1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristin Kristen, and listeners, buckle up. Get ready. 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: We're about to turn on the ignition of this episode 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: looking at women and cars, and we've got a lot 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: of ground to cover. Yeah, we have a lot of 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: miles to go. Yeah, we're going to talk about women, cars, 8 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: driving stereotypes, the Industrial Revolution, Emily Post. Yeah. I mean 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: that's like this is get ready, this is gonna be 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: a three hour podcast. Be ready. You need to get 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: some snacks for sure, and maybe maybe do listen in 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: your car. Yeah, I hope you are on a long 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: road trip, very long. Yes, okay, Well let's start off Caroline. Yeah. Well, so, 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, we have a lot of stereotypes about women 15 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: and driving women drivers, and I feel like we don't 16 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: have to educate you on those. We don't have to 17 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: spend any time talking about what those stereotypes are. But 18 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: it is interesting to see that so many of them 19 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: stem from the Industrial Revolution. Yeah, they really started off 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: pretty soon after cars first hit the consumer market. Because 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: once we have the industrial revolution, we have you know, 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: work moving outside of the home and the emergence of 23 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: men and women's separate spheres, right, and so work is 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: where men go to be manly and make money, and 25 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: home is where women stay to protect the morality and 26 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: comfort of the rest of the family. But helping this 27 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: move outside of the home though, we're advances in transportation 28 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: technology in the second half of the eighteenth century, so 29 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: you've got horses and buggies moving to carts and you know, 30 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: train cars and things like that. And then of course 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: you get the automobile. Yeah, and so of people, mostly 32 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: men with above average incomes, who are enabled thanks to 33 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: these old school cars, to work farther from home and 34 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: work at home, though, had very different values and this 35 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: idea of you know, the separate spheres they should be separate, 36 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: giving you know, the aggressiveness of the man's world, like 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 1: preventing it from infiltrating the more peaceful, moralistic woman's world 38 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: because you want to keep the home a more sacred, 39 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: feminine space for the child wearing really right, and so 40 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: then you have automobiles basically fostering the rise of suburban 41 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: areas suburbs. So that's an even clearer demarcation because you're 42 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: literally separating the home and the workplace geographically more so 43 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 1: than ever before. And if we're looking at the era 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: before nine, which is interesting society women, if we're looking 45 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: just at like the uppercrowst of society, society women drove 46 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: for re creation just as freely as their wealthy male 47 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: counterparts did. They were actually called, and Kristen correct me, 48 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: show show fuses. I believe the show fuss. It's the 49 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: feminine of chauffeur. So but it's such a fun fact. 50 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: I love it. These wealthy women who were tootling around 51 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: and their old gelopes were called show fuses. But their 52 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: social roles were evident in their driving patterns. These women 53 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: tended to drive downtown more rarely than men, and they 54 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: typically stayed within their suburban communities and tended to simply 55 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: drive to social events, shops and school functions. But you know, 56 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: those darn gasoline cars sure are dirty and hard to 57 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: crank up. That's why I mean, because you literally had 58 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: to hand crank and you don't want to rip your 59 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: arm out of the socket or whatever. Of course not, 60 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: but you know, this was part of and we'll get 61 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: into marketing and advertising and that kind of stuff in 62 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: a minute, but like this is part of the whole 63 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: push of like women are too dainty to drive, and 64 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: so then you literally see the development of uh separate 65 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: spheres in driving too, because we have the development of 66 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: electric cars. Blow my mind, Chris and I did not 67 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: realize that we had electric cars back them. Yeah, And 68 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: a lot of the research we're going to talk about 69 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: was initially conducted by a woman named Virginia Sharp, who 70 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: is an expert in women's roles in automobile history, and 71 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: she talks about how the electric car was clearly marketed 72 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: to women once they were trying to figure out where 73 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: their foothold would be in the market, they realized, Huh, 74 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: this car doesn't have to be hand cranked, it's quieter, 75 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: it can't go as far as a gasoline car. What 76 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: better like automotive option for women could there be? Right? 77 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: And so manufacturers associate the comfort and convenience and aesthetic 78 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: appeal with women, linking them to the electric car, while 79 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: things like power and range and economy those gas cars 80 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: which were so powerful and noisy, they were faster, they 81 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: had greater range, and they had to be cranked, all 82 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: of that was associated with men. Yeah, in nineteen o eight. 83 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: In fact, the year that Henry Ford introduced the Model T, 84 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: he also bought his wife Clara, a lady appropriate electric car. Yeah, 85 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: and she would use it for short trips around town. 86 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: But usually when the driving had to be done, it 87 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: was all Henry behind the wheel and she was riding shotgun. 