1 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: It was about two thousand and five, two thousand and six. 2 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: I was shopping for some toys for my children when 3 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: I saw this kit and it was a green box 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: with big letters that said CSI and then it said 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: Forensic Facial Reconstruction Kit. Now, it was clearly designed as 6 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: an educational toy. I would save from twelve to fourteen 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: and up. But I thought my students at the college 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: would love this kind of as a side project. And 9 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: my thought forgetting this whole thing started with them was 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: for them to learn what actually goes into these facial reconstructions. 11 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: You start with just a skull, and then you've got 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: to take great time and care to put together this face, 13 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: these eyebrows, these ears, these lips. It takes a minute. Now, 14 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you all the truth. By the 15 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: time my students got finished, our person just looked like 16 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: this sexy pirate. They had all kinds of names for 17 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: him that I will spare y'all, but just know they 18 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: were hilarious Captain so and so and whatnot. But what 19 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: they did learn, these non artists is the time that 20 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: it takes, the understanding that it takes to look at 21 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: just a skull and then try to create this missing person. 22 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: It was one of the best exercises ever, even though 23 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: it was just a toy. Tonight we got the real deal. 24 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: We got Joe Mullins. This is part of our Legend series, 25 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: and when I say legend, I mean it. One of 26 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: the most important thing Joe is doing with his time 27 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: and talents. He's teaching the next generation. For twenty five years, 28 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: he has created images that have helped id people that 29 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: have gone missing, those that have been recovered with no name. 30 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: Joe has studied at the Savannah Art of College and Design. 31 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 1: He attended the FBI Academy. He also uses his skills 32 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: to predict what famous people's children might look like. In 33 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, he predicted what Cap Middleton and Prince William's 34 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: children might look like, which I find extraordinary. He is 35 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: part of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children 36 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: and I do not think his talent could be utilized 37 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: any better. The power of art in cold cases was 38 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: in full force at this year's Crime con Let me 39 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: tell y'all something about Booth twenty five. I have never 40 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: in my life witnessed just a miracle in action. Joe's talent, 41 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: his god given gift, in my opinion, was on full display. 42 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: He takes a skull day one, and by the time 43 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: that crime con is finished, there is a person, There 44 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: is a face, there is somebody so recognizable. If you 45 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,119 Speaker 1: know this person, that this case is going to be 46 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: solved by that person getting their name back. So ladies 47 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, please help me welcome Joe Mullins. 48 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: Sure, thank you so much. That was one of the 49 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 2: more flattering introductions I think I've ever received in my career. 50 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: Thank you. I was smiling ear to ear over here. 51 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: Well, I'm telling you my daughter Caroline and I you 52 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: saw us multiple times at crime Con. I couldn't even 53 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: speak to you. I didn't even want to interrupt for 54 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: one second. Your genius because what I was watching was 55 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: just beyond anything I had ever seen. And you are 56 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: talented and you can sculp, there's no question about it. 57 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: But when you're talking about here's a skulp, and if 58 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: you had fifty of them, can you really see a 59 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: whole lot of differences? You know what I mean. But 60 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: you took it, and here's what I saw. In my mind. 61 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that skull is evidence. How does he have 62 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: that skull? So let's talk about that first, Where and 63 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: how do you have these skulls? 64 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: There's a lot of that goes on behind the scenes 65 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: to pull off, you know, being there at crime Con 66 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: it was one of four full time forensic artists at 67 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: the National Center for missaink Sported Children. It took the 68 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 2: whole team to pull that off. And what's because ultimately 69 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: I can't investigators, medical examiners don't want do you want 70 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: me to travel with a human remains an actual skull. 71 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 2: So we've utilized the technology as available today, so we 72 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: use a Sometimes you have to exhume the remains and 73 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 2: work with the investigators, the Emmy's office corners, and then 74 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: find now that we have this goal and now we 75 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: need to get a scan done of it. So we 76 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 2: circle the around with the AME's offices and find a 77 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: hospital that's willing to donate their time and energy to 78 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: do a CT scan of a skull. And that's always 79 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: an interesting phone call talking to some calling cold calling 80 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 2: the radiology department and explaining I'm a forensic artist, Can 81 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: I come scan a skull at your CT scanner. Once 82 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 2: we get all those ducks in a row, then it's 83 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: just a matter of getting then facilitating a three D 84 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: print of the skull and then going through the process 85 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: of you know, reconstructing the face you know, back on 86 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 2: there and hopes to get that victim identified. So there's 87 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: even that was a you know, a shortened version of 88 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 2: everything that goes into pulling pulling those events off. But 89 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: it's it's such an amazing response to especially there at 90 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: crime Con that we got. It was. It was humbling. 91 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: I my co workers. You We talked to Cal Walsh. 92 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: Uh he was joking, it's like, well, you're just like I, 93 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 2: you know, sort of a you know, celebrities, like this 94 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: is your You're stealing the spotlight here. It's all all 95 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: about you now. It was it was just amazing. That 96 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 2: was I couldn't ask for a better response from the 97 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: attendees there at the crime Con because that's not where 98 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: they They were only interesting and listening to every hanging 99 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: on every word that I was saying as I was 100 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 2: explaining what I was doing and the nuances of the skull. 101 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 2: But they were truly I think everybody that I talked 102 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 2: to came back around on that last day to take 103 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: pictures of the finished facial approximation to help, you know, 104 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 2: blast it out on social media to help get get 105 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: her identified. It was truly amazing. So it's very very 106 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 2: humbling experience. 