1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. Hi, this 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: is Danish Schwartz. 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: I'm so thrilled to be here for a very special 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: episode of Noble Blood for a conversation with the author 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 2: Veronica Buckley, who's written a new book, Seven Sisters, Captives 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 2: and Rebels in Revolutionary Europe's First Family, which tells the 8 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: stories of the daughters of Maria Teresa, the Habsburg Empress 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: of Austria the Holy Roman Empire. Of course, her most 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 2: famous daughter is Marie Antoinette. I would say to most people, 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: but all seven of the daughters that survived to adulthood 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: lived fascinating lives, fascinating, tragic, interesting, all of the above. 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 2: Miss Buckley, Thank you so much for joining me. 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me. It's lovely to 15 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 3: be here, Dana. 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: So one thing that struck me right when we start 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: this book at the famous Habsburg catchphrase that sort of 18 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: summed up their dynasty. Others make war you happy Austria, Mary, 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: can you sort of explain what this perspective was, what 20 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: that catchphrase meant? 21 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 3: Yes, well, I mean in those days we're talking about 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 3: the eighteenth century. Warfare was a sort of normal aspect 23 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 3: of noble people's lives, the noble men, of course, and 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 3: also a normal aspect for many of the other classes 25 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 3: in society, though not automatically. So. There are a lot 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 3: of people, of course involved in agriculture, and so huge 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 3: numbers of people in Europe were involved in fighting basically. 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: And in those days they had a system, which is 29 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 3: called the sort of great power system, which were in 30 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: a wee bit a little bit sort of reverting to it, 31 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 3: the moment where the people who had the most power 32 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 3: simply took what they could and everybody else had to 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 3: put up with it. Now, the problem is that when 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 3: you do that, even if you are the most powerful, 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 3: you lose a lot of people. You lose a lot 36 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 3: of your population, you lose a lot of your agricultural produce, 37 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: a lot of your trade goes down the tubes, and 38 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 3: all of that sort of thing. The Habsburgs, who had 39 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 3: once been the most powerful dynasty right across the German 40 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 3: speaking world and the Spanish and Italian speaking world, had 41 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 3: now split into two families, the Spanish Habsburgs and the 42 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 3: German Habsburgs. Even though they were based in Vienna, which 43 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 3: is of course now in Austria. They regarded themselves as Germans, 44 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 3: and they decided that it was costing them too much 45 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: to keep fighting like this. So they're very cleverly decided 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: it was better to simply marry into other royal families 47 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 3: and other prominent families to gain territory, to gain prominence, 48 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 3: to gain political power that way. And of course what 49 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 3: that meant was you needed to have big families because 50 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 3: you needed a lot of princes who could be the rulers, 51 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 3: and you needed a lot of princesses who could be 52 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 3: effectively bartered to other people's princes to make these connections work. 53 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 3: So you married your girls off in order to ensure 54 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 3: a piece for a time. Of course, it never lasted 55 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 3: very long, but it was better than fighting all the time. 56 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: So Maria Teresa, who's just a fascinating figure. When her 57 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: father dies, it takes her eight years the War of 58 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: Austrian succession to actually cement her position on the throne. 59 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: But once she does, she is a formidable ruler and 60 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: like you said, fulfills her duty of having children incredibly well. 61 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: How many total children did she have? 62 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 3: She had sixteen children, and five of oh my gosh, yes, 63 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 3: absolutely amazingly, and five of them died as either babies 64 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 3: or young children. Now, she didn't regard this as problematic 65 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 3: to have sixteen children. She regarded it as a very 66 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 3: good thing because her first idea of her personal duty 67 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 3: as a Habsburg monarch was to continue the dynasty, and 68 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 3: what this meant was have as many children as possible. 69 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 3: Sons were more valued because they were Habsburgs themselves and 70 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 3: would have they would inherit Habsburg territories. But daughters were 71 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: also useful, as I said, because they could be dynastically 72 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: paired off with other people to increase territory and influence. 