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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 2: and speaker.

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Speaker 1: And this is Sarah hart Unger.

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Speaker 3: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger.

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Speaker 3: On the side, we are two working parents who love

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Speaker 3: our careers and our families.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 2: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 2: the most out of life.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, I am going to be interviewing Farnush Torabi,

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Speaker 2: who is a personal finance expert and is also the

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Speaker 2: author of the brand new book Healthy.

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Speaker 1: State of Panic.

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Speaker 2: She's broadening her subject matter with this book, looking at

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Speaker 2: how our fears and the things that we are feeling

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Speaker 2: trepidation about can be a clue to how we should

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Speaker 2: live our lives. That this is something we can look

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Speaker 2: into and get to know more about ourselves. And rather

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Speaker 2: than this like no fear whatsoever, kind of ridiculousness, you know,

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Speaker 2: actually there's a good place for this, and it's a

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Speaker 2: healthy state of panic. I guess is how she would

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Speaker 2: put it. So we're looking forward to that interview. But Sarah,

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Speaker 2: do you follow any personal finance type people, and you

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Speaker 2: know we could share some of our favorites on this episode.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Podcast wise, I have a fair number of slightly financial

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Speaker 3: themed I love How the Money, which we've had those

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Speaker 3: guys on our podcast before. I especially love their Friday

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Speaker 3: episodes where they just go through like news in the

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Speaker 3: financial sphere and just kind of talk about it. They

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Speaker 3: have a really nice rapport. And I love Planet Money

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Speaker 3: and The Indicator, which is kind of like a subset

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Speaker 3: of Planet Money. And it's funny because like, I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have thought those would be interesting topics, and yet almost

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Speaker 3: every episode is like fascinating in some way, shape or form.

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Speaker 3: So those are like my biggest financial podcasts, I would say.

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Speaker 3: And then I think we both really enjoy the Frugal

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Speaker 3: Girls blog, who we've also had on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she has an awesome blog, anyone who hasn't checked

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Speaker 2: that out yet, thefrugalgirl dot com documenting her adventures cheerfully

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Speaker 2: living on Less. And she's recently started nursing school, which

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Speaker 2: is very exciting that she went back to do a

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Speaker 2: lot of college classes and get her nursing degree in

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Speaker 2: her mid forties as her children have grown up and

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Speaker 2: moved out. And I think that's really fun to hear

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Speaker 2: about how people do start careers at different parts of

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Speaker 2: their lives. And so she's very inspiring with that and

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Speaker 2: also got really cool recipes, so all good stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we like how to money.

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Speaker 2: The thing is, I don't really you know, I often

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Speaker 2: listen to these things, not for like, here's how you

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Speaker 2: you know, here's what an index fund is, or here's

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Speaker 2: you know what you should be putting in your four

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Speaker 2: to one K or something like that. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I've got that down. But I like thinking

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Speaker 2: about the philosophy of money because so much about it

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Speaker 2: that relates to time. I mean they're both limited resources

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Speaker 2: and how you can optimize them in different ways and

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Speaker 2: what they can enable when you use them in certain ways.

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Speaker 2: So you know, although they're obviously trade offs, that sometimes

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Speaker 2: too that you can spend time or spend money. And

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Speaker 2: you know, on this podcast, we're often telling people consider

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Speaker 2: spending money because people often spend their time in ways

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Speaker 2: that you know, you can't get the time back.

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Speaker 3: I was just thinking about, like I used to be

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Speaker 3: really really into the fire scene. Like I went through

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Speaker 3: a big fire phase fire being financial independence, retire early,

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Speaker 3: and have gradually gotten less excited about the concept. I've

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Speaker 3: also noted that I think a lot of the fire types,

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Speaker 3: as the market cooled and inflation went up.

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Speaker 1: Got a little quieter.

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Speaker 3: And then I also feel like a lot of them

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Speaker 3: are really big into hardcore real estate investing, which I'm like,

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Speaker 3: that can turn into your whole job, and like, honestly

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Speaker 3: the kind of job I would hate, So it's.

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Speaker 1: Rather practice medicine, right, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: It's gotten a little bit murky for me, but I

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Speaker 3: still find the concept interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that was always the funny thing for

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Speaker 2: me with reading the fire people, because many of them

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Speaker 2: are like, Yay, I've achieved financial independence. I don't have

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Speaker 2: to work anymore, And then they work in a way

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Speaker 2: that is very much like you and I work. Right,

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Speaker 2: When people have podcasts or they write books, or they

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Speaker 2: hold courses or they have a newsletter or whatever about

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Speaker 2: their life where they're not working, I'm like, but that's work.

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Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, we're activities that are generating income are work.

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Speaker 2: Work is not defined as stuff you don't like doing. Right,

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Speaker 2: that is not the definition of work. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: not retirement. That's you know, you switch careers, which is awesome,

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Speaker 2: But I think that could be a goal for many people,

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Speaker 2: like have enough of a financial cushion that you can

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Speaker 2: switch careers to something you enjoy.

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Speaker 1: Like, I think that's excellent advice. But that's a.

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Speaker 3: Little bit different than total digression. But I tell people

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Speaker 3: I work full time, but I work part time. It's

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Speaker 3: a bit and part time as a podcaster and writer,

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Speaker 3: and like then they're like, oh, like, because I think

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Speaker 3: some people would be tempted to say, oh, I went

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Speaker 3: part time to like work on my podcast.

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Speaker 1: But I know what my calendar looks like, and.

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Speaker 3: I do not work part time.

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Speaker 2: No, no, not at all. This is in fact work.

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Speaker 2: We have a business, as does Furnish. So she's gonna

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Speaker 2: talk to us about a healthy state of panic and

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Speaker 2: her life and her work in general.

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Speaker 1: So we are looking forward to that.

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Speaker 2: Well, Sarah and I are delighted to welcome Farnush to

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Speaker 2: Rabi to the program. So, Farnush, can you introduce yourself

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Speaker 2: to our listeners.

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Speaker 4: Yes, happy to thank you so much for having me

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Speaker 4: on your show. You and I've known each other for

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Speaker 4: many years. Laura and I have been working in the

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Speaker 4: personal finance advice space for about twenty years. Through that time,

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Speaker 4: I've written books, I host a podcast called so Money,

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Speaker 4: and my latest book is called A Healthy State of Panic,

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Speaker 4: which is part memoir, part guidebook on how fear can

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Speaker 4: be a friend. We've often been told that fear is

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Speaker 4: something we need to fight, and I don't know about you,

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Speaker 4: but I've never really been able to be fearless, like

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Speaker 4: completely fearless, like the world is a scary place. So

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Speaker 4: it's a more honest take on how fear has been

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Speaker 4: helpful to me and so many other people. And you

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Speaker 4: can too, yeah, And you can't.

