Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business Week with Carol Masser and Tim Stenovek on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2: We truly, truly respect all that is going on and
Speaker 2: is important to investors, and we're going to stay on it,
Speaker 2: including watching all of the day's IPOs. At the same time,
Speaker 2: the team here at Bloomberg Business Week Daily has been
Speaker 2: thinking a lot about some of the stories that impact investors'
Speaker 2: longer term impact all of the Bloomberg audience, and that
Speaker 2: have often been in the headlines, but often get buried
Speaker 2: and lost in the never ending flow of headlines, social
Speaker 2: media posts, and DC press events. And so today we
Speaker 2: wanted to take a look at the CDC. We're talking
Speaker 2: about the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was
Speaker 2: the subject recently of a Bloomberg Business Week deep dive.
Speaker 2: It was entitled America will Get Sick as CDC's total
Speaker 2: overhaul takes shape, and Tim that reporting by Bloomberg's Jessica
Speaker 2: Nicks and Madison Muller.
Speaker 3: Jessica Nicks joins us now here in the studio. Also
Speaker 3: joining us today doctor Richard E. Besser, President and CEO
Speaker 3: of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, former acting director of
Speaker 3: the CDC and the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease
Speaker 3: Registry in early two thousand and nine, I was during
Speaker 3: the early months of the first Obama administration. He joins
Speaker 3: us from New Jersey, doctor Bestar, I do want to
Speaker 3: start with you and just big picture. I think many
Speaker 3: Americans would agree, regardless of their political affiliation, regardless of
Speaker 3: how they feel about what's happening at the CDC and
Speaker 3: AHHS right now, that Americans are unhealthy in general, that
Speaker 3: Americans are sick, that the American health system has not
Speaker 3: been working for years. Why hasn't it? What hasn't been working?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that's the right diagnosis.
Speaker 4: And the big question is what are the drivers of
Speaker 4: that and their many you know, starting at the healthcare level.
Speaker 4: You know, healthcare is a small component of people's overall health,
Speaker 4: but we it is important. And we're the only wealthy
Speaker 4: nation in which your ability to access health care is
Speaker 4: so dependent on where you happen to have a job.
Speaker 4: There are millions of people in our country who work
Speaker 4: more than one job per day who don't have access
Speaker 4: to high quality comprehensive affordable health care, and without that,
Speaker 4: they will tend to show up in emergency rooms, They'll
Speaker 4: show up.
Speaker 1: Late for care and be sicker.
Speaker 4: We also are seeing with the latest legislation out of
Speaker 4: Washington that tens of millions of people in addition, are
Speaker 4: going to lose their health care access, so that will
Speaker 4: move us in their own direction. Some of the biggest
Speaker 4: drivers of health I have to do with income and
Speaker 4: whether someone has the income to be able to afford healthy,
Speaker 4: nutritious food, whether they have the income and the leisure
Speaker 4: time to be able to get physical activity. These are
Speaker 4: critical components of health in America. But we are seeing
Speaker 4: that in America the rates of chronic disease are extremely
Speaker 4: high and we need to do more to address that.
Speaker 4: So I think that there probably is a lot of
Speaker 4: agreement around what the problem is. There is less agreement
Speaker 4: in terms of what the drivers of that are or
Speaker 4: what the solution should be.
Speaker 2: All Right, so let's get to and I want to
Speaker 2: bring in Bloomberg News health reporter Jessica Nicks, who wrote
Speaker 2: the story with Madison Muller and Jessica, in your reporting,
Speaker 2: you know that there is a small but vocal contingent
Speaker 2: that's long been demanding changes at the CDC, and then
Speaker 2: with an ally in RFK junior the AHHS Secretary, finally
Speaker 2: getting these critics kind of getting what they want. But
Speaker 2: scientists are really worried because they feel like they've been sidelined.
Speaker 2: What is everyone so worried about.
Speaker 5: Well, we've seen that in the past few months since
Speaker 5: RFK came in to take over the Department of Health
Speaker 5: and Human Services, a complete dismantle at the CDC for
Speaker 5: what we've seen in the past. There was a lot
Speaker 5: of criticisms of the CDC during the COVID pandemic in
Speaker 5: terms of guidance around what schools should be doing, social
Speaker 5: distancing masking. It really divided a lot of the public.