73 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: And she encouraged her daughters. They have big families too, 74 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 3: she said, to many of them. But several times, I 75 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 3: want to see you producing a baby every year. 76 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: Your book focuses mainly on the seven daughters who survived 77 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: to young adulthood. But one just logistical question I have 78 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 2: is these daughters have so many names. They all have 79 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: Maria at the beginning of their names. They have long names. 80 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: How did you choose how to refer to them in 81 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 2: your book? Because I've seen them referred to by different 82 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: names throughout different points in their life. Obviously, someone like 83 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: Marie Antoinette we know by her French name, but that 84 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: wasn't the name she was given when she was Austrian. 85 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 2: So as a as a historical writer, how did you 86 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: make the decision of how to refer to these women? 87 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 3: Okay, well, this is a nightmare. And as you say, 88 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 3: all of the women have the first name Maria, because 89 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 3: that's the German version of Mary or Marie. And it's 90 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: a bit like it's as if they were nuns, because 91 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: you know, all nuns basically had in one at that 92 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 3: time or till recently, the first name Mary, and then 93 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 3: another name afterwards, sister mayor so and so. And they 94 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 3: didn't necessarily call themselves Maria. But in the documents, of course, 95 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 3: that's how they're referred to now. They at home, they 96 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 3: spoke in the family Maria Terresia's family spoke only German. 97 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 3: They spoke a Viennese dialect of German, and of course 98 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 3: they were supposed to learn French, which was the international 99 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 3: diplomatic language and constant the lingua franca. Absolutely, and when 100 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 3: they were writing to each other, certainly the older members 101 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 3: of the family wrote always in French because this was 102 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 3: the sort of elegant thing to do, and sometimes they 103 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 3: would intersperse their letters with bits and pieces of German 104 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 3: or something else, but mostly German. Now, the problem was 105 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 3: that this has led a lot of historians to assume 106 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 3: that they were known within the family by their French 107 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 3: the French versions of their names. So Marie Antoinette, whose name, 108 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 3: of course was Antonia Maria Antonia. In French, that would 109 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: be Marie Antoine, but she was not called Antoine in 110 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: the In the family, she was called Antoni, which is 111 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: the German abbreviation of Antonia. But if you're reading letters 112 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 3: written in French, of course it looks as if they 113 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: all called her Antoine, which they didn't, So the way 114 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 3: you'd work it up well. For example, there was one 115 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: of the daughters named Josepha, and brother Yoursefe married a 116 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: woman whose name was also your Cepha. So this is 117 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: obviously complicated. So in the book I decided to call 118 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 3: the sister Yoursepha just Yoursepha, because I don't put Maria 119 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: in all the time, because you would be driven mad 120 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: by Maria's basically, but with the wife of yours, if 121 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 3: I call her Maria yourself. 122 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: It would increase your word count, the book would be 123 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: doubled in length. 124 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, and then you've got a real problem on 125 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 3: your hands. So and there, of course, there were several 126 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: men in the family, all called Ferdinand or France or 127 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: goodness knows what. So you have to make our distinction. 128 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 3: So one is King so and so, one is Don 129 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 3: so and so, and these are the ways you do it. 130 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 3: But it takes a bit of working out, and you 131 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: have to be always alert when you're working through the 132 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 3: the sources, because quite often they're talking about several members 133 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: of the family at the same time, and though they 134 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 3: know them, they know who they're talking about, you could 135 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: quite easily confuse them. So you do have to be 136 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 3: careful with all these names. It's much easier nowadays. 137 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: And one thing that I also imagine is very confusing 138 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: is they would reuse names, I believe right of children 139 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: who passed away in infancy. They would use those names 140 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: against that's right. 