WEBVTT - The 36-Year Cancer Fight That Led To A Nobel Prize 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.720 Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm Pim Fox. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:11.560 Along with my co host Lisa Abramowitz. Each day we 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:15.120 bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:17.840 you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.720 or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:30.760 Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. We 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:35.000 are broadcasting from the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studios and it 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:39.960 is a pleasure to welcome the most recent recipient of 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:46.000 the Nobel Prize in Medicine. James Patrick Allison, perhaps better 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.680 known as Dr Jim Allison, joins us here in our 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:52.239 eleven Trio studios. Dr Allison, thank you very much for 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:57.040 being here and congratulations on your Nobel Prize. And I'm 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.000 wondering if you could just describe before you tell us 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.640 about how you play the harmonica, and you know you've 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.039 got a musical side that I think it's pretty interesting. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.760 When did you learn that you had won the Nobel 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:16.720 Prize along with your counterpart in Japan? Yesterday morning? My 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:21.200 son called me about five thirty and so, Dad, you 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:24.160 did it, you know, And and uh, I thought, what 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.039 what I was just waking up, you know. And then 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.119 uh then a call came in from Sweden after that 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.680 and uh, you know, confirming it. So it's rather than 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:39.559 nice that my son was first though. Tell me, uh, well, 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:41.959 congratulations again, Dr Alison. Can you just give us a 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:46.080 sense of how hard it was to do the research 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.160 and persevere with it when a lot of people thought 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:52.400 that your field of immuno oncology was voodoo science. Yeah 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:55.400 it was. It was you know, voodoo or snake oil 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.840 or various terms were used. You know, I just didn't 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:02.240 pay much attention to that was just background noise. I 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.400 focused on really understanding mechanisms of how the immune system 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.840 worked until I had the details down and could just 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:12.600 knew exactly what I thought, at least exactly what we 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:15.760 needed to do. So what is this amano oncology. Well, 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.280 it's it's using your immune system, either targeting it or 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:24.000 in my case, just unleashing it to attack cancer cells. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.320 Because you've got these cells called T cells that go 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.200 all around your body and they're kind of the soldiers 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.280 of the immune system and they recognize things that ought 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:33.800 not to be their virus infected cells or cancer cells 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:38.920 or whatever, recognize them Um, it's a wonderfully complex and 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.560 interesting process that I've been working on since nine two, 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:47.200 and um, you know, it's it's just a beautiful thing, 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.880 and we finally learned how to manipulate it, to direct 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:55.560 it to ourselves to actually attack cancer. Dr Allison as 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.640 the professor and also Chair of Immunology and Executive Director 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:07.280 of Immunotherapy at the MD Anderson Cancer Center, can you, uh, 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:13.600 maybe describe how your discovery can not only apply to 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.000 specific cancers that people may have, but for the whole 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:23.160 understanding of how to fight cancer when it's diagnosed. Yes, well, well, 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:27.840 this this approach is radically different from most approaches to 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.600 cancer theory, which target the cancer cell. This has the 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.239 therapy itself has nothing to do with the cancer cell 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.640 at all. It has to do with manipulating the immune 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:40.520 system just generally, so potentially it could work against any 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.080 kind of cancer, at least when I conceived of this 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.400 in the mid nineties, that was the idea. Since you're 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.520 not treating cancer, you're treating the immune system, it could 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.160 work against anything, and it turned out that that was 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.839 not quite right. But but it works very well well 0:03:55.880 --> 0:04:00.360 against melanoma, for example, Patients that just get a a 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.120 single round of treatment with with the drug I developed, 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.560 and we're live ten years. I mean they're basically cured. 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.640 Their live ten years after therapy and when added to 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.920 a second drug that that Hanjo played a major role 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:18.120 in discovering. The response rates about sixty and we don't 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.600 know how long they're going. But it's been approved by 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.640 the FDA now not only for melanoma, but for lung cancer, 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:30.160 kidney cancer, bladder cancer, Hodgkinson and Foma, had neck cancer, 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:35.320 and the list goes on and on, merken cell cancering, um, 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.000 you know, so it is broadly applicable. But unfortunately, what 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.440 we've learned in the last few years since these approval 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.359 started coming in is there are cancers that don't response. 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:48.640 There's a clear blastoma and pancreatic cancer, and the response 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:53.680 rates and other cancers are um. You know, it's not everybody. 0:04:53.720 --> 0:05:00.000 It's somewhere or in combinations up to our job now 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.520 hours to get that up as close to a percent 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.640 as we can and in as many kinds of cancer. 