88 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: But so we have magazines at the time which which 89 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: are talking about this automotive trend causes so fancy um 90 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: but they describe electric vehicles as being perfectly suited to 91 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: the needs of women. We have the very patronizing author C. H. 92 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: Claudie who is talking about electric cars and he said 93 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: that they have a circumscribed radius. What a delight it 94 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: is to have a machine which she can run herself 95 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: with no loss of dignity for making calls for shopping 96 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: for pleasure, item for paying back of small social debt. Well, 97 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: this is also sort of educating the public that it's 98 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: okay too for women to drive cars because it can 99 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: serve this domestic function of getting her from here to 100 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: there to either There was one advertisement, for instance, talking 101 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: about how well you know a wife can go drive 102 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: to a farm and pick up fresh produce for her family, 103 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: or she can safely drive little Johnny to school and back, 104 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: you know, but it's always within that, as Claudie calls it, 105 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: the circumscribed radius. Yeah. And so leading up to World 106 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: War One, we do have more and more articles on 107 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: electric vehicles or on women drivers, and these features show 108 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: photographs of women driving, charging and maintaining their electric cars, 109 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: sort of driving home, sort of driving home that whole 110 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: division electric, clean, quiet cars or for women. The noisier 111 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: cars are from men. And that's reflected also in an 112 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: ad for the Detroit Electric, which was the last word 113 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: in luxury and beauty as well as efficiency. They talk 114 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,239 Speaker 1: about how to the well bred woman, the Detroit Electric 115 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: has a particular appeal in it. She can preserve her toilet, 116 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: immaculate her coiffure. Intact, she can drive it with all 117 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: desired privacy, yet safely in constant touch with the traffic 118 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: conditions all about her. So this is reminiscent too of 119 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: when we've talked about how revolutionary the bicycle was for 120 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: women in transportation, but there were still those concerns about 121 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: women showing ankle or riding around unchaperoned. And you see 122 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: a similar kind of like patronizing fear of okay, well, 123 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: well women have left the house. We can't stop them now, 124 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: so let's just figure out this etiquette and rules for 125 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: how you can still be ladylike and also be behind 126 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: the wheel of the car. And what's interesting though, is 127 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: you see the drop off in the electric car because 128 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: it was more expect than a gasoline car and clearly 129 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: really never caught on, partially because of that, because they 130 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: could never really make them to scale in the same 131 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: way like Forward, for instance, could make these cheaper model 132 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: t s. And in the nineteen twenties they start having 133 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: the gasoline car. Companies have to start targeting women because 134 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: everybody's getting a car, and they were like, well, you know, 135 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: it would make things better for us two cars. Families 136 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: need to have two cars. And so as they start 137 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: indoctrinating the public too, well, you don't need just one. 138 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: You need to and listen, women, gasoline cars are still 139 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: gonna be okay because you can drive the kids in them. 140 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: It's always that. The advertising is always you can take 141 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: the kids out too to the country to go butterfly catching, 142 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: or you'll be a better mother if you can drive 143 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: your kids to you will be a better wife and 144 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: a better mother with a car. It's fascinating the kind 145 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: of the way that they advertise cars to women, right, 146 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: but so I mean speaking of electric cars with with 147 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: having such a circle subscribed radius. As Claudie said, there 148 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: were some pretty fancy ladies out there motoring around on 149 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: long distances and writing about them. Um. During World War One, 150 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: for instance, you have young women of means, many of 151 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: whom were graduates of Vassar and Wellesley, who were trained 152 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: as nurses, had their fancy cars shipped to Europe. It 153 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: was kind of like an adventure travel experience. They ended 154 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: up volunteering his nurses and driving injured soldiers to military hospitals. 155 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: And there were also books that were starting to pop 156 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: up about accounts of these female road trips. For instance, 157 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen o eight, Edith Wharton, yes that Edith Wharton 158 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: wrote one of the earliest travel books about an auto 159 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: journey called a Motor Flight through France. And in nineteen 160 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: sixteen we have the first commercially successful book published by 161 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: Emily Post later Etiquette Expert, and it was an account 162 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: of her cross country journey in a car. And in 163 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties the book tra Levels with Zenobia. Zenobia, 164 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: by the way, it was the name of a car 165 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: um It provided a detailed account of a trip by 166 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: two American women from Paris to Albania in a model 167 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: Ford and one of the authors was daughter of Little 168 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: House in the Prairie author Laura Angles Wilder. But these 169 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: kinds of tales of women driving, and also women were 170 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: competing every now and then in cross country road trips, 171 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: sometimes beating men and like making a name for themselves 172 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: and making all these headlines because it was revolutionary for 173 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: women to be driving. But even though you have the 174 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: new woman emerging at the same time who was a 175 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: bit more feminist and a bit more liberated, it was 176 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: kind of terrifying for more conservative folks at the time 177 