141 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 3: That was a standard thing historically, not just among royal families, 142 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 3: but time when there was a great deal the very 143 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 3: high incidents of infant and child mortality. A lot of 144 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 3: children were named after their deceased elder siblings, so for example, Carolina, 145 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: who became the Queen of Naples. Maria Theresia had two 146 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 3: daughters before her who were named Carolina, so she was 147 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 3: actually the third Carolina. Now, luckily for me, the two 148 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 3: first Carolinas died in infancy, so there wasn't much in 149 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 3: the records about them. I didn't have to worry. But 150 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 3: had they died as older girls, it could have been 151 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 3: a bit confusing. 152 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: So let's get into some of these girls specifically. I 153 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: want to jump ahead to number. I believe number three 154 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 2: of the surviving daughters, Elizabeth, because I was fascinated by 155 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: her story. This is a figure that I frankly did 156 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 2: not know much about. To put it in very superficial terms, 157 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: she was still unmarried at twenty four, briefly engaged to 158 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: the widowed King of France, who would have been the 159 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: grandfather of the man her sister, Marianne Toinette would marry, 160 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 2: but then she was tragically disfigured by small parks. Can 161 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 2: you tell me a little bit about where Elizabeth's life 162 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: took her? 163 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 3: Yes, Elizabeth was the beauty of the family, and she 164 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 3: knew it, and she made a lot of it, and 165 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 3: she was always her mother complained she was always flirting 166 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 3: with all the guardsmen and any prince who turned up 167 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: at court and song. But because she was so beautiful, 168 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: and because her two elder sisters, their fate was more 169 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 3: or less organized. She was likely to marry about half 170 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 3: a dozen different powerful people, the King of Poland, the 171 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: King of France, the King of Spain, and other important people. 172 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 3: And because of that, nothing could be agreed until she 173 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 3: was actually quite old, because if you recall, Maria Antoinette 174 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 3: was married at fourteen, so twenty four was very old 175 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 3: at this point. But the problem was that while all 176 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 3: of these things were being arranged and certain people were 177 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 3: eliminated because they were too old or didn't were rich 178 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 3: enough for whatever the problem was, she contracted small pox 179 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: and she was dreadfully disfigured by smallpox. Several of her siblings, actually, 180 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 3: including Maria Internette, also had small pox, but they only 181 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: had little marks on their skin afterwards. But she was 182 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 3: completely disfigured. And after that, of course, she had no 183 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 3: let's call it personal value on the marriage market. She 184 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 3: wasn't a beauty anymore. The only thing that was going 185 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 3: for her was that she was still a Habsburg princess, 186 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 3: and that was still an important political though. 187 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 2: By this point she was old, much older than was 188 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: considered prime charitable. 189 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 3: Yes, that's true, comparably old. She was in her mid twenties, 190 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 3: but that still would have been all right, particularly since 191 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 3: the kings of France and Spain were in their fifties 192 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: by them, and she was still of an age to 193 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 3: bear children, and so and so that was the crucial thing, 194 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: of course. But you know, in the end, people didn't 195 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 3: want to marry him. These men didn't want to marry 196 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 3: a grossly disfigured woman. They had options, and she remained unmarried. 197 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 3: And when her mother died and her brother Josef became 198 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 3: the emperor in he was already the emperor, he became 199 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 3: the ruler of the sole ruler of the Habsburg Monarchy 200 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 3: and the Holy Roman Empire, he couldn't stand her, and 201 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 3: he drummed her out of town effectively, and he sent 202 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 3: her off to the provinces, to Innsbruck, itself, a charming 203 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 3: town in the mountains in Austria, where there was a 204 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 3: very grand court, very grand palace, recently refurbished. Because it 205 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: had seemed that Maria Theresa herself might want to retire 206 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 3: there because that is where her very beloved husband had died, 207 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 3: and Elizabeth became what was called the secular abbyss of 208 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 3: this foundation for noble ladies. Now this doesn't mean she 209 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 3: became a nun. In fact, her mother was very against nuns. 210 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: She thought that celibate life was abnormal and she was 211 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 3: opposed to it. She herself had a very lively and 212 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 3: happy sex life with her husband and was very keen 213 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 3: for her children to. 214 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: Have the same children. 