Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 1: And this is Sarah hart Unger.
Speaker 3: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger.
Speaker 3: On the side, we are two working parents who love
Speaker 3: our careers and our families.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds.
Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,
Speaker 2: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping
Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get
Speaker 2: the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2: In this episode, I am going to be interviewing Farnush Torabi,
Speaker 2: who is a personal finance expert and is also the
Speaker 2: author of the brand new book Healthy.
Speaker 1: State of Panic.
Speaker 2: She's broadening her subject matter with this book, looking at
Speaker 2: how our fears and the things that we are feeling
Speaker 2: trepidation about can be a clue to how we should
Speaker 2: live our lives. That this is something we can look
Speaker 2: into and get to know more about ourselves. And rather
Speaker 2: than this like no fear whatsoever, kind of ridiculousness, you know,
Speaker 2: actually there's a good place for this, and it's a
Speaker 2: healthy state of panic. I guess is how she would
Speaker 2: put it. So we're looking forward to that interview. But Sarah,
Speaker 2: do you follow any personal finance type people, and you
Speaker 2: know we could share some of our favorites on this episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Podcast wise, I have a fair number of slightly financial
Speaker 3: themed I love How the Money, which we've had those
Speaker 3: guys on our podcast before. I especially love their Friday
Speaker 3: episodes where they just go through like news in the
Speaker 3: financial sphere and just kind of talk about it. They
Speaker 3: have a really nice rapport. And I love Planet Money
Speaker 3: and The Indicator, which is kind of like a subset
Speaker 3: of Planet Money. And it's funny because like, I wouldn't
Speaker 3: have thought those would be interesting topics, and yet almost
Speaker 3: every episode is like fascinating in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 3: So those are like my biggest financial podcasts, I would say.
Speaker 3: And then I think we both really enjoy the Frugal
Speaker 3: Girls blog, who we've also had on the podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she has an awesome blog, anyone who hasn't checked
Speaker 2: that out yet, thefrugalgirl dot com documenting her adventures cheerfully
Speaker 2: living on Less. And she's recently started nursing school, which
Speaker 2: is very exciting that she went back to do a
Speaker 2: lot of college classes and get her nursing degree in
Speaker 2: her mid forties as her children have grown up and
Speaker 2: moved out. And I think that's really fun to hear
Speaker 2: about how people do start careers at different parts of
Speaker 2: their lives. And so she's very inspiring with that and
Speaker 2: also got really cool recipes, so all good stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we like how to money.
Speaker 2: The thing is, I don't really you know, I often
Speaker 2: listen to these things, not for like, here's how you
Speaker 2: you know, here's what an index fund is, or here's
Speaker 2: you know what you should be putting in your four
Speaker 2: to one K or something like that. I mean, I
Speaker 2: feel like I've got that down. But I like thinking
Speaker 2: about the philosophy of money because so much about it
Speaker 2: that relates to time. I mean they're both limited resources
Speaker 2: and how you can optimize them in different ways and
Speaker 2: what they can enable when you use them in certain ways.
Speaker 2: So you know, although they're obviously trade offs, that sometimes
Speaker 2: too that you can spend time or spend money. And
Speaker 2: you know, on this podcast, we're often telling people consider
Speaker 2: spending money because people often spend their time in ways
Speaker 2: that you know, you can't get the time back.
Speaker 3: I was just thinking about, like I used to be
Speaker 3: really really into the fire scene. Like I went through
Speaker 3: a big fire phase fire being financial independence, retire early,
Speaker 3: and have gradually gotten less excited about the concept. I've
Speaker 3: also noted that I think a lot of the fire types,
Speaker 3: as the market cooled and inflation went up.
Speaker 1: Got a little quieter.
Speaker 3: And then I also feel like a lot of them
Speaker 3: are really big into hardcore real estate investing, which I'm like,
Speaker 3: that can turn into your whole job, and like, honestly
Speaker 3: the kind of job I would hate, So it's.
Speaker 1: Rather practice medicine, right, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: It's gotten a little bit murky for me, but I
Speaker 3: still find the concept interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that was always the funny thing for
Speaker 2: me with reading the fire people, because many of them
Speaker 2: are like, Yay, I've achieved financial independence. I don't have
Speaker 2: to work anymore, And then they work in a way
Speaker 2: that is very much like you and I work. Right,
Speaker 2: When people have podcasts or they write books, or they
Speaker 2: hold courses or they have a newsletter or whatever about
Speaker 2: their life where they're not working, I'm like, but that's work.
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, we're activities that are generating income are work.
Speaker 2: Work is not defined as stuff you don't like doing. Right,
Speaker 2: that is not the definition of work. I mean, that's
Speaker 2: not retirement. That's you know, you switch careers, which is awesome,
Speaker 2: But I think that could be a goal for many people,
Speaker 2: like have enough of a financial cushion that you can
Speaker 2: switch careers to something you enjoy.
Speaker 1: Like, I think that's excellent advice. But that's a.
Speaker 3: Little bit different than total digression. But I tell people
Speaker 3: I work full time, but I work part time. It's
Speaker 3: a bit and part time as a podcaster and writer,
Speaker 3: and like then they're like, oh, like, because I think
Speaker 3: some people would be tempted to say, oh, I went
Speaker 3: part time to like work on my podcast.
Speaker 1: But I know what my calendar looks like, and.
Speaker 3: I do not work part time.
Speaker 2: No, no, not at all. This is in fact work.
Speaker 2: We have a business, as does Furnish. So she's gonna
Speaker 2: talk to us about a healthy state of panic and
Speaker 2: her life and her work in general.
Speaker 1: So we are looking forward to that.
Speaker 2: Well, Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Farnush to
Speaker 2: Rabi to the program. So, Farnush, can you introduce yourself
Speaker 2: to our listeners.
Speaker 4: Yes, happy to thank you so much for having me
Speaker 4: on your show. You and I've known each other for
Speaker 4: many years. Laura and I have been working in the
Speaker 4: personal finance advice space for about twenty years. Through that time,
Speaker 4: I've written books, I host a podcast called so Money,
Speaker 4: and my latest book is called A Healthy State of Panic,
Speaker 4: which is part memoir, part guidebook on how fear can
Speaker 4: be a friend. We've often been told that fear is
Speaker 4: something we need to fight, and I don't know about you,
Speaker 4: but I've never really been able to be fearless, like
Speaker 4: completely fearless, like the world is a scary place. So
Speaker 4: it's a more honest take on how fear has been
Speaker 4: helpful to me and so many other people. And you
Speaker 4: can too, yeah, And you can't.
