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Speaker 1: What's overthrowing my democratically elected state. I'm Robert Evans. This

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Speaker 1: is Behind the Bastards, a podcast about the worst people

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Speaker 1: in all of history. And we are, of course recording

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Speaker 1: in the immediate wake of what I think can fairly

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Speaker 1: be called an insurrection by fascist dominated right wing militants um.

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Speaker 1: And in the immediate wake of that, I sat down

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Speaker 1: with my producer Sophie. Sophie say, hi, Now, not literally

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Speaker 1: sit down together because of the plague, but we we

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Speaker 1: got on a text chat and I was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: this fascist insurrection against the democratically elected government has a

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Speaker 1: lot of similarities with other fascist insurrections against democratically elected governments.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps we should talk about the history of fascist insurrections

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Speaker 1: against democratically elected governments in order to better prepare people

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Speaker 1: for what needs to be done in the wake of

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Speaker 1: this to stop them from succeeding the next time. And

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Speaker 1: of course, once we had that idea, the only person

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Speaker 1: we could possibly bring on was our good friend Jason Petty,

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Speaker 1: a k A PROP. What what the LICKU read? What's

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Speaker 1: up with that failed nation state? How y'all feeling like? Literally?

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Speaker 1: I think I text PROP and I was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I want to do this, and like it was like, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: no brainer. It's like they're so like you know, Robert myself,

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Speaker 1: anybody else who has like a seventh grade level understanding

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Speaker 1: of history has been like kind of flaring their arms

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Speaker 1: like the crazy scientists in every movie. That's like, y'all,

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Speaker 1: the aliens are coming. Guys, I don't understand how come

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Speaker 1: nobody is seeing us telling y'all, we're standing on our

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Speaker 1: heads yelling at you like this is point for point,

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Speaker 1: like bar for bar, point for point. We've seen this before,

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Speaker 1: and I don't understand what you don't understand. Yeah, how

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Speaker 1: did this? Because I've been warning about this for quite

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Speaker 1: a while and uh that it could happen here, and

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Speaker 1: people continuously are like, I can't believe you predicted this,

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Speaker 1: and it's like nobody predicted this. Everyone who was paying

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Speaker 1: attention was like, oh, this is obviously going to happen

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Speaker 1: because thousands of people are promising to do this. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's like the dog. My favorite one, my favorite meme

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Speaker 1: going around was one with Ron Burgundy. He was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: that estalated slowly over the past ten years, like yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, I can't believe these people did exactly what

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Speaker 1: they said they was gonna do. This is crazy, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's very frustrating. Um. And so you know, the

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Speaker 1: reason we decided to do the special mini series Behind

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Speaker 1: the Insurrections is that I think historically that's what this

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Speaker 1: is called. That you're listening to the insurrection, Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: and I did a similar thing last year when the

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Speaker 1: uprising against the police started, where we kind of talked

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Speaker 1: about the history of the police, and I thought that

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Speaker 1: was useful to inform people both the context of why

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Speaker 1: folks were angry for a lot of folks who maybe

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Speaker 1: had never really thought that much about the police and

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Speaker 1: didn't understand all the hatred. UM. And I also thought

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Speaker 1: it was useful because understanding, you know, the history of

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Speaker 1: something that you want to fight, is useful in fighting it. Um,

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Speaker 1: whether it's the police state or a fascist insurrection. And

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Speaker 1: understanding what other fascists have done throughout history and where

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Speaker 1: they've succeeded and failed, and how the people opposing those

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Speaker 1: fascists have succeeded or failed is important both for us

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Speaker 1: to know what's coming next and to avoid making the

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Speaker 1: same mistakes that other people made in the past that

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Speaker 1: led to them being ruled by fascists, which I'd like

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Speaker 1: to avoid. So naturally we're gonna start with Rome, right yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're we're gonna be starting with my old friend Benito,

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Speaker 1: m Um big Benny as no one has any move

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. The thing that I like, I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna get into this, but like off jump the in

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Speaker 1: in my hopes to like, you know, help people figure

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Speaker 1: out ways in roads too, you know, their family members

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Speaker 1: who have been cooked by this, Like fascist movement is

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Speaker 1: like is dig inside of you and understand what it

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Speaker 1: feels like to be disenfranchised and what it feels like

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Speaker 1: to feel like you've been left behind by those that

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Speaker 1: are supposed to take care of you. And if you

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Speaker 1: can understand that, you know, coupled with a person having

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Speaker 1: really non powerful antennas to know that they're being fed bullshit,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. Um, then I feel like

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Speaker 1: you're you're like you're you're starting to get on. There's

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Speaker 1: manual asked to like how to not let yourself and

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Speaker 1: you trying to stop a fascist regime not incensing and

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Speaker 1: creating martyrs out of them and confirming their feelings that uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, Airby against them. You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's a matter of like getting behind that

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Speaker 1: and being like, Okay, if this election was stolen, that

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Speaker 1: would suck. You're right, that would suck if that was true.

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Speaker 1: It's yeah, not though it's not. Yeah, it's not, it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, I mean, if a bunch of Satan

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Speaker 1: worshiping pedophile wizards were eating all of our children, that

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Speaker 1: would be a problem. We should fight that. But that's

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Speaker 1: not happening. It's just not true. Bro. Yeah, the real

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Speaker 1: pedophiles in power are more like the guy you think

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Speaker 1: is the second Coming. Um. But yeah, yeah, so let's

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Speaker 1: let's let's talk about old old Benito Mussolini. Um moves.

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Speaker 1: I started thinking about Benito as I was watching live

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Speaker 1: stream footage of people breaking through the capital barricades and

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Speaker 1: into offices with zip ties and weapons. Um. And I

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Speaker 1: know that while this was happening, in the immediate wake

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Speaker 1: of it, a lot of people started bringing up historical comparisons,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately, I think a ton of those historic comparisons

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Speaker 1: were bad. We're the wrong ones. To make a good

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Speaker 1: example of this would be a ton of people who

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Speaker 1: compared the events of the sixth to Krystal knocked the

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Speaker 1: Night of Broken Glass. UM, and I think everyone here

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Speaker 1: knows what that is. For those that don't listening, it

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Speaker 1: was a pegram, which is a racial amass, racial assault

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Speaker 1: like on members of a specific race basically, UM, that

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Speaker 1: was instituted by the Nazi government against Jewish people in Germany.

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Speaker 1: Hundreds of synagogues and Jewish owned businesses were burnt down

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Speaker 1: on the space of a night. UM. Hundreds of people

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Speaker 1: were killed. Um. And it was a nationwide racial attack

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Speaker 1: carried out at the government's behest right. UM, that's not

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Speaker 1: what we saw on the set. It's not this. Yeah

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Speaker 1: and yeah, probably the most prominent person to make that

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Speaker 1: comparison was our current governor or former governor of California

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Speaker 1: and current Arnold Schwartzenegger. Arnold Schwarzenegger UM, whose video otherwise

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Speaker 1: had some really good stuff in it about Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say, I kind of dig it in the

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Speaker 1: sense of, like the way he was talking about the

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Speaker 1: remorse of people that was a part of it. I

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Speaker 1: think if he was gonna pull the Austria card like

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Speaker 1: it would have been a better although miss Leny's a

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Speaker 1: better parallel. But yeah, when UM when they burned the

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Speaker 1: parliament right before. Yeah, that's a more better comparison, you

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Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. Then? Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, has a

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Speaker 1: great TikTok content. He's got like a pet donkey that

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Speaker 1: follows him around. I'm sure he does. I do. He's

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Speaker 1: definitely like the like the meme of like, you know,

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Speaker 1: when it's heartbreaking that the worst person you know, it's

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Speaker 1: an excellent point, makes a really good point. Yeah, great point, bro,

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Speaker 1: And I think his best point was just like how

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Speaker 1: you know the victims of fascism continued long after the war,

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Speaker 1: including the children of Nazis who you know were abused

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Speaker 1: by parents and stuff. Great point to make, wrong about

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Speaker 1: Christal Knoch. We we're talking about actually good historic comparisons

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Speaker 1: and valuable ones to what happened on the sixth in

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Speaker 1: d C. There are a few. One of them, as

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Speaker 1: you noted, was the burning of the Austrian Parliament, which

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Speaker 1: I think we're going to talk about a bit later

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Speaker 1: in this series. Um. But and other folks have kind

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Speaker 1: of much more aptly I think, compared what happened in

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Speaker 1: the sixth to uh the Munich beer Hall push, which

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Speaker 1: was Adolf Hitler's first attempt to seize power, and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of good reasons to compare that to the sixth.

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Speaker 1: It's not really a perfect comparison. None of them are

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Speaker 1: um in part because when Hitler tried to overthrow the

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Speaker 1: government starting in Munich, he was a political rabble rouser

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Speaker 1: with no power who was trying to spark a mass revolution.

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Speaker 1: And on January six it was like tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of the president's fans, including a lot of police officers,

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Speaker 1: active duty soldiers, and elected leaders, who tried to take

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Speaker 1: over the capital. It's a bit different. So if we're

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Speaker 1: looking for a better historic parallel to January six, I

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Speaker 1: think we might be better served by going back a

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Speaker 1: year before the nineteen Beer Hall putch, when a completely

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Speaker 1: different fascist, Benito Mussolini lad what came to be known

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Speaker 1: as the March on rome Um. A lot of really

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Speaker 1: good comparisons to what's happened, a lot of good lessons

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Speaker 1: in the March of rome Um. So most people, good

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Speaker 1: before you start is just if you could. It's you

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Speaker 1: never really want to like reach into the past and

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Speaker 1: draw like direct lines, if you will, but if you

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Speaker 1: could think to yourself just as a general grid, if

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Speaker 1: in the story. You own the side of Mussolini, you

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Speaker 1: probably own the wrong side of history. I think we

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Speaker 1: can say that completely. So now as you continue think

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Speaker 1: about your position in this and you that might be

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Speaker 1: able to tell you which side of history you should

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Speaker 1: be all right now anyway going and if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're rightfully on the side of history that's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to stand with Mussolini, which I think

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Speaker 1: the vast I think the vast majority of people listening

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Speaker 1: to this are already there. I think one of the

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Speaker 1: things this teaches is why the people who didn't want

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Speaker 1: Mussolini to wind up and charge failed, you know, and

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Speaker 1: and it's important to know that as well. Right, Um, So,

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Speaker 1: most people are probably broadly familiar of Benito Mussolini, but

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Speaker 1: because of how history went down, he tends to be

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Speaker 1: remembered mostly as like Hitler's ridiculous and kind of sad sidekick,

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Speaker 1: like the least threatening dictator on the axis side. Um,

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Speaker 1: Mussolini doesn't wind up as like the frightening villain in

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Speaker 1: a lot of movies, right, you know, Yeah, that's good.

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Speaker 1: I ever thought of it like that, but yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it's like you're just like, oh, you. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: you Hitler light unless you was in unless you was

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Speaker 1: in it, unless you was in Italy. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: even then Italy would have been it would have been

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Speaker 1: better to be, you know, a Jewish person in Italy

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Speaker 1: than in Germany. Not a high bar, you know, the

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Speaker 1: lowest bar in history, actually minimal. Yeah, but yes, he

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Speaker 1: he gets this kind of reputation of just being like

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Speaker 1: incompetent and the junior partner to Hitler and not very frightening.

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Speaker 1: And that really misses a lot of the history and

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Speaker 1: what what people at the time when Mussolini rose to

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Speaker 1: power thought, because Hitler actually in some ways idolized Mussolini

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Speaker 1: UM and he patterned his career off of Mussolini's career.

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Speaker 1: The Munich Beer Hall Putsch was inspired directly by the

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Speaker 1: March on Rome. Mussolini was not just the first um

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Speaker 1: like Mussolini was the first fascist dictator. He was the

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Speaker 1: man who created fascism as a political ideology that actually

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Speaker 1: took power. Right. We talked about Gabrielle de Nunzio, who

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Speaker 1: kind of invented a lot of the ideas that became

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Speaker 1: fascism as a and who was a contemporary of Mussolini's.

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Speaker 1: But Mussolini is the guy who made fascism work for

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Speaker 1: the first time. And when I say work, I mean

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Speaker 1: actually seized power, not that is a good government or anything. Um.

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Speaker 1: He was the first fascist who seized power from a

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Speaker 1: functional democracy. So he's he is not an incompetent buffoon

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Speaker 1: and you kind of you it behooves you to understand

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Speaker 1: how he succeeded in the way that he did. Um.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna do a full set episodes on his life

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Speaker 1: at some point on Behind the Bastards, but since we're

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Speaker 1: just focused on the March on Rome today, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: give a little cliffs notes of Benito's life prior to

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Speaker 1: him coming to power. So Benito aml car Andrea Mussolini,

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Speaker 1: which is quite a name. That is a mafia boss

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Speaker 1: right there, except for the Andrea, right, except for that Andrea.

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Speaker 1: When he got baptizes Christening, they gave him Andrea. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: either that or it's like a boy named Sue situation,

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Speaker 1: and it turns out that's actually a bad idea. Yeah. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So he was born on July three in a small

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Speaker 1: Italian town that I'm not going to try to pronounce

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Speaker 1: right now. His father Alessandro was a blacksmith and a socialist.

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Speaker 1: He named Benito after Mexican President Benito Warez, who's the

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Speaker 1: name sake of Juarez and who was the first indigenous

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Speaker 1: president of Mexico. Um and was a famous liberal. You know. Um,

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Speaker 1: I thought that was interesting. I had super interest. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: uh yeah in nineteen o two. So that's like his background.

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Speaker 1: He goes a very left wing, right, like, your parents

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Speaker 1: are naming you after the liberal indigenous president of Mexico.

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Speaker 1: Like that's that's quite a thing. That's a flex right there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what a pivot. Yeah, this guy is one of the

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Speaker 1: great all time historic pivots, you know. Um. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: o two, Benito fled to Switzerland to avoid compulsory military service.

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Speaker 1: He became active in the Italian socialist movement from Afar,

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Speaker 1: and he grew obsessed with the writing of syndicalist Georges Morel,

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Speaker 1: who believed that capitalist democracy needed to be overthrown by

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Speaker 1: a combination of general strikes and violent direct action. So

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Speaker 1: he's he's a socialist, he's a leftist, but he's a

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Speaker 1: fan of these guys who are like, we need a

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Speaker 1: revolution and violence is okay in that revolution. Right, that's

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Speaker 1: like a big, big chunk of his early ideological upbringing.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen o or, Benito returned to Italy under a

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Speaker 1: general amnesty for draft dodgers in exchange for which he's

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Speaker 1: he had to serve in the military for two years.

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Speaker 1: He did his time, he got out, and he became

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Speaker 1: a left wing journalist and a firebrand, participating in a

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Speaker 1: nineteen eleven riot protesting Italy's imperialist war in Libya. He

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Speaker 1: did night or five months in prison for this. So

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Speaker 1: not just like a talker, like he puts his skin

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Speaker 1: in the game and he does time protesting and imperialist war.

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Speaker 1: Dang all right, okay, yeah, yeah he was. He was.

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Speaker 1: He was not like wishy washy about this stuff. I

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Speaker 1: guess it's the point I'm making. So as a hardcore leftist,

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Speaker 1: Mussolini hated the monarchy, which in Italy at the time

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Speaker 1: was similar in its kind of power to the British monarchy.