215 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 3: Yes, and it's very interesting because they were the only 216 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 3: royal couple in Europe at the time who spent every 217 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 3: night together. Not that Frants Cheffon didn't have other ladies, 218 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: he did, but he always came home at night, and 219 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 3: it's interesting. Maria Theresa thought this was very important, not 220 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 3: just for having children, but also because of course, it 221 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: gave the couple an opportunity to spend some quiet time together, 222 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 3: away from court troubles, away from political things, where they 223 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: could just talk over normal things. So she was very 224 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 3: much against their girls becoming nuns. And the Elizabeth and 225 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 3: also the eldest daughter Marianna, who also became a secular abbess, 226 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 3: they really had courts of their own. They where they 227 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 3: were princesses. They were treated as princesses. They were the 228 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 3: head of their courts. And although in their courts there 229 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: were nuns, they weren't nuns themselves. And most of the 230 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 3: noble ladies who lived in them, although they were expected 231 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: to live, you know, obviously decent Christian lives, they were 232 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 3: allowed to go to balls and parties and theaters and 233 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 3: things like that, and if they wanted to leave and 234 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 3: get married, they were able to do that. So actually 235 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 3: Elizabeth could have done that too if anybody had turned up. 236 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 3: But once she went there to Innsbruck, nobody did turn up, 237 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 3: so she remained there. 238 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like too bad of a life. To 239 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: be completely frank. 240 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 3: It wasn't too bad of a life because, first of all, 241 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 3: you were spared yearly baby producing, which is not in 242 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 3: itself an easy thing. A lot a lot of people, 243 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 3: of course, a lot of women died in childbirth, and 244 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 3: in fact, at that time, a lot of women would 245 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: prepare for childbirth by basically preparing for a funeral, because 246 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 3: the chances were that they might not survive. So it 247 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 3: wasn't too bad. It was very comfortable. She had a 248 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 3: good income. If she wanted to, she could have had 249 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 3: quite a lot of political influence, but she wasn't really 250 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 3: interested in that. She liked the theater and so on, 251 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 3: so she had a good time. She was also very 252 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 3: nice to the ladies who were in the foundation with her. 253 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: She didn't expect them to be too particular about their 254 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 3: religious duties. She was, of course a firm believer, and 255 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 3: she observed the normal proprieties, but they didn't have to 256 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 3: spend every second hour on their knees in prayer and 257 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 3: so on. She wasn't very harsh like that, and as 258 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 3: long as she could afford it, she made sure they 259 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: were very well fed and had lots of life going 260 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 3: on in the court. 261 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: That's wonderful. I will say one thing that emerges throughout 262 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: the stories of these daughters is that they were habsburg 263 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: dynastic pieces before they were individuals. Their personal happiness did 264 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 2: not seem as important, or I would say, frankly, wasn't 265 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: as important as their roles in the family dynasty. And 266 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 2: I think that story is very striking with I believe 267 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: it's the fourth surviving daughter right in the middle amily, 268 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: if I'm pronouncing that right, who had married a man 269 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 2: that she did not choose to marry. Can you speak 270 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 2: a little bit about how Emily's marriage came to be? 271 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 3: Yes, Emily, Well, it's a doubly sad story really, because 272 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 3: she fell in love with a very suitable prince who 273 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 3: fell in love with her and wanted to marry her, 274 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 3: and it looked as though they were going to Mary, 275 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 3: but at the end it was decided that he wasn't 276 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 3: quite important enough. There were other people interested in marrying 277 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 3: a Habsburg princess, and the Habsburgs needed a stronger connection 278 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 3: to Northern Italy, and there happened to be a Northern 279 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 3: Italian prince in Parma who was looking for a bride, 280 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 3: or rather the people looking after him were looking for 