Speaker 2: Do exactly All books eventually have to have that, and
Speaker 2: you can too, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you have two children, correct, Yes.
Speaker 4: I have a daughter who's six and my son is nine.
Speaker 2: Excellent, excellent, And so you actually you're raising kids yourself now.
Speaker 2: But one of the things you talk a lot about
Speaker 2: in your book is your own childhood and growing up
Speaker 2: in an Iranian immigrant family, and I wonder if you
Speaker 2: could just talk a little bit about how that experience
Speaker 2: contributed to how you view the world.
Speaker 4: My parents taught me to be hyper vigilant. We're not
Speaker 4: the family that sort of felt like we could just
Speaker 4: take chances. My parents, Just to give them the background,
Speaker 4: they immigrated here from Iran in the late seventies with
Speaker 4: the backdrop of the revolution happening in Iran. Their plan
Speaker 4: was not to stay in America forever. Their plan was
Speaker 4: just to come so that my dad could get his
Speaker 4: education and then they would move back. In the middle
Speaker 4: of all that, I'm born in Worcestern, Massachusetts, and the revolution,
Speaker 4: and then on top of that, the hostage crisis and
Speaker 4: so much else going on, they didn't feel like it
Speaker 4: was an appropriate time to go back. And fortunately they
Speaker 4: were able to stay. It wasn't like, oh, let's just
Speaker 4: stay because we can. They needed to find my dad
Speaker 4: needed to find a work sponsor, basically to sponsor his
Speaker 4: visa and staying that was really hard, but one person
Speaker 4: did and the rest is history. We never went back
Speaker 4: to Iran to live. My parents have visited. I never
Speaker 4: actually visited, except when I was very, very, very very young.
Speaker 4: I don't remember. But all this to say that when
Speaker 4: they were given the opportunity to stay in America, they
Speaker 4: really took that as a huge luck, a huge opportunity
Speaker 4: that they did not take for granted, and as a result,
Speaker 4: they didn't really push the envelope when they were here,
Speaker 4: Like they weren't like, Okay, let's risk a lot, or
Speaker 4: let's allow our daughter to just kind of like become
Speaker 4: one with the Americans. You know, they'd really felt as
Speaker 4: though they wanted to protect their culture, but also they
Speaker 4: were scared. You know that as Iranians in America in
Speaker 4: the eighties, it was not kumbaya, right. It was a
Speaker 4: lot of rejection and I think, like a lot of
Speaker 4: immigrants for the first time in America, there is a
Speaker 4: culture clash, and they didn't really trust the Western ways
Speaker 4: of child rearing. You know, like, wait, we're going to
Speaker 4: just drop off our kid at a house and she's
Speaker 4: going to sleep over all night, like not in her
Speaker 4: own bed. That was very foreign to them and very uncomfortable.
Speaker 4: So I wasn't allowed to do a lot of the
Speaker 4: things that my friends could, talking to boys on the phone, sleep,
Speaker 4: a lot of socializing stuff I didn't get to participate
Speaker 4: in that didn't involve you know, parental supervision and things
Speaker 4: like that. And so they raised me just to be
Speaker 4: really cautious, and I think I in some ways, well,
Speaker 4: I would have loved to have gone to a few
Speaker 4: more sleepovers than I did. I do appreciate that they
Speaker 4: taught me early on that the world isn't going to
Speaker 4: be always embracing of all the things that you want
Speaker 4: to do, and that you should still work hard, you
Speaker 4: should get an education, you should have self accountability, but
Speaker 4: at the end of the day, you have to prepare
Speaker 4: for uncertainty, which they were intimately aware of all that,
Speaker 4: Like they knew that their all life was so uncertain
Speaker 4: in the beginning, and so things like loneliness and rejection
Speaker 4: and uncertainty and fearing those things were very much a
Speaker 4: part of my upbringing. And I think, as an adult
Speaker 4: woman trying to navigate a male dominated industry like finance,
Speaker 4: being the breadwinner in my marriage, which is not you know,
Speaker 4: as a woman, that's still a foreign role, and all
Speaker 4: of that, I think becoming much emotionally mature around those fears,
Speaker 4: I think set me up for success and we can
Speaker 4: get into it. But I don't look back at my
Speaker 4: childhood as like, oh, don't feel bad for me. You know, yes,
Speaker 4: I had sort of a more insulated and guarded childhood,
Speaker 4: but as a result, I got really intimate, and I
Speaker 4: had an early relationship with fear, which helped me as
Speaker 4: I got older. There was a sort of there had
Speaker 4: to be a reckoning at some point, Like my fears
Speaker 4: interrupted a lot in my childhood, Like I was the
Speaker 4: kid that would overreact in her fears with her fears.
Speaker 4: As adults, we can't do that. So we have to
Speaker 4: find a way to sort of see that fear eyed eye,
Speaker 4: understand what the wisdom is potentially in that fear, what
Speaker 4: it wants to protect or help us protect, and then
Speaker 4: go do the thing. And that's where the book really
Speaker 4: arrives for readers. It's like, you're afraid, you still want
Speaker 4: to go do something really exciting or different or uncertain.
Speaker 4: Here's how you can use your fears and listen to
Speaker 4: your fears to go still do that thing, but with
Speaker 4: more confidence because you have understood the fears. You know
Speaker 4: what the fears want you to protect, and how to
Speaker 4: create maybe a different roadmap for yourself so that you're
Speaker 4: going to go do that scary thing, but while still
Speaker 4: valuing what your goals are and what's important to you
Speaker 4: and your risk tolerance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well let's talk about that, because I mean we
Speaker 2: hear a lot about conquer your fears or you know,
Speaker 2: feel the fear whatever, and you talk about making fear
Speaker 2: your friend. So let's talk a little bit about that metaphor,
Speaker 2: Like when what does it mean to make fear your friend?