107 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: And again Callahan Walsh could not have been more gracious 108 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: and genuine and hey, please come back and take a 109 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: picture like he was promoting the whole thing as well, 110 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: which to me, the team you're talking about is one 111 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: of the most important things that you can have in 112 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: order for you to be able to do what you 113 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: need to do. 114 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody there, you know, had Christy, you had two 115 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: artists there. Christy was showcasing our age progression technology there 116 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: and she was just as swamped as I was with 117 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: people interested in seeing what we were doing. And really 118 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: everybody else was helping because I couldn't talk to everybody, 119 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: so cal would jump in. We had you know, Reggie, 120 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: you know what, Christine There's everybody was there was helping 121 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: explain what I was doing. So we had that much, 122 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: We had that many people that we needed to that 123 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: we grab their attention with that type of presentation that 124 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: we were doing. It was just I was blown away. 125 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: I'm I'm still blown away just you know, talking about 126 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 2: it now and just kind of reliving it. It was 127 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 2: It was truly amazing. I think that's that case. It's 128 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: going to get solved because of the attends and the 129 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: tension that it got. 130 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: And how in the world do you ever meet or 131 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: work with, or just be in the vicinity of Angeline 132 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: Hartman and not fall in love with her. 133 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: Won't even know where to begin. See, I'm in a 134 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: loss for words. Held just amazing she is, and not 135 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: only a friend, she's such such an advocate and supporter 136 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: of what we do, you know, working with the media 137 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 2: team there at the National Center, the Forensic Imaging Unit 138 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: has it's a very visual unit and it gets a 139 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: lot of media attention, as it should, and we wanted 140 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: to have to see that in an egotistical way, but 141 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 2: we want Carara doesn't have to be on me. We 142 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 2: want it to be it on these these age progressions 143 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: or these facial approximations we're doing. They're interesting stories and 144 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 2: we can use that to our advantage to get them 145 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: out to as many eyes as possible, and Angeline is 146 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: always seeing the benefit of that, and it's just she 147 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: produced a video with one of the classes I did 148 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: at the New York Academy of Art back in twenty fifteen, 149 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: and I was there it was my class and after 150 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: watching her video and she put made me cry. 151 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: She's extraordinary. 152 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: I have Angeline, you know, my fellow artists, everybody at 153 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 2: the National Center at I mean been there twenty five years. 154 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: There everybody says it's like family. It's more than family 155 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: that those it's the people with the shared compassion of 156 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: helping missing and exploited children. It's just just an amazing 157 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: experience to be around those people. 158 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: You know. I tell people all the time when they 159 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: ask me, how after forty years have you not burnt out? 160 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: Your answer is the reason because I'm surrounded by heroes. 161 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: Every day. I literally get to watch the best that 162 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: there is operate, and I don't know how in the 163 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: world you would ever burn out from that. So I 164 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: hear you. I mean, I know who you're working with. 165 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: Callahan Walsh is one of my favorite people. Angeline Heartman. 166 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I've known her for years and years and 167 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: she has only gotten better. I mean, it's remarkable. And 168 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: then of course you, you know, making you a part of 169 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: my Zone seven was so easy, you know, not just 170 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: and again, not just the skill. It's not like you're 171 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: just watching the best that there is. When you talk 172 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: about compassion. That's not something you can teach. And I 173 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: would imagine that you and your students from New York 174 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: to Virginia to Florida. You know, most of these folks 175 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: that have a gift in being a sculptor, they probably 176 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: never as a child, thought I'm going to be involved 177 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: in solving a cold case. But yet here they're offering 178 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: their time and talents in a way that was never 179 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: on their radar. But because they do care, here they. 180 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: Are teaching is something that I never really thought that 181 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 2: I would get into career wise, but it is. I 182 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: think it's the cool I always say, with annoying frequency, 183 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: the coolest job in the world being able to teach. 184 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: And there's a moll mark and see everybody's their interests. 185 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: You know, day one, it's you know, kind of explaining 186 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 2: the class, but as the as the week, depending on 187 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 2: the workshop or class that I'm doing the full semester. 188 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: But there's a time where there's a switch that goes 189 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: off and everybody it's really the time when the face 190 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: starts to develop on the skull that they're working on. 191 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 2: It's not just a skull now, it's a person, and 192 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 2: there's just a mood swing in the whole room where 193 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: everybody is silent or getting real close to their the 194 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 2: face that their sculpting there are attacked and they get it. 195 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: There's a switch that goes on they have and that 196 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: for me, that was like, I feel like I've done 197 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 2: something just like you said, It's it's inspiring to me 198 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: to be able to pass that on because I'm the 199 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: passion and the compassion and the energy that I you 200 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 2: know give, you know, like, it's just truly amazing to 201 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 2: be able to pass that on. And it's a it's 202 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 2: such a unique field and very few of us out there, 203 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 2: so having the opportunity to pass it on to the 204 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: next generation we need artists, don't let the technology hasn't 205 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 2: come that far yet, whether it's an easy button or 206 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 2: AI generated facial approximations might get there one day. Whether 207 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: it's not there yet. 208 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about how this job can be difficult. 209 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: So with the skull, I understand there's like twenty three 210 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: separate bones. Oftentimes with crime you're going to have some 211 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: blunt borce trauma. You get to have a bullet hole, 212 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: you could have a knife wound, all of these unique issues. 213 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: How do you go about starting this face with this skull, 214 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: where do you personally start? 