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: who did not want to see women, like ironically Emily 178 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: Posts driving all around. I know, how scandalous, uh. But 179 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: so by the nineties and thirties, as Kristen said, it 180 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: was becoming more accepted that women, look, women are going 181 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: to have to use the car. Okay, electric cars just 182 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: aren't cutting it there. We're going to have to drive 183 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: kids to school and that's going to have to be okay. 184 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: But that is sort of the image that was pushed 185 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: by both conservatives and advertisers as part of like the 186 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: car still being part of your domestic sphere. Um. And 187 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: while society was changing and that was terrifying for a 188 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: lot of people, we could still maybe we can still 189 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: use this scary new technology to to keep women in 190 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: their place. Yeah. When I first started reading about the 191 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: history of women in cars, I expected to see a 192 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: trend in this earliest advertising of selling cars to women 193 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: on the basis of that kind of new woman Hey, ladies, 194 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: here's the keys to your liberation. But no, it was 195 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: completely the opposite. The heads of these companies and advertisers 196 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: at the time, we're saying no, no, no no, no, we 197 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: need to we need to keep the status quo, but 198 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: still sell these cars. And it was all too like 199 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: largely a product of suburbanization. Like they were kind of 200 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: painted into a corner of like, well, women, you gotta drive. Yeah. 201 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: But so all of this uh strategicy that's going on 202 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: in this time from conservative Society members and from advertisers. 203 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: Part of the strategy was to paint women out of 204 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: completely incompetent when it comes to cars, whether knowing anything 205 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: about them, understanding how they work. Um. It was sort 206 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: of assumed that women were only interested in the style 207 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: or in the color or how would matched their dress 208 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: or their nail polish or something. And it's not to 209 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: say that was true, or to say that it was 210 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: untrue in some cases, but just that that was the 211 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: image that was pushed by people who did not want 212 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: women to be out driving around independent. Yeah, even though 213 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: even at this time in the nineteen twenties, women were 214 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: making forty per cent of household car buying decisions, so 215 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: they definitely had a voice in what cars would be bought. 216 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: But over and over again you have this, you know, 217 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: reiteration that women basically just want cars with interiors to 218 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: match their coats. He wrote ridiculous things like quote, boys 219 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: and men, on the average greatly exceed women and girls 220 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: in the ability to manipulate mechanical contrivances, and as a result, 221 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: women shrink from acting when facing a crisis, work by 222 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: fits and starts when under high pressure, and work well 223 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: consistently only when there is no pressure. He describes women 224 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: as being overcautious, making poor drivers than men. He says 225 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: they cause more accidents, and then he goes so far 226 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: as to say that owing to their inferior motor outlets, 227 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: i e. Like their motor skills not motor car, but 228 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: like their brains, women succeed best in relatively simple motor 229 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: activities such as sweeping, washing, and ironing. I would just 230 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: like to say that I'm horrible at ironing and only 231 00:13:55,559 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: fair at sweeping. So Walter Pitkin put that in your pie, right, um. Well. 232 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just guys like Pitkin who was saying this. 233 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: There was also a woman named Alice Hamilton's who was 234 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: writing in the late nineteen twenties early nineteen thirties describing 235 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: for the public what women really think about when car shopping. 236 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: One choice quote was, she considers how her foot, ankle, 237 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: and calf will look as she stepped smartly upon the 238 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: running board. Does this fall and gray upholstery go with 239 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: most of her clothes? Alice? Alice? Come on, well, okay, 240 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: let's let's counter that Alice with automobile adventurous Alice Hewler Ramsey, 241 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: who to whom I hope I am related. I have 242 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: Ramsey's in my family. Would be fantastic if she and 243 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: I were relatives. Anyway, She became famous by driving across 244 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: country with three women passengers in a Maxwell Briscoe Model 245 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: double A. It's a gasoline car, non electric car, and 246 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: it was part of a promotion to sell the car. 247 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: It was it was more affordable than other models, and 248 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: so it was kind of a promotional thing. But Alice 249 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: didn't this Alice, the Cool Alice, didn't stop there. She 250 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: actually soon after was defeating men in races at county fairs, 251 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: at state fairs, and she ended up getting herself banned 252 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: from Race Car Driver Association because she was too good. 253 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: Just too good, that's hilarious. Yeah, there was really no 254 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: empirical data whatsoever to back up these claims that women 255 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: were awful drivers, and clearly, like the Cool Alice proved, 256 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: women could be perfectly capable. Um, But it's just this 257 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: message that we've been told over and over again. Women 258 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: are horrible drivers, and they don't care anything about mechanics 259 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: or how you know, speG. Sala car actually runs. We 260 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: just want something apparently that looks pretty. But there was 261 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: one segment of the population that was a bit of 262 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,359 Speaker 1: an exception to these rules that kind of dodgedy stereotypes 263 