Speaker 4: It means that you have a relationship as opposed to
Speaker 4: a combative relationship. You have a relationship where you know,
Speaker 4: you're understanding that fear potentially has arrived with a purpose,
Speaker 4: and you're still the adult in the room. You're still
Speaker 4: in control of this relationship. As adult, I think we
Speaker 4: undermine our ability to manage our emotions. We think that
Speaker 4: we are going to be overwhelmed and flooded and sunk
Speaker 4: and by our emotions, Whereas I think, you know, all
Speaker 4: it takes sometimes is recognizing what the emotion is and
Speaker 4: deciding what you're going to do with it. What are
Speaker 4: you going to allow for this fear to like, You're
Speaker 4: going to give it space, But you are still in
Speaker 4: control of this relationship. And that's really the friendship, you know,
Speaker 4: where even in real friendships, like there's a balance of
Speaker 4: power sometimes and there's a give and take sometimes, And
Speaker 4: I think that's important to remember. I'm a journalist, you're
Speaker 4: a curious person. What I always say is when fear
Speaker 4: shows up, ask it questions, have a dialogue that's part
Speaker 4: of the friendship. Have a conversation like where did you
Speaker 4: come from? What do you want me to protect? Are
Speaker 4: you real? Because sometimes fears are not you know, their fiction,
Speaker 4: or maybe they are other people's fears that we've decided
Speaker 4: to or maybe unconsciously subconsciously kind of inherited and allowed
Speaker 4: to take up space in our lives. These are important
Speaker 4: things to recognize, and fear is really, I think, sometimes
Speaker 4: a reflection of who we are, which sometimes our friends
Speaker 4: are too. You know, who you choose to have as friends.
Speaker 4: There's a reason for that. And the reason that maybe
Speaker 4: you have certain fears is because of the way you
Speaker 4: were raised, your tendencies, your risk tolerances, all of that.
Speaker 4: So fear tells a story about who you are sometimes.
Speaker 4: Again why it's important I think to have patience with
Speaker 4: our fears, not always. And the book doesn't talk about
Speaker 4: all the fears all the times in every situation, must
Speaker 4: honor them. No, we talk about nine different fears that
Speaker 4: I find typically come up when we are at life's
Speaker 4: big crossroads pertaining to things like money, relationships with our
Speaker 4: partners and friends and ourselves and our careers, and when
Speaker 4: you're afraid of things like loneliness or rejection, or money
Speaker 4: or failure or uncertainty. And these are some of the
Speaker 4: chapters in the book, and fear shows up. I think
Speaker 4: these are the times when we really do want to
Speaker 4: face them and befriend them. And again, not because we
Speaker 4: necessarily have to take them along for the journey, but
Speaker 4: because maybe there's a moment to stop and realize there
Speaker 4: is some information that this fear wants to relate to
Speaker 4: me that can be really, really useful to me as
Speaker 4: I'm about to make a high stakes decision. We don't
Speaker 4: want our decisions to backfire, and fear can sometimes be
Speaker 4: a compass to help us navigate life's maze.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of those maze aspects and one that's
Speaker 2: you don't get into until later in the book. But
Speaker 2: I know, since your personal finance expert, let's talk about
Speaker 2: fears around money, Like, what are some of the most
Speaker 2: common fears people have about money, and particularly maybe you
Speaker 2: can go into some of those that you might have
Speaker 2: been telling yourself.
Speaker 1: Over the course of your life.
Speaker 4: I like to talk about the fear of not having
Speaker 4: enough This comes up so much in my conversations with
Speaker 4: people and on the podcast. Often people write in like
Speaker 4: do I have enough to retire? Will I have enough
Speaker 4: to buy a house? Will I ever have enough to
Speaker 4: support my family? I'm thinking about maybe starting one. And
Speaker 4: sometimes that question and that fear around that question is real,
Speaker 4: Like it's because you don't make enough and the world
Speaker 4: is expensive and childcare is expensive, and so when that
Speaker 4: fear comes up, I think it's legit, and it's important
Speaker 4: to sort of understand, well, what are the holes that
Speaker 4: I may need to possibly fill. You know, there's just
Speaker 4: some basic math sometimes that has to equate. So if
Speaker 4: certain things cost certain things and you're not making enough
Speaker 4: and you want for those things, then it's a matter
Speaker 4: of either adjusting how much you make or your approach
Speaker 4: to what you're paying for and maybe changing some of
Speaker 4: your goals. And that's a personal decision. But when that
Speaker 4: fear shows up, sometimes it is a real fear, and
Speaker 4: it's because of just the economics of the world that
Speaker 4: we live in. But often I find that when we
Speaker 4: fear this not having enough, it's pointing at something much deeper.
Speaker 4: The fear really wants you to maybe take a step
Speaker 4: back and realize that you're focused exclusively on income and
Speaker 4: the cost of things and not also recognizing the other
Speaker 4: assets that you may have that in their totality make
Speaker 4: you rich, or you would maybe think twice about do
Speaker 4: I have enough? Because I, for example, lost my job
Speaker 4: in two thousand and nine during the recession, and I
Speaker 4: definitely had a lot of these fear musings like, oh
Speaker 4: my gosh, you know, how am I ever going to
Speaker 4: afford anything anymore? I've lost my income and I was
Speaker 4: afraid of not having enough to pay my mortgage. I
Speaker 4: was afraid of not having enough to cover my gap
Speaker 4: and employment. Who knows when I'm going to find another job?
Speaker 4: And what I find is that when we have the
Speaker 4: fear of money, it's often dovetailed with the fear of uncertainty.
Speaker 4: Money and uncertainty. There's sort of like these two peas
Speaker 4: in a pod. And one of the exercises in the
Speaker 4: book about when you're fearing financial uncertainty around sort of
Speaker 4: challenge in your life is to do this inventory of
Speaker 4: all these assets that you have that go beyond money,
Speaker 4: that are rich. And in that moment in two thousand
Speaker 4: and nin when I lost my job, I can't go
Speaker 4: back and beg for my job, although I would have,
Speaker 4: although they wouldn't have given it back to me. I
Speaker 4: couldn't get back my title, my income, my health insurance.
Speaker 4: I could not reverse the subprime mortgage debacle, none of that.
Speaker 4: So when you have the fear of financial uncertainty, the
Speaker 4: fear wants you to protect your sense of control. So
Speaker 4: what can you control? What can you leverage in your
Speaker 4: life that is a tool, is an asset to get
Speaker 4: you to the next place with more confidence. And for me,
Speaker 4: it wasn't necessarily money, although I had a little bit
Speaker 4: of savings, but mostly it was my ability to strategize.