215 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: That's definitely one of the more horrific aspects of being 216 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 2: a friends of artists. When somebody's asking me what I do. 217 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: They're doing mostly intrigued with the the process and the 218 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: end results, but what really goes on behind the scenes, 219 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 2: you know, the reality is that we're dealing with you 220 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 2: know this, these children, especially there at the day job 221 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: there at the National Center for Missing Exported Children, and 222 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 2: I was holding a skull of a ten year old 223 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: with you know, multiple gunshots or blunt force trauma. It 224 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 2: could go on and all kinds of horrible adjectives to 225 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 2: describe to that, but that just, I guess, motivates me 226 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: to help give this this person their identity back and 227 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: work on that face. As an artist, I'm approaching it 228 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 2: as you know, my fine art, you know, painting, drawing, sculpting. 229 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: The foundation helped get me in the door, but it's 230 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 2: really working side by side with the medical examiner and 231 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: particularly a forensic anthropologist. Now, the forensic anthropologist is one 232 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 2: who adds the science aspect of it, because there's that 233 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: combination of art and science, and that's where the science 234 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: comes from. Where they pick up the skull and can 235 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 2: tell you amazing details about you know, the age range, 236 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: the ancestry, female, and just all the distinguishing characteristics, everything 237 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: that makes you you, It is etched into your skull. 238 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: So it's you know, said all this had fifty skulls, 239 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: so that'd be fifty different faces. There's so many details 240 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: that are involved in reconstructing the face, and it's just 241 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: fascinating to me that all that translates into your soft tissue, 242 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: because you think about it, your your skull is the 243 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: foundation that you are built on. It's it's everything that's 244 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 2: holding up. Everything about you is under underneath there that 245 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: skulls holding it up. So you know, to translate that 246 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 2: and put the reconstruct that face back on there is 247 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: And sometimes I'm just amazed at how when we see 248 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: the when these cases are resolved, when we get to 249 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: see photographs of what these people look like in life, 250 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 2: it is just mind boggling how how accurate some of 251 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: these faces are. It's just I just love love my job. 252 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: I think it's doing doing God's work, I guess for 253 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: I think this is what I was meant meant to do. 254 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about it. And 255 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: anybody that got to watch you at crime Con saw it, 256 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: felt it, understood it. It was absolutely undeniable what we 257 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: were watching. When do you start to really see the face, 258 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: Like not just I'm in the process of molding a 259 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: cheekbone or I'm going to put some eyebrows, but when 260 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: do you know that person is looking back at you. 261 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: The starting point is it's just now, it's just a skull, 262 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: and I have, you know, the facts in front of me. 263 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: It's a Caucasian female, late teens, early twenties. And then 264 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: as I start, you know, basically work from the top down, 265 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: scope the muscles first and add the tissue depth markers 266 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: to get the landmarks for how much flesh to put 267 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: on the skull. And I worked from the top down, 268 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: so it's typically by time I get the forehead and 269 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: I set the eyes in the orbits and draw the 270 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 2: irises on and I know scp the nose. That's when 271 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: it's it's not a skull. And now there's there's a 272 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: set of eyes, you know, staring back at me. And 273 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 2: to add to that, and so I know, the question 274 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 2: was like, how do you know when you're done? So 275 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: when I have to put that last It's like an 276 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: artist or a painter when you put that last brush brushstrokes, 277 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: Like when do you put your brush downs? Like how 278 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: do you know when you're done? And I said, for me, 279 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: I stop when I see somebody staring back at me. 280 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: So that's it happens with every single case. 281 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: We get that. 282 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: I get that same same feelings right by the time 283 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 2: I get the eyes and then the nose on and 284 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: because that's sorts of fill out the face, and then 285 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 2: it's I think I probably go faster at that point 286 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: because then I just want to I just want to 287 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: see that completed face. 288 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: Well, I know at Crome Con, I was watching you 289 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: for a little bit and you were taking so just 290 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: great care and concern right at the cheek, and then 291 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: you went down and you probably spent I don't know, 292 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: I want to say, ten minutes just on the left 293 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,479 Speaker 1: side of the jawline, and you kept just smoothing and 294 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: smoothing with this little instrument. I mean, it just looked 295 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: like almost a flat rock and you were barely touching it, 296 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: but it did change that expression. It was the most 297 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: unbelievable thing. And I know Carolina, and I kept saying, 298 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: I want to ask him all these questions, but I 299 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: just didn't want to bust into your rhythm. And I thought, 300 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: I'm just glad to snatch him later because I just 301 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: have to know some things. So why don't you tell us? 302 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: You know, why are lips so difficult for a sculpture? 303 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: For it was kind of eye opening for me when 304 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,239 Speaker 2: I started teaching classes. I teach a graduate class at 305 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 2: George Mason University in the forensic science department. These aren't 306 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: they're not necessarily artists. These are a crime see investigators. 307 00:17:55,359 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 2: But they they take this class and the one, the 308 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: one feature that I know that everybody struggled with that's 309 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: not really a sculptor or an artist's lips. Lips seemed 310 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 2: to be the most across the board, the most difficult 311 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: feature to sculpt. Blew my mind. I was just like, 312 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 2: why it's lips? Like it was like I remember hating ears. 313 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 2: But I I'm a sculptor, artist by by trade, so 314 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 2: I've conquered conquered that pretty quickly. But it's always it's 315 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: always the lips, you know, you think about it, it's it. 316 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 2: It's a very simple. I think it looks like a 317 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: very simple formed to sculpt. But I think that's why 318 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 2: it's so it's it's so subtle that people either overdo 319 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: it and you get like I get a lot of 320 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: duck clips, like puckered up clips. 