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Speaker 1: Italy is a constitutional monarchy at this point, so more

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Speaker 1: or less a democracy. But they've got a king and

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Speaker 1: he has some power. Um. In nineteen twelve, Mussolini stated

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Speaker 1: the king is nothing more than a useless citizen, and

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Speaker 1: the Italian flag is fit only for a dung heap. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: burn it all down, burn it all down kind of guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: very much, very much. Now, it may seem odd that

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Speaker 1: the first fascist dictator was a committed left wing activist

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Speaker 1: in his youth, but it's really not that strange. This

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Speaker 1: is a pattern that we see repeating itself over and

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Speaker 1: over throughout the history of fascism. In more recent times,

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Speaker 1: just to talk about stuff that's happened in the last

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Speaker 1: like four years, Jason Kessler, who's the fascist who planned

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Speaker 1: and organized the first Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville,

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Speaker 1: got his starting political activism and occupy in New York.

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Speaker 1: You can find in Unicorn Rights discord jets him talking

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Speaker 1: about being very indu occupy at the time. Um Andrew Arenheimer,

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Speaker 1: we've who's a neo Nazi hacker and a prominent member

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Speaker 1: of the fascist movement in this country, claims to have

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Speaker 1: been an organizer at Occupy Wall Street. I found discussions

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Speaker 1: in Unicorn Riots archive where we've debates with other Nazis

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Speaker 1: who were there about how Occupied could have been handled

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Speaker 1: differently and been more successful. And for a lot of

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Speaker 1: these Nazis, the failure of the occupy movement to garner

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Speaker 1: any real change, and the ease with which the police

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Speaker 1: swept it aside were major factors in radicalizing these guys

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Speaker 1: to the far right. One fascists that I found in

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Speaker 1: a discord conversation said quote, I was at Occupy Wall

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Speaker 1: Street in two thousand eleven. It was black pilling as fuck,

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Speaker 1: by which he means the experience was so disheartening that

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Speaker 1: it pushed him towards fascism. Um. And that's really what

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Speaker 1: we see with Mussolini. Um. He's very involved in left

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Speaker 1: wing politics. He gets arrested for them, and he sees

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Speaker 1: them continue to fail. Right. They don't succeed in overthrowing

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Speaker 1: the government, they don't succeed in pushing the changes that

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Speaker 1: he believes are necessary, and it starts to embitter him.

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Speaker 1: I I often think that like some of that happens

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Speaker 1: in the black community with just also like like still

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Speaker 1: trying to wrap my brain around Like I saw a

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Speaker 1: video Crips for Trump on the on the UH at

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Speaker 1: the at the at the at the insurrection earlier. It's

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Speaker 1: like Chris for Chump west Side something something in and

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Speaker 1: I could not wrap my brain around, Like how does

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Speaker 1: will work? But I think it's it. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of it does have to do with the fact that, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've tried so hard, we put our flag

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Speaker 1: in the sand with this particular way of approaching, you know,

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Speaker 1: political change, and it's not working, that you're like, well

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Speaker 1: forget it, you know, and then like, well, maybe this

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Speaker 1: will work, Maybe this going this direction speaks more to like,

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Speaker 1: since the Empire the machine just met us with might

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Speaker 1: and just overpowered us with might because they're just they're

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Speaker 1: just more powerful, you'll only recourse is to be like,

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Speaker 1: well I need to be more powerful than that. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, yes, yes, that's exactly when you when you're

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Speaker 1: I think you're really onto something like when you're when

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Speaker 1: you're getting your ass kicked. And I think some of

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Speaker 1: this is that I think it's probably more common with

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Speaker 1: males who are kind of activism, like and you get

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Speaker 1: your pride is harm by getting the ship kicked out

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Speaker 1: of you repeatedly, by the repeated failure to win, to

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Speaker 1: advance by the sheer strength of your opponent. I do

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Speaker 1: think that that can have the effect of pushing people

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Speaker 1: in that kind of more violent authoritarian direction where you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: I just want to win, Like, yeah, I wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: surprised if that has if that's a part of what's

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Speaker 1: going on, And I think it is for Mussolini, because

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Speaker 1: the switch for him really happens as a result of

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Speaker 1: World War One. Um. So basically what you've got with

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Speaker 1: World War one, Archduke friends Ferdinand get shot Dad along

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Speaker 1: with his wife, and it starts this this series of

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Speaker 1: events right um, where Austria is going to invade Serbia

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Speaker 1: and Russia is going to come in on the side

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Speaker 1: of and like it starts this whole domino effect. And

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Speaker 1: so there's months between his assassination and the actual outbreak

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Speaker 1: of the war where everyone knows that Europe is gearing

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Speaker 1: up for a war. And prior to that happening, the

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Speaker 1: international left, the communist international, largely had been very anti war,

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Speaker 1: very united across national boundaries. But as soon as a

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Speaker 1: mass European war becomes a reality, ship starts to splinter.

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Speaker 1: And there are a lot of folks who had been

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Speaker 1: socialist leftist like workers who instead of kind of siding

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Speaker 1: with workers Solidarity or like, well, I'm gonna side with

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Speaker 1: my country on this um. And you know that's not

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Speaker 1: the only thing that's happening. There's also like this, the

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Speaker 1: Second International tries to organize like some sort of workers

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Speaker 1: strike or something like. There's a couple of ideas about

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Speaker 1: how they might stop the war by organizing workers, and

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Speaker 1: all of these ideas fail. Um. And you know, all

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Speaker 1: of these ideas fail, and Europe lurches towards war. And

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like this moment where this big international

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Speaker 1: left wing movement shows it that it's toothless in the

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Speaker 1: eyes of at least of the eyes of a guy

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Speaker 1: like Mussolini. Like we said like this, we weren't going

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Speaker 1: to let this kind of thing happen, and now it's happening. Um.

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Speaker 1: So that that for one thing as a source of

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Speaker 1: frustration to a lot of people. Um. Mussolini is more

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Speaker 1: directly enraged by something that happens earlier in nineteen fourteen, UM,

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Speaker 1: something called Red Week, which was when a bunch of

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Speaker 1: workers there's a big mass workers revolt in Italy that

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Speaker 1: was brutally put down by Italian police and the Royal army. UM.

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Speaker 1: And this had kind of convinced him that the bourgeoisie

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Speaker 1: leaders of left wing political parties, the actual like liberals

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Speaker 1: and socialists and government didn't really support revolution and he did,

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Speaker 1: so all of this stuff is kind of in the mix,

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Speaker 1: leading to him getting kind of black pilled, to use

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Speaker 1: the words of that other Nazi. Um And Benito doesn't

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Speaker 1: come out as against the war as a result of this. Instead,

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Speaker 1: he decides to become incredibly pro war because he thinks

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Speaker 1: it's going to accelerate the collapse of the Italian state

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Speaker 1: and lead to a revolution, right. Um So, in mid September,

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Speaker 1: after Italy announced her neutrality in the war, Benito tells

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Speaker 1: the staff of the newspaper he worked at, Avanti, which

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Speaker 1: was a socialist paper, that he'd become convinced that war

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Speaker 1: alone could bring revolution to Italy. Um So, yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: kind of like an acceleration is we need to go

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Speaker 1: to war because that's going to force a revolution, is

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Speaker 1: the only way? Yeah, yeah, I I yeah. When you

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Speaker 1: it's it's a always at least in my head, like

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Speaker 1: I've I've kind of let go of the like linear

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Speaker 1: swing of like you know, far right far left in

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Speaker 1: my brain. I know, we use that because that's how

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Speaker 1: we understand the world right now, but like it seems

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Speaker 1: much more like circular to where it's like, uh, they

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Speaker 1: ended authoritarianism. At the end of the day, they end

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Speaker 1: with a with a strong dude like so so it

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Speaker 1: was crazy like yeah, so like the further left you go,

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Speaker 1: You're still gonna end that a dude overpowering. I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I which I was gonna say, which which why

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Speaker 1: like I'm now leaning more towards thinking in anarchist ways

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Speaker 1: of being, Like, you gotta get off this loop. It's

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Speaker 1: just this the whole it's there. We're gonna land in

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Speaker 1: the same place at some point, somebody's going to get oppressed,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, and what you're so, there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of things, a couple of terms that are used a

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Speaker 1: lot for the kind of thought process that you just explained.

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Speaker 1: One of them is horseshoe theory, which is this idea

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Speaker 1: that the left and the right, when you go far enough,

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Speaker 1: come around to the same place. And I I don't

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Speaker 1: subscribe to that because I don't think that left wing

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Speaker 1: ideals and far right ideals are super similar. But I

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Speaker 1: do think that what you see that looks like that.

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Speaker 1: The reason why the far left and say Soviet Russia

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Speaker 1: under Stalin and the totalitarianism of Hitler have a lot

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Speaker 1: of similarities and similar body counts. Is because authoritarians always

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Speaker 1: trying to say exactly exactly it's the authoritarian left, authoritarian right.

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Speaker 1: And Mussolini is always an authoritarian leftist. So it's easy

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Speaker 1: to go authoritarian right. If you're anti authoritarian, it's a

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Speaker 1: lot harder to wind up at that. We should have

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Speaker 1: a dictator place. Sometimes get off the loop, because if

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Speaker 1: it ends at authoritarianism, then this is not where I

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Speaker 1: need to be. Yeah, exactly, if it ends with like

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Speaker 1: all of the we're being in one dude or a

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Speaker 1: tiny number of people's hands, yeah, no, that's not what

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Speaker 1: I want. It's like somewhere on this horse too, I

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Speaker 1: knew that that wasn't a good idea. You know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, We need to get off the ride. And

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Speaker 1: and Mussolini is very much just a guy who's he's

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Speaker 1: of that, he's he's always been kind of an authoritarian

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Speaker 1: um in part because he is very in love with

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Speaker 1: his own ideas and thinking. And that's the same when

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Speaker 1: he's on the left as when he's on the right.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's not a clean process of him

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Speaker 1: going from socialist to fascist, but it happens over the

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Speaker 1: course of not just World War One, but ramping up

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Speaker 1: to getting Italy involved in World War One. So Italy had,

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Speaker 1: prior to the outbreak of hostilities been allied with the

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Speaker 1: Central Powers, so they should have come in the war

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00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: on Germany's side. But they, very intelligently, We're like, no, no,

424
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 1: we're not We're not doing this. This does seems like

425
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 1: a good idea, but and that's why. So they say

426
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: we're not getting involved in the war. And Mussolini becomes

427
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: a pro war activist, trying to force Italy to come

428
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: into the war on the side of the Allies, so

429
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: fighting against the people they've been allied with before. And

430
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote now from a write up in nineteen

431
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: fourteen to nineteen eighteen online, which is a World War

432
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: One encyclopedia. It's a very good resource. And all this

433
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: after his late October editorial demanded Italian intervention. Socialist outrage

434
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: prompted Mussolini's resignation. So he's forced to resign from the

435
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 1: party he had been a member of. When his pro

436
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: interventionalist newspaper will Popolo, the Italia, the Italia, the the

437
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: Italian people. I think it is what it stands for. Yeah,

438
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: not appeared in mid November, the party expelled him. Mussolini

439
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: concealed its funding by industrialists, the French, his wealthy lover

440
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: Margharita Saffrati, and possibly Russian agents. For six months, through

441
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,719
Speaker 1: editorials and demonstrations, he promoted the interventionalist movement, Collaborating with

442
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: syndicalist Filippo Corradoni, Mussolini demanded war against Italy's allies Germany

443
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: and Austria Hungary to demolish bulwarks against European Revolution of

444
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: victorious war would forge a national mass movement demanding political change.

445
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: If the government rejected war, Mussolini threatened revolution most Italian's

446
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: favorite piece. But Vittorio Emmanuel, the third King of Italy,

447
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: forced a war declaration on twenty four of May nineteen fifteen.

448
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of interesting stuff that's happening there.

449
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: One of them is that Mussolini has an ideological reason

450
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: for wanting war, because he thinks it's going to lead

451
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: to revolution. Another is that he's very likely getting paid

452
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: by foreign powers in order to incite Italy to come

453
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: in on their side. Um, kind of like our ad

454
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: sponsors who pay us, you know, who does come in

455
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: sponsored violence against trying to accelerate our wallets. Yeah yeah, yeah,

456
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 1: accelerate your wallets, accelerate our wallets. There we go. We

457
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: can't we had we landed on it. Here's products. Uh,

458
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: we're back. Um. So yeah, we're talking about Mussolini becomes

459
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: this very much like interventionalist figure, and there's a mix

460
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: of ideology and foreign backing that kind of pushes him

461
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: towards it. And I could talk about websites like the

462
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 1: Gray Zone and they're weird Russian funding and how they're

463
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 1: ostensibly left wing but also pro imperialist intervention when some

464
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: countries do it, but I won't because we need to

465
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: move on to the story of Benito Mussolini. But we've

466
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,239
Speaker 1: seen these patterns happen recently as well. So Mussolini was

467
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: obviously just one very prominent voice in favor of war.

468
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: He was a major pro war figure, but he was

469
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: probably was not the only one, and he was probably

470
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: less influential than Gabrielle de Nunzio, who again we covered

471
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: in a two party that I'd recommend people listen to,

472
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: and to his minimal credit, after helping to monger his

473
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: nation into war, Mussolini joined the army and fought as

474
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: a burstiglieri uh, which is like a marksman. It's almost

475
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: like a special forces unit, right, like it's an elite

476
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: military unit. Um, kind of like the Army Rangers, it seems. Um.

477
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: And he was wounded at the front by an exploding

478
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: mortar in one of Italy's many bloody stalemates with Austria.

479
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 1: Since he'd become a very public face of the pro

480
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: war movement, the king came to visit him twice while

481
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 1: he was in the hospital. Benito became a bona fide

482
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: celebrity and when the war ended this provided him with

483
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: a great deal of political capital. He moved further and

484
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: further right, pulled in by the spell of Gabrielle de

485
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: Nunzio's proto fascist rhetoric when Italy was screwed over by

486
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,959
Speaker 1: her allies with the spoils of war, because like, Italy

487
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: had come in on the side of the allies, but

488
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: they didn't really get ship at the end of it,

489
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: Like they wanted a lot more territory, more of Austria,

490
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: and they kind of got sucked out of it. Um.

491
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: And that pisss off the Italian right who feel like

492
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: we fought and bled and lost our comrades for this

493
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: and we didn't get anything. And it's because of our

494
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: lay mass left wing government. Um, that's how a lot

495
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: of folks feel. Um And yeah, Mussolini becomes is basically

496
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: by the time the war ins Is is pretty entrenched

497
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: in the growing far right in Italy and he supports

498
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: Gabrielle Benunzio when Denunzio leads an army of Italian Special

499
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: Forces veterans to occupy the city of fume Um and

500
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: this is we again. We talk about this in our

501
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: episodes on de Nunzio. But fume is this city that

502
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: was part of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia gets created at wor World

503
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: War One ends and they get this city that Italy

504
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: thought should be theirs. So Donunzio leads an army of

505
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: retired Special Forces veterans to take it and they turn

506
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: it into this weird it's like this melting pot because

507
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: in you know, nineteen eighteen, nineteen nineteen, you've got all

508
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: these ideologies that are like still kind of forming. Anarchism

509
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: and communism and fascism are popular in a lot of

510
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: like similar circles of people. There's a lot of interplay

511
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: between them at this period because they're all kind of

512
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: new ideologies being developed and the same kinds of people

513
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: who are interested in radical politics are all hanging out together.

