1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh, and 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: there's Chuck and there's Jerry again sitting in for producer 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Dave ce. Uh. And this is short stuff. As I've 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: already said, that's right, and we're talking about books. What 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: is a book? What isn't a book? That book in 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: the window, the one with the waggony tail, That's right. 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: Do we get going? I thought we already had, but yes, 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: let's keep going. So there's this book in in the 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: National Museum of History in Bulgaria, and uh, it is 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: what some people consider the oldest book in the world. 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Have you seen pictures of it. It's six pages of 12 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: gold sheet, like the pages are gold and not like 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: they took paper and put gold around it or the 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: edges are gilded. It is like a sheet of gold 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: metal and there's six pages like that and they're bound together. Um. 16 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: And it's written in a Truscan and uh. The Etruscans 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: were the direct predecessors to the Romans. They kind of 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: ran the area. I think that hey days around five 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: b C. And they're kind of this mysterious group because 20 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: we haven't deciphered their their writing yet, but we know 21 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: that this is a is in a Truscan book, and 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: so a lot of people say, there you have it, everybody. 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: The oldest book in the world is called the gold 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: Orphism Book, and this is it. Yes, it is actual, 25 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: multiple pages, like you said, it is bound. There are illustrations. 26 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: There's a mermaid and a harp and some soldiers and 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: a horse rider. And you know that. They say this 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: thing is years old. They found it along a river, 29 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: the Strauma River in southwestern Bulgaria and a tomb. It 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: was donated. This is all kind of mysterious. It was 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: donated by an anonymous person and then authenticated by two 32 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: anonymous scientists. Yeah, little sketchy. It sounds like aliens to me. 33 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: But the debate then started, well, that's not true. There's 34 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,839 Speaker 1: always been debates about what is the oldest this, what's 35 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: the oldest that, what's the oldest book? And if you 36 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: think about oldest book, it becomes a little bit of 37 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: an esoteric question because you have to ask yourself what 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: is a book? Could it be a clay tablet or 39 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: a scroll, or you know, can it be something that 40 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: is an exit like doesn't tell a story, it's just 41 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: like accounting records. So you really have to sort of 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: define what a book is first. Yeah, So I mean 43 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people would define a book by its 44 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: physical attributes, right, Like it's a certain shape, Um, it's 45 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: bound together. That's a big one for a lot of people. Um. 46 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: Some people say it has to be on paper, which 47 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: would um discount the gold Orphism book. Um. And then 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: other people say, well, no, no, no, it's just got 49 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: to like tell a story, say, and it can be 50 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: on anything and it doesn't have to be bound together. 51 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: And this is when everybody goes, oh boy, here we go. 52 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: Becomes another debate on what constitutes a book. Yeah, but 53 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: it's not an angry debate, is it. No, it's not angry. 54 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: But yet I'm angered by it because I think it's 55 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: largely unnecessary. And there is a person cited in this 56 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 1: House to Works article who I suspect purposefully obfuskates this 57 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: and initiates this debate because they don't want this question 58 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: ever to be answered. Are you talking about Laurent Ferry m. Yeah. 59 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: This is a curator of rare books and manuscripts at 60 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: Cornell and Cornell and they were actually interviewed for this 61 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: House stuff Works article about eleven years ago and Cornell 62 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: is in possession of these clay tablets that they maintain 63 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: the largest in the world. And uh, they're pretty old. 64 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: And some people might say, well, those are books, but 65 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: most of those, like I said about like tax records, 66 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: their financial records, legal proceedings. Uh, they don't espouse any worldview, 67 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 1: so I think they're in that means they are not books. Yeah, 68 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: Lauren Ferry says, a book would be something that has 69 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: a binding and that espouses a worldview, right, So yeah, 70 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: you can discount those um clay tablets there there. They 71 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: just don't They don't count as a book, but to 72 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: other people they would count as a book. So so 73 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: they said, well, okay, Lauren Ferry, what what is the 74 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: oldest book then? And Fairy said, either Homer's Iliad or 75 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: the Epic of Gilgamesh. The problem is, and this is 76 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: where I think Lauren Ferry is purposefully doing this just 77 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: to keep this debate going because they like to talk 78 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: about this kind of stuff. So the Epic of Gilgamesh 79 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: the oldest is a very old book. Um, the British 80 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: Museum has one, but it's written on clay tablets from 81 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: the seventh century b C. And yeah, it's not bound. 82 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: So the very example that this curator gave as the 83 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: oldest book doesn't even fall within their own parameter. And 84 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: here's where I started getting angry. All right, Well, let's 85 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: take a break then for you hulk out and hulk smash, 86 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: and we'll be right back to Well, we're not gonna 87 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: settle any debate, but we'll just talk about it more 88 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: and make you more mad. All right, let's let's get 89 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: back to me getting mad. Well, it depends on who 90 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: you talk to. If you start bringing religion into it 91 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: and all this stuff, then of course you're going to 92 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: have people that say you might have Christians that say, well, 93 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: the Bible is clearly the oldest book because the world is, 94 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: you know, only a few thousand years old, and the 95 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: Bible was written right after that, so what's older than that? 96 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: Bub and boobal scholars will say in scientists will say, actually, 97 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: the Bible has written over many, many hundreds of years, 98 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: and a lot of these stories that were written were 99 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: hundreds of years after the events that they're talking about, even, right, 100 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: But they don't say that to the people who say 101 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: the world's a few thousand years old and the Bible 102 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: was written right after they the scholars turned to the 103 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: rest of us and say, well, obviously these things were 104 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: written over centuries after these events. So um, here's the thing. 