321 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: Just grabbing the play and squeezing it. 322 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they grab so I used I came up 323 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 2: with an example of I'm trying to I was wondering, 324 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,239 Speaker 2: why is it across the board. The first of all, 325 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 2: they're very flat, their flat lips, and they and everybody 326 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 2: pinched pinches their fingers to get like a real sharp 327 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: edge around around to I guess to find the outline 328 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: of the lips. But if we were if I would 329 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: have asked you right now to draw a set of lips, 330 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: that's exactly what you would draw, just a line, be 331 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 2: like the just a very simple basic drawing. But that 332 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 2: that is what people think lips look like. And then 333 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 2: if they draw it that way, that's how they're going 334 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 2: to sculpt. It's very flat and has that that puckered 335 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: up that's an outline. Fascinating to me that the lips 336 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 2: is always such a struggle. It's all go Usually on 337 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 2: lip day, what it's called lip service day, I go 338 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: we have a practice exercise and make them sculpt the 339 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 2: set of lips just outside of the you know, different 340 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: separated from the work that they're doing for their their skull, 341 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 2: and I say, if you're gonna do anything horrible or wrong, 342 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 2: do it, do it on this practice set of lips. 343 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 2: Then we go through and do it on the actual 344 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 2: skull and it's all basically the rest of the day 345 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: for that day when it we're doing ellipse, all I 346 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 2: do is usually max out around fifteen students. All I 347 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 2: do is sculpt, keep sculpting lips over and over because 348 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 2: I'll gather nobody around and demonstrate on how to do 349 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: it on the skull that I'm working on. I was like, Okay, 350 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 2: we're going to go back and try it, and then 351 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 2: from that moment on, I'm just fixing, fixing the lips 352 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: the entire class. 353 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: That's amazing. Well, as you know, I have the opportunity 354 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: and the gift of working with Kelly Lawson with the 355 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: Georgia Bureau of Investigation, and if it's a victim that 356 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: I've taken to her that has witnessed something or was 357 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: a victim of something that she's going to describe the perpetrator. 358 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: Kelly normally asked them, does this person remind you of 359 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: anybody famous? Like, is there a base I can start with? 360 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: And I find the way that she takes somebody that 361 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: you know maybe says yes, they look like X, Y 362 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: or Z. Then she starts to start drawing as they're talking, 363 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: and of course the eyebrows are imported in the ears 364 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: and the nose in the mouth and all that, and 365 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: before long, like you say, there is somebody staring back 366 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: at her, and the victim can then kind of, you know, 367 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: craft and move and change slightly to alter it until 368 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: they get to the person. And that's when the victim 369 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: or the witness goes, that's him, you know, or that's her. 370 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: You don't have that ability. You don't have that gift 371 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: of having somebody say, well, this is what they look like. 372 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: You're working from literally nothing and then hoping that what 373 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: you have come up with looks like a missing person. 374 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 2: I have to give credits credit. Kelly and her mom, 375 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: Marla are two of the most talented artists I've ever seen, 376 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 2: and of composite drawings that they do unbelievable and of 377 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: course remarkably successful with those images. But just like the 378 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: composite sketches, they do. We always say, as we as 379 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 2: do these, We're never going to come up with a 380 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 2: portrait of what that who that person that victim is 381 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: describing to the Kelly and I'm never going to come 382 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: up with a exact likeness of what this victim look like, 383 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 2: you know, sculpting working for a skull, But we found 384 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: forensic arts. One of my good friends and mentor, Steve Mankouzi, 385 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: was retired NYPD composite artist. Still his quote he said, 386 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: as a forensic artist, we live in a wonderful world 387 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 2: of almost is good enough where we don't have to 388 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 2: come up with the portraits. But still the main key 389 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: to everything we do as friends of art with composite 390 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: sketches or facial approximations, it doesn't work unless the right 391 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 2: person sees it. So the works that Kelly does, you know, 392 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 2: the drawings like somebody's that the victim says, that's that's him. 393 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 2: Now they have to take that back and match it 394 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 2: up to you know, like mug shots or you know, 395 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: rest photos, or do their due diligence. But that's it's 396 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 2: the same process with these facial approximations. We want I 397 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: want to get it out through as many eyes as 398 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 2: possible and help get these victims identified, help get those 399 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: those bad guys off the street, all because of forensic art. 400 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 2: So it's that's why, I'm sure sure Kelly probably says 401 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 2: the same thing. She's got the coolest, coolest job in 402 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 2: the world. She gets to help bad guys and help 403 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: the answer some questions for families. It's pretty cool. 404 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: It is pretty cool. Is there a case that sticks 405 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: with you, like, is there a skull where maybe you've 406 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: gotten a face looking back at you, but nobody reported 407 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: a child missing that fits that in that area or. 408 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 2: Back when we would actually receive the skulls and in 409 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: the mayo when it would ship into us and we did, 410 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: there was that. It's just a horrible the blunt force trauma. 411 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 2: There was the case they would call it the the 412 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 2: barrel case. I was a mom and two of her 413 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 2: daughters and there was a third. 414 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: Child. 415 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 2: So the mother and her two daughters ended up getting identified. 416 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: It was a Terry rass Mussen. That's serial killer. It 417 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 2: is from Vermont. So the the mom and her two 418 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 2: daughters got identified, but there was that third child who 419 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 2: do DNA. They realized that it was the father was 420 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 2: the killer. But they still don't know, they don't know 421 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: who she is. And that's that case is just we 422 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 2: have you know, there's four victims, we have three of 423 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 2: the four. I really want to give that poor little 424 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 2: girl her name back. That was one that sticks with me. 425 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: I think it was mostly because we actually that's back 426 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: when we I got this physically see the blunt force strama. 