514
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: Um yeah, so Fume is like a big melting pot

515
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: for all these kinds of things and it winds up

516
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: being the place where a lot of what becomes fascism

517
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: gets cooked up. It's like, that's that's the ententy you say,

518
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: because like I do picture it as like this, like yeah,

519
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: like planets for like nebulous balls of gas where it's

520
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: like it's all the same elements and like you know,

521
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: you're it's still like, yeah, all this stuff is still

522
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: kind of coalescing and stuff like that. And but I

523
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: also think this particular moment in history for me is

524
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: is it's it should be very anchoring or or calibrating

525
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: for all of us, because what it tells you is

526
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: that borders are bullshit, like like it's not real. Borders

527
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: aren't real, Like you know what I'm saying, Like somebody

528
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: just decided that fumes in Yugoslavia, Like Yugoslavia came out

529
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: of this plot of land has been here the whole time.

530
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: On sometime I drew a line around, you know what

531
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: I'm saying, So like a large chunk of the city's

532
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: population are Italian, Like yes, yeah, all of a sudden,

533
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: they just woke up in another country, you know what

534
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: I'm saying. So like that to me, like I need

535
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: everybody remember that when we're talking about our modern politics,

536
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: like the sick came from here and it's made up well,

537
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: and when we're talking about why so many people Because

538
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: one of the things you see in this period is

539
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people who were anarchists become fascists, and

540
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: a lot of fascists become anarchists. And it's because, in

541
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 1: part because when you when you live through a thing

542
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: where suddenly tens of millions of people wake up one

543
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: day in a completely different country than they went to

544
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: sleep in, everything is more malleable, right, Everything is more malleable.

545
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: And it's not obviously like fascism of an anarchism are

546
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: not similar ideologies, but people who are into both may

547
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: be drawn to certain similar things. For example, a major

548
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: aspect of fascism is the cult of action for action's sake,

549
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: the beauty of violence and physical exertion and speed, and

550
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: a lot of anarchists were also into direct action, physical violence,

551
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: fighting like and so if you've got communities that are

552
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: kind of embracing this idea of action for action sake,

553
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: some of them are anarchists, some of them are fascists,

554
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: but a lot of times they're gonna wind up in

555
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: the same fucking places, you know, which is kind of you. Also,

556
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: if you look at Germany prior to Hitler's Rice to Power,

557
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: there were times when the communists and the fascists fought

558
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: alongside each other against the cops. It happened. It's a

559
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: thing that occurred, just this understanding that like, whatever we

560
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: have right now isn't working exactly, like you know what

561
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: I'm saying, like, and so you're all gonna be in

562
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: the same space. Yeah, And a lot of people in

563
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: Fume they're not. They maybe have called themselves a fascist

564
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: and anarchist at the time, where a communist it wasn't

565
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: really settled in their minds. They just knew that what

566
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: they had grown up with was wrong, you know. Um,

567
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: And yeah, So Fume is one of the things that

568
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: comes out of this experiment in Fume is the Italian

569
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: fascist movement gets like solidified in a lot of ways,

570
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: But it starts before like there's thinkers pushing it before then,

571
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: and while do Nunzio is off on his adventure and

572
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: fume um, Benito Mussolini forms a fascist party in March

573
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: twenty three of nineteen nineteen. Now, a lot of the

574
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: impetus behind the early fascists in Italy were demilitarized army

575
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: veterans and particularly special forces guys. UM. Most of the

576
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: fighters who accompanied Nuncio to Fume were members of the

577
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: r d T, which is like the Italian equivalent of

578
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: like Special Forces guys. Like. They were very elite soldiers.

579
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: Mussolini had served in an elite unit of Marksman. Um.

580
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: There were a bunch of like the the guys who

581
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: followed de Nunzio, the RDD were like trench like stormers.

582
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: They would do like what the German stormtroopers would do, um,

583
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: and they were terrifying people. They would go into battle

584
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: with like knives in their teeth and grenades in both hands,

585
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: like running directly ahead of artillery barrages and like this

586
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: is where like a lot of that cult of action

587
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: for actions saying these are adrenaline junkies. That's a huge

588
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: part of early fascists in Italy. And Germany. These are

589
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 1: guys who became addicted to adrenaline during the war and

590
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: can't stop fighting when they get back home. And it's

591
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: a thing that is a factor in our modern fascist movements, right,

592
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of vets and cops and

593
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: stuff wind up in that. UM. I'm also interested in

594
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: just the whenever somebody says I started a political party,

595
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, logistically, what does that look? Was there like paperwork?

596
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: You file? Like, how do you style? Like? I still

597
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: think like, yeah, we'll start a party. We'll talk about

598
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: that in just a second. I want to talk a

599
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: little bit more about some of these demilitarized vets. Yeah,

600
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: there's a form online somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. The r d

601
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: D had been formed in June of nineteen seventeen UM

602
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: as a special forces unit in Italy. UM and they

603
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: were like when they were like sort of um like new.

604
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: One of their commanding officers address the unit, these very

605
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: young men, most of whom came from a peasant background,

606
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: who had gotten to be very good at fighting, extremely

607
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: experienced veterans, and he tells the soldiers, you are the first,

608
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: the best, the future owners of Italy, the new Italian generation.

609
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: Fearless and brilliant. You will prepare the great future of

610
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: Italy the smile of the beautiful Italian woman as your reward.

611
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: You can't tell, you can't tell, no, little like young hungry,

612
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: violent dude. That no, exactly right, Like you see the

613
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: seeds of this, like why so many any of these

614
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: guys become fascists? And as an aside, one of the

615
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: emblems on their uniform that they wore in their hats

616
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: was a skull and crossbones, which is the same basic

617
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: emblem that the Nazi s s, which started as like

618
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: Nazi street fighters before they were a military. And you

619
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: know what they wore, right, Like a lot of the

620
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: same ships happening. These guys. The r d D are

621
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: famous for giving the stiff armed Roman salute the sig

622
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: hile as most people know it. Um like, so a

623
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff again, you see it all cooking

624
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: up in World War One, And by the time the

625
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: war came to an end, the liberal biblical elite in

626
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: Italy knew that these young guys were terrifying that like,

627
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,959
Speaker 1: oh shit, we trained up an entire generation of incredibly

628
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: violent and competent at violence young men, and now we

629
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: have nothing for them to do, like and um that

630
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: they realized this as a problem, they disbanded the r

631
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: d D like immediately after the war ends. It takes

632
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: less than a month. But these guys are still all

633
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: out there and they have no plan for demilitarizing them.

634
00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: And again I could again make some comments about what

635
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: happened in Iraq after we dissolved the entire Iraqi army. Yes,

636
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 1: now it's never a good idea. You have to take

637
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: care of these people afterwards, otherwise they murder people in

638
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: the streets sometime or become the nexus of a fascist

639
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: political party. Um so again. Four months after the armistice

640
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: ended World War One, three months after the r d

641
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: D are disbanded, on March twenty, nineteen nineteen, Benito Mussolini

642
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: puts together a group of one hundred angry young men,

643
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: a mix of Italian war veterans, a lot of them

644
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: special forces type guys, former socialist elected leaders and journalists.

645
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: They meet in Milan and they declare the formation of

646
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: the Fascist Party. So that's how it happens. You get

647
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: a hundred dudes together and you're like, we're a fucking

648
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: political party. Now, start recruiting, and one of Benito's first

649
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: moves is to start recruiting from the disaffected ranks of

650
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: former soldiers. He brings in hundreds of these guys and

651
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: he reorganizes them into paramilitary squads uniformed in black shirts

652
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: and red Fez caps. Mussolini's Black Shirts start going after

653
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: their political opponents in the street now in night. Yeah,

654
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: it's just like the formula doc. Find somebody angry and

655
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: give him a uniform, Give him a uniform, tell him

656
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 1: it's okay to go out and beat the ship out

657
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: of people they already don't like. And I'm already angry,

658
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 1: I'm already pissy. And you say, those dudes are your problem.

659
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: And there's in any society that has just gone through

660
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: a war and is dealing with economic inequality, which Italy

661
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: is at this period, in economic collapse and incompetent political leadership,

662
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: you will be able to find tents, sorry, you will

663
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: be able to find tens of thousands of those whom

664
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: in her are like, yeah, I'll make this my whole life. Absolutely,

665
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: Oh where whatever, Fred Perry shirts, fuck it, let's do it.

666
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: I'll storm the capital. Yes, it's very easy. Yeah, um yes,

667
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: uh so, Mussolini forms the Fascist Party. He starts organizing

668
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: all these squads of black shirts, and for an idea

669
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: of how fast this gets out of hand, in nineteen nineteen,

670
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: Mussolini starts the Fascist Party with a hundred men. By

671
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one, there were three hundred thousand members. Yeah,

672
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna pause here for another little rant about

673
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: modern anti fascism, because this is something that's also relevant

674
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: to us. Over the last four years, since antifa became

675
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: a household name after the first Unite the Right rally

676
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 1: in Charlottesville, liberal celebrities and politicians have repeatedly urged people

677
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 1: not to confront fascists in the streets. Some of even

678
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: complained about doxing, which is the public naming and shaming

679
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: a fascist activist who are caught in the wild doing

680
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: Nazi stuff. Now, the general argument tended to go something

681
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: like this, people showing up to fight them just emboldens

682
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: them and brings more of them out. Ignore them, and

683
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: they'll go away. This was more or less the attitude

684
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: of most, but not all, American liberals throughout much of

685
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: the Trump administration. Antifa tended to be condemned as often

686
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: as groups like the Proud Boys, Police were given a

687
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: free hand to use violence on anti fascists, while fascist

688
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 1: street movements were ignored or directly enabled by law enforcement

689
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: and by political parties. Well a political party. These organizations,

690
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: as a result, grew steadily in power and reach for

691
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: several years now. On January two, liberal activist Amy Siskin tweeted,

692
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: if you live in d C, stay off the streets.

693
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: On January six, let the DC police take care of

694
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: the white supremacists like they did in Oregon yesterday. I

695
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: actually think it will be fun to watch L O L. Yeah.

696
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: Not a take that aged. Well ah yeah. Now, when

697
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: anti fascists say fascist movements have to be confronted immediately

698
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: and often with physical force, they're not always at least

699
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: using bluster or bravado. There's certainly adrenaline junkies within the

700
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: ranks of man. I've met a few of those people. Absolutely,

701
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: But that's not entirely even mostly what that is. It is,

702
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: in fact, a calculation based on a century of documented history.

703
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: Um again, from a hundred to three hundred thousand in

704
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: about two and a half year. Yeah wow, because ain't

705
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: nobody say nothing? Yeah, because they were not enough with

706
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: set You're not enough with set. It's it's yeah, it's

707
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: crazy when you're dealing with like when you, like I said,

708
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: you're already angry. You're already like all you understand is might,

709
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: and it's like you can't reason with somebody that only

710
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: understand might. Yes, but then if I go meet you

711
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: with might and I don't beat you, then we all

712
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: wasted our time and you you feel vindicated because I

713
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: wasn't able to stop you. It's just yeah, this the

714
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: the whole the whole concept just puts everybody in a pickle.

715
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: It's not an easy thing to solve. Yeah, you can't

716
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: solve it, you know what I'm saying, Yeah, I like,

717
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: I mean, the best solution is to oppose them with

718
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: overwhelming numbers, because that actually drastically diminishes the amount of

719
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: violence that there will be because none, none of these

720
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: guys want to get into a fight. If they're out

721
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: number three hundred to one, that's not when the violence happens.

722
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: It's when they have the numbers, or there's parody of numbers,

723
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And that's why people were saying, like,

724
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: what if tens of thousands of people have showed up

725
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: in the streets of DC to protests. I don't think

726
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: they would have made it through the capital barricades. Now

727
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: it's a pandemic. None of this is a simple situation,

728
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: and it wasn't simple in Italy. And we'll talk. We're

729
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: gonna talk now about the anti fascist resistance in Italy

730
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: because in Italian, like Italian fascism did face substantial resistance

731
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: from anarchists and other anti fascists, um, and we're to

732
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: talk about why that didn't wind up working out. Much

733
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: of the anti fascist resistance in Italy also came from

734
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: members of the r d D, from other like uh

735
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: elite soldiers who just like weren't Nazis right, hadn't or

736
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 1: fascists who hadn't been pushed right who had gotten left instead,

737
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: or who just didn't still believed in the idea of democracy.

738
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: Because again, anti fascists in Italy there's a mix of

739
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: like the hard but also just like people who are

740
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: republican right and then like the sense of I support

741
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: a republican form of government, not like not like a

742
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: modern republicans totally different. So the inciting incident for the

743
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: violence between anti fascists and fascists in Italy is generally

744
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: seen to as having been an attack Mussolini ordered on

745
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: April fifteenth, nineteen nineteen, against the newspaper he used to

746
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: write for Avanti, which was the Socialist party in newspaper Um. Now,

747
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: Italian fascists were courageous and often well organized, but they

748
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 1: had to contend with not just fascists but the police

749
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: in the army. This meant that the deck was stacked

750
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 1: against them from the beginning. Meanwhile, events and Fume caused

751
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: Mussolini to realize that he had an advantage in the

752
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: fact that the police and the army were inherently sympathetic

753
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: to fascists. So again we talked about Donunzio's occupation of

754
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: Fume Um in another episode, but a brief refresher here's worthwhile.

755
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: In short, Uh, he occupies Fume for about fifteen months. Um,

756
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of art and weird sex and political churning. Yeah,

757
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: things go a little wild, and eventually the King of

758
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: Italy like is forced to do something. So King Victor

759
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: Emmanuel the Third, whose nickname was little Sword because he's

760
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: a tiny guy. Um, at least he all things to

761
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: be called sword. Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean they're Italians,

762
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: you know, what they're saying. Yeah, that's called it. You

763
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: can't be the king and called little sword. You like,

764
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: he's not a very good king. So um, he's very

765
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: sympathetic to what do Nunzio is doing. He wants Italy

766
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: to control Fume, right, so he thinks that de Nunzio

767
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 1: and his proto fascists are in the right. But also

768
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: Fume went to Yugoslavia by international treaty and he's not

769
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: about to go to war with the rest of Europe

770
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 1: over a city of sixty thou people. So he has

771
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: to send in the army and navy to clear Denuncio

772
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,240
Speaker 1: out in December of nineteen. Now, after this do Nunzio

773
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: spell over the r d D and the other really

774
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: hardened war veterans who had like gone to him and

775
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: us like they're his spell over them is broken and

776
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: they switched their allegiance to Mussolini. So these guys, the

777
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: best fighters, like Mussolini's early guys, aren't really as competent.

778
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: The people who had taken Fume, who were like really

779
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: actually hard and dedicated, um to fucking shut up, Like

780
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: those people start swarming over to Mussolini in mass after

781
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: December of nineteen twenty and they expand the ranks of

782
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: the black Shirts significantly. Um And Mussolini doesn't just benefit

783
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 1: in that way, he also takes a really important lesson

784
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: away from what happens in Fume. And I'm going to

785
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: read a quote from the Warfare History Network, who did

786
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: a great rite up on all of this. This is

787
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: them describing what Mussolini learns from this occupation. The police

788
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: would often overlook fascist depredations in favor of attacking their

789
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: traditional leftist enemies, the socialists. The police would also fire

790
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: on opponents of the monarchy more importantly, the Duce Observed,

791
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 1: which is Mussolini's nickname, So would the military. Therefore, he

792
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: realized he had to win over the king, the police,

793
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: and the armed forces by a clever mix of both

794
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: public bluss and behind the scenes old fashioned political maneuvering

795
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: to attain appointed or elective office by legal means. In

796
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: other words, do Nunzio. He realizes Denuncio was able to

797
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,439
Speaker 1: get this far and occupy the city because the army

798
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: wasn't willing to fight him. The police weren't willing to

799
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: stop him while he was marching there because they're sympathetic

800
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: but when do Nunzio put himself in opposition to the

801
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: Italian crown and the will of the government, the police

802
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: in the army cracked down. They did their duty because

803
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 1: they're loyal to the state inherently. So if he's going

804
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: to win, he can't be fighting them, and he can

805
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: make use of the fact that they're sympathetic if he

806
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: just becomes part of the government. That's the way Mussolini realizes.