Speaker 4: I was creative. I had a body of work. I
Speaker 4: had a book recently that I'd written, which was a
Speaker 4: platform that I hadn't really given. I haven't really looked
Speaker 4: at it like that until really I was in this
Speaker 4: moment of having to restrategize. I had a network of
Speaker 4: relationships professional and personal that could help me. I had
Speaker 4: my mental health. I had a support system. These are
Speaker 4: little things and in there, as you combine them, and
Speaker 4: as you look at them and you reflect on them,
Speaker 4: you're like, oh my god, I can actually maybe do
Speaker 4: some things that previously scared me. But now I know
Speaker 4: I have a backup, I have a system, and so
Speaker 4: for me, the next best move financial move wasn't to
Speaker 4: try to find a full time job. They didn't exist
Speaker 4: at the time. Actually, sometimes the best decisions are the
Speaker 4: ones that are made for you. I was like, I'm
Speaker 4: going to freelance and I'm going to hustle, and I'm
Speaker 4: going to offer myself up as a consultant and as
Speaker 4: a contributor, and I'm going to envision ideas for other
Speaker 4: companies and pitch them. And I didn't score home runs
Speaker 4: all the time, but I got enough home runs, and
Speaker 4: those revenue streams ultimately created a business for me. Later
Speaker 4: that year, I incorporated. And so you know, all this
Speaker 4: to say that when you're fearing financial uncertainty and what
Speaker 4: if and what if and will I have enough? I
Speaker 4: think it's important to take inventory not just your financial
Speaker 4: hard assets like your savings and your investments, but also
Speaker 4: these other intangible things that priceless that can be tools
Speaker 4: for you in stepping into your next opportunity that are certain,
Speaker 4: Like you can lay me off, but you can't lay
Speaker 4: me off for my ambitions. You can't lay me off
Speaker 4: for my all the my rolodex of friends and professional
Speaker 4: network that will be there for me no matter what
Speaker 4: when everything is And that's an assignment for all of
Speaker 4: us listening, Like, imagine you do hit rock bottom. What
Speaker 4: are the things that endure, the assets, the resources that remain.
Speaker 4: I mean, I interviewed somebody in the book who was
Speaker 4: a victim of Bernie Madoff's billion dollar ponzi scheme, and
Speaker 4: so she was left with zero savings, all her money
Speaker 4: and her husband's money gone from a phone call that
Speaker 4: they got, like you're just done, and she's like, I
Speaker 4: went through. She went through all the grief and all things,
Speaker 4: but she was like, I'm focused exclusively on what I've lost.
Speaker 4: I need to focus on what I have still included
Speaker 4: her home. But also you know, she was a writer
Speaker 4: and she had written many good books, and she was like,
Speaker 4: I'm going to write again because I know that's gonna
Speaker 4: be my way out of this. I got to just
Speaker 4: start writing. And she actually wrote about her experience being
Speaker 4: swindled and all of that and eventually recouped some of
Speaker 4: the money and like, but her work in that fear
Speaker 4: of like oh my god, doom and gloom was I'm
Speaker 4: going to have to focus on what I can control,
Speaker 4: what has endured, and what I can still leverage so
Speaker 4: that I can get out of this, because nobody wants
Speaker 4: to stay stuck. That's not what the fear wants you
Speaker 4: to do. The fear wants you to protect yourself, which
Speaker 4: means getting out there and doing something else, to move
Speaker 4: on and find success somewhere else.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we're going to take a quick ad
Speaker 2: break and then we're going to be back with Farnws
Speaker 2: sharing a little bit more about women and money in particular.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, I am back with Farnush Tabi, who
Speaker 2: was the author of the brand new book A Healthy
Speaker 2: State of Panic, which is about leveraging your fears to
Speaker 2: achieve success. But before Farnush wrote that book many years ago,
Speaker 2: she also wrote a book called When She Makes More,
Speaker 2: which is about women breadwinners.
Speaker 1: So this is a fear as well.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people are still very uncomfortable
Speaker 2: with the idea of women being breadwinners in relationships, and
Speaker 2: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that,
Speaker 2: like why people have that fear, because I know it's
Speaker 2: something that a lot of listeners of this show have
Speaker 2: been dealing with.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, And I include some of those stories in
Speaker 4: the new book, A Healthy State of Panic. Those were
Speaker 4: coming up a lot for me as I was writing,
Speaker 4: and it's true. We fear what we don't understand. We
Speaker 4: fear what we don't know. And even in twenty twenty three,
Speaker 4: as we've evolved and relationships of all shapes and sizes,
Speaker 4: you know, there's still a lot of resistance to this
Speaker 4: idea of a woman making more than a man in
Speaker 4: their relationship. And a Georgetown study recently even concluded that
Speaker 4: across all gender, race identity, men, women, everyone's uncomfortable. But
Speaker 4: like most people are like, wait a minute, huh, how
Speaker 4: does this work? And again, because we haven't been exercising
Speaker 4: this much, you know, this is a new phenomenon. The
Speaker 4: traditional model, the economic model in a male female relationship
Speaker 4: is such that he makes more. And that's what we
Speaker 4: have become. That's what we have trusted for so long,
Speaker 4: that's what sort of our society has built around for
Speaker 4: so long, and so it is a new thing. And
Speaker 4: I think that for men and women who are in
Speaker 4: this dynamic, they may have arrived with this without that expectation.
Speaker 4: In my book, I talk often to women and men
Speaker 4: who For those that were extremely challenged by it is
Speaker 4: because maybe they arrived in their marriage expecting the other formula,
Speaker 4: expecting him to make more, and so there is a
Speaker 4: lot of fear, and the fear is rooted in can
Speaker 4: this even work? A lot of fear of rejection, as
Speaker 4: I also experienced as the breadwinner initially my mother my
Speaker 4: culture as an Iranian American, like this was not culturally normal,
Speaker 4: as it isn't even in America, but especially in the
Speaker 4: Middle East, and so there was a lot of sort
Speaker 4: of doubt as far as like would this even work
Speaker 4: out for her? And what does this say about my
Speaker 4: husband and me? And I just thought that it was unfair,
Speaker 4: but I thought, Okay, I got to write about this.
Speaker 4: But yeah, there's a lot of fear around women breadwinners.
Speaker 4: And I think it's again because we're just not used
Speaker 4: to it. We haven't seen a lot of evidence either
Speaker 4: as to how this can actually be a thriving relationship,
Speaker 4: which is partly why I wrote the book. I wanted
Speaker 4: to identify these successful couples and talk about how they
Speaker 4: were working through and thriving with this sort of new
Speaker 4: economic shift in paradigm.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so I mean, what do the healthy relationships do?
Speaker 2: I mean that, you know, because I know people have
Speaker 2: a lot of fears about it. I mean between women
Speaker 2: still going to have to do all the household work
Speaker 2: or that men will feel emasculated. I mean, I know
Speaker 2: there's a lot of fears of things like infidelity and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. O way, it just yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: it not happens, and of course it happens, but it
Speaker 2: happens in other couples too.