427 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 2: I mean they were murdered and stuffed in barrels, and 428 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: that that's just one that that I really really want 429 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 2: to get that give that little girl her her name back. 430 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 2: We have four children, and the youngest ones were about 431 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: the same age as some of those victims, so that 432 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 2: that one really struck struck home. But that's it's the 433 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: same emotional response really with all these these cases, and 434 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: it gives me. That's just the literally drives me to 435 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 2: do this type of work because at these it's it's 436 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: somebody's somebody's daughter, I mean, somebody's son, somebody's somebody's mom, 437 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 2: somebody's dad. These cases that we're working on, it's not 438 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 2: it's not just a pile of bone. It's somebody that 439 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: deserves the dignity of their identity back. And there's a 440 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: family that's out there have been frozen and uncertainty for 441 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 2: sometimes five, ten, fifteen, twenty years, and these are you know, 442 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: the coldest of the cold cases. So have the ability 443 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 2: to answer those questions and relieve some of that just 444 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: the emotional trauma is It is a very rewarding job, 445 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: but that's not why we do it. 446 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: You have had some success, and so have some of 447 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: your students in class with you. Can you talk a 448 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: little bit about some of the cases that were solved 449 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: because of y'all's efforts. 450 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 2: There's a great one we have. Her name was Stephanie 451 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: Cassada from Southgate, California. Now, we ended up with the 452 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 2: with the skull. We were I think our case managers 453 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 2: were in touch with the medical examiner out there, and 454 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: this around the time we had a new we upgraded 455 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: our technology. We did our We don't work in clay 456 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 2: there at the office. We do have a software that 457 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 2: reads that CT scan of the skull and imports it 458 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 2: into the software and you know, the skulls floating around 459 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: there in that virtual space, so we do it. That's 460 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 2: that way. We're digital now. But we had we had 461 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 2: that new technology and the medical examiner investigator had this 462 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 2: skull that they had a composite was done, a two 463 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 2: D composite and pencil was done for the case when 464 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 2: it was salt when it was originally found discovered, but 465 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 2: it was three years earlier, so the skull was still 466 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: there and there was no leads, no phone calls had 467 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 2: resulted from that sketch that they had done. So the 468 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: medical examiners say, hey, you have a new technology, want 469 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 2: you to take this one and see what you see 470 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: what you can do with it. So we went through 471 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 2: the process. We had doctor David Hunt, our anthropologists come 472 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 2: in assess the skull and then they did actually send 473 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 2: the physical skull to us. And then doctor Hunt had 474 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 2: a CT scanner. He actually worked at the Smithsonian Museum 475 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: in DC and they had a CT scanner there, so 476 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 2: he would he was a full service he was a 477 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: board certified forensic anthropologist and he would go and take 478 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: the skull to be scanned. So when he when he 479 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 2: got there, he pulls the skull out of the box, 480 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 2: he said, this is a you know, it's fascinating. I 481 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 2: don't know if you've ever set with a forensic anthropologist 482 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: and listen to what they can say by just holding 483 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 2: a skull on her hand absolutely, So he's he's got 484 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 2: my pencil and paper out and he said, okay, this 485 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: is a you know, we start start the timer. He said, 486 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: this is a black Hispanic female, late teens, early twenties. 487 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: He pulls a pencil out of his pocket and he's 488 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 2: stabbing it inside the nasal aperture and kind of just 489 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: just tapping it around, poking until he's got his thinking 490 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: cap on. But it's for me. It seemed like a long, 491 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: long silence, you know, like cue of the Jeopardy music, 492 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: because I'm wait for him to say something. So he 493 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: puts his pencil. Finally, he puts his pencil back in 494 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: his pocket and he sets the skull down. He snaps 495 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 2: his fingers. He's Dion Warwick. I remember I had my 496 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: pencil in my hand and I actually put a D 497 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: on the beat. I was like, wait a minute, you 498 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: told me that's Dion Warwick's skulls Like, I'm like, you're 499 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: horrible at this. I'm pretty sure she's still alive. And 500 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 2: he's like, no, no, no, no, I'm telling you this 501 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 2: is this person has Dion Warwick's nos. Yeah, so think 502 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 2: about how many millions of faces have you seen in 503 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 2: your lifetime and doctor Hunt is looking at this skull 504 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 2: and he's looking at the nasal aperture and he's like, oh, yeah, 505 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: that's I see Dion Warwick's nose there. So the best 506 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 2: way to can explain what doctor Hunt, or you know, 507 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 2: a forensic anthro policy says, when they they've looked at 508 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 2: so many skulls, they're done with the facial approximation in 509 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 2: their head. Instantly they can they can see that, and 510 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: that's that's what he's able to do. He's looking at 511 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: a skull and he sees Dion Warwick's news, which that's 512 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 2: just mind boggling to me. So go through the process. 513 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 2: And because I didn't know who Dion Warwick was, thank 514 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 2: god for Google Images, so I pulled up he found 515 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 2: the pictures. Like, that's that's what our nose looks like. So, 516 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 2: you know, black, Hispanic female, late teens, early twenties, Dion 517 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: Warwick's news. It's a lot of detail I had in 518 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: front of me. So I go through the process, put 519 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 2: the put the face together. Now, the investigator and the 520 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 2: medical examiner planned a like a press conference to introduce 521 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: this new image for this for this cold case. So 522 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: they targeted the area around where the body was found. 523 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: And the first stop on the media tour was in 524 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: like a town hall setting where a local city councilmen 525 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 2: were vi to tend the press conference. Basically it was 526 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: in their in their building, so they're setting up the meeting. 