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Speaker 2: Do exactly All books eventually have to have that, and

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Speaker 2: you can too, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And you have two children, correct, Yes.

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Speaker 4: I have a daughter who's six and my son is nine.

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Speaker 2: Excellent, excellent, And so you actually you're raising kids yourself now.

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Speaker 2: But one of the things you talk a lot about

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Speaker 2: in your book is your own childhood and growing up

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Speaker 2: in an Iranian immigrant family, and I wonder if you

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Speaker 2: could just talk a little bit about how that experience

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Speaker 2: contributed to how you view the world.

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Speaker 4: My parents taught me to be hyper vigilant. We're not

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Speaker 4: the family that sort of felt like we could just

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Speaker 4: take chances. My parents, Just to give them the background,

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Speaker 4: they immigrated here from Iran in the late seventies with

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Speaker 4: the backdrop of the revolution happening in Iran. Their plan

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Speaker 4: was not to stay in America forever. Their plan was

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Speaker 4: just to come so that my dad could get his

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Speaker 4: education and then they would move back. In the middle

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Speaker 4: of all that, I'm born in Worcestern, Massachusetts, and the revolution,

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Speaker 4: and then on top of that, the hostage crisis and

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Speaker 4: so much else going on, they didn't feel like it

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Speaker 4: was an appropriate time to go back. And fortunately they

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Speaker 4: were able to stay. It wasn't like, oh, let's just

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Speaker 4: stay because we can. They needed to find my dad

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Speaker 4: needed to find a work sponsor, basically to sponsor his

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Speaker 4: visa and staying that was really hard, but one person

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Speaker 4: did and the rest is history. We never went back

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Speaker 4: to Iran to live. My parents have visited. I never

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Speaker 4: actually visited, except when I was very, very, very very young.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember. But all this to say that when

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Speaker 4: they were given the opportunity to stay in America, they

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Speaker 4: really took that as a huge luck, a huge opportunity

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Speaker 4: that they did not take for granted, and as a result,

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Speaker 4: they didn't really push the envelope when they were here,

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Speaker 4: Like they weren't like, Okay, let's risk a lot, or

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Speaker 4: let's allow our daughter to just kind of like become

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Speaker 4: one with the Americans. You know, they'd really felt as

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Speaker 4: though they wanted to protect their culture, but also they

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Speaker 4: were scared. You know that as Iranians in America in

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Speaker 4: the eighties, it was not kumbaya, right. It was a

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Speaker 4: lot of rejection and I think, like a lot of

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Speaker 4: immigrants for the first time in America, there is a

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Speaker 4: culture clash, and they didn't really trust the Western ways

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Speaker 4: of child rearing. You know, like, wait, we're going to

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Speaker 4: just drop off our kid at a house and she's

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Speaker 4: going to sleep over all night, like not in her

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Speaker 4: own bed. That was very foreign to them and very uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: So I wasn't allowed to do a lot of the

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Speaker 4: things that my friends could, talking to boys on the phone, sleep,

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Speaker 4: a lot of socializing stuff I didn't get to participate

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Speaker 4: in that didn't involve you know, parental supervision and things

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Speaker 4: like that. And so they raised me just to be

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Speaker 4: really cautious, and I think I in some ways, well,

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Speaker 4: I would have loved to have gone to a few

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Speaker 4: more sleepovers than I did. I do appreciate that they

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Speaker 4: taught me early on that the world isn't going to

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Speaker 4: be always embracing of all the things that you want

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Speaker 4: to do, and that you should still work hard, you

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Speaker 4: should get an education, you should have self accountability, but

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Speaker 4: at the end of the day, you have to prepare

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Speaker 4: for uncertainty, which they were intimately aware of all that,

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Speaker 4: Like they knew that their all life was so uncertain

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Speaker 4: in the beginning, and so things like loneliness and rejection

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Speaker 4: and uncertainty and fearing those things were very much a

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Speaker 4: part of my upbringing. And I think, as an adult

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Speaker 4: woman trying to navigate a male dominated industry like finance,

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Speaker 4: being the breadwinner in my marriage, which is not you know,

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Speaker 4: as a woman, that's still a foreign role, and all

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Speaker 4: of that, I think becoming much emotionally mature around those fears,

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Speaker 4: I think set me up for success and we can

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Speaker 4: get into it. But I don't look back at my

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Speaker 4: childhood as like, oh, don't feel bad for me. You know, yes,

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Speaker 4: I had sort of a more insulated and guarded childhood,

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Speaker 4: but as a result, I got really intimate, and I

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Speaker 4: had an early relationship with fear, which helped me as

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Speaker 4: I got older. There was a sort of there had

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Speaker 4: to be a reckoning at some point, Like my fears

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Speaker 4: interrupted a lot in my childhood, Like I was the

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Speaker 4: kid that would overreact in her fears with her fears.

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Speaker 4: As adults, we can't do that. So we have to

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Speaker 4: find a way to sort of see that fear eyed eye,

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Speaker 4: understand what the wisdom is potentially in that fear, what

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Speaker 4: it wants to protect or help us protect, and then

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Speaker 4: go do the thing. And that's where the book really

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Speaker 4: arrives for readers. It's like, you're afraid, you still want

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Speaker 4: to go do something really exciting or different or uncertain.

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Speaker 4: Here's how you can use your fears and listen to

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Speaker 4: your fears to go still do that thing, but with

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Speaker 4: more confidence because you have understood the fears. You know

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Speaker 4: what the fears want you to protect, and how to

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Speaker 4: create maybe a different roadmap for yourself so that you're

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Speaker 4: going to go do that scary thing, but while still

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Speaker 4: valuing what your goals are and what's important to you

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Speaker 4: and your risk tolerance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well let's talk about that, because I mean we

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Speaker 2: hear a lot about conquer your fears or you know,

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Speaker 2: feel the fear whatever, and you talk about making fear

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Speaker 2: your friend. So let's talk a little bit about that metaphor,

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Speaker 2: Like when what does it mean to make fear your friend?