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.560 And that's the goal of the minotherapy platform and INMDI 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:14.320 Anderson that that run together with Dr pad biny Sharma, 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:20.840 who's an oncologist that yes, yes, Dr Allison, I'm wondering, 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.279 You've been working on this particular type of cancer treatment 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.520 for nearly four decades, and over that time, I'm wondering, 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.479 do you feel like we are much closer to a 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.839 fundamental breakthrough to make cancer less fatal? Yes, I think 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:36.640 we're are, and i think we're already there in some 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.320 kinds of cancer. As I said, six melanoma patients. When 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:44.080 we started this work, the median survival after diagnosis of 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.560 metastatic melanoma was eleven months. It was basically a death sentence, 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.040 and there were no drugs that had ever had any 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:53.400 impact on that at all until we came along. And now, 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.480 like I said, twenty percent of people alive ten years 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.680 after treatment, and you know even more when you're using combinations. 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:04.719 So uh, but there's you know, so this is a 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.160 fundamental shift and how to treat cancer. Again, you don't 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.000 treat the cancer, You treat the immune system and unleash 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.840 it to go after the cancer on its own. And 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.880 so this is going to be I would predict, not 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:21.120 not replace chemotherapy and radiation and things like that, but together. 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.360 That's the unique thing about immunotherapy is that it can 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.760 be used together with these other kinds of therapy to 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:32.240 improve their their efficacy. And the one thing that one 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.120 key thing that the immune therapy is offered that the 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.120 others don't is that once you've got a T cell, 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:39.839 you've got it for the rest of your life. Just 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:43.760 real quick, Which companies you're working on to develop actual applications? 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.640 A lot several companies, but key and helping us developers 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.320 a little company called Meta Acts. It's since been by 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.320 Bristol Myers squib so we do a lot of work 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.240 with them, but we also work with a number of 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:02.200 other companies. Dr jam Melissa, congratulations, Thank you so much 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.039 for joining us. Truly a pleasure to speak with you 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:06.800 and thank you for what you do. A lot of 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.720 people I know are very grateful. Dr Jim Allison, Professor 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.920 in Chair of Immunology at the MD Anderson Cancer Center 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:18.680 in Houston, also the winner of the Nobel Prize for Medicine, 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.560 Thank you so much and really an inspiration with respect 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.600 the perseverance for nearly four decades on something that a 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.280 lot of people dismissed. Really a pleasure having you here. 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:42.320 We are broadcasting from the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studios. This 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.760 is the time we talk about trade. And indeed, after 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:51.080 yesterday's public airing of the details of the U S 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:55.000 m C A much more and much more. Yes, you 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:59.440 have new concessions for US farmers, new rules for digital commerce, 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.320 and rules for US content for automobiles. Here to help 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.800 us understand the trade agreement is Duncan Would, director of 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.440 the Mexico Institute at the Wilson Center, and he joins 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:12.800 us now from Washington. Do you see Duncan Wood, thank 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.960 you very much for being with us. What can you 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:19.080 tell us about the details of this agreement and what 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.920 do you believe the ramifications of the agreement will be 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.640 for all three of the economies Mexico, the United States, 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:30.200 and Canada. Well, let's say, yeah, that's a pretty big question, 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.160 considering the economy is to combine, their trade is more 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.040 than fort of one point four billion trillion dollars UM. 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.760 But what I can say is that I was happy 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.280 to see a continuation of general principles of NaSTA UM 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.960 in this new agreement. I think that we have actually 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.439 ensured that the free trade environment in North America will 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.120 continue pretty much across the board. UM. There are some 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:57.760 areas where the Trump administration was successful in in winning 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.920 concessions from his partners. Now to say that, obviously, you know, 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.640 we talked a lot about the dairy industry in Canada, 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.040 but we've also talked about the weakening of Chapter eleven 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:11.920 investor they dispute mechanisms UM and you know, and also 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.000 we've we've seen you know, this insistence on higher regional 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.440 content in the auto sector as well as um A 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.839 content a minimum content level of forty percent coming from 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.040 factories where works makes sixteen an hour or more. So, 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.960 you know, I think that perhaps the most interesting element 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.760 of all of this is to say that business is 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.880 going to accept it. Business is going to celebrate the 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:39.079 fact that they now have legal certainty that investments can 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.160 continue in the region, and they're going to work with 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.439 the rules of the of the new agreement to try 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.319 to deepen the integration that we've already seen in North America. 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.240 So I take it as a positive step forward. It's 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.560 far from perfect as an agreement, but which free trade 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.600 agreement is um and you know, this is one thing 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:58.640 that I think that you know, as we read be 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.520 the text and great. So we're finding that despite all 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.360 of the little irritance that are still there, um, and 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:09.080 some precedents that have been set which are uncomfortable for 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.760 free traders. It's a step in the right direction, all right. 