Speaker 1: But it's like, I mean, how does that wind up
Speaker 1: being healthy?
Speaker 3: Then?
Speaker 1: What are the habits of those healthy relationships?
Speaker 4: Well, foundationally, I think couples who are successful in this
Speaker 4: economic paradigm realize that they cannot attach their contributions in
Speaker 4: the relationship to their gender expectations, like we have general
Speaker 4: expectations in our society. To adopt them in your relationship
Speaker 4: is very dangerous to say that, well, because you're the man,
Speaker 4: you exclusively have to be the one who makes most
Speaker 4: of the money, and as the woman, you exclusively are
Speaker 4: the one who's going to be in charge of all
Speaker 4: the housework. That's very dangerous for all couples. And I
Speaker 4: think when you're in a relationship where now she makes
Speaker 4: more and now she's also expected to do all the
Speaker 4: housework as well, which happens. You know. We looked at
Speaker 4: a study that saw that when she makes more, she
Speaker 4: actually does more housework than a woman who makes less
Speaker 4: because she's trying to overcompensate in that department. Making more
Speaker 4: almost makes her feel less feminine sometimes, and it's very psychological.
Speaker 4: This is a lot of just over the years, generations,
Speaker 4: eons of like social conditioning. It's really hard to unwire
Speaker 4: and unwind from that. But recognizing this is really important
Speaker 4: if you're finding yourself even subconsciously consciously falling into these
Speaker 4: gender roles in your marriage and you're like, but I
Speaker 4: don't even like to cook, or I'm not even I
Speaker 4: don't have the time, you know, you have to get
Speaker 4: really honest about that. And the couples that were most
Speaker 4: successful just did what they were each best at, what
Speaker 4: they each wanted to do, and if there was leftover
Speaker 4: that neither wanted them wanted to do, they outsourced it,
Speaker 4: which sounds like a rich couple's problem. But you can
Speaker 4: outsource a lot for not a lot. These days, there's
Speaker 4: a lot that you can outsource things to automations and technology.
Speaker 4: You can barter with your neighbors and your you know,
Speaker 4: if you want to, you can barter childcare like women
Speaker 4: would say, and men would say, we would swap babysitting
Speaker 4: nights with our neighbors, and so that gave us like
Speaker 4: free nights in some ways and didn't cost anything. But
Speaker 4: you got to get creative. But the bottom line is
Speaker 4: that foundational. You cannot assign contribution roles in your relationship
Speaker 4: based on the gender. And there's a lot we can
Speaker 4: learn from same sex couples actually around this, because this
Speaker 4: is not an issue for them. Maybe they have other
Speaker 4: issues in their relationships, but this is not something that
Speaker 4: comes up right because how could it. And they literally,
Speaker 4: like I interviewed some same sex couples, you know, how
Speaker 4: they devise their to dos in their relationship comes down
Speaker 4: to just who wants to do it, who's best at it,
Speaker 4: who has a time. The other thing I think is
Speaker 4: really important to be conscious of is that when you
Speaker 4: make more, whoever you are in the relationship, that doesn't
Speaker 4: mean that your time is more important than the other person.
Speaker 4: And I find this to be a conflict, not just
Speaker 4: in same couples that make disparate income, where she makes more,
Speaker 4: he makes more. It's just, you know, we tend to
Speaker 4: think that, well, if I make more than I have,
Speaker 4: maybe more of a say in the relationship, or my
Speaker 4: time is more important. Not I mean so many times,
Speaker 4: even just earlier this year, I was in conversation with
Speaker 4: a mom and she's a teacher and her husband, it
Speaker 4: works in sales, and so she makes less than he,
Speaker 4: but she was conflating that with his time is more
Speaker 4: valuable than mine. And so when we were trying to
Speaker 4: get together for a mom's night out, she bailed at
Speaker 4: the last minute because she said, oh, I didn't realize
Speaker 4: my husband a meeting tonight, and you know, I only
Speaker 4: make a teacher salaries, so I can't really like interfere
Speaker 4: with his work schedule. And I was like, ooh, yeah,
Speaker 4: let's I'm sorry, but you're a teacher. You have an
Speaker 4: incredibly important job, and I would argue more important than
Speaker 4: someone in corporate sales. Like I don't know, I just
Speaker 4: think that that's that's an ongoing debate and it's not
Speaker 4: worth the time to decide, like both of your times
Speaker 4: are important, and I think together you need to come
Speaker 4: up with a better way of managing your hour.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like figuring out ahead of time who is not
Speaker 2: available on any giff competition.
Speaker 4: And so I think that you know so all that's
Speaker 4: really important, I think to recognizing that just because you
Speaker 4: make less in the relationship or no money, it doesn't
Speaker 4: mean you cannot be a significant contributor to a relationship,
Speaker 4: because there's so much else that makes the world go
Speaker 4: around when you're a family unit, things like food management
Speaker 4: and taking care of the house, and taking care of
Speaker 4: your social calendar, and providing emotional support and like the
Speaker 4: also like logistical support, and so thinking about when there
Speaker 4: are these changes in your relationship in terms of who's
Speaker 4: making what and you as the person maybe making less
Speaker 4: or feeling less than, you need to have a conscious
Speaker 4: conversation and a real plan, a new plan for how
Speaker 4: each of you is going to contribute in a way
Speaker 4: where you both feel equally important to the overall well
Speaker 4: being of the family. And that is going to evolve
Speaker 4: over time, maybe even within your financial life. If you're
Speaker 4: making less, it doesn't mean that your financial contributions are
Speaker 4: less because we earning is just one piece of the pie.
Speaker 4: There's also the managing of the money. There's the conscious
Speaker 4: spending of the money, there's the investing of the money.
Speaker 4: And so what I found too in couples that were successful,
Speaker 4: if like let's say she's making more of the income,
Speaker 4: he might be the one who is working with the
Speaker 4: accountant and looking at the monthly budget and they're doing
Speaker 4: it together, but he's more involved. I think in every
Speaker 4: household there is sort of naturally one person who gravitates
Speaker 4: more to the money stuff. That doesn't mean the other
Speaker 4: person's baring their head in the sand, but that person's
Speaker 4: maybe more of the day to day money manager or
Speaker 4: month to month money manager. And that's an important role.