527 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: They'd blown up the image that I created and you know, 528 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: sitting on the easel in front of the room, and 529 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 2: one of the city councilman were the first one person 530 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: to walk into the room. He walked over, helped himself 531 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: to a cup of coffee and a donut, walked over 532 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: to the investigator and a medical examiner who was standing 533 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: in front of the blown up picture that I had, 534 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: the image that I created for this case, and he's like, hey, 535 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: it's this meeting about Stephanie Casada. Wow. So the investigators 536 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: like puzzled and looking at him. It's like, I'm sorry, 537 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about. And he's like, well, 538 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: hold on a second. So he sat set his coffee 539 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: and doughnut down and just walked out of the room 540 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 2: and they're kind of looking around and it was like anybody. 541 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: Know who that was? 542 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 2: Like, what's he just talking about? So he walked over 543 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: across the hall to his office, walked into his office, 544 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 2: pulled down a missing person's flyer, and he helped the 545 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: Casada family pass out, you know, three years earlier, because 546 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: she was missing from his district, and I believe the 547 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: family was out in front, you know, passing out flyers, 548 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 2: and he took one and taped it to the wall 549 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: in his office. So member goes back to that this 550 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: last I checked. There's eight billion people on the planet 551 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: and the right person has to see it. Well, this 552 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: councilman was an expert on Stephanie's face because he stared 553 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: at it every day for three years. So he pulled 554 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 2: it off the wall, walked back over and handed it 555 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: to the investigator. He goes, this is what I'm talking about. Now. 556 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: They got he's got a picture of Stephanie and the 557 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 2: stand in front of the picture I created. He's like, 558 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: holy cow, It's like you have my full attention now. 559 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: So wow, it was compelling enough. The investigator left, went back, 560 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,719 Speaker 2: you know, did some research, found the Casata family, located them, 561 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: showed them that the picture and they agreed, yes, yes, 562 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 2: that looks like our daughter, and the mother identified artifacts 563 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: found with the remains. Mom consented to a DNA swab 564 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 2: An investigator quickly once got back to his office and 565 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 2: faxed over a copy for a driver's sciences record to 566 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: me to the National Center. I was in the lunch 567 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: room by myself, and the case manager walked in and 568 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: just slapped a piece of paper in front of me, 569 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 2: and I pick it up and immediately I was like, oh, 570 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: is this the case from California because it looked just 571 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: like the face I had sculpted. Then he proceeded to 572 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 2: tell me the story. It's like, we're just waiting for 573 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 2: a DNA you confirmation, and I was like, oh, sometimes 574 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: it takes longer than I would like. I'm a very 575 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 2: patient person, but I was still still excited of, you know, 576 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: seeing the similarity, so I was eager to get that 577 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: those results. So while we're waiting for those results, it's 578 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: still an active case, so it's still being disseminated, and 579 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: it's still on our website. Posters are being created, and 580 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 2: somehow it ended up taped to a lamp post there 581 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: in Southgate, California. So somebody saw it, pulled it off 582 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 2: the lamp post and called one eight hundred the Lost 583 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: and said, hey, I've got this poster here in front 584 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 2: of me. I know who this is. That's Stephanie Cassada, 585 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 2: and I know who shot her. So now two people 586 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: have seen that image that we created and given the 587 00:33:55,040 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: name Stephanie Casada, and that's now that family has has 588 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 2: those answers. 589 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: And now I haven't. 590 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 2: I hope I caught the guy who who did it 591 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 2: or individual person who did it. To me, that was 592 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: one of the cases really really shows the collaborative effort 593 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 2: that goes into this this process. You know, maybe might 594 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: find the investigator of the technology, the resources, the National 595 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 2: Center for Missing Sported Children, their website, the poster distribution, 596 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: the hotline, everybody, everybody come together to give that Cassada 597 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 2: family those answers that they did not have prior to 598 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 2: this this whole process. So that really just to me, 599 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 2: that was one of the more interesting success stories for 600 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 2: me personally. And that's that just says it all me minutes. 601 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 2: I've never met the Casada family, but again that's not 602 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 2: why we do it. But I would upon just give 603 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 2: him a hug and say, I hope you let's give 604 00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 2: you some peace. 605 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: Oh, you know, it gave them some answers and like 606 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: with the artifacts, you know, the jewelry, the clothing. You know, 607 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: they know it's her, And I've heard more than one family. 608 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: You know, they always say the not knowing is just 609 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: so excruciating, So there is some comfort in the knowledge 610 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: that you gave them. 611 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 2: I heard you talk about that, the not knowing aspect 612 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 2: from Revee Walsh, and I heard those exact words from 613 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: John Walsh years ago when Americas was one and was 614 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 2: still filming. They came into film an episode there at 615 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 2: the National Center and I was on camera. John was 616 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 2: they were just we were just showcasing what we do 617 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 2: there in the forensic imaging and talking about the age progressions. 618 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 2: So I was I was nervous, so I think it 619 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 2: was my first time on Americans. Was wanted sweating profusely, 620 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 2: probably the worst media interview ever. So John was just great, 621 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 2: very very relaxing. So the cameras rolling comes in. Here's 622 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 2: Joe Mullins, one of our forensic image of specialist. Here, 623 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 2: Joe wants you to explain which we do here. So 624 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 2: I'm clicking through the demo talk about h progression and 625 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: to get to a picture of a skull. And I say, 626 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 2: here with skulls that we stop bringing home a live 627 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: child at least we provide closure for families. John, I 628 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 2: don't think I get the word out of my mouth. 629 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 2: John walls shoes up and yells cut. So he kind 630 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 2: of spun my chair around, had a gray suit, white 631 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,439 Speaker 2: shirt and red tie on. He's leaning over and he's 632 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 2: said to Joe, it's like people say that all the time, 633 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 2: you know, the closure. I don't. I don't like that word. 634 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 2: It's like I'm never, never going to forget my son, 635 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 2: he said. A better way to explain the service that 636 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,800 Speaker 2: the National Centers providing with these with these images is 637 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: you're providing answers to families, he said, because not knowing 638 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 2: as a nightmare, you can't wake up. Oh that was 639 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 2: probably over twenty years ago and make a point to 640 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 2: tell that story and in this realm. I've that was 641 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 2: the last time I ever said close, because he has 642 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 2: every right to. I think that was a perfect explanation 643 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 2: and that was one of the as the top five 644 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 2: moments of my career there at the National Center. At 645 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 2: that moment with John Moss, that was very humbling. 