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Speaker 4: It means that you have a relationship as opposed to

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Speaker 4: a combative relationship. You have a relationship where you know,

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Speaker 4: you're understanding that fear potentially has arrived with a purpose,

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Speaker 4: and you're still the adult in the room. You're still

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Speaker 4: in control of this relationship. As adult, I think we

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Speaker 4: undermine our ability to manage our emotions. We think that

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Speaker 4: we are going to be overwhelmed and flooded and sunk

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Speaker 4: and by our emotions, Whereas I think, you know, all

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Speaker 4: it takes sometimes is recognizing what the emotion is and

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Speaker 4: deciding what you're going to do with it. What are

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Speaker 4: you going to allow for this fear to like, You're

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Speaker 4: going to give it space, But you are still in

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Speaker 4: control of this relationship. And that's really the friendship, you know,

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Speaker 4: where even in real friendships, like there's a balance of

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Speaker 4: power sometimes and there's a give and take sometimes, And

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Speaker 4: I think that's important to remember. I'm a journalist, you're

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Speaker 4: a curious person. What I always say is when fear

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Speaker 4: shows up, ask it questions, have a dialogue that's part

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Speaker 4: of the friendship. Have a conversation like where did you

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Speaker 4: come from? What do you want me to protect? Are

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Speaker 4: you real? Because sometimes fears are not you know, their fiction,

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Speaker 4: or maybe they are other people's fears that we've decided

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Speaker 4: to or maybe unconsciously subconsciously kind of inherited and allowed

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Speaker 4: to take up space in our lives. These are important

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Speaker 4: things to recognize, and fear is really, I think, sometimes

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Speaker 4: a reflection of who we are, which sometimes our friends

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Speaker 4: are too. You know, who you choose to have as friends.

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Speaker 4: There's a reason for that. And the reason that maybe

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Speaker 4: you have certain fears is because of the way you

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Speaker 4: were raised, your tendencies, your risk tolerances, all of that.

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Speaker 4: So fear tells a story about who you are sometimes.

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Speaker 4: Again why it's important I think to have patience with

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Speaker 4: our fears, not always. And the book doesn't talk about

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Speaker 4: all the fears all the times in every situation, must

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Speaker 4: honor them. No, we talk about nine different fears that

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Speaker 4: I find typically come up when we are at life's

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Speaker 4: big crossroads pertaining to things like money, relationships with our

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Speaker 4: partners and friends and ourselves and our careers, and when

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Speaker 4: you're afraid of things like loneliness or rejection, or money

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Speaker 4: or failure or uncertainty. And these are some of the

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Speaker 4: chapters in the book, and fear shows up. I think

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Speaker 4: these are the times when we really do want to

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Speaker 4: face them and befriend them. And again, not because we

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Speaker 4: necessarily have to take them along for the journey, but

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Speaker 4: because maybe there's a moment to stop and realize there

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Speaker 4: is some information that this fear wants to relate to

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Speaker 4: me that can be really, really useful to me as

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Speaker 4: I'm about to make a high stakes decision. We don't

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Speaker 4: want our decisions to backfire, and fear can sometimes be

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Speaker 4: a compass to help us navigate life's maze.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of those maze aspects and one that's

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Speaker 2: you don't get into until later in the book. But

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Speaker 2: I know, since your personal finance expert, let's talk about

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Speaker 2: fears around money, Like, what are some of the most

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Speaker 2: common fears people have about money, and particularly maybe you

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Speaker 2: can go into some of those that you might have

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Speaker 2: been telling yourself.

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Speaker 1: Over the course of your life.

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Speaker 4: I like to talk about the fear of not having

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Speaker 4: enough This comes up so much in my conversations with

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Speaker 4: people and on the podcast. Often people write in like

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Speaker 4: do I have enough to retire? Will I have enough

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Speaker 4: to buy a house? Will I ever have enough to

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Speaker 4: support my family? I'm thinking about maybe starting one. And

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Speaker 4: sometimes that question and that fear around that question is real,

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Speaker 4: Like it's because you don't make enough and the world

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Speaker 4: is expensive and childcare is expensive, and so when that

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Speaker 4: fear comes up, I think it's legit, and it's important

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Speaker 4: to sort of understand, well, what are the holes that

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Speaker 4: I may need to possibly fill. You know, there's just

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Speaker 4: some basic math sometimes that has to equate. So if

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Speaker 4: certain things cost certain things and you're not making enough

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Speaker 4: and you want for those things, then it's a matter

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Speaker 4: of either adjusting how much you make or your approach

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Speaker 4: to what you're paying for and maybe changing some of

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Speaker 4: your goals. And that's a personal decision. But when that

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Speaker 4: fear shows up, sometimes it is a real fear, and

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Speaker 4: it's because of just the economics of the world that

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Speaker 4: we live in. But often I find that when we

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Speaker 4: fear this not having enough, it's pointing at something much deeper.

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Speaker 4: The fear really wants you to maybe take a step

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Speaker 4: back and realize that you're focused exclusively on income and

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Speaker 4: the cost of things and not also recognizing the other

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Speaker 4: assets that you may have that in their totality make

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Speaker 4: you rich, or you would maybe think twice about do

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Speaker 4: I have enough? Because I, for example, lost my job

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Speaker 4: in two thousand and nine during the recession, and I

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Speaker 4: definitely had a lot of these fear musings like, oh

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Speaker 4: my gosh, you know, how am I ever going to

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Speaker 4: afford anything anymore? I've lost my income and I was

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Speaker 4: afraid of not having enough to pay my mortgage. I

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Speaker 4: was afraid of not having enough to cover my gap

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Speaker 4: and employment. Who knows when I'm going to find another job?

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Speaker 4: And what I find is that when we have the

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Speaker 4: fear of money, it's often dovetailed with the fear of uncertainty.

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Speaker 4: Money and uncertainty. There's sort of like these two peas

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Speaker 4: in a pod. And one of the exercises in the

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Speaker 4: book about when you're fearing financial uncertainty around sort of

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Speaker 4: challenge in your life is to do this inventory of

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Speaker 4: all these assets that you have that go beyond money,

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Speaker 4: that are rich. And in that moment in two thousand

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Speaker 4: and nin when I lost my job, I can't go

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Speaker 4: back and beg for my job, although I would have,

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Speaker 4: although they wouldn't have given it back to me. I

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Speaker 4: couldn't get back my title, my income, my health insurance.

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Speaker 4: I could not reverse the subprime mortgage debacle, none of that.