Speaker 5: Since RFK has come in, we've seen mass layoffs in
Speaker 5: terms of divisions that study chronic disease, gun violence, injury prevention.
Speaker 5: We've also seen the dismantle of a vaccine panel called
Speaker 5: the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, whos supposed to meet
Speaker 5: next week and hand picked members from RFK have now
Speaker 5: come into that panel and dismantled vaccine policy as we
Speaker 5: know it. In August, we also saw a shooting at
Speaker 5: the CDC. Where the CDC was the attack from a
Speaker 5: gunman who fired nearly five hundred rounds at the buildings.
Speaker 5: Weeks after that, the CDC director was fired weeks into
Speaker 5: her tenure over vaccine policy. So there's so much confusion
Speaker 5: and chaos at the CDC that the actual work is
Speaker 5: not as able to get done because everyone's gone.
Speaker 2: So doctor Bester, let's bring you in. I mean, the
Speaker 2: worries justified.
Speaker 1: Do we need you know?
Speaker 2: I guess I want to take a step back because
Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say that sometimes we of
Speaker 2: institutions that have been in place for a long time
Speaker 2: and there are aspects that get a little stale or
Speaker 2: that maybe could be improved, and so it's good to
Speaker 2: take a look at things. But I'm just wondering your view,
Speaker 2: as a former acting director of the CDC, what needs
Speaker 2: to maybe be fixed at the CDC, What is maybe
Speaker 2: wrong about the current approach, and what is right maybe
Speaker 2: about the current approach.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is so important to look critically
Speaker 1: at our institutions and ask the question, how can they
Speaker 1: perform better?
Speaker 4: Where have they not performed well? And how do you
Speaker 4: address that? It's critical. I worked at the CDC for
Speaker 4: thirteen years under Republican and democratic administrations. I ran emergency
Speaker 4: preparedness for four years during the Bush administration, which is
Speaker 4: why I was made acting director at the start of
Speaker 4: the Obama administration to be able to respond to public
Speaker 4: health crises. What we're seeing here is the destruction of
Speaker 4: the world world's leading public health agency. The CDC doesn't
Speaker 4: just provide public health expertise for the United States. It
Speaker 4: had been looked at as a beacon for public health
Speaker 4: around around the world.
Speaker 1: That's no longer the case.
Speaker 4: The administration came in and haphazardly fired of tens of
Speaker 4: thousands of federal health workers, so many people at the
Speaker 4: CDC For an administration that is concerned about chronic disease.
Speaker 4: They eliminated the Office on Smoking in Health, and smoking
Speaker 4: is the leading preventable cause of chronic disease. There hasn't
Speaker 4: been any coherent approach to this. At the start of
Speaker 4: the Obama administration, there were efforts to look across the agency,
Speaker 4: where was it lacking, where could it do better. Before
Speaker 4: the start of the COVID pandemic, the public's take on
Speaker 4: the CDC was very high and had very high approval ratings.
Speaker 4: But we saw with the COVID pandemic see makes some mistakes,
Speaker 4: but we also saw the intentional politicization of public health
Speaker 4: by an administration that saw the opportunity for a political gain,
Speaker 4: and so across the nation we saw hundreds of talented
Speaker 4: public health professionals be vilified, people leave their jobs, some
Speaker 4: forced out, some not able to take the stress or
Speaker 4: the blatant threats to their health and safety.
Speaker 1: And now, with this.
Speaker 4: Administration, at a time where we need to rebuild trust,
Speaker 4: we have as our Secretary of Health one of the
Speaker 4: nation's leading anti vaccine advocates and someone who has demonstrated
Speaker 4: no respect for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Speaker 5: Doctor Besser, you mentioned that the CDC is this beacon
Speaker 5: of global public health. We saw what they did during
Speaker 5: the COVID pandemic. But what does this mean for future
Speaker 5: pandemics that might pop up if we have a dismantled CDC,
Speaker 5: not just for the US, but also for the world.