807
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: Fascism is not going to win by a revolution. Fascism

808
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: is going to win by democratic means, because the deck

809
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: is stacked in our favor. If we try it that way.

810
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 1: If we try to lead a violent revolution, they'll murder

811
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: us like they would anyone trying to lead a violent revolution.

812
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: If we become part of the government, they'll help us

813
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: crush our enemies and will gain power. Dude, that yeah,

814
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: the finesse because it's yeah, it's when you lay it out,

815
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: it's pretty logical, you know, Like, yeah, a monarch will

816
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 1: talk about something that's lasted thousands, it's in their d

817
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: n a dog, Like you can't you know what I'm saying, Like,

818
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: just it's too it's like it's too much to ask. Yeah,

819
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, it's too much to ask

820
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: these people to try to like go against their very

821
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: nature to be like, but if you if you include

822
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 1: the crown, you keep you're king. We're just gonna get

823
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: rid of the left. Yeah like them anyway, do you

824
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: help us kill him? Like yeah, now, yeah, exactly. Yeah,

825
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: it's very saving. And this is again why I think

826
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: people need to have more of the kind of like

827
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: respect for Mussolini is opposed to seeing him as this

828
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: buffoon is He's the first he he figures it out.

829
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 1: He figures out how fascists are going to win anyway.

830
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: So Mussolini decides, Okay, I have to um, I can't

831
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: do what the anarchists and the communists and the left

832
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: to do and try to like overthrow the government. That's

833
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: not going to work. My path to victory is going

834
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: to be finding a way into the government. And this

835
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: was not hard for him to do. He runs for

836
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: office and in May of nineteen one, he's elected to

837
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 1: the Chamber of Deputies in Rome along with thirty four

838
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: other Fascist Party members. Quick, very quick, and they're kind

839
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: of in the middle of the pack in terms of

840
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: how many elected leaders they have. UM, but they're they're

841
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: in the government now. And Mussolini barely ever showed up

842
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: in chamber because he thought any governing body based around

843
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: him compromising was dumb and not worth listening to. But

844
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: he liked the legitimacy that elected office gave him and

845
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: his party. And it's not a coincidence that nineteen one

846
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: is also the year when the Royal Italian Army joined

847
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: the police and cracking down on anti fascists, because now

848
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: the fascists are part of the government, right, so we

849
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: can yeah now. Becoming an elected leader also gave Mussolini

850
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: immunity from prosecution while he was in office. This was

851
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: helpful because while the Fascist Party gained electoral power, Mussolini's

852
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 1: black shirts were increasingly committing murder. And I'm a quote

853
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: now from a study in the Journal of Values Based Leadership.

854
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: Fascists agitated against the left and streets and neighborhoods across Italy.

855
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: Socialist offices, institutions, and party newspaper headquarters were attacked and burned,

856
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 1: militias organized throughout the country, and anti Bolshevik crusades breaking

857
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: up strikes and fighting labor unions and farmer co ops.

858
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 1: The Fascist squads dressed in black shirts and uniforms, were

859
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: supported by the local police, landowners, merchants, and industrialists. They

860
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: used violence to destroy any organization they felt could be

861
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: an opposition to the doctrine of fascism. Thousands of people

862
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: were beaten, killed, or forced to drink castor oil and

863
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 1: run out of town. Hundreds of union offices, employment centers

864
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: and party newspapers were looted or burnt down. In October

865
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: of nineteen twenty, after the election of a left administration

866
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: in Bologna, fascists invaded the council chamber, causing mayhem and

867
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: nine deaths. The council was suspended by the government. Later,

868
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 1: so again, a left wing administration is elected in this city.

869
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: Fascists invade the council and kill nine people and it's

870
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 1: suspended by the government. Later, socialists and Catholic deputies were

871
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: run out of parliament or had their houses destroyed. The

872
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: two Black Years nineteen two destroyed opposition to the fascists.

873
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: Union organizations were crushed. The Fedya Farmers co Op shrank

874
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 1: from some one million members to less than six thousand

875
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: in less than five years, Unable to defend basic democratic

876
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 1: rights or prevent the criminal activities of a private militia

877
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 1: that operated openly in nationwide the state had lost all credibility. Yo,

878
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: gang banging. Any of that sounds familiar, Yes it does.

879
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: It's yes, it's like, uh, god dug like you. It's something.

880
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: It's something that fascinated me as you was reading. Is

881
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: is like really helping you get into the brain of

882
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: like a fascist to where it's like the government's not

883
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: the head but an appendage. Yeah, like you're just You're

884
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: a You're a You're a tool that I wield, just

885
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: like the population, the labor unions, the military, the street guys.

886
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 1: They're all just they're all just appendages. These are arms,

887
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: their tentacles, but your means to an end. So I'm

888
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: getting into the government not because I feel like that

889
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: means I made it. It's just no, I just need

890
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: to wield the government for my and that like, to me,

891
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: that's like a you just like oh, it's like your

892
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: relationship is transactional, Like it's a functional This isn't the goal.

893
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: I just need that. You're my sword And I'm like, yes, yes, exactly,

894
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: government just a sword. Yeah, this is my weapon that

895
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: I use on you. It's it's not a list of

896
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: as I think a lot of liberal seat It's not

897
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: a series of obligations. It's not a social contract. It's

898
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: a gun. It's a gun. It's a gun. And when

899
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: you get that's crazy, they listen. These Everything we just

900
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: read that the Black Shirts did has been the goal

901
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: for years of the American fascist movement, not just of

902
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: groups like the Proud Boys, but of more extreme and

903
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: explicitly Nazi organizations. Um. You can see evidence of this

904
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 1: in attempted actions of men like Coastguard Lieutenant Christopher Hassan,

905
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: who was caught with an arsenal and a list of

906
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: Democratic lawmakers he planned to murder. UM. This is very

907
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: much what groups like the Proud Boys wanted to do

908
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: to left wing organizations nationwide. It's why you saw so

909
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 1: many groups of right wing counter protesters and malicious show

910
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: up at blm rallies, right. It's why before they were

911
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: showing up at left wing anti fascist events. It's what

912
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: you saw during the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville,

913
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: leftists surrounded and assaulted and mass for standing against fascists.

914
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: One of the great successes of the anti fascist movement

915
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: in the United States that was not Uh. Something that

916
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: we saw in Italy has been the fact that they

917
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: actually did succeed in the widespread disruption of particularly the

918
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: leadership cast of different fascist organizations. Basically everyone involved in

919
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: planning Unite the Right had their life ruined, and most

920
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 1: of them are no longer relevant on the streets. Nobody

921
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: talks about Jason Kesler anymore. Nobody talks all that much

922
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: about Richard Spencer anymore. Um, some of them are in jail, like,

923
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: uh funk, what's that guy's name? The crying not Chris

924
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: can't Well, that's how that was all med I got

925
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: kicked off a tender. Yeah, yeah, that I think that

926
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: happened to him too. Um. And you know a lot

927
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: of them, like Richard Spencer's drowning in legal fees from

928
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: lawsuits from people and and um. Yeah. In two thousand eighteen,

929
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: not just angry at court cases, but angry at the

930
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: fact that his speeches were continuously disrupted by anti fascist activists.

931
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: Richard Spencer complained that's giving these speeches, like having these

932
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: gatherings was no longer fun and quote Antifa is winning. Um. Now,

933
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 1: he wasn't precisely right about that, because January six showed

934
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: that the fight is very far from one. But Spencer

935
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: was eaten, and most of the original wave of fascist leaders,

936
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: the people who wanted to do what Mussolini did, whose

937
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: goal was to do what Mussolini did, guys like Spencer,

938
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 1: they've been fucking sidelined, which means that most of the

939
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: people who are prominent now have not been prominent in

940
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: in the position of leadership for all that long. So

941
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: while you have groups like the Proud Boys that have

942
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 1: been around this whole time, militias that go back quite

943
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,919
Speaker 1: a while, and more extreme groups that go back quite

944
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: a while. UM, a lot of the leaders have been

945
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,919
Speaker 1: disrupted one way or the other, have had their lives

946
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: bucked up, and it's stopped them from doing in some

947
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: ways what maybe they might have otherwise done. It stopped

948
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 1: them from gaining as much power, it stopped their organizations

949
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: from being as cohesive. UM. Some organizations have been shut down,

950
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 1: like Identity Europa. UM. So it's this has been if

951
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: we want to look at like successes of a modern

952
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: anti fascist movement, that's been one of them. And I

953
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 1: think we can credit that for the fact that the

954
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: attack on the Capitol on the sixth was not better

955
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: organized or more cohesive. Because there has been disruption of

956
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: these movements. I want to know what else would be

957
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: a disruption of our our movements right now, Robert Baku,

958
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,479
Speaker 1: that is going to disrupt my train of thoughts significantly. Yeah,

959
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: I don't like that. I decided to do that. But America,

960
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,919
Speaker 1: that happened. How manna eat a chip? That's a good call.

961
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: Everybody eat a chip. We're back. So prop I think

962
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: you had you had something on your mind before we Uh,

963
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 1: damn it. What the hell was I going to say? Break?

964
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: What was I going to say? Um? Oh um? There's

965
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 1: something that I think the these all school fascist did

966
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: oh school wow um that these new guys they haven't

967
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: done it. Yeah, I think that's why it's It's one

968
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: of those things. It's a fine it's a fine um distinction,

969
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: because I do think there's a lot of value in

970
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 1: showing these people as as absurd and as sad as

971
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: they are. Um, you have to do it without also

972
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: making them feel like they're not a threat, which is hard. Yeah,

973
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: that's a that's a and And thankfully, I think one

974
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: of the positives of how bad everything went on the

975
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: sixth is that as absurd as it is in. One

976
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: of the difficulties about talking about this movement to people

977
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: for a while has been that like, folks, um, we're like, okay, well,

978
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: these are just a bunch of of coops on the

979
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: internet wearing dumpach t shirts about Q, Like why should

980
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: I take this seriously? That's why you should take it

981
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: seriously because yes, you just yeah, it's something again like dangerous. Yes,

982
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: when you when you? When you? That's why I said earlier.

983
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: It's like somebody hungry and angry like you. If somebody

984
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: tell you they're willing to die, believe them. You know

985
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like you, you should believe them. You

986
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: take you underestimated something you learned living in just the

987
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: inner city. You don't underestimate anybody, like if you know,

988
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: if they presented it to you, Like I just I

989
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 1: don't know how hungry you are. I might look like

990
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: your lunch now if I can overpower you, or there's

991
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 1: a whole other scenario, but you right, like, I'm not

992
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 1: gonna underestimate you. And I really feel like you know,

993
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 1: fast forwarding or yeah, bringing us back to now is

994
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 1: that I'm not sure you know, Oh, oh, Joe Biden

995
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: really understand how serious your situation is. And I don't

996
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: think he doesn't say they was gonna kill you, because like,

997
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 1: I don't think you understand they that man somebody come

998
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: into a Capitol building with a Viking horn, that man

999
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: don't care about his life. He gonna kill you, Yeah, exactly,

1000
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 1: And I think I don't know that is Again one

1001
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 1: of the problems is I think a lot more people

1002
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: are taking it seriously. But I don't think Joe Biden is.

1003
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 1: I don't think he's I don't think you. I don't

1004
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: think you understand, bro, Like you know, don't you understand

1005
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: the severity of situation not done on the twenty big

1006
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: dog like, we're not We're not done. Yeah, there's a

1007
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 1: bunch of people out there who if they had gotten

1008
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: who if they get their hands on you, will do

1009
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: great harm to you. And they almost did it once

1010
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:18,799
Speaker 1: in their heads at least. Uh you know. Yeah, So

1011
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about We go on a little bit

1012
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 1: of a tangent there, but I want to talk about

1013
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 1: the Italian anti fascists. So we just talked about kind

1014
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 1: of what I see is one of the big successes

1015
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: of the American anti fascist movement. I want to talk

1016
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: about why the Italian anti fascist movement did not succeed. Um.

1017
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,919
Speaker 1: So the Italian anti fascists began to raise their own

1018
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: proper army in July of ninete, because again, the fascists

1019
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: had an army, The black Shirts were an army and

1020
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: it was doing great damage to not just like anarchists,

1021
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 1: but to all left wing movements around the country. So

1022
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: they formed their own army, the r d T del Popolo,

1023
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: like the People's urdd I think, um, so again they're

1024
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,800
Speaker 1: still using that norm. A lot of them are veterans,

1025
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 1: and they were heterogeneous mix of anarchists, syndicalists, socialists, communists,

1026
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: republicans and other non authoritarian ideologies. The r d T

1027
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: del Populo were popular among the lower classes among poor

1028
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: Italians because they had no party affiliations than they offered

1029
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: protection from the fascists, who were basically a violent gang. Now,

1030
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: there were other militias style groups that confronted fascists, including

1031
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: the r d T Rossi, which was a communist organization,

1032
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: but the local Communist party forbade them from allying with

1033
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: the anarchists and the Republicans and the like, because like,

1034
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: you guys aren't our fan friends either right. This is

1035
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: again you see this happening in Germany. Now, there were

1036
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 1: communists who were part of the r d T del Populo,

1037
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: but they weren't like party communists, you know, there's a

1038
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: difference between those two things. And communists in this era

1039
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: is used a lot for people who were like very

1040
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: anti authoritarian. Um, a lot of folks would consider them

1041
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: basically anarchists today, and also for people who are like Stalinists,

1042
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: you know, um, and that they weren't Stalinist yet because

1043
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: it was you know, nineteen I was like, wait one,

1044
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 1: but like they that's where they that's where they're they were,

1045
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 1: they were headed. Um. Yeah. So on July the r

1046
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: d T del Populo held their first national Congress. One

1047
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 1: of their leaders, a guy named Argo Secondary, outlined the

1048
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: organization's goals in a speech, and uh, this is Argo here.

1049
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: The r d T del Populo's action has to be defensive,

1050
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: but defense means above all, to prevent and to render

1051
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: impossible any harm that can be caused by the adversary.

1052
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: The r d D del Populo do not carry out

1053
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: punitive expeditions, but perform acts of justice. They do not

1054
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: carry terror into the population, but to fend the people

1055
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 1: and organize their security. That is why the r d

1056
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 1: T del Populo welcome members of various parties and contain

1057
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: representatives of all political beliefs. They do not intend to

1058
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: make politics, but leave this to the already existing parties

1059
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: and economic organizations. The r d T del Populo must

1060
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: act like a worker's army and give the proletariat defense

1061
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: and protection. That's not gonna work. Yeah, yeah, they tried, um.

1062
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 1: Now you want to guess why it didn't work. They

1063
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: had no actual goals. They were just like, we're just

1064
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: They're like, oh no, there's no platforms in my head.

1065
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, ain't no platform. You just said we're gonna

1066
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 1: lead that to the government. Yeah, we're just gonna make

1067
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: sure like no food of government's compromise. Anyway. Tell me

1068
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: to answer. That is a great, That is a great.