105 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: That's another thing that Lauren Ferry does is what about religion? 106 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: Why would you bring that part into it? That's not fair. 107 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: They're just trying to do this. And then there was 108 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: another one too that they said too, is well, you know, 109 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: some books are not It's not like the stories were 110 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: created out of whole cloth right when the books are written, 111 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: a lot of them are based on oral traditions. And 112 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: these oral traditions far predate any of the books that 113 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: are these oldest books that are written. And it does 114 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: not matter. It does not matter if the book is 115 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: a brand new story, but it's still older than any 116 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: other book than a book that was published in the 117 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: fifties based on an oral tradition from five thousand years ago. 118 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: That older book is going to be the older book. 119 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: This Lauren Ferry person is really getting under my skin. Yeah, 120 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,239 Speaker 1: it can't be a book. Isn't a story. A book 121 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: is a story that has been bound and written, And 122 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: I'm you know what, I'm in my definition, it doesn't 123 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: have to be bound. If you'd give me a scroll 124 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: that's got a that's got a good beginning, middle, and 125 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: end to it, then that's a book. So there's papyri 126 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: that are years old that would that would qualify them, 127 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: because I mean, it's a book, but it's just one 128 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: long page, all right, that's a book. Okay, alright to me. 129 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: So we're hot on the trail here, at least as 130 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: far as what you consider a book. I mean, Caroac 131 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: wrote on rolls of toilet paper, right, he wrote on 132 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: was the roles of toilet paper. I know it was 133 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: a very long roll of paper over like forty eight 134 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: or seventy two hours or something like that, and like 135 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 1: that was the story in the book. But you can't 136 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: sell stuff like that, so you have to bind them 137 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: in the traditional form so you can put them on 138 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: yourself exactly. But yet, was it not a book before 139 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: when it was just on one long scroll. It's a 140 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: really great point. Now I'm just getting mad at us, No, 141 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: not us, fairy Fairy Lauren Faery, be mad at them. 142 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: All right. There's another question is what constitutes a book? 143 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: What kind of book are you talking about if you're 144 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: talking about a printed book in the in the understanding 145 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: of printing that we have here in the modern world. Well, 146 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: then that's easy to settle the Gutenberg Bible or the 147 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: book printed right before the Gutenberg Bible. Man, I wish 148 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: I would have looked it up. I just I forgot 149 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: about it the whole episode on I know, but whatever 150 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: book Guttenberg put out first, that would that would qualify. 151 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: But then you remember in that episode we talked about 152 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: China had printers that they didn't use um movable type. 153 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: They used woodblock printing, but they were still printing book books, 154 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: so you know, okay, but then other people say, well 155 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: before printing, before automatic printing, there was handwriting, but they 156 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: were still writing books. Okay. Well then now you're talking 157 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: about manuscripts. So so actually you come back to the 158 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 1: Biblical people and say, well what you got and they say, well, 159 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: we have manuscripts that were written in the fourth century. 160 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: That's pretty old, isn't it. And you say, yeah, that's 161 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: pretty old. But is it is is it any more 162 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: of a book than the gold Orphism Book? Right? I 163 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: don't even know where we are now in this debate, 164 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: to be honest, because I I think I'm becking myself 165 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: into a corner that I painted myself into. You can 166 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: just walk right out of it, just say this is 167 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: what I now think. I think it can be handwritten, okay, 168 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: because Jack Carowack was writing with his hand. I think 169 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: it can be on a scroll. I can't be an 170 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: oral story. Okay. Agree, I'm gonna say it doesn't have 171 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: to be bound. If you want to out, it might 172 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: have to be bound. But then you're getting into consumerism 173 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: and like, you know that whole argument. But I think 174 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: it has to be connected in some way. So like 175 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: if it's one long scroll, those pages are still connected. Yeah, 176 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: so what are you are you saying? If they slice 177 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: that scroll up into a hundred sheets and just stacked them, 178 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: that's not a book because there's a truscan um gold 179 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: sheets that are not connected, that that would not really 180 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: qualify as a book like the gold Orphism book that 181 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: are actually older than the gold Orphism book. But they 182 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't count their just pages. You got pages, not a book. 183 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: Pages are part of a book, all right. I guess 184 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: it's here point I should reveal to the world that 185 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: I am Laurence Ferry. Oh my gosh, he just ripped 186 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: off his mask and first he was bob Yucker and 187 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: then he was Laurence Ferry. Bob, what is that from? 188 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: I think that was where those Budlight or the Miller commercials, right, 189 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: I thought it was like a cricket gun or something. 190 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: Go back and watch some of this sometime on YouTube. 191 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: Those are fantastic. Yeah they really It was Millard, wasn't it. Yeah? 192 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: Miller had great bits of nostalgia. Wow, we were raised 193 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: on TV, weren't we? Dang straight? Well, I'll tell you 194 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: who was raised on books, Laurence Ferry, and you know 195 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: who was raised on radio? Journey And how could you 196 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: get any better as far as endings go than that chunk? Agreed? Well, everybody, short, 197 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: stuff is apt. Stuff you should know is a production 198 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, 199 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 200 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.