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: that Virginia Chef talks about, which were farm girls, women 264 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: who are out in the country who perhaps weren't as 265 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: impacted by this mass suburbanization, were taught to drive cars 266 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: in the same way that their brothers would have been. Sure, 267 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: because all of a sudden, now, you know, so you're 268 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: on a farm, you're out in the rural country, far 269 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: away from cities, city centers. But all of a sudden, 270 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: now you've got a car or a truck that you 271 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: can load up with all of your goods and take 272 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: to take to the market instead of a horse drawn 273 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: buggy or whatever you were using before. Yeah, so it 274 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, it made sense. You only had a certain 275 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: number of people working on your farm, you had to 276 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: make good use of everybody. And so this lays the 277 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: foundation for where these car stereotypes about women come into 278 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: play from the get go, and today we still see 279 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: ripple effects of that when you look at who does 280 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: the driving. So today more women than men have driver's licenses, 281 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: at least in the United States UM and this is 282 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: probably a little bit due to women there being a 283 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: few more women on the planet than men. UM But 284 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: according to the univer Received Michigan's Transportation Research Unit, the 285 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: study took place between the share of teens and young 286 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: adults of both sexes with driver's licenses is declining, but 287 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: the decline is actually greatest among young men. Yeah, so 288 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: for men ages twenty nine with licenses that that dipped 289 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: ten point six percent, but among women of the same 290 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: age group that only declined four point seven percent. So 291 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: it's it's like a war of a trish on whatever. 292 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: But there this has serious implications for the industry because 293 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: women and men are not shopping for the same cars necessarily. 294 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: Women are more likely than men to purchase smaller, safer, 295 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: and more fuel efficient vehicles. Were also more likely to 296 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: drive less and to have a lower fatality rate per 297 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: distance driven, which is hilarious because you and I both 298 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: drive compact hatchbacks that are extremely safe. That's right, totally 299 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: fit into that mold. And this has been part of 300 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: a longer trend in terms of women essentially catching up 301 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: to men in the number of drivers out on the 302 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: road and now eclipsing them. And some theories behind the decline, 303 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,959 Speaker 1: particularly of young male license holders um are things like 304 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: technology making face to face connections less important, the erosion 305 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: of the quote unquote car fetish society, and also economic troubles. 306 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: Kids these days are less likely to have an income 307 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: large enough to be able to afford to buy a car. Yeah, 308 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: to buy a car or to afford auto insurance. Side note, 309 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: I love that you said kids these days, kids these days, 310 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 1: I know and assigned that. I think I just sprouted 311 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: four new gray hairs and I said that. Um, but 312 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: the number of young people UM working has declined, so 313 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: they're making less money. But the number of young men 314 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: ages eighteen to thirty four living at home has surged. 315 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: So maybe that's also a reason that fewer men are 316 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: holding licenses and driving cars. Maybe it's because mom is 317 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: still driving them. Yeah, I mean, and and that's more 318 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: guys than than young women who are also returning home. 319 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: Even though I mean it is more of a millennial trend, 320 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: being like the boomerang kids who leave and then come back. 321 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: But I also think, Caroline, I have a pet theory 322 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: as well that cars for people our age and younger 323 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: just might not be seen as as much of a 324 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: necessity because rather than the suburbanization of the baby boom generation, 325 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: we're far more about urbanization public transit, like it's cool 326 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: to take the train when you can. I'm moved and 327 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: can no longer well. And we also, I'm sure have 328 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: plenty of listeners who prefer to bike places as well. 329 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: But even though in raw numbers more women have driver's 330 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: licenses in their wallets, when a guy and a woman 331 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: get in the car together, there is a good chance 332 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: that he is gonna drive. And that's the same the 333 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: same thing for my boyfriend and me. We right around, 334 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: he's probably driving. So we're gonna look into this persistent 335 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: pattern of men being the drivers when we come right 336 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: back from a quick break and now back to the show. 337 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: So Kristen was just telling us before the break about 338 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: how when she's in the car with her boyfriend, he's 339 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: more likely to drive. I feel like when I'm in 340 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: the car with my boyfriend. Um, he would laugh if 341 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: we even started talking about this, because I'm such a 342 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: control freak, especially like I know Atlanta better than he does. 343 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: I'm more of an aggressive driver than he is, and 344 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: I think you kind of have to be to drive 345 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: in Atlanta. And so all of those factors combined me 346 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: that I normally drive more. See, I prefer to be 347 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: driven around because it gives me a little bit of meatime. 