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: by this news and then his death, and wondering if

561
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: coming out to your parents crossed it or was part

562
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: of the cause of why he did it, because she

563
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: seems pretty convinced that he did take his own life

564
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: right and still trying to put that her experience into

565
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 2: a cohesive narrative, wondering if the repression, ultimately it would

566
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: have been better for her family and herself after all,

567
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: like because and it's so kind of heartbreaking because when

568
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: this happens, she's like, well, I hadn't really had sex

569
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: with any a woman yet, questioning all of the stuff,

570
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: which makes sense to in response to how they reacted

571
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: to the news.

572
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I did love though, as she talks about in

573
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 5: later parts of the book, and she does the hindsight

574
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,479
Speaker 5: of them spending time together, and with the fact that

575
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 5: her mother just kind of outrights as well, he's had

576
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 5: affairs with young men for blah blah blah. So she

577
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 5: starts asking and was like, oh, oh, so trying to

578
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 5: probe at her dad, and then the revelation about and

579
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 5: we're gonna talk about gender roles in a second, but

580
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 5: like they had a flipped idea of what they wanted

581
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 5: and why this conflicted with each other so much, and

582
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 5: then also kind of explaining who he was, and then

583
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 5: through the love of books and the recommendation and showing

584
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 5: themselves to each other without telling each other who they are, like,

585
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 5: you see a lot of that unfolding, and it is heartbreaking.

586
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 5: As it becomes a point that they are actually communicating

587
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 5: through their own special way, it kind of still falls apart.

588
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: So it's definitely a big part of that.

589
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 5: And again, just we were talking about just trying to

590
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 5: identify when she sees a delivery person and she identifies

591
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 5: with her because she's dressed, as they want to say,

592
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 5: but very very masculine, and she suddenly feels like she's

593
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 5: not alone. But her father also realizes this, and that's

594
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 5: kind of one of the big narratives again at the

595
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 5: look Back, he keeps saying, yeah, I kind of knew, Yeah,

596
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 5: I kind of knew, Yeah, I kind of was there.

597
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 5: He witnesses this and realizes that she is going to

598
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 5: have a really difficult life like him. When he talks

599
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 5: about the fifties in comparison to that day that she

600
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 5: was present and even then it still wasn't easy.

601
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: We know that the eighties and nineties were not easy.

602
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 5: But for him we be like, you know, in the

603
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 5: fifties that wasn't even thought of, that was very looked

604
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 5: down on, and just kind of that reminiscence with her

605
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 5: when they talk about that moment of her.

606
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: When he asked, do you want to dress like her? Yeah,

607
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: that's that who you want.

608
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 5: To be, and she's just like, uh, obviously my answer

609
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 5: has to be no.

610
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're like giving me no space for any other

611
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 3: I know.

612
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And she's pretty young at this point when this happens,

613
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: but like jumping way ahead, when her and her dad

614
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 2: are trying to have a conversation after she's come out,

615
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: they're going to the movies and they're having this really

616
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: stilted conversation which is beautifully illustrated and I read like

617
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: a breakdown of why it's so good because it makes

618
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: you sit with every panel of silence. It did remind

619
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: me of recent topic we talked about, which is parentification,

620
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: because Alison feels more like the parent in this exchange

621
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: when her father finally starts to open up to her

622
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: a little bit about his homosexuality. She's the one that's

623
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: trying to be supportive and feels like she can't share

624
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: her experience but wants to hear his, and that moment

625
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: he does seem very childlike and like he's never spoken

626
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: out loud about this before, perhaps so especially not with

627
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: people and his family, right, and so vulnerable, and then

628
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: it shuts down very quickly and the conversation just fizzles out, right.

629
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, Honestly, her whole coming out at her parents'

630
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 5: reaction I thought was interesting because her mother was upset

631
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 5: and didn't want to talk to her, didn't want to

632
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 5: even acknowledge what was happening. And I'm sure this may

633
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 5: have triggered her and everyone just knowing what she was

634
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 5: going through with her own husband.

635
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: And the dad is like, great experiment, did you partake?