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.959 One thing that I'm struggling with is does this agreement 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:19.480 move more toward freer trade with fewer barriers or more 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.240 towards sort of more protectionist approach. And I'm thinking in 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.839 particular the sixteen dollars an hour provision, which will effectively 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.439 either forced Mexico to dramatically increase pay or else produce 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:33.200 things in the US more. Yeah. I mean that you've 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:38.880 identified one of the clearest examples of a less free 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.439 trade approach. UM. And uh, you know, I think that 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:44.280 that's that's the thing that will stand out for for 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.080 a lot of people. UM. We also have to recognize 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.200 that the you know, the this new agreement doesn't resolve 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.199 the problems over Section to Study two on aluminum feel. Um, 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:59.120 it doesn't really resolve the dispute over the potential application 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.080 of Section two study to on or the automobile sector. 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:06.160 Because whilst Canada and Mexico have carved out UM an 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:08.600 exemption from that up to two points six million vehicles 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.760 a year UM, that they're still going to be subject 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.360 to it, which you know goes against the principles of 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.199 free trade. However, you know, on the positive side, I 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.199 would say this, what we've seen is we've seen a 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.319 modernization of a of an agreement that you know, is 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.760 more than two decades old, that was considered to be 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.640 an old Lady of free trade agreement. We've included new 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.840 issues so that the new agreement applies to areas of 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.680 digital trade, intellectual property. You know, there's some interesting work 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.640 there on on financial services, and so these are I mean, 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.640 it looks much more like a twenty first century free 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.439 trade agreement than the NAFTA did, and I would say 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.480 that that extends the reach of free trade in the 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.080 North American region. Can this agreement or parts of this 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:57.240 agreement be used in future negotiations with China? I think 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.240 that's certainly. Um. What's what's behind a lot of the year, 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.600 at least some of the language that's been there, um. 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.839 I mean, the most obvious stand out here is that 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:09.000 is the question of currency manipulation. There was no reason 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:13.120 to include currency manipulation provisions in a NAFTA. Biggest neither 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.880 Canada nor Mexico engage in that kind of behavior. But 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.720 clearly the United States wanted to establish a precedent whereby 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:24.080 they could take this language to any potential um future 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.320 free tech trade deal. And you know, the Japanese have 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.200 already um signals that they're nervous about that, they know 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.719 that that's coming to their for their their negotiations with 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.560 the United States. And of course this set the president 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.360 for China in particular, Dungan, I'm struck by the fact 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.800 that you think that disagreement will be good for US 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.200 energy companies. Can you explain? Yeah, I think that it 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.960 is that it's good for US energy companies because, first 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:51.199 of all, Mexico was excluded from the original provisions energy 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.720 provisions of the NAFTA UM and you know it, it's 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:59.040 specifically required that it was excluded from the free trade 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.640 of of of oil and gas because Mexico's system at 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.000 the time was a closed system UM. Since two thousands thirteen, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.200 Mexico has opened up its oil and gas sector. Mexico 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:15.720 now has a market oriented energy sector and that has 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.800 been under threat with the With the new government's coming 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.120 into power in December in Mexico, the government of Andersman, 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.360 while lops Overdorf, who was opposed to private investment in 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:29.280 the oil and gas sector. But what this treaty ensures 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.640 is two things. One that there will continue to be 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.839 the free trade in molecules and electrons across the North 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:39.920 American space. And to that Chapter eleven um provisions in 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:44.600 in other words, investor states dispute settlement mechanisms will apply 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.360 continue to apply to the energy sector, in particular to 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.640 oil and gas. And so that gives a lot of 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.960 the investors American companies that are invested in Mexico, that 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.600 gives them legal certainty which they wouldn't have had otherwise. 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:57.880 Duncan Wood, thank you so much for joining us and 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.920 for analyzing uh the agreement to in such a short 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.120 period of time to give us such a deep insight. 