348 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: That's when I hop on my smartphone and check my 349 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: email again on Twitter, Instagram. It seriously feels like extra 350 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: time in my day. So it is. It's purely selfish 351 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: on my part. See, but I'm I'm kind of I'm 352 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: kind of the opposite, like driving means I can't do 353 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: anything else. Oh yeah, so it's like I have to 354 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: focus on driving, and but I do. Yell, I'm I'm 355 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: kind of a road rage type of person. Oh, I'm 356 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: super road rage. I enjoy driving, I do, and I 357 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: drive myself around a lot. And oh man, yeah, it's 358 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: um not a good idea for small children to be 359 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: in a car with me because they might hear some 360 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: some R rated language. Caroline. Well, well, we're just a 361 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: couple of show fuses. That's right, just show that should 362 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: be our new vanity plate show fuses. Um. So, what 363 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: is up though with this gender gap? That's like, had 364 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: a fascinating gender gap in car driving? And oh I 365 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: should mention to um. Anecdotally, I was talking to Scott Benjamin, 366 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: who hosts the House Stuff Works podcast car Stuff before 367 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: we came in the studio and mentioned today we're going 368 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: to talk about women and driving, and we kind of 369 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: parted ways, and a few minutes later he came back 370 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: my desk and said, Kristen, I just realized that in 371 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: the fifteen years of being married to my wife. He 372 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: was like, I can probably count on one hand the 373 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: number of times we've driven, and he had never thought 374 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: about it before. He's like, we've even taken cross country 375 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,479 Speaker 1: road trips before. I'll drive the whole way and I 376 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: have it because he prefers it, or it's just kind 377 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: of how it's always been done. And when I uh 378 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: did a stuff I've never told you video on one 379 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: men drive more, just because I was digging into the 380 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: research for this episode and anecdotally it seemed like a 381 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: lot of people. It wasn't necessarily men always driving, but 382 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: in couples there was always a driver. One person tended 383 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: to drive more often than the other person. You're pointing 384 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: at yourself. There were women, though, who the who tweeted 385 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: us who were like, I drive, I totally drive. It's 386 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: on me. So I think it just might be one 387 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: of those couple of things where someone ends up doing 388 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: it more often, kind of like the dishwasher, right, that's me. 389 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: I hate the dishwasher. Um, but anyway, not that I 390 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: hate you. I realized that that's sounded like presents the 391 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: dishwasher and I hater But if you want to drive 392 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: me around I'll load the dishes all right. Um, so 393 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: sociologist Pepper Sworts was looking at that. Pepper Shorts, by 394 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: the way, it sounds like a Marvel Comics name. Um. 395 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: Even in self described feminist households, men are more likely 396 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: to drive when couples ride together. And this is confirmed 397 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: by several studies, one of which is the American Time 398 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: You Survey that found women do indeeds than a disproportionate 399 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: share of their in card time as passengers twenty nine percent. 400 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: This is more than twice the share of men, who 401 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: spend only fourteen percent of their time as passengers and 402 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: similarly um. And this information, by the way, was coming 403 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: from the Freakonomics blog because they did a couple of 404 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: uh posts on this looking at why men tend to 405 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: drive more often, and they also cited the two thousand 406 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: one National Household Transportation Survey, which found that when you 407 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: have household members sharing a car, men are three times 408 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: likelier to be the driver as opposed to the passenger, 409 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: and for women it's the reverse. When traveling with a 410 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: household number, we're about twice as likely to be the 411 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: passenger as opposed to the driver. And for on that blog, 412 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: they solicited reader comments as well, just to get a 413 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: little anecdotal um, you know, feedback on why that might be, 414 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: and overwhelmingly, the most common answer as to why the 415 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: men tended to drive more often in their households or 416 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: women saying I just asked him to it's easier. It's just, 417 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, we don't have to talk about it. He drives. 418 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: There's no backseat driving. It gives me a little me 419 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: time and a lot of it's a lot of times 420 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: just kind of it's almost like waving the white flag, 421 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: just like, just do it. You do that. Yeah, I 422 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: think my dad always drives when it's the two of them. 423 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: I've never seen my mother drive if my dad's in 424 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: the car. Yeah, when um. I actually talked to my 425 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: boyfriend about this, and he pointed out that kind of 426 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: a similar pattern with his parents too, and suggested that 427 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: it's sort of that old school chivalry of a ladyship 428 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: and drive herself around. And I mean because my dad, oh, 429 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: my dad totally drives. I would not want to be 430 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: in the car if my mom was driving and my 431 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: dad was riding, because it would just be too stressful. 432 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: Lots of backseat driving, so much backseat driving well, I mean, 433 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: even in professional circles, the driving still skews mail. We 434 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: looked at a recent Bureau of Labor Statistics report that 435 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: showed us that the overarching category of transportation and material 436 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: moving occupations is just fifteen point five percent women. The 437 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: area where women are most represented is among bus drivers, 438 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: forty five point seven percent of whom are women. Yeah, 439 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: but then if you look at taxi drivers and chauffeurs 440 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: and not show fuses, only just under are women, and 441 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: fewer than five percent of what are categorized as driver 442 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: slash sales workers. Basically, the people driving the big rigs 443 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: down the highway are women. And um one more anecdote. 