281 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 3: a bride because he was only fifth and they decided 282 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 3: that Emily would be the person. At first, in fact, 283 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 3: they thought Elizabeth would be the person, but Elizabeth was 284 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 3: quite a bit older than the prince, and so they 285 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 3: chose Emily instead. Now, this, of course broke her heart 286 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 3: for two reasons. First she lost the prince she loved, 287 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 3: and second, she was forced to marry a man she 288 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 3: couldn't stand. This prince was quite a bit younger than 289 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 3: she was and really just a boy, whereas the man 290 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 3: she loved, Prince Karl of Spire Boykin. He had been 291 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 3: a soldier, and he was a handsome man and spoke 292 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 3: many languages and all of this kind of thing. So 293 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 3: she was palmed off not only to a man she 294 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 3: didn't want, but she was an Archduchess of Habsburg and 295 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 3: the man she married was only a duke. So she 296 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 3: was demoted from arch duchess to simple duchess, which is 297 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: pretty bad considering that two of her younger sisters were 298 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 3: promoted from archduchess to queen. So she felt it as 299 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 3: a very, very humiliating step. And when she got to Palma, 300 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 3: she found that her husband, unsurprisingly since he was so young, 301 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 3: was very much in thrall to the real ruler, the 302 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: first Minister of Palma, and she found that an extra humiliation. 303 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 3: She felt that at least he should be able to 304 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 3: stand up and be boss in his own territory, as 305 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 3: it were, So she caused an enormous amount of difficulty there, 306 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 3: really caused a lot of trouble to no ultimate effect 307 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 3: except that she did make herself loved by the people 308 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: by spending a great deal of money that she didn't 309 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 3: really have, by giving it in charity and so on. 310 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 3: She herself had fifteen children, and it shows you how 311 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 3: strong this dynastic pressure was that our after the first 312 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 3: four children, she and her husband separated. They lived in 313 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 3: separate palaces in different towns. Nonetheless, they had eleven more 314 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 3: children together. He would visit her and they would have sex, 315 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 3: and she would produce a child more or less every year. 316 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 3: The sad thing is that all those later eleven children 317 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 3: died young, so she really although she had fifteen children, 318 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 3: only four of them survived to adulthood. 319 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 2: It's quite a tragic life. 320 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 3: It is a tragic life, and she was because she 321 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 3: was always making trouble. She was never allowed to come home. 322 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 3: All the others made visits to Vienna to their mother 323 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 3: and their sisters and their nieces and so on, and 324 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 3: she was never allowed to do that because she was 325 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 3: regarded as too troublesome. So she had a very, very 326 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 3: sad life in that respect, although she did have good friends, 327 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 3: loyal friends who supported her to the end, which is nice, 328 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 3: nice to think of, and to her two daughters also did. 329 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 3: The surviving daughters also knocked after her to the end. 330 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: If I'm correct. The only one of the daughters who 331 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 2: married for love was their mother's favorite, Marie Christine, who 332 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 2: I almost want to say we've done an episode of 333 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 2: Noble Blood on her very intimate letters with her sister 334 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 2: in law, Princess Isabella of Parma. But of course after 335 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 2: that period she would go on to be allowed to 336 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 2: marry for love. Can you talk a little bit about her, 337 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: because I just find her delightful. 338 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: Yes. Mary Christine, her brother Joseph who became the Emperor, 339 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 3: he was married to Isabella. Isabella is an interesting case 340 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 3: her in her own right, because she was actually lesbian 341 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 3: and she was very much in love with Mary Christine. 342 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: Her sister in law. Mary Christine was not lesbian and 343 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 3: didn't return Isabella's passion, but she was a good friend 344 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 3: of hers and was very fond of her and listened 345 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 3: to what she said and took advice from her in 346 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,959 Speaker 3: terms of art. She was a very good artist and 347 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 3: so on, and also in the way she managed her mother. 