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.640 Duncan Wood is director of the Mexico Institute at the 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:19.560 Wilson Center in Washington, d C. The topic now is 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.400 student loans and helping us here to understand this is 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.320 Brendan Coughlin. He is the president of consumer Lending at 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.680 Citizens Bank. Brendon, thanks very much for coming in. Maybe 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:31.760 just set this stage, because you know, I keep hearing 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.640 a lot of numbers like one and a half trillion 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:40.160 dollars in student loan debt. But the student loan market 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:45.520 includes private debt, it also includes debt that in many 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.600 cases is guaranteed by the federal government. Can you explain 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.120 the marketplace and what we're facing. Yeah, absolutely, and thanks 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.600 for having me here today for what's I think one 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.720 of the country's biggest challenges. The student loan um that 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.640 did just cross one point five trillion. It's growing at 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.920 about twice the pace of inflation, and projections put it 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.440 out at three trillion um in in just another ten years. 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.200 So just a very alarming situation that we're dealing with 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:12.920 here that the country is going to be living with 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.840 for a long time. You are right, when you get 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.160 a new loan to go first to go to school, 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.400 about of the time that that loan is issued by 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.800 the federal government through a variety of programs, and about 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.600 seven percent of the time it's issued by a bank 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.720 which has full underwriting UH and an assessment of your 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.560 ability to repay, versus the federal government, which which has 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.240 very very limited underwriting. So you just put out a 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.440 survey where you talked to a number of younger individuals 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.160 in America about their student debt loads. Regret is sort 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.960 of laced into every result of this survey, just to 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.360 regret that they incurred so much debt. I'm just wondering, 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.200 apart from going over some of the details of the 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:57.640 actual survey, what could they have done to ameliorate some 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.440 of these uh regrets. Yeah, you know, this is it's 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.440 it's highly emotional when when you're entering school and the 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.000 discussion between parents and children often is not detailed enough, 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.880 and folks don't understand what they're truly signing up for, 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.520 and they're not having the hard conversation of return on investment. 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.120 And as you make your choices, whether it's which school 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:18.160 or how much you're gonna pay, or how to pay 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.400 for it, and really all of it comes back to 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.520 that doing your homework and being more prepared so you 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.920 make these decisions eyes wide open um going into school. 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:30.400 How many smaller or I guess for profit universities do 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.760 you think would shutter if people did more of this 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.280 sort of risk reward but benefit analysis. Yeah, there's certainly 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.120 a handful of decent for profit schools, but but by 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.840 and large, many of them would be in real, real challenge. 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.240 If you looked at the return on investment on some 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.240 of these, and and did an assessment of the tuition 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.840 you'd pay versus the um the salary, and the graduation 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:54.080 rates coming out. And keep in mind the graduation rate 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.120 across the entire country, including four year public and private institutions, 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.440 is right around fifty. So most of our issue in 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:05.440 the country is that these kids are not matriculating to graduation. UM. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:07.440 When you do get to graduation, you have a much 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.520 higher success rate of um of of of getting a 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.520 good job, but it's particularly exacerbated in the for profit sector. 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.520 For sure. There was a report there is a report 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:21.359 from the Brookings Institute about student loans, and one of 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:27.639 their conclusions is that by three forty percent of borrowers 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:32.160 made default on their student loans. We're talking about five 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:37.320 hundred and sixty billion dollars in unpaid debt. Does that 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.680 make sense to you? Well, so, the data, as as 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.000 we kicked off here, with most of the debt being 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.960 issued by the federal government, the data is not um 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.320 readily publicly available UM to digest in a way that 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.480 makes that easily answerable. But that does seem consistent with 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.320 all the information I've heard UM and and in the 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.520 federal portfolios, customers are considered performing even if they're on 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.800 a um A plan to repay, which could be as 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:05.679 little as a five dollar a month payment. So if 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:07.919 you owe seven hundred and you're paying five dollars a 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:12.720 month from from a statistical perspective, that's not considered um 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.280 in default. But you know, that's pretty darn close to 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.240 default in my book. So we've got a lot of 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.640 customers out there in the marketplace and the federal program 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.840 that are not paying back. You know, if you juxtapose 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.520 that against the banks, our default rate is about two 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.960 percent as a as an industry, Citizens is at below 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.960 one percent. So it's a very very stark difference between 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:33.159 bank loans and government loans. All right, I want to 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.359 get this more clear. So Brendan, you're the president of 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.520 Consumer Letting It Citizens Bank. We know that student loans 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.280 have become an increasing problem as its surges in the 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.040 total outstanding and people talk about how to drag on 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.160 the economy. Basically, these young people have so much debt 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.120 they can't save anything, and they can't spend on a house, 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.800 and they're they're they're postponing their family formations and not 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.600 having kids because they're really expensive. Um. One thing that 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:59.359 I'm wondering from you, how does a private organization play 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.200 in this space ace and profit from this space at 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.919 a time when there is such this this huge weight 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.680 out there that is sort of weighing down everything. Yeah. Look, 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.360 we we can't control the entire environment. Obviously. The biggest 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:14.320 issue here is the ever increasing tuition costs across the country, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.560 and it's going faster than inflation. So the only place 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:19.280 that families are finding their way to pay for it 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.840 is either you know, postponing retirement or or taking out debt. 