1069
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: You know, that didn't even a credit. You're you're right,

1070
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: like these guys are saying, our only goal is to

1071
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: defend you from the fascists, but that's not nearly as

1072
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: popular as saying, hey, here's what we we're the fascist,

1073
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 1: here's what we believe, here's our platform, here's what change,

1074
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 1: and we have this army, right, that is that is

1075
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 1: a very good point, Like, like you said, they're leaving

1076
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: the platform up to the government who is not on

1077
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,439
Speaker 1: their side, and like you yeah, yeah, yeah, Now that's

1078
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 1: not everybody, right. There's a lot of anarchists and stuff

1079
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: who aren't saying like I think we should leave it

1080
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 1: to the government, but they are saying like, I'm not

1081
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 1: going to I think that fighting fascism with these other

1082
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: people is more importan than you know, pushing my own

1083
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: political beliefs in this necess in this area, which is

1084
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: I think a respectable thing to take. But it was

1085
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: a problem that there was not a concerted, organized, um

1086
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: counter left wing movement that was like that, that had

1087
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: like a solid platform and the to the extent that

1088
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: the fascist did. Right, there were different left wing groups

1089
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: that confronted them and had platforms, but it was not

1090
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: like what it was, not on the side and the

1091
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: same scale, you know, And that's a problem that anti

1092
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 1: fascists still have today. Right, there's a strength in saying

1093
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: like hey, if you're a communist, if you're an anarchist,

1094
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: if you're just a libertarian who's not an authoritarian, if

1095
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: you're a democrat, like come join us we're just trying

1096
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: to fight the fascist. But there's a weakness in well.

1097
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: But also we don't agree on anything other than that. Yeah,

1098
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: and it's like okay, cool, so what if you win? Yeah,

1099
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 1: what do we do? Or how do you win? If

1100
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 1: they have a thing they believe that they're fighting for

1101
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: and you're mainly fighting against them, that that is true.

1102
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 1: There's a good point to that, um. And there's obviously

1103
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: there's a lot of anti fascists who do who wrap

1104
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: their anti fascism in um, this is part of the

1105
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: struggle against capitalism, this is part of the struggle for

1106
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: a better world. This is part of a revolutionary that's

1107
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: a lot of it today. Um. And those people did

1108
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: exist in Italy at the time. But this large organized

1109
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: the r DD del Populo, isn't really doing that, um.

1110
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: And it's it's part of their downfall, I guess, um,

1111
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: because the government starts spying on them, as is always

1112
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: the case whenever that is organized in any government. I've

1113
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: been undefeated, boy. Yeah. And the in Italy's FBI equivalent

1114
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: actually did confirm in a report to the government that

1115
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: the r d T del Populo had quote only one

1116
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: principal aim that is to react against fascism with the

1117
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 1: same means that are employed against them, i e. Arm defense.

1118
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: So the the Italy is like FBI equivalent is like

1119
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: these guys are only there too for defensive purposes. But

1120
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: despite this, the government orders a crackdown on the r

1121
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: d T del Popular. They enforce anti paramilitary laws against them,

1122
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: They dissolve local cells, they imprison many leaders and members,

1123
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 1: and by October the organization is essentially defunct. Now no

1124
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: actions were taken against the black Shirts, and as a result,

1125
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: by the end of nineteen twenty one, the Mussolini's Fascist

1126
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 1: Party had more than a quarter of a million members

1127
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: or members something like that. Um, this is one of

1128
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 1: those situations where like, yeah, your house is getting broken

1129
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 1: into and you called a police and the police arrest you. Yeah, like, bam,

1130
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 1: this is my house. Like I'm telling you, I'm not

1131
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: the problem. I don't understand this. I'm telling you this

1132
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 1: is the issue. And I were going to book them.

1133
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 1: Dano It's like, oh, man, like I feel like I

1134
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 1: don't know, That's what it sounded like to me. I'm like,

1135
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 1: you're trading the wronghood right now. Yeah, the police cracked

1136
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 1: down pretty in the army cracked down exclusively on the

1137
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: anti fascists, and the fascists are allowed to continue to organize,

1138
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 1: and they said, like they used the same laws against

1139
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:47,439
Speaker 1: them they could have used on the fascist for having

1140
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 1: the black shirts. They just don't choose the shoes. And

1141
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: the part that don't make sense and continues to not

1142
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 1: make sense is like you said, the fascists are telling

1143
01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: you the platform, this is our plan. You've gonna overthrow

1144
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 1: you and put all our guys in power. And that's

1145
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: our dude, that's our plan. Oh you want our side, Okay, cool?

1146
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's because they it's you know, it's it's

1147
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 1: it's because hatred of the left unites the fascists and

1148
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: the people who wouldn't necessarily be whole hog in on

1149
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: fascism but are because they hate the left, which is

1150
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: you know why this this keeps happening and why um, yeah,

1151
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 1: it's it's it's frustrating we deal with versions of the

1152
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: same problem today. And this is why I don't suggest

1153
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 1: people who are talking about like, well, in the wake

1154
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 1: of the sixth we need a new anti domestic terrorism statutes,

1155
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: like that's only going to be used on the left,

1156
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 1: Like they'll do. They'll use it once on a couple

1157
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: of proud boys, and then it will be used against

1158
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 1: leftists for decades. That's the way it's going to happen.

1159
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: And Muslims, you know, anyone who's not a white conservative

1160
01:03:55,880 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 1: a man. So as we know the problem is white people. Yeah,

1161
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 1: white people. Basically everybody's white. So that's really pretty easy

1162
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: to say. Now. Yeah, so I'm just kidding by the

1163
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 1: bastards listeners. I'm just kidding. I'm much more nuanced than that.

1164
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 1: I'm not kidding behind the bastards listeners. So uh d

1165
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: early nineteen twenty two, the anti fascist resistance has been

1166
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: heavily like, not completely eliminated, but very badly broken. Um,

1167
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 1: the fascists are ASTs, and that they have hundreds of

1168
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: thousands of members. They have elected leaders in government. Um.

1169
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: Now again they're kind of middle rung when it came

1170
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 1: to their actual number of elected leaders. They're not in

1171
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: charge at all. But Benito didn't care about how many

1172
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 1: actual elected deputies they said. He famously stated, I prefer

1173
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: fifty thousand rifles to fifty votes. What mattered to him

1174
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 1: was having a presence in the halls of power, which

1175
01:04:57,640 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 1: would enable him to get those rifles on his side.

1176
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 1: And of course the government's already shown that they're going

1177
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 1: to let him a crew rifles while they stopped his

1178
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 1: opponents from getting rivals. Yeah. Now, Mussolini starts in nineteen

1179
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 1: twenty two sketching out the dimensions of an ambitious and

1180
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 1: daring plan for a power grap He had spent the

1181
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 1: last year so placing strategic groups of fascists around the country,

1182
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: replacing shattered left wing trade unions with their fascist equivalent,

1183
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: which allowed him to organize postal workers, cab drivers, and

1184
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: other working communities. He expanded the black Shirts into a

1185
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: force of tens of thousands, a veritable paramilitary army. On

1186
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: October sixteenth, nineteen twenty two, he convened a meeting in

1187
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 1: Milan with his most trusted deputies, including the three commanders

1188
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 1: of the Black Shirts and two retired Italian Army generals.

1189
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: He announced that he was planning to organize a mass

1190
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 1: march on Rome. He would gather a force of tens

1191
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 1: of thousands of black Shirts and march to occupy the

1192
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 1: capital and force a change of government. At this stage,

1193
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 1: Mussolini did not think that he was going to be

1194
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 1: the head of that government. Instead, his goal was to

1195
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 1: force a coalition a liberal prime minister with five fascist

1196
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 1: ministers basically like um cabinet secretaries kind of who would

1197
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 1: be the real power behind the scenes. So he wanted

1198
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: to have a liberal like in front and have it

1199
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: all be run by fascists. Right, Okay. So the actual

1200
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 1: inspiration for the March on Rome came not from Mussolini

1201
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,480
Speaker 1: but from the secretary of the National Fascist Party, Michelle Bianci.

1202
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 1: Bianci wanted an armed fascist insurrection to force the liberal

1203
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 1: ruling class to hand over power to Mussolini himself rather

1204
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: than even paying lip service to the idea of liberal democracy,

1205
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: and Bianci eventually like convinced everyone to go with his plan.

1206
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: Now true to form, Mussolini took credit for it, later

1207
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 1: claiming that the march. The plan for the March on

1208
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: Rome had come to him after a rally in September

1209
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: when his supporters had chanted to Rome to Rome. But

1210
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 1: in any case, by October of nineteen two, he's ready

1211
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: to do this. Ship. So Mussolini gives a speech to

1212
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: about sixty his followers at a fascist congress Naples on

1213
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: October and he tells them, our program is simple. We

1214
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 1: want to rule Italy now. As he spoke on the

1215
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 1: it's of his black shirts were fanning out to occupy

1216
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 1: key locations around Italy in preparation for this march on Rome.

1217
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 1: In all, some twenty six thousand fascist paramilitaries assembled with

1218
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 1: illegal arms and ammunition from the Warfare History Network quote.

1219
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 1: Illicit stores of arms and ammunition were received secretly from

1220
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 1: sympathetic police stations and some army barracks, while armories and

1221
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 1: even museums were raided for antique firearms. The overall array

1222
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 1: of weaponry included shotguns, muskets, powdered loaded pistols, golf clubs, scythes,

1223
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 1: garden hose, tree roots, table legs, dynamite sticks, dried salt, codfish,

1224
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 1: and even an ox's jawbone. What just whatever they can

1225
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: beat someone with. If they can't get a gun, it's

1226
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 1: anything they can hit someone with. And imagine an antique

1227
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 1: weapon already in that's an old gun. That's an old gun, boy. Yeah,

1228
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 1: it's just whatever they can get your hands. So that

1229
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 1: was you actually answered one of the questions I had.

1230
01:07:56,520 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 1: I was like, so, if they're marching to Rome, where

1231
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 1: are they coming from? Say, coming from everywhere? He's in

1232
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: Naples right now. They coming from everywhere. They are coming

1233
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 1: from everywhere, and they have horses and carts, trucks and wagons.

1234
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 1: They even have a race car with the machine gun

1235
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: mounted to it, and they have guys riding on trains

1236
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 1: that style and finesse. There's some style in the machine

1237
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 1: gun races. And a lot of people are just marching

1238
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:27,600
Speaker 1: on foot too. Now, obviously this is a cause for

1239
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 1: concern for some people in the government. Two days after

1240
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 1: the Naples speech, former Italian Prime Minister Antonio Cilandra becomes

1241
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:36,800
Speaker 1: aware of Mussolini's plans and he warns the current prime

1242
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 1: minister that the Fascist leader was organizing an armed march

1243
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: on the capitol. Cilandra's intelligence told him that Mussolini planned

1244
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 1: to demand the prime minister's resignation and demand that he

1245
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 1: be appointed head of the government instead, So the prime

1246
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:52,600
Speaker 1: minister obviously is also worried by this. He goes to

1247
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 1: the King with this warning and he asks the King

1248
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 1: for permission to use the police in military to suppress

1249
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:01,240
Speaker 1: the fascists. The King refuses. So the reason the King

1250
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 1: says no is that he had just sat down with

1251
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 1: his Minister of War, General Armando Diaz. Now, the general

1252
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: who was not quite well, who was basically a fascist,

1253
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:12,479
Speaker 1: tells the king that if he asks the army to

1254
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 1: stop Mussolini, quote, the army will do its duty, but

1255
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:18,719
Speaker 1: it would be better not to put it to the test. Basically,

1256
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 1: he's like another the army likes these guys that you

1257
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:25,840
Speaker 1: really shouldn't you really shouldn't try it. So King Victor

1258
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 1: Emmanuel the Third, the little Sword was not like an

1259
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 1: ideological fascist. I know, it's very silly, oh man, what

1260
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 1: if that was his like tender profile, a little little sword.

1261
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:41,719
Speaker 1: He's not a fascist in the sense that he doesn't

1262
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,560
Speaker 1: believe in fascism. He believes in a monarchy, and more specifically,

1263
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:48,719
Speaker 1: he believes in a monarchy where he's the monarch. Now

1264
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: by nineteen twenty two, the Kingdom of Italy is in

1265
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:54,639
Speaker 1: bad financial straits. World War One had been a disaster

1266
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 1: for the country. The great like not the Great Depression,

1267
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 1: but like an economic collapse has hit Europe as a

1268
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 1: result of the end of the war. It's horrible in Munich.

1269
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 1: In this period of time, to write, political violence in

1270
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 1: the streets had reached a fever pitch, largely thanks to

1271
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 1: Mussolini's black Shirts, and the king was afraid there might

1272
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 1: be a civil war. More than anything, he was worried

1273
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 1: about the rising Italian left. The Socialist Party had a

1274
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,599
Speaker 1: hundred and forty six members in the Chamber of Deputies

1275
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,679
Speaker 1: and the Communists had eleven, giving them together nearly five

1276
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:26,640
Speaker 1: times as much elected representation as the fascists. Now, communists

1277
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 1: and socialists aren't big fans of kings, and Victor Emmanuel

1278
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,800
Speaker 1: crudely calculated the fascists would let him continue to be

1279
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:38,479
Speaker 1: the king. He also, and this is important, calculated that

1280
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 1: the middle class would back the fascists if it meants

1281
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: crushing the left, and he was right on both counts.

1282
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: Some of the king's generals did push back and demand

1283
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 1: he signed orders to send the army out after the

1284
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:52,240
Speaker 1: black Shirts. The King threatened to abdicate at this, and

1285
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:54,879
Speaker 1: sinuating that this would put Italy in the same position

1286
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,799
Speaker 1: as Russia had been in when the Czar abdicated. Basically,

1287
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:00,520
Speaker 1: if you forced me to use the army on these fascists,

1288
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 1: I will leave the throne. And you saw what happened

1289
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:11,520
Speaker 1: to Russia when you don't want those scary Bolsheviks being insurance. Yeah,

1290
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 1: you it's like that's I see. That's why I like

1291
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, that's to me, that's

1292
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:23,320
Speaker 1: like the problem with like when you only understand the

1293
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 1: world via like power broke, you're brokering in my you know,

1294
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:33,959
Speaker 1: um like in my mind, Like I take two weird comparison.

1295
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 1: But if you take like Mike Pence is like position

1296
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: right now like with the moment or president being impeached,

1297
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 1: it's like he if for lack of better term, either way,

1298
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: he's a bit because it's like, first of all, it's

1299
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: not like it's not like Donald Trump has ever respected you,

1300
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: because you do what the hell he tells you to do,

1301
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So it's like this man,

1302
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 1: this man was gonna let these they was yelling to

1303
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 1: kill you, and he didn't stop it. And you ain't

1304
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:04,800
Speaker 1: do ship, Mike, you ain't do ship. You let this

1305
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 1: man and you're still gonna back this man. You're a bitch,

1306
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. At the one time he publicly disagrees

1307
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 1: with you, and then he calls for your head and

1308
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 1: they want to take it, and then and if they

1309
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:18,679
Speaker 1: got the chance there whatever, and you didn't say nothing.

1310
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 1: You're a bitch, you know what I'm saying. So it's like,

1311
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm saying that tonguey, you can understand what

1312
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 1: we're trying to say. Yeah, so it's like you're okay.

1313
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 1: So then so then Nancy Pelosi and and and with

1314
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 1: it with the Democrats, with the impeachment being and so

1315
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 1: it's almost like them saying, Yo, get your boy before

1316
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 1: we do, right, so then so now and and then

1317
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 1: if he doesn't, if he doesn't, if he doesn't stop

1318
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:45,559
Speaker 1: the impeachment, you're a bitch again, you know what I'm saying.

1319
01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 1: If you don't call for you're a bit, you feel me.