646 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: No, that's pretty good education, right there, no question. And 647 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: you know that family, I mean, what they have done 648 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: through their tragedy is beyond. But one thing that I 649 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: always just knocks me out when I think of, you know, 650 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: Ms Walsh when they're doing the story of Adam and 651 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: they're going to make this movie and she insists that 652 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: current missing children be highlighted at the end. And you know, 653 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: that's one of those things. You know, as a mama, 654 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: you think she should be so uber focused on her 655 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: child and what happened to him and the answers that 656 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: they deserve. Yet she's not. She's focused on as many 657 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: as she possibly can. So again, you know, you have 658 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 1: aligned yourself with I think some of the most extraordinary 659 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: people that are out there because of their capacity to 660 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 1: love and to give and to honor. 661 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 2: I owe it to Adam and the Walsh family to 662 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 2: do everything I can. So No, every family has answers 663 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 2: and every child is brought home. I feel like that's 664 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 2: my that's my job. That's why I love marking. No. 665 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: You asked if I had ever had the opportunity to 666 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: deal with an anthropologist. Well, again, here in Georgia we 667 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: have doctor Alice Gooden, and she, hands down, has provided 668 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: some of the best training that I've had in the 669 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: last forty years. Hands down, I mean she takes us 670 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: out in the woods. We're going to excavate, you know, 671 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: a body of a hog, and we're going to do 672 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: it right, whether it's raining or snowing or in the 673 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: case of my class of tornado warning was underway. And 674 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: then I had the opportunity to go to the body 675 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: Farm and train with doctor Donnie Steadman and Tennessee. Yes, yeah, 676 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: And if you ever want to feel like, you know, 677 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,720 Speaker 1: academically you are subpar, go spend some time with doctor Stedman. 678 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: Good lord, you know, you just leave there just knowing, 679 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: you know, her IQ is a little bit higher than yours. 680 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: But anyway, phenomenal. But here's one thing that I learned 681 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: that I had never thought about prior to that training, 682 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: and that training was ten years ago. She talked specifically 683 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: about skulls from people that had a mixed ethnic background, 684 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: and so she was saying, the skin made tell you 685 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: one thing, but the skull is going to tell you another. 686 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: And so she used, like Keanu Reeves and halle Berry 687 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: and President Obama, that if you only had the skull, 688 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: you may not come up with the same outward appearance. 689 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: Have you ever run across that where you were not 690 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: certain of how to portray the skull. 691 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean it's even with the best forensic 692 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 2: anthropologies out there, which I feel like I have the 693 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 2: opportunity to work with a lot of them, sometimes they're 694 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 2: I don't think doctor Hunt liked this assessment or explanation. 695 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 2: Just to keep I keep things simple. So forensic anthropology 696 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 2: works with the majority rules. So they've looked at, you know, 697 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 2: a thousand skulls and they found eight hundred and fifty. 698 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 2: This is this is how these features translate into you know, 699 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 2: from a skull feature into the soft tissue of an 700 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 2: actual face and everything from you know, of the ad mixtures. 701 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 2: You know, it's like the stepty black Hispanic or white black, 702 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 2: you know, all the ad mixtures are different variations. But 703 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 2: it doesn't put in a right face on there is 704 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's certainly not it's not an exact science, 705 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 2: not the downplay there, but it's sometimes you have to 706 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 2: do the best with what the information you have and 707 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 2: go go forward from there and still with that hopes 708 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 2: that you've got some feature right that somebody can see 709 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 2: it and say, you know, hey, that's that kind of 710 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 2: looks like my you know, uncle, I haven't seen him 711 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 2: in ten years, and that's that's really the best that 712 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 2: counts as a success in our book. That's back to that. 713 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 2: The almost is almost as good enough. But when you 714 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 2: start breaking down to the skulls, there's lots of skulls 715 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 2: that have the ancestry, and there's difference between you know, race, ethnicity, 716 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,360 Speaker 2: and ancestry. So think of a bag of jelly beans. 717 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,439 Speaker 2: So race would be the color of the jelly bean, 718 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 2: Ethnicity would be the flavor of the jelly bean. An 719 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,879 Speaker 2: ancestry would be the factory where the jelly beans were made. 720 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 2: So when you're looking at a skull, you're thinking about 721 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 2: it was more ancestry, just the facts. But as we 722 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 2: start putting that face on there, so say it's like 723 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 2: a black Hispanic. Now Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race, 724 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 2: but that's a term that most people are familiar with. 725 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 2: Makes that switch from ances street can now I say, 726 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 2: we have to get to hit that target that parameters 727 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 2: of the details we have in front of us. So 728 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 2: it has to look like a Hispanic person, or it 729 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 2: has to look or it has to look like a 730 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 2: Caucasian person. It's a balance sometimes like how far do 731 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 2: you take the details or how you have to work 732 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 2: with a restricted artistic license. Basically, you have to let 733 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,919 Speaker 2: the skull tell you. If the skull or the anthropologist 734 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 2: isn't in telling you what to do, then you you 735 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 2: can't do it. I can't do it. I can't go 736 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 2: off the rails and put on my artistic hat and 737 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 2: make it look pretty not accurate. 