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Speaker 4: So when you have the fear of financial uncertainty, the

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Speaker 4: fear wants you to protect your sense of control. So

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Speaker 4: what can you control? What can you leverage in your

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Speaker 4: life that is a tool, is an asset to get

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Speaker 4: you to the next place with more confidence. And for me,

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Speaker 4: it wasn't necessarily money, although I had a little bit

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Speaker 4: of savings, but mostly it was my ability to strategize.

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Speaker 4: I was creative. I had a body of work. I

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Speaker 4: had a book recently that I'd written, which was a

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Speaker 4: platform that I hadn't really given. I haven't really looked

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Speaker 4: at it like that until really I was in this

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Speaker 4: moment of having to restrategize. I had a network of

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Speaker 4: relationships professional and personal that could help me. I had

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Speaker 4: my mental health. I had a support system. These are

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Speaker 4: little things and in there, as you combine them, and

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Speaker 4: as you look at them and you reflect on them,

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Speaker 4: you're like, oh my god, I can actually maybe do

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Speaker 4: some things that previously scared me. But now I know

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Speaker 4: I have a backup, I have a system, and so

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Speaker 4: for me, the next best move financial move wasn't to

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Speaker 4: try to find a full time job. They didn't exist

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Speaker 4: at the time. Actually, sometimes the best decisions are the

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Speaker 4: ones that are made for you. I was like, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to freelance and I'm going to hustle, and I'm

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Speaker 4: going to offer myself up as a consultant and as

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Speaker 4: a contributor, and I'm going to envision ideas for other

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Speaker 4: companies and pitch them. And I didn't score home runs

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Speaker 4: all the time, but I got enough home runs, and

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Speaker 4: those revenue streams ultimately created a business for me. Later

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Speaker 4: that year, I incorporated. And so you know, all this

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Speaker 4: to say that when you're fearing financial uncertainty and what

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Speaker 4: if and what if and will I have enough? I

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Speaker 4: think it's important to take inventory not just your financial

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Speaker 4: hard assets like your savings and your investments, but also

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Speaker 4: these other intangible things that priceless that can be tools

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Speaker 4: for you in stepping into your next opportunity that are certain,

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Speaker 4: Like you can lay me off, but you can't lay

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Speaker 4: me off for my ambitions. You can't lay me off

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Speaker 4: for my all the my rolodex of friends and professional

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Speaker 4: network that will be there for me no matter what

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Speaker 4: when everything is And that's an assignment for all of

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Speaker 4: us listening, Like, imagine you do hit rock bottom. What

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Speaker 4: are the things that endure, the assets, the resources that remain.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I interviewed somebody in the book who was

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Speaker 4: a victim of Bernie Madoff's billion dollar ponzi scheme, and

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Speaker 4: so she was left with zero savings, all her money

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Speaker 4: and her husband's money gone from a phone call that

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Speaker 4: they got, like you're just done, and she's like, I

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Speaker 4: went through. She went through all the grief and all things,

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Speaker 4: but she was like, I'm focused exclusively on what I've lost.

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Speaker 4: I need to focus on what I have still included

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Speaker 4: her home. But also you know, she was a writer

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Speaker 4: and she had written many good books, and she was like,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to write again because I know that's gonna

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Speaker 4: be my way out of this. I got to just

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Speaker 4: start writing. And she actually wrote about her experience being

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Speaker 4: swindled and all of that and eventually recouped some of

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Speaker 4: the money and like, but her work in that fear

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Speaker 4: of like oh my god, doom and gloom was I'm

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Speaker 4: going to have to focus on what I can control,

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Speaker 4: what has endured, and what I can still leverage so

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Speaker 4: that I can get out of this, because nobody wants

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Speaker 4: to stay stuck. That's not what the fear wants you

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Speaker 4: to do. The fear wants you to protect yourself, which

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Speaker 4: means getting out there and doing something else, to move

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Speaker 4: on and find success somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, we're going to take a quick ad

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Speaker 2: break and then we're going to be back with Farnws

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Speaker 2: sharing a little bit more about women and money in particular.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, I am back with Farnush Tabi, who

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Speaker 2: was the author of the brand new book A Healthy

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Speaker 2: State of Panic, which is about leveraging your fears to

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Speaker 2: achieve success. But before Farnush wrote that book many years ago,

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Speaker 2: she also wrote a book called When She Makes More,

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Speaker 2: which is about women breadwinners.

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Speaker 1: So this is a fear as well.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people are still very uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: with the idea of women being breadwinners in relationships, and

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Speaker 2: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that,

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Speaker 2: like why people have that fear, because I know it's

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Speaker 2: something that a lot of listeners of this show have

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Speaker 2: been dealing with.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, And I include some of those stories in

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Speaker 4: the new book, A Healthy State of Panic. Those were

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Speaker 4: coming up a lot for me as I was writing,

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Speaker 4: and it's true. We fear what we don't understand. We

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Speaker 4: fear what we don't know. And even in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 4: as we've evolved and relationships of all shapes and sizes,

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Speaker 4: you know, there's still a lot of resistance to this

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Speaker 4: idea of a woman making more than a man in

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Speaker 4: their relationship. And a Georgetown study recently even concluded that

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Speaker 4: across all gender, race identity, men, women, everyone's uncomfortable. But

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Speaker 4: like most people are like, wait a minute, huh, how

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Speaker 4: does this work? And again, because we haven't been exercising

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Speaker 4: this much, you know, this is a new phenomenon. The

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Speaker 4: traditional model, the economic model in a male female relationship

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Speaker 4: is such that he makes more. And that's what we

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Speaker 4: have become. That's what we have trusted for so long,

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Speaker 4: that's what sort of our society has built around for

434
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 4: so long, and so it is a new thing. And

435
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,199
Speaker 4: I think that for men and women who are in

436
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 4: this dynamic, they may have arrived with this without that expectation.

437
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 4: In my book, I talk often to women and men

438
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 4: who For those that were extremely challenged by it is

439
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 4: because maybe they arrived in their marriage expecting the other formula,

440
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 4: expecting him to make more, and so there is a

441
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 4: lot of fear, and the fear is rooted in can

442
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 4: this even work? A lot of fear of rejection, as

443
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 4: I also experienced as the breadwinner initially my mother my

444
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 4: culture as an Iranian American, like this was not culturally normal,

445
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 4: as it isn't even in America, but especially in the

446
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 4: Middle East, and so there was a lot of sort

447
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 4: of doubt as far as like would this even work

448
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 4: out for her? And what does this say about my

449
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 4: husband and me? And I just thought that it was unfair,

450
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 4: but I thought, Okay, I got to write about this.