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:25.800 What we can do is is inside of the framework 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:27.280 of a bank. We've done a couple of things, so 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:29.360 we put a more affordable option out there than most 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.320 of the government programs, at least the ones that aren't subsidized. 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:34.679 So when you go to school, we will give you 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:36.879 a rate that's better, and we will underwrite you to 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.639 make sure we think you have a reasonably good chance 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:41.480 to pay the bank back, which is good for us 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.160 in the student hold on second, I want to want 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.280 to press you on that. So in other words, you decide, 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.440 is this person competent? Are they studying something that's actually 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:50.520 going to give them some leg up when they go 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.760 try to apply for a job. Are those some of 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:54.680 the things that you look at. We don't. We don't 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.600 look at their their intended degree. Um, there's a lot 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.760 of risk of redlining and unfair treatment on things like that. 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.479 But we do look at their income. Their parents are 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.320 typically co signing, which is forcing this conversation and the 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:09.760 family and the household around is this the right decision 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:11.240 for us? We both have some skin in the game. 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.119 Let's make sure so all those things lead to a 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.840 better and more informed decision, which dramatically improves the ability 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:19.359 to repay for the student at the end of it. 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.199 We've also introduced a refinance program when you come out 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.200 of school, which uh most folks surprisingly don't even know 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.760 about yet, um and spending the market for five or 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:29.840 six years. When you get out of school, if you 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.040 get a job, the first thing you should do is 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.000 look to trade in your old student loans because you 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:37.159 got underwritten when you're eighteen, living with your parents with 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.000 no credit score, and now you're gainfully employed, you've built 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:41.960 some credit and hopefully you're on the way to moving 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.359 out for mom and dad. Right, your profile could not 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.119 be more different than when you got that loan, and 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.639 we've been saving students about two and fifty dollars a 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.040 month on their student loan debt, which gets back to 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:56.119 your question around accelerating your ability to buy a home, household, formation, 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.879 getting married, having kids. Now, that refinancing that you just 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:01.960 spoke about, and I give you about twenty seconds here, 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:06.760 that refinancing could be for private student debt, but it 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:11.480 can also be for public for federal student debt. Right. 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.800 That's that's exactly correct. Consumers make no distinction between the two, 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.920 and um, we we will refinance either one of them 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:21.240 is in most of the industry that's in this business 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:23.200 will as well. You know, one of the stats the 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:26.399 survey put out was about sixty percent of students have 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.159 buyer's remorse on their decisions. So either they wish they 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.680 went to a less expensive school or in some cases 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:33.840 they wish they didn't go to school at all. So 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:35.760 once you've made that decision, it is what it is, 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.679 but you can take control of your finances, refinance it 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.200 and make it more affordable for you. Brendan Coughlin, thank 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.040 you so much for being here. Brendan Coughland is President 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:47.520 of Consumer deposits and lending for Citizens Bank in Providence, 0:21:47.600 --> 0:22:01.600 Rode Island. The leader of Italy's Five Star movement, Luigi 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.760 de Mayo, has warned that Italy's government will not retreat 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:11.000 quote a millimeter from its spending plans amid pressures from 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.679 the European Union. Here to tell us more is Alberto Gallo, 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:20.160 partner portfolio manager for Algebras Macro Credit fund at Algebras, 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.560 and he's also a Bloomberg opinion column this and he 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:27.760 joins us, Now, Alberto, what if you make of Mr 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:34.600 Demio's statement? It looks a lot like the altitude the 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:38.320 type of posture that the former finance minister in Greece, 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:45.280 you know, Mr Barro Farkas had versus Europe, so very confrontational. Um. 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:50.080 And it is the opposite to his coalition partner Saldini 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:52.919 from the Northern League. So you have a government with 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:56.399 two parties. One has been voted in the south of 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.000 the country. Um. The other one has been voted in 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:02.800 the north, which is reached sure and more industrial. Um. 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.400