1320
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 1: So it's just like, no matter what the moral of

1321
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 1: the story is, you should have never signed up to

1322
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 1: play with this man, you know what I'm saying. So

1323
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 1: it shouldn't have got here in the first place because

1324
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,599
Speaker 1: all this, all these people understand it's power brokery. So

1325
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:06,680
Speaker 1: when you so, if you King low Sword, you feel me,

1326
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 1: you set yourself up to a situation where these people

1327
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:14,640
Speaker 1: only understand power. Either way, You're a bit, you know

1328
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like, I just I don't I mean,

1329
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm I hate saying it like that. I just because

1330
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 1: it's like I'm not trying to like throw shrapnel towards

1331
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying a derogatory terms sword female,

1332
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. That's not what I'm trying

1333
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: to say, but I am saying, just in street terms,

1334
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 1: that's what we mean. There's you can't You've put yourself

1335
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:42,160
Speaker 1: in a position where you can't leave this unscathed. Yep. Yeah,

1336
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 1: and it's yeah, that's kind of where we are here.

1337
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 1: And so the king and also a lot of liberal

1338
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:53,599
Speaker 1: elected leaders are like, Okay, let's like let's let these

1339
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:55,680
Speaker 1: people in. Let's let them do it. They're not as

1340
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 1: scary as these leftists. So let's left the fascists into

1341
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:02,679
Speaker 1: the government. Can you imagine being you imagine being a king?

1342
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:06,120
Speaker 1: Whereas like my bloodline go back to the fifteen hunt.

1343
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 1: It's and I'm no one that's about to lose the

1344
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lose this crown, you know what I'm saying.

1345
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 1: So I get the calculation. It's just you're it's just

1346
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:18,599
Speaker 1: you're the you're the punk in this. Yeah, you're starting

1347
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 1: the ball of fascism rolling in Europe because you want

1348
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 1: to keep it thrown and because a lot of other

1349
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 1: elected leaders so when his so his prime minister resigns

1350
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:28,479
Speaker 1: when it becomes clear that the King is not going

1351
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:31,720
Speaker 1: to stop the fascist and a bunch of former prime ministers,

1352
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:34,720
Speaker 1: many of them liberals, start petitioning the king to make

1353
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 1: them the prime minister again so that they can make

1354
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:40,679
Speaker 1: Mussolini their vice minister to placate the fascists. So like again,

1355
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: establishment politicians cannot wait to make a deal with the fascists,

1356
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:49,599
Speaker 1: like couldn't do it fast enough? Um, yeah. The King

1357
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:52,520
Speaker 1: says no though, because the King has decided that Mussolini's

1358
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 1: going to be the new premier, right, that he's just

1359
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: going to give him straight to the big job. And

1360
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 1: while all this is going on, the black Shirts are marching.

1361
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,720
Speaker 1: So years later Mussolini would claim to have marched on

1362
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 1: foot with his soldiers all the way to the capital.

1363
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 1: The reality is that he stayed in Milan for the

1364
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 1: first day. A few days of the march, he was

1365
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 1: seen at the theater just yeah, he's not stay back here,

1366
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 1: just in case. Well, it's like how Donald Trump tells

1367
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:17,960
Speaker 1: his crowd to like march on the capitol and then

1368
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 1: goes back home. He's like, that's the problem, Like, do

1369
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:26,360
Speaker 1: y'all see this man behind bulletproof glass. They've got guns

1370
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:28,680
Speaker 1: over there. I'm not doing that, you know, So like

1371
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:31,720
Speaker 1: why you followed his man? Yeah? I feel like when

1372
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 1: you might get shot anyway? Good luck? Yeah, yeah, I'm good.

1373
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 1: Don't you see his glass? Yeah? So, uh yeah. He

1374
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:42,439
Speaker 1: stays in Milan. He keeps a getaway car gassed up

1375
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 1: and ready prepared to flee to Switzerland. Actually more ready

1376
01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 1: to flee for Switzerland than he is to actually go

1377
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:49,479
Speaker 1: to Rome, because he's sure they're going to crack down

1378
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:52,040
Speaker 1: on this. He's just making a gamble. He doesn't think

1379
01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:56,200
Speaker 1: it's gonna work. Plan B. Eventually, though, after several days,

1380
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:58,879
Speaker 1: he realizes that the king is not going to institute

1381
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 1: martial law to stop the march, and that he'd won.

1382
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:03,559
Speaker 1: Like this is a dawning realization while he's in Milan

1383
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 1: that like, oh shit, we're getting away with this. So

1384
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: that has to be Donald Trump. He's very there's some

1385
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:13,799
Speaker 1: similarities where he was like wait wait, wait what wait

1386
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 1: what kind of shocked that this had worked. Mussolini starts

1387
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 1: scrambling to dress himself up as the revolutionary leader. It

1388
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:23,760
Speaker 1: now kind of seemed like he was and I'm gonna

1389
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:28,320
Speaker 1: quote now from the Warfare Historical Network. Mussolini's own Milan

1390
01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:31,400
Speaker 1: newspaper office, where he was staying, was barricaded with huge

1391
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:34,240
Speaker 1: rolls of newsprint, paper and barbed wire, and guarded by

1392
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:37,320
Speaker 1: a curious mix of fascist police and army troops. His

1393
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:40,200
Speaker 1: second floor offices featured hand grenades and desk trays, and

1394
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 1: the fluster Duca himself was seen brandishing a rifle. Melodramatically,

1395
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:47,599
Speaker 1: he wrote in his nineteen autobiography, there was a rapid

1396
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:49,960
Speaker 1: exchange of shots. I had my rifle loaded and went

1397
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:52,920
Speaker 1: down to defend the doors. Bullets whizzed around my ears.

1398
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 1: This is all a lie. The reality is that the

1399
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 1: Milan police chief refused to even arrest him. The mayor

1400
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:00,599
Speaker 1: and commander of the Royal Guard asked for a truce

1401
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 1: with the fascists and withdrew their men from around his office. UM.

1402
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 1: There was no real crackdown taken on Mussolini directly whatsoever. Now,

1403
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 1: while his militia march, they took over telephone switchboards, telegraph offices,

1404
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 1: water works, and other government buildings. UM very little resistance

1405
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:19,360
Speaker 1: to this. About seven black Shirts are shot dead by

1406
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 1: the army in various skirmishes. UM During this period of time,

1407
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:25,559
Speaker 1: and about a dozen people die. Over the course of

1408
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:29,120
Speaker 1: the March on Rome. Mussolini gets increasingly confident. His phone

1409
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:31,439
Speaker 1: calls start coming in from the Royal Palace from the King,

1410
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:33,800
Speaker 1: but he refuses the first three calls from the King

1411
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 1: because Mussolini does understand how power works, and he knows

1412
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:38,680
Speaker 1: that when you got him on the ropes, you want him,

1413
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 1: you got to bring him a little bit closer, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1414
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:42,840
Speaker 1: we want to make a call. I'm not gonna take

1415
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:44,720
Speaker 1: that first call. I'm gonna take that second of that.

1416
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Get him close, get him close.

1417
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 1: That's how you do it. So eventually he decided that

1418
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 1: his men had occupied enough territory that he felt confident

1419
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 1: that King was not going to turn around and shoot

1420
01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 1: him as a trader if he showed up in Rome.

1421
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:01,640
Speaker 1: So on the night of October twenty nine, Benito Mussolini

1422
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:04,400
Speaker 1: took a sleeper train from Milan to Rome for the

1423
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:06,840
Speaker 1: soon to be dictator. The march on Rome consisted of

1424
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:09,479
Speaker 1: a single fourteen hour train. Right, so he does no marching.

1425
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 1: He takes a train right into the capitol while his

1426
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:16,720
Speaker 1: guys are marching and fighting. No I'm not marching to Rome.

1427
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:24,960
Speaker 1: Are you talking about marching? We got trains now. Benito

1428
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 1: would later lie about every major aspect of the march

1429
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:29,960
Speaker 1: on Rome. The reality is that about seven Black Shirts

1430
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:32,320
Speaker 1: again were shot and a dozen people died. Once they

1431
01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:34,920
Speaker 1: were in power, the fascists claimed that three thousand people

1432
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,759
Speaker 1: had been killed in vicious fighting for control of the capital,

1433
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:41,439
Speaker 1: just a lie to make it seem heroic. When he

1434
01:18:41,479 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 1: finally met the King, Mussolini's first words were, your majesty,

1435
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 1: will forgive my attire. I have come from the battlefield.

1436
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:57,200
Speaker 1: You came from Milan, dude, Yo, two points for style. Yeah, no,

1437
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:01,320
Speaker 1: it's a good line. It's a good just came from battle. Yeah.

1438
01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 1: The bluff a like fighting where I told the army

1439
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:12,240
Speaker 1: not to fight you. Yeah. So, Victor Emmanuel has to

1440
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,680
Speaker 1: have known Mussolini was lying about that, but he liked Mussolini.

1441
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 1: He considered him a quote man of purpose, and he

1442
01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:22,120
Speaker 1: appointed him his premier foreign minister and Interior Minister. On

1443
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:25,439
Speaker 1: October thirty one, the day after Mussolini's meeting with the King,

1444
01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 1: his Black Shirts finally arrived in Rome. He had them

1445
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 1: turn around immediately and marched to the train station so

1446
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 1: they could go home. As the fascist columns withdrew, the

1447
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:46,960
Speaker 1: king declared, Mussolini has saved the nation. That is hilarious. Yeah,

1448
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:54,120
Speaker 1: I recapt that buss set I sent y'all got what

1449
01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:58,800
Speaker 1: I needed, Then I sent you back, did you saying?

1450
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:02,120
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, it's great. It's a great position to

1451
01:20:02,160 --> 01:20:04,639
Speaker 1: be in if you're Mussolini. He's really right and high

1452
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: right now, because a lot of Italians agreed that he'd

1453
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:11,280
Speaker 1: saved the nation. Because people are really fucking dumb. And

1454
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,080
Speaker 1: again you have to assume very little access to accurate

1455
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:18,080
Speaker 1: news about what was happening Antennas. Now, the Roman middle

1456
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 1: class was overjoyed by the lack of violence and by

1457
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 1: the fact that the dreaded anarchy and the threat of

1458
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:26,880
Speaker 1: a communist revolution had been avoided. The stock market rose

1459
01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:29,759
Speaker 1: on news of of Mussolini's power grab, and I should

1460
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:33,040
Speaker 1: note here that on January six, the Russell two thousand

1461
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:36,400
Speaker 1: index of small capitalization stocks rose three point seven percent,

1462
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:40,720
Speaker 1: while the SMP five point six percent. Now this had

1463
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,000
Speaker 1: less to do with the stock market loving the fact

1464
01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 1: that there had been an attempt to take over the

1465
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,799
Speaker 1: capital and more to do with it loving stability, because

1466
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:51,160
Speaker 1: January six ended with everybody repudiating the president and the

1467
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:53,920
Speaker 1: certainty that there would be a transfer of power. And

1468
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 1: but that's kind of the same reason why the stock

1469
01:20:56,280 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 1: markets raised when Mussolini like took power. It's because someone

1470
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:04,080
Speaker 1: was in power, there was certainty. Yeah, that's that. I

1471
01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:06,160
Speaker 1: love that. I love that you brought that up, because

1472
01:21:06,200 --> 01:21:09,680
Speaker 1: like if you if you want to talk about you know,

1473
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 1: big corporations, you know one percenter's high money, they are

1474
01:21:14,640 --> 01:21:23,080
Speaker 1: still beholden to a stable government that will um like

1475
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:26,760
Speaker 1: affirm and support their contracts. Like if I got contracts

1476
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 1: all over the place and you breeched this contract, I

1477
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 1: want to be able to sue the crap out of you.

1478
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:32,679
Speaker 1: So I gotta take you to a course that means

1479
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:35,760
Speaker 1: I have to have a government stable enough that says

1480
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:40,839
Speaker 1: so so so yeah so so so. It has no

1481
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 1: no moral value either way. I just need y'all to

1482
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:46,600
Speaker 1: chill and if and if and if there's somebody that

1483
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 1: can stop at you now that y'all agree, cool. I

1484
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 1: don't care what you agree with as long as y'all

1485
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:56,479
Speaker 1: agree so that my money can keep coming. So that's that.

1486
01:21:56,479 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 1: That that that point about the stock market, that's dope, man,

1487
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 1: that that's the was stuff that Like, you know, I

1488
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,880
Speaker 1: always always cringe any anytime any leader, I don't care

1489
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 1: who you are saying, Well, the stock market rose, this

1490
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:09,120
Speaker 1: is like man like that guy I got not They

1491
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:10,679
Speaker 1: just want you all to you know what I'm saying

1492
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 1: like that. That doesn't that's not the indicator that you

1493
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 1: that you say it is. Yep, it's not um and

1494
01:22:19,320 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 1: it's it's yeah, it's a sign. It's a sign that

1495
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:24,680
Speaker 1: the people who are rich are confident they're going to

1496
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:29,880
Speaker 1: continue to be rich. And that's that's that's where fascism's

1497
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:31,880
Speaker 1: power traditionally comes from, and not as much from the

1498
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:34,439
Speaker 1: rich as it does from the middle class. The middle

1499
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 1: class of Italy backed Mussolini for the same reason he

1500
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 1: meants stability. Right, Maybe they weren't all fascist. Most of

1501
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:44,719
Speaker 1: them weren't. Most of them had never really like, hadn't

1502
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 1: supported the fascist prior to him coming into power. But

1503
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:48,679
Speaker 1: now that he was in power, it means the communists

1504
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 1: aren't gonna met win. Means I'm not gonna lose my business.

1505
01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lose like whatever like that because I'm

1506
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 1: in the middle clad got shipped to lose, right, Yeah,

1507
01:22:56,120 --> 01:23:01,400
Speaker 1: that's what the middle classes, you're the ship to lose class. Um. Now, yeah,

1508
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 1: the middle class was in Italy, as it has been

1509
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:06,040
Speaker 1: in every country that's been taken over by fascists, the

1510
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:09,439
Speaker 1: chief base of fascist support. UM. And this is true

1511
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:12,719
Speaker 1: again everywhere fascism gains political power. In March of two

1512
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:15,200
Speaker 1: thousand sixteen, and NBC survey found that only about a

1513
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 1: third of Trump supporters in the primaries had a household

1514
01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 1: income at or below the national media and income of

1515
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:23,920
Speaker 1: fifty dollars a year UM and that stayed more or

1516
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:26,720
Speaker 1: less the same for the election. UM. And again you

1517
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:29,519
Speaker 1: can look at the same kind of things happened in Germany. Um.

1518
01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:33,400
Speaker 1: He said it was the same class that supported him. That. Yeah,

1519
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:37,200
Speaker 1: like it's important. And again another thing I love you

1520
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 1: just brought up. Brought this up too, because it's like,

1521
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:44,639
Speaker 1: when you're talking about somebody that lives below the poverty line,

1522
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:50,240
Speaker 1: you don't have time to be listening to whatever the

1523
01:23:50,640 --> 01:23:53,400
Speaker 1: politicians are saying, Like I'm trying to secure my next meal,

1524
01:23:54,160 --> 01:23:57,280
Speaker 1: So there's not a they don't. You don't have the

1525
01:23:57,400 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 1: luxury to go lobby and in canvas and do all

1526
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 1: the things that someone who has uh, you know, liquid capital,

1527
01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:10,800
Speaker 1: like leisure capital, be able to do. So that's the

1528
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:13,360
Speaker 1: middle class, you know what I'm saying, So like so yeah,

1529
01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:15,720
Speaker 1: it's just yeah, it's same thing like us critique in

1530
01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:18,120
Speaker 1: our own silo to be like, man, don't you can't

1531
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 1: just call this you can't just say it was all

1532
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:22,679
Speaker 1: these poor these poor was not him in power because

1533
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:26,240
Speaker 1: they hungry, they working, These poor people working, they got

1534
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:30,960
Speaker 1: time for audience anything. It's the fucking what the fascists

1535
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,200
Speaker 1: are saying to the middle class, to the comfortable. It

1536
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:35,679
Speaker 1: is saying like, you see that poor motherfucker who doesn't

1537
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:37,200
Speaker 1: have time to think about any of this because he's

1538
01:24:37,200 --> 01:24:39,519
Speaker 1: living hand the mouth. The communists are gonna make that

1539
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:43,960
Speaker 1: be you. You know, that's the that's the fucking pitch um.