Speaker 2: Okay, my heart just stopped beating, because we are going
Speaker 2: to get another global pandemic arm a doctor Pessor.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the question is when not in but one of
Speaker 4: the challenges it's not just the CDC being decimated the
Speaker 4: elimination of USAID, the Agency for International Development. The CDC
Speaker 4: works very closely with USAID personnel around the globe to
Speaker 4: make sure that health departments are ready, public health professionals
Speaker 4: are ready to be able to detect and respond to
Speaker 4: signals very quickly to ensure that other countries can control disease,
Speaker 4: but it also helps ensure that new diseases don't come
Speaker 4: to our shores. Dropping out of the World Health Organization,
Speaker 4: which is designed to be the body to help share
Speaker 4: information around the globe help ensure that problems are contained
Speaker 4: where they arise. That is leading leaving us as a
Speaker 4: nation less secure, more defenseless. The cut of billions of
Speaker 4: dollars to the CDC means a cut of billions of
Speaker 4: dollars to state in local health departments.
Speaker 1: Because most of the money to the CDC has passed on.
Speaker 4: That means that in our communities they're not going to
Speaker 4: be as well prepared, not just for the next pandemic
Speaker 4: or major infectious disease crisis, but for making sure the
Speaker 4: restaurant you go to for dinner is serving you food
Speaker 4: that doesn't make you sick, and when your kids go
Speaker 4: to the swimming pool, they can swim in that water
Speaker 4: without getting harmed. These are some of the things that
Speaker 4: the CDC has done that they're not able to do
Speaker 4: with what's taken place under this administration.
Speaker 3: So, doctor, when, in your view, do we start to
Speaker 3: see the effects if we haven't already of these cuts
Speaker 3: that you've been talking about, Well, we are.
Speaker 1: Seeing them, and you're reporting that. Such a nice job
Speaker 1: lifting that up.
Speaker 4: Where a health department in Texas calls the cd for
Speaker 4: the CDC for assistance and there's nowhere there, there's no
Speaker 4: one there to help. We heard early on in Milwaukee
Speaker 4: where they're dealing with lead and their water supply. They
Speaker 4: called the CDC, but the group that worked on lead
Speaker 4: poisoning had been like, oh, these are things that will
Speaker 4: affect people at the community level. It will continue to grow,
Speaker 4: but in general, public health is invisible.
Speaker 1: When it's working properly. It's only when it's not working
Speaker 1: properly and then get stressed. So whenever there's a crisis
Speaker 1: in a community and.
Speaker 4: Public health can't respond, then you will see it and
Speaker 4: then hopefully people in their communities will say this doesn't
Speaker 4: work for us. We need the CDC to be supported.
Speaker 4: We need our state and local public health departments to
Speaker 4: be supported.
Speaker 2: Doctor Besser, Why are we so divided when it comes
Speaker 2: to There are those of us who are like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I trust the government, I trust the CDC and what
Speaker 2: they say, and then there are those that don't. Is
Speaker 2: it just politically motivated or is it people who don't
Speaker 2: feel like they get good health care and so they're like,
Speaker 2: the system is just not working.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question, and I think that there
Speaker 1: are a number of factors. Before COVID pandemic, the approval
Speaker 1: rating by both parties was very, very strong.
Speaker 4: With the COVID pandemic, there were mistakes that CDC made,
Speaker 4: but I led the CDC at the start of the
Speaker 4: H one N one swine flu pandemic, and during that
Speaker 4: period we saw extremely high approval ratings. And the reason
Speaker 4: for that was there was intentionally efforts to not politicize
Speaker 4: the response. People from both parties came together and said,
Speaker 4: we're going to do what it takes to keep people
Speaker 4: in our communities safe. What we recommend now may change
Speaker 4: as we learn more information. That's a good thing. With
Speaker 4: the COVID pandemic. Whenever there was a change in guidance.
Speaker 4: It was jumped on as a sign that the agency
Speaker 4: didn't know what they were doing. And CDC wasn't allowed
Speaker 4: to talk directly to the public after the first two
Speaker 4: months in the pandemic, and that is a setup for
Speaker 4: disaster because you need active communication to build trust and
Speaker 4: maintain trust, and once you've lost trust, it's extremely hard to.