444 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: I know I'm being very anecdotal today, but I was 445 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: recently in a cab with a female driver and I 446 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: had such a like stuff mom never told you a 447 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: moment when I got in and was really pumped to 448 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: see like a woman in the front seat, and I 449 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: wanted to ask for questions. But then I was like, 450 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: I don't want to be that person who because I'm 451 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: sure she gets this all the time, you know, like, oh, 452 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: you're a woman driving a taxi. But I will say 453 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: I gave her an extra big tip because not only 454 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: was it a woman driver, she turned on the car 455 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: Caroline and Madonna came on. I was just like, this 456 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: is amazing, this is this is fun, this is a 457 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: lot of fun. I'm just picturing like this movie montage 458 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: in my head of you guys like driving around and 459 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: the sunshine listening to Madonna. The thing is, there was 460 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: that montage going on in my head throughout that cab ride. Um, 461 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: I don't. I just kept quiet. I was like, I'm 462 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: gonna freak this woman out if I say anything right now, 463 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: come out of the gate too enthusiastic. Yeah. But so 464 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: as far as men driving more and that whole stereotypical 465 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: association we have of men preferring cars cars are a 466 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: man thing, a lot of people have questioned whether biology 467 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: has something to do with it. Yeah. For instance, there 468 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: was the study at Canada's John Wilson's School of Business 469 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: at current Cordia University in Montreal which measured the testosterone 470 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: of men while driving porsches and driving cam rays. And 471 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: they had the men drive on both a crowded street 472 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: with lots of ladies on the sidewalk who would see 473 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: them driving either a camera womp womp, or a Porsche 474 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: La La, and they found that men's levels of testosterone 475 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: went up, surprise, surprise, when they were driving a Porsche, 476 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: but it was regardless of whether they were driving around 477 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: women or not. It was they they thought that there 478 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: was something to do with that status symbol being in 479 00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: a Porsche because societally, because of our association with cars 480 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: masculinity sex, cars are sort of a modern form of 481 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: sexual signaling, saying, hey, I'm driving this porch, so it 482 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: means got a lot of money. This made me think 483 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: of when I was in traffic the other day waiting 484 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: to turn and a guy turned in front of me 485 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: in like some little boxy expensive sports car and he like, 486 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: like drive that engine and drove away. Was so loud, 487 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I wonder if he's sexually 488 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: signaling anyone, it's probably I think he was probably sexually 489 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: signaling all of Atlanta with that um. But the thing 490 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: is with this study, Caroline, they did not include women. 491 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: I wonder if our levels of testosterone would similarly go 492 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: up if we were driving a Porsche around yeah, or 493 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: just like something sporty. I know, because this is this 494 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: is I'm ridiculous, But so I used to drive jeeps. 495 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: I drove a jeep forever. Yeah, and I just switched 496 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: recently to a small little compact car that it has 497 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: a lot of gidea and I love being able to 498 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: like get around people and accelerate quickly and all that stuff. 499 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: And I is I mean, there is an exhilarating feeling 500 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: of like I can get out of this traffic mess 501 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: and you know, get past all these people, whereas with 502 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: my jeep it's like, okay, I'll just sit here, so yeah, 503 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: come on. I would love to see the study replicated 504 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: with women, although they'd have to figure out the conditions 505 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: on the street, Like who would they put on the 506 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: side of the street instead of women? Would it have 507 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: to be like muscling men? Ryan Gosling, I think it 508 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: could still be women because it would still I would 509 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: suspect that there would still be a surge in testosterone 510 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: because it wouldn't be as strong of a thing of uh, 511 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, strong of a sex signaling effect. Probably for 512 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: a woman to pull up next to a guy in 513 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: a you know, in a convertible and be like, hey, guy, 514 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: you want to get in my car? For a variety 515 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: to be like WHOA, don't emasculate me, whereas you know, 516 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,239 Speaker 1: for women, I think it would just be like just 517 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: the joy of you know, kind of having that like 518 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: power symbol. Or yeah, maybe maybe there's signaling to the 519 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: other woman that they are the alpha female exactly. Yeah, 520 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: and it might we might actually have more of a 521 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: surge of test sace phone driving past women than men. Yeah, no, 522 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: that's actually my my vanity plate is alpha. That's not true. 523 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: I don't vanity plates are really stupid. Um and Vice 524 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: did take an evolutionary biology look at it, questioning whether 525 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: this was sexual signaling, but the writer was like, yeah, 526 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: it's probably just more of a thrill. Like we're saying, like, 527 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: it's probably just the the revving of the engine, the 528 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: speeding