1540
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:48,479
Speaker 1: And it works every time, or it works well enough

1541
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 1: that it becomes a problem every time. Maybe it's not

1542
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:54,400
Speaker 1: gonna work this time. We'll fucking see um because Trump

1543
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:57,680
Speaker 1: was leading middle class support in I don't know he

1544
01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:01,360
Speaker 1: really was. Man, Yeah, so that's good. We owe that too.

1545
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:04,080
Speaker 1: Behind the bastards, thank you. Yeah, I take total credit

1546
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 1: for Biden's victory, thank you. So um so yeah, Fascism

1547
01:25:09,320 --> 01:25:13,080
Speaker 1: generally cloaks itself as a working class movement of laborers

1548
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:15,640
Speaker 1: and hard men doing hard jobs. It's always the image, right,

1549
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 1: the imagery of like a guy working at a steel

1550
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:21,160
Speaker 1: miller some ship. But that's not where their support actually

1551
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:23,880
Speaker 1: comes from. The support of fascism comes from a lot

1552
01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:26,479
Speaker 1: of like the middle class and the a lot of

1553
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:28,280
Speaker 1: the affluent, not all of the affluent, because a lot

1554
01:25:28,320 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 1: of the very rich are more establishment people. They're not

1555
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:33,120
Speaker 1: gonna back. They'll back a fascist when they're in power

1556
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:35,320
Speaker 1: because again, they don't want to lose their ships needs

1557
01:25:35,320 --> 01:25:38,559
Speaker 1: to build, like yeah, they're they're up until it becomes

1558
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:40,559
Speaker 1: clear the fascists are gonna win there, you know, they're

1559
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:44,320
Speaker 1: gonna back whatever the order was previously. The middle class

1560
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 1: is scared and anxious and always being pushed from both directions,

1561
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:50,599
Speaker 1: so they're the ones who really will go with a fascist.

1562
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:54,120
Speaker 1: And the first person in history to really lay this

1563
01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:58,559
Speaker 1: out was Luigi Salvatorelli. Now he was an editorial writer

1564
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 1: for an anti fascist news paper named La Stampa. I'm

1565
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:04,160
Speaker 1: going to quote now from an article on the March

1566
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:07,760
Speaker 1: of Rome by scholar Emilio Gentile talking about Luigi Salvatarelli

1567
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 1: and how he came to this conclusion quote a year

1568
01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:14,680
Speaker 1: before the March on Rome, Salvatarelli understood that fascism was

1569
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:18,720
Speaker 1: a new revolutionary movement, and that it organized and mobilized

1570
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 1: a new social class, the petit bourgeoisie, equally hostile to

1571
01:26:23,280 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 1: the proletariat and the upper middle classes. Salvatarelli had labeled

1572
01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:32,040
Speaker 1: fascism reactionary Bolshevism, a danger today infinitely more real than

1573
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 1: communist Bolshevism. He had since that fascist ambitions went beyond

1574
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:39,560
Speaker 1: the bourgeoisie, anti proletarian reaction and the protection of the

1575
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:43,720
Speaker 1: middle class. The dictatorial ambition of fascism, Salvatarelli wrote in

1576
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:46,920
Speaker 1: December nineteen one, had already shown its face in parts

1577
01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:50,280
Speaker 1: of Italy, where the Fascist Party was imposing its dictatorial

1578
01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:53,480
Speaker 1: will by crushing opponents, to whom they denied any political

1579
01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:57,280
Speaker 1: or civil right, including the right to live. In July nine,

1580
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:01,000
Speaker 1: when not even Mussolini had thought of out taking over power,

1581
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:05,840
Speaker 1: Salvatarelli denounced the ongoing anti state attack perpetrated by Fascism

1582
01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 1: that was endangering the very existence of the Italian state

1583
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:12,559
Speaker 1: in order to establish a regime of violence throughout the country.

1584
01:27:12,760 --> 01:27:16,040
Speaker 1: Immediately after the march on Rome, Salvatarelli stated that the

1585
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:20,000
Speaker 1: fascist government was determined to establish a one sided dictatorship

1586
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:22,880
Speaker 1: because it did not want any political activity to be

1587
01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:27,559
Speaker 1: carried out outside of fascism. Salvatarelli saw in fascism, as

1588
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:31,120
Speaker 1: he wrote on November first, nineteen, the true and proper

1589
01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 1: characteristic of a political movement, of a party organized for

1590
01:27:34,680 --> 01:27:37,720
Speaker 1: its own ends of a specific social class and that

1591
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:40,559
Speaker 1: aimed at the conquest of power on its home was

1592
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:43,559
Speaker 1: determined to fling itself against the existing state in the

1593
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:51,360
Speaker 1: name of the presumed greater good of the nation. M hmm, Yeah,

1594
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:53,840
Speaker 1: it's a lot there, There's a lot there. He suggested

1595
01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:58,080
Speaker 1: something that I need the thought in that that the

1596
01:27:58,160 --> 01:28:02,800
Speaker 1: thought never crossed my mind that as there were so

1597
01:28:02,840 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 1: many big wires, it is hard for me to nail

1598
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:08,719
Speaker 1: down exactly where I heard it. But he almost suggested

1599
01:28:08,760 --> 01:28:13,799
Speaker 1: the possibility of a two party system in a fascist state.

1600
01:28:15,040 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 1: When he was like this fascism impresses it was almost

1601
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:22,479
Speaker 1: like he's it sounded redundant, where he was kind of

1602
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:27,519
Speaker 1: like this one party power fascist state, as if it's

1603
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 1: possible to have a two party system, because that at

1604
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:34,720
Speaker 1: the time. At the time, fascists were a part of

1605
01:28:34,760 --> 01:28:37,519
Speaker 1: the government, right, and a lot of people, even a

1606
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:40,920
Speaker 1: lot of like liberals, were like, well, they're not that dangerous.

1607
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:43,080
Speaker 1: They're just one other party. They have their view. This

1608
01:28:43,200 --> 01:28:44,599
Speaker 1: is that that's it's that old thing of like, well

1609
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 1: they have an opinion, and everybody gets to have their

1610
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:48,920
Speaker 1: appew and like we have to listen to them. They

1611
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:51,640
Speaker 1: have they get the freedom to speak their peace, And

1612
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 1: what Salvatrelli is saying is their peace. What they're saying

1613
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:57,880
Speaker 1: they believe is that only their opinion matters, and they'll

1614
01:28:57,960 --> 01:28:59,600
Speaker 1: kill you if you have a different one, got it.

1615
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:02,599
Speaker 1: So he let them in the government. So he's trying

1616
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:05,320
Speaker 1: to say, are y'all hearing what he's saying? Yeah? Yeah, really,

1617
01:29:05,320 --> 01:29:07,040
Speaker 1: did you hear what he just said? This is not

1618
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:10,960
Speaker 1: just said yeah, yeah, if we let them, they will

1619
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:13,840
Speaker 1: be the only party, right um. And he's and he's

1620
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:17,080
Speaker 1: also saying, like they are their strength comes from a class,

1621
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 1: right And because the a lot of the communist at

1622
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 1: the time had been like had written off the fascists

1623
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:25,439
Speaker 1: as any kind of real movement, and it even written

1624
01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:27,400
Speaker 1: off the March on Rome. We'll talk about that later

1625
01:29:27,439 --> 01:29:29,080
Speaker 1: in the series. We're gonna do a big episode at

1626
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:31,439
Speaker 1: the end on sort of what we can learn from

1627
01:29:31,439 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 1: all this. But there was a big failure among a

1628
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:36,680
Speaker 1: lot of people in the left and even anti fascists

1629
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:39,719
Speaker 1: to see fascists as the threat that they really were,

1630
01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:43,120
Speaker 1: because number one, they were so darn silly, but number

1631
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:45,400
Speaker 1: two like, well, you know, I'm looking at this from

1632
01:29:45,400 --> 01:29:48,000
Speaker 1: this Marxist analysis, and it tells me that all these

1633
01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:52,240
Speaker 1: classes like it forms it. I don't. I don't see

1634
01:29:52,280 --> 01:29:56,720
Speaker 1: this as a legitimate political movement that is speaking to

1635
01:29:56,880 --> 01:30:00,400
Speaker 1: a class that has a large body of the populace

1636
01:30:00,479 --> 01:30:03,439
Speaker 1: behind it. Okay, that was the peace I was missing

1637
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:05,840
Speaker 1: when you add the Marxists like glasses on there and

1638
01:30:05,880 --> 01:30:09,360
Speaker 1: you go, oh, yeah, well who's where where do they fit? Like,

1639
01:30:09,479 --> 01:30:11,720
Speaker 1: where's the cause? Can't be real because they don't fit him,

1640
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 1: none of these Yeah, And there's there's this attitude again

1641
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:16,639
Speaker 1: we'll talk about us later among a lot of Marxists

1642
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:18,640
Speaker 1: that like, well, fascism is just the inevitable in the

1643
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:21,120
Speaker 1: state of capitalism. And one of the things Salvatorelli saying,

1644
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:22,519
Speaker 1: and a lot of things will say, is like that's

1645
01:30:22,520 --> 01:30:25,640
Speaker 1: not exactly true. Fascism is pro capitalism a lot of

1646
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:28,000
Speaker 1: the time. It's also anti capitalism a decent chunk of

1647
01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:29,439
Speaker 1: the time. And that's how it gets a lot of

1648
01:30:29,479 --> 01:30:32,840
Speaker 1: people on board with it. Um it's it's it is

1649
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 1: speaking to a specific class in the country who feels

1650
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:41,639
Speaker 1: edged out by both sides, who feels oppressed by the rich,

1651
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:43,640
Speaker 1: and who feels that the left is coming for what

1652
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:46,960
Speaker 1: little they do have. Right, that still gets on board

1653
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:49,760
Speaker 1: with this ship. And you have to see that they

1654
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:52,280
Speaker 1: are looking out for their own that that that they

1655
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:56,439
Speaker 1: have legit like interests that they see being threatened like

1656
01:30:56,520 --> 01:30:58,839
Speaker 1: that there this is not just some sort of plot

1657
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:02,439
Speaker 1: by the bankers to take power for themselves. Right. The

1658
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:07,000
Speaker 1: fascists are speaking to legitimate um, you know, even if

1659
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:12,360
Speaker 1: they're wrong, legitimately felt exactly like those are legitimate. Yeah,

1660
01:31:12,600 --> 01:31:16,320
Speaker 1: those are legitimate emotions that that you are actually in

1661
01:31:16,400 --> 01:31:19,960
Speaker 1: your body experiencing, whether that's the reality like I say

1662
01:31:19,960 --> 01:31:23,760
Speaker 1: that about like, um, there's this this you know, this

1663
01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:26,479
Speaker 1: discussion about like well, you know, race is a social construct,

1664
01:31:26,479 --> 01:31:28,479
Speaker 1: therefore it's not real. Therefore racism is not real. And

1665
01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:31,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, yes, you're right, race is a social construct,

1666
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:37,040
Speaker 1: but what I'm experiencing in my body is real. It's

1667
01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:40,479
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So I love that. I

1668
01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:43,320
Speaker 1: love that because it's like, that's that's what you can't

1669
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:45,680
Speaker 1: dismiss about these people that are so riled up that

1670
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:48,519
Speaker 1: they would storm a capital. Is it's that what they're

1671
01:31:48,560 --> 01:31:51,320
Speaker 1: experiencing in their bodies exct. What you said is being

1672
01:31:52,120 --> 01:31:55,000
Speaker 1: is you're pressed on both sides, and yeah, you feel

1673
01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:57,479
Speaker 1: that way. At least you feel it. At least this

1674
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:00,840
Speaker 1: person is saying. These group of people are saying, I

1675
01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:03,519
Speaker 1: feel you, and I have an answer for you. Yeah,

1676
01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:05,120
Speaker 1: And I have an answer for you, and it's let's

1677
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:07,040
Speaker 1: kill the left and take over the government. You know.

1678
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:11,439
Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, easy, um, yeah, and that's why you

1679
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 1: know the six happened. Um So. Mussolini UH takes office

1680
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:21,719
Speaker 1: um two weeks after the March on Rome on November

1681
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:29,960
Speaker 1: UH November sixteenth, nineteen twenty two. He stands before the

1682
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:32,560
Speaker 1: Chamber of Deputies to present his new list of ministers.

1683
01:32:32,560 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 1: So he picks out all the people who are going

1684
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:37,120
Speaker 1: to run the government, all fascists, um. Now the new

1685
01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:42,040
Speaker 1: Prime Minister. Mussolini begins his speech to the Chamber of

1686
01:32:42,040 --> 01:32:45,360
Speaker 1: Deputies by attacking the nation's elected leaders, calling them old

1687
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:49,599
Speaker 1: and deaf and incompetent, and he even threatened them with violence, stating,

1688
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:52,800
Speaker 1: with three hundred thousand armed men determined to carry out

1689
01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:55,160
Speaker 1: my orders, I could have punished those who have vilified

1690
01:32:55,160 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 1: and tarnished fascism. I could make this deaf and gray

1691
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:01,639
Speaker 1: hall filled exclusively with fascists. I could, but I have not,

1692
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:07,759
Speaker 1: at least not for now. Shut up, Shut up, gramps,

1693
01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:10,080
Speaker 1: I'll slapped the ship out of you now. He promised

1694
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:12,639
Speaker 1: his as symboled deputies that his new fascist Italy would

1695
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:16,400
Speaker 1: ensure law and order, strengthen the military, and crushed the left.