Speaker 5: Get it back, doctor Besser. We've also seen this dismantle
Speaker 5: of the Vaccine Committee at the CDC, which decides which
Speaker 5: insurance people are going to be able to have to
Speaker 5: be able to get their vaccines. So what does that
Speaker 5: mean to watch this dismantle of the vaccine policy as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, I'm a general pediatrician and I practiced pediatrics
Speaker 4: for more than thirty years, and I know that nothing
Speaker 4: I did as a pediatrician had more proven value than
Speaker 4: helping my patients make sure that they were vaccinated completely
Speaker 4: and on time. And that took spending a lot of
Speaker 4: time with parents answering their really good questions so that
Speaker 4: they were comfortable making the right decision for their children.
Speaker 4: And I always said, if you have a question, if
Speaker 4: you want some honest information, go to the CDC website.
Speaker 4: They'll give you all the information. We can't do that anymore,
Speaker 4: and that is a major problem. We're seeing other organizations
Speaker 4: step up. The Academy of Pediatrics represents pediatricians. I'm a
Speaker 4: member of that group. They have guidance. We're seeing states
Speaker 4: come up with guidance. But the idea that we can't
Speaker 4: look to the CDC because this advisory group has become
Speaker 4: so politicized, so staffed with people who who have strong
Speaker 4: anti vaccine agendas, will put us at great risk. And
Speaker 4: what I'm hearing about the committee meeting for next week
Speaker 4: is that they will raise great concerns about safety in
Speaker 4: the COVID vaccine, safety concerns that have not been verified scientifically.
Speaker 4: And this again will lead people to be confused and
Speaker 4: will lead some people to make a decision that I
Speaker 4: think is not good for the health of their families.
Speaker 2: All right, And as we know, confusion uncertainty never good,
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what area of the world or our lives
Speaker 2: that we're talking about. Doctor Besser, thank you so much,
Speaker 2: Doctor Richard Besser, President CEO of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation,
Speaker 2: former Acting Director of the CDC, joining us from New
Speaker 2: Jersey on this Friday. Hey, Jessica before you go. Incredible story.
Speaker 2: Highly recommend everybody check it out on the Bloomberg I'm
Speaker 2: reading and you do quote doctor Besser. He said it
Speaker 2: here and he said, in a very short time, we've
Speaker 2: seen an incredible destruction of the agency that leaves people
Speaker 2: here and around the world at increasing risk. And of
Speaker 2: course he was talking about the CDC. Your kind of
Speaker 2: thoughts After having a further discussion with doctor Besser and
Speaker 2: where we are in terms of healthcare in America.
Speaker 5: It's going to be really interesting to watch what happens
Speaker 5: to public health across the US right now. We're seeing
Speaker 5: a bit of a piecemeal policy around vaccine policy in
Speaker 5: the US too. States are kind of adopting their own
Speaker 5: guidelines or working together about how can we start making
Speaker 5: sure that COVID vaccines are still offered at pharmacies now
Speaker 5: as well. So we're seeing a state by state approach
Speaker 5: to public health now, which is difficult without the CDC,
Speaker 5: because the CDC does provide that nationwide view of what's
Speaker 5: happening to the nation's healthcare right.
Speaker 2: And it sounds like different states have different moneies and
Speaker 2: that will kind of determine some of the healthcare.
Speaker 3: Well, not just that, I think insurance companies have an
Speaker 3: interesting position here because if the CDC doesn't necessarily recommend something,
Speaker 3: but states do, then what is an insurance company going
Speaker 3: to cover And to what extent does that actually push
Speaker 3: somebody to get or not get a certain medicine.
Speaker 5: That's a great question, and I think we're going to
Speaker 5: be seeing that play out, especially starting next year when
Speaker 5: the next plans start. As of this year, insurance companies
Speaker 5: are still going to cover vaccines, but health experts have
Speaker 5: been telling us in our reporting that the cost of
Speaker 5: a vaccine is probably less than the cost of the
Speaker 5: illness that you're going to get later on and then
Speaker 5: your hospital bill and everything else.
Speaker 2: So they are a whole idea of preventive medicine right,
Speaker 2: exactly right, and folks have been preaching that for such
Speaker 2: a long time. Thank you so much you're reporting and
Speaker 2: also joining us here. Bloomberg News Health reporter Jessica Nick