636
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 5: Alrgie like it was his reaction, just thinking it was

637
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 5: not necessarily because he knows it's not just the stage,

638
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 5: but that's how he's been seeing it in his mind,

639
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 5: so he will fulfill things in the dark, to fulfill

640
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 5: his desires in the darken and in secret and hope

641
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 5: it passes. But it never does obviously, so he's wondering

642
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 5: just what she's doing or you're having, you're experimenting, like

643
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 5: I do? Great right, but that's not really are you really?

644
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 5: It still was like questioning. I thought that was an

645
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 5: interesting take as for the man like reacting for the

646
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 5: way he reacts to himself to her, who is obviously

647
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 5: very open at this point, and I thought that was

648
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 5: again really well put out by her.

649
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: It was reality. It was what happened.

650
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 5: The fact that you know, he had to be like,

651
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 5: your mother's busy, she's kind of too upset to talk

652
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 5: right now, she's still processing.

653
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: It was still part of the reaction.

654
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And that's one of those situations where.

655
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 3: It kind of.

656
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 2: Sucks because, yes, the mother is dealing with Helen has

657
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 2: this pain from what she knows about her husband, so

658
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: she she is.

659
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 3: Reacting that way.

660
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: And then yeah, Bruce is like very much reacting to

661
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: how he thinks he is. And then she Allison has

662
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 2: kind of didn't know this was a thing, right and

663
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: was just like, you know, trying to come out and

664
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: maybe the way she did it had this kind of

665
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: like vision of how it would go and instead it

666
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: kind of and you can't really blame everyone, but it

667
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 2: kind of became a very selfish thing, right.

668
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah.

669
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: Really did.

670
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I also think like we can't go without

671
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 5: mentioning the fact that, yeah, her dad's pathological tendencies, the

672
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 5: fact that he went for young boys and even soliciting

673
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 5: with buying minors beer, and that was his only charge

674
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 5: with that whole But we know, but we know why

675
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 5: this is happening, and it's very sad because you you

676
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 5: have so many aspects of feeling sorry for people and

677
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 5: really understanding that this is a hard time. But at

678
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 5: the same time you're like, yeah, but we can't excuse this.

679
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 5: This is not a thing and she and she kind

680
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 5: of does the same thing of like, I'm not excusing this.

681
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 5: This is what happens. We know what happened, we just

682
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 5: don't talk about it and.

683
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: Kind of that way. But I'm and she, I'm sure,

684
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I didn't read this.

685
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 5: If that she had any backlash from her family for

686
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 5: revealing is saying.

687
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: Out loud, was you know when everybody's been keeping quiet.

688
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 5: So it's kind of, oh, I wonder how that went down,

689
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 5: because when family secrets happen, it's not pretty, but it's

690
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 5: also offensive for the victims or those who have been

691
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 5: affected to ignore it as well and pretend like it no.

692
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 5: It was a thing, and obviously was a thing, as

693
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 5: she would pinpoint each time when there was like this

694
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 5: dude helped us, and she would always say things like

695
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 5: this dude helped us clean out the basement, this dude

696
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 5: helped us with you know, they were all young students

697
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 5: of his, which we've talked about as many times. Is

698
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 5: obviously a power play and is inappropriate, So we can't

699
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 5: ignore those conversations either. And though it is a black

700
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 5: cloud in the family, she didn't shy away from it

701
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 5: for sure.

702
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

703
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's also the whole sequence where they're in

704
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 2: New York and your younger brother, yeah, like goes not missing,

705
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 2: but uh, it's just painted in a way where you're like,

706
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: if this had gone differently, right, like almost putting her

707
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: father in that same box.

708
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: But then he is fine with.

709
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: It, Like once the situation is resolved, he like goes

710
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 2: out on the town.

711
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 5: Right, but he's very aware, yeah, of what can happen

712
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 5: and who can come after him, And it says yeah,

713
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 5: it definitely says a lot.