348 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 3: Isabella was an absolutely charming and a really quite a 349 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 3: brilliant woman, and she managed to manipulate anybody, anybody she 350 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 3: wanted to, and she taught some of these arts of 351 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 3: manipulation to Mary Christine, which meant that Mary Christine became 352 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 3: after Isabella's death, Marietta Rasia's favorite. Now she was in 353 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 3: love quite quickly, not immediately, but quite quickly with Prince Albert, 354 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 3: who had absolutely nothing, was one of twelve children, was penniless, 355 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 3: his father was a demoted king of Poland, all this 356 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 3: kind of thing. But the thing was that by this 357 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 3: time Joseph, the eldest son, was already married, had two 358 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 3: little girls, and Maria Theresia could afford to allow one 359 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 3: of her daughters to marry for love. If Joseph had 360 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 3: not had any children by that time, Mary Christine would 361 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 3: have had to marry somebody dynastically more important. But also 362 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 3: it is very clear that by this time Maria Theresia, 363 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 3: who had very recently only months before, lost her dearly 364 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 3: beloved husband, she saw in Mary Christine and Albert, Prince Albert, 365 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 3: a sort of resurrection of herself and her husband when 366 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 3: they were young, because they had married for love. And 367 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 3: so she went against all, you know, everybody's advice, went 368 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 3: against the wishes of her late husband and so on, 369 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 3: and allowed the two of them to marry. And it 370 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 3: was very very actually really grotesquely unfair, giving Mary Christine 371 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 3: and Albert half of all the money and everything that 372 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 3: was supposed to be shared out among the eleven of 373 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 3: the children. So you can imagine there was quite a 374 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: bit of annoyance about this, quite a bit of jealousy, 375 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 3: although it wasn't only jealousy, but Mary Christine was she 376 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 3: liked to play rather the grand lady. She was a 377 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 3: very grand lady. She was herself a beauty. She was 378 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 3: a gifted linguist and a very elegant woman, and she 379 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 3: was the light of her husband's life. He just worshiped her. 380 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 3: And so they had a very what appears to have been, 381 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 3: judging by their correspondence and so on, a very happy 382 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 3: marriage and a very unus usual marriage for the time, 383 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 3: an absolutely companionate marriage, although they didn't manage to have 384 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 3: any children. Their only child died as a baby. Mary 385 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 3: Christine had poeporal fever, which is childbird fever, which it 386 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 3: can itself be and was often fatal for the mother 387 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 3: and was also in this case fatal for the daughter, 388 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 3: and it left Mary Christine infertile. So she never had 389 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 3: any other children, but they did have a very close 390 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 3: marriage and later on they adopted one of brother Leopold's sons, 391 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 3: and he became their darling. 392 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 2: That's at least one comparatively much happier story. And now 393 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: to turn our attention towards sort of the most famous tragedy, 394 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: the baby of the family and Marie Antonia or Marie Antoinette, 395 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: who I don't think I need to remind our audience, 396 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: was beheaded in the French Revolution. But one thing that 397 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 2: I did find strike in your book is how her 398 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: sisters reacted. Can you speak a little bit to how 399 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 2: her family felt after the French Revolution? 400 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting that in the beginnings of the revolution 401 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 3: quite a lot of them were in favor of it. 402 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 3: They were not hopeless reactionaries. They were reformist people, but 403 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 3: they were really still let's call it. There were, of 404 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 3: course absolute monarchs. They felt that reform should be introduced 405 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 3: by the monarch. And Mariantourinette's favorite sister was Carolina, who 406 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 3: was the Queen of Naples, and it is interesting to 407 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 3: see that even Carolina, at the last stage of Mariantounette's imprisonment, 408 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 3: she had given up hope for her survival. And it 409 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 3: is interesting to see the letters going backwards and forwards 410 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 3: between the different siblings. Can we get her out. No, 411 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 3: we can't get her out. It will look bad if 412 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 3: we try to do something that will make her situation worse. 413 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 3: If we send in an army, they will kill her. 414 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 3: We'd better not do that. Can we trade her out? 415 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 3: What can we do? But it seems that even those 416 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 3: who loved her most had really given up hope for 417 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 3: her life long before she was condemned to death. Of course, 418 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 3: she was condemned to death and executed within a twenty 419 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 3: four hour period. 