451
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 4: But yeah, there's a lot of fear around women breadwinners.

452
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 4: And I think it's again because we're just not used

453
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 4: to it. We haven't seen a lot of evidence either

454
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,959
Speaker 4: as to how this can actually be a thriving relationship,

455
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 4: which is partly why I wrote the book. I wanted

456
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 4: to identify these successful couples and talk about how they

457
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 4: were working through and thriving with this sort of new

458
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 4: economic shift in paradigm.

459
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so I mean, what do the healthy relationships do?

460
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: I mean that, you know, because I know people have

461
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: a lot of fears about it. I mean between women

462
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 2: still going to have to do all the household work

463
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: or that men will feel emasculated. I mean, I know

464
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: there's a lot of fears of things like infidelity and

465
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: stuff like that. O way, it just yeah, I mean,

466
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 2: it not happens, and of course it happens, but it

467
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 2: happens in other couples too.

468
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: But it's like, I mean, how does that wind up

469
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: being healthy?

470
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 3: Then?

471
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 1: What are the habits of those healthy relationships?

472
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 4: Well, foundationally, I think couples who are successful in this

473
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 4: economic paradigm realize that they cannot attach their contributions in

474
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 4: the relationship to their gender expectations, like we have general

475
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 4: expectations in our society. To adopt them in your relationship

476
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 4: is very dangerous to say that, well, because you're the man,

477
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 4: you exclusively have to be the one who makes most

478
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 4: of the money, and as the woman, you exclusively are

479
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 4: the one who's going to be in charge of all

480
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 4: the housework. That's very dangerous for all couples. And I

481
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 4: think when you're in a relationship where now she makes

482
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 4: more and now she's also expected to do all the

483
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 4: housework as well, which happens. You know. We looked at

484
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,239
Speaker 4: a study that saw that when she makes more, she

485
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 4: actually does more housework than a woman who makes less

486
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 4: because she's trying to overcompensate in that department. Making more

487
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 4: almost makes her feel less feminine sometimes, and it's very psychological.

488
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 4: This is a lot of just over the years, generations,

489
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 4: eons of like social conditioning. It's really hard to unwire

490
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 4: and unwind from that. But recognizing this is really important

491
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 4: if you're finding yourself even subconsciously consciously falling into these

492
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 4: gender roles in your marriage and you're like, but I

493
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 4: don't even like to cook, or I'm not even I

494
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,360
Speaker 4: don't have the time, you know, you have to get

495
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 4: really honest about that. And the couples that were most

496
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 4: successful just did what they were each best at, what

497
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 4: they each wanted to do, and if there was leftover

498
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 4: that neither wanted them wanted to do, they outsourced it,

499
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 4: which sounds like a rich couple's problem. But you can

500
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 4: outsource a lot for not a lot. These days, there's

501
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 4: a lot that you can outsource things to automations and technology.

502
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 4: You can barter with your neighbors and your you know,

503
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 4: if you want to, you can barter childcare like women

504
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 4: would say, and men would say, we would swap babysitting

505
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 4: nights with our neighbors, and so that gave us like

506
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 4: free nights in some ways and didn't cost anything. But

507
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 4: you got to get creative. But the bottom line is

508
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 4: that foundational. You cannot assign contribution roles in your relationship

509
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 4: based on the gender. And there's a lot we can

510
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 4: learn from same sex couples actually around this, because this

511
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 4: is not an issue for them. Maybe they have other

512
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 4: issues in their relationships, but this is not something that

513
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 4: comes up right because how could it. And they literally,

514
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 4: like I interviewed some same sex couples, you know, how

515
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 4: they devise their to dos in their relationship comes down

516
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 4: to just who wants to do it, who's best at it,

517
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 4: who has a time. The other thing I think is

518
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 4: really important to be conscious of is that when you

519
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 4: make more, whoever you are in the relationship, that doesn't

520
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 4: mean that your time is more important than the other person.

521
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,479
Speaker 4: And I find this to be a conflict, not just

522
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 4: in same couples that make disparate income, where she makes more,

523
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 4: he makes more. It's just, you know, we tend to

524
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 4: think that, well, if I make more than I have,

525
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 4: maybe more of a say in the relationship, or my

526
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 4: time is more important. Not I mean so many times,

527
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 4: even just earlier this year, I was in conversation with

528
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 4: a mom and she's a teacher and her husband, it

529
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 4: works in sales, and so she makes less than he,

530
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 4: but she was conflating that with his time is more

531
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 4: valuable than mine. And so when we were trying to

532
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 4: get together for a mom's night out, she bailed at

533
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 4: the last minute because she said, oh, I didn't realize

534
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 4: my husband a meeting tonight, and you know, I only

535
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 4: make a teacher salaries, so I can't really like interfere

536
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 4: with his work schedule. And I was like, ooh, yeah,

537
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 4: let's I'm sorry, but you're a teacher. You have an

538
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 4: incredibly important job, and I would argue more important than

539
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 4: someone in corporate sales. Like I don't know, I just

540
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 4: think that that's that's an ongoing debate and it's not

541
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 4: worth the time to decide, like both of your times

542
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 4: are important, and I think together you need to come

543
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 4: up with a better way of managing your hour.

544
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, like figuring out ahead of time who is not

545
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: available on any giff competition.

546
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 4: And so I think that you know so all that's

547
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 4: really important, I think to recognizing that just because you

548
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 4: make less in the relationship or no money, it doesn't

549
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 4: mean you cannot be a significant contributor to a relationship,

550
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 4: because there's so much else that makes the world go

551
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 4: around when you're a family unit, things like food management

552
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 4: and taking care of the house, and taking care of

553
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 4: your social calendar, and providing emotional support and like the

554
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 4: also like logistical support, and so thinking about when there

555
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 4: are these changes in your relationship in terms of who's

556
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 4: making what and you as the person maybe making less

557
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 4: or feeling less than, you need to have a conscious

558
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 4: conversation and a real plan, a new plan for how

559
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 4: each of you is going to contribute in a way

560
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 4: where you both feel equally important to the overall well

561
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 4: being of the family. And that is going to evolve

562
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 4: over time, maybe even within your financial life. If you're

563
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 4: making less, it doesn't mean that your financial contributions are

564
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 4: less because we earning is just one piece of the pie.

565
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 4: There's also the managing of the money. There's the conscious

566
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 4: spending of the money, there's the investing of the money.