714
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

715
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 2: My ex boyfriend gave me this book of untranslatable words,

716
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: and one of them in there translates to the family

717
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: secret that everyone knows what everyone refuses to talk about

718
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: oh yeah, which is yeah, that's a great word. But

719
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 2: that kind of reminds me that kind of part of

720
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: this mm hmm. We do have some more themes we

721
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: want to discuss, but first we have one more quick

722
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:30,919
Speaker 2: break for word from our sponsor and we're back, Thank

723
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 2: you sponsor. So, yes, we did want to talk about

724
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 2: gender roles in this book because we do see instances

725
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 2: of dressing in gender nonconforming clothes. So Alison did that

726
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 2: with a friend of hers where they were kind of

727
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: playing dress up and her friend wanted to do something

728
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 2: else and she's like, no, this would be way more fun.

729
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: Let's sis up in men's clothes.

730
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: And she asked her dad to get her a measured

731
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: shirt and he said like, we'll have to measure your

732
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: yes meaning breast, and she was like okay, no, never mind.

733
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, Alison felt like she needed to fill the

734
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: space of masculinity her father didn't, while her father wanted

735
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 2: to express femininities through her, putting them forever at quote

736
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: cross purposes, a war of cross purposes.

737
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 5: I think I do love the scene in the car

738
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 5: when they had that revelation and when she's just when

739
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 5: I was younger. I wanted to be in dresses. I

740
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 5: wanted to dress like a girl. She's like, I wanted

741
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 5: to dress like a boy. Like she says it so excitedly,

742
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 5: but then it goes quiet, right, because comes down to

743
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 5: because the realization comes down to the fact that, yeah,

744
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 5: they were really at odds with each other because they

745
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 5: were envious of the other, which but we also saw

746
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 5: as Alison grows up, she is giving him advice on

747
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 5: what kind of suit he needs to wear, what kind

748
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 5: of things invests that he needs to look at, and

749
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 5: he's like, you're you're right, you know, understanding that that okay.

750
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

751
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 5: At the same time, she's having the battle of not

752
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 5: wanting to wear a stupid burrett, but he is insistent

753
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 5: that she must throughout to the point that it comes physical,

754
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 5: and she's like, why is this is dumb?

755
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: I don't want it.

756
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 5: I just want a crew cut. She literally says, I

757
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 5: would rather have a crew cut. And I find that

758
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 5: interesting and just that level of it's not necessarily that

759
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 5: trying to make sure each of them have a defined gender,

760
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 5: but that the fact that the other wish that bet

761
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 5: were that gender.

762
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think there's a lot of shame there

763
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: for him of himself. But also I do believe he

764
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: really thought he was trying to protect her because he

765
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: was afraid of how society would treat her if she

766
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: didn't hide herself like he did. But also there's a

767
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: lot of instances of him living vicariously through her throughout.

768
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: And one of the one of the scenes that sticks

769
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 2: out in my head is when she's coloring and as

770
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: a kid, and he takes a gun book and starts

771
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: coloring in it because he's like, I can do it,

772
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,760
Speaker 2: I can do it better. And there's just a bunch

773
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: of instances of that too, So you can definitely see

774
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: like him trying to live through her and be feminine

775
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 2: through her, but it's not what she wanted and it's

776
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 2: not when she felt.

777
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 3: Or who she was.

778
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: And then there's Alison kind of observing her mom having

779
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: to clean the house, cook the food, raise the kids,

780
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 2: and especially when there's a scene where Alison and her

781
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 2: mama at a table and her mom is speaking to

782
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 2: her as an adult for the first time, it was

783
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: kind of like I hate doing this that, like I

784
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: hate cleaning this stupid house and it's his house, Like

785
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: I don't want to do it and having that moment.

786
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: They didn't want to live in this museum. Yeah exactly, Yeah, Yeah.