420 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: One other, I think interesting thing about this book is 421 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: is how Carolina, as you mentioned, the Queen of Naples 422 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: and Sicily, reacted after the French Revolution in Naples. Specifically, 423 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 2: how she sort of circled the wagon, so to speak. 424 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and she was not alone in that, even Leopold, 425 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 3: who was by now the emperor and perhaps big emperor, 426 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 3: and he had been the most liberal and forward thinking 427 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 3: of all of the children. Really even he had to 428 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 3: backtrack and they Saul will help. This is completely out 429 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 3: of hand. This is not what we meant at all. 430 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 3: We wanted reform, but this is chaos. And of course 431 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 3: by then Napoleon was well Buonaparte not yet the emperor. 432 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 3: Napoleon was on the rampage throughout Europe and fomenting revolution. 433 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 3: The revolutionary forces were fermenting revolution everywhere they went. And Carolina, 434 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 3: it is clear from her letters, she really believed that 435 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: she would be beheaded too, and in fact, there were 436 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 3: attempts on her life and there were plans to kill her, 437 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 3: which were foiled luckily. 438 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: I know that mothers aren't supposed to have favorite children, 439 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: even though obviously Maria Teresa did. But in researching and 440 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: writing this book, did you find that you had a 441 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: favorite that arters. 442 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 3: You know, a lot of people have asked me this, 443 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 3: and it's not easy to answer that. When I was 444 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 3: working on somebody in particular, I think of this person's 445 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 3: my favorite, and then this other person's my favorite, and 446 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 3: this I think possibly, you know, you feel, you really 447 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 3: get involved with these people, and you are living sort 448 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 3: of day to day with them and feeling for them, 449 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,959 Speaker 3: of course, as if they were still alive. And of 450 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 3: course when you're picking up the letters that they themselves 451 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 3: wrote and looking at their handwriting, shaking, perhaps with tears 452 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 3: blotting the pages, whatever, you know, you can't help but 453 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 3: be affected. I think if I could know more about 454 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 3: any of them, it would probably be AMII. The problem 455 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 3: with Emilie is because she had such terrible handwriting. Many, many, 456 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 3: many letters that she wrote, including letters that she wrote 457 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 3: to the King of Spain apparently urging him to intervene 458 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 3: to save Marie Antoinette, were rendered were declared illegible by 459 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 3: all the scribes at the courts. You know, her handwriting 460 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 3: was always bad, and it just got worse and worse 461 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 3: and worse, so that in the end there are countless 462 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,479 Speaker 3: letters of his. Nobody is sure what they actually say, 463 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: not even handwriting experts, and so oh no, you know, 464 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 3: I think maybe with sort of sophisticated AI systems at 465 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 3: some point we'll be able to decipher them. But the 466 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 3: actual ciphers, and there are many letters in cipher, the 467 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: actual ciphers are much easier to decipher than Emily's normal handwriting. 468 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 3: Added to the fact that her French and her Italian 469 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 3: were both terrible, and it doesn't help. So I think 470 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 3: if I hear that there was one that I, if 471 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 3: I needed, would like to know a bit more about, 472 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 3: I think it would be AMII. But I don't know 473 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 3: that that's likely to happen anytime soon. 474 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: Well that's a wonder answer. The book is Seven Sisters, 475 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 2: Captives and Rebels in Revolutionary Europe's First Family by Veronica Buckley. 476 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us today. This was 477 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 2: such a wonderful interview and thank you for this book. 478 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: I learned so so much. 479 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 3: Thanks very much, Dan. I wish you all the best 480 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 3: for your continuing work. 481 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 2: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and 482 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is hosted by me 483 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,959 Speaker 2: Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannahswick, 484 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: Courtney Sender, Amy Hit and Julia Milaney. The show is 485 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: edited and produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising producerrima Ill 486 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: Kali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. 487 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 488 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.