567
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 4: And so what I found too in couples that were successful,

568
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 4: if like let's say she's making more of the income,

569
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 4: he might be the one who is working with the

570
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 4: accountant and looking at the monthly budget and they're doing

571
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 4: it together, but he's more involved. I think in every

572
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 4: household there is sort of naturally one person who gravitates

573
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 4: more to the money stuff. That doesn't mean the other

574
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 4: person's baring their head in the sand, but that person's

575
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 4: maybe more of the day to day money manager or

576
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 4: month to month money manager. And that's an important role.

577
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 4: In my own marriage. I make more, but my husband's

578
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 4: more of the saver. So I use more of my

579
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 4: income to pay for our overhead and costs, and I

580
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 4: of course save and invest. But for my husband, you know,

581
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 4: he contributes exclusively to the kids' college funds. He provides

582
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 4: the vacation money. And so looking back, like this is

583
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 4: stuff that has a couple, you want to decide on

584
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 4: what would make you feel what contributions do you want

585
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: to make financial in the relationship. You could be more

586
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 4: of the saver and then you can look back and go,

587
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 4: I helped send our kids to college. It's not a

588
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 4: small thing. Even as you were the one maybe making

589
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 4: less income. So these are the things that I talk

590
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 4: about in the book, These sorts of negotiations and plans

591
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 4: that you can make within the relationship so that each

592
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: person feels like an equal contributor, financial contributor, household contributor,

593
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 4: emotional contributor, all of it, even though there is this

594
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 4: disparate income within the relationship.

595
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 3: Got it?

596
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: So I wanted to pivot more to Farnusha's life here.

597
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: I mean, we now know that your husband's the safer,

598
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: you're more of a you know, you're the breadwinner in

599
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: your household. But let's talk about what a day to

600
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: day life looks like in your your household these days,

601
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 2: so too school age kids.

602
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I can just give you the hour

603
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 4: by hour hour.

604
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: Sure, let's hear it.

605
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 4: Well, we usually wake up around seven am. We are

606
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 4: not super early risers in our house, but seven am.

607
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 4: I'm not a morning person. Seven am is even hard

608
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 4: enough for me. We get our kids up and we

609
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 4: do the whole hour to hour and a half routine

610
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 4: of like breakfast, brushing teeth, getting dressed, maybe catching up

611
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 4: on some homework, and then we hit the bus and

612
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 4: then from like eight thirty to nine. I do a

613
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 4: little bit of emailing my own I work from home.

614
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 4: My husband also works from home. That's basically always been true,

615
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 4: even before the pandemic, maybe not so much as it

616
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 4: is now. And plus we also move to the suburbs

617
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 4: during the pandemic, so we're pretty home bound. I go

618
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 4: into the New York City area once or twice a

619
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 4: month for some meetings, but primarily at home, and I

620
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 4: run a podcast. I do a lot of zoom calls

621
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 4: with clients and gosh, running errands, loading the dishwasher. Like

622
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 4: the whole day is just sort of this like a

623
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 4: lot of personal and professional in a work day. But

624
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 4: basically I like to get a workout in usually between

625
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 4: the hours of nine and ten in the morning, and

626
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 4: then from ten till about four four thirty. It's a

627
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: lot of work and calls and podcasting mixed in with

628
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 4: like maybe I'll take a shower, maybe I'll go pick

629
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 4: up some dry cleaning, maybe i'll you know. I do

630
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,239
Speaker 4: a lot of my grocery shopping online. I rarely hit

631
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 4: the grocery store anymore unless it's for last minute things.

632
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,479
Speaker 4: And our kids are at school until about five. We

633
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 4: they do an after school program. So we used to

634
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,959
Speaker 4: have full time childcare, which for parents who have young

635
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 4: kids who are paying for childcare right now, I'm going

636
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 4: to tell you, there's a there's a whole world where

637
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,959
Speaker 4: they go to school and then maybe the school has

638
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 4: an after school program and it's public, so that cost

639
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 4: goes away. And so that's been hugely helpful for us,

640
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 4: which means that I don't have to work like a

641
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 4: crazy person anymore to make money to pay for all

642
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 4: the things to have my kids be taken care of.

643
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 4: And I don't regret, you know, I don't regret like

644
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 4: having work so much when they were littles littles, but

645
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 4: I think it has afforded me now the ability to

646
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 4: kind of take a little bit of a step back

647
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 4: and not have to do all the things and be

648
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 4: there for my kids when they come home and make dinner,

649
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 4: which I like to do. And so when they get

650
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 4: home around five five point thirty, by then they've already

651
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 4: done their homework at school, so now we can really

652
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 4: just like have dinner and play and they can read

653
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 4: or whatever, watch a little TV. That's kind of our evenings,

654
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 4: and then I go to bed around eleven because usually

655
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 4: between their bedtimes at eleven, I'm catching up on some

656
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 4: extra emails and things like that, but that's basically it.

657
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 4: And now I've launched a book, so it's been a

658
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 4: little bit more hectic, throwing in like book events into

659
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 4: all the mix and some travel. So that's not going

660
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 4: to happen every week, but it's been an especially busy fall.

661
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so quick question. Were you ever scared of or

662
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: had fears of?

663
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if we like to scared of public

664
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 2: speaking and flying start to that they're but you have

665
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: to do them, you know, and all the time.

666
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 4: I mean, I have a big talk I'm doing at

667
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 4: the end of the month and it's a new keynote,

668
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 4: so I'm going to be giving it for the first time,

669
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 4: and I'm always nervous, and I don't think that's a

670
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 4: bad thing. I think I was actually just talking about

671
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 4: this on my own podcast, that having this fear of

672
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 4: public speaking, it's not the fear of having the confidence

673
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 4: to speak on stage. It's more of the all the

674
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 4: things that I have to be kind of aware of

675
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 4: while I'm on stage, my slides, my movement, my delivery,

676
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 4: you know, and so to that extent, if I'm afraid

677
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 4: of those things. The fear is telling me to prepare

678
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 4: as best I can, you know, get there an hour early,

679
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 4: scope out the room. I just reached out to the

680
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 4: event holder and I say, can you send me a

681
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 4: picture of the room, because I'm like, want to No,

682
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 4: am I going to be on a stage? Am I

683
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 4: just going to be? Like?

684
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: What?