787
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 5: I think it's interesting because she, again we know that

788
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 5: at the same time she was continuing on with her education,

789
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 5: was having to defend her paper, as she's doing plays,

790
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 5: and she's trying to do all of these things. She's

791
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 5: trying to be the support of wife that goes to

792
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 5: court with him, all of these different levels. But I

793
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 5: also find it interesting at the beginning of the relationship

794
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 5: with her mother, Helen and Bruce, that it becomes a

795
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 5: little explosive and she realizes what she's kind of getting into,

796
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 5: even though at the beginning it was all poetry and

797
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 5: love stories and all of these things, and calling her

798
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 5: a crazy bitch when she didn't want to do something

799
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 5: or question something or was confused about something, or when

800
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 5: he would go out and do things that was obviously

801
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 5: against their marriage, as in he was having an affair

802
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 5: no matter what gender, she was having an affair and

803
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 5: bringing in different types of heartaches to her that when

804
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 5: she would get upset that he would call her a

805
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 5: crazy bitch. It was mentioned a few times, or she

806
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 5: would just kind of give up and just be like, Okay,

807
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 5: and just kind of do her own thing in her

808
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 5: own world, and that included doing those plays that she

809
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 5: love and doing it to her best, including memorizing everybody

810
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 5: else's lines so she didn't flub one line at all.

811
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and that kind of goes back to that

812
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: the whole fiction aspect that is in this of people

813
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 2: choosing to live in these fiction worlds more than reality.

814
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: And yeah, like you said some that that broke my

815
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 2: heart to you and it described her. Alison described her

816
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: picture as dull, like she had just been dulled so

817
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: much from like when they first got married to several

818
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 2: years later.

819
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 3: But yeah, that was.

820
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: Kind of one instance where at least felt to me

821
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: that Alison was observing this between her parents and was

822
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: like the gender roles of her mom having to do

823
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: this stuff, did it necessarily make sense to take click

824
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: and then just wanted to mention there is a whole

825
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 2: segment of Alison getting her first period and trying so

826
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: desperately to hide it.

827
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 5: I do love her things of trying to figure out

828
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 5: when she needs to say it. She's like not now,

829
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 5: not now, and even talking about the suite that as

830
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 5: meticulous as she was and as factual as.

831
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: She was for her journaling and diary.

832
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 5: They were she did not write it out or she

833
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 5: was cowed through the entire time until she finally does,

834
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 5: and her mom's reaction but non reaction. She talked about

835
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 5: her mom starts shaking, so I've been like, I don't know,

836
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 5: I didn't exactly know what that meant, but obviously it

837
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 5: was a big deal enough that she was trying not

838
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 5: to react, but she was reacting, and I found that

839
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 5: super interesting, as well as the fact that asking her

840
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 5: are you cramping? Which I feel like, yeah, I think

841
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 5: for her as a mother, she's just trying to find

842
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 5: out that she's in pain. And I was like, that

843
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 5: makes sense. That makes sense because I had extensive amounts

844
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 5: of pain from cramps and my mother understood it and

845
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 5: try to take care of me as much she could.

846
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: But yeah, that was her only reaction. Do you need

847
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: more pets? Are you cramping?

848
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 3: Yep?

849
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is kind of a anti climactic because Alison

850
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 2: had been hiding it like this is going to be

851
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: such a huge deal, which it is, but her mom

852
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 2: was kind of like, oh, so we wanted to wrap

853
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: this up with art because we've been talking about that

854
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: art and how the fiction aspect and trying to find

855
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 2: a narrative have been just present throughout this. There are

856
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 2: so many literary references f Scott Fitzgerald, Dames Choyce, Marcel Proust,

857
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 2: Kate Millet. The list goes on and on. And this

858
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: is one thing I related a lot to communicating with

859
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 2: your dad through art. We weren't great at communicating, but we.

860
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 3: Did love movies.

861
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 2: He loved movies and I loved movies, and he would

862
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 2: send me movies when I was in college, and that's

863
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 2: what we would talk about. To a lesser extent, books.

864
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,479
Speaker 2: He was also extremely poetic and would do the same

865
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: thing where he would underline things or he would quote

866
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 2: things to me all the time, which I in his

867
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 2: relationship with my mom, he would write her poetry. It

868
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 2: was very similar in that, like very artistic and almost

869
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: presentation of here's my perfect family. And I'm not necessarily

870
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 2: sure that's what he really wanted, but it's what he

871
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 2: thought he wanted and it's what he wanted to present

872
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: to people. He was very much similar in this whole

873
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 2: kind of vein of quoting things and asking you to

874
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: read things or see certain movies or things like that.