1696
01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:19,080
Speaker 1: The next day, the Chamber of Deputies conducted a vote

1697
01:33:19,080 --> 01:33:21,880
Speaker 1: of confidence, which Mussolini won three hundred and six two

1698
01:33:22,040 --> 01:33:25,800
Speaker 1: hundred and sixteen. So again he three's like I can

1699
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:30,519
Speaker 1: fucking kill you if I want to, and they're like, yeah,

1700
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:35,400
Speaker 1: come up, I'll put it, Yes, I voting I for you,

1701
01:33:36,520 --> 01:33:39,519
Speaker 1: now your life. Yeah, I'm going to read a quote

1702
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:44,040
Speaker 1: from an article by Emilio Gentile about um anti fascism

1703
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:46,920
Speaker 1: in Italy and about the March on Rome. Quote. Benito

1704
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:49,880
Speaker 1: Mussolini could now claim that power was bestowed on him

1705
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:52,439
Speaker 1: by democratic means, even though it was claimed that many

1706
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:55,520
Speaker 1: votes were cast out of terror and intimidation from the fascists,

1707
01:33:55,560 --> 01:33:59,960
Speaker 1: which he had literally threatened the entire chamber. Bonito Benita

1708
01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 1: was the man of the hour. He was, in fact,

1709
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:05,360
Speaker 1: imminently a product of a particular crisis World War One

1710
01:34:05,560 --> 01:34:09,679
Speaker 1: and a special social class, the petty bourgeoisie. Mussolini's capture

1711
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 1: of power was classic. He was the right national leader

1712
01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:17,480
Speaker 1: at the right moment. By nineteen twenty three, Mussolini's consolidation

1713
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:20,439
Speaker 1: of power was complete. Italy was a fascist state, and

1714
01:34:20,479 --> 01:34:22,840
Speaker 1: any resistance to the regime from then on would take

1715
01:34:22,840 --> 01:34:26,679
Speaker 1: the form of mere insurgency. In total, between nineteen eighteen

1716
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:30,040
Speaker 1: and nineteen twenty three, Italian anti fascists killed some four

1717
01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:34,240
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty eight fascists. Meanwhile, Mussolini's Black Shirts murdered

1718
01:34:34,240 --> 01:34:37,160
Speaker 1: at least three thousand people in the same period. Most

1719
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:39,320
Speaker 1: of those people were not anti fascists. There were members

1720
01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:43,240
Speaker 1: of trade unions, journalists, local politicians, anyone who stood in

1721
01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:46,160
Speaker 1: the way between fascists and ultimate power. And again we've

1722
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:49,799
Speaker 1: talked a bit about why the Italian anti fascist didn't succeed,

1723
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:52,439
Speaker 1: and that's a longer conversation than we can have today.

1724
01:34:52,760 --> 01:34:55,200
Speaker 1: I think you're right that a lack of a a

1725
01:34:55,280 --> 01:34:59,160
Speaker 1: lack of something with momentum to oppose fascism, true momentum,

1726
01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:03,880
Speaker 1: was a part of it. Um A lack of UH

1727
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:06,120
Speaker 1: state support is another part of it. There's a thing

1728
01:35:06,280 --> 01:35:10,200
Speaker 1: that some folks on the kind of who are are UM,

1729
01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:13,400
Speaker 1: anti fascist and anarchist activists in particular, we'll talk about

1730
01:35:13,439 --> 01:35:15,720
Speaker 1: called the three way fight, which is the idea that

1731
01:35:16,040 --> 01:35:18,679
Speaker 1: we're not just fighting against the fascist, we're fighting against

1732
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:21,000
Speaker 1: the state, and we're fighting against the fascist because the

1733
01:35:21,040 --> 01:35:23,960
Speaker 1: state is also deeply harmful and deeply injurious to life

1734
01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:26,759
Speaker 1: and used. That was particularly very strongly felt by people

1735
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:31,920
Speaker 1: during the blm UH risings. Right like, we have these fascists,

1736
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:33,600
Speaker 1: these proud boys and stuff, coming in the street to

1737
01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:35,680
Speaker 1: do violence to us, we also have the cops doing it.

1738
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:38,360
Speaker 1: We're in a three way fight, right, very valid way

1739
01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:41,680
Speaker 1: to look at things. It's also an almost impossible situation

1740
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:43,840
Speaker 1: to win because the fascists aren't in a three way

1741
01:35:43,840 --> 01:35:47,440
Speaker 1: fight the fascist if they're smart, they're not dumb. Fascists

1742
01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:50,600
Speaker 1: sometimes are UM and maybe our fascists have taken a

1743
01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:54,680
Speaker 1: turn for the dumb. Let's hope. But the smart fascists

1744
01:35:55,080 --> 01:35:58,400
Speaker 1: get to power with some degree of legitimacy and legality

1745
01:35:58,600 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 1: and then use the state to crush the or enemies

1746
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:03,280
Speaker 1: because they don't want a three way fight. Right, that's

1747
01:36:03,320 --> 01:36:06,840
Speaker 1: a problem. Yeah, because yeah, because yeah, because the government

1748
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:09,679
Speaker 1: is just a weapon. It's not because the end goal.

1749
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:14,360
Speaker 1: It's just a weapon. Yeah. Wow, she'sh man, I need

1750
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:18,840
Speaker 1: a shower. Yeah, oh god, please tell me you're done. Yeah, No,

1751
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:25,599
Speaker 1: I'm done. That's the end of episode. Doc. It's like

1752
01:36:26,240 --> 01:36:32,160
Speaker 1: the it's just the party that feels like these people

1753
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:37,280
Speaker 1: give you this when you're trying to to stop, when

1754
01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:39,439
Speaker 1: you're the ones trying to stop an insurrection. It's like,

1755
01:36:39,479 --> 01:36:41,960
Speaker 1: these people give you no you have no safe aaiby,

1756
01:36:42,000 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 1: they give you no breaks like that. You can never

1757
01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:48,280
Speaker 1: stop and take a breath because they're gonna read that

1758
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:53,360
Speaker 1: as weakness. And then next thing, you know, somebody tying

1759
01:36:53,439 --> 01:36:55,679
Speaker 1: up Nancy Pelosi. And it's not that I'm a Nancy

1760
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:57,960
Speaker 1: Pelosi fan, it's just you shouldn't be able to tie

1761
01:36:58,040 --> 01:37:01,840
Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi get up, and how that should happen. That's

1762
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:04,320
Speaker 1: not as should happen. You feel me like, I just

1763
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:06,120
Speaker 1: this and it's not that I'm a fan of the

1764
01:37:06,200 --> 01:37:13,720
Speaker 1: US government. However, however, there are worse things to yes.

1765
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:17,200
Speaker 1: So it's just like there's yeah, like you said, like

1766
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:19,040
Speaker 1: you feel like you're in a three way fight, and

1767
01:37:19,120 --> 01:37:24,800
Speaker 1: my fight is especially as someone who would say organizationally

1768
01:37:25,040 --> 01:37:31,240
Speaker 1: and factually, my black life matters, right is that That's

1769
01:37:31,240 --> 01:37:34,519
Speaker 1: all I'm trying to say is NIGGD. Can I live?

1770
01:37:34,880 --> 01:37:38,519
Speaker 1: Like God damn it, man? Can I live? You know?

1771
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:43,760
Speaker 1: And so you you my goals. I feel like in

1772
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:47,200
Speaker 1: a lot of ways if it comes to like how

1773
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:51,240
Speaker 1: do I say this, Like, I'm not looking for as

1774
01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:54,080
Speaker 1: a as a black person, if you will, I'm not.

1775
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:57,960
Speaker 1: I'm just looking for my rights to be honored. That's

1776
01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:00,320
Speaker 1: all I'm trying to say. Just honor my right like

1777
01:38:00,439 --> 01:38:06,600
Speaker 1: I have. No there's no platform of a read construction

1778
01:38:06,640 --> 01:38:11,080
Speaker 1: of the government short of just stop sing killing, like,

1779
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:13,479
Speaker 1: let me be a citizen like you dog, like that's

1780
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:15,720
Speaker 1: all tries he Just let me a citizen like you, bro,

1781
01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:18,760
Speaker 1: That's That's all I'm saying. So so when you when

1782
01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:22,679
Speaker 1: you try to when you pit me against a fascist movement,

1783
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:26,640
Speaker 1: that's saying, well, no, our goal is to overthrow this

1784
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:29,400
Speaker 1: whole thing and be in charge, and no, you don't

1785
01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:33,280
Speaker 1: get rights somehow the government choosing you. It's like it's hard.

1786
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:35,880
Speaker 1: It's almost like all all I get to do now

1787
01:38:36,680 --> 01:38:39,800
Speaker 1: is I got homeboys that live in Atlanta, and what

1788
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:42,240
Speaker 1: they saying is they finda just grabbed a popcorn and

1789
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:45,720
Speaker 1: watch the civil war between these fascists and the and

1790
01:38:45,760 --> 01:38:48,519
Speaker 1: the police. Like I'm just because it's like I don't

1791
01:38:49,360 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 1: I want to be on the side of the government,

1792
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:52,760
Speaker 1: but the government on the side of me either, you

1793
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:54,800
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. So it's just you just in

1794
01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:57,679
Speaker 1: this weird predicament. But I know who I don't want

1795
01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:02,559
Speaker 1: to win. Yeah, this is where we get to the

1796
01:39:02,600 --> 01:39:06,960
Speaker 1: problem of the side opposing the fascists has done a

1797
01:39:06,960 --> 01:39:10,240
Speaker 1: lot of good, uh, And it is important to oppose fascists.

1798
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:14,360
Speaker 1: What's actually needed to beat them. Opposing in this one

1799
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:15,960
Speaker 1: thing and it can slow them down. What's needed to

1800
01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:19,960
Speaker 1: beat them is to provide something else that is not

1801
01:39:20,080 --> 01:39:24,000
Speaker 1: the state as it exists, because that's um, but that

1802
01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:27,840
Speaker 1: you can also get people on enough. People on board

1803
01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:31,360
Speaker 1: with the fascists don't have oxygen anymore. Right, the fascist

1804
01:39:31,560 --> 01:39:33,639
Speaker 1: it's like a fire right where you've got a bunch

1805
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:37,080
Speaker 1: of dry fucking brush and trees and ship and oxygen.

1806
01:39:37,160 --> 01:39:39,120
Speaker 1: And as long as you have those things, the fire

1807
01:39:39,160 --> 01:39:43,000
Speaker 1: is going to spread. And the way to counter that

1808
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:48,640
Speaker 1: is to fucking pour some fucking water on it. You know. Um,

1809
01:39:50,360 --> 01:39:52,960
Speaker 1: that's good analogy, man. You need to reduce the area

1810
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:55,639
Speaker 1: in which it can spread, and it's human terrain, right,

1811
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:58,040
Speaker 1: So by the only way to reduce the human terrain

1812
01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:02,760
Speaker 1: the ship can spread in is to give people something else. Yes, yes,

1813
01:40:02,760 --> 01:40:05,040
Speaker 1: because they don't have anything right. Yes, that's what I

1814
01:40:05,080 --> 01:40:06,680
Speaker 1: was going back to when you was asking me, like,

1815
01:40:06,720 --> 01:40:09,599
Speaker 1: why did this fails? Like they didn't give them nothing else. Yeah,

1816
01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 1: it just said don't do this. Well, then what do

1817
01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:15,120
Speaker 1: we do because we got now ain't working? Yes, So

1818
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:17,960
Speaker 1: it's either the government that led us into World War

1819
01:40:18,040 --> 01:40:21,880
Speaker 1: One or some people who are saying we should do

1820
01:40:21,960 --> 01:40:23,920
Speaker 1: what they're doing in Russia right now. And that doesn't

1821
01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:28,439
Speaker 1: look great. Um, And you know, most of the liberals

1822
01:40:28,520 --> 01:40:30,240
Speaker 1: are like on the side of like, well, we'll just

1823
01:40:30,280 --> 01:40:32,400
Speaker 1: we'll just keep tweaking the system that got us into

1824
01:40:32,439 --> 01:40:34,559
Speaker 1: World War One, and a lot of people are like

1825
01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:40,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem good. Yeah, I need I needed, I

1826
01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:43,240
Speaker 1: need an option, deed, Jake, Yeah, I'm poor, my government,

1827
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:47,400
Speaker 1: I have no hope for the future. So Jake, this

1828
01:40:47,439 --> 01:40:50,160
Speaker 1: guy is saying it'll be different. Dr Jacob, let's see

1829
01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:54,559
Speaker 1: if it's different. Yes, exactly. Uh, It's like it's like

1830
01:40:54,600 --> 01:40:57,680
Speaker 1: when you're watching a basketball game and it's your two

1831
01:40:57,760 --> 01:40:59,880
Speaker 1: least favorite teams playing and you want both of them

1832
01:40:59,880 --> 01:41:02,280
Speaker 1: to lose, but there isn't a way for one of them,

1833
01:41:02,360 --> 01:41:05,880
Speaker 1: not like somebody has to win, so that there has

1834
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:07,960
Speaker 1: to be some sort of interference that makes it so

1835
01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:11,280
Speaker 1: that the game can't even happen. Otherwise you're going to

1836
01:41:11,439 --> 01:41:13,960
Speaker 1: just pick your your Joe Biden. You get stuck with

1837
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:16,599
Speaker 1: Joe Biden, so you guys, otherwise you get Joe Biden.

1838
01:41:17,400 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 1: Nobody wants that either, you know. That's man, That's what

1839
01:41:22,120 --> 01:41:26,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, look like, do do not say I'm glad

1840
01:41:26,280 --> 01:41:29,559
Speaker 1: nobody has suggested that, Like Joe Biden is just a

1841
01:41:29,640 --> 01:41:33,800
Speaker 1: left wing of Trump to some people know, he is

1842
01:41:33,800 --> 01:41:40,360
Speaker 1: a consolation pride of the consolation price we settle for

1843
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:42,959
Speaker 1: Joe Biden, Like this thing ain't to come in Messiah.

1844
01:41:43,080 --> 01:41:50,439
Speaker 1: He he to Disciple bartholomewle at best conscious even he's

1845
01:41:50,439 --> 01:41:57,639
Speaker 1: not even Peter John Like, so that's a deep cut

1846
01:41:57,680 --> 01:42:03,280
Speaker 1: Boyle's not even Paul because like you, Timothy, you ain't

1847
01:42:03,280 --> 01:42:06,200
Speaker 1: even write no book in the New test I'm cheering

1848
01:42:06,280 --> 01:42:09,639
Speaker 1: up in my whole face, is right, this is so funny.

1849
01:42:11,880 --> 01:42:13,800
Speaker 1: That's a that's a that's a that's a that's an

1850
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:17,479
Speaker 1: evangelical joke. So that's the first part of this behind

1851
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:23,519
Speaker 1: the direction part motherfucking one. Prop Where can people follow you?

1852
01:42:24,040 --> 01:42:26,760
Speaker 1: Oh Lord, please follow me at prop hip hop on

1853
01:42:26,880 --> 01:42:30,040
Speaker 1: all them things? Um yeah, all the all of the

1854
01:42:30,120 --> 01:42:33,519
Speaker 1: twitters and instagrams. Um, you could my website prop dot

1855
01:42:33,560 --> 01:42:37,600
Speaker 1: com backslize coffee. Yeah, that is my website and we

1856
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:42,400
Speaker 1: do coffee stuff there. Um. Got some pods. Uh, politics

1857
01:42:42,479 --> 01:42:47,479
Speaker 1: were prop which is um political analysis just from like,

1858
01:42:48,479 --> 01:42:51,960
Speaker 1: you know, if you survived eighth grade, you could you

1859
01:42:52,040 --> 01:42:55,840
Speaker 1: understand your politics? You know, I just kind of giving

1860
01:42:55,880 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 1: you political analysis. Yeah. That's that's that's my that's my

1861
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:06,120
Speaker 1: thangs and uh, well we'll be back soon, Robert, We

1862
01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:08,519
Speaker 1: will be back soon. We'll be back to talk about

1863
01:43:08,640 --> 01:43:12,040
Speaker 1: the Munich beer Hall pusch um next week, um, and

1864
01:43:12,080 --> 01:43:14,439
Speaker 1: then we'll talk about some other ship and then we're

1865
01:43:14,439 --> 01:43:18,800
Speaker 1: going to end this talking in broad about why fascists

1866
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:22,120
Speaker 1: win when they win, And why fascists lose when they lose.

1867
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:29,479
Speaker 1: Your gift to the world, Robert h like like like socks,

1868
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 1: a nice pair of socks. Robert doesn't know how to

1869
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:37,280
Speaker 1: take compliments as you can. I'm just going to run

1870
01:43:37,320 --> 01:43:42,680
Speaker 1: away from my computer now, goodbye. That's the episode.