685
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 4: I just? More information is more information. It's never not

686
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 4: enough to prepare yourself for that stuff, because it just

687
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 4: makes you're setting yourself up more for success. Not to

688
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 4: say things could still go or wrong, but at least

689
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 4: you've done everything you can to prepare. And that's really

690
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 4: what fear. That's the gift, you know. That's it's not

691
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 4: like listen to your fear so everything can work out

692
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 4: all the time. It's so that you can go and

693
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 4: do the thing with more certainty, knowing that the world

694
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 4: could still upend things, but that you did everything you can.

695
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 4: You're on the other side of that experience, knowing that

696
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 4: you respected your goals, your values. You you did it

697
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 4: with integrity, and you did it prepared, and you did

698
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 4: it maybe even a little bit still scared, but you

699
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 4: still did the thing.

700
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: You still did the thing. You felt the fear and

701
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: did it anyway exactly as they say. Yeah, all right, well.

702
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: Furnish this is great. We always end with a love

703
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: of the week. I can go first to give you

704
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 2: a sec to think about it. I am actually wearing

705
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 2: some warm, fuzzy socks and now I realize I really

706
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: needed to write down the name of what they were.

707
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 2: But it always comes back to like Amazon. I swear that,

708
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: you know, because I go online. I'm like, I'm out

709
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: of socks. All my socks have holes in them, and

710
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, I would like some warm wool socks. And

711
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: I go on and I search, and then you know,

712
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: thanks to the beauty of online reviews, I can tell

713
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: that there's some pair, some set that's like not very

714
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: expensive but has like thousands of five star reviews, and

715
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm on it. I'm on it, and you

716
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 2: know they're there the next day and they're great.

717
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 4: Well, the power of the Amazon review. This is what

718
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 4: I'm trying to get everyone to do, is like, please

719
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 4: leave a review for my book, because once I hit

720
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 4: a thousand reviews, the book will just sell in perpetuity

721
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 4: and I'll never have to do another podcast or reel again.

722
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 4: Although I would always come back.

723
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: To your podcast.

724
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 4: But of course, my favorite thing this week is and

725
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 4: I encourage everybody to do this. I've been going through

726
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 4: some old boxes and I have come across a lot

727
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 4: of old photos of myself, of my kids. I just

728
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 4: found the sonogram of my babies when they were in

729
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 4: my tummy. I showed them this morning. They were like, Mom,

730
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 4: your tummy is so ugly. I was like, okay, looks

731
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 4: like autogram. What is going on in your stomach? It's

732
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 4: so weird. But I think that that for me has

733
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 4: been really special this week. I've framed some of these

734
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 4: photos and now they're in front of me, and so,

735
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 4: you know, just go through some old boxes. You know

736
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 4: you might enjoy the process and seeing a photo of

737
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 4: yourself when you were a little kid. This is an

738
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 4: important thing to have at the forefront all the time,

739
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 4: because why else are you doing the things that you're doing.

740
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 4: If you're ever doubting anything, remember who you were as

741
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 4: a kid. Don't let that kid down. If you're worried

742
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 4: about public speaking, if you're worried about doing the next

743
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 4: thing and taking a chance, like you know, I always

744
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 4: think about myself as a kid and how scared I was,

745
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 4: and how scared of ever actually realizing my potential. I

746
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 4: was so do it for her, you know, and sometimes

747
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 4: having that actual visual reminder is so helpful. And we'll

748
00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 4: keep you going.

749
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely the Fieldo's photos are pretty cute too, right, thank cute? Yeah, exactly?

750
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thank you so much for coming on Furnished.

751
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 2: Let our listeners know again the title of the book

752
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: and where they can find you.

753
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Laura. The book it's called a

754
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 4: Healthy State of Panic, and you can find it at

755
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 4: a healthystateopanic dot com. I love being on Instagram too.

756
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 4: If you want to follow me there at Farnish Sharabi,

757
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,439
Speaker 4: I slide into my DMS. Lots of fun happening behind this.

758
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 2: Lots of fun. All right, thanks so much for joining us.

759
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 2: Thanks well, that was awesome. I am a big Farnish fan.

760
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 2: So Sarah, this question came in, she said, this listener,

761
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 2: maybe we recognize that we might have different opinions on this, says,

762
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: I'm curious how both of you approached decorating your houses

763
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 2: for any new listener. Sarah and I both moved in

764
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, so we've both been dealing with new

765
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: house stuff for the past two years or so, She says,

766
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 2: did you ever consider professional help or using a decorator?

767
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: I know you are typically fans of outside, but decorating

768
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 2: can end up being a very significant investment but might

769
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: also lead to a greater enjoyment of a space. This

770
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: person just moved, and she feels like she is wasting

771
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 2: time on thinking about how she might decorate when she

772
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 2: doesn't particularly enjoy it, nor does she think she is

773
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: very good at it, and so she finds it quite stressful.

774
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: And part of the stress.

775
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 2: Of feeling like her house isn't finished makes her feel

776
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: like she can't have people over, which is then an

777
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: opportunity cost in and of itself.

778
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: So would love your advice. So, Sarah, what do you

779
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: have for her?

780
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 4: Yeah?

781
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying my perspective is correct.

782
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,479
Speaker 3: I just want her to think outside of the box

783
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 3: of like what might be normal and what might be

784
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 3: possible or acceptable. But I have zero interest in this

785
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: particular category. We do not have a fancily decorated house.

786
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 3: Most of our furniture is IKEA. We replace it when

787
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 3: it looks so bad that it's like we did take

788
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 3: a look at the like fifteen year old brown Futan

789
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 3: and we're like, okay, fine, it's fine. We should get

790
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 3: other sofa from Ikia to replace it for the next

791
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 3: decade or something.

792
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,479
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just like not a priority for us.

793
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 3: We want to save, we want to spend money on

794
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 3: our kids, we want to travel, and to some extent,

795
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 3: you can't spend out in every single category, at least

796
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 3: not at our income level, and so we are completely

797
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: happy in surroundings that have enough space and are very comfortable.

798
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 3: I don't live in a particularly tiny home. It's like

799
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 3: thirty five hundred square feet or something like that, but

800
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 3: it is not decorated in any way, shape or form. However,

801
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 3: I have people over all the time, and I've never

802
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 3: once had someone be like, ugh, your house is like

803
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 3: not decorated, so I don't want to come or something

804
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 3: like that.

805
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: Hang out with you.