875
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 3: And I do think. I don't know. I just really

876
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 3: related to that. I really related to.

877
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 2: That whole thing where it's almost easier to build this

878
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 2: fiction world or to use this fiction world to try

879
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: to have a conversation that might be difficult or that

880
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: you don't feel certain in communicating with the other person, right, And.

881
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you're not the only one. People who

882
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 5: feel disconnected from their parents find a common ground. And yeah,

883
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 5: you were talking about living vicariously. One of the main

884
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 5: things in college. One of the biggest things that really

885
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 5: helped them communicate was her taking classes with literature and

886
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 5: of course having to actually take a class about ulysses

887
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 5: and having to sit and listen to her dad. Of

888
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 5: course she got to the point that she got tired

889
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 5: of it, But the fact that they were living vicariously

890
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,919
Speaker 5: is through each other to really be in love with something,

891
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 5: or be able to discuss something, or be able to

892
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 5: understand something in such depth and perception, or maybe just

893
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 5: too too much or like a mom calmed down.

894
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: I did love her. She's like, calm down, I think

895
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: you're okay.

896
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 5: Then it later transfers as the Kate Millet and the

897
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 5: fact that her dad is like, oh my god, and

898
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 5: doing the same thing. She talks about how he had

899
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 5: left that book for her, and then the vice versa.

900
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 5: She had left that book for him, and he is

901
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 5: so enthralled and loving something new, something brand new, and

902
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 5: it is because of her knowing who he was through literature,

903
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 5: and I think that was beautiful.

904
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: That is their biggest connection.

905
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 5: Also her understanding of his death, Like that's one of

906
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 5: the biggest ways that she was able to connect to

907
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 5: his death. Whether it was by suicide or not, it

908
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 5: was through literature, Like the whether she's underlining something or

909
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 5: he's underlying something, or he's loving a character. She has

910
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 5: some kind of commonality with these books to connect to

911
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 5: him and his death. And I think it is a

912
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 5: very beautiful way of understanding him, especially with something that

913
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 5: he loved. It's it's a bigger point of like, it's

914
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 5: not something that I love, it's something that he loved.

915
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 5: And and of course his whole library. The fact that

916
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 5: he was able to give her ten thousand books, it

917
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 5: was so excited And I get that way too.

918
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: I don't know about you.

919
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 5: When someone is interested in something I like and then

920
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 5: starts asking me questions, I start pulling out references. Here,

921
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 5: you go do this. You need to do this, you

922
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 5: need to look at this. I mean that kind of

923
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 5: love and level of you're able to see me is

924
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 5: a beautiful thing, and it's through this art. Of course,

925
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 5: I don't think anyone understood his art and love through

926
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 5: his house. That seemed like a point of contention for

927
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 5: all of them, But she still understood what he was

928
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:34,280
Speaker 5: getting towards.

929
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that is something you can understand something about

930
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: someone based on, especially if they're really passionate about a

931
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 2: certain character. For my dad, my dad loved to kill

932
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 2: Mocky Bird and he loved Atticus Finch, and he was

933
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 2: a lawyer and he represented people who couldn't afford to

934
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: represent themselves. And just knowing that, like you know something

935
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 2: about that person. And it was kind of like funny

936
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 2: sad to me of the where she went to college

937
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 2: and she's like, I never take English again because her

938
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 2: father was trying so hard to live vicariously through her.

939
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 2: My dad was kind of the same, but I was like, no,

940
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: I'm never going to be a teacher, and so I

941
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 2: shut it down, I guess, but.

942
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 3: I connected with that as well.

943
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:23,879
Speaker 2: Something else I did find interesting is which we've been

944
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 2: talking about but I thought it was interesting that not

945
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: only does this book examine memory and the failings of

946
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 2: memory or how it can get recontextualized, it also talks

947
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 2: about recontextualizing art and mistranslating art. There's a couple of

948
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: examples she gives where she talks about like I think

949
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: this is a mistranslation, like from French to English or whatever.