738 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: And that's the deal. We're back to that team. We're 739 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 1: back to those people that you trust to tell you 740 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: this is what you have and that's all you can 741 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:18,479 Speaker 1: you know, put into your work. 742 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 2: There's been cases with you know, the three main ancestor 743 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,879 Speaker 2: groups are are black, White, and Asian, and there's been 744 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 2: you know, hundreds of skulls that have had all three 745 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 2: of those characteristics. So what how do you how do 746 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 2: you represent that face? You know, with the ad mixture 747 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 2: you touched on you like COUNTA Reeves, President Obama, Helly Berry. 748 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 2: Those are all great beautiful faces, you know, but that's 749 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,800 Speaker 2: that's there's a lot of the ad mixture. So it's stuff. 750 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 2: So for us, we always like checks and Ballet will 751 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 2: do a buddy check or ask our fellow artists to 752 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 2: take a look at it. We'll send it back to 753 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 2: whatever anthropologist or medical exammer we're working with just to 754 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 2: make sure we're put in that right face, the best 755 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 2: face out there, because ultimately, as a forensic artist, we're 756 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 2: the last phone call. They've they've exhausted every other resource 757 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 2: at their disposal and they bring it to us. So 758 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 2: we've got to make we've got to get it right 759 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 2: and put the best face out there and over the 760 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 2: accurate face that helps, that sparks that recognition. 761 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, your job is like mine. I'm the last one called, 762 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: and I think you know, I tell people all the time, 763 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: I'm not a first responder. I'm a last responder, and 764 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: I think there's not only a little pressure added sometimes, 765 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 1: but I think there's a great responsibility because we are 766 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: the last shot. 767 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,399 Speaker 2: That's why I mean, I'm gonna do my job. I can't. 768 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 2: There's never been a time in twenty five years I've 769 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,439 Speaker 2: woken up like I have to go to work today 770 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 2: and that feeling of dread, it's always that thought has 771 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 2: never crossed my mind. That's if I don't do my 772 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 2: job right, that's that family might not ever get the answer, 773 00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 2: so that that child might not ever get home. So 774 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 2: I always do my job as to the best of 775 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 2: my abilities and make sure I ever become complacent and 776 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,760 Speaker 2: always always a better way to do it. So hopefully 777 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 2: I'm always learning and improving, and I'll keep doing it. 778 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 2: I was joking with somebody recently at work, so have 779 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,399 Speaker 2: you been there for twenty five years? I guess it's 780 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 2: like I think I'm probably gonna be one of those 781 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 2: people just die at my desk. That'd be okay with me. 782 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 1: I would die happy, sure, understood, understood. People ask me 783 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: all the time, you're not retired for what I ain't 784 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: made to fish all day, Let's go. I want to 785 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: get in the middle of it. Unfortunately we have that, 786 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: And you know, I tell people all the time, you 787 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: know you you need to be so grateful when somebody 788 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: says they love what they do, when it's something that 789 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: other people just can't. I mean, Joe, we can not 790 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: do what you do. I'm never going to be an artist. 791 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,359 Speaker 1: I'm never going to be able to draw or pain 792 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,399 Speaker 1: or sculpt or any of that. But you know, thank 793 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: the good Lord, you not only can do it, but 794 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: are willing to use it in this way. 795 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 2: Very fortunate. My mom always says, you shit early on 796 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 2: in my career. I'm so proud of you, So you 797 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 2: do it. Art art with a purpose, That is what 798 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,320 Speaker 2: it is. I can't stress enough how important it is 799 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 2: to take take a moment and look at those pictures. 800 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,879 Speaker 2: And we get so busy doing everything else in our 801 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,839 Speaker 2: in our lives and get distracted. But that I said 802 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,120 Speaker 2: early on, everything we create, it doesn't work unless the 803 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,279 Speaker 2: right person sees it. So take a moment to share 804 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 2: those images on social media. We get out as many 805 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 2: people as possible, because if you haven't gone through that's 806 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 2: the trauma or horrible now of not knowing where your 807 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 2: child is. That's it's a horrible thing and we don't 808 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,280 Speaker 2: want anybody to go through that just because we haven't 809 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,400 Speaker 2: gone through it. I think that's just something that we 810 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:19,439 Speaker 2: need to reassure ourselves and make sure that we don't 811 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 2: ever have to go through that, and make sure do 812 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 2: everything we can to help those that are going through 813 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 2: it by being more proactive looking at those pictures, you know, 814 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,800 Speaker 2: picking up the phone, call, if you see something, do something, 815 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,640 Speaker 2: you make a difference, get involved. Don't let any you know, 816 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,319 Speaker 2: skull sit on a shelf unidentified, or let some little 817 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 2: boy or little girl get abducted and take it away 818 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,720 Speaker 2: from their family for five, ten, fifteen years. That's doesn't 819 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,359 Speaker 2: have to be that way. I think we can all 820 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 2: pitch in and let's get all the children home and 821 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 2: all the skulls identified. I'm gonna keep doing it until 822 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,280 Speaker 2: somebody tells me to sty or my wife fakes me retire. 823 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: Well, Joe Mowens, I cannot thank you enough for being 824 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: with us on Zone seven tonight, and I can't thank 825 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,320 Speaker 1: you enough for being a part of my Zone seven. 826 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 2: This has been truly amazing. I've been looking forward to 827 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 2: this for some time now, and anything, anything you need 828 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 2: from me, you just let me know and I'll I'll 829 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 2: get it done. 830 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: Well. I appreciate you, and we're going to add a 831 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 1: link to this episode that goes straight to some of 832 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 1: your work so people can start looking at these faces 833 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 1: and hopefully let's bring somebody home. As Joe has said 834 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,840 Speaker 1: multiple times, it just takes one person, the right person 835 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: to see the right image and then we have something solid. 836 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all it takes. Just be that one person. 837 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,560 Speaker 1: Be that one person. Amen. I'm going to end Zone 838 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 1: seven the way that I always do with a quote. 839 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,840 Speaker 1: At first, it was a bit eerie for the students 840 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: as they unpacked the skull Replicans. What about four days 841 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:04,920 Speaker 1: into the class, something changed. Students were no longer looking 842 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: at a skull, a relatively abstract concept of a human, 843 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: but a person. John Volt, director of the New York 844 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:19,440 Speaker 1: Academy of Art. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.