Speaker 4: In my own marriage. I make more, but my husband's
Speaker 4: more of the saver. So I use more of my
Speaker 4: income to pay for our overhead and costs, and I
Speaker 4: of course save and invest. But for my husband, you know,
Speaker 4: he contributes exclusively to the kids' college funds. He provides
Speaker 4: the vacation money. And so looking back, like this is
Speaker 4: stuff that has a couple, you want to decide on
Speaker 4: what would make you feel what contributions do you want
Speaker 4: to make financial in the relationship. You could be more
Speaker 4: of the saver and then you can look back and go,
Speaker 4: I helped send our kids to college. It's not a
Speaker 4: small thing. Even as you were the one maybe making
Speaker 4: less income. So these are the things that I talk
Speaker 4: about in the book, These sorts of negotiations and plans
Speaker 4: that you can make within the relationship so that each
Speaker 4: person feels like an equal contributor, financial contributor, household contributor,
Speaker 4: emotional contributor, all of it, even though there is this
Speaker 4: disparate income within the relationship.
Speaker 3: Got it?
Speaker 2: So I wanted to pivot more to Farnusha's life here.
Speaker 2: I mean, we now know that your husband's the safer,
Speaker 2: you're more of a you know, you're the breadwinner in
Speaker 2: your household. But let's talk about what a day to
Speaker 2: day life looks like in your your household these days,
Speaker 2: so too school age kids.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I can just give you the hour
Speaker 4: by hour hour.
Speaker 1: Sure, let's hear it.
Speaker 4: Well, we usually wake up around seven am. We are
Speaker 4: not super early risers in our house, but seven am.
Speaker 4: I'm not a morning person. Seven am is even hard
Speaker 4: enough for me. We get our kids up and we
Speaker 4: do the whole hour to hour and a half routine
Speaker 4: of like breakfast, brushing teeth, getting dressed, maybe catching up
Speaker 4: on some homework, and then we hit the bus and
Speaker 4: then from like eight thirty to nine. I do a
Speaker 4: little bit of emailing my own I work from home.
Speaker 4: My husband also works from home. That's basically always been true,
Speaker 4: even before the pandemic, maybe not so much as it
Speaker 4: is now. And plus we also move to the suburbs
Speaker 4: during the pandemic, so we're pretty home bound. I go
Speaker 4: into the New York City area once or twice a
Speaker 4: month for some meetings, but primarily at home, and I
Speaker 4: run a podcast. I do a lot of zoom calls
Speaker 4: with clients and gosh, running errands, loading the dishwasher. Like
Speaker 4: the whole day is just sort of this like a
Speaker 4: lot of personal and professional in a work day. But
Speaker 4: basically I like to get a workout in usually between
Speaker 4: the hours of nine and ten in the morning, and
Speaker 4: then from ten till about four four thirty. It's a
Speaker 4: lot of work and calls and podcasting mixed in with
Speaker 4: like maybe I'll take a shower, maybe I'll go pick
Speaker 4: up some dry cleaning, maybe i'll you know. I do
Speaker 4: a lot of my grocery shopping online. I rarely hit
Speaker 4: the grocery store anymore unless it's for last minute things.
Speaker 4: And our kids are at school until about five. We
Speaker 4: they do an after school program. So we used to
Speaker 4: have full time childcare, which for parents who have young
Speaker 4: kids who are paying for childcare right now, I'm going
Speaker 4: to tell you, there's a there's a whole world where
Speaker 4: they go to school and then maybe the school has
Speaker 4: an after school program and it's public, so that cost
Speaker 4: goes away. And so that's been hugely helpful for us,
Speaker 4: which means that I don't have to work like a
Speaker 4: crazy person anymore to make money to pay for all
Speaker 4: the things to have my kids be taken care of.
Speaker 4: And I don't regret, you know, I don't regret like
Speaker 4: having work so much when they were littles littles, but
Speaker 4: I think it has afforded me now the ability to
Speaker 4: kind of take a little bit of a step back
Speaker 4: and not have to do all the things and be
Speaker 4: there for my kids when they come home and make dinner,
Speaker 4: which I like to do. And so when they get
Speaker 4: home around five five point thirty, by then they've already
Speaker 4: done their homework at school, so now we can really
Speaker 4: just like have dinner and play and they can read
Speaker 4: or whatever, watch a little TV. That's kind of our evenings,
Speaker 4: and then I go to bed around eleven because usually
Speaker 4: between their bedtimes at eleven, I'm catching up on some
Speaker 4: extra emails and things like that, but that's basically it.
Speaker 4: And now I've launched a book, so it's been a
Speaker 4: little bit more hectic, throwing in like book events into
Speaker 4: all the mix and some travel. So that's not going
Speaker 4: to happen every week, but it's been an especially busy fall.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so quick question. Were you ever scared of or
Speaker 1: had fears of?
Speaker 2: I don't know if we like to scared of public
Speaker 2: speaking and flying start to that they're but you have
Speaker 2: to do them, you know, and all the time.
Speaker 4: I mean, I have a big talk I'm doing at
Speaker 4: the end of the month and it's a new keynote,
Speaker 4: so I'm going to be giving it for the first time,
Speaker 4: and I'm always nervous, and I don't think that's a
Speaker 4: bad thing. I think I was actually just talking about
Speaker 4: this on my own podcast, that having this fear of
Speaker 4: public speaking, it's not the fear of having the confidence
Speaker 4: to speak on stage. It's more of the all the
Speaker 4: things that I have to be kind of aware of
Speaker 4: while I'm on stage, my slides, my movement, my delivery,
Speaker 4: you know, and so to that extent, if I'm afraid
Speaker 4: of those things. The fear is telling me to prepare
Speaker 4: as best I can, you know, get there an hour early,
Speaker 4: scope out the room. I just reached out to the
Speaker 4: event holder and I say, can you send me a
Speaker 4: picture of the room, because I'm like, want to No,
Speaker 4: am I going to be on a stage? Am I
Speaker 4: just going to be? Like?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 4: I just? More information is more information. It's never not
Speaker 4: enough to prepare yourself for that stuff, because it just
Speaker 4: makes you're setting yourself up more for success. Not to
Speaker 4: say things could still go or wrong, but at least
Speaker 4: you've done everything you can to prepare. And that's really
Speaker 4: what fear. That's the gift, you know. That's it's not
Speaker 4: like listen to your fear so everything can work out
Speaker 4: all the time. It's so that you can go and
Speaker 4: do the thing with more certainty, knowing that the world
Speaker 4: could still upend things, but that you did everything you can.
Speaker 4: You're on the other side of that experience, knowing that
Speaker 4: you respected your goals, your values. You you did it
Speaker 4: with integrity, and you did it prepared, and you did
Speaker 4: it maybe even a little bit still scared, but you
Speaker 4: still did the thing.