950
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: Are her father using Albert Camus and his thoughts on suicide,

951
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 2: but ultimately the thoughts on suicide it's absurd, like choosing,

952
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: picking and choosing and recontextualizing happening.

953
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 3: Not only in memory and in our real.

954
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 2: Lives, but also in art that we do consume, which

955
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 2: does inform our real lives, which.

956
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:06,320
Speaker 3: I thought was really interesting.

957
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 2: And then one of the things that I think we

958
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 2: should come back and talk about later is the power

959
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 2: of images, because that's not necessarily discussed in this but

960
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 2: it is a part by nature of it being a

961
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: graphic novel. That's why most people, including Alison Bechdel, think

962
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: this has been the target of so many banning and

963
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 2: censorship efforts because it's I think she says something like

964
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 2: I guarantee you there's more things in there that have

965
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: way more gay.

966
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 3: Sex than this.

967
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 2: But this is illustrated, this art and you can see it, right,

968
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 2: So that's why it made people so uncomfortable, which I

969
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: think is worth returning to.

970
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 3: In the future.

971
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 2: And then I just I did want to talk briefly,

972
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 2: I mean, just to mention of this whole idea that's

973
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 2: present of Daedalus and Icarus of Acres flying two Coas's sun,

974
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: but Allison is kind of constantly making comparison to that.

975
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 2: But Allison's father was there to catch her in her

976
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: memory of jumping off the diving board, which is I

977
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: thought it was really sweet and well done, and uh

978
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 2: it makes her you know, question, is there somebody to

979
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: catch him right, right? Or had he been like just

980
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 2: all these years waiting right?

981
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was really touching. It was touching.

982
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, And you know, she actually did talk about the

983
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 5: fact that the mistranslation and learning new things after the

984
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 5: book was released, and she talked about the fact that

985
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 5: she's like, oh, Ill, you know, there's so many things

986
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 5: that I'm like, oh, that makes more sense, and yeah,

987
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 5: it would have changed that perspective of the book had

988
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,240
Speaker 5: I known these things. But I'm glad I didn't because

989
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,720
Speaker 5: it makes it more honest from me, but I felt

990
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 5: like that was such an interesting idea. It's like, there's

991
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 5: so many things that we don't know behind pictures.

992
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 2: You know.

993
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 5: You and I've talked about this before, and I've talked

994
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 5: about it with so many people recently that we don't

995
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,240
Speaker 5: know what has happened through the generations of our families,

996
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 5: so we don't see the true stories, and oftentimes because

997
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 5: they're our parents or were connected with them on an

998
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 5: everyday basis, we don't think to ask. We just assume

999
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 5: we know. And then when people start asking and you're like, oh,

1000
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 5: I didn't know that about you what? It changes so

1001
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 5: much perspective later on, It could change the whole book

1002
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 5: in general, the whole novel in general, to like, I

1003
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 5: wouldn't want to change that, but there's definitely new things

1004
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 5: that I have learned that I'm like, wow, you know,

1005
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 5: and I feel like that's something to note because of course,

1006
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 5: as we go into any kind of conversation about our

1007
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 5: own past and our families past, there's so much that

1008
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,959
Speaker 5: we mess out and how things get mistranslated or even

1009
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 5: just left out altogether.

1010
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: And I think it makes it interesting.

1011
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I hadn't

1012
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 2: read that from her, but that is that is really interesting. Well,

1013
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 2: clearly a lot to talk about. Very highly recommend this

1014
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 2: book you have not read it, and as always we

1015
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 2: love getting book recommendations from you. Listeners can send them

1016
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: to our email. It is Stuff Media, Momstuff at iHeartMedia

1017
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 2: dot com. You can find us on Instagram at Stuff

1018
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 2: I've Never Told You, are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast.

1019
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 2: Thanks as always start a super producer, Christina, thank you

1020
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 2: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told

1021
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 2: You the direction of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1022
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

1023
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 2: to favorite shows.