up, the getting out of traffic, and it doesn't 529 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: hurt to be like, hey, look how powerful my expensive 530 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: car is. Well, I mean, I do think that there 531 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: are so many pop cultural stereotypes too when it comes 532 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: to men, women dating and the um kind of all 533 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: the you've probably heard Hackney jokes about, you know, a 534 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: girl's excited about going on a date with this really 535 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: hot guy and then he pulls up in a insert 536 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: kind of junkie car and it's like, oh no, well, 537 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: is he hot enough then? And so I do think 538 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: that there is something too, that whole sex signaling kind 539 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: of thing. But I will also say this that if 540 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: it's so obvious the guys driving a car because he 541 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: thinks it's sexy, it's a total turn off. Yeah, oh yeah, 542 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: and which only, which only also for probably some men listening, 543 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: confirms that that women are terribly confusing. Oh won't, won't won't. Well, So, 544 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: I mean, do we have an answer as to as 545 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: to who the better driver is? Is there science there? Oh, 546 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: my gosh, Caroline when it comes to the question of 547 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: who is a better driver, because we've talked about all 548 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: of these stereotypes of women being terrible drivers basically rooted 549 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: in you know, Victorian era sexism. If you look at 550 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: research on who are who's the better driver, men or women, 551 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: it's the results are totally mixed. It depends on a 552 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: million different things and who you ask and what you're 553 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: looking at, whether you're looking at insurance or accidents or 554 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: pedestrian run ins. Yeah. Well. University of Michigan researchers Michael 555 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: Sevac and Brandon Shuttle looked at police reports of two 556 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: vehicle traffic accidents across the US from seven, so quite 557 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: a large sample, and they found that a woman is 558 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: far more likely to crash into another woman than into 559 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: a man, but a man is less likely than expected 560 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: to crash into another man. So yeah, crash. Basically, crashes 561 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: involving two female drivers were overrepresented. Based on what their 562 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: expectations of the results were, they expected it to be 563 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: um a little more even because you know, men drive more, 564 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: as you know, when two people are in a car 565 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: and they're of opposite sexes, you know, men drive more, 566 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: so than they expected men to be involved in more accidents, 567 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: but they found that based on their expectations, women were 568 00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: overrepresented in two vehicle car accidents. And similarly, there study 569 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: out of Johns Hopkins which found that women were involved 570 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: in slightly more crashes than men, but the difference was 571 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: not all that great. They said that it wasn't statistically significant, 572 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: but age might be a more important predictor of how 573 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: crash prone you are compared to gender, especially for teenage boys. 574 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: Basically the most dangerous drivers on the road our teenage boys, 575 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: because they start off pretty badly, having about tw more 576 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: crashes per mile driven compared to teenage girls. I got 577 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: into a wreck almost immediately after getting my driver's license. 578 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: How scary it was, It was stupid, It was in 579 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: stand still traffic, so you can imagine, did you hit 580 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: it a female driver? No? Male? Okay, yeah he was. 581 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: He was a jerk though, which I don't blame him. Um. 582 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: And the whole age thing was confirmed in a Purdue 583 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: University study that found that both older men and women 584 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: are much more likely to eye from traffic injuries than 585 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: younger people, regardless of gender. But then again, to shake 586 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: things up a little bit, more women do think that 587 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: they are better drivers than men. I think that's the 588 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: prevailing stereotype that we are overall safer drivers because a 589 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: lot of times our insurance rates are slightly lower, possibly 590 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: because men are more likely to die behind the wheel 591 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: than women are, at least according to US traffic data. 592 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: And also, for instance, there was some research done on 593 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: traffic in New York City and found that of all 594 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: crashes in a five year period in which pedestrians were 595 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: seriously injured or killed involved men who are driving. So again, 596 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: you know that might be because men are driving more. 597 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,439 Speaker 1: Men do tend to have longer commutes than women do. Um, 598 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: but yeah, it really depends insurance company. Yeah, like you said, 599 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: insurance companies, sure do think that women are better drivers. Yeah, 600 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: but it might also be because of the commute factors, um, 601 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: fewer fatalities, fewer pedestrians. Possibly, but I think that it's not. 602 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: It's one of those questions that is there really a 603 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: point in spending so much spinning our wheels, Caroline, spending 604 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: so much time like pondering this because if you it's 605 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: such a pervasive question on the internet. If you look 606 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: just google who is better driver? You get a million 607 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: different you know results from that. Yeah, I mean I 608 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 1: think you know it. It's a question that that people ask. 609 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: But I think personally, like in doing this research, the 610 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: far more interesting aspect of this discussion is where these 611 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: stereotypes came from and why they even popped out to 612 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: begin with. You know, the separate spheres, the conservative segment 613 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: of society being afraid of women venturing out of the home, 614 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: and so they have to do what they can to 615 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: be like patronizing jerks about it. Yeah. Well, and it's like, 616 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: what is it that we're ultimately really really asking when 617 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: we're asking who's the better driver? I feel like it's 618 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: so tied up with the roots of those negative stereotypes, 619 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: of kind of fears about gender and norms being violated, 620 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: movements away from the home perhaps, and not valuing domesticity 621 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: as much as we used to, all of those different 622 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: things that sort of underlie this question. So curious now 623 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: to hear from listeners. We have covered a lot of ground, 624 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: many miles, so many miles driven in this journey, this podcast. Jenney. Yeah, 625 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: so if you want to let us know who tends 626 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: to be the driver? Are you a woman driver, proud 627 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: of your driving skills? Do you tend to be the 628 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: driver in your household? What do you think? Mom Stuff 629 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: discovery dot com is where you can email us. You 630 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or send 631 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,919 Speaker 1: us the message on Facebook. And we have a couple 632 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you right now about one 633 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: stereotype breaking lady. I have a letter here from Caitlin's 634 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: subject line mother knowles best get it Beyonce. Okay. This 635 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: year I started both listening to your podcast, which rules, 636 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: thanks Caitlin, and listening to Beyonce's music. I love it. 637 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,879 Speaker 1: She empowers women and girls, encouraging them to strive toward 638 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: their goals and demand respect an equality while doing it. 639 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: You described it perfectly by calling her a modern feminist. 640 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: It's true, she's not the classic twentieth century feminist trope 641 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,959 Speaker 1: who dresses conservatively or shunned societal standards of beauty. Because 642 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: her wardrobe is ultimately her choice, her actions are also 643 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: her choice. By this, I mean the way she decides 644 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: to present herself and dances in videos or concerts. Wearing 645 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: the clothes she does and dancing the way she does 646 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: is telling women to be comfortable with our bodies and 647 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: sexuality so we can just have fun without worrying about 648 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: what society has to say. Feminism is all about choice 649 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: and equality, So if Beyonce's rest is her feminism through 650 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 1: dancer clothes, she's free to do it. Beyonce is killing 651 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: it at the overwhelming balancing act of being a tenacious businesswoman, 652 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: loving wife, and devoted mother, all while trying her best 653 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: to promote feminism in an industry where that word is doomed. 654 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: I agree that there are no perfect feminists, but Beyonce 655 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: comes pretty close. So thank you for your input. Caitlin. Well, 656 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let her here. From Renee and she 657 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: had lots of thoughts on the Beyonce episode. She writes, 658 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't help but feel angry at all these women 659 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: calling her out for not being a proper feminist. I'll 660 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: say straight up that I don't really know much about Beyonce, 661 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 1: but that is more the debate on what feminism shouldn't 662 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: be that gets me all cranky pants. I think for starters, 663 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: we as women should take a step back and look 664 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: at the objectification of men that we all partake in 665 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: all the time, you yourselves had a good old verbal 666 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: perv at jay Z in the podcast. If you were 667 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: two men talking about a woman, I'm sure you would 668 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: have had angry feminists after you. So why is it 669 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 1: okay for men to get all shirtless, showing their nipples, 670 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: stomach muscles and flashing their sexuality on screen or in public, 671 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: but not Beyonce or Madonna? And why are we allowed 672 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: to talk about their bodies as objects yet when the 673 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: shoes on the other foot, men are torn to shreds. 674 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: Isn't this just slut shaming? I find that it is 675 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,720 Speaker 1: a question less of feminism than outdated profiling and judgment 676 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,879 Speaker 1: that makes sex a thing that is taboo less than human, 677 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: less than normal, which it is not. And why are 678 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: we not speaking of Lady Gaga this way she seems 679 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: to think she's some brand of feminist. Also is it 680 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 1: because she's weird and not so mainstream form of pretty? 681 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: And also why is it okay for Dolly Parton with 682 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: her big boobs modeled after the image of a prostitute, 683 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: to be labeled feminist yet Beyonce is not? Although interjection, 684 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: neither Lady Gaga nor Dolly Pardon have ever called themselves 685 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,879 Speaker 1: a feminist. Um. But going back to the letter, she says, 686 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: it appears that women don't require men to suppress them 687 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: because they're doing a great job of it themselves. I 688 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: could go on and on and on, and yeah, I mean, 689 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: I think that is the disheartening part of the conversation, 690 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, which you brought up, Caroline, is how it's 691 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: frustrating to see this like regurgitation of like your your 692 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: feminism isn't okay, but my feminism is okay, And this 693 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: is how you should do your feminism and it doesn't 694 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: help anybody at all. So thanks Renee for those observations 695 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: and for everybody who's written in mom Stuff of Discovery 696 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send us your letters. 697 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: You can also find us all over social media's all 698 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: of which you can find in addition to our blogs, podcasts, 699 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: and videos over at stuff Mom Never Told You dot 700 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: com For more on this and thousands of other topics. 701 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 1: Is it how Stuff Works dot com