Speaker 1: You still did the thing. You felt the fear and
Speaker 1: did it anyway exactly as they say. Yeah, all right, well.
Speaker 2: Furnish this is great. We always end with a love
Speaker 2: of the week. I can go first to give you
Speaker 2: a sec to think about it. I am actually wearing
Speaker 2: some warm, fuzzy socks and now I realize I really
Speaker 2: needed to write down the name of what they were.
Speaker 2: But it always comes back to like Amazon. I swear that,
Speaker 2: you know, because I go online. I'm like, I'm out
Speaker 2: of socks. All my socks have holes in them, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, I would like some warm wool socks. And
Speaker 2: I go on and I search, and then you know,
Speaker 2: thanks to the beauty of online reviews, I can tell
Speaker 2: that there's some pair, some set that's like not very
Speaker 2: expensive but has like thousands of five star reviews, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm on it. I'm on it, and you
Speaker 2: know they're there the next day and they're great.
Speaker 4: Well, the power of the Amazon review. This is what
Speaker 4: I'm trying to get everyone to do, is like, please
Speaker 4: leave a review for my book, because once I hit
Speaker 4: a thousand reviews, the book will just sell in perpetuity
Speaker 4: and I'll never have to do another podcast or reel again.
Speaker 4: Although I would always come back.
Speaker 1: To your podcast.
Speaker 4: But of course, my favorite thing this week is and
Speaker 4: I encourage everybody to do this. I've been going through
Speaker 4: some old boxes and I have come across a lot
Speaker 4: of old photos of myself, of my kids. I just
Speaker 4: found the sonogram of my babies when they were in
Speaker 4: my tummy. I showed them this morning. They were like, Mom,
Speaker 4: your tummy is so ugly. I was like, okay, looks
Speaker 4: like autogram. What is going on in your stomach? It's
Speaker 4: so weird. But I think that that for me has
Speaker 4: been really special this week. I've framed some of these
Speaker 4: photos and now they're in front of me, and so,
Speaker 4: you know, just go through some old boxes. You know
Speaker 4: you might enjoy the process and seeing a photo of
Speaker 4: yourself when you were a little kid. This is an
Speaker 4: important thing to have at the forefront all the time,
Speaker 4: because why else are you doing the things that you're doing.
Speaker 4: If you're ever doubting anything, remember who you were as
Speaker 4: a kid. Don't let that kid down. If you're worried
Speaker 4: about public speaking, if you're worried about doing the next
Speaker 4: thing and taking a chance, like you know, I always
Speaker 4: think about myself as a kid and how scared I was,
Speaker 4: and how scared of ever actually realizing my potential. I
Speaker 4: was so do it for her, you know, and sometimes
Speaker 4: having that actual visual reminder is so helpful. And we'll
Speaker 4: keep you going.
Speaker 1: Absolutely the Fieldo's photos are pretty cute too, right, thank cute? Yeah, exactly?
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thank you so much for coming on Furnished.
Speaker 2: Let our listeners know again the title of the book
Speaker 2: and where they can find you.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Laura. The book it's called a
Speaker 4: Healthy State of Panic, and you can find it at
Speaker 4: a healthystateopanic dot com. I love being on Instagram too.
Speaker 4: If you want to follow me there at Farnish Sharabi,
Speaker 4: I slide into my DMS. Lots of fun happening behind this.
Speaker 2: Lots of fun. All right, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2: Thanks well, that was awesome. I am a big Farnish fan.
Speaker 2: So Sarah, this question came in, she said, this listener,
Speaker 2: maybe we recognize that we might have different opinions on this, says,
Speaker 2: I'm curious how both of you approached decorating your houses
Speaker 2: for any new listener. Sarah and I both moved in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, so we've both been dealing with new
Speaker 2: house stuff for the past two years or so, She says,
Speaker 2: did you ever consider professional help or using a decorator?
Speaker 2: I know you are typically fans of outside, but decorating
Speaker 2: can end up being a very significant investment but might
Speaker 2: also lead to a greater enjoyment of a space. This
Speaker 2: person just moved, and she feels like she is wasting
Speaker 2: time on thinking about how she might decorate when she
Speaker 2: doesn't particularly enjoy it, nor does she think she is
Speaker 2: very good at it, and so she finds it quite stressful.
Speaker 1: And part of the stress.
Speaker 2: Of feeling like her house isn't finished makes her feel
Speaker 2: like she can't have people over, which is then an
Speaker 2: opportunity cost in and of itself.
Speaker 1: So would love your advice. So, Sarah, what do you
Speaker 1: have for her?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying my perspective is correct.
Speaker 3: I just want her to think outside of the box
Speaker 3: of like what might be normal and what might be
Speaker 3: possible or acceptable. But I have zero interest in this
Speaker 3: particular category. We do not have a fancily decorated house.
Speaker 3: Most of our furniture is IKEA. We replace it when
Speaker 3: it looks so bad that it's like we did take
Speaker 3: a look at the like fifteen year old brown Futan
Speaker 3: and we're like, okay, fine, it's fine. We should get
Speaker 3: other sofa from Ikia to replace it for the next
Speaker 3: decade or something.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just like not a priority for us.
Speaker 3: We want to save, we want to spend money on
Speaker 3: our kids, we want to travel, and to some extent,
Speaker 3: you can't spend out in every single category, at least
Speaker 3: not at our income level, and so we are completely
Speaker 3: happy in surroundings that have enough space and are very comfortable.
Speaker 3: I don't live in a particularly tiny home. It's like
Speaker 3: thirty five hundred square feet or something like that, but
Speaker 3: it is not decorated in any way, shape or form. However,
Speaker 3: I have people over all the time, and I've never
Speaker 3: once had someone be like, ugh, your house is like
Speaker 3: not decorated, so I don't want to come or something
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 1: Hang out with you.
Speaker 3: Sarah like, yeah, we had book club yesterday. I mean
Speaker 3: we have plenty of space. I have a folding table
Speaker 3: that I can put a tablecloth if I need a
Speaker 3: big table. We've had many a party here. In fact,
Speaker 3: I would say I host more than I get invited
Speaker 3: to things. Maybe I don't get invited because they're so
Speaker 3: offended by our house that. But I would just push
Speaker 3: back on the idea that you need like a fancy
Speaker 3: house because if your friends are going to judge you
Speaker 3: by like what your home looks like, I mean, and
Speaker 3: then they're not people I would particularly want to hang
Speaker 3: out with.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And by the way, I have high standards when it
Speaker 3: comes to being like clean, so like I want the
Speaker 3: house to be organized and not cluttered, and like people
Speaker 3: actually commented yesterday because it had happened to be the
Speaker 3: day we had our house cleaned. Anyway, wow, your house
Speaker 3: is so clean, but nobody said, like, but the furniture
Speaker 3: is not stylish.