806
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 3: Sarah like, yeah, we had book club yesterday. I mean

807
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 3: we have plenty of space. I have a folding table

808
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 3: that I can put a tablecloth if I need a

809
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 3: big table. We've had many a party here. In fact,

810
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 3: I would say I host more than I get invited

811
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 3: to things. Maybe I don't get invited because they're so

812
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 3: offended by our house that. But I would just push

813
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 3: back on the idea that you need like a fancy

814
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 3: house because if your friends are going to judge you

815
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 3: by like what your home looks like, I mean, and

816
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 3: then they're not people I would particularly want to hang

817
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 3: out with.

818
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: Yeah.

819
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: And by the way, I have high standards when it

820
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 3: comes to being like clean, so like I want the

821
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 3: house to be organized and not cluttered, and like people

822
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 3: actually commented yesterday because it had happened to be the

823
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 3: day we had our house cleaned. Anyway, wow, your house

824
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 3: is so clean, but nobody said, like, but the furniture

825
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: is not stylish.

826
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: Just the furniture is for my kiya. I can't be

827
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: friends with you, Yeah, I think that is. Anyone who

828
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: said that is not somebody you want to be friends

829
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: with anyway, So I say you shouldn't. These are separate

830
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: questions like can you have people over? Absolutely, you should

831
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: have people over. I remember we had we had some

832
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 2: people come stop by to see our house when we

833
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: had just moved in, and so everything was like full

834
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: of box I mean literally that day, like the movers

835
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: were like getting stuff out. I had just like given

836
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: them the tip, like you know, they were coming over

837
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: and it's fine. Like if they're your friends, they enjoy

838
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: your life and they enjoy you, and so I mean

839
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: as long as you have like a chair for them

840
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: to sit on. Like so if you literally have no furniture,

841
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: you might want to at least get some folding chairs,

842
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: But as long as you have a clean bathroom and

843
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: somewhere for them to sit, most people are going to

844
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 2: be pleasant enough. If they are people you want to

845
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: have in your life. Now, that is a different question

846
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: than decorating. I actually think this person is a prime

847
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: candidate for hiring a designer for precisely what she said.

848
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 2: You are spending a lot of money to decorate this house,

849
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 2: and you want to spend it well, and you are

850
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: recognizing that other people have an eye for things and

851
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: you don't. So this is absolutely the situation where you

852
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 2: hire a professional and it's not like you go away

853
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 2: and come back and like the whole house is decorated.

854
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: I mean, it usually doesn't work like that. I mean

855
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 2: maybe some people do that, Like if you're decorating like

856
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: a vacation home you plan to rent out and you

857
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: don't really care what's in it. But if this is

858
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: your obviously your primary residence, what it will be is

859
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 2: that this person, this designer, will show you like three

860
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: options based on what he or she has decided is

861
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 2: your taste, and then you will choose from those three options. Right,

862
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: And that makes it so much easier because you are

863
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: not choosing from the entire universe of sofas. You are

864
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 2: choosing between three sofas, all of which would be excellent, right,

865
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 2: So you just choose your favorite from those or I

866
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: mean the entire universe of if you're doing a whole

867
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: house thing, like, you're gonna be choosing stuff like the

868
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 2: pulls on cabinets, like what the faucets look like. I mean,

869
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: all these things that you have never ever thought to

870
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: care about. And it does kind of you know, there

871
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: are choices that could probably look more in the way

872
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: you'd like them to look, or less or you know,

873
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 2: more feel like you want them to look or less.

874
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: And again, this.

875
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 2: Designer knows all that they know what knobs are good,

876
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: and they know looking at what your taste is, and

877
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 2: they will show you three knobs and then you choose

878
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 2: from those three knobs and you find something you are

879
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 2: happy with. So I think in your case, this would

880
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 2: actually be a great way to make sure that you're

881
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 2: not wasting money on a sofa you then hate, or

882
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: a paint color that isn't what you like, or anything

883
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 2: like that. That said, different designers get paid different ways.

884
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: I would suggest looking into somebody who is willing to

885
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: be paid by the hour, because then they're more open

886
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: as opposed to like a percentage of the budget, because

887
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 2: some people do a percent of like what you purchase,

888
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 2: and usually it comes out about the same because they

889
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 2: get discounts, like there's often too the trade discounts for

890
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: like rugs and furniture and all these for most of

891
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: the high end furniture stores.

892
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: So if they were.

893
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 2: Getting like I'm just throwing this out, I don't remember

894
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 2: what the standard numbers are, but if they were getting

895
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 2: twenty percent of the price, they're often getting between a

896
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 2: fifteen and twenty five percent discount to the trade anyway,

897
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 2: so it's it's kind of a wash.

898
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: But the incentive then is to choose.

899
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: Slightly more expensive items versus if you were getting paid

900
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: by the hour, then it's the same to you if

901
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 2: it's a relatively inexpensive couch versus a more expensive couch,

902
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: and so they won't automatically feel like even if they're

903
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: not consciously doing it, there's always the incentive to have

904
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: slightly more expensive stuff. So I would just think, you know,

905
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: it can go either way and you're probably gonna get

906
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 2: something great regardless if you ask friends for recommendations whatever,

907
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 2: But just throwing that out there as a possibility if

908
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 2: you're looking for slightly more budget friendly furniture.

909
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 1: Pieces totally makes sense.

910
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think if you care about it, I

911
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 3: totally agree with Laura. I just I don't know, like

912
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,479
Speaker 3: make sure you'd care about it, like I would totally

913
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 3: hire a designer for clothing because I care.

914
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah more, Yeah, exactly.

915
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,959
Speaker 2: We all have different things we care about or even

916
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: just you know, you may not care about it, but

917
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: sometimes in tough roll estite markets, if you're trying to

918
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: sell a house, like staging it can really help, and

919
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 2: you know, so.

920
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: You have to.

921
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, if you're going to live in a house

922
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 3: for ten years and you're like hiring someone to decorate it,

923
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 3: I mean most people are not hiring it because they

924
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 3: plan on moving out in two years.

925
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: I did see you write that, and I'm like, hmmm,

926
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 1: because like, by the but that's not this person.

927
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 2: I'm just saying like you know, you even somebody who

928
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: doesn't care about it, might you know, that's a situation

929
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 2: where you might look into it, right, if you were

930
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: trying to sell something relatively.

931
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, all right, well, this has been best of

932
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: both worlds.

933
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: I was interviewing Fernush Tarabi that her brand new book

934
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 2: A Healthy State of Panic. We will be back next

935
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 2: week with more on making work and life fit together.

936
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.

937
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com

938
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 3: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.

939
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This

940
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join

941
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life

942
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 2: work together.