Speaker 2: Just the furniture is for my kiya. I can't be
Speaker 2: friends with you, Yeah, I think that is. Anyone who
Speaker 2: said that is not somebody you want to be friends
Speaker 2: with anyway, So I say you shouldn't. These are separate
Speaker 2: questions like can you have people over? Absolutely, you should
Speaker 2: have people over. I remember we had we had some
Speaker 2: people come stop by to see our house when we
Speaker 2: had just moved in, and so everything was like full
Speaker 2: of box I mean literally that day, like the movers
Speaker 2: were like getting stuff out. I had just like given
Speaker 2: them the tip, like you know, they were coming over
Speaker 2: and it's fine. Like if they're your friends, they enjoy
Speaker 2: your life and they enjoy you, and so I mean
Speaker 2: as long as you have like a chair for them
Speaker 2: to sit on. Like so if you literally have no furniture,
Speaker 2: you might want to at least get some folding chairs,
Speaker 2: But as long as you have a clean bathroom and
Speaker 2: somewhere for them to sit, most people are going to
Speaker 2: be pleasant enough. If they are people you want to
Speaker 2: have in your life. Now, that is a different question
Speaker 2: than decorating. I actually think this person is a prime
Speaker 2: candidate for hiring a designer for precisely what she said.
Speaker 2: You are spending a lot of money to decorate this house,
Speaker 2: and you want to spend it well, and you are
Speaker 2: recognizing that other people have an eye for things and
Speaker 2: you don't. So this is absolutely the situation where you
Speaker 2: hire a professional and it's not like you go away
Speaker 2: and come back and like the whole house is decorated.
Speaker 2: I mean, it usually doesn't work like that. I mean
Speaker 2: maybe some people do that, Like if you're decorating like
Speaker 2: a vacation home you plan to rent out and you
Speaker 2: don't really care what's in it. But if this is
Speaker 2: your obviously your primary residence, what it will be is
Speaker 2: that this person, this designer, will show you like three
Speaker 2: options based on what he or she has decided is
Speaker 2: your taste, and then you will choose from those three options. Right,
Speaker 2: And that makes it so much easier because you are
Speaker 2: not choosing from the entire universe of sofas. You are
Speaker 2: choosing between three sofas, all of which would be excellent, right,
Speaker 2: So you just choose your favorite from those or I
Speaker 2: mean the entire universe of if you're doing a whole
Speaker 2: house thing, like, you're gonna be choosing stuff like the
Speaker 2: pulls on cabinets, like what the faucets look like. I mean,
Speaker 2: all these things that you have never ever thought to
Speaker 2: care about. And it does kind of you know, there
Speaker 2: are choices that could probably look more in the way
Speaker 2: you'd like them to look, or less or you know,
Speaker 2: more feel like you want them to look or less.
Speaker 1: And again, this.
Speaker 2: Designer knows all that they know what knobs are good,
Speaker 2: and they know looking at what your taste is, and
Speaker 2: they will show you three knobs and then you choose
Speaker 2: from those three knobs and you find something you are
Speaker 2: happy with. So I think in your case, this would
Speaker 2: actually be a great way to make sure that you're
Speaker 2: not wasting money on a sofa you then hate, or
Speaker 2: a paint color that isn't what you like, or anything
Speaker 2: like that. That said, different designers get paid different ways.
Speaker 2: I would suggest looking into somebody who is willing to
Speaker 2: be paid by the hour, because then they're more open
Speaker 2: as opposed to like a percentage of the budget, because
Speaker 2: some people do a percent of like what you purchase,
Speaker 2: and usually it comes out about the same because they
Speaker 2: get discounts, like there's often too the trade discounts for
Speaker 2: like rugs and furniture and all these for most of
Speaker 2: the high end furniture stores.
Speaker 1: So if they were.
Speaker 2: Getting like I'm just throwing this out, I don't remember
Speaker 2: what the standard numbers are, but if they were getting
Speaker 2: twenty percent of the price, they're often getting between a
Speaker 2: fifteen and twenty five percent discount to the trade anyway,
Speaker 2: so it's it's kind of a wash.
Speaker 1: But the incentive then is to choose.
Speaker 2: Slightly more expensive items versus if you were getting paid
Speaker 2: by the hour, then it's the same to you if
Speaker 2: it's a relatively inexpensive couch versus a more expensive couch,
Speaker 2: and so they won't automatically feel like even if they're
Speaker 2: not consciously doing it, there's always the incentive to have
Speaker 2: slightly more expensive stuff. So I would just think, you know,
Speaker 2: it can go either way and you're probably gonna get
Speaker 2: something great regardless if you ask friends for recommendations whatever,
Speaker 2: But just throwing that out there as a possibility if
Speaker 2: you're looking for slightly more budget friendly furniture.
Speaker 1: Pieces totally makes sense.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think if you care about it, I
Speaker 3: totally agree with Laura. I just I don't know, like
Speaker 3: make sure you'd care about it, like I would totally
Speaker 3: hire a designer for clothing because I care.
Speaker 1: Yeah more, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: We all have different things we care about or even
Speaker 2: just you know, you may not care about it, but
Speaker 2: sometimes in tough roll estite markets, if you're trying to
Speaker 2: sell a house, like staging it can really help, and
Speaker 2: you know, so.
Speaker 1: You have to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, if you're going to live in a house
Speaker 3: for ten years and you're like hiring someone to decorate it,
Speaker 3: I mean most people are not hiring it because they
Speaker 3: plan on moving out in two years.
Speaker 1: I did see you write that, and I'm like, hmmm,
Speaker 1: because like, by the but that's not this person.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying like you know, you even somebody who
Speaker 2: doesn't care about it, might you know, that's a situation
Speaker 2: where you might look into it, right, if you were
Speaker 2: trying to sell something relatively.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, all right, well, this has been best of
Speaker 1: both worlds.
Speaker 2: I was interviewing Fernush Tarabi that her brand new book
Speaker 2: A Healthy State of Panic. We will be back next
Speaker 2: week with more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
Speaker 3: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life
Speaker 2: work together.